Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16640

1 Monday, 2 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Today, Monday, the 2nd of April, I'd like to greet everyone present to the

11 courtroom, the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and all those

12 assisting us in our work.

13 First of all, there are three oral decisions I would like to

14 render. These concern the admission of documents into evidence.

15 The first document concerns evidence presented when the witness

16 Ferida Likic testified on the 22nd of March, 2007.

17 The Chamber hereby decides to admit into evidence the following

18 documents through the IC 00508 list, given that they have a certain

19 probative value and a certain relevance. The Chamber would like to point

20 out that documents P 06314, P 08382, P 08652, P 08660, P 08662, and P

21 08663 have already been admitted. They were admitted on the 29th of

22 March, 2007.

23 And now for the second oral decision that concerns evidence

24 presented during the testimony of Witness DG, who appeared on the 20th of

25 March, 2007. The Chamber hereby decides to admit the following documents

Page 16641

1 presented by the Prosecution through the IC 00502 list, given that they

2 have a certain probative value and a certain relevance.

3 The third oral decision that concerns documents presented in the

4 course of Mr. Mustafa Hadrovic's testimony, who appeared on the 21st and

5 22nd of February, 2007. Hadrovic, H-a-d-r-o-v-i-c. The Chamber hereby

6 admits into evidence the following documents presented by the Prosecution

7 through the IC 00445 list, and documents presented by the Defence through

8 the IC 00446 list, given that they have a certain probative value.

9 I would also like to remind the Prosecution that on the 8th of

10 March, 2007, I requested that they file a list -- or, rather, a definitive

11 witness list. I'm still waiting for this list to be submitted. It's

12 necessary for us to have such a list in order to see which witnesses the

13 Chamber might call if the Prosecution doesn't put these witnesses on their

14 list.

15 I would also like to remind the Defence that they should respond

16 to the motion for protective measures pursuant to Rule 70, and this

17 concerns the witness BH.

18 I would first like two IC numbers to be provided by the registrar

19 and then we will go into private session for a few minutes.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Several parties

21 have submitted lists of documents to be tendered through Witness Nelson

22 Draper. The list submitted by the OTP shall be given Exhibit number IC

23 517, while the list submitted by 3D shall be given Exhibit number IC 518.

24 Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, let's

Page 16642

1 go into private session for a few minutes.

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Page 16643











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Page 16646

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25 [Open session]

Page 16647

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Just a minute. We'll move

3 back into private session.

4 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: [Interpretation] No, it's not a problem; we can

5 remain in open session. Last time you said the accused would have the

6 right to address certain matters, the mentioned -- the meeting on the 22nd

7 of March, and I think that I would like to express my position with regard

8 to this matter, and on Thursday one of the accused already did so.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. We were thinking about

10 having a special hearing on Thursday morning so that you can express your

11 position. Rest reassured -- rest assured we haven't forgotten about this.

12 On Thursday morning there'll be a hearing because at 8.30 there's a

13 Pre-Trial Conference, but it should be over by 10.00. So we could start

14 the hearing at 10.00 and give you the floor, and if the need arises we

15 could then continue with the witness. So rest assured we haven't

16 forgotten about this.

17 We'll now have the witness called into the courtroom.

18 [The witness entered court]


20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

21 like to make sure you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm

22 saying. If so, please say so.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. I hear you well.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have been called

25 here as a witness by the Prosecution. Could you please tell me your first

Page 16648

1 and last name and date of birth, please.

2 THE WITNESS: My name is Herbert Okun. My date of birth is 27

3 November 1930.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you currently have a

5 profession or do you hold a position of any kind?

6 THE WITNESS: At present I am a professorial lecturer of

7 international relations, international institutions, and international law

8 at the School of Advanced International Studies, SAIS, of Johns Hopkins

9 University in Washington, DC.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you already testified

11 before this Tribunal or is this the first time?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which case did you testify in?

14 THE WITNESS: I've testified in three cases. The first the

15 Milosevic case, then the Krajisnik case, and the third was the Mrksic

16 case.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you please

18 read out the solemn declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth,

20 [Interpretation] The whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, you may sit down.

22 THE WITNESS: I'd first like to provide you with some information

23 about the procedure we will be following here. As you have already

24 testified here on three occasions, you are familiar with the rules.

25 You'll first have to answer the questions that the Prosecution will put to

Page 16649

1 you. You have certainly met the Prosecution already. You must have met

2 them this weekend, and once this stage has been completed the Defence

3 counsel who are to your left may also put questions to you in the course

4 of their cross-examination, and the accused themselves might put questions

5 to you since they have the right to do so if they would like to address

6 certain technical problems. The Judges, the four Judges sitting before

7 you may in accordance with the Rules may intervene at any time to put

8 their own questions to you but, as has so far been the case, we prefer to

9 wait for both parties to complete their examination before we put our

10 questions which we put to witnesses in order to clarify some of the --

11 your answers or in order to fill in any gaps that we may have noticed.

12 Any gaps we may have noticed in your answers.

13 Try and answer the questions concisely since as the procedure we

14 are following is an oral procedure it's what is said in the course of the

15 hearing that is important. The Prosecution, and the Defence, too, will

16 show documents to you and ask you to comment on them.

17 If at any point in time you don't feel well, don't hesitate to ask

18 for a break. As a general rule we have a break every one and a half hour,

19 and we have 20-minute breaks to allow the witness to rest, and also for

20 technical reasons. But if you feel it necessary to have a longer break or

21 if you feel to have -- if you feel the need to have more frequent breaks,

22 don't hesitate to ask us to adjourn. So this depends on your wishes.

23 And finally, if a question is not clear to you don't hesitate to

24 ask the party putting the question to you to rephrase it. If you would

25 like to address the Chamber at any point in time, don't hesitate to do so.

Page 16650

1 This is the information I wanted to provide you to make sure that

2 your testimony is given in the best possible conditions, and having said

3 that I will now give the floor to the Prosecution for their

4 examination-in-chief.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

6 Examination by Mr. Scott:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Ambassador?

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. Sir, you've told us you are Herbert Okun born on the 27th of

10 November, 1930; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you tell us please about your educational background, what

13 you -- completion after high school, please.

14 A. Yes. I studied at Stanford University, where I received a

15 bachelor's degree in mediaeval history in 1951. I then studied at

16 Syracuse University in history, then at Princeton University in history,

17 and that ended in 1952. I studied and received a master's of public

18 administration from Harvard University in 1959, and I studied at the

19 naval -- the US [Realtime transcript read in error "UN"] Naval War College

20 and received a degree, a masters in naval warfare, in 1969.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it correct that from approximately 1955 until

22 1991 you served more or less continuously as an officer in the United

23 States foreign service?

24 A. Yes, continuously. There was no break in my service.

25 Q. Can you tell us briefly, sir -- I just want to touch on some of

Page 16651

1 the postings and involvements that you had prior to taking up your

2 responsibilities in connection with Yugoslavia in the early 1990s. Can

3 you tell the Judges briefly, did you have any role to play in your foreign

4 service career in connection with the Cuban Missile Crisis?

5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] May I -- I'm very sorry but there

6 seems to be a mistake in the transcript. I suppose it is not a UN naval

7 War College that you attended but a US naval ...

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour, I said US.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

10 Q. Ambassador, could you tell us briefly about your involvement in

11 the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962?

12 A. Yes, I was then second secretary at the American embassy in Moscow

13 where I served from 1961 to '63. In October 1962, I was asked by the

14 Ambassador to be at the ready to translate all the communications between

15 Chairman Kruschev and President Kennedy that concerned the Cuban crisis.

16 I had learned Russian at Stanford University and it was a language I spoke

17 well and read comfortably. So I was asked to translate the letters

18 between Kennedy and Kruschev, which I did.

19 Q. And following that, can you tell us -- did you serve for a time as

20 the deputy chair of the United States delegation at the Strategic Arms

21 Limitation Talks with the Soviet Union, often more commonly known as SALT

22 II?

23 A. Yes, sir, I did, from 1978 and '79.

24 Q. And what was your -- very briefly your role in those proceedings?

25 A. Well, I was the deputy chairman of the American delegation, and my

Page 16652

1 role principally was to draft the treaty.

2 Q. All right. And is it correct, sir, that in 1973, 1974, you were a

3 political advisor or were political advisor to the NATO commander-in-chief

4 in the Mediterranean based in Naples with the specific responsibility --

5 well, first of all, did you have that position?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in the course of performing your duties in that position, did

8 you have some responsibilities in connection with what was then

9 Yugoslavia?

10 A. Yes. My principal purpose for being there was to be the Yugoslav

11 specialist on the staff.

12 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether that was the first time officially

13 that you had duties, foreign service duties, specifically in connection

14 with Yugoslavia?

15 A. Not really, because I dealt marginally but officially with

16 Yugoslavia in my capacity, which was constant in my service dealing with

17 the Soviet Union and with Germany. Yugoslavia was always in the arc of

18 attention.

19 Q. All right. Can you tell us please about your posting to the

20 German Democratic Republic between 1980 and 1983?

21 A. I was American Ambassador to the German Democratic Republic in

22 those years, '80 to '83, residing in what was then East Berlin, and I had

23 the normal duties that any ambassador has.

24 Q. And could you tell us what post you held during the time 1985 to

25 1989?

Page 16653

1 A. From 1985 to 1989 I was the deputy permanent representative and

2 ambassador of the United States to the United Nations in New York.

3 Q. And can you tell us, please, what positions or functions you

4 fulfilled or carried out during the period 1991 to 1997?

5 A. From 1991 to 1997 I was involved principally, almost exclusively,

6 with matters concerning the former Yugoslavia. From 1991 to 1993, I was

7 the deputy personal envoy of the United Nations Secretary-General for the

8 former Yugoslavia, first concerned principally with the conflict in

9 Croatia and then principally concerned with the conflict in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina. From May 1993 to 1996, in the same capacity, I was

11 principally occupied with mediating and resolving the Greek-Macedonian

12 dispute over the name of the country.

13 Q. Can you tell us as we've moved more closely to the time that we

14 will talk about in the course of your testimony, what position you held

15 during the period September 1992 until approximately May 1993?

16 A. From September 1992 until May 1993, in addition to the regular and

17 other tasks, I was the deputy co-chairman of the International Conference

18 on the Former Yugoslavia. This was the conference that was established at

19 the London conference of August 1992 to bring together the efforts of the

20 then EC and the United Nations, and the conference -- the two efforts were

21 joined. The co-chairmen of the conference were, for the UN, the former

22 American Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance, and for the EC, the former

23 British Foreign Secretary, David Lord Owen.

24 Q. And then following that term as you told us a moment ago, then you

25 moved to your responsibilities in connection with mediating a dispute

Page 16654

1 between Greece and the -- what was then the Yugoslav Republic of

2 Macedonia; is that correct?

3 A. The official title at the United Nations was the former Yugoslav

4 Republic of Macedonia, usually known by the initials FYROM.

5 Q. And before we move on, just for purposes of the record, and it may

6 come up at some time or another, when you've told us that between 1991 and

7 1997 you were a special advisor and deputy to the personal envoy -- as a

8 personal envoy of the United - UN, excuse me - the UN Secretary-General,

9 who was the UN Secretary-General during that time period?

10 A. At the beginning in 1991 the Secretary-General was Javier Perez de

11 Cuellar, a very distinguished Peruvian diplomat. His term ended in 1991,

12 and from January 1st, 1992, the Secretary-General was Boutros

13 Boutros-Ghali, an equally distinguished Egyptian diplomat.

14 Q. And before turning further to your specific involvement in

15 connection with Yugoslavia in 19 -- in the 1991 and 1993 time period, can

16 you tell us again, just by way of your background, briefly your teaching

17 positions other than the one you just mentioned a moment ago at Johns

18 Hopkins?

19 A. Yes, before teaching at Johns Hopkins I taught for a number of

20 years at the Yale Law School.

21 Q. On what topic or subject?

22 A. I lectured on international law and international negotiations.

23 Q. Now, sir, moving back specifically or forward specifically to your

24 roles in connection with the former Yugoslavia, can you tell the Judges

25 how you first became involved with Secretary Vance in connection with the

Page 16655

1 International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia?

2 A. In early October 1991, Secretary Vance and I were contacted

3 separately and together by the Secretary-General and asked if we could

4 proceed immediately to Yugoslavia in the capacity which I've mentioned.

5 First on a fact-finding mission, and then to recommend courses of action

6 that the United Nations and the Security Council and the Secretary-General

7 might follow with regards to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, which

8 at that time was limited to the Republic of Croatia.

9 Q. And following that period which focused more specifically on the

10 Republic of Croatia, did you subsequently become involved in work that

11 focused more specifically on Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes. Secretary Vance succeeded in ending the hostilities in

13 Croatia with an accord signed on January 2, 1992, between the government

14 of Croatia and the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army. The cessation of

15 hostilities was effective, and, based on that accord, the United Nations

16 surround voted in February of 1992 to establish a peacekeeping operation

17 in Croatia. This was, I might add, the first peacekeeping operation in

18 Europe in the history of the United Nations. But even during the Croatian

19 period, from October 1991, Mr. Vance and I were heavily involved in the

20 Bosnian situation because it was widely known, it was common knowledge

21 that the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina was an explosive one.

22 Q. And can you tell us then more specifically how you and Secretary

23 Vance turned your attention or were given these additional specific duties

24 in connection with Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. As I said, we maintained a watching brief on Bosnia, including

Page 16656

1 visits to Sarajevo and frequent discussions with Bosnian leaders. I

2 should mention that at that time, that is the first half of 1992, the

3 diplomatic negotiating effort, the overall negotiating effort was totally

4 in the hands of the EC. In the summer of 1991, the EC established, for

5 example, a conference, a multi-lateral peace conference called the

6 Conference on Yugoslavia headed by Lord Carrington, the former British

7 secretary for foreign affairs, in order to achieve a peace, comprehensive

8 peace for all of Yugoslavia if possible. The conference did not succeed,

9 but the EC effort continued, along with Mr. Vance and me and our team of

10 two or three other people, which was the only UN effort at the time. But

11 in August 1992, the British government, who then held the Presidency of

12 the EC, convened a large conference of foreign ministers in London, and at

13 that conference it was decided to establish the International Conference

14 on the Former Yugoslavia, that is to say, as I mentioned, joining the EC

15 effort with Secretary Vance and myself.

16 Q. On behalf of the UN.

17 A. Yes, acting on behalf of the UN.

18 Q. Sir, before we continue on now more specifically with your work on

19 various peace plans or in particular what became known as the Vance-Owen

20 Peace Plan, let me ask you about certain diaries that you kept during this

21 time which may come up in the course of your testimony or which you may

22 refer to or others may ask you about in the course of your testimony.

23 Were you keeping diaries during this time, 1991, 1992, 1993?

24 A. Yes. From the first day of our involvement in the former

25 Yugoslavia I maintained, for myself and for Secretary Vance, a record of

Page 16657

1 what was said to us, whom we met, when we met them, and it was of course

2 useful. I should say I am not a stenographer and do not -- could not and

3 did not take verbatim notes, but the diaries were quite complete. As a

4 professional diplomat, one is very used to this sort of work. Accuracy is

5 important, so I maintained these diaries.

6 Q. Let me just pick up on what you just said. In connection with

7 your work in the former Yugoslavia, was that the first time in your

8 foreign service career that you had kept diaries or had that been an

9 established practice with you for some time?

10 A. Oh, it's an established practice.

11 Q. And were these diaries -- how did you actually make the entries in

12 your diaries? Were these collected and you put these thoughts down some

13 days later or were they contemporaneous or how do you prepare these

14 papers?

15 A. They were all contemporaneous. At the negotiating table I had my

16 notebook in front of me. I could be seen writing and taking notes. When

17 I myself was alone with an interlocutor, I sometimes had my diary with me.

18 Very often I didn't because it would not be polite to be writing when

19 you're talking directly to somebody. And when that was the case, I would

20 write it immediately after the meeting, as soon as the meeting ended. So

21 they were done on the spot so to speak.

