Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15948

1 Tuesday, 20 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The Accused Coric not present in court]

5 [The Accused Pusic not present in court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

8 case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecution versus Prlic et al.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

12 Mr. Registrar.

13 I'd like to greet everyone here in this courtroom, Mr. Mundis,

14 Mr. Kruger. We would also like to greet the Defence counsel here today

15 as well as the accused. I see that two of the accused are victims of the

16 flu epidemic. I hope this won't affect the other accused present today

17 in the courtroom. I would also like to greet everyone else in the

18 courtroom.

19 Let me first give the floor to the registrar. We need two IC

20 numbers.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. So several

22 parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered thank you Witness

23 Salem Cerenic. The list submitted by OTP shall be given Exhibit number IC

24 495, while the list submitted by 5D shall be given Exhibit number IC 496.

25 Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 15949

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 I'm first going to read out a decision. I'm going to read it out

3 slowly for it to be interpreted properly, without any mistakes.

4 This is a decision on the application made by the parties to be

5 heard about matters related to the -- to procedural matters.

6 At the hearings of the 14th, 15th, and 19th of March, 2007, the

7 parties invited the Chamber to hold a meeting on matters related to the

8 proceedings. The Chamber has decided to hold a hearing on these matters

9 this Thursday, 22nd of March, 2007, at 9.00 in Courtroom II. Let me add

10 that because Courtroom II is so small, and it is free because Dragomir

11 Milosevic Chamber is currently in Sarajevo, because the courtroom is so

12 small we won't be able to accommodate the accused in that particular

13 courtroom, but the accused will be represented by their counsel, of

14 course.

15 The Trial Chamber notes, however, that during the hearings of the

16 14th, 15th, and 19th of March, 2007, the Prosecution, as well as some

17 Defence counsel, have already expressed part of their concerns, and

18 therefore this -- it will not be necessary to repeat this.

19 The Chamber believes that this hearing should be held without the

20 accused being present since only matters of a purely technical and

21 procedural nature will be raised at the meeting.

22 For the hearing to be as fruitful and constructive as possible,

23 the Trial Chamber would like to invite the party to submit a list of the

24 points they want to discuss during the hearing, and they should do so by

25 tomorrow, 11.00 a.m. The Trial Chamber invites the Defence teams to get

Page 15950

1 together in order for them to submit a single list common to all Defence

2 counsel. On the basis of these two lists the Trial Chamber will set the

3 agenda for the meeting, and this agenda will be announced to the parties

4 tomorrow afternoon at the beginning of the hearing.

5 The Trial Chamber would like to inform the Prosecution and the

6 Defence that each of them will have a maximum of 60 minutes to make their

7 respective submissions. Let me specify that 60 minutes for the Defence

8 means 60 minutes for the -- all the Defence teams taken together. We

9 don't have time to dedicate six hours to this matters. For the Defence --

10 therefore, it's 60 minutes for the Defence.

11 So let me summarise. We will have a hearing on Thursday morning

12 at 9.00 in Courtroom II. And that was this decision that I wanted to

13 deliver orally here.

14 Let me say that, as far as I'm concerned, when I read the

15 transcript of last Thursday and I listened to what I had said, I

16 identified 22 mistakes, 22 corrections that had to be made, errors,

17 omissions that could distort the meaning of what I said. I will issue an

18 order about these 22 corrections that should be made, and I will ask the

19 registry to make sure that the transcript in French is true to the

20 recording, and of course the English translation, it also to reflect what

21 I said in French. I will issue an order in that respect in the next few

22 days.

23 Let me add one more thing, one last thing to avoid any

24 misunderstanding. When the Trial Chamber issues a decision, this is a

25 decision issued by the three Judges. Theoretically any of us, any of the

Page 15951

1 three Judges could read this decision because it's a common decision.

2 However, when a Judge puts a question, he's -- only the Judge who asks the

3 question is involved, and when a Judge makes a submission it's his own

4 personal submission. So you have to make a difference between a decision

5 rendered by the Trial Chamber and a question or a submission made by a

6 Judge on his own behalf.

7 As an example, I would give you what I said previously. What I've

8 just said I said on my own behalf, but the judgement I rendered on behalf

9 of the three Judges.

10 We have a number of witnesses this afternoon. I see that we have

11 a lot of people in the public gallery. These witnesses we will hear will

12 have protective measures granted to them; but, however, the public in the

13 public gallery will be able to follow the proceedings. But let me say

14 that these witnesses will benefit from the following protective measures:

15 Pseudonym and distortion of the -- facial distortion.

16 We'll have the witnesses brought in. We'll roll the blinds down

17 and then we'll ask the witness to make the solemn declaration.

18 Afterwards, we'll raise the blinds again and then the hearing and the

19 testimony will start.

20 I will ask the usher to roll down the blinds in order for the

21 first witness to be able to enter the courtroom.

22 Mr. Mundis, you have -- you wanted to make a three-minute

23 submission about the schedule?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your Honours,

25 counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

Page 15952

1 In light of the fact that we ran a little long yesterday, I would

2 like in private session just to outline very quickly where we expect or

3 hope to be going this week with respect to witnesses.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. Let's move into private

5 session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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Page 15953











11 Pages 15953-15955 redacted. Private session















Page 15956

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

24 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, we are in open session, but --

Page 15957

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. -- nobody outside the courtroom can see your face and your name

3 cannot be recognised. What I'm going to ask you is don't mention any

4 names of any family members or of acquaintances of you unless I ask you to

5 do so. Okay?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Right. Now, first of all, could you tell the Court during 1993,

8 is it correct that you were living outside Vares? The town of Vares.

9 A. On the outskirts of the town of Vares.

10 Q. And is it also correct that at some stage during 1993, because

11 your husband was away on business --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. Excuse me. At

13 some point you said that there was a voice distortion granted but we don't

14 have any voice distortion. We only have facial distortion.

15 MR. KRUGER: Sorry. That's my mistake, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, sorry, did you understand that I had made a mistake, that

17 your voice is not being distorted outside the courtroom?

18 Witness, is it correct -- I'll just repeat the previous question.

19 Is it correct that during 1993 you were alone -- living alone at your

20 house because your husband was away on business?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And during the evenings, who came to stay with you?

23 A. My younger sister.

24 Q. Is it correct that shortly before the 23rd of October, 1993,

25 you and your sister moved to the house of your parents in the town of

Page 15958

1 Vares?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What caused you to move to your parents' house?

4 A. Well, in our municipality there were two flags. There was one

5 Yugoslav flag and one Croatian flag. This Croatian flag was hoisted when

6 the Croats took over in Vares, and two days later or, rather, after the

7 attack on Vares they put the Yugoslavia flag down and only the Croatian

8 flag was left, and that made me feel suspicious, and I said to my

9 sister, "Let's go to our parents' house." And we spent two nights down

10 there until Vares was attacked on the 23rd of November.

11 Q. Now, before coming to that day, prior to that period, prior to the

12 23rd of October [sic], 1993, were there any check-points, military

13 check-points, in the vicinity of where you stayed?

14 A. Yes. Throughout Vares there were check-points.

15 Q. And which -- from which army were these check-points or by which

16 army's personnel were they being manned?

17 A. HVO.

18 Q. How did you know that?

19 A. Well, we knew. Everybody knew.

20 Q. And how did you know? From what?

21 A. Well, we knew that they took over power in Vares, and they had

22 insignia. They had the chequer-board emblem on their uniforms, on their

23 caps. They wore Croatian uniforms.

24 Q. Now, madam, if we could move to the morning of the 23rd of October

25 [sic], 1993. Can you tell the Court what happened at the house of your

Page 15959

1 father? And I will stop you after the departure of the first group of

2 soldiers.

3 MR. KRUGER: Sorry, if I may just correct the transcript. I

4 referred at page 11, line 2, to the 23rd of November. I mean the 23rd of

5 October, 1993.

6 Q. Yes?

7 A. On the 23rd, in the morning, that was the 23rd of November, we got

8 up -- in actual fact we were awake at 6.00 in the morning.

9 Q. November or October?

10 A. November. November. The month of November, not October.

11 I'm sorry. I'm so confused now. They came at 6.00 in the

12 morning. They knocked at the door, and I opened the door. My father had

13 gotten up already. He was in the bathroom. When I opened the door I saw

14 three Croat soldiers. They asked whether there were any men in the house,

15 and I said only our old father, who was sick. They actually asked for his

16 ID, and he showed them his ID, and they saw what his age was, and they

17 said that he should come with them. He just needed to wash his face, to

18 comb his hair, but they didn't let him. They just let him put on his

19 coat. And then we beseeched them to let our father go.

20 He had had two heart attacks. He was an old man, 74 years old.

21 They were clamouring, and they didn't let him wash his face or get dressed

22 properly, and they told us that we shouldn't leave the house, that we

23 should stay inside, and that they'd be back. However, when they took our

24 father out of the house, and we looked through the window, and I think

25 that there were three soldiers in front of every house and every apartment

Page 15960

1 building. They were all over the place.

2 There were some people outside only their underwear. They were

3 hitting them with rifle butts, kicking them. They were doing all sorts of

4 things to them. They were being taken to a camp that was at the secondary

5 school.

6 Q. And when you say they were doing all sorts of things to them,

7 could you just, for the record, tell the Court who do you mean by "they"

8 who were doing these things?

9 A. The Croat army. The HVO army.

10 Q. Now, madam, do you know where your father was taken, or did you

11 find out subsequently where he was taken?

12 A. They took him to the camp at the secondary school centre in

13 Vares.

14 Q. What was the name of that secondary school?

15 A. Ivan Goran Kovacic.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, if we may move into private session for

18 the next portion of the witness's testimony, please.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll move into

20 private session for a few minutes.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15961











11 Pages 15961-15962 redacted. Private session















Page 15963

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10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

12 MR. KRUGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Now, Witness, after these soldiers had left, did you then remain

14 in your house, you and your sister and your mother?

15 A. No, we fled.

16 Q. And where did you flee to?

17 A. We fled to a married couple. They were Croats, actually,

18 Catholics, and we spent two days with them.

19 Q. Was this in the town of Vares still?

20 A. Yes, in Vares.

21 Q. And after two days, what happened then?

22 A. After two days the man that we stayed with came and said that

23 everything was over and that we could go home. However, when we arrived

24 we saw that not everything was over and we started to flee again but

25 didn't know where, and then an elderly married couple, they were also

Page 15964

1 Croats, but they allowed us to stay with them, an old man and woman.

2 Q. Until when did you stay with this old man and woman?

3 A. The 1st of November.

4 Q. I see. In light of what we were talking about previously, the

5 date of the -- of the incidents you previously described to the Court, if

6 this took place on the 1st of November, do you want to reconsider your

7 answer that you gave previously, whether it was the 23rd of October or

8 23rd of November?

9 A. Well, I know it was the 1st of November when it was All Saints

10 Day, so I got confused. I apologise.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, your father -- while you were staying

12 with this second Croat couple, did your father join you?

13 A. Yes, six days later.

14 Q. If you say six days later, six days from the date of his arrest or

15 another date?

16 A. After he was arrested.

17 Q. Did he tell you anything about the conditions under which he had

18 been held?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court?

