Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19453

1 Tuesday, 5 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please call the

6 case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

8 everyone. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et

9 al. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

11 Mr. Registrar.

12 I would like to greet everyone here in this courtroom, Mr. Scott,

13 the Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in the courtroom. We

14 are starting late. I don't know for what reason. I was told that the

15 Popovic Trial Chamber was late in finishing. I saw on my screen that

16 Mr. Karnavas was in another case. So I don't exactly know what this delay

17 is about.

18 In any case, we are 20 minutes late, and we'll try to make up for

19 it but I will first like to ask the registrar to give us some IC numbers.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you again, Your Honour.

21 OTP has submitted a list of documents which should be tendered

22 through a Mr. Rudy Gerritsen. This list will become Exhibit IC 591 under

23 seal. In addition, several parties have submitted lists of documents to

24 be tendered through Witness BH. The list submitted by OTP shall be given

25 Exhibit number IC 592 under seal. The list submitted by 3D shall be

Page 19454

1 given Exhibit number IC 593 while the list submitted by 4D shall be given

2 Exhibit number IC 594 under seal. That's everything, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We are now

4 going to move into private session for a few minutes, Mr. Registrar.

5 [Private session]

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Page 19455

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5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I had asked for closed session but only

8 out of great caution, Your Honour. There is -- there is a motion

9 current -- perhaps it's safer --

10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

11 MR. STEWART: I understood that Your Honour. I understand that.

12 I was just wondering whether in the circumstance I could safely proceed

13 but I think not actually, Your Honour. I -- may we go back into private

14 session.

15 [Private session]

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Page 19456











11 Pages 19456-19458 redacted. Private session















Page 19459

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. SCOTT: The reason we selected four and a half hours is for a

6 reason and we think that that's a reasonable estimate of time that will be

7 required.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I do wish to raise a concern here, Your Honour.

9 Here we are right before the witness testifies and we find out for the

10 very first time that the Trial Chamber, on its own, has decided to make

11 cuts and changes to the allocation of the time. The Prosecution obviously

12 indicated it needed for its case four and a half hours. You cut their

13 time and then you cut the Defence's time without recognising the amount of

14 time that the Defence needs and I must -- I must say that again this is

15 not the proper way to proceed. I've said it in the past; I'll say it

16 again. This is not a way to ensure that the accused are getting a fair

17 trial. And so -- and I certainly don't want the Prosecution at the end of

18 their three hours to then try to introduce documents later on because they

19 didn't have enough time to put it in. Of course, that's something that

20 they feel compelled to do but it puts the Defence at a disadvantage and

21 we're getting closer and closer to violating the Statute. We're getting

22 to the point where there's no need for us to appear in Court if that's the

23 case.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll see.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 19460

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, can you please stand.

2 Can you please give me your first name, last name, and date of birth?

3 THE WITNESS: I'm Bo Pellnas, born on the 22nd of October, 1939.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current occupation?

5 THE WITNESS: I'm a retired brigadier general from the Swedish

6 armed forces.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, have you ever testified

8 before a Tribunal on the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia

9 or is this the first time you've testified?

10 THE WITNESS: This is the first time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm now going to ask you to read

12 the solemn declaration shown to you by the usher.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, General. You may sit

16 down.

17 It's the first time you've testified here, so let me give you a

18 few words of explanation about this week of hearing where we will hear

19 your testimony. In the first stage you will answer questions put to you

20 by the Prosecutor. I'm sure you've met him before the hearing. The

21 Prosecutor will also show you a number of documents that you've probably

22 been shown earlier during the meeting you had with the Prosecution.

23 Afterwards, the Defence counsel, who are sitting on your left, or

24 as the case may be the accused themselves, may be able to put questions to

25 you as part of the procedure we call the cross-examination.

Page 19461

1 The four Judges sitting before you may, according to the Rules of

2 Procedure and Evidence, may ask you questions at any time, but for

3 practical purposes and so as not to obstruct the examination conducted by

4 each of the parties, we find it better to put questions at the end. For

5 extraordinary reasons, for example, because you're dealing with a

6 particular document, we may decide to ask questions to deal with that

7 particular document so as not to have to go back to it at the end. But

8 usually we prefer to wait until the end to put questions to you.

9 If you do not understand one of the questions put to you, do not

10 hesitate to ask the person asking the question to repeat it. Please try

11 to be extremely accurate when answering the questions. This is an oral

12 proceedings, and what is important is what you will tell us and what will

13 be confirmed and corroborated by documents that will be submitted to you.

14 That's why you have a screen in front of you where what's being said by

15 everyone here in this courtroom is transcribed. We have breaks every 90

16 minutes for technical reasons and also to give the witness the opportunity

17 to rest, but if in the meantime you feel that you need to rest, do not

18 hesitate to notify us and ask for a break. The Trial Chamber is ready to

19 answer any questions you might have during the hearing.

20 These are a few words of explanation about the way we are going to

21 proceed today and on Wednesday and Thursday during this week that is

22 entirely dedicated to you.

23 Mr. Scott, without further ado and without wasting any more time

24 because time is precious, please proceed.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, and good

Page 19462

1 afternoon to everyone else in the courtroom.


3 Examination by Mr. Scott:

4 Q. General Pellnas, good afternoon. General, our time under any

5 scenario would be rather limited so I would like to go through some of

6 your background fairly quickly. If you can just confirm a few facts for

7 us, please. As you've just indicated, you are a retired senior officer

8 from the Swedish armed forces; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You are an infantry or were an infantry officer by training. You

11 began your military service in 1958. You were commissioned in 1961. You

12 became a colonel in 1984 and brigadier general in 1990; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During your time in the Swedish armed forces you were also a

15 regimental or brigade commander. At a time you were in charge of what was

16 called training and economy during the period from 1990 into 1992.

17 Perhaps you could just briefly explain what that position involved.

18 A. I was charged with the planning of the training of our conscripts

19 and our units, and also to oversee the economy for this training as well

20 as the housing for the training units.

21 Q. When you say to oversee the economy, might we understand that to

22 be involved with administering the budget with these functions?

23 A. Yep. Yes. At the time about 8 million Swedish crowns.

24 Q. And that was yours -- its correct that was your last assignment in

25 Swedish armed forces?

Page 19463

1 A. Yes, before leaving for the former Yugoslavia.

2 Q. During this same time period, at various parts of the time that

3 I've just very quickly covered, is it correct, sir, that you were a United

4 Nations battalion commander in Cyprus --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- during the period 1983, 1984?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you in charge of military observers in Kabul, Afghanistan

9 during 1988, 1989?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Is it correct that from approximately the 8th of November, 1992

12 until the 15th of November, 1993, you were the chief military observer for

13 the United Nations Protection Force, or UNPROFOR, in the former

14 Yugoslavia?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And of course it is that particular function which we will focus

17 on in particular today. Your office in that function, your regular office

18 was located in Zagreb?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In November 1993, you went to Geneva where you worked as military

21 advisor to Thorvald Stoltenberg at the International Conference on the

22 Former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And you stayed in that position until approximately January 1995?

25 A. Yes. I think it was the 15th.

Page 19464

1 Q. All right. And one other item before finishing with the

2 background. After being the chief military observer for the former

3 Yugoslavia, you -- on the 14th of September, 1994, you went to Belgrade

4 where you took charge of the border mission in Serbia-Montenegro at the

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina border; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And is it correct based on what you told us a moment ago when you

8 returned to the Swedish army, essentially, you completed these duties and

9 most recently at that time your duty with Ambassador Stoltenberg, you

10 returned to the Swedish army and retired from the armed forces and retired

11 on the 15th of January, 1995?

12 A. On the 1st of February.

13 Q. 1st of February. Yes. Thank you very much.

14 Just by way of additional background sir, it may come up in the

15 course of your testimony, you wrote a book about your experience in the

16 former Yugoslavia called, if I understand correctly, "Never ending"?

17 A. "Without end?"

18 Q. Is it correct that that book was primarily written in the summer

19 of 1994 and published in February 1995?

20 A. Yes. It was written during vacation in France.

21 Q. Let me then go directly to your position as chief UN military

22 observer. Can you tell the Judges and the Judges have heard a bit about

23 some of these different functions and have had witnesses who were

24 themselves, at least one if not more, but I know at least one who was a UN

25 military observer, in fact, but can you tell them a bit more about where

Page 19465

1 the UN military observers failed you, what function they performed as part

2 of the overall international involvement in the former Yugoslavia. For

3 instance, how did they compare or relate to UNPROFOR?

4 A. I think we had about 270, or something like that, observers when I

5 started and they work in teams and the idea is to put them together from

6 different nations and I think the idea behind that is to certify that they

7 will be reporting objectively and not playing any national agendas and we

8 had over 570 observers when I left UNPROFOR.

9 Q. And these observers, is it correct, were stationed throughout the

10 former Yugoslavia?

11 A. Yes. We had about, when I started, 60 observers in Sarajevo, and

12 there were observers in Tuzla, in the Mostar region, in Dubrovnik, also I

13 think in Bihac and of course in what was at the time known as Krajina, in

14 Knin.

15 Q. Very well. Could I ask that the witness be provided the binder of

16 exhibits that will be used with the witness, please.

17 Sir, what's just been placed in front of you is a binder full of

18 exhibits which should all be tabbed in numerical order. So in the course

19 of your testimony, I will be referring you to exhibits by number, and

20 hopefully you will be able to find them there without too much trouble.

21 Can I ask you please to go first of all to Exhibit 487. For the

22 record, P 00487. They're not in the order in which we will necessarily

23 use them, but they should be in numerical order.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we don't have that

25 exhibit, 487.

Page 19466

1 MR. SCOTT: Okay.

2 THE WITNESS: I have a 485.

3 MR. SCOTT: Maybe I've written down the number incorrectly.

4 Excuse me, Your Honour. I apologise for that. Let me see if I can ...

5 Q. All right. I apologise. There's been some error in that regard.

6 Maybe we can come back to it in the course of your testimony.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: We'll need to share with the Bench our copy. I

8 don't believe it's marked.

9 MR. SCOTT: If it's in e-court, perhaps we could proceed in

10 e-court, Your Honour. It would be easier to do it now than to obviously

11 come back to it at some other time in the future especially with the time

12 being limited. I apologise for whatever happened, but if I could have the

13 assistance of the ushers to go to Exhibit P 00487 in e-court.

14 Q. And, General, what will happen in this instance, I think it will

15 come up on your computer screen, but apparently we don't have a hard copy.

16 Sir, if you could just -- and with the assistance of the registry

17 or usher if necessary, if you could just look at that document. I had

18 shown you that previous -- previously.

19 This is a document that's titled "Concept for the deployment of

20 UNMO in Bosnia-Herzegovina command." And is this document, and if you

21 need to -- if you need to go through more parts of the document I'll ask

22 that the usher assist us in doing so, but is this a document that sets out

23 essentially what you understood the structure of the UN military observers

24 was during the time that you were the chief of that organisation, roughly

25 speaking? It may not be exactly in detail, but primarily.

Page 19467

1 A. Yep.

2 Q. If I can ask the usher to assist us by going to item number 9 on

3 the second page. And I'll abbreviate my questions in light of the fact

4 that we don't have a hard copy.

5 In item number 9, if you have that, you see that it indicates the

6 nature of the task of UNMOs being, "A, patrolling in the area of

7 responsibility; B, liaison with concerned parties; C, negotiations with

8 authorities as required; D, inevitable/ad hoc humanitarian tasks." Do you

9 find that to be an accurate statement of the various tasks or missions of

10 the UNMOs during this time?

11 A. Yes. If it is understood that reporting is imbedded in all of

12 these tasks, yes.

13 Q. And I'm not sure that we need to look -- turn to the page but down

14 below on the screen that we're looking at now you can see in fact that at

15 that particular time there are approximately 19 observers allocated to

16 Mostar in section 10. Do you see that?

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. And as part of this document and again I don't think we

19 necessarily have to go to it but there is an organisational chart which

20 shows in fact one of the locations being Mostar.

21 Could you briefly tell us what the reporting in fact -- you just

22 mentioned the element or component of reporting. What was the

23 arrangements or the structure or process for reporting from the UNMOs in

24 the field to others that were in -- either to you or others who were along

25 the chain of reporting or command?

Page 19468

1 A. Well, their first reporting line was the operational line to the

2 battalion commander which they -- in which whose area they were operating,

3 and to the -- and for him to the headquarter. But they also through their

4 line of -- I should say observer line of order reported directly to me in

5 Zagreb.

6 Q. So there was essentially a dual system of reporting?

7 A. Yeah. It was actually quite deliberate the dual system.

8 Q. And was there any particular terminology for what you called

9 the -- the basic daily report that would be received from the field?

10 A. It was called situation reports which came every morning, and I

11 actually had three situation reports, one first put up by my headquarters

12 and all the reports coming in from the observers. Secondly, there was the

13 UNPROFOR sitrep, and I think also most of the time we had sitreps from the

14 ECMM monitors.

15 Q. Let me -- let me just briefly ask you about some of your travels

16 and missions in the former Yugoslavia, again just by way of additional

17 background. Is it correct, sir, that in the course of your duties in the

18 former Yugoslavia you travelled to such places as Zvornik, Tuzla,

19 Kiseljak, Fojnica?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You travelled in the Tuzla, Vares, Sarajevo area?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You travelled, I take it, in the Mostar, Metkovic area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Also Dubrovnik, Gorazde, Srebrenica --

Page 19469

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Medjugorje?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I would like to ask you about some of the senior officials or

7 personalities that you interacted with during this time. You were

8 stationed in -- or headquartered, if you will, in Zagreb. Did you ever

9 have occasion to deal directly with the president of Croatia at that time,

10 Franjo Tudjman?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And can you tell the Judges approximately, and we'll just dealing

13 with an approximation here, how many times that you had dealings or

14 meetings with President Tudjman?

15 A. I would guess about four times directly. Three or four times.

16 Q. These primarily occurred - I can just look at my notes as well -

17 all during 1993, perhaps?

18 A. Yes. Yes. One was dealing with the Maslenica bridge problem. I

19 was also taking part in a meeting at Brioni together with Ambassador

20 Vollebaek and Gert Ahrends, and I was on another later meeting together

21 with General Eide and Tudjman.

22 Q. Let me ask you similar questions concerning the Croatian minister

23 of defence Gojko Susak. Did you ever have occasion to meet with or have

24 dealings with Mr. Susak?

25 A. Yes. When I took the office I had a number of meetings with him.

Page 19470

1 We were at that time working with the Prevlaka peninsula and that problem,

2 and I had rather good access to him in the beginning. After my period in

3 Mostar in April 1993, he stopped seeing me.

4 Q. Do you know why he stopped seeing you in April 1993?

5 A. I think there might have been two reasons. I was too low ranking,

6 actually, for him to associate with and, secondly, I think he found me a

7 bit troublesome.

8 Q. Troublesome in what way, sir?

9 A. That's a good question. I don't know why he found me troublesome,

10 actually. He should not have done that.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Might I just point out for the record that the

12 gentleman is mere speculating.

13 THE WITNESS: No, he stopped receiving me.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, stop seeing him is one thing but speculating

15 as to why he stopped seeing him unless he can verify the reasons is still

16 speculation and we're dealing with facts, not speculation or fancy.


18 Q. During the times that you were at a meeting with Mr. Susak, can

19 you characterise, can you tell the Chamber your observations of Mr. Susak

20 in terms of his leadership, the way he participated in meetings, any

21 observations that you can share with the Judges about --

22 A. Yeah. He was a very sharp personality. He was very determined.

23 And the deals we made he kept them. So you could trust his word actually.

24 Q. Did you --

25 A. And I think he had a great influence on the Croatian politics.

Page 19471

1 Q. Did that influence, to your knowledge or observation, extend

2 beyond the borders of Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croats in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina as well?

4 A. It was generally said and generally known at the time that he had

5 good contacts in the Herceg-Bosna region.

6 Q. Did you ever directly observe or participate in meetings where

7 Mr. Susak was present along with perhaps various leaders, either military

8 or political leaders from as you've just described it Herceg-Bosna?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Having put -- having put Mr. Susak on the table, if you will, and

11 having asked you about your meetings or involvements with President

12 Tudjman, can you share with the Chamber any observations about the

13 interactions of President Tudjman or Mr. Susak in the course of any

14 meetings that you observed where they dealt with each other?

15 A. I never met Susak together with President Tudjman at the same

16 occasion.

17 Q. All right. Did you ever have any dealings with General Bobetko,

18 the head or chief officer of the Croatian army?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Approximately how many occasions?

