Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16448

1 Wednesday, 28 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Good morning to everybody. Good morning to the Prosecution, the

11 Defence counsel, and the accused.

12 Today we are to proceed with the testimony of Nelson Draper.

13 Before he comes into the courtroom, I'm going to ask the registrar to

14 gives some IC numbers.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. 5D has

16 submitted a list of documents to be tendered through witness Patrick van

17 der Weijden. The list shall be assigned exhibit number IC 513. Several

18 parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered through Witness

19 Hakan Birger. The OTP list shall be given Exhibit number IC 514. 3D list

20 shall be given Exhibit number IC 515, 4D list shall be given Exhibit

21 number IC 516.

22 Thank you very much, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 Very well. We're not at all in a hurry. We have nearly two days

25 ahead of us. As I reminded you yesterday, the Prosecution will have two

Page 16449

1 hours, as scheduled. We've received from them all the documents they plan

2 to put into evidence through the witness and, as to the Defence counsel,

3 they, too, have two hours for their cross-examination. I don't know which

4 documents they plan to prepare and present. So this is how the hearing is

5 going to unfold.

6 Please, Mr. Usher, bring in the witness.

7 [The witness entered court]


9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. First of

10 all, I want to check whether you can hear in your language my words as

11 they're being translated. If so, please say yes, you understand me.


13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, sir, state your surname,

14 first name, and date of birth.

15 THE WITNESS: Draper, first name Nelson, date of birth 15 April

16 1954.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your current

18 occupation?

19 THE WITNESS: Current occupation is truck driver, working in the

20 oil patch where I live in Saskatchewan, Canada.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Have you had an

22 opportunity to testify before a court of law as to the events that took

23 place in the former Yugoslavia or is this the first time you're going to

24 testify?

25 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.

Page 16450

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

2 declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Please sit

6 down.

7 Since this is the first time you are going to testify, let me give

8 you some explanations as to the way this hearing is going to take place.

9 First you will have to answer questions put to you by the representatives

10 of the OTP. I suppose you have met them yesterday or the day before

11 yesterday, and they will ask questions of you. They will also submit

12 documents to you. I suppose you have reviewed these documents with them

13 before. Once this is done, the Defence counsel, they are on your left,

14 there are many of them but rest assured there will only be one per accused

15 who will put questions to you, and it may be that the accused themselves

16 ask questions as part of what we call the cross-examination.

17 As to the four Judges who are in front of you, as per rules, they

18 can ask questions at any time, but it's been a while now. We prefer

19 waiting until all parties have completed their examination in order to ask

20 questions to clarify some of your answers or because we think that some

21 important questions that should have been put to you did not get to be

22 put. So it is then important in our eyes for -- in the interests of

23 justice to ask you those questions.

24 Try to provide clear answers, because, as you know, these are

25 trial proceedings that are also kept -- and the record of which is kept in

Page 16451

1 a transcript. So it's important for us to have your answers to the

2 questions, because it's on the basis of your answers that we will make our

3 final decision.

4 If you do not understand a question, do not hesitate to ask the

5 person asking you that question to reformulate it. If at any time you do

6 not feel well, there -- again, ask us to have a break. We have a break

7 anyway every 90 minutes. We break for 20 minutes for you to have a rest,

8 on one hand, and on the other hand so that the tapes can be replaced.

9 So this is what I wanted to tell you so that your testimony can

10 take place in the best possible conditions for you and for all of the

11 people present here in the courtroom.

12 So this being said, I'm now giving the floor to the Prosecution.

13 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours. Good

14 morning to the Defence counsel and to everybody else in the courtroom.

15 Examination by Mr. Flynn:

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Draper. Can you hear me?

17 A. Yes, I can sir.

18 Q. I know that these proceedings will seem a little intimidating to

19 you. I assure you that they're not and please feel relaxed, but it's

20 important that you keep your voice up so that everybody hears you. So

21 speak into the microphone if you will, please.

22 Now, you told us that you were a driver, I think working in the

23 private sector. I think previous to that you had worked in the public

24 sector and were a member of the Canadian Armed Forces; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir. I joined the Canadian armed forces 30th November 1972,

Page 16452

1 as a military policeman, and I stayed a military policeman throughout my

2 career with the Canadian Armed Forces, and I retired approximately 20th of

3 January, 1995.

4 Q. And could you tell Your Honours what training as a military police

5 you received during the course of your career within the Canadian Armed

6 Forces?

7 A. Basically you went through the normal boot camp for the Canadian

8 Armed Forces, and right after that I went to military police school to

9 commence basic military police procedures, training, which dealt with

10 ordinary traffic accidents, simple investigations, this type of procedures

11 that were taught. Once that training has taken place we're posted to a

12 business where you commence normal duties which could include security,

13 ordinary policing duties. And as your career progressed you went back to

14 the training school, which I did on numerous occasions, and you upgraded

15 your police training to involve more intensive police techniques that

16 involved interviews, interrogations, and this continued on. It's a

17 continuing process right throughout your career. And accompanied by this

18 you take a -- like, you upgrade your leadership training at the same time.

19 Q. And by the year 1990, what was your rank within the Canadian Armed

20 Forces?

21 A. By this time I had reached a rank of a warrant officer.

22 Q. I think warrant officer is a senior non-commissioned officer; that

23 is correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And with that rank, did your responsibilities increase?

Page 16453

1 A. Yes. For a warrant officer, you're looking after subordinates

2 that you instruct and look after, that there are reporting procedures and

3 then you report to a higher command.

4 Q. And what was the largest number of subordinates that you were in

5 charge of and looked after?

6 A. Approximate -- approximately 30 at one time.

7 Q. Were these other military police officers?

8 A. Yes, these would be other military police officers.

9 Q. Now, in the course of your career, did you serve abroad?

10 A. Yes, I did. I served abroad on temporary duty to Bosnia for six

11 months.

12 Q. Can you tell us when you went to Bosnia and how long you spent

13 there?

14 A. I went to Bosnia with the former United Nations Military Police

15 Platoon to look after the Bosnia-Herzegovina area, with the exception of

16 Sarajevo. There were six of us from Canada that came over to start it up.

17 We were supposed to have a contingent of, I think, between 30 and 50

18 military policemen.

19 Q. Could you just stop there. What year was this, can you remember?

20 A. This would be 1993. I think we left -- left Canada and arrived in

21 Zagreb on the 8th of October, 1993, and then on the 10th of October, 1993,

22 we made our way to Kiseljak, Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the BH command was

23 located.

24 Q. And can you tell us in very brief, general terms what your duties

25 were in Kiseljak?

Page 16454

1 A. The duties in Kiseljak would be providing United Nations police

2 service to the country, which we dealt with anything that involved a

3 peacekeeping unit with -- with the civilian side of the house or --

4 whereas their own units have their own regimental police that deal with

5 events happening in their own units. If it involved any civilian aspect,

6 like a traffic accident, that's where the United Nations military police

7 would come into being to look after investigations of that type. The --

8 Q. Sorry, continue. Can you tell us what was the military police

9 chain of command for your unit for the period you were serving there?

10 A. These military police would report to me, and I would report to

11 Captain Gale, who was the platoon commander, and Captain Gale would report

12 to the command provost marshall, who was at the time Major Dongor.

13 Q. Did your duties include criminal investigations?

14 A. Yes, they would have.

15 Q. Sometime in October 1993, can you receive orders from your

16 superior regarding an investigation of alleged crimes committed in a

17 location called Stupni Do outside the town of Vares?

18 A. Yes, sir. It would have been on the evening of the 26th of

19 October, 1993, where Lieutenant Gale approached me and tasked me with

20 investigating what he termed a massacre that had occurred at the village

21 of Stupni Do in which civilians were killed.

22 Q. Now, you say "massacre." Were you given much of a briefing or

23 overview what was alleged -- as to what was alleged to have occurred?

24 A. It was -- if memory serves, it was -- they were saying it was an

25 HVO-led attack that had occurred on the village and that civilians were

Page 16455

1 killed.

2 Q. Do you know who was the -- who was living in the village at the

3 time? What predominant faction was living there, what predominant ethnic

4 group?

5 A. BiH. It was my understanding it was a BiH pocket of mainly

6 Muslims that were in a Croat-controlled pocket, or HVO-controlled pocket.

7 Q. Now, who was to be the lead investigator for the purpose of this

8 investigation?

9 A. I was assigned the lead investigation.

10 Q. And can you tell us, when did you arrive to Stupni Do and who, if

11 anybody, travelled with you?

12 A. BH command put together a convoy proceed Stupni Do which consisted

13 of BH command authorities, some legal people, press people, and my MP

14 team, and we left Kiseljak and proceeded towards Stupni Do stopping at the

15 town of Dabravine on the way there.

16 Q. What was the purpose of this stop in Dabravine?

17 A. When I -- when we arrived there I was able to speak to a BiH

18 official who had told me that there was numerous survivors of Stupni Do in

19 that town. So I had teed up with them to try to get me some names so that

20 once I come back from looking after or investigating the site that I would

21 be able to interview some of the witnesses. Once that was done, we

22 proceeded on to Stupni Do, arriving just before noon hour on the 27th of

23 October, 1993.

24 Q. Can you describe for us the condition of the village when you

25 arrived on the 27th of October, 1993?

Page 16456

1 A. Yeah. On arrival, as we were coming in sight of the village, you

2 could tell that most of the village had been destroyed, burnt. You could

3 see burn, scorch marks on most of the houses. Most of the roofs were

4 gone, collapsed in on themselves. Exiting the vehicle you could smell

5 burnt -- the smell of burnt -- there was like a -- like a garbage dump was

6 that distinct smell of burnt flesh.

7 Q. Did you notice anything else?

8 A. Dead animals, garbage all -- well, debris all the other the place,

9 expended ammunition casings, grenades.

10 Q. Do you remember -- sorry.

11 A. Go ahead.

12 Q. Do you remember when you arrived if there were any residents

13 living in the village?

14 A. No. There were no residents at the time. The -- the village

15 was -- had been -- at the time was being secured by BritBat company

16 providing security at the village at the time, the commander of which was

17 Major Roy Hunter, I believe it was, who had -- I had spoken to about what

18 was going on in the village at the time and dealing with security, and I

19 had -- I knew the intentions were to let the press -- I think General

20 Ramsay wanted to have the press there.

21 Q. General Ramsay was the senior commander with --

22 A. Yes, he was the senior commander.

23 Q. With UNPROFOR?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. You arrived on the 27th. This was three days after the alleged

Page 16457

1 massacre in Stupni Do. Do you know if anybody else, any other groupings,

2 UNPROFOR or otherwise, had already visited the crime scene?

3 A. Yes. When I converse with Major Hunter, he had said he relieved

4 NordBat, I believe it was that morning, and they had been in there at that

5 time, and they relieved them. So you had two -- two different groups that

6 had already been through this at the time searching the village. And

7 considering -- considering this, I -- I had no reservations per se to

8 allow the press people to film the village because I knew the -- it wasn't

9 really a secure crime scene because of the -- all the troops that had been

10 rummaging around the village. So my main concern was just to have

11 Major Roy's people keep an eye on the press to make sure they didn't

12 tamper with anything, pick stuff up, or otherwise disturb the scene any

13 more than it was already disturbed.

14 Q. And so when you arrived there and you met Major Hunter, what did

15 you and your team, what was the first thing that you and your team did

16 when you arrived there in furtherance of your investigation?

17 A. I had Major Hunter who had already located -- knew where locations

18 where a lot of the bodies were, and so I asked him to show myself and my

19 team to all the body locations so I could have a quick overview of what --

20 where they were, and he did this, and we were followed by the press

21 people. So ...

22 Q. Can you tell us how many bodies you viewed?

23 A. Total was 16. They were at various locations in the -- in the

24 village itself.

25 Q. Can you describe the condition of these bodies? Were they

Page 16458

1 identifiable when you first saw them?

2 A. Not all of them. There was around seven of them that you could

3 identify, and then the rest were just burnt too far to even tell if they

4 were female or male, so ...

5 Q. Now, as lead investigator, did you assign specific tasks to your

6 team members?

7 A. Yes, I did. I had assigned master corporal Scott McKee with the

8 crime scene processing because he had an AV course, which in Canada is a

9 military police course that dealt with crime scene processing on how to

10 handle evidence, that type of thing. So he went through training just

11 specifically for that type of thing. So him having that qualification I

12 told him he would be processing the crime scenes, and I think it was Staff

13 Sergeant Verne I had detailed to be the evidence custodian, to look after

14 any evidence that they may have picked -- we may have picked up at the

15 time while we were there, and had one other individual, I think Sergeant

16 Platteau, P-l-a-t-t-e-a-u, I believe. He was to help in any other way, in

17 case we needed anyone like a -- i.e., will help with witnesses and so on.

18 Q. Sorry.

19 A. No, go ahead.

20 Q. Were all of these soldiers members of the Canadian contingent?

21 A. No. The only Canadian that I had at the time was Master Corporal

22 McKee. I didn't have room to bring anyone else.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you might have answered this already, but can you tell

24 us what your priorities were and what tasks, specific tasks your team

25 undertook, and what your priorities were on this first day?

Page 16459

1 A. The main priorities on this day was to process the crime scene as

2 fast as we could because I knew we were on a limited time-frame because

3 the units that were guarding the village for us had other escort duties,

4 other duties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. This wasn't part of their duties. It

5 was something they were doing other than their duties, and they had to go

6 back to those duties. So that being said, I wanted to get as much done

7 before we got pulled out of there as we could. So I instructed Master

8 Corporal McKee where to start with the -- the crime scenes where we could

9 identify the victims first and then each place where there was a body

10 type -- or bodies would be a crime scene.

11 Q. Did you have your team search the area for physical and material

12 evidence related to the incident?

13 A. Yes. That would be mainly on -- under Master Corporal McKee's

14 responsibilities as he was processing the crime scene.

