Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33084

 1                           Tuesday, 14 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Pusic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

10     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al., thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

12     Mr. Registrar.  Today is Tuesday, 14th of October, 2008.  Good morning to

13     the accused, the Defence counsel, the OTP representatives, and all the

14     people helping us.

15             I understood that Mr. Scott wanted to say something.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honours.  Good morning Mr. President; good

17     morning to each of Your Honours; good morning to counsel and all those in

18     and around the courtroom.

19             Your Honour, in light of some of the events yesterday and some of

20     the directions given by the Chamber, I thought it was appropriate just to

21     make a further record on where some of these matters stand, and I did it

22     specifically out of the hearing of the witness just to try to take it as

23     low key, if you will, as possible and not to involve the witness in these

24     procedural matters unnecessarily.

25             First, Your Honour, as I'm sure you know by now, while the

Page 33085

 1     Prosecution -- the Prosecution acknowledges and appreciates receiving a

 2     letter late last evening, and let me be very clear about that so no one

 3     misses it.  The Prosecution appreciates the obvious effort that went into

 4     getting us the letter late last night.

 5             Now, having said that, the Prosecution, we stand by our position.

 6     The Prosecution categorically rejects and will continue to reject any

 7     position at getting such a letter at midnight before court at 9.00 a.m.

 8     the following day when the summary is six months late cures the problem

 9     or somehow shifts the penalty for or the responsibility to deal with that

10     violation to the victim of that violation.  That's what people call

11     blaming the victim.

12             Further, the letter in reality provides very little substantive

13     information except to repeat and slightly different ways the same

14     argument Mr. Karnavas has now made ad infinitum and that is that the

15     Prosecution should have known, the Prosecution could have expected, the

16     Prosecution might have guessed.  It goes on repeatedly in the letter, and

17     I'll just cite the Chamber to a few examples.

18             On page 2, it was to be understood, a matter which has been

19     covered throughout the trial, he could be expected to testify about,

20     quite naturally by virtue of his position would be expected to know, it

21     is widely known, Mr. Zelenika would be expected to know, someone holding

22     such a position as Mr. Zelenika would be expected to know, as the

23     Prosecution knows, Mr. Zelenika would be expected.  That's not a summary.

24     That's same arguments that Mr. Karnavas has been making for some weeks

25     now and which the Prosecution has rejected on every occasion and rejects

Page 33086

 1     this morning.  That is not a summary, and just so the record is very

 2     clear on the future of this issue and unfortunately I predict it may not

 3     go away.  Had this information, had this letter been provided to us

 4     earlier we would not consider this a sufficient summary.  It is not a

 5     summary required by the Rules.  It's just the same letter making the

 6     arguments Mr. Karnavas has made over the past weeks.  This is not a

 7     summary.  This is not what 65 ter requires.

 8             As I said yesterday and I'm say it again today and I'll say it

 9     again tomorrow, if necessary, that argument, the argument that shifts the

10     responsibility on the Prosecution to somehow deal with it is completely

11     false, completely disingenuous and has nothing to do, and I repeat has

12     nothing to do with the other party meeting its obligations under the

13     Rules, and I decline -- the Prosecution, Your Honour, declines the

14     responsibility to take any extraordinary efforts to cure a violation by

15     another party.  That is that party's responsibility.  That responsibility

16     lies with the other party, and it is up to the Court of course whether it

17     wishes to enforce the Rules or not.

18             Your Honour, in light of the events, in light of the letter last

19     night I wanted to make the Prosecution position very clear.  I may try

20     having made that record to be a bit quieter today.  Maybe I will succeed,

21     maybe I won't, but I wanted to be very clear on that position, Your

22     Honour.  This letter cures nothing.  It does not shift any burden onto

23     the Prosecution.  The Prosecution position is there is a Rule violation,

24     there continues to be a Rule violation, and the burden does not fall on

25     the Prosecution to fix it.

Page 33087

 1             Thank you.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may briefly respond.  Mr. President, Your

 3     Honours, good morning.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, the Trial Chamber

 5     believes that this discussion should not continue.  You sent this letter

 6     as required by the Trial Chamber.  Mr. Scott is telling us that he's not

 7     satisfied, that the Rules have been violated.  You've already heard the

 8     view of the Trial Chamber.

 9             In the future, I say in the future, you will have to prepare

10     summaries giving the facts that will be underlying the

11     examination-in-chief so that the Prosecutor is in a position to prepare

12     for his cross-examination and for the Rules to apply and to be applied.

13     Everybody knows that, and I think you got the message.

14             Personally, I hate preventing counsel from doing his work.  It's

15     not in my nature.  I do everything I can to avoid that.

16             In the future, you must make sure that you have comprehensive

17     factual summaries.  This is demanded by the Rules.  And Mr. Scott is

18     right in asking for the Rules to apply just as much as you are entitled

19     to ask the Prosecutor to provide you with information.  This is what you

20     had requested during the Prosecution case.

21             So let's not spend minutes if not hours on this.  We have six

22     accused, and they are -- they have been in custody for several years now.

23     They are entitled to a trial that does not last too long.  We must make

24     every possible effort for the trial to unfold in good pace whilst

25     safeguarding everybody's rights.

Page 33088

 1             Do you want to continue?

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just two minutes, Your Honour, just to point out,

 3     just to point out that in the letter, we make reference to a decision

 4     made by the Trial Chamber back on -- on 20th of May, 2008.  I also make

 5     reference to Mr. Stringer's letter to us.  And contrary to some of the

 6     comments that were directed to us by Judge Trechsel, we have made a good

 7     faith effort.  Perhaps we have fallen short, but we were -- we proceeded

 8     with the understanding that what we had provided was sufficient when you

 9     consider not just the summary but the paragraphs to the indictment and

10     also the documents that specifically pointed out that we would be using

11     in -- with this particular witness.  So it's not somewhat of a fishing

12     expedition.  They weren't inundated with a sea of documents.  They were

13     specifically notified what documents and from that, they would have been

14     able to glean that this gentleman with his position would be competent to

15     testify about such matters as the payment bureau.

