Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23743

1 Tuesday, 16 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed. I'm

6 going to ask the registrar to call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning everyone

8 in the court. This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

9 et al. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On this Tuesday, the 16th of

11 October, 2007, the Chamber wishes to greet representatives of the

12 Prosecution, the ladies and gentlemen of the Defence counsel, and the

13 accused. I do not wish to omit our interpreters who are assisting us.

14 It was my understanding that Mr. Scott needed a few minutes to

15 intervene. Mr. Scott, I give you the floor.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning, Mr. President.

17 Good morning to each of Your Honours. Good morning to all those in and

18 around the courtroom.

19 Just one moment just to clarify something that was said yesterday.

20 On the 10th of October at -- 2007 at page 23609 of the transcript

21 last week, the Prosecution specifically asked for leave to reply to the

22 Heliodrom 92 bis motion reply filed -- response filed by the Defence and

23 also a document motion involving some 398 documents. At that time, and

24 Mr. Karnavas speaking at least for himself, if not the Defence as a whole,

25 indicated there was no objection from the Defence side, and after the

Page 23744

1 Chamber consulted with each other the Judges consulted with each other our

2 request was granted. That request was not, not a request for extension of

3 time to file a request for leave to reply, it was the request for leave to

4 reply and to file our response by the 22nd of October. That motion was

5 granted and we've gone forward on that basis.

6 Your Honour, it's not -- if I can be very transparent and candid,

7 the Prosecution does not have the time, despite other things that are

8 sometimes said in the courtroom, the Prosecution does not have resources

9 or time to waste on filings that are not going to be received. That's why

10 we asked for permission, leave, before we spend the time, the days and

11 hours to prepare a document. And, Your Honour, that's why we've asked for

12 it, that's why we think it would be appropriate. We understand that there

13 are times when there are written motions. The practice has been in some

14 instances to file written motions, but at the same time there is no motion

15 in the rules that cannot be made orally. All parties, the Defence, the

16 Prosecution at times have made oral submissions in the interest of

17 efficiency. Everyone is very busy right now, both the Prosecution and the

18 Defence, and, Your Honour, again Prosecution -- I'm certainly not

19 interested in having my team to spend time on preparing filings that will

20 not be accepted.

21 We think the Chamber will be assisted by our filing. Both filings

22 are substantial. One involves the Heliodrom 92 bis motion with a number

23 of witnesses involved. The document motion involves 398 documents. The

24 Defence have made specific responses on a document by document basis in

25 most instances. Of course the Prosecution can't know, the Prosecution

Page 23745

1 cannot know the Defence objection, specific objections, particular

2 objections, until the Defence filing is made and it's only now that we can

3 make a reply to those particular objections. We think with all respect we

4 should have the opportunity to do so. We also submit that it will assist

5 the Chamber. The Chamber I would hope would find itself assisted by as

6 much information on these matters as possible.

7 So, Your Honour, I just wanted to clarify the situation. We ask

8 for leave to file our reply to both Defence responses on Monday, the 22nd.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: If I could be of assistance, Mr. President. That

10 was my understanding as well, which is why I said if it was up to me I

11 would -- I would grant the motion. So I concur with Mr. Scott.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's fine. Regarding this

13 procedural issue, the Chamber, which was orally informed of a request for

14 an extension of time, after reviewing the matter realised that after this

15 oral request you did not indicate the exceptional circumstances motivating

16 the right to reply, because as you know, we have already decided to

17 prevent responses except in exceptional circumstances, and these

18 exceptional circumstances need to be indicated and elaborated.

19 As you said quite clearly, this is a motion. This was pursuant to

20 92 bis concerning 398 documents. The Defence has replied, and you wish to

21 respond in relation to the position of the Defence, and it is this

22 response that we wish to justify by exceptional circumstances. That is

23 what the whole debate is about.

24 Mr. Scott.

25 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I have to say I find that

Page 23746

1 particular rule not just this Chamber, that particular rule in general, to

2 be one of the most annoying and I think unjustified rules of the Tribunal.

3 It seems to me quite a silly rule that each party whether it's the

4 Prosecution or Defence, the moving party, in virtually every system I'm

5 aware of has a right to reply, and I thought this rule in this institution

6 was quite misguided.

7 Having said that, Your Honour, I think I just indicated what I

8 believe the justification, whatever you want to call it, exceptional

9 circumstances, justification are. These are voluminous motions. It

10 involved a lot of effort on all sides including the Defence. The

11 Prosecution cannot know what the Defence positions will be until the

12 Defence filings are made. There have indeed been a number of instances in

13 the past where once objections have been made positions have been

14 modified, some exhibits have been withdrawn, redactions have been made, et

15 cetera. We cannot do that until we have the specific Defence reply. So

16 we believe, Your Honour, that there is justification, call it exceptional

17 or not, but there is justification for the Chamber to receive the

18 Prosecution's submissions, that the Chamber would be assisted by the

19 Prosecution's submissions, and these very voluminous and somewhat complex

20 filings. That's our basis for justification. That's our basis for asking

21 for -- to file our replies on Monday.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have just

23 further explained the exceptional circumstances. So let us now continue

24 with the cross-examination of the witness. We will bring the witness in,

25 who is waiting.

Page 23747

1 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. While that's happening,

2 though, I must with all respect persist. My point is I'm not going to

3 have our lawyers prepare submissions, spend days preparing submissions

4 that will not be accepted. So I'm asking for a ruling from the Court so

5 that I can assign my resources efficiently and prudently to prepare a

6 submission.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll tell you shortly. After

9 we resume the hearing, we will inform you of our decision and ruling.

10 [The witness entered court]


12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Commandant. I

13 hope you had a good evening last night. Your cross-examination will be

14 continued now this morning, and I therefore give the floor to

15 Mr. Karnavas.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, and for time purposes,

17 time allocation purposes, I understand I used I think 21 -- 29 minutes, 29

18 minutes yesterday, so I have 31 minutes left of my own. I have all of

19 Mr. Pusic's time and all of Mr. Coric's time so I believe it will be this

20 session plus a little bit into the next session.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning. How are you?

24 Q. I trust you had a restful evening?

25 A. Not too bad. Thank you.

Page 23748

1 Q. Did we take our jog in the morning?

2 A. No, in the afternoon hopefully today.

3 Q. Okay. Good. Now I'm going to ask that you slow down, pause,

4 because the interpreters yesterday had a very difficult time. I'm to

5 blame partly but some blame rests on you as well, so please pause.

6 Now, I want to go back to where you more or less ended yesterday

7 on direct and pick up on that issue with respect to the map versus the

8 chart or the drawing. Okay? Are you with me?

9 A. I am, yes.

10 Q. And I just want to make sure because representations were made by

11 Mr. Stringer, the Prosecutor, where he indicated, and I quote:

12 "What I can tell the Trial Chamber is that we informed the Defence

13 by letter over the weekend of the change or correction, if you will, to

14 the witness statement. So counsel was informed about it yesterday."

15 That's what Mr. Stringer represented to counsel and to the Trial

16 Chamber.

17 Let me finish my question, sir, before you intervene.

18 Now, in looking at what I received on 14 October 2007, I see that

19 there are corrections to 16 paragraphs, 11 different entries. They have

20 references to the paragraphs, but to the paragraph in question, which I

21 believe is paragraph 47, there is no entry. So my question, sir, is:

22 When did you bring this to the -- to the Prosecutor's attention?

23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President --

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Is there an objection? If there's an objection,

25 I'd like to know the basis for it.

Page 23749

1 MR. STRINGER: I was mistaken when I told the Trial Chamber

2 yesterday that that item was included in the letter that went to the

3 Defence, and I apologise for the mistake. This particular issue is in my

4 letter. It's obviously not in the witness's letter. My letter to the

5 Defence did not include this change or clarification, whatever you want to

6 call it, in his witness statement. So I was mistaken when I said that,

7 Mr. President. I didn't have the letter with me, and I apologise to the

8 Trial Chamber and also to counsel for that, because it was my mistake.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Apology accepted.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.


12 Q. All right. Well, let's stick with this a little bit then. When

13 you met with the Prosecutor, according to your testimony yesterday, you

14 indicated that a drawing was shown to you, and I'm referring to page 99

15 for those who wish to refer to yesterday's transcript, and it begins more

16 or less on -- the question is on line 13, but you said that "Yes, it was a

17 drawing. I said before it was a map. In fact, it was just a simple

18 drawing of a circle with a line down through the middle, and on one side

19 we had Muslims, and on the other side we had Croats." And as you said,

20 the Muslims -- sorry, you correct yourself, "Sorry, and the Serbs and the

21 third party were not there."

22 And I think from reading this, what you were trying to convey, if

23 I'm not mistaken, that there was a circle. On the one side you got

24 Croats, on the other side you got Serbs, and there was nothing there for

25 the Muslims. Is that correct?

Page 23750

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Okay. Now, let me walk back with -- take you back to the time

3 that you gave your statement. Your statement was given, as I understand

4 it, over a two-day period back in, if I can get it here for a second, back

5 in -- on the 25th and 26th of May, 2004; correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. May I ask where that statement was, where you physically were at

8 the time?

9 A. Yeah. Army headquarters in Dublin.

10 Q. Okay. So you were in your home country.

11 A. Yes, Ireland, yes.

12 Q. Okay. And so you weren't going anywhere?

13 A. As in?

14 Q. Like you were in a hurry in a sense?

15 A. No, no. No, no.

16 Q. You weren't pressed for time?

17 A. I was busy.

18 Q. Well, we're all busy.

19 A. We're all busy, exactly, yeah.

20 Q. But you managed to set aside two days and in fact, if the

21 Prosecutor wanted a third day certainly, surely, the Irish military would

22 have allowed you to have one extra day to sit with the Office of the

23 Prosecution investigators?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Correct?

Page 23751

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. My point being that you were not in a rush.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Okay. You spoke English?

5 A. I speak English.

6 Q. You were speaking at the time English?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. When you were doing your interview?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And even though you were speaking with a Dutch investigator

11 working for the office of the Prosecution, he spoke English as well?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. You understood his English?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. In fact he speaks fluently?

16 A. Excellent.

17 Q. Excellent. Okay. So there was no miscommunication, nothing lost

18 in translation as they would say. You're shaking your head?

19 A. I agree.

20 Q. Okay. Remember, we have to pause, okay?

21 Now, I take it before he arrived he informed you what the nature

22 of his visit was.

23 A. He did.

24 Q. And he told you, perhaps, exactly what he was interested in

25 discussing in detail. In other words, he gave you topics or at least the

Page 23752

1 substance of what he wanted you to think about, maybe even look at your

2 own records, see if you had any documents, so you could prepare in advance

3 of his arrival; correct?

4 A. Excuse me. What I -- what I was told to prepare was my

5 experiences from the period of time I served as -- as part of the ECMM.

6 Q. Okay. Now, did he ask you to prepare a written document,

7 something that you would submit to him as your faithful account of the

8 events as you had remembered them, or was it simply for you to review some

9 documents, think about it, let it brew in your head, and perhaps when he

10 came you would just simply have a question-answer session with him?

11 A. The latter.

12 Q. The latter. Okay. And in the meantime, you had an opportunity to

13 look at the indictment as well; correct?

14 A. Can you define what you mean by that?

15 Q. Well, you knew that the reason that he was asking you to be

16 interviewed was with respect to a particular indictment that had been

17 issued by the Office of the Prosecution; correct?

18 A. I don't actually remember that.

19 Q. Okay. Well, did you read the indictment?

20 A. At that time?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. Does that mean possibly yes, possibly no?

24 A. Possibly yes, possibly no, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Did he in advance advise you of the personalities that he

Page 23753

1 was interested in discussing with you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. But at some point you did read the indictment?

4 A. At some stage.

5 Q. Okay. Now, this interview was not tape recorded?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Okay. Even though I suspect that tape recorders were available in

8 case the Office of the Prosecution had failed to pack it along with his

9 other ten essentials, a tape recording would have been available

10 compliments of the Irish army in the event he wished to have a precise

11 account of what questions were asked and what answers were given?

12 A. Fine. It's matter for him, not for me.

13 Q. I'm just asking you.

14 A. Was there a tape recorder available?

15 Q. Yeah.

16 A. Anything's available.

17 Q. Okay. And I take it he never made the suggestion of tape

18 recording it and neither did you?

19 A. He certainly didn't make the suggestion. I didn't either, because

20 I presumed that he was the expert at what he was doing and this was the

21 SOP procedure. The standard operational procedure.

22 Q. All right. Okay, and so over a period of two days you had a

23 conversation with him, and afterwards he presented you with a document

24 which was purportedly what exactly you had told him, a faithful, true,

25 accurate, and complete account of all of the events which you had

Page 23754

1 discussed.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, remember I asked you before whether you had an opportunity,

4 whether you were in a rush, and you said no. If you needed an extra day,

5 surely the army would have given you that extra day. So my question is:

6 Did he give you an opportunity to read the statement which he had typed up

7 as your account prior to you -- or did he give you an opportunity to read

8 it? Let's --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the purpose for reading it was to make sure it was true,

13 accurate, and complete; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In fact, he probably told you - and if he didn't shame on him -

16 but he probably told you that if you find any errors, correct them.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if you remember anything that you failed to mention, mention

19 it so that it can be incorporated.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. I take it you read it.

22 A. I read it.

23 Q. Now, you're a military officer. You're shaking your head.

24 A. I'm sorry. I am.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

Page 23755


2 Q. We have to slow down.

3 A. Yes.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.


6 Q. Now, you're a military officer, and I suspect that you have

7 subordinates?

8 A. I have.

9 Q. And you have superiors?

10 A. I have.

11 Q. And as I understand it, superiors issue orders; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And subordinates occasionally, depending on their position, may

14 have to write reports and to send them up to their superiors.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And over the period of your distinguished career as a military

17 officer, you have -- you've had the occasion to do both. In other words,

18 write reports for your superiors, issue orders to your subordinates?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I take when you do write a report or you do issue a order, you

21 sign it.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you sign it or before signing it you make sure, because

24 you are a meticulous man, I can just see that even just from the way you

25 dress, that you make sure that what you are signing, because you are

Page 23756

1 putting your imprimatur on that, you're vouching for the authenticity and

2 the reliability, the veracity of everything that is in that document, you

3 read it carefully to make sure that it is true, accurate and complete;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And I take it because of your long-standing practice, your

7 experience and the type of person who you are, you did that in this

8 instance?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And in fact, in fact, the procedure as such as I understand

11 it and as we can see from the statement, that with each page after reading

12 it you initial it?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And that's what you did in this case?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And after reading it thoroughly you signed it?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. All right. And might I say one more thing. Is it possible that

19 the gentleman, Mr. Spork, who wrote this out and which you proof-read and

20 signed as being a true, accurate, and complete version of the events, did

21 he say to you by any chance, "Mr. Lane, if you think of anything later on,

22 don't hesitate to bring it to our attention. Here's my visiting card"?

23 A. I don't recollect that.

24 Q. Okay. Might I say that, however, being the person that you are,

25 had you come up with anything new after reminiscing and going over these

Page 23757

1 events, you would not have hesitated to contact the Prosecution.

2 A. When I signed that document, my experiences in 1992 were probably

3 dramatic as you probably gauged from me. When I signed that document in

4 1992 there was some closure in it.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I felt quite relieved at finally putting something on paper.

7 Q. But that's not my question though. And you're eating up my time.

8 A. Sorry about.

9 Q. My question is: Had something new popped into your mind, like you

10 said, you were jogging in Scheveningen, it was probably a lovely day --

11 A. To answer your question, yes.

12 Q. See, there you go. It's not too difficult. Now, there are

13 reasons why I'm asking you this, because at least to start with, as I

14 indicated before, there were 16 paragraphs of which you wanted to make

15 corrections to, and 11 different entries, starting with, starting with,

16 and this is what caught my attention, to be honest, you know, and I'm a

17 little concerned here, is starting with your own rank. You were put down

18 as a commander. You signed it that that was a true, accurate and complete

19 description of your rank, and yet now you say to us that you are a

20 commandant. Is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. All right. There is a distinction. Otherwise, would you not have

23 made that correction; right?

24 A. My rank is commandant.

25 Q. Okay. All right. But obviously you didn't pick that when you --

Page 23758

1 picked that up when you were reading, proof-reading this.

2 A. Obviously.

3 Q. Okay. And that might account why there was some other errors as

4 well?

5 A. Well, I think I'd like to make a comment about that. I was aware

6 that when I came here to proof-read over the weekend I thought the purpose

7 of the proof-read was to do what I did do, find errors that might have

8 been in the document that I might have missed back in 2004.

9 Q. Okay. Well, how could you miss -- I mean, I've got to tell you

10 how can you miss --

11 A. Well, let me --

12 Q. -- your own rank?

13 A. Or maybe I decided at that particular time that it wasn't a major

14 issue and to leave it as it was.

15 Q. But you told us earlier that he gave you the opportunity to read

16 it to make sure that it was accurate?

17 A. Absolutely, but I'm saying --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. But I might have considered it not that important.

20 Q. Okay, okay, fair enough, fair enough. I'm going to skip ahead a

21 little bit because I want to get where we started off because there are

22 some other issues in this particular document, but I want to go to

23 paragraph 47. And first I'm going to focus on the very narrow issue that

24 we talked about. Yesterday, you told -- you told us under oath that you

25 recall that you were shown a drawing of a circle, and it was just for

Page 23759

1 Croats and Serbs. In your statement, you say on paragraph 47, I'm just

2 going to read the relevant portion:

3 "In discussions I held with Mr. Prlic at the time indicated -- at

4 the time indicated his view on this tactic. He showed me a map of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina divided in half with little room for the Muslim

6 population."