21 A. On two or three occasions. One major when we discussed the

22 Prevlaka peninsula, late December 1992. Then there were more social

23 visits.

24 Q. And what -- what was your experience in dealing with General

25 Bobetko?

Page 19472

1 A. I found him very determined nationalist, of course, and besides

2 that I don't have very much judgement to make about him. I met him so few

3 times.

4 Q. During the -- during the occasions you did meet with him, were

5 these in the context of negotiations?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And how did you find him as a negotiator?

8 A. We didn't cover much ground. There was an agreement about the

9 peninsula, Prevlaka, signed by the Serbs. Zivota Panic, I think, signed

10 it in Geneva. The Croats never signed it, and they left the agreement.

11 And I tried to push him back into it, and I wasn't very successful in

12 that.

13 Q. Let me direct your attention, moving forward, to the period of

14 February, March of 1993. Did you become involved in any meetings at the

15 Sarajevo airport around that time?

16 A. Yes. I think I went there with Wahlgren, if I remember correctly,

17 the general Swedish force commander and had a meeting personally with

18 Ratko Mladic about bringing observers into Gorazde, if that is the

19 occasion you refer to.

20 Q. During the same period of meetings at the Sarajevo airport, did

21 you understand that General -- I'll try to follow your pronunciation,

22 Wahlgren, was he also involved in other meetings around that time with

23 various military leaders?

24 A. Yes, there was a cease-fire negotiating taking part at the same

25 occasion with General Petkovic, Mladic, and Halilovic, I believe it was.

Page 19473

1 And there was a document signed of some sort.

2 Q. Directing then -- moving on to April of 1993, did you become

3 involved at that time in various efforts, peace-making efforts that led to

4 your going to Mostar around the 18th of April?

5 A. Yeah. I don't know so much about the background. There must have

6 been something with the Vance Owen team working, but I was called up to

7 Wahlgren one day and there was Ejup Ganic, the vice-president of Bosnia,

8 and he asks Wahlgren to provide him with a high-ranking officer to go to

9 Mostar to help to establish peaceful conditions, and he claimed that there

10 was an agreement between himself and Mate -- yeah, Boban, Mate Boban. And

11 Wahlgren pointed me to go, to follow him up to Mostar.

12 Q. Let me just stop sir, and ask you because you've mentioned this

13 name a couple of times. It may be a name that people in the courtroom are

14 less familiar with than some of the others. General Wahlgren, what was

15 his position at this time?

16 A. He was force commander. And this was before there was a Special

17 Representative of Secretary-General. So he had the full responsibility

18 for the mission.

19 Q. When you say the entire mission, are you talking about all of


21 A. All of UNPROFOR, yes.

22 Q. All right. So General Wahlgren, as I understand it, called you

23 into a meeting with Mr. Ganic about trying -- he wanted someone to go to

24 Mostar to meet with Mr. Boban and others?

25 A. Yep.

Page 19474

1 Q. And what happened after that?

2 A. I went to see Boban at the -- to make sure that they really had

3 this agreement, and at that meeting he claimed that he also wanted -- they

4 had agreed to create peaceful conditions in Mostar. And then I went back

5 and had a meeting with Ejup Ganic, and we later left for Mostar. We flew

6 to Split, I believe.

7 Q. Before we get to that, let me go back and go a bit slower over a

8 couple of items. You've just mentioned a meeting with General Wahlgren

9 and Mr. Ganic as one. That was in Zagreb?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you meet with Mr. Boban in Zagreb later that same day?

12 A. Yes, at the Intercont [sic] Hotel.

13 Q. And then when you met with Mr. Ganic, you say, if I understood

14 you, you met with Mr. Ganic again. Was that again later that same day?

15 A. Yes. We met him I think at the Hotel Yugoslavia.

16 Q. And if you travelled to, in fact, then from Zagreb to Split to

17 Medjugorje, that was on the 18th of April, 1993. Can we then understand

18 that these other three meetings all took place on the 17th of --

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. Now, going to your meeting with Mr. Boban, can you tell us,

21 please, how -- how did that meeting -- how was it arranged? Where did you

22 meet him and what conversation did you have?

23 A. I met him down in the lobby of the Intercontinental Hotel, and he

24 explored some ideas he had about the future of Herceg-Bosna or Bosnia, but

25 I didn't at the moment understand it so clearly. I understood it better

Page 19475

1 when I met him in the Mostar region.

2 Q. Can you recall the positions or the things that Mr. Boban told you

3 when you met him at the Intercontinental Hotel?

4 A. He indicated, as I remember it, that there should be a division of

5 command between the Croats and the Muslims, and he was willing, he said,

6 to hand over the command of the Croatian forces north of Kiseljak-Vares

7 line to the Muslim forces, but he then demanded that all Muslim forces

8 should be put under Croatian command south of that line.

9 Q. Just so the record is clear, when you say a line, did he indicate

10 a line -- did he draw a line for you or give any --

11 A. Not on this occasion but later on he did.

12 Q. And this was a line roughly between Kiseljak and Vares?

13 A. Yeah, roughly. Including, I think, the two enclaves south of the

14 line.

15 Q. Did you have any reaction at that time on this first occasion

16 whether that -- that proposed division would have been acceptable to the

17 BiH government or the Muslim party, if you will, at that time?

18 A. No, not at all. And I don't think I fully understood what he told

19 me at that first occasion.

20 Q. And why do you say that this would not have been acceptable, as

21 you, say not at all?

22 A. No, I meant I did -- I did not have any conversation with the BH

23 authorities.

24 Q. At that time.

25 A. No.

Page 19476

1 Q. Thank you. You say that you travelled then to Mostar on the 18th

2 or to the -- well, ultimately perhaps Mostar, but to Medjugorje. Did you

3 go -- did you enter into a meeting that was already in progress when you

4 arrived there?

5 A. Yes. To my -- I was astonished. The meeting had already started

6 and it was led by the ECMM ambassador, Thebault, and so we -- they had to

7 start it once again over again when we entered into the localities, which

8 I believe was the hospital in Mostar.

9 Q. And just so the record is clear, when you travelled from Zagreb

10 that day and arrived in the meeting, Mr. Ganic was also travelling with

11 you?

12 A. Yes. We flew to Split and the Spanish Battalion took us to

13 Mostar.

14 Q. All right. Can you tell us briefly please, when you arrived at

15 the meeting, other than the fact that it had already started, can you tell

16 us who you saw at that meeting? And for now I'll just say at any part of

17 that meeting, whether they were there at the beginning or any time during

18 the course of the meeting, but who did you see participating in any part

19 of that meeting?

20 A. Mr. Jadranko Prlic was there. General Petkovic was there. The

21 Muslim General Pasalic was there. I had believed until recently that the

22 minister of defence, Stojic, was there, but obviously he arrived while I

23 was out talking to General Petkovic. So he was not present probably when

24 the meeting started.

25 Q. And anyone else that you can remember?

Page 19477

1 A. Well, of course Thebault, the ambassador, and Ganic, myself, my

2 adjutant, and probably General Lasic. I don't remember quite certain, but

3 I think he was there.

4 Q. And this Lasic was, just so -- for the record, that was Miljenko

5 Lasic who was an HVO commander in the Mostar area; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, let me go back a little bit through the names that you've

8 just mentioned. The first name you mentioned, if I'm not mistaken, is

9 Jadranko Prlic was there. What did you know about Mr. Prlic at that time,

10 about his position, anything that you knew at that time or observed or

11 learned on that day about him?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if we could just have non-compound

13 questions. The question becomes much more compound as Mr. Scott asks it.

14 So what did he know beforehand would be one question. What did he learn

15 that day, what did he learn thereafter. I would prefer having it that

16 way. That way it would assist us in having a clear record and also for

17 cross-examination purposes.

18 MR. SCOTT: Let me just restate the question, Your Honour.

19 Q. What did you know about Mr. Prlic when you arrived at the meeting

20 that day?

21 A. I know that he was uphelding the function of so-called Prime

22 Minister of Herceg-Bosna, and the president was Mate Boban. I might have

23 had lunch with him in Mostar before this date but I can't really recollect

24 that.

25 Q. Can you tell us whether you had any meetings or dealings with

Page 19478

1 Mr. Prlic after this meeting on the 18th of April, 1993?

2 A. I only ran into him in Medjugorje in 1994 at the hotel Ana Marija.

3 He sat together with some individuals.

4 Q. And perhaps we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but what

5 position or title did Mr. Prlic hold if you recall the second time you met

6 him in 1994?

7 A. I can't really tell. I anticipated -- I pass on that one.

8 Q. We'll come back to that in any event. You've also mentioned that

9 Mr. Petkovic, General Petkovic was one of the persons in attendance. Is

10 that the first time you had met General Petkovic or had you had any

11 dealings with him before?

12 A. No, this was the first time I saw him.

13 Q. Can you tell us what happened in terms of after Ambassador

14 Thebault had completed any remarks that he had, what happened at the

15 meeting?

16 A. Petkovic took the floor and said that he was not willing to talk

17 to anybody below the rank of Halilovic, the Muslim commander in chief.

18 And I didn't want to talk to anybody in this meeting. And I got the

19 impression that he was under heavy stress. So I asked if we could go

20 aside and talk between ourselves, and so we did.

21 Q. And can you tell us about the conversation you had with General

22 Petkovic on that occasion?

23 A. Well, he maintained that he was -- that Pasalic was far too low

24 rank to deal with Petkovic directly, and he demanded that Halilovic should

25 come to Mostar.

Page 19479

1 Q. How did you respond to that?

2 A. I responded saying that we should not allow formalities and

3 protocol to stop us from start working immediately in Mostar, and we

4 should create some sort of organisation for that. And he agreed later on

5 to that, Lasic and Pasalic could start talking to each other.

6 Q. Did you make any efforts or did you tell him that any efforts

7 would be made to have General Halilovic arrive in the Mostar region to

8 attend --

9 A. Yeah. I -- I promised that we would do everything to bring

10 Halilovic to -- to Mostar. At the time when I gave this promise I didn't

11 know if I could deliver, but I called Wahlgren to make sure that he was

12 pushed to -- to Mostar.

13 Q. Did the two of you then, General Petkovic and yourself, General,

14 did you then -- the two of you rejoin the larger meeting?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. Can you tell the Judges, after that, after the two of you rejoined

17 the meeting, did Mr. Petkovic play any further role in the meeting?

18 A. No. It was sort of rather violently interrupted by Mr. Stojic.

19 Q. And what happened?

20 A. Well, obviously he claimed that the Muslims had committed some

21 attacks in the area, but it ended with him threatening to kill --

22 promising that Ejup Ganic would never leave Mostar alive. And then he

23 banged the door and left, and Jadranko Prlic excused him.

24 Q. Do you recall how Mr. Stojic was dressed at the time that he --

25 A. As I remember --

Page 19480

1 Q. -- made these statements?

2 A. As I remember, he was in full uniform and armed.

3 Q. How was he armed if you recall?

4 A. Sidearm.

5 Q. Did he say anything else directed at Mr. Ganic personally, make

6 any statements or --

7 A. No, it was just this threat that he would not be able to leave

8 Mostar alive.

9 Q. And can we understand that that essentially brought the meeting to

10 an end?

11 A. Yes, it did. Nothing more was said. So we got Ejup Ganic into a

12 Spanish armoured carrier and took him to Medjugorje.

13 Q. Did you return after that time to the Spanish Battalion

14 headquarters at Medjugorje?

15 A. Yeah. We got word that General Morillon and Halilovic were on

16 their way to Medjugorje, so we went up there.

17 Q. And, in fact, did you speak with General Wahlgren later that

18 evening, again trying to ensure that Mr. Halilovic would be -- General

19 Halilovic would be arriving in Mostar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can I ask you now to look, and I hope we'll have better luck than

22 before, if you find Exhibit 1965, P 01965.

23 Sir, this is a report from ECMM dated the 19th of April, 1993.

24 And if I can direct your attention to the bottom of the first page, item

25 number 1 indicates, I believe, "CCO Pol advisor" but you can correct me if

Page 19481

1 I'm wrong, but I take to mean political advisor. And chief of UNMO,

2 Brigade-General Pellnas have accompanied vice-president Ejup Ganic from

3 Zagreb to Mostar for initiation of peace negotiations between Bosnian and

4 Bosnian Muslims. And then over to the next page. At the first meeting in

5 Mostar, attended by the above-mentioned persons and then down through

6 there indicating other persons that were attending.

7 Is this, sir -- appear to you to be a report concerning the

8 meeting that you've just told the Judges about in the last few minutes?

9 A. Yep. And I would guess that the ECMM presentation or members is

10 probably more correct since they were organising the meeting.

11 Q. Did you know -- this memo's written by someone or at least over

12 the name or from Ole Brix Andersen. Did you know Mr. Brix Andersen?

13 A. Yeah, I must have, but I don't remember him.

14 Q. Going back to page number 2, about not quite halfway down the page

15 you will I'll see a paragraph that begins chief of UNMO informed the

16 meeting that the international community and the UN has had all their

17 goodwill used up by the is Serbs and is not prepared to started all over

18 again with the Croats and the Muslims. He demanded that both sides

19 immediately stop fighting before further negotiations take place. Is that

20 at least a fair summary of part of the presentation you made at the time?

21 A. I suppose so.

22 Q. If I can ask you then to go over to the top of the third page.

23 And does item number 4 make reference to the intervention, we'll call it,

24 by Mr. Stojic? Do you see that?

25 A. I see it.

Page 19482

1 Q. Number 4.

2 A. I see it.

3 Q. There are several references throughout the document to something

4 called the joint operations commission or the establishment of a joint

5 commission. Can you tell the Judges what that meant to you or what you

6 and the other international representatives had in mind in terms of a

7 joint commission?

8 A. Well, the idea was that we would sit together, the UN and the two

9 parties, but also create teams who were also joined by the two parties and

10 a member of the UN or ECMM to go out to the spots where we had problems

11 for the moment. I suppose the name inclined that we had hoped that

12 together we would be able to formulate or even issue directives it.

13 Q. On -- and at paragraph number 5, just briefly it makes reference

14 to setting up or a meeting being anticipated for the following day the

15 19th of April, at 1000 hours, do you see that?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. And we'll come to that in a moment, perhaps, but is that basically

18 what happened the following day? That there was a meeting.

19 A. Yep, yep, yep.

20 Q. Can I ask you next, please, to look at Exhibit P 01980.

21 A. Where do I find that?

22 Q. Hopefully you'll -- 1980.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just quickly can I ask you to go to page -- it would be I

25 think the fourth page of the document, to paragraph number 12. And can

Page 19483

1 you just tell us is that again a -- an account or report of the meeting

2 that you attended on the 18th of April, 1993?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. Let me then take you on, General, to the following day, the 19th

5 of April. Did you make arrangements to travel -- you stayed at the

6 Medjugorje base, I take it.

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. And you made arrangements to travel into Mostar on the 19th?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who did you travel with on that day, if you recall?

11 A. Together with my adjutant and driver. And there might have been

12 ECMM people coming along as well.

13 Q. Did you have other UNMOs from that -- from the Mostar region who

14 were with you on that day?

15 A. Probably Major Ronksley and Grant Finlayson. I can't remember

16 exactly, but they were most certainly with me.

17 Q. Paul Ronksley and Grant Finlayson?

18 A. Finlayson, yes.

19 Q. Was that the first time you had met Mr. Finlayson in person?

20 A. I believe so, yes.

21 Q. Did you come to learn that morning that General Petkovic wanted to

22 meet you?

23 A. I'll pass on that one. I don't remember.

24 Q. Tell it us what else that you did then as you moved into Mostar on

25 the 19th of April. What do you recall -- first of all, just setting the

Page 19484

1 screen a bit. What do you recall about the -- what was happening in

2 Mostar at that time? What condition did you find it in? What was

3 happening there?

4 A. We got the definite feeling that the situation was extremely

5 tense, and there were no -- almost no people out in the streets. And why

6 we stayed on one place, ladies came down with tea and asked us in French

7 to "souvez" Mostar, save Mostar. So we felt a bit awkward standing there

8 with no resources. And then we went to this meeting.

9 Q. Let me ask you, if I could, to go to Exhibit P 02054. 2054.

10 A. Yep.

11 Q. Can you tell the Judges, please, what that document is?

12 A. It is my report to the force commander summing up my experience in

13 Mostar during the 18th to 23rd of April, I think it was.

14 Q. And you wrote that report on the 23rd of April, 1993?

15 A. I believe so, yes.

16 Q. Did you write that report when you were still in Mostar or when

17 you arrived back in Zagreb? If you recall.

18 A. I believe I wrote it immediately after having come back to my

19 headquarters.