21 A. Well, he told us what they slept on, that they were cold. They

22 had no blankets. They had nothing, and that they beat them. And when a

23 Croat would enter, one of the soldiers of the HVO, at the door they had to

24 put their heads down not to see who was coming into the room. And when

25 they beat them, they all had to keep their heads well down. They

Page 15965

1 mistreated them.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, madam, on the 1st of November or All Saints Day

3 1993, what happened on that day?

4 A. A young man came to fetch us. He was a Croat, a Catholic. And he

5 took us with a car to the UNPROFOR headquarters, and that's where they

6 protected people.

7 Q. When were you able to return to your house in Vares -- or outside

8 Vares?

9 A. Two days later when the BH army entered Vares.

10 Q. And what did you find at your house? In what condition or state

11 was it?

12 A. Well, my father's house was intact, but my house was destroyed and

13 everything taken out of it. Just the big pieces of furniture were left in

14 the house. Everything else was taken away.

15 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, for a final portion of the evidence, if

16 we may just move into private session very briefly.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll move back into private

18 session briefly, Mr. Registrar.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

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Page 15966

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15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.


18 Q. Thank you, Witness.

19 MR. KRUGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution has no more questions.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kruger.

21 Now to the Defence, Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Good afternoon, Mr. President, good afternoon,

23 Your Honours. Good afternoon, madam. We have no questions for this

24 witness. We wish to thank her for coming here to give her evidence.

25 Thank you very much for coming.

Page 15967

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Murphy.

2 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour. The Stojic Defence also has

3 no questions of the witness.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. The

5 Defence of General Praljak also has no questions for this witness and we

6 thank the witness for coming.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a very short

9 explanation, because I think that something was left out.

10 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I'm going to try and clarify one point.

12 When you spoke about the events that took place before what happened to

13 you and while you were here, you said on the municipality in Vares the

14 Yugoslav and Croatian flag were hoisted and that the Yugoslav flag was

15 taken down, and that on the basis of that occurrence, you thought that

16 some unpleasant things might happen.

17 Now, I'd just like to ask you, are you quite sure that it was a

18 Yugoslav flag?

19 A. Well, yes. I suppose so, because there could have been no other

20 flag on the municipality building because it was still Yugoslavia at the

21 time.

22 Q. In October 1993? Well, I have no further questions.

23 A. I'm not quite certain I don't know.

24 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 We have no questions of this witness.

Page 15968

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. No

2 questions.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, I only have one question

5 to put to you. It's a follow-up question following the one put to you by

6 Ms. Alaburic, a question related to the Yugoslav flag. In 1993, your

7 country was independent and had its own flag. It was not the flag of the

8 former Yugoslavia anymore. So are you mixing up this when you are talking

9 about the Yugoslav flag? Are you mixing it up with the flag of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina? Do you mix these things up in your mind or is it something

11 that is not very specific?

12 A. Perhaps I have mixed it up. I'm not quite sure at any rate.

13 Perhaps in my memory. Perhaps I haven't got a good memory for flags. I

14 don't know. I'm not quite sure, actually.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much

16 for this answer.

17 No additional questions?

18 MR. KRUGER: No.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam, on my own

20 behalf and on behalf of my colleagues I'd like to thank you -- oh, wait a

21 minute. My fellow Judge has a question to put to you.

22 Further questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I have a very small question, madam. You have

24 told us how and why you moved to your parents' house. Can you tell us

25 where you were living before you went there? And I wonder if that's

Page 15969

1 something that can be named in open session.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lived in my own house.

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Was that house also located in Vares?

6 A. In Vares, but a little further away, the suburbs.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you. That's all. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No additional questions? Very

9 well. Let me take the floor again then.

10 Madam, thank you very much for coming here for the Prosecution, to

11 testify in this case. On behalf of my colleagues I wish you a very safe

12 trip home.

13 Before you leave the courtroom, I'll ask the usher to roll down

14 the blinds.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Usher will bring

17 the second witness. For the second witness we have one hour for the

18 Prosecution and one hour for the Defence. Protective measures had been

19 requested for that witness. We'll grant -- we'll proceed the same way as

20 with the previous witness, pseudonym and facial distortion, and we'll go

21 into closed session when we deal with some specific events, just as with

22 the previous witness.

23 Mr. Mundis, any concerns about this way of going about it?

24 MR. MUNDIS: No. I don't think there will be a problem. I'm just

25 awaiting Mr. Scott's appearance through the door since he's scheduled to

Page 15970

1 take the next witness, but he did -- he did send me an e-mail and say he's

2 on his way, so hopefully ...

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that Mr. Scott follows

4 these proceedings with great care. I'm sure he noticed that this witness

5 just left the courtroom, so I'm sure he'll show up very soon. But not to

6 waste any more time, we'll bring in the next witness.

7 I'm being told by the registrar that the witness is not here. In

8 order not to waste any time, we'll have the break now. It's five past

9 3.00. We will have a 20-minute break and we'll resume in 20 minutes, and

10 this will give enough time for Mr. Scott to arrive in the courtroom.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.05 p.m.

12 --- Upon resuming at 3.40 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is

14 resume. We are running late because we were waiting for the witness, who

15 has finally arrived.

16 With regard to the protective measures, is there anything new, any

17 new development, Mr. Scott?

18 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours, and

19 everyone in the courtroom.

20 I regret the delay, but because of the -- because of the ruling

21 and protective measures of course we needed to talk to the witness to see

22 if that would be -- if she was agreeable to proceed on that basis, and,

23 yes. Again, just to confirm for the record, it will be a pseudonym,

24 facial image distortion, and private session as to any sensitive

25 testimony. That's my understanding.

Page 15971

1 On that basis, we're prepared to proceed, and the witness is

2 prepared to proceed.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we'll move into closed [as

4 interpreted] session first, Mr. Registrar.

5 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.


15 Q. Witness, forgive me, I'll just once again caution you, please, not

16 to mention names because we are now in open session, and the questions I'm

17 going to ask you now probably don't call for any specific names.

18 Very briefly by way of additional background, can you tell the

19 Judges when you recall the Croatian Defence Council or HVO taking over the

20 municipal government in the municipality of Vares.

21 A. During 1992.

22 Q. And when that came about, were there any changes in the way that

23 life was conducted around -- in Vares municipality? And let me just point

24 you to a couple of things. Did anything happen or change concerning

25 telephone service at that time?

Page 15976

1 A. After that we could just use the telephone locally, just in town,

2 nothing else.

3 Q. Could you call such places, for instance, as Sarajevo or Zenica or

4 Tuzla after that time?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And did that continue to be the case up to and including the end

7 of October 1993?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you tell the Judges, too, was another aspect or

10 consequence, if you will, or something that happened after the HVO took

11 over the municipal government, can you tell it the Chamber about any

12 check-points or roadblocks that were set up in Vares municipality?

13 A. Yes, they were, at the exit and the entrance into Vares.

14 Q. And do you recall where either the Territorial Defence or the army

15 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the members of those units or those units

16 themselves were located after the HVO took over the Vares municipal

17 government?

18 A. Can you please repeat that question?

19 Q. Yes. Do you recall after the Vares HVO took over the municipal

20 government where the Territorial Defence or the ABiH units were located?

21 A. In Dabravine.

22 Q. All right. Witness, I'm going to jump forward specifically to

23 June 1993, and do you recall any time in June 1993 when a number of Croats

24 came to Vares from Kakanj?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15977

1 Q. And can you tell the Judges just briefly, we're not going to spend

2 a great deal of time on this, but what the impact, what your experience

3 was when these Croats from Kakanj came to Vares? Did it change the way

4 life went on in the town, or did it affect you and your family, again

5 without mentioning any names?

6 A. There were some provocations. They were taunting the Muslim

7 population in town. At work I had such experience, too, but I tried to

8 ignore it. I tried not to pay any attention to it.

9 Q. Let me go, then, forward to October of 1993, and again, please,

10 without mentioning any particular names, were you and your family stopped

11 at a check-point sometime in October 1993?

12 A. Yes, at the it exit, on the way out of Vares at Ponikve. We were

13 going to visit someone, and that's where we were stopped, at the

14 check-point. These were members of the HVO. They wore uniforms. They

15 asked to search the car. They asked what it was that we were carrying.

16 We were bringing some food, and they asked us to take this out. They

17 didn't let us carry this through the check-point. At that moment, a few

18 trucks arrived, Zrinjski. Then Ivica Gavran came in a car, and he didn't

19 talk to me, but we had to wait for him to take over these trucks, and he

20 went after them, and it was only then that they let us go through the

21 check-point, after them.

22 Q. All right. A couple of follow-up questions, please. When you say

23 that you were carrying some food and this was your -- the car was searched

24 and the food was taken out, can you just briefly tell the Judges: Were

25 the economic conditions and the food that was available in Vares during

Page 15978

1 this time period better than in many other places in Bosnia, as far as you

2 knew?

3 A. Yes. There was an abundance of everything, and everything was

4 cheap too. There were big differences in price between Vares and the rest

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is. Everything was really cheap in town, in

6 our town.

7 Q. Do you recall any particular nickname or way that Vares, the town

8 of Vares, was described during this time?

9 A. "Oasis of peace."

10 Q. And you also mentioned that some trucks came. You said something

11 about Zrinjski. What did you know, if anything, about what Zrinjski was

12 and what was on these trucks?

13 A. That was a Croat brigade from Tuzla. They were called Zrinjski.

14 Q. And did you observe Mr. Gavran -- and that's a name for these

15 purposes I don't think we need to worry about or I would have stopped

16 you. But did you see Mr. Gavran do anything in particular after these

17 trucks passed through the check-point?

18 A. He followed them in his car.

19 Q. Witness, moving forward, then, to the 23rd of October, 1993, or at

20 least the few days before that, can you tell the Judges, as far as you can

21 recall from your own life at that time, did you have any idea, did you see

22 any signals occurring to you or that appeared to you that war -- that the

23 war coming to Vares was imminent at that time?

24 A. The town was empty. There was no army, no police. Very few

25 citizens were moving about town. It was very unusual. We never believed

Page 15979

1 that any such thing would happen in our town, but -- well, everything was

2 sort of strange.

3 Q. And approximately how long before the 23rd of October did you

4 see -- you said the town was empty. There was no army, no police.

5 Approximately, as best you can remember, please, how much -- how long was

6 this before the 23rd that you saw these conditions?

7 A. Perhaps a week.

8 Q. Turning to the day of the 23rd of October itself.

9 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I believe we should go into private

10 session for a couple of questions, please.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

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Page 15980











11 Page 15980 redacted. Private session















Page 15981

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.


6 Q. Witness, now with this background in mind, again without

7 mentioning names - you can refer to your mother, you can refer to your

8 father, but not by name - can you tell the Judges, please, what happened

9 on the morning of the 23rd of October.

10 A. Our mother woke us up because she was getting ready to go to work

11 at 6.30 or 7.00, and she was awakened by some kind of noise. She woke me

12 up and she woke my father up. My father went downstairs. At that moment,

13 I walked up to the window and I saw a soldier, armed, in camouflage

14 uniform. I saw him standing in front of our house, and he held a few of

15 our neighbour's at gunpoint.

16 Another soldier was walking out of the house that was near our

17 house with the man who lived there in front of him. This soldier was also

18 in uniform. And the third soldier was walking into our house too. He

19 took the steps. And a few minutes later he took out my father, and they

20 went in the direction of town, all together, from our house.

