Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23504

1 Wednesday, 10 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the case,

7 please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

9 everyone in the court. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

10 versus Prlic et al.

11 Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

13 Today we are Wednesday. I'd like to greet Mr. Scott, Defence

14 counsel, the accused, as well as all the people present in the courtroom.

15 We shall resume the cross-examination of the witness.

16 Prior to that, I will give the floor to the registrar who has a

17 few IC numbers to give us.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 The OTP has submitted its response to Exhibits tendered by accused

20 Praljak for Witness DW. This list submitted by OTP shall be given Exhibit

21 number IC 689.

22 Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. As far as time

24 allocation is concerned, for Defence counsel, Mr. Prlic has an hour with

25 an additional 30 minutes which was given to him by Mr. Pusic, which

Page 23505

1 amounts to 1 hour and 30 minutes. So far 47 minutes have already been

2 taken up, unless somebody has given him more time. But for the time

3 being, it is an hour and a half. Is that correct, Mr. Karnavas?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: No, it is not, Mr. President. I believe the Pusic

5 time has been given to Ms. Senka Nozica. I have, as I indicated to the

6 registrar, I have a half an hour from the Petkovic team, a half an hour

7 from the Praljak team, and I understand approximately 15 minutes from the

8 Coric team. So I anticipate spending the rest of the first session on my

9 feet doing cross-examination of this witness.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. You may

11 proceed.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. Good morning, everyone in and around

13 the court.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, sir.

18 A. Good morning.

19 Q. Let's pick up where we left off yesterday; and I believe, at the

20 end of the day, we were talking about non-residential accounts. You had

21 confirmed to us that there was nothing illegal or nefarious about having

22 such accounts, and so I want to just go through a couple more documents to

23 close this chapter. We'll see perhaps how these residential accounts were

24 used in some ways, these non-residential accounts. If we can look at 1D

25 01763, 1763. It should be in your packet, and this is dated November 9,

Page 23506

1 1992.

2 We see that it's a letter from the public company for production,

3 transmission, and distribution of electric power, Elektroprivreda. Have

4 you found it, sir?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: May we have some assistance.

6 Q. You're going to have to work with me, sir, because I have a

7 limited amount of time?

8 A. [In English] Okay. Okay.

9 Q. All right. So let's get with it. Now, if we look at this

10 document - please look at it for a second - you'll see that it was

11 generated from Sarajevo from the director general of the Elektroprivreda

12 company. And in the subject, it says, "Provision of means in foreign

13 currency." Do you see that, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. If we just -- and I'm just going to walk you through

16 parts of it. I just want you to confirm this. You may not have personal

17 knowledge, but this is part of the process.

18 On the very first sentence, it starts with: "As you already know,

19 a certain time ago the business premises of Elektroprivreda BiH public

20 company was completely burned down as a consequence of wartime activities

21 of the aggressors."

22 I take it when they're speaking of the aggressors at this point in

23 time, in 1992, November 9, in Sarajevo, they must be speaking about what

24 was commonly referred to back then - not that I subscribe to the term -

25 but what some people call the Chetniks or the Serb forces or the former

Page 23507

1 JNA. Is that what we're talking about when we say "aggressors" here?

2 A. Yes, precisely, all of them.

3 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to the second paragraph, it talks and says:

4 "With the aim of regaining control over electro-energetic system and

5 creating of better performance conditions, Elektroprivreda BiH decided to

6 procure four satellite telephones," and then later on you'll see, in the

7 same paragraph, that they're going to be procured from a company called

8 Hetring, and the amount is approximately $239.000 US.

9 Do you see that, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then if we go into the next paragraph, it talks about: "Since

12 the electric power is delivered abroad by Elektroprivreda ... only to

13 Croatia, we do not possess convertible currency."

14 Now, I take it one of the reasons there is no convertible currency

15 is because at this point in time, as you had indicated yesterday, the

16 central bank was not functioning and the banking system was not

17 functioning in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And then it goes on to say, in the next paragraph: "With the aim

20 of solving this problem," that is, the procurement of foreign currency for

21 satellite telephones," we propose that these means from the foreign

22 currency account of the Armed Forces of the Republic of BiH are paid to

23 our account, and that Elektroprivreda of BiH for that purpose puts at

24 disposal of the Armed Forces of BiH its claim from the Republic of Croatia

25 in Croatian dinars at the official exchange rate."

Page 23508

1 Let's park here a little bit. They're talking about a foreign

2 currency account of the armed forces of BiH. So, obviously, it would

3 appear, at least, whoever is generating this document, which happens to be

4 the general director -- the director general of Elektroprivreda, he's

5 aware of a foreign currency account of the forces of BiH.

6 Where would that be? Would you know? Would that be in Sarajevo

7 or would that be outside in some other -- in some non-residential account,

8 if you know?

9 A. This account or one of the accounts that the BH army had was, for

10 instance, opened in Austria, but probably it had another in Croatia.

11 Q. All right. So, in other words, what you're telling us is that

12 the -- the government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina or its

13 armed forces had -- had accounts outside the country, non-residential

14 accounts as well?

15 A. Correct. Now I have to go back, with your permission, to my case

16 where we were accused of illegally spending resources from the Republic of

17 Croatia. As you saw in the balance sheet, final balance sheet, every kuna

18 which came from the Republic of Croatia has its written trace, where it

19 was spent; whereas, with the BH army, and we provided this to the

20 Prosecution, Mr. McNair, a list of documents where Mr. Alija Izetbegovic

21 on a piece of paper would write, for instance, give Haris Silajdzic, Hasan

22 Cengic, and others a million dollars, for instance.

23 And with that piece of paper, handwritten, he goes to Vienna and

24 picks up a million dollars without any trace of where he spent it or they

25 spent it.

Page 23509

1 Q. All right. Thank you. Well, I believe that there is some

2 documentation that was provided to the Office of the Prosecution, with

3 respect to those secret bank accounts that Mr. Silajdzic and others had

4 access to, though they chose not to indict those individuals, but that's

5 another story.

6 Let's focus on this. If we look at the next document, 1D 01767,

7 1767, here we see -- if we can find it real quickly. While you're looking

8 for it, it was generated January 26, 1993. It's signed by a Zlatko

9 Lagumdzija. Do you know of this individual? Do you know of him?

10 A. I don't know him personally, but I do know that he was president

11 of the SDP of BH.

12 Q. And here he signed this document as vice-president of the

13 government of RBiH, January 26, 1993, and here we have a decision on

14 opening of non-residential dinar and foreign currency account in the

15 Republic of Croatia. Do you see that, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And, again, this document would confirm, would it not, that

18 non-residential accounts are being opened by the government of BiH?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And if we look at III, it says: "The accounts that are not opened

21 in the Republic of Croatia, in line with the provisions of this Decision,

22 shall not be considered to be the accounts of the Republic of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina."

24 Now, I don't know how it's -- how you read it, but correct me if

25 I'm wrong or assist us. Would this imply, if I read it correctly, that

Page 23510

1 through this decision, they're designating a non-residential account for

2 the Republic of BiH, but they're not excluding the opening of

3 non-residential accounts for others; but simply that, unless the account

4 is opened pursuant to this particular decision, it cannot be considered,

5 one, to be that of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Am I correct

6 in reading it?

7 A. Partially, but it means that they had opened accounts beforehand,

8 previously, and they were forced to align those accounts with the decision

9 to make them valid.

10 Q. All right. Now, one last document, and this is P 00985. This is

11 a Prosecution document. I think you might have it. You should have it in

12 your bundle. No, you don't.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I need the assistance of the usher.

14 Q. I'm going to give it to you right now.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, this document, incidentally, for the

16 record, came from the Prosecution motion for admission of documentary

17 evidence, dated 20 September 2007, to which the Defence has been granted

18 leave to file its response, I believe it's 18 November 2007 -- October,

19 I'm sorry, 18 October 2007. So that's where this document came.

20 It hasn't been translated by the Prosecution. We translated the

21 first -- the first page, and it might be of some assistance.

22 Q. If you could just look at that, it's dated 1 October 2003. It's

23 from the Privredna Bank Zagreb.

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And I just want to read part of this and it's been highlighted for

Page 23511

1 you, the section that I want to look at it. I want to go on the record,

2 read it, and maybe you can help had us out here.

3 It says here: "Subject: Response to the decision, operational

4 number XXXKIR 3077/03.

5 "Having inspected and analysed the contents of decisions, taking

6 into consideration the legal regulations, we respond as follows: From the

7 request, one can conclude that the interest is directed to persons related

8 to activities of Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, which we were given

9 non-residential accounts in the Republic of Croatia, in the banks

10 authorised for affairs with foreign countries, in their field offices most

11 suitable and closest to BiH borders.

12 "The basis for opening those accounts was the agreement of

13 payments between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina signed on 19th of March, 1992, as well as the instruction of

15 MFRH," that must be Ministry of Finance Republic of Croatia, "dated 5th of

16 May, 1992, that explained to the banks the way of running business with

17 BiH, and that requested immediate activities in order to reduce the

18 consequences of payment circulation, suspension, and other communications

19 caused by war in this area."

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm told that what is on the e-court right now is

21 not the one that's been translated.

22 Q. Now, having looked at this, can you comment at all? What exactly

23 are we learning from this particular document dated 2003?

24 A. From this, we can conclude that the investigating judge

25 established that everything had been done contrary [as interpreted] to the

Page 23512

1 law, referring to agreements between the Republic of Croatia and

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 19th of March, 1992, and the guidelines from

3 the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of Croatia.

4 Q. Okay. Now, in the translation, it says "contrary to the law."

5 That would mean against the law, or is it in accordance with the law?

6 A. A crime.

7 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let me go back and look at this document

8 again. According to the transcript, it says here that what you're saying

9 is that this was a crime. A crime was being -- this document shows that a

10 crime was being committed. My reading of it is that everything is done

11 consistent with agreements between the Republic of Croatia and

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse me, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 MR. SCOTT: I apologise for interrupting.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Mr. Scott, please.

17 MR. SCOTT: I realise that counsel has indicated that this --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Mr. Scott, please.

19 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, I thought it was on. My apologise. Your

20 Honour. I understand that Mr. Karnavas says this document has come from

21 the Prosecution, and it's not fully translated. Be that as it may, we're

22 at a complete loss to be able to follow this testimony and be able to look

23 at the document. We have nothing in front of us which allows us to follow

24 this testimony or to study the document, and it's impossible.

25 And given the dispute that's going on with the which is now, it's

Page 23513

1 impossible for us to know what's happening.

2 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise to my

3 colleague Mr. Karnavas. But as we can follow better whether the

4 interpretation was correct, I'd like to say that in line 8 -- line 17,

5 "contrary" is not the proper interpretation of what the witness said. He

6 said it was "in keeping with" and not "contrary."

7 So it's "in keeping with," and that Mr. Karnavas' attempt to put

8 that right was fully in order. He thought he was being asked about crime.

9 Anyway, there was may have understanding between Mr. Karnavas and the

10 witness.

11 Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I was trying to say,

13 that there was a misinterpretation. So it is confirmation that everything

14 is done in keeping with the agreement and with the guidelines issued by

15 the Ministry of Finance. So there was absolutely nothing wrong there.

16 Had there been any other acts contrary to anything like this, then that

17 would probably be a criminal act.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes, she apologises, but she

19 heard "suprotno" and not "sukladno," and that's where the mistake came

20 from. Thank you.

21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I appreciate the

22 clarification from Ms. Alaburic, but our point remains the same. We just

23 simply have no ability to follow this testimony without having the

24 translation of the document. I don't know the entire context of what's

25 been said. I can't follow the testimony, and it would be helpful if we

Page 23514

1 would have that.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could be of assistance, that's all I needed to

3 get out of the document. Secondly, Mr. President, we expect that this

4 entire document will be translated. We also expect that we will be

5 answering to this document when we make our submissions on 18 October

6 2007, because, as I noted, this came from the Prosecution motion for

7 admission of documentary evidence, which also begs the question that

8 should be asked perhaps by the Trial Chamber to the Prosecution, how dare

9 they submit documents of which they don't even know what's inside and

10 attempt to get them in before the Trial Chamber for this Court's

11 consideration.

12 One would assume, with the thousands and thousands and thousands

13 of documents that we have, they would at least do some screening and know

14 which of those documents are necessary and relevant to the case. So,

15 therefore, I must say, with all due respect to my colleague who I know is

16 overburdened, just as I am, that he ought to know what's in his documents

17 and should not leave it up to me, another foreigner, to try to figure out

18 through my staff.

19 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, that's not -- that's not a

20 fair comment, but, as usual, it's the sort of thing that the Prosecution

21 comes to expect from Mr. Karnavas.

22 Of course, we don't contest the document apparently came from a

23 Prosecution bundle. The Chamber well knows the limitations on this

24 institution in terms of translation resources that we all suffer from.

25 The Prosecution had done a partial translation, to date, so far of the

Page 23515

1 parts that we were tendering into evidence. Now, whether the entire

2 document will ultimately translated or not is a separate matter.

3 But that is -- whether that needs to be done is a separate

4 question from when we come into the courtroom with the witness where the

5 exhibit is going to be used in court with the witness, that everyone in

6 the courtroom needs to be able to follow the testimony. It's impossible

7 for the Prosecution to have -- know what's being said without having the

8 document in front of them.

9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, may I raise a point, because

10 Your Honour knows the way we work on the Defence side and we are now faced

11 with the response to this motion involving 539 documents. I'm the very

12 lucky person who has the carriage of the particular drafting of this

13 response. We share up the work.

14 As I go through, if it's being dealt with in this way on the

15 Prosecution's side, with partial translations not identified in the list

16 of 539 documents, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to go to the

17 Croatian version of the document, a language that I frankly don't

18 understand, I can see the scale of the document, and be double-checking

19 all the time to see whether the Prosecution have or haven't arranged a

20 complete translation before they've whacked another 500 plus documents on

21 us, in addition to the thousands we already have.

22 It's just a practical matter, Your Honour. The whole thing is

23 getting completely out of hand. May we know how they propose to deal with

24 that aspect of the matter. I'm sorry for interrupting here, but it's

25 linked to what Mr. Karnavas has been saying and it's linked to the

Page 23516

1 particular practical problem which has arisen at this moment.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: And I should add, Mr. President, in all fairness to

3 the Defence, and perhaps Mr. Scott is unaware of this, we did make a

4 request to the Prosecution to have this document translated. This was

5 done a few days ago, so we did attempt. First of all, they were on notice

6 that this was a document that we intended to use with this witness, or

7 they should have known that.

8 They knew that there was a request by us. They failed to -- to

9 translate it. So now to stand up and to cry a river over how, once again,

10 they're being attacked by this -- this particular Defence attorney, I find

11 it rather charming.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, this document --

13 this document is not contained in the bundle. The document you've just

14 used is seemingly not part of the bundle.

15 When Defence counsel gives us a document or gives us a bundle of

16 documents before the cross-examination, I leaf through all the exhibits to

17 see how you intend to deal with your cross-examination; and if I realise

18 that a translation is missing, then I step in and say that a translation

19 is missing.

20 But in this case, the document you've just used is not a document

21 which I have in my possession. So I could not be aware of the fact that

22 the translation was missing.

23 Now, when there is a translation issue, the Trial Chamber feels

24 the best way of dealing with this is to ask the attorney or Defence

25 counsel to read the text in his or her own native language, and then the

Page 23517

1 interpreters will translate it so that everybody can understand what's

2 being read out.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Mr. President. I should note, and I

4 stand -- you know, I totally accept your comments. As I indicated, we had

5 made the request. The translation wasn't done. We had anticipated the

6 Prosecution to perhaps be able to translate this document on short notice.

7 They were not; hence, my improvisation. But in event, we'll move on. But

8 we will get it translated for everyone's convenience.

9 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to move on to another topic, and this topic

10 deals with municipalities. Okay. It's a general topic, but I'm going to

11 go through various documents from various municipalities. It's only a

12 sampling of various issues, but it's a sampling for the Trial Chamber to

13 understand part of your testimony. Because as I heard you correctly, you

14 indicated that a lot of things were happening at the municipal level and

15 that, in fact, you witnessed folks coming in from the various

16 municipalities.

