Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20985

1 Tuesday, 10 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you

6 please call the case -- Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... Case number

8 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. So

10 today is July 10, 2007. I'd like to say hello to everyone, the

11 Prosecution, Defence, the accused, and everyone in this courtroom.

12 First, let me give to the floor to the registrar for a few IC

13 numbers.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Several parties have

15 submitted lists of documents to be tendered through Witness BD. The list

16 submitted by the OTP shall be given Exhibit number IC 625 under seal; the

17 list submitted by 1D shall be given Exhibit number IC 626 under seal; the

18 list submitted by 2D shall be given Exhibit number IC 627; finally, the

19 list submitted by 3D shall be given Exhibit number IC 628 under seal.

20 Thank you, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22 We need to go into private session for a minute.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Open session.

24 So for the next witness the Chamber has noted that the Prosecution

25 needs two hours and 30 minutes. Defence thus will be granted, for 1D, 3D,

Page 20990

1 and 4D, 35 minutes each unless they decide to split the time otherwise

2 among themselves. 2D will be granted -- 2D, 5D, and 6D will be granted an

3 hour each. Altogether, Defence will thus have four hours and 45 minutes.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. It was 3 hours and 30

5 minutes for Prosecution.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're supposed to finish by

7 4.25. So if you have objections, please limit them to the minimum to make

8 sure that we really focus on the case rather than on objections that tend

9 to waste time. Let's now introduce the witness.

10 Prosecution, you have the floor.

11 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Before the witness

12 enters the courtroom, just a few very preliminary matters. I'd first like

13 to introduce the Trial Chamber to Ms. Fridolijn Kuipers. She's present

14 for the first time in the courtroom with us and she's been assisting with

15 this witness. Secondly, in order to hopefully speed things along later

16 this is the matter of one exhibit that I'd like to raise with the Trial

17 Chamber now, hopefully it will make things go faster later and with the

18 assistance of the greffier, the registrar, perhaps I could forward this

19 document to the Trial Chamber so that it could look at the document while

20 I speak about it.

21 Mr. President, this is the original note, the original piece of

22 paper that the witness will testify about during the course of his direct

23 10 July 2007 examination. It's marked as Exhibit P 2744. On the copies

24 that are actually in e-court and which have been distributed, we have sort

25 of a technical problem because based on the age of this document now five

Page 20991

1 typewritten names which originally appeared on it and which can be noted,

2 but they have faded, and so those names don't appear on the copy.

3 I think that on real close examination with bifocals or a

4 magnifying glass the names can be seen, but in any event, five names which

5 appear on the document that we all have in front of us, don't appear at

6 all because it's faded too much to copy any more. And I've raised this

7 with a number of Defence counsel before the proceeding just to alert them

8 to it. Several have indicated they don't see it as a problem. One has

9 indicated that it could be a problem, and I don't know really at this

10 point how we propose going forward. I can add: The names that are

11 involved here are not the names of any of the accused. It's not something

12 that's so direct as that. It is the name of alleged perpetrators of

13 forced evictions.

14 And so I am in the Trial Chamber's hands, I think, on how to

15 proceed with this. We can wait until we get to that point in the direct

16 and see how it develops, but in any event I wanted to alert the

17 Trial Chamber to that now that the exhibit we're all looking at won't have

18 the five names that appear on the original document because they've faded.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Before giving the floor

20 to Mr. Kovacic, the Chamber notes the following: We have a document.

21 It's a white piece of paper with a couple of -- with eight red stripes on

22 it, happened written in English are the following words: List of HVO

23 soldiers who expelled Muslims on June 13, 1993, around 5.30 p.m.

24 On the left-hand side of this document, there's the word "Dum",

25 and typewritten right under this word is something that is very difficult

Page 20992

1 to see but upon scrutiny you can decipher the names Martinovic Vinko;

2 Ernest Takac; Peco Nino-Ziga; Bobo Peric; and Damir Peric. And in

3 handwriting as number 6 Viktor Markovic is added in the same ink as the

4 ink used to write "List of HVO soldiers." That's the document. There are

5 five names that have been typed on this paper. Martinovic Vinko,

6 Ernest Takac, Peco Nino-Ziga, Bobo Peric and Damir Peric.

7 This is what the Chamber can say about this original document.

8 Mr. Kovacic.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in a preliminary

10 conversation with my learned friend, I said that I would object as a

11 matter of principle without going into the issue of the relevance or

12 irrelevance of this document, especially for General Praljak. I have to

13 say that this is a purely forensic issue. As Your Honour yourself has

14 just said, part of the text has completely faded and I was unable to read

15 it. Your Honour seems to have sharper eyesight than me. Another part is

16 less faded. I think as forensic science stands today a laboratory would

17 not have a problem with this. We have two different parts of the

18 document. One has faded and the other not, so we don't not know whether

19 the entire document was composed at the same time or whether something was

20 added on later.

21 Secondly, the OTP has broken some sacrosanct rules of legal

22 procedure which exist in all countries whether rich or poor, developed or

23 undeveloped, and this is the second incident where the OTP has allowed a

24 piece of evidence to deteriorate. If Your Honours recall, we recently had

25 a videotape which was unusable after a lapse of time because it had not

Page 20993

1 been properly kept. I don't know whether the OTP will come up with

2 another exhibit sooner or later which will be important for my case which

3 will need to be handled forensically because it was not properly stored,

4 and for that reason I object as a matter of principle to the use of such

5 exhibits without previous forensic analysis, and I wish to point out that

6 the OTP has allowed a piece of evidence to deteriorate. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm discovering this right now.

8 Where does it come from? Who handed this document in? Which archive does

9 it come from? Could you give us the brief history of this document?

10 MR. STRINGER: Indeed, Your Honour. The witness will testify that

11 the document was handed to him while he was on patrol in Mostar during May

12 of 1993, which is the period of time that he'll be testifying about. It

13 was -- there's a notation on it which actually is the very bottom right

14 hand where it says attachment PB. PB stands for Plony Bos. That's the

15 name of the OTP investigator who interviewed the witness and took this and

16 other things that he provided during his interview on, I believe, the 13th

17 of August, 2001, with the witness's initials and Ms. Bos's initials next.

18 So since that time the document's been in the custody of the OTP evidence

19 unit in the vault. And I had to sign it out in order to get it into the

20 courtroom to provide this clarification.

21 May I suggest, Mr. President, that perhaps we proceed with the

22 witness. The Trial Chamber can hear his story about it and assess the

23 authenticity and the probative value of the document at that time.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you right, in a

25 street in Mostar that some person handed this document to the witness, is

Page 20994

1 that it?

2 MR. STRINGER: That's correct, Your Honour. The typewritten part

3 was given to the witness. The handwriting on the right which you read,

4 Mr. President, list of HVO soldiers who expelled people, that is the

5 handwriting of the witness, which he made at the time.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So if I understood right,

7 in the street, he was handed this document where five names were

8 typewritten, and he added by hand "List," and added Viktor Markovic as

9 number 6. That's what happened. At least that's what we understood. I

10 guess the best is to go into the in-chief and we'll find out with the

11 witness. Now, let's bring the witness into the courtroom. I can give you

12 the document back but maybe you also need to circulate it with the counsel

13 of Defence. They can look at it and Mr. Praljak can also look at it -

14 does he need glasses to look at it? - and so we'll circulate the document

15 first and then we'll get it back.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecutor gave us

17 an opportunity to look at the document before the session.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't know that.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, while the witness is being brought

20 in, could I remind the technical people. Excuse me. The witness was an

21 ECMM monitor, European Commission Monitoring Mission. He's going to be

22 talking and testifying about numerous reports that he made as an ECMM

23 monitor; reports were provided to us confidentially. We will not need to

24 go into private session when he testifies about those. However, the

25 arrangement, as with earlier ECMM witnesses, is that the reports

Page 20995

1 themselves will not be shown publicly on the monitors outside.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Could

6 you please tell me your name, surname and date of birth, please.

7 THE WITNESS: My name is Antoon Willem Maria Van der Grinten, born

8 11 November, 1949.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your job now?

10 THE WITNESS: I'm a professional officer in the Royal Netherlands

11 Army.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And could you tell us what your

13 rank is in the Dutch army?

14 THE WITNESS: My rank is lieutenant-colonel. I'm infantry

15 officer.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, have you already

17 testified in court regarding facts that happened in the former Yugoslavia

18 or is this the first time that you're testifying in court?

19 THE WITNESS: It's the second time, sir, Your Honour. I did it in

20 January 2002 as well.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In January 2002. But in which

22 case, please?

23 THE WITNESS: In the case against Tuta and Stela.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were you Prosecution witness or

25 Defence witness?

Page 20996

1 THE WITNESS: Prosecution witness, sir. 10 July 2007.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please now

3 take the oath.

4 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. Yes. I solemnly declare that I will

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel. You may sit

7 down.

8 JUDGE TRECHSEL: There is a correction in the transcript on page

9 11, line 6. The witness has given, all in all, three first names, Antoon,

10 Willem, and Maria and the second and third have not been transcribed.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have three surnames,

12 Antoon Willem Maria; is that it?

13 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel. Let me

15 explain how the hearing is going to be organised. You have already

16 testified so this will come as no surprise to you. First, you will answer

17 questions put to you by Mr. Stringer. I'm sure you already met him during

18 the proofing session. Prosecution will ask questions and will present

19 documents at the same time, and you will be asked to comment on these

20 documents. After this phase, Defence counsel on your left or maybe even

21 the accused will cross-examine you and will thus ask you questions.

22 Four Judges on the Bench can interrupt at any time to put

23 questions to you, but as far as possible we would rather not intervene and

24 only take the floor after questions have been put by either Prosecution

25 and Defence, but sometimes we step in because of the document, and we

Page 20997

1 would rather just ask questions immediately about a document that's

2 presented on the screen.

3 Please try and focus on your answers and be very concise. If you

4 do not understand a question, just ask for a reformulation of the

5 question. There will be breaks every hour and a half. These are

6 20-minute breaks. And this hearing will end tomorrow at 4.25, but first

7 we'll -- today we'll stop at 7.00. Of course it's not going to go on

8 forever until tomorrow. So tonight we will stop at 7.00 p.m., resume

9 tomorrow at 2.15, and we'll stop at 4.25.

10 Now, without further ado I will now give the floor to the

11 Prosecution.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Examination by Mr. Stringer:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Van der Grinten. Welcome. Before I start

15 asking you about the relevant time period, let me just ask you some

16 questions about your background. Have you been a member of the

17 Netherlands royal army since 1971?

18 A. That's correct, sir.

19 Q. And did you attend the Royal Military Academy for the Netherlands

20 from 1971 to 1975?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. In 1979 and 1980 did you serve on behalf of the Dutch -- royal

23 Dutch army in the United Nations mission in Lebanon?

24 A. Yes, in UNIFIL.

25 Q. And in 1986 and 1987 did you again serve as a member of the royal

Page 20998

1 Dutch army, the United Nations mission in Lebanon, subsequently Syria and

2 Israel?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. In 1993, were you then assigned, again, as a representative of the

5 Royal Dutch Army, to join the ECMM, the European Community Monitoring

6 Mission, then in Hungary?

7 A. Yeah. That was my first station; correct.

8 Q. How long did you stay with ECMM in Hungary?

9 A. I stayed there almost four weeks.

10 Q. And then after just four weeks were you asked or transferred then

11 to Mostar?

12 A. I was transferred then in weekends to Mostar, yeah.

13 Q. Okay. And we'll come back to that period of time obviously.

14 Couple things then, your experience after having gone into the Mostar

15 region. From August 2000 to October of 2004 did you work as a

16 lieutenant-colonel in the Royal Netherlands Army as chief of the

17 operations branch at the NATO subregional headquarters in Izmir, Turkey?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And from October 2004 to the present, have you been based in

20 Madrid with NATO as chief of land operations for the NATO subregion --

21 southern subregion, I should say?

22 A. Yes, from November 2004 actually up to now. That is my position

23 now.

24 Q. And in that capacity are you responsible for all NATO operations

25 in its southern region?

Page 20999

1 A. Well, monitoring.

2 Q. Monitoring.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, going back then to the relevant period for

5 our purposes, May of 1993, you say you arrived in Mostar as an ECMM

6 monitor. Do you recall roughly the date or the period in the month of May

7 when you actually arrived in Mostar?

8 A. I think it was the 23rd of May.

9 Q. Did you travel to Mostar I guess from Hungary via Zagreb and then

10 through Split into Mostar?

11 A. Yeah. We travelled first to the headquarters in Zagreb to be

12 briefed about the situation and to get more instructions.

13 Q. Okay. And just to clarify, I have said -- I have mentioned

14 Mostar, but in fact when you were then based in the Mostar region, where

15 were your offices located, the ECMM office that you worked in?

16 A. They just moved, actually, the coordination centre out of -- out

17 of Mostar. In the previous time they had a centre in downtown Mostar, but

18 they moved it to Siroki Brijeg.

19 Q. Do you -- recognising that you weren't there at the time, did you

20 know or did you learn why the office was moved out of Mostar to

21 Siroki Brijeg?

22 A. Yeah. That had all to do with the security; a secure environment

23 was not longer there at the place where they had it before.

24 Q. So the office was moved for security reasons?

25 A. Correct.

Page 21000

1 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard the testimony of other

2 individuals who worked with the ECMM in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I'm not

3 going to ask you very much about the overall mandate of ECMM in the

4 country, but I will ask you a couple questions about the structure as it

5 pertained to you -- as it pertained to you in Mostar. You mentioned

6 already a coordination centre. Could you tell us what the coordination

7 centre was?

8 A. In the ECMM organisation, the coordination centre was actually the

9 lowest level where the work was done for Zagreb in the field.

10 Q. Okay. How many coordination centres were located in the region of

11 Western Herzegovina?

12 A. It's hard to recall, but at least --

13 Q. Let me ask it this way: You say you were with the coordination

14 centre located in Mostar but actually based in Siroki Brijeg.

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Was -- we'll see it in the reports. Was your coordination centre

17 called M2 or Mike 2 in terms of the organisation?

18 A. No. The coordination centre was called Mostar, but it consisted

19 out of three teams at that time. Three teams to cover not only Mostar but

20 a region bigger than Mostar, but the teams had their base in Siroki Brijeg

21 and came -- at least two teams came daily back, and the third team every

22 week at least once.

23 Q. Was there a team called M1 that covered Jablanica?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And then your team, M2, covering Mostar?

Page 21001

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Was there another team called M3 that was covering the Medjugorje

3 area south of Mostar?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And then I don't think we'll see any reports, but was there

6 subsequently an M4 that was added for Tomislavgrad?

7 A. Yeah, but that happened in August. So at the end of my period, my

8 time frame.

9 Q. And just to set the time frame, then, were you then working as a

10 part of the M2 team for Mostar from this period, late May until the late

11 part of August when you left?

12 A. That's correct, sir.

13 Q. So roughly three months.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Now, above the coordination centre level what was the next highest

16 office or -- or centre that you reported to from Mostar?

17 A. We reported to the regional centre in Zenica what was meant by a

18 diplomat. He had more -- more coordination centres, of course, and all

19 the reports he received on daily base were then summarised and sent to

20 Zagreb, to the main headquarters of the ECMM.

21 Q. All right. So Zagreb, then, was the main ECMM headquarters for

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Okay. Now, recognising that you were working on the local level

25 in Mostar, can you give the Trial Chamber just a brief idea of the tasks

Page 21002

1 and the mandate that you had as ECMM monitors in Mostar during that

2 three-month period?

3 A. The main task was to provide around-the-clock, seven days a week a

4 picture what was going on in the region in, let's say our area of

5 responsibility, and for the M2 team that was downtown and the direct

6 vicinities, the outskirts of Mostar.