7 Now, let's dissect this a little bit. You're saying after

8 proof-reading this that he showed you a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not a

9 drawing; correct? That's what you said?

10 A. In the statement, yes.

11 Q. All right, and you're a military man and as I understand it I

12 haven't served in the military, I wish I had, but I haven't, but as I

13 understand, folks like you have a deep and abiding appreciate for maps.

14 A. I don't think that's quite true. Officers don't.

15 Q. So you don't?

16 A. No. I'm in jest. They say one of the most dangerous things that

17 you can find is an army officer with a map in his hand.

18 Q. Okay. All right. I mean, that's something that would stick out

19 to you if you were looking at this map. That's why I mentioned it, you

20 see?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You see, we're getting somewhere. And here you say it was divided

23 in half with little room for the Muslim population and at least from --

24 when I read it seems at least this map, assuming it existed and assuming

25 that this -- this indeed occurred with Mr. Prlic and not somebody else,

Page 23760

1 and we'll get to that, over here it says, at least the way I read it, that

2 there was some room for the Muslim population. So it wasn't just half for

3 the Serbs, half for the Croats. You're shaking your head?

4 A. I'm sorry, yes.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Yes, yes, yes.

7 Q. I take it this was -- you're claiming that this -- when you say

8 that this meeting took place you don't recall when it occurred.

9 A. When, no.

10 Q. You claim that -- you believe that it occurred in his office.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Was -- this would have been the office in the Ero hotel

13 or --

14 A. No.

15 Q. -- this is the other place.

16 A. Rondo.

17 Q. All right. Was anybody with you at the time?

18 A. Well --

19 Q. It's a yes or no?

20 A. No, it's not a yes or no.

21 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Hold on.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Let me ask the question again.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Was anybody with you at the time? Now there not too many

Page 23761

1 possibilities in the universe of answers?

2 A. I feel --

3 Q. It's yes or no?

4 A. I feel there was.

5 Q. You feel?

6 A. There was.

7 Q. Okay. Is that sort of like I don't know, perhaps, maybe, take a

8 guess?

9 A. Well, maybe I could say something.

10 Q. No, no, no, no, you answer my questions.

11 A. Ask me the question again.

12 Q. When you say you feel, okay, is that in other words you're saying

13 I don't know, I don't recollect?

14 A. No. What I'm saying is I am not sure.

15 Q. Okay. So it could be either one. Either, yes, there was or

16 either no, there wasn't.

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. Okay. Yet, you recall this vividly after jogging on the beach you

19 recall, you know, the map versus the drawing but yet you don't recall

20 whether somebody was present in the room?

21 A. Well --

22 Q. Okay. Very well.

23 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I don't think the witness

24 was able to give his answer to the last question there. He started to say

25 well and then was cut off.

Page 23762

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Well -- well, I paused and allowed him -- there was

2 a pause and it was pregnant.

3 THE WITNESS: As I said to you yesterday due to these proceedings

4 here and the questioning, obviously parts of the brain that have been dead

5 for many years in relation to Bosnia come alive again, and yesterday while

6 I was considering this I remembered that we had a visit in Bosnia or in

7 Herzegovina from a journalist from the BBC called Orla Guerin.

8 Orla Guerin was taken by me to visit Mr. Prlic, and in that discussion

9 this question of the map or the drawing came up.


11 Q. Okay. All right.

12 A. And I just want to make a point there.

13 Q. So not?

14 A. No, just a second please.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. The events I'm talking about happened 15 years ago.

17 Q. My point.

18 A. 15 years ago is a long time. As I said a lot of water went under

19 the bridge since then and as going through this procedure things are

20 coming into my mind that I've forgotten about.

21 Q. Okay. All right.

22 A. Other areas of particular interest which are not discussed in my

23 testimony have come to the fore in the last day or two.

24 Q. Okay, all right, point made. You made it yesterday, you made it

25 again today. Let's hope that we don't have to make it again.

Page 23763

1 A. Well, it's a very important point.

2 Q. All right well I understand your memory is like fine French wine.

3 It gets better with time, it seems to me.

4 A. My wife thinks my memory doesn't get better with time. It goes

5 the opposite direction.

6 Q. All right. Well, that's my point as well.

7 A. Fine.

8 Q. Okay, now. When you gave this statement to Mr. Spork, did he ask

9 you for this map? Yes or no?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Okay. Well don't you think if he was a good investigator he would

12 say, well, did you get a copy of the map --

13 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Mr. Karnavas, I missed the foundation. Did the

14 witness ever possess this paper? Did he take it along? Was it ever in

15 his hands?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going step-by-step.

17 JUDGE TRECHSEL: No. You are jumping ahead because you're asking

18 him whether he was asked to give it along. I think you are jumping a bit

19 but...

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, thank you.


22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you for those instructions but as I've

23 indicated -- anyway I don't want to -- I don't want to get into a debate,

24 Your Honour, you seem to constantly wish to instruct me on

25 cross-examination and I take those instructions very well.

Page 23764

1 Q. This map or drawing, did you ever ask, I was going to get there

2 but let me get to it now, did you ever ask Mr. Prlic to give it to you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. And is there a particular reason why you didn't ask

5 Mr. Prlic to give you this drawing, especially if it was a drawing, a mere

6 drawing, did you ask him especially since - let me finish - one of your

7 jobs, one of your tasks, at least what you have claimed, was to provide

8 information to your superiors?

9 A. No, I didn't. I didn't. Again, from what I remember I didn't ask

10 for it and I didn't try and procure it, no.

11 Q. Okay. I take it, however, since this was vital information, at

12 least vital enough to give it to Carry Spork and then have your memory

13 revived on the beaches of Scheveningen to make the change that it wasn't a

14 map but rather a drawing, that this would have been important information

15 that you would have wanted to sure with your superiors, so obviously you

16 must have put this into one of your reports?

17 A. I would say I did.

18 Q. Can you produce it?

19 A. I can't, and as I said yesterday, part of my function was to

20 produce weekly reports from my office back to RC Split which I did every

21 week. I don't know where these reports are. I do not have them.

22 Q. All right. So I take it the best that we have is your account,

23 what might have been a four eyes, four ears meeting; correct?

24 A. That's where we stand.

25 Q. Okay. All right. And just one last point, I know you didn't ask

Page 23765

1 for the map or the drawing, we don't have any report, but I'm just

2 curious, as meticulous as you are in writing reports and in issuing

3 orders, not being rushed, how is it that you didn't pick up this piece of

4 information, this -- this change? How is it that you could confuse a map

5 of a country with a simple drawing with a circle on it? How is it that

6 you didn't pick it up back then?

7 A. First of all, I don't know whoever said I was meticulous.

8 Q. Well, I thought you admitted that.

9 A. No, you said I was meticulous. You said I appeared --

10 Q. Okay, so you're saying --?

11 A. I'm not saying that but I just --

12 Q. Well, what are you saying?

13 A. You're saying I'm meticulous and you don't know me.

14 Q. Are you withdrawing that? Are you denying that?

15 A. I'm not. I'm just saying it's interesting to hear a person who

16 doesn't know me make that comment about me.

17 Q. Well, are you or are you not?

18 A. Meticulous?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I'm professional army.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down for the interpreters.


23 Q. What does it mean?

24 A. It means I do my job to the best of my ability in a professional

25 manner.

Page 23766

1 Q. Okay all right. Now let's move on a little bit. And I want too

2 talk to you a little bit about this report. So let's just stay with

3 this -- this paragraph because I want -- I was also curious when you said

4 that in the beginning of it during the period "the self-styled government

5 of Herceg-Bosna". Were those your words or were those the words of

6 Mr. Spork?

7 A. No, they -- that term was actually used in 1992.

8 Q. Used by whom?

9 A. By the EEC -- by the European Community Monitoring Mission.

10 Q. So that means you would have been using that as well?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Okay, well, could you please - I know we touched on it yesterday -

13 but could you please describe how the self-styled government functioned,

14 since you were there and you were supposed on it monitoring this

15 self-styled government?

16 A. Can you -- can you expand on your question.

17 Q. Well, you claimed that it was self-styled because that's what you

18 dubbed it?

19 A. No, no, no. I --

20 Q. You said it was a government?

21 A. No, I didn't dub it that that's the terminology that was used in

22 1992.

23 Q. Okay, well, your organisation dubbed it; right?

24 A. Yep, yep.

25 Q. You got a briefing before you went in country?

Page 23767

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Now, granted yesterday you told us for all intents and purposes

3 there was no briefing other than there's the way to Bosnia, good luck;

4 correct?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. All right. And in fact in your statement the briefing was all

7 about more or less a -- a turf battle between you and this other gentleman

8 as to who would head the mission?

9 A. No. That's the way you read it or if that's the way it came

10 across, that's not actually the truth of the issue.

11 Q. All right, but getting back to paragraph 47?

12 A. Mm-hmm.

13 Q. You chose these words "self-styled government of Herceg-Bosna".

14 So we talk of -- we have three things that I'm interested in talking

15 about. One, the word "self-styled" or that term "self-styled". Second,

16 government. Third, Herceg-Bosna. Okay, so one would imagine that if the

17 organisation you were working for and is using these terms and you were in

18 a sort of a leadership position, albeit not at the very top, but you were

19 nonetheless you were managing folks, and you were there and you want to

20 describe to the -- to this court what exactly you learned and we're going

21 to get to that, what is your understanding of the self-styled government

22 of Herceg-Bosna? What is your -- how does it work? What is it? Where is

23 it? What do you know about it?

24 A. The from what I garnered on the ground, the HVO, the HVO were a

25 political/military organisation which attempted to govern the entity

Page 23768

1 that -- that the Bosnian Croats lived in.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. It appeared to me that the -- that the people at the top of this

4 organisation, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic, and the rest were the leaders in this

5 organisation and were directing the lives, if you like, of these people,

6 of the Bosnian Croats.

7 Q. All right. And did they give you a map?

8 A. Did who give me a map.

9 Q. The ECMM. Did they give you a map of where Herceg-Bosna is

10 because you said entity?

11 A. Yep.

12 Q. Okay, so I take it they must have given you a map to say, by the

13 way, when you go into country just so you know here are the borders of

14 Herceg-Bosna.

15 A. No, I can't remember did we get a map or not.

16 Q. Okay. Did you ask for one?

17 A. No. Again I can't remember.

18 Q. Okay. Do you think you might have asked for one being the nature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Being the nature of the --

21 A. Possibility.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I'm going to go to another paragraph, so

23 we're going to stick with this whole notion [Realtime transcript read in

24 error "motion"] of government and what it means. You indicated yesterday

25 that one of the first persons you met was Mr. Boban.

Page 23769

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. Okay. In fact you said and I have it here, it's on page 28, "I

3 met Mr. Boban in Grude with the mayor of Grude, Maric, Jozo Maric," and I

4 see that in your statement you couldn't remember the gentleman's name, I

5 take it --

6 A. [Overlapping speakers] That's correct.

7 Q. -- that's one of the things that came back to you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you said, yep, in fact he possibly was -- "as a mark of

10 respect to him I think he was the first person I went to visit"?

11 JUDGE PRANDLER: Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas.


13 JUDGE PRANDLER: You said probably that on page 28.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: 28, line 22 there was starting with line 20, Your

15 Honour. I can read the whole thing.

16 JUDGE PRANDLER: Because I do not find 28.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Of the transcript yesterday.

18 JUDGE PRANDLER: Okay, thank you.

19 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Sorry, talking about the transcript, I think you

20 were talking about the whole page 26, line 14. The whole notion of

21 government like in Nick and not like in madam, notion of government here

22 it reads motion and that's --

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Notion, notion.


25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

Page 23770

1 Q. Now, and then you say out of respect he was the first person to

2 visit. Then the next question is: "Do you recall at this point what his

3 functional role was?" That's the question. I'm pausing here.

4 Answer: "Except -- no, but he was obviously the important man."

5 A. Hmm.

6 Q. Okay?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. So I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Somebody must

9 have told you go see Mate Boban?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. He's an important man.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, did that person, whoever that person might have been or

14 wherever you got this information, did they tell you go see Mate Boban

15 because he is the man?

16 A. I would -- yes, I can see your point. I think by virtue of the

17 fact that I went to see him first would indicate that he was the man.

18 Q. Okay. Now, one would presume that since you were there to gather

19 information both about the political and military structures and the who's

20 who and to find out where the leverages of powers were in order to do your

21 job, when meeting Mr. Boban did you ask him to explain to you how this

22 self-styled government of Herceg-Bosna functioned, what it entailed, where

23 it was located, who were the personalities, you know, what municipalities

24 were included, if any, how were the municipalities governed, who was in

25 charge of the military, to what -- what role he played?

Page 23771

1 Did any of those questions pop up during this meeting or any other

2 meeting for that matter with Mr. Boban, the most important person that you

3 were interviewing?

4 A. It was difficult to obtain information from Mr. Boban to put it

5 mildly, but he would spend a lot -- a significant amount of time talking

6 about what the -- the EC should do for him.

7 Q. Okay. But, see, that's not the answer.

8 A. Well, the answer to your question is no, I did not get that

9 information.

10 Q. Okay. You see, we'll get along much better if you just cut to the

11 quick, answer my question --

12 A. Well, it's important to put a picture on the whole thing, you

13 know.

14 Q. But I'm not cutting you off.

15 A. No, I appreciate that.

16 Q. But I'm sort of like a military man too when I'm in court, I like

17 a direct answer, okay, and I'm sure your superiors have told you that

18 before: Give it to me straight. So the answer is you meet with this

19 important person and you don't ask him to explain to you what the

20 self-styled government is. Instead, you're running around thereafter

21 trying to figure it out.

22 A. No, I didn't say that.

23 Q. Well, I'm saying it.

24 A. You're saying it. I'm saying I might have asked him but I didn't

25 get the information.

Page 23772

1 Q. No, before you said, no, I didn't ask him. That's the answer that

2 you gave.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Now you're back-sliding?

5 A. I'm not back-sliding at all.

6 MR. STRINGER: Objection, Mr. President. This is now degenerating

7 into an argument, again, and the witness --

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll move on.

9 MR. STRINGER: -- said what he said and I think counsel has

10 mischaracterised it.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree. The transcript speaks for itself. He

12 indicated quite clearly that he did not ask Mr. Boban. I'll accept that.

13 MR. STRINGER: No he, did not so indicate, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.

15 Mr. Karnavas, before we proceed, Commandant, I want to go back to

16 your hearing with Mr. Spork, your interview with Mr. Spork. We know that

17 you answered the questions put to you by the interviewer for about two

18 days and the cross-examination has to do with your answers when Mr. Spork

19 interviewed you in Dublin, in the headquarters of the army. Did he have a

20 laptop with him or did he ask you questions which he would then note on a

21 document and did he then record your answers? How did this take place?

22 Was it a conversation and then he just noted your answers, he wrote down

23 your answers? Or did he ask you a question and then he typed in your

24 answers into his computer?

25 THE WITNESS: From what I remember, Your Honour, he had a laptop

Page 23773

1 computer which he used to put the answers into.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So he put questions

3 to you. You would then answer those questions. And he used his laptop to

4 type the answers into the laptop and at the end of the two-day period what

5 you spent with him, did he print out a document that was supposed to

6 contain the answers that you provided to the questions put to you?

7 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this document and

9 everyone has it, it's a 20-page document, you signed on the 26th of May,

10 2004, and counsel asked you a minute ago whether you had re-read a

11 document in fact this document. Have you re-read this document carefully?

12 THE WITNESS: I re-read it over this weekend, Your Honour, or last

13 weekend.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This weekend, but I'm not

15 talking about the past weekend. I'm talking about the 26th of May, 2004.

16 On the 26th of May, 2004, you signed this document. So Mr. Spork put your

17 answers into his computer and printed out the final document which you

18 then signed and he also signed since it consists of 19 pages or -- 19

19 pages on which we have his signature too. So after you had signed the

20 document did you read or did you re-read the 20 pages? And I'm referring

21 to the 26th of May, 2004? Did you read the entire 20-page document before

22 signing it on that date?

23 THE WITNESS: I did, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And as far as you

25 can remember, how much time did you need to read through the 20 pages? It

Page 23774

1 takes a certain amount of time. Were you alone in your office when you

2 re-read it, was Mr. Spork sitting next to you, and did he give you a pen

3 to sign the document with once you had re-read it? Do you remember how

4 this took place?

5 THE WITNESS: From my memory, I think Mr. Spork was in the same

6 room with me as I read the document.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And this document is

8 a document that you re-read this weekend. That's what you said just a

9 minute ago. And that's when you realised that this document contained

10 certain things that did not in fact correspond to the reality.

11 THE WITNESS: Before I came here, Your Honour, I gave some

12 consideration to the events of 1992 when I was in Bosnia and because I --

13 it was on my mind for -- when I returned from Afghanistan four weeks ago,

14 I gave consideration to the events of 1992, and those changes are as a

15 result of that.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Karnavas, please

17 proceed.


19 Q. Just to follow up on that series of questions, did Mr. Spork leave

20 you with a copy of your statement?

21 A. He did. He did.

22 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to where we were, you go on to say on --

23 I'm going to press you a little bit here, in paragraph 37 you say:

24 "I attended a number of meetings of the Presidency of the

25 self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. I noticed during the

Page 23775

1 meetings that Mr. Prlic was the most significant personality at these

2 meetings. Even though Mr. Boban would chair the meeting, he had very

3 little input into the deliberations."

4 Now, I want to stop and pause over the word "Presidency". You say

5 you were present at a number of meetings of the Presidency of the Croatian

6 Community of Herceg-Bosna. You stand by that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Where were these meetings of the Presidency held?

