Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14721

1 Tuesday, 27 February 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness enters court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Case

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are on Tuesday,

10 27 February 2007.

11 Welcome, Witness. We are going to continue our work and without

12 wasting any more time, I'll give the floor to Mr. Registrar if there are

13 any IC numbers. There are none.

14 Mr. Scott.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, and to

18 everyone in the courtroom.

19 Examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Praljak. Sir, if I could just go back and pick

21 up on a couple of points from yesterday, please, before moving forward.

22 Returning to the 9th of May for one question or two, of 1993, the people

23 who were -- that came to the Heliodrom prison that day and the days

24 thereafter, can you tell the Judges whether any of the people who came --

25 who came or were brought to the prison during that time, were any of them

Page 14722

1 Serbs or Croats, to your knowledge?

2 A. There were only Muslims in that group -- in those groups.

3 Q. We also discussed yesterday about the classification or separation

4 of the prisoners that were brought to the Heliodrom from the 30th of June

5 forward.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if I recall correctly, or can you tell us -- let me just ask

8 it this way: Can you tell us when you recall -- first, you or Mr. Bozic

9 first having any list that separated the various persons who were being

10 held at the Heliodrom prison after the 30th of June 1993, when you first

11 had any list that separated these people into different categories as

12 either military detainees in a way we were using the term yesterday or as

13 prisoners of war or as civilians? When did you first have any such list

14 that you felt was reliable or something that you could actually use to

15 administer the prison?

16 A. I think in the middle of September when there were massive

17 releases and when everybody was released except those against whom

18 criminal reports had been filed, that was the first time when we had those

19 people as prisoners of war.

20 Q. Sir, when we talked about the -- these large releases, the massive

21 release is the term you just used, are you talking about that in

22 association with the time when various of the HVO prison camps were closed

23 at the end of 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. You keep mentioning the word -- the month September.

Page 14723

1 Sir, can I ask you just again thinking -- think on that further. Did that

2 happen in September or in December?

3 A. Larger releases began towards the end. I can't tell you the exact

4 month, but I know it was towards the end of the year. I think it was in

5 October, November. That's when the largest numbers were released.

6 Q. All right. Well, perhaps we'll come back to that with some

7 specific documents as we continue on with your testimony.

8 Now, I have a similar question for you. Apart from the list, the

9 preparation of the list that were done as to categories or classification

10 of prisoners, my next question is related not to the listing but to the

11 actual treatment of the prisoners in terms of whether they were maintained

12 separately, held separately at various parts of the complex after the 30th

13 of June, 1993, and just as a refresher from yesterday, we're talking about

14 the prison building, the school, and the sports hall. So keeping those

15 three buildings in mind, can you tell us at what point, if at any time,

16 during 1993 the different categories of prisoners, military detainees,

17 prisoners of war, civilians, were held and administered separately?

18 A. Throughout the time. First of all, I'd like to focus on the

19 prison building. There was a separate area that was physically separated,

20 housing military detainees and prisoners. In that other part of the

21 building there were prisoners of war.

22 Q. And how about --

23 A. And at the top of the building there were several women who were

24 again physically separated.

25 Q. All right. And how about at the school?

Page 14724

1 A. The school was a building that was not created as a prison, so

2 that the premises were used to accommodate them. And there was also an

3 infirmary there where two Muslim doctors worked. Plus, the building was

4 fitted with bathrooms and toilets and running water.

5 The third building or, rather, gyms and halls were right next to

6 the school building. Again, those premises were not created as a prison.

7 They were just used to put up the people that had been brought in. In the

8 gym, again, there was running water, a toilet, a bathroom throughout.

9 Q. All right. Let me -- let me stop you there, sir. As to each of

10 the two other buildings, the -- let's start first again with the school.

11 My specific question was: Was only one category of prisoners, the types

12 of persons we were discussing earlier this morning, was only one type of

13 prisoner held at the school or were there various types of prisoners held

14 at the school?

15 A. At the school only one category of people were kept, those who

16 were brought in after the 30th of June.

17 Q. And among those people -- was there a classification of the people

18 brought in after the 30th of June as detainees, prisoners of war, or

19 civilians?

20 A. We at the prison were not aware of who was a prisoner of war and

21 who was a civilian.

22 Q. And can I ask the similar question, then, about the sports hall.

23 Were those people all of one -- were those prisoners, the people being

24 held -- let me use a general term. The people that were being held there,

25 were they of one category or was there any separation or classification of

Page 14725

1 the people held in the sports hall?

2 A. No. It was the same as in the school building.

3 Q. And these are the people -- is it correct from what you told us

4 yesterday, the people in particular in the school building and in the

5 sports hall were those that were separately received and processed by

6 Mr. Vidovic and his group around the 30th of June; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And just before we move on, since you touched on it,

9 you said there were two Muslim physicians or medical people at the school.

10 Is it correct, sir, that these Muslims were themselves detainees or

11 prisoners?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, sir, if we can go forward, and if I could direct

14 your attention to Exhibit P 03411. We were talking -- we ended the day

15 yesterday talking about the interrogation of prisoners. Do you have that,

16 please?

17 A. Could you give me the number, please?

18 Q. Yes, of course. 3411. If you have that, sir, can you just look

19 at that for a moment and tell the Judges what this document is, please.

20 Do you recall, sir, that around the 12th of July, 1993, some new

21 procedures were put in place concerning people held at the Heliodrom?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And this document, Exhibit P 03411, does that set out as you best

24 recall it what those procedures were at that time, or the rules, if you

25 will?

Page 14726

1 A. After Zvonko Vidovic was appointed from the crime prevention

2 service, and after he wrote his instructions, I think this was complied

3 with except in exceptional situations.

4 Q. Around this time, did you also have any knowledge of or

5 involvement with a man named Zara Pavlovic?

6 A. I did not know Zara Pavlovic, but I heard from Mr. Stanko Bozic

7 about Zarko Pavlovic, concerning the releases he made and his powers, that

8 he was in charge of the area of Capljina, and that he was authorised for

9 those prisoners as far as their releases were concerned and as far as

10 future work was concerned.

11 Q. And so the record is clear, when I hear you say he was responsible

12 for those prisoners, are you saying he was responsible for the prisoners

13 coming from the Capljina area?

14 A. He was not in charge inside the prison, but he was in charge of

15 further procedure and of all decisions concerning them.

16 Q. And did you know from what organisation or authority Mr. Pavlovic

17 came from?

18 A. I think it was an official of the SIS or perhaps the crime

19 prevention service, one of these two.

20 Q. Now, moving forward, did you also -- can you tell the Judges

21 whether you also heard at this time, as these procedures were being put in

22 place, what the continuing role of Mr. Pusic, Berislav Pusic, would be in

23 connection with the release of prisoners, things we were talking about

24 yesterday afternoon?

25 A. Mr. Berislav Pusic was an official of the military police

Page 14727

1 administration until I think July when he was appointed head of the office

2 for exchanges.

3 Q. And what role after that point, after his -- after he became the

4 head of the office for exchange, what was his role in the release of

5 prisoners from the Heliodrom?

6 A. As the chief or, rather, the head of the office for exchanges, he

7 had powers over the detained prisoners of war.

8 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to Exhibit 3351. And if you can

9 find the section in that document, that is the section numbered 2.4. Do

10 you have that? In the B/C/S version, sir, there's a page that -- the top

11 of the page starts with heading 2.4. Do you have it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. If you can look at this for a moment, please. Sir,

14 this document appears to be a report of the HVO military police

15 administration for the first six months of 1993, January to June 1993.

16 Can I ask you, if you're looking at 2.4, just directing your attention to

17 couple of -- a couple of the sentences there. The first sentence:

18 "Over 6.000 prisoners of war have been held in prisons in

19 Herceg-Bosna over the past period. Currently there are over 4.000

20 prisoners in prison. Of this number, several hundred are members of the

21 Serbian army, and the overwhelming number are members of the army of BH.

22 "Prisoners are taken out for work in large numbers, this making it

23 possible for them to escape.

24 "There have been a number of such cases but there exists no

25 possibilities for increasing the number of military police."

Page 14728

1 Based on your experience and your involvement at the Heliodrom

2 prison at the time this report was written, is that information consistent

3 with what you knew or understood to be the case at the time?

4 A. I wouldn't have much to say about this except perhaps one thing.

5 There was a large number of people, how large I don't know, but it's

6 probable that somebody qualified, competent, made this report.

7 As for the number of military policemen who worked as guards, it

8 was a very small number, and they never sent us the reinforcements that we

9 had requested. As I said, officers of the SIS and the crime prevention

10 service did their jobs and worked every day with the detainees and

11 prisoners.

12 Q. In the last sentence of that section it says:

13 "Instances" - excuse me - "Instances have been reported of

14 forcible entry into prisons and forcibly conducted investigations on the

15 part of some commanders. Such practices should be definitely forbidden

16 and prevented."

17 A. I can't recall a single such case where I was present during such

18 a forced entry, but if it's written in the report, then probably there

19 were reports to that effect and maybe it did happen, but I didn't know

20 about it.

21 Q. You said a moment ago that there were not sufficient number of

22 military policemen. The reinforcements that we had requested were not

23 provided. Is that an issue that you, Mr. Praljak, raised on a number of

24 occasions, that there were insufficient military policemen at the

25 Heliodrom prison?

Page 14729

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recall a particular --

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. I must have a question of

4 understanding. I don't really understand this: Forcible entry. If it

5 means that people were sent to prison against their will, that is a rather

6 normal practice. What is forcible to be understood as meaning in this

7 context here? I don't know whether the witness or the Prosecution will

8 answer.

9 MR. SCOTT: I will defer in the first instance, of course, Your

10 Honour, to the witness if he can assist us.

11 Q. Do you understand the Judge's question, Mr. Praljak?

12 A. Yes, I did. I can only clarify what's written here. As far as I

13 understand it, forced entry or forcible entry was made by other units, and

14 people were taken out by force to be investigated.

15 Q. And the language, just to pick up and to follow up on Judge

16 Trechsel's question, the language of the report, at least as its

17 translated in English, is the reports of forcible entry into prisons. I

18 don't think bringing people forcibly to the prisons, but forcible entry

19 into the prisons and forcible --

20 A. No. Here in the translation it says that certain commanders

21 forcibly entered and conducted investigations --

22 Q. Let me --

23 A. -- of prisoners of war or other people who were inside.

24 Q. All right. Before we continue on to another aspect related to

25 this, Mr. President, we're move off or forward from some of the evidence

Page 14730

1 that we expect to obtain from this witness concerning the matter of

2 releases and the documentation of that. A larger amount of those

3 materials is part of the various bundles that have been prepared in

4 connection with the witness, this witness. Bundles 1, 2, 5, 6 and 12 are

5 all bundles of collections of documents all related to the release of

6 prisoners during this time, and if time allows at the end of his

7 testimony, we will have -- we'll ask the witness to further confirm these

8 bundles of exhibits, but I'm just informing the Chamber now that that is

9 the way we're prepared to proceed.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Scott. We are

11 dealing with documents 33, 51, and I have to ask certain questions.

12 At 2.4, it is said that there were hundreds of soldiers who were

13 members of the Serb army. It's the first time I see this reference.

14 To the best of your knowledge, when you were deputy warden of the

15 prison, were there Serb soldiers detained and, if so, were they mixed in

16 with the Muslims? Where were those Serb soldiers?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since the report relates to 1993 and

18 the month that is indicated, we did not know among those 6.000 people

19 mentioned here who was of Serb ethnicity, who was a Muslim, or any other

20 ethnicity. Only Mr. Vidovic and his group knew that.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You surprise me. In a -- so far

22 as you explained that the prisoners of war were separated from the

23 soldiers and others.

24 Now, I assume, but this is a hypothesis, that those Serb prisoners

25 were prisoners of war. Were they not? And if they were prisoners of war,

Page 14731

1 how come you weren't kept abreast of that and didn't know about it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How would I know about it from the

3 30th of June when they were brought in if we had no insight into the

4 names, the first or last names of any of the people who were brought in?

5 The number is known, the number before the 30th of June, and then there

6 are reports about how many military detainees there were and others.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. There's no point in

8 going further.

9 Now, my last question -- yes, Mr. Coric.

10 THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

11 be of assistant here. I think that something has been omitted. The

12 Prosecutor should have said that this is an excerpt from a six-month

13 report from the 1st of January, 1993, until the 1st of July, 1993. So

14 these are facts and figures for six months, the first six months of 1993.

15 And in that first stage in 1993, most of the prisoners in the prison were

16 Serb, Serb prisoners, and then the situation changed. I want to help the

17 witness out here for him to be able to give the proper answer as it was.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. That will allow us

19 to have a better understanding of the sentence.