7 Q. And just in general, how did you work? How did you go about

8 trying to find the information, make the picture to report about what was

9 happening?

10 A. Yeah. We -- we established, let's say, a kind of network by NGOs,

11 IOs, officials, but also people in the street to get as much as possible

12 information and verify that kind of information by various sources. That

13 was the most important thing to -- to give the right picture.

14 Q. Now, based on the information that you obtained from various

15 sources, did you make reports?

16 A. Yeah. We -- we sent our reports -- we made a report every day

17 when we returned to our home base, and that was before darkness, discussed

18 the outcome of the work we did over the last period and then summarised

19 it, gave an assessment according to a fixed format, and that was then

20 before sent to Zenica approved by the head of the coordination centre.

21 That was the procedure.

22 Q. And who was the head, then, of the coordination centre that was

23 for Mostar?

24 A. When I arrived, the head of the centre was a retired full German

25 colonel. His name was Klaus Nissen, and he was replaced in July by a

Page 21003

1 just-retired three-star British general, Sir Martin Garrod.

2 Q. You've been saying "we," and I should ask, your team, the M2 team,

3 was it a two-man team, and if you could just tell the Trial Chamber who

4 your partner was?

5 A. Yeah. Sorry. I forgot to explain you the team. It was a fixed

6 team of two members and driver, but the driver came from the driver pool,

7 actually. The other member was a major of the Spanish Army,

8 Jesus Amatriain, and I worked with him during the -- during the whole time

9 frame.

10 Q. And Mr. Amatriain, what country was he from?

11 A. Spain.

12 Q. And you and your colleague Mr. Amatriain then collaborated in

13 preparing these reports that were then sent to Zenica?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. Let me then direct you to the binder, Colonel, that's in

16 front of you and ask you to look at Exhibit P 2496. And recognising that

17 the date of this may be just before your arrival, I want to ask you first,

18 do you recognise this? Can you tell us what this document is?

19 A. Well, this document was a daily summary by the predecessors. In

20 this case it is signed by Milverton, who was a British officer. We

21 relieved him, actually, in the team.

22 Q. Okay. Because the -- the memo makes reference to a couple things

23 I'm going to be asking you about, and the first is the joint commission

24 meeting right there on the first page, and I wanted to ask you whether you

25 then became familiar and involved in the process of joint commissions

Page 21004

1 that's referred to here.

2 A. Yeah. That joint commission was established after the Vance-Owen

3 agreement, and that already was in place. So we replaced actually

4 Milverton and his colleague at that moment. By the way, Jesus Amatriain

5 was there already. He arrived a little bit early or so. I jumped in,

6 actually, as the new member.

7 Q. Sure.

8 A. And we were briefed about this in the week when we took over the

9 job.

10 Q. What was the purpose of the joint commission?

11 A. The purpose of the joint commission was actually to get the --

12 the -- all the parties around the table and to discuss -- to implement,

13 actually, that what was feasible in the Mostar area on the ground

14 according to the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

15 Q. Right. And you said the parties. Just for the record, we're

16 talking about the HVO on the one side and the armija on the other side?

17 A. In this case, that's correct.

18 Q. Okay. You've mentioned Vance-Owen, then, and there's reference to

19 that here and in other reports as well. Your approach to Vance-Owen, was

20 it on the local level or was it coming from a higher level?

21 A. It was translated, let's say, from the local level to the work we

22 were doing in the field.

23 Q. With the ultimate goal of the joint commission being?

24 A. Two: To establish a discussion and to finally apply to what was

25 mentioned in the Vance-Owen Plan.

Page 21005

1 Q. In general was the joint commission something that was intended to

2 accomplish certain goals, get the parties to work together on certain

3 things?

4 A. Yeah, definitely to stop the -- the hostilities.

5 Q. Okay. The next exhibit for you would be the next one in the

6 binder, which is marked 2550. Can you turn to that?

7 Colonel, do you recognise that document?

8 A. Yeah, I do, because my handwriting is on the bottom.

9 Q. Okay. The typewritten part, first of all, do you recall who

10 you -- well, did you receive this?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Okay. And from whom? It says "Tertio" at the bottom.

13 A. Yes, Tertio stands for M3, so it's going from our team, M3,

14 located or working in the Medjugorje area.

15 Q. And then over the right-hand side there is the handwritten "28

16 May, 1993." Do you see that?

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. Do you recognise that handwriting?

19 A. Yeah, it's mine.

20 Q. Is that the date that you received this?

21 A. That is the date that we received it, yeah.

22 Q. Now, what this says is that -- I won't read the whole thing, that

23 that there is a plan for today for our tomorrow morning or for tomorrow

24 morning "to arrest all the male persons (Mike of course) from the

25 settlements which are on the first front line." And it continues making

Page 21006

1 references to various locations, streets, and the Heliodrom. Can you tell

2 the Trial Chamber what that -- your interpretation of that message,

3 what's -- what are you being told there in this note?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may for a second. Can we lay a

5 foundation? Who exactly did this note come from? We have something down

6 there on the bottom but on what basis? Was this on the basis of

7 investigation, tips, some unknown confidential informant, because now he's

8 being asked to translate what somebody else has written.


10 Q. Colonel, you heard the objection. Would you like to address that?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me. May have a ruling, Your Honour?

12 MR. STRINGER: Well, I'm covering to clarify it.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, if I don't say

14 anything, it means that I agree. So let him answer.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I recognise it. It is part of

16 the report of the M3 team, because we discussed our reports at the end of

17 the day, and it makes clear because -- because Mike, of course, stands

18 for -- Mike is -- is -- is the NATO abbreviation of -- of the M, and that

19 stands here for Muslim. So that clarifies where it is all about, I

20 suppose.


22 Q. I mean, we'll talk more about sources later, but did you in M2,

23 did you communicate with your colleagues in M3 and elsewhere and share

24 information?

25 A. Yeah. We did. This is an example of that at the end of the day.

Page 21007

1 Q. Now, the handwriting farther down relates to a hundred confirmed

2 cases, occupation of houses, apartments by HVO. Whose handwriting is

3 that?

4 A. That's mine.

5 Q. Okay. Do you recall what it is that caused you to make that

6 notation there or how you -- why you indicated a confirmation?

7 A. Well, it fits probably with messages and information we got from

8 the Mostar area, because our reports normally were based on confirmed

9 information and not about rumours. I mean, when you -- when you read in

10 one of our reports rumour, then it was a rumour and not confirmed. All

11 the other information were real statements or at least confirmed by one or

12 more sources.

13 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is P 2564. 2564.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

15 Colonel, the document that we see signed Tertio, you said it was

16 M3. When I see the text, I get the feeling that M3 is speaking about a

17 possible plan that would be executed on the same day or the next day

18 aiming to arrest certain people who were Muslims. So I assume that M3

19 would have had this information from a source, either the HVO or the ABiH,

20 but the source is not indicated here.

21 THE WITNESS: No. That's correct, Your Honour. And -- and I'm

22 very sorry that I don't answer that question, because it came from the

23 team, and after 14 years probably it's hard to give an answer upon this,

24 where it originally came from.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But when you have

Page 21008

1 this type of information, do you not look into or do you not submit it

2 to -- or submit to Zenica, to your superiors, that there may be a

3 large-scale operation that is going to be launched in order to alert

4 everyone? Was this information passed on to your superiors in the chain

5 of command or in the hierarchy.

6 THE WITNESS: Well, definitely, because this only shows that we

7 were exchange -- that we exchanged information on our level, and this

8 definitely is in the summary of the head of the coordination centre sends

9 to Zenica, yeah.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

11 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I -- I hope to link this

12 up or at least connect it with some of the exhibits to follow.

13 Q. And on that subject about then reporting such information up your

14 reporting chain, I think it's useful now to look at this next exhibit,

15 P 2564. 2564. I think you're going to have to skip one to get to it.

16 A. Mm-hmm.

17 Q. Now, do you recognise this document?

18 A. Well, I don't recognise this document because it don't come

19 from -- from our CC. This comes from Zagreb. That means from -- from the

20 Danish delegation. So it is on a higher level. Two levels just in

21 between.

22 Q. So this is just a document from the headquarters of ECMM based in

23 Zagreb. Are you able to recognise it as that? I'm not asking you if you

24 saw it before but whether it appears to be an ECMM document from Zagreb

25 headquarters.

Page 21009

1 A. Yeah. It's definitely from the Danish delegation within the

2 headquarters in Zagreb, yeah.

3 Q. Okay. And at the time was it -- Denmark had the EC Presidency and

4 so --

5 A. That's correct, sir, yeah. So they finalised the summary.

6 Q. Okay. Just to continue with that, the information contained in

7 these reports, then, coming from the ECMM headquarters in Zagreb, do you

8 know, and if you don't, that's fine, do you know where these reports then

9 were destined? Who were the ultimate recipients of the information

10 contained in these reports?

11 A. Well, you can see that. At the end of the document you see the

12 distribution list, and that shows clearly that this went, of course, back

13 to the heads of the regional centres, to the heads of the coordination

14 centres, and to a lot of -- a number of liaison officers in the various

15 regions.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And internal -- internal means within the headquarters in Zagreb.

18 Q. Could I then direct you, if you look at the top right-hand corner,

19 to page 4 of 18. Do you see that?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And this is a section that relates to Mostar update brief of 25

22 May. Do you see that?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. All right. So this is actually dated right at the time of your

25 arrival in Mostar; is that correct?

Page 21010

1 A. That's correct, sir.

2 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to the question that the President had,

3 10 July 2007, I want to direct your attention to then page 7 of 18 of this

4 document. If you could turn three more pages. The very top paragraph

5 states: "Monitors stated that Muslims were still being expelled from

6 their homes in HVO-held districts of Mostar, and on the 20th May were

7 sleeping in the streets around the armoured cars of SpaBat deployed in the

8 city."

9 Now, recognising that you weren't in Mostar on the 20th of May, is

10 this then reflecting the information regarding the evictions that is in

11 part indicated in the other note that you were looking at?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. So the information's flowing up the chain, if you will?

14 A. Yes. To answer the President's question, this is a good example

15 where you see that the Mostar update is the information gathered by our CC

16 and Zenica, and it comes from our teams.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Used by finally the Presidency, yeah.

19 Q. And so based on what you knew again, recognising that you're not

20 in Zagreb, but if you know, was it then in Zagreb where analysis occurred

21 and reports from various locations were put together to construct an

22 overall picture?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Getting back to this issue of evictions in the Mostar area, let me

25 direct you now to the next exhibit, which is P 2600. And I want to use

Page 21011

1 this exhibit to introduce again the subject of evictions. Perhaps I could

2 just ask you to look at these photographs and tell the Trial Chamber

3 what -- what these are about.

4 A. These pictures are quite familiar to me because I took them myself

5 after we were tipped that some people were forced to move in the night

6 before, and we went to that location and found this.

7 Q. Without mentioning any names, unless you wish to, could you give

8 an indication of who the source of information was on this tip?

9 A. At that time I think this was -- this was reported by our

10 interpreter.

11 Q. Okay. Did your interpreter -- was your interpreter a Muslim

12 person living in West Mostar?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Do you recall approximately the time frame in which these

15 photographs were taken?

16 A. Well, you can see the date is on the picture. It is the 1st of

17 June --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. -- 1993.

20 Q. Okay. So again just to continue, you got a tip from your

21 interpreter about this sort of thing happening, and then tell us what

22 happened after that.

23 A. We went to the spot. The door -- we talked to the neighbours to

24 verify what happened over there, and they opened the apartment and showed

25 us what happened. And -- well, the most important thing is that the first

Page 21012

1 message was actually by -- by a second source confirmed, and taking the

2 photographs was probably for us a kind of proof.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall roughly what part of Mostar this apartment 10

4 July 2007 was located?

5 A. Not that far, I remember, from the place where -- where our

6 interpreter was living with her family.

7 Q. And this is on the west side?

8 A. That's correct, on the west side.

9 Q. Now, forgive me if you've already said this. The first -- the

10 second -- the second photograph has -- could you describe that and

11 particularly what part of the apartment that -- those markings were

12 located?

13 A. Yeah. That are bullet marks in the ceiling, because they told us

14 that they were forced by HVO soldiers and were intimidated by -- by fire.

15 So this finally was the result.

16 Q. During this time or at any time did you also hear about the

17 looting of property, that is, taking property out of Muslims apartments

18 such as this?

19 A. Yeah. At that time we got various messages and information about

20 that as well.

21 Q. Okay. Now, the next exhibit is marked P 2622. And, Colonel, this

22 is actually the first report that we've -- we've got now that is -- is

23 originating from you and your colleague, Jesus Amatriain. And before we

24 go into the specific parts of it, just so the Trial Chamber knows, I'd

25 like you to briefly tell us the format of these, how these are organised,

Page 21013

1 looking at the section with the numbers beginning "General situation."

2 What was the way in which these reports were generally organised by you?

3 A. Well, sir, you see the paragraphs, and the paragraphs were fixed

4 starting with "General Situation", then "Cease-fire Violations". That was

5 a directed subject from the peace agreement, of course. The same for

6 paragraph 5, "Tripartite Meeting" was coming from the agreement as well.

7 In fact, we were dealing with only two in Mostar at that moment.

8 "Humanitarian aid", we always noted very carefully who we met and the

9 results of -- of that meeting. Other subjects and administration was more

10 about our own business, talking about logistics for instance.

11 Q. Okay. Now, in this particular report, first of all -- well, do

12 you recognise this as one that you and your colleague Mr. Amatriain

13 prepared and sent to the Zenica regional centre?

14 A. Yeah. I recognise -- when you go to the top of the message you

15 see "NL Burum", and then day time group and a series of numbers, and

16 especially the date and the time. That means that it was sent -- this

17 message, this is a copy from our transmitter, and this is a message sent

18 by our satellite system. Burum stands for the satellite system. It means

19 that this was sent to Zenica, info the four you see under ECMM restricted.

20 And that happened every night after approval of the chief of the

21 coordination centre.

22 Q. Okay. So you'd prepare your report jointly and then your chief

23 would approve it, and then --

24 A. And then it was sent.

25 Q. Okay. If you would turn the page, then, to page 2, because I'm

Page 21014

1 not going to -- I just want to -- use this one to introduce another

2 subject that we'll be talking about. Directing your attention to item

3 number 8 which relates to the situation on the east side, "it's becoming

4 critical." And then moving down there's a reference to pressure, "it

5 would be a good idea to put more political pressure on the HVO in order to

6 re-establish the supply of water and humanitarian aid to the BiH side."

7 First of all, by this point, which is the 3rd of June, had you

8 actually gone into East Mostar yourself to see the situation there?

9 A. Yeah. That needs maybe more clarification. Sorry. The way of --

10 the way of working was the following: We -- we made a list of points or

11 people we wanted to see the day before, and we had to start, of course, on

12 the west side because Siroki Brijeg is -- is located west of Mostar

13 north-west more or less. And what we always did then only when it was not

14 possible but let's say probably 90 per cent of the time that we went

15 downtown we always visited the west bank, went to the east bank and back.

16 So we always were visiting both sides.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, at this point in early June, was it in fact the

18 situation on the east side becoming -- that it was becoming critical, as

19 you indicate?

20 A. That's correct, sir.

21 Q. And then you indicate the HVO had some control over the water

22 supply? Was that the case as you found it?

23 A. At that time, that's correct.

24 Q. And the same was true with respect to humanitarian aid?

25 A. That's correct as well, because that was a matter of a -- that --

Page 21015

1 the possibility to get humanitarian aid in was restricted by check-points.

2 Q. Okay. And one other point. You indicated in item 7 here meetings

3 with persons who are associated with the 4th Corps of the ABiH. And I

4 think I just want to ask you this now: To what extent did you accept

5 things they told you about the situation versus going out on your own and

6 trying to confirm the things that they were telling you?