22 Q. All right. You just mentioned and let me come back to it briefly

23 before going forward, you said that you could be seen taking notes. The

24 persons that were involved in these meetings, I take it you're indicate --

25 it was not a secret that you were making notes?

Page 16658

1 A. No, not at all.

2 Q. And did you use these notes in part to prepare reports on behalf

3 of Secretary Vance and yourself to the Secretary-General of the United

4 Nations during this time?

5 A. Yes. They formed the basis for Secretary Vance's reports, along,

6 of course, with his own impressions and opinions and views, but they were

7 the only record we kept.

8 Q. Let me turn our attention to some of the events taking place in

9 Yugoslavia around this time itself. Can you remind the Judges, please,

10 when did the actual fighting between the Serbs and other non-Serb forces

11 or persons in Bosnia-Herzegovina begin?

12 A. Except for very small-scale, random, and occasional acts of

13 violence, the fighting began in March 1992, immediately after the

14 referendum in Bosnia ended. It expanded significantly in April 1992 with

15 the shelling by the Bosnian Serb army of Sarajevo, and continued until

16 1995 with occasional cessation -- cease-fires on various -- in various

17 parts of the front. The heaviest fighting, I should add, was in 1992 and

18 1993.

19 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that this fighting took place or

20 erupted on a large scale at least immediately after the referendum in

21 Bosnia. Just so the record is clear, was that the referendum on the

22 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was held on the -- February of

23 the -- excuse me, the 29th of February and March 1, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did the Serbs participate in that referendum to your

Page 16659

1 knowledge, the Serb citizens of Bosnia?

2 A. No. The Bosnian Serbs boycotted the referendum, and it was voted

3 then on only by the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats. The Serbs

4 chose not to participate.

5 Q. And is it correct then to understand based on what you've just

6 told us in the last few minutes that the major outbreak of fighting then,

7 the large-scale war gave was partly in reaction to or following the

8 referendum results?

9 A. Yes. The Bosnian Serbs had let it be known that they would resist

10 the results of any referendum. Indeed, the Bosnian Serbs had already

11 declared the existence, the self-declared existence of their self-declared

12 state, the Republika Srpska, on January 15th, 1992.

13 Q. In that regard, let me ask you, in your role as an international

14 representative during this time, what was the knowledge of the

15 international community and persons like yourself in connection with one

16 meeting between Tudjman and Milosevic in Karadjordjevo in March 1991 and

17 then a meeting between Radovan Karadzic and Mate Boban in Graz in May --

18 sorry, if I misspoke. March 1991 was Karadjordjevo and Graz in May 1992?

19 A. I would not say these meetings were widely reported or known to

20 the general public, but those who had reason to follow events in

21 Yugoslavia knew of these meetings and knew quite well of the meetings and

22 knew what the subject matter of these meetings was.

23 Q. And what was the subject matter of those meetings?

24 A. The subject matter was the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

25 the principal subject -- sub-subject, ancillary subject, was the partition

Page 16660

1 of Bosnia and Herzegovina between Serbs and Croats.

2 Q. In carrying out your diplomatic missions during this time,

3 Ambassador, can you tell us what you understood, what information you

4 gained around that time of what this partition between -- of Bosnia by the

5 Serbs and the Croats, what that might look like, what you had heard about

6 any discussions at these meetings?

7 A. Yes. It was known at the time that the basic form of any

8 partition, if there was to be one by Serbs and Croats, would generally

9 follow the outline of the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement, the Sporazum, as it

10 was called.

11 Q. What was the approximate date of the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement?

12 A. The date of the agreement, the Sporazum, is August 1939.

13 Q. And could you tell us a bit more about what the -- how that

14 agreement came about, briefly, and what was the result in terms of maps or

15 territory resulting from that agreement?

16 A. Yes. When Yugoslavia came into being at the end of the First

17 World War, it was not called Yugoslavia. The name of the country was the

18 Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and the Serbian royal family

19 became the King of the country. You see by that immediately the national

20 emphasis of the people of the former Yugoslavia.

21 Relations were not good in the 1920's between the principal

22 nationalities, the Croats and the Serbs. Indeed the leading Serb [sic]

23 politician of the time was murdered by a Serb in the parliament in the

24 late 1920's. So in late 1929, King Aleksandar changed the name from of

25 the country from the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes to Yugoslavia

Page 16661

1 in order to de-emphasise the national aspect, and at the same time he

2 abolished the traditional provincial borders of the country. And instead

3 of the borders he created what were called "banovina," "banovine" or

4 "banovinas" in English, we would say. There were nine of these

5 Banovinas, all named after rivers of the former Yugoslavia, and again that

6 was done in order to de-emphasise the national aspect, so that when we

7 talk about the banovinas, the Croatian Banovina in the Cvetkovic-Macek

8 Agreement, that is what people are talking about, and indeed there was a

9 map. Cvetkovic and Macek created a map of what the -- what their border,

10 what their common border would look like.

11 Q. All right. Before we continue on, sir, I may have misheard or you

12 may have misspoke or, in fact, it may be absolutely correct. You said --

13 a few moments ago, you said, "Indeed the leading Serb politician at the

14 time was murdered by a Serb in the parliament"?

15 A. No, the leading Croat politician. I excuse me, I'm sorry. The

16 leading Croat -- Croatian politician was murdered by a Serb.

17 Q. Can you tell us --

18 THE WITNESS: I would ask the record to be corrected on that, Your

19 Honour.

20 MR. SCOTT: It has been, Ambassador, thank you.

21 Q. Now, this topic could be discussed I suppose at any number of

22 places during the course of your testimony, I suppose now is as good a

23 time as any. In connection with the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement of 1939,

24 was that agreement put into effect and remind us what happened soon after

25 that.

Page 16662

1 A. As I said it was signed in August 1939. Less than a month later

2 Germany invaded Poland and World War II began. So its implementation was

3 naturally slowed and never completed. As we will all know, Nazi Germany

4 invaded and conquered Yugoslavia in 1941. So the Cvetkovic-Macek

5 Agreement fell completely into disuse after April 1941 because Yugoslavia

6 was an occupied country.

7 Q. And what were the borders or political composition of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina and Croatia during World War II?

9 A. During the Second World War, the Nazi German government created a

10 so-called Independent State of Croatia with its capital in Zagreb. The

11 state was headed by the Poglavnik, that is to say the fuehrer, the leader,

12 of the Ustasha extreme political party, and it existed under German

13 protection. The Germans gave all of Bosnia-Herzegovina to this state so

14 that from 1941 to 1945 the puppet State of Croatia occupied and was

15 responsible for the activities in what is today Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 Q. Did the borders of the Independent State of Croatia include or

17 encompass all of what became -- later became Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, going back with that additional background to the Graz

20 meeting in May 1992, how did you learn or what did you know of the time

21 about how that concept, the Banovina, related to the discussions between

22 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Boban at that time?

23 A. Well, press reports, and we relied in the main on press reports,

24 spoke of the Banovina. We all knew about it. Anybody connected in any

25 degree with the former Yugoslavia knows about the Sporazum, the agreement,

Page 16663

1 because it's a datum, a fact, so that the assumption was that if the Serbs

2 and the Croatians were talking about partitioning Bosnia, it would likely

3 be along the lines of the agreement of 1939.

4 MR. SCOTT: Can I ask the witness to now please be provided with

5 the bundle of exhibits, and as that's happening and I'll ask the witness

6 or for the Judges' information, I will ask you to look at Exhibit P 00187.

7 And if I could ask -- if I could direct the courtroom's attention

8 to page 4 of that set of papers. Page 4. And if that page 4 could

9 perhaps also be put on e-court.

10 Q. Sir, I'd like you in particular to look -- direct your attention

11 to items 1 and 2. You can certainly scan the entire document, but if I

12 can ask you to please look at 1 and 2. Is what's written here consistent

13 with what you and Secretary Vance and others understood at the time of the

14 discussions between Mr. Boban and Mr. Karadzic?

15 A. Yes, it is consistent. May I add, sir, that as, I read item 2, I

16 note that the Hrvatska banovina, the Croatian Banovina, is specifically

17 referred to.

18 Q. And is that the same concept or was that the -- again the banovina

19 that you're referring to a few moments ago as resulting from the

20 Cvetkovic-Macek agreement from 1939?

21 A. Yes, because the only time banovinas existed was in that period,

22 because after Yugoslavia was liberated in 1945 the Communist Tito

23 government created new republics and new borders.

24 Q. And in reference to the Graz Agreement of May 1992, what was your

25 understanding, and the understanding of the international community, so

Page 16664

1 far as you knew, of where this agreement left the Muslim people in Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina?

3 A. Well, it -- it left them really nowhere.

4 Q. And can you tell the Judges in scanning through this agreement is

5 there anyplace on the face of this document where any discussion is made

6 about a Muslim territory or what part that Muslims would be left with?

7 A. No. There's no mention of the Muslim community.

8 Q. What was the reaction of the people in your profession, the

9 diplomatic corps and the international community to learning of this Graz

10 meeting?

11 A. Well, as you mentioned, the meeting occurred in May 1992. By that

12 time, there was very heavy fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The

13 Bosnian Serb army already occupied more than two-thirds of the country,

14 and the agreement was noted, but I would not say that a great deal of

15 attention was paid to it. Those who knew the situation were not surprised

16 to see it, but the primary activity at the time, and again I stress this,

17 the activity of the European Community which was leading the international

18 negotiations at the time in May 1992, the primary activity was to try and

19 stop the Serb aggression.

20 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether -- was there further -- was there

21 a further carrying out of this plan or a further public statements taken

22 by either the Serb side or the Croat side as to what this meant for Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina at the time?

24 A. Oh, I would say constantly. It was an undercurrent of Croat and

25 Croatian activity, and we were always aware of that. Numerous examples

Page 16665

1 could be cited. Probably the most dramatic public example occurred as

2 late as 1995 when President Tudjman was in London, and he was at a dinner,

3 seated next to Paddy Ashdown, Lord Ashdown --

4 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, I'm going to object. This covers a

5 piece of evidence that the Court has ruled to be irrelevant. It was the

6 subject and motion by the Prosecution to admit, and in response to a

7 Defence position the Court ruled it out on the grounds that it was

8 irrelevant.

9 MR. SCOTT: I would say this was tendered as part of the

10 transcript of Mr. Paddy Ashdown, which was in fact received, I must say,

11 in contrast to the Chamber's ruling, was in fact received in the Blaskic

12 case, the Kordic case, and the Tuta-Stela case all as relevant evidence on

13 the very same point, and this is simply a part of this witness's account

14 of what he knew at the time and the sort of things that were openly known

15 by the international community.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: The gentleman wasn't present, and according to

17 Mr. Ashdown there was a lot of drinking going on. Mr. Ashdown is a known

18 alcoholic, or at least that's what is perceived in the press. If we're

19 going to be relying on press. And so we can bring Mr. Ashdown in here and

20 he can be cross-examined and he can tell us what he said, but we also have

21 to put it into context and I think if this gentleman, if he wasn't there,

22 he cannot give us that context.

23 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, leaving that aside, the -- the issue

24 that we brought to the Court's attention was that all that had happened in

25 this conversation was that the there was speculation as to what the status

Page 16666

1 of Bosnia and Herzegovina might be in ten years' time. The dinner took

2 place in 1995, and therefore the evidence was really dealing with a

3 speculation on a social occasion as to what might be the condition of

4 Bosnia in 2005, and for that reason the Court held it to be irrelevant.

5 And whatever another Trial Chamber may have thought, that's the ruling in

6 this case.

7 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, just --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will confer and

9 deliberate.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as this dinner is

12 concerned and everything that might relate to the dinner, it's our opinion

13 that this should be taken as an anecdote. So it would be best for the

14 Prosecution to move on.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just simply note in

16 moving on that it would have been better, in our respectful submission,

17 rather than have counsel speculate about the nature of this testimony, for

18 the Chamber to have heard Mr. Ashdown's testimony, which he gives a very

19 detailed account of the map drawn by President Tudjman, partitioning

20 Bosnia, but be that as it may.

21 Q. Sir, let me ask you this: In the statement that you gave a few

22 weeks ago, you said that following Graz -- in connection with Graz and

23 Karadjordjevo, both sides made solemn protestations for the benefit of the

24 broader public about the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you tell us

25 what you mean by that and how that enters into what the international

Page 16667

1 community was doing at that time in reacting to this situation?

2 A. Yes. Both the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Croats, primarily the

3 Bosnian Croats in this case, would issue statements concerning the

4 integrity, the sovereignty, the territorial integrity of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, and they would solemnly affirm their adherence to these

6 concepts. The Bosnian Serbs did that occasionally but a little less so,

7 but that was not true. Their actions belied these public statements, and

8 the international negotiators were always aware of this two-track policy.

9 That is to say the one track in public, declaring loyalty and fielty to

10 the independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the other track

11 working to undermine that state and establish their own political entities

12 on the territory of the state.

13 Q. Let me just stay on that one moment longer, sir, since you are

14 very senior diplomat with years of experience in this area. How -- is

15 that unique in your experience as a diplomat, sir, or how could it be that

16 a party on the one hand?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection.


19 Q. Could take a public position and at the same time to your

20 knowledge be taken a different have a different agenda?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It calls for speculation, and what

22 others are doing in other parts of the world is irrelevant.

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm asking for his -- based on his

24 experience as a diplomat, as a senior diplomat.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: It's still irrelevant.

Page 16668

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, according to the

2 transcript, the question was about knowledge, not about speculation,

3 because line 9 mentions his experience as a diplomat. So he is not being

4 asked to speculate. The witness is being asked to say what he thinks

5 about the matter in the light of his diplomatic knowledge.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: It would still be irrelevant even if it's not

7 speculation. How did -- how the Russians acted during the SALT

8 agreement --

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] The objection has been overruled.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm still entitled to make my record.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Well, speak.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, that was -- I was making my record,

14 Your Honour. It's still irrelevant. How the Russians, for instance,

15 might have negotiated during the SALT agreement or how the Greeks might

16 have negotiated with FYROM or Macedonia or whatever you want to call or

17 other parts of the world is irrelevant, and I just think that -- I don't

18 see how this is relevant to this testimony. Now, perhaps you may wish to

19 ask the Prosecutor how it -- how he thinks this is relevant information

20 for you to consider.

21 MR. SCOTT: Well, Mr. Karnavas has made his record, Your Honour.

22 Excuse me. Mr. Karnavas has made his record. The Court has ruled.

23 Q. Ambassador, could you go forward and give us your answer in terms

24 of your professional observations and based on your more than 50 years --

25 50 years of diplomatic experience on this kind of situation.

Page 16669

1 A. It is not uncommon to follow this kind of two-track policy.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Does that go for the United States as well? I

3 mean, that's -- that's -- because this is a relevant follow-up question.

4 Was the US also pursuing a two-track policy during this period of time?

5 MR. SCOTT: If Mr. Karnavas wants to ask that during

6 cross-examination, he may do so, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. That's exactly what I was

8 going to say. This is a question for cross-examination.

9 Mr. Scott, please continue.


11 Q. All right. We'll move on, Ambassador, and perhaps you may find as

12 we continue on other opportunities to address that situation further.

13 Now, you told us earlier this afternoon that in August of 1992

14 there was a conference in London which then, if I understand correctly,

15 resulted in the formation of the International Conference on the Former

16 Yugoslavia, sometime referred to as the ICFY or ICFY for short; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. And when did ICFY then begin its work?

20 A. It began its work in Geneva immediately after the conclusion of

21 the London conference. That means it began its work at the beginning of

22 September 1992.

23 Q. And were you and Secretary Vance and Lord Owen located in Geneva

24 during that time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16670

1 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, how the conference was organised

2 and how it conducted its business?

