Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14625

1 Monday, 26 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 On this Monday, the 26th of February, 2007, I'd like to welcome

11 all those in the courtroom. Mr. Scott and his lady colleagues, the

12 Defence counsel, the accused who are sitting a long way away today because

13 we're in a different courtroom.

14 Today we have a witness who is going to take up the whole week.

15 As far as the examination-in-chief is concerned, we gave six hours to the

16 Prosecution, so the Prosecution will have six hours to examine the

17 witness. And as far as the Defence teams are concerned, in view of the

18 fact that this witness testimony will concern some teams more than others,

19 Mr. Pusic will have one hour, 30 minutes; Mr. Coric will have one hour and

20 30 minutes as well; Mr. Stojic will also have an hour and 30 minutes;

21 Mr. Prlic will have 45 minutes; and Mr. Praljak will have 45 minutes as

22 well; and Mr. Petkovic will have 45 minutes too. Of course, it is up to

23 you whether you wish to give your time to someone else or whether you're

24 going to use that time up yourselves.

25 In order to avoid any misunderstanding, Mr. Pusic will have one

Page 14626

1 hour and 30 minutes. Mr. Coric will have one hour and 30 minutes, and

2 Mr. Stojic will also have one hour and 30 minutes, because on the

3 transcript it doesn't say hour, one hour.

4 Now, I understood it that the Defence would like the floor before

5 the witness is shown in, but before they say what they have to say and

6 before I give the floor to Mr. Karnavas, I would like to say something.

7 I was looking at the time used by both parties, and I have noted

8 that with more than 500 hours of sitting that we had there was more than

9 100 hours of procedural issues discussed, which means more than 20 per

10 cent of the overall Court time is taken up with procedural matters.

11 Now, since we're trying to regulate procedural matters with

12 written motions and with respect to requests for protective measures also

13 in writing and evidence and exhibits in writing, notwithstanding all that

14 we're still using up 100 of the 500 hours on procedural matters. I would

15 prefer us to speak of fundamental matters rather than procedural matters.

16 Of course, procedural matters always seem to be the same. So we would

17 rather hear from the Defence and other parties about fundamental matters,

18 because the procedural matters crop up again and again.

19 Now, sometimes I am a little alarmed when I realise that we're

20 wasting a lot of time raising objections, intervening, which, from my

21 point of view, are of no interest. So the 100 hours that we have devoted

22 to procedural matters could have been better used elsewhere dealing with

23 fundamental issues, and this would have been more interesting all round,

24 and probably for the Defence as well.

25 Now I'm sure we're still going to discuss procedural matters. Who

Page 14627

1 wants to take the floor? Mr. Karnavas, did you want to?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe this is a

3 fundamental matter as opposed to a procedural matter, and in fact we will

4 only have to deal with it once even though it may apply to many witnesses

5 that are to come.

6 The witness that we are about to hear for the following four days

7 was interviewed as a suspect. There are all sorts of documents that the

8 Prosecution intends to introduce that bear the gentleman's signature. He

9 was questioned extensively. In fact, if you do have his -- his statement,

10 I have it right here, you can see it's about three or four inches thick,

11 and we believe that it would be -- it's in the interest of justice and in

12 the gentleman's interest if he was fully informed, one, that because he

13 was viewed as a suspect at the time, and if you look at the content of the

14 interview and the documents which bear his name that -- that he is

15 exposed. The Prosecution in this case cannot immunise him. Yes, we have

16 a completion strategy. Yes, the Security Council does not want this

17 Tribunal to go on any further with any more cases, but you do have a

18 Tribunal that is functioning in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the state court. In

19 my previous case, witnesses that appeared for the Defence that were

20 suspects are now defendants, accused, incarcerated as they are in the

21 trial phase, and so we think that hence forward any of these so-called

22 insiders, as they've been coined, who are suspects should be fully advised

23 that their testimony here, and I think that it must be -- they must be

24 told that the transcripts will be taken by this Prosecutor and given to

25 the Prosecutor in Bosnia when so required.

Page 14628

1 The other thing is - this is for future purposes - this particular

2 gentleman was interviewed by Ms. Egels. Now, I notice that she won't be

3 taking the witness, I take it, but in the future if we do come -- come up

4 with a situation where a Prosecutor was involved in questioning the

5 witness, that Prosecutor essentially also becomes a potential witness

6 himself, and there would be a conflict of interest. So we think that this

7 is something that may require the Court's consideration. But since that's

8 not the case today, then we don't have to deal with this issue, but it's

9 something you may want to give some thought to. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

11 You spent three minutes, but since you're a professional and since I am

12 also a professional, that question did not escape me, and here I have the

13 article of the Rules of Procedure that I wanted to read. So I anticipated

14 this problem, and rest assured that the matter quite certainly didn't

15 escape me.

16 Now, on to the next point with respect to Ms. Egels's

17 participation and the interview with the "suspect." Now, we haven't

18 deliberated this point, but it perhaps would be interesting to hear the

19 view of Mr. Scott in the matter.

20 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon, Your Honours, Mr. President, Judges.

21 We couldn't disagree more with Mr. Karnavas's position. I guess that

22 won't be the first or last time, but it is standard practice in this

23 institution, has been for the last ten years, that suspect interviews are

24 conducted. They often -- they often involve lawyers involved with the

25 trial team. There are always -- there is always at least one investigator

Page 14629

1 in the room. These are video recorded, which is a further assurance that

2 everyone can have that the entire record is completely transparent for

3 everyone to see.

4 We do not see any conflict whatsoever, and in the future we do

5 indeed anticipate, I don't know, but just so there's, again, transparency,

6 but I certainly anticipate in the future a witness may indeed be taken by

7 the lawyer in court who also interviewed that person previously. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber will

10 give thought to the question raised by Mr. Karnavas, but I'm going to ask

11 the usher to go and have the witness shown into the courtroom.

12 While that is being done, the registrar, who is always mindful of

13 the time, would like to give us two IC numbers.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. So several

15 parties have submitted some lists of documents to be tendered through

16 Witness Mustafa Hadrovic, and the list submitted by OTP shall be given the

17 Exhibit number IC 445, while the list submitted by 3D shall be given the

18 Exhibit number IC 446.

19 Finally, there has been a list -- actually, 5D has submitted a

20 list of objections to documents tendered through -- tendered by the OTP

21 through Witness DD. This list will be assigned Exhibit number IC 447.

22 [The witness enters court]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24 Sir, would you stand, because you will be taking the solemn

25 declaration. But first tell me whether you understand in your own

Page 14630

1 language what I'm saying in your own language. So please tell me if you

2 understand.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, may have your first name,

7 last name, and date of birth, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Josip Praljak, the 4th of November,

9 1952.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am retired, a pensioner.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you give me your date of

13 birth again.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1952.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, do you have any family ties

16 with General Praljak who is in the courtroom or do you just share the same

17 surname?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You mean you have the same name

20 but you do not have any family ties with him?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We do have. We do have.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what are the family

23 relationship -- what is the family relationship that you have with

24 General Praljak?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My late father and his late father

Page 14631

1 were two brothers.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you, sir, ever

3 testified before an international or national court of law about the

4 events that took place in your country or is this the first time that

5 you're testifying?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you now go ahead and read

8 the solemn declaration handed to you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we go ahead I'd like to

14 give you some information. You're going to be answering questions first

15 put to you by the Prosecution, which I'm sure you have met, probably

16 during the weekend. These questions will relate to your activity at

17 Heliodrom, and for that the Prosecution has been given six hours. So

18 during those six hours the Prosecution will be asking you questions.

19 After that first stage the Defence teams and counsel sitting to

20 your left will also be asking you questions, and the time for them has

21 been distributed amongst the Defence counsel and the accused. Mr. Coric

22 will have one hour, 30 minutes; Mr. Pusic will have one hour and 30

23 minutes; and Mr. Stojic will also have one hour and 30 minutes. The three

24 other accused, who are Mr. Prlic, Mr. Petkovic, and General Praljak, will

25 have 45 minutes each. However, they can decide to allocate each other any

Page 14632

1 time necessary.

2 Now, the four Judges sitting up at the bench in front of you can

3 also ask you questions at any point in time, and I'm sure we shall be

4 doing so, either to clarify certain answers that you have given to either

5 of the two parties or because we have questions of our own and feel we

6 need to ask those questions, because we have heard quite a lot of

7 witnesses testifying about the Heliodrom. So our questions will follow on

8 from what we have already heard.

9 I would like to read out a Rule of the Rules of Procedure and

10 Evidence which is very important and which you should be apprised of in

11 view of your status as witness. It is Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Evidence

12 and Procedure, and I'll read it out very slowly so that the interpreters

13 can translate it for you, translate what I have said to you perfectly.

14 This is what Rule 90(E) says: "A witness may object to making any

15 statement which might tend to incriminate the witness. The Chamber may,

16 however, compel the witness to answer the question. Testimony compelled

17 in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution

18 against the witness for any offence other than false testimony."

19 So this Rule applies to you and has three elements within it. The

20 first element is to say that when you are asked a question, whether it be

21 by the Prosecution, the Defence, or the Judges, if you consider it

22 necessary you can say, "I do not want to answer that question because my

23 answer would incriminate me."

24 So taking that hypothesis, the Chamber can decide to hear the

25 answer to the question nevertheless; however, if it does so, testimony

Page 14633

1 compelled in this way cannot be used as evidence against you.

2 It might seem complicated, but place your trust in the Judges and

3 rest assured that they will apply the Rule to the letter. And this has

4 never actually taken place in practice. It might be theory, but

5 nonetheless it was necessary for me to apprise you of that Rule.

6 Having said that, let me ask you to be as precise as possible in

7 giving us your answers, because we are in oral proceedings here but

8 supplemented by documents. So the Prosecution will be presenting you with

9 documents in due course, and we have a number of binders full of documents

10 which they intend to present to you. So your answers should be as precise

11 as possible, because we need precision. We don't need approximations.

12 Now, if at any point in time we feel that there has been some

13 approximation, the Judges will ask you questions to be more specific and

14 precise in your answers.

15 If you don't understand a question, please do not hesitate to ask

16 a person asking the question to rephrase it so that you can answer exactly

17 what has been asked.

18 You will also see that the way in which the questions are posed

19 are very different depending on who is doing the asking. The Prosecution

20 has one style and technique, the Defence has another, and the Judges have

21 a third approach, so that you'll see that these approaches are not the

22 same and the questions are asked in a different matter. But that is a

23 technical point and need not concern you, because the essential point here

24 is that you answer as exactly as possible the question that is being

25 asked.

Page 14634

1 If at any time during the proceedings you are feeling unwell,

2 please do not hesitate to let us know, or if you're experiencing any

3 difficulties, because four days of testimony in court is very tiring for a

4 witness. I'm sure you'll leave the courtroom feeling extremely tired. So

5 if you're feeling unwell or if you wish to take a break, please ask us.

6 Generally we have a break every one and a half hours. We take a 20-minute

7 break and then reconvene. But if at any point you're feeling incapable of

8 continuing and not feeling well, we will make a break, because, as I say,

9 it is very tiring, mentally and otherwise, to focus on the questions being

10 asked and to provide your answers, and four days of testimony, five hours

11 a day, means 20 hours during those two days of questions and answers,

12 which is a very long time, and you might feel very tired. So as I've

13 said, please tell us if you do. The Chamber is here to help you out if

14 you experience any difficulties.

15 Since you have already taken the solemn declaration, you are a

16 witness in the pursuit of justice, which means that, as of now, you should

17 not have any contact with the Prosecution. So this evening when you go

18 back to your hotel, don't meet with anyone or talk to anyone from --

19 except the Witness and Victims Unit.

20 So that in general terms is how the proceedings are going to be

21 conducted this afternoon and this week, in fact. And we have devoted this

22 whole week to your testimony.

23 Mr. Scott --

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. My colleague wants

Page 14635

1 to make sure that you have perfectly understood the sense and the meaning

2 of Rule 90(E) concerning self-incrimination. Have you understood it well,

3 because if you haven't, then I can add to what I have already said. Can

4 you answer?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You understood well?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you understood that if

9 answering a question could possibly incriminate you, you can tell us, "I

10 don't want to answer this question." You understood this?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy.

13 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I just saw the matter is clear to the

14 witness. Of course Your Honour has properly advised him of the position

15 under Rule 90(E). Your Honour, nonetheless, as I understand it, while

16 that Rule would prevent any answers he might give from being used in a

17 prosecution which might be brought before this Tribunal, I don't think it

18 could confer that protection in -- in any proceedings that might be

19 brought elsewhere. Your Honour, that may not be clear to the witness, and

20 I wonder whether the Trial Chamber might think it appropriate to give that

21 additional warning.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Murphy. That did

23 not elude me, of course.

24 But we have another thing to add, Witness. When this Tribunal

25 grants you protection, that protection concerns only your conduct before

Page 14636

1 this Tribunal, not before any national court, so within this framework the

2 Trial Chamber has another technical possibility. Let us imagine that you

3 were asked a question and that answering it could incriminate you. Let's

4 take a very simple example and you will understand.

5 Let's imagine the warden of the prison or a deputy warden is

6 outside his cell and sees a guard beating a prisoner and the warden and

7 the deputy warden fail to do anything. You can say, "Yes, I was there. I

8 saw it, but I did nothing," which means this Tribunal will not prosecute

9 you for that. But in your own country, the prosecutor may use this

10 against you, and in that case we, the Trial Chamber, have one possible

11 course of action, and that is to move into private session or closed

12 session so that nobody on the outside knows what you've said.