16             That said, I take your -- your instructions, and we will do

17     better, but I certainly wish to under -- underscore, because I think

18     there is the impression, at least I have the perception from comments and

19     the attitudes that have come from certain members of the Bench that we

20     are deliberately obstructing the process and we are conducting ourselves

21     unethically, and if that is the case, then we should perhaps schedule a

22     hearing on an order to show cause on that, because we are entitled to due

23     process.

24             That's all, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, for Mr. Coric.

Page 33089

 1             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2     I should only like to get an opportunity to say a few words.  I don't

 3     need more than a couple of minutes.

 4             Regarding yesterday's discussion about part of the evidence given

 5     in the courtroom by the last witness -- by the current witness on a topic

 6     not specifically identified in the 65 ter summary.

 7             I remembered and I checked yesterday the transcript of Witness E

 8     who testified on the 11th September 2007.  The Prosecutor was questioning

 9     the witness on Dretelj topics.  It is page of the transcript 22085,

10     beginning with line 15, and there is, in fact, no mention of Dretelj

11     either in the summary or in any other notification, and I objected to

12     this questioning because the Defence had not been able to adequately

13     prepare for such examination.

14             On page 22086, lines 1 to 8, we have the decision of the Trial

15     Chamber wherein the Trial Chamber says the witness is competent to

16     witness -- to give evidence on Dretelj camp.  It doesn't matter that it's

17     not in the summary, that the Defence should have been prepared for that

18     and to respond adequately.

19             The Trial Chamber can verify what I'm saying.  So can Mr. Scott.

20     And I'm saying this only to remind you of the positions taken, because

21     yesterday's topic was analogous, and the Trial Chamber took a completely

22     different stand.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] good morning.  May I also say a

24     few sentences?

25             The Defence of General Petkovic tried yesterday with several

Page 33090

 1     witnesses to compare three statements that we have.  One is a summary of

 2     a statement -- correction, not three statements, three documents.

 3             One of the documents is the summary of a statement.  The second

 4     document is the statement itself, and the third document is testimony.

 5     If we compare these three documents, we will see that there are dramatic

 6     differences between them.

 7             In the summary there is no reference even to whole topics let

 8     alone facts related to parts of the statement, whereas testimony contains

 9     even more additional topics because the Prosecution used documents to

10     deal with topics that were not covered even by the statement, let alone

11     the summary.

12             We will make a comparative analysis of the evidence given by

13     several randomly chosen witnesses so the Trial Chamber has an opportunity

14     to acquaint themselves with the summaries for these witnesses that were

15     not provided to the Trial Chamber and to show that the Prosecution, when

16     they mention summaries, actually refer to statements prepared for

17     particular witnesses.  And I believe this comparative analysis will help

18     us resolve this dilemma concerning summaries.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

20             Let's have the witness brought in, please, Mr. Usher.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22                           WITNESS:  MIRKO ZELENIKA [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 33091

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sorry for the delay.  We had to

 2     deal with a point of procedure.

 3             I hope you had a good evening.  And I'll ask Mr. Karnavas to

 4     proceed with his examination-in-chief.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  If we could get the usher to help us out and

 6     provide the witness the binder.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas:  [Continued]

 8        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   We're going to pick up where we left off yesterday at the very

11     same document that we were discussing, 973.  We hadn't finished on that

12     document yet.  It's the first document on the chapter under "Economy."

13     And in this particular order that's dated 8 May 1992, we see that the

14     municipality was taking certain equipment and availing itself to certain

15     resources from the SDK, the public accounting -- the Public Auditing

16     Service, and the Sarajevo Commercial Bank.

17             At that point in time, can you tell us whether the Yugoslav dinar

18     was circulating in and around Jablanica municipality, and if so, what was

19     its value?

20        A.   I can tell you that.  The Yugoslav dinar was in circulation, but

21     it had absolutely no market value because you could buy nothing with it

22     and nobody wanted to take it.

23        Q.   Had you -- were you aware at the time how the Public Auditing

24     Service, the SDK, worked?

25        A.   I was.

Page 33092

 1        Q.   Okay.  And can you tell us whether it was working within the

 2     municipality of Jablanica.

 3        A.   The SDK was not able to operate at all because it had been part

 4     of a system of a network which is the social accountancy service at the

 5     level of the State of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it had an organisational

 6     unit in each municipality, but since the state had broken down in all its

 7     aspects, the SDK had also broken down.  It was the vehicle of the payment

 8     system, and the payment system itself broke down.  Payments ceased.  All

 9     that was left of the SDK in Jablanica was a building in which you could

10     get no business done.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, yesterday I asked you a question about, if you

12     may recall, in one of the minutes where two individuals from, I believe,

13     the Crisis Staff were to be dispatched to Grude to have some discussions,

14     and I had asked you about how was payment going to take place, and you

15     indicated, as I recall, that it would be some sort of a bartering system.

16     You would give granite or wood, timber, or whatever resources you had in

17     exchange for the services; is that correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   What about money?  What sort of currency was being circulated or

20     being used at the time in Jablanica so that citizens could meet their --

21     their daily needs?

22        A.   At the time we are discussing, the citizens were able to meet

23     their daily needs if they had German Deutschmarks or the Croatian dinar.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, where would the Croatian dinar be coming from,

25     or the German marks, for that matter?

Page 33093

 1        A.   The foreign currency came from the market in the Republic of

 2     Croatia.  Namely, many businesses in Jablanica had warehouses in the

 3     Republic of Croatia from which they traded.  They had earlier earned

 4     payments due to them from prior businesses, and they had non-residence

 5     accounts in various places in the Republic of Croatia from where all this

 6     currency arrived.

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you to speak a little slower.  Not too slow, but

 8     a little slower.  This is to assist our translators, okay?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the next document, 1D 00783.  We

11     looked at this very briefly, yesterday, but again I just want to point

12     out or have you point out a couple things to us.

13             This is 10 May 1992.  It's signed by the president of the Crisis

14     Staff, Hamdo Sefer.  Now -- and if we look at the currencies listed, we

15     see the dinar.  As I understand it you indicated that would be the

16     Yugoslav dinar.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   The German mark, and then we see Croatian dinars.  And I don't

19     know whether I asked you this yesterday, but was the Bosnian and

20     Herzegovinian dinar in circulation at that time?

21        A.   You did not ask me that yesterday, and the BH dinar was not in

22     circulation, and nobody ever saw it in Jablanica during the war.