3 A. The conference took up its work from where the EC had left off, so

4 the acquis was part of our work.

5 Q. Can you explain to those in the courtroom who may not be familiar

6 with the word or conference, what you mean by that?

7 A. It's French and it's the pass participle -- in English we would

8 say that which has been acquired. That is to say all of the previous

9 official material is utilised.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. There was the -- the chair and co-chairmen's, Secretary Vance,

12 Lord Owen and myself, and Ambassador Peter Hall, a British ambassador. We

13 had five working groups working on various aspects of the problem. One on

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. The purpose was directly to seek to negotiate

15 a peace accord among the parties. We had a working group on humanitarian

16 affairs, a working group on minorities specially, a working group on

17 economic affairs, and, hmm, there was a fifth working group.

18 Q. A working group on military affairs?

19 A. Yes. Excuse me. Of course. A working group on military affairs.

20 Those were the five working groups.

21 Q. And can you tell us how the meetings, how the actual meetings with

22 various of the parties to the conflict were conducted during this time

23 period?

24 A. Yes. We met continuously, nonstop, with the parties individually

25 or bilaterally, both in Geneva and in the former Yugoslavia. You can

Page 16671

1 understand naturally that much travel to Yugoslavia, the former

2 Yugoslavia, was involved in this kind of negotiating effort while the

3 conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina raged.

4 Between September and December, most -- the bulk of the meetings

5 of the chairman and the co-chairman were with the individual parties.

6 There were bilateral meetings on the whole. The reason for that was that

7 the Bosnian Muslims would not sit down, as they said, at the same table

8 with the Bosnian Serbs. So that naturally led to a certain course of

9 action.

10 After January, the broader groups met with the co-chairman and the

11 conference took on a more even intense form after January 1992 -- excuse

12 me, January 1993.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Might I put a very, very small

14 follow-up question?

15 You have said, Ambassador, that you often met in former

16 Yugoslavia. Could you tell it us the venues? Where was that within the

17 former Yugoslavia?

18 THE WITNESS: In this period it was primarily Zagreb, Sarajevo,

19 and Belgrade.

20 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Thank you.


22 Q. Sir, I'm next going to ask you if you can name the principal

23 participants or representatives of the three principal parties. I'm start

24 with the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Who represented -- who

25 participated in these proceedings, conferences, meetings, on behalf of the

Page 16672

1 Bosnian government?

2 A. On behalf of the Bosnian government the principal participants

3 were President Izetbegovic, Foreign Minister Silajdzic, Ejub Ganic,

4 General Halilovic, and Mr. Trnka.

5 Q. And what position did Mr. Ganic hold during that time, if any?

6 A. His positions varied. He called himself sometimes vice-president.

7 He -- he had different denominations.

8 Q. And was Mr. -- General Halilovic, was he there sort of the senior

9 military representative for the Bosnian Muslim -- the government side?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And can you tell us, please, then, who appeared or who were the

12 principal representatives on behalf of the Bosnian Serbs in these

13 meetings?

14 A. The principal representatives for the Bosnian Serbs were Radovan

15 Karadzic, who was the self-proclaimed president of the self-proclaimed

16 Republika Srpska; Momcilo Krajisnik, who was vice-president; Nikola

17 Koljevic, and General Ratko Mladic.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't mean to interrupt, but the

19 previous question to that was with respect to Halilovic, whether he was

20 with the -- starts with "military representative of the Bosnian Muslim,"

21 and then there is the government side. Now, it's either a compound

22 question or Mr. Scott meant to correct himself, but I would like to know

23 to this gentleman's mind: Was he there on behalf of the Muslims or was he

24 there on behalf of the government, meaning a government that would

25 represent everybody in Bosnia-Herzegovina, not just one side?

Page 16673

1 MR. SCOTT: Well, I would ask for a clarify questioning, but once

2 again I would ask that counsel, and for the Court's guidance, save these

3 matters for cross-examination, which they will have every opportunity to

4 conduct.

5 Q. Sir, but which party to these proceedings -- which party to these

6 proceedings did General Halilovic represent or participate with?

7 A. He was in the dual capacity as a member of the government

8 delegation and the Muslim leader, army leader.

9 Q. And when you say "the Muslim army leader," you're referring

10 primarily, do I take it, to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the ABiH?

11 A. Yes, the ABiH.

12 Q. All right. And can you please then tell the Judges who were the

13 principal representatives or participants for the Bosnian Croat party?

14 A. For the Bosnian Croats there was President Tudjman himself of the

15 Republic of Croatia in Zagreb; Mate Boban, the leader of the Bosnian

16 Croats. Mate Boban. Who else? Numerous other gentlemen. Could I

17 consult my statement for that?

18 Q. Perhaps I can assist you. Did Mile Akmadzic play any role in

19 that?

20 A. Ah, yes. Dr. Akmadzic played an important role that needs

21 explaining, if I may.

22 Q. Please.

23 A. Dr. Akmadzic was formally and officially the Prime Minister of the

24 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, he acted and indeed said

25 directly to us that he was there as a representative of the Bosnian Croat

Page 16674

1 side, and this was evidenced not just confidentially to the negotiators

2 but to the world at large, because at the meetings of the International

3 Conference on the Former Yugoslavia, most of which were held in open

4 conference rooms at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Dr. Akmadzic sat

5 physically with Mate Boban and the Bosnian Croat side. So there was no

6 doubt who he represented. It was open. It was direct. It was honest.

7 But there was an anomaly since formally he was Prime Minister of the

8 government.

9 Q. And you've mentioned in connection with the -- a military

10 participant on behalf of each party Mr. Halilovic, Mr. Ratko Mladic, and

11 can you tell us who was the military representative, if you will, on

12 behalf of the Bosnian Croats?

13 A. It slipped my mind. Could you refresh my memory?

14 Q. We'll come back to it, if we need to, in a few minutes perhaps.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: He can refresh the memory of the ambassador.

16 There's no reason not to.


18 Q. If there's anything that you would like to refer to, if it would

19 assist you, Ambassador, or perhaps in the interest of time I don't think

20 there would be any serious dispute. I think it's a matter of public

21 record, essentially. Was the military representative Mr. Milivoj

22 Petkovic?

23 A. Yes, he was.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned a moment ago that the head of the Bosnian Croat

25 delegation was President Franjo Tudjman, the president of the Republic of

Page 16675

1 Croatia. Can you explain to the Judges, if you can, how it was that the

2 president of the Republic of Croatia headed the delegation of Bosnian

3 Croats?

4 A. Well, I should state at the outset that most of our dealings were

5 with Mate Boban, but President Tudjman took a very active interest in the

6 affairs of the conference and the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

7 made it plain to Mr. Vance and me that he, A, was in charge; B, wished to

8 be kept informed, and; C, would be happy to deal with us on these issues.

9 And also in conversation, everyday conversation, Mate Boban might say to

10 me, "Yes, Mr. Ambassador, I think that's possible, but I'd have to check

11 with President Tudjman."

12 Q. Moving --

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm about to change topics. I'm looking

14 at the clock and I'm wondering if now might be the time to take the first

15 break.

16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, before we have the break,

17 I'd like to go back to the Prosecution's question. When Mr. Mate Boban

18 said that he had referred to President Tudjman, is that because

19 Mr. Tudjman was the head of the delegation, as one says in diplomatic

20 language, or because he was an observer on the Croatian side?

21 THE WITNESS: He was not formally the head of delegation, but he

22 was de facto the head.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now have our 20-minute

25 break. It's almost 20 to 4.00, and we will resume at 4.00 p.m.

Page 16676

1 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will continue, but first I'm

4 going to give the floor to the registrar for an IC number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, President. 4D has submitted

6 a list documents they wish to be tendered through witness Nelson Draper.

7 This list for the list shall be given Exhibit number IC 519. Thank you

8 very much.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Scott, you have

10 the floor.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Sir, I'd like, before we continue on with the work of the

13 International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia, to ask you about when

14 did the international community or you and your particular group

15 Lord Owen, Secretary Vance, yourself, when do you recall first becoming

16 aware of, apart from the conflict going on with the Serbs, that there was

17 a conflict either brewing or happening between the Croats and Muslims in

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. That a conflict was brewing was known early on. I would say from

20 the outset of the war in March 1992, and even somewhat earlier because of

21 the spill-over from the Serb aggression against Croatia, which had

22 understandably manifestations in Bosnia. Probably the events of Prozor in

23 1992 with the -- was close to the first major indication.

24 Q. At around the time that you heard about the events in Prozor, did

25 you hear anything about related events perhaps in the area of Novi

Page 16677

1 Travnik?

2 A. Yes. The Novi Travnik area was very sensitive because of the

3 large armaments factory located there, and this was brought to our

4 attention and to the attention of many others as well. There was no

5 secret about the fighting there, and the parties would talk about it

6 directly to us. That is to say the government side would complain. Mate

7 Boban for the Croats would complain. So we were aware of the situation.

8 Q. In that very regard, sir, if I could ask you to look at in your

9 are bundle of documents Exhibit P 00660. Can you look at that briefly,

10 sir, and can you tell us do you recall having seen that document back in

11 1992?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And this is a letter from Mr. -- from President Izetbegovic to

14 Cyrus Vance and Lord David Owen. Did this come about -- this is dated the

15 27th of October, 1992. Does that remind you of the approximate time

16 period of events related to Prozor and Novi Travnik?

17 A. Yes. To the best of my recollection it's contemporaneous with

18 those events.

19 Q. Continuing on that same topic, could I ask you next to please

20 look -- go to Exhibit P 01462. This is a report, the -- yeah, they should

21 be all tabbed by numbers there. 1462.

22 Apparently it's in the second binder I've just been told. My

23 apology to the usher. There it is.

24 Sir, if you look at that for a moment, and just -- it's a rather

25 long document but there are some specific parts I'll direct your attention

Page 16678

1 to in a moment.

2 A. Mm-hmm.

3 Q. Can you remind the Judges who -- this is a report by the Special

4 Rapporteur, Mr. Mazowiecki. Who was Mr. Mazowiecki at this time, and what

5 was his role in connection with -- or how did he come to be involved as

6 the Special Rapporteur to the UN on the former Yugoslavia?

7 A. Tadeusz Mazowiecki was the distinguished former Prime Minister of

8 Poland. When he left that office, he continued his international

9 activities, and when the United Nations decided to establish the role of a

10 Special Rapporteur for human rights in the former Yugoslavia and

11 specifically Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Secretary-General asked

12 Prime Minister Mazowiecki if he would be the rapporteur, and he accepted.

13 Q. All right. In looking at this document, let me go, if you will,

14 to the end and then work backwards to some extent. Can you please turn --

15 it would be -- the pages are numbered in the upper-left corner, and if I

16 can please ask you to go all the way to page 76, which is Annex number

17 III.

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. This makes reference to the London international conference,

20 programme of humanitarian issues agreed between the co-chairmen to the

21 conference and the parties to the conflict. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether that is reference to the

24 conference involving Secretary Vance and Lord Owen?

25 A. Yes. This is the London conference of August 1992 that I referred

Page 16679

1 to earlier.

2 Q. Just as a couple of particular examples, if I could please direct

3 your attention to item number 2(d), as in "dog." Can you tell the Judges

4 one of the issues that emerged at this time was the problem of the

5 detention of civilians?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can I ask you -- excuse me. In connection with that document, was

8 there a signature on this programme, in fact if you go to page 78 can you

9 tell us whether that document bears the signatures of Mr. Izetbegovic,

10 Mr. Karadzic, and Mr. Mate Boban?

11 A. I see their names, yes.

12 Q. It says, "Identical copies of this document were signed in London

13 on 27 August 1992 ..." Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That was the conference in London that was held immediately

16 preceding the formation of the then ongoing group in Geneva; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Exactly so.

19 Q. Just a number of references to be followed by a couple of

20 questions. Can I ask you to go to page 7, paragraph 16. Page 7,

21 paragraph 16.

22 Can you tell the Judges in reference to that entry what knowledge

23 were you -- what knowledge and information were you, Secretary Vance, Lord

24 Owen, and others receiving around this time in connection with so-called

25 ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Page 16680

1 A. Well, it was a constant subject, a constant object of attention.

2 It was being carried out very heavily by the Bosnian Serbs, particularly

3 along the Drina and in Western Bosnia, Prijedor and that region. And the

4 Bosnian Croats were active in ethnic cleansing around Mostar and other

5 areas in South Herzegovina and in Central Bosnia, which is where Novi

6 Travnik is, for example.

7 Q. Can I please ask you to direct your attention to page number 9,

8 paragraph 30. I won't take everyone's time to read the entire paragraph,

9 but the first sentence is: "There are accounts of ethnic cleansing being

10 carried out by Croat forces in the area of Prozor toward the end of 1992."

11 It goes on to make reference a couple of lines down to October 1992.

12 Can you look at that paragraph, please, and my question to you:

13 Is that information here consistent with what you told us about a few

14 moments ago, the information that you were hearing and receiving around

15 this time as to the outbreak of a more large-scale conflict between the

16 Muslims and Croats?

17 A. Yes. This is consistent with what we understood, what we knew at

18 the time.

19 Q. Can I please direct your attention to paragraph 53 on page 13.

20 You mentioned a few moments ago that one of the issues that had -- was

21 already becoming known around this time was the detention of various

22 ethnic persons and civilians, and this makes reference to the holding of

23 prisoners or detainees by various groups, including approximately 894

24 known detainees held by Croat forces.

25 Let me ask you to look at -- before I put a question to you, if

Page 16681

1 you go on that same topic page 16, paragraph 71. "Croat forces are

2 detaining 537 persons in four known places of detention even though their

3 leaders had stated that they held no further detainees. They are: Livno,

4 Mostar, Rodoc, Orasje, and Rascani." Is that correct?

5 A. Yes. I might add here --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. -- that there was no attempt to hide this detention activity. The

8 three warring parties, the -- the three warring parties met with the ICRC,

9 the International Committee of the Red Cross, and declared their detention

10 centres in order for the ICRC representatives to visit the camps or to try

11 to visit the camps. They couldn't always visit. They weren't always

12 allowed to do so. But as I say, the parties did openly declare that they

13 held these people most -- almost all of whom were civilians, in fact.

14 Q. Going to another topic besides the detention of civilians, can I

15 ask you please to look at page 23, the end of paragraph 105.

16 "For example, Serb houses were reportedly burnt in the village of

17 Gradina by government/Croat forces in July 1992 as were Muslim houses in

18 Prozor by Croat forces in October 1992."

19 Again, sir, can you tell the Judges, is that information

20 consistent with information you and Secretary Vance and Lord Owen were

21 receiving around that time?

22 A. Yes, the reports of the ECMM, that is to say the European

23 Community Monitoring Mission, and by UNPROFOR, the United Nations

24 Protective Force, were consistent with this information.

25 Q. Now, moving forward, sir, and back to the particular work of the

Page 16682

1 International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia, in the course of

2 carrying out your mission, did you make any efforts -- I suppose it's an

3 obvious question, but can you tell us what you and Secretary Vance and

4 Lord Owen and your delegation did to learn about the positions or aims, if

5 you will, about the various principal parties to these negotiations? What

6 were their objectives as they became known to you in the course of these

7 negotiations?

8 A. In the first instance we discussed it directly with them very

9 thoroughly. This was necessary because the principal task of the

10 conference was to develop a settlement, a peaceful settlement of the

11 conflict, and it goes without saying that one of the first things you

12 would do in that situation is learn the objectives, seek to learn the

13 objectives of the contending parties. So this was a steady subject of

14 discussion. And then there were public documents. The Bosnian Serb

15 so-called parliament would issue statements. They did issue a very

16 important one in May 1992. The same thing went for Mate Boban and the

17 Herceg-Bosna people, and of course the government did.

18 Q. All right. Now, just for the record, when you're carrying out

19 diplomatic work such as this, are you relying then only on what the

20 parties themselves tell you and about their public positions, or what

21 other information do you gather and draw conclusions from?