7 A. Well, in principle that was not different on the west or on the

8 east bank. We noted what was stated by the people there or the commanders

9 or the people in charge and then tried to verify that later on.

10 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is P 2635. Are you able to recognise this

11 as one of the M2 reports prepared by you and your colleague in Mostar?

12 A. I do, sir.

13 Q. Okay. And the bottom of page 2 here there's a reference to Amigo

14 Jesus and the Flying Dutchman. Would you be the Flying Dutchman as

15 referred to in this report?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. Looking at this there's a reference to your armoured vehicle

18 having been shot at from the west bank. I wanted to ask you to briefly

19 tell the Trial Chamber about that incident, and also comment on your

20 statement in the report here that you guess it came from the direction of

21 a sniper in the building belonging to the HVO, or in one building

22 belonging to the HVO.

23 A. Yeah. At that time, we are talking here about the 4th of July, we

24 were still able to cross the Neretva --

25 Q. I'm sorry.

Page 21016

1 A. Sorry.

2 Q. I don't mean to interrupt. You said 4th of July and I note the

3 report is 4th of June.

4 A. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I misread it. No, the 4th of June.

5 Sorry. At that time we were still able to use the Tito Bridge in the

6 centre to go from west to east just through the confrontation line with

7 our armoured car, and that is what we did as long as it was possible.

8 This reports -- this report clarifies that we were shoot when we were

9 halfway the Tito Bridge from the east side, and by our knowledge at that

10 moment and by the impact, I mean the knowledge, the military knowledge of

11 this, because there was never a real investigation about this, but by our

12 military knowledge the shot was direct fire by line of sight from higher

13 ground. And from the position of the car and the angle of the impact, the

14 only possibility here was what we called from the blue bank building, and

15 that was a dominant building in the front line.

16 Q. You actually said that we were shot -- or "when we were halfway

17 the Tito Bridge from the east side", and I want to clarify that. Which

18 side did the -- the round, the shot, originate from to the best of your

19 knowledge? Did it come from the west side or the east side?

20 A. We went from the west to the east side. So the bullet -- we

21 headed to the headquarters in the east side. So the bullet came from the

22 west side.

23 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned this blue bank building and we'll

24 come back to it. Is that what you believed or as you indicate here you

25 guessed that the building or that the bullet came from?

Page 21017

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. You were aware that there were armija positions on the west bank

3 of the Neretva, so it was not possible to completely rule out which side

4 actually fired the bullet?

5 A. Not by our knowledge at that time.

6 Q. Okay. Exhibit P 2634. Actually, it's the previous exhibit.

7 You'll have to go back one. Just to move things along, if I could ask is

8 that a photograph of your ECMM vehicle, and does it indicate the hit from

9 the bullet in the rear left-hand corner of the vehicle?

10 A. That's correct, sir.

11 Q. And as indicated on the photograph, was this photo taken on the

12 4th of June, 1993?

13 A. We took this photograph on the 4th of June.

14 Q. The next exhibit is - excuse me - 2661. Colonel, this is --

15 MR. STRINGER: And I apologise, Mr. President. The quality of the

16 image is not as nice as we would like, but it's the best we've got.

17 Q. I'm start first of all with the bottom on the handwriting,

18 Colonel, where it says Doc named and then the date of 7th of June, 1993,

19 and then the letters -- or the numbers 01. Is that your handwriting?

20 A. That's my handwriting.

21 Q. Can you tell us what this document is and whether you saw it

22 before?

23 A. Yeah. This is a document I handed over in January 2002. It is a

24 document what we received from the commander of the BH army on the east

25 side, at that time Colonel Pasalic.

Page 21018

1 Q. And the date that you received this letter from him?

2 A. That is the 7th of June.

3 Q. 1993?

4 A. Yeah, sorry, 1993.

5 Q. That's -- so you wrote the date on there.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And the 01 stands for the first page.

9 Q. Okay. And you say you were present in East Mostar and he

10 personally gave this to you?

11 A. Yeah. That -- that happened various times, but --

12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, recognising that this is a protest letter

13 from Colonel Pasalic, I want to just direct your attention to the middle

14 of the page. He makes reference to the hospital not receiving any help,

15 citizens not allowed to have a supply of water, and there is permanent

16 expelling of citizens, exclusively Muslims, and all this is done in front

17 of you.

18 So this protest letter, those complaints about the hospital, the

19 water and the expulsions, is this something that you found was happening

20 based on your -- your presence and your contacts with various sources?

21 A. That is what we experienced at that time, yeah.

22 Q. Now, I want to ask you if you recall at roughly the same period of

23 time your vehicle being the target of a -- of a hand grenade.

24 A. Yeah. That is another time that we were shot at, and to our -- to

25 our belief also from the blue bank building, but -- but in western

Page 21019

1 direction. So not from the blue bank building to the east as the first

2 time what the picture showed of the car, but in this case we were on the

3 west side at a location we used, a school on the west side, just at the

4 border of the confrontation line. The school what we used in previous

5 days for that joint committee.

6 We were very familiar with the location there, and we went there

7 to -- to make a sanitary stop, and suddenly when we were out of the car

8 and into the building a grenade was fired and impacted just three metres

9 from our car with our Italian driver inside.

10 Q. Was anyone injured in that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. This is the same car the photo we've just looked at that had all

13 the markings of the ECMM and the --

14 A. That's correct. That's correct.

15 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn now to Exhibit P 9615, which I

16 believe is in your binder. If I can hand it -- it's a photograph which I

17 can hand you. It may speed things along. The registrar can hand you a

18 copy of that and may be something we can see on our television monitors as

19 well.

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. You've been talking about this blue bank building, and I want to

22 ask if you recognise this photograph.

23 A. Yeah. This is what we called the blue bank building.

24 Q. In what part of Mostar was this located?

25 A. It was on the west -- on west side of Mostar.

Page 21020

1 Q. Okay. Now, it doesn't look very blue to me, so maybe you can

2 explain why it's called --

3 A. Yeah. Sorry. You still see in the lower -- the lower floors you

4 still see some -- some glass, blue glass pane impact, and that is why we

5 called it the blue bank building.

6 Q. Okay. And is this the location you referred to when you believed

7 as being the -- the location where the sniper shot came from?

8 A. Well, we know that this building was used by snipers.

9 Q. The next exhibit is 2675.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, just a minute. I'm

11 still on this photograph of this Blue Building. You said, "We knew that

12 snipers used this building." You said this at line 7, page 36. What I am

13 interested in is the following: At the time, I'd like to know who

14 controlled this building. Were there HVO soldiers on the bottom floor, or

15 could anyone just walk in, climb up, shoot, and then leave? According to

16 what you saw at the time, could you tell us who controlled the building?

17 THE WITNESS: Sir, I strongly believed that HVO was controlling

18 the snipers in the building at that time.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but on the ground floor

20 were there HVO soldiers that were posted to guard this building? You say,

21 "I'm almost sure. I strongly believed that HVO was controlling the

22 building," but was there a presence of HVO with soldiers stationed on the

23 ground floor?

24 THE WITNESS: We -- we never got the impression that it was

25 that -- that secured as you -- as you are -- are talking about. I mean, a

Page 21021

1 control -- a fixed control that they had, a total grip they had on who

2 went in or out, we never were able to check that.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Just to clarify that a little bit, Colonel. The building itself,

6 which -- which zone was it located in, the HVO zone or the ABiH zone?

7 A. The HVO-controlled zone.

8 Q. Okay. At this period of time was the confrontation line well

9 established so that it was either one or the other, or was there the

10 possibility that it could have been ABiH in that building?

11 A. No, not at that time, because the positions were fixed at that

12 time.

13 Q. The -- the next exhibit is --

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, have I -- okay.

15 Q. 2675, Colonel, is the next exhibit. Is this one of the reports

16 that you and your colleague made from 8th of June, 1993?

17 A. That's correct, sir.

18 Q. Now, again, just coming back briefly to the joint commission.

19 There's a reference at the bottom of this first page to the joint

20 commission meeting having met for the first time on the east side. And

21 then continuing, it says: "Both parts decided to call off the joint

22 commission," and then the reasons are stated there.

23 Were you present at this meeting of the joint commission?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Based on your observations, how well was the joint commission

Page 21022

1 working during this -- this admittedly short period of time that you had

2 been in Mostar?

3 A. Well, the results of the joint committee at that time were very

4 poor. It was more showing willingness to sit around the table but no

5 willingness to solve the problems.

6 Q. Do you have a recollection -- there are references here to efforts

7 to create a mixed civilian police force, and I just wanted to ask again

8 briefly if you could tell us what that's about and how much success that

9 was met with by the parties.

10 A. I know that it was a part of -- a part of the agreement to -- to

11 set that up, and UNCIVPOL was dealing with that at that time to get

12 regular policemen from the east and west bank working to the patrollings.

13 Q. And was ultimately accomplished?

14 A. Not at that time.

15 Q. The next exhibit is P 2678. Now, Colonel, this is an ECMM report

16 dated 8th of June, 1993. However, this appears to be originating from

17 team M3. Do you see that?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Did you know the -- the M3 team members at that time?

20 A. Yeah. We met them every day.

21 Q. Okay. I'm just turning to the third page. Their names appear

22 there, Koskie and Smulders.

23 A. Yes, Brad Koskie was a Canadian officer and Chris Smulders was

24 Dutch.

25 Q. Now, there is a reference to a meeting with Pero Markovic, the

Page 21023

1 mayor of Capljina. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And recognising -- well, was Capljina within your area of

4 responsibility on M2?

5 A. No, that was M3.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. M3's area of responsibility.

8 Q. All right. My question about this document is found on the next

9 page, about two-thirds of the way down. There is a reference to

10 derogatory and prejudiced views about Muslims that were expressed by

11 Pero Markovic. Do you see that there?

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. Okay. My question is simply whether in your own dealings with any

14 HVO officials whether you encountered is similar views on part of HVO or

15 HVO government persons.

16 A. Well, this statement is a statement we heard more by officials.

17 Such a kind of statement I mean.

18 Q. I'm not sure I understand. Could you elaborate on that or ... ?

19 A. Well, such a position as -- as stated here was something we heard

20 often in -- in our conversations with officials.

21 Q. Okay. HVO officials?

22 A. HVO officials.

23 Q. Just for the record, we're going to be talking about some of the

24 meetings you had with some of the accused in this case, so were any of

25 these sorts of views expressed by any of the accused who are in this case

Page 21024

1 that we'll be talking about, Mr. Stojic, Pusic, Prlic, to your

2 recollection?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Is there anyone in particular that you recall as whom

5 you associate these sorts of comments with in your own dealings?

6 A. Yeah. We were dealing -- we were dealing with the HVO LO during

7 that time frame, named Stanko Maric, and he -- he was a man who -- who

8 sometimes talked in this way.

9 Q. The next exhibit is P 2703.

10 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'll go through it swiftly. If I

11 could just very briefly touch on this one, I think I can finish it in a

12 minute.

13 Q. Again, can you remember, is this one of the reports prepared by

14 you and your colleague in Mostar, M2?

15 A. Sorry, which number?

16 Q. 2703. I apologise.

17 A. Right. This is a report of M2, our report, that's correct.

18 Q. And here it's dated the 10th of June.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Okay. The -- I want to introduce this subject just before the

21 break and then we could come back to it. Item number 5 relates to a visit

22 to the hospital on the west bank. Do you see that?

23 A. Yep.

24 Q. In order to hand over a letter from the armija, Colonel Pasalic.

25 A. Correct.

Page 21025

1 Q. Okay. At this time and throughout the remainder of your time

2 there in Mostar, did you work on trying to arrange exchanges of doctors

3 and medical supplies to both hospitals, one on the west and one on the

4 east?

5 A. Very much.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I can leave it at that for now.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have a break, a

8 20-minute break and we will resume at 4.05.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have the floor,

12 Mr. Stringer.

13 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Colonel, just before the break we were looking at Exhibit 2703,

15 and I had directed your attention to item number 5 regarding your visit to

16 the hospital on the west bank, and you had stated that you spent time,

17 maybe a lot of time, trying to organise the exchange of medicines and

18 doctors as well, we'll talk about, between the hospital on the west side

19 and the hospital on the east side; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. As of this time, the 11th of June, 1993, could you give the Trial

22 Chamber just an idea, a comparison in terms of the facilities that existed

23 in the east side hospital in East Mostar versus the hospital in

24 West Mostar? How did the two of them compare?

25 A. Well, at that time in West Mostar we were talking about a normal

Page 21026

1 organised hospital with the full -- full equipped with specialists, a good

2 organisation.

3 On the east side, in the contrary, was -- we're talking about --

4 we called it a war hospital, or the war hospital, located on the east bank

5 in a former school, and I remember that very well. Very bad conditions,

6 very small place with a lot of patients. At that time, they brought in

7 also dead bodies. They were operating in the kitchen, but more worse was

8 that the team of doctors was a very small one, and they were working

9 sometimes around the clock without any sleep. Also, they had at that time

10 not all the medicines, medication or whatever, equipment, but also

11 facilities to treat the people in the right way.

12 Q. So then you set about trying to arrange for supplies and doctors

13 and medicines to go from west to east in order to improve the situation in

14 the east side war hospital.

15 A. Yeah, because for instance the Red Cross or the UNHCR was not --

16 was not deployed any more downtown Mostar because it was too dangerous, so

17 we took over. And we actually were the only ones who were able to cross

18 on to visit the east bank.

19 Q. So the only ones, the only international observers.

20 A. Exactly. Yeah.

21 Q. Okay. In the same report, moving up, in item 3 there is reference

22 to a meeting on that day with Bruno Stojic. Do you see that?

23 A. Sorry, are you talking about 2703?

24 Q. Yes. Page 2, item 3.

25 A. Right. Yeah.

Page 21027

1 Q. Now, let me ask you first, a meeting with Bruno Stojic at that

2 time. Tell us if you recall, who was Bruno Stojic? What was his

3 position?

4 A. Mr. Stojic was Ministry of Defence. He had the office at the MOD

5 of HVO, and we visit him frequently.

6 Q. Now, I notice that in this particular report there's a reference

7 to a meeting with him. However, there isn't any information about what,

8 if anything, was said at the meeting, and can you comment on that or

9 explain why that might be the case?

10 A. Well, normally, as I explained before, we made a list of subjects,

11 asking questions in the hope to get an answer, but sometimes the answers

12 were pending. And when there are no comments here, then probably

13 nothing -- no answers and no valid issues were discussed then.

14 Q. Okay. Nothing of substance?

15 A. Exactly.

16 Q. And then moving down to item 6 on the same page. This contains

17 your assessment, that of you and your colleague, Mr. Amatriain. There's a

18 comment there about HVO wanting to improve their situation in the area of

19 Donja Mahala, as well as make impossible the life in the east bank. Do

20 you see that?

21 A. Yep.

22 Q. Is that your assessment as of that time, that the HVO was wanting

23 to make life impossible on the east side, the east bank?

24 A. Yeah. Improve their situation means here strangling the

25 positions, but making the life impossible on the east side was at that

Page 21028

1 time exactly what happened, yeah, according to our observations.

2 Q. Okay. The next exhibit, 2721, is from the very next day, the 11th

3 of June, 1993. Do you have that one?

4 A. Yep.

5 Q. Okay. And is this one of the reports that you and your colleague

6 made from M2 regarding your activities on the 11th of June, 1993?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Okay. Now, in this particular report, we'll walk through it

9 first, first page at the bottom there's a reference to a meeting with

10 Mr. Pusic. Do you see that?

11 A. Yep.

12 Q. Do you recall what was the position of Mr. Pusic at this time?

13 A. Mr. Pusic at that time was the deputy military police commander.

14 Q. Is he also someone that you would meet with from time to time?

15 A. Yeah, definitely.

16 Q. Where was his office located?

17 A. His office was also located in the same building where we found

18 the office of Mr. -- of Mr. Stojic.