20 Q. If I can ask you to go to the -- well, again just for the record

21 if we go to the second page of the document itself, to the top it

22 says "From," and it says "CMO." And does that stand for chief military

23 observer?

24 A. Chief military observer.

25 Q. And is that your signature next to that, sir?

Page 19485

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You give essentially a daily account. Let me ask you to go to the

3 third page and to the 19th of April, 1993. If I can direct your attention

4 back to the second paragraph or -- excuse me, to the second paragraph of

5 that section, the 19th of April. Your report says: "On may way to Mostar

6 I was informed that General Petkovic wanted to see me and I therefore went

7 directly to the ministry of defence. "He stated that he demanded

8 to see Halilovic before any work could start in the Mostar area. He

9 underlined the seriousness in the situation in Vitez, Travnik, and sell

10 notes a." I'm just reading. "he demanded that the focus point should be

11 Central Bosnia, not Mostar."

12 Now, do you recall a meeting with General Petkovic around the 19th

13 of April where these things were said?

14 A. Well, the protocol is correct. There's no doubt about it, or the

15 report is correct.

16 Q. At this time, if we read through that particular section, you were

17 still making efforts and hoping to have Mr. -- Or excuse me, General

18 Halilovic arrive later that day?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. And toward the end of that -- or at the end of that section before

21 a break in the page it says "He presented General Lasic and his

22 representative." Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is that what happened at that time when you next had a meeting

25 about the so-called joint commission, it was General Lasic who attended?

Page 19486

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. And did you in fact go to a meeting, what might be called an

3 organisational meeting of the joint commission?

4 A. Yes we did.

5 Q. Tell us just briefly what happened at that meeting. Who attend

6 and what happened.

7 A. It was Brigadier General Pasalic who came over from his

8 headquarters with a number of his bodyguards, and -- but I was -- it

9 wasn't very long until I was called away.

10 Q. And to where were you called?

11 A. I was called to see Stojic, minister of defence.

12 Q. Do you recall how you received this information, this request?

13 A. No, I don't remember. Probably somebody in the Croatian team got

14 the phone call.

15 Q. And did you then leave this meeting and go to attend a meeting

16 with Mr. Stojic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And where did you meet Mr. Stojic.

19 A. At the defence -- Ministry of Defence.

20 Q. In Mostar?

21 A. In Mostar, yes.

22 Q. And can you tell us about the meeting you had with Mr. Stojic at

23 that time? What did he say to you?

24 A. Well, firstly he apologised for his behaviour at the meeting with

25 Ejup Ganic, saying that he had not been able to control himself because

Page 19487

1 Ejup Ganic was such a scoundrel and guilty of so many atrocities.

2 Secondly, he said that they were not willing to talk to anybody

3 below the rank of Halilovic. And he also told me that we should not

4 concentrate on Mostar but, rather, go to other places which were more

5 important.

6 Q. Was that consistent with the same information, request that you

7 had received from General Petkovic?

8 A. I think this was the first occasion when they really pressed the

9 question of the other areas.

10 Q. Did you have any particular reason why they wanted to focus on

11 areas other than Mostar?

12 A. I believe they might have been -- the a places they mentioned

13 could be places they were not so well-off militarily at the moment. But

14 that is guess I from my point.

15 Q. Did Mr. Stojic say anything to you about the negotiations that

16 were then under way with the Muslims about the joint operations commission

17 or any of the other actions or activities that were taking place --

18 A. He explained to me that there was little use of negotiating with

19 the Muslims at all because you couldn't trust them anyway. So these were

20 the three messages he sent to me. Start in more important places. You

21 didn't do anything before Halilovic is here, and it would, anyway, be

22 quite useless.

23 Q. Now, going -- going on from that meeting with Mr. Stojic, did you

24 then have any further meetings or did you return to any meetings with Mr.

25 Pasalic and Lasic later that same day?

Page 19488

1 A. They -- there was a refusal to work with us before Halilovic came

2 in. So we couldn't get any work done, and I -- I then demanded to see

3 Mate Boban, but he could not be found, as they said.

4 Q. Do you recall who told you he could not -- well, who did you

5 express your concerns to?

6 A. Well, probably -- probably Pasalic. Could have been Zelenika, but

7 I'm not sure of that. The leader of a Croat delegation, anyway.

8 Q. So at that time, you considered the leaders -- is it correct that

9 the leaders of the Croat delegation at various times would be either

10 Mr. Lasic or Mr. Zelenika?

11 A. Yeah. I never really got at why they changed, showed up.

12 Q. All right. Did in fact General Morillon and Mr. -- or General

13 Halilovic arrive later that same day?

14 A. Yes, they did. I got message from Cedric Thornberry, I think,

15 that Halilovic was on his way.

16 Q. And who was Mr. Thornberry?

17 A. He was the political head. He was the chief political officer of

18 UNPROFOR at the time.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we're going to take a

20 break. So it's a quarter to 4.00. We are breaking for 20 minutes, and we

21 shall resume at five past 4.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. General, if we could then come back to this time when, I believe,

Page 19489

1 we left off about the time when General Morillon and Mr. Halilovic

2 arrived. Can you just describe for a moment how it was that they arrived,

3 what the situation was, and what happened after that in the sequence of

4 events?

5 A. As I remember, General Petkovic had come up to the Spanish

6 headquarter and was waiting with us before they arrived, and it was a big

7 entourage around Morillon with journalists, actually, coming down to

8 Medjugorje. But Halilovic was with him, and we immediate -- we starting a

9 meeting there to discuss with the two parties. And the atmosphere was

10 nice and we made concrete results.

11 Q. Did -- in the course of that meeting that you just described, did

12 General Morillon give you the floor at some point, and did you make any

13 presentation or proposal?

14 A. Yeah. I had a proposal that we should immediately separate the

15 two armies from each other. We should create a joint commission, and we

16 should send teams to the trouble spots.

17 Q. And just so the record is clear, we're now still talking on the --

18 this is the 19th of April; is that correct?

19 A. I believe so, yes.

20 Q. Was there a further meeting after this back in Mostar?

21 A. After that we all went down to Mostar, to the Minister of Defence,

22 and Halilovic and Petkovic both made statements about they're willing to

23 create a peaceful situation, and they gave orders to their subordinates to

24 cooperate and to become members of the joint commission and the teams

25 we're going to send out.

Page 19490

1 Q. General, just so the record is clear, when you say that there was

2 a meeting at the Ministry of Defence in Mostar, this was the Ministry of

3 Defence of, as you understood it --

4 A. Of Herceg-Bosna.

5 Q. All right. You indicated just a moment ago that at that time both

6 General Petkovic and General Halilovic expressed support for the plan.

7 Did you feel encouraged as a result of this meeting? Did you think that

8 this was actually going to result in substantial change in the local

9 environment at that time?

10 A. I think my Scandinavian novice had been crushed before that, so I

11 wasn't too optimistic really.

12 Q. Sorry, for the record Scandinavian what --

13 A. Novice. I was naive when I came down to this area.

14 Q. And you said it had been crushed before that, so you weren't

15 optimistic?

16 A. I wasn't too optimistic really. I was very tired because this was

17 late night, and I felt -- I didn't like what I saw, actually. There was a

18 lot of media things around, which was probably nothing.

19 Q. Going then to the next day, the 20th of April, did Mr. Morillon

20 and Mr. Ganic and Mr. Thebault leave Mostar on the morning of the 20th of

21 April for Central Bosnia?

22 A. Yes, they did, but I had ask Wahlgren that I wanted to be left

23 back in Mostar, because I thought that all the promises given should be

24 followed up upon a bit. So I stayed.

25 Q. And later that day was there, in fact, a further meeting of either

Page 19491

1 what was by then or at least in a formative stage what was supposed to be

2 the joint commission?

3 A. Yes. I believe it was at that time Zelenika, who showed up, and

4 Pasalic.

5 Q. And did you talk further about how the joint operations would go

6 forward at that point?

7 A. Yeah. First we discussed how to separate forces in Mostar and how

8 to get soldiers back to -- to the barracks.

9 Q. Can you tell the Judges whether the concept of a joint police

10 force or joint police patrols played any part in this?

11 A. Yes. This was the first time, I think, in the history of Mostar

12 that a joint police force was discussed after the conflict started, and

13 they agreed on that; and, actually, it was created, and I think it lived

14 for 24 hours or something like that.

15 Q. I think in one of your accounts, sir, you said you were actually

16 surprised or amazed that the two of them actually -- the two commanders,

17 Zelenika and Pasalic, actually agreed to that; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. I was a bit surprised, but it was a rather good atmosphere,

19 and I suppose they knew each other from a long time back.

20 Q. How so?

21 A. I suppose they both had been officers of the Yugoslav National

22 Army. So they had probably met, and we made some progress. I asked them

23 to mark on the maps all the spots they thought we had to handle, and there

24 was a great agreeance about these spots. Only one different; I don't

25 remember which one.

Page 19492

1 Q. Can you tell the Judges what some of the locations were the two of

2 them agreed were the problems areas that needed to be --

3 A. It was Jablanica, Konjic, and some other village, probably what I

4 have written there, Pasolice [phoen], which is probably Sovice [phoen],

5 and, of course, Mostar.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. So we created three teams out of the three other places, and I

8 decided to stay back in Mostar and handle Mostar myself.

9 Q. The three teams or these teams that were created to go to these

10 various locations, how were they being composed, or how were they

11 composed?

12 A. Major Ronksley was head of one team, and he had with him then a

13 Croatia and a Muslim officer; Grant Finlayson headed the other one; and

14 the third was headed by an ECMM. I think he was a Brit, and I don't

15 remember his name.

16 Q. All right. Did you speak with General Wahlgren -- excuse me,

17 Wahlgren, around this time, about using any element of UNPROFOR, the

18 Spanish Battalion?

19 A. Yep. I seeked his consent to be able to bring in as much as

20 possible of the Spanish Battalion, and I told him that I had talked to

21 Morillon about it, and he had agreed. So Wahlgren said, "Go on."

22 Q. Did that seem -- based on your peacekeeping experience in places

23 such as Cyprus and Afghanistan, did that seem to you like a reasonable way

24 forward?

25 A. Yes. It was a very conventional, peacekeeping method to interpose

Page 19493

1 between the parties to stop them from firing at each other.

2 Q. Did you then make arrangements, in fact -- and let me just say,

3 we'll come back to the joint patrols in a few minutes. But before we do

4 that, did you make efforts then to actually obtain some unit or component

5 from SpaBat and --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- deploy them in Mostar?

8 A. Yes. Unfortunately, I was only provided with one platoon, and so

9 I was -- I was transformed to a company commander that day. I had to take

10 action myself.

11 Q. And just so the record, when we're talking about a platoon in this

12 context, this was a platoon, what might be called a --

13 A. Four or five APCs with six or seven soldiers inside.

14 Q. All right. And these four or five APCs were then -- armoured

15 personnel carriers were put under your -- put at your disposal?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you do with them?

18 A. We agreed they should be interposed along Bulevar Revolution, I

19 think the name is. So we took it up position, and we were actually fired

20 at on one occasion.

21 Q. And this location, the Bulevar, was this a street that ran through

22 Mostar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how did you go about actually placing the various APCs then?

25 A. We placed them on positions where they should be able to see each

Page 19494

1 other, but also where we thought there were important buildings. So there

2 would be possibilities to support each other with firearms as they could

3 see each other, which also diminished the length of the area where we

4 interposed.

5 Q. All right. Sometime after you had deployed the APCs, did you

6 attend a further meeting or have a further communications with the two

7 delegations, the Croat delegation, if you will, and the Muslim or ABiH

8 delegation, about the joint police effort?

9 A. Yeah. I was given the location where the joint police force

10 should be located, and I was also having a promise that I go and see them,

11 so I went there during the evening.

12 Q. What did you find when you arrived?

13 A. I found a number of young soldiers, Croat, in the outer room and

14 Muslims in the inner, and there was what I would call a political officer

15 running around there. I met him later on as well. And they were not too

16 eager to do anything, and they had not received any orders to do anything,

17 and I think both parties thought it was too dangerous to go out in the

18 streets.

19 Q. Let me just ask you about the two groups. You said there was one

20 group, the Croats, in one room, and the Muslims in another room.

21 A. Yep.

22 Q. Did these men appear to you be policemen --

23 A. No.

24 Q. -- as we would think of as policemen?

25 A. No. They were soldiers.

Page 19495

1 Q. And what was your reaction to what you saw?

2 A. Well, of course, I thought it was nice that they had been able to

3 get them into the same house, so that was progress; but, otherwise, on

4 that, it was rather disappointing. So I went back to the HVO territorial

5 command headquarters and asked a fellow called Maric to call the two

6 commanders, Lasic and -- or Zelenika and Pasalic.

7 Q. And did Mr. Pasalic and Mr. Zelenika then respond to --

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. -- to that location?

10 A. Yeah. They arrived, and I was also a bit agitated because I

11 believe that they had been shot at. We heard -- we heard the noise and

12 gunshot. I really don't know how close it was, but it was enough to make

13 me agitated, so I was a bit rough when we met.

14 Q. Where in the course of -- when in the course of events that you

15 described in the last few minutes did you believe you had been shot at?

16 A. When we went back from the police headquarters.

17 Q. And you said that Mr. Pasalic and Mr. Zelenika did, in fact,

18 arrive at the location?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you said you were pretty unhappy. What did you tell them, and

21 what happened after that?

22 A. I believe I threatened to go public with media the next day if

23 they didn't take action.

24 Q. And --

25 A. It was one of the few cards I had to play.

Page 19496

1 Q. Why did you think that would make any difference?

2 A. I'm is not sure it would have made any difference, but it was the

3 negotiating card I had.

4 Q. And did you get any response from the two officers?

5 A. Yes. They went on telephone to, obviously, tell people to stop

6 shooting at us, but it was in Serbo-Croatian, so I don't know really what

7 was said.

8 Q. And -- well, let me ask you. Were you or any of your people shot

9 at any time later that evening?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did another Spanish Battalion contingent arrive sometime during

12 the evening?

13 A. Yeah. We got a platoon with carriers with 30-millimetre guns that

14 came up from Split, and we took them directly into the field.

15 Q. And this was, again, a unit of approximately five or six armoured

16 personnel carriers?

17 A. Yes, yes, yes. It was a rather young captain in command of this,

18 so I put his driver in my car and took him away, and patrolled Mostar

19 during the whole night actually.

20 Q. So this was in addition to those who were -- which had taken up

21 stationary positions --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. -- on the Bulevar?

24 A. Yes. We tried to look impressive with those 30-millimetre guns.

25 Q. And was there any conflict or fighting, if you know, in the course

Page 19497

1 of that night?

2 A. No. On the contrary, it was a rather nice morning the next day.

3 We were extremely tired; but when we got out, people started coming out.

4 So I think the message got around.

5 Q. Now, before going on to the 21st of April - I said a moment ago I

6 would come back to these joint patrols that you sent out under Major

7 Ronksley and Grant Finlayson and the other British officer - what reports

8 did you receive back from the three teams around this time?

9 A. Very bad reports.

10 Q. How so?

11 A. There was absolutely no delegation of authorities to the officers

12 following the teams.

13 Q. The delegation of authority to which officers?

14 A. To the Croat and the Muslim officers. I think from neither of the

15 sides. They had no instructions, as far as I can see, to help us.

16 Q. And why was that? It may be obvious; but so that there's no

17 doubt, why was that important?

18 A. It was obvious they had no interest in creating peaceful situation

19 on the spots. On one spot, maybe one side; on another spot, maybe the

20 other. But we got no cooperation. On the other hand, it was very

21 difficult to get through the check-points, and I think it was Major

22 Ronksley at Jablanica who was brought into a meeting where the team was

23 more or less used as a propaganda thing.

24 Q. Do you know how they were used --

25 A. No.

Page 19498

1 Q. -- in that way?

2 A. They just told me that way. And I don't know if this was this day

3 or late next day, but Grant Finlayson came back and said that he had run

4 into a platoon dressed in black with swastikas on their arms and actually

5 making the Nazi salute. So he was a bit agitated about this.

6 Q. Had this been in an area somewhere north of Jablanica?

7 A. I believe so. He was on his way to this village, but I don't

8 think he ever reached it.

9 Q. Did you and the other -- the UNMOs that were working with you,

10 such as Mr. Ronksley and Mr. Finlayson, make any decisions about whether

11 it was worthwhile at that time to continue with these --

12 A. Yeah. I made immediately the decision: Unless we got

13 cooperation, we should not -- we should pull back from these teams and not

14 participate.