9 A. From what I can remember, they were in Grude.

10 Q. And who were the members of the Presidency?

11 A. The -- Mr. Boban, Mr. Prlic, and other -- other people who I can't

12 remember.

13 Q. Okay. What were their titles if you can remember that?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. What was the substance that was being discussed? And I take it

16 you must have taken copious notes and passed it on to your superiors of

17 which we would have these lovely reports?

18 A. Yeah, I cannot remember what the subject matter was.

19 Q. Well, did you ever ask, for instance, Mr. Prlic, who you indicated

20 yesterday and you said so in your -- in your statement that he was open to

21 wherever you wanted to see him, he never declined --

22 A. Absolutely.

23 Q. -- not to see you, he never declined to answer any of your

24 questions. Did you ever ask him what the function of this Presidency was

25 with respect to this self-styled government given that one of your

Page 23776

1 missions was there to find out about the political and military powers of

2 leverage?

3 A. The chances are, Counsel, that I did ask him but again, I cannot

4 remember.

5 Q. All right. So -- so maybe yes, maybe no?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. And of course had you asked that question, and had Mr. Boban not

8 answered the question, would you have asked Mr. Prlic?

9 A. Sorry, can you --

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. -- expand on that.

12 Q. You indicated earlier that it was very difficult to get any

13 information from Mr. Boban hence perhaps the - for lack of a better term

14 and I don't mean to be disrespectful - ignorance on your part as far as

15 how this self-styled government of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna

16 functioned and how it was structured, okay? So my question is: If you

17 could not get any answers from Mr. Boban because he seemed to be elusive,

18 did you ask Mr. Prlic? It's either a yes, no --

19 A. No.

20 Q. -- I don't recall.

21 A. I don't recall.

22 Q. Okay. And you don't recall whether you asked Mr. Prlic about

23 this -- these meetings of the Presidency?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Yet you sit here today, not knowing who attended, and you -- and

Page 23777

1 you put into your -- and you put in your statement when you spoke to

2 Mr. Spork, who obviously knows what the Presidency is having been an

3 investigator on this case for many, many, many years, okay, how is it that

4 you knew that this was -- that these were meetings of the Presidency?

5 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm going to object.

6 This is -- this issue of the Presidency meetings, it wasn't raised in the

7 direct examination, so it's not a part of the witness's evidence as far as

8 I know. Now, if we want to tender the statement into evidence so that

9 counsel can cross-examine the witness on everything in the statement,

10 those things which were raised on the direct examination as well as those

11 things that weren't, that's fine, but it seems to me to be having it both

12 ways. If he's going to cross-examine the witness on the basis of a

13 statement that he didn't even testify about in his direct examination,

14 well, let's just tender the statement itself into evidence and then --

15 then the Trial Chamber will have -- will have it all, but I think that

16 what's happening here is a bit unfair. He's cross-examining the witness

17 about something that he didn't testify about.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: May I respond.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: May I respond, Mr. President? First all, all of

21 these questions go to the gentleman's credibility, and therefore, they're

22 fair game. They're not just merely outside the scope of direct

23 examination because Mr. Stringer brought this gentleman here and asked him

24 questions. Now I'm entitled to attack his credibility, his knowledge, his

25 memory. Mr. Stringer told us today and apologised that he had learned

Page 23778

1 about this diagram which supposedly was mentioned as a map. These are all

2 relevant issues. They go to challenging the gentleman's memory and

3 veracity.

4 Now, if Mr. Stringer wanted the statement in he could have

5 tendered the statement in or he could have gone into the statement. He

6 could have gone into other areas. I don't know what his strategy is,

7 neither do I care, but this is proper cross-examination, and they can't

8 bring a witness here and expect you to listen to him on direct and then

9 there be no cross concerning issues where obviously the gentleman has

10 lapses of memory.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A reply?

12 MR. STRINGER: My reply, Mr. President, is this: The witness's

13 evidence is his testimony. Now, if we're going to make the witness's

14 evidence also his witness statement, all 24 pages of it, that's fine, and

15 I will tender it, and that way the Trial Chamber will have both the

16 statement and the witness's responses about the statement to issues which

17 were not raised in the direct examination. So that's what I'm going to

18 propose to do, is to tender the entire statement and that way we can have

19 a full record of the witness's responses.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: First of all, first of all, let me remind the Trial

21 Chamber that if the Prosecutor does that, he is reopening direct

22 examination. I don't want to give him a lesson on evidence, but obviously

23 I'm entitled to go to portions of the statement for purposes of

24 impeachment without introducing the entire statement. He knows that.

25 He's an experienced trial lawyer, both prosecution and defence. So he

Page 23779

1 knows the rules of evidence and I'm entitled to go into areas and I'm

2 entitled to ask him questions of which he spoke to the Prosecution about.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, through your

4 questions you're testing the credibility of the witness, and in doing so

5 within the framework of this test you are trying to find out whether he

6 had any knowledge about the functioning of the HVO, the Presidency,

7 Mr. Mate Boban, and you wish to question him on meetings of the

8 Presidency. Go ahead.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But --

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- Go ahead.


14 Q. Now, during that period of time did you learn anything -- I mean,

15 you mention in your statement and you probably talked to the Prosecutor

16 about this during the weekend when you were going over your statement,

17 about the Vance-Owen Peace Plan. Did conversations with respect to the

18 Vance-Owen Peace Plan come up during your conversation with the

19 Prosecutor?

20 A. It -- it was mentioned.

21 Q. And from being in the field during that period of time, you would

22 have learned of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan?

23 A. We were aware of it.

24 Q. Okay. Now when you say, "we were aware of it", that's sort of the

25 collective "we". Might I ask whether you, Commandant Ray Lane, was aware

Page 23780

1 of it?

2 A. I was not formally briefed by ECMM on it, but I became aware of

3 it -- of its existence.

4 Q. Okay. Now when you say you were not formally briefed, is there a

5 difference between briefed and formally briefed?

6 A. Formally briefed as in brought back to the regional centre in

7 Split and briefed on the contents of the Vance-Owen Plan.

8 Q. Did they -- did they ever send you the plan and say because you

9 know I understand it was in English as well, it was available in English,

10 both Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen being anglophones, did they ever provide you

11 with the Vance-Owen Peace Plan so at least you could take a look at it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ask for it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're telling us that

17 during the period from January, February, March 1993, which was the period

18 when the Vance-Owen Plan was in existence and was known, you who were

19 meeting on the ground of the head of state of a self-styled country,

20 Mr. Mate Boban, your own hierarchy never provided you with any information

21 about the contents of this plan, no information at all?

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, in January, February, and March of

23 1993, as you're aware I spent most of my time in Gornji Vakuf in that

24 difficult situation there. As I said before, we were working 13, 14 hours

25 a day. So my -- my job at that time was to try and control the situation

Page 23781

1 in Gornji Vakuf, and the Vance-Owen Peace Plan was left to the good

2 offices of Mr. Bousseau.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.


5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... That if we wanted to find out

6 exactly what his understanding was of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan and what

7 if any discussions he held with the key players at the time he would be

8 the one that we would need to bring over here?

9 A. Mr. Bousseau is an important man, yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, you -- he's an ambassador; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He would have been aware of the plan?

13 A. Oh, I'm -- absolutely.

14 Q. And I think yesterday you said at times you were accompanying him

15 at the meetings?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And I'm going to get to that one meeting on the 25th, but did you

18 ever ask him hey, ambassador -- and I take it he was a nice guy?

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Very lovely, open?

21 A. He was French.

22 Q. Well, so he was open to you?

23 A. He was a good man.

24 Q. Good man. And did you ever say to him, ambassador, explain to me

25 this Vance-Owen Peace Plan, you know, just so I know, because --

Page 23782

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. -- some of the folks that I supervise might want to know, so in

3 case it pops up. Did you ever ask him that question?

4 A. I have a recollection that he discussed the Vance -- the

5 Vance-Owen Peace Plan with me.

6 Q. And you didn't grasp it at the time and that's why you can't

7 elucidate on that?

8 A. Well, let me answer that.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I repeat that in January, February of 1993 I was extremely busy in

11 my role in Gornji Vakuf, and it -- you need to understand that this wasn't

12 a part-time job up there. This was full time, requiring all my energies

13 and direction.

14 Q. All right. Now, the events in Gornji Vakuf began sort of -- I

15 mean, there were some incidents as early as 1992; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And in the first week of January was there any

18 incidents up there?

19 A. There were some incidents.

20 Q. All right. And it's my understanding that the events in

21 Gornji Vakuf had nothing to do with the Vance-Owen Peace Plan. Would that

22 be your understanding as well?

23 A. I can't answer that. I don't know.

24 Q. You don't know?

25 A. No.

Page 23783

1 Q. All right.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Please make breaks between questions and

3 answers. Otherwise its impossible for the interpreters. Thank you.




7 Q. Now, I'm trying to find this. There is a lovely paragraph here

8 that it's -- I'm not -- I'm not quite sure. Please.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are asking you

10 to slow down. I think yesterday we beat all records. There were 130

11 pages of transcript. If we continue at this pace we're going to set

12 another record.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

14 Q. Now, you said here on paragraph 96 that: "The purpose of this

15 offensive was to consolidate the Croatian position and obtain as much

16 ground as possible before any possible peace plan. Even though we were

17 aware of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan at the time, it is unlikely that this

18 operation was affected by this plan."

19 Now, those were your words back then; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. So it would seem to me at least in reading this particular

22 paragraph what you're -- what you're saying is that this offensive

23 operation, and you indicated - and correct me if I'm wrong, I certainly

24 don't want to put words in your mouth - that the operation occurred prior

25 to the announcement of the Vance-Owen Peace Plan or prior to January 15th

Page 23784

1 that one had nothing to do with the other. Is that what you're trying to

2 say here?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That was your understanding then?

5 A. At the time, yes.

6 Q. At the time, that is when you were in the field. That was your

7 understanding in 2004. That remains to be your understanding in 2007.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, in your statement, I just wanted to cover this

10 very briefly to make sure I don't forget about it, you indicated that --

11 and this is on paragraph 102 of your statement, you had indicated that

12 on -- that you were present at a meeting where -- with Mr. Prlic and the

13 ambassador, and this would have been on January 25th, 1993. That's what

14 you told --

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. -- the investigator back then; correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. In fact, he showed you a document?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And based on that document you said and I quote: "I was shown by

21 the investigator a copy of the ECMM daily monitoring activity of the 25th

22 January 1993." And then the investigator has a little insert, and then

23 you go on to say: "I was present during this meeting and I can confirm

24 that Mr. Prlic expressed his view that he had ordered the HVO commander in

25 Gornji Vakuf to stop all attacks immediately."

Page 23785

1 This -- the document is a true and accurate reflection of what

2 occurred. That's what you told the investigator at the time.

3 A. Okay, yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, we're going to go step-by-step. Over the weekend when

5 you met with the Prosecutor, having had time to reflect in between your

6 missions, you realised that you were not present at the meeting of the

7 25th.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And so therefore you cannot vouch, assuming that's what the

10 document shows, and of course, there were two documents if you recall

11 yesterday --

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. -- where I intervened. One was, I believe it was Prosecution

14 document - let me think about it - 1303?

15 A. Hmm.

16 Q. And that's where the Prosecution skipped over. And then there was

17 a document of 1309 and that's the one that he wanted you to go to?

18 A. Yep.

19 Q. Because one summarises, albeit with some liberties, might I say,

20 the events of the 25th. Now -- so what you're telling us is at this point

21 in time is that, one, when you gave the statement in Dublin, in your

22 office with the Prosecutor where you had all the time to reflect and also

23 time to read and look at documents that were shown to you by the

24 investigator, your recollection was that you were there and of course now

25 we know thankfully, and we appreciate this and we're grateful, now we know

Page 23786

1 that what you told the -- the Prosecutor -- the investigator for the

2 Prosecution was not correct and actually the document that he did show you

3 you cannot vouch for its accuracy or its veracity; correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Okay. Might I ask, might I ask, the technique that was used, the

6 technique in trying to get information from you. Did the Prosecutor --

7 because this might assist us a little bit. In other words, did he say,

8 "Mr. Lane, what, if any, meetings did you attend at the time?" And you

9 scratched your head, maybe looked at some of your own personal documents

10 and said, "Well, I was at these sorts of meeting." Or did he show you and

11 point into particular passages of documents which might be relevant to the

12 Prosecution's theory and said, "Look at this. Look in particular here.

13 See this. Now, tell me, sir, were you at the meeting?" In other words,

14 asking a witness, you know, was the light green or red, and if it was red,

15 then obviously, you know, you might be off base, but what colour was it?

16 A. I think from what I recollect, a series of events were put in

17 front of me and had I been a part of that or not.

18 Q. Okay. Now, I want to show you a couple of documents, and I

19 mention this because I'm wondering whether the Prosecution shared with you

20 this document during the briefing session or maybe even if Mr. Spork had

21 shared this document that came from -- at least this was -- this was a

22 Prosecution document, and I'm referring to document P 01293. Now, if we

23 could be -- if you could be so kind, Mr. Usher, to provide our witness

24 with -- I just have three documents. It's a rare occasion where we only

25 have three, but such is the day.

Page 23787

1 A. Sorry, what number is it?

2 Q. 1293.

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Yep.

6 Q. You can see there's an order?

7 A. Yeah.

8 Q. If you go to the very last page you'll see that it's -- you'll see

9 that actually it's in B/C/S. That's what we call the languages for

10 shorthand, you know, Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian. And we see it's

11 handwritten. Obviously we don't see a stamp or anything like that, but

12 I'm sure in the field you've -- you've had to write out orders as such.

13 Now, did they show you this particular order, that this was -- and

14 this has already been admitted into evidence so I'm not disclosing

15 anything new to -- to the Bench, but did they had show you this order that

16 was issued by General Petkovic? And it would have been somewhere in the

17 neighbourhood of the 20th or thereafter, because if we look at paragraph

18 2, General Petkovic is quite clear.

19 "Obey in full the order of the of president of the HZ HB/Croatian

20 Community of Herceg-Bosna Mate Boban ..." Or whoever was receiving it in.

21 This case I it would have been, I believe, the people on the ground

22 including Colonel Siljeg. You know, "...dated 19 January 1993, and my

23 order of 20 January 1993." Do you see that?

24 A. I have it here in front of me.

25 Q. Okay. Was this shown to you?

Page 23788

1 A. When?

2 Q. Well, either by Mr. Spork or by Mr. Stringer to, you know, sort of

3 recollect as to who gave the order? Because it seems -- I mean, one of

4 the issues that seems that you're brought here is to talk about command

5 responsibility or superior responsibility, effective command and control

6 and communications. The three Cs.

7 A. The three Cs, yep.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. I can't remember if Mr. Spork showed me this.

10 Q. Okay. But at least from this order, assuming the order is --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One of the Judges has a

12 question.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Karnavas. This

14 refers to previous orders, but could we establish the exact date?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Mr. -- Your Honour, I see that my colleague

16 is on her feet, and I believe this might have been a document that was --

17 or my colleague can explain it.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

19 MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an order dated

20 the 24th of January, 1993. It is a document which we have under P 01286,

21 and I will be using that document. And everyone can see from the database

22 that that is the date of the document. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this

24 clarification.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Karnavas.

Page 23789


2 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you another document, and this is

3 1D 01521. 1521. I suspect we haven't seen this document, but --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. But let's look at the second page first of all.

6 A. Can I -- am I in a position to read this now?

7 Q. Well, we're going to go step-by-step. I'm going to walk you

8 through it. I'm not going to mislead you. Trust me. First, let me get

9 back -- I'm just going to get some foundational questions and I'll give

10 you -- I'll give you a chance. Okay? So are you with me?

11 A. Yes, absolutely.

12 Q. Okay. Second page. We see that this is signed in Mostar, January

13 18, 1993, and we have Mate Boban and Mile Akmadzic. Do you see that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. Okay. Now did you know who Mile Akmadzic was at the time?

16 A. I can't recollect.

17 Q. Okay. Doesn't ring a bell?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No memory at all?

20 A. No.

21 Q. It says president of the government of RBiH. What does RBiH stand

22 for? I'll give you help. Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Would that

23 be it?

24 A. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 23790

1 A. Yep, yep.

2 Q. And do you know what the president of the government, what that

3 function entails?

4 A. Of -- of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 Q. Yeah. I mean in the structure of things.

6 A. Where was he in the chain of command?

7 Q. Well, not the chain of command. I mean, how was -- what exactly

8 the function was of the president of the government. Well, let me back

9 up. Do you know any -- you told us you knew nothing about how the

10 government of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was structured. Do

11 you have any idea of how the government or how, you know, the Republic of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina was structured? And I refrain from using the

13 word "government" because in this context it has a particular meaning?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. So do you know? Did anybody explain it to you?

16 A. I go back to what I said originally: My job was in the field.

17 Q. I didn't ask you about that. I'm just asking you a simple

18 question.

19 A. So, no.

20 Q. I'm just a simple lawyer asking simple questions.

21 A. I'm a simple soldier.

22 Q. Exactly.

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. So what you're telling us is being a simple soldier --

25 A. Yes.

Page 23791

1 Q. -- you knew nothing about the political structure?

2 A. The question you've asked me.

3 Q. Oh, the question I've asked you. All right. Did you -- had you

4 heard of Mr. Izetbegovic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And what was his role if you -- if you recollect? Did

7 anybody explain to you who Mr. Alija Izetbegovic was?

8 A. He was the leader -- from what I remember, he was the leader of

9 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. What his title was I'm not sure.

10 Q. All right. Were you aware that he was during October 1992 in and

11 around Mostar?