19 Q. Okay. So they were located in the same building?

20 A. Yep.

21 Q. All right. Now, turning to page 2 there's a reference here about

22 a third of the way down, reference to a visit to the Heliodrom prison, a

23 discussion with the deputy director, and then farther down there's an

24 assessment of your visit. Could you just briefly inform the Trial Chamber

25 how that visit to the Heliodrom came out -- came about, how you gained

Page 21029

1 entry, and what was the situation that you found at that Heliodrom when

2 you arrived there?

3 A. Yeah. When we heard that at the Heliodrom a lot of prisoners were

4 transported, and by the knowledge that the Red Cross was not working or

5 not issue any more for the same reason I just mentioned, security reasons,

6 we tried to get access to the Heliodrom prison and requested permission

7 and approval from Mr. Pusic to go there and to visit the situation, to

8 monitor the situation there.

9 Q. Okay. And on that -- on that point, then, where did you go to

10 gain your approval? What sort of approval or documentation were you

11 provided?

12 A. I think that we needed an official paper signed by him to -- to

13 give us -- to provide us access to the commander with our questions we

14 had.

15 Q. Then taking that paper from Mr. Pusic or his office, were you then

16 able to get into the Heliodrom and to look around?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Tell us about that. What happened when you arrived there, and

19 what did you find?

20 A. Well, we went there and had first an introduction by at that time

21 the chief of the Heliodrom prison. We asked him a lot of questions,

22 actually, after he gave us, let's say, figures. It's all in this report

23 by the way. After that we were able, I think after about an hour, to talk

24 to the prisoners and to visit them. Not all, but a part of it.

25 Q. And the prisoners you spoke to, can you describe in general what

Page 21030

1 was the conditions of their confinement? What sort of condition were they

2 in?

3 A. The condition was very poor because they didn't know why they were

4 there. There were no -- there were -- let me -- let me use the right

5 sequence, because --

6 Q. Sure.

7 A. They were not accused. Most of them didn't know why they were

8 there for actually and how long they should stay. So the overall

9 impression was that they were gathered or transported over there without

10 any justification. And by the way, the situation was -- was bad. I think

11 that in this report it says that we saw a lot of people in very small

12 rooms with some mattresses for HVO soldiers, and the rest was even not

13 able to sleep in a decent way, no exercises or fresh air, that kind of

14 things.

15 Q. Were those the things that they told you or that you saw when you

16 were --

17 A. No, we saw it. We went into the barracks.

18 Q. Now, did you -- were you able to determine whether these prisoners

19 or what -- what was the composition in terms of prisoner of war versus

20 civilian?

21 A. Well, that's hard to recall now, but I want to stick then to the

22 text in this report because that is what we finally noted and what

23 definitely was correct for -- for the part we were able to -- to visit.

24 That means there were HVO soldiers we saw, but most of them were civilians

25 and in civilian clothes.

Page 21031

1 Q. Okay. Now, when you were out at the Heliodrom, did you then have

2 any discussions with any of the authorities on the HVO side?

3 A. Yeah. By -- I remember that -- that -- let's say the overall

4 comments of -- of the chief at that time was, "I can't answer you. You

5 have to see the officials." And by "officials," of course he was

6 mentioning Mr. Coric, Mr. Pusic, and Mr. Stojic.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. So we planned to visit them and to ask them the same questions.

9 Q. Okay. Do you -- I want to direct your attention - excuse me - to

10 page 3 of that report just on that last point you raised, because it has

11 been a long time. You wrote: "He told us that he does not know any of

12 the reasons why people are in prison and that only Mr. Coric or Mr. Pusic

13 know these reasons."

14 Is that what you were then told? Is that an accurate reflection

15 of what you were told by the deputy out at the Heliodrom?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. The next exhibit, can you remember, is Exhibit 2731. It's a

18 little bit of a different format from the other ones, but do you recognise

19 this as one of your M2 ECMM reports dated 12th of June, 1993?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Is it your handwriting at the bottom with the date written there?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. There's a reference here to -- on this date, the 12th of June, a

24 lieutenant of the Spanish Battalion, a platoon commander who was killed in

25 the course of a convoy that was taking medicine to the east side hospital.

Page 21032

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell us what you can about your recollection of that incident.

4 A. We arranged within the contacts between the west and -- the west

5 bank hospital and the east war hospital, we arranged for the first time a

6 transport of medicines by UNPROFOR. So UNPROFOR, the platoon -- a platoon

7 for APCs picked up the medicines and equipment at the west bank and

8 transported that to the east.

9 The platoon commander and the first lieutenant, Spanish first

10 lieutenant, what is usually the situation, was standing halfway above the

11 hatch of his APC - the rest was under -- under armour - and was shot

12 almost at the same place on the road of Tito Bridge where -- where we were

13 hit from the west side as we discussed before. He was hit by a direct --

14 a direct shot and brought to the east, and I think that he died there.

15 Q. Now, in the report you wrote -- you said that the shot was fired

16 from the blue glass building, the school, and the old bank. So -- I

17 believe that's what it says. "The shots were fired from the blue glass

18 building, the school, and the old bank, west side, HVO held."

19 Could you tell us why you wrote that, what's the basis of that

20 statement and whether there was any sort of ability to conduct a formal

21 forensic investigation of the incident?

22 A. Well, the investigations officially from the Spanish government

23 and a lot of other organisations was done later on. This is based on our

24 own interpretation as we did, and I explained to you previously as we did

25 with our own vehicle.

Page 21033

1 This was also the report at the end of the day, so very fresh, by

2 our own expertise.

3 Q. So just to be clear, this wasn't the result of a scientific

4 investigation. It's just your own opinion based on --

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. -- what you saw. Okay.

7 Now, recalling that this incident occurred while the convoy was in

8 the process of delivering medicines to the east side hospital, and

9 recalling that that's an issue that you were working on in general, how

10 did this incident, this sniper incident, affect then your ability to

11 arrange further supplies of medicines and doctors to go into East Mostar?

12 A. Yeah. Firstly it frustrated UNPROFOR and especially the Spanish

13 Battalion, and as a result of that they stopped that kind of escort, that

14 kind of transport, I have to say. Finally, because the situation was

15 really very bad in the war hospital, we did it ourselves twice. We did it

16 in our small jeep.

17 Q. Okay. One last point on this to clarify -- actually, two points.

18 The blue glass building that's referred to in this memo, is that the

19 building that's in the photograph that you looked at earlier?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Okay. Now, also in this memo you referenced shots, that is more

22 than one shot, has been fired from different locations, and I wanted to

23 ask you just to clarify, if you can, what that's about. That was Exhibit

24 2731 again, sorry.

25 A. Let me read it for a moment, please. Yeah. That means that there

Page 21034

1 was more than one shot from -- from the building.

2 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

4 Colonel, if you could clarify one thing. In this document 2731,

5 you indicate that the shots came from the blue building, in other words,

6 the building that we saw in the picture. And you also note in this

7 document that it was a convoy carrying medication from the west, from the

8 hospital located in the western part, to the hospital located in the

9 eastern part, and that the convoy transporting that medication was taking

10 the Tito Bridge, travel along the Tito Bridge. And so if I understood you

11 correctly this convoy was travelling from the west to the east. Is that

12 the itinerary that you indicate in this document?

13 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's always a shame

15 we don't have maps before us. I've already said that in the past. We

16 know, because we have already looked at pictures, and we've heard

17 testimony, we've looked at depositions, we know that the Spanish

18 lieutenant was shot at by shots coming from his left, from his left. So

19 with regard to the Tito Bridge, the blue building, is the Blue Building

20 located on the left of the Tito Bridge when you are coming from Mostar

21 west?

22 THE WITNESS: The blue bank building, when you come from the west

23 side, is situated on the right of the Tito Bridge.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 THE WITNESS: I think, sir, that it's -- it's -- maybe it is a

Page 21035

1 misunderstanding, but the only thing what happens probably is a map.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that you don't

3 really know more about this. You don't know whether the building was on

4 the left or the right of the Tito Bridge.

5 THE WITNESS: Well, from -- from -- it depends from which position

6 you want to know it.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll come back to

8 that later.

9 Please go on.

10 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Sometimes I think --

11 maps certainly would be useful. Sometimes I think it's a fatality of the

12 time constraints. I'll do my best to clarify that during the witness's

13 direct examination, Mr. President.

14 Q. For now, however, let me move on, Colonel, to the next exhibit,

15 which is 2756. Is this one of your reports dated 14th of June, 1993?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. Turning to page 2 of this report, there's a reference to

18 information received from three different sources about Muslim families

19 being expelled by HVO soldiers from their homes in the south-east quarter.

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Expulsions from the quarter Dum and Vatikana. Do you see that?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Then finally a reference to HVO stickers being placed on the doors

25 of those apartments after the expulsions occur. At this point in time,

Page 21036

1 which is the 14th of June, I'd like you -- you've talked about this issue

2 of expulsions already. Are you able to comment on the extent of this

3 practice, whether it's increasing, decreasing, the level of organisation

4 or lack of organisation as you saw it?

5 A. This was mid-June. It was definitely increasing at that time.

6 Q. If you would turn to Exhibit 2735, which requires you to go

7 backwards. I want to ask you whether you recognise that exhibit.

8 A. Yeah, I do. It is a page out my -- from my notebook.

9 Q. Okay. And could you just tell the Trial Chamber, please, about

10 the various markings in it, some of which had Bosnian names. Other parts

11 are written in Dutch, and other parts have a little bit of English.

12 Perhaps you could decipher it all for us.

13 A. Yeah. Actually, if -- I take that back, and let me try to walk

14 you through a couple of sections of it sort of just to move things along.

15 You say this is from your notebook.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Now, the writings there of the Bosnian names, Rahimic Mustafa in

18 the middle, did you write that or did someone else write that?

19 A. No. That is the handwriting of our interpreter.

20 Q. How did these names come to you, why was she writing there?

21 A. This is information we got from the street, and as soon as someone

22 came with a message to our vehicle or to one of our team members, then we

23 asked our interpreter to translate it, and especially names were then

24 immediately written by her.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 21037

1 A. Because we were not able to -- to understand that in the --

2 especially the names, not in the --

3 Q. So this was a source of information you're getting on the street?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. In West Mostar.

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Now, up in the top left corner there appear the words "Vatikana

8 and Dum"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is that your handwriting?

11 A. That's my handwriting.

12 Q. We just referenced those in the report, that's Exhibit 2756, a

13 minute ago?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Again, is the information that you're picking up here being

16 reflected then in the report that you subsequently prepared?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And then just a couple of other parts here down toward the bottom

19 it says "1400 hours on Saturday, 12/6/93 by HVO soldiers expelled". Again

20 is that your handwriting?

21 A. That's my handwriting.

22 Q. And then up in the middle. It's written smaller in the right:

23 "Now occupied by HVO soldiers." Is that your handwriting?

24 Q. So that's just a reflection of the information that you were being

25 given at that time from someone on the street; correct?

Page 21038

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. How much credit would you give that information standing alone?

3 A. Standing alone it could be a rumour, but with verifying it and

4 confirming this by other sources it -- the picture became -- became

5 more -- more clear.

6 Q. Okay. Now, if you would turn to the next exhibit, 2744.

7 MR. STRINGER: And, Mr. President, and with your permission and

8 the assistance the usher, perhaps I could hand the original of this

9 exhibit to the witness that was previously discussed by us.

10 Q. Colonel, there has been discussion about the current condition of

11 this exhibit and the passage of time. Do you recognise this -- this

12 exhibit?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Okay. Can you tell us about this, how you recognise it?

15 A. It's a paper we received from someone with the names, but it's

16 very hard to read. Under Dum in typewriting letters you find five names

17 of HVO personnel. And the rest is my handwriting adding in the sixth one,

18 and that refers also to my -- to my note you saw in the previous question.

19 A sixth name was added by myself to this list.

20 Q. Okay. Now, the handwriting that's on the right-hand side, list of

21 HVO soldiers, whose handwriting is that?

22 A. That's my handwriting.

23 Q. Okay. And just for the record at the bottom right where it

24 says, "Attachment," is that the notation of the investigator when you

25 turned this over?

Page 21039

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Again, was this another source then about the information about

3 the expulsion of Muslims?

4 A. Definitely.

5 Q. And then is this information reflected in your report of the 14th

6 of June, which is Exhibit 2756?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Okay. One last question on that one -- I take that back. We can

9 move on to the next exhibit.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Colonel, on the

11 document that you have before you, it's a sheet of paper torn, we can see

12 where it was torn, someone handed this paper to you, someone in the

13 street? Is that how things occurred?

14 THE WITNESS: In the street, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he handed this to you,

16 what did he say to you?

17 THE WITNESS: Well, that is what I -- what I wrote here myself by

18 hand, that the five soldiers were recognised expelling Muslims on that

19 date at that time.

20 A. Yes, but this unknown individual who handed the paper to you, he

21 hands to you a paper on which five names are typed, among which Stela, the

22 first name, when he hands this paper to you does he stay that this is a

23 list of those who are -- who were at the time expelling or evicting

24 Muslims, or did he just hand this paper to you and leave? Did you have an

25 actual conversation with this individual and with the interpreter present?

Page 21040

1 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour, because as a result of

2 that conversation I made this note on the paper.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So does this mean that this

4 unknown individual had himself or else somewhere else had typed a list of

5 individuals whom he was denouncing, in fact? By handing you this document

6 and dealing you they things he was denouncing these people?

7 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why did you add the six the

9 name, Viktor Markovic? Why did you add the sixth name?

10 THE WITNESS: Because at the same -- in the same conversation that

11 was added. So the list was not complete.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it was that

13 individual who told you that there was also among those people

14 Viktor Markovic?

15 THE WITNESS: Correct.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the individual who handed

17 this list to you, I assume he was wearing civilian clothing, or was he

18 wearing military clothing?

19 THE WITNESS: I can't answer the -- that question. I don't -- I

20 don't remember.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But was he a Croat

22 or a Muslim?

23 THE WITNESS: This was handed over on the west bank. That is for

24 sure. On the west bank, not on the east.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but it could have been a

Page 21041

1 Croat or a Bosnian. It could have been anyone.

2 THE WITNESS: For sure, sir, but unfortunately I can't tell you

3 his -- his ethnic background, and I even don't know his name.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. And on the basis of

5 this document, you drafted a report.

6 THE WITNESS: That's correct. We mentioned it, yeah. In the

7 report.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, but I think

9 my colleague will then have a question for you. I noted that your

10 interpreter was of Muslim origin. Was it not taking a risk for

11 international civil servants to hire as interpreters representatives of

12 one faction, one party? Is there not a risk of various forms of

13 manipulation.

14 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, we had a pool of interpreters in

15 Siroki Brijeg, and we had Croats as well. And of course there was always

16 a risk, sure. But -- but let me explain. They were working, let's say,

17 under more or less our protection, and they had official papers from ECMM,

18 also translated in Bosnian, Croatian language.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But I note somewhat

20 oddly, curiously, that your interpreter takes you to the place where

21 people were allegedly expelled. So you are brought to one might say the

22 place where the crime was committed. You're taken to an apartment. We

23 saw pictures, an apartment that allegedly was visited. Some larceny was

24 committed given the state that we see, the fact that shots were fired, and

25 by coincidence it's your interpreter who takes you to the place.