21 We were lost, afraid. We didn't know what was going on. And we

22 tried to use the phone, because my mother's brother lived in the

23 neighbourhood together with other Muslim neighbours, and I tried to call

24 him. However, the lines were dead that morning. So in this fear we

25 didn't even know what was going on.

Page 15982

1 We tried to pack a few things. We were lost. At that moment we

2 heard shells and gunshots. Then we went down to a neighbour, a lady, who

3 lived below us, and she had a room that was down in a basement, and we

4 thought that we would be safe there. We stayed there even after the

5 alert. And a few hours later, yet again soldiers came. They were armed

6 to -- they came to my neighbour's house. They asked me and my mother to

7 go to our house, and --

8 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment. Excuse me. Before we go too

9 much further along, let me ask you a couple of clarifications, please.

10 The soldiers that you say that came to your house and the house of

11 your neighbour on the morning of the 23rd of October, can you tell the

12 Judges of what army or what will military organisation these soldiers

13 were, in terms of what you saw, badges, what you learned at the time.

14 A. You mean what I learned later on or at that moment, what I saw at

15 that moment?

16 Q. That particular -- on the morning of the 23rd were you able to

17 identify from which armed force these soldiers had come or to which force

18 they belonged?

19 A. We couldn't recognise them. We couldn't identify them. They

20 weren't our local HVO army. They were from some other municipality. I

21 didn't know any one of them. We didn't know any one of them. They all

22 wore uniforms, camouflage uniforms. They had rifles, knives.

23 Q. All right. And your father, and again without mentioning any

24 names, your father and the neighbours that you saw being taken away that

25 morning, can you tell the Court whether -- were men of all nationalities,

Page 15983

1 if I can use that term, or ethnic groups being taken away or only the

2 members of one ethnic group?

3 A. They were only members of one ethnic group. They were all

4 Muslims.

5 Q. And finally before going forward, you mention that you tried to

6 use the phone. You told us a few moments ago that when the HVO took over

7 Vares municipality in the summer of 1992 that you could not call outside

8 of the town of Vares, and just to be clear, is what you're telling us now

9 is that on the 23rd of October you could not use the phones in Vares town,

10 inside Vares town, either?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Witness, you had taken us up to the point that you

13 said your father and some of the other men in the area had been taken

14 away, and then you said the soldiers came back sometime later that

15 morning. Can you tell us, if you can, approximately what time the

16 soldiers returned or how much time had passed from the time they took your

17 father away until the time when they came back to your house or to your

18 neighbour's house?

19 A. It was around 10.00. That means that they returned in about three

20 hours.

21 Q. And when they returned, and again you started this, but what did

22 they do? Tell us what happened when they returned around 10.00.

23 A. They asked us to go up to our house, my mother and I. When we

24 entered the house, one soldier in camouflage uniform, he had dark hair, a

25 dark beard, was sitting on the sofa. I had to sit there a bit further

Page 15984

1 away from him. This tall, dark soldier, also in uniform, armed, was

2 standing in the middle of the room. My mother was in front of him. He

3 looked very strange. He had this glassy look as he looked at me, but it

4 seemed as if he was looking through me, as if he couldn't see me. He

5 behaved in a very strange way.

6 Another soldier was there too. He was throwing our clothes out.

7 He was searching our cupboards, our wardrobes. They were looking for more

8 money and jewellery.

9 In the morning they had taken away all our jewellery and money.

10 From my mother's bag, handbag, they took the money that belonged to the

11 store where she worked. There was about 5 or 6.000 Deutschmark there.

12 They were asking for more, and I said that I didn't have any more money,

13 that I only had about 50 or 60 marks in my wallet and that it stayed

14 behind in my private business premises. And I gave them the key, and I

15 asked if they knew where it was, and they said they did. Then the tall,

16 dark soldier took my mother upstairs. The other two were asking questions

17 as in who the cars in front of the house belonged to, and they asked to

18 look at the garage too.

19 We went downstairs. I unlocked the garage. Inside was our car.

20 They asked whether it was all right, and I said that it was being

21 repaired. They tried to start the car, but they couldn't. They asked

22 about the other cars, and I said that they belonged to our neighbours.

23 Then they asked about the building next to our house, yet another shop. I

24 said that this is where a friend worked with our father, and they had some

25 machines there. They wanted to search those premises too.

Page 15985

1 My mother went downstairs followed by this tall, dark soldier.

2 They went inside. They searched the place, then they walked out, and they

3 said something like, "What are you doing to your neighbours?" And we

4 said, "We're not doing anything. We're not doing anything to anybody. We

5 live here. This is our house. We didn't want to go anywhere from our

6 house." And then they asked, "Are you loyal?" I mean, in this fear and

7 feeling so lost, we said yes. We didn't even know what we were saying yes

8 to, but we just wanted to be in agreement with them. And then at the went

9 on as in, "What are your people doing to our people at the front line?"

10 And we were just silent because we had no idea. And then they left the

11 house. We locked the garage, and we went back to our neighbour's, our

12 lady neighbour's.

13 During the night --

14 Q. Thank you for that. You're doing fine. Just let me a couple of

15 questions before you continue on.

16 Just on this question about -- when they asked you are you loyal,

17 was anything said to you or explained to you at the time what they meant

18 by that or loyal to what or to who? Was anything else said?

19 A. Later on we assumed that what they meant was when they asked us

20 whether we were loyal to them that meant to the HVO army. I mean, I don't

21 know. We lived there all of us together. We had no problems until then.

22 But in this fear -- I don't know. I mean, we said yes, that we were

23 loyal. We would have done it at any rate.

24 Q. All right. Let me then go back to where you were. You said that

25 you then left the house. You locked -- your mother locked the garage.

Page 15986

1 Did you return to your neighbour's house at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And again, please, without mentioning any names, how

4 many people were at the neighbour's house at this time -- by this time?

5 Approximately.

6 A. There were about 14 of us, women and children.

7 Q. And were all of you Muslim?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the soldiers come back later that day, that is on the 23rd of

10 October?

11 A. No, they didn't.

12 Q. Moving then to the 24th of October, can you tell us whether the

13 HVO soldiers came back to your house or the neighbour's house on that day,

14 the 24th?

15 A. In the late morning hours, the lady who was our neighbour was

16 airing her sheets in front of the house and she noticed my father and a

17 soldier in front of her house. She walked in and told us about this. We

18 were watching through the window. This man, this soldier in uniform was

19 armed and he held my father at gunpoint. At that moment, another soldier

20 walked out of the empty house that was next door to this house. He went

21 out, and at that moment, I don't know which one of the two, extinguished a

22 cigarette in my father's hand, and then they took him in the direction of

23 our house.

24 Since the keys to the garage and our house were with us, after a

25 while my father came with this soldier to get the keys. He came to our

Page 15987

1 neighbour's house, and he was soaked in blood, his face was, and he was

2 sort of nodding, meaning that he was all right. And then they returned to

3 our house. Then an hour and -- an hour and a half later -- well, actually

4 before that we heard the garage being opened, and we heard them trying to

5 start the car, and then in about an hour, an hour and a half, they left,

6 and then they returned my father to prison.

7 At that moment, the soldiers did not return to us, to the house

8 where we were.

9 Q. Let me ask you just one question about that. When you saw your

10 father who had been brought back to the house for the purpose of working

11 on the -- getting the car started, did you know at that time where your

12 father was being held?

13 A. Yes. He was in prison in the school, because this lady who was

14 our neighbour who worked for the Red Cross went on the 23rd to see her

15 husband as well, with another woman, and she saw my father down there at

16 the school, in prison, so we knew where he was.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to now ask to go into private

18 session for some time, please.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15988











11 Pages 15988-15992 redacted. Private session















Page 15993

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 15994

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.


3 Q. Witness, we're moving toward the final part of your testimony it,

4 and we are back in open session again, we please be careful not to say

5 anything that may identify you or your family.

6 Can you tell the Judges, around this time -- in fact, you have

7 mentioned previously today some events in Stupni Do. When do you recall

8 first learning about what had happened in Stupni Do on the 23rd of

9 October?

10 A. The neighbour who on the 23rd, on Saturday, was in the Red Cross

11 and went to visit her husband in prison and saw my father there, learnt

12 about that from the people in the Red Cross, and later on I learnt about

13 that from my aunt, and -- later on when we came to Dabravine.

14 Q. Did you learn anything more around this time as to -- you said a

15 few moments ago -- you said earlier this afternoon that the HVO soldiers

16 you saw, you did not recognise them as local Vares soldiers, and they were

17 from somewhere else. Did you learn at any time during these days - and by

18 the 24th, 25th - where these soldiers had come from?

19 A. They came from Kiseljak, and they were the Maturice.

20 Q. Now, you have taken us to the point, I believe, on Monday, the

21 25th of October, where you were taken then to a relative's house, did you

22 then at some point come in contact with UNPROFOR about being evacuated to

23 another location?

24 A. Yes. They evacuated us to Ponikve, where is where their base was,

25 and we were there until -- well, a few days, and then UNPROFOR evacuated

Page 15995

1 us to Dabravine.

2 Q. And approximately how long did you stay there?

3 A. We stayed in Dabravine until the 5th of November, and then we went

4 back home to Vares.

5 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about your

6 father during this time, so again I'm just going to caution you. I

7 don't -- I think you can talk about this without being specific as to his

8 identity, but did you learn after coming back into contact with your

9 father what had happened to him during this time, the time that you were

10 staying at the house, or your neighbour's house, and then taken to the

11 UNPROFOR base? Did you find out what had been happening to your father

12 during this same time?

13 A. All we knew was that he was in prison. When we went with UNPROFOR

14 to Ponikve and then Dabravine after that, until the 5th we knew nothing,

15 the 5th of November, that is, whether he was alive, what was happening,

16 until he sent a man to fetch us and take us home, and then we learnt that

17 he was alive and had left prison.

18 Q. When you were reunited then with your father, and thank you for

19 clarifying that, did your father then tell you what had happened to him in

20 the previous several days?

21 A. They were mistreated. They were beaten. They were

22 psychologically abused too. And the soldiers who locked them up, stood

23 guard over them, they didn't let them go to the toilet. They had to kneel

24 down with their heads down and their hands behind their backs. And as

25 they walked round in a circle they kicked them. Some people kicked more.

Page 15996

1 Others were kicked less. Then if anybody had long hair they would tie

2 their hair up, and they would make people eat their own hair. And when

3 the guards changed and when they were replaced by local people, people

4 from Vares who were in the HVO, then they had access to a doctor, and they

5 behaved much better to them. They were more lenient. They gave them

6 cigarettes to smoke and allowed them to go out to the WC.

7 Q. Let me -- sorry, let me stop you there again for a couple of

8 questions before you continue on.

9 You said a moment ago that those were longer hair, their hair

10 would be put up, something to the effect it would be put up and they would

11 be forced to eat their own hair. I'm not sure when you said their hair

12 was put up in some -- was their hair -- were the hair and beards of

13 various prisoners, according to your father, cut or shaved?

14 A. His beard was shaved and he had short hair, so he didn't have to

15 do that, but many of the others who had longer hair, that's what

16 happened. They cut their hair off and made them eat their own hair.

17 Q. You just mentioned also that in the first few days of the

18 captivity of your father and these others, the treatment was worse, and

19 then you said the local HVO soldiers came and treatment became better; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Did you ever learn, based on anything your father told you or did

23 you learn where the HVO soldiers had come from, the soldiers who had

24 guarded your father and the others for the first several days before the

25 local HVO soldiers came?