13 Of course, this is purely hypothetical at this point, and we will

14 play it by the ear and judge what is best in a particular situation. For

15 the moment it is important that we make sure that you have perfectly

16 understood the meaning of my warning. You confirmed it. Can you say

17 again, "I understood it well"?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I confirm I understood.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, with all due respect, even if it's in

20 closed session the Prosecution, if they were requested to provide a

21 transcript of the gentleman's testimony to -- to Bosnia, to the state

22 court, they would have to do so. Any -- because the gentleman is a

23 suspect, you know, anything and everything that he says obviously can --

24 can be used against him. Any immunity that this Court grants to him,

25 because that's in essence what you're doing, cannot be applied in

Page 14637

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and even in closed-session testimony they will have to

2 be -- that will need to be provided. That's -- that's my understanding at

3 least.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you say, they will have, but

5 the Trial Chamber may issue a decision stipulating that any such

6 communication will only take place with the consent and approval of the

7 Chamber. So I already have an answer to that. There is no question that

8 you asked, in fact, Mr. Karnavas, so I can't answer it.

9 We have already spent half of an hour on procedural matters, and I

10 think we should finally start.

11 Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

12 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court, Mr. President and

13 Your Honours, ever so briefly. In talking to this witness, I don't have

14 any reason to believe that any of these will actually -- any of these

15 matters will actually present a problem. I understand this witness is

16 here to speak completely candidly with the Chamber and provide his

17 evidence. Just so the record is clear and there is no misunderstanding

18 and there is no point in going into it now, but I reserve the position of

19 the Prosecution. We may not in fact agree with some of the positions that

20 have been stated by various Defence counsel asking that, so there's no

21 point to belabour it at this juncture.

22 I also extent my greetings to everyone else in the courtroom and

23 to those helping us in the booths.

24 Examination by Mr. Scott:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Praljak. I didn't get any translation. I

Page 14638

1 don't know if anybody else did.

2 THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible answer from the witness.


4 Q. I think you may need to move a bit closer to the -- well, we'll

5 try that.

6 Sir, I'm going to try to move fairly quickly through some of your

7 background which I hope won't be disputed. As you indicated a few moments

8 ago, you were born on the 4th of November, 1952. As I understand it, you

9 completed training and education in the field of construction technician

10 in 1973. In 1973 and 1974, you completed your military service with the

11 JNA. Let me stop there and ask you, is that all correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Following your service in the JNA, from approximately the 25th of

14 May, 1975, to the 15th of October, 1978, you worked for the parks,

15 essentially what might be called the parks department of the city of

16 Mostar; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Directing your attention to the period, the 15th of October, 1978,

19 to the 30th of October, 1991, you were an instructor for employment at the

20 district prison in Mostar on Ricinova street; is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Just because you spent a great deal of your professional life in

23 that position, could you please ever so briefly explain to the Judges

24 what that job involved? When you say instructor for employment at the

25 district prison, what did your job actually involve on a more or less

Page 14639

1 daily basis?

2 A. There was an economic industrial unit at the district prison in

3 Mostar and it had us own estate. Next to that estate, next to that farm,

4 in fact, which was tilled it had orchards. Prisoners who were in prison

5 for more than six months were also obliged to work, at least all of them

6 who were able to work and who were able to leave the prison and who were

7 healthy had to work in enterprises with which I signed agreements or

8 contracts, and that was a measure of re-education. They would leave every

9 morning and return in the afternoon after work. They would spend the

10 night in prison, and that's how it went from day-to-day.

11 Q. And, sir, it's already mentioned that you retired then from that

12 position in 1991, October of 1991, and I take it were in retirement for a

13 period of time until approximately mid-1992; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In July 1992 you joined the HVO, and my understanding, sir, is

16 that you were approached by someone working in the HVO prison system, and

17 because of your background working in prisons you were asked to return

18 once again to the field of prison work in this instance in the Mostar

19 district prison at that time; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And after that time is it correct to say that you then became

22 involved in the actual construction or remodelling a part of the Heliodrom

23 facility to also serve as a prison facility for the HVO?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Just by way of overview, and of course we're going to talk about

Page 14640

1 this in much greater detail the next day or two, so the Judges can put

2 some dates on your involvement and your positions is it correct, sir, that

3 from approximately then the 21st of September, 1992, until the 10th of

4 December, 1993, you were the deputy warden of the Heliodrom prison near

5 Mostar?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it correct, sir, that from the 10th of December, 1993,

8 until 1 July 1994 you were then the co-commander or co-warden of what was

9 then called the Heliodrom prisoner of war camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, let's talk briefly about your time during the construction

12 phase of establishing the Heliodrom prison. Can you tell the Judges a

13 little bit how you became involved in that work and what you did during

14 approximately the summer of 1992 to bring that facility into existence.

15 A. When I started talking to the warden of the prison, Mr. Pero

16 Nikolic, he told me to come and see him and help him with his affairs, the

17 work that will be done at Heliodrom, that a military prison would be built

18 for the purpose of separating civilians from the military.

19 Every day after the morning briefing the warden would distribute

20 assignments, and I would go to Heliodrom, to the building that had already

21 been selected as one which would be most easily converted into a prison.

22 Q. And is it correct to say, sir, that that building, the one you

23 just referred to, is then what became and what will be referred to in the

24 course of your testimony as the "prison building" at the Heliodrom

25 complex?

Page 14641

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And just while we're on background, sir, and I think the Judges

3 will probably have heard evidence about this, but just to confirm, is it

4 correct that the Heliodrom had been up until that time a JNA military

5 facility and then sometime around June or July of 1992 had been converted

6 and used as an HVO barracks? Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, approximately when the Heliodrom

9 prison in this form was opened? When did it actually begin to receive

10 prisoners, in other words.

11 A. On the 22nd of September the transfer of military detainees and

12 prisoners of war began.

13 Q. Can I ask you, please, if prior to that time, prior to the 22nd of

14 September of 1992, but perhaps earlier in that month, did you have a

15 meeting with Mr. Nikolic, the warden, and anyone else in connection with

16 the opening of the prison and your position or function there?

17 A. Every morning I would meet with the warden, Nikolic, and receive

18 instructions for my work.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've just answered a series of

20 questions that in the mind of a lawyer raised a whole new series of

21 questions, but from what you just told the Prosecutor, you assumed your

22 duties on the 22nd September, 1992, as deputy warden, and at that moment

23 it was a military prison, wasn't it?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when you were appointed

Page 14642

1 deputy warden, did you have a military rank, and were you officially a

2 military man? Because this system of prisons is something that I seem to

3 recognise from my country, although there are certain differences. So I'm

4 just trying to see what questions are appropriate to be asked of you.

5 On the 22nd of September, 1992, when you were appointed deputy

6 warden of that military prison did you have a military rank or a unit --

7 and/or a unit that you belonged to? Can you specify that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 22nd when we transferred to

9 Heliodrom, to the military prison, I did not have any appointment, because

10 at that time only the warden of the prison was appointed and the commander

11 of the prison, and there were shift commanders and guards who were

12 appointed.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But on the 22nd of September you

14 were going to that prison, as you said. Were you paid? Who was paying

15 you? Or were you just working as a volunteer for humanitarian reasons?

16 Tell me, what was your function then, your title on the 22nd September?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the salaries that I know of I

18 received through the military police.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were paid by the military

20 police, and you arrived at Heliodrom on the 22nd of September. At that

21 point, was there a document or a verbal order to the effect that you were

22 going to be deputy warden?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never received that.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: A very small, a very short question. You have

25 used the term "warden," and you have used the term "commander." Do they

Page 14643

1 designate the same person? Is it the same?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I had no appointment of my

3 own, Warden Pusic told me that I may discharge functions and stand in for

4 him. And let me emphasise it was Mile Pusic, because there are several

5 Pusics.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you very quickly describe

7 the organisational and administrative structure of the management of that

8 military prison from September 1992 onwards, because I see that you are

9 beginning to -- introducing elements such as that you were not appointed,

10 et cetera. So tell us, who was the warden and who was the deputy. Can

11 you describe it from your memory?

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me. I'm

13 really sorry, but I think I may assist with the answer to Honourable Judge

14 Trechsel. The Witness said commander of the security, security commander;

15 however, the word "security" is missing from the interpretation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I might be allowed to intervene, with

18 all respect. These are all questions that the Prosecution is prepared to

19 answer. We even have a chart of the administrative structure, and I would

20 for --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead. Go ahead.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, can I ask you, prior to arriving or taking up this position

24 which we're going to continue talking about, on the 22nd of September,

25 1992, can I please direct your attention back a few weeks earlier to the

Page 14644

1 8th of September, 1992? Did you on that day meet with both Mr. Pero

2 Nikolic, a man you've already described, and also a man named Valentin

3 Coric?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where did you meet with Mr. Coric and Mr. Nikolic?

6 A. Nikolic came to fetch me at Heliodrom, and we went to Ljubuski to

7 see Mr. Coric.

8 Q. And did you understand where particularly in Ljubuski you went to

9 meet Mr. Coric?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Nikolic told me.

11 Q. And what was the location?

12 A. At Heliodrom and on the way to Ljubuski.

13 Q. All right. Well, my question to you, sir, when you met with

14 Mr. Coric in Ljubuski, can you tell the Judges -- I don't want to get too

15 seriously bogged down in this, but do you recall where, what building or

16 location you met with Mr. Coric in Ljubuski?

17 A. It was his office in the middle of Ljubuski. The military prison

18 in Ljubuski was later housed in that prison, and that belonged to our

19 company towards the end of 1993.

20 Q. Could you please tell the Judges as best you recall the

21 conversation or what took place during this meeting between Mr. Nikolic,

22 Mr. Coric, and yourself?

23 A. Mr. Nikolic informed Mr. Coric that the works at Heliodrom are

24 being finalised, that the building would soon be ready, and that the

25 transfer would soon be able to take place. In addition to that, Mr. Coric

Page 14645

1 emphasised the importance of that prison that would be named military

2 investigations prison of Herceg-Bosna. And he also explained the purpose

3 of the prison that would exist in the peace -- on the peace side. That's

4 the part that I remember well.

5 Q. Do you recall -- you mentioned in response to questions from the

6 President a few minutes ago, that you mentioned the name Mile Pusic. Did

7 Mr. Coric say anything about Mr. Pusic, this Mile Pusic, and what his

8 position would be at the Heliodrom facility at that time?

9 A. I remember it. Mr. Coric said that he had selected and found the

10 warden. His name was Mile Pusic. And that man, he was also commander of

11 the 6th Battalion that was deployed within the perimeter of Heliodrom.

12 Q. And just so the record is clear, sir, the 6th Battalion, was that

13 a formation of the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO, that had been based

14 in Krusevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, during this conversation did your role or function come up in

17 the meeting with Mr. Coric?

18 A. I was not even mentioned. All the talk was about Mr. Mile Pusic.

19 And Mr. Pero Nikolic was instructed to choose himself commanders of

20 security and shift leaders as well as military policemen who would move to

21 Heliodrom.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, maybe it's a matter of

23 interpretation, but in line 4 of page 21 in English, I see that there is a

24 reference to military investigations prison of Herceg-Bosna, whereas in

25 the French interpretation I did not hear the word "investigations." What

Page 14646

1 exactly did you say in your language, because there are military prisons

2 that are two-pronged, a part that holds military prisoners serving a

3 sentence, but also prisoners in another part who are being investigated.

4 So that particular prison you are talking about, was that also supposed to

5 serve for military investigations?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The full name was Central Military

7 Investigations Prison of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you say that word in

9 the -- in your language again?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Central Military Investigation

11 Prison of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


14 Q. Sir, on this point before we come back to the topic of your -- the

15 role you came to play at this time, did you understand based on a

16 conversation with Mr. Coric, and I believe you mentioned this a few

17 moments ago, that this facility at that time would be used to hold, if you

18 will, both military discipline detainees and also prisoners of war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And just for the record and so it's clear, at that particular time

21 in September 1992, is it fair to say that most of the prisoners of war

22 were Serbs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned a moment ago if I heard you

25 correctly that Mr. Coric or is somebody had said it would be up to

Page 14647

1 Mr. Pusic, and I won't keep distinguishing between the two, but again this

2 is not the accused in this case but Mile Pusic, would select some of his

3 staff or perhaps all of his staff. Did you -- excuse me?

4 A. Mile Pusic.

5 Q. Yes. Could you confirm that the role you took initially at that

6 time was something as an advisor for Mr. Pusic?

7 A. Well, that's what I would call it myself.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Again about family ties. To the

9 best your knowledge, was Mr. Mile Pusic a relative of Mr. Berislav Pusic?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that. Probably not.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.


13 Q. And, sir, could you also tell us before we move further, at the

14 time that the Heliodrom prison was brought on line, if you will, in

15 September of 1992, what was the approximate capacity? That is, how many

16 prisoners could that facility hold at what might be called full capacity,

17 properly hold?

18 A. Five hundred to 520 persons.

19 Q. Now, let me ask you, around this time as the prison was opened on

20 the 22nd of September, 1992, did Mr. Coric provide an instruction book or

21 something that was perhaps referred to as house rules on how the prison

22 should be run?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. SCOTT: Could I ask, please, that the witness be assisted in

25 looking at Exhibit P 00514.

Page 14648

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us the number of

2 the binder?

3 MR. SCOTT: I'm -- for the information of those not using e-court,

4 Your Honour, I'm told it's in binder 13 -- bundle 13, excuse me, bundle

5 13, part 1, which is essentially most of the documents that we'll actually

6 be using in court with the witness. Not all, but most. And they are

7 tabbed as usual for the Judges. So we're talking about 514. My apology

8 for not pointing that out sooner.