22 A. Oh, one gets them from a whole host of sources. Journalists

23 may -- who have interviews with one of the other leaders of the parties,

24 or one of the people in the field may tell you things that they learn.

25 The non-governmental organisations, the NGOs, deal directly with the

Page 16683

1 organisations. Madam Ogata and the United Nations -- the United Nations

2 High Commissioner for Refugees, which was the lead agency for the entire

3 UN effort in Bosnia-Herzegovina had her own sources, and she, by the way,

4 was the chair of the working group on humanitarian affairs. So we were in

5 steady contact with Mrs. Ogata and with her people. So there were many

6 sources of information.

7 Q. All right. With that background in mind, can you briefly describe

8 for the Judges then, and we will go through all three of the major parties

9 but we'll start with the Bosnian government, can you tell us what the

10 position of President Izetbegovic and the Bosnian government were as these

11 objectives or aims became known to you?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Before he answers that question, Your Honour, I

13 notice that they keep referring to this "government." Now, is it the

14 government representing all of the people by the people, or is it the

15 Muslims? Because I think we need some clarification. He says three

16 parties. I think it's misleading to refer to the Muslims as "the

17 government."

18 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, again perhaps Mr. Karnavas would

19 like to talk inquire about that --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please clarify.

21 MR. SCOTT: -- to him on cross-examination, but let me just ask.

22 Q. Sir, during this time was an internationally recognised government

23 of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was based in Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes, there was. Its independence had been recognised. It was a

25 member of the United Nations. So there was an internally --

Page 16684

1 internationally recognised government.

2 Q. And what were the positions or aims, if you will, as you learned

3 then of this government?

4 A. The principal aim of the Muslim-dominated government was to

5 create, to develop, to have a highly centralised unitary state within

6 secure, recognised boundaries of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They hoped, or at

7 least some members of this government wanted it to be non-ethnically

8 based, so to speak a government of all its citizens. Others inside the

9 government saw it more from the Muslim angle, and that was also known.

10 And it was to be, as I say, highly centralised, and so the constituent

11 units of the country - after all, all countries with constituent units

12 whether they're called states or provinces or regions, whatever - they

13 wanted these constituent units to be largely administrative and the

14 government to be centralised with the decision-making power in Sarajevo.

15 Q. One of the words you used a moment ago in describing this position

16 was a unitary state or a unitary government. You said "unitary state" on

17 line 24 at page 44.

18 A. Mm-hmm.

19 Q. What do you mean when you say "unitary" in this context?

20 A. By "unitary" I mean that there was to be one state called Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, with no sub-units on

22 the territory. And the reason they were insistent on that was that the

23 Bosnian Serbs, as I mentioned earlier, had already declared the existence

24 in their minds of a state called Republika Srpska, and the Bosnian Croats

25 had already declared and let it be known about the community of

Page 16685

1 Herceg-Bosna, so that the government wanted a unitary statement without

2 the existence of these sub-states.

3 Q. Can you then tell the Judges, please, what the aims or objectives

4 as you came to know them, you and Secretary Vance and Lord Owen - when I

5 say "you," I'm speaking of the group of you working together, not just

6 yourself personally - that you came to know about the positions and aims

7 of the Bosnian Serbs.

8 A. Yes. The Bosnian Serbs had many aims. The first was the creation

9 of the Republika Srpska, the Serbian republic in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

10 second was that this state should have a continuous territory, not be

11 chopped up into patches. The third aim was that the Republika Srpska be

12 contiguous with Serbia so that in the fourth aim it could either join or

13 associate or have some special relationship with Serbia. And the fifth

14 aim was to divide Sarajevo between the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian

15 Muslims. And the sixth and last aim was to hold a veto power over any

16 serious actions that would be taken or contemplated by the central

17 government in Bosnia, because they knew there would be a Central Bosnian

18 government since the state had existed. It was already a member of the UN

19 and was recognised internationally.

20 So those were the six war aims of the Bosnian Serbs.

21 Q. When you talk about the territory and the recognised entity, what

22 became known either then or later as the Republika Srpska, was there any

23 aspect or dimension of the Bosnian Serb objectives or aims having to deal

24 with ethnicity or the demographic make-up of the citizenship, if you will,

25 or the members, the persons who would live in this territory?

Page 16686

1 A. Yes. They made it clear, abundantly clear, that their goal was a

2 homogeneous state, a state of Serbs and for Serbs. And one also observed

3 that because we were aware of the ethnic cleansing that was going on.

4 Q. And you're saying now that not only did you come to know that as

5 an objective, but you actually saw conduct -- are you telling us you saw

6 conduct consistent with or evidencing that objective?

7 A. Oh, yes. It was probably the most attention-getting activity of

8 the Bosnian Serbs was their ethnic cleansing activities.

9 Q. Now, let me turn then next to the objectives or aims that you came

10 to know held by the Bosnian Croat party to these proceedings.

11 A. The Bosnian Croats made clear to us that they also wished to have

12 their own entity in -- in and on the territory of the Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was what they called Herceg-Bosna. They had

14 created a -- a unit. It can be called a community, later a republic.

15 They said, "We speak on behalf of Herceg-Bosna." They were quite clear

16 about that, and they also wanted a special relationship with Croatia or

17 the possibility to join Croatia formally at some later date.

18 Q. Did you learn anything about their aims or objectives in terms of

19 geography or territory?

20 A. Yes. The principal areas of interest to Mate Boban and the

21 Bosnian Croats were, as you might expect, the areas where Bosnian Croats

22 live, and this was primarily the -- in Herzegovina along the Dinaric

23 mountains, the border between the Dalmatian coast and Bosnia. And the

24 other major region was the Posavina, the area south of the Sava River in

25 Bosnia but directly adjacent to Croatia. And then they had very strong

Page 16687

1 interests in Central Bosnia, areas like Travnik, Jajce, Vares.

2 President Tudjman was particularly interested in Vares. He would raise

3 that subject with me frequently. And so Central Bosnia was also an area

4 of interest. The three areas were Herzegovina, Central Bosnia, and the

5 Posavina.

6 Q. And in connection with the territory, did you and Secretary Vance

7 and Lord Owen come to recognise or identify that territory, the desired

8 territory, with any concepts or maps that you had been familiar with

9 before?

10 A. Well, we knew of this Macek-Cvetkovic Agreement, and that was one

11 aspect. And we also learned directly from the parties. We were, after

12 all, negotiating with them about the future of this area, and they made

13 clear what they wanted. Indeed they gave us their own maps. Each of the

14 three parties would periodically bring us map about where they thought the

15 boundaries, if there were to be boundaries - I repeat, if there were to be

16 boundaries - where they were to be set. So we had a direct knowledge from

17 Karadzic, Boban, Izetbegovic, you know, of the areas that were of

18 particular interest to them.

19 Q. For --

20 A. I should -- may I add something?

21 Q. Please.

22 A. Just to give an example for Your Honours, it was known, and this

23 was a problem between the Muslims, that the Cazinska Krajina, what came to

24 be called during the war the Bihac pocket, but Cazinska Krajina was an

25 area of deep concern to the government because in the Cazinska Krajina was

Page 16688

1 an alternate Bosnian Muslim leader who was no friend of the administration

2 in Sarajevo, and they were no friend of his, a gentleman named Fikret

3 Abdic. And President Tudjman was also keep concerned about the fate of

4 the Cazinska Krajina, the so-called Bihac pocket, not because there were

5 Croats living there, there were very few, but it's the point of Bosnia

6 that juts into Croatia. So it's of direct interest to the Croatian

7 government. And then we must bear in mind that President Tudjman was,

8 after all, a military man and very aware of transport. And as he would

9 say to me more than once, the transportation from -- the roads, the

10 railroads, roads from Zagreb, from Karlovac down to the Dalmatian coast

11 went through the Cazinska Krajina. That is to say, went through Western

12 Bosnia.

13 So these were the constant concerns, and one did not need to infer

14 the importance of areas to the warring parties because they made clear to

15 us what their concerns were.

16 Q. Before we -- we will look at, in fact, one of the maps at the

17 moment, but can we -- before we go on to the map, in describing the aims

18 or objectives of the Bosnian Serb party, which you did a few minutes ago,

19 and the Bosnian Croat party, which you've just done, can you tell us

20 whether to your knowledge and in your experience were the objectives of

21 those two parties more similar or different?

22 A. Excuse me, the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Serbs?

23 Q. Yes, in terms of their objectives as they became known to you.

24 A. Yes. There were similarities. There were congruities with

25 respect to the creation of their own separate state; and second, the

Page 16689

1 possibility of joining the mother state, for the Bosnian Serbs Serbia, for

2 the Bosnian Croats, Croatia, and then for the desire that their states be

3 as ethnically homogeneous as possible. So there were overlaps as between

4 the Bosnian Serb and Bosnian Croat war aims in that respect.

5 MR. SCOTT: Can I ask that the witness be provided the Exhibit P

6 09276, which is the book of maps, and if it's more simple, I can -- the

7 Prosecution can provide that, and specifically map -- I'll ask you to look

8 at map 4, which is page 5 of the actual -- in e-court, I think it's page 5

9 because of the cover page.

10 Perhaps we could centre the one -- one of the maps more clearly on

11 the page and as much as possible in e-court. Maybe zoom out a bit, just a

12 little bit, if we can. Thank you very much.

13 Q. Sir, several times already this afternoon you have made reference

14 to the Cvetkovic-Macek Agreement or the Hrvatska Banovina. Can you tell

15 the Judges whether the territory you associate with those -- with that

16 agreement and that area, is that shown on the map that is currently

17 displayed, you have in front of you as map 4 to Prosecution Exhibit P

18 09276?

19 A. Yes, that is the map of the Banovina.

20 Q. And can you tell us, when you referred to earlier -- you said

21 there were several territorial aims. There were the area of Herzegovina,

22 Central Bosnia, and an area called the Posavina. Let's start with the

23 last area. If you have a pointer there, if you could point somewhere to

24 the area when you call -- when you say the Posavina, what area are you

25 talking about?

Page 16690

1 A. The Posavina is -- constitutes the border, the extreme eastern,

2 northern border between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's this

3 area.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I just noticed myself I was in e-court,

6 but in order to see what the witness is doing I'm looking at the ELMO,

7 now, view.

8 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. I think most of us in the court were looking

9 at a different video image than the one you were pointing at. Could you

10 point again at the area called the Posavina.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. All right.

13 A. May I add --

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. -- that it was an area of vital concern also to the Bosnian Serbs

16 because it was the centre of the so-called corridor connecting Belgrade

17 and Banja Luka, that is to say connecting the capital of Serbia with the

18 putative capital of the Republika Srpska. There was much suggestion,

19 heavy, heavy discussion about this area during the entire period of the

20 negotiations. Indeed, it is not resolved to this day the status of parts

21 of the Posavina.

22 Q. If I can just have a moment. I've given you my book of maps, sir,

23 and I'm looking in e-court for another page of that same booklet. If

24 you'll give me one moment, please.

25 MR. SCOTT: If -- perhaps if I could have the booklet for a moment

Page 16691

1 it might be quicker. Thanks very much.

2 Q. If I can direct your attention to what's been admitted as map 6 of

3 that Exhibit P 09276.

4 Now, on this particular map do you see that the Banovina map, has

5 been overlaid on the territories claimed by the Croatian community of

6 Posavina, and the Croatian community of and the Croatian Community of

7 Herceg-Bosna?

8 A. Is there a question?

9 Q. Yes. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you come to know -- did you and Secretary Vance and Lord

12 Owen come to know of this relationship between the territories, the

13 territorial aims of the Bosnian Croat party during the period of your

14 negotiations with them?

15 A. Yes, indeed. As I previously mentioned, Vares, which is over here

16 north of Sarajevo, was a constant subject raised with me by President

17 Tudjman. Jajce, which I already mentioned, is and was very important.

18 There's a waterfall and a lot of waterpower around Jajce. And from the

19 economic point of view, it's very important both for Bosnia and for

20 Croatia, because much of the electric power in Croatia comes from power

21 plants around the area of Jajce. It also has, of course, for all

22 Yugoslavs of a certain age an importance because it was in Jajce in

23 November 1943, during World War II, that Tito declared the existence of

24 the AVNOJ republic, that is to say the Partisan republic. And that day

25 became the national day of Yugoslavia and was the national day from 1945

Page 16692

1 till 1991. For all I know, it may still be the national day in Belgrade.

2 But these are very sensitive areas, and so this was well-known.

3 And looking up north, Orasje and Odzak and Bosanski Samac, this

4 area was also very sensitive to Mate Boban and to President Tudjman.

5 Q. Now, in reference to President Tudjman, can you tell us, and think

6 we're done with the maps unless the Judges have questions about the maps

7 before I have the usher return to her seat. Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Sir, you just mentioned that these -- some of these areas, Vares,

9 the Posavina, were of particular concern to President Tudjman. Did you

10 have various conversations and meetings directly with President Tudjman on

11 these topics, these and other parts of the work you were trying to carry

12 out at the time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did he make known to you his views and the relationship

15 between his views and those of the Bosnian Croat party?

16 A. They were identical.

17 Q. And how did that manifest itself, or how did you know that?

18 A. He said so.

19 Q. In your travels -- well, during the time you were carrying out

20 this mission, the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia or

21 ICFY, did you have occasion to travel about the various parts of the

22 former Yugoslavia at that time?

23 A. Yes. We visited all the capitals, of course. I would say we

24 travelled more, certainly I did, more in Croatia than in any other area,

25 and that's because the fighting in Croatia was very severe. It preceded

Page 16693

1 Bosnia, so we were there earlier, and then we had created the four

2 UN-protected areas in Croatia which I visited regularly. And that was not

3 hard to do. They were all adjacent to Bosnia. And in Bosnia we were --

4 largely visited Sarajevo and other areas as well, "Jablanica, Vares,

5 Kresevo, Visoko." Jablanica, Vares, Kresevo, Visoko, several areas.

6 Q. Let me ask you this before moving on to another topic. In your

7 travels in Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you see anything, did you observe

8 yourself during your travels anything that manifested itself as showing an

9 orientation or an allegiance to Croatia at any part of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 where you travelled?

11 A. Yes. That was self-evident. On one occasion we travelled by road

12 from Split to Sarajevo because the airport was closed due to heavy Serb

13 shelling, and there were never many flights into Sarajevo, which of course

14 was being besieged by the Serbs. We flew in on UN flights, but in this

15 case we couldn't do even that. So we flew from, I believe, Zagreb. But

16 in any case, we drove from Split to Sarajevo and on the main roads, and we

17 were greeted at the border between Bosnia and Croatia by Mate Boban. And

18 there was a lovely table spread with very good Croatian wine, and we all

19 had a drink and then continued on. And we observed the Croatian flag was

20 flying, the red checker flag, which we were quite used to seeing. And

21 anyway, we proceeded north. We saw some Mujahedin at one point, Muslims

22 from the Arab world with their green headbands and yellow printing in the

23 Arabic alphabet, firing guns into the area, driving by on trucks. One

24 always had the impression that they fired more into the air than against

25 the enemy, but that's a separate subject. And we were able to observe --

Page 16694

1 in fact, we commented to each other, Secretary Vance and I, at the time

2 that the one felt as though one was in Croatia. It wasn't until we were

3 physically on the outskirts of Sarajevo that you didn't know you were in

4 Croatia.

5 Q. And how so? I mean, what --

6 A. Well, the attitude. All the people who were with us, the people

7 on the side of the road, the flags that were flying were Croatian. If you

8 stopped to buy a Coke Cola you paid in, kuna, the Croatian currency, not

9 the Bosnian dinar.