20 And now my last question for this witness just now. In the

21 Naletilic trial that was tried here, and we admitted certain facts, it

22 emerged that Mr. Mladen Naletilic came to the prison in order to assist in

23 the interrogations. Now, to the best of your knowledge, Mladen Naletilic,

24 did he -- was he part of those who entered and who shouldn't have entered

25 the prison?

Page 14732

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mladen Naletilic, nickname Tuta,

2 never came to the prison as himself during working hours while I was there

3 from 8.00 to 4.00, nor did I have any knowledge or neither did I read

4 about that in any of the reports.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll take note of

6 what you said.

7 A question from the Bench.

8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] A short question, Witness. A

9 moment ago you said that Mr. Berislav Pusic was a member of the military

10 police until July when he became head of the exchange office. Now, what

11 do you mean when you say member of the military police? Was he a soldier

12 in a uniform with a rank or not?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While Berislav Pusic was a member of

14 the military police he wore a uniform just like I did. Now, as far as

15 rank is concerned, I don't think there were any ranks. I don't think

16 anybody had ranks at that time.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that he wore the same

18 uniform as you, and what was your uniform like?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a camouflage uniform of the

20 military police just like the other soldiers.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you have a white belt?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I didn't, actually. I had a

23 green belt.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why did you have a green belt?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I found it more suitable and

Page 14733

1 in some -- on some occasions I wore a white belt.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Pusic, what kind of belt

3 did he have?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't say what kind of belt

5 he had. I didn't notice whether he had one, what it was like. It was a

6 long time ago for me to be able to say, but all I can say is that he wore

7 a uniform.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Scott.


10 Q. If I can ask you next, please, to look at Exhibit 3209. And if I

11 can start, sir, by asking if you look at the signature portion of the

12 document, it -- the typing on the document appears that it was prepared

13 for the signature of Mr. Bozic, but can you confirm to us that that is

14 your signature on the document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And can you tell us -- looking at this document, can you just say

17 a bit more to the Judges about this particular incident, shooting

18 incident, at the prison?

19 A. When we came to work in the morning, we found out that during the

20 night there had been some shooting at the windows of the hall and the

21 school where the detainees were located. The deputy commander of the

22 brigade was immediately informed about that; that was Mr. Mile Pusic. And

23 they intervened to stop the shooting. Those were all the words of

24 Mr. Slavko Kozul.

25 Q. This is one of the men that you identified, I believe, yesterday

Page 14734

1 as one of the shift commanders; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, Slavko Kozul.

3 Q. In terms of the document itself, the distribution is to Mr. Bruno

4 Stojic, Mr. Valentin Coric, Mr. Zvonko Vidovic, and Mr. Berislav Pusic.

5 Now, you signed the letter. Do you recall whether you actually also

6 prepared the letter? Maybe you originally prepared it for Mr. Bozic's

7 signature, but in any event, do you know -- did you prepare this letter

8 yourself and then ultimately sign it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And why did you send a copy of this report to Mr. Stojic?

11 A. The importance of the situation which occurred, luckily there

12 weren't any casualties but there could have been. For this to be

13 prevented, I thought that it would come to the representative of Mr. Bruno

14 Stojic; Valentin Coric, the head; as well as Zvonko Vidovic, the head of

15 the crime prevention department; and Mr. Berislav Pusic, from the military

16 police administration. For them to understand the seriousness of the

17 situation and the situation at Heliodrom, because I stress that there are

18 few military policemen, not enough, and that it was not possible to

19 provide security with the number of military men available. And at that

20 time there were 16 of them.

21 Q. Sir, can you tell the Judges, to the best of your knowledge, that

22 is as far as you know, was anyone ever punished, disciplined or held

23 accountable for that shooting incident around the 5th of July, 1993?

24 A. I don't know.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this document testifies

Page 14735

1 to the fact that between 1.00 and 3.00 a.m. on the 5th of July, 1993,

2 unidentified soldiers shot at the windows of the school building. You

3 yourself or Mr. Bozic, independently of the report -- well, you can't say

4 anything about the report. It's done as it should be. But did you --

5 these soldiers must have belonged to a unit, and you must have given their

6 descriptions to their superiors. So did the prison authorities take any

7 steps with respect and contact the responsible military persons in the

8 Heliodrom to try and understand and unravel what had actually happened,

9 because they could have been drunken soldiers, one soldier or more

10 soldiers who were drunk and shot. It could have been an organised

11 incident. So it gives rise to a whole number of questions.

12 Now, at the level of the prison authorities, did you contact the

13 responsible military authorities of the Heliodrom compound to find out

14 exactly what had happened?

15 A. According to the report that was written at that time, it was

16 emphasised that the deputy commander of the 3rd Brigade, Mr. Mile Puzic

17 had been informed as well as the brigade police and the military police

18 that was in town at the mechanical engineering faculty in Mostar, and they

19 indicated -- they reported the incident and asked them to solve it, that

20 is to say, the brigade police and our own police to investigate the

21 incident. However, according to what Mr. Slavko Kozul said, that was not

22 done. So the shooting stopped of its own accord.

23 Everything was sent out by the book as it should have been so that

24 the deputy commander, Mr. Mile Pusic, with his brigade police force,

25 should find the perpetrators and punish them. Whether he actually did

Page 14736

1 find them and punish them, I don't know.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Scott, if I'm asking a question

3 which you would have asked.

4 You complain here that you have not enough police force to guard

5 the camp. Were there any consequences? Was the police force reinforced?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the report you say there were

9 16 policemen to provide security. Now, these 16 in realtime or 16 in

10 total? Or in a word, this number 16, is it the number of the total number

11 of the policemen or is it a number which changed?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time we had 16 military

13 policemen, and in the report, I said that we needed -- that we would need

14 another 16 military policemen in order to be able to provide security for

15 the prison.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm referring to this figure of

17 17. Now, I assume that among the 16 there are some who -- who are off at

18 night, asleep at night. Others might be off on furlough. Others might be

19 sick. So there are not 16 of them at all times.

20 Now, during the night, in order to guard all these prisoners, how

21 many military policemen were there on duty? Through the night, for

22 example, awake, alert, in order to ensure proper security for at least

23 three buildings, the school, the sports hall, and the other building, the

24 prison.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to this report, the

Page 14737

1 security for these four buildings, there were only 16 military policemen.

2 That's what I'm reading here. Now, I can't say whether it was 16, 17, or

3 18, actually, because it was a long time ago.

4 MR. SCOTT: If I might --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're looking at the report,

6 but I would like to tap into our memory. You say there were 16 to guard

7 four buildings. Does that mean four per building or does it mean that

8 there were a total of 16 to provide security for the whole penitentiary

9 compound? That's what I want to know. Were there 16 at night or 16 in

10 total for everything?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were 16 policemen employed.

12 MR. SCOTT: If I might assist, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that there were shifts at the prison

14 and sometimes you said there were 12-hour visits and sometimes there were

15 8-hour shifts. Now, to follow up on the President's question, when you

16 say there were military policemen, are you saying that these 16 military

17 policemen would then be spread out over the various shifts? So some would

18 be on the nightshift, some would be on the dayshift, what have you? How

19 many of these 16 policemen were actually guarding the facility at any one

20 time?

21 A. There were a small number. I know that they couldn't cover it

22 all, so that in the building because the -- in the school building,

23 because the school building and the sports hall were together, there were

24 two men working, sometimes three, in one shift. Two or three on duty in

25 one shift.

Page 14738


2 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: -- go on. At that moment, between 1.00 and 3.00

4 in the night, some policemen were out on duty; correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It seems, furthermore, that they did absolutely

7 nothing, that they did not react in any way to this shooting. Is that

8 correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the report here, all I

10 can see is that they reported the incident to the brigade police which was

11 put up at Heliodrom and the military police at the mechanical engineering

12 factory, which means that they could not have stood up to this because an

13 even bigger conflict would have flared up. That's my opinion.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Anyway, you say that the shooting stopped without

15 police intervention. That means that the guards did not intervene. Isn't

16 that so?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what can be deduced from the

18 report.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Is this the way that the service of guards was

20 conceived at Heliodrom, that they should not intervene when anyone shot

21 at -- at prison premises? Was that their order? Did they have that order

22 not to react in such a case?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the order is concerned

24 itself, the work of the military policemen was to protect, to provide

25 protection for the prisoners and not to allow forcible entry or forced

Page 14739

1 entry, and not to allow disturbances of any kind, war prisoners to be

2 disturbed.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That's what one assumes. Now it appears that

4 this duty was not fulfilled. Was any disciplinary action taken against

5 those who were on guard at that time and did not react during two hours?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, unless the warden

7 might have done something.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.


11 Q. Sir, moving on then to -- from this incident to another topic.

12 Can you tell the Judges generally, please, whether the prisoners who were

13 detained and brought in during this June, July 1993 time period, were they

14 then taken out at various times from the Heliodrom to perform -- well, on

15 various labour details?

16 A. Can you explain what you mean about -- of these -- what do you

17 mean by details, duties?

18 Q. Forgive me.

19 A. What duties and details?

20 Q. Were prisoners taken from the Heliodrom, outside of the Heliodrom

21 to perform labour?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when do you recall first learning that in the course of being

24 taken out to perform labour prisoners were being killed, wounded, injured,

25 or disappearing in some way?

Page 14740

1 A. As far as wounding was concerned and injury and what happened,

2 where they were taken, in the places where they were taken to do labour, I

3 didn't know about that, nor did I see a single wounded or killed person.

4 Q. Well, let me ask you, please, to go to P 03171.

5 A. Can you repeat the number, please?

6 Q. Yes, 3171. And, sir, this appears to be a report dated the 4th of

7 July, 1993, so quite early in this period. Again, although there is the

8 typed named Stanko Bozic, is it in fact your signature on this report?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, how the information came to you

11 for the purpose of preparing this report that two prisoners, Mr. Ramic and

12 Mr. Cilic, had been wounded while being taken out on a labour assignment?

13 A. When they were taken, pursuant to the order, the prisoners of war,

14 they were -- when they were being taken out, they were all registered,

15 their names and surnames, made a list of by the shift commander who let

16 them go. And the person who took them off signed for them. And after

17 labour was completed, and that was usually after 4.00 p.m. when we'd

18 already gone home, those prisoners of war would come back from having

19 performed the labour.

20 Q. But how did you find out or how would you find out on any given

21 occasion, in particular, this occasion, how did you find out that two of

22 the prisoners had been wounded?

23 A. In the morning Mr. Ante Smiljanic brought in a report to Mr. Bozic

24 about all the things that happened during the night or, rather, everything

25 that happened from 4.00 p.m. until the next morning. Then Mr. Smiljanic

Page 14741

1 would inform Mr. Stanko Bozic, and then the secretary, Snjezana

2 Cvitanovic, would compile the report like this one, this report, which I,

3 on that morning, as you can see, signed for Mr. Bozic.

4 Q. Is it correct, sir, that most of the prisoners who were taken out

5 for labour, they would be returned to the facility after 4.00?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In the first letter of the report that you signed it says: "On 3

8 July 1992, pursuant to written request number 01-41/93 by the 7th

9 Battalion of the 3rd Brigade, detainees were provided for work with the

10 approval of Mr. Berislav Pusic."

11 Now, can you explain to the Judges, please, what role Mr. Pusic

12 played in the approval of sending prisoner for forced labour?

13 A. Mr. Berislav, as a worker of the military police, could allow

14 labour and allow people to go out to perform labour, and probably at that

15 time, it was Mr. Berislav Pusic who had to be asked, because otherwise he

16 wouldn't have -- his name wouldn't have been mentioned in this report had

17 that not been necessary.

18 Q. Why did you send your report to Mr. Coric?

19 A. It was constant practice wherein we, the prison, had to report

20 everything to the chief of the military police, the chief of the crime

21 prevention service, Mr. Zvonko Vidovic, and Mr. Berislav Pusic, as the

22 officer in charge of control of the military police administration.

23 Q. Could you explain to the Judges, you touched on this a moment ago,

24 but could you explain to the Judges your understanding of the procedure,

25 if you will, from start to finish, in terms of an HVO unit requesting

Page 14742

1 prisoners to be taken out of the Heliodrom for labour? How would such a

2 request be made? How would it be processed to the point of the prisoners

3 then actually leaving the facility to go out and work?