15 Q. And what would happen to any evidence that they discovered?

16 A. The evidence they discovered would have been handed over, well,

17 bagged and tagged type thing, would have been picked up and tagged and

18 then given to staff sergeant Verne who would keep a log of it and secure

19 it.

20 Q. On this first day was your team accompanied by a photographer?

21 A. We didn't have a photographer available in our Military Police

22 Platoon at the -- well, we never had any equipment whatsoever. There was

23 no crime processing equipment that we had or anything, so we eventually

24 found a BritBat photographer that happened to be on scene, then used his

25 services.

Page 16460

1 Q. Do you remember the name of that photographer?

2 A. Pettersen, I believe.

3 Q. And how long did Mr. Pettersen remain with you until?

4 A. I assigned him with Master Corporal McKee, so I don't know if he

5 was there both days or just one.

6 Q. And his function was to take photographs of the crime scene, of

7 the remains and the bodies, I assume?

8 A. Exactly. Anything and everything that related to the

9 investigation.

10 Q. Was anybody designated to prepare sketches of the crime scene?

11 A. Yes. Staff sergeant Verne the evidence custodian also at the same

12 time was preparing a hand-drawn sketch of the scene, of the town that --

13 the main part of the town.

14 Q. Now, given the stated -- the limitations of your time and the

15 deadlines, did your team manage to finish on that first day? Did they

16 manage to finish the crime scene inspections on the first day?

17 A. No. We had arrived there around noon, and at close to 4.00 or

18 shortly after 4.00 it was getting dark, so we had to pack it in. We had

19 no additional lighting or anything. So at that time we made our way to

20 NordBat, who had a small base nearby.

21 Q. And did you meet -- did you meet representatives of the NordBat

22 unit, and did you speak to them about the Stupni Do massacre?

23 A. Yeah. I spoke to several of them there. Major Ekhard [sic] who

24 was the deputy commander, I believe, and a couple of the other regimental

25 military police who were there at the time. I spoke to them and got a

Page 16461

1 little bit more information of what had gone on at Stupni Do.

2 Q. And what kind of information did they -- did they give to you as

3 to what had happened at Stupni Do or afterwards?

4 A. They related that the day of the attack and then the next day they

5 knew the attack was going on at Stupni Do, and the HVO would not let them

6 pass to go into the village. On the -- they tried again on the 24th.

7 They still didn't -- still couldn't get in. And on the 25th they finally

8 were able to make it into the village.

9 I also spoke to another officer that had gone to -- on the 24th, I

10 believe, in the -- he went to his observation post at -- nearby at -- near

11 the town of Dastansko. They had observation post there, and he was saying

12 that at 10.00 that day when he went there he could hear some motors and

13 small-arms fire, and later that evening he could also see that the sky

14 above Stupni Do was just red from fires.

15 Q. Do you know whether or not any of these NordBat officers had

16 carried out any interviews with anybody related to what had happened in

17 Stupni Do?

18 A. One of the -- Major -- Ekhard -- Ekberg?

19 Q. Ekberg.

20 A. Ekberg had talked to a couple of women who said they had been

21 raped, that the attacking force had killed indiscriminately civilians

22 without -- actually, but rape, theft.

23 Q. Did they mention anything else other than the killings?

24 A. Well, other than -- you know, that they burnt everything. They

25 would be able to give you more information. I'd probably have to refer to

Page 16462

1 something, some notes or -- because I got too much in my mind. I don't

2 know if I'm skipping ahead of myself or -- or --

3 Q. We'll come back --

4 A. But generally.

5 Q. We'll come back to it in a moment.

6 A. Rape, killings, and ...

7 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, if I could just interrupt. As far as

8 we're concerned in the Stojic Defence, we have -- we would have no

9 objection to the witness referring to notes of his investigation. It

10 would be standard in the case of a police officer and might save some time

11 if -- so Mr. Flynn should please feel free to do that, as far as we're

12 concerned, if that would help.

13 MR. FLYNN: I'm very happy to hear that, Your Honours, and I'm

14 grateful to the members of the Defence team for mentioning that. And I

15 will ask -- I will ask Mr. Draper to refer to his notes in a moment.

16 Q. Just going back to the -- the crime-scene investigations, did your

17 team return on the second day to Stupni Do, on the day after?

18 A. Yes. They had to return to finish off the crime scene processing,

19 which they eventually did after that second day.

20 Q. And were you with the team on this day?

21 A. Not entirely, no. The -- the -- Master Corporal McKee was looking

22 after everything the second day at the village itself.

23 Q. Now, during these two days of examinations, did you -- do you know

24 whether or not the team availed the use of a medical examiner or a medical

25 officer to examine the bodies?

Page 16463

1 A. Yeah. That second day a medical officer accompanied Master

2 Corporal McKee. So -- and they went to each body that was there and did a

3 quick assessment of the body, the results of -- of which later on in a

4 debriefing with him indicated that most had been shot. Some appeared to

5 have what was, I believe, to be stab wounds.

6 Q. And do you know were any weapons found on or near any of the

7 bodies or remains?

8 A. For the most part, no. One body had some live shells, and I

9 believe a grenade or two near the body. And this body had the -- the body

10 had most of the clothes burnt off. It had combat boots, so we had assumed

11 that it was either a HVO or a BiH soldier or a defender. We weren't quite

12 sure at the time.

13 Q. Now, you -- was your team able to finish the crime scene

14 examinations on the second day?

15 A. Yes they were.

16 Q. And do you know how many crime scenes were examined in total by

17 your team on these two days?

18 A. Seven. Seven, you know, in different parts of -- different areas

19 where the main location of the bodies were. They were marked down on the

20 map that Staff Sergeant Verne had completed.

21 Q. Okay. Now, if I can just jump ahead a little for a moment. Did

22 you during the course of your investigations prepare written reports for

23 your superiors?

24 A. Yes. I believe I -- I submitted a total of four of them.

25 Q. And on the 15th of November -- or did you prepare a report dated

Page 16464

1 the 15th of November, a substantive interim report listing the seven crime

2 scenes?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And that stated other information as well as what was found on the

5 crime scenes?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. With the assistance of the usher I wonder if I may at this stage

8 introduce Exhibit number 06978.

9 You'll find it at the start of the second book, Mr. Draper. And

10 if you could turn the page to the first -- to the fourth page with ERN

11 number 00053356. Is this the report that you prepared?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if you could go later and go to page 0053385. Do you have it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. There are two signatures on that page. Is that your signature in

16 the middle of the page and that have your superior --

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. -- following?

19 A. First signature is myself. Second signature is my superior.

20 Q. And if you could go farther to page 00553391 you will find a map.

21 A. Yes, which is the map that staff sergeant Verne drew.

22 Q. So when I asked you about whether there were sketch maps prepared,

23 is this the map that was prepared by members of your team?

24 A. That's quite correct.

25 Q. And does this map basically indicate where the bodies were -- the

Page 16465

1 remains and bodies were located?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Now, if you turn to page 00053359 of the same report. It's at the

4 start almost. It's a couple of pages beyond the start.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. From paragraph 2 until paragraph 4, do you set out what you

7 actually found at the crime scenes, the various -- the seven crime scenes

8 that you inspected?

9 A. Yes. These is where it describes each crime scene.

10 Q. And was that report prepared based on your notes solely or on the

11 combination of your notes and those of your team members?

12 A. It was a combination of my notes and the team members.

13 Q. And could you tell the trial panel very briefly -- I don't want

14 you to read the report, but could you tell them -- go through crime scene

15 1 to crime scene 7 the basics of what you found?

16 A. Well, crime scene was a house there. In the -- the lower floor

17 was three dead women in a trap door leading to a lower area, a basement

18 area, like a root cellar or something. And outside the back was one body,

19 and then the other bodies were in the upper level of that house, burnt

20 beyond recognition.

21 Q. And there were three female bodies is that correct, which you

22 lettered A, B, and C on the map?

23 A. Yes, three female bodies.

24 Q. And these were later found -- identified as Nevzeta Likic, Hatidza

25 Likic, and Medina Likic?

Page 16466

1 A. Exactly.

2 Q. Look at the second part of that first crime scene report. Is it

3 correct to say that the badly burnt body that was found was believed to be

4 that of Adis Likic?

5 A. Yes. This is the one I had mentioned -- sorry, say that again?

6 Q. Is the body -- was that body believed to be the body of Adis

7 Likic?

8 A. Oh, the one outside the house in scene 1?

9 Q. Yes. If you look at subparagraph 2 of scene 1.

10 A. Right. Right. This is Adis Likic. This is the one that we at

11 first for a good part thought might be female and later once I interviewed

12 his mother found out it was a male.

13 Q. And his body was letter D on the map, the sketch map. It's on the

14 first line.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the first part of the crime scene 1 there were three badly

17 burned bodies, E, F, and G, of which were marked on the map; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. And --

21 A. The mother and two children.

22 Q. These were later -- were they -- were they established as being

23 Merima Likic, Mebrura Likic, and Vahidin Likic, or was it just a belief?

24 A. This was confirmed later on through witness interviews.

25 Q. Mm-hmm.

Page 16467

1 A. That's how we determined who was -- who was -- was there.

2 Q. Can you move now to scene 2 and just briefly tell me what was

3 found there.

4 A. Yeah. Scene 2 was the gentleman that I had mentioned earlier that

5 had most of his clothing burnt off, with the exception of the combat

6 boots, and there was some ammunition and a grenade or two I found around

7 his body.

8 Q. And he was -- he was later -- that was -- that body was later

9 believed to be the body of Samir Likic; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Now, at scene 3 what did you find?

12 A. Scene 3 was found between two dwelling -- like in a walkway, and

13 we later identified him as - pronunciation - Salih Likic.

14 Q. Salih Likic?

15 A. Salih Likic.

16 Q. And scene 4?

17 A. Scene 4 remains -- just have a look here. Yeah. He was in front

18 of a house, and he was severely charred. It was hard -- hard to say. The

19 medical opinion, I remember, was they weren't sure if the body was a

20 person or an animal, but some of the medical -- other medical people

21 thought it was probably a person. So that's how we treated it. There was

22 some doubt, so we just treated it as a human.

23 Q. And did you ever get confirmation that it was a human afterwards?

24 A. I believe -- I can't recall. From the autopsy reports that I got

25 later on I'm sure it was confirmed as a human. I can't quite say 100 per

Page 16468

1 cent sure though.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. But, yeah, we --

4 Q. And this body was letter J on your sketch map?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Now, scene 5. How many bodies did you find on scene 5?

7 A. Scene 5 there was four bodies. This was located on the -- the --

8 near the upper part of the town.

9 Q. Mm-hmm.

10 A. And they were all pretty well burnt beyond recognition.

11 Q. And they were marked as K, L, M, and N on your sketch map?

12 A. Quite correct, yes.

13 Q. And --

14 A. Later we identified them as -- well, as they're listed there.

15 Q. You later -- for the record you later think you identified them as

16 Edin Mahmutovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Rasida Likic.

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. Rifet Likic.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And Mehmet Likic?

23 A. Exactly.

24 Q. Now at scene 6, what did you find?

25 A. Scene 6 was the body of a man located near the same area, across

Page 16469

1 the street, I think, lying on his back with a charred piece of lumber

2 across his legs. He was later identified as Abdulah Likic.

3 Q. And moving on then to scene 7?

4 A. And scene 7 was just a little bit outside a hill in just a little

5 bit of a wooded area was an elderly gentleman that later returned -- we

6 found out was the mayor's dad, Zejnil Mahmutovic.

7 Q. Zejnil Mahmutovic?

8 A. Mahmutovic.

9 Q. And this was a total seven crime scenes that your team had

10 examined; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 Q. Apart from having photographs taken did you -- did your team

13 through any other medium record the investigations?

14 A. The second day we -- we were able to get a video camera, and so as

15 the team went through, this was a -- they filmed the different crime scene

16 areas.

17 Q. And when was this taken and by whom?

18 A. This would have been taken the next --

19 Q. You arrived --

20 A. The 28th. The 28th. And it was taken by one of the members of --

21 I believe Sergeant Jim Steward who had come up that day, I think, because

22 he brought the video camera with him.

23 Q. Now, did you have an opportunity during your first few days of

24 your investigations to interview any of the Stupni Do inhabitants or

25 survivors? And I don't want you to mention any names at the moment.

Page 16470

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And can you tell us when this was?

3 A. On the 29th of November.

4 Q. And without giving their -- their names to us at this point, can

5 you tell us in general terms what they told you had happened in Stupni Do

6 and who had taken part in the attack?

7 A. The attack happened on the 23rd, the morning of the 23rd around

8 8.00 and continued throughout the day, petering out at around 4.30 that

9 afternoon. The -- there were civilians lying out -- outside their houses

10 shot, some women taken in the houses and raped, and they were saying that

11 they were HVO that had -- had done this. And must having their valuables

12 taken from them, their jewellery they were wearing or money that they had.

13 Q. Of course you mentioned when you arrived in the village seeing all

14 the burned houses. Was there any mention of burnings and arson?

15 A. Yeah. They were setting fires to all of their houses and taking

16 the bodies of the people that they had killed and throwing them into the

17 houses as they burnt to burn them up.

18 Q. Now, did the witnesses identify who the attackers were, and did

19 they give any descriptions of how they were dressed, weapons they were

20 carrying or otherwise?

21 A. The -- they mentioned that they were HVO. They were wearing

22 camouflage uniforms. Some were dressed in black, wearing flak jackets and

23 white ribbons. Mostly white ribbons tied to their epaulettes, cammed-up

24 faces.

25 Q. What did you say about faces?

Page 16471

1 A. Cammed. Disguised their faces.

2 Q. Painted, camouflage?

3 A. To blend in with the forest or ...

4 Q. And did any of the witnesses indicate that they had recognised any

5 of those soldiers?

6 A. Not at this time, I don't believe none of them were recognisable.

7 They weren't soldiers that they recognised from -- locally, local

8 soldiers. They all seemed foreign soldiers to them.

9 Q. And these initial witnesses that you interviewed, did they

10 indicate from what faction the soldiers had come, from which army?