17 Presidents of the municipalities were coming in and having private

18 conversations with Mr. Mate Boban of which, of course, you were not a

19 participant, but merely you saw them coming, and then they would make some

20 decisions were apparently made. We'll leave it up to the Trial Chamber

21 what to make of that, but --

22 A. I apologise. What you do mean by private conversations?

23 Q. Well, what I mean was that Mr. Boban was having conversations to

24 these individuals; private, in the sense, that you weren't present at the

25 time. These were conversations that he was holding, official

Page 23518

1 conversations; private, in the sense, you were not a participant of.

2 A. Yes, that's the essential point.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. They were official conversations but I wasn't present.

5 Q. Right. Okay.

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, just so the record is clear then, the

7 entire -- the entire content of the witness's evidence on that is he saw

8 people entering and leaving the building, and that's the -- he wasn't in

9 the meetings. He can't say what happened in the meetings. So what the

10 witness has just told us is he saw people coming into the building and

11 going out of the building. That's the only evidence that he's given us.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, you know, I don't want to turn this into a

13 debating society. The gentleman, yesterday, indicated that presidents of

14 municipalities would come and meet with Mate Boban, and then afterwards

15 orders were issued with respect to the distribution of monies. That's

16 what the gentleman indicated.

17 This whole context came when the Prosecutor was trying to impeach

18 the very same witness that he had, even though there were no grounds for

19 it, but he made allegations that the witness was confabulating.

20 Now, this was my -- that little introduction was just a segue into

21 this particular chapter, because I'm dealing with various issues with

22 respect to municipalities, so I was just cuing everybody in.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are quite right,

24 Mr. Karnavas. Put your question.


Page 23519

1 Q. Now, if we look at document 1D 01772, this is a decision from the

2 municipality of Tomislavgrad. 1772. All you've got to do is look at the

3 yellow tab, sir.

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. Okay. You're going to have to work with me quicker. I don't mean

6 to pressure you, but we have limited time here.

7 This is August 20, 1992, and here it says, this is a decision: "I

8 am financing the needs of national defence." And in Article 1, it says:

9 "With the aim of financing the defence in the territory of Tomislavgrad

10 municipality, the contribution for defence shall be introduced."

11 And then, in Article 2, we see that at that talks about citizens

12 who have a salary, a domestic salary; and then, further down, you see that

13 there is a breakdown: Citizens employed abroad have to pay 400 DM per

14 passport. That's for men. Women have to pay a hundred, and then you have

15 citizens employed in Austria. They pay a different amount.

16 You see all of that?

17 A. I see that.

18 Q. Okay. So when you were talking about the municipalities

19 self-financing their -- their defence, this is -- this is a document that

20 assesses to that, is it not?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And if we look at -- if we look at the preamble, we see that it

23 sets out that this is something that is being -- a decision that is being

24 taken by the municipality of Tomislavgrad in accordance with their

25 particular Statute; correct?

Page 23520

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Okay. Now, we'll go on to the next document, and this is

3 1D 01771. 1771. This is May 2, 1992. And if we go to the preamble, we

4 see that it is from the municipality of, or even at the very top, it says

5 "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Assembly of Posusje." My apologies for

6 the pronunciation.

7 We see here this is a decision on obligatory financing of defence;

8 again, another municipality. Article 1, it says: "The obligatory

9 financing of municipality defence is introduced for all citizens from,"

10 and I underscore that word, "from the territory..."

11 And then if you look at II, it talks about citizens "from the

12 territory who are permanently employed abroad."

13 So it seems that citizens from this municipality, as we have seen

14 from Tomislavgrad, who are living abroad still have to make contributions

15 to the war effort; correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if we go to the next document, 1D 01757,

18 1757, that is different kind of a document. We're going to deal with two

19 documents from this particular municipality. This is from Orasje

20 municipality, dated April 21, 1992.

21 Here, in this decision, it says: This is from the War Presidency

22 of this particular municipality, and it's a decision on conversion of, I

23 guess, Yugoslav dinars from the treasury of domestic payment office from

24 Orasje into Croatian dinars.

25 Now, I take it -- and if we look at Article I, it says: "Hereby,

Page 23521

1 the obligation of conversion of Yugoslav dinars from the Treasury of

2 Domestic Payment Agency Office in Orasje into Croatian dinars is

3 introduced."

4 I take it that this was a necessary -- this was necessary in light

5 of what was happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, vis-a-vis the

6 former Yugoslavia.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. All right. Now let's look at the next document, 1758.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, this is just to give the Court a sampling of

12 what's happening at the municipal level because of the concept of

13 self-management, as it will become obvious throughout the course of this

14 trial.

15 Q. This is a document dated September 19, 1992. It's a decision on

16 establishing the right to financial compensation for families of fallen or

17 missing soldiers of 106th HVO Brigade Bosanska Posavina.

18 Now, yesterday, if I heard you correctly, you had indicated that

19 payments about going to families of fallen soldiers. Correct? That was

20 one of the obligations?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Okay. And here is a good example, at least at the municipal

23 level, where the municipality is trying to take care of the families of

24 those who are protecting the homeland, based on the Territorial Defence

25 that existed, at least at that point in time, and this is September 1992;

Page 23522

1 correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. All right. That's -- we'll go on to the next document, and now

4 we're going to talk about Mostar. Two documents. The first one will be

5 1D 01760. 1760.

6 If we look at this, it starts with "Republic of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council,

8 Mostar municipality," dated 25 -- July 25, 1992. This is a decision on

9 "amendment to the decision on introduction of the Croatian dinar as the

10 means of cash payment."

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I just want to give the Trial Chamber an

12 opportunity to see what's happening in various municipalities.

13 Q. Here we see in Article 1 that there is an amendment, and you will

14 awe see the quotation parted, which says: "All participants in cash

15 transactions are obliged to form the prices and state them in Croatian or

16 Yugoslav dinars."

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. So, here, they're given an opportunity -- they're saying that you

19 have to designate two different currencies, one of either; that is,

20 Croatian or Yugoslav dinars.

21 Again, is this the kind of decision that would have been necessary

22 in light of the financial situation - the monetary situation, I should

23 say - in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. All right. So was it -- perhaps you may not be able to answer

Page 23523

1 this question, but this is not an attempt to sort of Croatise - this is

2 the kind of word we've heard bandied about - to Croatise the Mostar

3 municipality by introduced a decision like this, but, rather, this would

4 be a decision necessary, given that you need a currency that's viable in

5 order to do certain transactions on a day-to-day basis?

6 A. There were two reasons for this kind of a decision. The first

7 basic reason was the fact that all trade - well, not all trade, but most

8 of the trade - involved companies from the Republic of Croatia because

9 payments were easier.

10 The second reason is that, in the treasury of Yugoslavia, an

11 enormous amount of Yugoslav dinars stayed behind, and they were brought

12 into the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is to say that the

13 property of Bosnia-Herzegovina was purchased, devalued, and everything

14 else.

15 Q. All right. Okay. Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 1759,

16 1759, again, this is from the -- this is a decision: "Republic of Bosnia

17 and Herzegovina, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence

18 Council, Mostar Municipality," and it's a decision on "war tax for workers

19 for Mostar municipality territory working abroad, and retired persons who

20 went into retirement after working abroad."

21 And here we see, again, this would seem somewhat similar to the

22 other documents from the other municipalities. At least, in Article 2, we

23 see there is a tax, a war tax of 300 DEM. What does "DEM" mean, per

24 month?

25 A. It means 300 German deutschemark.

Page 23524

1 Q. Thank you. I just need it for the record.

2 And then we go into article 4, for instance, and it says: "The

3 war tax shall be paid through transfer accounts," and we see Splitska

4 Banka is one, "or in cash on the counter of the Office for Finances of

5 HVO- Mostar municipality."

6 So, here, it would appear that as of this date, September 16th,

7 they're saying, Here is an account a non-residential account in Splitska

8 Banka, and you can deposit it over there. Correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. That's it for Mostar. If we go on to the next set of documents,

11 the next municipality is going to be Livno, and it's a motley group of

12 decisions that I'm going to go through.

13 We're going to start off with 1D 01761. 1D 01761. Again, it says

14 here, "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatian Community of

15 Herceg-Bosna, Livno municipality HVO," 26 March 1993: "Decision on

16 financing of Livno HVO-sanctioning military conscripts."

17 And if we look at that, we see that, at the very beginning, in

18 Article I, it says: "Military conscripts who are temporarily working

19 abroad with visas obtained before October 1991, and who upon their return

20 to the municipality, their permanent residence, "did not report within

21 eight days to the Livno OHVO Defence office to be mobilised to the Livno

22 HVO units, shall finance the OHVO" the defence of Livno, "by paying 900

23 German marks a month from the moment they failed..."

24 In other words, they are being punished, to some extent, for

25 failing to report to duty. Do you see that?

Page 23525

1 A. I see that.

2 Q. All right. And that's all we need for this document. We'll just

3 move on.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I just want to give the Court again an indication

5 what's happening at the municipal level.

6 Q. The next document is 1D 0308, 308. This is a decision of 2 April

7 1993, and, again, we can see it's the "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

8 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, Livno municipality, Croatian Defence

9 Council." This is a decision on financing of Livno OHVO sanctioning

10 military conscripts.

11 It's somewhat similar to the previous one, and we can -- would you

12 agree, if you just look at Article I, that this is something similar to

13 the first one that we just looked at, the difference being the date and

14 there's some minor differences on who this was forwarded to?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if we go on to the next document, 3 --

17 1D 00307, 307. This is dated 16 April 1993. This is a decision on

18 assignment of financial aid to the Bruno Busic HVO Regiment.

19 And if we look at Article I, it says that "the Bruno Busic HVO

20 Regiment is hereby assigned financial aid in the amount of 1.500.000

21 Croatian dinars."

22 And it says here, in Article II: "The finances office of the

23 municipal HVO shall withdraw cash from the Livno municipal HVO cashier.""

24 Now, from this document, can we conclude that Livno is financing,

25 through this decision, this professional -- this brigade or this regiment?

Page 23526

1 A. Helping.

2 Q. Okay. And this had a professional brigade?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. All right.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to take

6 the floor because this document is quite disturbing. It proves that this

7 Bruno Busic Battalion was funded under municipality decisions, because a

8 certain amount is earmarked for this battalion. We're on the 5th of

9 April, 1993. As far as you know -- I'm not sure you will be able to

10 answer. You might not be the appropriate witness to answer that

11 question. But since you have been in charge of such duties, you may be

12 privy to that.

13 Budget-wise, the funding of a regiment, is it not the role of the

14 Minister of Defence, could you explain that to me, and not the

15 municipality. Could you explain that to me, please?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I corrected the

17 attorney. It is not financing. This is just a one-off thing, assistance.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that it is

19 assistance. It is support. We're not talking about funding, because as a

20 rule in regiments the salaries have to be approved by the Ministry of

21 Defence and go through the Ministry of Defence.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, but there were other

23 expenses involved as well.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So your answer to my

25 question seems to be that, in this case, we're talking about some type of

Page 23527

1 support. Yes, I can see "support" in English. Very well.

2 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.


4 Q. And just to -- so the amount, again, seems rather -- let's see,

5 it's 1.500.000 Croatian dinars. How much is that are we talking in

6 deutschemarks?

7 A. Say between 2 and 3.000 German marks; around 2.000 deutschemark.

8 Q. Okay. That's what it would have been at the time?

9 A. At the time, yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, if we go on to the next document, this is

11 1D 01762, 1762. This is September 24, 1993. This is -- here, we see it's

12 "the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatian Republic of

13 Herceg-Bosna, Municipal HVO Livno." So, here, at this point in time,

14 we're dealing with the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna within the

15 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This is a decision on

16 "professionalisation of the army within the HVO Brigade, Petar Kresimir

17 IV, and defining of adequate salaries." Do you see that?

18 A. I see that.

19 Q. Okay. And if we look at Article II, it says: "The special salary

20 adequate to TIP for members of the professional units of the brigade Petar

21 Kresimir IV HVO Livno is defined, as of September 1, 1993." Can you

22 comment on this? Why was it necessary to have a decision of this nature

23 passed by the Livno municipality on the 24th of September, 1993?

24 A. Well, it's hard now to remember why exactly. Well, quite simply,

25 probably, this had become quite a burden for the municipality, this

Page 23528

1 financing. That could have been one of the reasons. And another reason

2 was that by then the HVO was slowly being established as an army, which, I

3 mean, well, should have as many professional soldiers as possible, and

4 that the Home Guard's part should be reduced.

5 Q. Okay. Now, when you say the "Home Guard," are we talking about

6 based on the Territorial Defence, the concept of All People's Defence and

7 then the Territorial Defence? Is that what you're talking about when you

8 say "Home Guard"?

9 A. In the territory of Herceg-Bosna, we no longer had a Territorial

10 Defence. We had the Domobrani Home Guard. That is a Croatian expression

11 for the same form of unit. Well, I cannot say form of unit but I cannot

12 say people, but same formation.

13 Q. All right. I take it those formations were drawn from the

14 particular municipalities, for the municipalities, by the municipalities?

15 A. Precisely. Like in the former Yugoslavia, there was the

16 Territorial Defence. It was municipal. So the Domobrani regiments, or

17 rather, the Domobrani, the Home Guards were people from the local

18 territory of municipalities.

19 Q. Thank you. If we look at the next document, that's 1D 00297 and

20 this is the last document for Livno. This is October 9 1993. This is the

21 decision on the "amount of compensation, daily allowance for private sent

22 on assignment pursuant to an order issued by the HR HB HVO Main Staff."

23 Here, it says a decision was passed for compensation of 17 deutschemarks

24 per day payable. Do you see that sir?

25 A. I see that.

Page 23529

1 Q. It seems this has to do with the Petar Kresimir IV HVO Brigade.

2 Okay.

3 A. Home Guard unit.

4 Q. Okay. All right. Okay. So now we know what was happening in

5 Livno a little bit.

6 Now I want to focus on a set of documents and -- for the Tuzla

7 municipality for comparison purposes. Obviously, you know what Tuzla is.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: For those of us who may not be aware, Tuzla at that

9 point in time was a Muslim municipality in a sense, multi-ethnic.

10 Q. It was governed --

11 A. With a predominantly Bosniak population.

12 Q. Exactly. That's where the army of BiH was located, and you also

13 had HVO working along with them; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Okay. And, in fact, as I understand it, the 2nd Corps of the army

16 of BiH was located there, a rather large force, if you know? If you

17 don't know, that's fine. Okay.

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. I just don't know. I know there was something. But what, which

21 corps, I don't know.

22 Q. All right. Again, this is for comparative purposes. If we look

23 at 1D 00854, 854, this is dated 10 July 1992. We're just going to take

24 them in chronological order. Here, this is on mandatory payment of

25 foreign currency, and Article 1 states: "All workers employed abroad and

Page 23530

1 with permanent residence in Tuzla municipality shall make a payment of

2 1.000 deutschemarks for the needs of the defence of Tuzla ..."

3 And if we look further down, we see that it's in the Privredna

4 Banka Zagreb, and also there's another bank in Germany. Do you see that,

5 sir?

6 A. I see that.

7 Q. We see that at the bottom that this is signed by the president of

8 the Presidency, a Mr. Selim Beslagic.

9 A. Beslagic.

10 Q. Beslagic. Thank you very much. It would appear that, here,

11 they're doing the same thing as in the other municipalities: Number one,

12 sort of taxes their residence; and number two, using a non-resident

13 account, bank account, outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Okay. All right.

16 We go on to the next document, 1D 00858, 858. Again, it's dealing

17 with Tuzla, and same gentleman has signed it. This is 30 July 1992. This

18 is an order to pay out members of the Reconnaissance and Sabotage Platoon,

19 and it says in the very first, Article I: "It is hereby ordered to pay

20 out double salaries to members of the Reconnaissance and Sabotage Platoon

21 at the recommendation of the commander of their unit."

22 So, here, it seems that the municipality of Tuzla is also

23 financing; and at least with this particular platoon, perhaps because of

24 the activities they're involved in, they get to have a double salary.

25 Correct?

Page 23531

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. All right. We go on to the next document, 1D 00866. 866. This

3 is dated 27 of August 1992, same gentleman, same municipality. "Decision

4 on mandatory foreign currency payments by persons working abroad." Again,

5 it's for comparison purposes.

6 Now, if we look at this, we look at Article 1 and it says: "All

7 citizens, residents of the municipality of Tuzla working abroad on a

8 temporary basis, shall pay an amount of 2.000 deutschemarks ..."