4 A. There were various periods as far as the release of prisoners for

5 labour was concerned. We, as the military prison, were not entitled to

6 let anyone go out to do labour without an order. At the beginning,

7 brigade commanders or battalion commanders could take them out. Military

8 police could take prisoners out all the time because we were under the

9 military police. But later, specific people were appointed who could

10 issue approvals for the prisoners to go out to do labour. One of them was

11 the commander of the town defence or, rather, the commander of the AT

12 unit, light infantry unit, Mr. Miro [as interpreted] Jelic. So that the

13 greatest number of exits for labour was approved by him.

14 Q. All right. I'll stop you for a moment please just to correct the

15 transcript. On line 19, sir, it's been recorded -- the name you've given

16 has been recorded as Miro, M-i-r-o, Jelic. Is that correct or could you

17 spell it?

18 A. Mijo, M-i-j-o.

19 Q. And you've indicated that Mr. Jelic was a commander of a, what was

20 called here in the record, of a light infantry unit. And can you tell the

21 Judges, was that a military unit organisation of the military police?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Could I ask you please to turn in your bundle to Exhibit 2638. If

24 you have that, sir, can you tell us, is this the type of document or order

25 that you and people at the Heliodrom prison became familiar with as an

Page 14743

1 order concerning the use of prisoners from the Heliodrom for labour? In

2 this particular instance, dated, in fact, the 5th of June, 1993.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when we look at the name on the bottom of this document in

5 terms of who -- or for whose signature it was prepared, is this the Mijo

6 Jelic that you were testifying about just a moment ago?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Looking at the first part of that under the

9 words "Order" -- under the word "Order," it says, "As of the 5th of June,

10 1993, the unit --" It says "1st light attack BVP is allowed to take five

11 male prisoners from the SVIZ Heliodrom Mostar. Mr. Meho Gosto is

12 personally responsible for taking over the prisoners for their security

13 and welfare while they would be carrying out the public works. The

14 prisoners are to be treated in accordance with the international

15 humanitarian law and Geneva Conventions."

16 Now, going back to the question I asked you a moment ago, how

17 would the 1st light attack BVP on the 5th of June, 1993, if you know, how

18 would that unit communicate, "Please send us five prisoners to work for us

19 today"? How would that work?

20 A. A driver from this light assault brigade or the person who was

21 supposed to bring the prisoners out would bring this order, enter the

22 prison, and go to see the shift commander. And this person would show the

23 list to the shift commander, who would then select five persons. And when

24 the person bringing out the prisoners of war would sign the paper, the

25 number of their military badge would be taken down. If it was a military

Page 14744

1 policeman, then -- or a number of his ID, military ID if it was a soldier,

2 and then that person would take the people out.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if I can just pause here to inform the

4 Chamber and, again, if we have time at the end of Mr. Praljak's testimony,

5 we may come back to this, but in the bundle of materials, the binders and

6 bundles of materials that have been provided to the Chamber, bundle number

7 3 is a set of a large number of orders for the use of detainees for

8 labour. I don't know how many exhibits are in that bundle exactly

9 offhand, although it goes on for -- the list itself goes on for --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question.

11 Have you finished, Mr. Scott?

12 MR. SCOTT: No. If I could just finish assisting the Chamber, I

13 hope. That's bundle 3. Bundle 4 is a set of documents, requests for

14 prisoners for labour primarily signed by a person named Puljic. Bundle

15 number 7 is a set of documents listed in a 33-page index of approvals to

16 take detainees for labour. Bundle 8 is a set of materials listed in 17

17 pages of reports concerning detainees who had been beaten, wounded, or

18 killed who are performing forced labour. Exhibit bundle number 10 is a

19 two-page list of various logbooks related to the taking of prisoners for

20 forced labour. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have looked at this

22 document, just as those in the bundles 3, 4, and others. I note that

23 there is a great number of orders saying at the end that the prisoners

24 would be treated in keeping with the international humanitarian law,

25 Geneva Conventions, et cetera.

Page 14745

1 Now, in your mind, what did this phrase mean? What was it that

2 prisoners were able or could do outside, and what couldn't they do in

3 keeping with international treaties? Could you share with us your views

4 on that issue?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This very phrase "treat them in

6 keeping with international humanitarian law and the Geneva Conventions"

7 expresses a certain attitude toward the prisoner of war, meaning that he

8 should not be mistreated, insulted, beaten, and most importantly, that he

9 should not be taken to places where his life would be in danger. In other

10 words, he should be removed from the front line.

11 As we see in every order that has been to given us, the labour is

12 strictly specified: Cleaning streets, cleaning parks, cleaning premises.

13 And that in itself specifies that these people would not be at risk. That

14 is my personal opinion.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have given us your

16 explanation. Now, following from that, when you make a report saying that

17 two detainees were injured, did you ask yourself -- as they were wounded

18 by BH fire, doesn't that mean that they were at risk after all? When you

19 analyse the situation, a situation where two detainees were wounded by BH

20 fire, at the same time as telling us in line 13 that prisoners should not

21 be exposed to risk, how does that tally?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This order doesn't say that I am in

23 a position to see them when they are taken out. The shift commander gets

24 an order that neither I nor Stanko Bozic have access to. The shift

25 commander is the only one who sees the order and who approves that labour.

Page 14746

1 In the morning when a report is made for the previous day to

2 Mr. Stanko Bozic, it is only then that we find out somebody was injured or

3 wounded. I can say with full responsibility that all those things that

4 happened, and we can see all that in the reports, were the responsibility

5 of Mr. Stanko Bozic. He took care of that, together with two doctors from

6 the infirmary who have generally extended assistance in such cases, and

7 Mr. Stanko Bozic did his utmost. That's my opinion.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you have on the screen

9 this text, we see in the B/C/S version that the order was written on a

10 form where you only have to fill in the names and the dates, which means

11 that it was a current practice to require prisoners for labour.

12 To the best of your knowledge, how many prisoners went out each

13 day to work in different areas, in different locations?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you, but many of

15 them went out. I couldn't give you the exact number. You can see that in

16 the reports and in the records. There is a record of how many people went

17 out to work each day. I wouldn't like to speculate on the number.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Scott. If I may just continue in

20 this direction.

21 Mr. Praljak, was there any system to control whether the prisoners

22 were actually employed for these innocent tasks that were indicated in the

23 requests and whether they were really treated in accordance with

24 international humanitarian law and the Geneva Conventions and, if so, how

25 was this control operated?

Page 14747

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the prison is concerned,

2 the prison was not able to know where prisoners were going. They were

3 taken from Heliodrom to various locations, but we didn't know where.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, this is quite a surprising answer.

5 The prisoners were in your hands, under your administration, and in your

6 responsibility. I would suppose that a minimum would be that there is a

7 regular control by talking to these prisoners and asking them where they

8 were, what they had been asked to do, particularly when they had been

9 wounded. Are you telling me that nothing of this kind was done?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a moment ago that Mr. Bozic

11 talked to prisoners. If any of those prisoners were wounded, I never had

12 occasion to speak to them. Mr. Bozic did that and wrote the reports.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm not -- I'm not claiming that you personally

14 are responsible. When I say you or the prison, I mean the prison

15 management there.

16 Are you aware -- can you tell us that Mr. Bozic actually

17 investigated and found out how the prisoners were used?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know that. I wouldn't

19 know about Bozic, and I can't speak in his name.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I don't ask you to speak in his name, but did you

21 not talk about these matters? Was it something without any interest to

22 you that prisoners under your responsibility came not back at all or came

23 back and were wounded?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All that I knew I reported to

25 Mr. Bozic; I shared with him. But as for things I didn't know, I didn't

Page 14748

1 hear much from other people because I didn't speak to prisoners about such

2 things.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott. Please

4 continue.

5 MR. SCOTT: If I could have the usher's assistance, please. In

6 the --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


9 Q. In the various bundles that have been prepared, some of them I

10 just referred to -- or all of them I just referred to, there is Exhibit

11 2921, and in the interest of time, I'll just ask if the usher can put that

12 on the ELMO, please, and the -- well, first, if you could give it to the

13 witness. Actually, I think he has it. No, he wouldn't have it in that

14 bundle. I'm sorry, usher. No. If you could give the witness the B/C/S

15 version and put the English version on the ELMO, please. I'm sorry.

16 2921.

17 Now, sir, this is a request to Mr. Bozic, as I understand it,

18 dated the 24th of June, 1993, to take 20 detainees to perform engineer

19 works on the Croatian Defence Council or HVO positions in Ricinoj street.

20 Do you see that?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. And what is your understanding when it talks about engineering

23 works? What does that mean to you? Or to engineer works. What kind of

24 works?

25 A. Engineering works. Probably digging. What kind of digging, I

Page 14749

1 don't know. Engineering, machines.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. President, the

4 accused can see only English on the screens.

5 MR. SCOTT: If you look on the --

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There it is. We can see it all

7 now, Mr. Ibrisimovic. I'm sorry.


9 Q. Sir, can you tell us, is it correct that Ricinoj street was

10 located on the confrontation line in Mostar?

11 A. Ricinoj street was the place where the prison building was, where

12 I worked.

13 Q. And where was that location in relation to the confrontation line?

14 A. In the town of Mostar itself.

15 Q. And where was that in location to the confrontation line between

16 the -- excuse me, sir. Let me finish my question to you. In relation to

17 the confrontation line between the Muslims and the Croats as of this time

18 period in June 1993?

19 A. Ricinoj Street is the separation line in the conflict.

20 MR. SCOTT: And if I can just have the usher's assistance. Just

21 one other document on this example, please. Exhibit 3194. And again with

22 the English on the ELMO, please.

23 Q. Sir, is it correct this is a request dated the 5th of July, 1993,

24 for five prisoners to be taken to "build bunkers between the new bank and

25 the grammar school"?

Page 14750

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you have any other information you can give us on the use

3 of the word "bunkers" other than what we might think of as common usage?

4 A. Well, bunker means a shelter, shelter from enemy shells and

5 shooting.

6 Q. Could I direct your attention, please, to the lower part of the

7 document, and can you tell us, does that indicate again some approval by

8 Mr. Pusic? And whose handwriting is that?

9 A. This is my handwriting. This was approved by Berko Pusic and

10 taken over by Miro Bevanda against his signature.

11 Q. And, sir, how do you recall putting this handwritten information

12 on the document? How did you receive the information that Mr. Pusic had

13 approved the taking of these prisoners to build bunkers?

14 A. This request, we see "Subject: Request ..." was something that I

15 called Berko Pusic about. I with read to him the request, and he would

16 approve this part where it says what is requested, and then Mr. Miro

17 Bevanda would take it over.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The request that we see, I see

19 it's addressed to the military prison of Heliodrom, and you are asked to

20 give a group of five prisoners, but those could also be military

21 prisoners, detainees of the HVO who were serving a sentence. To the best

22 of your knowledge, when you received such requests, did it ever happen

23 that either you or somebody else provided the HVO with their own members

24 who were serving a sentence in your prison?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The request itself did not specify

Page 14751

1 which prisoners we wanted, and I can't remember whether it was our own

2 men, Croats, who went out or Muslims. All I know is that the request had

3 to be approved by the military police administration, that is Berko Pusic,

4 and he approved it.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But if those were Croats, how

6 would that concern Mr. Berislav Pusic?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understand your question

8 correctly, it is not exactly that it was of concern, but it's that the

9 prison was not able to let these people go out without the approval of the

10 military police administration, in other words, Mr. Berko Pusic, and he

11 was the one we called most often whenever we needed something.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, you have some time ago said that

13 there was a certain separation of categories of prisoners; is that

14 correct?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the date that we see here,

16 the 5th of July, I think you didn't understand me quite, Your Honour.

17 People were separated into categories only in September, in the end of

18 September, and there was one category only that was separated earlier,

19 military detainees as opposed to prisoners of war.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Would you then say that there were in the same

21 premises Croat and Muslim prisoners held together undistinct?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in the same building, the

23 building of the prison, but they were physically separated so that they

24 could not be in contact, these two groups.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So you should be able to tell and you must have

Page 14752

1 noticed whether the orders to take out prisoners were handed to the

2 department chief of the Croat section or a Muslim section.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat that

4 question and make it more simple?

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. You have told us that the order to

6 take out prisoners or to hand out prisoners were brought by a driver and

7 were then handed to a shift commander; correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me. When the

9 order to release the prisoners of war came, the commander of the shift,

10 shift commander, would select the people being asked for. He makes a list

11 of their names into a book. He writes their names and surnames into the

12 book saying which prisoners of war were leaving, and then at the end of

13 that list, he signs his name. And the person who comes to collect the

14 people signs.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I did understand it that way, Mr. Praljak. I did

16 understand that all right. My question is: Was the same shift commander

17 in charge of Croat and of non-Croat prisoners?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. The shift commander was

19 superior to everyone.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And have you ever witnessed -- can you tell us

21 that a shift commander ever selected a Croat prisoner to go out to do

22 work?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a witness to have seen that.