11 A. Well, eventually a lot of the witnesses said they were from --

12 that the Kiseljak area, brought in from the Kiseljak area.

13 Q. But which army?

14 A. HVO.

15 Q. HVO.

16 MR. FLYNN: Now, I think at this point, Your Honours, I would have

17 to ask to go into private session because I'm going to ask the witness

18 something about one of the protected witnesses.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar,

20 private session, please.

21 [Private session]

22 (readcted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16472











11 Page 16472 redacted. Private session















Page 16473

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.


21 Q. Now, Mr. Draper, on the basis of your early discussions with the

22 NordBat UNPROFOR forces and those few local witnesses that you initially

23 interviewed, did you form any opinion as to who the perpetrators were?

24 A. Yeah --

25 Q. What their crimes had been, committed?

Page 16474

1 A. Yeah. Based on my observations in the village myself and the

2 interviews I had conducted up to that time there -- there was no doubt in

3 my mind that -- like -- I don't know if the term "massacre "is

4 appropriate, but killings of innocent people definitely take place, and it

5 appeared that the HVO were the responsible party.

6 Q. Did you learn from where the HVO forces had come from that had

7 committed the attack?

8 A. Yes. Eventually through the interviews I learnt that they had

9 come from the Kiseljak area at different groups, one being the Apostoli,

10 and the other one being the Maturice. I don't know if I have my

11 pronunciation right.

12 Q. Have you heard the name Maturice? Does that ring a bell with you?

13 A. That was the one. That's the one, and the other --

14 Q. Have you heard Apostoli?

15 A. Apostoli, yes, exactly.

16 Q. And did you get any information as to who the commander was at the

17 time this attack took place? And I know it's difficult for you to

18 pronounce names.

19 A. I think Major Ramsay was -- at the time had mentioned Ivija Radic.

20 Q. Ivica?

21 A. Exactly.

22 Q. Does the name Ivica Rajic mean anything to you?

23 A. Yes, that's exactly right.

24 Q. And did you or your team make any efforts to contact the HVO

25 authorities for assistance with your investigation once you learned that

Page 16475

1 it was the HVO, for fact that it was the HVO who had been involved?

2 A. Yes. Once I got back to my unit, one of the first things I had

3 done was make up a memo and sent it up the chain of command to the legal

4 to get ahold of the HVO and let them know I wanted to talk to anyone

5 involved in the attack on Stupni Do because I was doing the investigation

6 and wanted to -- as much information as I could get on it.

7 Q. And were you aware personally at that time whether any assurances

8 had already been given by anyone in the political or military hierarchy of

9 the HVO?

10 A. Not at the time. Not from me.

11 Q. Mm-hmm. So following the initial interviews that you held in the

12 first few days after your investigation, did you carry out many further

13 interviews with survivors and inhabitants of Stupni Do or other UNPROFOR

14 forces?

15 A. Yes. For my -- the rest of my tour there, when time would permit

16 and circumstances would permit, I continued that investigation, trying to

17 interview people involved with this attack until my tour ended.

18 Q. And can you tell us briefly how these interviews generally were

19 conducted?

20 A. Usually what happened is once I located the subject, where they

21 were, I would go, interview them at that location either it being, you

22 know, in a school, their home, in a local public office, NordBat itself.

23 I interviewed people there. So wherever the location permitted, that's

24 where we did the interviews.

25 Q. And were these interviews conducted by your members of your team

Page 16476

1 in addition to yourself?

2 A. Yes. All of my team from Canada were senior military policemen,

3 so they had appropriate interview skills, and I used that to my advantage.

4 So whenever we were able to go, I made sure I brought another team so we

5 can do simultaneous interviews, get as many done as we could.

6 Q. Did you obtain written statements from the witnesses?

7 A. Well, I tried. Most witnesses didn't want to provide written

8 statements, but I eventually got hold of video equipment, and I used that

9 quite -- most of them allowed me to videotape their interviews, and it was

10 done in a normal police procedure where at the beginning of the interview

11 we would identify them and make sure the information they gave was

12 voluntary and not something that someone else said, something that they

13 saw regarding the attack.

14 Q. And can you tell us how many such interviews were conducted and

15 over what period?

16 A. From late October right -- I think last one was in March.

17 Around -- around 50 thereabouts, at least.

18 Q. And where were these interviews conducted by and large?

19 A. Mostly wherever the people were located. If they happened to

20 be -- near the beginning a lot of the interviews were done in Dabravine.

21 And then once BA -- BiH took over the Vares area many of them moved back

22 to Vares, and we did interviews there.

23 Q. And do you remember -- did you give a statement to the ICTY

24 between the 20th and 23rd of August, 1995?

25 A. Yes. That's correct. They -- a couple of their members came over

Page 16477

1 to Canada, and I met them in Toronto and provided them with a statement.

2 Q. And in that statement, is it correct to say that you listed many

3 of -- the names of many of those interviewed by your team and the dates of

4 the interviews?

5 A. Yes. Mainly, though, my -- my interviews that I personally had

6 done.

7 Q. And you stand by at that statement today?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, time won't allow us to go through all of the statements which

10 you mention in your statement and those people you interviewed, but I just

11 want to ask you about some of those interviewed.

12 Do you remember, did you interview a person by the name of Suada

13 Likic?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And --

16 A. She was one of the ones I interviewed.

17 Q. And was -- was Suada Likic in the village of Stupni Do when the

18 attack occurred?

19 A. Yes. Yes, she was.

20 Q. And do you remember what she told you?

21 A. Yes. Do you mind if I briefly look at the notes just to make sure

22 I don't get her confused with someone else.

23 Q. Certainly.

24 A. I'm sure I know which one it is.

25 Q. I'm unable to give you a reference for this one. I thought you

Page 16478

1 might have had the information.

2 A. Yeah, I have it in my personal notebook. If I can refer to that.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Murphy, do you also agree to the use of the

4 personal notebook?

5 MR. MURPHY: Yes, Your Honour. We have no -- yes, Your Honour.

6 We have no -- I think it's quite standard in the case of a police officer

7 that he should be allowed to refer to notes, and I think Mr. Flynn would

8 also agree that if it should become necessary for the purposes of

9 cross-examination the Defence would be entitled to inspect any portions of

10 the notes he may refer to. I don't say that will be necessary but it

11 would follow from the normal practice.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. FLYNN: Sorry.

15 Q. I think for the sake of clarification, when you say -- or when you

16 refer to your notebook, are these notes which you took during the course

17 of the interviews?

18 A. Or shortly thereafter.

19 Q. So --

20 A. It would be right in the time frame, within that same day or

21 within a few days after that.

22 Q. And did you use those notes for the purposes of compiling the

23 various reports, the substantive reports that you subsequently delivered

24 to your superiors?

25 A. Exactly. If you wish it, if it's more convenient, we can just use

Page 16479

1 the report paragraph where I had interviewed the person.

2 Q. Well, whichever --

3 A. It's going to be the same.

4 Q. Whichever is easier for you. If you could tell us which -- what

5 Suada Likic told you happened.

6 A. Okay. So I interviewed her on -- yeah. I went to Vares on the

7 26th of Jan 1994, and I went to a building where there was an apartment

8 complex, and there I was introduced to -- how do you pronounce her first

9 name?

10 Q. Suada.

11 A. Suada Likic, born in 1974 in Vares. So I did the normal interview

12 with her, and she confirmed general events of that day.

13 Q. Did she mention the course -- during the course of her interview,

14 having escaped, meeting a group of people in the forest?

15 A. Yes, once the attack had finished and they finally escaped to the

16 forest, she mentions at one point she had -- yeah. They had found --

17 there were 80 or 90 other villagers that they met, and --

18 Q. Did she mention -- did she mention meet lady who had been shot?

19 A. Yes. Mufija Likic. I'm just seeing if I can see it here, but I

20 remember her saying she had meet -- met --

21 Q. Mufida Likic, is that what you said?

22 A. Yes. Mufida Likic. Oh, here we go. The group had many wounded,

23 for -- one which was a girl who had -- who was shot in the leg, Mufida

24 Likic.

25 Q. Now did you also interview a lady by the name of Ferida Likic?

Page 16480

1 A. Yes, just after I interviewed Ferida Likic, and that was on the --

2 Q. I think at this stage we may need to go back into private session,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go back into private

5 session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 16481

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open, Your Honours.


13 Q. Now, during the course of the various interviews that you

14 conducted over the period that you stated, did you notice any major

15 discrepancies or inconsistencies between the statements of the various

16 witnesses?

17 A. Here and there I noticed little discrepancies, but with all the

18 interviews I did, it provided a general overall view that was consistent

19 with everybody.

20 Q. Did you get any information during this period of time whether or

21 not the defendant -- the village had been defended on this day?

22 A. Yes, I did. There -- there was approximately 36 BiH -- I guess

23 they were BiH defenders that manned like trenches in different areas

24 around the village.

25 Q. Well, when you say BiH, were they described by the witnesses as

Page 16482

1 BiH or --

2 A. No. Like they're village members. A lot of them would be -- I

3 don't think they were -- I can't say for sure they were, you know, regular

4 soldiers, you know, marksman-type like myself. The ...

5 Q. So they were villagers.

6 A. Yes. Like most of them lived in that town.

7 Q. And at the end of March 1994, did you prepare another substantive

8 report which turned out to be your last --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- based on your investigations up to that date?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Now, before doing so, had you received any positive response from

13 the HVO authorities to your earlier requests for assistance with your

14 investigation that you mentioned?

15 A. No. The memo I had originally sent to legal to try and go through

16 proper channels to get to interview anyone involved in the attack didn't

17 meet with any positive results for me, so I think it was in March that I

18 tried getting an interpreter in Kiseljak to go direct to the HVO liaison

19 officer to get me set up to interview Radic or --

20 Q. Mr. Rajic.

21 A. Rajic, or a member -- you know, the commander of the - what do you

22 call them? - Maturice, or anybody who was involved in the attack, but

23 that --

24 Q. What response did you get to that?

25 A. That was no -- didn't get a positive result on that either.

Page 16483

1 Q. Were you told anything about Mr. Rajic at that particular time?

2 Was he still in Kiseljak?

3 A. I just -- I believe he -- they were just saying he wasn't

4 available. And then for the commander of the other group, he had been

5 wounded, was over in Split.

6 Q. Which other commander are you talking about?

7 A. It was the commander of either the -- one of the groups I had

8 mentioned earlier, the Apostoli or --

9 Q. Was this a commander below Mr. Rajic?

10 A. Yes, I believe -- yes, mm-hmm, because Rajic was the overall

11 commander.

12 Q. And the upshot of all of this, did you actually get any

13 cooperation, and were you able to interview anybody at all from any of the

14 HVO units that had taken place -- that had taken part in the events in

15 Stupni Do?

16 A. None whatsoever.

17 Q. Now, did you prepare -- did you prepare a written report dated the

18 26th of March, 1994, updating your earlier reports?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I think this was the last report that we mentioned?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And on the basis of your interviews and observations and notes and

23 investigations had to that date, can you tell me how many deaths were

24 attributed to the attack in Stupni Do?

25 A. Total from all the interviews it turned out to be -- it turned out

Page 16484

1 to be 38.

2 Q. And were their 38 bodies recovered from the crime scene by

3 UNPROFOR or your investigative team?

4 A. No. Only the 16 were recovered there. The rest were buried

5 amongst the debris.

6 Q. And do you know whether or not there were any medical examinations

7 or autopsies performed on those bodies recovered from either by UNPROFOR

8 or BiH authorities outside the examinations carried out by the officer on

9 the 28th of October.

10 A. Yes apparently the bodies went to the Visoko mortuary where

11 autopsies were performed on the 16.

12 Q. And who was it who performed those autopsies?

13 A. I believe it was the coroner at that mortuary. At one point we

14 were able to obtain copies of them, which I believe I attached to one of

15 my reports.

16 Q. Mm-hmm. And did you also manage to obtain video footage of the

17 autopsies?

18 A. Right. I found out that they had conducted video footage, and I

19 was able to obtain a copy of that.

20 Q. Now, at this stage I'd like you to turn in the second booklet to

21 Exhibit 8121, 08121. It's halfway into the booklet.

22 A. Page number again?

23 Q. If you look at the tab firstly, 08121.

24 A. What tab was this -- the four-digit tab?

25 Q. The four-digit tab on the edge?

Page 16485

1 A. What was it again you said?

2 Q. 8121 or 08121.

3 A. Mine are all six digits.

4 Q. The second booklet, perhaps.

5 A. 8121. And page?

6 Q. Now, just look at the first page firstly. This is a letter dated

7 the 28th of March. Please find here military police report for your

8 information. And if you look at the following pages, is this a report

9 prepared by you dated the 28th of March?

10 A. Dated 26th of March?

11 Q. Date the 26th of March. My apologies.

12 A. Yes, this is my report.

13 Q. And if you turn to page 43 on that report, which is ERN number

14 R0048851.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that your signature and again the signature of your superior,

17 Lieutenant Gale?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Now, you see at the bottom of the page you annex a number of

20 documents. The first document is Annex A. And if you turn over the page

21 to page ER R0048852, you have a list of deceased.

22 A. Correct. That's a list of deceased from Stupni Do.

23 Q. And the total of this list is 38?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Can you tell us how this list was compiled?

Page 16486

1 A. This was a list on the first day that we went to Stupni Do when I

2 stopped off at Dabravine, and I spoke to that official and I had asked him

3 to try and get me a list of villagers from Stupni Do. He provided shortly

4 thereafter a lot of surviving members and a list of deceased members.

5 That were -- where this list came from.

6 Q. And this list contains the father's name of the deceased and the

7 date of birth; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Did you later learn that the date of births for some of the

10 deceased mightn't correspond to their actual date of birth?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Now, could you turn to page 8 -- R -- R0048862. Which on e-court

13 is 8815, 48 and 49.

14 A. 48862?

15 Q. It's 8862; if you look for 8862.

16 A. 8862, annex G to my report, interview dates.

17 Q. This is annex G?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the top. And interviews dates. Is this a list of those people

20 who were interviewed by you during the period October to March?