15 Q. You mentioned a moment ago a report from Mr. Finlayson about a

16 unit, some soldiers in black uniforms. During your time in Mostar in

17 April 1993, did you see any units dressed in black uniforms?

18 A. Yeah. We -- there was a special -- I would guess it was a special

19 unit all dressed in black. Very well trained young men with handcuffs on

20 their hips, and under the command of the major in a leather jacket,

21 speaking, in what I remember, an American accent, and this was definitely

22 something special. I tried to find out what it was, and I asked an HVO

23 elderly officer. He was embarrassed, but he didn't want to tell me who

24 they were.

25 Q. And do you recall the location where you saw this unit in black

Page 19499

1 uniform?

2 A. Yeah, it was at Hotel Ero.

3 Q. Now, let me go forward then to the 21st of April, and were there a

4 meeting between the parties on that day or at least an attempt to have a

5 meeting? Maybe you can tell us whether the meetings took place or not.

6 A. Yes, it did, I think.

7 Q. Did either Mr. Lasic or Mr. Zelenika attend at least the first

8 meeting on that day?

9 A. It was Zelenika, I think. No. No, he didn't. It was this

10 policeman - it's in the report - Filipovic, who appeared instead.

11 Q. Did you have any understanding how it was that Mr. Filipovic came

12 on the scene, if you will, in the place of Mr. Lasic and Mr. Zelenika?

13 A. No. It was a bit astonishing that they did not show up, and I

14 came later to the conclusion that they might have had more important

15 things to do.

16 Q. Did you receive any information to that effect?

17 A. I heard reports later from people with the UNPROFOR, but they had

18 probably been out preparing for an operation in the field.

19 Q. And who I did you understand this Filipovic was? What position or

20 function did he hold in that area?

21 A. He was the chief of police, I understood. If it was in Mostar or

22 the whole of Herceg-Bosna, I'm not sure.

23 Q. Was he wearing a police uniform?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. What did you observe about his attitude or behaviour toward moving

Page 19500

1 this effort forward? Mr. Filipovic, I'm talking about.

2 A. It was not too bad during the first part of the day. I asked them

3 to materialise all their promises to move back their units and so on, and

4 to make sure that the joint police was started to work. I then went for a

5 lunch, and when I -- we started again, I think, at 1800 hours, and then

6 the atmosphere had changed completely.

7 Q. All right. How so?

8 A. Well, they -- on the surface, it was good because they produced

9 documents, written documents with orders that the units should withdraw.

10 But the process to -- of the withdrawal showed to be impossible, because

11 Filipovic said that they could not withdraw their units to the barracks

12 until the Muslims had evacuated Hotel Mostar, which was an intolerable

13 situation to have the Muslim soldiers.

14 Q. And -- sorry.

15 A. So I asked -- yeah. So I asked Pasalic why he had not pulled out,

16 and he said it was impossible because of Croat snipers around Hotel Mostar

17 to pull out. Then I asked the Croats to control their snipers, and Maric

18 said they could not possibly control their snipers --

19 Q. And --

20 A. -- which at the time appeared a bit untrue to me, because most

21 people you saw had mobile phones or other means of communication.

22 Q. What had been your experience up until that point in time in terms

23 of the -- the chain of command or authority of the HVO officers that you

24 had seen at that time?

25 A. I think like in most places in Bosnia the army obeyed orders.

Page 19501

1 They were -- they were controllable. I simply didn't believe the

2 statement that they could not control their snipers.

3 Q. After Mr. Maric had said that he couldn't control the snipers and,

4 therefore, since the snipers could not be controlled, the ABiH unit could

5 not be taken out of Hotel Mostar --

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. -- what did you do?

8 A. I was in a moment 22, so I had to do something or give it all.

9 Q. Sorry, what's moment 22?

10 A. Catch 22.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. So I had to do something or give it up. So I decided to try to do

13 something, and I asked Pasalic, "If I take in a Spanish APC platoon, I'll

14 take your soldiers out." And after some hesitation, he said yes.

15 Q. And I think we will not use the time that we have to go through

16 every aspect of removing the soldiers from -- the Muslim soldiers from the

17 Hotel Mostar; but in the course of the next several hours, on the night of

18 the 20th -- or I believe we're at the 21st --

19 A. 21st, yeah.

20 Q. -- 21st, did you, in fact, extract the ABiH soldiers from the

21 Mostar Hotel?

22 A. Yes, with some difficulties, because it showed up that the platoon

23 I had was the one only with the guns. So there was no place -- I had only

24 one APC and Pasalic said there were 35 people. That would have taken

25 three hours. But when we started, a lot of more Muslim soldiers came

Page 19502

1 running in from the surrounding buildings, so there may have been 65 or a

2 hundred of them. But eventually I got a hotel that we could do the job.

3 The only interesting thing is actually that first load of Muslim soldiers

4 were taken into East Mostar.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. The second load, he refused me to go across the bridge and

7 demanded that we should unload on the western side. That came to be the

8 case. The rest of the soldiers from Hotel Mostar unloaded on the western

9 side.

10 Q. Do you recall where -- what location on the west side of the river

11 were they were unloaded?

12 A. No. No. But rather close to the Bailey bridge, I believe.

13 Q. Now, let me go back to --

14 A. But I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure about that.

15 Q. Okay. Let me go back to a couple of points you mentioned, and

16 take it just a bit slower. You indicated at the time the vehicles that

17 were sent to you or were available to you at that moment, these were

18 essentially gun vehicles?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. They didn't have much carrying capacity in terms of passengers?

21 A. No. They were full with the crew already, so there was none in

22 it.

23 Q. So this limited your ability to evacuate soldiers because you

24 didn't have much carrying capacity --

25 A. Yeah.

Page 19503

1 Q. -- in other words.

2 A. I had a Red Cross-marked APC.

3 Q. That's what I'm going to ask you, sir. Before I do that, though,

4 when you left -- when you had had this meeting and you were still at the

5 meeting with Maric, and you were talking about the snipers and what we

6 were talking about a few moments ago, was it was announced at that time --

7 was there anyone else -- well, was there any other HVO officer at the

8 meeting at that time other than Mr. Maric?

9 A. I think so -- no, no. Filipovic and Maric.

10 Q. Filipovic, the police chief?

11 A. Police chief, yeah.

12 Q. And is it correct that Mr. Maric and Mr. Filipovic knew that you

13 and Mr. Pasalic were going to the Mostar Hotel for the purpose of

14 extracting the ABiH soldiers?

15 A. Yeah, certainly.

16 Q. Now, let's just cover this couple of points that happened in the

17 course of these events. You did, in fact, wind up using an ambulance -- a

18 vehicle marked as ambulance to remove these soldiers; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why?

21 A. It was the only vehicle available. We were not at war. I had the

22 agreements of the two parties to carry out the evacuation.

23 Q. Mr. Pasalic, General Pasalic, was moving around with you during

24 this time in an effort to get the soldiers, for instance, out of the

25 hotel?

Page 19504

1 A. Yep.

2 Q. Did you at some time in the course of those events put a UN helmet

3 on Mr. Pasalic?

4 A. I put a helmet with a blue clothing on it. If that is a blue

5 helmet, yes.

6 Q. It was coloured blue?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Why did you do that?

9 A. Because I wanted to keep him alive until we had evacuated

10 soldiers.

11 Q. And to the best your knowledge, as a result of that operation,

12 were all of the ABiH soldiers taken out of the Mostar Hotel on the night

13 of the 21st of April?

14 A. Yes, I believe so.

15 Q. Now, let me ask you, sir: Before we finish on this topic, can you

16 tell the Judges were the -- were all of the ABiH soldiers that you

17 encountered coming out of the hotel were they happy about leaving this

18 location?

19 A. They were extremely unhappy, and we had this what I would call a

20 political fella, who we met in the police headquarters, running around and

21 screaming and telling them not to leave, and we more or less put them into

22 bunches of seven and kicked them down the stairs and into the APC. And

23 I -- I think we were a bit stupid, because we could easily have been shot.

24 Q. And when you say "we kicked them," does that --?

25 A. My driver and myself, yes?

Page 19505

1 Q. And what was General Pasalic doing?

2 A. He was rather passive. He was not trying to help us very much.

3 Q. But was he giving orders to the soldiers?

4 A. Not really. Not really.

5 Q. And after you had taken the last soldier out, after you had made

6 the last trip, did you go back with General Pasalic to his headquarters?

7 A. I went with him to his headquarters.

8 Q. And where was his headquarters located at that time, do you

9 recall?

10 A. I know -- there was a name on this building, but I don't remember

11 it, but it was on the western side anyway.

12 Q. Was that the Vranica building?

13 A. I believe so, yes.

14 Q. And did you in the course of this it evening, the same evening

15 now, we're still on the night, essentially, the night of the 21st, 22nd of

16 April, after going back to the headquarters with Mr. Pasalic, did you meet

17 later that same night with, again, Mr. Filipovic and Mr. Maric?

18 A. Yes, we did.

19 Q. Where did you meet them?

20 A. At the same place as we had -- where we had been before. It was

21 quite -- quite light -- quite late. I guess around midnight sometimes.

22 Q. Did you report to them or had they otherwise become aware by this

23 time that the ABiH soldiers had been extracted from the Mostar Hotel?

24 A. Well, I told Filipovic and Maric that I had carried out my taking

25 away the hinder for them, to go on with bringing their soldiers back to

Page 19506

1 the barracks. And now I -- since I have taken away this obstacle, I

2 really anticipated that they would now do their part of the job.

3 Q. What was the reaction or response that you received from

4 Mr. Filipovic and Mr. Maric when you reported this information?

5 A. A thorough lack of enthusiasm.

6 Q. And how did understand that? How was that communicated to you?

7 A. It wasn't communicated more or less. They were sullen and sour.

8 They were not enthusiastic at all. If I had been expected any sort of

9 praise for what I had done the other night, I was incorrect. So I just

10 anticipated that what I had done was not in their interest.

11 Q. How would it not be in their interest?

12 A. It seems to me that the obvious conclusion is that they were not

13 too eager to make a peaceful situation in Mostar.

14 Q. Let's go on to the 22nd of April, 1993. Did you make efforts to

15 meet with Mate Boban that day?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And do you recall to whom you made the effort or made -- try to

18 make the arrangements --

19 A. I believe, it must have been through General Petkovic.

20 Q. And through those efforts, were you in fact able to arrange a

21 meeting with Mate Boban at that Spanish Battalion headquarters in

22 Medjugorje?

23 A. Yeah. He came up with his two BMWs and his bodyguards.

24 Q. Where did the two of you meet?

25 A. In the mess, the officers' mess or the canteen, of the Spanish

Page 19507

1 Battalion.

2 Q. And what did Mr. Boban and you talk about on the 22nd of April?

3 A. Well, I complained bitterly about the lack of cooperation from the

4 Croat side, and I told him about this platoon with swastikas and so on.

5 And he first told me that it was probably the Muslims have provoked, and

6 then I smiled a little and he said that it might have been some

7 individuals who were who were out of control.

8 Q. When you say "it was probably the Muslims who provoked," what do

9 you mean?

10 A. He said that it was probably a Muslim unit wearing swastikas to

11 provoke us.

12 Q. And did you take that answer, his position seriously?

13 A. No. He noticed that I smiled, so he changed and said that maybe

14 there were some individuals which he could not control.

15 Q. Did you indicate that you were going to report your experiences

16 and the problems you had with the HVO to the UN in New York?

17 A. Yeah. I made that in rather plain language. The situation got a

18 bit heated for a while.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier this afternoon, when you first met with

20 Mr. Boban in Zagreb at the Intercontinental Hotel, you said that he had

21 made some points to you about a line that he drew approximately between

22 Kiseljak and Vares.

23 A. He elaborated on this at this meeting, and it was the idea that

24 they should sort of divide the burden of fighting the Serbs. That he

25 should put his 15.000 soldiers north of the line under Muslim command, and

Page 19508

1 south of the line the Croatian army would be in -- or the HVO would be in

2 full control. So, in practice, what he suggested was a division of

3 Bosnia.

4 Q. Can I ask you to look again at the exhibit --

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Before we move on, can we get an explanation on

6 that? How does subordinating troops divides Bosnia? I know we can cover

7 that on cross-examination, but it would be interesting to get the

8 gentleman's opinion. How does one lead to the other?

9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'll leave it to cross-examination.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. General, I noticed your

11 comment as well. I didn't say anything. But since Mr. Karnavas is on his

12 feet about this, I'll take advantage of it. And can you tell me in what

13 way the deployment of the ABiH and the HVO would have led to a division of

14 Bosnia, if I understand you correctly?

15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, at this time, the power in Bosnia was

16 completely related to the presence of military power, and I have no doubt

17 in my mind that had the Croats been given all military powers south of

18 Kiseljak, Vares, they would have established what was already Herceg-Bosna

19 with the President and the Prime Minister. That is the only logic

20 explanation of what would happen if we had had this share of or division

21 of power.


23 Q. I was about to ask you, sir --

24 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry. Once the ice is broken, it's always

25 dangerous.

Page 19509

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

2 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I ask another question in relation to this?

3 You told us that Mate Boban said his 15.000 soldiers north of the

4 line, he would abandon to an ABiH command.


6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Did he say or do you know or did you know how

7 many Muslim soldiers there were south of the line?

8 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know, really.

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.

10 THE WITNESS: May I just add one thing? It is a known fact, and I

11 saw it myself, that in the Tuzla region of responsibility, the Croat units

12 were already rather well entwined with the Muslim forces up there.


14 Q. On the very points that have been raised is what I was attempting

15 to direct you to, was that if you could go back to your Exhibit P 02054,

16 your report of the 23rd of April.

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. If I can ask you to go to page 7 of that report, halfway down the

19 page to the section titled "Meeting with President Mate Boban 1993-4-22."

20 A. Yep.

21 Q. Do you have that?

22 A. Yep.

23 Q. Now, if you look -- scan down that page, sir, and continuing over

24 to the top half of the following page, is that a record of the meeting

25 that you made on the 23rd of April of a meeting that took place just the

Page 19510

1 day before?

2 A. Yep.

3 Q. If I can ask you on page 7, toward the last paragraph beginning on

4 that page, it says: "He then came back to the subject he already lectured

5 me upon in Zagreb; namely, the construction of a command system for the

6 military forces. The idea being that Croat forces in Northern Bosnia

7 should be under Muslim control and Muslim forces inside the Vance-Owen

8 Plan areas 8 and 10 should be under Croatia command."

9 Is that consistent with the account that you've just given us in

10 the last few minutes?

11 A. Yep.

12 Q. Further -- in further response perhaps the President's question to

13 the Muslim's question, if you go on to the next page, 8, and the second

14 line -- excuse me, second line starting on that page: "I answered that

15 the Muslims obviously fear that his forces in Northern Bosnia could be

16 withdrawn and that the joint command could be closed down."

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may, just for -- in order to be

18 complete and objective about this, perhaps we could read, at the top of

19 the page, the very first four lines before we go to what his answer might

20 have been, because there we see that what Mate Boban is asking the

21 gentleman is to assist and to -- to assist with Lord Owen in implementing

22 the plans that were already under discussion.

23 Now, of course, we're going to bring this out on

24 cross-examination, but it would appear at least that the gentleman, it

25 seems to me, was ignorant at the time of what the Vance-Owen Peace Plan

Page 19511

1 was all about and what was happening. So if we could read that, because

2 then we glean what exactly Mate Boban had in mind and what his intentions

3 were.

4 MR. SCOTT: Well, number one, Your Honour, there is absolutely no

5 basis to suggest that the ignorance of this man about the Vance-Owen

6 Plan. That's a completely gratuitous remark by Mr. Karnavas. Number two,

7 I assume that everyone in the courtroom could read a couple of lines

8 above, and everyone had the entire document in front of them. Of course,

9 we could read the entire document from page 1 to page -- to the end, if we

10 needed to. But I assume that everyone can read the full context it of the

11 statements, and, of course, Mr. Karnavas can pursue it further in

12 cross-examination, if he wishes.

13 Q. You raised with him and you then said: "I briefed him on my

14 experiences in the Mostar area. He was informed that the joint commission

15 with its three teams in the Mostar area not had," probably should be had

16 not, "been able to achieve its goals. This was caused by the

17 unwillingness of the Croat forces to cooperate."

18 Did you feel that when you left your meeting with Mr. Boban that

19 you had pretty much stated your grievances to him?

20 A. Yes, I believe so.

21 Q. Can I ask you to go to page 9, last paragraph above the heading

22 that says "Some suggestions."