Page 21042

1 THE WITNESS: Well, in this particular case we -- I have to

2 explain how it worked. We went home before darkness, as I said before,

3 and in the morning, before we started the trip, the first thing we did was

4 picking her up from their home place, and what happened sometimes is that

5 she gave us information, because people went to her place and -- and came

6 with -- with messages. In this particular case, talking about the

7 pictures, I mean, not -- not this piece of paper but referring to -- to

8 the pictures I took at that specific address, that was by -- by her

9 information. That's correct, yeah.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may be of assistance. You may

11 wish to ask the gentleman, because on page 2 on his witness statement he

12 deliberately says, "We deliberately had hired a Muslim interpreter because

13 we were afraid that the Bosnian Croat interpreters would brief the Bosnian

14 Croat leaders about us." So here is somewhat of a direct contradiction of

15 what he indicated earlier, because here he says, "we deliberately hired a

16 Muslim ... " So I think it's in line with your questions, Mr. President.

17 You may wish to explore that as well.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Counsel for Defence here

19 is observing, is noting something. You said that you deliberately had

20 hired a Muslim interpreter to make sure that the interpreter would not

21 brief the Bosnian Croat leaders on what you were doing, but wasn't there a

22 risk that she could brief the ABiH on what you were doing? There is a

23 risk on both sides. And was this risk correctly assessed by your

24 organisation and yourself?

25 THE WITNESS: Definitely, sir, because we know how intel works,

Page 21043

1 and we had Croat interpreters, as I said, in Siroki Brijeg. One of the

2 reasons, and we were lucky to do so and allowed to do so, was to make our

3 own choice not using them in Siroki Brijeg for going downtown Mostar

4 exactly for that reason, yeah.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but maybe I'm going to ask

6 a silly question, but why didn't you hire Serbian interpreters?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, the most important reason probably is that she

8 was studying English. So that was the first very important reason to do

9 so. And she was living in -- in, let's say, in a very, for us, convenient

10 place for doing business and picking her up in the morning. So there were

11 a lot of practical things to go for her as well. And at the moment that

12 we did, we were convinced she was not involved in any system involved.

13 Let me say it that way. So we trust her at that moment very much.

14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, please, I would like to

15 stop for a moment and draw your attention, if need be, on the content of

16 this slip of paper where there are names, names of HVO soldiers who would

17 allegedly have evicted Muslim people. I find it very hard to understand

18 and to accept that someone would hand you over a slip of paper like that

19 and that you would turn it over to the Prosecutor. If this document is

20 admitted as an exhibit, there are great consequences that may derive from

21 it. So this is my question: Did your team have any legal or police

22 competence or competence in terms of intelligence gathering so that you

23 were able to cross a number of information to make sure that this document

24 was really strong enough to be shown to the Prosecutor? I would really

25 like to be assured -- reassured about this.

Page 21044

1 THE WITNESS: No, we hadn't in our organisation such an intel

2 specialist, but this came from my personal -- my personal notes and

3 documents I still had when I returned, and I showed that to the Prosecutor

4 in January 2002 -- or, let's say, in the preparation phase for my first

5 testimony, and it was up to them to accept it, of course.

6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We had a number of questions

8 asked about this document, but Mr. Stringer, you can resume.

9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Witness, on this note and the others, or the other one that you

11 mentioned, you've described the situation with people coming up to you in

12 the street with information. Isn't it possible that they were

13 manufacturing evidence and that --

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. It calls for speculation, Your Honour.

15 It calls for speculation. "Isn't it possible?" A lot of things,

16 possible. What is fact? That's what we are dealing with here.

17 MR. STRINGER: I can restate the question, Mr. President.

18 Q. Did you consider whether the information being provided was false

19 or that you were attempting -- others were attempting to mislead you about

20 the situation on expulsion of Muslims in Mostar?

21 A. Not at that moment when we received it.

22 Q. Over time did information continue to come in from other sources

23 about this activity?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Do you have any doubts about whether in fact that was happening

Page 21045

1 during this period of time in Mostar?

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. The next exhibit is P 2782. This is one of your reports, is it

4 not, from the 15th of June, 1993?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. Okay. Bottom of page 1 there's a reference to a meeting. You've

7 got a list of materials needed from the east side hospital. And then

8 turning the page, I want to ask you about two things there. Moving down a

9 few lines there's a reference to an HVO offer. "The HVO offered to take

10 care of all the wounded people, Muslims or Croats, including people from

11 the east side." And then it continues: "We asked the SpaBat commander to

12 provide transport of medicines from the west hospital to the east one, but

13 we've been told that they need, before providing the transport, an

14 agreement signed by both parts."

15 The first question is could you comment on the likelihood or the

16 possibility of, in fact, moving all of the people in the east side

17 hospital to the west side and taking advantage of this offer that was

18 extended by the Croats on the west side? Did that happen? If not --

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, why not?

21 A. It didn't happen, because finally there was no agreement by both

22 parties, and also the Spanish Battalion at that very moment was not very

23 happy to -- to provide the -- the escort after the incident with the

24 lieutenant.

25 Q. Was it feasible to think that all of the patients on the east side

Page 21046

1 could have been moved out to the west side?

2 A. Well, I think it was of not feasible at that moment because

3 they -- they were also very afraid for their -- for their existence,

4 actually, at that moment.

5 Q. And what was the reason why they were so concerned or afraid about

6 that?

7 A. Because the overall situation was that bad.

8 Q. Do you know if the incident involving the lieutenant who was

9 killed on the APC would have affected or did affect the Spanish

10 Battalion's willingness to participate?

11 A. Definitely, yeah.

12 Q. Okay. And then moving to the next page, paragraph 6, under the

13 assessment: "At present the transport of wounded people from the east

14 side to the west is totally impossible due to the snipers."

15 Was that your assessment at the time?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And again there's another reference to ethnic cleansing on the

18 west side, a Muslim. Was that continuing to take place based on your

19 information?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. The next exhibit is P 2806. Colonel, this is -- well, is this one

22 of your M2 reports prepared by you and your colleague Mr. Amatriain?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. There is reference in this report to a couple of meetings

25 that you had on this day, 16th of June, and I'd like to ask you to talk

Page 21047

1 about those.

2 Did you have a meeting with Mr. Pusic and Mr. Coric on this day,

3 the 16th of June?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And is that meeting -- is that meeting indicated here that -- the

6 topics that were raised during that meeting, looking at the top of page 2?

7 A. That's correct. We were talking about a visit to the Heliodrom, I

8 think. Let me check it.

9 Q. I direct you to the top of page 2.

10 A. Oh, yeah. The Heliodrom, and of course what was going on in -- in

11 the western part concerning expelling of people.

12 Q. Okay. And after this meeting with Messrs. Pusic and Coric, then,

13 did you have a separate meeting with Defence Minister Stojic?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell us about the first meeting, specifically

16 what would have been the issues you would have raised or did raise with

17 Pusic and Coric, and what responses they gave to the issues that you had

18 raised with them?

19 A. Bottom line of that discussion was that -- that they were not able

20 to give answers on our questions, the same questions we had for the

21 commander over there as I told you before, and that they said that the

22 people over there are not accused yet because all the cases are under

23 investigation.

24 Q. Now, is this a reference to the people in the Heliodrom?

25 A. Correct. Correct.

Page 21048

1 Q. What was the specific issues you raised in regard to the Heliodrom

2 about the situation out there with them?

3 A. Well, we were asking why they were there, what were the -- the

4 charges against these people, for how long. And then we discussed, of

5 course, the situation, the situation in the camp itself, so the bad

6 circumstances.

7 Q. All right. And what was the response regarding this issue of

8 their being held there and not knowing why they were held?

9 A. Well, that was -- that was used frequently. "We don't have" --

10 "We are not able to give you that answer because it's a war situation,"

11 and that was the justification, more or less, for not giving answers.

12 Q. Now, you said you also raised the issue of Muslim expulsions from

13 West Mostar. What was the -- well, let me ask you, what was the response

14 with regard to that issue? What did they say?

15 A. That it didn't happen, and if it happened, then it was done by --

16 by people they didn't had under control, criminals or whatever.

17 Q. Okay. Now, was that response acceptable to you, or was it one

18 that you could accept based on what you -- you were observing and learning

19 about in Mostar at the time?

20 A. We had to accept these kind of answers, but for -- for ourselves,

21 it was, of course, not acceptable.

22 Q. And why do you say that? Why was it not acceptable?

23 A. Because I -- we believed, the team believed, that it was organised

24 and that there was a plan to do so.

25 Q. Now, moving down the second page there's reference now to the

Page 21049

1 meeting you had with Mr. Stojic on the same day. Do you see that?

2 A. Yep.

3 Q. Again just so we know, where did these meetings take place?

4 A. In his office.

5 Q. And what about Messrs. Pusic and Coric? Where did that meeting

6 take place?

7 A. In his office as well, the same building.

8 Q. Whose office?

9 A. The office of, I suppose -- well, that's hard to recall. I don't

10 know if it was the office of Mr. Coric or Mr. Pusic, but they were both at

11 the same meeting.

12 Q. All right. And this is in the ministry building?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Now, what were the issues that you raised with Mr. Stojic?

15 A. Actually, the same issues we raised in the previous meeting with

16 Mr. Coric and Pusic.

17 Q. That being the Heliodrom and then also expulsion or evictions?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. All right. Now, there's a reference here. What was Mr. Stojic's

20 response regarding the 504 prisoners in the Heliodrom?

21 A. Yeah, it's in this report. It was more or less the same statement

22 that they were still not accused but under investigation.

23 Q. Okay. And what was -- what did he say about the issue of

24 expulsions of Muslim civilians from West Mostar?

25 A. More or less the same answer: "We are not involved in it. When

Page 21050

1 it happened, then it was done by criminals."

2 Q. Okay. Did you also raise with Mr. Stojic the issue of the

3 shooting of the Spanish Battalion lieutenant?

4 A. We did, because we -- we asked both sides to -- to give us the

5 outcome of their investigation upon the murder.

6 Q. And what was Mr. Stojic's response or comment on that issue?

7 A. Well, Mr. Stojic in that meeting, and that's why you can read it

8 here in the report, answered that -- that the shooting was not coming from

9 the west side and the blue -- the blue bank building, because he had all

10 snipers under control, also in the gymnasium. That was his statement.

11 Q. He said he had all snipers under full control?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. In which locations?

14 A. The blue bank building, as we call it, and the gymnasium.

15 Q. The blue bank building being the structure that you identified in

16 the photograph earlier?

17 A. That's correct.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, Prosecutor asked you a

19 question but he hadn't ask the question I would have asked myself. During

20 your conversation with Mr. Stojic, according to your report it seems that

21 what you were talking about the death of the Spanish officer, Mr. Stojic

22 said that it was the ABiH who committed this crime, but it seems that

23 added -- when you read the sentence that the HVO did not shoot at that

24 time, and in English you write: "[In English] And all snipers were under

25 full control," so Mr. Stojic would have told you that all snipers were

Page 21051

1 under full control in the gymnasium and in the blue bank building. So

2 Mr. Stojic himself told you that the snipers located in these two

3 buildings were under HVO control? He said that himself?

4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This is not my text. It is the text I noted

5 or we noted after that conversation. So that is correct, sir.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. So what you're writing

7 are Mr. Stojic's words.

8 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. I'm going to move to Exhibit 2898, if I may. Colonel, very

12 briefly on this one. Again, is this one of your reports, that is you and

13 Mr. Amatriain, of the 22nd of June, 1993?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. All right. And the bottom of the first page there's a reference

16 to an attempt to meet with Mr. Stojic. Do you see that?

17 A. That's correct, yeah.

18 Q. And now did you succeed to meet with him that day?

19 A. No.

20 Q. They propose that you meet instead with Mr. Bosic. You refuse.

21 I'm just wondering if you recall or if you can shed light on why you would

22 have rejected a proposal to meet with Mr. Bosic instead of Mr. Stojic.

23 A. Well, sometimes it happened at that Mr. Stojic was not available

24 and we talked to Mr. Bosic, but in this specific case, I suppose, because

25 now -- now it's hard to recall, of course, but the only reason could be is

Page 21052

1 that he promised us answers on specific important things we wanted to hear

2 from himself.

3 Q. There's a reference here to information from the Spanish Battalion

4 commander that the Donja Mahala quarter has run out of food completely,

5 and as there are a lot of refugees and displaced people, they are asking

6 for visits from organisational -- international organisations and

7 assistance. Do you see that?

8 A. Yep.

9 Q. Now, the refugees and displaced people, do you know, if you know,

10 who were they, where were they, and where had they come from in general?

11 A. That's very hard --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- to answer. I can't recall it.

14 Q. And that was a bad question. Is this -- is there any connection

15 between this reference and then people who were being evicted from

16 West Mostar, if you know?

17 A. Well, we -- what I can say at this moment only is that we had that

18 information from other sources as well. This was not new for us.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I mean --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. Talking about that specific area.

23 Q. All right. The next exhibit is 2923.

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, are we going to go to 20 minutes

25 past the hour? I wasn't sure what time the break would be coming.

Page 21053

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Until 35.


3 Q. Colonel, do you have Exhibit 2923 in front of you?

4 A. I have.

5 Q. Okay. And again, is this one the reports that you prepared, the

6 M2 team, you and Jesus Amatriain?

7 A. That's correct, sir.

8 Q. Now, at the bottom of page 2 under the section of "Other

9 subjects," and the last line it begins a reference to Mr. Bagaric and the

10 HVO hospital on the west side. Who was he?

11 A. He was at that time the -- let's say chef de clinic, chief of the

12 west bank hospital organisation.

13 Q. Okay. Is he a person that you had dealings with on these issues

14 of exchange of doctors and supply of medicines?

15 A. At that time, yes.

16 Q. Now, in this report there's a reference -- or he's talking about

17 an exchange of doctors that would require HVO doctors from other regions

18 up towards Central Bosnia to be -- have freedom of movement. Do you see

19 that?

20 A. Yep.

21 Q. Okay. And then there's also, just moving down a line, a reference

22 of his suggestion to open the old hospital of Mostar on the west side near

23 the front line and use it as a war hospital for everybody. Do you see

24 that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21054

1 Q. Could you just briefly comment on those two points? How feasible

2 was it to achieve an exchange of doctors involving not only those in

3 Mostar but those who are in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. Talking about the exchange of doctors, it was more or less the end

5 of our proposal because this was not feasible. So the local situation was

6 linked by him to another situation outside our area where the Croat

7 position was a bad one. And talking about the war hospital in the

8 confrontation zone, of course a show-stopper. It didn't work at that time

9 in that situation, under that kind of dangerous circumstances.

10 Q. Show-stopper, meaning not possible?

11 A. Not possible.

12 Q. And again why was it not possible to open up this old war

13 hospital?

14 A. Well, I don't know if that was possible, but he definitely should

15 not have the possibility to get all the patients there, talking about

16 unsecure transport, for instance. And by the way, the situation in the --

17 in the confrontation line at that time was too dangerous anyway.

18 Q. Okay. And the location of this old hospital was close to the

19 confrontation line?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Okay. And then moving down to the bottom of the page there is a

22 reference to the Old Bridge. Information came to you from Mr. Bilic who

23 was on the east side, and I'd just like you to comment on the condition of

24 the Old Bridge as of that time from what you recall, and if you call this

25 issue of a broken water tube that was dropping water on the foundation.

Page 21055

1 A. Well, what I remember is that at that time talking about -- that

2 was the end of June, more or less, yeah. It became more worse than it was

3 before. So the -- the Old Bridge was heavily damaged at that time

4 already.

5 Q. And then moving to the next page. Towards the end of your

6 report: "We think the HVO is not willing to deal with humanitarian aid

7 for the east bank." Why did you say that at that time?

8 A. Well, for the same reasons I just explained you. Coming with such

9 a kind of proposal means that you are not really willing to solve the

10 problem on the local -- on the local level.