23        Q.   All right.  Why was it necessary to list the fuel prices with --

24     with German marks or Croatian dinars?  Why not just use the Yugoslav

25     dinar?

Page 33094

 1        A.   In fact, you could not buy fuel for the Yugoslav dinar.  You

 2     could buy it for other currencies that I mentioned -- that are mentioned

 3     here.  The Yugoslav dinar was indicated just for purposes of comparison.

 4     Yugoslav dinars were not in circulation, and you could not buy fuel for

 5     them.

 6        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document, 1D 00914.  Here we

 7     have a conclusion by the Crisis Staff.  It's signed by President

 8     Nijaz Ivkovic.  And what national is Mr. Ivkovic?

 9        A.   Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic is Muslim by ethnicity.

10        Q.   And on -- on that -- at that period of time, we're talking June

11     1992, the Crisis Staff, could you please give us the breakdown between

12     how many Muslims, how many Serbs, how many Croats on there?

13        A.   I can tell you straight away there were no Serbs.  Sorry, what

14     did you say, the 10th?

15        Q.   Well, this date here, around June 1992 when Mr. --

16        A.   10th June, yes, I see.

17        Q.   17th June.

18        A.   17th June.  As I said, there were no Serbs.  There were four

19     Croats, and the rest were Muslims.

20        Q.   All right.  And who were in the majority?

21        A.   The majority of this Crisis Staff were Muslims.  They had an

22     absolute majority.

23        Q.   Now, if you look at this conclusion we see that -- it says 150

24     CRD and 120 CRD.  What is that?  What does that mean?

25        A.   That means that this staff dominated by the majority I described

Page 33095

 1     decided to designate the price in Croatian dinars because it was the only

 2     currency for which you could buy fuel at that time.

 3        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 00 --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm looking at this

 5     document.  If I understand properly, on the 17th of June, 1992, in the

 6     Jablanica municipality we had a Muslim component.  Is that right?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour, but would you

 8     just clarify which component you meant, military or civilian.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the civilian

10     part.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  They had an

12     absolute majority.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Therefore, they,

14     with regard to the fuel prices, they are the ones establishing or using

15     the Croatian dinar as the applicable currency; is that right?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I understood

18     properly.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, since we've had a bit of a

20     pause, can I just ask since that issue has come up on majority, what I

21     heard from the testimony was there were no Serbs.  There were four

22     Croats, and the rest were Muslim.  I might wonder if counsel could assist

23     us by how many were Muslims, other than just leaving it.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  I can ask that question --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] yes.

Page 33096

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- but certainly I can't let this go without

 2     noting this is a sort of question that should be coming up on

 3     cross-examination but since this is of interest to everyone.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us how many Muslims were on the Crisis

 5     Staff at that time if you can recall?

 6        A.   At least ten.

 7        Q.   And how many Croats again?

 8        A.   Three -- four.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 00790.

10     We see this is a decision, and if we look at the very last page, it's

11     dated 10 August 1992, again signed by Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic.  And here if we

12     just look at -- look through the document we see mentioned, say in

13     Article 6 or Article 7, we see references to the German mark.  Do you see

14     that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And of course the German mark was not the official currency in

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, was it?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we look at the very last page, it says here:  "All

20     funds collected in this way shall be transferred to a special account of

21     the Jablanica municipality Crisis Staff and shall be used to finance the

22     general and collective needs of the population of Jablanica municipality

23     and members of the armed forces in wartime conditions in the period of

24     July/September 1992."

25             Now, when it makes reference here to the -- to members of the

Page 33097

 1     armed forces, what is this document referring to as members of the armed

 2     forces?  And we're speaking 10 August 1992.

 3        A.   The Muslim armed forces are understood, not the HVO.

 4        Q.   All right.  But at that point in time given your earlier

 5     testimony, was there still that agreement between 80 per cent and 20 per

 6     cent?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If we go on to the next document, 1D 00333.  And here I want you

 9     to focus your attention to Article II, where it says:  "In the entities

10     referred to in item I of this order -- if the entities us referred to in

11     item I of this order fail to meet their tax obligations in line with the

12     current municipal regulations before the deadline set by the inspection

13     team, which has been given powers to do the work of the financial police,

14     in the public sector ..."

15             And then if we go on to the Article III.  Do you see that the BH

16     armed forces are to be lending assistance in this process?

17             Can you please help us without with this document?  What exactly

18     is happening, or what exactly is this order trying to do?

19        A.   I believe I can help.  It's obvious that the tax levying

20     decisions that were adopted were not being implemented.  There is

21     something unusual about this.  The authority to levy taxes was something

22     that the social income administration used to be in charge of before it

23     was a municipal body, and now this is being passed along to some

24     municipal secretariat for finance with the assistance of the armed forces

25     and public security stations.  Never before had taxes been collected in

Page 33098

 1     this way with the assistance of armed forces and public security stations

 2     so one thing is obvious that this is just not working.

 3        Q.   All right.  Incidentally, I know I asked you yesterday, but

 4     perhaps you might help us out again focusing on this particular order.

 5     Did the -- the HVO in Jablanica, did they issue any such orders?  In

 6     other words, to use the civilian HVO, to use members of the HVO military

 7     to go out and try to collect taxes in any particular area the HVO or the

 8     HZ HB was operating in Jablanica municipality?

 9        A.   Certainly not.

10        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01460.  This is

11     a decision on imposing war taxes on citizens.  And just very briefly, can

12     you tell us what currency now is being used as -- as a basis for tax

13     collection?

14        A.   In this decision we are back to the German mark as the currency

15     being used for taxes.

16        Q.   All right.  But if you look at, for instance, Article 3, it says:

17     "It is hereby determined --" this is on the second paragraph of Article

18     3.  "It is hereby determined that a tax of 20 per cent will be payable in

19     BH dinars, and that the exchange rates shall be determined according to

20     the market value."

21             So based on this, was the BH dinar now circulating and, if so,

22     what was its market value at the time, assuming it had one.

23        A.   Again the BH dinar was not around at the time.  It wasn't just

24     me.  No one in Jablanica had ever set eyes on it.  Therefore, it couldn't

25     be used as a means of payment.