9 And if we look at Article 2, we see that there's a bank in Zagreb,

10 and there's another bank that appears to be the German bank that we saw

11 earlier, "...or with authorised agents or representatives of the

12 municipality of Tuzla."

13 So, again, if we look at this particular document, this decision

14 dated 27th of August, 1992 in the municipality of Tuzla, we see, one, that

15 they're taxing their citizens abroad -- who are working abroad; and, two,

16 they're asking them to deposit that amount in non-residential accounts.

17 Correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. All right. Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 00868, 868,

20 this is 16 September 1992. This is an order to impose special tax. If we

21 look at the second page, we see it's the same gentleman, the president of

22 the Presidency of Tuzla.

23 This is a special war tax, and it says in Article II: "All legal,

24 civil-legal entities, and natural entities involved in the sale of goods

25 and services and the manufacture of consume products for end users in the

Page 23532

1 territory of Tuzla municipality shall be liable to pay a special war tax."

2 We see that, at least for cigarettes and alcohol, cigarettes is 30

3 per cent, alcohol -- cigarettes and alcohol is 30 per cent, 10 per cent on

4 other products.

5 So, here, we have the municipality taxing its citizens and also

6 other entities with a special war tax, and I assume that this is all in

7 order to finance the ABiH and other -- and for other municipal services;

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. All right. Now, let me just stop before I go on to the next

11 couple documents.

12 Do these documents seem to be -- the activities in the documents

13 from Tuzla, do they seem rather similar to what was happening in the

14 various municipalities that we touched on earlier, those that were

15 included in Herceg-Bosna?

16 A. Absolutely, and in the whole area, as far as I know. I'm

17 referring to the federal part, the area controlled by the BH army and

18 controlled by the HVO. Everything was done according to the same

19 principle.

20 Q. Okay. Now, if we go on to the next document, 1D 01756, 1756,

21 this is dated March 5, 1993. This is a decision. Again, if we look at

22 the last page, again, the president of the Presidency, the same gentleman

23 that signed the previous decisions. This one is a decision on "obligatory

24 foreign currency payments for persons temporarily employed abroad for the

25 year of 1993."

Page 23533

1 And, if we look at Article 1, we see that there are various

2 amounts: 2.000 deutschemarks, 1.000 deutschemarks, 500 deutschemarks.

3 And, if we look at Article 3, if we go to Article 3, we see, again, that

4 the payments are to be made at various non-residential -- non-residential

5 accounts. We see, actually, in the first one, we see the Tuzla bank. So

6 at this point, at least in Tuzla, there is a bank that's functioning.

7 Correct?

8 A. Obviously, it was done during that period. It certainly wasn't in

9 1992.

10 Q. Right. So it would appear, at least in 1993, it was possible in

11 some places within Bosnia-Herzegovina to have banks functioning.

12 A. What do you mean by "functioning"?

13 Q. Well, operating.

14 A. If you mean --

15 Q. Well, we saw there was a bank in Mostar that was operating based

16 on a feasibility study and a request that was made. Do you remember that

17 yesterday we saw that and discussed that. They got permission from the

18 central bank, the national bank of Bosnia to open up a bank account -- to

19 open up a bank.

20 A. Yes. I agree with that, but the functioning of a bank or

21 operating of a bank is one of its -- one of its duties is payments with

22 other countries. How do you imagine that the man in Tuzla or somebody in

23 Tuzla could have payments with foreign countries, unless -- or rather, if

24 the money -- when you send in an order, that order has to be backed up by

25 money.

Page 23534

1 So when you pay in a 100.000 marks, for example, in Germany, the

2 person from Tuzla from the bank has to take that money physically to

3 Germany.

4 Q. Okay. So, in other words, what you're telling us is that they had

5 the same challenges in Tuzla that they had in Mostar.

6 A. Far greater. Because in Mostar, well, the road was open to

7 Croatia so you could pass by that way; whereas, Tuzla was surrounded, so

8 they couldn't take the money out of Tuzla.

9 Q. All right. And then we see other banks such as the one in Zagreb.

10 We see the other bank that we talked about, the commercial bank of Mulheim

11 Ruhr, however you pronounce it. We see another bank in Frankfurt. And

12 you can also pay in cash at the -- at the cash desk at the Assembly of the

13 of municipality of Tuzla.

14 So, again, this decision is very similar to what we've seen with

15 respect to other municipalities taxing their foreign citizens or their

16 citizens working abroad and having them place that money in various

17 accounts, including accounts that are outside Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Okay. Now, with the last set of documents for this chapter, I

21 want to go to another municipality, and this is the municipality of

22 Maglaj.

23 So this is the first document, 1D 00218, and this was published in

24 the -- it says: "Pursuant to Article 42 of the decree law of defence

25 Official Gazette of the republic of BH." It's signed by the president of

Page 23535

1 the Executive Committee of the Maglaj municipality, an Ivan Grlic, and it

2 says here: "The Natron DD joint stock company Maglaj is hereby ordered to

3 pay travel expenses of 1.058 German marks to Ante Marincic, the commander

4 of the HVO staff in Maglaj, incurred during the purchase of MTS material,"

5 and so on and so forth.

6 Can you tell us anything about this gentleman or this activity or

7 anything? Tell us, what does this order tell you at least?

8 A. So this order means that -- that the technical equipment and

9 materiel, well, you can have anything under that title. It can range from

10 weapons, bullets, spare parts for combat, spare parts for vehicles.

11 Q. Okay. Now, if it's being paid to the commander of the HVO --

12 incidentally, is Maglaj municipality within the Croatian Community of

13 Herceg-Bosna or the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna?

14 A. As far as I know, no.

15 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 00213, this is a

16 decision. Again, the same gentleman signs it. Yes?

17 A. Could you repeat the number, please?

18 Q. 213.

19 A. [In English] Mm-hmm. Okay.

20 Q. 213. This is a decision, again based on the degree law on defence

21 published in the Official Gazette of the Republic of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, Maglaj municipality. It says here under Article I: "The

23 Maglaj Municipal Secretariat for Finance is hereby ordered to make a

24 withdrawal from the foreign currency bank account from the Maglaj

25 Municipality Executive Council and pay 15.000 deutschemarks to the Armed

Page 23536

1 Forces of Maglaj Municipality for the special procurement ..." and it goes

2 on.

3 And then, in Article II, it says: "The Maglaj Municipality, BH

4 army, and HVO are obliged to present proof of the procured MTS-ammunition

5 to the Maglaj Municipal Executive Council."

6 Help me out here, sir. It seems that this particular

7 municipality, which at least to your understanding is not within

8 Herceg-Bosna, is asking for the payment or for the -- in this decision, is

9 making a decision for a withdrawal from the foreign currency bank account.

10 Does that mean that they have a bank account that's outside of

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Is that what they're referring to when they say

12 foreign currency bank account, if you know?

13 A. I don't know, but they couldn't withdraw it anywhere else but from

14 some non-residential account, outside.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I should say I'm -- it's pointed out to me that

17 actually it's May 1993, Your Honours, as opposed to January 1993. At the

18 preamble, it should read "May."

19 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now I just have -- I just want to go

20 into one last area, and so we're going to switch gears a little bit.

21 We talked a little bit about the assistance that was coming in

22 from the diaspora. Do you recall that there were some questions, and you

23 even --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. You were even questioned by the Prosecutor, when you gave

Page 23537

1 your statement, about that; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Now, when we're talking about money coming in from the diaspora,

4 we saw some documents where municipalities are asking its citizens who are

5 working abroad to make contributions. They're being taxed for the war

6 effort. Is it fair to say -- but there were also others who were living

7 abroad under -- that we can call the diaspora who were also donating money

8 to the war efforts for Croatia and for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. All right. That's not a taxation. They're not being taxed. This

11 is on a voluntary basis. They're volunteering their -- their savings to

12 assist Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. Do you need an example?

16 Q. Well, we're going to get there just slowly. I want to make sure I

17 have it right.

18 And, if I understand you correctly, some money that was being

19 donated or being channeled to Croatia was actually earmarked for Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina?

21 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. I've been sitting quietly but

22 I'm going to object to this, unless the witness has a personal knowledge

23 of this. The witness was very careful in his answers to the Prosecution

24 to only talk about things that he saw and he heard, and there were a

25 number of times that he would not answer the Prosecution's questions

Page 23538

1 because he said he did not have personal knowledge.

2 So I'd like to have foundation for how this witness can talk

3 about, address these matters as to whether someone somewhere in the world

4 made a donation earmarked for Herceg-Bosna.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. We're going to go step-by-step. I have

6 no -- I have no problems with that. But just for the record, Your Honour,

7 when the gentleman yesterday was saying that he did not have personal

8 knowledge, I want -- I want to make sure that we're fair to the gentleman,

9 because an allegation has been made that the gentleman was less than

10 candid and less than truthful with the Prosecution, and that's incorrect.

11 What the Prosecutor was attempting to do is to try to get this

12 gentleman to commit to conversations that might have occurred where he

13 wasn't present, and he could not state to any degree of certainty what was

14 being said. He was very correct when he spoke to the Prosecutor in his

15 statement, very correct when he testified under oath on direct, and he's

16 being very correct when he's testifying here on cross. So I'll lay the

17 foundation.

18 Q. Sir, do you know whether money that was being donated to the war

19 effort, going to Croatia, do you know whether any of that was actually

20 being earmarked, where the donors in a sense were saying, "We wish this

21 money to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina, or a certain percentage of it"? Do you

22 know? "Yes, no," that will do.

23 A. I can't give you a yes or no answer. Yesterday, and when I talked

24 to the Prosecution, I said that the Croats from Bosnia-Herzegovina paid in

25 a large sum of money and that very little was returned to

Page 23539

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Okay. Now, I want to look at -- I want to look at one document,

3 1D 01755, and at least -- this is from Mate Boban.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: And to make sure that we're fair to everyone, we

5 realise that this particular document -- we see Mate Boban's name, but we

6 do not see a date and we do not see a signature or a seal.

7 Q. But if we look at it, and if we look at it closely, we talk -- in

8 the second paragraph, it says: "All of your assistance for Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina goes through Zagreb and our fund for the support of Croatia in

10 Villach, Austria, which has been opened for a long period of time and is

11 under the control of the government of the Republic of Croatia and to

12 which you have already made your payments. You can underline on the

13 payment slips that your contribution is intended for Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina."

15 I'm pausing to make sure the Prosecution reads this part.

16 MR. SCOTT: It doesn't say that anyone ever did it.


18 Q. "A defence is not something of personal character, and it does not

19 have to do only with a village or municipality. Here we speak of the

20 defence of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Croatian nation as a

21 whole."

22 And, then, if we go further down, it talks about, you know,

23 Chetnik hoards. So at least we know we can sort of glean as to when this

24 leaflet might have been printed out in any event.

25 Assuming that this is a true and accurate document -- and I say

Page 23540

1 assuming because we don't have a signature, we don't have a seal, and we

2 don't have a date, and I want to be fair to the Prosecution because I'm

3 constantly being attacked of being less than fair.

4 But assuming that this is a true and accurate and complete

5 document, does it not here say that contributions can be earmarked for

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and, in fact, it gives a particular account to

7 where that money can go to, which fund, and how to designate it for Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina? Does it not say that?

9 A. Correct. And that just confirms what I said a moment ago, that

10 money came into the account that was controlled by the government of the

11 Republic of Croatia and that very little was transferred to us.

12 Q. All right. Now very quickly I want to go --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, to save time, this

14 document that has been provided by you. Where does it come from? What

15 its origin? It looks like a letter, a circular letter sent to all those

16 abroad, but how did you get it? The Prosecutor may have an objection to

17 this document being admitted, so perhaps we should settle that if you have

18 some information to provide us with.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: The only information I can provide you,

20 Mr. President, is that this was something that was being distributed; and

21 through our investigation we came across in document. It's a sort of

22 leaflet that we saw earlier. If you recall, once before, we saw a leaflet

23 that came with the Mujahedin and how -- what they should do and how they

24 should behave.

25 This is the kind of leaflet that apparently -- these sort of

Page 23541

1 things were being circulated at the time to provide notice to the people.

2 That's -- so it came through our investigation. But, in due course, we

3 will be able to tie all of this up, Your Honour, to demonstrate, to

4 demonstrate, contrary to what the Prosecution indicates, but to

5 demonstrate that yes, indeed, money was being earmarked for Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina that was going through Croatian banks. So we will be able to

7 tie this up, Mr. President.

8 Q. If we go on to the next document, 1D 01754, just very quickly,

9 1754, this is a -- that is document. It's titled "Croatian national fund

10 Chicago. Names of donors of aid to Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in

11 1991, 1991, 1992, 1993." Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 Now, if we look at this, it would seem that we have a list of

13 names. I don't know whether you've seen this document before, but am I

14 correct in assuming that this was a rather transparent process by which

15 Croats from the diaspora could donate their money and there was an

16 accounting as to who gave what, when, where, how much?

17 A. I've never seen this document before, but the fact is that

18 documents like this did exist and that they're now becoming apparent,

19 especially in the case of General Zagorac.

20 Q. All right. Okay. Very good. Now if we look at the next document

21 1D 01753, this is just a sampling again. This is dated August 27, 1992.

22 This is from an Ivan Nenadic, MD. "MD" stands for medical doctor. We see

23 here that as of August 27, 1992, it's a letter. It's a letter to Mr.

24 Mirko Volaric, president of the Croatian national association in Los

25 Angeles, California. It's a brief summary of what they were able to

Page 23542

1 achieve through south-west medical teams since September 1991.

2 And if we just look at, for instance, on the very first page under

3 the entry of March 15, 1992, we see that there's medical supplies,

4 Ministry of Health, Republic of Croatia, delivered to Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm raising my voice to make sure my colleague here

7 hears me.

8 Q. So here we see it's going the Ministry of Health of Croatia for

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Okay. Let's move on to the very last document. We can handle

11 this before the break. This is somewhat different, but I think it might

12 be helpful to the Trial Chamber. But just getting back to this last

13 document, I need to ask you one question.

14 You see where at least Mr. Nenadic is noting that in March 15,

15 1992, he and others were able to collect medical supplies and have them

16 earmarked for Bosnia and Herzegovina through Croatia? You see that?

17 Correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And, in fact, this is not some isolated incident. This was

20 occurring throughout the wartime?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now the very last document, 1D 01774, 1774. This is a -- you will

23 see this is a letter. It's coming from the Republic of Croatia, the

24 Ministry of Justice. It's addressed to a Mr. Karnavas. That would be

25 me: "Subject: Mr. Jadranko Prlic, accused before ICTY-information and

Page 23543

1 documents delivered."

2 I'll read the whole part, and then I'll ask you a question.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.


5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, there's an address

6 here. It must be a public document. There's an address in Zagreb

7 mentioned here.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: My particular office was closed after it was

9 ransacked a week before trial, in the middle of the day. So anyway,

10 that's -- we don't have to worry about the address. As far as the

11 Ministry of Justice, I think it's a public office. So I don't see that to

12 be a problem, and I --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sure you've understood me.

14 It was your address.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. Yes.

16 Q. So if we look at this, we see here and I'll just read it: "Further

17 to your letter dated --"

18 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour. Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas. I

19 apologise interrupting. But on this occasion, Your Honour, I --

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Go ahead.

21 MR. SCOTT: -- I have to object on this point. This is a

22 document, and I understand Mr. Karnavas has every right to prepare his

23 Defence case. That's not -- that's not at all in question. But I submit,

24 Your Honour, that it's not appropriate to introduce it through this

25 witness. There is no indication that this witness has any knowledge of

Page 23544

1 this document or the content of the document.

2 This document was obviously specifically created at Mr. Karnavas's

3 request, and he can certainly put that in in his case if he decides to put

4 one on, and that's his choice. But this witness cannot provide any

5 evidence about this document, and this is simply putting the Defence case

6 in during cross-examination of a witness who has no knowledge of this

7 matter.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Mr. President. If we look at the very --

9 the third paragraph of this document, it says: "Also, according to the

10 data the Ministry of Finance has, there were no direct payments from the

11 budget of the Republic of Croatia to BiH."