11 Q. Did you see -- did you see any tangible steps taken on the HVO

12 side to achieve some way to alleviate the situation for civilians in East

13 Mostar?

14 A. Not at that time, no.

15 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is 2941. And is this one of your reports

16 again, dated 25th of June, 1993?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. Okay. Okay. And turning to the second page, at the bottom,,

19 although it may be that the Trial Chamber has heard enough about notes,

20 I'm going to introduce the subject of one more of them.

21 Do you recall receiving a note from a child when you were in West

22 Mostar about this time?

23 A. Yep. That's correct.

24 Q. Okay. Then if you could turn to Exhibit 2935. Tell us whether

25 you recognise that's the note.

Page 21056

1 A. Sorry, can you repeat that?

2 Q. 2935.

3 A. 35.

4 Q. 2935, yes. It's back.

5 A. Yeah. The Official Note is the last one in the Serbo-Croatian

6 language, of course. It starts with, "Help me."

7 Q. The third page of this?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. That was received by you.

10 A. Right.

11 Q. And who gave that to you?

12 A. That was the child we're talking about.

13 Q. What part of Mostar were you in when this happened? Your report

14 is 2941, if you want to go back and refer to that.

15 A. That's hard to say, but maybe in the report it makes clear where

16 we were.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Where we went.

19 Q. Okay. It indicates at the bottom you were arranging for the

20 transport of a -- of someone else.

21 A. Mm-hmm.

22 Q. And in the course of that this note came to you. Do you see that?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Okay. If you could just briefly tell us, then, what -- after you

25 received this note what -- what did you do about it? Again, it's an

Page 21057

1 another source, I suppose, like the others.

2 A. Yeah. When we received this, we went to the spot to check if --

3 if that happened.

4 Q. And what did you -- what, if anything, were you able to find out?

5 A. It was -- we were not able at that moment to find exactly the

6 location, but in the vicinity of where it happened, let's say in that

7 neighbourhood, we saw soldiers putting piece of papers on the trees.

8 Q. Okay. Let me back up a little bit. I don't think I've asked you

9 enough questions about how it led to that. The note itself, what can you

10 give us -- we have the note indicating: "Help me. Yesterday evening a

11 crime was committed there against Alikalfic family, husband and wife,

12 Muslims, their house was mined and they burnt to death in the fire." Do

13 you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, that's the note that you received. Then -- and the date of

16 the note, just for the record?

17 A. 24th of June.

18 Q. 24th of June. And this then is again referred to in your report

19 of 25 June. So then you went to this area, as you say, and what did you

20 find when you arrived there?

21 A. As I said, we were not able to find exactly the place where it

22 happened, but in that area we saw soldiers putting papers on -- on the

23 trees.

24 Q. What kind of papers?

25 A. That were announcements about the family. We found out later

Page 21058

1 because our interpreter went out to translate the text.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. And we found out that it was the same family was mentioned.

4 Q. In these notices or papers that were being posted to the trees?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. All right. Did you speak to any of the HVO soldiers?

7 A. No, we didn't.

8 Q. All right. Now, moving down just a few lines, there's a reference

9 here, you say: "We saw one HV, that is HV car going to Mostar." I'd just

10 like to ask you briefly to comment on that issue whether at this time and

11 other times, you observed HV, that is Croatian army, military personnel in

12 your area of responsibility or elsewhere in Western Herzegovina.

13 A. Sometimes we -- we saw them in the Mostar area, but at that time

14 not that often.

15 Q. Okay. Toward the bottom of the page, then, you make a reference

16 here to: "During the last days we've been warned that the HVO is doing a

17 lot of atrocities, raping, burning people in their houses, et cetera. We

18 cannot confirm any case, but we have seen some things related to the

19 events and the sources are completely different."

20 So I wonder if you can just tell the Trial Chamber what source --

21 what were the sources, if you recall? What was the information that was

22 coming in that was related to these actions?

23 A. Well, we normally had information by the intel officer of the

24 Spanish Battalion. We had at that time still contact with the UN military

25 observers, and of course our -- our two teams gave information. So

Page 21059

1 besides that what we heard in the street from different people, I mean, we

2 tried to verify these things as much as possible.

3 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is P 3 --

4 A. Sorry, maybe -- maybe let me explain why -- why the intel officer

5 of the Spanish battalion was so important. You have to understand that

6 the Spanish Battalion was deployed on company-size level within Mostar.

7 So there came a lot of information via the companies to the battalion, and

8 they made their analysis of the situation. So we are talking about, in

9 the military sense, HumInt was used to produce a picture at that moment.

10 Q. HumInt being human intelligence?

11 A. Yeah, human intelligence.

12 Q. And just so we know roughly, if you recall the size of a company

13 in the Spanish Battalion at that time. How many individuals are we

14 talking?

15 A. About hundred fifty.

16 Q. The next exhibit is 3007. Now, in this -- well, I should ask you,

17 do you recognise this report, Colonel, as one of the ones that you and

18 your colleague prepared?

19 A. It is one of our reports, yeah.

20 Q. Okay. And this is dated the 29th of June, 1993?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. All right. So just sort of setting the stage. This is just prior

23 to, then, an event that we'll talk about probably after the break, which

24 is the ABiH offensive on the northern barracks that occurred on the early

25 morning of the 30th.

Page 21060

1 A. Right.

2 Q. So that's where we are in time. You had a conversation here, it's

3 referenced on the middle of page 2, conversation with an individual named

4 Puljic, and I wanted to ask you first of all who was Mr. Puljic? What was

5 his position?

6 A. Mr. Puljic was the Chief of Staff at the HVO headquarters in

7 Mostar.

8 Q. Okay. And actually, during the course of this conversation did

9 you learn that he had a new job or a --

10 A. Yeah, he told us. Yeah, yeah.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. He became commander, what normally means a promotion.

13 Q. Okay. And I don't -- we don't need to go into the details of the

14 whole conversation, but I wanted to ask you, turning to the third page,

15 actually, while there was talk of re-establishing the joint commission,

16 that's on the second page, and then the next page again you're raising

17 this issue about an exchange of doctors, and he indicated that there were

18 pressures on the HVO to avoid agreements, and I want to ask you about

19 that. Do you recall that?

20 A. No. Can you repeat it?

21 Q. Sure. If you would turn to page 3.

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Moving down about 10 lines. "When we asked him about the exchange

24 of doctors with the east side, he liked the idea, but he told us that some

25 paramilitary organisations still exist in the community of Herceg-Bosna,

Page 21061

1 and they are putting a lot of pressure on the HVO to avoid any agreement

2 with the armija." Right?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. Just taking that, then, and going to the next page, and then we

5 can just talk about all of it. There's a comment here. Again, this is

6 your view under "Assessment," a reference to paramilitary organisations

7 inside or next to the HVO, extremists, nationalists, full of criminals.

8 You go on and you actually mention then by name three individuals, a Tuta,

9 an Andabak, and a Juka. Do you see that?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. "... We had confirmed their high level in the Croatian Community

12 of Herceg-Bosna."

13 Those three names, what can you recall now about Tuta, Andabak,

14 Juka, those individuals and your observations of them during the time that

15 you were in Mostar?

16 A. At that time we considered these people not to be a -- member of a

17 paramilitary organisation, but we considered them as a part of the HVO

18 structure.

19 Q. Had you met -- well, let's take Tuta first. Had you met him

20 personally or seen him during the course of your travels from Mostar to

21 Siroki Brijeg?

22 A. Well, I have seen him. I never spoke to him. I saw him several

23 times.

24 Q. Do you know where he had an office?

25 A. From our information he had an office at the MOD of HVO.

Page 21062

1 Q. That's what you were informed?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. You were never there personally?

4 A. We never saw him there.

5 Q. And then Mr. Andabak. Did you ever have any -- up until this

6 date, the 29th, did you have any had you ever met him or seen him?

7 A. Yes, we once met him in Siroki Brijeg.

8 Q. Okay. And then finally Mr. Juka. Do you recall who that's a

9 reference to?

10 A. Yeah, we -- we were witnessing that he with his group of soldiers

11 sometimes intimidated the -- the -- our joint commission members, the

12 fixed members, especially in this case he was against Colonel Pasalic.

13 Q. Intimidating joint commission members. This is the joint

14 commission that you testified about earlier?

15 A. Yeah, that's correct.

16 Q. Were you ever present at any joint commission meetings when

17 Mr. Juka Prazina came?

18 A. Yeah, we did. On the west bank.

19 Q. On the west bank.

20 A. As a result of that the next one, and we talked about that prior,

21 was done on the east bank, because we had to transport -- or we UNPROFOR

22 had to secure, to transport the people from the east bank due to this kind

23 of intimidation.

24 Q. Okay. Can you describe what kind of intimidation of

25 Colonel Pasalic did you see at the time of the joint commission meeting?

Page 21063

1 A. Shooting and shouting phrases that made them very tense and

2 unsecure, gave them an unsecure feeling.

3 Q. Did you see the efforts on the part of other HVO units to control

4 him or to prevent him from getting access to the joint commission?

5 A. Well, UNPROFOR did, actually.

6 Q. What about the HVO itself?

7 A. No, I didn't have the impression that that was done by HVO.

8 Q. Now, you say here that initially you indicate that: "We had

9 confirmed their high level in the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and

10 the HVO."

11 Did you have information that was provided to you, available to

12 you in terms of what was believed to be the hierarchy and the

13 organisational structure within the HVO?

14 A. Yeah. We from the beginning intel information from the

15 Spanish Battalion.

16 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn to Exhibit 10025. That's

17 10025. This is one of the ones, Counsel, that was added.

18 MR. MURPHY: Your Honours, I haven't wanted to interrupt even

19 though we've now had a very long period of essentially multiple-level

20 hearsay and speculation from this witness on a variety of subjects, but am

21 I to understand that Mr. Stringer now is going to have this witness

22 testify about the structure of the HVO based upon intel that he got from

23 the Spanish Battalion, and he's going to be asked to examine a document

24 that he got from this source and give some kind of expert opinion about

25 that, and then make deductions about who was in the upper echelons of the

Page 21064

1 HVO? Because if that is the case, I object strongly. We've had other

2 evidence on this subject, and this witness simply is not competent to

3 provide this sort of opinion.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: And, Your Honour, I wish to join in on that

5 objection. I was waiting, but I was beat for once to the button, but I do

6 object strongly about this.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have a document,

8 an organisational chart. We've already seen it. It has been challenged.

9 The witness -- one of the witness's mandates was to make reports on what

10 was going on in Mostar, and so the Prosecution can ask him about his point

11 of view, whether he believes that the documents are -- relate to the

12 situation. The Trial Chamber will then draw conclusions on the basis of

13 the many elements that we will have before us, an addition of various

14 pieces of evidence. So please be quick in asking your question because we

15 will take a break in five minutes.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Colonel, yes, the document that's in front of you, P 10025, do you

18 recognise that?

19 A. I do, sir.

20 Q. Was that a -- well, tell us what it is. If you could tell the

21 Trial Chamber specifically what this is about?

22 A. Yeah. This is an updated document dated the 22nd of July, as you

23 see what depicts the structure of the military organisation.

24 Q. And was this document available to you? Did you have it at the

25 time of your presence in Mostar? In fact, we're talking about a day here

Page 21065

1 that's one week after the date of this, so the 29th of July, 1993. Was

2 this information in your hand at the time?

3 A. Yeah. It already existed there. That's why I said that this is

4 updated to that date.

5 Q. All right. Now, if you would just -- counting, if you would just

6 turn -- there are a number of charts here I'm not going to ask you to

7 comment on. If you would just turn to the eighth page of this, because I

8 don't intend to get into a detailed discussion of the HVO structure.

9 The eighth page by my count at the bottom C-4-A. First of all, do

10 you know who made this, how this information was put together?

11 A. This -- this was updated by the intel section of the

12 Spanish Battalion.

13 Q. All right. Now, on the eighth page, which I think is the eighth

14 page, there's a box on the left, SPF, and underneath that

15 indicated "Commander M. Naletilic, Tuta." Do you see that?

16 A. I see.

17 Q. And next to that there is a reference to Juka and Andabak as

18 commands in their own right at a subordinate level?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. So my question now, getting back to your report, is whether this

21 information that's reflected in the Exhibit 10025, whether that's

22 information that you used in making your own characterisations of the

23 relative levels of Juka, Tuta, and Andabak within the HVO organisation.

24 A. Well, this is one of the sources as I explained to you before, but

25 we had also our own observations and other sources to come to a

Page 21066

1 conclusion.

2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I can leave it there for the break

3 if --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Let us take a break,

5 20-minute break.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar. Please go back

9 in private session for a few minutes.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 21067

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 Let's bring the witness into the courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed and,

6 Mr. Stringer, you have the floor.

7 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Colonel, just before the break we were looking at your report of

9 29 July 1993, and we finished that. So that brings us to the 30th of

10 July -- I'm sorry, June, 30th of June 1993, and I'd like to take you to an

11 exhibit which has already been received in evidence, Mr. President. It's

12 Exhibit P 3025. 3025. This would be an ECMM report dated the 30th of

13 June. Do you have that? 3025.

14 A. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

15 Q. On the 30th of June do you recall that there was an offensive

16 launched by the ABiH directed against the HVO at a place called the

17 northern barracks?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And this is the report made on that day by you; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Your report of 30 June. Now, turning to page 2. We're going to

22 get to this in a minute. You had a number of meetings on that day, the

23 last of which was a meeting or an encounter indicated there with a

24 Mr. Ivan Andabak, commander special unit, HVO. Do you see that?

25 A. Yep.

Page 21068

1 Q. Okay. And we'll talk about that in just a moment, but perhaps if

2 you could skip down and just to perhaps bring you back to where you were

3 when you learned of the ABiH attack that had happened and how that

4 affected your -- your activities pretty much from that point forward. So

5 where were you when you heard about this? I can direct you to page 2,

6 middle of the page. There's a reference to a meeting.

7 A. Yeah. We went -- by the way, my Spanish colleague was not a

8 member at that time. He was on leave. So the chief of the coordination

9 centre, Mr. Nissen, was the second one.

10 We had a programme also for that day, and we went to -- to the

11 western hospital, the hospital on the west bank.

12 Q. And about three-quarters of the way down page 2, it says: "After

13 visiting the HVO hospital, we got the next HVO statement by the military

14 doctor in charge."

15 A. Yeah. Then we heard for the first time about the attack.

16 Q. So he gave you sort of a briefing --

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. -- about the events. All right. Now, after you -- well, this

19 event, if you could speak in general terms because here we are the end of

20 June and you were still going to be remaining in this area for almost

21 another two months. Can you describe in general terms how that event

22 changed the situation on the ground, how it affected your ability to move

23 and to gather information as you had before?

24 A. Yeah. It changed the situation in that respect that -- that it

25 relieved for a moment the situation on the east bank, and we strongly

Page 21069

1 believed at that moment that -- that HVO, the west -- the west side was

2 surprised by this attack. But as consequence of that, they closed the

3 road for us, and we were not able to enter Mostar downtown for more than

4 four weeks.

5 Q. And as you indicated before, sort of your procedure was to go into

6 Mostar from Siroki Brijeg, and then from West Mostar into East Mostar.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. So again, after this development and the closure, were you able to

9 enter either West or East Mostar for that one-month period?

10 A. Not at all any more.

11 Q. Okay. All right. Now, on the third page of this exhibit, which

12 is 3025, after the briefing that you received there's a reference then

13 your having -- "After visiting the hospital we met the family of our

14 Mostar interpreter, and after some time we were warned and ordered to

15 leave Mostar immediately by the special unit of Andabak, HVO, who was at

16 that moment in charge. The unit was preparing an operation in that

17 quarter of Mostar and we had the strong feeling everything had to do

18 which" -- perhaps that's "with"?

19 A. With, yeah.

20 Q. Intimidation, threatening and maybe expelling of Muslim people

21 from that part. So if you could, just briefly, tell the Trial Chamber

22 about that incident and you were encounter with Commander Andabak.