24 However, I know that it was mostly the units within the Heliodrom compound

25 who for the tasks they performed or labour would also take out Croatian

Page 14753

1 detainees.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: How do you know this?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the words. And I saw people

4 taken out and working in the compound, in the barracks, the building next

5 to us, the Bojna Busic regiment, and then they would pass right underneath

6 my window where my office was and go into the next-door building.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Was that the kind of assignment we have been

8 talking about now where Mr. Pusic would give an agreement?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That permission wasn't issued by

10 Mr. Pusic. It was issued by the commander of the brigade at the time, and

11 that was Mr. Bozo Pavlovic.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry for interrupting

13 you, Mr. Scott.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, it's time for the

15 break. We're going to take a 20-minute break, and the registrar tells me

16 that you have used almost three hours and 20 minutes.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.


21 Q. Mr. Praljak, before we move forward, if we can still have -- if we

22 can still have 2921 in front of you and the English version on the ELMO.

23 Looking at the original language version, again below the

24 signature line for Mr. Puljic there is some handwritten information. Can

25 you tell us if you recognise the handwriting on the -- on that portion of

Page 14754

1 the document?

2 A. I don't know whose handwriting it is, but it was written pursuant

3 to a telephone conversation with Berko Pusic and Goran Vidovic. Twenty

4 detainees to be given out, and they were taken over by Mr. Dragan Kozul

5 with his signature.

6 Q. If you can recall and assist us. Would the communication take

7 place with Mr. Pusic to approve it? Is that something that the local

8 commander did or something that someone at the Heliodrom did? Can you

9 assist us further on that.

10 A. I can explain what's in front of me, that subject.

11 Q. All right. I think -- go ahead, please.

12 A. It was sent to Mr. Bozic personally, and the request came from --

13 or, rather, it came to the prison. The shift commander took in this

14 request and then called Mr. Berko Pusic on the phone, and he talked to

15 him -- or, rather, as it says here, Vidovic talked to him. Goran Vidovic

16 talked to him.

17 So on the basis of the conversation with Berko Pusic, these

18 prisoners of war were given over to this unit.

19 Q. And I take it from what you told us yesterday, the only -- excuse

20 me. Sorry.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Now,

23 I'm not clear in the transcript. Did the witness talk to Mr. Pusic or is

24 he -- I understood it that the witness didn't speak to Mr. Pusic about

25 this subject, but I'm not quite clear.

Page 14755

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott. Would you clear

2 that up? I had the impression that it was the head -- or, rather, the

3 shift commander that telephoned Pusic.

4 MR. SCOTT: That's correct, Your Honour. I never suggested

5 otherwise. I asked if the witness could explain to us the process by

6 which this was done on a daily -- virtually a daily basis. Let me follow

7 up with this question which may assist -- yes.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. I do not see this so clearly and I

9 agree with Mr. Ibrisimovic that it is unclear because it says telephone

10 call by Berko Pusic to Goran Vidovic. So at this point we have an

11 initiative that comes from the accused, Pusic, and then it goes to

12 Vidovic, and from Vidovic probably it goes to prison. Now, the shift

13 commander, we do not know what he did. Did he call Pusic, or did he call

14 Vidovic? Who in turn called Pusic?

15 Do you have any idea, Witness, of how this went?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On duty at the time was Mr. Goran

17 Vidovic, who talked to Mr. Berko Pusic, and with his own hand, probably

18 when he was on duty, wrote what it says here.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: So Goran Vidovic was a shift commander?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether he was a shift commander or

21 whether he worked in the shift or on the shift, I can't say for sure, but

22 he was doing shift duty at the time.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


25 Q. And following up on yesterday, sir, can you confirm to us that the

Page 14756

1 only telephone that would -- at the prison that would be available for

2 these communications was the telephone belonging to the secretary in the

3 administration building where you and Mr. Bozic were located?

4 A. At that time, the prison building, because it was working 24

5 hours, round the clock, had communication with the outside exit through

6 the switchboard of the 3rd Brigade of the Heliodrom.

7 MR. SCOTT: All right. Could I ask you, please -- for the Witness

8 to next be shown, please, Exhibit P 05457. And this is a separate bundle,

9 Your Honour, because it's a large document. It is called on the binder --

10 it is binder number 15 in the overall set, and then further, bundle 13,

11 part 3. And it's all one exhibit, the English translation and original of

12 one exhibit, which is -- Exhibit number is P 05457.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Witness, before

14 you look at this next document, I was thinking about what you just said

15 regarding that telephone conversation. When I was young, I worked on a

16 switchboard, military switchboard, so I know how these things work.

17 Now, I seem to have the impression that you were saying that from

18 this office one would have to go through the switchboard of the 3rd

19 Brigade in order to get an outside connection. Does that mean that the

20 telephone did not have direct access outside, that you would have to go

21 through the switchboard of the 3rd Brigade?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, let's imagine that

24 somebody was calling you from outside and wanted to speak to you. They

25 would have to go through the switchboard of the 3rd Brigade, and then they

Page 14757

1 would put the call through to you; is that right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We had a direct line in the

3 administration, a separate number that didn't have to go through the

4 brigade switchboard. There was a direct line to the secretary in her

5 office.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And why was it that

7 when Mr. Pusic was calling, or the other way round, you had to go through

8 the switchboard? Why couldn't you do this through the direct connection

9 line?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was used -- this line was used

11 by myself, Bozic, and the secretary, this direct line, whereas during the

12 night, we used the brigade switchboard because we weren't working at the

13 time. So the prison building was connected with that switchboard.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's very precise,

15 and it's provided me with the information I needed.

16 Mr. Scott.


18 Q. If you could look now, if you have in front of you, please, if you

19 can go to the original language version of the document which should

20 probably be about halfway through the binder that you have in front of

21 you.

22 And if the Judges have the binder, for this initial purpose, you

23 may also wish to look momentarily at least at the B/C/S version.

24 Do you have that, sir? When you look at that binder, first of

25 all, can you tell us what this document is, this rather lengthy document

Page 14758

1 we're looking at? And if you actually go back from the first -- not the

2 first text pages but the actual something that looks like the outside

3 cover, which I'm told is at page 5 -- in e-court, page 5 of B/C/S and page

4 3 in English.

5 On the very front -- very, very first page of the document I see

6 something which appears to have the writing Zatvor on it. Do you see

7 that?

8 A. Yes. The prison building.

9 Q. And there also appears to be under that, and it's not terribly

10 legible, but one can make out what appears to be a range of dates which

11 might be the dates that this particular journal or ledger covers; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Now, let me go back to my original question. Can you

15 tell the Judges what this document is?

16 A. This document is a book, a ledger, which was kept by the

17 commanders, the shift commanders, a logbook, when orders came in for

18 taking out prisoners for labour. When that came about, they would write

19 the name and surname of each and every person who was to leave the

20 premises to perform labour.

21 Q. If I can then ask you -- at some points, Mr. Praljak, I may push

22 you on a bit further because our time becomes limited. If you turn to the

23 third or fourth page of the original language document, I believe it would

24 be -- by counting the first pages, it would be the fifth page, you come to

25 a page that has the word, and excuse me if I don't pronounce it correctly,

Page 14759

1 but "Naputak" on the front, on the top of it. Do you have that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And first of all, is that your signature on the bottom right

4 corner?

5 A. Yes, it is my signature. It's not my handwriting in the set of

6 instructions above but it is my signature.

7 Q. All right. Now, with that in mind, then, can you tell us then

8 what is written above that over your signature? What is this material or

9 this language about?

10 Now we can go -- for those working in English, we can go back to

11 the translation. Of course you can see the text.

12 A. This is a set of instructions which quite -- was visibly put up so

13 that every military policeman and shift commander could see it and could

14 abide by the instructions set out when they handed over prisoners for

15 labour. It sets out very precisely, point by point, what the instructions

16 are and how the process should be conducted. At the end, it says that the

17 shift commander is responsible for keeping due records and the way in

18 which the logbook was to be handed over from one shift to another. That

19 had to be done in the presence of the shift commander.

20 Q. Now, if we can move forward to the first set of actual entries in

21 the journal and, again in the translation, I think the first one -- the

22 first date of this particular journal is the 21st of August, 1993.

23 Could I ask you, please, looking down to a place where it says

24 "7th Battalion." Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14760

1 Q. Can you just take us through this entry and tell us what this --

2 the information that's indicated here? For instance, under 7th Battalion

3 it says "At 0600 hours." So what is the reference to 0600? What does

4 that indicate to you as a record of the prison?

5 A. The people listed below went out early in the morning, at 6.00

6 a.m., pursuant to the order.

7 Q. And you can tell by looking at this that there were 20 individuals

8 who went out?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell the name of the person who actually received, took

11 custody, if you will, of these people when they were taken out of the

12 Heliodrom?

13 A. After these 20 people, it says that Miro Lovric took them out.

14 Since he didn't have a military ID card, his personal ID number was

15 recorded along with his signature, and underneath the signature it says

16 that they returned from having performed labour at 2040 hours.

17 Q. And just to pick up on various --

18 A. 2045 hours.

19 Q. Excuse me. Just to pick up on various questions that have been

20 asked in the course of the last two days about time. Is it fair to say,

21 then, this would be an example of prisoners who left at 6.00 in the

22 morning before you and Mr. Bozic and the administrative building were

23 operating, and they were brought back at 8.45 in the evening after --

24 again, after you and Mr. Bozic would have left the premises? Is that

25 correct?

Page 14761

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Now, everyone can see that this goes on for some

3 number of pages, and we're not going to -- unless the Chamber has

4 additional questions, we're not going to go through, of course, the many

5 entries because of the time.

6 Sir, is it correct that this particular journal is for -- when it

7 says Zatvor on the front, this is the journal or logbook for the prison

8 building itself? Is that correct?

9 A. Well, that was the book that they kept and made entries in.

10 Q. Well, can I ask you, please, to next be shown a similar bundle

11 exhibit which is 4360 -- P 04367?

12 MR. SCOTT: Which, Your Honours, and for the courtroom, is in

13 binder 14 of the total set of binders, and also marked for further as

14 bundle 13, part 2.

15 Q. And if you can turn quickly, sir, to again the -- approximately

16 the middle of that stack of material until you find the original language

17 version, and the very front page, the exterior front page, if you will.

18 Does that say on the front of it "Skola" and "Hale"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if I might be allowed in the interests of time, is this

21 essentially an identical journal, in fact, including the same page of

22 instructions signed by you, but this was the journal that was maintained

23 for those prisoners who were taken out of either the school or the sports

24 hall?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14762

1 Q. And the format of the entries would be the same as those that we

2 were just looking at; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And just before we leave this, then, to follow up on earlier

5 questions from the Chamber and in particular Judge Trechsel, is it correct

6 again to recall that in the school and in the sports hall only prisoners

7 of war were kept? Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And could I next ask you, please, to look at -- in the --

10 returning to the principal working bundle of exhibits, Exhibit 4871.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, may I -- may I remain with this

12 document for another question?

13 MR. SCOTT: Of course.


15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, please.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Witness, if you look at the page numbers up to

17 the right, and if you look at page 01535046, which is an example. There

18 are move. You have a number of names with a circle around them. Can you

19 explain what this circle means?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't answer that. I don't

21 know.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm astonished, Mr. Praljak. You gave out

23 directions as to how this logbook was to be kept. Now, there is a sign

24 which is really clearly visible, and you say you do not know what it

25 means?

Page 14763

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of this -- it's just now

2 that I've read it. It says that Mate Kozul, and the number of the badge

3 that he returned, that 10 detainees remained out doing labour who were

4 circled, which means that these 10 individuals with the circles round

5 their names were not returned, and that was in the morning. The shift

6 commander, in his report, is reporting to Stanko Bozic, and on the basis

7 of this, the report was compiled about these people who were not returned.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Where would that report be, Mr. Praljak? In --

9 somewhere else. The report has no traces in this document; is that

10 correct?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but the person who

12 writes this says they remain outside when they were taken to perform

13 labour. Ten individuals, that 10 individuals were not returned and that

14 Mr. Bozic knew about this, and most probably he wrote a letter about what

15 happened to those people.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak. Mr. Praljak, did you or did anybody

17 else regularly check on this logbook, control whether it was correct and

18 what the entries were?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had to be correct, because for

20 taking over the people and the exactness of the information here, you have

21 the signature of the person who took the people out and therefore who was

22 responsible for those people.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: This was not my question, Mr. Praljak. I asked

24 you whether you or someone else regularly looked up this logbook and

25 checked what was happening, what the entries were.