12 MR. SCOTT: And this witness cannot possibly have any personal

13 knowledge about this.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: If I -- if I may just at least respond for the

15 record, I'm not posing a question. Now, when I pose the question,

16 Mr. Scott can jump up and he can object, and I'm sure I'll respond. But

17 until such time, at least allow me the courtesy, Mr. Scott, of making my

18 record as well.

19 Now, there were several questions posed by Mr. Scott, and I didn't

20 object. I didn't object. I stand here. He was trying to elicit from the

21 gentleman, you know, answers with respect to monies that were supposedly

22 being paid from the Republic of Croatia to Herceg-Bosna --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ask your question.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're entitled to ask him that

Page 23545

1 question which actually is the crux of the matter.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay if we look at --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If the witness doesn't answer, I

4 don't know which witness or what witness could answer this.

5 MR. SCOTT: There is a witness, Your Honour. With all due

6 respect, with all due respect, again, this witness comes from Mr. Muljacic

7 from the Republic of Croatia. He is the one that prepared and made this

8 assertion. I do object to this because this is improper. This is an

9 improper way of introducing evidence from a third party that has no

10 connection with this witness.

11 If Mr. Karnavas wants to call Mr. Muljacic, or call a

12 representative from the government of Croatia, which, which the

13 Prosecution would then have an opportunity to cross-examine, we can do

14 that, Your Honour. But this is just nothing more and putting in

15 self-serving Defence evidence, and he is entitled to do that in his own

16 case, but through this witness who has no connection to this letter or the

17 content of the letter. It's improper, Your Honour.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, Mr. President --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: If I --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, I have settled the

22 objections. You may put your question now.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. This was a letter, sir, that was generated based on a request that

25 was made during our investigative efforts to get to the truth in this

Page 23546

1 case. Something that does matter to some of us.

2 Now --

3 MR. SCOTT: I object to that, Your Honour. Why do we have to have

4 these constant personal remarks and attacks. There's no purpose to this.

5 It matters to some of us. It's nothing but a snide comment. There's no

6 reason for it.


8 Q. If we look at paragraph 2, it says, "the agreement between --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Karnavas.


11 Q. -- the Republic of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina on

12 cooperation and mutual assistance in customs issues was signed in Sarajevo

13 27 July 2000, which means that the Ministry of Finances does not have the

14 documentation on cooperation with the customs service of BiH in the period

15 1991-1994."

16 It thence goes on to say, based on certain questions that were

17 being asked as part of our investigative efforts to get to documentation

18 that might help had us get to the truth: "Also, according to the data the

19 Ministry of Finance has, there were no direct payments from the budget of

20 the Republic of Croatia to BiH."

21 Can you comment on this? If you can't, that's fine.

22 MR. SCOTT: Now, before he answers the question, I want to know

23 what's his personal -- what is his foundation to have knowledge? Before

24 he answers and voices an opinion, I want the witness to be asked: Do you

25 have any personal knowledge of this matter.

Page 23547

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Before we get there, first, it's can he answer the

2 question. Yes or no? If it's yes, then I can go that one next step.

3 MR. SCOTT: Well --

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I appreciate Mr. Scott's assistance in teaching me

5 how to lay a foundation.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I don't approve of

7 the way with which you work. In the indictment, the accused are being

8 charged with joint criminal enterprise on funding coming from the Republic

9 of Croatia.

10 The Defence is trying to come up with data that contradicts what

11 you have said. Defence counsel is putting questions. The Ministry of

12 Justice is answering, and says in second paragraph that they have no

13 documents from 1991 to 1994. But in the third paragraph, the Ministry of

14 Justice states that according to the Ministry of Finance, there have been

15 no direct payments from the budget of the Republic of Croatia to the BiH.

16 The witness is a witness who has been in charge of financial

17 matters, who was a deputy minister. He may have an opinion and may have

18 something to say about such a document.

19 Mr. Scott.

20 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, then I have to strenuously object. The

21 Chamber doesn't understand nature of my objection. My objection is not

22 that the Defence does not have the right to put on such evidence in a

23 proper way.

24 If, if we were in the Defence case, if we were in the Defence case

25 and Mr. Karnavas wanted to tender this document to the Court, he would

Page 23548

1 have to put it in through a -- he couldn't just say, "Your Honour, I

2 tender a letter from Mr. Muljacic, and I think it's very important." He

3 would have to produce a witness who could come into court and be subject

4 to cross-examination about such a letter.

5 You would not allow him in the Defence case to simply tender this

6 document with no foundation and no witness. You wouldn't allow that, but

7 now you're going to allow him -- you're allowing him to do it through a

8 witness who has no connection to this document at all and no basis for

9 it,, the witness was, again, very careful yesterday.

10 The Chamber may recall, and Your Honour, Mr. President, you

11 characterised this witness yesterday as essentially a courier. He was

12 essentially a courier. That was the President's, your own words.

13 Then he says, "I don't want to take about anything I didn't see

14 other hear himself." Here, we're going to ask him to voice an opinion on

15 a letter from the assistant minister in Croatia.

16 I strenuously object, Mr. President.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, if I may be heard and perhaps we

18 could just cool the temperature in the room a little bit.

19 The Prosecution in direct examination was trying to elicit very

20 specific information from this particular witness. At the time, the

21 Prosecution was very confident in posing those sorts of questions and

22 expecting the sorts of answers that I guess he hoped to get.

23 At that point in time, the witness, obviously to the Prosecution,

24 seemed competent to answer those questions. The witness occasionally said

25 that he was a courier. That was primarily what his function was, but

Page 23549

1 nonetheless he was pressed. And when the gentleman was unable to answer

2 some of the rather direct questions that the Prosecution was posing, then

3 the Prosecution's tactic changed.

4 At that point in time, the witness became, although not claimed to

5 be hostile, became in a sense a hostile witness and was treated as such,

6 not merely in the form of the questioning, but also in the tone of the

7 questioning.

8 Now, as you've indicated, Mr. President, the gentleman here has

9 dealt with financial matters. At this point in time, I'm merely asking a

10 question whether he knows. We haven't heard the answer. If he doesn't

11 know, I sit down. If he knows, I ask him how do you know? He explains.

12 If it's sufficient, I move on and press forward.

13 Also, might I remind the Prosecution that, in the Defence case,

14 assuming there is one, I'm also to avail myself of the very same tactics

15 that the Prosecution does; in other words, introduce documents without any

16 viva voce testimony, or any foundation, for that matter. The Prosecution

17 does it routinely.

18 I'm merely asking one simple question. It is not a self-serving

19 document either. This was based on a request made. It was a formal

20 request. We got an answer. So it's not something I asked from this

21 gentleman, who incidentally is a diplomat, an ambassador right now. I

22 didn't ask him to help the Defence in any personal matter.

23 This was an official of the government of the Republic of Croatia,

24 and he has an obligation to help because he works on the Office of

25 Cooperation. It's through that office that we make formal requests. This

Page 23550

1 was an investigative effort, and I don't see why the Prosecutor is getting

2 all excited. I simply do not understand. What have I done to the

3 Prosecutor today?

4 MR. SCOTT: I am excited because this is an entirely improper way

5 to introduce this sort of evidence, Your Honour. Yes. I am excited

6 because this is entirely improper. It's entirely improper, and it's not

7 the same as what the -- you know, Karnavas's ploy is, you know, a best

8 defence is a good offence, and he turns around and he attacks the

9 Prosecution every time.

10 This was a document prepared specifically at the request of the

11 Defence team by Mr. Muljacic or someone. Mr. Muljacic should be required

12 to come into court and defend what he says in this statement, not getting

13 it in, sneaking this document in through a witness who doesn't know

14 anything about it.

15 This is entirely improper. It has nothing to do with anything the

16 Prosecution has done.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Just by way of example, Mr. President, just

18 very quickly; then we can take the break and we can decide what to do.

19 Earlier, I referred to a document, Prosecution document P 00985.

20 That was the document that was in the particular motion that I indicated

21 that we need to respond to. That was the document that was not fully

22 translated, and it was not in the bundle.

23 This is the sort of same document, same type of document that the

24 Prosecution is now using through its motions. Nobody's coming in to

25 testify about these documents. No foundation is laid, nothing, but the

Page 23551

1 Prosecution seems to think that that's okay. Now I'm learning from the

2 Prosecutor. He's teaching me these techniques. I'm doing exactly what

3 they're doing, and I'm grateful for his -- for his teaching.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You need to remain calm,

5 Mr. Karnavas.

6 Witness, the problem is as follows: We have before us a document

7 that seems to be saying that, according to the Republic of Croatia, there

8 was no funding from the budget made available to the ABiH [as

9 interpreted].

10 Even if you were a courier, you did indicate that you worked in

11 the finance department. Perhaps you know nothing about it. In that case,

12 we can leave it at that.

13 But at the time, when you were in Grude and when you were working

14 alongside Mr. Boban and you were involved in financial matters, did you

15 then have any knowledge or indication that there was some form of official

16 funding on the part of the Republic of Croatia or not? This, of course

17 would mean that the money would have been provided or funded by the budget

18 of the state.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday or the day

20 before yesterday when we were speaking, I said to you that this was 1992

21 and 1993. Believe me, I wouldn't know where the money came from. Since

22 what happened to me happened, I said that from the Republic of Croatia in

23 1992 about 1.4 million German marks came, but not from the budget but from

24 the Republic of Croatia, from the money that was paid by our people from

25 abroad; and, in 1993, it was about 4.5 million.

Page 23552

1 MR. SCOTT: Do I understand -- excuse me. Do I understand, Your

2 Honour, that, Mr. Rupcic has now become an expert witness, who has

3 conducted an analysis of all the budgets of the Republic of Croatia?

4 Excuse me?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He is your witness and --

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, and I asked him about --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- he answered the question

8 yesterday.

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes. I asked him about specific questions about

10 specific documents and specific transactions: Did you withdraw this cash

11 on this day? Did you go and pick up this money? Is that your signature?

12 Those are the questions. I didn't make him into an expert on the

13 financial dealings of the Republic of Croatia. This is not proper, Your

14 Honour.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for the record, on line 10 on page 46, Your

16 Honour, it says "ABiH," and I believe you intended or you'd said "HVO."

17 So that should be corrected, so not ABiH. That's all.

18 I have no further questions, Mr. President. I do apologise for,

19 you know, all this storm in this little teapot of ours. The intention was

20 merely to elicit the kind of testimony that the Prosecution was attempting

21 to elicit, and, unfortunately, the Prosecutor is not happy with his own

22 witness. I cannot help that.

23 Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now time to have a break.

25 We shall have a 20-minute break.

Page 23553

1 --- Recess taken at 10.48 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, according to the

4 calculations of the registrar, you should have one hour and-- according to

5 the very accurate calculations of the registrar, you should have one hour

6 and 45 minutes: An hour for you, half an hour from Mr. Pusic, and 15

7 minutes from Mr. Karnavas.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Thank you, Your

9 Honours. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, that would be the right time

10 frame.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

12 Q. Good day, Witness.

13 A. Good day.

14 Q. Now I would like to deal with some of the things you explained

15 during your direct examination; namely, when you explained how the defence

16 department in 1992 and in part of 1993 or throughout 1993 paid personal

17 incomes to professional and active-duty units. I would like you to

18 confirm whether I understood correctly what it was that you were saying.

19 Members of the professional units signed professional contracts,

20 and that was the reason why all members of these units had salaries paid

21 to them. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Before we proceed, since you and I speak the same language, please

24 keep your headphones on. For the interpretation, we need to pause between

25 my question and your answer so that everything could be interpreted.

Page 23554

1 As for the active-duty members, do you agree that these are

2 members of the commands of the Main Staff of the HVO, the operative zones,

3 the operative groups, and the commands of brigades? Would that be it, the

4 active-duty members who were paid by the defence department?

5 A. That would be it. Brigades and units have a set establishment of

6 active-duty personnel.

7 Q. You explained that in the right way. Through this book, logbook,

8 it is exactly established a which personnel is in these positions, and

9 these persons were paid out these salaries; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Yesterday, on several occasions, we heard from you during your

12 direct examination yesterday and the day before yesterday and today during

13 cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas, and we saw this through certain

14 documentation, that some municipalities also financed some units.

15 Now I would just like to ask you to go back to a document. You

16 don't have to look at it. You don't have to go through Mr. Karnavas's

17 binder. It's going to be in e-court, because I'd just like to clarify one

18 thing. That is 1D 01762.

19 While we're waiting for the document in e-court, I'm going to

20 remind you what this is about. This is a document that was adopted by the

21 HVO of the municipality of Livno on the 24th of September, 1993. That is

22 a decision on the professionalisation of the army within brigade, the HVO

23 Brigade Petar Kresimir IV, and defining adequate salaries of TIP.

24 Sir, you answered that professional units, especially you said

25 this in response to the intervention made by His Honour Judge Antonetti,

Page 23555

1 were supposed to be paid by the defence department. However, this

2 decision dates back to September 1993.

3 We see in paragraph II, let's have a look at it together, it says

4 that it is the HVO of Livno, the municipality of Livno, made a decision

5 that members of the professional units of that brigade, starting from the

6 1st of September, 1993, these members would receive a special salary

7 adequate to TIP, something that is called "TIP."

8 You said that you did not see this document before. You said that

9 there was great diversity in payments. You said that there was not an

10 established system, and you also said that the defence department -- or

11 rather, your financial department did not always have enough resources to

12 pay out salaries and to cover other expenses, even for those brigades and

13 units for which they had the duty to do so.

14 Doesn't this document show that at least from the 24th of

15 September, 1993, the municipality of Livno took over the obligation to pay

16 these professional units, too, within the brigade of Petar Kresimir IV?

17 A. That is what can be seen in this document; however, I have to

18 note, and we saw this in previous documents, while they were Home Guard

19 Units, they were still paying their salaries.

20 Q. I have a problem in terms of understanding here. Are you sure

21 that this was a Home Guard Unit, or was this a mobilised brigade?

22 A. A mobilised brigade means a Home Guard Brigade. It's the same

23 thing. Before, in the Yugoslav People's Army, within that system, you had

24 the Territorial Defence, and the Croatian expression for Territorial

25 Defence is Home Guard regiments or Home Guard Units.

Page 23556

1 Q. On the basis of what I've learned so far in this case, I didn't

2 think I would be dealing with this, but there were mobilised members who

3 were in brigades - just a moment, let me finish - then there were separate

4 Home Guard Brigades. Am I right? If you don't know anything about this,

5 if you think it's the same, I'm not going to insist on it.

6 A. No. It's the same brigades. Mobilised brigades are Home Guard

7 Brigades. These are people who did a certain type of work; and then,

8 because of the war and in order to defend their homes, they were mobilised

9 in a unit that was a Home Guard Unit.

10 Q. That is your interpretation. I'm not going to go into that any

11 further, but please let us --

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Somebody's intervening. Right?

13 I think that Mr. Praljak would like to help me, and I'm not

14 opposed to that, because I'm almost certain that as far as this particular

15 subject matter is concerned he knows more than I do.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

17 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Mr. Rupcic, there were

18 professional brigades, there were brigades attached to municipalities,

19 and -- and there were reserve brigades.

20 Now, it was only later that those brigades were -- came to be

21 known as Domobrani or Home Guard brigades. Before that, they were reserve

22 brigades; and then, later on, they had Home Guards who were over the age

23 of 55 or 60, and these people were referred to as Domobrani. But

24 professional brigades, reserve brigades that changed their composition by

25 a third, a half, or two-thirds would be at home while a third would be up

Page 23557

1 at the battle front, and Domobrani, the Home Guards, would be only those

2 who were mobilised from these brigades to perform some very light duties.

3 So would you agree with my interpretation?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have far greater experience in

5 that area than I do. I would stick to my profession, which means

6 finances. I allow for the possibility that that is so.

7 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Mr. Praljak. I'd

9 like to continue.

10 I'd like to inform the Trial Chamber that, during the preparations

11 for cross-examination of this witness, Mr. Prlic's Defence cooperated with

12 the Stojic Defence. However, we weren't able to cover all the documents,

13 all of us together. So I'd just like to follow on from what Mr. Karnavas

14 was doing.

15 Q. And, in that sense would, you take a look at my own document which

16 is 2D 00538. It is the pink binder that you have in front of you, and it

17 is the seventh the document from the top, the seventh document in order.

18 Tell me when you've found.

19 A. Yes, I've found it.

20 Q. This is, in fact, a decision on the financing of the Croatian

21 Defence Council of Livno municipality - so we're still staying with Livno

22 municipality - by our workers temporarily employed abroad.