9 Q. If you have that, sir, and from my vantage point it appears that

10 you do, if you can look at Exhibit 514 in your language, and can you tell

11 the Judges is what you see there the document that was provided by

12 Mr. Coric in September 1992 as the house rules for the Heliodrom prison?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can you tell the Judges, please, for what period of time --

15 until when do these rules continue to apply at the Heliodrom prison?

16 A. The rules did not change all the way until the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat this word? We did not

18 understand.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house rules did not change.


21 Q. To make it concrete for our purposes, sir, which we're primarily

22 interested in and perhaps extending in the period late December 1993,

23 early 1994, did these rules, the house rules that are shown in Exhibit

24 514, did those rules continue to be in effect throughout the period

25 September 1992 to December 1993?

Page 14649

1 A. The house rules of the prison remain the same throughout, although

2 in June there was a minor reorganisation, namely the district prison --

3 or, rather, the security service was attached to the 5th Battalion of the

4 military police as a platoon of one of its companies.

5 Q. All right. Sir, can I ask you just so the record is clear, when

6 you say June, are you now referring to June 1993?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Full, sir, allow me to come to that organisational

9 adjustment in a moment or two.

10 Can you tell us where this book of house rules -- where that was

11 kept and around the Heliodrom prison throughout this time period, if you

12 can recall?

13 A. In the prison building it was accessible to everyone.

14 Q. Can you confirm to the Judges that a copy of the house rules was

15 in the duty room?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, sir, before moving further into 1993, just to touch on -- we

18 mentioned prisoners of war and Serbs that were being held at that time.

19 Can I just please ask the witness look at Exhibit 677. It's in the same

20 binder, 677.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

22 Before we move on to the next document, sir, I'd like a precision.

23 The Prosecutor showed you the document 514, and the title of that document

24 was "Instructions for the Operation of the Central Military Prison," and I

25 observe that the word "investigation" doesn't appear there, but let's move

Page 14650

1 on. In this the distinction is made between prisoners of war and military

2 prisoners. That's clearly made with a slight nuance. As military

3 prisoners, it refers also to civilians who can be incarcerated who have

4 committed a crime against the military or the army. So this prison seems

5 to be taking in three categories of persons, prisoners of war, soldiers,

6 and civilians.

7 Now, these categories in legal terms, in the administration of a

8 prison was somebody in charge of verifying their status, of checking their

9 status, because as you know a prisoner of war invokes the Geneva

10 Conventions and they have special status. Military men or soldiers who

11 are serving a sentence, whether it be disciplinary or a term in prison

12 from a military court, or a civilian who is incarcerated as a detainee,

13 and now we have a military magistrate.

14 Now, you as the warden, did you deal with these different

15 situations, the different people and different types of person who were in

16 the prison? Did you look at their different status?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as when people came in,

18 those who processed certain military prisoners, it was only them who knew

19 about the crimes and they would be placed in the section of the military

20 prison.

21 Now, when prisoners of war came in, they were put up in another

22 part of the prison. So not together with the soldiers, the military

23 prisoners, but in a separate part. It was physically separate.

24 And then part of the investigating part of the prison and those

25 doing the investigations, they would be alone because at that point in

Page 14651

1 time there was enough room in the prisons. So the prison functioned in

2 the best possible -- under the best possible conditions. There was no

3 overcrowding at the time.

4 All the files and dossiers about the case history of the

5 individuals, it was only people who investigated and interrogated the

6 prisoners who had access to those files.

7 Now, those who had been sentenced as military, they had to spend

8 10, 15 days in prisons, or however many they were sentenced to, and we

9 knew who those were and when they would be leaving.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now, if I've

11 understood you correctly, and I think I have, what you're saying is that

12 all the people that were in the prison had a status which allowed them to

13 be placed in the section for prisoners of war, for military prisoners or

14 in the part or investigations and interrogations were conducted by either

15 the military police or the civilian police. Is that roughly what you're

16 saying?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll come back to that.

19 Mr. Scott, please proceed. We had to make those precisions.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, and I can assure the Chamber

21 that when we get later into 1993, we'll pursue that with even greater

22 precision.

23 Q. Sir, if I can -- if you have document 677 in front of you. Can

24 you first of all just confirm for us, there are several references in the

25 first page of the document, the first paragraph and the second paragraph,

Page 14652

1 to the military remand centres in Livno, Mostar, and Tomislavgrad. Can

2 you just confirm that when we talk about the military remand centre in

3 Mostar, at this time this is a reference to the Heliodrom facility?

4 A. An explanation.

5 Q. Please.

6 A. The central military investigation prison, while there was still

7 no conflict going on it was there that we had detainees both from Livno

8 and from other places in Herceg-Bosna who had committed some crimes and

9 were serving sentence, having been found guilty. But the war wasn't on

10 yet at that time.

11 Q. Well, when you say the war wasn't on yet, I -- is it correct, sir,

12 can we all understand you to mean that the war between the Croats and

13 Muslims hadn't started yet as of October 1992, at this particular time

14 period? In your view, at least.

15 A. What I want to say is that it was peaceful, peacetime, and that

16 the conditions were ideal at that time.

17 Q. And, sir, this talks about the release of approximately 150 to

18 200 Serb prisoners of war in October 1992, and this is -- by the way,

19 this is a report dated the 31st of October, 1992, from Mr. Valentin Coric

20 to Mr. Bruno Stojic as chief of the defence department. And did you have

21 any role at the Mostar facility in the release of these Serb prisoners of

22 war?

23 A. I remember that these Serb prisoners, I read out their names at

24 the entrance and called them out when they were getting ready to go.

25 Q. And do you recall the role, very briefly, and we're going to move

Page 14653

1 forward, but can you recall in this particular instance what role the

2 International Committee of the Red Cross, the EU representatives, and

3 UNPROFOR played in the release of these Serb prisoners of war?

4 A. They were present, and most probably they followed the orders to

5 see how they were being applied in the prison.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you've just said that you

7 were present when these prisoners of war, Serb prisoners of war, were

8 released, because you said you were present and you even spoke to them.

9 Now, when you saw them leave, did all those Serbs -- were all

10 those Serbs military men belonging to the ex-JNA, or were there some

11 prisoners of war there who were also civilians, Serb civilians? To the

12 best of your recollections, could you tell us about that? Could you tell

13 us who those prisoners of war were who were released?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We in the prison, not I but all the

15 people who were in the -- in prison, didn't know exactly who was a

16 prisoner of war and who was a civilian.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But did somebody know at least?

18 Was there somebody who knew? You said "we." Perhaps you didn't know, but

19 was there somebody who did know, who knew exactly who was who?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant at the level of the prison,

21 Mile Pusic and the others below. However, those higher up must have

22 known. Probably they knew. They must have known who were civilians and

23 who about prisoner of war, but at a higher level.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as the prisoners of

25 war who were released, you can't tell us whether they were all former

Page 14654

1 soldiers or whether there were military men and civilians, Serbs? You're

2 not able to tell us that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't confirm that, no.


5 Q. Sir, can you tell us -- I was at -- my question to you was about

6 the EU representatives, the Red Cross, the -- and UNPROFOR. Did you --

7 was there any similarity that the role those agencies played in the

8 release of Serb prisoners in 1992 to what you then experienced

9 approximately a year later when Muslim prisoners were released from the

10 HVO prisons in 1993?

11 A. As far as I know, I think that's what the situation was. They

12 were just as present as the International Red Cross was present later

13 on.

14 Q. All right. Moving forward then, sir. At the end of 1992, in

15 December, did Mr. Coric appoint Stanko Bozic as warden of the Heliodrom

16 prison in place of Mr. Pusic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you recall, please, and can you tell the Judges whether

19 Mr. Coric came to the Heliodrom on the 21st of December, 1992, for the

20 purpose of installing Mr. Bozic as warden?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was anything more formal done at that time about your title

23 or position being perhaps moving from "an advisor," to being a deputy

24 warden?

25 A. No. I remained the way I had been up until then.

Page 14655

1 Q. Perhaps be just assist us in telling at what point would you -- do

2 you consider that by whatever means or method, de facto, de jure,

3 whatever, that you began to use the title and function as deputy warden of

4 the Heliodrom prison?

5 A. As I was in Ricinova street, in the District Court, the deputy

6 warden, all this signing and everything, I didn't change that till the

7 end.

8 Q. When you say "the end," what do you have in mind?

9 A. Until the appointment as deputy commander of the prisoner of war

10 facility at the end of 1993.

11 Q. So are you telling the Judges then that in terms -- from a de jure

12 point of view you weren't officially given that title in fact until the

13 end of 1993? De jure, de jure, if you understand that.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you -- did the time -- but you continued to work closely with

16 Mr. Bozic going forward from December 1992 and through 1993; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you and Mr. Bozic in fact share a secretary?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the name of the secretary, please?

22 A. Snjezana Cvitanovic.

23 Q. And during the time period that we're talking about now, and that

24 is as early as December 1992 and the first few months of 1993, was there a

25 man at the facility called Ante Smiljanic?

Page 14656

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was Mr. Smiljanic's position or function?

3 A. The security commander of the prison.

4 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at in the bundle that you have in

5 front of you --

6 MR. SCOTT: And it's the same bundle, Your Honours, that we've been

7 looking at so far, Exhibit 1711. Bless you.

8 Q. Sir, this is a document that appears to be signed by you. I'll

9 ask you to confirm that in a moment - to Bruno Stojic and Valentin Coric

10 dated the 20 -- excuse me, the 23rd of March, 1993.

11 Is it correct, sir, that at the period indicated in this document

12 during the time when Mr. Bozic [Realtime transcript read in error "Coric"]

13 was away you were acting, in fact, as warden of the Heliodrom prison?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And is it correct, sir, that the dates of that were approximately

16 the 7th of February, 1993, until the 22nd of March, 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And who, if anyone, named you or put you in the position of warden

19 during the time that Mr. Bozic was away?

20 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise but there is

21 an error in the transcript. Mr. Scott, on page 32, line 12 to 14, it says

22 that when Mr. Coric was away that the gentleman was acting and so on,

23 signing.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, counsel. Counsel is correct. The record

25 should reflect -- I don't think it had been in dispute, that it should be

Page 14657

1 when Mr. Bozic was away. Thank you.

2 Q. Sir, going back to my question, do you know who it was who named

3 you or put you in the position while Mr. Bozic was away?

4 A. May I give an explanation?

5 Q. Please.

6 A. When on the 7th of February, 1993, Bozic left pursuant to

7 permission from Valentin Coric to go back to his firm and work there where

8 he'd been working before the war, the prison was left without a warden.

9 And then I asked over the phone - Mr. Coric - what was going to happen

10 with the prison. What are we going to do, that somebody had to be

11 appointed to take care of the prison. And he said to me, "Continue

12 working. You, Josip, will report back to me, and Ante Smiljanic will be

13 responsible to me for the prison and for the guards," but that soon a man

14 would be found, someone would be found to perform the function of warden.

15 And when I sent out my reports, I would sign as warden.

16 And then on the 22nd of March, 1993, Mr. Stanko Bozic appeared in

17 the prison. I informed --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you're giving us some

19 interesting details, but I'm a little troubled by one point. You said

20 that you called Mr. Coric up on the phone and that he told you to continue

21 working, you, Josip Praljak, to continue doing your work and to send him

22 reports, but that Ante Smiljanic would be in charge of the security in the

23 prison and the guards until a warden had been found.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, as you know, a prison has

Page 14658

1 the number one man who is the warden, the chief, the head, and then the

2 heads of the guards, that's the next level down.

3 Now, on the 7th of February to the 22nd of March were you in

4 charge of questions of security as well, or did your prison function with

5 two authorities, you in charge of logistics, administration, and so on,

6 and Mr. Smiljanic who was in charge of the security and the guards? Can

7 you tell us what it is exactly that you were in charge of and responsible

8 for?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the time mentioned here, I

10 was just the person who informed and reported about the events going on in

11 the prison, and that is why I wrote this particular report saying that at

12 that time if anything happened I would be fully responsible. I would take

13 on all material responsibility.

14 Now, my writing, did was that I hadn't been appointed warden

15 myself. And also, when Mr. Bozic returned, he just took over the prison

16 as if he'd never left.

17 So that was the object of my writing this.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's imagine the situation

19 during the interim period, that a guard, for example, beat a detainee.

20 Let's put that hypothetical. So who would be responsible? Would it be

21 you or Mr. Smiljanic?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person in that -- who was in

23 that place, in that spot and saw what was going on the I never saw

24 anything like that, nor did anybody ever warn me of any such things and

25 tell me that anything like that was going on at that time.