23 A. Yeah. I remember that Mr. Nissen wanted to talk -- well, we were

24 in -- it was the end of the afternoon, and we were at the time to bring

25 back our interpreter. Mr. Nissen wanted to talk to her parents as well.

Page 21070

1 Q. Let me just jump in there. When you say to bring back your

2 interpreter, you mean -- where were you going to take her?

3 A. To her home place. Sorry. To her home place.

4 During the conversation we heard a lot of -- of noise outside, and

5 we saw through the window soldiers deploying, actually, and the people

6 get -- got very excited at that moment, and our interpreter said, "Please

7 leave -- leave the flat as soon as possible, the apartment as soon as

8 possible," and we did. And the moment we left the apartment, walking to

9 our vehicle we -- we met Mr. Andabak, who was very surprised to see us,

10 and who was very angry, actually, directing us to go back to Siroki Brijeg

11 immediately. That was the situation.

12 Q. Was he accompanied by others? Was he with other people?

13 A. Well, at -- at -- what we saw, actually, that he was playing the

14 role of commander of that group of soldiers.

15 Q. And can you estimate how many soldiers were present with him?

16 A. Not the total, but what we counted was at least 15, 1-5.

17 Q. And how were the soldiers dressed? Were they in uniform?

18 A. They were in uniform, yeah.

19 Q. All right. Uniform of any particular military organisation?

20 A. For so far we saw, the 15 were dressed in HVO uniform.

21 Q. Now, you're a military man and you were a military man at the time

22 it. Can you describe the attitude of the soldiers that were accompanying

23 him, the ones that you saw? What was their demeanour?

24 A. Well, we got impression that they were deploying for a certain

25 operation.

Page 21071

1 Q. Were they armed?

2 A. They were armed, yes. Sure.

3 Q. Do you recall how they were armed, what sort of weapons they --

4 A. What I remember is that they were armed with regular rifles.

5 Q. Now, in your report, then, you indicate that possibly they were

6 intending to expel Muslim people from that part. Do you see that?

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. What makes you say that?

9 A. Because they showed up there. So deploying means that -- that you

10 are going to -- to execute an operation or an action.

11 Q. Was there any ABiH military in that area? In other words, for --

12 A. No, no, no, no. That had nothing to do with the confrontation

13 line as well. It was in other area, actually.

14 Q. Now, did this incident -- did you associate with any of the other

15 activities that you'd been seeing in Mostar during your time up to that

16 point?

17 A. Well, it fits, of course, in what we heard about operations by --

18 by special units. Small special units, yeah.

19 Q. What types of operations are you talking about?

20 A. Covert operations that normally took place at night. That was the

21 reason also that probably he was very surprised to -- to see us at that

22 moment. It had a reason, because we were stopped first on that day by the

23 check-point, and after complaining by the officials we got approval to --

24 later on to go downtown.

25 Q. So you weren't supposed to be there.

Page 21072

1 A. Exactly. And -- and the information we got is that they normally

2 operated in darkness, and after, let's say, the daylight hours.

3 Q. I want to just be clear. What sort of operation are we talking

4 about? You say they operated in darkness. What sort of operation?

5 A. We are talking about intimidation and ethnic cleansing.

6 Q. All right. The next document I want to take you to is 3085. This

7 will be a brief one, because now it's the 1st of July, sort of the first

8 full day after the attack. And what was the situation in respect of your

9 access or freedom of movement into Mostar, then, on this day?

10 A. Well, from -- from the 30th of June on we were not able to -- to

11 enter Mostar any more.

12 Q. Then on page 2 of this report, 3085, it appears that you tried to

13 arrange a meeting with Mr. Stojic, but you did not succeed to do that.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is 3172. Now, is this one of your

16 reports, Colonel, from the 4th of July, 1993?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. ECMM M2 report?

19 A. Yep.

20 Q. All right. And on this day, I want to direct you particularly

21 now, on page 2, item 4, on the humanitarian activity. Given the fact that

22 now you couldn't get access into Mostar, did you direct your attention and

23 your activities in other areas, places where you could go?

24 A. Yeah. That -- that's correct.

25 Q. All right. Now, there's a reference in this section to a refugee

Page 21073

1 camp in Capljina. Do you see that?

2 A. Yep.

3 Q. What do you recall about this trip to the refugee camp in

4 Capljina?

5 A. What I recall is that the people who were involved in preparing

6 refugees to -- to transport or to send to Germany was -- were German

7 relief helpers. I don't know -- I don't remember from what specific

8 organisation they were, but I remember that they told us about their

9 situation, and the people, the displaced persons and the refugees, were

10 located in train wagons. That is what I remember very well.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Under -- under bad conditions, by the way.

13 Q. And you were informed that these -- first of all, were these

14 Muslim refugees or a different group?

15 A. I'm sorry?

16 Q. Were these Muslim refugees or were they of a different group?

17 A. Muslim. I think that most of them were Muslim refugees, yeah.

18 Q. And there's a reference here to their being threatened almost

19 every night by MP?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. And turning the page, on the top part, so the of some complaints

22 or some frustration perhaps about the international agencies now not

23 having any freedom of movement. Was that the case? Was it frustrating to

24 be there now without access to --

25 A. Yeah, definitely, because there was a lot going on. The situation

Page 21074

1 was more tense than it was before, of course. There was a reaction on the

2 west side, and we couldn't go there to monitor. So that was, of course, a

3 kind of frustration.

4 Q. And there's a reference here to your inability to actually make

5 contact now with any of the HVO people that you used to talk to.

6 A. Definitely. So it was -- it had to do with our overall freedom of

7 movement to go from west to the east bank as we usually did.

8 Q. Okay. And finally toward the bottom there is a reference to

9 "Muslim refugees systematically threatened in some communities of

10 southern area of responsibility." Do you see that?

11 A. Yep.

12 Q. Okay. Do you recall about that, the situation with Muslims in --

13 in places like Capljina now after the attack?

14 A. Yeah. That is related to that visit, of course.

15 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit P 3184. Is this one of your reports,

16 lieutenant -- Colonel, pardon me, dated the 5th of July, which is now the

17 next day, the following day?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And this memorandum, this report describes a meeting that you had

20 in the evening with Bruno Stojic finally.

21 A. Yep.

22 Q. So you did in fact -- or you did succeed to have a meeting with

23 him to discuss the situation?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Now, I don't intend to go through all of these points with you.

Page 21075

1 You appear to have divided your report up into his treatment of political

2 activity, which is in number 2 --

3 A. Mm-hmm.

4 Q. -- and then secondly military activity on the following page,

5 which is in paragraph 3. Do you see that?

6 A. Yep.

7 Q. Now -- and he gave you information, again on page 1, concerning

8 the political situation, about negotiations, his view that the time had

9 been lost in negotiations and he goes on really about the situation and

10 it's there for everyone to read. And he's complaining about or suggesting

11 that the Spanish Battalion was providing arms to the armija, or that at

12 least armija were in possession of arms from Spanish Battalion. And then

13 ending with: "The limited freedom of movement in the combat zone is only

14 necessary for the safety of international agencies, and that's not going

15 to change."

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. All right. So did you have -- well, on the freedom of movement,

19 did you raise this with him about trying to restore your freedom of

20 movement within Mostar?

21 A. Yeah, for sure we did, but the problem here was they closed the

22 road for us, and they justified that -- and he did it as well, and we do

23 that because for your own safety. It's for your own safety that we don't

24 let you go downtown Mostar. Well, it had nothing to do with our own

25 safety because we were responsible, according to the ECMM instructions,

Page 21076

1 for our own safety, and that's why we had an armoured car, and we were

2 able to visit under difficult circumstances and dangerous circumstances

3 the west and the east bank before.

4 Q. Okay. And then continuing on, he's describing various points on

5 the military side in paragraph 3 that the HVO barracks had been conquered.

6 It's not reconquered by the HVO because it is not of special operational

7 interest. And again he continues, bottom of the page about exact

8 information that the armija wants to attack certain areas which continue,

9 and he continues to describe what he believes are objectives of the

10 armija.

11 You know, taking all this together, both the political and the

12 military information that he's providing and discussing with you, did it

13 appear to you that Mr. Stojic was well-informed or not well-informed of

14 the situation, at least, in the immediate Mostar area?

15 A. I think that he was well-informed.

16 Q. Continuing down, item 4 relates to humanitarian activity. And you

17 say here you've got a reliable source, it's unconfirmed, but again your

18 interpreter has -- has said that between the 30th of June and now about

19 5.000 Muslim men were arrested on the west bank and transported to the

20 barracks near the Heliodrom. And then there's another statement here

21 attributed to your interpreter that at the same time about 400 Muslim

22 families, without men, were expelled from the west to the east bank. Do

23 you see that?

24 A. Yep.

25 Q. Can you comment with -- did you observe whether there was any, and

Page 21077

1 maybe you can't because you weren't in Mostar, the general effect of the

2 armija offensive on the humanitarian situation for Muslims in Mostar?

3 A. Well, as I said, in the beginning it -- it seemed to be -- to give

4 some relief about the very bad operation, and -- but at the same time,

5 after -- after the attack it became more tense because there was more

6 fighting continuing from both sides, and it affected actually the whole

7 environment.

8 Q. What was your impression --

9 A. By the way, on both sides.

10 Q. All right. I'm going to move on, then, to the next exhibit, which

11 is P 3181, which actually goes back. You have to go back to that one.

12 Now, this report, your report that we just finished talking about is dated

13 July 5th.

14 A. Mm-hmm.

15 Q. Now, this document, 3184 [sic], first of all, have you ever seen

16 this before other than when I showed it to you the other day?

17 A. Are you talking about 3181?

18 Q. 3181, yes, I'm sorry.

19 A. Yes, but you said 3184.

20 Q. I apologise.

21 A. 3181, I never saw before, no.

22 Q. Starting on the third page and working forward, first of all,

23 what's the date of this document?

24 A. The date is the 5th of July, 1993.

25 Q. So it's the same date as your report talking about expulsion?

Page 21078

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, the third page originating from the Zahum local commune

3 government commissioner contains a list of families whose members are in

4 balija units. Do you see that?

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. Do you know what balija -- does that word mean anything to you?

7 A. No, it doesn't.

8 Q. Okay. Then there's a list of names continuing down, and then a

9 remark that the Kavazbasic street has not been cleansed of Muslims.

10 Another remark about balijas hiding in a garage. And then finally a raid

11 in the evening or raid in the evening, signed by this government

12 commissioner. You see that?

13 A. Yep.

14 Q. And then the immediate preceding page, and this is dated 5th of

15 July, this is from the president of the Mostar municipality of the HVO

16 government, a Dr. Stojan Vrlic -- Vrlic. He appears to be transmitting

17 this list to Chief Bruno Stojic personally. Do you see that?

18 A. Yep.

19 Q. Subject being families of members of balija units. We are sending

20 you enclosed the list of families from the Zahum local commune whose

21 members are in balija units. Okay?

22 A. Yep.

23 Q. And then finally on the top a sheet indicating the subject is

24 notification from the Mostar municipality HVO government relating to

25 families of members of balija. And the translation indicates that's a

Page 21079

1 derogatory term for Muslim units. You see that?

2 A. Okay. Yeah.

3 Q. Now, my question to you is this: In that this appears to relate

4 to cleansing of Muslims, raiding Muslims in the evening and identifying

5 their locations, is this consistent with ultimately the views you reached

6 about the level of involvement of the HVO organisation in this eviction of

7 Muslims?

8 A. Yes, indeed it is.

9 Q. Is this consistent with the statements made to you by Mr. Stojic

10 and the others that in fact it was an activity that was just being carried

11 out by criminals?

12 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, this is entirely speculative. This

13 witness has never seen the document before. He has no idea of the

14 accuracy of its content or what it concerns or anything else. He even was

15 not -- says he's not familiar with the term balija. So for Mr. Scott to

16 construct -- for Mr. Stringer to construct this elaborate speculative

17 theory based on this document is entirely improper and argumentative, and

18 I think Mr. Stringer is aware of that.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I may respond, it's a practice

20 that the Trial Chamber has approved and I think has approved numerous

21 times. It's not been represented that the witness originated this

22 document or that he saw it before, but he's clearly entitled to comment on

23 it, particularly in light of the testimony he's given about his own

24 meetings with Mr. Stojic.

25 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, the question was whether it was

Page 21080

1 consistent with the activity being carried out by criminals. He has no

2 way of knowing, based on this document, whether the activity was carried

3 out by criminals or anybody else. That's the point.

4 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I've heard this differently, Mr. Murphy. I've

5 heard the question saying is it consistent with what has been alleged with

6 regard to criminals. So someone else has said so according to the

7 Prosecutor. I did not hear the Prosecutor actually affirm that actions

8 had been carried out by criminals.

9 MR. MURPHY: That's exactly right, Your Honour, but the point is

10 he's obviously trying to establish by this that -- that what he was told

11 or says he was told by Mr. Stojic was inaccurate, and this document

12 provides no basis for that. Your Honour is entirely right, but I think my

13 point stands.

14 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I would agree it is for the Chamber to evaluate

15 whether it is a contrast or not.

16 MR. MURPHY: Your Honour, yes, it is for the Chamber to evaluate.

17 My concern is we have really sat here this afternoon and had, I say with

18 great respect, pretty much nothing from this witness except speculation

19 and hearsay. And it really is reaching the point -- I know these things

20 are technically -- hearsay is technically admissible in this Tribunal but

21 it reaches a point really where it becomes an abuse of process to allow a

22 witness sit here for hours and simply speculate without factual

23 background. So I draw that to the Trial Chamber's attention.

24 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. President, the witness has been spending

25 the last two and a half hours commenting on reports he made at the time of

Page 21081

1 the events. He's available for cross-examination on the very points he

2 has written in the reports that he wrote at the time of the events in

3 question. Moreover, he's testified before this Trial Chamber about

4 specific meetings he's had with Mr. Murphy's client and the statements

5 made to the witness by the client. So I dare say that is a far cry from

6 hearsay and speculation.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, it's a point of clarification, Your Honours,

9 and it has to do with the translation of this particular document. Where

10 it says "balija" throughout the document, it's in quotation marks. We

11 have it italicised here, but it's in quotation marks. And also -- and it

12 could be that's because that was the name of the unit or that's what the

13 unit called themselves.

14 And also, on the third page, Your Honours, and I believe you may

15 recall, this was before Mr. Stringer came into the picture, there was some

16 commenting about a unit called Balija, but on page 3 where under remarks

17 it says number 1, "Cleansed of Muslims," again on the translation in the

18 original language is cleansed of "balijas." So I mention that -- it's in

19 the original. I mention that because Mr. Stringer obviously knows what

20 the term means and the translator has pointed out that this is a

21 derogatory term, but it may be that Mr. Stringer is -- is mistaken at

22 least because of the quotation marks and the prior testimony we have

23 heard, but that is something of course we would need to clarify at some

24 point, but I raise that as a point of clarification.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes.

Page 21082

1 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I would like to say the

2 following: Today the witness, when mentioning the context, did not

3 specify the names of the streets or the persons involved when he describes

4 events at night, but what he kept stressing and what the Prosecutor

5 obtained from him in his replies was that these were families and

6 civilians. When one looks at these documents carefully, one can see that

7 only male names are listed. Along the names positions in the army of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina are mentioned. And the last one under number 7 is

9 a female name, and only the place where that person can be found is

10 mentioned.