Page 14764

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to the reports that were written,

2 Mr. Bozic would receive a report from Ante Smiljanic every morning which

3 ought to be correct, should have been correct. And then Mr. Bozic knew

4 about its correctness, because in -- if the people were not there, then

5 the people that Mr. Bozic had a list of who had not returned would ask

6 that all these people be returned. He would do this through the SIS

7 employees. That is to say, that certain people who had not been returned

8 be returned, because then he didn't know where they were.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have still not answered my question, Mr.

10 Praljak. It is a very simple question. Did you or to your knowledge

11 someone else regularly look at this logbook and check what the entries

12 were, or were they left with the shift commanders and the management of

13 the prison just didn't bother?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The shift commander was responsible

15 to the warden for security. Now, Ante Smiljanic who had an insight --

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak. Mr. Praljak.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I am asking you whether you or, to your

20 knowledge, someone else regularly controlled this logbook. The answer is

21 yes or no.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. Who did? Did you?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In most cases it was Mr. Ante

25 Smiljanic, Stanko Bozic, and from time to time I did.

Page 14765

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a point of clarification, Your Honours, based

3 on the questions that you've just asked, Judge Trechsel. The instructions

4 were signed by the gentleman as the warden, the instructions that you were

5 referring to, and it would seem to me that based on that, this gentleman

6 was acting as the warden at least with respect to the instructions, and

7 therefore the shift commanders would have been directly his subordinates.

8 Might -- in line of your questioning, might you wish to inquire of that,

9 because it might be important later on.

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you for the suggestion.

11 You have heard, Mr. Praljak, what Mr. Karnavas, counsel for

12 Mr. Prlic, has just said. You signed the instructions as warden. Were

13 the shift commanders responsible to you or to Mr. Bozic or to both?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, throughout 1993, I

15 signed in different ways. I signed this at a moment in time when

16 Mr. Cvitkovic from the military police administration department, Franjo

17 Cvitkovic was his name, told me that greater security, tighter security

18 should be implemented. On that same day he told me that I should compile

19 this form, and when this tighter security was implemented -- I think it

20 was in place for a short time, because I was issued a subsequent order

21 from Mr. Bruno Stojic as the fifth member for introducing more law and

22 order into the prison. So during that short space of time, Ante Smiljanic

23 once again, in the post that he was, and he remained security commander,

24 and Stanko Bozic was never replaced as the warden and commander of the

25 prison.

Page 14766

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. I wonder whether this is entirely

2 clear, but I would leave it for cross-examination, because I do not want

3 to abuse too much of Mr. Scott's kind patience. Please.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. In -- in partial response to

5 your question, Judge Trechsel, and to the Chamber in general, again, I

6 would just highlight for the purposes of the record and to advise the

7 Chamber, there is also a set of materials called bundle number 8 which

8 have a separate table. All the bundles have a separate schedule or table

9 in front. Bundle number 8 lists 120 separate exhibits which are all

10 reports about detainees being beaten, wounded, or killed. And there's 120

11 exhibits starting with the first Exhibit number being 03171 and

12 continuing on to Exhibit 8147. And in those 120 separate exhibits, all of

13 those contain information about prisoners taken for forced labour who were

14 either beaten, wounded, or killed.

15 And as one example of that, if I can ask again for the assistance

16 of the usher. If you can put the English version on the ELMO and show the

17 witness the -- and this is Exhibit P 03435, which again is part of bundle

18 8.

19 Q. And first of all, sir, if we can look -- if you look at the

20 original language version once again. Even though it has the typed name

21 of Mr. Bozic, is that your signature?

22 A. It's the signature of Mr. Bozic.

23 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. I'm sorry. I don't have it

24 immediately in front of me, and I can't see the B/C/S version at the

25 moment. My apology.

Page 14767

1 Is this a form that you are familiar with again, that you can tell

2 the Chamber that this is the type of report that you saw being prepared

3 around this time, this one being specifically for an event on the 10th of

4 July, 1993?

5 A. Yes. This kind of report. I think Bozic did the contact --

6 contacts and wrote 99 per cent of these reports.

7 Q. This again is a record of in general -- more generally of a -- the

8 taking of 30 detainees based on an order signed by Mijo Jelic, handed over

9 for work with the permission of military police control officer Berislav

10 Pusic, given over to a military policeman by the name of Baresic, badge

11 number 3233, and one of the detainees was wounded in the leg by the BH

12 army and taken to the hospital for treatment. Do you see that?

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Scott.

14 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm lost. I don't know what documents you're

16 using. We have two bundle 8. We have part of it in binder 7, and then we

17 have part in binder 8, I think.

18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. If you'll allow me to -- I'm

19 advised that it's in binder 7. It was in the complete set. It might not

20 be the subset that was provided to each Judge. I think it's -- it's

21 Exhibit P --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ibrisimovic.

23 MR. SCOTT: Could I just before that -- could I assist. It is

24 Exhibit P 03435, the English version of which is on the ELMO now, because

25 I understood that finding the binders might be a problem is the reason I

Page 14768

1 put it on the ELMO.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I've got it. Thank you very much.

3 MR. SCOTT: Sorry. And the witness has the B/C/S version in front

4 of him. And I believe it's also in e-court at the moment as far as I can

5 see it. No? I can't tell. Is it on e-court as well?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ibrisimovic.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

8 question goes in this direction precisely. Mr. Scott is questioning now

9 on the form of the document. I think it would have been more logical to

10 ask the witness if he knows about the event itself.

11 MR. SCOTT: I'll continue on.

12 Q. Sir -- unless I've misread the document, I think I've accurately

13 read it. Can I just ask you, sir, again why this kind of report then --

14 is it true that this standard type of report then would also be

15 communicated on to Mr. Coric, Mr. Pusic, and Mr. Vidovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I take it -- is it correct, sir, that when we went through the

18 bundle of 120 separate exhibits, they would all basically look pretty much

19 like this, the ones you were able to look at over the weekend?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So as a result this one particular document, in response to

22 various lines of inquiry from the Chamber, in particular Judge Trechsel,

23 certainly Mr. Bozic, on preparing this report, was aware that this

24 prisoner had been wounded in the leg, and at least according to this

25 record, that information had been sent on to Mr. Coric, Mr. Pusic, and

Page 14769

1 Mr. Vidovic; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If I could, finally on this topic, ask you then to -- going back

4 to the principal working bundle, Exhibit P 04871. Do you have that, sir?

5 This is to cover again for the Judges to see as many different types of

6 records and forms as possible.

7 Can you tell us what this document is and if this was again

8 another type of form used for the purposes of taking prisoners for labour?

9 A. This is a form developed by the 3rd Brigade located in Heliodrom.

10 Q. The top of that -- I'm sorry.

11 A. And mostly these were signed by commander Bozo Pavlovic.

12 Q. And on the top of that -- top part of that page, is it correct --

13 do I understand correctly, for work location and the number of prisoners,

14 this would indicate that 25 prisoners were needed to work at Hum hill?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It indicates they were taken away on the 8th of September at 1900

17 hours. Can you tell -- if you can tell us anywhere on the document where

18 it would indicate when they were returned?

19 A. It's not written here.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. It's probably in the logbook that exists in the building from

22 which they were taken, such as the one that we've seen before. It must be

23 written when they were supposed to return.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to move away for the time

Page 14770

1 being from the topic of forced labour, but I want the Chamber to

2 understand that I intend to come back to that topic. We're not leaving

3 the topic permanently, but I will come back to it in a few minutes.

4 Q. Now, sir, moving to a different topic, in the course of 1993, did

5 you come to know of a practice by which prisoners at the Heliodrom prison

6 could be released from the custody of the prison in order to go to a third

7 country or to the Republic of Croatia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you very briefly, please -- can you, please, explain your

10 understanding on how that procedure worked. What did a prisoner have to

11 do to get himself or herself released to go to a third country?

12 A. Somebody would come from the office for exchanges. Mostly it was

13 Jerko Radic or Tomo Sakota. They would bring a certificate, as I

14 described before. And now I can only add briefly that the signature would

15 read Berislav Pusic with the approval of a SIS officer, and Miro Music,

16 and an officer of the crime prevention service, Vidovic. Jerko or Tomo

17 Sakota who would come on that occasion, on such occasions, would have a

18 paper, a letter of guarantee that somebody would receive them in a third

19 country. They would come bringing that kind of paper and take the person

20 concerned, who would then leave the prison.

21 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, whether this practice, that is

22 the release of prisoners to a third country, is that something that came

23 about after the arrest starting on the 30th of June, 1993?

24 A. The certificate itself and the method of release is the same.

25 It's just that somebody from the family or a friend had to bring the

Page 14771

1 certificate to the prisoner and the prison so that the request be

2 approved.

3 Q. All right. But just -- my question was more specifically when

4 this practice started and whether you can confirm that that was the

5 practice, that is releasing prisoners to third countries based on this

6 procedure, when that practice first came into existence and went forward.

7 A. Well, when we had the greatest number of those prisoners of war,

8 starting with July, that's when most of them were released on the basis of

9 these letters of guarantee.

10 Q. Could I ask you to look at Exhibit P 04686 in the main bundle,

11 please.

12 A. 40 --

13 Q. 04686. P 04686. Sir, can you confirm that this is the record

14 concerning the release of someone by the first name of Zijo around the

15 31st of August, 1993?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is that the type of paperwork or form that you are familiar

18 with that was used for that purpose?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look next at 06436. And can you tell us

21 what that Exhibit 6436 is?

22 A. This document was made by Mr. Bozic, and it's a list of detainees

23 who were held at the prison and had a letter of guarantee. It was sent to

24 Mr. Berislav Pusic in person, that is, to the office for exchange. Based

25 on this document and those letters of guarantee, a team of people would

Page 14772

1 release these people against the signature of Mr. Berislav Pusic.

2 Q. And a similar document - excuse me - number 6816. Is that a

3 similar record, same format but on -- dated the 22nd of November, 1993?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, what was the purpose of sending this information to

6 Mr. Pusic, if you can tell us?

7 A. I could explain. Because all these people who were in prison and

8 who received such letters of guarantee, in order to be released, needed

9 the signature of Mr. Berislav Pusic from the office of exchange. For that

10 reason and according to the records that were kept and the office of

11 exchange or the ICRC or whoever, would send this paper to him so that he

12 could do this part of the work with the crime prevention service or the

13 SIS before he gives his approval to release these people, and after

14 getting that approval, Mr. Berko Pusic would have them released.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, unless you have questions on that, I'm

17 going to move to another topic.

18 Q. Sir, so you've just told us that one of the ways to leave the

19 Heliodrom or to leave Herceg-Bosna for a third country was to have this

20 letter of guarantee to go to a third country. Did you ever learn about a

21 particular political party coming into the Heliodrom for purposes of

22 meeting with the prisoners?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us about that, please?

25 A. On the 30th of June, when people started to be brought in in large

Page 14773

1 groups, maybe a day or two passed, not more, before a group of people came

2 to Heliodrom to see Mr. Bozic. Those were a party of Mr. Pohara. I don't

3 know if I will get the name right, but I think it was MDS, and his members

4 from the town of Mostar.

5 Q. Did MDS, to your knowledge, stand for the Muslim Democratic Party?

6 A. I didn't give it much thought, but I would probably translate it

7 as you did.

8 Q. And you said these representatives of this MDS party associated

9 with Mr. Pohara came and met with Mr. Bozic; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, because I was there too.

11 Q. And what was that discussion about? What did this party want to

12 do?

13 A. The objective of this party was to hold a meeting with a group of

14 Muslim detainees from all the various buildings where they were held. The

15 reason was they wanted to tell them that all those who accept the platform

16 of that party can leave the prison immediately and return to their homes

17 where they, the party, would take care of them. That was the point of the

18 meeting.

19 Q. I ask you this next question, Mr. Praljak, not -- I think I know

20 your answer, but because I expect the Judges would ask it if I didn't. Do

21 you know what the politics or platform of this particular party was?

22 A. I really don't know, because I did not belong to that party, and I

23 know nothing about their platform or their objectives. It's the first

24 time I've heard of them then.

25 Q. Can I -- before continuing on with this, when these people came

Page 14774

1 and met with you and Mr. Bozic, presumably in the administrative building,

2 to ask if they could talk to the Muslim prisoners about this, did

3 Mr. Bozic have authority on his own to allow a political party to come

4 into the prison for the purposes of a meeting with prisoners, or to your

5 understanding, would that have required the authorisation of somebody

6 else?

7 A. Nobody, including a political -- a political party could go into

8 the barracks or the perimeter of the prison without approval. That means

9 that Mr. Bozic must have had approval from somebody that they should be

10 allowed in. I didn't see that approval.