23 Now, Mr. Rupcic, in my next few questions, I'm going to try to

24 show documents and establish that the municipalities, regardless of their

25 obligation of the defence department, financed and collected certain money

Page 23558

1 to finance the brigades which were in their area.

2 Now, Mr. Karnavas showed you document 1D 01761. You don't have to

3 look for it. I'm just saying this for the transcript. The date is the

4 26th of March, 1993; then another document, 1D 00307, dated the 2nd of

5 April, 1993, from Livno municipality about this kind of financing.

6 I want to show you the document because it is a document dated the

7 9th of December, 1992; that is to say, from this document, which is very

8 similar to the one we've already seen, it follows that already in 1992 the

9 Livno municipality had taken a decision on financing the defence. Is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'd now like to ask you to look at Article III of that document,

13 and you've spoken at length about the situation. This is what it says:

14 "All funds gathered abroad for financing the OHVO of Livno municipality

15 shall be directly to the Livno community in Frankfurt,"" And then there's

16 a bank account number. Article IV addresses that matter, too.

17 Is that what you said, that all the funds that were paid in for

18 the defence of the HVO in 1992 and in 1993 - and that was Mr. Praljak's

19 intervention, too - was in fact paid in to certain accounts outside

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and indeed outside Croatia, and that's what this

21 document says? Is that right?

22 A. Yes. Correct. So we see here that this municipality of Livno had

23 opened an account in Frankfurt. I didn't know about that account.

24 Q. Thank you. Now let's take a look at the next document. It is

25 2D 00536. It is the fifth document from the top in my binder. We're

Page 23559

1 going to go through this document quickly, and it is the wartime council

2 for Posusje municipality. Tell me when you've found it.

3 It is the war defence council of Posusje, and it is dated the 4th

4 of June, 1992. Once again, it is a decision about remuneration to

5 mobilised recruits, and that's what we mentioned a moment ago --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Mobilised conscripts.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

8 Q. Now, in Article III, let's see what it says: "Mobilise military

9 conscripts who did not receive compensation at their companies,

10 institutions, or at privately owned businesses due to any reason, as well

11 as mobilised military conscripts who are not employed, shall receive

12 monetary compensation from the fund for the defence of Posusje

13 municipality."

14 Article IV goes on to say: "Mobilised military conscripts can

15 receive monetary compensation own on one basis. That is either at the

16 company, institution, and privately owned business or from the fund for

17 the defence of Posusje municipality."

18 Now, in the statement of reasons on the second page of this

19 document, it explains why this decision is being made, and it says: "War

20 events have had deep consequences and have deeply affected the overall

21 life of our municipality. The economy is on its knees." And then, in

22 Article VII: "for mobilised military recruits, that shall be 6.000

23 Croatian dinars."

24 Now, we see from this decision by the war council of Posusje

25 municipality that, in June, the municipality of Posusje has made a

Page 23560

1 decision to finance mobilised military conscripts; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm now going to go on -- to move on, but I have a question before

4 that. When you distributed personal income, salaries, at that time, did

5 you know that the municipalities themselves in their own way were

6 assisting units that had been established or that were on their territory?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move on to the Tomislav municipality,

9 and for that please look at document 2D 00539. It is the fourth document

10 from the bottom of my binder.

11 I have quite a number of documents but I have selected just the

12 most characteristic ones which refer to what you spoke about during your

13 examination-in-chief.

14 Have you found it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This is a decision by the Tomislav municipality dated the 21st of

17 December, 1992, and it is in fact a conclusion made on amendments to the

18 conclusion on taking measures against military conscripts who did not

19 fulfil their obligations from the 15th of December, 1992.

20 I'd like you now to take a look at point 3, paragraph 3, and then

21 I'll ask you a question. It says: "The amount paid as an aid to the

22 Republic of Croatia shall not be calculated into the settlement of

23 financial obligations."

24 Now, Mr. Rupcic, did you know, were you aware that Croatian

25 citizens, and not only citizens who were Croats during the aggression,

Page 23561

1 during the JNA attack against Croatia, paid in certain donations for

2 assistance to Croatia in defending itself from the Serb aggression, and

3 that all this was going on in 1991 and 1990; that is to say, far before

4 the conflicts in Bosnia-Herzegovina began?

5 A. Well, if you remember what I said, that is what I confirmed in my

6 previous statements.

7 Q. So from this decision made by the Tomislavgrad municipality, well,

8 it states that you have certain obligations to finance units which were

9 established in Tomislavgrad municipality, but it says that the amount paid

10 as aid to the Republic of Croatia shall not be calculated into the

11 settlement of these financial obligations.

12 So Mijo Tokic says, the president of the HVO, you have a new

13 obligation to assist the defence of the HVO; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. A while ago you

16 referred to this, but we don't have your statements and that's a problem.

17 And, in paragraph 3, there's something new, a new piece of information

18 which I've just discovered.

19 It seems that, as far as the municipalities are concerned, some

20 funds were sent to the Republic of Croatia to help the Republic of

21 Croatia. Is that how we should understand this paragraph, paragraph 3?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge, when I was

23 talking about the overall aid which came in from the Republic of Croatia,

24 I said at the time that the Croatian people from Bosnia-Herzegovina paid

25 in considerable financial resources into the account in Villach, which was

Page 23562

1 called the account for the defence of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 From that money paid into that account and other accounts,

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, the HVO received 1.400.000 in 1992 and 4.5

4 million in 1993.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But my question was a more

6 accurate question. I wanted to know whether this document establishes

7 that there were funds that were -- the money was coming from these

8 municipalities and sent to the Republic of Croatia and that the money was

9 only coming from Croatian citizens abroad.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croats who were living abroad. Now,

11 the municipality would say, "Yes, you did pay in that money into that

12 account, but it is your duty to defend your municipality, or, rather, to

13 financing your own municipality. So the fact that you paid in money over

14 there, we're not interested in that. We don't count that. Give some

15 money to us."

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

17 Q. For us to clarify this whole issue and the question raised by

18 Judge Antonetti, well, you have given an answer and you said that it

19 wasn't the municipalities which financed the Croatian defence but

20 individuals.

21 Now, I'd like to ask you, to make certain that what you're saying

22 is correct, for us to go back to a document shown to you by Mr. Karnavas,

23 which is in my own binder, and it is 2D 00540. It will come up on e-court

24 but you can also look at did in hard copy. It is the third document from

25 the bottom.

Page 23563

1 Tell me when you've found it. It's come up on e-court.

2 We'll see from that document that, in fact, the Tomislavgrad

3 municipality, on the 2nd of August, 1992, made this decision to finance

4 the requirements of a total national defence; and pursuant to this, in

5 Article 2, it gives -- passes this responsibility to citizens. It has so

6 much for men, so much for women, and then citizens employed in Austria,

7 and then you have the men, women columns.

8 Was this in fact financing by individuals and not financing of the

9 municipality, which possibly the municipality then transferred to Croatia?

10 A. Well, that's what I said. The municipality collected money from

11 individuals, and it didn't send that money to Croatia. It financed its

12 own soldiers on its own territory.

13 Q. Before that, it was individuals from that municipality as

14 individuals paying in sums of money for -- in order to assist the defence

15 of Croatia from the JNA aggression; is that right?

16 A. That's what I said a moment ago. They said, "What you paid into

17 those accounts, we're not interested in any way of that. You should now

18 pay in to the municipality money that can be distributed to their own

19 soldiers."

20 So it was the defence department that did not have information and

21 did not dispose of the money that was paid into the municipalities.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down and make

23 pauses between question and answer. Thank you.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I've been asked to slow down. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to ask you now to move on to another document. It is 2D

Page 23564

1 00535, which is the fourth document in my binder. Tell me when you've

2 found it, please.

3 A. I have found it.

4 Q. This is a document compiled by the Croatian Defence Council of

5 Tomislavgrad, on the 20th of February, 2003 [as interpreted]. It is the

6 financing of Tomislavgrad --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1993.

8 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation].

9 Q. -- until the present day. It calls for financing to be taken over

10 and to compensate the costs incurred to date.

11 Now, in the first sentence, and I'm just going to focus on certain

12 parts of the text, it says in the first sentence: "As you already

13 know..." This was sent to the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the

14 Croatian Defence Council. It says: "As you already know, Tomislavgrad

15 municipality and its area ... has 3.500 soldiers engaged, of which 2.800

16 soldiers from its territory."

17 It says: "From the beginning of the war until the present time,

18 Tomislavgrad municipality did not receive financial help either from the

19 HZ HB or any other municipality. It had to bear all war expenses by

20 itself, and thus was forced to engage its material and monetary funds."

21 Now, take a look at the Croatian version and the last paragraph on

22 the first page. It says: "Within the Kralj Tomislav Brigade, there is

23 one battalion from Kupres, one battalion from Posusje. It could hardly be

24 expected from Kupres municipality for it to bear the expenses for its army

25 and refugees by itself, and also Posusje municipality did not take over

Page 23565

1 expenses for its battalion ..."

2 Well, it's a battalion that was in the Tomislavgrad area. I don't

3 know if you know anything about that, but that's what it says here.

4 And then it goes on to say in the Croatian text: "Besides that,

5 the organisation and training of the Jajce battalion was organised, which

6 after the fall of Jajce was again situated in the area of Tomislavgrad,

7 together with the refugees, was borne by the Tomislavgrad municipality,

8 which created additional financial and material burden."

9 Now, we have a calculation of how much Tomislavgrad municipality

10 spent on defence; and then, in continuation, there's a proposal asking

11 that the HZ HB take over the financing of all expenses for defence and

12 that it should compensate Tomislavgrad municipality for expenses incurred.

13 Now, do you know that even after this date, the 20th of February,

14 1992 [as interpreted], in fact, this financing was continued by the

15 Tomislavgrad municipality, or rather, the defence department never had

16 sufficient funds for -- in order to finance all the members of the HVO?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Now I'd like to move on to another topic.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] My colleague tells me that that is

20 mistake in the transcript, and I thank her for that. The page is 60, line

21 22. It's not 1992. That's right. It is 1993. That's the year.

22 Q. We're going to move on to another topic now, one that the

23 Prosecutor insisted upon during the direct examination; namely, how

24 decisions were made on the allocation of resources that were coming to

25 your financial department. Who made these decisions in different periods

Page 23566

1 of time?

2 Could we now please focus on the initial period? We can say that

3 that was 1992, and perhaps 1993, half of 1993, when you said, actually,

4 that throughout that time, and even after that, there was never enough

5 money; and that, to the best of your knowledge, the priorities were set by

6 Mr. Boban as to who would be paid out. Did I understand you correctly?

7 A. Yes, you did understand me correctly.

8 Q. I assume that you still have the Prosecutor's binder in front of

9 you. Yesterday, the Prosecutor showed you document number -- do you still

10 have it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please take it. Yesterday, the Prosecutor showed you

13 P 10290. We have the document in e-court, but could you please find it as

14 well. It's going to be easier for you to see it.

15 A. I've found it.

16 Q. This is a payroll for the month of October 1992. Isn't that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Before speaking to the Prosecutor, did you see this document?

20 A. Before speaking to the Prosecutor, no, I do not recall.

21 Q. You said that the document was not signed by Mr. Stojic, and that

22 can be seen from the document itself.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. You said that the document was signed by Mr. Majic, your superior.

25 Am I right?

Page 23567

1 A. Yes. I said that having seen the card of depositor signatures, I

2 recognised the signature of Mr. Majic.

3 Q. As we can see, the document is not verified by a stamp of the head

4 of the defence department. Do you perhaps know what this stamp looked

5 like?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Very well. Let us look at page 1. Was this document written on

8 the official paper of the defence department? Did you have occasion to

9 see that? It's the upper part.

10 A. Yes. It said the defence department on the top.

11 Q. On the document, there is a log number, whatever you call it,

12 03-2541/92; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please have a look at the document -- or rather,

15 document P 00586. That is the document with a yellow sticker towards the

16 bottom of my binder.

17 Sir, when you find it, 586 is the number, yellow sticker.

18 A. I've found it.

19 Q. We are not going to go any further. Just look at page 1. It has

20 to do with the establishment of the defence section, and it is a document

21 dated the 17th of October, 1992, so just a day before the one that we

22 looked at a minute ago. The number on it is 03-142.

23 On this document, it says exactly what you said that the

24 letterhead says, "the defence department"; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23568

1 Q. Mr. Stojic signed that, and that cannot be contested; right?

2 A. I recognised it also from the card.

3 Q. Let's go back to document P 0290?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Can counsel please speak

5 into the microphone. We have great difficulty hearing her. Thank you.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

7 Q. We see a difference here in terms of the number of this document

8 in addition to other noted differences, which makes it obvious that the

9 document was not written at the office of the head of the defence

10 department. Could you draw the same conclusion?

11 A. I don't know where it was written, the form, that is, but I know,

12 or rather, I see -- well, I have seen this difference, yes.

13 Q. Sir, I asked you all of this because you said that at first, when

14 the HZ HB started functioning, as far as the allocation of resources was

15 concerned, when there was money, Mr. Boban made the decisions. However,

16 you also said and this document does show that this money was withdrawn

17 and distributed to the mentioned units, and that cannot be contested;

18 right?

19 A. No doubt about that.

20 Q. Sir, was there a technical problem? Well, I'm going to give you

21 an assumption. Mr. Boban perhaps did not propose this document, did not

22 give a number, did not give it to Mr. Majic to sign it. Would it be

23 technically logical that it was drafted by -- that had it been drafted by

24 Mr. Stojic, he could have done that in his office and sent it by fax to

25 Grude; then it would have had the stamp, the signature, and the number

Page 23569

1 that is required and that would show that this had to do with the things

2 that he was deciding about at the time?

3 A. Well, it would have been possible for them to do that.

4 Q. I am sorry. I will slow down.

5 The situation is identical with document P 0291. Can you find

6 that document? Now it is that binder of documents, the Prosecution

7 binder. Can you find the document that is the payroll actually?

8 A. I found it.

9 Q. We haven't got it in e-court, but I hope that we will see it on

10 e-court as well. The page is 0289 -- 0289-8284. That's the ERN number of

11 the Croatian translation. So it's the same document, and the date is the

12 same; however, these are just salaries for December; is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. You were authorised to collect the money by Mr. Jelavic and

15 Mr. Majic?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. You withdrew the money on the 17th of December 1992?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. I would like to ask you to have a look at this document and see

20 for which purposes this amount of money was withdrawn. Can you confirm

21 that there's a reference here to the HVO in municipalities that were not

22 within the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

23 I'm going to help you. It is the HVO Zepce under number 1; then

24 2, Maglaj; 3, Novi Seher; 4, Teslic; 5, Zavidovici; and 12, Zenica. Am I

25 right?

Page 23570

1 To the best of your recollection, were these municipalities within

2 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?

3 A. As far as I can remember, they were not.

4 Q. Sir, do you know that the HVO -- that actually HVO units existed

5 throughout the territory outside HZ HB, and that in some territories they

6 even fought together with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the Serb

7 aggression?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. I would like to note that these HVOs are noted in the previous

10 list of salaries for October.

11 The Prosecutor asked you, during your interview in 2005, why item

12 22 for the 1st Herzegovinian Brigade exceeds the amount for other cases.

13 If you remember your answer, could you tell us what it was? It is 22.

14 A. This brigade was in the area of Capljina and Stolac; that is to

15 say, that it included that area which was engaged in immediate activity.

16 So, in that area, there was absolutely no economic activity. Nothing was

17 functioning at the time. No money could be collected, so, well, almost

18 half of that brigade consisted of Bosniaks.

19 Q. Sir, was it a big brigade in terms of personnel levels?

20 A. Yes. It had about 5.000 men.

21 Q. As far as I remember, that's what you said to the Prosecutor, too.

22 Did that brigade include Neum, Capljina, and Stolac, as far as you can

23 remember?

24 A. Yes. Yes, that entire area.

25 Q. Could you now find in my binder document 2D 00150. There is a

Page 23571

1 yellow sticker there.

2 A. Yes, I've found it.

3 Q. Sir, we see, in this document, it's a defence department document,

4 the 9th of June, 1993. It says: "Overview of the national structure of

5 the members of the HVO," and then it is being delivered.