11 And furthermore, when raids are mentioned in the last two points,

12 it is stated very clearly that the raid was exclusively on a garage or a

13 shelter where they would be hiding. The witness mentioned neither

14 shelters nor raids nor garages so it might be a good idea for the

15 Prosecutor to ask him whether he knows where these streets are, whether he

16 has heard of the garage and the shelter and where they are in Mostar, and

17 then we will know whether the witness can speak about this document or

18 not. And it is my opinion that he can't.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly. Could

20 the Prosecutor show us the first page of this document. He has shown the

21 witness the document and the witness has said he has never seen the

22 document. So it might be interesting to ask what this first page means,

23 especially in view of the fact that twice the Prosecutor asked whether the

24 document was dated the 12th of July, so that might be interesting to

25 check. And it's especially interesting to see the front page, because I

Page 21083

1 think it's important to ask the witness whether he knows what the front

2 page means. The front page means that this is a file held by the Security

3 Information Service which was checking this information. It's the cover

4 of the file in fact. So it might be good to start from the first page,

5 the front page rather than the third page, because this is causing

6 confusion.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the document that has

8 been submitted to you by the Prosecution is a letter sent by the president

9 of the municipality of Mostar, Dr. Stojan Vrlic, addressed apparently to

10 Mr. Stojic personally. This document is dated the 5th of July, 1993. It

11 was received, according to the stamp, on the 12th of July, 1993, by the

12 defence department. Apparently the document arrived at the offices of the

13 defence department. And on the first page the title is: "Families whose

14 members are in balija units." And it is indicated, "We are sending the

15 list of families from Zahum, families whose members are in balija units."

16 We have a list of seven names among which 4, 5, 6 and 7 are apparently

17 members of the ABiH, mainly members of the police, either the MUP,

18 Ministry of the Interior, or -- or other members, other units of the BH,

19 as well as, well, number 6 there is nothing specified. As for 1, 2, and

20 3, we don't have any idea who those people are. There are addresses as

21 well, numbers that would seem to correspond to those places where those

22 people lived.

23 Now, when you had a conversation either with your interpreter or

24 people whom you met in the street or the various people with whom you had

25 discussions, did you find out that members of the ABiH might have been

Page 21084

1 expelled or evicted from their apartments? Because that is what seems to

2 be alleged by this document.

3 THE WITNESS: Do you mean one of the seven members?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, not specifically these

5 seven people whom you don't know, but were you told that in general

6 members of the ABiH were evicted from their apartments?

7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That -- that was told before. But as I

8 explained, it happened at night. So we never had proof of that operating

9 by daytime in Mostar downtown.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, the content of that

11 document, does it confirm what you had learned from your sources, or does

12 this document, according to you, is it inconsistent or does it not have

13 any substance?

14 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it could be that it makes clear that

15 it happened.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Well, let's move on.

17 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. And just for clarification about what happened, again you

19 mentioned the night-time being the time -- going back to the list itself,

20 at the bottom it's indicated, "raid in the evening". Do you see that?

21 Under remark number 2, "raid in the evening". Colonel, I'm sorry, I'm

22 asking you.

23 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah.

24 Q. "Raid in the evening", is that consistent with --

25 A. Well, that means --

Page 21085

1 Q. Raid in the evening, is that consistent with the information that

2 you had been obtaining, that was coming to you previously?

3 A. Yeah. Raid in the evening could -- could mean an operation by

4 night, yeah, or in the evening. Correct.

5 Q. All right. And then remark number 1 about a particular street

6 that has not been cleansed of Muslims. Again, is that consistent with

7 what you were hearing previously about these sorts of activities?

8 A. Could be, yes.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, that's the part where I indicated that under

10 the original language, it's "balijas," and there maybe a vast difference

11 if we're talking about a unit with that name.

12 MR. STRINGER: I mean, the translation I've got doesn't even use

13 the word "balija" in that part.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I've indicated to Mr. Stringer, out of profession

15 courtesy, to look at his original document. We have looked at it. Now

16 it's obvious you don't need to be a B/C/S speaker, and I'm just shocked

17 that he's applying these sorts of tactics.

18 MR. STRINGER: I don't understand the point, Mr. President. I've

19 got a translation in front of me. That's all I can work with. I don't

20 think any of us who aren't native speakers of the original language are in

21 a position to sort this out now.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Kovacic. He may be

23 able to enlighten us.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I thought that I could be of

25 assistance. We had this same discussion, and it was on the 17th of April.

Page 21086

1 We had that same document and had this discussion. Now you have to look

2 at the original document. Quite obviously, it is the name of a unit and

3 that is something we've been claiming from day one and that is clear to

4 all of us and it is in that context that you must interpret the document.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Defence counsel says

6 that in fact the reference here is to units, and the Prosecution maintains

7 that the term means Muslim. Well, it will be up to the Trial Chamber to

8 decide. Please pursue.

9 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

10 Q. I think we can move from this document now, Colonel, and I'm going

11 to direct you now to Exhibit 3369. I have only two more to go,

12 Mr. President. So we'll be able to finish with no difficulty.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak.

14 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by way of

15 clarification, when the word "balija" is written with a small letter, then

16 sometimes it is a derogatory term for Muslims, but in the Croatian

17 language when you place a capital letter for Balija, then it is the name

18 of a unit. So those are the differences. And they're quite clear.

19 They're grammatical ones and quite clearly interpreted.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I have the B/C/S version. We can put it on the

21 ELMO so we can all see it. Otherwise, we can tender this at some point.

22 But we expect the Prosecution to -- you know, to look at these matters and

23 to correct them if they're not corrected. And -- but it's right here.

24 It's very obvious. You can see it with the naked eye. You don't need to

25 be a B/C/S speaker.

Page 21087

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President -- I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Stringer, Mr. Praljak

3 has distinguished between balija with a "B" that is not a capital letter

4 and balija with a capital "B", which would mean that it's a unit, capital

5 "B" and quotation marks. So that's what Mr. Praljak says. So -- well,

6 perhaps you can look into it further, explore the issue.

7 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. We will look into it. I note

8 that the document refers several times to units in the plural, and I think

9 it's unlikely that you'd have multiple units given the same name, but

10 again, none of us can sort it out at this point, and I am in a position to

11 complete my direct examination today if we can -- if we can move beyond

12 this now.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I would prefer putting this on the ELMO, because

14 again I hear Mr. Stringer saying two different things. Maybe he should

15 ask the gentleman if he had heard of this particular unit. But it's

16 crystal clear. Let's put it on the ELMO and let's get this over with.

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could I suggest at that counsel can

18 do that during his cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, during the

20 cross-examination. Mr. Stringer, go ahead.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Colonel, now I wanted to refer you to Exhibit P 3369. Do you have

23 that one?

24 A. Yep.

25 Q. Okay. And this is -- is this your report dated the 10th of July,

Page 21088

1 1993?

2 A. It is.

3 Q. Okay. Just two points on this. On the bottom -- toward the

4 bottom of page 1, in point number 6, you reference a visit with or to the

5 Spanish Battalion the previous day, and you're writing information that

6 you obtained during the course of that visit. Do you see that?

7 A. Yep.

8 Q. Okay. There's a reference to Muslim males between the ages of 17

9 and 70 years old living in the area of Mostar and beyond border with

10 Croatia that have been arrested. Most of them are in the Heliodrom.

11 About 5 to 6.000. Do you see that?

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. Okay. That's information that you received from the

14 Spanish Battalion on this day?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Okay. And that number of 5.000 Muslim men arrested, is that

17 consistent with the figure that was given to you previously by your

18 interpreter, that was contained in the other report?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And this refers to cleansing done in Dubrava, Stolac, Capljina,

21 those areas; correct?

22 A. Yep.

23 Q. Now were those areas outside of your responsibility?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. So you don't have personal knowledge about that?

Page 21089

1 A. No.

2 Q. There's also -- you're reporting here that the HVO was divided

3 politically into hard and soft liners. Again this was information

4 provided to you by the Spanish Battalion; correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. I just wanted to make what clear. Do you necessarily share the

7 assessment of the Spanish Battalion on this?

8 A. I do for Mr. Stojic, Maric, and I did agree with Puljic, because

9 according to our observations and -- and -- the times that we talked to

10 him, he belongs in the upper part.

11 Q. With the Hawks.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. And then just for the record, the others that you have not

14 commented on are ones that you don't have an opinion on?

15 A. Exactly.

16 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is --

17 A. By the way, may I explain this? In --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, in this document you

19 distinguish between the Hawks and the Doves. Apparently among the Hawks

20 were Mr. Stojic, Mr. Maric, Mr. Tomic, and Mr. Lasic, and then among the

21 Doves would be Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Obradovic, and Mr. Puljic. Very well.

22 But this difference that you mention, in fact it was something that was

23 told to you by the Spanish Battalion. You didn't come to this distinction

24 yourself.

25 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour, but I just wanted to

Page 21090

1 explain and that was the question by Mr. Stringer, that I -- when I --

2 when I would -- would put these gentlemen under whatever name, Hawks means

3 in my interpretation nationalists. Okay? Strong nationalist. That is my

4 interpretation of this when you ask me do you agree with this, this list.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Doves in English would

6 then -- are not nationalists?

7 THE WITNESS: Not that strong. And I mean showing that to us in

8 the conversations we had with them prior.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Stringer.


11 Q. And just to clarify again because -- are there some people on that

12 list that you don't -- you don't have an opinion because you didn't have

13 sufficient contact to form an opinion?

14 A. That's correct. The people I didn't mention I don't have an

15 opinion about.

16 Q. Okay. And just so the record's clear on that, I want to see if I

17 can -- Stojic you had an opinion.

18 A. Stanko Maric; correct.

19 Q. And the opinion on those two is?

20 A. Strong nationalists.

21 Q. Tomic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No opinion. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Lasic?

Page 21091

1 A. No opinion.

2 Q. No opinion. Petkovic?

3 A. No opinion.

4 Q. Did you have really any dealings with General Petkovic --

5 A. No.

6 Q. -- during that time? Obradovic?

7 A. Also not in our area, as you see, so no opinion about him.

8 Q. Okay. And then finally Zlatko Puljic, who you've testified about.

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And what was your opinion there?

11 A. I should name him as well a strong nationalist.

12 Q. Okay. Now, the next exhibit, which is the final exhibit,

13 Mr. President, is Exhibit 3900.

14 And I should -- I should interject here. We're moving forward to

15 the 2nd of August from the 10th of July, 1993, and during a period of

16 about two weeks in the middle there did you actually leave Mostar and go

17 on -- get a break outside the region?

18 A. Yeah. I had a very short leave.

19 Q. Okay. And did you then return from your break around the 3rd of

20 July?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And by the end of July had freedom of movement and access to

23 Mostar for you and ECMM been restored, or was it still barred, the access?

24 A. It still -- there was still no -- no freedom of movement for ECMM.

25 Q. Okay. So with that as the background, this document 3900, dated

Page 21092

1 the 2nd of August, 1993, do you recognise that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. What is this?

4 A. That is report made by the head of the coordination centre,

5 Sir Martin Garrod.

6 Q. Okay. The head of the Mostar coordination centre?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir Martin Garrod. So he was your supervisor or superior at this

9 time?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Okay. Who made this memorandum?

12 A. He, on his personal title.

13 Q. All right. And this is a memorandum about a meeting that was held

14 with Jadranko Prlic on the 2nd of August; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Were you present at that meeting?

17 A. I was team member and present at that meeting, yes.

18 Q. And have you had a chance now to review this memorandum prior to

19 your testimony today?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And even though it's not written by you, would you characterise it

22 as -- as accurate, or would you agree with the statements that are

23 contained in it?

24 A. It is accurate, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Just a couple questions about this. First of all, going

Page 21093

1 into this meeting with Dr. Prlic, you indicated earlier you made a list of

2 questions or would make a list of questions. Do you recall what were the

3 objectives or the topics that you and Sir Garrod wanted to discuss with

4 Dr. Prlic at this meeting?

5 A. We had a list with some more topics focused on -- on our work as

6 team member, but as you see here, Sir Martin Garrod focused on the most

7 important thing at that moment. That was, of course, getting back freedom

8 of movement and get -- and make it possible that we can do our work

9 downtown Mostar.

10 Q. Okay. So jumping ahead to page 2, item (f), there is a reference

11 there as to the freedom of movement question. Do you see that?

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. That was one of the items that you wanted to discuss with him.

14 A. Yep.

15 Q. Do you know why it was arranged to have a meeting with Dr. Prlic

16 to discuss freedom of movement? Were you involved in arranging or

17 organising the meeting at all?

18 A. We did by the HVO officials, yeah, but we only could do that by

19 telephone, of course.

20 Q. Okay. Now, on the first page of this it's reporting a lot of

21 things said by Mr. Prlic, Dr. Prlic, about events happening in other

22 areas. I'll direct you to section (b) about Croats driven away from

23 Bugojno, places Kakanj, Gornji Vakuf. Do you see that?

24 A. Yep.

25 Q. Skipping down, there was -- I believe, yes, in paragraph (d), an

Page 21094

1 example of the Croats from Vares. So again, all of those places he's

2 talking about the events, were these within your area of responsibility?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Were these developments in areas within the area of

5 responsibility of Sir Garrod?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So is it particularly helpful for you to be discussing the events

8 in -- in these other locations?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection to the form of the question. Whether it

10 was helpful to him or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is that

11 Dr. Prlic is pointing out at this meeting what is happening in

12 Central Bosnia, and this gentleman being an EC monitor should have known

13 about the events, and if he didn't, shame on him. But he was pointing out

14 the events because everything was inter-related, and you have to look at

15 the document in its whole, in its entirety, not cherry-picking as

16 Mr. Stringer is doing.

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, this is for cross-examination or

18 closing argument. This isn't an objection.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.


21 Q. The question is this -- I'll restate it. Discusses of events in

22 Bugojno and elsewhere, was it -- was it helpful to you in gaining what you

23 were seeking, which, again, was freedom of movement through -- in your

24 local area of responsibility?

25 A. It was not.

Page 21095

1 Q. Okay. Now, on the second page there is a discussion in paragraph

2 (e) about whether there would be separate republics, what Dr. Prlic's

3 views were on that, and I just want, again based on your focus of your

4 area of responsibility, there's a statement that's attributed to him in

5 here in which he states: "His first principle was that people should be

6 able to live where they wanted to live and stay where they wished to

7 stay." Do you see that?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Now, my question is whether, based on your experience in Mostar,

10 was that actually taking place?

11 A. No, it was not.

12 Q. Why is that?

13 A. Because this is a statement that was not shared by everyone.

14 Q. Was everybody in Mostar able to live and stay where they wanted?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Moving down to section (g), you then raised, as you've

17 indicated, the question of freedom of movement, and there's discussion

18 about that, and then subsequently in -- at the bottom of the page a

19 reference to possible exchange of prisoners, and then actually that's also

20 referred to in paragraph (h). So those two issues, freedom of movement

21 and possible exchange of prisoners. Do you recall those two topics being

22 discussed here?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. And can you tell us whether there was any resolution or progress

25 made on those points either during the meeting or during your time, your

Page 21096

1 remaining time in Mostar?

2 A. Well, my remaining time in Mostar didn't show freedom of movement,

3 and the exchange of prisoners was an important hot item but not in my time

4 frame. It didn't happen in my time frame.

5 Q. And again just to complete that, he has indicated in paragraph (g)

6 here that freedom of movement relates to the HVO military, and then

7 secondly he's indicated that he would speak to Stojic and Bosic favourably

8 on that period. Do you know whether that ever happened?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Stringer, you

13 finished your examination-in-chief, is that it?

14 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. That's correct.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very good. We resume tomorrow

16 at 2.15. We will resume with the cross-examination, and it will continue

17 until Thursday, because tomorrow is Wednesday.

18 Sir, as you know, you made a solemn declaration at the beginning

19 of your testimony which means that you cannot meet with anyone until

20 tomorrow neither from Prosecution nor from Defence. I wanted to say this.

21 So we'll meet again tomorrow at 2.15 in this courtroom.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day

24 of July, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.