12 A. Was I aware of that?

13 Q. Yes. Did anybody bring it to your attention?

14 A. No. What date in October?

15 Q. Okay. Well, he was there for several weeks. Now, we know that

16 you went to -- you went into Mostar the last week, you say, of October but

17 you're not quite clear.

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I wasn't aware that he was there and I didn't meet him.

21 Q. Okay. All right. Did you ever make any attempts meet with him?

22 A. To meet Mr. Izetbegovic?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to this document --

Page 23792

1 JUDGE PRANDLER: Please, let me ask you again, Mr. Karnavas and

2 also our witness, to slow down and to have a break between your questions

3 and answers. As I used to say, you will kill the interpreters, and it is

4 not a very good thing to do. Thank you.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally agree, Your Honour. In fact, I was

6 reprimanded last night and correctly so.

7 Q. Okay. Getting back to this document. I just want you -- if you

8 wanted to glean at it very quickly but I'm more interested in the last

9 paragraph on the first page where it says:

10 "The minister of defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina commanded with

11 our approval that all three national armies, in accordance with Geneva

12 Conference, should withdraw to their respective provinces, which should be

13 a good move as regards the aggressor Serb army, which also has to

14 withdraw. Thus the decision of HVO is merely the implementation of that

15 order. At the same time, this moment has been qualified as appropriate

16 for establishment of Joint Command of BiH defence armies (Army of BiH and

17 HVO), to which you opposed."

18 Now, let's stop there. I take it from your previous answers, not

19 having seen the Vance-Owen Peace Plan that was being generated out of the

20 Geneva Conference, you at that time, because you were in the field, boots

21 on the ground as it were, did not know exactly what was happening in

22 Geneva.

23 A. That's a fair comment.

24 Q. Okay. And did anybody tell you by any chance what, if any,

25 agreements had been reached, tentative as they may have been, between

Page 23793

1 Mr. Izetbegovic and Mate Boban?

2 A. I was aware that there was a question of subordination of the

3 Armija under HVO control.

4 Q. Okay. But that wasn't my question. I was -- I talked about

5 agreements.

6 A. That's -- no. To answer your question, no.

7 Q. Now, it says here in the very last sentence --

8 A. Could I read the document from the start.

9 Q. Let me just do my cross?

10 A. Okay, yeah.

11 Q. And then, you know, we'll have a break and then you can read that

12 and we'll go back to this document.

13 "At the same time, this moment has been qualified as appropriate

14 for establishment of Joint Command of BiH defence armies, army of BiH, and

15 HVO to which you opposed."

16 Did anyone bring to your attention that this -- the establishment

17 of a Joint Command had been on the table, had been proposed by Mr. Mate

18 Boban, and it would appear that Mr. Mile Akmadzic, the president of the

19 RBiH, they're representing that this proposal was on the table and

20 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic opposed, opposed it. Did anybody bring that to your

21 attention?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Okay. Finally if we go to the -- to the -- to the paragraph that

24 starts with "However," and I don't want to spend too much time dwelling on

25 it, but I'm going to go to the very last sentence where it says:

Page 23794

1 "Accusing the Republic of Croatia of interfering with the internal

2 issues of Bosnia and Herzegovina is an excuse for furthering one's own

3 agenda, and for public dismissal of Friendship and Cooperation Agreement

4 between the two states."

5 Question: Were you aware, sir, of whether -- let's just start

6 with whether, whether there was such an agreement, a Friendship and

7 Cooperation Agreement? Did anybody bring that to your attention?

8 A. Negative.

9 Q. Okay. Would it be surprised -- would you be surprised to learn

10 that there was, in fact, a Friendship -- an Agreement of Friendship and

11 Cooperation between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. Would I be surprised?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did you have any dealings in particular

17 with the Republic of Croatia? I mean, other than going there once a week,

18 as you said, did you have any dealings, official dealings, with them?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And I think yesterday you were asked the questions whether you had

21 seen the HV.

22 A. Yep.

23 Q. The Croatian army. And you indicated in your rather -- and I

24 noted this, I think I'm going to have to go to the record to make sure I

25 didn't get it wrong. I'm referring to yesterday's transcript of page 79,

Page 23795

1 and it says here: Question -- he's asking you about "at the end of

2 Mr. Bousseau's report, he's recounting some submissions made by

3 Mr. Pasalic" - And we talked who Mr. Pasalic was - "But there's a

4 reference to units and equipment of the Croatian army, the HV, and I

5 wanted to ask you whether you observed or encountered Croatian army units

6 or equipment during the course of your tour in the region."

7 Now -- and then the answer, the answer that you give, it was quite

8 laconic: "Yeah on a number of occasions only in Mostar we observed some

9 Croatian army vehicles." That's what you said. You're shaking your head?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. You stand by that?

12 A. I said that, yes.

13 Q. Well, I know that you stand by saying that that's what you said,

14 but you stand by that --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- answer.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I take it what was being shown to you or what was being

19 referenced to Mr. Bousseau's report, those would have been encounters he

20 had with Mr. Pasalic, information that he had gleaned or learned from

21 Mr. Pasalic; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you were questioned about this -- and by the way when

24 we say vehicles, a tank is not a vehicle, is it, in the military sense?

25 When you refer to a vehicle, if you say I saw some vehicles. If you say I

Page 23796

1 saw a tank you would say I saw a tank?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You would make that distinction?

4 A. You would.

5 Q. Maybe a civilian like me who is not terribly sophisticated might

6 make that error, but you certainly would not, being the military man you

7 are?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, Mr. President, perhaps we can take the break

11 and we could pick up there because we've gone an hour and a half.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to have a break of

13 about 20 minutes.

14 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we resume with the

17 cross-examination, the Chamber renders its oral decision following the

18 oral request made by Mr. Scott this morning.

19 The Chamber considers that the exceptional circumstances referred

20 to have been demonstrated by the Prosecution and as a result the Chamber

21 grants the Prosecution the possibility of responding pursuant to its

22 initial motion, but I'd like to point out to the Prosecution that the

23 reply must only relate to elements that come out of -- that arise out of

24 the Defence position. You should not take advantage of the reply to

25 introduce new elements that did not fall within the scope of what the

Page 23797

1 Defence contested, because if that is the case, we will simply dismiss any

2 new elements that might be introduced by these means. The reply is not a

3 procedure that would allow one party to add new elements in relation to

4 the counter-position alleged by one of the parties. Please pay attention

5 to this. The reply should only relate to contested elements, elements

6 contested by the Defence. This is what we wanted to draw your attention

7 to.

8 And secondly, I would once more like to remind the Defence that

9 they should slow down because we'll be breaking all records today. We

10 have had about 54 pages in an hour and a half and that's an absolute

11 record in this Tribunal.

12 Mr. Karnavas, please proceed.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I'd like to add that I would

15 like to greet Mr. Kovacic, who is back with us now.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, yes, we do appreciate his presence.

17 It's always good to have him behind me as support.

18 Q. You heard the President. We need to slow down, sir.

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. Now, before we took a break I'd asked you some questions -- you

21 don't need to pay attention to that document any more unless you -- unless

22 we get back to it, so we can --

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. -- just focus on my -- the last series of questions where I

25 directed you to what you had said yesterday on direct examination

Page 23798

1 concerning the HV, and in your statement on paragraph 50, for instance,

2 you made comments to the effect that -- or this is what Mr. Spork wrote

3 down as your account:

4 "The HVO had a proper military structure, a chain of command with

5 arsenal of military materiel from small arms up to anti-tank weaponry.

6 Tank supports for the HVO was supplied by the HV. I know this because on

7 a number of occasions I witnessed tanks with HV designation in Mostar."

8 Let's stop right there. Today, based on what you told me, at

9 least on cross-examination and based on what you told the Prosecution

10 yesterday on direct examination, I would take it you would want to

11 withdraw that part of your statement. That's incorrect, is it?

12 A. Incorrect, yes.

13 Q. Okay. It's kind of hard to miss a tank if it's rolling down the

14 streets of Mostar, isn't it?

15 A. It's a long time ago, yeah.

16 Q. But my question is it's hard to miss --

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. Okay. May I ask, and I'm doing this with the utmost respect,

19 recognising that memory fades with time, unlike wine, it doesn't get any

20 better, at least not for some of us, when you read this before you

21 initialed it, okay, was this something that you constantly saw or was this

22 something that sort of was put in and maybe perhaps overlooked by you? I

23 mean, in other words, is it possible that during the interviewing session

24 that maybe you were pressed and maybe didn't give -- because we don't have

25 the question, answer, we don't have a live transcript like we do with some

Page 23799

1 witnesses so we don't know what the question was and we don't know what

2 your answer was. Do you recollect by any chance?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. Now, staying with that paragraph, you indicate something that I

5 found rather interesting. Perhaps may wish to comment. You say both

6 sides admitted to uncontrolled elements, but I'm only aware of a number of

7 mercenaries that might fall in that category, mainly German and British

8 operating with the HVO."

9 Now, my -- now, yesterday you were shown a document by the

10 Prosecution, and that was document number 1303. Granted it was not

11 generated by you, but there was a reference there to Islamic fighters. Do

12 you recall seeing that passage where it makes reference to that?

13 A. I'd like to read it if you're going to --

14 Q. Okay. I was just going to suggest that.

15 A. Thank you.

16 Q. Okay. And may I ask, thus far I hope you don't feel that you've

17 been mistreated by the Defence.

18 A. No, absolutely not.

19 Q. Okay. If we could get the documents, they can be either pulled up

20 or these would be in the Prosecution bundle 1303. But if you get to it,

21 and we look at -- it's numbered paragraph 3. It's numbered, a numbered

22 paragraph. And there is this sort of reference to Islamist forces. It

23 says: "Danger just for the whole area obvious for the outcome of the

24 Geneva talks for the fate of the population, as well as for the

25 possibility interference of Islamist forces encouraged by the

Page 23800

1 victimisation of the Muslim community."

2 A. Just give me the reference to that again please.

3 Q. 1303. This was a document that was shown to you by the

4 Prosecution yesterday obviously shown to you and gone over with you by

5 Mr. Stringer?

6 A. I have it here, yes.

7 Q. Paragraph 3, it makes a reference to Islamist forces. Okay? Now,

8 the reason I'm asking this question going back to paragraph 50, you're

9 saying that you mainly saw -- or what you saw: "I'm only aware of a

10 number of mercenaries which might fall in the category -- in that

11 category," meaning the category of uncontrolled elements quote unquote,

12 "mainly German and British operating with the HVO."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now my question is because at least we have a reference from your

15 supervisor or your superior, my question is did you, Mr. Ray Lane, ECMM

16 monitor, team leader, did you know then or were you aware of the

17 involvement of the Mujahedin --

18 A. No.

19 Q. That's pretty laconic.

20 A. No, counsel.

21 Q. You mean period, full stop?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. No more -- so I want to make sure I got this right. Help me out

24 here.

25 A. Sure.

Page 23801

1 Q. From mid-October -- or late October when you get there, I think

2 it's mid -- the 30th of October.

3 A. Mm-hmm.

4 Q. That's a yes; right? Until the middle of March when you leave.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. While you were there on the ground and as I understand it January,

7 February, March, primarily in the Gornji Vakuf area, that area --

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. -- you don't hear anything about Mujahedin?

10 A. No, that's not what I answered.

11 Q. I'm going step-by-step?

12 A. Sorry, yes.

13 Q. Because I --

14 A. I did hear. Yes, I heard.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Yes, for sure, rumours and stories about the presence of

17 Mujahedin.

18 Q. Okay. Because I asked you did you know then or were you aware of

19 involvement. Now, let me break it down. You heard stories. Were you --

20 did you do anything to find out whether those stories were correct or

21 incorrect or mere fantasy? It's a yes or no or I don't know?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Okay. All right. Was this known by others, other than Mr. Ray

24 Lane?

25 A. Was what known?

Page 23802

1 Q. The rumours, because we can't substantiate their presence, I take

2 it, but was it known, was the rumour known of Mujahedin running around in

3 areas where there was the conflict or --

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And did you bother to -- when you heard those rumours, did

6 that concern you at all?

7 A. Again I remind you of what you said.

8 Q. I just?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. I --

11 A. Of course it concerned me. Of course it concerned me.

12 Q. That's all you need to answer?

13 A. Of course it concerned me.

14 Q. And you need to slow down.

15 A. Sorry.

16 Q. And because you were concerned with other matters, I take it you

17 didn't look into it.

18 A. Well, as I said to you previously, we were so busy with all

19 matters that -- that if Mujahedin had been in our area of operations or

20 they were present there, I'm sure we would have found them.

21 Q. All right. Do you know where they were present?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you ask where they were present?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. All right. But yet you said that both sides admitted to

Page 23803

1 uncontrolled elements, and then you go on to say, "I am only aware of a

2 number of mercenaries that might fall in that category, mainly German,

3 British, operating with the HVO."

4 A. By that I mean.

5 Q. Let me just finish my question.

6 A. Sorry. Yep.

7 Q. May I ask you why you didn't also include the rumours about the

8 Mujahedin being in and around the area?

9 A. Because there's a distinct difference.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. The difference is I met these uncontrolled elements or mercenaries

12 physically.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Where I didn't have the luck of meeting the other people, if they

15 were there.

16 Q. Okay. If they were there.

17 A. Yep.

18 Q. Do you know if they were there now? I mean, you were ECMM?

19 A. I don't know. I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. All right. Now, moving on, the reason I asked you about

21 the Republic of Croatia, you do make a statement in -- there are two

22 passages that I want to -- one is on paragraph 112 of your statement where

23 you say rather boldly:

24 "In my professional opinion that throughout my period of time in

25 the area of operations the Republic of Croatia was a major influence both

Page 23804

1 politically and militarily with the Bosnian Croats and their activity."

2 Okay? And then you go on to say: "On many occasions I saw

3 military hardware with Croatian army designation and military personnel

4 wearing the uniform of the Croatian army. I believe that the Bosnian

5 Croats saw no future for the Bosnian Muslims. There is no doubt that the

6 influence of the European Union and the future ambitions of people like

7 Boban and Jadranko Prlic ensured that these people were very conscious of

8 not upsetting the European Union. However, they had contempt for the

9 United Nations."

10 And -- and I believe there's another reference, and that would be

11 on page 45 where you're talking about at least Boban and his cohorts

12 wanting to live in a Greater Croatia as a society based on Catholicism,

13 and then you go on to say: "It appeared to me their major political

14 direction was unification with the Republic of Croatia."

15 Now, with that in background, having set the stage there, you've

16 told us that your involvement on the ground and your particular interest

17 was the well-being of, you know -- well, your main focus was trying to

18 calm the situation, I guess, in the Gornji Vakuf area. That took up three

19 months of your time at least; right? Or two and a half, January,

20 February. And you left in the middle of March. Right?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Okay. I take it in between that time there was a two-week R and

23 R?

24 A. Two -- 10 days.

25 Q. Ten days. And then you told us that your total mission with ECMM

Page 23805

1 was six months?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Three weeks of those were spent in Knin?

4 A. Mm-hmm.

5 Q. That's a yes?

6 A. I'm not quite sure if it was three weeks.

7 Q. That's what you told us.

8 A. Around that time.

9 Q. I'm just telling you what you told us.

10 A. I've also pointing out it's a long time ago so I'm not specific on

11 time.

12 Q. Okay. Slow down, Mr. Lane. Slow down. I abstained from coffee

13 over the break. I just want you to know that.

14 A. Maybe I should have too.

15 Q. Yeah. Now, okay, so we spent two or three weeks that is to say in

16 Knin, then a one-week orientation, plus ten days, so if we subtract that

17 the total amount of time more or less is about five months in Bosnia, give

18 or take a week or so.

19 A. Okay. I'll accept that.

20 Q. Okay. Three months of which or two and a half months of which you

21 spent in the Gornji Vakuf area. The other two months or so would have

22 been going all over the place, including Mostar.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. You were not involved in any negotiations at a high level

25 dealing with Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

Page 23806

1 A. No.

2 Q. You were not privy to any information resulting from those

3 continuing negotiations?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You didn't come across any documents?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You had no dealings with any Croatian officials?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. And here you're saying that it was in your

10 professional opinion that at that time the area of -- "In the area of

11 operations the Republic of Croatia was a major influence both politically

12 and militarily on the Bosnian Croats and their activities."

13 Now, is this -- given what you've told us so far, given your

14 mandate; given what you were doing; given that at least two and a half

15 months, if what you tell us is true, and I have no reason to doubt you

16 that you're spending 14, 15, 16 hours a day, whatever the number might be,

17 negotiating at the very microlevel, how is it that you can say with any

18 degree of certainty that it was your opinion the Republic of Croatia was a

19 major influence politically and militarily, particularly when, as we have

20 seen thus far, you didn't even know how the political structure

21 functioned?

22 A. The answer to your question is the fact that I lived amongst the

23 Bosnian Croat population. My people operated in Herzegovina, and it was

24 our viewpoint as expressed there, that is my viewpoint based on my four or

25 five months in theatre.

Page 23807

1 Q. Okay. So that's from listening to people on the ground.

2 A. That's from -- you talked about the microlevel. The information

3 you garner from travelling from town to town throughout a region is very,

4 very informative, and what you see is equally as informative. The fact

5 that you might be sitting 16 hours in Gornji Vakuf doesn't mean that

6 you're -- you're not finding out what's going on in the region.

7 Q. But your political opinion, if I might be so bold to say, was that

8 my client, Dr. Jadranko Prlic, wanted part of Bosnia and Herzegovina to be

9 annexed to Croatia. At least that's what I glean --

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. -- from looking at your statement.