11 Q. And I take it from your answer you can't provide us any more

12 particulars as to who gave the approval above Mr. Bozic's level for the

13 purpose of this political party to come into the prison?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. And did, in fact, as a result of this meeting with Mr. Bozic and

16 yourself, was this party allowed to meet with various Muslim prisoners at

17 the facility?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can you tell us whether any Muslim prisoners actually joined

20 the party and, as a result of joining the party, were in fact released

21 from prison?

22 A. I really don't know the number, but not many people signed up.

23 Q. If I can ask you briefly, please, to turn to Exhibit P 03193 in

24 your bundle. 3193.

25 If you have that, sir, can I just direct your attention to the

Page 14775

1 second paragraph of that document, the document itself being dated the 5th

2 of July, 1993. Does that indicate that at the request of the MDS and, as

3 previously agreed, 14 individuals, members of this party, have been

4 released? Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And would that generally be consistent with what you've told us

7 about a few moments ago?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, in the interest of time, I'm not going to

10 go to it, but I'll simply refer in the record there's a further reference

11 to the MDS being at the prison in Exhibit P 03942. Perhaps that can be

12 the subject of a follow-up motion on Exhibits P 03942.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Perhaps, Mr. Scott, it is also of some interest

14 to note that in the same document it is said that 24 HVO members have been

15 released.

16 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, sticking with this document, Your Honour.

18 It doesn't appear, at least on the document itself, that these people that

19 were released were converted to this particular party or joined this

20 particular party. So -- at least at this moment. It could have been that

21 they were already members of that party, I don't know. I'm not suggesting

22 they were one way or the other. But, at least, based on what Mr. Scott

23 said in his question, which seems to be assuming a fact that's not quite

24 in evidence, at least not based on this document itself, so I am objecting

25 to the form of the question and to the conclusion which he's trying to

Page 14776

1 derive from the introduction of this document.

2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm let the evidence of the

3 witness combined with the document speak for itself. The witness

4 indicated that he saw a few people took up the offer and were in fact

5 released, and I think the Chamber can take that evidence and this document

6 together and give it the value that the Chamber will decide to give.

7 Q. Sir, can you tell us, please, did you find out sometime in early

8 August 1993 that you had been appointed to a commission concerning HVO

9 prisons, that appointment coming from Bruno Stojic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us briefly what you know about the establishment of

12 that commission, when and how it came about? And let me just say

13 particularly by early -- let me back up. My apology. Let me rephrase it.

14 During late July -- during July and the first part of August of 1993, had

15 you and Mr. Bozic been raising a number of issues and concerns about the

16 HVO prisons, about forced labour and a number of issues, many of which --

17 some of which we will see in a few minutes, but can you just confirm that

18 was the case?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And can you then tell us what your understanding was of the -- how

21 the commission appointed by Mr. Stojic came into existence, as you

22 understand it?

23 A. I, as the fifth member, was handed the order, and at the same

24 time, it was brought to the awareness of Mr. Bozic as the warden. I

25 called as soon as I received it. I saw that Mr. Berislav Pusic was the

Page 14777

1 president of the commission, so I called him straight away and asked him

2 the same day whether he had received it before me, and when I told him

3 about the order, that I was the fifth member and when we would start

4 working, he had nothing to tell me. He just said, "We will do the work,"

5 and that was all the answer that he gave me pursuant to this order that

6 had been received.

7 Q. Before we go further on that, can I, in fact, ask you to look at

8 Exhibit P 03942, which in fact is the very exhibit that I had indicated we

9 would skip over, but in the very same exhibit is other information for

10 this purpose. So if we can, in fact, look at 3942.

11 If you have that, sir, can you confirm that this is a report from

12 Mr. Stanko Bozic to Valentin Coric and Mijo Jelic dated the 4th of August,

13 1993?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, on the first page, since -- since we now have it in front us,

16 on the second paragraph and in the original language version, you can see

17 the paragraph reference if you look at the time and dates numerically

18 dated 13.07.1993. Do you see there that in fact is a reference to that on

19 the 13th of July, 1993, with the permission of Mr. Vidovic, the MDS was

20 able to talk with members at the Heliodrom? The Heliodrom being the

21 facility that Mr. Bozic is reporting about? Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, can you look at the document, please, more generally and can

24 you just tell the -- again, our time is unfortunately short. In the

25 course of this report, does Mr. Bozic raise with Mr. Coric and Mr. Jelic a

Page 14778

1 number of issues or concerns about matters at the Heliodrom as of early

2 August 1993?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This report was written on the

4 30th of June -- or, rather, from the 30th of June to the 4th of August.

5 It relates to that entire period.

6 Q. All right. Does it indicate, for example, a number of health

7 issues including people -- detainees having scabs? Does it talk about

8 security lapses?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is there anything written in this report by Mr. Bozic that you

11 disagree with or that you don't confirm as being a concern that the two of

12 you had at the time?

13 A. Well, I'd have to read through it but that would take time.

14 Q. There's a paragraph, sir, toward -- toward the latter part of the

15 document. It says: "Every day we encounter security lapses." If you can

16 find that. "Although we warned in reports numbered 506/93 and 516/93 that

17 detainees were being taken home by our soldiers. Nothing has been

18 undertaken to stop this. To date nine detainees have been wounded by the

19 BH army while working." Do you see that passage?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you have any information whether either you or Mr. Bozic

22 received any response from Mr. Coric or Mr. Jelic to this report?

23 A. I did not. I don't know if Mr. Bozic did.

24 Q. This report is dated the 4th of August, 1993, and then in

25 reference to what we were talking about a few moments ago, if I can please

Page 14779

1 ask you now to return to P 03995. And, sir, is that the order by Bruno

2 Stojic dated four days later, on the 8th of August, 1993, establishing the

3 commission of which you were a member?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And are you listed as the fifth person appointed to this

6 commission, the first person listed being Mr. Berislav Pusic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who did you understand or come to know to be the president of this

9 commission established by Mr. Stojic?

10 A. Berislav Pusic, as it says in the order itself, next to his name,

11 is the president of the office for exchanges and president of the

12 commission. The last word says "President."

13 Q. It's -- your previous testimony has left the screen that most of

14 us have in front us now, Mr. Praljak, but I believe you said some minutes

15 ago now that when you learned of your appointment you had a short

16 conversation with Mr. Pusic? Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did you say to him and what did he say to you in response?

19 A. As soon as I received it and saw his name there - Mr. Bozic was

20 with me - I rang up straight away. The conversation was not long. All I

21 told him was that I received the order and that I was a member, and I

22 asked him when are we going to work. He never said when. He just

23 said, "We'll do the work." Perhaps he hadn't actually received this order

24 at the time that I rang him up. I can't know that.

25 Q. After that conversation with Mr. Pusic, could you tell the Judges,

Page 14780

1 did you ever hear from Mr. Pusic again about the work of this commission?

2 A. Never.

3 Q. Did you ever attend a meeting of this commission?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. All right. Before that I should have asked, were you ever invited

6 or given notice of any meetings of this commission?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you at any time report to the person who established this

9 commission, Mr. Stojic? Did you ever communicate to Mr. Stojic, to your

10 knowledge, the commission had never in fact been made operational? To

11 your knowledge?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you recall approximately when that was that you communicated

14 that to Mr. Stojic?

15 A. There's a document, but I wrote it to be handed personally to

16 Mr. Bruno Stojic and to Mr. Mladen Naletilic, aka Tuta. And after that I

17 wrote again. I wrote another letter which was addressed to General Roso,

18 Mr. Perica Jukic, and others who were named in the report.

19 Q. Just on those points, sir, at the time that those -- that second

20 letter was written, the one you just referred to, by approximately

21 November of 1993, had Mr. Slobodan Praljak been replaced as top commander

22 or head commander of the HVO by Mr. Roso, and had Mr. Stojic been replaced

23 as minister of defence by Mr. Perica Jukic?

24 A. At that point in time I didn't know that, so that's how I wrote

25 the report. All I did know was that General Roso had arrived and that he

Page 14781

1 was occupying that position. As for Mr. Bruno Stojic, I didn't know that

2 he had been replaced because I addressed the letter to him. And then I

3 was told that he had been replaced by Perica Jukic.

4 Q. Can I next ask you to look at Exhibit P 04002. And if you have

5 that, sir -- if you can just look at that for a moment. There's actual

6 two documents that are almost the same, or perhaps they are the same, but

7 in the interest of time, could you also then look at P 04141.

8 Both of those documents, sir, appear to be a record or purport to

9 be a record of action by the commission established by Mr. Stojic for

10 action taken on the 12th of August. Excuse me. And the second of the two

11 documents, if we could just look at that one, 4141, on the 12th of August,

12 1993.

13 And could you just start by telling us, you're listed at the end

14 of this document, I believe you're -- give me a moment, please. In the

15 earlier handwritten version which is the 4002, 4002, you are listed --

16 someone has listed your name in handwriting, Josip Praljak. Can you

17 simply tell us, did you in fact ever attend a meeting of this commission

18 on the 12th of August, 1993?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. And until -- until you saw this document in the last several days,

21 were you ever aware that the commission had issued such a document or

22 taken such an action around that time?

23 A. I did not know.

24 Q. In paragraph number 1 of what's called a decision, and I'm now

25 going to be referring to 4141, again it talks about the issue of

Page 14782

1 classification. And can you tell the Judges, Mr. Praljak, as of the 12th

2 of August, 1993, as to the prisoners who were kept at the Heliodrom, what

3 was their status of classification or not?

4 A. As far as the prisoners of war are concerned, up until the 12th of

5 August they were not separated. The prisoners of war were not separated

6 from the civilians.

7 Q. Did -- did you know, did the prison management know, or if you

8 know, did anyone in the HVO, of the people that were being held at the

9 Heliodrom, did anyone know which ones were prisoners of war and which ones

10 were civilians?

11 A. Only the service who worked, led by Zvonko Vidovic, knew that, and

12 the SIS, those who had their particulars and documents.

13 Q. Let me direct your attention next to Exhibit P 4352.

14 A. Can you repeat the number, please?

15 Q. Yes. P 04352. Sir, this is a report to Mr. Bruno Stojic dated

16 the 20th of August, 1993, which I believe the Chamber has seen previously.

17 Is it correct that in this letter Mr. Bozic raises three numbered concerns

18 here, one, sending detainees to work; two, the quality and quantity of

19 food; three, bad conditions in solitary cells? And did Mr. Bozic

20 communicate to Mr. Stojic at this time that he was concerned about

21 violations of the Geneva Conventions and possibly being brought before an

22 international Tribunal?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you recall whether either you, Mr. Praljak or Mr. Bozic,

25 received any response from Mr. Stojic to the report dated the 20 August

Page 14783

1 1983?

2 A. I don't know about him.

3 Q. Well, let me just for the record, so the record is clear, what was

4 just put in the transcript, sir, is, "I don't know about him." I asked

5 you whether you or Mr. Bozic received any response to Mr. Bozic's report

6 to Mr. Stojic. Are you aware of any response that either you or Mr. Bozic

7 received?

8 A. I did not. Whether Mr. Bozic did receive any, I don't know.

9 Q. Can I ask you please to look at Exhibit 4512. This is a report

10 dated the 25th of August, 1993, apparently prepared, it appears to be, for

11 Mr. Bozic's signature, but is that in fact your signature?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, can you tell the Judges, without looking at every single such

14 document, were you continuing to report about the wounding of prisoners

15 taken for forced labour during this time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And is that particular document, 4512, would you consider that to

18 be representative of the type of reports that you and Mr. Bozic were

19 making during this time period?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could I ask you next to please look at Exhibit 4500. 4500. Is

22 that a report, sir, dated the 25th of August, 1993, that you sent to the

23 office for the exchange of captives, attention Mr. Berko Pusic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct that this concerned a list of detainees who had come

Page 14784

1 from Doljani and Sovici and at least three of whom, number 15, 16, and 17,

2 were receiving medical treatment?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Why did you send this particular report or others like it to

5 Mr. Pusic?

6 A. As the representative of the office for exchange, he had to have

7 all the information about every detainee who was in prison, and here we

8 have a list of detainees from Doljani and Sovici who were at that time

9 doing labour or were in hospital for treatment on that particular day.

10 Q. Can you tell us around this time, August of 1993, because I'm not

11 sure the Chamber will know the name or not -- if you do, Your Honours, I

12 apologise for taking your time.

13 But, sir, can you tell us who Zarko Tole was and what position he

14 held in August of 1993?

15 A. All I know is that he was a general. Now, what post he held and

16 what task he performed, I don't know. All I know is that he was at the

17 headquarters in Citluk.