21 A. Yes, it is. Mainly of -- most of them are the villagers. There's

22 a couple other ones like -- but mainly villagers.

23 Q. Now, could you go back to Annex F, please, which is on page 8861.

24 This is another map.

25 A. Right.

Page 16487

1 Q. Now, according to the annex, this should have contained

2 photographs of the crime scenes, but in fact it contains a map. Are you

3 able to explain that? Annex F, 8861.

4 A. Annex F.

5 Q. Do you have the page?

6 A. Yeah, I have it. Photographs depicting different massacre scenes.

7 No. That should be -- that's a topographical map of Stupni Do, not

8 photographs, definitely.

9 Q. And there are seven -- the number 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 are

10 marked on the map. Do these represent the crime scenes?

11 A. Yes, they do.

12 Q. Now, lastly, could you turn Annex I, which is on page 8876.

13 A. 48867 you said?

14 Q. No, 48876. Keep going. I think you have it.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Annex I?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This is a, copy topographical map also, and on this map is marked

19 deceased and various numbers. Can you tell us what this map is?

20 A. This is the a copy of the same topographical map, and what I had

21 done is mark the deceased's body locations according to the list of

22 deceased that we had -- you had previously mentioned, 1 to 38.

23 Q. So is it correct to say that this map should be read in

24 conjunction with Annex A, which lists the numbers of the deceased?

25 A. Numbers of the deceased. Right. That's correct.

Page 16488

1 Q. Now, did you also around the same time prepare a briefing video to

2 include in the results of your investigations including clips from autopsy

3 examinations by BiH authorities and a small clip showing the damage to

4 Stupni Do?

5 A. Right, I did. I went to Zagreb to do that video.

6 MR. FLYNN: At this stage, Your Honours, I would be asking to show

7 the video, but I am aware that we have reached the break and perhaps

8 Your Honours may deem it appropriate to take a break.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to take a

10 break and then we'll have a look at the video.

11 It's 10.30. We're going to have a 20-minute break.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before watching the video, let

15 me raise a technical issue. The interpreters have asked that they not be

16 obliged to translate the video because on the screen there will be

17 subtitles. I don't know what there is to see on that video. If someone

18 speaks in English, for example, it's perfectly natural that what is being

19 said in English should be translated into B/C/S. We want the public to be

20 able to understand what is going on. If something is written in English

21 and it's not interpreted, the people outside of this courtroom won't

22 understand what's going on.

23 Mr. Flynn, what is the problem? We have here the -- in our

24 documents the transcript of what is said, but the public sitting outside

25 of this courtroom does not have this document. So if they see a video, if

Page 16489

1 they watch a video without being aware of the translation, that might

2 cause a problem.

3 MR. FLYNN: I'm aware of that, Your Honour. Firstly, let me tell

4 you that what Your Honours will see are an extract from video Exhibit

5 06 -- 06318, which contains some sound and which will have the transcript

6 appended to it during the course of the video. You will also see a

7 video -- extract from a video 06321 which will have some sound, but the

8 sound -- the sound -- it will just be sounds of machines. The actual

9 speaking is blocked out.

10 So when you're watching the first video, as you're watching it the

11 transcript certainly will appear on English underneath. I'm not aware

12 that it would appear also in B/C/S.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but my question is the

14 following: What about the person listening to us or the person watching

15 these proceedings who can only speak B/C/S? Would that person be able to

16 understand what is being said in this video? That's the problem. Because

17 if I look at 6318, if I have the transcript in English and if I also have

18 the translation in B/C/S, as we all do here, that's fine, but outside of

19 this courtroom those watching us do not have these documents.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Wouldn't it be possible for the

21 interpreters to translate the subtitles?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll ask the interpreters to do

23 their best and then we'll see how it works.

24 Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry. Sorry to jump up and interrupt.

Page 16490

1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Mundis, microphone, please.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry to interrupt my colleague but my understanding

3 is the booths have been provided with a B/C/S transcript of this

4 videotape, so perhaps I've missed something along the way, but normally

5 when there are transcripts, including in B/C/S, those are provided to the

6 language booths. So I'm a bit at a loss as to why they simply couldn't

7 read the transcript that's been provided to them.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note there has never been any

9 problem with -- with the interpreters doing the interpreting of the video.

10 We were just wondering if we need to read the English despite the

11 subtitles.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. We'll ask the

13 interpreters to translate the subtitles.

14 Okay. You can start the video.

15 MR. FLYNN: I should say to you before I do -- before we do,

16 Your Honours, that what you have in writing in front of you is a

17 transcript of this complete exhibit, but I prepared a -- an excerpt from

18 the exhibit because it would have taken us an hour to see the whole

19 exhibit, and so you have a transcript and not all of this transcript will

20 be read throughout the -- will appear in the video. So it will not be

21 sufficient for the translators to read directly from the transcript, but

22 the relevant portion of the transcript will appear with the video in

23 English and I think they will be able to read from that.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. FLYNN: Your Honours, that concludes the first extract of the

Page 16491

1 video. I have a very short video extract from video exhibit 06321, which

2 is by the BBC and which I wanted you to see because it shows a clearer

3 picture of scene 1, the scene in the basement, than the previous one did

4 because it was a little bit dark.

5 If you can run it.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. FLYNN: And that's merely the scene that I wanted you to see

8 because you couldn't see it in the earlier video.

9 We also have a compilation of the video taken during the autopsies

10 performed by the BiH authorities. I don't propose we go through every

11 single one of them, but what I'll ask Ms. Winner to do is to click on each

12 one and we'll examine for a few seconds and move on. It shouldn't take

13 any more than one minute.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. FLYNN: And that concludes the video exhibits.

16 Q. Mr. Draper, were you watching those?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. And did you recognise the scenes depicted in the videos?

19 A. Yes, I did. They were the scenes at Stupni Do.

20 Q. And did you visit them during the course of your investigation?

21 A. The scenes, yes, I did.

22 Q. And the soldiers seen in the video are part -- are they part of

23 your team, your investigation team?

24 A. Yes. They are a part of my MP platoon.

25 Q. Do the videos accurately reflect what was found at the start of

Page 16492

1 your investigation?

2 A. Yes, they do.

3 Q. You saw the second scene on the first video which your team took.

4 It took -- it was a photograph of what they described as what was believed

5 to be a BiH soldier.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was this person indeed a BiH soldier or was he found to be a

8 civilian?

9 A. He was a village defender.

10 Q. Now, during the course of your testimony this morning earlier, you

11 mentioned that you had obtained the services of a photographer, Mr.

12 Pettersen?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did he ultimately deliver the photos to you on your team?

15 A. Negatives, the negatives of the photos that he took.

16 Q. If you could just keep your voice up. And do you remember if

17 there were many photos?

18 A. Yes, there is quite a number of them. The total number I can't

19 recall, but there was quite a few.

20 Q. And did all the photos relate to Stupni Do?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were the negatives delivered to you personally or to one of your

23 team members?

24 A. One of my team members.

25 Q. Do you know if at the same time Mr. Pettersen delivered a

Page 16493

1 photographic log, a map of what was contained in the photographs?

2 A. Yeah. I believe one -- what it came in, I probably didn't see it

3 because it would have been entered right into the evidence at the time,

4 but -- I can't physically say that I saw it.

5 Q. I'd like you just to have a look at Exhibit number 06099 for me.

6 That's in the first book, the one with the -- the one with the table on

7 the front of it. Yes.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Do you have it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you turn to the first page you'll see "Photo Log," and it's

12 reference number BSP 1, photographer B. Pettersen, and on the left-hand

13 column he has negative numbers 1 to 10.

14 A. Sorry, can you give me the page number again.

15 Q. It is 6099. Do you have it now?

16 A. Right. I have it.

17 Q. And as I was saying to you, the first page shows a chart. He has

18 list of negatives 1 to 10 on the left-hand side column, and he has titles

19 to go with each of the negatives on the right-hand column?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You've never seen this, have you?

22 A. I don't think so. If -- I don't recall seeing it.

23 Q. But is it possible that this was given to a member of your team?

24 A. Yes, yeah. This guy was a professional photographer, so this

25 would be part of his normal procedure.

Page 16494

1 Q. Could you keep your voice up for me. And was he the only

2 photographer that you employed for the purposes of taking the photographs

3 of the crime scene during these two days?

4 A. As -- as I recall, quite possibly. We did have a couple of black

5 and white pictures that we developed locally, but they weren't submitted

6 as part of the report.

7 Q. But Mr. Pettersen was engaged for the purposes of?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Taking photographs of the crime scenes and the remains; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. Now, I'd like you to have a look at a number of photographs if you

13 will. I'll just get the page number. If you would look at 06116 in the

14 same booklet. And starting with the first photograph, ERN number

15 00357616, which is 130 on e-court, could you tell me if you recognise what

16 is depicted in that photograph?

17 A. Okay. This one's --

18 Q. You have it. First photograph.

19 A. Okay. It was partly taken off there. 616 was the last three?

20 Q. The exhibit, Mr. Draper, is 6116, and the first photograph has

21 00357616.

22 A. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I have it.

23 Q. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?

24 A. This looks like a scene --

25 Q. You'll have to keep your voice up. I'm finding it hard to hear

Page 16495

1 you.

2 A. This is scene 1. The three ladies that are in the trap door, you

3 can't see them very good in this one.

4 Q. Can you turn to the next photograph which is 00357599.

5 A. It's --

6 Q. And please keep your voice up, Mr. Draper. The e-court number is

7 113. Do you recognise what's in that photograph?

8 A. Okay. This is photo, a close-up picture of the three women that

9 were in the trap door at the -- scene 1.

10 Q. When you say trap door, what do you mean by the trap door?

11 A. The trap door that you had seen flipped up there beside the one

12 woman, leading into the -- or root cellar or whatever it is.

13 Q. You mentioned finding -- you mentioned your team finding three

14 bodies in a basement. Are these the three bodies?

15 A. These are the three bodies.

16 Q. Would you look at the following photograph, 00357539, e-court 107.

17 Is this another shot of that?

18 A. That's correct, another shot. Another close-up shot.

19 Q. The following photograph, 00357624, e-court 139 -- 138?

20 A. Close-up of the lady on the right.

21 Q. Is this a close-up of the lady on the right-hand side?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Next photograph is 00357618.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters.


Page 16496

1 Q. E-court 132. Do you recognise what that is depicted in that

2 photograph?

3 A. Stove.

4 Q. Do you know where this was?

5 A. Quite frankly, I can't recall. It rings a bell but I can't

6 exactly place it, I'm sorry.

7 Q. Okay. We'll move on. The next photograph is 000357489. And

8 e-court number is 3. Can you tell us what is depicted in that photograph?

9 A. That -- you can just make out the charred remains of the body.

10 Q. Are you in a position to say which body it is?

11 A. I don't want to say for sure, but it's one of the bodies at Stupni

12 Do. I just can't pinpoint this.

13 Q. Would you look at the next photograph, 00357495, e-court 9.

14 A. The same thing. You can --

15 Q. Again is this another charred --

16 A. Another charred body.

17 Q. -- photograph, charred body. Looking at photograph 00357966.

18 A. Be a --

19 Q. Which is 7966 on e-court?

20 A. It would be a photo of the mayor's dad, the one, the gentleman

21 found near -- yeah, kind of in the woods a bit.

22 Q. The following photograph 0358238, which is --

23 A. Of the same gentleman.

24 Q. -- 238 on e-court.

25 A. Yeah, that would be the same gentleman.

Page 16497

1 Q. And the next photograph, 00357965?

2 A. Close-up of his face, yeah. Same guy.

3 Q. And that was 7965 on e-court. We then come to photograph

4 00357764.

5 A. Right. A view of the village in that location there at Stupni Do.

6 Q. This depicts the destruction?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was e-court number 278. That brings us on to photograph

9 7726, e-court 240. Is this another picture of the destruction?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Photograph 00357525, 39 on e-court. Is this another picture of

12 the destruction?

13 A. 7525. Okay. Yes.

14 Q. Then moving on to photograph 00357527, which is 41 on e-court.

15 What have you depicted here?

16 A. This is the scene 2 area there of the gentleman that at first we

17 didn't know --

18 Q. I'm sorry, I'm still finding it hard to hear. Could you please

19 keep your voice up?

20 A. This gentleman has had his clothes burnt off except for his combat

21 boots, as you can see the ... We assumed that he was a BiH defender. At

22 first we weren't too sure.

23 Q. We move on to 00357522, e-court 36. Do you recognise that

24 photograph?

25 A. Right. This is a -- the same gentleman.

Page 16498

1 Q. Then turning to the next photograph, 00357519.

2 A. Same gentleman.

3 Q. And I'll just find the e-court number for that. The e-court

4 number is 33.

5 Photograph 00358155, e-court 8155. What have we depicted in this

6 shot?

7 A. One of the charred corpses.

8 Q. The next photograph is photograph 00358153, e-court 8153. Again,

9 is that one of the charred corpses?

10 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

11 Q. And the next photograph, number 00358092.

12 A. One of the charred corpse.

13 Q. One of the charred corpses.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the e-court number on that is 8092. This brings us to

16 00357508. E-court 22. Again we have pictures of the charred corpses; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes. 7508, you said?

19 Q. 7508, yes.

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. The next photograph is 00357498, e-court 12. Again we have

22 charged corpses?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On this occasion a charred corpse?

25 A. Yes, one.

Page 16499

1 Q. 00357513?

2 A. Charred corpse.

3 Q. E-court 27. Similar charred corpse.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to save a minute or

7 two, my learned friend for following the formal procedure needs to go

8 through all these photographs in order to tender them, but I'm sure that

9 all the photographs that are on the proofing chart, and I'm confident I

10 can speak on behalf of all the Defence teams, even if they're not shown to

11 the witness but are contained in the binder are quite acceptable.