12 A. Yes. It was my opinion.

13 Q. That's your opinion?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that's from conversations on the ground with others than

16 Mr. Jadranko -- Dr. Jadranko Prlic?

17 A. I would say it's from being immersed in the population.

18 Q. Okay. Well, I'm asking this question because you were immersed in

19 the population, let you can't tell me what the Presidency is. You were

20 immersed in the population but you can't tell me, you know, how this

21 government --

22 A. I don't think that's --

23 Q. -- Functioned?

24 A. But to answer your question I don't they that's relevant to what

25 I'm saying.

Page 23808

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I'm saying we were at the level that we saw the people, the

3 response of the people, what their views and future wishes were.

4 Q. Okay. So now we're talking about the people.

5 A. I'm talking about the locations we were in.

6 Q. Okay. But --

7 A. But just to answer exactly what you're saying or asking me. I

8 drew my opinion from my extensive movement in the area and discussions

9 with a broad range of people.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. That's to answer your question.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, when you had conversations with Mr. --

13 with Dr. Jadranko Prlic, and as I understand it, again to repeat, you

14 could see him any time you wished?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. He didn't at any point in time tell you, "No, I'm busy. I don't

17 want to talk to you"?

18 A. He was most forthcoming with his time.

19 Q. Okay. And to the extent that he was able to answer your

20 questions, he answered them?

21 A. To the extent that he was able to answer them, yes.

22 Q. Okay. In other words, there wasn't a topic where he would say

23 this is taboo, this is off limits or this is off record or this is not a

24 topic for discussion? And you certainly wouldn't do what you claim

25 Mr. Boban was doing which is sort of switch the topic and talk about

Page 23809

1 something else. There were no sort of ground rules that you would meet

2 with him?

3 A. I think that's a fair comment.

4 Q. Okay. All right. And I think if he had, he said something that

5 was outrageous or outlandish, that's something that you would passed up

6 the chain of command and said, "Well, I had a meeting and this is what

7 this -- this individual said"?

8 A. Mm-hmm. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. All right. Now, yesterday I asked you a question about

10 Mr. Pasalic, and you indicated that -- that he was perturbed, if I could

11 put it that way, he was a little upset over the fact that it took you some

12 time to go to the east side to meet with him; right?

13 A. Mm-hmm. Correct.

14 Q. Now, when you say the east side, are we talking about the river

15 being --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- the boundary?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there not Muslims living on the west side of the river?

20 A. I'm sure there were.

21 Q. What do you mean are you sure?

22 A. There were. There were, yes.

23 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that the numbers were rather large?

24 In fact, I'm told, I can't vouch for it, but I'm told that the numbers

25 were probably equal or greater number of Muslims were living on the west

Page 23810

1 side of the bank of the river than on the east side?

2 A. Yep.

3 Q. Okay. Now, did you have an opportunity to visit those folks

4 prior to meeting -- and those areas prior to going over the -- over the

5 bank?

6 A. I cannot remember that.

7 Q. All right. You indicated yesterday that -- you told us that his

8 headquarters were -- was on the west -- on the west side?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That was in the Vranica building?

11 A. Yeah. I take your word for that, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now when you say you take my word for it, is that --

13 A. I cannot remember the name of the building.

14 Q. Okay. Okay. Does that mean, however, that you remain the

15 location -- you remember the location of the building?

16 A. I can see the building in my mind, yes.

17 Q. Okay. All right. Well, let's walk down memory lane then. Now,

18 that building is fairly -- far removed from the bank, the west bank, of

19 the river. I mean, I'm not talking miles and miles, but it's in the

20 centre of the town; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And it would have been near or further away from, say,

23 where other official buildings were?

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. Or buildings that were occupied by other -- by officials I would

Page 23811

1 say of the HVO; correct?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And that was the headquarters of the 4th -- is it the 4th Corps?

4 A. The 4th Corps.

5 Q. That's what they called themselves?

6 A. Mm-hmm.

7 Q. Now in your statement you indicate, and I believe it's on page

8 67 -- I mean on paragraph -- paragraph 67 in your statement you say

9 something to the effect that you say, "He was the commander of the ABiH

10 4th Corps. I would always meet General Pasalic in his headquarters on the

11 east side of Mostar."

12 A. Yep.

13 Q. Now if he's the commander of the ABiH?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if the ABiH has its headquarters on the west side, okay, are

16 you saying that there are two headquarters or ... ? Because I'm a little

17 confused.

18 A. No, I think it's quite simple I think he had a tactical

19 headquarters on the east side of the bridge.

20 Q. Tactical versus what? Operational?

21 A. His normal headquarters. In other words, he had another location

22 on the east side of the town.

23 Q. Okay. Did he ever venture into the west side? And we've had

24 testimony about that.

25 A. Well, I can't personally answer that, but I met him always on the

Page 23812

1 east side.

2 Q. Okay. Well, was there a particular reason why he would say,

3 "Mr. Lane, we need to meet on the east side and we can't meet on the west

4 side"? Was there a particular reason?

5 A. The -- I think I pointed out yesterday the arrangements I had come

6 to where I would get my people to spend equal time on both sides of the

7 river.

8 Q. I understand, but --

9 A. And --

10 Q. -- there's a difference between -- forgive me for interrupting?

11 A. No, please.

12 Q. There's a difference between walking around in your white suit and

13 to be seen, seeing dignitaries and officials, that is difference between

14 that and, say, meeting someone at his headquarters, because as I

15 understand it, it was the headquarters of the ABiH 4th Corps.

16 A. Again, I cannot say this categorically, but I think Pasalic's

17 request was to meet him on the east side in his headquarters.

18 Q. Okay. Very well. Fair enough. And I take it nonetheless because

19 you were there to be fair to everybody, and wanted to find out what each

20 side had, you went into the headquarters in the west side, in the Vranica

21 building?

22 A. In the west side?

23 Q. Yeah.

24 A. I did.

25 Q. And did you meet with people over there?

Page 23813

1 A. Again, I can't remember who I met there.

2 Q. But you did meet -- you were there on official business. It

3 wasn't like let me see what the rooms look like. Is there a television in

4 this room or a telephone working? You were there on official business.

5 A. Unofficial or official?

6 Q. Official.

7 A. Everything I did really out there was official business.

8 Q. All right. Yet you don't recall who you met?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many times you went there?

11 A. Very few.

12 Q. Now, as I understand it, by this point in time, from what you were

13 able to glean, there was tension between the Croats and the Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. There was tension in the air?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And in fact the tension dealt with or the territory or whatever,

18 the area that was in contention or that was the cause of this tension was

19 in and around the Neretva River; is that correct? The Neretva valley as

20 well.

21 A. Could you repeat that?

22 Q. The tension was emanating from -- I mean, both sides were -- I

23 believe you say this in your statement some place. The tension had to do

24 with the Neretva. What was the tension about?

25 A. No. I --

Page 23814

1 Q. Paragraph 24.

2 A. Could you just read it out.

3 Q. I'll read it out for you and you help me out here?

4 A. Yep.

5 Q. "At the end of October 1992 there was a significant tension in

6 Mostar and it was obvious that the HVO and ABiH were preparing both

7 defence and offensive positions, particularly around the Neretva River."

8 Let me stop right there. So that was the feeling that you got?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So both sides are preparing.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Both sides are preparing, as you put it here, defensively

13 and offensively?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So just to make sure, I don't want to mislead you, I don't want

16 the record to be incorrect. You're not saying one was getting ready

17 offensively --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- And the other defensively?

20 A. No, absolutely not. No.

21 Q. Okay fair enough. Did you ever visit the lines or whatever, the

22 troops to see on both sides?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever ask to see any maps, for instance? Not that they

25 would share them with you. This is sort of a naive question on my part,

Page 23815

1 but you with your white suit representing the European Union, who knows.

2 They might have answered that question?

3 A. I could have asked. I can't remember.

4 Q. Okay. Now, then you say: "As I subsequently found out, it was

5 extremely difficult to cross the Stari Most bridge and gain access to the

6 east side of Mostar."

7 First of all let's talk about that. Are you with me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now the Stari Most, that's the Old Bridge?

10 A. The Old Bridge, yes.

11 Q. You can't drive over it.

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have to walk over it.

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And as pleasant as it looks, it's kind of a difficult walk.

16 A. Mm-hmm.

17 Q. That's a yes?

18 A. Yes, oh, absolutely.

19 Q. In fact, you walked over it the first time when you wanted to see

20 what was happening over there; right?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. The city wasn't divided. That's a question. I forgot to put the

23 inflection. But the city wasn't divided?

24 A. What do you mean it wasn't divided?

25 Q. Well, you didn't have a line drawn up where, you know, it was one

Page 23816

1 city?

2 A. No, one city, yes.

3 Q. One city?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You had west and you had east?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. There was a river but it was one city?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And nobody stopped you from walking across; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Now, the -- as I understand it and help me out, the

12 Serbs they had been attacking -- they had attacked primarily the east

13 side; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Okay. That was because of the locations, where they were located.

16 A. Where who was located?

17 Q. The -- I don't want to say VRS because they didn't exist at the

18 time or at least that might not have been the unity, the JNA or what they

19 commonly referred to as the Chetniks, a term that I don't -- it's a

20 pejorative term I don't like to use it, but the Serbs?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. They held the high ground?

23 A. To the north.

24 Q. They were able to shell, and they were shelling primarily of the

25 east side?

Page 23817

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Because that's what -- because of their location?

3 A. I'm missing your point.

4 Q. Okay, well. I'll move on?

5 JUDGE PRANDLER: I'm indeed very sorry but again and again you are

6 overlapping. Also Mr. Lane and also Mr. Karnavas. Thank you.


8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

9 Q. But fair enough, it's fair to say that by the time you got there

10 whatever had happened or for the most part what had happened between the

11 Serbs and the Muslims and the Croats had already finished?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Although there was some shelling?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Okay. And fair enough to say that the east side was the one that

16 was primarily damaged?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. Okay. Did you by any chance learn what had happened, how Mostar

19 was liberated? Who did what, who was responsible, what happened? It's a

20 yes or no and --

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Mr. Pasalic? Was he general then or

23 colonel?

24 A. General, I think.

25 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask him to explain to you how the destruction

Page 23818

1 had occurred?

2 A. Of Mostar?

3 Q. Yes, of East Mostar.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever ask him how it was defended?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever ask him what exactly had been damaged then as a

8 result of the Serb aggression? That's how it's called. Okay? In other

9 words, and I'm going to get specific on you, to what effect -- to what

10 extent they -- they had damaged the water supply, electricity, phone

11 system, whatever. Things that you need to sustain yourself on a

12 day-to-day basis?

13 A. Yes. I was aware that most of the damage in the east side was

14 caused by the Serbs.

15 Q. But did you ask for specifics?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Because I think in one of your statements you're saying that the

18 Croats on the west side were denying water, for instance, or electricity

19 to the east side. You're shaking your head.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now did you ever, sir, in your personal, professional or official,

22 whatever you want to call it, capacity check that situation out to see

23 exactly who controlled the water system, where -- where the problem lied

24 to try to fix it because after all you were the man on the ground

25 concerned, and this would have been one of your concerns. It's again a

Page 23819

1 yes or no, and then we can explain?

2 A. Question again, please.

3 Q. I'll be shorter this time. Okay. Did you take any steps, any

4 measures to find out exactly what the cause was, why the east side, for

5 instance, wasn't getting its water?

6 A. The answer is no.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. However, my priority was to -- the second part of your question,

9 my priority was to try and improve the living standards of the people on

10 the east side, on all sides by improving the flow of food, et cetera into

11 that area.

12 Q. Sir, I have no doubt that that's what you were trying to do.

13 A. Yep.

14 Q. But before we can blame one particular side, before we can say

15 this side is denying access of water to another side, would you not agree

16 with me it would help to first find out what the root of the problem is

17 rather than, and forgive me if I say this, making an assumption?

18 A. There was no assumption.

19 Q. Okay. So --

20 A. There was no assumption.

21 Q. Let me -- okay. There was no assumption. Tell me concretely then

22 what it is you learned -- what you did to learn --

23 A. Excuse me.

24 Q. And tell us concretely what the problem was with the water because

25 you're asserting at this point that the HVO was deliberately denying the

Page 23820

1 east side water. So I'm asking you, what did you do and how did you draw

2 this conclusion?

3 A. I was informed of that by the -- the officials on the east side of

4 the river.

5 Q. Okay. Now, it would seem to me -- I just heard the news today and

6 there was an allegation against somebody, and someone said, "Hey, wait a

7 minute. There's two side to the stories, and usually the person being

8 accused at least is innocent until presumed -- or unless," you

9 know, "until guilt is proved." You would agree with that?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. Okay. Now, the one side of which you said there is conflict in

12 the air is making this allegation, this assertion. Now, I take it you,

13 based on that answer, accepted that as truth, and that is why you did not

14 make any other efforts to ask -- to find out from the other side what

15 exactly was happening, how the water supply was damaged, if it was

16 damaged, who was turning it off, and why they weren't getting their water.

17 A. No. That wouldn't be a correct assertion.

18 Q. Okay. Well, tell me concretely. We need to slow down.

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. Slow down.

21 A. I'm slowing down.

22 Q. Take a breath.

23 A. I'm slowing down.

24 Q. Take a breath. Tell us concretely then.

25 A. On my visit which I've already informed you to the east side.

Page 23821

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I was aware not just of the situation as you keep referring to

3 water but to the humanitarian situation.

4 Q. Sir, stick with me. I'm dealing with the water issue because

5 you've made assertions, and I'm trying to figure out here, and I'm trying

6 to help the Trial Chamber figure out what exactly you know, because we

7 need to give them the facts. The Trial Chamber, they need the facts.

8 They're going to give us the law. That's how it works?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. So I'm asking you concretely because we know that the Serbs, you

11 know, during the first phase destroyed the east side. We know that the

12 water supply was severely damaged. Okay? You're told now on the east

13 side that the Croats who are responsible for the denial of the access of

14 water. Now I'm asking you, sir, concretely did you see and look into the

15 issue of water? Yes or no? I'm not saying whether you asked a question.

16 Did you see where the supply of the water comes, for instance, and whether

17 there was damage and whether you were being lied to? Did you make any

18 efforts? It's a yes or no?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. We'll move on. You indicated -- you indicated,

21 I believe, that at some point it was difficult having access to the east

22 side; right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, help me out again. If you drive from Dubrovnik up, upwards,

25 and you're driving towards -- into Mostar -- okay? Are you with me?

Page 23822

1 A. I am.

2 Q. Okay. Are you going to get on the west side or the east side?

3 A. When you're driving from where, Dubrovnik?

4 Q. Yeah.

5 A. Straight up the road, you can get on the east side.

6 Q. You can straight to the east?

7 A. Mm-hmm.

8 Q. Mm-hmm means yes?

9 A. Yes, yes, sir, yes.

10 Q. That road wasn't blocked?

11 A. There were check-points on that road.

12 Q. There were check-points everywhere according to you and that's

13 true, isn't it?

14 A. Yep. Yes.

15 Q. There were check-points -- I'm getting carried away. There were

16 check-points that were manned by the ABiH; right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And there were check-points manned by --

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

20 MR. STRINGER: Could we perhaps get some idea of the time frame

21 that we're talking about whether it's entire period of the witness's tour

22 or whether there was a more limited period of time. I think it might be

23 helpful.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

25 Q. We're talking about when you get there. So we're talking October,

Page 23823

1 November.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. January, February, March you're in Gornji Vakuf.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Are you able to comment then?

6 A. On Mostar?

7 Q. Yeah. Whether you could still drive into the -- into East Mostar.

8 I know that there are check-points?

9 A. With difficulty.

10 Q. Okay. Because I take it as the months go by the tension is

11 growing?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And there's tension on both sides?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 Q. And as far as I understand -- and we have to slow down. As far as

16 I understand, and this is what I'm getting from you, there was mistrust on

17 both sides.

18 A. That would be a fair statement.

19 Q. Okay. And in fact there is a war going around, around them

20 independent of what friction they may be having; right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And, sir, you as a military man, help me out here?

23 A. Yep.

24 Q. You've been out in Afghanistan. We see the photographs and what's

25 happening in Iraq. We see check-points all the time. Are those illegal

Page 23824

1 check-points or are those a necessary evil brought upon by the

2 circumstances of war? Which of the two?

3 A. The question is --

4 Q. About check-points?

5 A. The check-points, how did they operate.

6 Q. I'm asking you in general, going from the --

7 A. In general.

8 Q. Yes?

9 A. Okay in general, yeah.

10 Q. Are check-points necessary during that period?

11 A. Are check-points necessary? Yes.

12 Q. And both sides had them?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. That's all I wanted. Now, just one point I wanted

15 to -- to get at. Yesterday I asked you about your interpreter,

16 translator. I think they call them language assistants?

17 A. Mm-hmm.

18 Q. That's the term --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- they use these days. You said she was from the west side. Was

21 she Croat or was she Muslim?

22 A. I had a number of interpreters.

23 Q. Well --

24 A. The girl you're referring to.

25 Q. Well, woman.

Page 23825

1 A. Woman, was Croat, yes.

2 Q. Okay. This was the very first one?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. But then you had others?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And the only reason I'm mentioning that is because in paragraph 71

7 you say -- you maim a statement: "When I finally managed to employ a

8 Muslim interpreter the quantity and quality of information improved

9 immeasurably."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So are you saying the Croat interpreters were not very good?

12 A. No that's not what I'm saying at all.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. I'm saying it was easier, obviously, to bring a Muslim interpreter

15 into a Muslim area.

16 Q. Right.

17 A. And that's -- that's common sense.

18 Q. Okay. So let me ask you this. So when you would be talking and

19 meeting with Pasalic, you would have a Muslim interpreter.