18 Q. When you say headquarters, headquarters of what?

19 A. The HVO staff.

20 Q. Did you know that Mr. Tole to be the Chief of Staff, head of

21 administration, if you will, chief of administration to either

22 Mr. Slobodan Praljak or Mr. Petkovic or both?

23 A. I did not know what his duties were. All I did know was that he

24 was in Citluk and that that's where his headquarters were, but what

25 function he exercised, I don't know. He was a general. A general's a

Page 14785

1 general.

2 Q. Now, sir, I'd ask you to look at Exhibit 4233. 4233. Sir,

3 according to this document, which is dated the 16th of August, 1993, it

4 appears to bear your signature, if you can confirm that. You wrote a

5 letter or made a report to Mr. Zarko Tole. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, let me go back, sir. Surely in writing a letter to someone

8 you've indicated as a senior officer, you must have had some information

9 as to why you would take the time to bother to write a letter to Mr. Tole

10 around the middle of August 1993, as to who he was and why it might be

11 important for him to receive such a letter.

12 A. As a lot of time had passed and on the report here, which is

13 correct as it was, as it was written, it said the Main Staff -- it was

14 addressed to the Main Staff, and Mr. Zarko Tole was probably the head of

15 the Main Staff of the HVO. But I didn't know that level of command

16 because it was a higher level that I wasn't acquainted with.

17 Q. Was Mr. Tole -- and I realise, Your Honour, we're coming up on a

18 break, if I can have just one or two more questions about this document.

19 Was Mr. Tole in your immediate chain of command, sir? If you can

20 tell us that.

21 A. Well, in my opinion, no, he wasn't. But I did address him because

22 I addressed all the others, too, who were above superior, that something

23 should be done. I addressed them as a member of the commission, and I

24 addressed him too so that he should be informed of the situation as well.

25 Q. By the middle of August and even by the end of August, sir, can

Page 14786

1 you tell the Judges whether you had received any satisfaction from either

2 Mr. Stojic, Mr. Coric, Mr. Pusic, or anyone else to whom you were making

3 your various complaints?

4 A. No.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it might be time for the break.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we did not see

7 that Mr. Praljak sent any complaints to Mr. Pusic as the president of the

8 commission, so I object to that question from the Prosecution.

9 MR. SCOTT: I'll come back to it if Your Honours want me to after

10 the break.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: He should -- he should describe under what --

12 exactly what his position is under the signature or above the signature.

13 It says that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll do that. I'll ask.

15 We'll save time.

16 Mr. Praljak, when you signed, you were assistant commander of the

17 5th Battalion of the military police, were you? And underneath it

18 says "Deputy warden." Do you confirm that you were indeed attached to the

19 5th Battalion of the military police?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the whole of the prison was

21 part of the 5th Battalion of the military police from June 1993 onwards.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And within the 5th

23 Battalion, did you have a rank or position of assistant commander?

24 Assistant battalion commander?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 14787

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So why then does it say that

2 under your name or above your name?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that, but I was the

4 deputy warden.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So does that mean that you

6 signed anything and everything?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not anything and everything.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you said, I don't know.

9 Your answer was, I don't know. Now, you're given a title here and you're

10 signing under that title. So are you challenging the fact that you were

11 assistant commander of the 5th Battalion assistant to or just assistant

12 commander, whatever?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never was any of that. I was

14 never the assistant commander of the 5th Battalion.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, the gentleman indicated on page 66,

16 line 2 that he signed it as a member of the commission, thereby giving the

17 implication that it was he, as a member of the commission, signing it.

18 That question needs to be posed. We could do that after the break, but

19 certainly from the document, there is no indication that he's sending it

20 on behalf of him being a member of the commission, but rather as a deputy

21 warden. And I think that was the point of the objection because the

22 gentleman obviously is being economical with the truth.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The observation made by

24 Mr. Karnavas is highly relevant.

25 When you signed this document, did you say you were signing it

Page 14788

1 like -- you said you were signing it as a member of the commission, but on

2 this document, at no point does it say that you are a member of the

3 commission, and you're not sending a copy to the other members of the

4 commission. So do you have an explanation for that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the fifth member of the

6 commission, I wrote --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. Don't say "as." The

8 document doesn't mention at any point that you were a member of the

9 commission. Perhaps in your mind you were, but this -- in this document,

10 there's nothing which allows us to say and conclude that you were a member

11 of the commission, and you didn't even send a copy to Mr. Pusic, did you?

12 Well, you can think about it during the break.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer straight away.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Think about it. It's 12.30, and

15 we'll reconvene in 20 minutes' time and hear your answer.

16 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we have just a short

19 hour ahead of us, so let's start.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Sir, just to follow up on some questions from the Judges before

22 the break. When you learned that you had been appointed to this

23 commission as a result of the order by Mr. Stojic in August, did you take

24 that seriously?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14789

1 Q. And did you -- did you take that to add to the responsibility that

2 you already felt about dealing with these -- the issues that you've been

3 telling us about yesterday and today?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So whether you said it on this document -- on a particular

6 document or not, you felt that you were acting -- during this time period

7 after the 11th of August, you felt that in addition to acting in your

8 capacity as deputy warden that you also had this additional further

9 responsibility of being a member of the Stojic commission? Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at Exhibit 5437. And in the

13 interest of time, sir, the point really in showing this document to you

14 and to the Judges is, did you continue on throughout this period,

15 continuing until even here, the 28th of September and thereafter, to make

16 various reports and state the concerns that you had about the treatment of

17 prisoners?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that your signature on that report?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you find around this time that not only were prisoners being

22 taken out for labour but in many instances they were being kept out --

23 kept away from the Heliodrom for extended periods of time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let me ask you to, please, go to Exhibit 5881. Do you have that,

Page 14790

1 sir? This appears to be an order issued by Milivoj Petkovic dated the

2 14th of October, 1993, from Citluk HVO headquarters indicating:

3 "1. "I hereby prohibit the use of prisoners to carry out any type

4 of work in the brigade zones of responsibilities.

5 "2. If, however, this sort of activity is allowed, the permit

6 shall be issued by the HVO Main Staff.

7 "3. Anyone caught breaching this order shall be held

8 accountable."

9 Can you tell us if you recall when you first learned of this order

10 by Mr. Petkovic?

11 A. I heard about it for the first time upon my return from sick leave

12 somewhere towards the end of October.

13 Q. Do you know whether -- can you tell the Judges, did the use of

14 forced labour continue after Mr. Petkovic issued the order reflected in

15 this exhibit, 5881?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us about a particular instance where forced labour

18 was -- prisoners were taken out for labour by someone named Sopta.

19 A. As far as the word goes, Sopta, that was the commander of the 2nd

20 brigade, Guards Brigade, which was established towards the end of 1993,

21 and Baja Sopta didn't take them away, but it was with his signature that

22 people left to do labour. Not only along with his signature but also that

23 of Mile Pusic.

24 Q. Did you raise the fact that these prisoners were being sent out?

25 Did you raise that with Mr. Bozic, Stanko Bozic?

Page 14791

1 A. Yes, and I wrote a report, too, or reports to Mr. Bruno Stojic,

2 since I didn't know that at the time he had left to take up another

3 function elsewhere; and to General Roso; to Rado Lavric, who was acting

4 chief of the military police administration; and Mr. Perica Jukic, who was

5 there at the time.

6 Q. Now, just to follow up on that. You've just mentioned the name of

7 a man named Rado Lavric who we've -- we've seen the name on several

8 documents. Did you learn around this time that he had become, that is

9 late October into November 1993, in that time period, that he had become

10 the acting chief of the HVO military police taking Mr. Coric's place?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So did you come to know again, sir, that by early November 1993

13 Mr. Slobodan Praljak was no longer head of the HVO, Mr. Bruno Stojic was

14 no longer minister of defence, and Mr. Coric was no longer chief of

15 military police?

16 A. I did not know.

17 Q. When did you first begin to learn that information?

18 A. When I sent out a report which related to -- or, rather, which was

19 addressed to Mr. Bruno Stojic, and that's when I learnt that Mr. Bruno

20 Stojic no longer occupied that post but that it was Perica Jukic. That's

21 what they were -- that's what they told me in the building where Mr. Bruno

22 Stojic was.

23 Q. Do you know where the decisions were made removing those three

24 people from those existing posts?

25 A. That is something that is unknown to me.

Page 14792

1 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at P 07004. I asked you a few

2 moments ago if the practice of forced labour continued after the order

3 issued by Mr. Petkovic. And if you could look, please, at Exhibit 7004.

4 Can you just quickly confirm to us, please, is this again a form of

5 document similar to those we've seen before indicating on the 1st of

6 December, 1993, Mr. Jelic approved the sending out of 30 detainees from

7 the Heliodrom for the purposes of work?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if I can ask you to go to the next document, 7107. And is

10 this a similar approval or order for labour dated the 10th of December,

11 1993, again approved by Mr. Jelic, this time sending out two prisoners

12 from the Heliodrom prison?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the order issued by Mr. Petkovic, it's paragraph -- the last

15 paragraph number 3, said something to the effect that anyone violating his

16 order would be held accountable. To your knowledge, sir - of course, we

17 can only ask for what you know - did you ever know anyone to be punished,

18 disciplined, prosecuted, dismissed for the use of forced labour after

19 Mr. Petkovic's order or at any time?

20 A. I couldn't know that at all.

21 Q. Did you know of anyone -- were any of are officers, were any of

22 your military police officers disciplined or removed because they had been

23 involved in forced labour?


25 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

Page 14793

1 JUDGE PRANDLER: I would like only to ask the witness that to your

2 question Mr. Scott he answered in English on the transcript that, "I could

3 not know that at all." My question is, if you could not know about it

4 because you were in a way prevented to do so or to be able to know about

5 it, or you did not know about it, meaning that if you did not know if

6 anybody was in a way taken to the courts or to any other level of criminal

7 punishment. So my question is, if you did not know or if you could not

8 know -- if you could not know about those measures, disciplinary measures,

9 et cetera, then why you could not or should not know about them?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My work post was related just to

11 Heliodrom, nothing else. So there's no way I could have known what was

12 going on elsewhere.

13 JUDGE PRANDLER: Thank you.


15 Q. Let me follow up on that, sir. But you've shown us today and

16 we've looked at a number of documents where you were raising, if I can say

17 you were waving the flag on this as well as other issues, the use of

18 forced labour, the wounding of prisoners. Weren't you interested or

19 curious to know if anyone in the HVO was being punished or disciplined in

20 connection with that behaviour?

21 A. We cannot know in the prison why somebody was condemned and

22 convicted to serve a sentence. All we know is that they came. Now, why

23 they came, why they were there, what they had done and so on, we didn't

24 know.

25 Q. In relation to a document that I'm going to show you in a moment,

Page 14794

1 can you confirm that, in connection with the arrest that started on the

2 30th of June, 1993, were some Muslim women arrested and held at the

3 Heliodrom?

4 A. There were few women who were placed in the prison building.

5 Q. When you say a few, can you give us your best estimate of a

6 number, please?

7 A. Well, I can't be exact, but four or five women perhaps. I can't

8 remember. I know there was some.

9 Q. And can you tell us where in the Heliodrom facility were these

10 women held or confined?

11 A. They were physically separated from the others, the prisoners of

12 war and the military prisoners, and they were confined on the second floor

13 where -- and the key to that area, only the security commander had the key

14 to that area.

15 Q. And when you say "security commander" now, are you referring to

16 Mr. Smiljanic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you come to know in the fall of 1993 that these five women

19 apparently had been released?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm sorry, but before I come to that, did you ever understand any

22 reason or basis for why these women were being held?

23 A. As I've already said, we don't know what the reason for their

24 incarceration was.

25 MR. SCOTT: Well, perhaps to be very, very safe, Your Honour, we

Page 14795

1 should go into private session for one second.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14796











11 Pages 14796-14797 redacted. Private session















Page 14798

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

4 Mr. President.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, you've made several references today to a report or a

7 communication that you sent to Mr. Stojic and to Mr. Naletilic, Tuta. As

8 we will see and I will ask the courtroom to turn to P 06170. Did you

9 include in your -- in that letter your concern about the fact that these

10 people had been released and how that had happened?

11 A. Yes. When I arrived back from sick leave, in talking to Snjezana

12 Cvitanovic and having an insight into the documents, I happened to notice

13 that a group of female detainees, including (redacted) had been

14 released, but on that list all it said was -- all it had was the signature

15 of Mr. Berko Pusic. Now, since release from prison is something that I

16 could consider nobody could permit without having previously been granted

17 permission and with agreement of Zvonko Vidovic --

18 Q. I apologise to the witness for interruption, but even though we've

19 done it in any event out of an abundance of caution, could we ask for a

20 redaction, please, of Ms. (redacted) name. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Registrar, issue an

22 order to have that name redacted. Line 16, page 78.