Page 33099

 1        Q.   All right.

 2        A.   This was more of a psychological thing.  That's the sort of value

 3     that it had in terms of its importance.

 4        Q.   All right.  Well, what do you mean by that, very briefly, because

 5     it's kind of an elusive concept.

 6        A.   People were talking about the fact that the BH dinar had come

 7     into existence, but it had not yet physically reached Jablanica.  No one

 8     had so far set eyes on it.  That was my explanation.

 9        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next chapter, and we're going to

10     try to move a little quicker if we could.  This deals with sort of the

11     civilian authorities, and I first want to start off with document

12     1D 00785, dated 11 May 1992.  This is a decision --

13        A.   I'm sorry, could you just tell me what the name is for that

14     chapter?

15        Q.   I'm sorry.  I got ahead of myself.  So move to the next -- the

16     next chapter will be movement and mobilisation.  I apologise.  My

17     documents got a little mixed up.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a question

19     which -- a follow-up question which has nothing to do with the present

20     document.  I would like to know in your locality there was Banjica

21     [as interpreted] at the time.  Was there a bank agency, was there a

22     branch?  Was there a branch, a bank, or was there no branch of a bank?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm not quite certain

24     about what you're trying to find out.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My question, in your locality,

Page 33100

 1     in your place Jablanica, in 1992 was there a bank or a branch of a bank?

 2     Was there any bank with a branch in this place, or was there no branch of

 3     a bank there?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour, and I'll

 5     try to answer.

 6             There was a branch which was an outpost of the Sarajevo Privredna

 7     bank which had a local office in Jablanica.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So there was a

 9     branch in Jablanica.  When people went to the bank to get some money or

10     to deposit some money they deposited Croatian dinars or Deutschmarks?

11     What currency were they using?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, no one was depositing

13     anything because the Yugoslav dinar had no value at all.  As to the

14     foreign currencies that you mentioned, those who had any, kept it back,

15     because prior to the war there had been restrictions on how much one

16     could take out of the bank.  There needed to be a situation of urgency

17     such as illness or something like that.  One needed to show documents in

18     order to collect a certain amount.  People were not free to do as they

19     saw fit with their foreign currencies even before the war.  So no one

20     even went to this bank.  It was just another building just like the SDK.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

22     ... more clearly.  Witness, I also have a follow-up question.  In which

23     currency or money were the agents of the municipality were they paid, the

24     officials of the municipality?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the employees of the

Page 33101

 1     municipality were not being paid at all, and that included me.  There

 2     were no salaries.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:

 5        Q.   Just to follow up on the question that was asked by the

 6     President, going back to the first document in the previous chapter.

 7     That would be 1D 00973.  This is the very first document that we started

 8     off today with.

 9             It says here "the PBS Sarajevo commercial bank."  Do you see

10     that?  It's the very first document, right there.  I think you have it

11     right there.

12             And if we go on and read the order it says that branches --

13     branch offices and post office to place all their material and technical

14     equipment, resources, and money at the disposal of the Jablanica

15     municipal crisis staff.  Is that the same bank that you were just

16     describing, or is this a different bank?

17        A.   It's the same one.

18        Q.   So for all intents and purposes, all the resources that this bank

19     had by virtue of this order now were being used or at the disposal of the

20     Crisis Staff.  Is that how we're to understand this order?

21        A.   The order, yes, but I was there myself and I can tell you that

22     the order never materialised.  Those who had some cash in terms of dinars

23     handed it over, and there was a foreign currency.  They just hid it away,

24     and there was nothing we could do about that.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go on to the next chapter --

Page 33102

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's first of all -- Witness,

 2     let's finish, but we have already devoted many hours to this.  Each

 3     answer gives rise to a new question.

 4             I suppose that in Jablanica, whether it was Croats or Muslims,

 5     had members of their family working in Germany or in Italy or in

 6     Switzerland or in France, I don't know, and I suppose these people were

 7     sending them money, therefore -- to help them out.  To help them out.  Ol

 8     parent in Jablanica, elderly people, a son working in Frankfurt could

 9     send them a sum of money.  And this money, was it going through the PBS

10     bank in Jablanica?  Was it going through that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  For as long as the PBS was

12     still operating, these transactions did not go through the bank.  One

13     would simply physically bring the money back when returning from Germany

14     or another country.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  Very

16     well.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:

18        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next -- the next chapter dealing

19     with movement and mobilisation.  At least that's what we've titled it as.

20     And I'm going to refer you to the first document.  It's 1D 00781.

21     1D 00781.  And we see that it's dated 10 April, 1992, signed by President

22     Sefer Hamdo.

23             Do you have that document, sir?

24        A.   Sure.

25        Q.   Okay.  And here it says that:  "All citizens of Jablanica

Page 33103

 1     municipality are hereby advised not to move out of the municipality since

 2     the Presidency believes that there is no need for such actions as yet."

 3             Then it talks about -- I'll skip number 2.  And in number 3 it

 4     says:  "The municipal Presidency hereby forbids all citizens capable of

 5     working, and particularly persons eligible for military service, to leave

 6     the municipality."

 7             Can you please explain this to us?  What is going on?

 8        A.   This document is more by way of information or announcement.

 9     It's a proclamation.  It's not an order.  Despite this proclamation

10     people had already begun to move out because of what was happening in the

11     broader Jablanica area.  This proclamation was meant to be a pre-emptive

12     one.

13        Q.   All right.  1D 00782.  We see a decision to set up check-points

14     at the exits of Jablanica municipality.  And then we can see that it's

15     from Jablanica to Mostar, Konjic, and Prozor, and it talks about to

16     improve traffic, security control, and to prevent theft.

17             And I asked you this question yesterday:  Who was implementing

18     this particular decision?  Who were manning, in other words, the

19     check-points?

20        A.   The decision was being implemented by the reserve forces of the

21     public security station.  The reservists from the public security

22     station.

23        Q.   Now, that was back in April 1992.  Did that continue after April

24     1992 and into 1993, or did that situation change?  In other words, were

25     check-points at any given time manned by others?

Page 33104

 1        A.   Yes.  Towards the end of 1992, the situation changed

 2     significantly.

 3        Q.   Okay.  When that situation changed who was actually at those

 4     check-points?