23 You say -- your report says: "I fear, however, that the question

24 how to give them a decent influence over the Joint Command will be

25 extremely difficult to achieve through negotiations with the Croats. I

Page 19512

1 believe Mr. Boban is dedicated to creating a region in Southern Bosnia

2 where Croats are completely in control. That does not probably mean an

3 ethnically clean area, but surely an area where Muslims are politically

4 and military fully controlled. Process seems already to have started, and

5 will most probably and unfortunately include further fighting and in

6 places atrocities and ethnic cleansing."

7 As a result of the report -- this report was written, you said,

8 when you returned to Zagreb on the 23rd?

9 A. Yep.

10 Q. And let me just ask you: Before we move off to other periods of

11 time following your -- this particular mission, can you tell the Chamber

12 then what was your net assessment as you left Mostar on the 22nd or 23rd

13 as to the conditions there, what was happening?

14 A. I think the lines you just read there capture my feelings. The

15 report reflects also, I think, a bit of, should I say, sadness that we

16 couldn't achieve more, and I left in a very strong feeling that we had a

17 conflict coming. And I told verbally to Wahlgren that I believe we had

18 about a fortnight, three weeks, before it would be a full-scale war, and,

19 unfortunately, I was correct on that point.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: For the purpose of context, Your Honours, I don't

21 mean to interrupt, but if you could look at the previous two paragraphs.

22 I think that adds context to -- to the portion that the Prosecution read.

23 I think it's important that we see things in context as the gentleman

24 recalled them at the time.


Page 19513

1 Q. Before we go on, as of the time you left Mostar, had you seen any

2 indications that the joint police force was -- was working or had any

3 chance of working at that time in your assessment?

4 A. I don't even know if -- if it still existed when I left Mostar. I

5 doubt that.

6 Q. Do you recall that right around the time that you left Mostar that

7 there was some legislation passed that you've mentioned in one of your

8 accounts about the status of refugees in Mostar?

9 A. Yes. I think about the same day as we left, there was a decision

10 taken not to allow refugee Muslims to stay in Mostar.

11 Q. Let me then direct your attention forward to a meeting in Zagreb

12 on the 30th of April, 1993. Did you have a meeting with various parties

13 on that day?

14 A. Yes. Owen and Vance were in Zagreb, and I was summoned up by

15 Brigadier Wilson, who asked me to come and present some sort of solution

16 for creating a joint military force between the Croats and the Muslims.

17 Q. Who was General Wilson?

18 A. He was my predecessor, as chief military observer, and had left

19 for work as military advisor with the ICFY, International Conference.

20 Q. And do you remember who attended this meeting in Zagreb on the

21 30th of April for the HVO or Bosnian Croats side?

22 A. Yeah. General Petkovic was there.

23 Q. Did you present any proposals during this meeting about a possible

24 organised joint operation or Joint Command?

25 A. Yes, I did. I suggested a Joint Command and under it a joint

Page 19514

1 territorial army and two small units or two units of national army or

2 national guards, and it was deliberately put in a way what you could

3 interpret it in many ways. You could have a big territorial joint army,

4 and a very small National Guard. So you could have a rather small

5 national territorial unit and rather big national armies.

6 Q. Did -- sorry.

7 A. It was constructed to get an acceptance on the idea of a Joint

8 Command and a joint territorial thing, because if you could have them join

9 forces over the territory, it could probably stop them from killing each

10 other, maybe.

11 Q. And do you recall, sir - you said General Petkovic was at this

12 meeting - what his response or position was or participation in that

13 meeting?

14 A. I believe, he said on one occasion that he saw there is little

15 possibilities to form a joint -- a Joint Command together with the

16 Muslims. But my main impression was that he was absent-minded and not

17 very interested in what was going on that day.

18 Q. Based on what? What did you see or observe that caused you to

19 think that?

20 A. He was not very active in the conversation. I got the distinct

21 feeling that he was not very interested.

22 Q. And as you said a few moments ago, in fact, the fighting then did

23 break out in Mostar just, as you said, about a fortnight later, on the 9th

24 of May; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19515

1 Q. Do you recall receiving reports from UNMOs and UNPROFOR, in fact,

2 on the 9th and 10th of May, describing what was happening in Mostar at

3 that time?

4 A. Yes. I ordered the Mostar team to report directly to me about the

5 events in Mostar those days.

6 Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit, in your binder, P 02276.

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. This is an UNPROFOR report dated the 10th of May, 1993, titled or

9 subject "Mostar situation." And going to the body of the report on the

10 second page, does that give a -- essentially a chronology of events from

11 approximately 5.00 that morning until midnight on the 9th?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. A number of these entries, for example, the entry at 1530, and

14 about halfway down as one example, it says: "UNMO reports ten buses

15 carrying men, women, and children; left football stadium; and heading

16 towards Citluk. Stadium is now empty of civilians."

17 When you say "UNMO reports," is that indicative of the fact that

18 the UNMOs in the Mostar region were sending these reports to you and

19 UNPROFOR around this time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can I ask you to go next to Exhibit 2269. Sir, this appears to be

22 an UNPROFOR report dated the -- again, the 10th of May, 1993. And if we

23 go to the second page, up in the upper-left corner, I think -- can you see

24 2HQ UNPROFOR Zagreb?

25 A. I'm on the wrong paper. 22?

Page 19516

1 Q. 69. 2269.

2 A. Yeah. I don't have that paper. Maybe here it is it. Here it is.

3 Q. All right. If you can turn to the second page, there's a cover --

4 essentially a cover page, but there's a bunch of stamps on it?

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. And the second page, it says, towards the upper right -- excuse me

7 upper left corn, it says, "Headquarters, UNPROFOR Zagreb." Do you see

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In one of the boxes below that, again, listing number -- listing

11 various units or organisations, do you see "HQ UNMO"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And if I can ask you to turn to the next page of the document,

14 which is numbered page 2 in the upper right corner, in item C, Southern BH

15 command, item 1 Mostar, again, does this reflect information that you

16 began to receive on the 10th of May, 1993, as what was happening in

17 Mostar?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Toward the end of the paragraph, that numbered paragraph 1, it

20 says, "HVO check-points have been set up to deny movement in to and out of

21 the city. The SpaBat company has withdrawn from the city and is keeping

22 it under surveillance."

23 Did you come to know around this time that UNPROFOR and the

24 international organisations were being denied access into Mostar around

25 this time?

Page 19517

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let me next ask you to turn please to Exhibit P 10008. That would

3 be toward the back, I imagine. It's a big number. P 0 -- three 0s. I'm

4 sorry, P 10008. I think, sir, it will be pretty much -- it will be toward

5 the back of the bundle.

6 A. Okay. Sorry. Yes. Okay. Say again, please.

7 Q. 10008.

8 A. Okay. Yeah, got it.

9 Q. Thank you. Sir, this appears to be a memorandum or a

10 communication dated the 10th of May, 1993, from Wahlgren, UNPROFOR Zagreb,

11 to Annan, UN, New York. I take it Annan is Kofi Annan?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. And this makes reference to a meeting with Radic, the Chief of

14 Staff for the President's office, and Susak on the 10th of May, 1993. And

15 Mr. -- or General Wahlgren reports in the second sentence of that

16 paragraph number 1: "I was accompanied by DCM Pellnas and Abdul Aziz."

17 Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can you just confirm to the Judges that you did, in fact,

20 attend the meeting with Mr. Radic and Mr. Susak?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when it says Mr. Radic was the Chief of Staff, President's

23 office, he was the Chief of Staff to which president?

24 A. President Tudjman.

25 Q. And you said -- or Wahlgren says: "I was accompanied by DCM." Do

Page 19518

1 you recall who DCM was? Well, first of all, what that stands for, if you

2 recall?

3 A. All these abbreviations. Deputy chief of mission. I don't know

4 really.

5 Q. And do you recall who it was that also was with you that day,

6 besides General Wahlgren and Mr. Abdul Aziz, if you recall? If you

7 don't --

8 A. Should have been -- no, I don't remember. It should have been

9 Cedric Thornberry, but I don't remember.

10 Q. All right. Toward the end of that paragraph, on page 1, the first

11 section on page 1, you, again, indicate: "UNPROFOR was being prevented by

12 the HVO from having access into the city, making it difficult to assess

13 the situation there."

14 Was that on the 10th of May, 1993, and did that continue

15 throughout, really, the balance of 1993, the summer and fall of 1993, to

16 be one of the major international concerns?

17 A. I don't remember when we were first let back into the town. It

18 took quite a long time, I believe, before UN could enter.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I'm sorry, Mr. Scott. I am a bit puzzled because

20 I thought this was the document from Mr. Wahlgren, but you refer to it and

21 you say, "you state that" to the witness.

22 MR. SCOTT: If I did, I misspoke, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Okay. I thought there was something that I had

24 misunderstood. Line 10 on page 65.

25 MR. SCOTT: At any rate, Your Honour, if I did, I misspoke.

Page 19519



3 Q. The report, sir -- the document indicates what I had read to you

4 and this is general -- just so the record is clear and so there is no

5 confusion, this is General Whalgren's report; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I apologise if I misspoke. In the -- about the middle of that

8 paragraph, it said, "I stated," "I stated," I'm quoting, Your Honour, "I

9 stated that ECMM were reporting that Croatian army forces were moving

10 towards Mostar." Do you recall what other information either you or

11 UNPROFOR or General Wahlgren had on that -- at that time about the

12 involvement or movements of the Croatian army?

13 A. No, I don't recall. One has to go back to documents and reports

14 to be sure. I -- I don't have it in my head any longer.

15 Q. Going to page number 2, item 2, section 2, Radic referred to

16 Tudjman's message to President Izetbegovic and Boban, a copy of which is

17 attached. And while we're at this point, if I could then just ask you

18 keep your finger, if you can, at this exhibit, but would you also look at

19 P 02265.

20 A. 2265?

21 Q. Yes, please. And this appears to indeed be a letter from

22 President Tudjman dated that day, the 10th of May, 1993, to Izetbegovic

23 and Mr. Boban. And do you recall whether it was Mr. Radic or Mr. Susak,

24 one of those gentlemen in the meeting, that presented to -- to the --

25 let's just say, the UN delegation, General Wahlgren, yourself, the others,

Page 19520

1 a copy of President Tudjman's letter?

2 A. No, I don't remember.

3 Q. If you go back to the memorandum of the meeting with Radic and

4 Susak, again, toward the end of paragraph numbered 2, on the second page,

5 it says: "Susak suggested that UNPROFOR should contact Boban directly and

6 express the Croatian government's readiness to exert some influence on him

7 to cooperate. He said that he personally would guarantee access of the

8 people being taken out of the city."

9 Did -- do you recall whether Mr. Susak explained how it was that

10 he would personally guarantee --

11 A. No.

12 Q. -- access to the people in Mostar?

13 A. No.

14 Q. If I could next ask you to go to Exhibit 2254.

15 A. 22?

16 Q. Yes, correct. 2254.

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. This is a note by the president of the Security Council, again,

19 dated the 10th of May, 1993. Let me direct your attention in particular

20 to the second page, top of the second page. It says: "The Security

21 Council calls upon the Republic of Croatia in accordance with the

22 commitments under the Zagreb agreement of 25 April 1993, which is

23 (S/25659), to exert all its influence on the Bosnian Croat leadership and

24 paramilitary units with a view to ceasing immediately their attacks,

25 particularly in the area -- areas of Mostar, Jablanica, and Dreznica."

Page 19521

1 Do you recall at that time what the relationship was between the

2 Croatian government and the Bosnian Croat leadership?

3 A. I don't think there were any problems between the two parties at

4 that time. As I said earlier, it was generally known that everybody

5 thought in UNPROFOR that Susak had a special amount of influence in the

6 Herceg-Bosna region. But how the political lines were going and who was

7 commanding what, I don't, really.

8 Q. Do you know whether General Wahlgren and the others that were part

9 of the UN delegation that met with Susak and Radic on this very same day,

10 the 10th of May, 1993, did they have this Resolution in hand or -- excuse

11 me, note by the president of the Security Council in hand at the time they

12 met with Susak?

13 A. They might at least have had the text, I guess, which they could

14 have had on beforehand.

15 Q. All right. General, I want to move forward then to the summer --

16 we're leaving the 9th and 10th of May for a moment, and if we can move

17 into 1993. I would just like to show you some of the reports that you

18 were receiving during that time period. Could I ask you, first of all, to

19 go to Exhibit P 03094; in other words, 3094.

20 A. You say 03?

21 Q. Maybe they haven't been -- okay. 3094. If you have that, you'll

22 be there.

23 A. Yes. 3094. I got it.

24 Q. General Pellnas, this is a letter from the acting senior military

25 observer from BiH south, Medjugorje, on the 1st of July, 1993, addressed

Page 19522

1 to Lasic; and in the second paragraph, it starts: "I also find it rather

2 curious." Mr. Rosenroll indicates that they are still -- they're not

3 having any access in to Mostar as of, again, the 1st of July, 1993. I

4 think you said a few moments ago, there was a lack of absence into Mostar

5 for a substantial period of time; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. A lack of presence.

7 Q. How did that affect the ability -- I mean, again, for the record,

8 so you -- how did that affect the ability of the UNMOs to do their job?

9 A. Well, we could not report what was going on inside Mostar, for

10 sure, and that was the effect of it. Not exact what you could notice from

11 a distance then.

12 Q. Let me ask you to next go to Exhibit - and I'll try not to confuse

13 you - just 3148.

14 This appears to be a report from UNMO -- an UNMO report dated the

15 3rd of July, 1993. And, again, if I can just direct your attention

16 quickly to section -- it's under "General situation" in item B: "BH

17 south: Mostar access still denied ..." Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Let me ask you to go to the fourth page of the -- that exhibit, to

20 the bottom of that page under -- under heading D, "Meetings." And BH

21 south reports contacted "HVO LO," I submit is liaison officer.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. " ... regards restriction of movement, and in particular the

24 inability -- inability of MXA to return to Jablanica. LO stated he had

25 passed our concerns on to higher authority and would forward their reply

Page 19523

1 when it was forthcoming."

2 Do you recall any further information about who that BH south was

3 dealing with at the time as the liaison officer, and what more senior

4 authorities were involved in this?

5 A. No.

6 Q. If I can ask you to look at Exhibit 3376.

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. And this appears to be an UNMO report dated the 10th of July,

9 1993, and on the second page under, again, section B --

10 A. Hang on.

11 Q. Yes. Sorry. "BH south."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you see that again: "Mostar: Access again denied"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Let me just look at a few of these, and I will

16 probably discard a few for the time being.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, in the interest of time, I will skip over

18 some of these, but with the understanding that we will submit them by

19 motion or otherwise.

20 Q. If I can ask you to go, sir, to the next -- next to 4464.

21 A. Yep.

22 Q. Did you have an UNMO in the area around -- in August of 19 --

23 1993, excuse me, named, if you recall - and he realise you may not recall

24 all these names - but Dan Ashitey?

25 A. No. There were over 500 coming and going, so I don't remember

Page 19524

1 many names, unless I really bumped into them and talked it them.

2 Q. If I can ask you to go to the second page of this report, toward

3 the bottom of the second page, it says: "Discussion, General

4 Petkovic/Captain Collingwood. In negotiations with UNMO requirements, the

5 following points were required by UNMOs from the HVO." The first one

6 mentions a police escort.

7 Then going on to the next page, number 2, "Access/ability for

8 UNMOs to cross front line north of Buna." And, again, this is dated, I

9 should say, to put this in context, this is the 25th of August, 1993.

10 3, "Access to Mostar by any route (HVO controlled) at all times."

11 And then we can see points 4 and point 5. And then in the next paragraph,

12 we get the responses to the various five points. And if I can ask you to

13 look in particular about four lines down in that section, it says, "Item

14 3," which is, "Access to Mostar by any route." "Item 3 was acknowledged

15 although it was questioned and not well-received."

16 Did you receive any other information from the UNMOs under your

17 command around this time, what the nature of the continuing objection was

18 to granting access to the UNMOs was?

19 A. I don't recollect that.

20 Q. Further into that paragraph, "When asked how long UNMOs expected

21 to remain in Mostar, I replied," again I'm quoting, I being presumably

22 Ashitey?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "That it was our intention to remain until the cease-fire

25 completely breaks down. To this, General Petkovic replied that we should

Page 19525

1 not ask for HVO help to get out, if the cease-fire breaks."

2 And do you know if, in fact, the UNMOs got any greater access to

3 Mostar, in fact, around this time, late August 1993?

4 A. I don't remember. To see that, one has to check with reports

5 coming in later, I think, to see what happened actually.