Page 14659

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you as the interim

2 warden, you didn't tour the premises to see what was going on? You didn't

3 talk to the prisoners? You didn't keep informed -- you weren't kept

4 informed about any incidents and exercise all your authorities?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the prison itself is

6 concerned, all the reports would be brought in by Mr. Ante Smiljanic in

7 the morning, and he would inform us of all the events that had happened

8 during the night, as handed over to him by the shift commander, because I

9 worked from 8.00 in the morning until 4.00 p.m. Those were my working

10 hours.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So you say that

12 Mr. Smiljanic came to report to you on what had happened every day.

13 Now, let's imagine that Mr. Smiljanic told you that guard X during

14 the night had beat detainee Y. What would you have done under those

15 circumstances? Did you have the power and authority to discipline the

16 guard, guard X, take disciplinary measures, or what? What would you have

17 done faced with a situation like that? Now, maybe between February and

18 March nothing like that happened, but let's just take this hypothetical.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had Mr. Smiljanic informed me, then

20 I would have written a report and sent the report to the crime department

21 or crime prevention department of the military police to investigate the

22 incident and to bring the perpetrators to justice, and all the superior

23 authorities would have been informed about that.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, your testimony is rather

25 perplexing in portions to me, because if I look at the background, your

Page 14660

1 background as explained to us by the Prosecutor, somebody who is

2 competent, who has ample experience in penitentiary matters, that you

3 worked at Heliodrom for a long time and that you contributing to

4 establishing the organisation in the prison, so you worked for a long time

5 without having any official title. You wrote reports and acted in place

6 of the warden when necessary, and you were aware of hierarchy and the

7 military police and so on. Now, my question is this: Why were you not

8 officially appointed for a long time? Was it because the hierarchy in the

9 military police was such that they did not think you competent enough,

10 regardless of your qualification, or did you have some other secret

11 assignment? Were you on a secret mission given to you by the military

12 police officials that you had to implement without drawing attention to

13 yourself? Or perhaps there was some other reason that you can tell the

14 Chamber of, and that you can explain to us why you were not appointed from

15 the very beginning.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for an answer to the question,

17 the book that was shown a moment ago, there wasn't a post called deputy

18 warden. So I was not able to be assigned that role. The post didn't

19 exist, and I couldn't be appointed to a post that didn't in actual fact

20 exist. But I performed the task in an advisory capacity because I had

21 permission to do that from the warden himself, who was Mile Pusic, and so

22 that's how I introduced myself and that's how I signed my name, although I

23 do think I had a great deal of experience in prison affairs.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To follow up from my fellow

25 Judge's question, which was a very precise question, and I'm not sure that

Page 14661

1 you're replying specifically enough, in February -- let's imagine this:

2 In February, the international community, the ICRC, for example, the

3 European Union or some well-known personage comes to the prison. Let's

4 take that as a hypothesis. Who would go and greet them, greet this

5 high-ranking visitor as being the person responsible in the prison to

6 receive visitors? Would that have been you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as I did do in fact at that

8 time.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's quarter to 4.00. We're

10 going to take a 20-minute break and reconvene at five minutes past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.


15 Q. All right. Mr. Praljak, I'd like to move forward, please, from

16 the document that we were just looking at and turning, in fact, back to

17 the question -- some of the questions that the President was raising

18 earlier today.

19 As we move into 1993 and after Mr. Bozic returned as we saw in the

20 last document at approximately the end of March, so we're focusing on that

21 period forward, please, is it correct that under -- at that time you, Mr.

22 Bozic, and Mr. Smiljanic, were you all HVO military police, or did you

23 consider yourself all to be HVO military police?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And we're going to come at some point very soon to the

Page 14662

1 organisational changes that took place in June, but we're not there yet.

2 Prior to June 1993, is it fair to say that the Heliodrom prison

3 administration was essentially a -- what might be called an independent or

4 self-standing unit?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And Mr. Bozic was the head of that unit, is that fair to say?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And who was Mr. Bozic's superior during that time period?

9 A. Mr. Valentin Coric.

10 Q. Now, you said a few minutes ago or earlier this afternoon that

11 around June of 1993 the 5th Battalion of military police was organised,

12 and part of that organisation, the 1st Company, became associated with the

13 Heliodrom prison in some way; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you briefly describe to the Judges what happen at that time

16 and how that affected the organisation or structure of the Heliodrom

17 prison administration?

18 A. In June the 5th Battalion of the military police was established

19 with Ivan Antic [phoen] as commander. At that time this prison where I,

20 Bozic, Smiljanic, and the guard service worked became attached to one of

21 the companies of that battalion as a Security Platoon. The commander of

22 the company was Mr. Luka Sunjic.

23 Q. All right. Several questions about that. During this time and

24 again following up on questions asked by the Judges earlier, did you,

25 though, Mr. Bozic, yourself, Mr. Smiljanic, all continue to be members of

Page 14663

1 the military police, and were you paid your salary from the military

2 police throughout this period?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, in terms of how the Heliodrom

5 prison was actually run on a day-to-day basis, did the involvement or the

6 association with the 1st Company of the 5th Battalion military police have

7 any actual direct impact on the day-to-day structure and operations of the

8 prison?

9 A. Work at the prison continued as before, with the proviso that we

10 addressed Mr. Luka Sunjic, commander of the company, with requests for

11 assistance in logistics, namely to increase the number of policemen so

12 that the security of the detainees would be improved.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. Mr. Praljak, I would like to clarify

14 something. It's perhaps just linguistic. First, and that would be on

15 page 38, line 22, you spoke of a Security Platoon under Mr. Luka Sunjic.

16 Later you speak, on page 39, line 11, of a company. To my military

17 knowledge, you have a battalion, then the company, and the platoon is --

18 is lower. Now, was this a company or was it a platoon?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, the prison, were a platoon, like

20 a platoon, and we belonged to the company led by Commander Luka Sunjic.

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


23 Q. Sir, is it correct then that from an administrative and logistics

24 perspective you were treated as a platoon as a -- excuse me, as a platoon

25 of the 1st Company, 5th Battalion military police?

Page 14664

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But just to further clarify on this, for instance, can you tell

3 the Judges at any time in 1993 did you ever see Luka Sunjic actually

4 come to the prison, actually come and do any business at the Heliodrom

5 prison?

6 A. I never saw Luka Sunjic at Heliodrom, only at the military police,

7 in his office.

8 MR. SCOTT: If I could have the assistance of the usher to put

9 something on the ELMO that I will be asking for an IC number for,

10 Your Honours.

11 Q. If you can look at that, what's been placed on the ELMO next to

12 you, sir, if you can see that.

13 Sir, can you just look at this drawing and -- which is based on a

14 handwritten diagram that you had shown me, does this -- is this an

15 accurate representation or presentation of the structure of the Heliodrom

16 prison administration for the period April-November 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MURPHY: Just so we're clear, Your Honours, Mr. Scott's

19 question intended to ask about the de jure position or the witness's own

20 personal understanding of what the structure is?

21 MR. SCOTT: Fair enough, Your Honour. I'll ask further questions

22 of the witness -- from the witness.

23 Q. Just building on the question I put to you a moment ago, sir --

24 well, several things you've said so far, if I understand you correctly,

25 and, if I don't, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Around June 1993 the prison

Page 14665

1 unit was attached to the 1st Company, 5th Battalion military police for

2 administrative and logistical purposes; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then you told us -- also told us a few moments ago that in

5 fact Mr. Sunjic, who is not actually indicated on the chart but the

6 commander of the 1st Company, did I understand you to testify that you

7 never saw Mr. Sunjic come to the Heliodrom, not even one time?

8 A. I never saw him with my own eyes.

9 Q. So looking at what's in front of you now and to follow up on

10 counsel's question, does this indicate to you, or does this fairly

11 represent essentially the de facto, if not, in fact, both the de facto and

12 de jure structure at the Heliodrom prison during the period April-November

13 1993?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. SCOTT: And if I could have an IC number for that,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document will become Exhibit IC

19 448.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We have a question.

21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. Prosecutor.

22 Witness, you say you never saw Mr. Luka Sunjic at the Heliodrom,

23 but he was the commander of the company that had the prison in its

24 jurisdiction. How did he exercise his command over the prison?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For our purposes, for whatever we

Page 14666

1 needed, Mr. Ante Smiljanic would be the person that Bozic and I would go

2 to see in Mostar. We would have a meeting with him, explain what we

3 needed, what kind of assistance, and that's the only kind of meeting we

4 had with him in his office.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just said something that

6 does not quite tally with the schematic that we just saw. You said that

7 Mr. Bozic and Mr. Smiljanic went to see Luka Sunjic. However, if we look

8 at this schematic, we have the impression that the 1st Company of the 5th

9 Battalion had only the commander of the guard to talk to, Mr. Simic, but

10 from what you just said, it seems that we should also make the dotted

11 line -- draw the dotted line towards Mr. Bozic? What do you say about

12 that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we had our own vehicle as well,

14 for all the requests and for fuel, Mr. Bozic would go himself or send me.

15 I would take a request, fill the tank, and I would also see Mr. Luka

16 Sunjic, or both I and Stanko Bozic would go and see him to deal with

17 logistical matters.

18 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, the other question that arises from this

19 exhibit is that Mr. -- the witness is listed as being deputy warden, a

20 fact that he has consistently denied despite questioning by Mr. Scott for

21 quite some time. So if this is to represent the de jure position, perhaps

22 it does need some clarification.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, excuse me. If I might. In the course of

24 Mr. Praljak's testimony I think it will be become clear -- I submit that

25 it will become clear that for all practical purposes, I'll use that term,

Page 14667

1 I think arising to the level of de jure but that will be question for

2 argument perhaps later. He did act as deputy warden. The Chamber is

3 going to see document after document that he signed using the term "deputy

4 warden." So I think at the end of the evidence, Your Honours, you will

5 have to make your own determinations as to that.

6 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Just to avoid confusion

7 and to save time, when the previous witness was questioned it was said

8 that the 5th Battalion was established from June, whereas our schematic

9 says April. Maybe there's some confusion here. Maybe we can clarify it

10 because it's completely contrary to what the witness said earlier.

11 MR. SCOTT: If it will assist, Your Honour, I'll try to ask some

12 follow-up questions.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. SCOTT: My apologies.

15 Q. Mr. Praljak, if we can look at the chart, putting aside for one

16 moment, and I was standing there next to you I might even just put my hand

17 and maybe the usher could simply put his hand over the part that says 1st

18 Company, 5th Battalion military police so we can't see it. Now what we're

19 looking at now would that essentially have been the structure prior to

20 June 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it was only in June 1993, the only change was - and remove your

23 hand, usher, please - that this association with the 1st Company, 5th

24 Battalion was put into place; is that correct? Is that correct?

25 A. If I can clarify.

Page 14668

1 Q. Please.

2 A. If we take what we see at the beginning, April-November, that I

3 couldn't possibly say exactly whether it was true in April, but I know it

4 was true in June. And if we are looking for an exact date, then it's

5 rather June than April.

6 Q. Certainly for the -- all right. We'll accept that and move

7 forward, because in a very short time the only thing we're going to be

8 talking about is June forward. So I think we can move forward on that

9 basis, Mr. Praljak, and thank you for that clarification.

10 Sir, can I ask you, in terms of the guards at the facility, is it

11 correct to say that the military prison, Heliodrom prison, was under the

12 command of the HVO military police on a 24 hour a day basis?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were there a series of shifts that were staffed by various guard

15 details?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is it correct that sometimes they were 12-hour shifts and

18 sometimes they were 8-hour shifts?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, you've already indicated that Ante Smiljanic during this time

21 was the guard commander. Can you tell us, if you can remember, and again

22 if it will assist, if it will make things simpler, I'm happy just to focus

23 primarily on the period June forward, can you tell the Judges who the

24 shift commanders were, if we look again our chart, I'm talking about the

25 level commanders immediately below Mr. Smiljanic during this time period.

Page 14669

1 It may assist the Judges at some point to know who the shift commanders

2 were.

3 A. I don't know if I will be able to enumerate them all, but I

4 remember Ivan Zadro, Mario Puce, Ante Buhovac. That's a bit later.

5 Q. All right. Can you remember any other names?

6 A. Those are the ones I can remember.

7 Q. If I might, can you remember a Branko Jedva?

8 A. Branko Jedva was also there right at the beginning. I don't know

9 until when, but later he moved to another unit.

10 Q. How about Slavko Kozul?

11 A. Slavko Kozul too.

12 Q. And what about Pero Marijanovic?

13 A. He came later but he was deputy commander for security to Ante

14 Smiljanic.

15 Q. Do you have any recollection -- and when you say he came later,

16 how much later? And -- well, let me ask it this way: Approximately what

17 time in 1993 he came?

18 A. I think it was around March 1993.

19 Q. Can you recall any others or to the best of your knowledge would

20 the names we've just listed in the last few minutes be the shift -- excuse

21 me -- the persons who were the shift commanders during this period?

22 A. Well, we just mentioned those shift commanders.

23 Q. All right. Very well. If I could have the usher's assistance to

24 show you another document that will be marked as IC -- I'll ask for an IC

25 number in a moment.

Page 14670

1 If you can put that on the ELMO, please.

2 Sir, is it correct that when we -- when I met with you in the last

3 day or two I showed you this diagram without any of the red lettering on

4 it, and I asked you, if you could, to identify the principal buildings or

5 facilities that made up the Heliodrom prison in 1993, and is what we're

6 looking at the ELMO now, is that the drawing, and are the red markings on

7 that, is that your handwriting and your markings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Since you've written, of course, in your own native language, I'll

10 just look at -- can you just take us through -- you can start anywhere

11 you'd like, but if you would just take us through the various locations

12 you've made? What you've done in all instances is drawn an arrow and

13 given us a name. If you can just take us through those and tell us the

14 location you've marked, and lastly we'll ask for the translation from our

15 helpful interpreters. Perhaps starting on the left side, up, Zatvor, what

16 is that?

17 A. This is the building of the prison or, rather, the building that

18 was purposefully made as a building, the central military investigations

19 prison that we referred to earlier.

20 Q. Can I ask you, please, when we talk about that building and the

21 prison building, is that the building that you helped construct to convert

22 to a prison in August-September 1992? Is that what you're referring to as

23 the Zatvor?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. All right. Perhaps you could then continue on around the chart,

Page 14671

1 perhaps clockwise, and tell us what else you've marked.