Page 15997

1 A. That they were from Kiseljak and that they were the Maturice.

2 Q. Did your father -- was your father able to escape from the school

3 sometime on about the 2nd of November?

4 A. Yes, he did escape on the 2nd.

5 Q. And did he tell you what happened after that, before you were

6 reunited with him, what had happened between the time that he escaped and

7 the time he was reunited with his family?

8 A. He escaped and then he went into hiding in some hedges and stables

9 or barns. He didn't dare show his face. And then during the night of the

10 3rd of November he heard over the megaphone appeals made to the Croatian

11 population of Vares to leave town, and the person calling out through this

12 loudspeaker was in a car that circulated around Vares. He didn't know

13 what was going on. And this last the throughout the night.

14 The next day, that would be the 4th, a neighbour came by. He saw

15 him and went to ask him -- he said hello, he greeted him, and then he told

16 him that the town was completely empty, that the soldiers had left, the

17 army had left, and that the army was supposed to come in, and on the 3rd

18 the town was empty. There was no HVO. Most of the Croatian population

19 had left.

20 Q. Did your father tell you around this time that any of the Croat

21 members of Vares, the Croat citizens of Vares, had been forced to leave

22 Vares against their will?

23 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'd appreciate if Mr. Scott would not

24 lead on a very important matter like that.

25 MR. SCOTT: Well, without asking the witness about everything she

Page 15998

1 talked about with her father at that time:

2 Q. Can you tell us if your father said anything more -- you said a

3 moment ago that Vares was empty on the 3rd of November. Did you father

4 tell you anything else about the circumstances in which the Croat

5 population left the town?

6 A. Most of the Croatian population had left with the army. Those who

7 didn't want to go, who wanted to stay in town were forced by the HVO to

8 leave town with rifles, and some of them went to the UNPROFOR base at

9 Ponikve, those who didn't want to go, and that's where they stayed until

10 the BH army entered, and then they returned to their houses.

11 Q. Before we finish, can I just ask you to look at -- we're going to

12 look at three exhibits, please, and it should be -- there's a bundle of

13 exhibits laying there before you. If I can just ask you to look at --

14 first of all, at P 06092.

15 A. 6092 did you say?

16 Q. No, on this one, I don't believe.

17 MR. SCOTT: This particular exhibit, Your Honour, and the questions

18 do not need to be in private session, I don't believe.

19 Q. But, Witness, if you have that. If you can find that, P 06092,

20 and really it's very -- my question's very limited.

21 Can you please -- and there is a Bosnian language translation

22 of the document which I -- hopefully you have there. I think you have

23 it there in front of you. If you can look at the first page and to

24 the section marked B, toward -- you'll find this -- these words in

25 that passage. In the interest of time I'll just read this you. It

Page 15999

1 says: "However, he confirmed that only male Muslim citizens of Vares were

2 incarcerated in the elementary school and some were beaten when taken to

3 this place."

4 Do you see that? If you look in the -- I think you should have a

5 Bosnian language version there. And if you look -- yes, she has it. I

6 can see you have it. And if you see -- if you go down into the section

7 marked "B. Military situation," and then the -- again, in the Bosnian

8 version, I think if you go about -- perhaps 12 lines down in the text, do

9 you see the sentence that I'm referring to: "However, he confirmed that

10 only male Muslim citizens of Vares ..." You're shaking your head yes, but

11 could you give us a verbal response for the record, please?

12 A. I see that, yes.

13 Q. Now, that information that I just directed your attention to and

14 that I wrote out a moment -- excuse me, read out a moment ago, is that

15 information consistent with what your father had indicated happened to him

16 when he was held -- being held?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could I ask you, please, to go to Exhibit --

19 MR. SCOTT: And if we can go into private session, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16000











11 Pages 16000-16002 redacted. Private session















Page 16003

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

15 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. I have one or two questions. You remember giving a statement to

17 the Prosecutor's office at the end of August 2003? Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And after you'd made that statement, it was read over to you in

20 your own language and you were given the opportunity to make any

21 corrections or additions to it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you made that statement in 2003, were you satisfied that

24 that was an accurate statement?

25 A. Some time had already gone by, a certain period of time.

Page 16004

1 Possibly -- possibly I refer to some things in a different way. I tried

2 to forget many things.

3 Q. Yes, of course, and I'm not going to ask you about any -- any

4 personal matters today, anything that would be difficult for you.

5 Can we agree, though, that in August of 2003 your memory probably

6 would be a little clearer about the events than it is today?

7 A. It was it the clearest immediately. Well, then.

8 Q. Yes. By "immediately" you mean right after the events this

9 happened.

10 A. It was the freshest then. As time went by, the years went by, and

11 also the confusion and me wanting to forget things, I did forget some

12 things, or I wasn't sure.

13 Q. In paragraph 25 of your statement, that's in the English version,

14 you told the Prosecutor that on the 5th of November, Vares was in the

15 hands of the BH army. Do you rather that?

16 A. Yes. We returned on the 5th when the armija was in town.

17 Q. And so any information that you might have had about what happened

18 on the 3rd and 4th of November, that would be information that you heard

19 from your father; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you told the Prosecutor that - this is in paragraph 26 - that

22 your father said he heard somebody speaking through a megaphone that all

23 the Croats should leave Vares; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you said, and again I'll quote briefly: "He didn't know what

Page 16005

1 was going on. On Wednesday night, 3 November 1993, it was totally quiet

2 in Vares. On Thursday morning at 7.00, the town was completely empty it.

3 Then my father spoke with a neighbour, and he told him that BH army was

4 coming to Vares. The HVO was withdrawing to Kiseljak."

5 You remember saying that?

6 A. Yes. They had already left. There was no army in town, and then

7 the armija came.

8 Q. Now, today when you gave evidence, and I'm referring now to page

9 50 of the transcript, lines 14 to 19, you added a further detail about the

10 Croatian population. You said: "Most of the Croatian population had left

11 with the army. Those who didn't want to go, who wanted to stay in town,

12 were forced by the HVO to leave town with rifles."

13 Now, was that another detail that your father told you?

14 A. No. I learned that later, after returning to Vares, from people

15 who did not want to leave Vares, who were ethnic Croats, Catholics, and

16 who went to Ponikve, to the UNPROFOR base.

17 Q. But it is true, is it not, that as you told the Prosecutor that by

18 the 5th of November the BH army was in control of Vares?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So it would be consistent with the information that you were given

21 that the Croatian population withdrew from Vares because of the approach

22 of the BH army. Isn't that true?

23 A. I don't know that -- whether that's the reason or whether they

24 were forced by their soldiers to leave town.

25 Q. No. Of course I understand you weren't there yourself. My

Page 16006

1 question is would -- based on the facts you know, that would be a

2 consistent explanation, wouldn't it?

3 A. They had to leave because they were forced to leave. That is to

4 say their army, the HVO, forced them to leave town, evacuated them. This

5 small part of the population could not be forced to leave Vares. They

6 stayed in their homes or, rather, they went to the UNPROFOR base.

7 Q. Well, let me just ask you one last thing then. Can we agree that

8 the -- the detail about people being forced to leave Vares with rifles was

9 something that you did not mention to the Prosecutor when you gave your

10 statement in 2003? That was another detail that you've added today; is

11 that right?

12 A. If I didn't mention that and if it wasn't written down, then the

13 answer is no. Well, I forget some things. Whenever I try to remember I

14 remember some things, and the other time I'd remember other things, so

15 there would be these variations among my different statements.

16 Q. That's fine. I -- but just so that we can agree that this is

17 something that you do remember today? Whether or not you remembered it in

18 2003, this is something that you do remember today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I have nothing further. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Next Defence counsel.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Praljak would have

25 a few questions for this witness.

Page 16007

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

2 Your Honours.

3 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Madam Witness. I am accused

5 before this court, and quite simply I am speaking in my own name, and it

6 is own proper for me to face the bad things that happened to you too. I'm

7 not going to ask you about that. Heaven forbid. I'm going to ask you

8 about some of the things that the Prosecutor wanted to prove through you.

9 The first matter are telephones in Vares.

10 The Prosecutor asked you whether after the HVO takeover in Vares

11 whether you could phone Zenica, Tuzla, and Sarajevo and your answer was

12 no; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know whether Sarajevo could phone Tuzla?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Please don't say "but." Just say I know or I don't know.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Could you make telephone calls from Zenica to Tuzla?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know anything about coaxial cables for the transmission of

21 such signals and repeaters and things like that? Do you know anything

22 about that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You don't know under whose control these coaxial cables were

25 between towns, and repeaters, and communication centres of that nature?

Page 16008

1 Do you know anything about that?

2 A. I don't know anything.

3 Q. Do you know what the last day was when one could make telephone

4 calls from -- from Sarajevo to anywhere?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. My second question has to do with the Prosecutor's question

7 stating when the people from Kakanj arrived. Tell me, did they come to

8 Vares as a tourist excursion, or were they expelled from Kakanj, to the

9 best of your knowledge?

10 A. To the best of my knowledge -- well, I don't know. It's not that

11 they were expelled. It was more a case of them having fled. I don't know

12 exactly.

13 Q. All right. You don't know. You stated that in Vares everything

14 was cheap and there was an abundance of everything and that there was an

15 oasis of peace under HVO authority. I'm putting two questions to you.

16 Regardless of the arrival of 15.000 inhabitants of Kakanj who had fled

17 from something to Vares, and that was in June 1993, nevertheless, the

18 situation was good, wasn't it, all the way up to this 23rd of October?

19 Can we agree on that?

20 A. Well, we can.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Also, you said that in Vares it was much

22 better than in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Tell me, did you go

23 from Vares to Tuzla, Zenica, Busovaca, Vitez? Did you actually know what

24 it was like in other areas so that you could make this kind of comparison,

25 saying that it was, say, better in Vares than it was in Kiseljak?

Page 16009

1 A. According to what -- well, while we had some kind of TV programme

2 we could see that in some places there was nothing to eat, whereas in

3 Vares there were all sorts of things, and nothing was expensive at that.

4 Many people in Bosnia-Herzegovina had nothing to eat and had no money to

5 buy anything with, and we had everything.

6 Q. Thank you for your answer. Please, these convoys that brought

7 food into Vares, where were they coming from?

8 A. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. Were they coming perhaps from Belgrade, from Sarajevo? Were they

10 airlifts, or do you think that they only could have come from Croatia

11 through Herzegovina and then further north?

12 A. I don't know exactly.

13 Q. Very well. Just one more thing. In paragraph 5 of your

14 statement - could I please have a look - you said that a week before the

15 23rd, in Vares there was a kind of ominous peace. So there was this

16 tension, but it was quiet.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I would like to read paragraph five where you say: "Seven days

19 before the attack on Stupni Do the town of Vares was completely empty.

20 There was something going on. Nobody was in the cafes or in the streets,

21 even no soldiers. They used to be there but now they had gone. The front

22 linings from Kakanj to Vares were broken. At that time there was some

23 shooting by our BiH army, and the front lines to Kopljari were also

24 broken."

25 Yes. Is this correct what you had stated?

Page 16010

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So according to your statement, is it not the case that seven days

3 before the 23rd, the BiH started attacking this oasis of peace with an

4 abundance of food and everything else, inexpensive? They were attacking

5 the HVO. Is that the way it was?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Just two more things. First of all, your mother, your lady mother

8 had a shop?