12 MR. FLYNN: I do propose tendering all of these photographs at the

13 conclusion of this interview -- at the conclusion of this examination,

14 Your Honour. Do you wish me to --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but is it necessary to see

16 them all?

17 MR. FLYNN: It was for the record, but given the fact that I will

18 be submitting a final table of exhibits with these photographs, I think --

19 and the fact that my colleagues on the Defence don't appear to have any

20 objections and, for the sake of time, I don't think it's necessary to go

21 through the rest of them.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but there is a

23 question for you.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I'd like to ask a

25 question of the witness to have things clarified regarding photograph

Page 16500

1 00357599.

2 We saw a person, I believe a lady, wearing a military uniform. Is

3 the fact that she wears a military uniform, does it have anything to say

4 as to whether she was a combatant or not?

5 THE WITNESS: Can I see the photo? I think this is one of the

6 woman in the trapdoor, is it, on the right-hand side?

7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Exactly. Quite.

8 THE WITNESS: Right. On occasion you see people wearing the tops

9 of camouflage uniforms. I think if -- I believe that maybe if you saw a

10 photo of her in the autopsy she may not have been wearing only the top,

11 but from later witness interviews she -- she was -- she wasn't a member of

12 an attacking -- or the defenders. She was with these ladies, huddled.

13 This was a shelter area.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.


16 Q. Would you happen to know what age this lady was? Would that be a

17 fair question to ask you? Do you remember? If you don't, just say so.

18 A. I'm not too sure. Around 26. I think the lady in the middle was

19 the older lady and the other two were about the same age, younger.

20 Q. See -- these photographs which I've just shown you, did you see

21 these photographs before?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, during the course of your evidence this morning you've given

24 evidence regarding Stupni Do, what you learned about the attack and the

25 fact it was the HVO from Kiseljak commanded by Ivica Rajic, and you

Page 16501

1 described having been told by various witnesses of pretty horrendous

2 crimes committed against the inhabitants and villagers of the -- of the

3 village, and you also told us that you prepared a number of reports. Do

4 you know where your reports were sent ultimately?

5 A. When they left my office they went to the command provost marshall

6 at BH command Kiseljak, and from there they went to the force provost

7 provo marshall who was based in Zagreb, and they would distribute them as

8 they saw fit.

9 Q. Would they have eventually reached the United Nations?

10 A. That was my understanding.

11 Q. Are you aware on the 11th of February, 1994, the Secretary-General

12 issued a special report dealing solely with the massacre in Stupni Do?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'd like you to take a look at Exhibit 78 -- 07838 in your

15 booklet, please.

16 A. Under -- under what tab?

17 Q. 7838.

18 A. Definitely never seen this before.

19 Q. Well, could I ask you to turn to the second page and paragraph 6.

20 Paragraph 6 states basically that -- that between the hours of 8.00 a.m.

21 And 8.10 in the morning on the 23rd of October, 1993, while the village

22 defence force was changing shifts effectively that the village came under

23 attack, that the BiH armija force in Stupni Do congregated and that H

24 [sic] forces began to attack the BiH forces in this area, eventually

25 moving away at 1630 hours.

Page 16502

1 At paragraph 7 the report quotes from UNPROFOR Nordic battalion

2 sources about what happened afterwards, how they were prevented from going

3 into Stupni Do.

4 At paragraph 8, again reference is made to the UNPROFOR forces

5 entering Stupni Do, finding the village having been burnt, 52 houses in

6 the village showed signs of being burnt or burning. Fourteen bodies were

7 discovered. Some were identified, some were not identified.

8 On paragraph 9 it makes reference to the investigation of the

9 events surrounding Stupni Do.

10 At paragraph 10 it describes what many of the witnesses related to

11 the investigators.

12 At paragraph 11 it refers to the fact that some survivors from the

13 attacks stated they had been raped.

14 Number -- paragraph 12 deals with the manner in which they were

15 interviewed.

16 Is what I've just said to you being a synopsis of the report, is

17 this the way your investigation took place and is this the information you

18 learned during your course of your investigation?

19 A. Yes, it is, although I don't -- I do notice a few things. Like in

20 paragraph 9, military police interviewed most of the 193 survivors of the

21 attack, which is not correct.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. But basically, yes, generally.

24 Q. Now, I know you haven't seen the report but the report effectively

25 summarises your work, what happened in Stupni Do, your work, the work

Page 16503

1 undertaken by your team members, and what left -- and what was left to be

2 done; is that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Now, you remember that you prepared a list of the --

5 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, that's -- that's really just not

6 correct. The witness has already drawn attention to one complete

7 inaccuracy in the report and for Mr. Flynn to draw that sweeping

8 conclusion that this document that this witness has never seen before

9 effectively summarises his work is just not correct and in my submission

10 it's no basis for the document to be admitted. It should be presented

11 through a witness who knows about it.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may we just support that and add that

13 when Mr. Flynn said, "Is this the information you learned during the

14 course of your investigation?", there is a danger that that sweepingly

15 includes all the contents of the paragraphs which Mr. Flynn read out

16 understandably quite hurriedly which, again, Mr. Murphy has emphasised the

17 witness has never seen before. We need to be terribly careful about the

18 limits of what this witness can actually say.


20 Q. Well, Mr. Draper -- in answer do that, Mr. Draper, in paragraph 10

21 of the report on the third page, it says: "In describing the incident,

22 many witnesses stated that the HVO attackers were wearing black uniforms

23 with white bands on the left shoulder."

24 A. Right.

25 Q. "And green camouflage uniforms."

Page 16504

1 A. Right.

2 Q. "Some had camouflage faces and HVO patches.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. "While others had no identifying marks."

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. "While wearing black uniforms they also wore black baseball caps."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "And were suspected to be members of the HVO death squad or

9 special forces from Kiseljak."

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. "One survivor believed that HVO from Vares and the Bobovac Brigade

12 from Kiseljak took revenge on Stupni Do as a reprisal for BiH army

13 offences --"

14 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, this -- this -- I'm sorry to interrupt.

15 This is completely improper. This witness has no personal knowledge

16 whatsoever. I mean, his whole testimony has consisted of what he was told

17 by other people.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MR. MURPHY: He wasn't able to see any of these events himself or

20 conduct any investigation except to talk to others, and for him to be

21 asked to verify these opinions and speculate on this report is completely

22 incorrect. The Prosecution should call the proper witness if they wish to

23 have this document admitted.

24 MR. FLYNN: But --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Flynn, there are two

Page 16505

1 reports, report 8021 dated 26th of March, 1994. That's the witness's

2 report. He signed it. We can see his name in the report. And then there

3 is a second report, 7838, sent to the Security Council on the 10th of

4 February, 1994. The latter contains 13 paragraphs.

5 To avoid any problem, if you want to emphasise the report sent to

6 the Security Council, you have to ask the witness whether, based on his

7 own report, which parts he drew from his own report, and you compare those

8 portions to the report spent to the Security Council to see whether it's

9 matching or whether there are inconsistencies. Otherwise, as pointed out

10 by Mr. Stewart and Mr. Murphy, if you deal with the Security Council

11 report and he, the witness, did not draft it, it was drafted by somebody

12 else, it could be that there would be differences between the witnesses

13 report and that other report.

14 I mean it is, I think, a technical question of how to put the

15 questions. You can solve the problem without causing objections. And I

16 remind you that you can file your objections in writing.

17 So, Mr. Flynn, if you ask those questions, you plan to insist on

18 some salient points. Based on the witness's report, put the questions,

19 and then you can say, "Well, you stated this, and in the Security Council

20 report this is being said. So does this confirm your own conclusions,

21 Witness, or is it different from your conclusions?"

22 MR. FLYNN: That is what I was attempting to do. The witness

23 hasn't seen the report before, and certainly we don't have time to go

24 through the entire report, so I was trying to be selective, and I started

25 with paragraph 10, and I was reading the contents of that report with the

Page 16506

1 intention to say, "Was that your recollection? Was that the information

2 gathered by you?" But he actually said as I was reading it, "I remember

3 this. That is correct." And it was then that my colleague in the Defence

4 objected.

5 That was my intention, Your Honour, to take selective portions of

6 the report and ask him to -- to inquire from him whether it corresponded

7 with the testimony, information which he had been given.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed. Anyway, the

9 Judges will have both reports, and we can draw some conclusions from that.

10 MR. FLYNN: Exactly. And time won't allow me to question the

11 witness about everything.

12 Q. I'll just ask you very briefly. At paragraph 11 of the report it

13 is -- is it suggested that several female survivors from Stupni Do stated

14 they had been raped by HVO soldiers during the attack. Others reported

15 being robbed of their valuables, and in one case a 54-year-old grandfather

16 had been killed by automatic machine-gun fire. Did you receive any

17 information corresponding from that during the course of your

18 investigations?

19 A. Yes. As you're going over this, in my mind from the interviews I

20 did I could relate to what was said in the interviews that were conducted

21 and the information I had received and, yes, they do relate to information

22 I received from the witnesses.

23 Q. And finally at paragraph 12, halfway down, it says: "The main

24 suspects for the commission of these crimes appear to be extremist

25 elements of the Croatian Defence Council from Kiseljak, Travnik, and

Page 16507

1 Kakanj under the command of Ivica Rajic." Was that the information which

2 you received and which you mentioned earlier?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, earlier you -- you identified a list of deceased from Exhibit

5 08121, which you had prepared for us. I wonder could you go to your

6 booklet and open that page for us, please. It's page R0048852 from

7 Exhibit 8121. It's the list of deceased.

8 A. Right. I have it, Annex A.

9 Q. And you told us how you prepared that list earlier this morning.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in addition to preparing that list did you see death

12 certificates for any of the deceased?

13 A. We received death certificate, burial permission slips that I

14 obtained from the official from Dabravine.

15 Q. And --

16 A. And I attached them to an annex in my report.

17 Q. And did you compare the contents of those death certificates with

18 the information which is on your list of deceased and did they match?

19 A. Yeah. They -- I think there was maybe a date of birth off here or

20 there.

21 Q. And --

22 A. But for the most part --

23 Q. Would you leave that page open, please, for me.

24 And I wonder if we could ask to be put up on e-court Exhibit

25 number 8654.

Page 16508

1 Do you have it in front of you, if you look at your screen? If

2 you look at the television screen in front of you, do you see the

3 document?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is a death certificate in the name of Abdulah Likic, date of

6 birth 31st of August, 1936, and if you look at the bottom of the page, the

7 father's name is Likic Ibro. It was issued by the BiH authorities in

8 1996.

9 A. That's correct. I see that.

10 Q. Could you go back to your list now and tell me if the same -- you

11 have the same details?

12 A. Number 8 on the list there, Abdulah Likic, Ibro.

13 Q. And date of birth?

14 A. 31 August 1936.

15 Q. And the father's name?

16 A. Ibro.

17 Q. Ibro. Now, I don't propose to bring you through all of the death

18 certificates. Do you remember yesterday we did the same exercise in

19 respect to many of -- all of the deceased on your list?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And apart from some minor discrepancies attributable either to

22 some typos or dates being out by either one day or year, did the data

23 correspond with the death -- did the data from your list correspond with

24 the data which was on the death certificates, in particular the father's

25 or mother's name?

Page 16509

1 A. Pretty well so, yes.

2 Q. Have you any reason to believe that the certificates contained in

3 Exhibit 08655, Exhibit 0867 [sic], Exhibit 08664, Exhibit 08684, Exhibit

4 08685, Exhibit 08687, Exhibit 08688, Exhibit 08691, and Exhibit 08692,

5 have you any reason to believe that the certificates referable to those

6 persons are any different to the persons mentioned in your death list?

7 A. I believe the ones that we went through there were put against the

8 Annex A here. This exhibit pretty well matched up other than the typos

9 and ...

10 Q. Now, when you gathered all of the evidence during the course of

11 your investigations, can you tell us what happened to it?

12 A. All the evidence obtained during the course of the investigation

13 was turned over to our evidence custodian that was Sergeant Lunge of

14 Canadian nationality. He was the overall evidence custodian of the MP

15 platoon. So the -- for example, the -- all the evidence that Staff

16 Sergeant Verne had collected at the scene at Stupni Do would have been

17 turned over at the first opportunity to Sergeant Lunge who would have

18 taken control of it until it was handed over to, I think, the Hague here.

19 Q. And finally you mentioned earlier what efforts you had made to try

20 and contact Ivica Rajic, and I think you mentioned that you had received

21 information that he had left -- left Kiseljak. Did you receive any other

22 information concerning Rajic from any source?

23 A. One person I interviewed from which I determined that he had a

24 name change was Xray in my last report.

25 Q. Who was Xray?

Page 16510

1 A. Xray.

2 Q. Person --

3 A. Xray was a person that we -- that was arrested and held at

4 Kiseljak. And then eventually when I interviewed him he knew Rajic and

5 had dealt with him. And at one point I was given a form that was instead

6 of being signed by Rajic was now signed by -- and the name just escapes me

7 right now. Can I --

8 Q. Did you -- did you mention this in your report of the 26th of

9 March, 1994?

10 A. Of the name change?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I don't think ... I have it in my notebook.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Okay, yeah. Yeah. On my last report there. I had mentioned two

15 separate sources that indicate that he had changed his name to Viktor

16 Andric.

17 Q. Viktor?

18 A. Andric, A-n-d-r-i-c.

19 Q. Yeah.

20 A. One I think was in dispatch -- dispatches maybe that I had seen

21 and the other was the interview I did with this person in the report was

22 identified as Xray.

23 Q. And this document that you -- that Xray handed you, did you see

24 the name Andric on this document?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 16511

1 Q. And did Xray connect this document to Ivica Rajic?

2 A. I just want to refer to my notebook here. I think I have it

3 written down there what document it was. Because I visually remember

4 seeing it, but now, you know, I don't want to -- I'm not a hundred per

5 cent sure memory-wise. I'll just have a look.

6 MR. FLYNN: This is my last question, Your Honours. I'll be

7 finished after this.