6 Q. Very well. Let me just show you the next exhibit, 4785, primarily

7 because I want to ask you about a topic that's only come up once or twice,

8 and if you can shed any light on it. This is another UNMO report dated

9 the 3rd of September, 1993, from BiH south, paragraph under "Operations,"

10 paragraph B, "Patrols, MX5," which I think the Chamber knows is the

11 UNMO -- the designation or the call-sign for the UNMO team in Mostar?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It talks about apparently 7 to 8.000 refugees in Blagaj.

14 Let me ask you though, specifically, to go to the next page, item

15 F and item G.

16 Did you understand, during this time, that one of things that both

17 UNPROFOR and UNMOs were attempting to monitor, in addition to other

18 things, was aircraft, the movement of aircraft in the airspace of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. No. I don't think that the air observers on the ground took a

21 special interest in aircraft; but I suppose if they saw them, they would

22 report on them.

23 Q. For example, under section F, it gives the report. The report's

24 coming from an ABiH brigade in Blagaj, but it's reporting the use of

25 aircraft by HVO to drop some sort of clusters, it says, of 120-millimetre

Page 19526

1 mortar bombs. Do you know whether there was, apart from international

2 flights, whether there was a no-fly zone in Bosnia-Herzegovina during this

3 time?

4 A. I would have to go back to papers to see what no-fly zones

5 indicated at that time. So I pass on at that question.

6 Q. All right. Item G, "Other," references air drops. "Aircraft

7 still dropping pallets too far into the east into Serb territory. BiH

8 forces report no aid reaching areas north and south of Mostar. These

9 areas require aid as much as main Mostar." And it's suggesting some

10 various map coordinates are listed there for the purposes of the air

11 drops.

12 What do you recall about the international community's efforts to

13 air drop relief supplies into the Mostar area around this time?

14 A. I remember that there were air drops; and, obviously, reading

15 this, they were as uncontrolled as all this -- or inaccurate, I would say.

16 Q. Can I ask you to go next to 5085, an UNMO report dated the 15th of

17 September, 1993. And if I can ask you to go to the -- physically turn to

18 the fourth page of the document. And, again, in the --

19 A. Which I don't have. I have page 3 and 5.

20 Q. All right. If you go to what's marked as page 5, and item G,

21 "Other," and the only part of the document I'll take the time to ask you

22 about at this point is the paragraph that says: "BH informed the UNMOs

23 that cease-fire agreement has been reached between BH and Croatia.

24 Apparent --" excuse me, "agreement to take effect 18 September.

25 Apparently, 79th cease-fire recorded and success unlikely. It was

Page 19527

1 confirmed that agreement was with Croatia and not BH Croats."

2 And let me just ask you, sir, if we can get your general -- your

3 reaction here to -- does that sound to you about right, that by September

4 of 1993 there had been something like 79 cease-fires?

5 A. If not more.

6 Q. What was your, not only your personal, but the other

7 internationals that you were also working with, how did you feel about the

8 situation when the cease-fire was announced during these times?

9 A. Well, after a while, in these conditions, you -- you don't take

10 much notice of paperworks or oral statements. You wait to see what

11 happens. So you don't get, I would say, optimistic or pessimistic about

12 the announcement that a cease-fire has been signed. You wait and see what

13 happens before you make any valuation of it.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak, do you have a

15 problem?

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Croatia isn't

17 mentioned anywhere in the Croatian translation, but the Croatian Defence

18 Council. Now, an agreement was never written between the -- between

19 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was always the BH army and the

20 Croatian Defence Council, if it was an agreement and in the Croatian text.

21 So it just says "Croatia," so can we clear that point up, please.


23 Q. Well, only the -- sir, if you still have that item in front of

24 you, item G, "the 79th cease-fire," does the UNMO report state: "It was

25 confirmed that agreement was with Croatia and not BH Croats"?

Page 19528

1 A. Yeah. I have no comment on it regarding what was just said. It

2 may well be incorrect in this paper. It could be.

3 Q. Can I ask you to go to Exhibit 5127.

4 A. Yep.

5 Q. Under BH south, again, "Mostar. Unstable. Thirteen impacts fired

6 directly at team Mostar east accommodation from 20-millimetre

7 anti-aircraft by HVO this morning. Verbal and written protests lodged.

8 Firing stopped when team Mostar West went to Mostar OZ," operational zone,

9 "to complain."

10 Can you tell the Judges what sorts of reporting were you receiving

11 from UNMOs in the Mostar region about their personal situations during

12 this time, the summer and fall of 1993, in terms of sniping or shelling?

13 A. I was at the time very skeptic about having the observers inside

14 the town at all because it was rather dangerous. So it is always a

15 decision to make, whether it makes -- whether the risk is worth taking.

16 And as it turned out, we decided to stay, but I was not completely in

17 control of this. The BH command also had a great say in where to locate

18 the observers, even move than I had.

19 Q. And just so the record is clear, because some of these

20 abbreviations might become confusing. When you say "BH command," you're

21 talking about UNPROFOR command?

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Exhibit 5234. UNMO report from the 20th September 1993. Item

24 number 1, "General situation. Medjugorje calm. Mostar, unrelenting

25 bombardment of East Mostar since 0600 hours today. Hundreds of artillery,

Page 19529

1 tank, and mortar rounds. UNMOs on the east bank have had to bureau deep

2 into their bunker." It says, "HVO explains bombardment as punishment for

3 BiH attack on Hum hill.

4 Did you recall -- I mean, other than this one, do recall other

5 reports from your UNMO teams, from the Mostar region, that some of this

6 shelling will take place as some sort of punishment or payback for

7 something that had happened in the area?

8 A. There was a constant rather heavy shelling going on, and I don't

9 remember that it was related to punishment or anything like that.

10 Q. And I think, finally, on this one, and perhaps the final one

11 before the break - I think we're coming up on about the time for the

12 break - 5519. And this is an UNMO report from the -- covering the period

13 the 29th of September to 30th of September. And I just want to ask you,

14 specifically, on the last -- no, I'm sorry, not the -- the next to last

15 page.

16 On that page, on item number 6, again, aircraft sightings, and it

17 makes reference to the times coincided with airdrop times. What was the

18 point of -- what was the point of your UNMO officers reporting this

19 information about aircraft sightings? Why was that part of their report,

20 I guess, is the point?

21 A. Well, I think they would report anything they would think was of

22 any significance.

23 Q. Under SMO assessment, SMO is senior military observer?

24 A. Yep.

25 Q. In item 8: "The situation remains calm. However, although we

Page 19530

1 cannot say there is a build-up, there is a lot of movement and activity

2 around the AOR."

3 A. Area of responsibility, yes.

4 Q. "Denial of access over the past two days supports speculation the

5 HV are operating in the region north of Neum." Do you recall any

6 particular reports or information you were receiving around the end of

7 September, 1993, about HV operations in that area?

8 A. No, I don't especially recall. When you read one report now, you

9 may see paragraphs which you think are remarkable, but it was a steady

10 flow of reports on all corners of the former Yugoslavia, and we might have

11 well at this time been pretty heavy occupied with problems in Mostar for

12 the moment.

13 Q. Let me just ask you this, because hopefully we'll come back to

14 this topic before we finish your testimony. Is that something the UNMOs

15 were looking at or trying to be aware of on a regular basis?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. No?

18 A. I don't think so.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. Well, first of all, it seldom happened that they had to report an

21 aircraft passing and so on; and, secondly, I think they normally were not,

22 I should say, focused on these sort of things. We had this no fly

23 organisation with special teams placed at the airports and checking what

24 was going up and down. We had observers at the Zagreb airport, for

25 example.

Page 19531

1 Q. Let me ask you about the -- my final question, perhaps, before the

2 break is the second topic that I raised under this: What about the topic

3 or subject of HV movements, the Croatian army movements or involvement, is

4 that something that the UNMOs were attentive to or reporting?

5 A. Absolutely. They would report immediately if there were HV

6 movement inside Bosnia.

7 Q. And why was that something deemed important or reportable?

8 A. Well, that would have been an intrusion by Croatia into another

9 acknowledged country.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I suggest that might be the time for

11 the next break.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have a 20-minute break.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're back in session.


17 Q. General Pellnas, I'd like to move now to the end of 1993, to

18 approximately December. First of all, let me just ask you how you became

19 involved, and we might work backwards just a little bit, so you can tell

20 us the context, as you recall it, for the request for you to become

21 involved in a particular effort.

22 In December 1993, were you asked by Lord Owen to become involved

23 in negotiations, again, in Mostar concerning something called the -- that

24 was being proposed as the European Union Administration of the City of

25 Mostar?

Page 19532

1 A. Yes. He sent me out there to -- there was an agreement between

2 the parties in Bosnia. He sent me out to "delineate," as he said, the

3 area that would be administrated by the EU, and that was all the guidance

4 he gave me.

5 Q. All right. Let's start when you said -- so there's no

6 misunderstanding, when you said there was an agreement between the parties

7 in Bosnia, there was agreement as to how the EU --

8 A. That's EU should administer this area.

9 Q. So in concept?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Were you sent then into Mostar again to -- in an effort to do

12 that?

13 A. Yeah. It was very strange mission because as you know the

14 fighting was still going on in Mostar and I was sent there to make the

15 parties agree on how to delineate the area for the EU.

16 Q. And do you know -- do you have any recollection of approximately

17 when this concept of an EU administration of Mostar kind of as a UN -- or

18 EU, excuse me, protectorate, when that concept first began to be

19 discussed?

20 A. No, I don't know.

21 Q. Had there been any discussion around this time about who might

22 serve as the EU administrator of Mostar?

23 A. The I think the first rumours had come up when I started that it

24 was Mr. Koschnick from Bremen who was the German candidate for the job.

25 Q. Let me ask you to look to Exhibit 5757. First of all, let me ask

Page 19533

1 you if we can just again set the context a bit more. As of the time that

2 you got involved several months later, when you arrived in Mostar in

3 January 1994, what was the position of the Croat side that you first

4 encountered when you arrived in Mostar in January? What was their

5 position as to the delineation or administration of Mostar?

6 A. It was headed by a lawyer by the name Tomic, and when we started

7 to discuss the delineation of Mostar, he produced the idea that the EU

8 would administer -- should administer East Mostar and nothing more.

9 Q. And was that consistent with what you understood the EU concept or

10 mandate to be?

11 A. No, the EU should -- the idea was to maintain a multi-cultural

12 Mostar with the entire city under the administration.

13 Q. Now if we go then back to 5757, this appears to be a letter from

14 Mate Boban dated the 8th of October, 1993. And if you look at the last

15 page, it's being addressed to particularly Owen and Stoltenberg, but also

16 European Community foreign affairs ministers. Do you see that?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. Now, the -- the letter goes on for some pages talking about why

19 Mostar is a Croat city, and if anyone wants to argue with me about that,

20 everyone can read the letter, and the Judges can read the letter. But if

21 you can find -- if you go to page number 3, to the middle of the page --

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. The second paragraph beginning on that page which says, "In all

24 types," and at the end of that paragraph Mr. Boban says, the conclusion of

25 the last preceding sentence: "The Croats only have Mostar. Therefore,

Page 19534

1 the Western European Union request is absurd." And is that reflective of

2 the position or posture that you encountered when you arrived in Mostar in

3 January 1994?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, sir, before answering that question. I

5 object to the form of the question. How can this gentleman possibly

6 comment with respect to what Mate Boban is saying in this letter about the

7 absurdity of what the Western governments think versus what Mr. Tomic, I

8 believe, the lawyer, was advocating. Perhaps if there was more testimony,

9 it might assist but I think it's best to take the testimony from the

10 witness as far as what he heard, what he learned in great detail, as

11 opposed to pointing to a letter and saying, does this comport with Tomic's

12 position, because I think Mr. Boban is speaking about something in a much

13 broader context.

14 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I think my question was a proper

15 one and the witness was there on the ground in -- in January and February,

16 and I think he can say -- he can say for himself whether this sort of --

17 this sort of feeling, this sort of position as depicted in this letter are

18 similar to the positions that he encountered himself during those

19 negotiations. It's a very simple question.

20 Q. Is that correct, sir?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Can we get a ruling, Your Honour? Can we get a

22 ruling first?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Scott, I'm trying to

24 understand what you're getting at and what you would like the witness to

25 express. There is a sentence on page 3, and so you would like the

Page 19535

1 witness -- you would like to ask the witness whether what is said here in

2 the sentence is indeed what he saw, what he learnt while on the ground.

3 Is that the idea?

4 MR. SCOTT: Well, not just that particular sentence, Your Honour.

5 If we want to spend the next 15 minutes reading the entire letter from the

6 beginning to end we can do that. It seemed to me that's not necessary

7 when everyone in the courtroom has the letter.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Scott, the problem is

9 that he doesn't know the letter himself. I mean, he did not know the

10 letter then.

11 MR. SCOTT: That was not the question. The question was whether

12 what is depicted in this letter, which he can read as well as -- or better

13 than many of us, is that the same -- essentially, the same or similar

14 posture that he encountered when he arrived on the ground in January,

15 February, 1994. And he can clearly say, "Yes, this is basically what I --

16 the same posture or attitude that I encountered at the time."

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Again Mr. President, Mr. Boban is speaking about

18 other matters in a much broader sense. The gentleman was there at a

19 meeting. He met with Mr. Tomic, and I believe that later on he met with

20 Mr. Buntic, and then I believe there was also another meeting with Mr. --

21 THE WITNESS: Tomic.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: And Buntic was there, although Buntic didn't say

23 anything. Perhaps it would be better to get the information from the

24 gentleman. He was there. What did he observe, what did he hear, what was

25 learned? Then if the Prosecution feels the need to go back because they

Page 19536

1 want to, somehow, get the gentleman to say, "Yes, this letter comports

2 with what I heard," perhaps there would be sufficient foundation, but at

3 this point in time the gentleman is being asked to divine into what Mr.

4 Boban was thinking at the time when he wrote the letter -- well, that's

5 how I understand it.

6 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, with due respect, I understand this

7 differently. We read what Mr. Boban wrote, and the witness has spoken to

8 several people in Mostar about Mostar and the future of Mostar, and the

9 question is whether these other people told him the same thing, whether

10 the essence of what all the others told them corresponds to what is

11 written in the letter. I think that's a legitimate question.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: If indeed it is a legitimate question, then I

13 would, with all respect, suggest that perhaps we hear from the witness --

14 from the witness all the meetings with respect to this particular issue,

15 because he needs to get in Mr. Buntic, who agrees, and then Mr. Tomic

16 again, who apparently goes back. So I think, perhaps, if we hear it all

17 it might be better in order to understand, but I leave it -- I'll leave it

18 up to the Court.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, please then, Mr. Scott,

20 can you please ask your question.


22 Q. General Pellnas, you've heard the question I put to you several

23 times now. If it will help make it -- if it will help give you some

24 further context and orientation on the letter, because I know the use of

25 the police in Mostar was something that you were interested in all -- for

Page 19537

1 a long time, including back in April 1993, so let me, before I put a

2 further question to you, go back to the first paragraph of Mr. Boban's

3 letter and it says:

4 "Following the Western European Union 5 October 1993 statement

5 about the initiation of planning for a possible police deployment as

6 support forces of the reputed European Community planned protectorate of

7 Mostar, allow me to stipulate the position of the Croat party in relation

8 to this issue."

9 Again, when you look at this letter and the claims to Mostar and

10 everything that's in here, the demographics, everything that everyone in

11 the courtroom has in front of them and can read, is this similar to the

12 attitude and positions that you encountered, voiced by the Bosnian Croat

13 representatives in your negotiations in January, February 1994?

14 A. As far as comes to what Tomic said during negotiations, I think he

15 fairly well reflected these opinions about Mostar.

16 Q. And do you know who made Mr. Tomic the head of the Bosnian Croat

17 delegation for these purposes?

18 A. No. I anticipated that it should have been Mate Boban, but I

19 don't know.

20 Q. Did you learn before leaving Zagreb to go once again to Mostar for

21 the purposes of these negotiations who would be leading the Croat team,

22 the Bosnian Croat team or delegation, if you will?

23 A. Yes. I learnt that a certain Mr. Tomic will lead the Croat

24 delegation. We had no information at the time who was going to lead the

25 Muslim delegation.

Page 19538

1 Q. And when you heard about Mr. Tomic being involved in this

2 capacity, did you have some information or basis for being concerned about

3 your future dealings with Mr. Tomic and how productive that might be?

4 A. Well, I got information, and I don't remember from whom, that he

5 was a hard-liner and absolutely dedicated to Mate Boban. So I got a bit

6 worried about the prospects.