2 A. This small structure just a metre away from the building of the

3 prison housed the administration where Bozic, I, and Stjelenac [phoen] had

4 their offices.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, did you have your own

6 office or did you share an office with somebody else?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a big space, so I had my own

8 office as did Bozic as well as Njezinac [phoen].

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you had your own office. Did

10 you have a telephone set with a separate telephone line?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Snjezanac [phoen] Cvitanovic

12 had a telephone.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you did not have a

14 telephone?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We would answer calls in

16 telephones in Snjezanac Cvitanovic's office both Bozic and I.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you replaced Mr. Bozic, did

18 you take over his office?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't need to.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So how did you manage with the

21 telephone?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only Snjezanac Cvitanovic had a

23 telephone set. I would go to her office and make a telephone call. It

24 was the office next door.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But it somebody called from

Page 14672

1 outside, for instance, from the defence ministry, from the SECR -- ICRC or

2 a journalist or anybody, how did you answer calls?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Snjezana would answer the call and

4 she would summon me.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You mean the secretary?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the secretary.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


9 Q. If you could then continue on around. There's a building

10 marked "Skola." What is that?

11 A. The school was this part of the building that was used when people

12 were brought in who could not fit into the building of the prison, and

13 then they were put up in the school building.

14 Q. Can you tell the Judges if you know approximately -- when was the

15 first time that the school building was used to hold prisoners?

16 A. As far as I can remember, it was on the 30th of June or the 1st of

17 July.

18 Q. Of 1993?

19 A. 1993.

20 Q. And then continuing on there's another relatively large, dark

21 building or block that appears to be labelled "sports hall," is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can I ask you a similar question? Can you tell the Judges,

25 please, when was the first time that the sports hall was used to house --

Page 14673

1 by the HVO to house prisoners?

2 A. When the building of the school became full, then the door of that

3 hall was opened and people started to be accommodated there. That means

4 in July.

5 Q. And then if I can ask you to look at the red writing on the lower

6 part of the chart toward the left edge, lower left edge, can you tell us

7 what that information indicates? And it's an arrow -- appears to be an

8 arrow going back towards the Zatvor, the prison building. What do you

9 indicate here?

10 A. What's indicated here is that Ante Smiljanic as commander of

11 security had had his office in the prison building where shift commanders

12 and guards were both stationed.

13 MR. SCOTT: Can I have an IC number, Your Honour, for that?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will become Exhibit IC 449.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. And if I could have the usher's assistance

17 to now hand the witness or -- yeah, than the witness or put on the ELMO

18 for him a photograph, an aerial photograph which I'll ask him to make

19 markings on, please.

20 Q. Sir, if you can, I'm going to ask you to -- if you can see and

21 mark the same locations on this photograph, the same locations that you

22 marked on the diagram that we were looking at just a moment ago.

23 A. Do you want me to draw this in?

24 Q. Yes, please. You can do it the same or you can draw an arrow

25 and -- you can draw a red line or arrow and the name or however you'd

Page 14674

1 like.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Is that the prison building, what you just marked as Zatvor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Go ahead, please. Perhaps if you can -- can you show us where the

6 administrative building was located that you and Mr. Bozic and the

7 secretary were located in? Where was the administrative building?

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Can you also mark the Skola, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And can I ask you finally to mark the sports hall.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Witness, I -- I think the procedure -- I assume that the President

14 would like us to follow would be if you would cut your name initials on

15 that and today's date, please.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Place your initials there

17 and put the date on the photograph. You can put your initials on the

18 white margin.

19 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the date, and it is the 26th

21 of February, 2007.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks].

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. An IC number,

24 please, registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, IC 450.

Page 14675

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may -- if I may add a question. Witness,

2 you have put the flash which goes to the sports hall so that it is between

3 practically two buildings. Is it between the left-hand building which is

4 a bit higher or the right-hand building which is a bit lower?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The lower one. The lower one is the

6 sports hall or halls.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's right next to that other

9 building.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

12 MR. SCOTT: Just so the record may --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott, please.


15 Q. Just so the record might be clear in the future, sorry, is it

16 correct that it appears that one of the red arrows you draw -- that you

17 drew a moment ago comes down to, just looking at the picture, would be the

18 upper right corner of that building, the roof of that building; is that

19 correct? Maybe you just want to circle it. If there's any dispute, maybe

20 you can just circle the whole building which you're saying is the sports

21 hall. Yes, excuse me, please.

22 A. [Marks].

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. SCOTT: I think between the diagram and the drawing hopefully

25 Your Honours will be satisfied. I'm sure others can follow up.

Page 14676

1 Thank you, usher, that completes the use of those particular

2 items.

3 Q. Is it --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we understand all the

5 better because we were in the locality ourselves.

6 MR. SCOTT: That's true. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sir, can I ask if it's correct that during the time period roughly

8 at least -- and it may have been true earlier, it may have been true

9 later, but I'm simply trying to focus our attention for purposes of the

10 record. During the period January through November of 1993 there would be

11 a morning meeting in Mr. Bozic's office; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I think you said a few minutes ago earlier today that Mr.

14 Bozic, yourself, and the secretary worked -- the approximate hours of your

15 workday were from 8.00 in the morning until 4.00 in the afternoon; is that

16 right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. While the various guard shifts or details would be there on a

19 24-hour a day basis?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it correct, sir, that at the morning meeting in Mr. Bozic's

22 office, Mr. Smiljanic would report to Mr. Bozic about any matters that had

23 happened since 4.00 the previous afternoon?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you attend these meetings, sir, by the way?

Page 14677

1 A. If it was necessary. I didn't always attend.

2 Q. And was there any particular arrangement or procedure by which

3 Mr. Bozic would give you any particular task or assignments on a daily or

4 a weekly basis?

5 A. When there was something I needed to do then he would give me the

6 assignment to do it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, this morning meeting where

8 you reported to Mr. Bozic about the events that took place after 4.00 p.m.

9 and until 8.00 in the morning, you said you took part in that type of

10 meeting, in those meetings. Now, who reported to Mr. Bozic? Who would

11 make the report to Mr. Bozic? Was it Mr. Smiljanic who would tell him

12 what had happened? So who reported orally to Mr. Bozic? Who was that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Smiljanic as the security

14 commander would report every morning.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, if

16 Mr. Smiljanic said that such-and-such a detainee was ill or something and

17 that he required help during the night, would Mr. Bozic ask questions in

18 order to gain more information about what had happened and on the report

19 tabled to him? And you yourself, too, or did you just sit back with your

20 hands folded and just listen to what was going on?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If somebody was sick, then there was

22 an infirmary in the prison, and that infirmary was staffed by doctors.

23 Now, in the barracks itself there was a dispensary so that aid could be

24 given at any point in time.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But let's take a hypothesis.

Page 14678

1 Let's imagine that in the middle of the night a detainee is taken

2 seriously ill, and he was taken to the infirmary and he dies. Now, at

3 that point in time, would one report to will Bozic about what had

4 happened? And, if so, would Mr. Bozic ask questions about the state of

5 health, why the detainee died, and so on and so forth? And did you

6 yourself take part in any events of that kind?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not take part, but Mr. Bozic,

8 having received information like that, would intervene straight away. He

9 would write an account. He would call his subordinates, and he would go

10 to the infirmary himself.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me ask you a more precise

12 question. During the time that you were there, were there ever any

13 detainees who died in prison?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember of a single case.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would like -- I would like to ask for a

16 precision. You said that you attended the meeting if necessary. Can you

17 explain to us under what circumstances it was considered necessary that

18 you attend?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I was to receive an assignment to

20 do something on that particular day, then Mr. Bozic would call me and

21 inform me of that task or assignment, and he would have given me the

22 assignment to carry out.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question: We know

24 that the ICRC came to visit the Heliodrom and that some internationals

25 came as well. Now, in order to prepare for this visit was there a meeting

Page 14679

1 in the morning saying that everybody should be prepared, the detainees,

2 that everything should be in order, clean, and so on? So did you have a

3 working meeting in order to prepare a visit by some international

4 organisation of this kind?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no preparations.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You prepared nothing?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only explanation I can give is

8 this --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What explanation? Who did the

10 explaining?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With respect to the International

12 Red Cross and their visit, for example.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead, explain this to

14 us. How did you go about this?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was an International Red Cross

16 visit while I was in prison. This was in February or March 1993. The

17 ICRC told us that they were going to visit, and I received them. I

18 welcomed them and took them to the prison. And I said -- I told the guard

19 service that they should allow the International Red Cross to tour the

20 prison themselves without any guards being present, that they should be

21 allowed to talk to everybody, to the detainees.

22 After that, once they had carried out their visit, they would come

23 to see me in the office and talk to me about their visit. After that,

24 after the visit, I would write out a report, and I would inform Valentin

25 Coric, the head, about it. I would tell him of their comments, what they

Page 14680

1 had noticed, their complaints, objections, and also the good things.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm sure we'll come

3 back to that question in due course.

4 Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Praljak, just to finish up on some of these background matters

7 that will then help us for the remainder of your testimony, and since it

8 may come up from time to time, when we talk about the -- when we talk

9 about the Heliodrom, is it -- is it accurate to say the Heliodrom itself

10 was a much larger complex? When people say "the Heliodrom," it's a much

11 larger complex than just the prison facilities; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And, for instance, if we still had the aerial photograph in front

14 of us that we were looking at a few minutes ago, there would be many parts

15 of that facility that were not considered part of the prison, or not the

16 Skola, or not the sports hall, or not the prison building; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us during -- again, if I can focus your attention as

20 much as possible, please, on 1993, and I'm now talking about the Heliodrom

21 in its wider meaning, not the prison but the entire facility, can you tell

22 it us, if you can recall, which HVO units were barracked or headquartered

23 or located at the larger overall Heliodrom facility?

24 A. At the Heliodrom there was the 3rd Brigade of the HVO, and the

25 Bruno Busic regiment was there of the HVO. And also there were units --

Page 14681

1 well, I don't know what their names were, but they were call the Jukic

2 men. I assume that they took their name from the commander, Juka Prazina.

3 And the Tutici, which I assume were Mladen Naletilic, Tuta's men, or

4 Andabak, as the commander, his men.

5 Q. Just for the record when we're looking at page 57 in the

6 transcript, line 2, when you said "Jukic men," could we better understand

7 that to be Juka's men?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Jukici.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A precision about the units. To

12 your knowledge, were there or were there not units belonging to the

13 Croatian army?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw anybody.


16 Q. In reference to -- you mentioned Tutici, Tuta's men. Did your

17 hear there was a unit at the Heliodrom called the ATs -- excuse me, the

18 ATG Kraljevic?

19 A. ATG Baja Kraljevic was later on. It was only later on that we

20 learnt that they had their headquarters at Heliodrom.

21 MR. SCOTT: And for the record if the Chamber's not heard that

22 abbreviation previously and I don't recall, ATG stands for anti-terrorist

23 group, please. I can see they have.

24 Q. Is that correct, sir, for the record?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14682

1 Q. Now, sir, were this -- with these structures and other background

2 pieces of information in mind, I would like to direct your attention now

3 specifically to the 9th of May, 1993. When you had the meeting with

4 Mr. Bozic --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. We

6 talked of units, and when you say units, materiel, equipment, and so on

7 comes to mind straight away. Now, we had a witness who told us something

8 about that, so I'd like your own opinion and your own testimony to receive

9 confirmation or to refute what he said.

10 Within the Heliodrom compound, did you see with your very own eyes

11 any tanks?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Never?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Not a single tank?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single tank.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if one of the detainees said

18 that he saw a tank, what would you say to that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what he saw, but I did

20 not see any.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If there was one, for example,

22 would you have seen it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not from the prison, no. Or near

24 the prison either.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But in the compound.

Page 14683

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's a broad area. I never

2 went round the whole compound.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me narrow my question down.

4 If I take this hypothesis, that a tank fired from the compound, would you

5 have heard it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If it fired and if it existed, and

7 if I was there from 6.00 in the morning until 4.00 -- until 2.00 -- or,

8 rather, 4.00 in the afternoon ...

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness give an answer, please.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if it had shot beforehand --

11 you didn't sleep there, did you? You didn't sleep on the premises. You

12 weren't there during the night between 4.00 p.m. and 6.00 a.m. Where were

13 you? Where did you spend that time?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My family was located at a place

15 called Siroki Brijeg, which is perhaps 20 kilometres and perhaps more, 25

16 kilometres, along the macadam road which I had to take every time, and

17 that's where I spent time with my wife and children, that's where I was,

18 so that it isn't possible to hear it there.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly,

20 at around 4.00 p.m. every day you would leave, and you wouldn't return

21 until the next morning to attend those famous 8.00 morning meetings; is

22 that right?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what about the weekend,

25 Saturday and Sunday? Were you there or not?

Page 14684

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was at home.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now at the level of the prison

3 command, the warden, you, the guards commander, was there always somebody

4 permanently there, that ensured permanence? If a problem arose, an

5 invasion, an attack on the prison, who would be able to alert the

6 authorities, the central authorities, so was there a permanent presence

7 there? Were any one of you there at any one time, because there would

8 have had to have been somebody responsible. So was there somebody there

9 in the prison?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shift commanders were there

11 round the clock, 24 hours in the prison. The prison was never left

12 without security.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And was there a timetable with

14 who was on duty, the name of the officer on duty, the person responsible

15 who -- on Saturday and Sunday, a timetable from such-and-such an hour

16 until such-and-such an hour?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The orders and timetable was

18 compiled by Ante Smiljanic for his guards.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: A little question just to be precise. You

21 have -- at the beginning you have said that you worked from 8.00 a.m. to

22 4.00 p.m., and that was also what the president based his last question.