 5        A.   It was no longer just the police reserve.  They were now joined

 6     by soldiers, soldiers from elsewhere who just happened to be in Jablanica

 7     as refugees.  People from Foca, east Bosnia, Rogatica, Rudo, and so on

 8     and so forth.  They put on uniforms and they started manning those

 9     check-points, which caused a great deal of concern among the locals

10     because there were now people from other areas holding the check-points.

11        Q.   Well, who was -- who was in charge?

12        A.   For the most part the Muslim armed forces.

13        Q.   All right if we look at the next document, 1D --

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, just not to remain in an error, it reads

15     in the English text "partial roadblocks."  Could you explain in what

16     sense partial?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, Your Honour.  The road was

18     not fully blocked.  In Jablanica there was a Granit factory and sometimes

19     these blocks weigh 12 tonnes or more.  It was possible for us to simply

20     drag two of those huge granite blocks along and simply half the road in

21     terms of bread as it were.  The road was not completely blocked.  It was

22     just narrowed as it were.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:

25        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document 1D 01447, just very

Page 33105

 1     briefly.  This is a decision where it says:  "The departure of vehicles

 2     abroad is hereby suspended..." and there was an exception.  Why was this

 3     decision passed, if you know?

 4        A.   I do.  The decision was passed on account of the fact that some

 5     vehicles by this time, and they're talking here about cars, company-owned

 6     cars, had left and went abroad by this time, and no one returned, not the

 7     persons driving those vehicles, not the vehicles themselves.  So this was

 8     meant to be a pre-emptive thing and the reason it was passed is because

 9     some people had left already and did not seem to be returning.

10        Q.   And they weren't returning the vehicles as well?

11        A.   That's right, yes.  I've never seen a vehicle returned without

12     the driver, have I?

13        Q.   Okay.  1D 01448.  17 April 1992.  This is a decision.  Here we

14     see:  "Citizens from 18 to 60 years of age fit for work are hereby banned

15     from going abroad."  What is this about?

16        A.   This is about the ban imposed on military conscripts.  They are

17     being banned from going abroad.  Age group 18 to 60.  The only exception

18     being medical treatment that was urgent and a number of other such

19     exceptional is conditions.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, what if somebody needed to go abroad because

21     they fit with one of these exceptions?  Did they need to get permission?

22     Was there some sort of a permit, and, if so, who would issue that permit?

23        A.   Yes, a permit would be issued, and this was something that was

24     issued by the secretariat for All People's Defence, which was a municipal

25     body.

Page 33106

 1        Q.   All right.  1D 00960.  Here's another order.  This is April 28.

 2     "All Jablanica citizens from 18 to 60 ... who are subject to work

 3     obligation but left this municipality are hereby ordered to return within

 4     five days."

 5             Can you explain what this order was all about, even though it's

 6     somewhat self-evident?

 7        A.   Sure.  Again we're talking about military conscripts.  Despite

 8     all of these bans some managed to leave or were outside the municipal

 9     area when the ban came into force.  Therefore, this is meant to be an

10     order for them to return within five days.

11        Q.   All right.  But here it says:  "All Jablanica citizens ... that

12     are subject to work obligation."

13             My question is would this include women as well?

14        A.   Based on this decision that would seem to be the case, because

15     women, too, can be subject to work obligation.

16        Q.   All right.  1D 00980.  This is 14 May 1992, and this talks about

17     immediately carrying out a general mobilisation, and it specifies Doljani

18     local commune.  Do you know why this was targeted to this particular

19     location?

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm told that the accused are not getting a

21     translation -- or no one.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm just hearing my own --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  It's okay.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:

Page 33107

 1        Q.   All right.  Looking at this document 1D 00980, can you please

 2     tell us why there was an order for the immediate mobilisation to Doljani

 3     local commune?  Why this commune, and not, let's say, other areas, if you

 4     know?

 5        A.   I do.  The Jablanica Crisis Staff adopted this order because a

 6     day or two before, a military plane of the JNA had bombed the area around

 7     the villages specified.  Therefore an order like this had to be

 8     forthcoming.

 9        Q.   Okay.  We're gonna skip one document in order to save time.  In

10     fact, we can skip the next document as well, so we'll skip what's in your

11     binder as 1D 00987 and 988, and let's just go straight to 1D 01455.  This

12     was 21 July 1992.  Again, this is a general -- a decision on general

13     mobilisation and again we see Doljani, Sovici, and Slatina.

14             Can you please explain to us what is happening at this particular

15     point in time, and why is this targeted to these particular areas?

16        A.   This is exactly the same thing as the one before.  This is about

17     JNA military planes bombing this entire area.

18        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 00343.  This is

19     10 November now, 1992.  Here we have an order which essentially says that

20     all military fit persons between 18 and 55 that are on the territory of

21     the Jablanica municipality, they're being ordered to return to their

22     permanent place of residence by 20 November 1992.

23             So here it looks like certain persons who are military fit are

24     being asked to evacuate the Jablanica municipality and return to where

25     they came from.  Can you please explain what is happening?  Are they

Page 33108

 1     being deported?  Are they being forced out?  What is going on?

 2        A.   They're not being forced out.  They left at an earlier date of

 3     their own free will, but now the municipal Presidency is asking them

 4     back, telling them to get in touch with the BH armed forces Main Staff

 5     upon their return.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Well, I want to make sure that you understand me.  Are

 7     they now to be mobilised in Jablanica municipality to fight for

 8     Jablanica, are they to return to where they came from?

 9        A.   It seems to follow from this that they should be returned to

10     their place of permanent residence, which means the area that they had

11     come from.

12        Q.   Well, what if the area where they came from is -- is unsafe

13     because there maybe military activity going on?

14        A.   In Jablanica's case this is precisely how it was like.  All those

15     from Eastern Bosnia who happened to be in or around Jablanica who were

16     unable to return to their earlier places of residence, they were unable

17     to return to east Bosnia.

18        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just ask one question.  Why didn't the

19     Jablanica municipality mobilise these military-aged men to have them

20     fight for Jablanica municipality?

21        A.   Some of them had been mobilised by this time as needed.  This is

22     about further mobilisation, about further bringing up manpower levels in

23     terms of mobilised persons.