24 Q. Sir, you were telling us about the letter that -- the

25 communication you were discussing with your secretary Ms. Cvitanovic.

Page 14799

1 Could you just continue on, please, but you need not mention probably the

2 names of any particular prisoners.

3 A. Snjezana -- Snjezana Cvitanovic showed me some documents where I

4 saw this document too. However, the signatory of this document on the

5 release was the signature of Berislav Pusic.

6 Now, since there was no previous document, a previous document was

7 lacking about release from prison, we weren't able to see any agreement.

8 We weren't able to see the agreement given by SIS and the crime prevention

9 service of the military police. That is why I considered that this was

10 irregular release and I wrote the document.

11 Q. Could I just ask you to very briefly look back at -- I believe it

12 would be the immediately preceding document in the bundle, P 05952. And

13 again, perhaps it might be best again if we didn't broadcast the document

14 outside the courtroom, and I'll just ask you, Witness, not to mention any

15 of the names on the document, but can you just simply confirm to us that

16 this is an approval signed by -- well, apparently over the name of

17 Mr. Pusic, dated the 19th of October, 1993, and is this part of what you

18 were complaining about in your letter to Mr. Stojic and Mr. Tuta?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Let's go back to your actual letter to Mr. Stojic and

21 Mr. Tuta -- or Mr. Naletilic I suppose I should say, 6170. Once you

22 prepare the letter, which we have in front us, could you tell us -- tell

23 the Judges, please, how did you go back delivering that to Mr. Stojic and

24 Mr. Naletilic?

25 A. The letter that I wrote I personally took and handed over to the

Page 14800

1 secretary of Mr. Bruno Stojic.

2 Q. And do you recall where that office was located at the time when

3 you delivered the letter there?

4 A. I don't know how to explain it. It was in town, and perhaps the

5 briefest way to tell you is along the Partisan cemetery -- or by the

6 Partisan cemetery in the centre of town.

7 Q. When you say "town" you're referring to Mostar?

8 A. Yes, that's right, in Mostar.

9 Q. What made you, by the way, decide to not only provide this report

10 to Mr. Stojic but to also provide the same report to Mr. Naletilic?

11 A. At the time, I considered that Mr. Bruno Stojic was the president

12 of the office, and that Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, was an advisor to

13 Mr. Bruno Stojic for security matters.

14 Q. All right. Let me stop you for a moment, please. When you say

15 that you considered that Mr. Stojic was president of the office, can you

16 tell us a bit more about what you mean by that? Or maybe it's

17 translation, I'm not sure, but what position are you ascribing to

18 Mr. Stojic when you say that?

19 A. He was the head, the head of the HVO.

20 Q. All right. And you said that Mr. Naletilic was an advisor to

21 Mr. Stojic for security matters?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you know where Mr. Tuta's -- sorry, Mr. Naletilic's office

24 was in that capacity in relationship to Mr. Stojic's office?

25 A. When you enter the building, on that first floor, on the

Page 14801

1 right-hand side was Mr. Bruno Stojic's office, and straight from the

2 stairs on there was the office of Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta. They were

3 next to each other.

4 Q. And did you personally hand your report, which is reflected in

5 Exhibit 6170, to the secretary for Mr. Stojic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you tell us -- again, I'll ask, do you recall ever

8 receiving a response from either Mr. Stojic or Mr. Naletilic to your

9 report?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And just before we leave this document, unless the Judges have

12 additional questions, your report or letter itself, you refer at the very

13 beginning to the order of the 10th of August establishing the commission

14 and appointing you to it. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can I ask you then to go to Exhibit 6848. And can you tell us

17 what this document is, please?

18 A. This document was drafted right afterwards, shortly afterwards, at

19 the same time were I addressed all the things that were happening at

20 Heliodrom and asking for assistance to improve the conditions there and to

21 improve our work. Some important things were emphasised, namely, that the

22 shortage of security personnel needs to be addressed, that security needs

23 to be enforced to make the prison safer.

24 In this document I also draw their attention to the fact that

25 Major General Milivoj Petkovic prohibited the handing over of prisoners

Page 14802

1 for labour, and Mr. Stanko Bozic obeyed this order and demanded that all

2 the detainees, who had left to do some labour and had not been returned,

3 be brought back. At the time of this letter, the time of this report,

4 there were still some detainees who had not been brought back, and this

5 was also filed in the archives of the prison.

6 I also stress that Mr. Stanko Bozic, in concurrence with the then

7 brigade commander, allowed those people to go out to work in logistical

8 bases, workshops, the kitchen, to clean the town, to clean streets, the

9 barracks, et cetera. However, from individual sources, I cannot know

10 which, news had reached me that those prisoners were allegedly taken

11 outside the perimeter of Heliodrom, and outside Heliodrom there were cases

12 of escape, injuries, and deaths. I learned that from people who simply

13 told me about it. I also mention here that one prisoner escaped from a

14 place called Vrde, from a group that was taken away by the brigade led by

15 Stanko or Ranko Boban. I demanded that steps be taken immediately to

16 improve the work of the prison and to improve -- to improve security and

17 safety and to finally clear up who was authorised to approve releases of

18 prisoners to work who had authority over the central prison of Mostar.

19 And I addressed that to Mr. Roso, Mr. Lavric, and Perica Jukic.

20 Q. On that last point, sir, we see that in the original Croatian

21 language version, we can see that the name Bruno Stojic has been stricken

22 through and above it has been handwritten "Perica Jukic." Is that a

23 change that you made to the document or, to your knowledge, is that

24 something that somebody else did after it left your hands?

25 A. Snjezana typed this report, and when we were about to send it off

Page 14803

1 somebody said that Mr. Bruno Stojic was no longer in that position, and

2 then I wrote in my own hand the name that I was told, although I had never

3 seen that gentleman.

4 Q. Let me ask you before turning to a couple of final topics whether

5 during 1993 -- let me back up, please.

6 You testified yesterday, I believe, that Mr. Coric came to the

7 Heliodrom prison when Mr. Stanko Bozic was installed as warden in about

8 December 1992; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that time, and it's between that time and the end of -- or

11 late 1993 or at the date of your report to Mr. Roso and others dated the

12 24th of November, 1993, to your knowledge, had you ever seen Mr. Coric at

13 the Heliodrom prison ever again between December 1992 and the end of

14 November 1993?

15 A. Never. Never. He never came.

16 Q. And can I ask a similar question about Mr. Stojic. Just during

17 1993, can you tell the Judges any occasion that you recall meeting or

18 seeing Mr. Stojic at the Heliodrom prison?

19 A. Mr. Bruno Stojic never came to Heliodrom.

20 Q. Did you understand when you were appointed to this commission in

21 August that the commission extended not only as to Heliodrom but also

22 related to other HVO prisons such as, for example, Ljubuski?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell the Judges -- excuse me.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 14804

1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ibrisimovic, microphone, please.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

3 already answered, but I do object to this line of questioning. The

4 question is -- the witness is being led.

5 MR. SCOTT: Well, let me just ask this.

6 Q. Can you tell us, sir -- can you tell the Judges about any

7 transfers of prisoners between Ljubuski and Heliodrom that you may recall?

8 A. I recall a number of people with regard to which Stanko Bozic

9 entrusted me with admitting those people who were supposed to arrive from

10 Ljubuski. It was rather a large group, perhaps 200 people.

11 Q. Did you know any particular prisoner who was ever transferred --

12 an individual prisoner who was transferred from the Heliodrom to Ljubuski

13 during 1993? I mean a personal acquaintance. Not just someone you knew

14 the name, but someone that you knew personally.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was that?

17 A. Hamdija Jahic.

18 Q. How did you know Mr. Jahic?

19 A. He used to work before the war at the municipality in Mostar, and

20 we had known each other for many years.

21 Q. And can you tell the Judges, has he held any position in Mostar

22 either currently or in the last few years in a senior government position?

23 A. He was the head of a legal department in the municipal government.

24 That's all I knew. But I think it had something to do with town planning

25 in Mostar.

Page 14805

1 Q. Forgive me, my question probably wasn't very clear. More

2 recently, either today or in the last year or so, has Mr. Jahic been the

3 mayor of Mostar?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I take it -- is it correct that Mr. Jahic is a Muslim?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you tell the Judges anything more you can recall about the

8 time that he was transferred from the Heliodrom to Ljubuski?

9 A. All I know is that he didn't go on his own. There was an order

10 that I hadn't seen to move a group of detainees to the Ljubuski prison.

11 Q. Did you hear these -- this particular group described in any

12 particular way or anything that marked or identified this particular group

13 of people that were transferred along with Mr. Jahic?

14 A. They were not described in any particular way, but I saw them. I

15 didn't know their names. I just recognised him. I think that this group

16 was a group of more educated people.

17 Q. And going to the HVO -- excuse me, facility at Dretelj, were you

18 still working at the Heliodrom in late 1993 when any prisoners were

19 brought there from Dretelj and, if so, can you tell us what you saw at

20 that time?

21 A. Yes. Since it was a very hot season -- it was very, very hot when

22 those prisoners were moved to Heliodrom by trucks. They got off near the

23 school building. There they were admitted and listed and put up in the

24 school building or inside gyms and halls.

25 Q. What was the appearance or condition of these prisoners when you

Page 14806

1 saw them come off the trucks at the Heliodrom?

2 A. In view of that heat and how they got there travelling in covered

3 trucks, of course they were sweaty, unshaven, dishevelled, and unkempt.

4 When I came close I felt an unpleasant smell.

5 Q. Sir, I asked you yesterday that -- how you felt on the 9th of May,

6 1993, when you saw these women and children coming into the Heliodrom.

7 Let me ask you a similar question now. When you saw these men arrive from

8 Dretelj, how did you feel about that? How did it make you feel?

9 A. It made me feel bad because I ran into a neighbour of mine, a man

10 who lived in the same apartment building.

11 Q. He was one of the prisoners?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was his condition like, and did he say anything to you at the

14 time or afterwards?

15 A. Well, since I knew the man, his name was Zijo Maksumic, and we

16 were close, and we were good neighbours, always courteous to each other.

17 I asked him, "How are you faring Zijo?" And he was silent for a while

18 before he said, and I quote, "Just spend one day in Dretelj and you'll

19 find out." That was our entire conversation.

20 Q. Sir, did you find that -- or can you tell us that in approximately

21 December 1993 a number of the HVO prisons or detention facilities were

22 closed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And can you tell us anything about the decisions or actions that

25 led up to the camps being closed, or is that something you cannot help us

Page 14807

1 with?

2 A. I know nothing about other prisons, only Heliodrom.

3 Q. Did you learn at some time, then, that as to the Heliodrom prison,

4 a number of prisoners, a large number of prisoners would be released?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Just tell us what happened at that time. Again, did this have

7 anything to do with the classification or categories of prisoners, and

8 what happened in connection with these people actually leaving the

9 facility?

10 A. Larger groups that left the prison were subject to a procedure

11 involving officials of the office for exchanges and the International Red

12 Cross. The ICRC was present at all those large releases. Everybody was

13 released in that period except for those prisoners against whom criminal

14 reports were filed, and they remained and were moved to the prison

15 building.

16 Q. Can you give to the Judges any information, please, as to when you

17 say everybody was released in that period except for those prisoners

18 against whom criminal reports were filed, approximately, of the total

19 number of men or people who were still held at the Heliodrom as of

20 December 1993, what percentage or what number were actually kept or

21 actually kept behind, if you will, as persons against whom criminal

22 reports were pending?

23 A. I can't remember the number, and I don't want to venture a figure,

24 but I can say that all of them could fit into the prison building, the one

25 that was meant to be a prison.

Page 14808

1 Q. So the number was sufficiently small that you didn't have to use

2 the school or the sports hall any more to hold these prisoners against

3 whom military -- excuse me, criminal reports were pending; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, it's time. There is

7 a hearing in this courtroom after us. I think you have about 30 minutes

8 to conclude tomorrow. That would allow the Defence to use up all their

9 time, and they have to be careful about that. Tomorrow, Mr. Scott,

10 therefore, you have 30 minutes to conclude.

11 Witness, you will return tomorrow at 9.00 a.m., and until that

12 time, as I said yesterday, you are not going to meet with or talk with

13 anybody.

14 Is there anything to add, Mr. Scott?

15 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, except to say that I hope to actually

16 not need the 30 minutes, but I do think there will be a few remaining

17 items. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I thank you in

19 advance for that.

20 So until tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day

23 of February, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.