7 Q. What did you do based on those concerns?

8 A. I went to see Mr. Sarinic in Zagreb.

9 Q. Who was Mr. Sarinic?

10 A. He was chief of Croatian security with Tudjman.

11 Q. And what did you say to Mr. Sarinic?

12 A. I raised my fear that I would run into problems, and he then

13 assured me that I would have no problem and Tomic would be very reasonable

14 and he was not in the pocket of Mate Boban.

15 Q. Did you learn anything around this time as to what Mr. Boban's

16 status or position was in the Herceg-Bosna or HVO government?

17 A. Up till the moment when the federation became a political reality,

18 I think he had a very strong position, but after that he -- he was an

19 obstacle to the future more than a possibility.

20 Q. Do you know what position or role he was given after he was

21 removed as president of Herceg-Bosna?

22 A. He was the -- he was -- became the president of the Croatian

23 petrol company INA.

24 Q. Where was that company, that petroleum oil company, based?

25 A. It was based in Zagreb, so he had his there, and he stayed most of

Page 19539

1 the time at the Intercont.

2 Q. The Intercontinental Hotel?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And so you'd received these assurance that is Mr. Tomic would not

5 be a problem and then when did you -- what do you recall arriving in

6 Mostar then?

7 A. I don't remember the date now. It may be in the paper somewhere.

8 It's -- I went up to the Spanish Battalion, and they were not too happy to

9 see me because they haven't heard about it. So we called

10 General Briquemont who was the commander-in-chief in Bosnia and he was

11 also very irritated because he had not been informed, and he ordered the

12 Spanish Battalion to house me and -- but to give me no further assistance.

13 Q. Let me just stop so the record is clear before we go too much

14 further. I notice that in the transcript the reporter has made a note at

15 line 20 that INA, I-N-A, and I think there won't be any dispute with the

16 name, that is the name of the oil company that Mr. -- or General Pellnas

17 was referring to, I-N-A?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that correct, sir?

20 A. That should be capital letters, I think.

21 Q. So once you arrived in Mostar or Medjugorje and were -- found

22 yourself a place to stay, did you see Grant Finlayson again?

23 A. Yes. I thought that the atmosphere in the Spanish Battalion

24 headquarter was not likely to produce a cup of coffee, so I called my

25 observers and asked them to take me out. So they gave me transport and

Page 19540

1 took care of me.

2 Q. And --

3 A. And I had to, because we had no information about the Muslim

4 delegation. There was none. So I had to decide to go into Mostar and try

5 to find it.

6 Q. And when you arrived in Mostar, I believe you said -- or

7 Medjugorje, and correct me, please, you stayed in a hotel during this

8 time, I think?

9 A. I stayed in the hotel Ana Marija in Medjugorje.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And did you check into the hotel sometime that

11 day?

12 A. Yes, I did during the evening.

13 Q. And did you encounter anyone that you had met before in the hotel?

14 A. Yeah. Jadranko Prlic was there with an entourage of, I think,

15 three -- maybe two or three people in leather jackets, and with all the

16 normal insignias what goes with leather jackets in this area.

17 Q. Meaning?

18 A. Meaning gold rings and other things.

19 Q. And did you have a conversation or exchange words with Mr. Prlic

20 at this time?

21 A. He came up and said hello, and quite ironically asked if I was

22 going there -- if I had come to create peace.

23 Q. Had you seen -- in your time in the former Yugoslavia, had you

24 encountered other, as you said, men that were dressed in this way?

25 A. Yeah.

Page 19541

1 Q. Where?

2 A. On many places, not least Montenegro.

3 Q. Doing what?

4 A. In -- they were most of the time in -- in the business, that is,

5 smuggling.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps -- perhaps the gentleman should -- should

7 be asked to quote from his book, because he's referring to Montenegrin

8 politicians who are smugglers. So that's the context of the book, and I

9 think it goes into the state of mind of the individual as to what he

10 thinks of the people in the region.

11 MR. SCOTT: Well --

12 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I think that's an excellent question for

13 cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, if he's -- if the gentleman -- if the

15 Prosecution is going to go into it -- if the Prosecution is going to go

16 into some of it, he should go into it completely, but the reason they

17 don't is because they know that we have limited time for

18 cross-examination, and that's my dilemma. You see, if I had enough

19 adequate time for cross-examination, then I would -- which would be two or

20 three days for this gentleman, then obviously I can go into those at my

21 leisure. But I think if they're going to touch into it, have him exactly

22 describe and he should tell us, what does he mean by Montenegrin

23 politicians as being smugglers of the type that Mr. Prlic looked like or

24 his "entourage" looked like.

25 MR. MURPHY: In addition to that perhaps Mr. Scott can refresh all

Page 19542

1 our recollections as which paragraphs of the indictment deal with the

2 wearing of leather jackets and why we're taking up time with this. It's

3 just another example of trying to assassinate characters.

4 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I didn't make up the witness's evidence.

5 The witness encounters Mr. Prlic in his hotel, and he exchanges a couple

6 of -- a few words with him and he simply says this is how I found them. I

7 think that's simply reporting direct eyewitness observation. And that's

8 all it is, and if Mr. Karnavas wants to go into it more on

9 cross-examination then he's certainly welcome to do so if he thinks it

10 will assist him to go into it further.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, what I fail to understand,

12 Mr. Scott, is about the leather jacket question. I mean, in what way is

13 this important or relevant?

14 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, the Chamber -- you'll have to --

15 ultimately have to decide that based on the totality of the evidence in

16 the case and that's all I can say, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, can you please proceed

18 then.


20 Q. Did you then go back into Mostar either later that day from the

21 hotel or the following day to begin these actual negotiations?

22 A. I went into Mostar the following day as I remember, and the

23 observers brought me in.

24 Q. When you say the observers, you mean Mr. Finlayson and the others?

25 A. Yes. Yes. But also a team that was already in Mostar met us

Page 19543

1 because they had an armoured car.

2 Q. I just want to spend a few minutes on your actual travel into

3 Mostar on this occasion. Can you tell the Judges a bit about the route

4 that you followed, what you had to do to actually gain access into the

5 city of Mostar, into the centre of Mostar?

6 A. As I remember, there was only one bridge left where you can come

7 over to the eastern side, and we used that one which I think is south --

8 or was south of Mostar. And then coming up to an area as I remember could

9 have been a railway area. There were some containers, and we had to pass

10 fro and to a couple of times before we got into a road that led us into

11 the centre of East Mostar.

12 Q. And once you then began into East Mostar -- travelling into

13 East Mostar, what happened?

14 A. I was shocked by what I saw because I hadn't been there since the

15 events in April 1993, and there was no way what I would recollect or

16 recognise anything in East Mostar to what I seen before. It was only the

17 mosque or the remnants of the mosque that were made an orientation point.

18 Q. Do I understand, sir, that the conditions in Mostar and the

19 physical condition of the city was substantially worse than what it was

20 when you were there in April 1993?

21 A. Yeah. I would say that it was considerably worse than in

22 Sarajevo.

23 Q. Now, when you moved into -- when you travelled into the city, and

24 before we -- getting to the point where you make this particular

25 observations now, can you tell the Judges whether your vehicle -- your

Page 19544

1 vehicle or the UNMO vehicles that you were travelling with at the time

2 were shot at at the way -- as you entered into Mostar?

3 A. Not when we went into Mostar, but when we left Mostar.

4 Q. All right. When you arrived --

5 A. A young British --

6 Q. Sorry go ahead?

7 A. -- a young British officer, who drove them, he had -- he had some

8 ideas where snipers were located up on the hillside. So he was a bit

9 worried about the situation.

10 Q. All right. Well, did you say -- then we will come back to that in

11 a few moments.

12 Now, you said you indicated a few moments ago - excuse me - that

13 you were going into Mostar in part to arrange -- to meet with the Muslims

14 about organising a delegation; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On that date, did you meet with someone named Klaric?

17 A. I met with him in his office. He -- to the best of my knowledge,

18 he was the mayor of East -- so-called mayor of East Mostar.

19 Q. And did Mr. Klaric have a deputy by the name of Alija --

20 A. Alikadic.

21 Q. -- Alikadic. Sorry for my pronunciation. But that's the man that

22 you knew?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After meeting, first, with his deputy, did you have a meeting with

25 Mr. Klaric himself?

Page 19545

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And can you tell us a bit about that meeting, the impression that

3 Mr. Klaric made on you, and what he said to you in terms of negotiations?

4 A. He made a very good impression on me because he was very

5 controlled. He was probably dressed and washed and shaven, which nobody

6 else around him was. So he made quite a distinction from his surrounding.

7 So I was impressed by that. He was also very cool. When shells landed

8 rather near, he didn't blink. He was very, very controlled.

9 Q. I was about to ask you, in fact, was there shelling going on of

10 Mostar around this time?

11 A. Yeah. Around every fifth minute, a few rounds landed. I thought

12 it was 12-centimetre mortar shells.

13 Q. And did that continue around throughout the time that you were

14 meeting with will Klaric?

15 A. Yes, it did. He started by accusing us that the UN, European

16 Union, were letting them down and not protecting them. So he was quite

17 aggressive in the beginning, but later on he promised to -- to put

18 together a team and send it up to Medjugorje later on.

19 Q. And then when you left the meeting with Mr. Klaric, where did you

20 go? What route did you take?

21 A. We went the same way back; and then in this, what I recall as a

22 railway area, we were shot at from the hillside. And we had, on the

23 second, I think, three impacts in the car; and on the last round, we had a

24 number of impacts, one hitting the window where Grant Finlayson sat. But

25 it was small calibre rounds, 7.62, so it made no harm.

Page 19546

1 Q. And do you recall did the meetings then between the two

2 delegations, that is, the Bosnian Croat delegation and the Bosnian Muslim

3 delegation, begin sometime after that? I don't know exactly what the

4 passage of time was, if you remember.

5 A. I think it was maybe a week or something before we could get the

6 parties together.

7 Q. Can you tell us how this first meeting went, and can you confirm,

8 in fact, was it this Mr. Tomic who appeared representing the Croat side?

9 A. Yep. And as I said, his only concept was -- with the European

10 Union was to administrate East Mostar, and that was not quite the idea we

11 had about it. And so I went out and telephoned Sarinic in Zagreb and told

12 him that I thought I was using up my young life for nothing and -- in

13 Mostar.

14 Q. And you were able to get -- this was the same Mr. Sarinic that you

15 had talked to in December?

16 A. Yes. He was the security advisor to Mr. Tudjman.

17 Q. And did you have an understanding of what happened next?

18 A. Well, Tomic was suddenly called to the telephone, and when he came

19 back he was furious and said I was negotiating behind his back, and it

20 appeared that it was Mr. Susak who had called him. What he has told him,

21 I don't know, but he was furious.

22 Q. How did you learn or what information did you come to have that it

23 was Susak who had recalled Mr. Tomic?

24 A. I'm not sure who told me. Could have been the telephone people

25 with the Spanish Battalion or more probably Tomic himself, because he was

Page 19547

1 just furious. But I remember it clearly because it was a bit odd. I

2 called Sarinic, and it is Susak that calls back.

3 Q. And even after that intervention, did anything come of the

4 meeting? Was any progress made in that particular meeting?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can I ask you to look at Exhibit 7584? And this is an ECMM report

7 of the 14th of January, 1994. If I can ask you to look to the paragraph

8 titled on the first page"A, Political Situation."

9 A. Yeah. I think it is correct, the interpretation. I mean, I was

10 sent out with almost no mandate at all and no guidance and under the

11 circumstances where the parties were still fighting. So I suppose you

12 could say that Lord Owen used me as a sort of guinea pig to see what

13 happened.

14 Q. And down further in that paragraph, number 1, do you see the

15 reference, in fact, to the meetings under "the chairmanship of General

16 Pellnas"?

17 A. Yes, that's what I meant was rather correct. It was rather

18 insignificant.

19 Q. But that is a reference to the meetings that you were beginning to

20 engage in around this time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you have any meeting with this General Lasic, the same Lasic

23 that you had met with in April of 1993?

24 A. Yes. I had him in rather good memory, actually, so I invited him

25 for dinner Medjugorje, also with the idea that I would try to create a

Page 19548

1 better atmosphere for negotiating, and asked him to stop shelling Mostar

2 while we were negotiating.

3 Q. And what response did you get from him?

4 A. Well, we had some wine, so he was in good mood and promised, but

5 the next morning he called back and said that it wasn't possible.

6 Q. What was your assessment of him saying the next morning that what

7 he committed to the night before was not possible?

8 A. I think he had probably be come under pressure or he just

9 regretted what he had promised.

10 Q. And what was your response to that?

11 A. I told him that I would haunt him down to hell, if he didn't stay

12 by his word. That was probably the correct words. And it appeared later

13 on that he actually did, or it might have been a coincidence, but the

14 number of shells during the time significantly diminished.

15 Q. Can you give us a bit more of an idea of that specific idea?

16 How --

17 A. Just a few rounds hit Mostar during the time.

18 Q. During those three days?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And compared to?

21 A. Three hundred a day maybe. So I like to think that he kept his

22 word.

23 Q. Now, going forward in the course of negotiations, and I'm trying

24 to -- some of these things you've already touched upon, so I'm trying to

25 not to repeat them too much again. But when you say later that there were

Page 19549

1 other meetings where you, then, ultimately made some proposal as to what

2 the map should look like.

3 A. Yep. Since nobody came up with it, I had to draw map myself and

4 present it to them.

5 Q. And what did that map -- I mean, very broadly, just in concept,

6 how did you propose that the city would be --

7 A. The first map was Mostar in itself and as little as possible

8 outside the city, because I didn't want the EU administration to have

9 borders to the Serbs, which would have created another problem.

10 Q. And how was that -- excuse me.

11 A. And, as I remember, the airport was not included in the first

12 draft.

13 Q. And how did the two sides receive your proposal?

14 A. Tomic put it in his briefcase without any comments, just saying

15 that he would give it to his superiors who they might have been. And the

16 Muslims said, well, maybe, yes, perhaps could be acceptable.

17 Q. Did there come a time when these negotiations moved to a meeting

18 in Geneva?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. Do you recall approximately when that was?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. Must have been -- could have been February, or something like

24 that.

25 Q. And who attended, in terms of the senior, if you will,

Page 19550

1 representatives of the two parties?

2 A. I was to form a small group in which this Mr. Buntic mentioned

3 here before turned up as the negotiator for the Croats about the

4 delineation of Mostar.

5 Q. Were --

6 A. And he agreed to my proposal.

7 Q. And did Mr. -- Excuse me, were Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Tudjman also

8 involved?

9 A. Yeah. They -- they were there, yes. But this -- I did not deal

10 with them. I was on this level dealing just with the concrete question of

11 delineation of Mostar.

12 Q. And had you met this Mr. Buntic before?

13 A. No, I'd never seen him before. And then I called in the Muslim

14 delegation and said, "We have an agreement."

15 Q. And what --

16 A. And they said, "No. We don't have an agreement because we need

17 the airport."

18 Q. And I -- leading again to a stalemate. Is that --

19 A. Yeah. So it was -- it appeared that at this time the Muslims had

20 no interest of receiving a quick solution.

21 Q. And do you have any -- can you provide the Judges any insight or

22 information as to why that was the case?

23 A. Yeah. It is, of course, also an evaluation of a situation, but I

24 believe that they had military success in the enclaves further north, and

25 they were in no hurry to settle the Mostar business at that time.

Page 19551

1 Q. In February --

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. -- 1994?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. Can I ask you please to look at Exhibit 7965?

6 A. Yep.

7 JUDGE TRECHSEL: May I just come back to this last answer.

8 General, is that your appreciation of the situation? So it's a

9 bit of a speculation?


11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Is that correct?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, like all political judgements.

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Thank you.


15 Q. In 7965, this is an ECMM report for the period covering the 19th

16 of February to the 25th of February, 1994; and I think if you look down

17 into the text it, you'll see your name, and do you agree that this is a

18 report largely upon the status of the negotiations concerning the EU

19 administration?

20 A. Which page do I appear?

21 Q. 7965. I think in the first paragraph. First page, first

22 paragraph, number 1.

23 A. Oh, yes. Yes.

24 Q. "This hot issue has been dealt with by the Mostar administration

25 working group chaired by General Pellnas." Do you see that?

Page 19552

1 A. Yep. Yeah. One may perhaps smell a bit of organisational envy

2 here, but I don't know. On the whole it is correct. It was not very

3 relevant for the time being.

4 Q. In the next paragraph, the next bulleted the paragraph, it starts:

5 "CRHB representatives consider that such an administration should be

6 restricted to the town and the airport should not be included in it. None

7 commonplace of all CRHB politicians is the capitality of Mostar." And is

8 that consistent with the positions you, indeed, encountered in your

9 negotiations?