10 Q. Let me ask you about -- let me now ask you if you could go to the

11 first instance to one of your are diaries, Exhibit P 00534. Let me ask

12 you some questions about some entries in your diary, please. And if I

13 can -- if you go to tab -- your tab P 00534, and in particular I'm going

14 to be making references, Ambassador, to the -- what we call the ERN

15 numbers as page numbers, and you will see on each page - and sometimes

16 they're easier to find than others - there's a stamp. These begin with --

17 all these series of numbers begin with an R, and if I can please ask you

18 to go, in particular, to -- I'll wait for a moment until you catch up.

19 Also a date. The date may help since, of course, the material is in

20 chronological order. So I'm going to be referring you to the 11th of

21 October, 1992. The entry for that date 11th of October begins on page,

22 and again I'm referring to the R number, R0164042. If you'd find that.

23 And then specifically my question to you is on the following page,

24 R0164043, and on the right side of that page, on the right side of your

25 notebook, essentially, at the top of that page starts with the

Page 16695

1 word "Karadzic." Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, before I ask you particular questions about your entries, can

4 you remind or tell the Judges, please, what particular meetings or

5 conversations you were having on the 11th of October, 1992, just to put

6 this in context?

7 A. Well, as you can see, we were in Geneva. It was Sunday, and

8 Secretary Vance and I and the head of our working group met with Karadzic.

9 We did so frequently, and this was one of those meetings.

10 Q. The entry that I just particularly directed your attention to on

11 the page that starts under the heading "Karadzic," says "Kara." Is

12 K-a-r-a an abbreviation?

13 A. That's Karadzic.

14 Q. And it says "Main problem, Tito's borders. But if Serbs and

15 Croats are clever, exchange borders voluntarily, this exchange would

16 help." Can you tell us please what was being discussed in that regard?

17 A. Well, yes. He was -- he was essentially describing the Graz

18 Agreement to us. And being a Bosnian Serb, he had no love for Marsal Tito

19 who was half Slovenian and half Croat. So he says that the main problem

20 is Tito's borders. You see, the Bosnian Serbs felt they had been done

21 dirt to by Tito in 1945. In any case, that's what he means, that if the

22 Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats are clever, those -- they can cooperate

23 with each other, they can basically have what -- what they talked about at

24 Graz, namely to partition Bosnia between them.

25 Q. Immediately under the entry that I just directed your attention

Page 16696

1 to, it says: "(Draws map by hand)" Is that a reference to something you

2 did?

3 A. No, he did. You can see it's under the entry of Karadzic. Yes,

4 Karadzic drew a map what the -- of Bosnia by hand, what Bosnia would look

5 like when it was partitioned between the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.

6 Q. And do you have any recollection generally of what that map looked

7 like?

8 A. Certainly, it was basically the same one that President Tudjman

9 drew in 1995.

10 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honours. I wonder if we could just

11 be clear where the asterisks come from. We do see asterisks at various

12 points throughout this document and, in particular, on this page.

13 MR. SCOTT: I will be happy to inquire.

14 Q. Ambassador, you just heard the comment by counsel. Can you

15 tell -- can you tell the Judges what the various asterisk markings on this

16 and other pages of your diaries indicate?

17 A. Yes, it's quite simple. They indicate points of particular

18 interest.

19 Q. And when did you put thee asterisks on your diary?

20 A. At the time they were said or as I looked at the document right

21 after the meeting. So they were identically -- really contemporaneous.

22 And if you look at the asterisks, you can see the points being made there

23 are important points.

24 Q. Let me then go back to -- we'll be looking at other entries in

25 your diaries as we continue through your testimony, but let me go back --

Page 16697

1 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry if I'm -- interrupt -- we were talking

2 about maps.

3 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And the witness gave a somewhat cryptic answer in

5 that he referred to a comparison map that Tudjman drew in 1995, and which

6 I do not think is presently before the Chamber. So perhaps the witness

7 could - could - show, on one of the maps we have, what it was.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour. Your Honour, I believe the gentleman

9 is trying to bring in the so-called map that was on the napkin when Paddy

10 Ashdown, who was heavily drinking at the time and having a conversation

11 with Tudjman, who doesn't speak English, that's the conversation the

12 gentleman is speaking about. And as I understand it, the -- this

13 gentleman was not present at the time. So you do need some foundation.

14 One, did he actually see the map, did he actually see the map, and where

15 is this map? But I -- as far as I know, there's already a decision by the

16 Trial Chamber that this is speculative in nature. The question was what

17 it would look like ten years from now, and so on and so forth. So based

18 on that, Your Honour, I think this is one way of trying to sneak in the

19 work of the Prosecution. Basically, I would imagine, because he has been

20 proofed heavily by the Prosecution because for the first time we're

21 hearing things --

22 MR. SCOTT: Objection.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: -- that are not in his statement.

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, my thoughts went in the same

25 direction but with a quite different idea. I think that, Mr. Okun, you

Page 16698

1 were there and you saw that map being drawn by Karadzic, and I would like

2 you to look at one of the maps we have here and draw what you have seen

3 yourself at that moment but not reproduced in your diary without any

4 reference to any possible later map drawn by anyone at any occasion. I am

5 fully -- I was very, very careful exactly to avoid what you warn us

6 against, Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, before he does that, and I think

8 that he should -- and I think he should do that and I'm sure that the

9 Ambassador's quite capable of doing that, but I want to make a record; Mr.

10 Karnavas is always talking about making a record. Your Honour, it is

11 inappropriate for counsel -- he wants to exclude the testimony, exclude

12 the evidence of this but yet engages in character assassination against a

13 person who is not in the courtroom about heavily drink, about who was

14 doing what and saying what. And, you know, it's ironic that we have this

15 speculation by counsel when, in fact, we have Mr. Ashdown's testimony

16 available to us, and this whole question, this whole -- excuse me. This

17 whole question about drinking and all that was discussed in open court in

18 the other cases. Judge Jorda had all of that in front him. Judge Jorda

19 accepted all this testimony -- testimony was accepted in the Blaskic case,

20 in the Kordic case, in the Tuta Stela case. It is odd -- I have to

21 observe again, it is odd that it was relevant in all those cases but not

22 relevant in this case. But in any event, my point is, Mr. Karnavas should

23 not get up every time on his feet and then attack the witness -- a person

24 who is not here and at the same time say, "Well, we shouldn't look at the

25 actual evidence itself."

Page 16699

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. Ashdown by his own admission said that the wine

2 was flowing. That's what -- that's a quote.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: If I may. Let's not perhaps transfer the -- the

4 theatre of war to a place where my questions definitely did not want to

5 put it. And, Mr. Scott, this reaction of Mr. Karnavas was to a question

6 of mine rather than -- than to you raising a point.

7 So could the witness be shown a map and then tentatively,

8 according to his memory, demonstrate what he remembers Mr. Karadzic at --

9 on the 11th of -- what was it? On the 11th of October, 1992, a Sunday,

10 drew in his presence.

11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, but I will have to obtain a clean

12 map to do that. I have nothing available to me at the moment without

13 making a copy first.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think the -- this witness has a level of

15 faculty of abstraction that any map you take where you have the area on it

16 he will be able to abstract from what he sees there and -- and just from

17 his memory draw that borderline which he recalls, and I see that he's

18 nodding to this --

19 MR. SCOTT: Do you want him to draw just on a blank piece of paper

20 of Bosnia and the lines? Is that what you're saying?

21 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I thought you could show him any of the maps we

22 have here which has not too much -- let me just --

23 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I don't have a clean -- I don't have an

24 extra copy of the map in the courtroom. That's my problem.

25 JUDGE TRECHSEL: And you have no --

Page 16700

1 MR. SCOTT: If you want me to stop and have a copy made and bring

2 it into the courtroom I'll be happy to do that.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: That might be a solution had unless anybody has a

4 map which --

5 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I have a map in my briefcase.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Why don't you use it.

7 THE WITNESS: It's a simple -- a simple map of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Ambassador.

9 There are two other individuals who would like to take the floor.

10 Mr. Praljak is on his feet and Ms. Alaburic, too.

11 Mr. Praljak, what is it that you wanted to say? And it should

12 concern you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] What does a conversation in

15 1995 have to do with anything when all international agreements --

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Not an issue, Mr. Praljak. This is not a

17 necessary intervention. Please, you are disturbing the course of the

18 trial. We are not talking about 1995.

19 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] But we're talking about a

20 plan that President Tudjman apparently had with Ashdown. That was in

21 1995.

22 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry. It is entirely wrong. We are talking

23 about a map on which Mr. Karadzic on the 11th of October, 1992, drew a

24 line and that is all, and I have said so quite clearly, I think. If you

25 had been attentive, you would have been aware of this.

Page 16701

1 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] That's correct,

2 Judge Trechsel, but at the same time the question is whether that map

3 corresponds to the map from 1995 when --

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No, Mr. Praljak. That is not the question. You

5 may -- you may have this question, but it's not the one that is on the

6 table before the Chamber at this moment.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, to conclude.

8 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Perhaps I

9 could contribute to this discussion.

10 In my opinion, Mr. Karadzic's words transcribed here, and they

11 concern the borders of all the republics of the former Yugoslavia. And if

12 we are discussing Tito's borders, we are discussing the borders of all the

13 republics of the former Yugoslavia. If we have a look at the way the

14 territory has been divided amongst the Croats and the Serbs, and if we are

15 aware of the contexts in which they were discussions about Yugoslavia at

16 the time, we know that we're referring to parts of Croatia and Serbia or

17 Montenegro that were intended to be exchanged. Baranja or Prevlaka and

18 towards the border with Montenegro. If we continue to have a look at what

19 Mr. Karadzic was discussing, we can see that he referred to Kosovo, to

20 Montenegro, et cetera. So I think that it's a matter of redrawing the

21 borders in the territory of Yugoslavia as a whole. Thank you very much.

22 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I have obtained a -- have here an extra

23 copy of a map that we have prepared, which is numbered for the record 0 --

24 P 09841, and since I have an extra copy I don't mind if the witness marks

25 on that and then we can have it made an IC number.

Page 16702

1 Q. So, Witness, if you can --

2 MR. SCOTT: Could the map first be put directly in front of the

3 witness so the witness can first orient himself and make any markings, and

4 then we can put it on the ELMO.

5 THE WITNESS: May I make two remarks very brief. First the

6 Security Council, right when Karadzic talked about Tito's borders, he was

7 talking loosely. That's the way Karadzic always spoke, speaking very

8 broadly, about all of Yugoslavia. The map he drew by hand in front of us

9 was of Bosnia alone.

10 A second point, President Tito [sic], in contradistinction to what

11 the learned counsel says about his English, speaks good English. I had

12 numerous conversations with him, sitting more closely to the president

13 than I am --

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Are you talking about Marsal Tito?

15 THE WITNESS: No, President Tudjman.

16 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you, because there was a mistake in the

17 record.

18 THE WITNESS: President Tudjman did not speak fluent English but

19 he spoke good English, and I had occasion to discuss many matters with him

20 directly in English.


22 Q. Sir, with that in mind --

23 A. And on the map -- yes, on the map.

24 Q. Could I just -- no one's going to see it right now, but I first

25 want you to do is take a marker -- first look at the map. Make sure that

Page 16703

1 you've oriented yourself to the map?

2 A. I'm very familiar with this map.

3 Q. I know you are. But what I would like you to do is make -- what

4 the Judges have asked us to do is make markings, so draw the line --

5 recreate the map as best you can recall. That's what Judge Trechsel has

6 asked you to do. So you're going to be provided a marker.

7 A. Yes. Starting in the south it would go along the border of the

8 Neretva, then east to cover the entire Drina valley through Semberija, up

9 to the Posavina, and then across to something like this, and then down

10 along the Una River, so it would be roughly like that. Think of a

11 horseshoe, the best way to describe it. Indeed, the word that Bosnians

12 and others used it. The Bosnian Serbs talked about their horseshoe. So

13 that was the area.

14 Q. On the line that you've drawn and we --

15 A. Excuse me. I should have gone this way with this. Sorry. It

16 included all -- everything that's blue on this map. It included

17 everything that's blue and quite a lot of green. The green is the -- are

18 the Muslim areas, and you'll notice in particular, if I may just for a

19 moment point out the area around the Drina. This was the area of heaviest

20 ethnic cleansing by the Bosnian Serbs.

21 Q. All right. Now, sir, you've drawn -- what you've drawn on the map

22 just so we can now ask some questions about it, the -- I'll use your

23 terminology and say kind of an upside down horseshoe with the top of the

24 horseshoe as a number 5 in the area and the open end of the horseshoe of

25 what would be considered the border, the south-west border of

Page 16704

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if you will; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The area outside the horseshoe -- if we talk about the area inside

4 the horseshoe and outside the horseshoe, who -- according to Karadzic and

5 your understanding of the Serb position at the time, who would have the

6 territory outside the horseshoe?

7 A. You mean the non-Serb occupied territory?

8 Q. Well, you've drawn a horseshoe?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The area --

11 A. Which they call Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Who would have the territory outside the horseshoe.

13 A. That is not inside. Yes. That would be Croatian with a -- with a

14 small Muslim area. As I mentioned earlier, one of their war aims was to

15 divide Sarajevo so there would be a portion of Sarajevo and surrounding

16 areas that would be Muslim, and basically the Muslim area, as the Bosnian

17 Serbs envisaged it, would run from Sarajevo on the south to Tuzla which

18 you see in the north-east right next to 4 and 5 you see a green spot.

19 That's Tuzla. So you would go from Sarajevo to Tuzla across to Zenica and

20 then back to Sarajevo. So there would be a very small Diamond-shaped area

21 that the Bosnian Serbs would have accorded to the Bosnian Muslims and the

22 rest of the area outside the horseshoe would be for the Bosnian Croats.

23 Q. All right. I'm not sure that we're -- again that's the problem --

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think I see what's happening,

25 actually. I think that Prosecution counsel, when he's talking about the

Page 16705

1 horseshoe, he's talking about the line but the witness is understanding

2 the area outside the line. So they're talking about different horseshoes,

3 which is the reason Mr. Scott is looking a bit exasperated because Mr.

4 Okun's answers are not quite matching his questions. They're all to do

5 with horseshoes.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Stewart; I do appreciate that.

8 Q. Sir, what -- I think counsel's right and that's the problem of

9 sometimes withdrawing maps in the courtroom like this. If I -- if you

10 look -- when I call the inside of the horseshoe the area number 10, I'm

11 saying the area -- see the number 10?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'm calling that area inside the horseshoe.

14 A. Yes, so am I.

15 Q. The area outside the horseshoe is the area that has most of number

16 2, most of number 4. That's outside the horseshoe?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The area outside the horseshoe, 2, 3, 4, 6 going around the

19 perimeter?

20 A. Yeah, mm-hmm.

21 Q. Would that be -- who would that territory --

22 A. That would be Republika Srpska.

23 Q. And the area inside the area -- the horseshoe, 10, 9, 7, 5, who

24 would have that territory?

25 A. That would be the area for the Bosnian Croats except for the small

Page 16706

1 diamond that I just described, the area roughly from Sarajevo to Tuzla to

2 notes back to Sarajevo would be a Muslim reservation.

3 Q. All right. As long as we've engaged in this exercise to this

4 point, perhaps we might as well have you mark this area that you say would

5 be the Muslim area or enclave. So I'm going to ask you now to take the

6 manager and do that as best you can.

7 A. That triangle, in Dr. Karadzic's mind, would be Muslim. The rest

8 of the country would be divided between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian

9 Serbs. That was Dr. Karadzic's point.

10 Q. Now, I'm moving away from the map so we're --

11 MR. SCOTT: Judge Trechsel, do you have any additional questions

12 about the map?

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you very much. And I hope this wasn't too

14 disruptive.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

16 Q. Now, if we can go back to the work of the --

17 MR. SCOTT: We need an IC number, Your Honour, before we proceed.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have an

19 IC number, please. Can we have the map signed, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit IC 520.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ambassador, could you please put

22 today's date, 2nd April 2007, and also could you please sign the document

23 for us. 2nd April.