23 But in between, and it can be found on page 59 at lines 6 and 8, you seem

24 to have said that at least sometimes you worked from 6.00 a.m. to 2 p.m.

25 Is that correct?

Page 14685

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, from 8.00 to 4.00. Perhaps I

2 might have misspoken. I might have made a slip of the tongue, but what I

3 meant to say was from 8.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In February, March, when you

6 were the interim warden, on the weekend, Saturday and Sunday, you weren't

7 there?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if a problem arose could

10 they call you at home to tell you about what was going on, if they needed

11 to?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That was possible?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because you had a telephone at

16 Siroki Brijeg, did you?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


19 Q. Sir, if we could go back now to the 9th of May, 1993. Can you

20 tell the Judges whether Mr. Bozic reported any particular information at

21 the morning meeting on that day as to what would happen later that day?

22 A. At the morning meeting, Mr. Bozic said that during the day there

23 would be a large group coming in of detainees. He did not say what kind

24 of detainees or who or anything like that. And he told Ante - that is,

25 Smiljanic - to prepare the guards and to step up the number of guards for

Page 14686

1 them to be able to take in the incoming people.

2 Q. Was anything said by Mr. Bozic around this time whether the

3 regular prison staff would be doing the intaking, intake, taking these

4 people in, or would somebody else be handling that?

5 A. On the occasion Mr. Bozic said -- well, one hour later, at about

6 9.00, that two civilians would be arriving who would take over part of the

7 job of taking in the new arrivals.

8 Q. Do you recall the names of these individuals or any others that

9 joined them at that point in time?

10 A. Biljana Nikic came, and Marko Bevanda, too, and they introduced

11 themselves. They said they were in charge of the detainees.

12 Q. Did they indicate to you from what organisation or agency or

13 authority they came?

14 A. As far as I can remember, they said that they had come there from

15 the Office for Displaced Persons and Refugees and that their boss at the

16 time who knew about this and sent them was Mr. Tadic.

17 Q. Do you happen to recall, if you do, because it may assist us

18 later, do you happen to recall the first name of this Mr. Tadic?

19 A. I can't remember, but I know he was in charge of the displaced

20 persons and refugees attached to the ministry as the number-one man for

21 that.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. And can you tell the Judges then what you and

23 those around you on -- later that morning, what did you actually see

24 happening at the Heliodrom prison? Who was coming? What was did you

25 see?

Page 14687

1 A. That morning when they started to arrive, women, children, and men

2 were coming in, women with children of various age groups.

3 Q. Were you able to observe and can you tell the Judges, if you can,

4 what the ethnicity or from what nation or people these persons were from,

5 the people who were coming to the Heliodrom on the 9th of May?

6 A. They were Muslims. In the words of Biljana Nikic and Marko

7 Bevanda, they had been expelled -- sorry, displaced from the town that

8 was on the front line, so that they could be accommodated and protected

9 there.

10 Q. It may seem obvious to you, sir, but when you say "from the town,"

11 which town are you talking about now?

12 A. I don't know, because I was not in town, and I did not even know

13 about the conflict. I just saw those people and heard about what had

14 happened.

15 Q. Well, either later on the 9th of May or the next day or two

16 thereafter, on the 10th of May, or the 11th of May or the 12th of May, did

17 you ever learn any information as to where these Muslim people were coming

18 from?

19 A. Since they were men, women, and children, it was clear that they

20 were from Mostar, from the area of combat activities, and I didn't

21 inquire.

22 Q. Did you observe any of these people carrying personal belongings

23 as they arrived?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you please tell the Judges how you felt and what your reaction

Page 14688

1 was to seeing these men, women, and children arriving at the Heliodrom

2 prison during those days, the 9th, 10th of May?

3 A. It was an ugly picture. No matter how people were accommodated

4 after being displaced, it was ugly to see them in that building which,

5 after all, was meant to be a prison, and it was a harrowing sight to see

6 women and children behind bars. And that was filmed by cameras, by

7 reporters. It was difficult to watch that, so I didn't go out there much,

8 and I didn't appear in front of the reporters either.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you saw those

10 civilians, including women and children, arrive. You've just said that

11 they were put up in a facility that was meant to be a prison. Who decided

12 to put them up there, because in this vast complex there must have been

13 other possibilities? There was a gym. There were other structures. Why

14 put them in the building that was meant to be a prison? Wasn't it

15 possible to put them up elsewhere in this huge complex?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't answer that question. I

17 think only Mr. Stanko Bozic, who was then warden, could answer it. And

18 Marko Bevanda and Mrs. Biljana Nikic.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't play any role at

20 all?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was inside. I didn't go out

22 once in all those days while that lasted. I was in my office.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why didn't you go out to

24 learn the news, to face this situation that was, after all, rather

25 extraordinary, seeing all these people, civilians, in a military

Page 14689

1 installation? It was a novelty. Didn't you want to find out more?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't want to go out, because it

3 was not in the jurisdiction of either the prison or Stanko Bozic or

4 myself, but the people who had come to that sector. And also because on

5 the first day a woman met me at the entrance and said, "Can you give me

6 some bread for my child?" I simply couldn't stand it. I went back

7 inside.

8 Marko Bevanda and Biljana Nikic were there, who were supposed to

9 take care of it.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I would have a lot of

11 questions to ask you about that, but I don't want to impinge more upon the

12 Prosecution.

13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, in this regard, and perhaps as we look at some of the

15 documentation some additional details may answer some of the Judge's

16 questions, hopefully, if I can ask you to look at Exhibit P 02260. It

17 should be in the same binder that we've been working in, I think.

18 Do you have that, sir?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Document title at least in the English translation, Official Note,

21 dated the 10th of May, 1993, apparently signed by Stanko Bozic. Above

22 that there are three names indicated, Stanko Bozic, Josip Praljak,

23 Snjezana Cvitanovic, and there are also handwritten -- well, there's also

24 what appears to be signatures or handwriting next to those. Is -- the

25 handwriting next to the name Josip Praljak, is that yours?

Page 14690

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you tell us if you know what led Mr. Bozic to prepare the

3 report and why did all they of you sign this particular document?

4 A. Bozic wrote this document for one reason. As people were coming

5 in, Mr. Berislav Pusic started calling. So he received those phone calls

6 asking him to release people -- or, rather, to convey to Biljana and Marko

7 Bevanda the names of people who should be released from the prison or,

8 rather, that admission centre. To make it more precise, since the

9 distance between Heliodrom and Berislav Pusic was great and in order for

10 the releases to be legally valid and all these messages to Biljana Nikic

11 and Marko Bevanda to be in due form, he made this Official Note, citing me

12 and Mrs. Snjezana Cvitanovic as witnesses, confirming that Mr. Berislav

13 Pusic did in fact say that on the telephone.

14 Q. Who did you understand Mr. Berislav Pusic to be as of the 9th of

15 May, 1993? What position, if any, did he hold in the Mostar area, and

16 what can you tell the Judges about him at that time, please?

17 A. I know Mr. Berislav Pusic as an official of the military police

18 from Mostar, and at that time he worked in the administration of the

19 military police.

20 Q. Did you know at that time -- when I say that time I mean the 9th

21 of May or the days thereafter, again the 10th or 11th what have you, did

22 you come to know why it was that Mr. Pusic had this role in calling your

23 office and indicating that certain persons should be released?

24 A. As he was an official of the military police, he had the powers to

25 do that without me giving any thought to who those individuals were.

Page 14691

1 Mr. Josip Marcinko, also called -- Mr. Zvonko Vidovic, and they also got

2 some people released, although in smaller numbers. I believed it was an

3 agreement between them as the criminal investigation service, and I

4 thought it was their right.

5 Q. And approximately how long did this process continue of both

6 people being brought to the prison and people being released pursuant to

7 these telephone calls?

8 A. I cannot say precisely, but I think that within five or six days

9 all the people who had arrived were released.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You signed a document on the

11 10th of May. We see your name, the name of the secretary, and Mr. Bozic.

12 It's a rather unusual document in itself.

13 You were not a novice in matters of the prison. You had already

14 worked in the civilian sector administrating penitentiary institutions.

15 You said that after the MOS attack on town those civilians had been

16 brought to Heliodrom. So far so good.

17 At that moment, Mr. Pusic calls to get some of them released.

18 Very well, but why did you find it necessary to draw up this document?

19 For what purpose? To protect you in the future? Or to indicate to the

20 military police hierarchy that you had obeyed orders? There must have

21 been a purpose.

22 You declared that you will speak the whole truth. Could you

23 please explain the purpose of this document, because Mr. Bozic made you

24 co-sign it. He didn't take just anybody. He took the deputy, because you

25 were on record as the deputy. Why did you co-sign it, to protect

Page 14692

1 yourself, or for what reason? Because every signature implies some

2 responsibility. It entails some consequences, and you must know that

3 since you worked in prisons. Explain to us, please, why you signed this

4 document.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not write this document. It

6 was written by Mr. Stanko Bozic. He knows why he wrote it. And I know

7 that I was present throughout that time in one office, because our office

8 was being used by Mr. Marko Bevanda, and we were together all the time in

9 Snjezana's office. In my opinion, Mr. Stanko Bozic was trying to protect

10 himself. And in this case I was just present there, because I would also

11 answer some of those calls. I received some of those calls by Berislav

12 Pusic instructing us to release some people. Snjezana did and Mr. Bozic

13 did too.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you said you answered those

15 calls. That means you talked to Berislav Pusic on the phone?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what did he say?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He would just read out the names. I

19 would write them down and hand them over to Biljana Nikic and Marko

20 Bevanda. We would just hand the lists.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he read out those names

22 it was an order that was not subject to any challenge. You only had to

23 execute.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what was so extraordinary

Page 14693

1 about saying that civilians needed to be released? That kind of order was

2 the most normal under the circumstances. And if you say Mr. Bozic wanted

3 to protect himself, protect himself from what?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I couldn't answer

5 that. I tried to explain earlier and I can repeat it. It's possibly

6 because it was all done by telephone, because the same day a report would

7 be written by the people whom Mr. Berislav had released.


9 Q. Sir, during the --

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Excuse me. The last thing you have said

11 according to the record, "it's possibly because it was all done by

12 telephone, because the same day a report would be written by the people

13 whom Mr. Berislav had released." That is probably not what you wanted to

14 say. It would be strange if those who are released would write a report.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not the people but

16 Mr. Stanko Bozic.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


19 Q. Sir, as these released -- did these releases then begin happening

20 at some volume? I mean, are we talking about one or two, or are we

21 talking about hundreds?

22 A. By telephone, smaller groups of people would be dictated, five to

23 10, sometimes individuals only.

24 Q. Let me ask you this before I ask you to look at a couple of

25 documents. When people would be -- well, let's -- were people in fact

Page 14694

1 released pursuant to Mr. Pusic's request? That is, we've heard about the

2 request, but did prisoners actually walk out or leave the complex? Were

3 they released based upon Mr. Pusic's authorisation? Or did they --

4 A. They were released.

5 Q. And when they were released did they simply walk out on their own

6 two legs, or did someone come and collect them, or how did that work?

7 A. No. At that time one couldn't just walk out. They were always

8 escorted out and admitted.

9 Q. Because of the numbers of releases that were being done, can you

10 tell the Judges, was some sort of a form or a standard written document

11 prepared that would be executed when various people would be authorised

12 for released -- and released?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look in your bundle at Exhibit P 02278.

15 And if you have that, sir, can I simply ask you, is that representative of

16 the type of document that you saw being prepared around the 9th, 10th,

17 11th of May, around that time, in connection with the release of people

18 who had been held at the prison facility?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can I ask you next to look at 2285?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.

22 Witness, you signed a document that we've just seen where it is

23 said that civilians were going to Heliodrom follow a MOS attack. That is

24 understandable. The desire was to protect the civilians and shelter them.

25 But in this document I see the addressee is the chief of the crime

Page 14695

1 prevention service. Why? Why inform the chief of the crime prevention

2 service that three members of the Baralija family were released? It's

3 either because these people were being sheltered from combat activities or

4 the chief of the crime prevention service was alerted to their presence.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only suppose we had no one

6 else to send our reports to, only the crime prevention service chief, or

7 the chief of the military police, who is our superior.


9 Q. In that -- in that regard, sir, if I can direct your attention to

10 the next document in your bundle, which is 2285. Document signed by

11 Mr. Bozic or at least bearing his name dated the 11th of May, 1993. This

12 indicates -- appears to indicate that a person named Jugo was released at

13 the intervention of Mr. Berko Pusic and Mr. Valentin Coric. Can you tell

14 us, if you know, what role Mr. Coric played in having these people

15 released on the 9th, 10th, 11th of May?

16 A. As for these releases, I would not like to comment because I

17 really don't know. I believe it is a rare occasion to see such reports

18 where Mr. Valentin Coric took part, but I suppose Mr. Stanko Bozic would

19 know, because he co-signed it. He signed it, in fact.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, one of the things we hope to accomplish

21 with this witness in the course of his testimony is to confirm that the

22 documents that we're looking at are just a few representative documents

23 but in fact there's a large number, and that's why there are other large

24 binders.