9 A. No. She worked in a shop for someone else.

10 Q. All right. In Vares throughout this time, did you see any other

11 money but Deutschmarks?

12 A. Yes, the Croatian kuna.

13 Q. Oh, the Croatian kuna was still there. So it could be exchanged

14 for German marks; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. There wasn't any other money that came, say, from Sarajevo, from

17 the authorities that were in Sarajevo? There was no money that was

18 printed by the national bank in Sarajevo?

19 A. No, nothing.

20 Q. Thank you. There weren't any Yugoslav dinars either; right?

21 A. No. I didn't come across any.

22 Q. You didn't come across any. As for the expulsion of the HVO,

23 first question: Did you personally see any soldiers of the HVO

24 threatening Croats to leave town, you personally?

25 A. I didn't because I was not there.

Page 16011

1 Q. And what about your father? Did he say to you that he had seen a

2 single soldier of the HVO forcing Croats to leave Vares by pointing rifles

3 at them?

4 A. No. He just heard about this.

5 Q. All right. So everything you know about that is what you learned

6 after the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina came and after the Croats left; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you very much, and I'm sorry to have bothered you with these

10 questions.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we just have a

13 small correction at 63, 10. The witness said -- when she was speaking

14 about her father, she said that he also hadn't seen such cases, and the

15 transcript says he just heard about this. I think that it's a

16 misunderstanding. I mean, I am sure it's a misunderstanding, so it should

17 be corrected.

18 Do you want to handle this or should I do it?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you identify a problem,

20 please notify us immediately, because sometimes problems of translation

21 can have grave repercussions if the translation is not proper. So please

22 give the correction.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Madam Witness, in view the fact that we have to

25 check the transcript, and sometimes there are some mistakes, at one point

Page 16012

1 Mr. Praljak asked you whether your father had seen that he had seen with

2 his very own eyes any HVO soldiers forcing Croats with rifles to leave

3 town. What was you ever answer?

4 A. He hadn't seen any such thing. I heard about that later from a

5 lady friend of us who didn't want to leave Vares.

6 Q. Let us be quite sure of this. Did your father tell you that he

7 had heard about such things being seen?

8 A. Yes, later we did hear about many such cases.

9 Q. Did you didn't hear about that from your father, if I understood

10 your previous answer.

11 A. Well, not then, later. We heard about it later. I don't know, a

12 month later, 15 days later, from this lady friend of ours who stayed in

13 Vares, who didn't want to leave. That is what she said to us, that she

14 didn't want to leave her house, and then she stayed back in Vares.

15 Q. All right. And nothing happened to her?

16 A. No, nothing.

17 Q. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] -- Witness, good afternoon. I'm going to have a

22 few questions to clarify some details. A moment ago you told

23 General Praljak in response to a question there him about the currency

24 used in Vares, said that in that year, 1993, apart from the German mark

25 there was also the Croatian kuna that was used. Did I understand you

Page 16013

1 correctly?

2 A. The Croatian dinar. The Croatian currency. I don't know whether

3 it was the kuna, but Croatian currency. I don't know exactly what it was

4 called. Perhaps I said kuna because they have the kuna now.

5 Q. Yes, you did say kuna. All I wanted to ask you was, were you

6 quite sure, because the Croatian kuna as a currency was introduced on the

7 30th of May, 1994, in actual fact, so that's why I'm asking you whether

8 you're sure it was the kuna.

9 A. It was Croatian money, Croatian currency that was used in Croatia.

10 Q. All right. Fine. Now, Witness, since -- apart from the statement

11 that you gave to the investigators of the OTP of the Tribunal, we also

12 have your three statements given to institutions in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13 and in none of those statements which were given in 1993 and in 1996 do

14 you mention allegedly forcing -- that the HVO forced the Croats to leave

15 Vares. So I have to ask you the following question: When did you hear

16 for the first time what you told us here today for the first time?

17 A. Well, we heard that soon after our return from Dabravine, after

18 the 5th. I don't know exactly when.

19 Q. All right. Fine. Now, the first statement that you gave was

20 given on the 22nd of November, 1993, and what you're saying today you make

21 no mention of at all, not by a single word. So can you tell us whether

22 anybody in any way whatsoever briefed you about what you were to say about

23 that as a witness before this Tribunal?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. Fine. Today our colleague from the Prosecution asked

Page 16014

1 you twice using alternative concepts of Territorial Defence and the BH

2 army, and since in your statement to the OTP of the Tribunal you said

3 quite clearly in paragraph 3 of your statement that the Territorial

4 Defence became the BH army. I would like us to clarify this point and

5 hear whether this happened in mid-1992, and that after mid-1992, all that

6 existed was the BH army, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Are you aware of

7 that fact? Can you confirm that?

8 A. Well, I don't know exactly when all this was transformed.

9 Q. Yes. But you know that there was this transformation.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that therefore it is incorrect to say either the Territorial

12 Defence or the BH army, because the Territorial Defence had in fact grown

13 to become the BH army. It had turned into the BH army. Isn't that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You told us today that on the 23rd of October, 1993, you were

16 in -- taking shelter and refuge in a neighbour's house, a woman's house.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said that you had taken refuge because there was an alarm; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in your statement to the OTP you use the term "general

22 alarm." Do you remember using that term?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Fine. Now, can you tell us who it was it who sounded

25 the alarm in Vares? Was it the HVO authority that sounded the alarm?

Page 16015

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. At that time, and we're talking about the 23rd of October, did the

3 HVO have control over Vares?

4 A. Yes, on the 23rd it did.

5 Q. Well, do you know why the alarm was sounded?

6 A. We heard a few shells falling. There were explosions. We assumed

7 that they were shells, and we saw some sort of -- heard some sort of

8 shooting round town.

9 Q. Now, the shells that you mention, they fell on Vares; right? And

10 that's why the alarm was sounded, is that it?

11 A. I don't know where they actually fell.

12 Q. Did you hear the shells themselves?

13 A. We did hear them, but we don't know where they fell, whether they

14 fell on Vares or around Vares, in some of the areas surrounding Vares.

15 Q. At that point in time did you have any knowledge whatsoever as to

16 who had targeted these shells to Vares or the surrounding areas, that this

17 was so close that you could hear it? So who shot those shells?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Tell us, please, whether upon your return to Vares in November

20 1993 whether you talked to anybody about those shells and whether you

21 heard who could have done the shooting at Vares on that day.

22 A. No, I didn't talk to anybody, and I don't know. I didn't talk to

23 anybody, and I don't know who shot.

24 Q. Tell it us, please, at that time, did you have any knowledge

25 whatsoever about any combat activities of the BH army in the vicinity of

Page 16016

1 Vares?

2 A. On the 23rd.

3 Q. Round about that time, yes. During those days.

4 A. Only on the basis of what I was able to hear, that there were

5 some -- that there was some fighting around Kopljari.

6 Q. So what general Praljak read out to you a moment ago; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell us, please, from that information that you had, was it quite

10 clear that the combat activities on the part of the BH army was directed

11 towards Vares?

12 A. I don't know what the direction was, where they were directed or

13 anything like that. All I know is that there was some fighting going on.

14 Now, whether they went here or the HVO went there, I don't know that.

15 Q. All right. Fine. But you know that on the 3rd of November, the

16 units the BH army entered Vares. That's right, isn't it?

17 A. Not the 3rd, the 5th. The 4th or 5th.

18 Q. Well, I can remind you what you said in your statement, but it's

19 not essential whether it's the 3rd, 4th, or 5th at this point. You said

20 that on the 3rd they withdrew and that everything was quiet on the 4th and

21 that you returned on the 5th, but it's not an important point.

22 Tell us, please, on that day the 23rd of October, 1993, to the

23 best of your knowledge in Vares were there any members of the BH army who

24 were dressed in civilian clothing?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 16017

1 Q. Do you know that there were some Vares inhabitants who were in the

2 BH army, members of the BH army?

3 A. Yes, but they weren't in Vares. They weren't located in Vares.

4 Q. And where were they located?

5 A. They were in Dabravine.

6 Q. Tell us, please, did they visit their families in Vares from time

7 to time?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. All right. Fine. Now, do you have any knowledge to the effect

10 that in Vares at that time there were collaborators of the BH army,

11 civilians who collaborated with the BH army? So not soldiers but

12 civilians who collaborated?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Tell me, please, do you have any knowledge about the fact that on

15 the territory of Vares, except the Maturice unit that you mentioned, that

16 some other units of the HVO arrived which were not from Vares?

17 A. I don't know that.

18 Q. When you describe HVO soldiers as people who were doing something,

19 and you don't recognise any -- you said you didn't recognise any local

20 Vares soldiers amongst them, you as a rule say that they were Maturice

21 units; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If you knew that apart from the Maturice unit in the Vares area,

24 other units, other HVO units had arrived, could you then say with any

25 certainty that the soldiers who were not from Vares belonged to the

Page 16018

1 Maturice unit and not perhaps some other HVO unit?

2 A. I knew -- I was aware that there were the Maturice. Now, I didn't

3 know about any others.

4 Q. And how did you know that they were the Maturice?

5 A. Well, everybody mentioned them, spoke about them. Everybody said

6 they were the Maturice from Kiseljak.

7 Q. Everybody said that? You mean when you returned to Kiseljak [sic]

8 in November, 1993? In November 1993, is that it?

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I would like to put something

10 right. I seem to have misspoken and said Kiseljak instead of Vares.

11 Q. So when you return to Vares in 1993. That's what I meant to say.

12 Is that right, Witness?

13 A. Well, I can't say exactly I'm not quite sure.

14 Q. All right. Fine. But it would be correct to conclude, would it

15 not, that everything that was not the Vares Brigade, you say, were the

16 Maturice unit members; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I'd like to remind you now of a part of your statement from the

19 1993 statement, the 22nd of November, 1993, in fact, and it is a document

20 provided to us by the Prosecution. It has not been tendered into

21 evidence, and I hope that you will find it in your set of documents and

22 that the Judges will find the document as well.

23 Anyway, you begin your statement with the 22nd of October, 1993,

24 madam, (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16019

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, did you prepare

2 that document, because I do not have that document, as far as I'm

3 concerned.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, we -- we need to make sure that this

5 is erased from the transcript or whatever we end up doing.

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you, Mr. Karnavas. We need a

7 redaction, please, on line -- page 71, line 8. And please -- please, I

8 advise counsel, please be careful.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please prepare an

10 order.

11 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise, and I

12 propose that we move into private session now.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16020











11 Page 16020 redacted. Private session















Page 16021

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

13 Mr. Kovacic wanted to take the floor to raise an issue related to

14 translation. I'd like to say that the audio recording is the actual

15 record of this trial, so you can always refer to the audio recording if

16 you find a discrepancy between the audio recording and the transcript,

17 either in French or in English, and then you can make corrections if need

18 be.

19 Mr. Kovacic.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

21 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was sure I pushed it.

22 [Interpretation] As you know, Your Honour, for the week of the 2nd

23 of April, starting with the 2nd of April and all the days during the week,

24 we have a witness, he's an ambassador. I won't state his name out of an

25 abundance of caution, there might be some protective measures in place.