20 A. I would try.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. It wasn't always possible.

23 Q. All right. Fair enough. Another thing that struck me here, on

24 paragraph 70 you say every Saturday afternoon you would walk around East

25 Mostar.

Page 23826

1 A. Mm-hmm.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I would try, yes.

4 Q. Well, it doesn't say I would try. It says I would walk every

5 Saturday afternoon?

6 A. My intent -- my intent would be that every Saturday. I'm not

7 saying I was able to manage it every Saturday afternoon, but the majority

8 of Saturday afternoons I would be there, yes.

9 Q. Okay. All right. Because I -- that struck me, and I have to tell

10 you why. Just bear with me. Take a pause, relax. It says every Saturday

11 afternoon because you told us that every Saturday morning you were driving

12 to Croatia?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And you would have a meeting?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I take it those meetings were rather serious.

17 A. Yes, but I would endeavour to return to my office by the

18 afternoon.

19 Q. And your office was in?

20 A. Siroki Brijeg.

21 Q. Siroki Brijeg.

22 A. Yep, yep.

23 Q. And then from there?

24 A. Just drive into Mostar.

25 Q. Okay. All right. Fair enough. All right. And I take it when

Page 23827

1 you went there that was also official. You were wearing your white

2 uniform, or were you in civvies?

3 A. No, throughout the six-month mission we never got out of our white

4 uniform.

5 Q. Okay. I need to refer to my notes because I'm just about through.

6 I don't have too many more questions. We're wrapping it up.

7 With respect to -- you mentioned yesterday how you saw these

8 refugees in one area. Do you recall that?

9 A. Was this Posusje?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. And I know it was asked yesterday, but I wasn't quite

13 clear so I want to ask again. Do you know exactly where these refugees

14 came from?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Now, this wasn't -- and again, just to be on the safe side,

17 you're there, you're ECMM, you're there to monitor, there to learn. Did

18 you ask, did you ask where they came from? It's a yes or no.

19 A. I'd say I did.

20 Q. And -- okay. And so might I be able to ask you where they came

21 from then?

22 A. I cannot remember.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. But just on that issue --

25 Q. You're taking my time, but go on. Go on?

Page 23828

1 A. It's important.

2 Q. If you're going to tell me something you've told us already.

3 A. I didn't because -- No.

4 Q. Okay, go for it.

5 A. Yesterday on consideration about this and as I said these events

6 like this make you think. We also came across a serious refugee situation

7 in Gradska.

8 Q. Okay. Well, I just want to talk about this one situation here,

9 because -- and the questions are generated from your direct examination.

10 Now, you didn't ask where they came from. Did you ask by any

11 chance why they came there? We don't need to know the where, but how

12 about the why. Why did they come there? In other words, who was

13 responsible?

14 A. For putting them there?

15 Q. Yes. I mean, for --

16 A. I think I answered that yesterday.

17 Q. Okay. But I'm asking you to humour me again today. So what was

18 the answer yesterday?

19 A. The answer yesterday was, if I remember correctly, having

20 witnessed what I witnessed that particular day --

21 Q. No, sir.

22 A. Please let me finish.

23 Q. No, no, what I'm asking you is this.

24 A. Yep.

25 Q. I asked you where they came from?

Page 23829

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said I don't know?

3 A. Yep.

4 Q. I'm asking you why, in other words, why they had to leave -- you

5 know, who drove them away, in other words, why?

6 A. I'll answer by saying my priority, counsel, was not that. My

7 priority was to improve these people's living standards.

8 Q. So the answer is I don't know. Is that the answer?

9 A. Yeah. Yes, that is the answer.

10 Q. Okay. I understand that you want to improve their living

11 standards. So the next question, based on that, did you get on the phone

12 and contact ECMM to contact the European Union to provide humanitarian

13 assistance for these people? Take them out, put them into a better

14 facility? Did you contact them?

15 A. Well --

16 Q. No, no, just answer my question?

17 A. Well, I certainly contacted ECMM, for sure, and informed them of

18 what I found. That's for definite.

19 Q. I'm not asking did you inform them what you found. Did you ask

20 them to provide assistance, in other words, to dig into that big purse of

21 the European Union, extract some money, buy resource -- buy food and

22 whatever and bring it over there? Did you ask for that? That's what I'm

23 asking?

24 A. My course of action --

25 Q. No, no, did you do that?

Page 23830

1 A. No, please I have to answer this. My course of action - I have to

2 answer this - was to focus my energy on the area where we're talking

3 because there was sufficient food there to feed these people.

4 Q. Okay. All right. So when you say there was sufficient food you

5 saw the stocks of food?

6 A. I am aware that there was -- for example, a large humanitarian

7 shipment of food on an ongoing basis from the Republic of Ireland to an

8 area not too far from where we're talking, yes.

9 Q. Okay. All right. And you're saying that the municipality, this

10 particular municipality, was denying that access to that food?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. You know that for a fact?

13 A. I looked for food for these people and it was denied.

14 Q. Sir, did you talk to the mayor of that town or did you talk to the

15 president of that municipality; yes or no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You talked to them.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did you try to learn what was available in their budget in

20 order to provide assistance to these people?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. This was not a detention camp. There was where refugees

23 were being put in; right? I'm not saying that --

24 A. From where.

25 Q. -- this was a deluxe hotel.

Page 23831

1 A. My God, from where you're standing now, that's some comment. Let

2 me tell you, let me tell you something. You have never experienced a

3 place like this, so ...

4 Q. Let me ask you, sir, did you visit other places around country to

5 see where refugees were being placed as they came in?

6 A. I saw.

7 Q. Yes or no?

8 A. I did, yes.

9 Q. Okay. And I'm not talking about where they eventually ended up in

10 and I'm not talking about as the war progresses or as this conflict

11 progresses where there's time to find facilities.

12 A. Let me say there is no excuse for housing people like that in that

13 kind of state.

14 Q. Okay. Did you ask what budget was available to them, if they had

15 the budgetary means?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know what the budgetary means was at that particular time?

18 A. I don't know, counsel.

19 Q. Okay. Fair enough. I won't press.

20 A. Please don't.

21 Q. Okay. Let me share with you a document. It's dated 28 November

22 1992. This has to do with a slightly different matter. So it's 1D 01053.

23 1D 0 --

24 A. I have it here, yep.

25 Q. Okay. And we can see that this is -- if you go to the second

Page 23832

1 page --

2 A. I'd like to read this now.

3 Q. Please just do as I'm asking you to, and then if I'm unfair you

4 can ask leave from the Trial Chamber for a fair treatment?

5 A. But I would like to --

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I ask the witness be allowed to read

7 the document. He could have been supplied the document during the break

8 and we could have saved time rather than playing these sorts of games.

9 But the witness ought to be allowed to read the document before he's

10 questioned about it.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm asking the gentleman just to look at the

12 signature first. It's step by step and I don't see why Mr. Stringer got

13 off the wrong side of the bed today. You know, he finished his direct, he

14 must have had a nice meal last night with a glass of wine and relaxed.

15 There is no need to be aggressive.

16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, you know this is an outrageous

17 comment to make in a courtroom in an international criminal tribunal.

18 This sort of -- this sort of statement demeans all of us, myself, he

19 demeaned me, he insulted me yesterday. He's doing it again. He drags us

20 all down when he acts like this.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I merely said --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, please keep calm.

24 You're showing the witness a document which he's not familiar with.

25 You're asking him to look at the signature.

Page 23833

1 MR. KARNAVAS: That's all.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: I wish to add, Mr. Karnavas, please refrain from

4 these personal attacks and ironic remarks. They indeed throw venom in the

5 atmosphere of the court and are completely unnecessary and let me add

6 unprofessional.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you Mr. -- Judge Trechsel. There's no need

8 to correct me on that because --

9 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It seems there is.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: If you go back, Judge Trechsel --

11 JUDGE TRECHSEL: We're not going to discuss this, Mr. Karnavas.

12 This is so obvious. Please proceed.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: The objection, in my opinion, was wrong. I'm

14 entitled to do my cross-examination as I see fit.

15 JUDGE TRECHSEL: But you're not entitled to make personal comments

16 and attack persons personally, and that's what you've been doing several

17 times and I do ask you to stop this because this is not professional. You

18 can make all the objections you make. You can protest everything, but do

19 not make these personal comments which are unprofessional, please.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I merely stated there's no need to get excited.

21 That's all. That's how I started, because --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us look at the document,

25 please.

Page 23834

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

2 Q. Can we -- can you please look at the signature line.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, do you recognise this person?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. See, there was no -- no way I was trying to mislead you

7 with that question.

8 A. No, I appreciate that.

9 Q. Okay. Now it says "Prim". Do you know what that means, "Prim

10 Dr.", what that stands for?

11 A. Primary Dr., Orthopaedic -- I'm not sure now.

12 Q. Well, it's a title that they give to doctors in Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 or that region that have attained a certain status within their

14 profession, you know?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Now if we can go back and if before we go to this

17 document, who was this individual? You see we're going to do step-by-step

18 there's no need to get excited in this courtroom. Who is this guy? You

19 said you know him. Who is he?

20 A. This man was the -- the person in charge of this hospital.

21 Q. All right. At the time that you were there?

22 A. Mm-hmm.

23 Q. And you had -- that's a yes?

24 A. Sorry, yes, yes, yes, yes.

25 Q. And you had an opportunity to meet with him?

Page 23835

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Talk to him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay, did he by any chance inform you that he was receiving aid

5 from abroad?

6 A. Yes, I think he mentioned that he was receiving some aid, yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, this letter is dated October 28 -- I mean, November

8 28, 1992. That would have been about the time that you were there; right?

9 A. Yes, correct.

10 Q. Now, if you would take some time and look over the document now

11 that we've set the foundation and we know that you know this individual so

12 I'm trying to be fairer to you.

13 A. Yep.

14 Q. Contrary to what you know has been shown otherwise, if you could

15 just look at the document, read it. I just have a couple of questions on

16 this, that's all.

17 A. So can I read the document now?

18 Q. Yes, please.

19 A. Thank you.

20 Q. See, we're going to get there.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, with your leave if I may consult

22 with my client while the gentleman is reading the letter. Just to get

23 instructions.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, while he reads the letter.

25 Go ahead.

Page 23836

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

2 Q. Now, I'm told -- have you had a chance to read this?

3 A. I don't, it's -- thank you. Thank you.

4 Q. Now, it would appear at least there's a reference to Chetniks.

5 You understand that means, right, what he's referring to?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who is he referring to?

8 A. The Serbs.

9 Q. And he is talking about the assistance that they're receiving and

10 the assistance that he wishes; right?

11 A. Mm-hmm.

12 Q. That's a yes?

13 A. Sorry, yes.

14 Q. Now, I'm told by my client that there's one section that was not

15 translated that might require a little bit of -- for my client to stand up

16 and read it, because you can even see it in the B/C/S version.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prlic, apparently there is a

18 section that hasn't been translated, so read it out.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Slow down -- slow.

20 THE ACCUSED PRLIC: At the end of first page I am reading now

21 Croat language: "[Interpretation] The food is almost more necessary than

22 medicine," and then the following part hasn't been translated:

23 "Representatives of the European Monitors have been visiting us and they

24 like us. They have grown to like us." So it is that part that has not

25 been translated.

Page 23837


2 Q. So I just wanted to put that in. So now it would appear that you

3 did have access to this gentleman at this point in time?

4 A. Sorry, I'm a just bit confused here.

5 Q. Okay?

6 A. That bit that was read out there.

7 Q. Right, that you met --

8 A. Is not in the English version.

9 Q. It's not in the English version.

10 A. Okay. Sorry but -- it wasn't translated.

11 Q. It wasn't translated. It's nothing to do with you.

12 A. It's not personal.

13 Q. No.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. But over here they're saying that they met with the European

16 Monitors. "Representatives of the European Monitors have been visiting

17 us, and they like us." In other words -- and this is visiting us. It

18 seems that on more than one occasion.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And they like us, which I think obviously that goes without saying

21 that anybody who probably meets you likes you, but it would seem to me

22 from this you had visits or contacts with the doctor at this particular

23 time.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Were you aware of these efforts that he was making and the

Page 23838

1 content of this document?

2 A. In other words, have I seen this document before? Yeah.

3 Q. Well, no, not whether you've seen the document. Are you aware of

4 the contents in the document? In other words, that he was making these

5 efforts trying to get food during this period of time?

6 A. Yes or no. No, I wasn't aware of it, but I'm not surprised.

7 Q. Very well. And nothing in this document here -- he refers to the

8 Chetniks, nothing about the HVO at this time denying him access to food or

9 access to resources or any of that stuff. I mean, you read it?

10 A. I read the document.

11 Q. And there's nothing in there about that?

12 A. No, there's nothing there, no.

13 Q. Okay. I think that concludes my cross-examination, Mr. Lane.

14 Thank you very much. You've been most cooperative. I apologise for the

15 friction in the courtroom. I assure you it's nothing personal.

16 A. Thank you for your courtesy.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's almost noon

18 now. It would be best to have our 20-minute break now and we'll resume in

19 20 minutes' time.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Before we begin, Mr. President, over the break when

24 things cooled down a little bit and having consulted with my colleagues as

25 well who took me to task, I wish to extend an apology to Mr. Stringer. It

Page 23839

1 was my intention to offend him. It was an attempt at levity, which

2 obviously didn't work. I understand that we are in a -- I understand that

3 we are in a very important Tribunal, but it -- I didn't mean to demean the

4 process or to disrespect Mr. Stringer. I just merely wanted to lighten up

5 the situation. Obviously it was bad humour on my part and I stand

6 corrected. I apologise if I offended Mr. Stringer, and I apologise to the

7 Trial Chamber.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That closes the

9 incident.

10 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

11 Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness.

13 Could we please provide the Judges with my binder of documents.

14 As far as I have been told, the Prosecution and the witness also have the

15 documents.

16 Mr. Lane, I'd like to clarify certain things. I'd like to see

17 what kind of information you had at the time that you arrived in

18 Herzegovina. As far as your testimony is concerned, your testimony today,

19 and this is something that you also addressed in the course of the

20 statement that you gave to the Prosecution, well, you mentioned your

21 conversations with people in the field, and you said that as a result of

22 those conversations you came to the conclusion that the Republic of

23 Croatia had significant political and military influence on the Croats in

24 Herzegovina.

25 Could you please tell me whether prior arriving in that area you

Page 23840

1 had information of any kind about the relationships between the various

2 regions and about the influence exerted by other states? And what I have

3 in mind primarily are the relationships in the former Yugoslavia. So what

4 sort of influence did other republics have in relation to the territory

5 you were in, or were you aware at the time that the socialist regime in

6 Yugoslavia, many inhabitants, Muslims and Croats, were, in educational and

7 economic terms, oriented towards Zagreb?

8 A. To answer your question, Counsel, specifically had I any

9 information before I arrived in the mission area, I had no information on

10 what you've asked me. I had no background knowledge of what you just laid

11 down there, no.

12 Q. Do you think it might be useful for -- for you if you had known

13 that in geographical terms that area was very much linked to Croatia and

14 to Zagreb? Would such information be useful to the conclusions that you

15 drew with regard to the links between the Croats from that area to the

16 Republic of Croatia and Zagreb?

17 A. In the case of the ECMM and their decision to redeploy monitors

18 back into Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was a hasty decision, as I've said, and

19 the preparation that we were given before going into Herzegovina was most

20 definitely insufficient. To answer your question directly would it have

21 been useful, it would have been of tremendous assistance for me and my

22 monitors to have been given a detailed and complete brief on that region

23 of the world. There's no argument about that.

24 Q. Although you have said that you knew nothing about that, I'll put

25 this question to you nevertheless. At a subsequent time when you returned

Page 23841

1 from Bosnia, or perhaps while you were still there, did you receive any

2 information according to which prior to the war, at the time of the former

3 Yugoslavia, Croats, Serbs, and Muslims from the Banja Luka region would

4 usually go to Zagreb for professional purposes, and they would usually

5 study in Zagreb. Have you ever heard about such a thing?

6 A. Not that specific example you've given me here, no.

7 Q. I'll just provide you with one more example. Have you ever heard

8 anything about the fact that -- well, for example, the Muslims from the

9 Bihac area, from the wider Bihac area, an area in which even before the

10 war the population was almost 98 per cent Muslim, had more links to Zagreb

11 and Slovenia because of the proximity, and did you hear anything about the

12 fact that that also had an influence on the future conflicts in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Have you ever heard anything about that?

14 A. Again no.

15 Q. It's important to say that the lack of such information that you

16 weren't provided with because of the sudden decision about sending you on

17 mission to Bosnia and Herzegovina, it's important to say that as a result

18 of such a lack of information it was possible to draw erroneous

19 conclusions. Would you agree with me?

20 A. I think I've said on a number of occasions I'm -- I'm an

21 experienced overseas officer in a number of theatres around the world, and

22 I've said yesterday that my number one drive and concern is for the

23 well-being of people, no matter where they come from. I absolutely agree

24 I would have liked more information before I went in there. Absolutely,

25 that's definite. But that wasn't possible. But I just draw your

Page 23842

1 attention to one thing. When I was in Gornji Vakuf, the local commanders,

2 the Muslim and Croat commanders of the opposing sides before the war were

3 the best of friends and in fact played on the same soccer team together.

4 My -- my ambition and my -- and my energy was directed at getting those

5 people back talking again around the table, to try to bring them back to

6 some normality.

7 Q. Mr. Lane, I asked you about these relationships before the war in

8 the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the area of Herzegovina because

9 through your answers you also provided certain political assessments, and

10 it's quite clear to me that you were a soldier and that you attempted to

11 carry out your tasks as a soldier, to the best of your ability. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. The -- it's an interesting comment. The ECM mission -- ECMM

14 mission is a mixture of diplomatic and military, and as you point

15 correctly, you point I'm a military officer, but I'd also like to point

16 out that at the end of my mission in Bosnia-Herzegovina, on my report for

17 my conduct for the six months, the ambassador in Zagreb pointed out that I

18 had very good diplomatic skills, which, he's an expert in that area, I

19 have to accept.