25 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that, and didn't you have a chance to review

Page 14696

1 in the past day or so a number of the same documents released from the

2 Heliodrom 9th, 10th, and 11th of May and following? Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to the next document, which is

5 Exhibit P 02315. Sir, this is a document dated the 11th of May, 1993. It

6 ultimately lists approximately, I think, 106 individuals. Can I please

7 direct your attention to the upper right quadrant of the first page.

8 Do you see any handwriting on that document that is yours?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it your handwriting that says: "13 May 1993, as per order of

11 Berko Pusic, nobody can release," underline "release," "persons's whose

12 names are circled." "Josip Praljak" signed; is that correct?

13 And on the language, the original version in your own language,

14 are there a number of names that go on throughout the 106 names? Are

15 their various names that are circled?

16 MR. SCOTT: And I think in the English version, Your Honour, the

17 number has been underlined. So number 3, number 4, number 5.

18 Q. Sir, can I just ask you to confirm, is number -- is the person

19 number listed as number 3, is that person circled?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Just one more as an example. Person number 7. Is that -- in your

22 list, is it circled?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, did you get this information from Mr. Pusic - excuse me - on

25 the telephone?

Page 14697

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So can the judges understand correctly then that you were on the

3 telephone with Mr. Pusic, and he was telling you to go through this list

4 and circle the names of persons who should not be released?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges usually always

8 understand in the proper way, but perhaps -- you can't assume that we

9 understand incorrectly.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand the point. Let

11 me restate my question.

12 Q. Sir, is that what happened, that you were on the telephone with

13 Mr. Pusic and he was telling it you which of the names on this list to

14 circle? Or if it happened some other way, tell it us.

15 A. Now, the circled individuals -- well, I don't circle people like

16 this. But as this was in 1993, after all, I think that this document was

17 brought to me and that I put arrows for the people as it says here and

18 just wrote "Remain," or not.

19 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps the interpreters could assist us. If we can

20 put the original language version on the ELMO so that the interpreters can

21 see it.

22 In the English version the word is interpreted "encircled." I

23 maybe it's a mistranslation.

24 If we could just take it out of his binder, perhaps, in the B/C/S

25 and put it on the ELMO so the interpreters can see it. 2315. 2315. If

Page 14698

1 it's a matter of dispute.

2 Q. If I can ask, please, the assistance of the language -- one the

3 language booths, if you could read out -- if someone could interpret what

4 is written in the Croatian language here and read that out to what -- your

5 interpretation of that?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The simplest thing would be,

7 Witness, for you to read out the sentence written in handwriting,

8 handwritten, in your own language, and as you're reading it out the

9 interpreters can interpret. What does it say?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "According to the orders of

11 Mr. Berko Pusic, the circled individuals cannot be released by anybody."

12 "Encircled."


14 Q. And going back to what -- your testimony a moment ago -- so are

15 you telling us then, please -- either way, just tell us as best you can

16 recall, please, did you receive the document with the names already

17 circled, or did you circle them as you were receiving information from

18 somebody else?

19 A. As I know my own handwriting, I don't think I circled them,

20 whereas I did write what it says next to that.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't want to

22 intervene before, but Mr. Scott is sort of organising the scenario,

23 whereas I think we should allow the witness to say how this note came

24 about, how he encircled the names or whatever.

25 MR. SCOTT: Exactly the question I just put, Your Honour.

Page 14699

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as far as you remember

2 tell us how all this came about. How were you taken -- how did you come

3 to be -- how did you come to write this in your own hand and sign it? And

4 how the names were circled, could you be more specific?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document, which is signed at

6 the end by Dr. Ante Kvesic, the commander of the regional war hospital,

7 this is a list of his workers and their families. On this list is

8 Mr. Berko, as it says -- Mr. Berko said that the persons encircled cannot

9 be released by anyone.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To summarise the situation as

11 far as I understand it, the doctor who signed this document indicated that

12 a number of individuals who worked for him in his services, the internal

13 medicine services or pulmonology or gynaecology or whatever, that they

14 were at Heliodrom, and then he explains that these people were taken from

15 their apartments and taken away from their apartments. He doesn't say to

16 Heliodrom, but one understands it was to Heliodrom. And then he provides

17 a list.

18 Now, a priori we can think that this -- one could think that this

19 list was compiled so that these people could be released, because since

20 they work in the medical department their presence is necessary for the

21 public hospital to continue functioning. And it seems that on the basis

22 of what you're telling us that Mr. Pusic has launched an appeal and says

23 that on that list there are persons that should not be released, that is

24 to say number 3, 4, 5, et cetera. So is that what happened? Is that how

25 it happened?

Page 14700

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd just like to say this: I've

2 looked through the list and I noticed something. I noticed that, for

3 example, under number 74, Djudja Dzemal is the name under 74, a doctor who

4 was still working in Mostar to this day, was never in prison, because I

5 would see him in Siroki where he lived at my cousin's place.

6 So I can't tell you much about this list. I can't tell you much

7 about all these people on the list.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Just to clarify, Mr. Praljak. You were speaking

9 of your cousin's place. One of your cousins is present in this room. Was

10 it this cousin or was it another cousin?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was another cousin, Grbesic

12 Nikola, who lives in Siroki Brijeg.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of what you said,

14 wouldn't this be a recapitulation of the people who were taken away from

15 their apartments but without all of them being in Heliodrom? And here you

16 quoted the example of number 74 who was never at Heliodrom. Would that be

17 an explanation of this list?

18 You're nodding, but will you say yes? Da, in your own language?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't explain it any other

20 way, because here the names 3, 4 and 5, Dr. Hadziomerovic, for instance,

21 also a doctor from Mostar, and this is his family, another well-known

22 doctor, it says should remain.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How come Mr. Pusic is saying

24 that these people should not be released, whereas they weren't there in

25 the first place? So couldn't you say, or Mr. Bozic say, that those people

Page 14701

1 weren't in fact there in the first place?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all the people on the list,

3 the ones who are circled or not, we didn't know whether they were in

4 prison or not. It was the people who listed them who knew and who took

5 care of them. This is just a list of names circled. But whether they

6 were there or not I can't say. I gave you an example of one man who I

7 knew was not there.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you've given us a plausible

9 explanation.

10 Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: I note -- I note the time, Your Honour, but perhaps we

12 should take the break.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I didn't see that time was

14 getting on. Let's take a break and reconvene at five past 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.


19 Q. Sir, before we move forward from this particular series of

20 documents, could I just ask you, you've now made several references to

21 contact with Mr. Pusic and people being released on Mr. Pusic's

22 authorisation. Can you explain to the Judges, please, why you and

23 Mr. Bozic and others apparently followed Mr. Pusic's instructions? Did

24 you consider not -- not doing what he was, according to this evidence,

25 telling you to do?

Page 14702

1 A. We followed his instructions, the instructions of Mr. Berislav

2 Pusic, because he was in the administration of the military police,

3 working in the crime investigation department.

4 Q. Did you consider him to be your superior for these purposes?

5 A. He wasn't directly superior to us, but he did have the right as

6 somebody in the military police administration crime department to issue

7 orders to us.

8 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look the next at Exhibit P 02321. It

9 should be the next one in your bundle, please.

10 Now, this document appears to have been prepared for the signature

11 of Mr. Bozic, but is it correct, sir, it's -- that you're the one that in

12 fact signed it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And do you recall whether this person named Simunovic came and

15 actually collected these people, or is that what this document would

16 indicate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in fact, to the left of your signature do we understand

19 correctly that on picking up and collecting this individual or these

20 individuals Mr. Simunovic signed the document? Is that how it worked?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at 2368. And once again is that

23 actually your signature on the document, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And if we understand the document correctly, then in this

Page 14703

1 instance - excuse me - it was Mr. Zelenovic [sic] who collected these

2 people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is Mr. Zelenovic [sic] a prominent attorney in Mostar? Perhaps

5 I'm mistaken, but if I am, I'm sure you'll correct me.

6 A. On the document that I'm looking at there's Predrag Leventic.

7 Q. And down at the end of the document there appears to be a place

8 where Mr. Nuzimevid -- Muslinovic signed the document. My apology. I've

9 been corrected.

10 MR. SCOTT: It's not on the -- I apologise, Your Honour. It's not

11 on the original document, which I had noted previously but I forgot.

12 Q. Did you -- can you tell the Judges, did you see any pattern of the

13 people who were being released, any types of people, any groups of people

14 or can you assist the Judges at all with what you saw?

15 A. I don't think there was any selection from among the people. I

16 think that he knew the people, Mr. Predrag Leventic, that is, and he asked

17 them to be taken out, and Mr. Berko allowed that to happen.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is a good

19 moment. There's a general mistake on page 79, line 1. It says that these

20 people were collected. It says who collected these people. Now, from the

21 document it would emerge that they be released. So quite the opposite.

22 Not collected but released.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I'm the source of the confusion, I

24 apologise. What I'd asked Mr. Praljak earlier today is that when the

25 people were released did they simply walk out on the street or did someone

Page 14704

1 come and collect them, in that sense, and that's the -- pick them up. So

2 sorry, that's another terminology.

3 I'll ask the witness again, if it assists.

4 Q. Sir, if you go back to the line of counsel's question, if I can

5 ask you to go back to 2321, the document we were looking at a moment ago.

6 I think you testified to this, but in light -- again, in light of

7 counsel's question.

8 On 2321, yes, when -- it bears the -- the -- excuse me, the

9 signature there of Mr. Simunovic, and over that at least it's translated,

10 it says "Taken over by." Did you understand that to mean that it was

11 Mr. Simunovic who picked up the people being released?

12 A. Yes. And he signed for them, signed for having taken them over.

13 Q. Very well. Could I ask you next, please, to look at Exhibit P

14 02853. Do you have that? It may be several down. You'll have to find

15 the number. 2853.

16 If you have that, sir, is this a report by Mr. Bozic to

17 Mr. Valentin Coric dated the 19th of June, 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do we understand correctly that the document says this is the

20 report for the month of May 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell the Judges, was that the practice that Mr. Bozic

23 would make a report for each month to Mr. Coric?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Looking at the first sentence -- well, let me -- before I ask you

Page 14705

1 did you ever -- did you or Mr. Bozic or any of you at the Heliodrom prison

2 during this first part of May, first half of May or so, 1993, did you ever

3 come up with a number of how many people were brought into the Heliodrom

4 around the 9th, 10th, 11th of May in the way that you've described us --

5 to us this afternoon?

6 A. Records of arrival were kept by Marko Bevanda and Biljana Nikic.

7 And if I might be allowed to say, since Bozic wrote this report, that it

8 went through -- that 1.820 displaced persons went through the

9 institution.

10 Q. Do you accept that as a fair number or at least estimate of how

11 many people did in fact go to the institution at that time?

12 A. There's no reason for Mr. Bozic to think that up, to invent that.

13 Q. All right. And can I ask you, please, to go next to Exhibit --

14 MR. SCOTT: Before I do, Your Honour, I'm told that the next

15 exhibit -- if we go to private session for a moment, please.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14706











11 Page 14706 redacted. Private session















Page 14707

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.


4 Q. Sir, now I'm directing your attention specifically to the 30th of

5 June, 1993, and in a similar fashion to when I asked you about the 9th of

6 May, do you recall during the morning meeting on the 30th of June whether

7 Mr. Bozic reported that something would be happening that day?

8 A. That morning Mr. Bozic said that a large group would be arriving

9 at Heliodrom. He didn't explain anything. He didn't say who or why, just

10 like he did on the 9th of May.

11 Q. Did he provide any more information about the identity of the

12 people who would be - excuse me - arriving?

13 A. No, he didn't tell us anything.

14 Q. And what happened later that day and in the days that followed?

15 A. They started arriving. Large groups began to arrive, groups of

16 people who came to the prison.

17 Q. And were these groups similar to those that had come on the 9th

18 and 10th of May or were they different?

19 A. No. There were no women and children, just men.

20 Q. And were you able to determine at the time or did you come to know

21 the ethnicity of the men who were being brought to the Heliodrom prison on

22 the 30th of June and thereafter?

23 A. They were Muslims, Muslim men.

24 Q. And did you sometime after those days in early -- well, early

25 July 1993, did you ever come to have a number -- we were looking at a

Page 14708

1 number a few minutes ago for May. Did you ever come to have a number of

2 how many Muslim men were brought into the Heliodrom in the first part of

3 July 1993?

4 A. We never established the number of people who arrived, because

5 that job, the job of taking them in and registering them, registering

6 those who were arriving, was done by 10 to 12 employees of the MUP, of the

7 military police, of the SIS, with Zvonko Vidovic at its head.

8 Q. All right. Before I come, follow up on those particular answers,

9 when you received prisoners around this -- "you" being the Heliodrom, did

10 it come to the point that the prison, what we've called the prison

11 building, came to capacity, was filled to capacity?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is it correct, sir, that as you told us earlier this afternoon

14 that it was on this occasion that -- where the school was first used to

15 house prisoners and then the sports hall?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges more what was said or understood by

18 you as to the role of Mr. Zvonko Vidovic in doing the intake or reception

19 of these people who were coming to the Heliodrom prison at this time?

20 A. Mr. Zvonko Vidovic informed Mr. Stanko Bozic, and I was present,

21 that all the registration and taking over of the people who had arrived

22 would be carried out by his people and that they would compile a complete

23 list of the people brought in, which list would be handed over to the

24 prison.

25 Q. Was any explanation offered to you or to Mr. Bozic, and you said

Page 14709

1 you were present, as to why this different group of people would be

2 involved in this process as opposed to the regular staff at the prison?

3 A. He didn't provide an explanation. He just took it upon himself to

4 do that because he had the authority to.