6 Please look at page 2, and we will find this 1st Herzegovinian

7 brigade. It is under number 14 here. Have you found it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the date, this was received in June 1993. In the month of

10 June, can you confirm, if you remember, that already then there was a

11 conflict between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO?

12 A. Yes, in certain areas.

13 MR. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I apologise to

14 interpreters. We are going to be more careful.

15 Q. At that point, the brigade has 4.686 members, out of which 1.659

16 are Muslims. That is roughly what you remember, too; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about the professional unit

19 called the Convicts Battalion, so could we have a look at item 36. It's

20 the Convicts Battalion. It had 280 members, is that right, that is what

21 it stated here, out of which 116 were Bosniaks or Muslims? Do you

22 remember that it had a large number of Muslims?

23 A. I don't recall the exact number, but I did know that they had

24 them.

25 Q. Finally, sir, I would like to ask you to look at another document.

Page 23572

1 If it's hard for you to find it I'm going to ask for it in e-court. It

2 has to do with the transfer of resources and what you were involved in.

3 P 10291 is an order issued by Mr. Susak.

4 The document has an ERN number, 0289 -- 0289-8283. You'll see it

5 on e-court.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. Thank you. Thank

7 you. We are getting very efficient assistance.

8 Q. Please, the Prosecutor showed you this document, but let us focus

9 on this transaction of 306.000.000, et cetera, Croatian dinars. Does it

10 say here, in paragraph 1, that this is a loan?

11 A. Yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel speak into

13 the microphone. We really cannot hear her.

14 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We're going to move on to the annual report, so could you please

16 look at the Prosecution binder. P 089 -- 08181 is the number, P 08181.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. When you find it, could you tell me.

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Could we please go to the page that

20 has to do with the finance department and the page that has to do with the

21 structure of revenue from the 1st of January until the 31st of December,

22 1993.

23 Q. It is roughly page 7.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. You've found it, but the others need to follow it, too.

Page 23573

1 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] It's not in my binder, so I will say

2 in the Croatian version it is page 03469322. I'm sure that it will be

3 found. I think that it's the seventh page in English, and I'm sure that

4 the Honourable Trial Chamber will manage to find it as well.

5 Q. The Prosecutor asked you something about expenditures but not

6 about revenues. Before any question about this balance sheet, Mr. Rupcic,

7 can you confirm to us that the records of expenditures and revenues that

8 were compiled in 1993 were proper and regular, and that can be seen from

9 the cards that follow?

10 Was everything recorded, all the expenditures and all the revenues

11 in that year?

12 A. I can confirm that absolutely everything was recorded and that

13 this report went to the finance department, later the Ministry of Finance,

14 the civilian one, and it was used as proof.

15 Q. We are talking about the structure of revenues here for all of

16 1993 expressed in Croatian dinars; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let us try to see what it was in 1993 that the defence department

19 of the HZ HB received from Croatia. I'm going to put a question to you,

20 and you're going to tell me.

21 Here it says, "Revenue from the budget and from donations." Is

22 the first item the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, Zagreb?

23 A. It says, "The Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia,

24 Zagreb," but we're going back to my testimony earlier on, to the effect

25 that the Republic of Croatia, or rather, the individuals such as Mr. Susak

Page 23574

1 and Mr. Zagorac, were authorised to use money in foreign banks, deposited

2 in foreign banks. So they were the signatories on the accounts. Their

3 signatures were deposited, and they transferred the money.

4 Q. We'll come to that in due course, sir, but this is what it says

5 here, and that was where we had our discussion when Mr. Karnavas asked you

6 about this. You claim that large sums of money, donations from citizens

7 of both Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, were paid in to certain accounts

8 for the defence of the HZ HB, and that part of that money, de facto, would

9 appear as if it had passed through the Ministry of Defence of Croatia on a

10 piece of paper like that. Am I right in saying that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. But we're not going to deal with that now. We're just going to

13 calculate the sum. You said the amount, and you told us how much there

14 was in 1993 that came from Croatia. Here, we have the exact figures from

15 a document provided to us by the Prosecution, so we don't have to guess.

16 We can calculate it exactly, and please help us out here.

17 A. It is 16.760.000 -- I beg your pardon, 16.764.924.236 Croatian

18 dinars, which corresponds to --

19 Q. Just a moment, please. We'll calculate it in just a moment.

20 Would you take a look at the first item, where it says "Received in DEM."

21 Does the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia appear here as

22 well?

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 Q. From the entire structure of revenues, these were only two items

25 which arrived - and you can confirm that, can you not - from the Defence

Page 23575

1 Ministry of the Republic of Croatia, or rather, that would be the sum

2 total of all the individual transactions shown to you by the Prosecutor.

3 Isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, do you believe me when I say - I'm not as good a

6 mathematician as you are but I use the computer - that if you add up these

7 two figures, it would come to 17.033.694.236 Croatian dinars?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. I'm sure you can see that visually and check out the maths of

10 that.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And you said that was about 4.5 million, if I understood you

13 correctly, roughly 4.5 million; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Marks, marks? 4.5 million marks; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, to avoid any guesswork, the Prosecutor showed you many

18 documents from which, with your help, we can calculate exactly what the

19 exchange rate of the Croatian dinar was on different days. Since this is

20 the sheaf for 1993 as a whole, I would like to ask you -- and this will

21 come up on e-court, I assume, because we haven't had this document in

22 e-court.

23 But, anyway, it is in the binder which in the binder is P 10297,

24 and the ERN number is 0342-4345.

25 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] As that contains a large number of

Page 23576

1 documents, I would like to have it on e-court. The next one. That's not

2 the right document. I'm looking at another document, ERN number

3 0342-4345.

4 It is a document from the Privredna Banka of Zagreb, where it says

5 "Sales" at the top.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd like to come back to a

7 document, the document which shows the balance between expenditure and

8 revenue, which is document 2118. 2118, Revenue. I can see "Republic of

9 Croatia, Ministry of Defence, Zagreb," and I can a total of 16.764.924.236

10 Croatian dinars. Apparently, that would be a contribution from the

11 Republic of Croatia. Next, on the next page, you can see the total of all

12 the revenue. As a total, you have 185.682.783.197 dinars.

13 This takes different items into account among which some foreign

14 currency amounts; and, incidentally, I note that the HVO has a dollar

15 amount for dollars, et cetera. I think aren't dollars,

16 because the Americans aren't in Tuzla. This is my reasoning.

17 If I look at what Croatian Republic has given, and

18, the direct funding from Croatia is less than 10 per cent.

19 Correct me if I'm wrong.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no, you're not wrong,

21 but let me underline, once again. It's not that the Republic of Croatia

22 gave that. It just transferred the money on. It went via Croatia.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Fine.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was going to come to

25 that through my questions, but I just want to see if we can confirm what

Page 23577

1 the witness said.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could it be quick, please.

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like us to arrive at the

4 witness's answer - and he repeated his answer several times - at how much

5 that sum was in marks, to confirm that through the documents that we have.

6 We now have on e-court a document which is called "Sale." And in

7 that document, we have all the elements on the basis of which we're able

8 to calculate the exchange rate of the Croatian dinars for the 12th of

9 November, 1993.

10 Q. We can see here - now, Witness, please help me out here - that

11 12.447.600 Croatian dinars is equal to 3.280 German marks. Am I right?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. If we divide these two figures, then we would obtain the exchange

14 rate, or rather, the value of one mark. Is that correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. When we calculate this division, it appears that 1 mark was equal

17 to 3.795 Croatian dinars on the 21st of November, 1993, when this

18 transaction was carried out?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. So, following on from that calculation, although it cannot be

21 applied for the 31st of December when the inflation was even greater; am I

22 right in saying that?

23 A. Yes, you are.

24 Q. Then, this sum, which came from Croatia, in fact would represent

25 4.488.445 German marks. Is that what you knew and what you testified

Page 23578

1 about? Am I right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on now to another set of questions

4 directly related to your last answer to His Honour Judge Antonetti, and it

5 refers to donations.

6 If I might interpret it in my own way, you in fact said you

7 consider that the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia sent on

8 money from the resources collected and deposited in different accounts

9 paid in by citizens, both of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, for

10 assistance to Bosnia-Herzegovina. Am I right in saying that?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Now, I am going to continue on from where Mr. Karnavas left off in

13 his cross-examination because I have several documents here, and one of

14 the documents is technically perhaps better than the one shown by

15 Mr. Karnavas.

16 So let's look at 2D 00534, please, and it is the last document in

17 my binder. It's the last document. It's a document described by -- or

18 rather, signed by Mr. Boban on the 20th of April, and addressed to three

19 people: Pero Milolaza, Martin Soljic, and Ivo Zrno. It is 1992.

20 Let's see what Mr. Boban tells them: "Based on an invitation to

21 all donors for a fund to aid for Herceg-Bosnia from abroad, please submit

22 the cash which you brought to the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of

23 Croatia. On the money order, state that payment is aid for Herceg-Bosna,"

24 and then it goes on to say, "please convey our deep gratitude to all the

25 donors," et cetera, et cetera.

Page 23579

1 I'm quite sure, sir, that you've never seen this document before.

2 Am I right?

3 A. Yes, that's right. I've haven't seen, no.

4 Q. You said that you knew that these funds existed; right?

5 A. Especially after the affairs in Croatia.

6 Q. From this document, does it emerge quite clearly that Mr. Boban is

7 telling the donors that he asks that the cash that they brought in be hand

8 over to the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of Croatia; and from this

9 document, what you have been claiming all along can be seen that those

10 donations were handed over to the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of

11 Croatia?

12 A. Whether to the Ministry of Finance or not, I didn't know that.

13 But to accounts opened by the Croatian state in foreign banks, I knew

14 about that.

15 Q. Yes. It is my suggestion that not only the Ministry, yes, because

16 we can see that, that is correct, and the funds that you showed in the

17 balance sheet for 1993, that certain funds came from other accounts, not

18 only via the Defence Ministry; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let's look at another document that follows on from this is

21 2D 00533. It is the penultimate document in my binder, to see where the

22 funds arrived ultimately and whether what Mr. Boban signed for here is

23 correct. It is a confirmation from the Ministry of Finance, confirming

24 the receipt of money, and that foreign currency was handed over to the

25 tune 224.000 marks.

Page 23580

1 It says: "The Ministry commits to inform the Croatian national

2 committee at Grude about the amount of funds received which are allocated

3 for the defence of Herceg-Bosna," and it says: "The Croatian Defence

4 Council should inform municipalities in the communities of Herceg-Bosna."

5 Their municipalities are enumerated. In the signatures -- and the

6 signatures we have Martin Soljic, Pero Milolaza, and Ivo Zrno. They

7 appeared in the first letter we mentioned signed by Mr. Boban; right?

8 A. [No verbal response].

9 Q. From these two documents, I know you don't know about these two

10 documents; but as you have already told us, you do know about how the

11 system functioned; if not then, at least later on.

12 So from this documents, can we see that those donor resources,

13 quite a large number 224.000 deutschemarks, were money received from

14 individuals handed over to the Ministry of Finance of the Republic of

15 Croatia? Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, can we now take a look, once again, at a document that we've

18 already seen? It's important in view of Judge Antonetti's question. It

19 is 2D 00532, and it is the third document from the top. It is Mr. Boban's

20 letter. We weren't able to see his actual signature a moment ago. Tell

21 me when you've found it.

22 A. I've found it.

23 Q. It is true, sir, that this document does have Mr. Boban's

24 signature, and let's confirm one thing, again.

25 On the basis of the document we saw a moment ago, did you notice

Page 23581

1 that Mr. Boban is mentioning funds for assistance to Croatia? They are

2 documents from April 1992. Here, he says: "In recent times, there are

3 more and more actions of gathering aid for Bosnia and Herzegovina, both in

4 the Republic of Croatia and abroad. At this moment, that aid is of

5 exceptional -- extreme importance."

6 Then, he goes on to say that: "All your assistance for

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina," I'd like to emphasise that, "Bosnia and Herzegovina,

8 goes through Zagreb and our fund for aid to Croatia at Villach, Austria,

9 which has been in existence for a long time, and is under the control of

10 the government of the Republic of Croatia, which you used so far to make

11 payments.

12 Then it says: "On the payment orders, you can underline or

13 transfer orders. You can underline that your contributions are intended

14 for Bosnia and Herzegovina." Right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Boban goes on to say, in the second sentence of the

17 penultimate paragraph, he says that: "Defence is not something that is

18 specifically linked to just one village or municipality. That it is a

19 question of the defence of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian

20 people as a whole, and that is why our defence must be comprehensive,

21 complete," and then he goes on to say, "defence from the Chetnik hoards."

22 And then we have these bank accounts; right? We have bank

23 accounts into which the money was supposed to be paid.

24 Now, clearly, from this document, it emerges that it is assistance

25 and aid to both Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

Page 23582

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Now I'd like us to look -- well, Judge Antonetti asked you whether

3 this was acted upon, but let's look at 2D 00543, one of my own documents.

4 Tell me when you find it.

5 A. I've found it.

6 Q. This is a document from an Austrian bank. We can see, on the

7 first page of the document, that this has to do with depositing funds in a

8 particular account, 53.000 deutschemark. Mr. Jure Zovko made the payment,

9 and we see on the right-hand side that the payment was made on the 27th of

10 April, 1992.

11 Sir, one thing that is very important: We see here the number of

12 the account, and we see the name of the account. Could you please have a

13 look at the previous document as well, that is to say, Mr. Boban's

14 document, so that we are assured that this payment made is based on the

15 previous document.

16 We see the number, /647/643, and it says, "Funds for supporting

17 Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can we see that from the original? It can

18 be seen in the translation, but we can see it in the original, too.

19 I am going to give you time. It is of particular importance for

20 me to -- for you to compare the numbers of these two accounts in this

21 document and in Mr. Boban's proclamation.

22 A. The first account in Mr. Boban's proclamation corresponds to the

23 number here, and it has to do with German marks.

24 Q. Sir, Mr. Jure Zovko made this payment; right? Is that is what is

25 said here?

Page 23583

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We also have attached here a list of persons from whom this month

3 any was collected. Mr. Zovko is number 3; am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the basis of these documents and your own knowledge from that

6 period, the major donations were coming in for assistance to

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this

8 money was actually paid abroad and arrived in the way that we just

9 described and showed?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. I have only two more groups of questions. One could be a bit

12 longer, but could I --

13 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, counsel. Just before we leave that

14 document, can I, so the record is clear, I take it it's the position of

15 the Stojic Defence at least that then the Boban letter predates, predates

16 April 1992. Is that your understanding, since you say the payments from

17 the other document flow from that letter? So I take this letter is dated

18 sometime prior to April 1992?

19 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, my learned friend. As for this

20 payment, document 2D 00543, you can see that the document is the 27th of

21 April, 1992.

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

23 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] On that document, you can see that

24 the payment was made to the account that is referred to in Mr. Boban's

25 document. That is document 2D 00532. The Defence is just claiming what

Page 23584

1 is logical. May I just finish, please?

2 We are saying the only logical thing; namely, that this document

3 written by Mr. Boban must have been written before the 27th of April,

4 1992.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

6 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] In all fairness, in all fairness,

7 this document does say that these funds for Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia

8 were paid earlier; but in Mr. Boban's document, it says that: "In the

9 future, this money should not be paid only for Croatia but also for Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina," and that is shown by this document.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could counsel please speak

12 up. We can barely hear her.

13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, counsel. So that the record is clear,

14 then, the Boban letter is dated prior to April 27, 1992.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The Stojic Defence did not say that.

16 I just linked up two documents, and I drew a conclusion on the basis of

17 that.

18 MR. SCOTT: Well, what's your conclusion? I'm sorry to belabour

19 the point, Your Honour, but I think it's a point worth making given what's

20 been said by the Defence. Counsel, on one hand, I quite properly

21 understood her to be saying, that she connected the two documents

22 together, referred to the accounts, and specifically suggested that the

23 contributions made on the -- as reflected in the document dated the 27th

24 of April, 1992, flowed from Mr. Boban's letter, which is number 2D 00532.

25 That's my understanding of it, and, therefore, counsel says it's

Page 23585

1 only logical. I don't think it was a response. I don't think the month

2 was coming in response to a letter that was sent sometime later. You

3 can't respond to a letter that doesn't exist yet.