Page 16022

1 As far as I know, there aren't, but he is a respected ambassador from the

2 4th -- from the 2nd right through the week, and he's an important

3 witness. And the Prosecutor with that witness plans to use two

4 documents. One document is and handwritten diary in English, a personal

5 diary, personal document composed of nine parts, nine P numbers, and has a

6 total of almost 800 pages, 798 pages, and the Prosecution - and we

7 discussed this - plans to provide translations into the B/C/S. We have

8 some 26 pages already, and my colleagues from the Prosecution say that

9 another 100 pages are due to arrive shortly.

10 Now, with respect to that diary, which is certainly a relevant and

11 important document because it's an extensive one and very important, my

12 proposal is that the Prosecution issues an order that the whole document

13 is disclosed in the B/C/S translation, because there are portions inside

14 which the Defence can use to its advantage, and if the Prosecution takes

15 one section we might need another section.

16 I think that it is the right of the accused to have that. I don't

17 see that there is -- that is a right that has been established. There are

18 no two ways about it. It is an important exhibit, and we did -- never

19 wanted to split hairs. We didn't insist upon minor matters, but this is

20 too important to be ignored.

21 And along with that, and this is my second proposal, the

22 Prosecution proposes to use the presidential records, the president of the

23 Republic of Croatia, five minutes from -- with five P numbers, which in

24 total in the Croatian language, in the original, have 265 pages. They are

25 265 pages long. But the Prosecution has provided excerpts from those

Page 16023

1 records and minutes. Some have been translated, a total of 87 pages, and

2 with respect to this document it is my proposal that the Prosecution

3 should provide the entire translation in English for the benefit of the

4 Trial Chamber and for those who do not speak Croatian, the Defence

5 counsel, because we need the integral text. You know that meetings deal

6 with different topics. You have been able to see some of them. And very

7 often the discussion or debate begins on some pages and then they go back

8 to that same discussion later on. So it's impossible to extract just a

9 few sentences or a few pages. So we would like to appeal that we be

10 provided with the entire translation, but I would particularly like to

11 insist upon the first translation with regard to the diary. The accused

12 have the right to see the exhibits in a language they understand, and

13 that the exhibits that the indictment relies on and the Prosecution relies

14 on.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you Mr. President. We have indeed discussed

16 this with our colleague, Mr. Kovacic, during a couple of the breaks

17 yesterday and today. Perhaps this might be an issue that we could come

18 back to on Thursday in some greater detail, but let me just for now

19 indicate what we have been provided with by Ambassador Okun are hundreds,

20 and I'm talking about more than 700 pages of his handwritten diaries

21 covering a period from October 1991 until May of 1993. We have gone

22 through these diaries and provided translations of the excerpts of those

23 diaries which we believe are relevant and which we will attempt to tender

24 into evidence when this witness comes and testifies.

25 The short answer is that to provide -- and I should also indicate

Page 16024

1 that some of those translations are still in process, and we will disclose

2 those as soon as they are available.

3 At this point in time, it is simply not possible to provide

4 translations of hundreds of pages of diary material when neither party has

5 identified that as exhibits to be exhibited before the Trial Chamber. We

6 don't have the resources to do that, and that would most definitely cause

7 a delay and/or cause Ambassador Okun to come back for cross-examination.

8 Our position is very clear, that clearly with respect to materials

9 that we want to use as exhibits, we will provide translations of those,

10 either documents or excerpts of documents in case of lengthy documents.

11 I should also indicate that it's my understanding that these

12 diaries were used in the Krajisnik and Milosevic cases without full

13 translations being -- being required. These diaries of Ambassador Okun

14 have featured in a number of cases and, to date, no Trial Chamber has

15 ever required the Prosecution to create full transcripts of these

16 diaries.

17 I would also point out that -- that the jurisprudence of this

18 institution is very clear with respect to statements. Clearly these

19 diaries are not statements falling within the scope of the rules that

20 would require the Prosecution to provide B/C/S translations of those

21 written diaries.

22 I will distinguish this situation from that which we had with

23 respect to an earlier witness, whose name I will not mention, but whose

24 entire diary became an exhibit, in which case we did produce a -- a

25 translation of the entire diary. You will recall that that witness came

Page 16025

1 back for purposes of cross-examination. That's a very different situation

2 where the entire diary is being tendered into evidence.

3 As I've indicated, Ambassador Okun's diary covers periods prior to

4 the indictment period, number one; and number two, it is more than 700

5 pages long. And my understanding is that we have selected the excerpts of

6 that and those excerpts have either been translated and disclosed or are

7 being -- in the process of being translated and will be disclosed as soon

8 as those excerpts are available. And if it would be helpful, I can again

9 cite the Trial Chamber to a decision of the Appeals Chamber that clearly

10 indicates the definition of a statement, and it is clear, in our

11 submission, that the handwritten diaries of this witness are not

12 statements which would require the full translation thereof.

13 Of course if any of the Defence teams want to use excerpts other

14 than those which the Prosecution is proposing to tender, they are fully at

15 liberty to either produce their own translations of those excerpts or to

16 request CLSS to produce translations of those excerpts. And again,

17 perhaps this might be an issue that we want to, or one of the parties,

18 wants to come back to on Thursday when we'll have a little bit more time

19 to discuss any of these outstanding procedural or evidentiary matters. I

20 do have a witness standing by to begin his testimony. I believe we can

21 finish that witness's testimony this evening, and I would propose that we

22 do that rather than -- than run the risk of having the witness not

23 complete his testimony today with respect to this matter, which can be

24 dealt with and resolved in a couple of days' time anyway.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges will think about

Page 16026

1 this, think about what Mr. Kovacic said. On the 13th of July in 2006, we

2 rendered a decision about the evidence and paragraph 5 of the decision

3 states, "the admission of an excerpt of an exhibit is not excluded on the

4 only basis that the entire exhibit has not been tendered into evidence.

5 When the opposing party states that the excerpt takes on a different

6 meaning within the entire context of the exhibits, that party has to

7 demonstrate its assertion. If the party wants to discuss the other

8 excerpts at the hearing, it has to provide the necessary translations."

9 So we dealt with this matter before. We'll deal with it again

10 tomorrow during our daily meeting, and we'll tell you whether we'll deal

11 with this during the special hearing dedicated to the issue raised by

12 Mr. Karnavas. But this is a different matter. So we'll think about the

13 matter and we'll tell you what we think tomorrow. As far as I'm

14 concerned, I know perfectly well what I want to do, but I'm not alone. I

15 have colleagues next to me, and we'll deal with this tomorrow.

16 We're now going to bring in the next witness, and I'm returning

17 the decision to the legal officers.

18 No protective measures for the next witness if I'm not mistaken.

19 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour. Good evening, Your Honours; good

20 everybody in the courtroom. There are no protective measures for this

21 witness, Your Honours.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness to

23 come, going back to the previous witness, I will be tendering the

24 entire -- all of his diaries in because of the aspect of the joint

25 criminal enterprise. It's historical in nature. It gives a continuity of

Page 16027

1 what was happening in the break-up of Yugoslavia, in the negotiations that

2 followed, and also I -- just very briefly, I think that the Defence is

3 going to require about four days of cross-examination of this gentleman.

4 I'm saying this right now. He's an important witness, and I think to

5 assume that one party can do a cross-examination in one hour is really

6 unrealistic, given the nature of what he's going to be talking about and

7 the extent of his notes, because I think the notes are very, very

8 important. These are notes while he was taking -- he was basically the

9 secretary for Vance-Owen during those meetings so that's why I mention

10 it. But we can discuss this at some other point.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've taken note of what you've

13 said.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, can you please stand up

17 because now I have to ask you to take the solemn declaration. Can you

18 please give me your last name, first name, and date of birth.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mufid Likic. I was born

20 on the 27th of August, 1969 in Stupni Do.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently I'm unemployed.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before a

24 court of law about the events that took place in your country or is it the

25 first time that you're testifying about this?

Page 16028

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the proceedings against

2 Dominik Ilijasevic that are still ongoing. I'm a witness there.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please read out the

4 text.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You may sit

8 down.

9 Let me give you some information. You will now answer questions

10 put to you by the Prosecution. The Prosecution have decided that they

11 need about 30 minutes to ask you a number of questions and to show you a

12 number of documents. Following this, the Defence will have one hour and a

13 half - that's been decided by the Chamber - will have one hour and a half,

14 that may be too much, to put questions to you, and you have to answer his

15 questions, both from the Prosecution and the Defence. At any time the

16 Judges sitting before you can put questions to you, but now we refer to

17 wait for both parties to have put questions to you before asking

18 questions.

19 If at any time you do not feel well, please tell us immediately

20 that it is the case, and since we won't have time to complete your

21 testimony today, you will have probably to come back tomorrow.

22 Let me now give the floor to the Prosecution for the

23 examination-in-chief.

24 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Examination by Mr. Bos:

Page 16029

1 Q. Good evening, Mr. Likic.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 MR. BOS: Your Honours, Mufid Likic is a 92 ter witness and his

4 testimony is relevant to paragraphs 207, 208, and 210 of the indictment,

5 and I will first give a summary of his written statement. I'll read out

6 the Rule 65 ter summary.

7 The witness is a Bosnian Muslim man from Stupni Do. In 1993, the

8 Croatian Democratic Union, Croatian Defence Council, held the power in

9 Vares. The mayor of Vares, a Muslim woman, was no longer allowed to

10 perform her function and was forced to leave.

11 On 30 August, 1993, the witness was arrested and taken to an HVO

12 military prison in Vares. He was beaten and interrogated about Stupni Do

13 and how many ABiH soldiers were there -- there were. The next morning,

14 the witness was taken to a civilian police station and again

15 interrogated. The witness escaped but spent several days in hospital

16 because of his injuries.

17 On 18 October 1993, on the way from Breza towards Stupni Do, the

18 witness and five other Muslim men were arrested at an HVO check-point.

19 For the next several days they were held in three different locations in

20 Vares, including the police station and the steel factory. They were

21 beaten and interrogated at all locations.

22 During his detention in the steel factory, the witness could see

23 that Stupni Do was burning and under attack. Witness was also held in the

24 secondary school where there were many more civilian Muslim males. During

25 an UNPROFOR visit, about 25 detainees who were in the worst condition were

Page 16030

1 hidden. Two soldiers visited the witness during his detention. One of

2 them said he was slaughtered -- that he had slaughtered Ramiz Likic, in

3 Stupni Do. They fired shots over the detainees' heads and tortured the

4 men. The next day the witness was in such bad condition that he had to be

5 taken to the hospital in Vares-Majdan and the next day to the hospital in

6 Vares.

7 Ivica Rajic and Leon Dodik came to the hospital. Dodik recognised

8 the witness and told Ivica Rajic he was a Muslim. Rajic said, "Slaughter

9 him and throw his corpse in the river Stavnja -- Stavnija [as

10 interpreted]." After they left the witness beg the doctors to help him.

11 He and another Muslim man were taken to the UNPROFOR base in Ponikve.

12 That concludes my 65 ter summary.

13 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about your

14 written statement. Is it correct that you provided a written statement to

15 the offices of the Prosecutor of the ICTY on 28 October 1998, and the 1st

16 of December, 1998?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at that time that you -- that you provided this written

19 statement did you answer the questions to the investigator truthfully?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you ask -- did you answer these questions freely, that is,

22 without any coercion?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at the conclusion of that interview, was the statement read

25 back to you in the Bosnian language?