8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. This individual was -- on being

9 released they were provided with charges which were being brought against

10 them. A copy was received, yeah, but they did not know yet when they

11 wanted to be -- they were going to be tried on the charges. They were

12 ordered to report once a day to the military security personnel. This

13 order was signed by Viktor Adric, A-d-r-i-c, [sic] which was Commander

14 Redic or Rajic.

15 Q. Commander Rajic?

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 Q. You mention two sources. Did you hear this from another source?

19 A. The other source, if I recall, it was probably on something like a

20 sitrep documentation. That's --

21 Q. Is this an UNPROFOR document?

22 A. Yeah, it would have been an UNPROFOR document.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. I don't have any further questions

24 for you.

25 MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 16512

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

2 Who is going to start for the Defence?

3 MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Your Honour. We have no questions for the

4 witness, and we have offered General Praljak any time that he may need

5 that's available to us.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For

7 your information, only the Defence teams for Mr. Petkovic and Praljak wish

8 to use the available time also from the other Defence teams for our

9 cross-examination. Following my examination, Mr. Praljak will put several

10 questions to the witness himself.

11 Could the usher please collect some documentation we have?

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Draper. My name is Bozidar

14 Kovacic, and I am counsel for one of the accused, General Praljak. I will

15 have several questions for you.

16 First, a question which has to do with some of your today's

17 testimony, namely page 35, line 10 or around line 10 of today's

18 transcript.

19 Today you said that you sent a request, a query, through the UN

20 structure up the structure where you sought assistance in getting in touch

21 with HVO with a view to interviewing the participants in the action at

22 Stupni Do. Do you recall testifying to that effect today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In connection with this, did you again from the higher-up

25 structures down to you receive any response in terms of what the HVO

Page 16513

1 position was with regard to this request of yours? Did you -- did you

2 receive any feedback as to whether the HVO had anything to do with the

3 fact that you didn't receive any response? You said today that you didn't

4 receive any feedback. The information you got, was it to the effect that

5 they got in touch with the HVO but never got an answer from them, or you

6 simply did not receive any response from your superior structure?

7 A. If -- okay, if I can clarify. As a military policeman, what I was

8 after was to interview people involved in the attack which I was never

9 able to do. I did get feedback from the BH command legal. I believe his

10 last name was Koet, K-o-e-t, and he had -- I think there was two letters

11 that we got from him outlining his attempts and the results of

12 communicating with the HVO. I remember seeing two memos from him, an

13 initial one. I think it was with the HVO liaison officer, Lukic, or --

14 and with a Mr. Banik [phoen], if memory serves. And it -- it had dealt

15 with information about the attack from the HVO side of the house. I

16 remember on -- I remember reading in one that they had -- they had

17 confirmed that Zijad Radic [phoen] was the senior member for the attack

18 and there were two members of the attacking force that were shooting at

19 civilians, if I recall correctly, but I was not able to -- they weren't

20 available to be interviewed. I remember seeing these two memos. I do

21 believe I attached it to one of my reports, did I not?

22 Q. Let us not go into any details concerning documents. Based on

23 what you've just explained to us now, can we conclude that the HVO,

24 through the contacts with UNPROFOR and the UN command, reacted positively

25 and furnished at least some information relevant for the investigation at

Page 16514

1 the time? Is that right?

2 A. Would I say by providing the name of Rajic saying that he was the

3 HVO commander and that the fact that there was two individuals that they

4 had -- were shooting at civilians was, and that's why I think I attached

5 them to the report. Notwithstanding that, it -- it wasn't my basic

6 request from the memo that I had submitted, which was what I was after.

7 It was to interview people. But there was communication definitely on a

8 higher-up scale.

9 Q. Except for the two memos you mention, you have no knowledge as to

10 any further contacts between the UN command and the corresponding HVO

11 commands concerning this event; is that right?

12 A. No. That would have been way over my head.

13 Q. Thank you. Let us clarify the following: In your statements,

14 including the statement you gave earlier and the reports, it is quite

15 evident that whilst you were investigating the events at Stupni Do, you

16 were aware of the fact that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was also

17 conducting an investigation; is that right?

18 A. The BiH were doing an investigation on Stupni Do, is that what

19 you're saying?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. I believe that's right, because some of my witnesses were saying

22 statements to BiH officials. That was one of the reasons why whenever we

23 interviewed a witness we had to make sure that what they said to us was

24 voluntary and not anything that they were told to say to us. We made that

25 clear at the -- at each interview.

Page 16515

1 Q. Of course throughout this process it was quite clear to you that

2 the BH army was also conducting an investigation and that they had some

3 knowledge of these events. You confirmed this.

4 Did the army provide you with any information concerning the

5 results of their investigation, or did they at least give you some

6 significant information relevant to the investigation you conducted?

7 A. Unfortunately a lot of times the people I was talking to, you

8 know, I wouldn't know exactly who they were or -- unless it was written in

9 my report, but if I could get -- find out where survivors were by talking

10 to these officials and they led me to these Stupni Do villagers, I would

11 have taken that information and used it.

12 The gentleman I spoke to at Dabravine, he was, I'm sure, the

13 official I got the list of deceased from, and the list of living. And I

14 don't know whether he was a military or civilian, to be truthful.

15 Q. Very well. As far as you know, you didn't receive, or at least

16 you personally and your team, any final results of the investigation

17 conducted by the BH army; is that right?

18 A. No. At one time I was trying to get reports from them, but BiH

19 wouldn't give it to me.

20 Q. Let us move on to the investigation or the steps taken by the HVO.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown Exhibit

22 06091?

23 Q. Or, rather, Mr. Witness, you have the folder in front you. Could

24 you please look at the first document there. I will have questions for

25 you concerning this document. And could you please read it. It consists

Page 16516

1 of only two or three sentences.

2 Let us first look at the date. It was written on the 25th of

3 October and signed by Zarko Tole. We see his function written here. He

4 was the chief of the Main Staff of the HVO?

5 A. Okay. We're looking at 363, the last three digits? Is that the

6 one you're referring to?

7 Q. No. No. Oh, yes, yes. That's right. That's the first page.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: That's the page of

9 the -- that's the number of the page.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. From this document it follows that the chief of the Main Staff

12 sent a letter on the 25th of October to the commander in Vares asking for

13 accurate information concerning the events in the village of Stupni Do to

14 be delivered. In the next sentence we can see that he already has some

15 information because the commander of the Norwegian battalion stated that

16 the fate of 200 civilians was unknown. "Submit detailed information on

17 what happened in Stupni Do."

18 Based on what you knew from before about the HVO conduct and

19 investigation based on the contacts you had higher up, doesn't this letter

20 show that the Main Staff reacted by seeking additional information from

21 their own units in order to take any further action if need be?

22 Do you agree with me that this request has to do with the events

23 we're discussing?

24 A. You're -- like the document I've never seen, so you just want me

25 to look at this document and -- and say this is -- this is a true

Page 16517

1 document? Because I don't have any knowledge about it.

2 Q. No. No. Let this be clear. I quite understand that you have

3 probably not seen the document ever, and I'm absolutely not asking you to

4 confirm the authenticity of this document, because you can have no

5 knowledge of that.

6 My question for you is: In view of the fact that you were

7 involved in the investigation on Stupni Do, and in view of the fact that

8 you had information about the HVO actions since your command had contacts

9 with the HVO earlier on that we referred to, would you agree with me that

10 when you read this letter, on face value it shows that the HVO was taking

11 steps to get more information about these events, because the Main Staff,

12 which was not stationed in Vares, sought information about the events that

13 were the subject of your investigation? Would you agree with that?

14 A. Okay. So I understand that. Like you're doing your part of the

15 investigation, you're trying to find out what happened to -- and that's

16 what this reflects. And I can understand that, that you'd be going after

17 that information yourself. As the BiH were going after the same

18 information from their people, you would be going after that information

19 from your people too. Yeah, I guess that's what you're saying.

20 Q. Correct. Does it not appear that this letter has to do with these

21 very events in Stupni Do, because the letter refers to events in Stupni

22 Do? Does it not also show that the Main Staff, too, did not have any

23 information about what had actually transpired at Stupni Do, because the

24 information flow was poor, the communications were poor? Does this not

25 show that the HVO was taking steps to obtain information on this? Would

Page 16518

1 you not agree with what I'm saying? You had occasion to see HVO

2 documents.

3 A. I guess, yeah. They were getting -- trying to get information on

4 the Stupni Do incident from what I gather at this letter. And whether

5 they knew what happened at Stupni Do or if they didn't know what happen at

6 Stupni Do, I can't tell you that, but just by the appearance the letter

7 they were going after information.

8 Q. Of course you can't tell that. Thank you. In your statement you

9 also said that on the first day you went to Stupni Do with your team in

10 order to take the first steps in your investigation. Shortly after you,

11 and you even said that you were in a hurry because with you there were

12 some news crews who wanted to enter the village and film it; is that

13 right?

14 A. Yes. We --

15 Q. You need not go into any details. There were foreign news crews

16 that entered the village, is that right?

17 A. Yes, once we were able to pass the check-point.

18 Q. Of course. And roughly speaking, the news crews entered the

19 village several hours after you; is that right?

20 A. No. They were in the convoy with me. What happened is, once we

21 got through the HVO check-point we went to the village and everyone parked

22 in the field, and General Ramsay did an interview for the press people,

23 and I was talking to the BritBat commander there. Then once I told him

24 what we wanted to do, I had the BritBat commander, I think Hunter -- Roy

25 Hunter, lead the way and the press people were coming behind us, and

Page 16519

1 that's how it took place.

2 Q. So the journalists went in, right, with you. I didn't know that.

3 But undoubtedly the cameramen filmed a lot of footage there that was then

4 transmitted throughout the world through their respective systems; is that

5 right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Would you please look at another document in the folder I provided

8 you with. This is P 06104. It's a handwritten document, and you have the

9 English translation of it. It's also very short. It was written in the

10 forward command post at Citluk and addressed and sent to Vares. It was

11 signed by the chief of the Main Staff. It's a very brief request wherein

12 he says: "We have received a confirmation by the HTV," and HTV is the

13 Croatian national television, "that they have footage of the massacre in

14 Stupni Do which they had received through exchange with foreign agencies.

15 "In order to take a correct stance, I'm demanding the truth about

16 this event so that the HVO Main Staff may take the proper position."

17 Would you agree that evidently the Main Staff learnt also on --

18 from the public television broadcaster that something had happen at Stupni

19 Do because the HTV, the Croatian national television, broadcast footage at

20 the time you were there?

21 MR. FLYNN: If I may, Your Honour. I know that the question

22 appears innocuous, but I don't think he can assume what the Main Staff in

23 Mostar saw or what they did not saw -- see. The letter suggests that they

24 had confirmation that the Croatian TV had footage, but there is no

25 indication that the Main Staff saw it. So perhaps it might be possible to

Page 16520

1 rephrase.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I partly agree with the objection.

3 The fact of the matter is, however, that the witness confirmed that

4 television crews entered the village at the same time he did. The fact of

5 the matter is that the news reached Europe very quickly, and it transpires

6 from the first sentence of this document that the HTV confirmed possession

7 of the footage on the massacre to the chief of the Main Staff, and the HTV

8 could not possibly have received the footage from anyone else but the news

9 crews that were there on the ground.

10 I believe Their Honours are aware of the fact that news agencies

11 exchange footage and news in the matter of minutes.

12 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] For your information, Your

13 Honours, the first news from Stupni Do did not reach the world on the 27th

14 when the news crews -- these news crews went down there. The BBC was

15 there even before. Thus the 27th of October footage was not the first one

16 to reach the world. I believe the first footage dated from the 26th or

17 even earlier.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I don't think we need to prove the

19 fact that the news was transmitted, because we have the witness saying now

20 that he was there with the journalists at the time.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, with respect to the

22 objection raised by the Prosecution, apparently, but you've acknowledged

23 it yourself, apparently the witness is not in a position to give us any

24 assessment about the position taken by the Main Staff. So please rephrase

25 your question.

Page 16521

1 We have to remember that what's important in this handwritten

2 document is the second paragraph.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may add a point. This paper here is dated

4 October 25 the witness came to Stupni Do on October 27. How can the

5 victim say anything about something that happened before he'd even been

6 there? You will probably have a good explanation. Thank you.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have an explanation, and

8 General Praljak provided part of it. The footage filmed by the

9 journalists who were there on the same day as the witness, on the 27th,

10 was not the first footage to be actually transmitted worldwide. It was,

11 rather, on the 25th that we had -- as a result of the exchange of news

12 agencies --

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No, no. There was no

14 footage on the 25th. There was a radio report on that. I believe that

15 this has to be clarified when we're talking about who reported or informed

16 whom.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I was about to come to that point.

18 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It is also a bit difficult to

19 understand who is interrogating and examining whom right now. Does

20 Mr. Praljak cross-examine Mr. Kovacic or -- because you seem to be in

21 contradiction there, and it is a bit confusing for the Chamber.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel, I

23 believe that evidently General Praljak wanted to assist me by providing

24 additional information that I may have overlooked.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Honourable Judge Trechsel,

Page 16522

1 even if there were 50 lawyers in the courtroom they would not be able to

2 reach an agreement about all the information we have. They would have to

3 actually spend 24 hours a day together. I would have to give him my brain

4 in order to be clear on all the points. I merely wanted to clarify this

5 issue.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I will not be going back to this

7 document. There is this one piece of information relevant with relation

8 to the document, and it is up to Their Honours to decide whether the

9 document should be in evidence or not. We have other ways of introducing

10 this document into evidence. It is up to you, Your Honours. I believe it

11 was important for the witness to comment on this document just as he

12 commented on other documents that he never saw, like, for instance, the UN

13 document he was shown among the last documents that he commented.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, I have a question

15 for you, not regarding this document but the one before signed by

16 Mr. Tole.

17 I'm curious because of the heading of this document. I can see,

18 "Union of the Republics of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herceg-Bosna." I

19 can't remember seeing this type of heading before, so what is that, this

20 union of republics?