24 Mr. Scott, please continue.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 16707

1 Q. All right. Sir, moving back to the process of the International

2 Conference on the Former Yugoslavia itself, just to bring us back to where

3 we were, we talked about the formation of the conference, the working

4 groups of the conference, who the principal representatives of the three

5 parties were to the conference, and as the work of the conference

6 continued into the fall of 1992, can you tell the Chamber whether

7 something called constitutional principles or constitutional framework was

8 developed in negotiations or discussions with the parties?

9 A. Yes. That was an important milestone when the conference

10 developed and put on the table the constitutional framework or

11 constitutional principles, as we usually referred to them. That occurred

12 on 27 October 1992. And these were, as you can understand, framework

13 principles to be the guiding rules, the overall guide for the future of

14 Bosnia.

15 Q. Can you tell us kind of in a shorthand way, and we will look at

16 some of these principles as they later evolved in the course of your

17 testimony later, but what were the types of concepts that were involved in

18 these principles?

19 A. Well, Bosnia was to retain its sovereignty within its

20 internationally recognised borders. The state was to be democratic,

21 highly democratic, decentralised. The ethnic principle de-emphasised,

22 that is to say multi-ethnic state, democratically decentralised, and also

23 progressively demilitarised. And the formation on the ground, so to

24 speak, the structure, had 10 provinces, including one for Sarajevo with a

25 special status, and the provinces had a good deal of responsibility in

Page 16708

1 this plan. They did not, however, have the right -- according to the

2 constitutional framework, they did not have the right to establish

3 relations, form relations with any foreign country, nor did they have the

4 right to form relations with any international organisation.

5 Q. Now, in addition to the constitutional principals, just to put the

6 various components of the negotiations, the principal parts, if you will,

7 of the negotiations on the table, so to speak, was the -- we've just spent

8 a few -- some minutes talking about a map. Was the "map" part of the

9 ongoing negotiations, the map of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

10 A. Oh, yes, indeed. The discussions of the map were continuous and

11 contentious.

12 Q. And was a third significant component of these ongoing

13 negotiations something called the military arrangements?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did that involve?

16 A. Well, that involved the -- as I said, the progressive

17 demilitarisation of the country, complete cease-fire, of course, to start

18 with, the removal and secure cantonment of heavy weapons, military roads,

19 civilian roads. It was a lengthy exercise the development of the military

20 arrangements.

21 Q. Can I ask you, sir, just then as -- again as a matter of the

22 process, can you look at Exhibit P 00752. And I believe I can see from

23 where I am that you have that document. Can you tell us what that is?

24 A. Well, it's a Resolution of the United Nations Security Council,

25 number 787, adopted on the 16th of November, 1992, and deals with the --

Page 16709

1 the situation in the former Yugoslavia.

2 Q. Let me ask you to look at page 5, paragraph 20 of the document,

3 please.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were the co-chairmen Secretary Vance and Lord Owen making reports

6 to the Security Council throughout this period?

7 A. Yes. You'll notice that paragraph 20 says, and I quote, the

8 Security Council: "Expresses its appreciation for the report presented to

9 the council by the co-chairmen of the steering committee of the

10 International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia -" that's Owen and

11 Vance "- and requests the Secretary-General to keep the council regularly

12 informed of developments and of the work of the conference," and of course

13 we did so.

14 Q. Can I now ask you to go back to -- or go to Exhibit P 00829, again

15 one of your diaries. And in particular, in referring to the numbers that

16 have been stamped on the various pages, if you could please find -- and

17 I'll refer to the last four numbers just for simplicity's section. 4173,

18 which appears to be a discussion or a meeting on the 28th of November,

19 1992. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you first of all set the scene for us as to where and what was

22 this meeting about? Who was the meeting with?

23 A. Yes. President Tudjman Secretary Vance and his wife, Lord Owen

24 and his wife, me and my wife, and some -- a few senior members of the

25 Croatian government, Gojko Susak, for example, to enjoy ourselves on

Page 16710

1 Brioni and have -- in a nice beautiful Mediterranean setting to discuss

2 the conflict.

3 Q. Now, throughout -- perhaps throughout your diaries generally to

4 assist the Judges in reading these documents, and in this entry in

5 particular, there are various entries on the page where you have used the

6 initial -- the capital letters or initials FT. Who is FT?

7 A. FT is the president of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman.

8 Q. You've also used the capital letters GS. Who was GS?

9 A. He's Gojko Susak.

10 Q. And who was Mr. Susak?

11 A. Susak was President Tudjman's closest advisor and the defence

12 minister.

13 Q. Of the Republic of Croatia?

14 A. Of the Republic of Croatia, yes.

15 Q. Now, on the -- looking at the document, and again we've got

16 essentially on all these items we've got essentially two pages of your

17 diary side by side copied on one A4 sheet. Looking at the right -- the --

18 excuse me. Looking at the page on the left, at the bottom of that page,

19 do you see:

20 "FT- Muslims want jihad.

21 "GS- must go getting billions from Arabs."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Okay. On page 4173, on the left -- bottom left side of the page.

25 A. Ah, the bottom left.

Page 16711

1 Q. My apologies if I misdirected you.

2 A. Sorry. Yes, I see that.

3 Q. Going to the top of the -- right side of the page, "Croats/Serb

4 relations."

5 A. Mm-hmm.

6 Q. Is it correct it says: "All agree they are key to solving ex-Yugo

7 problem"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. "FT says he supports this idea - for more than a decade; even

10 wrote about it." Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell the Judges what was being discussed in this context

13 and what was the subject of Croat/Serb relations?

14 A. Two aspects here were being discussed. First of all, the

15 situation in Bosnia. Since that's where the war was, that was the main

16 object of this part of this discussion. And then Tudjman who spoke in

17 broad historical terms made allusion to the history of the former

18 Yugoslavia with respect, of course, to the situation as between the Croat

19 people and the Serb people, because they are two -- overwhelmingly the two

20 majority peoples in the former Yugoslavia.

21 Q. When it's attributed to President Tudjman, you said, "for more

22 than a decade, even wrote about it," what he's talking about?

23 A. He's talking about Bosnia, because he had written about

24 partitioning Bosnia as between the Croats and the Serbs.

25 Q. And then below that entry you have the initials again GS, and

Page 16712

1 that's again Mr. Susak, the defence minister?

2 A. Yes, mm-hmm.

3 Q. "Problem is we can't do it. Looks like collusion and future

4 partition of BiH."

5 A. Yes, one sees how frank everybody was in discussion because Gojko

6 Susak says the problem is, you know, it won't look good to do it too

7 openly or even too soon. Saying that's what he means. He says it

8 directly. It would look like collusion --

9 Q. Collusion between --

10 A. Of course, it wouldn't just look like collusion, it would be

11 collusion.

12 Q. Collusion between who?

13 A. The Croats and the Serbs.

14 Q. Further down the page GS talks again. It says, "GS stresses need

15 for quiet, serious, contacts with Serbs." What was that about?

16 A. Well, Gojko Susak was a very sophisticated man. He's dead now.

17 He was born in Grude in Herzegovina, so he took a direct strong interest,

18 to put it mildly, a strong interest in the Bosnian Croat cause. He was a

19 Bosnian Croat. He later emigrated to Canada and became a Canadian

20 citizen. He was a very sophisticated man. And so he says here that the

21 way to go about the business of partitioning Bosnia with the Serbs is to

22 do it in a quiet fashion.

23 Q. Can I ask you please to then go on to the next page --

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour, where does it say that?

25 That they're going to partition -- I fail to see that.

Page 16713

1 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, may I answer that directly in order to

2 save time?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I want to --

4 THE WITNESS: May I draw your attention to President Tudjman

5 saying he supports the idea. Everybody understood he was talking about

6 partition because the very next person to speak, Gojko Susak, says, "The

7 problem is we can't do it," and that's very clear. He's not talking about

8 NASA and a trip to the moon --

9 MR. KARNAVAS: May I remind the gentleman that it begins with the

10 lifting of the embargo of arms. You know, that's -- if you look at the

11 continuity of the discussion.

12 THE WITNESS: No, I beg your pardon.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I beg your pardon, too, sir Could I ask --

14 MR. SCOTT: Well, perhaps this is better for cross-examination.

15 THE WITNESS: I was there when this happened.

16 MR. SCOTT: Exactly.

17 THE WITNESS: I wrote it as it happened. I put triple asterisks,

18 for Mr. Stewart's benefit. You notice triple asterisks and underlining

19 this phrase.


21 Q. Ambassador, let me ask the obvious question: Why did you put

22 three or four asterisks on both sides of the page on this part of your

23 note?

24 A. Because the Bosnian Croat, or I should say Croat Serbian including

25 Bosnian Croat, Bosnian Serbian desire to partition Bosnia-Herzegovina was

Page 16714

1 well-known and very important.

2 Q. Let me direct your attention to the next page of the document,

3 the -- when I say the next page, it's 4174. The next -- essentially the

4 next two pages of your diary, still dated the 28th of November, 1992. On

5 the left side of the page, please, can I direct your attention to this

6 part, in the section that begins headed on the left side of the page FT.

7 Do you see the part it says, "I discussed BiH with Milo and Izzie."

8 A. That's Milosevic and Izetbegovic.

9 Q. "Before the current war and said there are two possibilities."

10 Why don't you just tell us instead of me reading it. They're your

11 words. It's your writing. What were the two possibilities?

12 A. The two possibilities were what President Tudjman called a

13 confederal Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say the State of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina would exist but there would be -- it would be a deeply

15 divided state with three regions, so to speak. The other one would be

16 more formal where you would divide Bosnia-Herzegovina into three parts.

17 Basically the Serb part -- the Bosnian Serb part joining Serbia and the

18 Croatian -- Croat -- Bosnian Croat side joining Croatia, and then as he

19 says, this would leave a Muslim patch - his word, patch - in the middle.

20 And if Your Honours will recall the map I drew a few moments ago, I

21 sketched out for you the line Sarajevo-Tuzla-Zenica-Sarajevo, that

22 triangle in the middle that's what President Tudjman meant.

23 Q. And --

24 A. And if I may say, you notice a few sentences earlier right in the

25 middle, the first thing he talked about, President Tudjman, the first

Page 16715

1 thing that he mentioned was the Cvetkovic-Macek Agreement. You see the

2 sentence, if I may quote: "Croatia is smaller today than when it entered

3 Yugoslavia in 1919 and smaller than in 1939, the Macek agreement." That's

4 the Cvetkovic-Macek Agreement. Macek was the Croat so it's understandable

5 that Tudjman would quote his name and not the Serb.

6 Q. When going down below that it says, then, after the patch, the

7 Muslim patch it says, "but now after war that's academic." So what was

8 being said in that aspect, if you recall?

9 A. Well, what he meant there was that there was going to be difficult

10 to achieve because of the -- of the conflict and because of all the

11 assistance the Bosnian Muslims were getting in order to maintain

12 themselves. But it remained a goal. And he goes right on to say -- the

13 very next line says: "The only good solution," this is President Tudjman

14 talking. "The only good solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina was the 1939

15 agreement. It came after 20 years of failure to deal with

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then Tito disastrously made ABiH and made the Muslims

17 a nation." By that President Tudjman means and of course everybody at the

18 table knew exactly what he meant, that the Muslims in the 1970s were

19 declared to be a constituent people of Yugoslavia because the constituent

20 peoples had specific rights in Yugoslavia. They had group rights, for

21 example. They did not need or ever claim minority rights, that certain

22 rights inhered to the "sastavni ne lod [phoen]," their word for

23 "constituent people." And so elevating the Muslims to the status of a

24 constituent people which Tito's government did in, I believe, 1974 was a

25 serious step, and it empowered the Muslims to a certain point, which

Page 16716

1 President Tudjman objected to, as you see here.

2 Q. If I can ask you then going to -- in -- again using the same

3 numbers, 4176, which appears to be -- you can confirm, please, if it's

4 correct. This is still -- we're still continuing on the 28th of November,

5 1992.

6 A. On the left-hand side, the 28th, yes.

7 Q. I'm sorry, yes, on the left-hand side. And again we have FT:

8 "Until two months ago Izzie and Muslims, plus Muslims wanted unitary

9 Muslim state (GS: Still do secretly)." Is that Franjo Tudjman and Susak

10 speaking?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was being -- what -- what furthermore -- what further can you

13 tell us the page and tell us as much as -- I don't need to ask you the

14 questions about what's being said here.

15 A. Well, as I mentioned earlier in answer to one of your questions,

16 the goal of the Bosnian Muslim government was indeed a unitary state, sort

17 of one person, one vote. And the reason for that was that by 1991, 1992,

18 the Muslim population already in Bosnia was a plurality of 44 per cent of

19 the population of Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to the '81 census, '91 was

20 almost identical, was Muslim, was roughly 31 per cent Bosnian Serbs, and

21 about 18 per cent are Bosnian Croats. So the Muslims had the expectation

22 that they would become a majority and President Tudjman and Susak feared

23 very deeply what would happen if and when the Bosnian Muslims ever

24 achieved a majority in a unitary state. That is, as I said, a highly

25 centralised state. And Susak says they still want this. And then

Page 16717

1 President Tudjman goes on to say the Muslims are saying, and I quote him

2 here, "We weren't ready for the Serbs, but we will be for the Croats."

3 And he then went on to say that Tudjman, who was the -- excuse me. Sorry.

4 That Izetbegovic, who was the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but his

5 formal title was president of the Presidency, because they had a rotating

6 Presidency, and since it rotated it was due to rotate actually in January

7 to the Bosnian Croat on the Presidency, and Izetbegovic and Silajdzic and

8 Ganic said that we're at war now. It's a very serious situation. Because

9 of wartime, you know, I should -- I will retain the Presidency. And this

10 displeased President Tudjman, but he goes on to say, "The Muslims decided

11 that Izetbegovic should continue. We don't care. I recommended," quote

12 unquote, "to Boban that he agree and he did. And the reason I put

13 recommended in quotes, because the president smiled at that point, and

14 when he used the word "recommended," of course he knew that he was saying

15 I told Boban or I ordered Boban. So recommended was a politesse, and --

16 and that indeed continued. Izetbegovic remained the titular president of

17 Bosnia for years thereafter.

18 Q. Just so it's clear, Ambassador, if you can, when you

19 say "recommended," and again in quotes, quote, "recommended to Boban that

20 he agree and he did," that Boban agree to what?

21 A. Agree to allowing Izetbegovic to continue in the titular

22 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As the -- as the president of the

23 country.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I look at the time, and that may be the

25 time to take the next break.

Page 16718

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a 20-minute break

2 now.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Ambassador, before we -- I'm going to go way back, I'm sorry,

8 to the beginning very, very briefly just to deal with something. Before I

9 forget, we might as well do it now. In your bundle, if you go back to the

10 very first exhibit, we were talking about the Graz agreement. Exhibit P

11 00187, because I'm not sure we'll have anyone else here who can identify a

12 couple of items on the document. So I forgot to ask you before. I

13 apologise.

14 On the very -- if you look at the second page of that document,

15 it's in the -- I need the assistance of the usher, please. It's in the

16 other binder.

17 A. I have it in front of me.

18 Q. The second page of the document there is -- it's handwritten. It

19 says, "Dear Colm," C-o-l-m. Do you see that? Sir, if you look at the

20 second page.

21 A. I don't see it.

22 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, sorry. Apparently the wrong -- my

23 apologies, Your Honour. I'll try to come back to it tomorrow. Some pages

24 are missing. I apologise for that. My apologies to the usher for the

25 confusion.

Page 16719

1 Q. Sir, then going to the P 00829. We're still on the same diary we

2 were looking at before the break, I believe, and if we go to the entry for

3 the 17th of December, 1992, page 4240.

4 A. 4240 did you say?

5 Q. Yes, sir. All right. On the top of the right side of the page

6 you have -- it looks like Tudjman/Izzie/something us. I guess us. Do you

7 see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And let me just make sure -- because I have -- I think I may have

10 misspoken when I said the 17th. Is this -- is the date in your

11 handwriting is that the 17th or the 27th of --

12 A. It's 27.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Continuing down and

14 going back to the left side of the page then. It says CRV. Who is CRV?