20 Q. I wasn't referring to the entire mission but only to what you

21 stated had been your experience. It's quite clear to me that the mission

22 also had as its objective an assessment of the political and military

23 situation, but we'll now move on to Mostar.

24 My colleague Mr. Karnavas put a series of questions to you and has

25 therefore facilitated this part of my cross-examination for me, but I'll

Page 23843

1 just focus on some areas that I believe have not yet been clarified.

2 You said that you went to Eastern Mostar about seven days after

3 your arrival in Siroki Brijeg; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And today we established that you were aware of the fact that the

6 staff of the 4th Corps of the ABiH was in Western Mostar; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Sir, did you ever meet -- or, rather, did you know that members of

9 the ABiH would come -- or would go to the headquarters in Western Mostar

10 and would leave Eastern Mostar to do so?

11 A. Did I know? Yes.

12 Q. We could see through Mr. Karnavas's cross-examination that the

13 inhabitants would move from the east to the west of Mostar and vice versa

14 because there were no borders in the town; is that correct?

15 A. There were no borders in the town, that is correct.

16 Q. Sir, you said at that Mr. Bozic was surprised when you told him

17 that you had been to East Mostar. If it was quite normal for members of

18 the ABiH to go from one side of the town to the other and for inhabitants

19 of the town to go from one side to the other, in that case why would he

20 object to the fact that you also went to Eastern Mostar?

21 A. That's the same question I asked Mr. Bozic. But when you refer to

22 a normal situation, the situation on East Mostar, I think as I pointed out

23 in cross-examination, was not normal. But to answer your direct question,

24 I don't know why Mr. Bozic was unhappy with me being in East Mostar.

25 Q. When we discuss Eastern Mostar -- well, you say the situation

Page 23844

1 wasn't normal there, and we both agree on that. At the time of your stay

2 in that area, that situation was a result of the war between the HVO -- or

3 it was a result of the war between the HVO and the ABiH against the Serbs

4 in the summer of 1992; is that correct?

5 A. The -- the tension that I experienced in East Mostar was as a

6 result of the tension between the Armija and the HVO. That's where the

7 tension was.

8 Q. I don't want to be unpleasant, sir. I know you have mentioned the

9 tension, but I'd be grateful if you could just answer my questions. I

10 have nothing against you providing additional comments. I'm referring now

11 to the objective situation. I'm referring to the situation in Eastern

12 Mostar. I'm referring to the state of the buildings, the water supply.

13 The sort of conditions the people were living in. Those were the

14 results -- or that was the result of the war with the Serbs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When we refer to this situation that the inhabitants lived in, the

17 inhabitants in Eastern Mostar, well, I'm saying the inhabitants or the

18 citizens. Were you aware of the fact that in the eastern part of Mostar

19 there were both Serbs, Muslims, and Croats at the time you were there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So when we refer to the conditions in which they lived, we have

22 already been told that you received information from Mr. Pasalic about the

23 water supply situation, and that's a fairly important matter for the life

24 of a town. So at that time were you aware of the fact that apart from the

25 military authorities, apart from the ABiH, there were civilian authorities

Page 23845

1 that were functioning on the eastern side of Mostar?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have any contact with the representatives of the civilian

4 authorities in Eastern Mostar and, if so, did you ask them about what they

5 had done to facilitate the lives of the citizens of Eastern Mostar?

6 A. I had discussions with representatives, civilian representatives,

7 of the population of eastern -- Eastern Mostar, in particular medical

8 representatives in relation to hospitals, clinics, medicines, and food.

9 Q. Sir, we'll come to the subject of hospitals, but I'm asking you

10 the following: The civilian authorities in Eastern Mostar according to

11 the documents that you've been shown in the courtroom existed at the time

12 that you were in the area. Isn't that correct? I'll be quite free to put

13 this in a colloquial manner. The civilian authorities were the Muslim

14 civilian authorities. Did you ever meet representatives of those

15 authorities? Did you meet the people who were responsible for the

16 citizens there in the western part of Mostar you met various

17 representatives of the political -- of the military and of the civilian

18 authorities. On the eastern side of Mostar you noticed that the situation

19 was very difficult, but apart from speaking to Mr. Pasalic, did you try to

20 speak to anyone who was a member of the civilian authorities? Did you ask

21 them what they had done?

22 A. As I said to you, I spoke to many, many people, but also not just

23 me. My monitors also, as I said, spent some time in Eastern Mostar. So

24 we spoke to many, many people over there who had different jobs and

25 responsibilities.

Page 23846

1 Q. Whom did you speak to? If you spoke to members of the civilian

2 authorities, I would then expect you to know at least one name, because

3 you knew the names of the people you spoke to in Western Mostar.

4 A. Well, unfortunately I cannot remember their names.

5 Q. Your testimony shows that in a certain sense you believed when you

6 had contact with representatives of the authorities in the west you -- you

7 believed they were responsible for the situation in Eastern Mostar. My

8 question is as follows: Do you know that at the time of the attack

9 launched by the Serbian army numerous Muslims and Croats from Eastern

10 Mostar and from Herzegovina as a whole took refuge in Western Mostar, in

11 flats, for example, that had been abandoned by Serbs? Were you aware of

12 that fact?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you aware of the fact that many of them stayed on in those

15 flats in Western Mostar later on either because it was not possible for

16 them to return to Eastern Mostar or because the living conditions in that

17 part of Mostar were better than the conditions in the eastern part of

18 Mostar?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the authorities in Western Mostar

21 had in fact attempted to shelter all those displaced individuals? They

22 had attempted to provide them with everything that they needed for their

23 daily lives, and this related to thousands of displaced Muslims and

24 Croats, tens of thousands of Muslims and Croats, and it required

25 substantial resources. Were you aware of this at all?

Page 23847

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the HVO authorities, both the

3 military and civilian authorities, from the very beginning of the conflict

4 with the Serbs, provided material resources? They provided food, other

5 supplies, weapons, to the ABiH at the time that you were there? To be

6 more specific, they provided these supplies to the 4th Corps, and I

7 believe Mr. Pasalic could have provided you with examples of such aid.

8 When you spoke to representatives of the 4th Corps and representatives of

9 the civilian authorities whom you cannot identify, in the course of your

10 conversations with these representatives did you find out anything about

11 this in did you know that prior to your arrival such aid was provided by

12 the HVO and such aid continued after you had left? Did anyone ever tell

13 you anything about this?

14 A. Specifically are you saying that the HVO provided weapons and

15 military assets to the Armija while I was there? Is that the question?

16 That's --

17 Q. Yes, that too.

18 A. That too. No. The answer is no.

19 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the Republic of Croatia throughout

20 the entire period, I'm referring to the period prior to your arrival, and

21 I'm referring to the period during your stay there and after you had left,

22 do you know that the Republic of Croatia aided the citizens of Eastern

23 Mostar and in your time the citizens of Mostar as a whole? Did you know

24 anything about the aid provided by Croatia to the territory that you were

25 in regardless of whether that territory was under the HVO or the ABiH?

Page 23848

1 A. In my many travels and movement around the area I saw, personally,

2 no sign of aid coming from the Republic of Croatia.

3 JUDGE PRANDLER: Excuse me, Ms. Nozica, I would like to draw your

4 attention to the fact and also to Mr. Lane's attention that the French

5 translation is very much lagging behind of your -- your questions and

6 answers, so please try to -- to look into that. Thank you.

7 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'll bear that in mind, but I was

8 under the impression that I was speaking exceptionally slowly, but I will

9 slow down even more.

10 Q. Sir, did you know that -- well, you said that you were often in

11 Split, so we can take Split as an example, but did you know that in

12 Croatia and in particular in Split there were numerous humanitarian

13 organisations? For example, Muslim humanitarian organisations such as

14 Merhamet, the Red Crescent. Were you aware of the fact that at the time

15 that you were in the area they provided the Muslim inhabitants of

16 Herzegovina with aid?

17 A. They -- I accept what you're saying. They obviously provided some

18 inhabitants with aid, but there were many Muslim inhabitants in

19 Herzegovina that were not in receipt of aid from these organisations or

20 any other organisation.

21 Q. Did you know that, for instance, in Split there was a Crisis

22 Staff, a military Crisis Staff, for Bosnia and Herzegovina, for the army

23 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, before your arrival, during your tour of duty,

24 and after you had left?

25 A. Just to clarify this for me so I can answer, what was the

Page 23849

1 structure? Crisis Staff?

2 Q. I'll show you a document. Maybe that will help you to see what

3 kind of structure it is. But before that, let's go back to the

4 distribution that you mentioned. You said that you knew that there were

5 humanitarian organisations but that their aid didn't reach everyone. Can

6 one conclude from this that the distribution of aid which went to the

7 Muslim population was not done properly perhaps? Perhaps it was the BiH

8 army that took most of the aid so that the smaller part was left for the

9 civilian population, and that is why it didn't reach anyone. Did you have

10 any information along those lines?

11 A. In the cases that I have pointed out yesterday, Stolac, Posusje,

12 Gradska, and other areas, the solution for the supply of humanitarian aid

13 for these people lay in the region in that, as I've also pointed out there

14 was sufficient food in the area, humanitarian aid, for these people. I

15 also mentioned that I was aware, being an Irish man, that the Irish people

16 had sent substantial amount of humanitarian aid to Medjugorje to relieve

17 desperate situations.

18 So in answer to your question, for these areas there was

19 sufficient food in the area, or humanitarian aid, to assist these people.

20 Q. I'm afraid you haven't answered my question again. I'm talking

21 about the distribution of humanitarian aid that did reach the Muslims

22 coming from the UNHCR to Eastern Mostar who -- that reached from Merhamet

23 and was intended for Eastern Mostar. My question was whether you were

24 aware of the way in which that humanitarian aid was distributed. Did you

25 have any information about the distribution?

Page 23850

1 A. I was aware that there was very serious difficulties in the

2 transportation of humanitarian aid into Eastern Mostar.

3 Q. Did you contact the UNHCR to see what kind of difficulties they

4 were contending with, and did you receive any information from them about

5 the arrival of humanitarian aid for the whole region? And if you did, who

6 did you speak to in the UNHCR?

7 A. The man I spoke to was a Mr. -- Mr. Savage [phoen], who was the

8 head of the operations for the UNHCR in Metkovic, a former retired Irish

9 army officer. So I spoke to him about humanitarian aid, relief for

10 Herzegovina.

11 Q. Sir --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a question.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, excuse me. It's a

14 follow-up to the questions you have asked.

15 The witness has spoken about Irish humanitarian aid, him being an

16 Irishman. Perhaps you could ask him how Irish aid was transported and

17 distributed to the population. Perhaps that would be helpful.

18 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I'll just

19 convey your question to the witness, that is, whether he knows how this

20 aid was distributed, the aid coming from Ireland. I wish to express the

21 greatest gratitude to Ireland. A large number of countries -- other

22 countries sent aid to Bosnia and Herzegovina through UNHCR, and it was

23 distributed according to a certain schedule both to members of the Muslim

24 ethnicity and the Croat ethnicity. But let's hear what the witness knows

25 about the Irish aid and its distribution.

Page 23851

1 THE WITNESS: I am aware, due to the close relationship between

2 the Irish people and the -- the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that

3 significant humanitarian aid was channeled into Herzegovina in the period

4 of time that I was there with the ECMM. A lot of this aid went to

5 Medjugorje, again because of the close relationship between the Catholic

6 church in Ireland and -- and Herzegovina. But I am also aware through

7 personal experience that this aid was not distributed equally as you

8 describe between Croats and Muslims. In fact, I pointed out yesterday

9 that I went to Medjugorje to ask for some assistance, and I specifically

10 mentioned the Irish aid that came into Medjugorje, and assistance was not

11 forthcoming.

12 Q. Sir, are you aware of the fact that this aid from Medjugorje was

13 distributed to the population of Western Mostar?

14 A. I am aware, as I pointed out, that when I looked for aid to assist

15 people who required it, and the word is "urgently," from Medjugorje, I did

16 not receive this aid.

17 Q. Sir, I asked you a concrete question. You didn't receive aid, but

18 do you know that that aid was distributed to the citizens of Western

19 Mostar?

20 A. I will accept what you say, but I will also point out that for the

21 people I required aid for, I did not receive it.

22 Q. If we accept what I'm saying, then you agree that it was

23 distributed to the citizens of the Western Mostar. Isn't that so?

24 A. I'm accepting what you say, but I'm also pointing out to you that

25 when I looked for aid myself for specific targets, I did not receive it.

Page 23852

1 Q. Sir, you have said this for the fifth time, but let me ask you for

2 a second time. Was Western Mostar inhabited by both Muslims and Croats,

3 something we have already established? Is that true?

4 A. Yes. [Previous translation continues] ...

5 Q. Will you now look at my pink binder. We're making very slow

6 progress. I'll just show you a couple of documents. 2D 00546. It is the

7 fourth document from the top. That should help you to find it.

8 This is a list. We won't dwell on it for long, but look at the

9 original or the translation. This Crisis Staff, there's a stamp that

10 says: "Crisis Staff for Bosnia and Herzegovina, Split," and the signature

11 says: "Commander of the crisis military staff, Mehmed Malkoc. My

12 question to you was about the Crisis Staff in Split for

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether you know about it, which we see from this

14 document took care of those seriously wounded of the ABiH and the HVO in

15 1992, and here we have a list of 154 such wounded persons who were cared

16 for in Croatia. Those from number 19 to 23 were sent to Iran. We have

17 the names, and we can see that there are both Muslim and Christian names

18 there.

19 My question is were you aware of this particular action that was

20 taken, though there are many such documents, this activity that took place

21 in the territory of the Republic of Croatia during 1992? Were you aware

22 of it? Did you know that Croatia took care of a large number of wounded,

23 including members of the ABiH and Muslim civilians in 1992 and the

24 beginning of 1993 when you were there?

25 A. I was not aware of this.

Page 23853

1 Q. Let me move briefly to the question of hospitals now. When you

2 were talking about the hospital in Eastern Mostar, were you able to

3 establish whether it was really a hospital or an infirmary? Because it

4 was much later in May that the hospital was established in Eastern Mostar,

5 because all the citizens of Mostar were treated in a hospital located in

6 Western Mostar. So when you're talking about a hospital and the shortage

7 of medicines, were you referring to hospitals or to these infirmaries?

8 I'm sure you're aware of the difference.

9 A. In discussions I had with the relevant people in East Mostar, they

10 referred to the buildings as hospitals.

11 Q. And what is your opinion? When you went inside did these appear

12 to you to be hospitals or infirmaries?

13 A. Well, if you define an infirmary as something smaller than a

14 hospital, I would agree that maybe the term "infirmary" was more

15 applicable than hospital.

16 Q. Did you have any information to the effect that medical aid and

17 medical equipment and that even certain patients from Eastern Mostar and

18 Stolac when you were there were treated in Croatia? We are talking about

19 members of both the Armija and Muslims who were treated in Croatia and

20 received medical aid from Croatia, among others.

21 A. No information.

22 Q. I'll come to this document used by my colleague in which

23 Mr. Kapic, whom you had contact with, speaks of this, speaks of the large

24 number of those whom he had operated on during the conflict with the

25 Serbs, and I'm talking about document 1D - you don't have to look for it -

Page 23854

1 01053. He operated on a large number of patients, whereas some were sent

2 to Metkovic and Split where it was safer. But your answer is that you had

3 no information about that; is that right?

4 A. In the particular document you refer to, 1D 01053, I would like to

5 match that with the report that the Prosecution gave yesterday into the

6 article in the newspaper on the same hospital and the conditions in the

7 hospital at that time.

8 Q. With your permission, I had planned to focus on this. We will be

9 moving on to Stolac now, so I'll be glad to discuss the difference between

10 the newspaper article and what Mr. Kapic says in his letter, but let us

11 first see about the way in which and the time when you went to Stolac for

12 the first time.

13 Can you remember when the European mission went to the hospital in

14 Stolac for the first time? You said it was November 1992. Am I right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this the beginning of November 1992?

17 A. Well, as I said to you dates are difficult, but however in

18 Mr. Kapic's letter dated the 28th of November, 1992, as pointed out by

19 Mr. Prlic he mentions the presence of EU representatives in the hospital.

20 So it was obviously before the 28th. And he refers to a number of visits.

21 So I'd say it's possibly early November.

22 Q. Tell me, please, since you yourself said that there were quite a

23 number of check-points among others on the road from Mostar to Stolac,

24 there were HVO check-points, how did you travel? Did you need a pass?

25 And what was the actual procedure for obtaining such pass?

Page 23855

1 A. In the beginning, due to the fact that ECMM had freedom of

2 movement in the area, when we'd arrive at a check-point we would be

3 invariably brought straight through. Subsequent to that, we had to obtain

4 a special pass to go into -- into Stolac.

5 Q. But technically speaking, who did you ask this pass from and how

6 did you obtain it?

7 A. From what I -- sorry. From what I remember, the pass was obtained

8 from the HVO headquarters in Mostar. That I can -- I cannot be 100 per

9 cent sure, except we had to get a special pass.

10 Q. I will show you another document, a series of documents. Can you

11 perhaps recall, let me ask you this, in the period of the beginning of

12 November until the end of December 1992, how many times roughly did

13 representatives of your mission or you yourself visit this hospital in

14 Stolac? I'm asking you this because during your examination, you said

15 that from a certain point in time you had difficulty in going there. So

16 I'm asking you to the best of your recollection how many times did you go

17 there and what kind of problems did you have in going there and contacting

18 those people?