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your -- President, if I can remind

22 you, that's the time when the name Community Herceg-Bosna was changed into

23 Republic of Herceg-Bosna. That had to do with international negotiations

24 going on at the time, and the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna used the

25 terminology that cropped up at those negotiations. Sometimes there are

Page 16523

1 inconsistencies that we believe are mainly due to translations produced

2 during those negotiations. You will find several documents dating from

3 October of that year where this term "Union" is used next to Croatian

4 Republic of Herceg-Bosna on a par.

5 I hope that I have explained this sufficiently for the time being,

6 and maybe we will be able to clarify it further through other documents.

7 Q. Witness, I would like to spend some more time on your second

8 report of the 22nd March. For the record, it's P 08121.

9 Without going into too many details, on page 1, item 1, you

10 enumerated the names of certain direct perpetrators as you were able to

11 collect them through the various interviews that you told us about. Do

12 you know whether this report, or at least some information contained

13 therein, had been conveyed to the HVO through contacts at your level or

14 maybe at a higher level?

15 A. Okay. Yeah, the interpreter was -- you were coming through

16 talking more than the interpreter was, but I think you were saying that

17 the -- my reports went to HVO officials. Do I know if that happened? No,

18 I don't know if that happened, sir. That wouldn't have been up to me. If

19 such a thing happened, it would have been over my head. Once the report

20 left me, it went to BH authorities, and they would decide who gets the

21 reports.

22 Q. Very well. While we're there, let us clarify one more point that

23 was mentioned today. Based on your interviews with the victims, I'd like

24 to ask you the following: Do you agree, and is it correct, that the

25 participants in that event, the alleged perpetrators of crimes, would come

Page 16524

1 or had come, according to interviewees, from Kiseljak? That was one place

2 mentioned by the interviewees as the origin of the perpetrators. Some of

3 them at least.

4 A. Yes, that's correct. There were --

5 Q. The next place mentioned was Kakanj. Some perpetrators seemed to

6 have come from Kakanj.

7 A. Yeah, I believe that was one of the places mentioned too. And --

8 Q. All right. And the next place mentioned was Mir village, not far

9 from Stupni Do.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Some interviewees mentioned men from Vares.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Could you by any chance remember some details about the men from

14 Vares? Were they supposed to be from Vares town or the broader area of

15 the municipality of Vares?

16 A. I don't know if they were from the town or the broader an area.

17 Only that the witnesses were able to just -- I don't know if the ones were

18 from Vares, but some of them recognised their names or their voices

19 because they were employed with them or went to school with them earlier

20 in life. There was like a personal knowledge.

21 Q. Thank you. One more thing in conclusion. You described to us the

22 whole process of your work, the distribution of the workload, the crew

23 that you had, the resources that you disposed of, and from all that it was

24 clear that you were under a number of constraints. The situation was far

25 from ideal. But it's obvious that you did undertake everything within

Page 16525

1 your power to do that job in the best possible way; is that correct?

2 A. That's the way that we're trained.

3 Q. That's right. In view of the number of the victims and the

4 circumstances under which the crime occurred, you as a military -- as an

5 experienced military policeman, would you say that if this investigation

6 were conducted under normal circumstances in your country that the method

7 of work, the number of people engaged, the resources used would be

8 significantly better, including appropriate forensic experts, medical

9 officers, the site visit would have lasted a lot longer? Could you just

10 in a few words tell us about this comparison or possible differences

11 between the way it would have been done in your country and the way it was

12 actually done there?

13 A. I guess the easiest way to explain is there is -- the MP platoon

14 over there, we didn't have no resources whatsoever nor -- no criminal

15 investigation kit, no video cameras, no tape recorders, no cameras, no

16 nothing. Everything that we used we obtained by ourselves not through --

17 like the video cameras weren't from the UN or any other detachment. We

18 obtained them from -- for example, we obtained them from CanBat 2 in

19 Visoko. It wasn't part of their military. It was -- these cameras were

20 set up for use by soldiers to film themselves to send home videos. So I

21 had two of my people go over and sign them up -- sign them out and we used

22 them for the rest of our tour. We kept them signed out. We didn't have

23 no equipment. Whereas in Canada you would have had complete criminal -- a

24 team just set up for forensics, I imagine, all the resources, I guess, a

25 big city would have. I don't know much about that to be truthful, but I

Page 16526

1 imagine if the equipment is at a police officer's disposal he should be

2 able to use it.

3 So it was night and day if that's what you're getting at, between

4 the resources available to us in, you know, Canada, say.

5 Q. Would you agree that the most critical link in that chain was the

6 absence of post-mortems and the lack of autopsy reports and other

7 expertise that results from post-mortems? Did you as an investigator feel

8 that there is no compensating for this lack -- for this lacking component

9 in any way that would be remotely appropriate? The footage filmed by the

10 cameras intended for home videos did not remotely make up for that. Would

11 you agree?

12 A. If what you're saying is the -- the equipment that we didn't have

13 or anything, none of that really mattered to me. The only thing that I

14 was after was interviews with witnesses. And the more the merrier. That

15 way you get cooperation. So as long as I got those interviews I wasn't

16 too concerned about the rest of the information, you know, the evidence

17 and that type of thing. What I needed was people that had first-hand

18 knowledge of what had happened there, and the more cooperation I got, then

19 the better. So just because we didn't have the equipment wasn't vital in

20 my mind. What was vital was to get people who -- who were harmed, their

21 statements, their interviews done.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. We have to make a

23 break because the tape is running out.

24 We are going to have a 20-minute break and we will start,

25 therefore, if 20 minutes' time.

Page 16527

1 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The hearing is

4 resume.

5 Before I give the floor back Mr. Kovacic, the registrar has to

6 give some clarifications on an IC number. We might forget if we don't do

7 it now. You have the floor.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Just one very

9 quick clarification for the transcript and the record. Today we -- I have

10 assigned an IC number, 513, to the list submit the by 5D for Witness

11 Patrick van der Weijden. The -- in fact, the list was already in evidence

12 under the Exhibit number IC 387. Therefore, the IC 513 exhibit is still

13 available for the next list.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for your information I

16 just have one more question. I believe Mr. Praljak has several more, and

17 then my colleague, Ms. Alaburic, will take over.

18 Q. Witness, I have just one more question concerning your last

19 answer. Would you agree that in a professional police investigation of

20 any police force in the world material, forensic evidence, is more

21 important than witness statements, than witness testimony?

22 A. Before we answer that, could I just go back to a question that you

23 had asked previously? I don't want to mislead you. And that was when you

24 asked about the soldiers from Vares, and I might have given you an

25 impression that there was lots of soldiers from -- HVO soldiers from Vares

Page 16528

1 that took place in the attack, and I racked my brain while we had the

2 break, and I definitely can say they were from Mir. But as for Vares, I

3 remember one person saying that he worked with a guy that worked in the

4 mine at Vares-Majdan or like that, something like that, but for the lie of

5 me I can't recall, you know, a bunch of them or anything. In fact, when

6 they are stranded out in the bush there when they came to the check-point

7 the locals there had kind of helped them out.

8 As for this last question, first-hand eyewitness evidence is, in

9 my book, the best, especially when it is corroborated by other witnesses,

10 and that supports all the forensic evidence, although I agree with you

11 that DNA evidence is -- certainly puts people in certain places, and the

12 same as fingerprints. So, you know, definitely useful. But when you have

13 witnesses that give evidence, what could be more --

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. -- Mr. Draper, I would like to put a question

15 in this context. You have also not really answered another part of a

16 question of Mr. Kovacic, Mr. Draper, and that was the question as to what

17 defects does the investigation have due to the absence of a proper

18 post-mortem and autopsies?

19 THE WITNESS: It -- the absence would -- wouldn't give the exact

20 cause of death. Is that what you're getting at? That I agree with that,

21 yes.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm not talking in general terms. I'm talking

23 about your investigation. Did it suffer? Does it show weaknesses due to

24 the absence or the lateness of autopsy or post-mortem? I believe that was

25 the question Mr. Kovacic had posed.

Page 16529

1 THE WITNESS: It -- it would -- it would be better if the

2 autopsies were done as soon as possible, if -- yeah, certainly. The same

3 as all evidence. You know, if we were right there right at the -- the

4 outset to get all the evidence and could account for it, that would be

5 great too.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But do you -- do you feel that this is a weakness

7 of your report, that there must be -- one must read it with caution

8 because in the case of this investigation there was no immediate

9 post-mortem and autopsy but it was delayed, and maybe not up to the

10 highest standards of forensic medicine?

11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it wouldn't be up to the highest standards

12 of -- of that notwithstanding.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, following up on the

14 question put by Judge Trechsel, and I don't think my question is going to

15 interfere at all with the cross-examination.

16 Witness, I do have some knowledge in this field, and I was really

17 struck, looking at the footage but also looking at the photographs, but

18 especially at the video footage. I noted this: We saw some bodies,

19 charred bodies spread out throughout the village at some places. I really

20 watched closely where they were and what was around the bodies, and I

21 asked myself this technical question, and I know you are a specialist so

22 you might be able to answer my question: The bodies obviously were

23 carbonised. They were burned. How? We don't know. However, on several

24 occasions I saw that around the bodies there was no trace of flames, of

25 fire, of anything burnt. You see the body, the charred body, and next to

Page 16530

1 it there's no trace at all of fire or of flames.

2 There could be three ways. There was a shell, incendiary shell

3 that fell next to the body, or it could have been sprinkled with fuel and

4 then burned, or you use a flame thrower. But at least in the last two

5 hypotheses, the space around the body should show traces of fire or

6 flames, of being burnt. And on several occasions on the video footage you

7 can't see anything, so I asked myself, the bodies we saw, were they not

8 transported on the location whilst they were burnt elsewhere? So hence

9 the technical questions raised by Mr. Kovacic and my colleague.

10 When you carried out your investigation, did you look into that

11 question, namely how the bodies were burned and how it came that around

12 the bodies there was no trace of flames or fire or incendiary material?

13 Do you have a technical answer to provide?

14 THE WITNESS: As you had mentioned, you kind of indicated I was a

15 specialist at the beginning of your statement, and I'm not whatsoever an

16 expert in any of that type of thing. The bodies could have been moved

17 there. They -- they -- it could -- any one of the scenarios you said. I

18 don't know. I couldn't give you an explanation. Whereas through the

19 interviews we had there were accounts of these people being dragged into

20 the homes that were already on fire. So that's why the -- the eyewitness

21 accounts were ever so important in this investigation. But forensic

22 evidence would definitely, I assume, tell you how the bodies were burnt,

23 if there were any accelerants used or that type of thing, sir.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We won't go

Page 16531

1 any more with this topic of the importance of forensics in investigations.

2 Just one more thing. We saw, among other things, victims here that are

3 bearing traces of one or two gunshot wounds, and it transpires from their

4 autopsy reports, whatever their value, how they sustained them.

5 If there is gunpowder on the wound, it could be established with

6 the naked eye whether the person was shot point blank or from a greater

7 distance, and that would help us establish whether the victim had been

8 killed as a result of a conflict or executed at close range.

9 Would you agree that it would have been good if we had such

10 forensic data? Would you agree that such forensic evidence would be

11 extremely welcome, bearing in mind all the evidence provided by the

12 witnesses?

13 A. I --

14 Q. Sorry, we have little time. Would you just briefly answer with a

15 yes or no, or maybe "I don't know," if you don't know, because we really

16 don't have time for long explanations. Did I give you an example which

17 shows that forensic evidence was important in this case, at least in some

18 examples?

19 A. I'm quite sure you're right, sir. That's why the bodies were

20 burnt, to get rid of the forensic evidence, if you know what I mean? If

21 there was forensic evidence like gunpowder burns, you know by burning the

22 bodies it kind of disappears. But for -- for the bodies that weren't

23 burnt, yeah, definitely.

24 Q. Yes. Right. Very well.

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would have more questions about

Page 16532

1 this, but in view of the time constraints I'm going to let my client

2 continue the examination.

3 Cross-examination by the Accused Praljak:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Draper. I would appreciate

5 short answers, and if you want to give a longer explanation, could you

6 please indicate that to me.

7 I took part in that war, and when we look at photographs like this

8 we must understand that that's part of those things that war brings, and

9 we have to face them.

10 You said that from your information from various sources the

11 village was defended by 36 members of the BH army. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, approximately 36. That's correct, sir.

13 Q. Thank you. From your scouting of the village, did you observe any

14 trenches around the village?

15 A. We didn't go outside the village just due to safety concerns, for

16 the team's safety itself. So, no, I didn't go through any trenches, sir.

17 But through --

18 Q. Sorry, sorry. Could you -- could you please answer again, because

19 my -- my headset was turned off for a second. I'm sorry.

20 A. Okay. I'll repeat my answer. No, we didn't go and visit any of

21 the trench areas because of -- for safety concerns. It was a little bit

22 too far out of the village, and we wouldn't be able to have the security

23 provided with us, but I -- so to answer your question, I personally

24 didn't, no. We were there, sir, if that's what you mean. Defenders said

25 there were trenches as we were manning them.

Page 16533

1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know based on the interviews that you

2 made that during the HVO attack on that defended village whether shooting

3 came from houses as well as trenches? Are you aware that houses also held

4 some combat positions?

5 A. Quite possibly, because I know there was BiH defenders protecting

6 the shelters where inhabitants were protected.

7 Q. Thank you. Similarly, you noted quite clearly that 193 persons

8 from that village survived what we call the massacre at Stupni Do. Is

9 that right, 193 persons left that village alive?

10 A. Quite possible -- yeah, right around that number. There might

11 have been a few more that weren't on the list that I first received.

12 Q. In your report on page 17 of the Croatian version, there's

13 something I want to read and then you will comment. It says: "Most HVO

14 members were horrified when they had heard what had happened at Stupni Do.

15 Nobody had told them about it before. The soldiers brought some food and

16 treated them kindly."

17 This is a reference to the large group of refugees received at

18 that HVO check-point.

19 You say: "Two UNPROFOR vehicles arrived, but the HVO prevented

20 them from being evacuated because they were afraid. They were fearing --

21 they were fearing a BH army attack."