15 A. Vance. If I might go through all of the names. I can do it very

16 quickly for the Court.

17 Q. Please.

18 A. CRV is Vance. DLO is Lord Owen. HSO is me. PH is Ambassador

19 Hall. Martti is the head of our working group. Martti Ahtisaari. PGR is

20 Perti Ramturan [phoen] from the United Nations Secretariat. Then we have

21 President Tudjman, Vudi Radic [phoen]. Mate Boban, Gojko Susak, Neven

22 Madry, and Professor Janko was interpreting. That was the Croatian

23 delegation, and the Bosnian was Izetbegovic, Silajdzic, Trnka, their

24 lawyer, Somun --

25 Q. Slow, slow, slow down a little bit, please, for the purposes of

Page 16720

1 the translation?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Yes.

3 Ambassador, could you slow down and Mr. Scott could you slow down too

4 since the interpreters are having a little difficult following.

5 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. I apologise to the Court. Starting with

6 Tudjman President Tudjman; his Chef de Cabinet, Jure Radic; Mate Boban,

7 Herceg-Bosna. You'll notice I do not say BiH next to Mate Boban because

8 he described himself as from Herceg-Bosna. So that's what I wrote.

9 Defence Minister Gojko Susak. Charge Neven Madry. That is to say the

10 Croatian charge d'affair in Geneva; and the interpreter Professor Janko.

11 From the Bosnian delegation was President Izetbegovic; Haris

12 Silajdzic, his foreign minister; Mr. Trnka, their legal advisor; Mr.

13 Somun, another advisor, and Sabrina who interpreted for the delegation

14 when interpretation was necessary, and she is also President Izetbegovic's

15 daughter.


17 Q. Thank you for that. And underneath that there is then the entry

18 marked CRV, Secretary Vance. "Welcome, where do we stand after December

19 17th." Do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And just looking at this document, sir, can you just look at your

22 notes and tell us then what was discussed at this meeting as -- looking at

23 the notes and whatever additional recollection that you have that you can

24 share with us.

25 A. Yes. Well, we had brought the two parties together, that is to

Page 16721

1 say the Croatian side and the Bosnian side in order to work with them and

2 see the way forward and find out what was going on and what was on their

3 minds. This is normal practice in a negotiation, particularly at the

4 highest level. And Secretary Vance welcomed them and the first response

5 was Izetbegovic who said, "there is no complete agreement on the map but

6 we're making progress," getting there means making progress. We have

7 problems with Travnik and Mostar, which meant that there was a direct

8 problem between the Croats and the Muslims, and he gave us a new map.

9 He goes on to say that his new map retains the old opstina

10 boundaries, but he says, "we are willing to change them." Owen says,

11 "That's a good thing; they're not sacrosanct." And Boban comes in and

12 says, our commission, that is the Bosnian Croat side met for days but I

13 quoted him here and underlined it, "We could not agree on basic

14 principles." And he went on to make the case for Herceg-Bosna, as you see

15 he said for example you cannot cut off Herceg-Bosna. It is the heartland

16 of the church and of our people. That was Mate Boban. And he goes on to

17 say, "If we are honest, we will recognise this." And he gives the

18 percentages of Bosnian Croats and Muslims living in Herceg Nova, for

19 example.

20 So this was a profound discussion, an open discussion, and it was

21 no secret for us negotiators to hear this from Mate Boban in Geneva

22 because we heard it from him regularly, and Ahtisaari then asks --

23 Q. Who is Ahtisaari for the record?

24 A. That is Martti Ahtisaari. He worked for us. He was the chair of

25 the working group of the international conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina so

Page 16722

1 he had an important job.

2 Q. Can you perhaps remind the Chamber of anything Mr. Ahtisaari is

3 involved in at the current time?

4 A. Yes, after the conference he went back as an official of the

5 United Nations and then returned to Finland, his native country, where

6 some years ago not too long ago he ran for president and was elected

7 president of Finland. And after he retired from the Presidency of Finland

8 he's involved himself actively in good works in international

9 negotiations. Most recently and currently he is the Secretary-General's

10 lead negotiator on the status of Kosovo.

11 Q. But in December of 1993 he was part of your team?

12 A. Yes. He was -- as I mentioned to you, he was chairman of our

13 working group on Bosnia-Herzegovina. And a very good chairman he was.

14 Q. Continuing on -- oh, go ahead --

15 A. So that's Martti Ahtisaari, MA in the middle of the page, asks

16 about the status for the map for Bosnia. Is it and joint map? And Boban

17 responds, no, it has not been agreed upon. And Trnka, the Muslim

18 lawyer -- excuse me -- yes, sorry, yes, President Izetbegovic's lawyer,

19 interjects and says, "It's our compromise proposal." And then I sum up

20 and therefore you'll note parentheses. Mr. Stewart, you will see

21 parentheses down the rest of the page, and that means that I'm not quoting

22 them directly. That is to say I'm not writing as I normally do the direct

23 interchange, but I'm at the table summarising what they're saying as I

24 hear it at the moment, and I write, and this is me writing for myself and

25 Vance: "Inconclusive discussion of Travnik/Kupres area with Martti

Page 16723

1 Ahtisaari pressing and others ducking," that means -- ducking is slang for

2 not responding. And I note this is 11.45 a.m. "Ahtisaari, Martti keeps

3 pressing across the entire of difference. The BiH side appearing quite

4 bored with the proceeding answers every query the same way: It makes

5 economic sense, therefore nearby," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They

6 kept talking about the things making economic sense. They -- just to say

7 things that favoured the Bosnian Muslim position. And I note then for

8 myself and I write at the time in capital letters what the BiH map shows

9 is gerrymandering. And if the Court wishes I can explain gerrymandering

10 what it means, otherwise, if it is understood, I will stop here.

11 Q. Let me ask you, sir, just -- you can explain what gerrymandering--

12 what you -- when you say gerrymandering write -- excuse me, wrote in your

13 knows gerrymandering, explain that concept or terminology.

14 A. I can do it briefly. It's an electoral trick where one side to an

15 election dispute or area moves the area, borders around to favour its own

16 side.

17 Q. If you -- sorry go ahead.

18 A. And the origin of the phrase comes from the American revolutionary

19 period in the 18th century when a Massachusetts lawyer named Gerry shifted

20 the borders of Massachusetts so that his party could easily be elected,

21 and it's referred to always as gerrymandering. Again meaning moving the

22 borders to favour your side.

23 Q. And continuing on to the next page in the continuation of this you

24 say Haris?

25 A. Haris is Silajdzic.

Page 16724

1 Q. All right. Can you just take us through -- down to the end -- if

2 we -- just tell you -- please, if you can just take us down to where

3 you -- then it changes to 1.05 p.m., just to finish up this section?

4 A. Okay. Silajdzic entered the conversation. He was the Foreign

5 Minister of Bosnia, spoke perfect English. He had studied in the United

6 States. His English was as good and mine. He spoke often quite

7 passionately. He was deeply concerned, and he was a secularist. He was a

8 very strong secular voice inside the Bosnian Muslim government.

9 Izetbegovic was much more of a religious person. So he comes in

10 aggressive, scornful, scowling. That's the way I described his facial

11 behaviour. And he asks-- well, he queries Ahtisaari, claiming that

12 ethnicity should have no place enjoin of the provincial boundaries. And

13 Tudjman immediately rebutted Silajdzic as regards ethnicity, because

14 President Tudjman did believe that the ethnic factor was important.

15 And then Silajdzic and Susak clash over the facts of history of

16 Bosnia. This goes on for a while. And I note, again parenthetically, a

17 remark of myself to myself and Mr. Vance, "Bad blood here." Boban comes

18 in to say that Mostar and Travnik must be together, that is to say in the

19 same province. Silajdzic, Haris, says everything is wrong -- "Everything

20 is wrong with that." And President Tudjman, laughing, again rebuts

21 Silajdzic.

22 Q. Can you recall anything more particular about what either Boban,

23 Haris, or Tudjman said --

24 A. At that --

25 Q. -- at that --

Page 16725

1 A. At that meeting?

2 Q. Yes. What was -- when you say, "Tudjman, laughing," why did you

3 note that?

4 A. Well, Boban has just said Mostar and Travnik must be together.

5 Silajdzic is saying ethnicity should play no role in the physical,

6 geographical, administrative subdivisions,. And President Tudjman laughs

7 because he knows that of course it will play a role.

8 Q. Moving forward then, this is the 27th of December, 1992. We're

9 leading up to the 2nd of January, 1993, and perhaps you can just introduce

10 that to us in terms of what then happened on the 2nd of January.

11 A. On the 2nd of January the co-chairmen, Secretary Vance and Lord

12 Owen, laid down, tabled for all of the parties, for the three parties, a

13 comprehensive peace plan, a settlement. The plan consisted of the basic

14 framework, the constitutional framework, the map and the third part. The

15 third part of the plan were the military arrangements. That was to

16 January.

17 Q. In that regard then, please, if I can ask you to find in one of

18 the binders that you have in front of you P 01038, which is the next

19 instalment of your diary. I am told it's in binder 1.

20 A. Yes, I have it.

21 Q. And if you can find that and particularly the page 4253, which I

22 believe should be the beginning of the entry I hope for --

23 A. 4253 you said?

24 Q. Yes, please. It looks like we may have the wrong --

25 A. Excuse me, I have a page, but I'm afraid I can't read the number.

Page 16726

1 429 or is it 5? Can somebody help me?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. What date but referring to?

4 Q. We're trying to find the 2nd of January, but that's not the right

5 page. So give me a moment, please.

6 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated].

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


9 Q. If you could go to -- just give me a moment, please. Sorry. 4253

10 does seem to work if you can find it. If you can find your entries

11 wherever it begins on January 2nd, 1993. That might be the easiest way to

12 deal with it.

13 A. Yes, I -- yes, I have it.

14 Q. All right. Thanks very much. I'm sorry for the confusion.

15 On the right side of that page: "11.10 a.m. to 12.30, pentagonal

16 meeting, BiH meeting of 5 dels," which I assume that's "delegations."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And we won't go through all of them unless the Chamber wants us

19 to, but do you then list again the members of each delegation?

20 A. Yes. I listed them and capitalised the chairman of each of the

21 five delegations.

22 Q. Now, I'm just going to mention the Bosnian Croat group because

23 earlier this afternoon you did acknowledge that you were having trouble

24 for a moment remembering some of the names. Do you see listed here, under

25 "Boban," Mr. Akmadzic and Mr. Petkovic?

Page 16727

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. All right. Below the names it says: "CRV," Cyrus Vance, "11.25,

3 reads text of statement." Can you tell us what that was about?

4 A. Yes, the text of the statement was the statement that he planned

5 to issue to the press after this meeting.

6 Q. All right. And with that in mind -- hold on one moment, please.

7 Did the meeting start -- by the way looking at the page, perhaps you can

8 just assist, this is anecdotally, did meeting start at 11.10 or at 11.40?

9 A. 11.10, as I noted in my diary.

10 Q. What happened between 11.10 and 11.40 when Mr. Vance -- or

11 11.25 when Mr. Vance --

12 A. Well, reading the text of the statement, that he went on to read

13 in its entirety the constitution framework, the nine points, and that took

14 some time. He doesn't speak rapidly. He speaks much more slowly and

15 clearly than I do.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. And then Mate Boban spoke, you know, at some length - I mean not

18 just 30 seconds - about the principles and the map a little bit, but

19 nothing significant because I would have noted it if he said anything

20 significant.

21 Q. All right. Can I next ask you to look at P 01047. 1047.

22 A. What date is that, sir?

23 Q. 2nd of -- not in your diary, a separate document. Entirely

24 separate . The tab -- if you find the tab for the document.

25 A. Sorry. Excuse me.

Page 16728

1 Q. That's all right. It does get confusing at times.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. 1047?

4 A. Mm-hmm. Yes.

5 Q. Can you look at that and then tell us what that document is?

6 A. Yes. That is the statement that I refer to of Cyrus Vance at the

7 opening of the pentagonal conference. The only thing it don't include is

8 his reading out of the principles, and that wasn't necessary because

9 everybody had the text of the principles. So as you see, that statement

10 is three and a half pages in length, and they are single spaced. So it

11 took some time to read that out.

12 And if I may, for the benefit of the Court --

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. -- and yourselves, point out that -- Mr. Vance's remarks at the

15 opening of the second paragraph. I quote: "The process we are starting

16 today." Now one might ask: The conference has been working since early

17 September. Why is Secretary Vance saying -- talking of "the process we

18 are starting today"? He meant the process that began with the formal

19 presentation of the peace plan.

20 Q. All right. Looking down the page, please, after -- in the

21 paragraph that starts, "We expect that the outcome," and then below that

22 you have some bullet items. In the first bullet item, if you will, it

23 says: "You agreed to the principles of the international conference

24 adopted on August 26."

25 Can you briefly comment on that, what those principles were?

Page 16729

1 A. Well, those are the constitutional principles that we've talked

2 about.

3 Q. All right. Next bullet item: "You agreed in London on a number

4 of things, including full and permanent cessation of hostilities,

5 recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the former Yugoslavia republics,

6 respect for the integrity of present frontiers unless changed by mutual

7 agreement." Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And have --

10 A. Excuse me, counsel, may I revert to the first point, the

11 principles. You'll note the date August 26. The Court will recall that I

12 said the constitutional framework was introduced on October 27. Both are

13 correct. The rough outline of the principles were agreed upon at the

14 London conference on August 26, 1992. The formalised statement of the

15 principles which were in the plan were the ones of October 27. That

16 explains the discrepancy in dates.

17 Q. Let me before leaving this document if you go to the second page

18 and if we continue on the so-called bullet items, it will be overall the

19 fourth bullet item that the second bullet item on page 2 saying: "The

20 three Bosnia-Herzegovina sides also agreed to the unconditional and

21 unilateral release, under international supervision, of all civilians

22 detained, and the closure of detention camps without delay."

23 Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And does that relate back to -- much earlier this afternoon you

Page 16730

1 were talking about -- one of the issues that was known at the time was the

2 detention of civilians?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to the bundle or the -- excuse me,

5 the exhibit which is marked P -- well, it's marked 1116. For the record,

6 Exhibit P --

7 A. I have it.

8 Q. All right. Now, if you look on that page, because this is a UN

9 publication, on that page begins -- on the right side of the page, do you

10 see document S/25100?

11 A. I see it.

12 Q. And it may be helpful to just briefly say what that nomenclature

13 terminology means or what numbering system that is. S/25100?

14 A. S stands for secretariat, and 25100 is their numbering. The UN,

15 not surprisingly, numbers their documents.

16 Q. All right. When you look at that entire report it then starts

17 there and continues over the next several pages including ending with --

18 on a -- page 40 of the document, numbers of pages on the document itself

19 would be page 40, appendix 3. Do you see that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And is that all a report in connection with the meetings in early

22 January 1993?

23 A. Yes. This is in fact the text of what came to be called the

24 Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and you will notice that appendix 1 are the

25 constitutional principles with 10 points and the -- it -- the appendix 3.

Page 16731

1 Well, it continues along the road of outlining -- outlining the Vance-Owen

2 Plan.

3 Q. Before we come back further and talk about the positions of the

4 various parties in response to this plan, if we look at appendix 1, the

5 second principle is: "The provinces shall not have any international

6 legal personality and may not enter into agreements with foreign states or

7 with international organisations." Can you tell us the significance --

8 why was that considered to be one of the top 10 principles at issue here?

9 A. It was a vital issue because both the Bosnian Serbs and the

10 Bosnian Croats had made no secret of their desire to have their own states

11 inside Bosnia-Herzegovina and to unite formally or informally with the

12 mother countries, respectively Serbia and Croatia. And the co-chairmen

13 wanted strongly to assure that this did not happen.