19 A. What dates? Give me the dates again. From the start of November

20 to the end of December.

21 Q. Yes. Well, you've said that you went there for the first time at

22 the beginning of November. Now, I'm asking you up until the end of the

23 year, do you remember how many times you went there, you and members of

24 your mission? How many times did you visit that hospital?

25 A. I would say I was there personally on three occasions, and the

Page 23856

1 members of my mission, other monitors, would have been there maybe seven

2 or eight times in that period.

3 Q. When you asked for permission to go to Stolac, on those requests

4 did you indicate that you wanted to visit the hospital in Stolac, and were

5 you given such permits to pass through the check-points?

6 A. After some discussion with the authorities we received the -- the

7 special permits to pass through. But remember that part of the

8 operational activity of ECMM in the area was freedom of movement. We

9 should not have had to do that.

10 Q. Sir, was Stolac in the war zone in those days when you went to

11 Stolac?

12 A. As you point out, Stolac was more or less on the front line.

13 Q. In the article by the journalist, as well as in the letter that we

14 saw a moment ago shown to you by Mr. Karnavas, it says that Stolac was

15 being shelled on a daily basis from Serb positions. You don't have to

16 read it. Trust me. You say more or less was that a war zone. You're a

17 soldier, I am not. If there are shooting three times a day from Serb

18 positions and a return of fire from Stolac, was that a war zone?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was there an operation ongoing there, a military operation? Thank

21 you. Then you said after some discussion with the authorities regarding

22 the visit to Stolac. Which authorities in Stolac, the official

23 authorities in Stolac or the authorities in Mostar?

24 A. In Mostar.

25 Q. What was the difficulty of obtaining the pass? I see, Mostar. I

Page 23857

1 will show you now in my binder a series of documents and I believe we can

2 cover them quickly to see how things evolved in Mostar. Would you please

3 look at document 2D 00458. It is the sixth document from the top?

4 A. 2D 458?

5 Q. 458. That will help you find it. This is a request addressed to

6 Mr. Bruno Stojic. I have taken it because we have this request.

7 This is an error in the e-court. It's an error in the e-court.

8 You have a hard copy with you. I'll take care that this doesn't happen

9 again.

10 You have this request addressed to Mr. Stojic by your colleague

11 for a list of members who wish to visit Stolac. Do you remember that

12 similar -- such similar requests were addressed? You have it in the

13 original, handwritten by your colleague. Do you remember that?

14 A. Absolutely.

15 Q. Will you please now look at 2D 00549, again in my binder. It is

16 the seventh from the top.

17 A. I have it, yes.

18 Q. Would this be one such authorisation given on the 25th of January?

19 And we see that the gentleman from the European Union mission and a list

20 of names are allowed to travel from Mostar to Stolac. And it also says

21 that all HVO members situated along the route are obliged to give the

22 above-named gentlemen all necessary assistance. And it says that this

23 authorisation is valid from January 25th to January 31st, 1993. Is that

24 right?

25 I will skip over some documents because I don't have time. 2D

Page 23858

1 00551. It is the ninth from the top in your binder.

2 According to our documents, this would be probably the first date

3 when you -- this time it is by you, the request for authorisation. Have

4 you found it? 2D 00551?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 Q. Do you remember this request? And it says that you asked for it.

7 Can you remember whether this perhaps was your first visit to the hospital

8 in Stolac?

9 A. No, it wasn't.

10 Q. So there -- there was a visit before this?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Fine. Let me just make a list of documents. 2D 00559. This is

13 authorisation dated the 20th of November. Then we have 2D 00560,

14 authorisation dated the 24th of November. And on all these authorisations

15 it is explicitly stated that it is requested for the purpose of visiting

16 the hospital in Stolac.

17 Next document 2D 00561 dated the 30th of November, 1992, again

18 your request and the authorisation.

19 2D 00562, this is towards the end of my binder. You can leaf

20 through it, the whole of it. And the authorisation is dated the 10th of

21 December.

22 2D 00550, authorisation dated the 15th of December.

23 2D 00563, an authorisation dated the 19th of December.

24 And the last one, 2D 00 - the last document in the binder - 564,

25 an authorisation dated the 28th of December.

Page 23859

1 Sir, if there were some initial difficulties regarding your visit

2 to Stolac, can you confirm that you asked for these authorisations and

3 received them? And Mr. Stojic who signed all these documents made an

4 effort to make sure that you receive a proper authorisation to visit

5 Stolac whenever you asked for such an authorisation?

6 A. These permits are accurate and, as you say, signed by Mr. Stojic.

7 The point I made at the very beginning was ECMM vehicles had freedom of

8 movement in the area and did not require permits.

9 Q. Sir, I would like to kindly ask you to answer my questions. I

10 asked you whether this was a war zone. I don't want to enter into a

11 dispute with you as to who may have been transported with you to the war

12 zone. Could members of the Serb army have been in your vehicle? What was

13 it the duty of any army in a war zone to check who was entering a war

14 zone? If with these authorisation you were able to enter the municipality

15 of Stolac, my question is whether that is so, whether you had any

16 difficulty with the authorities in Mostar to obtain these authorisations

17 and to reach your destination? That is my question.

18 A. My answer to that is whether you have a special pass or not will

19 not make you more safe or less safe in a war zone. As we approached those

20 check-points on every occasion our vehicles were stopped and the personnel

21 inside were checked. We carried our own identity, our own white uniform

22 as we were referred to earlier on. So the question of carrying Serb

23 personnel in our vehicles, really it's not a serious proposition.

24 Q. Sir, unfortunately I don't have enough time. I have to deal with

25 another three documents with you. But you're a soldier, and you know

Page 23860

1 perfectly well as I do, as does anyone who was in the war zone, and I was

2 there, too, that it was vehicles, even of the UNHCR, that Mujahedin

3 travelled in Central Bosnia, that your vehicles were captured and that

4 enemy soldiers used your vehicles in certain areas. All I wanted to say

5 was that my own layman experience, as compared to your military

6 experience, certainly confirms that these type of checks were necessary in

7 a war zone. That's all I meant to say.

8 A. Just to clarify, you're saying that the issue of a special pass is

9 important in a war zone for particular security reasons, and I'm just

10 saying to you as you pointed out that I am a soldier with a lot of

11 experience. There was no requirement for our vehicles to have these

12 special passes. It was contrary to the agreement set down with the ECMM.

13 Q. Sir, let's move on, because we obviously won't manage to agree on

14 this subject. It's for the Trial Chamber to make a decision.

15 When you received these passes did you have any problems in

16 access?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What do you mean yes?

19 A. Our vehicles were stopped. They were --

20 Q. Sir --

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ... You asked me --

22 Q. Well, I'll withdraw the question, because I see that you insist on

23 repeating something that's already been recorded in the transcript.

24 Let's have a look at the Prosecution document P 10289. It's a

25 newspaper article. P 10289. It's in the Prosecution's binder. Does the

Page 23861

1 witness have that binder? If not, could someone provide him with the

2 binder, or I can provide him with the binder.

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 Q. You have it. Fine. P 10 ...

5 On the first page of the article it says that the Serbs shelled

6 the local hospitals. There's no dispute about the fact that the damage to

7 the hospital was as a result of the Serbian shelling; is that correct?

8 A. Absolutely.

9 Q. Here it says that at about 120 individuals, prior to the 18th of

10 December when the journalist was there, it says that there were about --

11 it says that there were about 120 individuals in the hospital, Serbs,

12 Muslims and Croats. He counted the patients and the members of staff as

13 well.

14 On the second page -- you've probably read this article, but

15 please let's have a look at the information that concerns whom the

16 journalist spoke to. Its it says Obrat Kapor, and then it says Kemo

17 Medar, Huso Ratkusic. It says the first person was a Serb, the second was

18 a Muslims. Huso Ratkusic certainly wasn't a Croat. And it also mentions

19 Dr. Kapic. It also mentions military operations conducted in the area,

20 and it says when one curious monitor of the EC asked to travel to Stolac

21 the local Croatian commander insisted on the fact that the hospital there

22 had been closed down a long time ago. The Croats had been forced to admit

23 their mistake only once the representative of the European Community

24 entered the premises. The journalist received this information from you,

25 from you personally or from your mission; is that correct?

Page 23862

1 A. No. The journalist received this information from speaking to

2 Mr. Kapic.

3 Q. The penultimate paragraph says: "Food from the high commission of

4 the UN for refugees finally arrived, but the Croats requested special

5 passes for representatives of international humanitarian organisations,

6 and they said that their visits could soon be brought to an end."

7 Who provided the journalist with this information? Do you know?

8 Was it Mr. Kapic again?

9 A. I have no idea where he got that information from.

10 Q. Did you know anything about this?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Sir, have a look at 2D 00547. This is my document. It's in the

13 pink binder, not in the Prosecution binder. 2D 00547. I'm interested in

14 the fifth line from above -- the fifth document from the top. I

15 apologise. Can you tell me when you have you've found the document?

16 There's the translation after that document. Of it's a list. I'd

17 like to go through it to see whether we could determine whether -- to

18 determine certain matters. The document doesn't have a date. It doesn't

19 bear a signature, but we have the staff members of the hospital enumerated

20 here. Mehmed Kapic, Mr. Mehmed Kapic is under number 1, the former head

21 of the hospital. And then we have president of Merhamet. Did Mr. Kapic

22 ever tell you that he was also the president of the Merhamet charity at

23 the time when you had contact with him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, sir, did you ever speak to him about whether Merhamet sent

Page 23863

1 any aid to him? Did he receive any aid through the Merhamet charity?

2 A. From a European Commission or community monitoring mission point

3 of view, there was not enough humanitarian aid getting through to Stolac.

4 Q. Sir, you are deliberately avoiding answering my question. My

5 question was very specific. Did you know certain things? Did you ask him

6 about is this? Did Merhamet send humanitarian aid in -- we've had a

7 member of the Merhamet charity appear here, and at the time and

8 subsequently they went to Split. So all I want to know under number 35 we

9 also have the name of the vice-president of Merhamet in this list. So did

10 you have any information that you received from him according to which he

11 received aid from the Merhamet charity?

12 A. No, I had no information.

13 Q. Sir, we have 36 staff members here. I performed analysis. I

14 examined all the staff members, and according to the information I have we

15 can see from this list that these individuals were there at the time that

16 you were in -- were visiting the area. It says with regard to some

17 individuals that they found employment after the liberation. They mean

18 after the occupation of the Serbs, and then it says the individuals under

19 17 and 18 went to the ABiH. But amongst these individuals -- well,

20 it's -- I could say that there are at least six individuals who have

21 Christian names. Can you make a distinction between Christian and Muslim

22 names? Are you able to do so?

23 A. Can I ask you, what is the date of this document?

24 Q. Sir, I have already said that the document does not have a date.

25 I received the document in this form. But I am trying to see whether this

Page 23864

1 is the situation that prevailed when you were in the area. Are you able

2 to make a distinction between Muslim and Croat names? That's my question.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have already

4 used you have one hour. Have you been granted any additional time?

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just one more

6 document I would like to show the witness, and I believe that one of my

7 colleagues will allow me a little extra time, or perhaps I may make use of

8 some of the time that Mr. Karnavas did not use up. I only require another

9 five minutes. May I continue?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas used all his time

11 up.

12 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Well, then I'll be granted some time

13 from the other Defence teams. If I may only have another five minutes.

14 Q. Sir, could you have a look at the page that list the names of

15 patients. It's the second page. In article the names Obrat Kapor are

16 mentioned, Kemo Medar, these people he spoke to and also Huso Ratkusic.

17 Have a look at the name under number 22. It says Kapor. We don't have

18 the first name. And have a look at number 19, Huso Ratkusic, and number

19 20, Kemo Medar. These people are listed as patients at the time that you

20 were there, at the time your journalist was there too. Do you remember

21 this?

22 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President. I have an objection

23 because it's clear we don't have the time frame of the document I think

24 it's incorrect for counsel to suggest that these people were patients in

25 the hospital at the time that the witness and the journalist was there,

Page 23865

1 which is what was just said. So I know that we all have to take the

2 documents in the way they come to us, and unfortunately this one doesn't

3 have a date. So I think it's of very limited use to any of us in terms of

4 its utility.

5 MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I just

6 asked the witness -- we identified the names in P 10289, a Prosecution

7 document. We identified the names. These are the three names of patients

8 that the journalist spoke to, the journalist who wrote an article on the

9 18th of December, 1992, and these are the three names I pointed out in the

10 list of patients. I'm asking the witness if he would accept these are the

11 patients referred to in the article, and can he recognise other names

12 apart from the name of Dr. Kapic in this document.

13 Q. Did you have any contact with these people? Can you recognise any

14 of the names here or not? If not, we'll move on. I'm asking you this

15 because in these lists -- in this list of patients and employees you can

16 see that at least half of them are both Croats or Serbs in relation to

17 Muslims. Among the patients there's almost an identical number of

18 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs. Did you have any such information?

19 A. The information, I mean, I cannot comment on this document because

20 I don't know what date, when it is, where it came from. I can't comment

21 on it.

22 Q. Could you confirm that there were Serbs, Croats, and Muslims in

23 that hospital?

24 A. I can confirm there were.

25 Q. And, sir, finally, with regard to the extent the HVO aided the

Page 23866

1 ABiH you said that you knew nothing about that. Have a look at the first

2 document in my binder 2D 00229. It is marked in a particular way. It's

3 already been admitted. When you find the document, have a look at the

4 document dated the 26th of February, 1993. It was signed by Arif Pasalic.

5 There's no doubt about that. Item 2 concerns the period during which

6 you were there. This is what Pasalic -- Mr. Pasalic says about the

7 relationships with the HVO: "Mr. Orucevic Safet successfully performed

8 major jobs up until now with regard to the entrance of goods with the

9 HVO."

10 I'm referring to this sentence here, this sentence alone, but this

11 sentence shows that Mr. Arif Pasalic, on the 26th of February, 1993,

12 expressed his satisfaction with cooperation with the HVO when it comes to

13 the delivery of goods to the area in which the 4th Corps was present. Did

14 you know anything about that? Did the article mention anything about

15 that?

16 A. No. I'm trying to read this and you're talking at the same time.

17 So maybe if you just give me a minute or two to read the document if

18 that's possible.

19 Q. Sir, I have no more time left. I don't want to deceive you. The

20 document has been admitted into evidence. I asked you, just like the

21 Prosecution asked you, about certain parts of the document. In the case

22 of the Mujahedin, you said that with regard to a certain segment of the

23 document you hadn't heard about that. So I'm just referring to this

24 sentence, this sentence written by Mr. Pasalic in which he said that he

25 was satisfied with cooperation with the HVO when it came to the delivery

Page 23867

1 of goods, and I'm asking you whether he ever mentioned this cooperation

2 when you spoke to him.

3 A. To answer your direct question did he ever mention it to me, no.

4 No.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. That concludes my

6 cross-examination.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Witness, I would

8 like to go back to the passes for the European mission in order to visit

9 the hospital in Stolac. When examining all the documents presented by the

10 Defence, I came to the following conclusion: The vehicles that you used

11 to move around had registration number with the letters EUR and a number.

12 For example, only the 13th of November, you had authorisation for a

13 Mercedes -- two Mercedes, and the numbers were 8715 and 7886. You were to

14 be escorted by the military police on that occasion. So there were

15 vehicles with the registration numbers that belonged to the European

16 mission, and then I have found out that other forms of authorisation were

17 provided on behalf of the European Union.

18 Have a look at document 560 where three individuals -- or, rather,

19 two individuals are mentioned, two individuals and a translator, and the

20 vehicle had a French registration number. So on that day was it also part

21 of the European mission? Could you explain that for me?

22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I did notice that as I went through the

23 different authorisations. I -- no, I'm not aware of what that was.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.

25 THE WITNESS: No. No, I'm not aware of it, Your Honour. No.

Page 23868

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have a look at document 562.

2 It's another authorisation. It bears your name on it. And I noticed that

3 there are apparently two vehicles here, one of which has a registration

4 number in Paris or is registered in Paris. How is that?

5 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour. That's document 2D 561, is it?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 562. That's the last document.

7 It's an authorisation for the 10th of December, an authorisation yet again

8 to visit the Stolac Hospital.

9 I was wondering whether when the European mission visited these

10 places you used resources from the outside too.

11 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, Your Honour, I cannot remember.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 What remains for the Defence now for tomorrow? I believe that we

14 have the Petkovic Defence, the Praljak Defence. Is that correct?

15 Ms. Alaburic -- yes, Mr. Praljak.

16 THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given that I

17 am adhering to what I'm allowed to do, although the commandant says he

18 doesn't like maps, but I do, I think they're very important, I believe

19 they're important in order to see what the actual facts are on the basis

20 of which we can draw conclusions, but I would like to use maps to put some

21 specific questions, especially since my counsel, Mr. Kovacic, is ill. I

22 asked him to appear in the courtroom today. I thought that I would have

23 time to commence with my question today, but if I may, I would like to

24 start first to establish the location of certain things, establish certain

25 numbers, establish certain facts. Thank you very much.

Page 23869

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you will be the

2 first to start tomorrow, and you will be followed by Ms. Alaburic; is that

3 correct? And I believe that Mr. Coric gave his time to Mr. Karnavas. And

4 that is also the case for Mr. Pusic. So that's our schedule for tomorrow.

5 Witness, as you can see, you'll be back tomorrow. We'll be

6 sitting in the afternoon tomorrow. We switched courtrooms today, but

7 tomorrow we will be sitting at 2.15.

8 It's almost time to adjourn, so I do thank you, and I will see you

9 all tomorrow.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.38 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day

12 of October, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.