4 I just asked counsel, and I thought it was fairly straightforward,

5 if we could just have a confirmation, then, that Mr. Boban's letter is

6 dated sometime prior to 27 April, 1992. It seems logical.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] My learned friend, thank you, but it

8 seems to me that you're trying to confuse me. I am not making a statement

9 here. I am showing documents here, and I'm saying what my conclusions are

10 on the basis of these documents. It is also the right of the Prosecution

11 to draw their own conclusions on the basis of the documents that are

12 here -- shown here.

13 MR. SCOTT: So the fact of the matter then is we don't know if

14 there is any connection between the two. Counsel doesn't want to make the

15 connection between the two documents then.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you please cut

17 this short --

18 [Overlapping speakers]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- let's look at these three

20 documents: There is Boban's letter, 20th of April, 1992, asking Soljic,

21 Milolaza, Zrno to act when it comes to the payment of funds. This is

22 document number one.

23 The second document, this is the Nuremberg bank, 27th of April,

24 1992, with 53.000 deutschemark.

25 There is a third document which is not dated, which was a letter

Page 23586

1 which was probably sent by Boban to donors, which is undated, in which

2 there is an account number, 350647643, for payments in deutschemark. The

3 payment should be, no doubt, in a bank located in Austria.

4 Nuremberg, for all those who are not aware of that, is not located

5 in Austria.

6 You can proceed.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] By your leave, I would just like

8 briefly to say something in relation to a sentence from document 2D 00532.

9 It is the second paragraph where Mr. Boban says: "All your

10 assistance for Bosnia-Herzegovina goes through Zagreb, and our fund for

11 supporting Croatia in Villach, Austria, which has been in existence for a

12 long time now and which has been under the control of the government of

13 Croatia and to which you have been making statements so far."

14 And the most important sentence: "On the money orders, you can

15 underline the assistance is meant for Bosnia and Herzegovina," and that is

16 why I showed this document from the Austrian bank, where it does say that

17 it is the fund for Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 That is why I concluded that this proclamation written by

19 Mr. Boban had to pre-date there money order.

20 Q. You were a member of the HVO; and, later on, you started working

21 in the Federal Ministry of Defence, as you explained to us; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Can you tell me, as a member of the HVO and as a member of the

24 Croatian component in the army of the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25 you received vouchers for privatisation just like members of the army of

Page 23587

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. When was it that these privatisation vouchers were being handed

4 out and when could you use these benefits? Tell me roughly what year this

5 was?

6 A. 1999, 2000, something like that.

7 Q. Did you get them precisely as a soldier of the HVO, and did

8 these -- were these vouchers based on your total number of years of

9 service in the HVO?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let us explain this to the Court, if you can help me. Every

12 member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO in Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 received certain vouchers with which he could take part in the

14 privatisation process of state property, and the value of these vouchers

15 was established in accordance with the number of years of service spent in

16 the HVO and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina equally.

17 A. Yes, that's right. 400 marks per month.

18 Q. Perhaps the questions are going to seem too simple for you, but

19 please answer them?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will proceed in a few

21 minutes' time. We will have a 20-minute break now and resume afterwards.

22 So we will have a 20-minute break now.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, as far as our timing is

Page 23588

1 concerned, Ms. Nozica, you should have approximately 40 minutes left.

2 Mr. Coric's Defence counsel has 15 minutes.

3 Mr. Scott, how much time would you need for your redirect?

4 MR. SCOTT: Obviously, Your Honour, I can only give an estimate

5 since there's still outstanding cross-examinations, but I would expect

6 perhaps around 20 minutes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Mr. Coric's Defence

8 counsel?

9 MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that we

10 won't be having any questions, so we cede our 15 minutes to Ms. Nozica if

11 she needs the time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So, Ms. Nozica, if

13 you would like to have these extra 15 minutes, this means that you have an

14 hour.

15 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am almost

16 certain that I'll be able to complete my cross-examination within 15

17 minutes. So with the time that Mr. Scott said he would need, this means

18 that we ought to finish by the end of the day today.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Well, if I'm

21 at least in part responsible for that miracle to happen, then I'll be very

22 happy.

23 Q. Before the break, we talked about vouchers and privatisation, and

24 you said that you had the same rights and the same rights were recognised

25 through those vouchers your entire affiliation with the HVO; is that

Page 23589

1 correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Did every soldier in Siroki Brijeg have the same rights as HVO

4 soldiers in Travnik, Sarajevo, Tuzla, Posavina, and Bihac?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. So that means the same rights amongst themselves equal to all

7 those rights that each member of the BH army had; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. I specified the rights to privatisation. Now, can you confirm

10 that they also had all the other rights, the rights to a pension, the

11 rights to receiving commendations, medals, and all the other rights that

12 belonged to them while they were members of the HVO, that they were the

13 same as members of the BH army members to the present day? They enjoy all

14 those rights to today; right?

15 A. Yes, that's right. They have absolutely the same rights.

16 Q. The parliament of the federation, for example, of the federation

17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, decides about medals and commendations. Now, did

18 the HVO members also have the right to receive medals and commendations

19 for their participation in the HVO?

20 A. The members of the HVO had their commendations. They were not

21 called the same as those for the -- the BH army, but they enjoyed the same

22 rights. That is quite true.

23 Q. Now, the HVO or members of the HVO, did they have the same status

24 in all respects as the BH army members, if the members were a Croat, for

25 example, and the command of the army of the federation was a Muslim and

Page 23590

1 vice versa?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you confirm that after the signature of the Washington

4 Agreement, the Ministry of Defence of the federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina

5 mostly functioned in such a way as if the minister was a Croat, the deputy

6 was a Muslim, and vice versa? Is that how things worked?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. But, ultimately, all the rights for the members of both armies

9 were equally recognised and they were treated equally; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that is right.

11 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to ask you, and this will be my final question,

12 whether you know about this and can confirm it: For 1992 and 1993, the

13 defence department did not compile its budget?

14 A. No, it did not compile its budget, for the simple reason that

15 there were no indices on the basis of which you could calculate a budget.

16 Q. So can that also be said for the civilian part of the HVO, as you

17 call it? Do you know about that? Did they not calculate their budget for

18 1992 and 1993 for the same reasons?

19 A. No. They certainly didn't, because they weren't able to calculate

20 it and compile it because we had no indicators according to which that

21 could be done. You have to have certain parameters on the basis of which

22 you're going to write it.

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

24 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That

25 completes my cross-examination.

Page 23591

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just before giving the

3 floor to Mr. Scott for his redirect, I have a short question to put to

4 you. I would like you to look at 2D 00150.

5 As far as the HVO is concerned and the breakdown, how many

6 Croatian, how many Muslim members make it up. Do you have this chart?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This chart, for the transcript,

9 indicates that the total number of soldiers is 36.797, broken down as

10 follows: 30.841 Croatians and 5.956 Muslims.

11 A. Correct.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This chart provides a breakdown

13 according to each brigade, and we can see that there are brigades which

14 have a greater number of Muslim members. For instance, under point 5,

15 101st Brigade, there would be 35 per cent, 56 per cent, 34 per cent; 105th

16 brigade would have where the Muslims are in the majority, 48.41; however,

17 in some brigades, the 4th Brigade, for instance, out of 3.953, there are

18 only 200 Muslims.

19 I find these figures surprising. This clearly indicates that

20 there are a great number of Muslims in the HVO. Were you aware of such a

21 breakdown?

22 A. I knew that there were Bosniaks, that is to say, Muslims, in HVO

23 units. Now, how many exactly, well, I didn't deal with that kind of

24 thing. Quite simply, when calculating the active-duty salaries, I would

25 come across Bosniak names.

Page 23592

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, having have a look at

2 number 36, the Battalion of Convicts. Have you heard of this battalion?

3 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please look at point

5 36, item 36, the Convicts Battalion. They would be 280 in all. It seems

6 that 116 members are Muslims, approximately 41 per cent. Were you aware

7 of that?

8 A. I knew there were Bosniaks, Muslims, in that unit. But how many

9 exactly, I didn't know. Well, quite simply, I wasn't interested in that

10 kind of thing.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. As this document was

12 adduced by the Defence, I wanted to understand a few mention about it.

13 Mr. Scott, you have the floor. You have plenty of time as we have

14 40 minutes left.

15 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour, and Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, to avoid any

17 difficulty, generally speaking, when we have redirect, this creates extra

18 tension in the courtroom. When we talk about redirect, you must state

19 that the Defence as put such-and-such the question, the witness has

20 answered, and then you take it from there. The redirect should always be

21 directly connected to the questions put by the Defence teams.

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I think all the questions I

23 put that I anticipate putting will be fairly -- it will be very clear that

24 they flow from the Defence questions and Defence exhibits.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Scott:

Page 23593

1 Q. Just a couple of beginning points, Mr. Rupcic, and good afternoon.

2 Can you just tell us, in case if it comes up in the future, we'll know

3 this, where were you located and what were you doing in the period

4 October/November 1993?

5 A. I was in the same place, in Grude.

6 Q. And what was your position or title at that time?

7 A. I was in the financial department --

8 Q. And --

9 A. -- underneath Mr. Pero Majic.

10 Q. And I take it, we can understand throughout your testimony over

11 the last couple of days or so, that you were obviously not only working in

12 Grude, but I assume you also lived in the Grude area throughout that time?

13 A. For a short period of time, we lived in the hotel at Grude; and

14 when we had some free time, we could spend the night there; but Ljubuski

15 is not a long way from Grude, and then I would go back and forth.

16 Q. But we can understand, then, that in October/November 1993, you

17 were living and working in the Grude area; is that correct?

18 A. Not living; working, yes.

19 Q. And living in Ljubuski?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. All right. I think I asked you about this, sir, but there's a

22 second part that I'm not sure. I believe you've testified in the last

23 couple of days that the amount of the HVO outstanding debt at the end of

24 the war, I believe you told us the other day, was approximately

25 100.000.000 deutschemarks; is that correct?

Page 23594

1 A. Yes, over 100.000.000.

2 Q. And I think I showed you some documents in relation to that. I

3 don't recall if I asked you, but can you tell the Judges, as of

4 approximately 2005, when you were -- when I spoke with you before,

5 approximately how much of that debt, that 100.000.000 deutschemark debt,

6 was still outstanding at that time?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't mind this, the question, but it isn't

8 redirect. I just want to make sure that the Trial Chamber understands

9 that, and especially, you know, if he can -- I don't see where he's going,

10 how it's tied into the cross-examination. But this is not redirect, and

11 this information was elicited on direct examination.

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if it was, if it was, and I agree that I

13 have not researched the transcript for every entry, if the Chamber would

14 humour me on this one question, I would appreciate it, if there's really

15 an objection to it.

16 Q. Sir, can you recall -- can you remind us again, please, how much

17 had been paid by 2005 out of this had 100.000.000 deutschemark debt,

18 approximately?

19 A. By 2005. Well, I can't tell you up until 2005. All I can tell

20 you is up until the time I left the Ministry of Defence what it was, and

21 it was the 1st of January, 1999.

22 Q. And what was it?

23 A. About 80.000.000 marks --

24 Q. Outstanding?

25 A. -- was the debt outstanding. Yes, outstanding. That was just the

Page 23595

1 HVO component's debt. The Bosniak component was far greater.

2 Q. All right. I would like to ask that you turn in the -- you still

3 have the various bundles. You can take the bundle from the Prlic Defence

4 team, please.

5 Sir, I didn't want to interrupt you any more than I did during the

6 cross-examinations, but I with like to explore your knowledge of some of

7 these documents, and if you could please find, first of all, 1D 01771,

8 1D 01771.

9 A. [In English] Okay.

10 Q. So, just so we can be clear on this, you have no real personal

11 knowledge of this decision or anything that happen at any meeting where

12 this decision was taken, do you?

13 A. [Interpretation] You're right.

14 Q. And if you could look at Exhibit 1D 01760 --

15 MR. KARNAVAS: If I just might register an observation, Your

16 Honour. Again, I have no objection to the Prosecution doing this. This

17 is a technique that I picked up from the Prosecution. They've been doing

18 it for the last 18 months, and I find that what's good for the Prosecution

19 is good for the Defence.

20 So I don't mind wasting the next 20 minutes, if that what he

21 intends to do, but might I remind the Trial Chamber that routinely they

22 bring in witnesses here. They show them documents which they've never

23 ever seen, and then they elicit testimony from; and yet -- and then

24 documents, they then introduce by way of motion, hundreds, in the

25 thousands of pages of which there is absolutely no viva voce testimony.

Page 23596

1 The whole purpose of the cross-examination was not whether the

2 gentleman attended these sessions. Now, if the gentleman from the

3 Prosecution office wishes to contest the authenticity of these documents,

4 and I dare say he should not because he can find them in the Official

5 Gazettes that are available and were available to him throughout the seven

6 years that he's been working on this case, that's a different matter.

7 But the content is what it is, and I don't see the point in this

8 exercise. But if we do go down this road, I certainly would want the

9 Defence to be availed of the very same process.

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, Mr. Karnavas has just said he doesn't

11 really have an objection, so this is commentary and I don't want to waste

12 my time responding to a non-objection.

13 So if we could please go to 1D 01760.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.


16 Q. This was a document that Mr. Karnavas showed you by Mr. Topic and

17 asked you about the intention or the design of indicating that transitions

18 should take place in Croatian or Yugoslav dinars.

19 Sir, you can't tell these Judges what Mr. Topic's intentions were,

20 can you? Did you talk to Mr. Tomic about this decision and what his goal

21 was in adopting this decision?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. There was no mentioning of Mr. Tomic.

23 Mr. Tomic has nothing to do with this, unless he can connect this. But

24 you this is Topic, not Tomic. They are two different individuals and one

25 has one to do with the other.

Page 23597

1 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me.

2 Q. Mr. Topic, sir. Mr. Topic, sir --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Topic.


5 Q. The Mostar municipality, in its session of the 25th of July, 1992,

6 passed the following decision, were you present at this session?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I said Topic, not Tocic.


9 Q. Sir, this document refers to this decision having been taken at

10 the session of the July 25th, 1992 meeting of the Mostar municipality.

11 Were you present at that session?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you talk to any people who were present at that meeting who

14 explained to you what their intentions were in adopting that decision?

15 A. No. No, I wasn't present, nor did I talk to anybody, any of the

16 people who were there at the meeting, but I did know why the Jugo dinar

17 was being banned from the territory, because there was a general looting

18 going on after that.

19 Q. The Jugo dinar. Okay. Could you go please to 1D 01762, 1D 01762.

20 There's a reference in the heading under the words "Decision." It

21 talks about the professionalisation of the army, and I think two Defence

22 counsel showed you this document. It talks about the adequate salaries of

23 TIP. Can you tell us what "TIP" stands for?

24 A. I think that this is a mistake, and that's my personal opinion

25 now. It's a typing mistake because TIP, T-I-P, is not actually an

Page 23598

1 abbreviation. It was a professional army of the type, T-Y-P-E, type 1 and

2 so on.

3 Q. Just so the record is clear, when you say there's a mistake, we're

4 not just referring to the English transcript, but that's the way it's

5 written. It's also T-I-P in the Croatian-language version, which I assume

6 is the one you were looking at. Is that correct?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Read it in your own language.

8 Read paragraph II in your own language so that the interpreters can

9 translate it.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it says the right thing: "The

11 decision on professionalising the army within the Petar Kresimir IV

12 brigade of the HVO and determining adequate salaries of the type A. So

13 when we discussing whether you or I, or whatever the discussion was that

14 we had here, I said that a professional soldier at a certain period of

15 time had a salary of about 400 deutschemarks when the inflation was

16 rampant. So this would drop to 200 and then go to 400. And the

17 active-duty had about 150 to 200 German marks. That's was what their

18 salary was.


20 Q. And when it makes reference to in the second numbered paragraph,

21 II; the special salary, do you know what "the special salary" was?

22 A. Well, I've just explained to you. That's the type A salary for

23 professional soldiers.

24 Q. And do you know whether this was a supplementation that was being

25 given at this time to the HVO salaries or how much was coming from the

Page 23599

1 Livno municipal HVO?

2 A. This is something that the Livno municipality paid out.

3 Q. I know that, sir, but were they paying the entire salary, are you

4 suggesting, of this unit, or was it a supplemental payment, or was it a

5 one-time payment, or what can you actually tell us about what's the

6 content of this document?