5 Q. Could I ask you, please, to look at exhibit, in your bundle, 3040.

6 Sir, can you tell us by looking at this document, which appears to be

7 dated on the top of the first page the 30th of June, 1993. Does this

8 appear -- well, can you tell us what that document is, if you recognise

9 it?

10 A. This is a document compiled by one of the employers -- employees

11 from the team led by Zvonko Vidovic, and this can be seen at the end of

12 the document, and that person was Stjepan.

13 Q. And can you tell the Judges -- I didn't ask you. Perhaps you can

14 tell us a little more about who Zvonko Vidovic was and what position he

15 held as of the end of June, early July 1993.

16 A. Zvonko Vidovic was a criminal investigations officer in the

17 military police. I don't know exactly when he was appointed chief of the

18 crime investigations service in the administration of the military police,

19 but it was around that time.

20 Q. Was he -- when you say chief of criminal investigations, was that

21 a like a department or a particular section of the military police

22 administration?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And if you know or can you tell us from either because of direct

25 knowledge or because of your knowledge of the structure of the military

Page 14710

1 police administration who was Mr. Vidovic's superior? As a department

2 head, who did he report to?

3 A. The chief of the military police administration.

4 Q. Who was the chief of military police administration in July

5 1993?

6 A. I think it was Mr. Valentin Coric.

7 Q. Did you or Mr. Bozic ever raise with Mr. Vidovic whether these

8 lists were adequate or appropriate, provided you with the information you

9 needed to manage these people?

10 A. We didn't have any information, so that Mr. Bozic made our

11 internal list of detainees so that he could order meals and food.

12 Q. Do you recall how long it was before Mr. Bozic obtained --

13 prepared these separate lists, the lists separate from Mr. Vidovic and his

14 group prepared?

15 A. It was a long time before Mr. Vidovic, after being warned by

16 Mr. Bozic, submitted these lists. Until then we didn't have them.

17 Q. Several hours ago the President was asking you questions about

18 whether people were prisoner of war, whether they were civilians, whether

19 they were military, disciplinary detainees. Did you -- did anyone at the

20 prison during June 1993 know the categories or classification of any of

21 these people, to your knowledge?

22 A. As for knowledge, Mr. Vidovic and his men from the crime

23 investigations service and the SIS processed every single one of them and

24 only they knew who were the military prisoners, in fact prisoners of war,

25 and we found out only in June when only prisoners of war were left in the

Page 14711

1 prison. Until then we didn't know.

2 Q. When you said you found out in June, in June of what year?

3 A. 1993.

4 Q. I'm not following you, sir. You're saying that all -- all the

5 other people -- everyone was taken out of the prison except the prisoners

6 of war in June 1993?

7 A. In June 1993, all those who were brought on the 9th of May were

8 released, and then all military detainees remained until the 30th of June

9 when new people were brought in.

10 Q. All right. Well, let's be sure that our terminology -- we are an

11 agreeing on terminology. When you say military detainees - I'm looking

12 at the transcript - when you use that terminology, are you talking about

13 member of the HVO who were being -- who were subject to some sort of a

14 disciplinary action?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. I want to make sure I'm following you. So are you

17 saying -- do we understand you to be saying that at the end of June all of

18 those persons were taken out of the Heliodrom prison?

19 A. I thought I was clear enough.

20 Q. Sorry.

21 A. When the people, in fact women and children left on the 9th of

22 May, only one category of prisoners were left, military detainees and

23 military prisoners.

24 Q. All right. Let me come at it from a different direction. Let's

25 jump ahead a month and see if we can get any further -- at the end of

Page 14712

1 July, 1993, who was being held at the Heliodrom prison? Were they all

2 prisoners of war, or was there a mixture, or what can you tell us?

3 A. In the prison there was still physical separation between military

4 prisoners and prisoners of war. They were physically separated.

5 Q. At what time?

6 A. After the 30th of June.

7 Q. Did you ever receive lists from Mr. Vidovic of the list -- the

8 copies of the list that he and his group had made? I know you told us

9 that Mr. Bozic later had other lists prepared, but my question to you now

10 is: Did you ever receive the list that Mr. Vidovic and his group

11 prepared?

12 A. If the list was received, it was received in May. Sorry, in

13 September. Then, in September we got a list of all those who would remain

14 and against whom a criminal report was filed. The others -- in fact other

15 lists were received when those prisoners of war were released, so that we

16 had that it at our disposal.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be told that he can speak in

18 normal sentences. He doesn't have to cut them into little bits and

19 pieces.


21 Q. Well, let me just ask you, sir, was this -- did this happen in

22 September or December of 1993, the releases that you're talking about

23 now?

24 A. I think it happened in September.

25 Q. Can you tell us, please, did there -- we talked about the releases

Page 14713

1 that took place after the 9th of May, and we looked at a number of

2 documents about -- in connection with the people being released after the

3 9th of May. Was there a similar procedure or any procedure for the

4 release of individual prisoners who were brought in around the 30th of

5 June, 1993, and thereafter?

6 A. These prisoners of war were released in a different way than

7 before. On that occasion, the release was handled by the crime

8 investigations service, the SIS, and the signatory was the head of the

9 exchange office, Mr. Berislav Pusic. And most documents on release were

10 issued that way.

11 Q. All right. Can you tell us a bit more of what various approvals

12 or -- yes, let me say that. What approvals were required, to your

13 knowledge, to have a prisoner released from the Heliodrom in July, August

14 1993? You can just walk us through whatever steps were taken, if you can

15 help us, please.

16 A. The document that would reach us in the prison was formulated like

17 this, approximately: "There is no reason to hold the prisoner of war

18 such-and-such," and it would be signed by Miroslav Music on behalf of the

19 SIS and Zvonko Vidovic on behalf of the crime investigation service. They

20 would issue approvals enabling Mr. Berko Pusic to release somebody. I

21 believe without these two signatures above, Mr. Berislav Pusic would have

22 been unable to release anyone.

23 Q. And you said a few moments ago that it required the head of the

24 exchange office, and I think you actually did wind up saying it here,

25 sorry, I do see it on page 89. Do you know what the function of the

Page 14714

1 exchange office, what you've described as the exchange office, what the

2 functions or operations of that particular office was?

3 A. The head of that office for exchange, Mr. Berislav Pusic, probably

4 effected exchanges and releases of prisoners of war ex officio, and that

5 speaks enough about the office itself.

6 Q. Can I ask you, when you say in that context "ex officio" or at

7 least what's transcribed ex officio, what do you mean?

8 A. Mr. Berislav Pusic, as head of that office for exchange, took care

9 of the prisoners of war and was aware of each and every prisoner of war

10 who was brought to Heliodrom or was already held there.

11 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at Exhibit P 04379.

12 A. I can't find it.

13 Q. 4379. Thank you. If you have that now, Mr. Praljak, can you tell

14 us what that document is?

15 A. Yes. That's the document that I described a moment ago. In fact,

16 I described a moment ago the way in which a prisoner of war was released.

17 Q. This -- at the top of the document it says "Personally to the

18 warden of the military detention --" or "VIZ," leave it at that, "Stanko

19 Bozic."

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall how these documents would be transmitted to

22 Mr. Bozic and to your office at the Heliodrom?

23 A. Most of these documents were brought by officials probably of the

24 office for exchange. Mr. Jerko Radic was the one who came most often,

25 and Tomo Sakota. I think he was the one who spent the most time down

Page 14715

1 there.

2 Q. Is this document we're looking at now, 4379, would you consider

3 that to be representative of the type of document that was used during

4 this time period for the release of prisoners?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In fact, sir, when you look at the form in the original language,

7 is it fair to say that the document itself looks like a form with certain

8 blanks that would indeed be filled in when the document was used on

9 various occasions?

10 A. I couldn't say that, because after all these approvals were issued

11 in the office of Berislav Pusic or Zvonko Vidovic or a third person,

12 Music. I can't really say, because I only received them when they were

13 already filled in and reached us at the prison.

14 Q. Very well. Can you tell us anything more about the relationship

15 between - if any - between Mr. Vidovic and Mr. Pusic, if you know? I mean

16 in terms it of the working relationship, any experiences you had in

17 working with the two of them together?

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to object

19 to this kind of question, because this witness cannot tell us about the

20 relationship between Mr. Vidovic and Mr. Pusic. He can tell us about his

21 relationship with Mr. Pusic.

22 MR. SCOTT: That's just simply not true, Your Honour. He may have

23 firsthand knowledge of the relationship between the two of them. He may

24 know, and I have reason to think that he does know. So if he can

25 remember. If he doesn't remember, I'll certainly pass on.

Page 14716

1 Q. But, sir, can you tell us about any relationship you know of

2 between --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you answer this

4 question?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know both Mr. Zvonko Vidovic and

6 Mr. Berko Pusic, and I still know them today. Both Zvonko Vidovic in

7 Mostar who meets with me occasionally. I don't know what I'm supposed to

8 say. What are you interested in?


10 Q. My question was the relationship, if you knew, between Mr. Pusic

11 Vidovic at that time. Were they close friends? Did they associate

12 frequently? Did they have family relations?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may -- if I may assist in the

14 objection before that. It presupposes that they had a relationship. The

15 form of the question has an element of -- of -- that there was a

16 relationship. I think if it was rephrased: Was there a relationship? If

17 so ...

18 MR. SCOTT: I'll rephrase it, Your Honour. It's late in the day

19 but I'm happy to.

20 Q. Sir, do you know of any relationship between Mr. Vidovic and

21 Mr. Pusic during the time that these events were occurring in 1993?

22 A. Zvonko Vidovic and Mr. Berislav Pusic both worked at the military

23 police as investigators in the crime prevention service, and of course in

24 their line of work they were close. And of course anybody, including

25 myself, with Mr. Stanko would be close to somebody who's working with

Page 14717

1 them.

2 Q. Was there any family relationship between the two of them and

3 their families?

4 A. I don't know about family affairs. I wouldn't like to discuss

5 that. That could be misunderstood, and it would lead us astray. I don't

6 think we should go into family matters, at least not before this Court.

7 Q. Very well. Let me ask you about -- after these men were brought

8 in and processed by Mr. Vidovic and his group, the MUP, military police,

9 SIS, can you tell the Judges whether these prisoners were interrogated?

10 A. I couldn't confirm. All I know is that the processing was done by

11 those 10 or 12 people led by Mr. Vidovic, and it's probable that at the

12 end when they made the triage and identified who the prisoners of war were

13 they had to reinterrogate them.

14 Q. Sir, you were working at the Heliodrom prison during this time

15 period. After these people were taken in by Mr. Vidovic and the others,

16 were SIS -- members of SIS, the military police, others coming on a

17 regular basis to the Heliodrom to interrogate prisoners there?

18 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise

19 but I have to interject. Maybe there is a misunderstanding due to

20 interpretation, but he didn't say of that he was -- that these people were

21 brought to Heliodrom by Mr. Vidovic and the others. He said they were

22 listed and processed by Mr. Vidovic and others, but no more.

23 MR. SCOTT: Maybe it was translation, Your Honour; I'm sorry, but

24 I think it was clear.

25 Q. The people that were brought in and processed by Mr. Vidovic and

Page 14718

1 others, sir, can you tell us whether these men were interrogated at the

2 Heliodrom after that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether they were all --

5 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry, my learned

6 friend. I believe there is a mistake in the record, but even now the

7 record says "brought in by Vidovic" and "listed by Vidovic." Maybe you

8 could divide your question into two parts to divide those who were brought

9 in on the 30th of June and then listed, because the transcript remains

10 wrong and it's important for later.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please make that more

12 precise?

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

14 Q. Sir, the prisoners that were brought in on the 30th of June and

15 thereafter, were they interrogated?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. By who? What --

18 A. Zvonko Vidovic with his group of 10 to 12 men.

19 Q. And do you know whether they were all interrogated at the

20 Heliodrom, or can you tell the Judges whether people were also taken away

21 to other locations and interrogated?

22 A. A smaller number of people, as we can see from the records, were

23 taken away by the SIS for interrogation. Most of them, however, were

24 interrogated at the Heliodrom.

25 Q. And what -- how would the arrangements be made -- excuse me. How

Page 14719

1 would the arrangements be made for the purposes of taking prisoners away

2 from the Heliodrom for purposes of interrogation? Who had to sign off on

3 that? What kind of a record was made?

4 A. There was a paper trail, an order from the commander or the chief,

5 what's his name, in the SIS, Mr. Ivo Lucic or Mr. Zvonko Sesar, ordering

6 the prison that persons such-and-such would be taken over by an officer of

7 the SIS, and that the same officer would conduct an interview with the

8 named person, who would then be returned to the prison.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: While there's a small break, can you tell us do

10 you know where such persons were taken for interrogation?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only suppose, because they had

12 their own building and their own premises where they did their job. We

13 were not able to know that.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, looking at the clock, I'm about to turn

16 to a new document, and I'm not sure I will be able to finish it in the

17 next two minutes, so I wonder if we might break.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to

19 adjourn. I believe that by and large you have used up two hours, so you

20 have four hours to go. In fact, you have used two hours, 29 minutes.

21 That's what the registrar tells me. I thought it was less. So tomorrow

22 you have, on balance, around four hours, and you have to complete your

23 examination-in-chief tomorrow.

24 Witness, we are coming back to this courtroom tomorrow morning at

25 9.00 a.m. Not in this courtroom but courtroom number III. And I hope

Page 14720

1 that these many kilos of documents will be moved to the third -- to the

2 second floor. So until tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day

5 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.