24        Q.   All right.  Where are they supposed to be mobilised?  I guess

25     that's what I'm trying to -- if you could please look at Article I.  Who

Page 33109

 1     is going to be mobilising them if it's not Jablanica?

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, forgive for interrupting, but

 3     I have the impression that we may have fallen back into asking the

 4     witness to simply read and talk about what he sees on the face of the

 5     document as opposed to what personal knowledge he can actually add to it.

 6     All of us in the courtroom can read the document.  I mean, unless the

 7     witness has personal knowledge and can add something to it other than

 8     telling us what the document says and Mr. Karnavas now just points him to

 9     a particular part of the document and says, "Is that what it says," all

10     we're doing is reading the documents.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll lay a foundation.

12        Q.   At that point in time, sir, were you still in the War Presidency?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Okay.  Were you in and around Jablanica at the time?

15        A.   I was in Jablanica.

16        Q.   Can you please describe to us how many refugees were in

17     Jablanica, particularly men of military age, between the ages of 18 to

18     55, if you know, from your personal observations being in Jablanica at

19     the time?

20        A.   I can say that.  I was in the War Presidency until the 29th

21     October.  Until then we received daily reports from the headquarters for

22     admission of refugees, and I had information until the month of October

23     that the number of these refugees exceeded the local population of

24     Jablanica, which was 12.600, according to the census.  According to the

25     estimate of the headquarters for admission of refugees the refugees at

Page 33110

 1     that time numbered over 15.000, and among them there were 5 to 7.000

 2     military-age men.

 3        Q.   All right.  If we look at the next document, 1D 01007.  Here's an

 4     order that all refugees liable for military service from the area of

 5     Eastern Bosnia who are currently in the territory of Jablanica

 6     municipality, they're being asked to return to those areas.

 7             If you know, at that point this time, this is 11 April 1993, what

 8     is happening in Eastern Bosnia, if you know?

 9        A.   In Eastern Bosnia this time and for a year before, there was a

10     war going on.  The Serb forces attacked Eastern Bosnia about a year

11     before this date, and the war was going on.  This order simply could not

12     be enforced, nor could anyone go back.

13        Q.   All right.  If you would go to 1D 00349.  This is an order by

14     Dr. Cibo, dated 25 April 1993.  And here we see he's calling for

15     immediate mobilisation, and we see the ages of 15 to 65.

16             Now, from your experiences, is the age 15, is that unusual or was

17     that common at the time?

18        A.   As far as I know this is unusual, because only those who are of

19     age can be mobilised, that means over 18.  This, however, indicates 15 to

20     65, and this decision is contrary to what we had read before.  The

21     previous document said they should leave Jablanica, and this one says

22     once they are in Jablanica already they should be mobilised into the BH

23     army.

24        Q.   All right.  We'll go on to the next chapter, and this deals with

25     civilian authorities.  And the first document is 1D 00785.  Just very

Page 33111

 1     quickly.  This is 11 May 1992, and we see that this is a decision on

 2     your -- you being elected to the Executive Committee or chairman of the

 3     Executive Committee of Jablanica municipality.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   All right.  And by virtue of this position now you are a member

 6     of the Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   The next -- next one is 1D 01456.  Here this is 21 July 1992, and

 9     here we see that the Crisis Staff is being renamed to the War Presidency;

10     is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   And I know we touched upon it yesterday a little bit, but did the

13     composition of the War Presidency change in any way?  In other words,

14     were new members added and, if so, where would they have come from?

15        A.   Well, the composition changed when I came, because I replaced a

16     Muslim.

17        Q.   No, I'm not speaking as far as ethnicities.  What I'm saying is

18     did they -- did additional members come on board the War Presidency, say,

19     from other institutions?  Okay.  So all --

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] -- in other words?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   All right.  1D 03038, that's the next document.  And this is

24     dated 29 October 1992, and by this decision we see that you are being

25     relieved as president of the Executive Board of Jablanica municipality;

Page 33112

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was actually replaced and sent to temporary work at the

 3     public security station.

 4        Q.   All right.  And this document, where did this come from?  Had you

 5     seen this document before, sir?

 6        A.   I received it in 1992.

 7        Q.   All right.  And did you give this document to the Defence, to us?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, in this --

10             MR. SCOTT:  Sorry, can we get the number again, it wasn't in the

11     transcript.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  1D 03038.

13             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   Now, in this document it says that you are being temporarily sent

16     to work in the public security station.  Had you ever -- had you had any

17     training in public security matters?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Okay.  And when it says temporarily, what does that mean, and how

20     was it that you were sent there?

21        A.   The thing was temporary because the Presidency was aware that the

22     procedure of regulating one's legal and employment status in the police

23     had to be determined in Sarajevo, and it was physically impossible to

24     reach Sarajevo, and they were perfectly aware that I could not go there

25     and get the idea of an authorised police officer, and that's why they

Page 33113

 1     wrote temporarily.

 2        Q.   All right 1D 00324.  This is 29 October 1992, and here is a

 3     decision to elect the chairman and members of the Executive Committee,

 4     and now we see that it's Ivan Rogic who is being elected chairman of the

 5     Executive Committee of Jablanica municipality.  I take it this is the

 6     individual that replaced you.  Is that correct?  And he's a Croat?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And all the other members that we can see that were being

 9     elected, they are Muslim; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go on to the next document, 1D --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One technical matter,

13     Mr. Karnavas.  Document 1D 03038, is it part of the 65 ter list or not?

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, we -- this is a document that we

15     received from the gentleman when he came.  We sent it to everyone.  And

16     the reason that I mentioned where we got -- I wanted the gentleman to

17     confirm that he gave this document to us was to lay the foundation as to

18     how it came into our possession.  We received this when the gentleman

19     arrived.  We had it translated, and we circulated it to everyone.  And we

20     will be adding it to the 65 ter list.  But this was just to confirm that

21     he was -- the date of his departure from the -- as the president of the

22     Executive Board.

23             Can I continue?  Thank you.

24        Q.   If we go on to the next document, 1D 00338.  This is now 7 -- 2nd

25     November 1992, and this is a decision on setting up a commission to

Page 33114

 1     resolve incidents occurring in the Jablanica municipality, and we see

 2     that the very first person as president of the commission is Matan Zaric.