7 A. Well, it's like this: What I can read from this document is this:

8 I don't know if I can remember all the details. Members of the

9 active-duty units, or rather, this unit, the active soldiers received

10 salaries from Grude, but only the active-duty personnel with the

11 commanders as specified in the establishment booklet, and all the reserve

12 units were paid by the Livno municipality.

13 Now, by some decision of theirs, that is to say, the Livno

14 municipality, for reasons known to them alone, asked that their unit be,

15 if I can put it this way, professionalised, or rather, that they would be

16 paid the same amount as the professional soldiers of the HVO received.

17 Q. All right. Can I ask you to go to P -- excuse me, I'm sorry,

18 1D 00858. 1D 00858.

19 A. Yes, I've found it.

20 Q. Can you share with us any knowledge you have about how this

21 platoon was organised and financed?

22 A. It refers to a unit which belonged to the BH army, so I can't

23 really tell you anything about that.

24 Q. And what can you tell us about this reward? In II, it says:

25 "Pursuant to the unit commander's assessment, this reward can be granted

Page 23600

1 to the whole unit ..."

2 What did you know about this reward?

3 A. It refers to the BH army. As I just said, I wasn't a member of

4 the BH army, so you can't expect me to interpret that.

5 Q. All right. So you don't really know anything about the document.

6 Can I ask you to go to 2D 00538. 538, my apology -- no, I guess I was

7 right, 38.

8 A. It's just in the other binder.

9 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. It's in there, yes. Thank you. If you can just

10 scan down this page or this document, please, I think it was presented to

11 you, if I'm not mistaken, as related to the HVO military, and perhaps you

12 can just confirm that there's nothing in this document that indicates that

13 it relates to the HVO military, but is financing for the HVO municipal

14 organisation.

15 A. Correct.

16 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was the document

17 that I presented to the witness, and I didn't say that it referred to the

18 financing of the military sector but of the HVO municipality of the Livno

19 municipality, and I didn't bring that into connection with the military

20 wing. I was discussing the municipality's defence, the defence of the

21 municipality.

22 MR. SCOTT: The witness has answered, Your Honour, and the

23 transcript will certainly speak for itself.

24 Q. Now, you indicated again, in response to a question of counsel for

25 Mr. Stojic, that, again, it was Mr. Boban making all the financial

Page 23601

1 decisions of the military arm of Herceg-Bosna. Can you just describe to

2 us how Mr. Boban would go about making those decisions?

3 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour. Your

4 Honour, I do apologise, but the witness never ever said that Mr. Boban

5 made all the decisions. I asked the witness whether, because of a lack of

6 resources in 1993 and 1992, certain decisions on the redistribution of

7 funds were made by Mr. Boban.

8 Now, if the Prosecutor shows me where the witness said that, I

9 must say that I didn't note that because that wasn't my intention at all.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I talked to you and here in

11 court, I also said that I was never present when Mr. Boban made any

12 decisions. However, Mr. Majic sat in the same office as me across from

13 me; and, so, from what he told me, I can confirm that.

14 Q. And how did Mr. Boban go about making these decisions? What

15 information did he consider? Who did he talk to first? What documents

16 did he have in front of him? Perhaps you can help us with that.

17 A. I wasn't there. I didn't attend the meetings. I wasn't present.

18 I would happen to meet people in the corridor, and we would communicate

19 that way, people coming to see Mr. Boban. I knew some of these people

20 from earlier on in our civilian life.

21 And, so, after they would go into his office, Mr. Boban's office,

22 Mr. Majic would be called to attend; and when he returned, he would make

23 out payments, money orders, or whatever.

24 Q. But you answered the first part of my question, and that is you

25 don't know who he talked to. You don't know how decisions were made; is

Page 23602

1 that correct?

2 A. I didn't understand your question.

3 Q. Well, as I said, how did Mr. Boban go about making these decisions

4 in his office? Who did he consult with? What documents did he have in

5 front of them? Please, tell us.

6 MR. SCOTT: I assure the Court that I am quite serious about these

7 questions. There is no humour involved in this at all. He made certain

8 decisions, and I want to know the basis for those being given.

9 Q. Tell us, please. How many times did he receive faxes from the HVO

10 Main Staff? How many telephone calls did he make?

11 A. You're asking me something now. Well, how would you expect me to

12 know that?

13 Q. Exactly, sir. You don't know, do you?

14 A. That's right. I don't, and I never said I did.

15 Q. If you can please look at Exhibit P 08118, it's the annual report

16 of the ONP that we looked at several times, including on

17 cross-examination. In reference, if you can find the page that we were

18 looking at, Mr. Stojic's counsel was asking you about the numbers. It's

19 the first real page of columns of numbers, and we were talking about the

20 money coming from the Republic of Croatia, for example. Do you have that?

21 What "Revenue from Budget"?

22 A. Yes, I've found it.

23 Q. Under "Revenue from budget and donations," apart the Ministry of

24 Defence portion, do you see under that "the HZ HB finance department

25 Mostar"?

Page 23603

1 A. I do.

2 Q. Do you know -- and then it indicates dinar. Can

3 you tell the Chamber how that 131 -- what that dinar, how

4 that's comprised? Where did that money come from?

5 A. As far as I know, as I've already told you, the funds were

6 collected from taxes and contributions and customs dues and donations paid

7 into that particular account; that is to say, the resident account in

8 Opuzen.

9 Q. So you're saying that dinar, we should be able to

10 find that, you're saying, in the account at Privredna Banka that we looked

11 at?

12 A. Yes, on the cards that we were looking at earlier on from

13 Privredna Banka, the commercial bank, and the financial department; that

14 is to say, the civilian part. We looked at expenditures and revenues.

15 Q. My apology. I cut off the interpretation. In the portion, that's

16 titled "Received in deutschemarks."

17 And about the seventh -- perhaps the seventh item down, once again

18 is the finance department Mostar, we see again 16.790.000.000, et cetera,

19 which I think everyone can see accounts for the very vast majority of

20 everything in the bottom number of 19 billion. Again, can you tell us

21 where that 16.790.000.000 came from?

22 A. What figure are you referring to can you repeat that please?

23 Q. Next to the finance department Mostar, 16.790.935.555.

24 A. It says here: Finance department, 131.000.000 million. As for

25 the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, they provided

Page 23604

1 16.000.000.

2 Q. I think we must be looking at a different document, sir.

3 Finance department Mostar, you're looking at German marks. First

4 item is Republic of Croatia Ministry of Defence; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Then we go down one, two, three, four, five lines down. Do you

7 see "HR HB finance department"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you see the number

10 A. I do.

11 Q. All right. My question to you was: Do you know where that money

12 came from?

13 A. What do you mean where they came from? They came from the foreign

14 currency account of the civilian finance department.

15 Q. And how do you -- well, do you really know the breakdown at all?

16 Do you really know where that money came from? Do you have personal

17 knowledge of the sources and amounts of money that make up that

18 dinar?

19 A. No. No. I wouldn't know that. Off-the-cuff, I would have to

20 look into documents and establish everything. But if you turn it into

21 German marks, the amount would be 4.000.000 German marks.

22 Q. I'm not arguing with your math, although I certainly haven't done

23 it as quickly as you have. But the answer is: You don't know. You

24 really don't know what that money consists of specifically. Correct?

25 A. Correct. German mark and Croatian dinar was the currency that was

Page 23605

1 used and depended on the person providing the funds whether they would

2 make the payment in German marks or in Croatian dinars.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rupcic. I have no further questions.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, if you turn to the English

6 version of this document, this is the annual report financial statement,

7 on page 7. I don't know whether you can answer my question. But as far

8 as item "Receipt in German marks" is concerned, I see "Received in German

9 marks. Republic of Croatia, Ministry of Defence, Zagreb."

10 If I understood you correctly, this was money sent by private

11 individuals, donors, that transited through the Ministry of Defence in

12 Zagreb; is that correct?

13 Thank you very much.

14 A. [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Now, then, second item: Croatian

16 Catholic mission, Esslingen. What is this about? Is this also private

17 donors or the church, the parish?

18 A. In that town in Esslingen, there is a Catholic -- Croatian

19 Catholic mission, and members, parishioners of that mission raised the

20 funds and made the payment into a savings account, from which the money

21 was then taken.

22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. If I've understood you

23 correctly, these are private individuals who provide the funds, and it is

24 not the parish or the religious authority in that location. I didn't

25 understand your answer.

Page 23606

1 A. You have to realise that Catholic missions throughout the world

2 joined into fundraising efforts for the defence -- defensive war. This

3 was true in Australia, in America, in Germany, and anywhere in the world

4 where Catholic missions exist.

5 Croatia is a Catholic country. Bosnia and Herzegovina -- or

6 rather, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, one of the constituent people are

7 Catholics by religion, and they raised funds for the defence of Catholic

8 people.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I don't understand. We're talking

10 about private individuals X, Y, Z, who privately decided to collect the

11 money, whether it be the archbishop or the parish priest who collects the

12 funds and then hands them over.

13 A. The person who headed the Catholic mission was somebody they

14 trusted, then members of that mission brought the money to him, and then

15 he in turn would -- just as we saw in another example. There was another

16 document showing 50.000 deutschemarks were raised, and next to that was a

17 list specifying who gave exactly how much.

18 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sorry. I do have one question,

20 just a clarification, and I do admit it's just to clarify a number. I

21 just simply wanted -- if the Chamber doesn't want the witness to give an

22 answer, I'll certainly accept that.

23 I simply wanted to clarify, on page 8, "the Republic of Croatia

24 Ministry of Defence Zagreb," the reference to "911.750." I simply wanted

25 to ask the witness if he could clarify what form of -- unit of currency it

Page 23607

1 was. I don't know at that point of the chart whether we're still walking

2 about dinars, dollars, deutschemarks. If I could please clarify that, if

3 I'm allowed.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

5 Further Re-examination by Mr. Scott:

6 Q. Towards the end of the statement of revenue, several lines up from

7 the bottom, there is another reference to Republic of Croatian Ministry of

8 Defence Zagreb. Can you help us with what the units of currency were?

9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, can you add up apples and pears, or apples and

10 oranges? It says herein the amount is in Swiss franks. Maybe it was in

11 Swiss franks initially, but then later on all the amounts were converted

12 into Croatian dinar. So all the amounts in this report are in Croatian

13 dinar.

14 Q. You mean except where they say specifically say German

15 deutschemarks or American dollars or Swiss franks or Austrian shillings.

16 A. They are converted as well, sir. This is not a case where

17 268.000.000 marks was withdrawn but, rather, 268.000.000 Croatian dinars.

18 When you convert it, you see that it's about 60.000 marks.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.

20 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise. If I may intervene to

21 assist. Would you please look at the top of this list. I think that

22 would clarify Mr. Scott's question. It says here: "The structure of

23 revenue from the 1st of January, 1993 until the 31st of December expressed

24 in Croatian dinars, but received in different currencies."

25 This is what the witness is saying, and this is what the document

Page 23608

1 reflects as well. All the amounts in the document are expressed in

2 Croatian dinar.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think it looks quite clear.

4 In the chart we have in front us, everything is denominated in Croatian

5 dinars, but some amounts have been paid in foreign currency. The Catholic

6 parish of Lausanne has paid the money in Swiss franks, but the Swiss

7 franks have been converted to Croatian dinars. Is that right, Witness?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour. In

9 bookkeeping, there are synthetic accounts and analytical accounts. In

10 synthetic accounts, you have an amount of 185 billion and some millions.

11 That's synthetic account, and it reflects revenue. And, in analytical

12 accounts, you can see the breakdown, where it actually says, Miro raised

13 and provided this much, and Pero provided this much.

14 I'm now simplifying it. But in the analytical account, you can

15 see the breakdown. You can see exactly what the revenue was.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I was simply trying to be

18 very clear about some numbers at the end of the document. I'm sorry if

19 I'm the own one who may have had some confusion. I apologise, but I thank

20 the witness for the answer.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I'd like to thank you for

24 having come to testify on the request of the Prosecution. I wish you a

25 safe journey home.

Page 23609

1 You have raised your hand. What would you like to say?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't come here at

3 the invitation of the Prosecution. I came pursuant to the order of the

4 Chamber. I was subpoenaed here, and this is how I came to be here.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. That goes without saying,

6 but, initially, the Prosecutor had asked you to come. It wasn't the

7 Defence, and it wasn't the Trial Chamber either.

8 So I wish you a safe journey home, and I wish you well in the

9 future also. It is somewhat uncertain, given your past history, but you

10 should be able to start on a new journey in your professional -- in a

11 professional environment soon.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as next week is

14 concerned.

15 Mr. Scott how are things going to unfold next week?

16 MR. SCOTT: We have one witness which will again take up the week,

17 or at least some part of it. As we see today, it might -- you know, we

18 may finish by Wednesday if we don't go into Thursday day, but we are

19 arranged. We do have a witness arranged.

20 I do have one other matter, Your Honour, again, just in terms of

21 all the outstanding paperwork. Earlier this week, Your Honour, responses

22 were filed by the Defence to the Heliodrom 92 bis motion and also to an

23 earlier motion concerning approximately, I don't have the exact number in

24 my mind, but approximately 300 documents. We, the Prosecution, would like

25 to have and ask to have until the 22nd of October to reply.

Page 23610

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, did you get up to

2 discuss this or something else?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: No. If it were up to me, I would grant the

4 request.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So your wishes have

6 come true because the Trial Chamber grants you until the 22nd of October,

7 Mr. Scott.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Just very quickly, Your Honours. There was --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very quickly, because we've

10 overstepped our time. Please quickly.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: On the 27th of September, 2007, in the Prosecutor

12 versus Perisic case, there was a decision that came down regarding the

13 Defence's request for -- for a B/C/S transcript of the accused's statement

14 in that case. Judge Robinson ordered that the Prosecution provide a B/C/S

15 version of the transcript given that the Prosecution in that case, as in

16 this case, is attempting to use that -- that interview as part of their

17 case.

18 I would, at this point in time, I'm making an oral application for

19 an order to the Prosecution to transcribe the -- the interview, given that

20 as it was stated by Judge Robinson that -- that this is an obligation that

21 the Prosecution cannot be relieved of, especially given the magnitude and

22 importance of the -- of what is at stake. The accused is entitled to have

23 this sort of document in his or her own language. So I ask for an order.

24 You know, I don't need it right now, but at some point I wish for the

25 Trial Bench to order the Prosecution to commence with the translation of

Page 23611

1 it.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I am discovering

3 this.

4 Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Two brief responses, Your Honours. Of course, the

6 Chamber should be aware that this was a videotaped, this was a videotaped

7 interview, and a full set of the videotapes were not only given to the

8 Defence in connection with disclosure in this case, but were given to

9 Mr. Prlic back at the original date when the statement was taken.

10 So all the -- all the questions and answers in Croatian or B/C/S,

11 whichever term one wants to use, are available to -- to Mr. Prlic in his

12 own language; in fact, his own words. You can hear his own words on the

13 videotape, and we have provided that a long time ago.

14 I think a number of Chambers - I didn't anticipate this question

15 being raised by Mr. Karnavas. I'm not complaining - but I believe it's

16 been a long-standing practice in a number of Chambers that the provision

17 of a recording satisfies the requirement to provide it in a language the

18 accused understands. Number one.

19 Number two, Your Honour, if the Chamber wants a hard copy B/C/S

20 translation to be prepared, we can certainly refer that to CLSS. I have

21 no idea when they will be able to get to it.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, in the Perisic case, it was

23 videotapes. I am sure Mr. Scott knows or should have known about it.

24 That's number one. And number two, it's quite clear the obligations of --

25 of the Prosecution concerning this sort of -- this sort of matter.

Page 23612

1 Now, we have made a request. The registry pointed us to this --

2 to this decision and asked that the Trial Chamber issue an order, and so

3 we are asking for an order. We're asking that this be done by December,

4 by December 13th. And if the Prosecution has to hire outside sources to

5 do it, they should do it. They have a war chest, a war chest.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 MR. STEWART: I hope this is helpful. In the Krajisnik case, it

9 isn't a translation that is required. It is just a transcription. So the

10 task is less actually less daunting, and, therefore, there is all the more

11 reason why Mr. Karnavas's application should be granted.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As the Chamber will

13 meet in a few minutes' time, we will deliberate and let you know what

14 decision we take.

15 We shall adjourn and meet again on Monday at a quarter past 2.00.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day

18 of October, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.