22 Is it true what you said in this report that these soldiers were

23 horrified? One. And secondly, is it true that HVO soldiers received

24 refugees at their check-point and later enabled them to cross over to

25 BH-held territory?

Page 16534

1 A. Yeah, I recall that. That was from some of the witnesses and that

2 group of refugees that arrived at that check-point that was manned by

3 local HVO, and they were, I recall from the interview, they were -- didn't

4 really realise what had gone on, weren't aware of it and what happened,

5 and they were shocked at the events, and I believed dressed some of the

6 wounded and give them some bread and some -- along those lines, what they

7 had.

8 Q. Thank you very much. On page 13 of your report you say that based

9 on some information you received later you learnt of something that was

10 found at Stupni Do, and it was a sign which had the letters HOS there and

11 an emblem of a chequerboard, red and white squares, and beneath the sign

12 it said, "For homeland ready." Have I quoted your words well?

13 A. Yes, more than likely. I remember that was probably on the 12th

14 of November, 1993, when we had a return trip to Stupni Do and we were

15 trying to identify all the body locations and the names of those people,

16 and it was found on the ground at that time. Is this the one -- I'm sure

17 you read it. Is this the one where Master Corporal McKee says that it was

18 quite noticeable and he would have noticed it last time around?

19 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know that the HOS was not under the

20 command of the Croatian Defence Council? Are you aware of this?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know that these units were either an independent military

23 force or are under the command of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. From the information I gathered from interviews they were under

25 the command of Colonel Ivica Rajic from Kiseljak.

Page 16535

1 Q. I didn't receive interpretation. I'm not denying that they may

2 have been under the command of Ivica Rajic, but they were not under the

3 command of the HVO, but never mind. I should like to put another question

4 to you, and could we have that video on standby, the one that we already

5 watched. I would like it to be stopped at some sections.

6 When on the 27th of October you entered the village for the first

7 time, you inspected the village carefully and thoroughly; is that right?

8 A. Not myself. I had Master Corporal Scott McKee do the crime scene

9 processing so he would have gone through it very closely, whereas I did a

10 general walkthrough of the village to see what was what. I myself did not

11 go through each crime scene processing it.

12 Q. Thank you very much. I'm interested in the following, Mr. Draper:

13 Any one of the four TV crews, there were also security officers there,

14 Mr. McKee, and you, all of you there were able to find 16 corpses; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yeah. One of which that didn't appear to look like -- well, we

17 didn't know if it was an animal or human. But we treated it as a human.

18 And ...

19 Q. Fine. So there could have been less than 16, but you definitely

20 found 16 corpses.

21 Can you explain the Honourable Judges in what way you were able to

22 find 22 more bodies at a later stage, thus arriving at the total number of

23 37? This remains an enigma, a mystery. If you entered the village, you

24 inspected it thoroughly and photographed it and established that there

25 were 16 bodies. In what way were you subsequently able to arrive at 37

Page 16536

1 persons who were killed at Stupni Do through whichever procedures you

2 used? And I don't know which sort of procedures these could have been.

3 How is this possible?

4 A. After the 16 bodies were done and we left the area in early

5 November, BiH authorities, I guess, mounted an offensive or whatever and

6 took over the Stupni Do area. And once it was back under their control,

7 the villagers were able to go back to their village, and of course the

8 relatives and the victims knew where people were killed, and -- plus do a

9 more thorough search for bodies, and that's where the rest were

10 discovered, because while we were there we did not shift through any of

11 the burnt-down houses. Most of the bodies were found underneath debris

12 from buildings that had collapsed in on them. And as -- with the more

13 interviews I did, the more corroboration I could get from people that had

14 found these bodies. For example --

15 Q. My apologies, sir. Excuse me. Could we now have that video clip

16 shown, and we will see that there are quite a few burnt houses there, but

17 there are no ruins there. We will stop at some sections, and you will

18 tell me which ruins you were supposed to shift through or sift through to

19 find these additional corpses.

20 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have the video

21 played?

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, the video,

23 please.

24 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] The first one. The long

25 clip.

Page 16537

1 MR. FLYNN: Which part of the first one are we talking about, the

2 part with the bodies, the crime scenes, or are we talking about the part

3 with the damage to the buildings?

4 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Both of them. I will ask

5 them to be stopped at some points to put questions.

6 Q. Sir, please let me know when you see the ruin that you were

7 supposed to go through where you were unable to see dead bodies

8 beforehand. We can see that the houses were burned.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: Stop there.

11 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is this a ruin?

13 A. This is scene 1 where around -- so you're asked after the 22

14 bodies that --

15 Q. Sir, please. I'm the one leading this. You're telling me that

16 this is a ruin. We can't go into all the details, repeating that this is

17 scene 1. You are here to assist us.

18 You are supposed to say, "This is a ruin. We didn't have time to

19 go through the ruin, and there may have been a dead body left beneath

20 there." So please can you confirm for me the following: Is this a ruin?

21 A. I'm not quite following you. The -- I cannot tell you what houses

22 or what ruins the rest of the bodies were in. Only the people that found

23 the bodies can do that for you. I wasn't there when it happen. So how

24 can I say what building they were in? I would just be guessing or

25 assuming.

Page 16538

1 I can point out on the map that I made out, but those buildings

2 and how they relate to the ruins on this film, I never lived there before,

3 so I won't be able to say exactly which ruin the bodies were recovered in.

4 Only the people that lived there and found the bodies would be able to do

5 that, I would think, sir.

6 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draper. The military police of the UN

7 international forces went into a village, the village we're dealing with

8 here. You were investigating there until the month of March 1994. You

9 sign a report. You're talking about, at first, 16 persons plus some

10 additional corpses.

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Praljak, I must ask you to keep to the facts.

12 There is no way that this witness has been investigating from the moment

13 he started on 27 October 1993 until the month of March 1994. He was not

14 there from A to B. Maybe it's a difficulty of the translation, but it

15 gives a wrong impression. He did not stay several months there, he told

16 us.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Honourable Judge, I --

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I apologise. But he was not in Stupni Do all the

20 time. That is what I wanted to say.

21 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I didn't say that. Can the

22 basis be accepted? We have the fact that four TV crews and a group of

23 international professional police investigators visited a village that was

24 burned but was not in ruins, and one did not need to have excavators

25 there. One could see dead bodies, both those burned and unburned, and

Page 16539

1 then they established that there were 16 bodies. The rest is propaganda.

2 This was used in the BH press, who increased the number up to 100, and

3 here they increased it to 37.

4 I'm not trying to downplay the events. I only wish to arrive at

5 the truth of what actually happened and at the accurate figures. How

6 could one get from the figure of 16 to 37? Where were 22 bodies then?

7 We're not talking about possibly two bodies that they might have

8 overlooked. These were 22 bodies that were additionally listed as Stupni

9 Do victims.

10 Q. That's why, Mr. Draper, I'm asking you to indicate for me here

11 where is that ruin which held so much rubble that you had to dig under

12 there to find 22 persons? But I may move on. I will move on to other

13 matters.

14 Could we play the video.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could you stop there,

17 please.

18 Q. Evidently we could see a woman on the right-hand side wearing a

19 military shirt and a military jacket. Is that true, Mr. Draper? Is that

20 what we were able to see there?

21 A. I can't tell from here -- from here, but, yeah, there was one that

22 had a military top on.

23 Q. The third woman whose photograph we did not see, who was between

24 the two women in the background, was she not also wearing a military

25 jacket? You may know that or not. One of the two women we can see is

Page 16540

1 wearing a military jacket. The other one isn't. What about the third

2 woman who was killed there? Did she have a military uniform on or not?

3 If you don't know, tell us, and we can move on.

4 A. I'm not seeing anything on my screen other than black. Have you

5 got a different. There was a flash of --

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Can I suggest that rather than taking this video

7 where one doesn't see anything, I didn't even distinguish a woman, you did

8 back, Mr. Praljak, for your question to the pictures, and the picture

9 00357599 would be the good one, I suggest.

10 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] 599. Yes, please. Could we

11 please have photograph 00357599.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Praljak.

13 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Could we have the

14 photograph? 6116.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The photograph Mr. Praljak is

16 showing you to is 113.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] No. 7599. That's the

18 photograph. Could you enlarge it, please?

19 Q. Do you see, sir, that the woman who was killed and who is on the

20 right-hand side is wearing a T-shirt and a jacket that are part of a

21 military uniform?

22 A. The vest definitely looks military. T-shirt, it looks kind of

23 greenish, military greenish.

24 Q. Mr. Draper, you're saying "it seems." Let us be specific. Is

25 this the top part of a military uniform, the T-shirt and the jacket?

Page 16541

1 You're a professional officer?

2 A. It looks like one, sir, but -- but maybe, yeah, it looks like one.

3 Q. Very well. The woman whose had head we see leaning forward and

4 who was killed there, was she wearing a military uniform or not, to your

5 knowledge?

6 A. I can't tell from this photo, sir.

7 Q. Very well.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: As long as we have the picture, there is fabric

9 with a kind of a flower pattern on the lower part of the woman to the

10 right in the picture. Can you tell us what this is?

11 THE WITNESS: The lower part of her clothing?

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes, where her left hand is resting on.

13 THE WITNESS: Part of her lower part of -- I don't know. It looks

14 like a dress to me.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Or a skirt?


17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Yes. Thank you.

18 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] In my view, it would be a

19 ribbon perhaps covering that part of the body, or a handkerchief or

20 something. But let's move on.

21 Q. Do you know that according to the statements here a pistol and a

22 hand grenade were found in the cellar? Were you aware of the fact that

23 according to some statements they had a hand grenade with them?

24 A. Not in the statements I have, no, I'm not. Or the interviews I

25 did.

Page 16542

1 Q. I have one strictly military question. When gunfire is opened

2 from houses and positions are being taken, if somebody in the house is

3 wearing a military uniform would it not be only a natural reaction and

4 part of the professional conduct of armies that upon entering a house and

5 seeing a military uniform the soldier concerned would open fire

6 automatically? Therefore, a soldier entering a house and a cellar in the

7 course of fighting, upon seeing a person -- or upon seeing a military

8 uniform would instinctively open fire?

9 A. Are you talking about these people, this person that's there and

10 the other two ladies? Like I --

11 Q. Sir, my question is quite simple. As a member of the Canadian

12 army, a professional, when you attended trainings concerning capturing

13 features including houses, because I suppose it is quite ordinary for --

14 sometimes for military positions to be held in houses, is it not natural

15 for the people present in these houses would come out bearing a white

16 cloth and surrendering themselves, or else soldiers capturing these

17 positions enter the house, they smash the doors and open fire without

18 asking whether anyone is in the house, because presumably, had anyone been

19 in the house, they would have surrendered. Was this not part of your

20 professional training?

21 A. No. I'm a military policeman, and my training is, you know,

22 before you -- you --

23 Q. Very well. Thank you. You don't know anything about this. Very

24 well. Let's move on.

25 Could you play the video, please.

Page 16543

1 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, this picture is disturbing

2 indeed, and I had put the question myself to you during the

3 examination-in-chief, and I believe we must pay attention to what the

4 Accused Praljak is currently telling us. My question is as follows:

5 Based on your experience in Stupni Do, in that region where the armed

6 conflict was taking place, were people, was the population aware that by

7 wearing a military uniform they could be mistaken for combatants? Were

8 they aware of that, first? And in order to avoid being targeted, would

9 people prefer not to wear military uniforms? I hope you've understood my

10 questions. If not, I'm ready to repeat it.

11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. If I was in that situation or if that was my

12 wife, she definitely wouldn't be wearing camouflage, because, you know,

13 walking around in a war zone wearing camouflage would make anybody a

14 target, I would assume. But I've never been at war and this is only

15 assumption on my part, but I definitely wouldn't want to be a civilian --

16 or if I wasn't part of a military organisation in a war zone, I wouldn't

17 want to be wearing camouflage of any type or have any military attire

18 around me. Does that answer your question, sir?

19 Like for me as a military policeman, we're trained to not shoot

20 and ask questions later. We have to make sure there is a threat to life

21 before we draw the weapon. Whereas a soldier soldier, it might be

22 different, but I was trained as a military policeman, not an infantry

23 soldier.

24 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

Page 16544

1 Q. Our time is almost up. One more question. These sacks that we

2 see on the left-hand side, did you see any windows in the cellar that

3 could have been used as an opening out of which one could fire? Did you

4 notice if the cellar had any windows?

5 A. Through witness statements there was a girl hiding underneath the

6 legs of these three women, and when the HVO soldiers left after killing

7 them, she slipped out between them and went out a window in this room.

8 That would have been Mufida Likic. She was already shot in the leg.

9 Q. Please, permit me to tell you that you have to listen to my

10 question. I don't know how it is being interpreted to you.

11 In -- to your knowledge, did this cellar have a window, and could

12 these sacks have possibly been used as part of the protection normally

13 used in fortified positions? That was my question.

14 A. I can't tell you that for sure, sir. But they're --

15 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. I would like the video to be

16 played because we could see some shells there, and perhaps we could

17 continue that tomorrow.

18 Let me now put this question to you: These 22 dead bodies that

19 were found later to have allegedly been killed at Stupni Do, was this

20 something that you arrived at based solely on the information you received

21 solely from the BH army? Therefore, the 22 dead bodies that you did not

22 detect at the time you were there, did you infer that they were there

23 exclusively on the basis of the information provided to you by the BH army

24 after they had captured both Vares and Stupni Do?

25 [Videotape played]

Page 16545

1 THE WITNESS: The information was provided by the villagers

2 themselves.

3 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]

4 Q. When? Since what date did you start receiving information about

5 possible additional victims from Stupni Do?

6 A. Probably be early November to -- right up to March. Early

7 November 1993 to March 1994.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll continue tomorrow. It's a

9 quarter to 2.00. We need to adjourn. We will reconvene tomorrow morning

10 at 9.00 a.m. Thank you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day

13 of March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.