 3     He's obviously a Croat; correct?  And as I --

 4        A.   Right.

 5        Q.   And as I understand it, and I could be wrong, he was also the

 6     president of the HDZ in Jablanica municipality, or do I have it wrong?

 7        A.   No, no, no.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9        A.   He was the vice-president of the War Presidency.

10        Q.   All right.  My apologies.  And just very briefly, why is it

11     necessary to set up this commission?  What is happening around 2nd

12     November 1992, if you know?

13        A.   While I was still a member of the War Presidency, we received

14     reports from the public security station on the high incidence of

15     violation of law and order, robbery and aggravated robbery and looting,

16     so the War Presidency was trying to do something.  It formed this working

17     group with the idea that they would be actually going out into the field

18     and talking to people, but as far as I know it didn't come to much.

19        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 01461.  Now,

20     this is dated 12 January 1993, and if we look -- this is a statement in

21     the media, BH radio and TV.  And if we look at the very last paragraph,

22     it says:  "The Jablanica War Presidency is appealing to the leadership of

23     SDA and the HDZ to continue their efforts on finding solutions for a

24     harmonious and peaceful life of all citizens of Jablanica municipality."

25             Let's start there.  At this point in time -- and this is 12

Page 33115

 1     January 1993, and I underscore this for the Trial Chamber's attention.

 2     At this point in time, what are the relations between SDA and HDZ, if you

 3     know?

 4        A.   I was not a member of either, and at that time I was not a member

 5     of the War Presidency either.  I know of this communique as a regular

 6     citizen because I was following the news.

 7             There had been sparks between the SDA and the HDZ because of

 8     incidents at Christmas, the bombing of the church, the throwing of

 9     grenades outside the HDZ staff, or HVO staff, attacks, assaults made by

10     one refugee from Foca and a number of other incidents.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, you said that there was an attack or a bombing

12     on the HVO staff.  Now, are we talking about military or are we talking

13     the civilian premises?

14        A.   It was the office for the accommodation of the military members

15     of the HVO.  It was an office in an office building, and this grenade was

16     thrown outside the office of the HVO.

17        Q.   All right.  And do you know about what time, what period this

18     would have been?

19        A.   That happened almost the same day as the attack on the church.

20     Sometime before Christmas.  That is, before the 25th December a grenade

21     was thrown outside the Catholic church, and perhaps just a day later or a

22     day before a grenade was thrown at the HVO office.

23        Q.   All right.  And did the HVO office, incidentally, did it have a

24     flag?  Is it flying the colours of the Croatian people?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33116

 1        Q.   Now, is that the flag of the republic -- is that the flag of the

 2     Republic of Croatia, or is that the flag of the Croats of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, because there are differences.  Which of the two?

 4        A.   It was not the flag of the Republic of Croatia.  It was the flag

 5     of the Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Okay.  How long had that flag been flying in relation to the

 7     bombing incident?

 8        A.   At least for a year.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, going back to this -- this statement very

10     briefly because there may be some questions from the Bench, we see from

11     the very first paragraph "BH radio and TV."  Could you please tell us at

12     that point in time, and now we're speaking 12 January 1993, was there

13     radio and television reception in Jablanica municipality and, if so,

14     where was it coming from?

15        A.   BH TV could be received.  It was transmitted through these

16     repeaters.  What quality it was, I don't know, but it was not the only

17     one.  Other stations from Bosnia and Herzegovina could be received too.

18        Q.   All right.  And what about Jablanica?  Did Jablanica have a local

19     TV programme?

20        A.   Yes.  Jablanica had local cable television broadcasting its own

21     programme.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, I see that on line 11 it says other stations.  Are we

23     talking about other radio stations or other television stations?  Which

24     of the two?  Not in the document.  I just see it in the transcript here

25     that you're -- sir.  Mr. Zelenika, it's not in the document.  We can see

Page 33117

 1     what was being translated.

 2             How many television stations, channels, I should say, were you

 3     able to have at that point in time in Jablanica?

 4        A.   In Jablanica, in addition to the BH television programme, we were

 5     able to watch the Croatian radio television as well.  However, there was

 6     some technical interference later and we were no longer able to watch

 7     Croatian TV, but I cannot confirm at this moment whether we could watch

 8     Croatian TV in -- on this date in 1993, but I would say not.  But in 1992

 9     and in 1991, we were certainly able to watch Croatian TV.

10        Q.   And how many -- how many radio stations were you able to -- or

11     channels were you able to pick up on?  Radio.

12        A.   That depended on your receiver.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   What it was able to catch.

15        Q.   1-01464.  The next document 1D 01464.  Here we have a decision

16     and we see Mirsad Klepo is now being elected to the executive committee.

17     And we take it he is replacing Mr. Rogic; is that correct?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Now, this individual is a Muslim, is he not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So as I understand it he's not SDA, he's SDP, SDP.

22        A.   You're right.

23        Q.   At that point in time, now with the replacement of the only Croat

24     on the Executive Committee, at least what we saw earlier, how many Croats

25     are now on the Executive Committee of Jablanica municipality?  And we're

Page 33118

 1     speaking of 4 February 1993.

 2        A.   Not a single Croat remained on the Executive Board of Jablanica

 3     at the time we are discussing.

 4        Q.   All right.  1D 02753.  This is a decision on release from duty

 5     and election of presidents and members of the War Presidency of the

 6     Municipal Assembly, and we can see from Article I, it makes reference to

 7     Jablanica and Konjic.  And I want to direct your attention and everyone

 8     else's attention to Roman numeral XV, XVI and XVII.  Now, sir we see that

 9     Dr. Cibo is now becoming the president of Jablanica and Konjic

10     municipalities, and then it further says -- they have the listing of all

11     those people who have been elected, and then it says that on 7 -- on 17:

12             "For the purposes of providing ethnic representation in War

13     presidencies of municipal assemblies, a war Presidency shall propose

14     electing the necessary number of Presidency members from among the Serbs

15     and the Croats."

16             And this is signed by Alija Izetbegovic.

17             Now, to your understanding having worked in government, having

18     been in the -- the president of the Executive Council twice, once in the

19     1980s and again prior to -- in 1992, can you please tell us whether this

20     decision by President Izetbegovic is lawful and constitutional?