Page 16031

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you then sign that statement in the English language?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Now, Witness, with the assistance of the usher I'm going to now

5 show you your statement.

6 Now, if you can take a look at Exhibit number 09883, and --

7 which starts with the English version of your statement, and could I ask

8 you to confirm whether the signature on this statement is indeed your

9 signature?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, yesterday when you met with an investigator and myself

12 you were given an opportunity to review your statement in the Bosnian

13 language and to make any corrections or clarifications if necessary. Do

14 you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is it correct that you then had a couple of corrections and

17 clarifications that you wanted to make -- wanted to make to your

18 statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, to save some time, what I will do is -- is, I will reach --

21 for each correction I will -- or clarification, I will read it out, and

22 maybe then you can confirm whether that's, in fact, the correction or

23 clarification that you wanted to make.

24 The first one is in the fourth paragraph of page 4 of the English

25 statement which reads: "Because he was an invalid -- invalid, Resad would

Page 16032

1 not be able to walk with us to Stupni Do, and therefore he would drive

2 back to Breza."

3 Now, is it correct that this sentence, especially in the B/C/S

4 version, may be interpreted as if Resad Likic was not arrested on the 18

5 October 1993 but, however, that he was in fact arrested together with the

6 other men that were stopped at that time? Is that correct?

7 A. It was written there that he was supposed to come back in order to

8 come back to Breza. That is what we thought, that he should come back to

9 Breza because he was a disabled person, but we didn't get to the village

10 of Breza where we were supposed to come back, and he was arrested together

11 with us, and we came by car.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, maybe -- maybe I'll -- it's -- I can

13 refer to you -- to your statement in the B/C/S language on page 5. You

14 will find the B/C/S statement there as well. And if you could go to page

15 5 of your statement, and -- and about the fourth paragraph just below --

16 about -- just below the middle of the page there is a sentence which reads

17 in full, and in the English version it's on page 6, the second full

18 paragraph where you mention the name of four other Muslims who were

19 detained with you in the same room at the steel factory. Now, is it

20 correct that yesterday you stated that one name was omitted there, and

21 could you give us which name was omitted, in fact?

22 A. Yes. Cizmo, Mujo. He was there, too. Nedzad Cazimovic is

23 written down here. Fahrija Balta, Semso Ibrisimovic, Besim Paralangaj,

24 but Cizmo, Mujo is missing.

25 Q. Could I refer you to page 6 of your statement and the second line

Page 16033

1 from the top. There is a sentence which reads as follows: "When Ahmed

2 did not react he cut off one of his ears." Is there something you want to

3 say about this particular sentence?

4 A. Yes. When Ahmed didn't react, I wanted to say that he had cut his

5 ear a bit with a knife, not that he cut it off completely.

6 Q. Thank you. And can I again refer you to page 6, and this is near

7 the bottom of the third full paragraph. There is a sentence which

8 reads: "Plecic carried me to the UNPROFOR unit who then transported me to

9 their compound in Ponikve, situated in the outskirts of Vares." What did

10 you want to say about this particular sentence, Witness?

11 A. I wanted to say that Enes Plecic, who was with me, was just as

12 beaten up as I was and that he couldn't carry me. This doctor who took us

13 out of the hospital brought us exactly to UNPROFOR in a car because it was

14 the UNPROFOR people who were on -- the women and children. And he came

15 right there to them. They took me from the vehicle and transported me to

16 their own transporter. So Enes was as beaten up as I was, so he certainly

17 couldn't carry me, whereas here it says that he's the one who carried me.

18 Q. Now, besides these clarifications and corrections that you've just

19 made, are there any other corrections or clarifications you want to make

20 to your written statement?

21 A. No, I read it twice. I think that's it. That's the way it was.

22 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you to look now at Exhibit 08850, which

23 is also in that bundle. Witness, this is a list of names, and is it

24 correct that yesterday in proofing you went through this list of names?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16034

1 Q. Now, what I would like you to do today in court is again through

2 this list of names and identify the names of the persons of whom you know

3 that they were detained with you in the various detention centres that --

4 that you -- that you were in -- in this period of October 1993. So what

5 I'm only -- I'm only interested in the names of the persons who you can

6 confirm were also detained at the time you were also detained in either

7 the secondary school or the steel factory. So maybe if you can go through

8 the list and then mention the number and then -- and tell us in which

9 detention centre that person was with you.

10 A. Number 2, Edin Galiba Adanalic. When they transferred me to the

11 hospital, to the emergency ward there, they had already brought him there.

12 He was already there because he had sustained serious injuries.

13 24, Fahrija Balta.

14 Q. And where was this person detained?

15 A. In the steel mill. The ones I'm going to read out were all in the

16 steel mill, together with me. 40, Nedzad Cazimovic; 43, Salem Cerenic;

17 90, Semsudin Ibrisimovic; 122, Ibrahim Karic; 144, Jakub Likic, my

18 brother; 148, Esref Likic; 149, Resad Likic.

19 Q. Witness, do you also see your own name? You may -- may have

20 not -- is your own name also on this list?

21 A. Yes. Well, I didn't want to point that out. That's 143. I think

22 that was unnecessary, but there you go, 143.

23 153, Himzo Likic.

24 Q. Witness, before we turn to the -- to the next page, could I ask

25 you again a question about number 122, because you've -- you've told us

Page 16035

1 that these were all prisoners that -- that were with you at -- in the

2 steel factory. Is the person you mentioned under 122, was he one of the

3 prisoners with you in the steel factory?

4 A. No, sorry. Ibrahim Karic was in the secondary school, in the gym

5 there. I remember him because he was a big man, corpulent, strong,

6 physically strong. They took him out to beat us, you know, the rest of

7 us. If he wouldn't do it, then they would beat him, so the man had to do

8 it. I remember that. And therefore I apologise for having included his

9 name among those who were at the steel mill.

10 192, Besim Paralangaj; 219, Fikret Selman; 239, Meho Trklja.

11 Q. That is it?

12 A. That's it. Well, yes, as for what I can be sure of those are the

13 names.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness.

15 MR. BOS: Your Honours, that concludes my examination-in-chief of

16 this witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I am going to ask

19 the usher it take the witness out of the courtroom very briefly, but I

20 have to do this, and then I'll ask the registrar to move into private

21 session.

22 Sir, you will have to leave the courtroom for a few minutes, and

23 then you'll come back. It will be very brief.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please,

Page 16036

1 Mr. Registrar.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 MR. KARNAVAS: While we're waiting, if I may make one observation

Page 16037

1 in order to speed up the process. Obviously in a case like this where the

2 gentleman has looked at a list of names and has gone over the names with

3 the Prosecutor, it makes no sense to then have the witness try to spot

4 them on the -- you know, when they've already done this already in the

5 proofing session. I mean, it gives the illusion, somehow, that now the

6 witness is doing it fresh from his memory. Therefore, given that it's

7 merely an illusion and we're not in front of a jury, it makes sense for

8 the Prosecutor to simply just lead the witness and say yesterday in a

9 proofing session when I showed you the list you identified X, Y, and Z,

10 and so on and so forth. I think that would be, in my opinion, a better

11 way to -- to proceed, if indeed they've gone over the list, because there

12 are no secrets at that point.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is a very

14 interesting suggestion. It's up to the Prosecution to apply it, and that

15 would indeed save a lot of very precious time.

16 It's now for the Defence to conduct the cross-examination.

17 Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President and Your Honours, we have no

19 questions for the gentleman. We wish to thank him for coming here to give

20 his evidence.

21 Thank you very much, sir.

22 MR. MURPHY: I have no questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

24 Mr. Kovacic.

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Praljak would have

Page 16038

1 a few questions.

2 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

3 Honours.

4 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Mr. Witness, good

6 afternoon.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. On page 3 of the Croatian version of your statement in one, two,

9 three, four, five -- fifth paragraph from the bottom, you said that on the

10 18th of October, 1993, you were in your uncle's house; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You say that Himzo Likic was there, too, commander of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Stupni Do unit.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Jakub Likic, member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Stupni Do

16 unit?

17 A. Yes, that's my brother.

18 Q. All right. Esref Likic, commander of the battalion in Breza, near

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Resad Likic, former member of the army of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he stepped on a mine and became an invalid, and

21 Ahmed Likic member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Stupni Do unit?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you say all were dressed in civilian clothes except for Esref

24 who was wearing camouflage uniform?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16039

1 Q. Tell me, were there quite a few people in the army of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina who often wore civilian clothing?

3 A. Yes, in the beginning until the army was established; of course,

4 they did not have uniforms.

5 Q. When you say in the beginning here a reference is made to the 18th

6 of October, and you say out of six or seven men everybody wore civilians

7 clothes except for Esref. So do we agree that the members of the army of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina then, in Vares and around Vares, very often wore

9 civilian clothes as though they were members of the BH army; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. And you say for the very same day, a few lines down,

13 that a man in BH army uniform walked in as you were sitting there, and he

14 took Himzo out and spoke with him for a while.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When Himzo came back he told us that they had to go to Stupni Do

17 because the situation was getting worse and there were -- there was

18 already fighting going on between the HVO and the BH army around Vares,

19 especially in an area called Lijesnica. Is it correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That fighting around Vares started -- or, rather, around Lijesnica

22 started around the 18th?

23 A. Well, I don't know whether that was the date, but if that's what I

24 wrote then that's correct.

25 Q. All right. Was Lijesnica in that direction from where the 2nd

Page 16040

1 Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was coming, the one that was

2 stationed in Zenica -- or, rather, the 3rd Corps - sorry - stationed in

3 Zenica?

4 A. How can I know? I was not the corps commander, sir, you know.

5 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm not insisting on anything.

6 A. Well, I don't know. I really don't.

7 Q. All right. You say further on that this man who informed you

8 about the fighting having started, you say he told us that the man who

9 visited him and spoke to him was the chief of staff of the army BH

10 brigade of Vares. Do you know that the Bosniaks, the Muslims from Vares,

11 had their own brigade which was a regular brigade of the army of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Regular brigade, they had it when the army took Vares. That's

14 when it was the regular brigade.

15 Q. What about earlier on? You say here that the chief of staff of

16 the brigade of Vares of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina spoke to him?

17 A. Well, all right. Perhaps that's what they called it, brigade, but

18 it wasn't a brigade.

19 Q. Do you know what --

20 A. No, no. He was outside with him. I personally did not see the

21 man, and they talked when they took him outside.

22 Q. All right. So you don't know what the number of that brigade was

23 and whether it had a name, the brigade of the BH army composed of Bosniaks

24 Muslims from Vares, that is.

25 A. The 122nd Brigade, I think. I think that's what it was called.

Page 16041

1 Q. Was it the 322nd or the 122nd?

2 A. The 322nd.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know whether that brigade, the 322nd

4 Brigade, attacked Vares together with the other units of the BH army from

5 the 2nd and 3rd Corps?

6 A. I wasn't there then. I was in hospital. I was in Breza.

7 Q. In talking to the people you knew later on, did you receive any

8 information to the effect that that brigade, the 322nd, composed of

9 Bosniaks from Vares, took part in the attack on Vares?

10 A. Well, certainly --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly be asked to approach

12 the microphone. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You said that you were received by a Croatian doctor and despite

15 risk to him sent you to hospital where there were 15 other wounded Croats;

16 is that correct?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct, and I would

19 like to say thank you to the doctor.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

21 Q. And on page 6, on page 6 you also confirm -- you say underneath

22 that: "I spent the rest of day in that department and the following

23 night, and the next morning we were able to see and hear that there was

24 fighting going on from the direction of Mount Perun, and it seemed that

25 the BH army was attacking the HVO from its positions."