10 A. Yep.

11 Q. If you go to the top of the next page, please. I asked you

12 earlier about what Mr. Boban's status was, and the man named Pogarcic

13 apparently says or had given the information that he was on an extended

14 vacation in Croatia. Nobody knows when he will return.

15 By this time, the latter part of February 1994, did you have any

16 more information as to what Mr. Boban's status was?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can I ask you to go to Exhibit 7904?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. And can you look at that and tell us what that is, because it's

21 addressed to you.

22 A. Yep. I remember it.

23 Q. And just for the record, tell the Judges what this is.

24 A. It is a letter from Klaric, in short, saying that they will not --

25 due do what is happening in East Mostar, they have decided to cancel their

Page 19553

1 representation in the further negotiating. They will not attend.

2 Q. And just so that it's clear, you understand this to be the same

3 Mr. Klaric that you had met with a few days earlier?

4 A. I suppose so, yes.

5 Q. Can I ask you to look next at Exhibit 8019.

6 A. Yep.

7 Q. This appears to be the report of a delegation that went to Mostar

8 in March of 1994. It's dated on the top of the first page Geneva, 25

9 March 1994. On the bottom somebody named Elmar Dinter.

10 A. Yep.

11 Q. I don't know if you can shed any light on who Mr. Dinter --

12 A. Dinter was the liaison officer from the CMM at the ICFY in Geneva.

13 Q. And in the persons, this is addressed to ICFY, and your name seems

14 to be listed in the second line?

15 A. It's a whole -- it's the whole ICFY headquarters.

16 Q. And then on the second page, this appears to indicate that around

17 this time there had been a -- a French delegation -- a kind of joint

18 French-Spanish delegation to Mostar; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it gives a report of the mission. The third -- excuse me, the

21 fourth overall page of document, if you start with the first page, and the

22 fourth physical page starts. It says, "Trip report on the European Union

23 administration of Mostar." And it appears, do you agree, that the letter

24 gives them a synopsis of meetings with various people in Mostar?

25 A. I had no information at the time about this trip and about this

Page 19554

1 combined friend. I don't want comment on it, I think.

2 Q. Well, let me just ask you about the content of the document. For

3 example, on page 3, when it says, "Mr. Klaric expressed a few principles

4 on the European administration of Mostar." He says, "Mostar must be an

5 open city. Mostar cannot be a part of the territory of the CRHB. Mostar

6 cannot be the capital of CRHB. All refugees must return to their homes."

7 Is that consistent what you understood Mr. Klaric's position to be during

8 the times you talked to him?

9 A. Yes, it is. But as a matter of fact, I did not talk so much with

10 Klaric, except for the first meeting. It was his deputy that made the

11 negotiating?

12 Q. And that was Mr. --

13 A. Alikadic.

14 Q. -- Alikadic. And did he, Mr. Alikadic, express --

15 A. He had the same ideas, yes.

16 Q. And do you recall as a result of your meetings around this time

17 you continued -- you came back from Geneva. We've talked about that

18 before we went to the exhibits, and this is where this Mr. Buntic appeared

19 for the first time. Did you have another meeting back in the

20 Mostar-Medjugorje area after Geneva?

21 A. I had this meeting where only the Croatian delegation showed up

22 and the Muslims stayed out.

23 Q. And did Mr. Buntic appear at that meeting?

24 A. Yes, he did, and I was promised that it should be led by

25 Mr. Buntic, but the fact is that he did not say a word during this

Page 19555

1 meeting.

2 Q. Who -- who led the Croat delegation?

3 A. It was Mr. Tomic. And as a fact he went back on everything they

4 had accepted in -- in Geneva.

5 Q. At the end of that meeting, sir, can you just told us was there --

6 had there -- was there any resolution in sight or had there ultimately

7 been any progress on the agreement between the two parties?

8 A. No. We were back at square one. Both parties had abandoned what

9 they had agreed on. I had agreement from both parties but never at the

10 same time. And what -- it was my impression that Mr. Buntic obviously was

11 more closely connected to Zagreb, and Tomic was not, actually. He might

12 have had other interests. I saw him at the time as the spokesman for

13 Mate Boban. But that is also a guesswork from my point.

14 Q. Now, around this time then after the end of February -- or around

15 the end of February, actually, 1994, did you understand that the

16 Washington Agreement came into effect and the federation, the Muslim-Croat

17 federation, was established --

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. -- at least on paper?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And were there negotiations then in Brussels concerning, again,

22 still the topic of the EU administration of Mostar?

23 A. Yes. It was led by the Greek ambassador, because Greece had the

24 chairmanship of European Union at the time.

25 Q. And was an --

Page 19556

1 A. But Michael Steiner from Germany played a very important role.

2 Q. And was an EU administration ultimately put in place in Mostar?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. In 1994?

5 A. Yes, finally we got to the agreement about it.

6 Q. And do you know approximately -- can you tell the Judges

7 approximately how long that administration lasted?

8 A. Now I don't know how long it lasted. For quite a while, actually.

9 Long time.

10 Q. And was this Mr. Koschnick in fact appointed the administrator

11 from Bremen?

12 A. Yes, but we went in there with his should I say, Chief of Staff or

13 deputy, on a beforehand mission at what time we met Mr. Zubak.

14 Q. And let me just ask you before coming to that: Is this -- were

15 you, once again, after the Washington Agreement and after Mr. Koschnick

16 was essentially named the administrator sent back once again into Mostar

17 to try to lay further groundwork?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you accompany --

20 A. After Geneva, I didn't deal with Mostar except from the fact that

21 I followed Ambassador Metsher into Mostar.

22 Q. Well, that was my question to you. Was there a time when you went

23 with ambassador, the German ambassador, Metsher, into Mostar?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, is this period within the indictment?

Page 19557

1 If not, if not; meanwhile it might be interesting and I would like to

2 discuss this matter over a beer with the gentleman, perhaps this is not

3 the best forum to have discussions on matters that are outside the scope

4 of the indictment and the period of the indictment.

5 MR. SCOTT: It's not, Your Honour, because the period of the

6 indictment, it goes to at least April of 1994, and I thought the Chamber

7 would, frankly, want to know a little bit about not the end of the story

8 but at least the end of this chapter of the story about the administration

9 of Mostar, after all the things that the Chamber's heard about from 1991

10 forward. I have about -- several -- three or four questions left on the

11 topic at all. And it is -- but in any event, the bottom line is it's

12 within the period of the indictment, correct.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: As long as it's within the period, and if he wishes

14 to go outside the period, as long as we're able to go into the period so I

15 can discuss Mr. Prlic's involvement at Dayton and thereafter, I don't have

16 a problem with that.

17 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I've already said it several times,

18 this is within the period of the indictment we're talking -- that we're

19 now -- so I think it is more than reasonable to at least finish this part

20 of the story.

21 Q. Sir, you said you went with the German ambassador Metsher. Was

22 this part of an EU advance party?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. And how did this trip into Mostar compare to the trips into Mostar

25 that you made before?

Page 19558

1 A. Well, the agreement made -- the fighting had stopped so there was

2 no hostilities in Mostar at the time, nothing really.

3 Q. Do you know during the time that you continued to be involved

4 either in February, during the January-February period - and, sorry, in

5 the interests of time -- because of time I skipped over it - or again in

6 this later period were you still pushing the idea of a joint police --

7 some sort of a policing agreement for Mostar.

8 A. No. This idea had been taken over by the European Union. It was

9 a great discussing matter in Brussels, but I was not involved in that

10 matter. I just intervened in the negotiation by telling Michael Steiner

11 that they had to have very strong wordings in any document dealing with a

12 joint police force.

13 Q. And why did you give that counsel?

14 A. I had my background and my misgivings about the possibility to

15 create a joint police force. I thought it would be a very superficial

16 organisation and the communities would continue to work business as usual

17 below that surface. But I was not involved in the direct negotiation

18 about the police force.

19 Q. And when you accompanied Mr. -- Ambassador Metsher back into

20 Mostar at this time, was that the last time that you were in Mostar during

21 the conflict?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, if I can change to a different topic and the last topic of

24 direct examination. I asked you earlier in reference to one of the

25 reports that I showed you whether the UN military observers were regularly

Page 19559

1 interested in the possible involvement of the Croatian army in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you understand that as the chief UNMO, if you will, to be

5 something that was part of your mandate and the UNMOs' mandate, among

6 other things, to monitor?

7 A. Yes, of course.

8 Q. Can I ask you to go to Exhibit 785.

9 A. Sorry. Yeah.

10 Q. This appears to be a report from the senior military observer of

11 BH south dated the 20th of November, 1992. "Subject: Special report on

12 presence of CA troops in Herzegovina." Do you see that?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. And just so the record is clear, at the time what did you

15 understand the abbreviation "CA" to be?

16 A. Croatian army, I guess.

17 Q. And there is a reference in the second numbered paragraph to

18 information that was being received about the presence of a number of

19 numbered Croatian army units. If you see that paragraph. The 1st, 4th

20 145th, 116th, 162nd, parts of the 2nd and 3rd Brigade with a total of

21 10.000 to 12.000 troops. Do you see that?

22 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for clarification

23 purposes, in the continuation of the sentence it say that the mentioned

24 units were put up in the region of Konavle, and Konavle is in the Republic

25 of Croatia. It's an area in the Republic of Croatia. That's what I

Page 19560

1 wanted to explain. Thank you.


3 Q. And in reference to paragraph numbered 1, General Pellnas, do you

4 recall any information that was received in connection with

5 General Petkovic around this time of the involvement of the Croatian army

6 in the Stolac area?

7 A. No, I don't remember.

8 Q. In item number 3 on the third page, it says,"Assessment:

9 Brigadier Petkovic's statement prove the independent presence of Croatian

10 army fully under their own command." And then making reference to a

11 Colonel Grubac, "detailed information."

12 Do you recall what other steps that the UN military observers,

13 around this time, the end of November 1992 took to -- seeking to verify

14 this information?

15 A. No, I don't -- I don't think they were out seeking information.

16 They patrolled on what they saw. They reported. I don't think they

17 were -- but this is also an assessment. I don't know. I don't think they

18 were especially running around looking for HV units. But when they

19 come -- came across them, they probably reported.

20 I have one comment on this paper which --

21 Q. Yes, go ahead.

22 A. -- perhaps should be made. I believe this Colonel Grubac is a

23 Serb officer. So one should be a bit careful about what is reported here.

24 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise once

25 again, but just another clarification. I think it will be easier for us

Page 19561

1 to clear it up straight away. This document relates to the actions of the

2 Croatian army for the liberation of the southern parts of Croatia, and

3 that is why the document refers to the Serb army or Serb officers and the

4 Croatian army is also mentioned. Thank you.

5 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, again that's counsel testifying,

6 and they can put evidence on that if they wish. And the fact that it's a

7 Serb -- this is a Serb source of information is said right on the face of

8 paragraph number 1. "During my meetings with Serb authorities," which --

9 I mean I think everyone can read that, if it's not clear.

10 Q. Sir, when you said a few moments ago though, or earlier today,

11 this afternoon, that the presence of Croatian army units in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was something that was important and something UNMOs

13 were interested in, I mean, that concerned -- had continued back even

14 before your time. That was something the UN was always interested in;

15 correct?

16 A. Certainly.

17 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at Exhibit 205. This is Security

18 Council Resolution 752, dated the 15th of May, 1992. And if I can direct

19 your attention to paragraphs number 3 and 4 on the second page.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the gentleman was not in theatre at

21 the time, so he's being asked to comment about something at a period of

22 time when he was not working as an UNMO. If I understand him correctly,

23 it was from November 1992 to November 1993.

24 MR. SCOTT: The testimony of the witness, Your Honour, was that

25 this was something -- this was an issue that the UN military observers

Page 19562

1 was -- were continuously interested in. There is a reason they were

2 interested in it, because of UN Security Council Resolutions, and this

3 simply provides the further foundation for what the witness said, that

4 this was part of the responsibility of the UN military observers to

5 monitor.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: The question is did military observers exist at the

7 time, and was this observed by military observers at the time. In other

8 words, did this information that the Security Council put in, in the

9 resolution, did that come from military observers? If it did not, if it

10 did not, then I suggest that this is not the right gentleman to be asking

11 these sorts of questions. So I think some background information might be

12 necessary, assuming the gentleman can answer the question. He was the

13 chief military observer. Perhaps he could tell us as of what period of

14 time, when exactly did the military observers, the UN military observers

15 arrive in theatre. And if they arrived after this particular date then,

16 obviously, this gentleman is not competent to answer any questions

17 regarding this resolution, and I suggest that the Prosecution bring over

18 whoever it was that drafted this, who provided this information to the UN

19 and as a result that information got into the resolution itself.


21 Q. Sir, as a UN military observer, I take it you worked -- a UN

22 military observer worked for the UN?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the Security Council is part - I think we can all agree - it

25 is part of the United Nations?

Page 19563

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the question, again, I'm asking for

2 clarification. First, we need to establish as of when. The fact that --

3 this is a UN tribunal. Does that mean that because a UN tribunal,

4 everything that the UN does is correct? Come on. This is the whole point

5 of having this exercise.

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I -- if I can respond, Your Honour.

7 It's --

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott, you want to

9 respond. Mr. Scott.

10 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure why Mr. Karnavas is so

11 exercised about this. These are officially UN records that anyone can

12 access. I don't think there's anything, doubt -- they have been

13 fabricated in some way. This man worked -- he was the chief UN military

14 observer during this time period from November of 1992 to November of

15 1993. He's already confirmed to us several times that part of his mandate

16 was to monitor these things, and this is simply part of the UN official

17 basis for him being involved in these issues.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Here is the problem that I'm having with this. The

19 document can come in through somebody else. But now the gentleman is

20 asking to vouch, to vouch for the authenticity, the reliability, the

21 credibility, or the truthfulness of what's contained in the documents

22 themselves. That's what is, in essence, he's being called upon. And I

23 think the gentleman wasn't there. UN military observers weren't there at

24 the time.

25 So if the document -- if the Prosecution wishes to get the

Page 19564

1 document in through some other witness, they can do so. But to have this

2 gentleman somehow vouch for what's in the document itself, and it appears

3 that is what is happening.

4 I think the Prosecution made its point, and that is that one of

5 the things is at that period of time, while he was there, they were

6 looking for Croatian army involvement in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think that

7 point was made.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, you were the chief of

9 the United Nations Military Observers; and when you took up your position,

10 were you aware of that there had been resolutions passed by the UN

11 Security Council?


13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have here in

14 front us a resolution that dates back to earlier than your arrival in

15 theatre. Were you aware of this resolution dated 15th of May, 1992?


17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Very well. In this

18 resolution that you were made aware of, at paragraphs 3 and 4,

19 interference from outside is mentioned by units of the JNA and elements of

20 the Croatian army, and the UN Security Council demands that this stops

21 immediately.

22 What we see at paragraph 3 and 4, does that reflect the situation

23 you became familiar with when you took up your position?

24 THE WITNESS: This was one of the reasons, of course, why United

25 Nations observers should and must report every observation that the Serb

Page 19565

1 army or the Croatian army appeared inside Bosnia. There were also many

2 other things like that.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just stated something

4 that could be extremely relevant. You said that the United Nations

5 Military Observers had to observe what was going on, including the

6 presence of the Serb army or the Croatian army. Were you given specific

7 directions or instructions in that respect, or did you yourself and the

8 people working with you improvise in that respect, or was this part and

9 parcel of your mandate?

10 THE WITNESS: I think it was part and parcel of our mandate, but I

11 can't recall that I had specific written instructions. We could all read

12 the Security Council resolutions and see how they affected our work.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

14 Mr. Scott, then, could you please resume. This was only a

15 technical problem in order to have the question put without raising

16 objections that are a waste of time. But, unfortunately, I think we're

17 going to have to adjourn, but you can finish this topic first.

18 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I won't be able to finish. I think I

19 will need tomorrow, and I think I'm still just barely at three hours. I

20 think I would need, approximately, a half an hour or so in the morning to

21 finish. And I would remind the Chamber that it's the only witness we have

22 this week, so I can't imagine why we are going to be short on time.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. We'll discuss this among

24 each other, among the other Judges when we meet tomorrow morning. This

25 additional half hour, of course, we also have to provide the Defence with

Page 19566

1 additional time, of course.

2 It's five after 7.00. We will now adjourn and will meet tomorrow,

3 but remember the hearing is tomorrow in the morning at 9.00.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day

6 of June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.