14 Q. In that regard, please, can I ask you and everyone in the

15 courtroom please to go back to page 39, to the text of the report itself.

16 And on page 39 there is a section, Roman numeral -- I believe Roman

17 numeral II, resumption of the peace talks. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes, I see it.

19 Q. Can I please direct your attention to paragraph 9 in that column

20 at the bottom. I know the print is small, and I apologise for that. Can

21 you read what paragraph 9 says?

22 A. Yes. Should I read it?

23 Q. Please.

24 A. "With regard to principle number 1, the co-chairmen commented that

25 they did not see any real difference between what they had proposed and

Page 16732

1 what Mr. Karadzic had offered. The differences appeared to be mainly

2 semantic. Both co-chairmen and Mr. Ahtisaari made it clear, however, that

3 the concept of a 'state within a state' would not be permit the under

4 principle number 1. In response to a comment by Mr. Silajdzic, the

5 co-chairmen reaffirmed that Bosnia and Herzegovina was to remain an

6 independent sovereign state within its internationally recognised

7 boundaries."

8 Q. Would you then go on to paragraph number 10 at the top of the next

9 column.

10 A. Paragraph 10 reads: "With regard to principle number 2, which was

11 omitted from Mr. Karadzic's list, Mr. Ahtisaari explained that it was not

12 intended to restrict the role of the provinces on matters within their

13 competence. In this regard, he read the following statement which he

14 stated would form part of the records of the conference explaining

15 principle number 2."

16 Q. And just in the interest of time and everyone has the entire

17 document in front of them, can you just refer to the first two sentences

18 of that next section?

19 A. Yes. The first two sentences read as follows: "Only Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina is to have an international legal personality. Provinces

21 cannot conclude formal international treaties."

22 Q. All right. Directing your attention, please, back to Appendix 1

23 on page 40. And if I can just ask you briefly to look at principle number

24 8. Can you just read that and make any additional comment that you can

25 about principle 8?

Page 16733

1 A. Principle number 8 reads always follows: "Bosnia and Herzegovina

2 is to be progressively demilitarised under United Nations/European

3 Community supervision."

4 I should say it speaks for itself, but I would add that in January

5 1993, it's important never to forget that the conflict was still

6 continuing. There was heavy fighting in January 1993.

7 Q. While we have that text in front of us and before going on to

8 something else, can you tell the Judges, looking at that language, and

9 then I'll ask you more generally, was there anything about the Vance-Owen

10 proposals as they existed on the 2nd of January, 1993, which talked about

11 the withdrawal or subordination of any particular military units in any

12 particular territories?

13 A. Well, there was a very large section on military arrangements, and

14 I mentioned withdrawal was discussed, but there is nothing in -- in that

15 document, in the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, that spoke about subordination of

16 units with respect to withdrawal. The most detail in the agreement

17 concerned the removal and cantonment of heavy weaponry.

18 Q. All right. Now, let me -- without having looked at the documents,

19 and everyone now has the entire Vance-Owen record -- agreement as it

20 existed as of the 2nd of January in front of them, what was the reaction

21 of the three principal parties, the Bosnian Croats, the Bosnian Muslims,

22 and the Bosnian Serbs, to this proposal?

23 A. The Bosnian Croat side accepted the entire proposal. The Bosnian

24 Muslim side accepted the principles, accepted but did not sign the

25 military arrangements. So that was a conditional acceptance. And

Page 16734

1 rejected the map. The Bosnian Serb side rejected the Vance-Owen proposal,

2 all three principle sections. They rejected in its entirety.

3 Q. And what was the -- what happened after, then, this important

4 meeting on the 2nd of January?

5 A. Well, we returned -- we kept negotiating. I mean, the goal was to

6 reach agreement of all three parties, so the conference went back to the

7 negotiating table.

8 Q. Can you -- you talked earlier this afternoon about -- that some of

9 the Bosnian Croat and Bosnian Serb interests were similar, or "congruent"

10 I think was the word you used at one point. Was there an interplay here

11 in the positioning of the -- the positioning and posturing of the various

12 parties in relationship to each other and, in particular, between the

13 Croats and the Serbs?

14 A. Yes, I would say there was.

15 Q. How so?

16 A. Well, both sides would publicly express deep concern about the

17 conflict, their regret that it occurred, their desire to end the

18 conflicts, their hope to live in peace and eternal harmony forever and

19 ever, and at the same time they were carrying out on the ground a very

20 different policy and that was this two-track policy. There was the

21 difference that -- the attention, I would say, of the broad public was

22 largely focused - and correctly - on the Serb activities inside Bosnia,

23 because it was the Serbs, for example, who had besieged, were besieging

24 Sarajevo and firing many shells into the city on a daily basis. The UN,

25 if I may parenthetically add, kept an accurate account of the number of

Page 16735

1 shells fired by General Mladic and his troops into Sarajevo, and it

2 averaged 5.000 a day. So that was the main attention, and it was widely

3 known there Karadzic who said publicly that they would reject the

4 Vance-Owen Plan. That was -- that was known.

5 Q. How did the Serb rejection of the Vance-Owen Plan in its entirety

6 impact the negotiating positions of either the --

7 A. Well, it gave both the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats,

8 particularly the Bosnian Croats, a free ride, because they could accept

9 the Vance-Owen Plan in the secure knowledge that it would not go anywhere

10 because of Bosnian Serb rejection.

11 Q. In your negotiations and discussions with the three parties, and

12 in this particular instance the Bosnian Croat delegation, did you have any

13 understanding of the reasons or motivations as expressed or as observed by

14 you as to their agreement to the parts of the Vance-Owen Plan in January?

15 A. Yes. We knew that they were not just formally happy with the

16 proposed map. In reality, they were quite pleased with the map.

17 Vance-Owen took strong account of the needs of the Bosnian Croat people.

18 So the map was fine with Mate Boban.

19 The military arrangements they didn't talk much about, and we knew

20 that reason. And again, they knew that the focus on the military, as I

21 mentioned earlier, was going to be on the withdrawal of heavy weapons, and

22 that meant Serb gunners bombing, shelling Sarajevo and other cities. So

23 that one was easy for them to accept. And they did not like the

24 principles but went along with them because they knew, again, that there

25 would have to be, or they thought there would have to be, some adjustment

Page 16736

1 in the principles if the co-chairmen were to gain Serb acceptance.

2 Q. All right. Well, when you say just now they didn't -- they did

3 not like the principles but went along with them, and then, as you further

4 said, in what ways did they not like the principles. How did that show

5 that --

6 A. Well, above all they did not like the point 2 about not having an

7 international personality and not having any -- "may not enter into

8 agreements with foreign states or with international organisations," and

9 that directly had a very harmful impact on their desire, which we've

10 discussed earlier, to either join Croatia at a later date or have a

11 special relationship with Croatia.

12 Q. It may be -- excuse me. All right. I asked you earlier, then,

13 did negotiations continue on in light of the various positions that you've

14 just explained? And let me ask you to look in particular, please, at --

15 again, Exhibit P 01038, which is again part of your -- one of the parts of

16 your diary.

17 A. Yes, I have it.

18 Q. And if I can ask you to please find page 4266.

19 A. What date is that, please?

20 Q. Yes. The 4th of January, 1993.

21 A. January 4th. Yes, I have January 4th. What -- 4266. Yes, I have

22 it, sir.

23 Q. Let me catch up with you for a moment. You're ahead of me in this

24 instance. Thank you very much.

25 Okay. You have that. This is an additional meeting on the 4th of

Page 16737

1 January, 1993, and you've again listed the various persons who

2 participated; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the right -- excuse me. On the left side of the page you have

5 a reference -- an entry for Izzie.

6 A. That's President Izetbegovic.

7 Q. And what does he say there, and can you explain that to us?

8 A. I quote what I wrote: "President Izetbegovic asks for an

9 additional principle that Bosnia-Herzegovina is a sovereign independent

10 recognised country."

11 It was. Everybody knew it. The -- the chairmen, the co-chairmen,

12 felt it was self-evident that Bosnia was an independent country. It was a

13 member of the UN, that it did not need saying, but Izetbegovic was clearly

14 nervous about that and asked that it be included.

15 Q. On page 4267, the next page, please.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. There's a reference to something said by Mr. Vance. CRV with two

18 of your asterisks next to it. "Reads prepared texts. Puts two

19 inextricably linked documents on table: A, cessation of hostilities; and

20 B, constitution and map."

21 A. Well, that's very easy to explain. The three parts of the

22 Vance-Owen Peace Plan that we've mentioned, the constitutional principles,

23 the map, the military arrangements, were to be accepted as a package, that

24 is to say all three. So we needed nine signatures. Three parties, three

25 principals, nine signatures. And we had three. The Bosnian Croats had

Page 16738

1 accepted. But -- and then we had this semi-conditional acceptance by

2 Izetbegovic. So Mr. Vance wanted to make clear to all parties, but

3 particularly to the Muslims and Serbs, that they one not be allowed to

4 pick and choose which of the parts of the peace plan they liked.

5 Q. On the right side of the page there's a number of entries, and

6 again everyone has the entire page and can read everything. The middle of

7 the page, Boban, basic thing is "justice. We have no right not to create

8 peace," I think it says. All three parties, "We accept this package."

9 And it's attributed to Izetbegovic, "Izzie, we are ready to sign without

10 map." Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So is it fair to say that even by the 4th of January, 1993, there

13 was still no agreement between the three parties?

14 A. Yes, there was no agreement between the two [sic] parties.

15 Q. If you can go -- I believe it's in the same part of your diary,

16 but if you can find page -- I'm going to make sure. 4280.

17 A. Yes. Dated January 10.

18 Q. Yes. "Meeting of the five parties, second round." Do you see

19 that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in that set of minutes and notes -- sorry. Forgive me. I'm

22 looking for the entry. Sorry. It's on page 4287. If you can go forward

23 in the same -- again, still on the 10th, but the notes go on for some

24 period of time. I'm sorry. At the end of the 10th of January meeting,

25 the next day goes on to the 11th of January, on page 4287. Is Boban -- is

Page 16739

1 it correct that your notes indicate Boban: "I believe they don't want a

2 map at all. We must insist on constitutional text that Muslims accept

3 map."

4 A. I'm sorry, but I don't see that.

5 Q. Okay. I apologise for the confusion but if you find --

6 A. My pages are not numbered, counsel, so I'm having difficulty

7 following you.

8 Q. On the --

9 A. I have 4286.

10 Q. If you go to the next page hopefully --

11 A. Well, it does not say so but I assume it is.

12 Q. Well, I apologise if that's not clear. On that next page on the

13 left-hand side, if you go down, do you see an entry next to Boban?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. Is that the one that says, I quote, "We had the feeling that

17 Silajdzic wanted to break up the talks"? Is that what you're referring

18 to?

19 Q. Above -- well, I don't know. I'm looking at 4287. Perhaps the

20 usher can assist us.

21 MR. STEWART: The witness was looking at the right hand page of

22 the previous page. He's looking at the little right-hand page.


24 Q. Turn the entire A4.

25 A. I see. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

Page 16740

1 Boban, yes, I see that. I have that page. I apologise to the

2 Court.

3 Q. Since it's been a couple of moments now, can you just read the --

4 the note that you've attributed to Mr. Boban on that page?

5 A. Yes, if we back up a little bit you see that Mate says, "the

6 Muslims want to end the talks. They forget the principles -- they forget

7 that the principles and the map are one unit." And he's quite right.

8 That's what Mr. Vance said when they are inextricably linked. And then

9 Mate continues by saying at the top of the next page: "Even with the

10 war," and I write "et cetera" meaning the war and the fighting and the

11 killing just the usual words, "we must take into account legitimate Serb

12 claims."

13 Q. Mm-hmm.

14 A. And that again is telling us that some of the Bosnian Serb claims

15 are legitimate, and he means -- and he knows we know that he means the

16 Serb claims to their own state and to their own territory, because they

17 were identical to his aims.

18 Q. Well, that was my next question to you. Why would Mr. -- why

19 would Mr. Boban be claiming the legitimacy of Serb claims?

20 A. I think I've just answered the question.

21 Q. Can you say it again, please?

22 A. In Mate's mind, Mate Boban, that is, the "legitimate Serb claims"

23 were those that were congruent or identical with the Bosnian Croat claims,

24 specifically the desire to have a separate state within the territory of

25 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 16741

1 Q. And then below that the next -- there's -- not the next one but

2 the -- do you see the entry "Boban: I believe."

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. Could you read that to us, please.

5 A. Well, Secretary Vance had said, "What about the Bosnian team and

6 the map?" And Mate Boban responded, and I quote: "I believe they don't

7 want a map at all. We must insist in the constitutional text that the

8 Muslims accept the map. They won't accept Sarajevo province, but will

9 accept a tripartite Sarajevo city."

10 By that he meant that province number 10, it was called number 10

11 on the Vance-Owen map, was to be the area of Sarajevo and the surrounding

12 provinces, and it was to have a separate status to be under strict

13 tripartite rule, that is to say Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, Bosnian

14 Serb. And that's what he meant when he said, "they will not accept

15 tripartite."

16 Q. Did the concept -- because this may relate to something that may

17 come up tomorrow, was there always a different concept as to how the area

18 around Sarajevo would be organised or governed under the plan?

19 A. There were differing opinions. You might call them concepts

20 although that's a rather elevated term for the way the parties felt. The

21 Muslims took the strong view that Sarajevo was theirs, it was their

22 capital, and that nobody else should really have a look in on the rule of

23 Sarajevo. This concerned primarily the Bosnian Serbs, because the Bosnian

24 Serbs had a heavy presence, a large population, in Sarajevo. It was of

25 much less concern to the Bosnian Croat side because very few Bosnian

Page 16742

1 Croats lived in Sarajevo compared to the other two nationalities.

2 An additional difficulty was that the mountains around Sarajevo

3 were largely Bosnian Serb populated. Ilidza, for example, and some

4 others. And Pale, for example, which is where the Bosnian Serbs installed

5 their pseudo-government. So they had an interest in both the city of

6 Sarajevo and the bowl, I -- if I may describe it, the rim around the city,

7 which was occupied by Serbs.

8 And then there was the fact on the Bosnian Serb side that their

9 number-two man, Momcilo Krajisnik, was himself from Sarajevo and had a

10 real feeling towards the city. Karadzic, for example, did not. He's a

11 Montenegrin by origin, and to him Sarajevo was just another city. But

12 Krajisnik, who played an important role in the Bosnian Serb affairs was,

13 very strong on Serbs retaining an important role in Sarajevo.

14 You'll recall, Your Honours, that I mentioned as one of the

15 Bosnian Serb war aims the partition, the division of Sarajevo. So it was

16 an important issue.

17 Q. Can I ask you next, please, to go to the next page. It should be

18 the next -- very, very next page in your diary, starting on the 12th of

19 January.

20 A. Excuse me, I have January 20th as the next page.

21 Q. I'm sorry, sir. I don't know why we seem to be having so much

22 difficulty?

23 A. Are you talking about 4307?

24 Q. No I'm talking about 4297.

25 A. Excuse me. I'm sorry, I don't have it in this book.

Page 16743

1 Q. It may be in the next binder?

2 A. Ne je sais pas.

3 Q. It may be in the next binder, please. I don't know.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Scott, it's the same here.

5 THE WITNESS: Is this it?

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I apologise for the difficulties, and

7 it's five to 7.00. Maybe the best thing to do is to end now and see if we

8 can hopefully make this clear overnight. I apologise for the confusion.

9 Mr. President, that would be my suggestion.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Ambassador, we are finished for today. As you know, you will be

12 testified over the next four days, until Thursday. Since we will be

13 sitting in the afternoon, tomorrow I kindly ask you to come back at the

14 session starting at 2.15.

15 I am inviting everybody else to come back tomorrow for our

16 afternoon session starting at 2.15. Thank you.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.54 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day

19 of April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.