Page 16042

1 Now, do you confirm that statement of yours?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know that the HVO as it was from the arrival of the people

4 from Kakanj, from June, or the arrival of the people from Kakanj, until

5 the 18th of October succeeded in preserving an oasis of quiet, of calm in

6 Vares, as witnesses said, until the attack started, regardless of the

7 problems that occurred with so many refugees, right up to the 18th --

8 17th, 18th of October when the BH army started to attack Kopljari and take

9 control of it, and that they had three dead, two wounded and so on? Do

10 you know that at that time there was law and order, relatively speaking,

11 with enough food and everything else in Vares up until that time?

12 A. As to enough food, sir, if you turn over to the second page and

13 read about this oasis of peace on the 30th of August and what it says, I

14 said I was with Adisa Likic, Edina Kadric, and Almedina Lukovic [as

15 interpreted] in a cafe called Mak in Vares-Majdan. I intended to buy a

16 truck and, for that purpose, I had four and a half thousand Deutschmarks.

17 I would just like to refer to that oasis of peace, as you said it. I was

18 arrested in that oasis of peace and they took away my four and a half

19 thousand Deutschmarks and my health. And I spent all the rest of the time

20 in the hospital in Breza, in that oasis of peace and calm.

21 Q. Witness, I will be asking you the questions and would you kindly

22 answer them. I'm not trying at all to deny what happened to you

23 individually, personally. Now what I asked you about the oasis of peace

24 is something that witnesses testified to here in this court who belong to

25 your own nationality or ethnic group. I didn't imagine this, think this

Page 16043

1 up. I wasn't in Vares but I'm talking about the general state of affairs,

2 not what happened to you, and it is with regret that I learn what happened

3 to you, but who took part in the knowledge that you had four and a half

4 thousand Deutschmarks. This is something that the Court of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina must establish, which unfortunately isn't doing that,

6 and I'm asking you about the overall situation regardless of the very ugly

7 and terrible personal fates that you individually suffered. I don't want

8 to contest that at all. So I'm asking you once again: After the arrival

9 of the 15.000 people from Kakanj who were expelled in June 1993, up until

10 the 18th of October of that same year in Vares, generally speaking,

11 without taking into account the terrible situation you yourself were in,

12 what -- would you say that the situation was tolerable with a view to

13 food, that it was a relatively calm, that kind of calm can exist in a

14 state of war?

15 A. Well, it was peaceful, but there wasn't enough food because

16 whatever we went to buy in Vares we had to wait and they were -- policemen

17 were waiting for us at Stupni Do. We men wasn't -- weren't able to go

18 down to Vares and the women had to make do and go to Breza and take the

19 food. Now as far as shooting is concerned, there wasn't any of that.

20 Q. Thank you. I don't need to ask you anything else. Thank you for

21 answering my questions and for coming here.

22 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

24 Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] -- Witness, good afternoon. With respect to a

Page 16044

1 statement made by General Praljak and the question he asked you -- the

2 question that was asked you, and he said that he wouldn't go into the fact

3 that four and a half thousand German marks were taken away from you, I

4 would just like to see if what you say in your statement in that respect

5 is correct, that you received a receipt for the money that was taken away

6 from you by the military police. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Witness, on the 18th of October, 1993, you

9 were arrested when, with a group of your compatriots, you were going from

10 the direction of Breza towards Stupni Do; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On that day, were you a member of the BH army?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Witness, I would like to remind you of your statement, or more

15 exactly your testimony of the 31st of May, 1996, and it is --.

16 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Once again, I'd like to draw

17 Your Honours' attention to the fact that it is a document provided to us

18 by the Prosecution which was not envisaged as an exhibit in this -- these

19 proceedings, and it is an interview of this witness held on the 31st of

20 May, 1996, with the investigating judge of the higher court in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Now, Witness, on that occasion you said and the first sentence of

22 your statement is as follows: "I was a member of the BH army." That's

23 how you start off.

24 A. I was a member of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army from the 13th of

25 January, 1994.

Page 16045

1 Q. No, this is what you said, sir: "I was a member of the

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina army but in the Vares-Majdan cafe, a cafe when I --

3 where I was wearing civilian clothes on the 30th of August, 1993. I was

4 arrested and they beat me for two days, and seven days later I had to

5 spend time in hospital."

6 So you're talking about August 1993, and before the Sarajevo court

7 you said that at that time you were a member of the BH army. Can you tell

8 us whether you were telling the truth, testifying to the Sarajevo court?

9 A. I told the truth but perhaps it was understood in a different

10 way. They asked me whether I was a soldier, so I was a soldier from the

11 13th of January, 1994.

12 Q. Witness, tell me, please, if you were not a member of the BH army

13 why then do you emphasise the fact that you were wearing civilian

14 clothing? Because if you weren't a soldier that would be quite normal.

15 You would normally be wearing civilian clothes.

16 A. When I gave this statement, the investigator asked me whether I

17 was in civilian clothes, because he knew that all the rest were members of

18 the BH army, and just Esref was wearing a military uniform. All the

19 others were wearing civilian clothes because they had come to visit me in

20 the hospital, because -- well, I was not in -- I was in hospital by the

21 uncle [as interpreted]. And I had been beaten up.

22 Q. So you were ill on that same day when, from Breza, you were moving

23 towards Stupni Do, that same day; is that it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, Witness, in your statement, in the Croatian version it is

Page 16046

1 on page 3, and it's roughly in the middle of the page, towards the lower

2 half of the page, you say: "Because of the injuries that I sustained due

3 to the beating during the interrogation, I had to stay in hospital for

4 seven days in Breza. After that, that is to say after hospital, I was not

5 able to return to Stupni Do because the relations between the Bosnian

6 Croats and the Bosnian Muslims in the area of Vares were not particularly

7 good. I learnt about the tensions from my cousins from Stupni Do," and

8 that is why you stayed with your relatives in Breza; right? So explain to

9 us, Witness, what tension was there? What was that all about, and why did

10 your relatives advise you not to go back to Stupni Do?

11 A. Well, it was like this: Already at that time when I was down

12 there, the HVO of Vares had already made an ultimatum once to the unit in

13 Stupni Do to hand over their weapons, and the people had already moved out

14 once, the elderly and the women, and so the people advised me not to go

15 there because it wasn't any good up there, and then the people returned,

16 and they were there in Stupni Do.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness added -- "prior to the genocide,"

18 the interpreter heard.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. It was an HVO demand by which the military unit of the BH army in

21 Stupni Do should hand over weapons. That's what that was about.

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the Trial Chamber

24 would like to know whether the other Defence counsel have questions for

25 the witness, because we are looking at the clock. One of my colleagues

Page 16047

1 would like to have a question -- to ask a question.

2 Ms. Tomic, would you have questions?

3 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll

4 certainly need 10 to 15 minutes.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I won't need any time. Thank

6 you, Mr. President.

7 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. So it was these tensions, those tensions.

9 Now, this unit of the BH army which you mention now in Stupni Do,

10 how many members did it have?

11 A. About 20 people.

12 Q. Tell me, please, the inhabitants of Stupni Do and the military

13 unit of the BH army in Stupni Do, this request by the HVO to hand over

14 their weapons, did they understand this as a threat of some kind or not?

15 A. Well, of course they took it at a threat, and that's why they told

16 me not to go there. The people didn't want to hand over their weapons,

17 and then they thought that a conflict would erupt.

18 Q. Tell me, please, in expecting conflicts did they build trenches,

19 prepare themselves for a defence, strengthen their BH army unit in Stupni

20 Do, reinforced it, which would be logical if one expects a conflict to

21 break out?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to how many new forces arrived to

24 Stupni Do to help out the BH army in preparation for a defence in a

25 possible conflict?

Page 16048

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please?

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Were the units of the BH army ready, for example, from Breza, that

4 in the case of a conflict they should move towards Stupni Do straight

5 away?

6 A. I can't tell you that. It would be logical. Now, whether they

7 did, well ...

8 Q. We'll deal with that tomorrow, analysing the plans of the

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina army, but I'll make use of my five minutes to analyse

10 this statement of yours in greater depth.

11 On the 18th of October, in Breza, you found yourself there with

12 people from the unit -- units of the -- Stupni Do, from the battalion in

13 Breza. Can you tell us how many members the battalion in Breza had?

14 A. How should I know how many soldiers the battalion in Breza had?

15 Q. Very well. Then the chief of staff of the Vares Brigade of the BH

16 army arrived. Can you tell us how many members that brigade had?

17 A. I don't know why you're asking me that. How I would know how many

18 soldiers a brigade numbered?

19 Q. Very well. Now, you go on to say in your statement that Himzo

20 told you to set out with him in order to take some relatives out of Stupni

21 Do. Can you tell us what you meant by taking out relatives from Stupni

22 Do, and what was all this about on the 18th of October, 1993? What could

23 that have been? What could it have meant? Why? What were the reasons

24 for that?

25 A. Well, we knew that it was a village under siege, encircled, and

Page 16049

1 that, if anything happened, that there would be a massacre because it's a

2 small village under siege with few fighters, little weapons, and that

3 meant that somebody ought to take the people out of the village to save

4 their lives.

5 Q. That's what I'm interested in, precisely. So the plan was to

6 evacuate the civilian population from the village in order to avoid a

7 possible, as you -- the term you used, massacre.

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague has told

10 me that the answer given by the witness on line 22, page 99, was not

11 recorded, so can I just take a moment to see where that was and what that

12 was about?

13 Q. Witness, my question to you was whether you have any knowledge

14 about units of the BH army who came to Stupni Do in order to prepare the

15 defence in the case of a possible conflict, and now your answer wasn't

16 recorded. So would you repeat your answer, please?

17 A. Well, not a single man came.

18 Q. Thank you. So that last question of mine was whether there were

19 any plans on the part of the BH army for the civilian population of Stupni

20 Do to be evacuated in order to prevent what you termed a massacre.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, please, was that a plan for the evacuation of the whole

23 population?

24 A. It was a plan to evacuate the elderly people and children, you

25 know, because there were people who were sick and things like that.

Page 16050

1 Q. Witness, the fact that the people who were supposed to be

2 evacuated, you didn't mention the women among those people, leads me to

3 conclude that the women in Stupni Do had their wartime assignments, war

4 tasks. Can we agree with that?

5 A. No. In Stupni Do they had the task and assignment --

6 Q. To defend Stupni Do; right?

7 A. Well, the three women working in the kitchens.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. Yes.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes, I think you should not interrupt the witness

10 to tell him what he has to tell you when you ask a question, as you just

11 did. But I think the time's up for today anyway.

12 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think you're

13 able to follow the course of our question and answer in B/C/S, because the

14 witness made a slight pause. Now, that pause, I used to ask this

15 additional question. Otherwise, it wasn't my intention to interrupt the

16 witness, and I know it's not proper to do that, and I never do that.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness, we'll continue tomorrow.

18 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. It's 7.00 p.m. We'll

20 reconvene tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

23 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.