21        A.   This decision by Mr. Izetbegovic is unconstitutional, unlawful,

22     and actually constitutes both the legal and political precedent

23     concerning appointments to local bodies of authority and government.

24     This decision is contrary to all the laws that applied in our state.

25        Q.   All right.  We'll go on to the next document, 1D 02756.  And now

Page 33119

 1     here we have an order by Sefer Halilovic, and we see that under 1,

 2     Safet Cibo is being appointed to a particular position.  Do you see that,

 3     sir?

 4        A.   I see.

 5        Q.   Can you please explain to us -- this is now 20 March 1993.  Can

 6     you please explain to us what is happening in this particular order?  And

 7     again I want you to reflect back to your experience and knowledge at the

 8     time having been in and around Jablanica.

 9        A.   It's very difficult to explain this order.  The document we

10     viewed before we said was unconstitutional and unlawful.  We're now a

11     legally elected president an ethnic Muslim was replaced by a man from

12     Sarajevo.  But that's not all.  This now imposed president from Sarajevo

13     gets by virtue of this order -- rather, gives powers to the 4th Corps to

14     command the military units of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And he actually

15     did exercise that command.

16        Q.   I'm told that you spoke too fast.  I'm going to ask you to please

17     go back and -- and give us that explanation.  My time is limited, so it's

18     better to just speak clearly, slowly, so we can get it all.

19        A.   I'm sorry.  When I speak at length, I speak fast, but I'll try.

20             The document that we viewed a moment ago when we said that our

21     legally elected president of the municipality in Jablanica was unlawfully

22     replaced, Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic, an ethnic Muslim, and a man from Sarajevo

23     was imposed on us, Dr. Safet Cibo.  But that was not enough.  This new

24     unlawfully imposed president, by virtue of this order we are seeing now,

25     is vested with powers to issue orders and commands to the 4th Corps of

Page 33120

 1     the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D 02757.  This is

 3     20 March 1993, and we see that at a meeting of the central office and

 4     parts of the Executive Committee of the SDA:  "1.  Dr. Safet Cibo is

 5     hereby co-opted to the -- to Herzegovina Regional Board as a full

 6     member."

 7             And then if we go to the very last part of this document it says:

 8     "This decision was also issued in order to improve the work of the party

 9     in Herzegovina."

10             Can you please explain to us what is happening with this

11     particular decision that's being made?  Dr. Cibo being co-opted into the

12     Herzegovina Regional Board.

13        A.   This is a textbook example of a coincidence.  The document we've

14     just seen is also dated 27th March, and this one is dated 20th March.

15     Since Dr. Cibo, permanently residing in Sarajevo, could not be elected in

16     regular -- regular elections to the Regional Board of the SDA to

17     Herzegovina, he is co-opted to the Regional Board of the SDA in

18     Herzegovina, as they put it, to improve the work of the party in

19     Herzegovina on the position to which he was elected.

20        Q.   All right.  And we're talking about -- this is 20th of March;

21     correct?  The document.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now, along with this document there's a handwritten note,

24     and could you please tell us what this note is about?  What does it say?

25     Can you read it?

Page 33121

 1        A.   I can.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Go for it.

 3        A.   If I were not from Jablanica, I wouldn't be able to help you, but

 4     since I hail from Jablanica, it's fine.

 5             This is handwritten.  It says:  "Zijo," meaning Zijad Demirovic,

 6     at that time president of the Regional Board of the SDA Mostar, and it

 7     says:  "Zijo, this morning Almisa confirmed to me that the appointment of

 8     Dr. Cibo is all right.  Since Avdo will be going up there tomorrow, let

 9     him get information on that as well."  Then we see the Muslim greeting,

10     Mahusuz Selam, and this is the signature.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear whose.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Jablanica.  Cibo is therefore

13     coming to Jablanica, because as we saw from the previous document, he was

14     politically co-opted.  We don't see from this directly that he was coming

15     from Jablanica.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:

17        Q.   You need to slow down because again we're spending more of my

18     time trying to correct the translation here.

19             Tell us again what is happening in this note, and I'm going to

20     ask you to kindly slow down.

21        A.   I think I read this handwritten note rather slowly, but this

22     second part is when I said that the purpose is to express satisfaction

23     that Dr. Cibo was co-opted to the Regional Board of the SDA.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document, 1D 0 --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well that will be after the

Page 33122

 1     break.  It's now 10.30.  We are going to break for 20 minutes.  You still

 2     have one hour.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Start again, Mr. Karnavas.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  Before we start, I need to bring to

 7     the Court's attention an error on our part.  There were three documents

 8     that were given to us by the witness, 1D 03038, 1D 03040, and 1D 03041.

 9     39 -- 3039 and 3040, and under the guidelines we were supposed to seek

10     permission to add to the 65 ter before using them with the witness, and

11     this was an oversight.  I take full responsibility for that, and I

12     just -- it was brought to my attention.  So I just want to make sure that

13     we're clear on that point.

14        Q.   Going back to the last document, sir, where you read out from

15     that handwritten note, if you could please tell us who signed it.  Do you

16     recognise the signature on the document, on that little note?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And who signed it?

19        A.   Mr. Muhamed Murvat, a teacher from Jablanica and a member of the

20     municipal at the time.  Muhamed Murvat.

21        Q.   If we go on to the next document 1D 02777, and -- do you have it,

22     is, sir?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.  And this appears to be dated March 25, 1993.  If we

25     look at the bottom, it's president of the War Presidency, and this would

Page 33123

 1     be of Konjic.

 2             Do you recognise the gentleman's name?  Okay.  And who --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- is that?

 5        A.   Dr. Rusmir.

 6        Q.   Does he have a last name?

 7        A.   Hadzihusejnovic.

 8        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at this particular document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And it would appear that here the president of the Konjic

11     municipality is objecting in a manner in which Dr. Cibo replaced him.  Is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Precisely.

14        Q.   Now, do you know anything about how -- what, if anything, I

15     should say, this gentleman did upon receiving this notification that he

16     was being relieved?  Did he accept it passively, or did he do anything?

17        A.   Apart from writing this letter, he took other steps too.  He

18     physically refused to leave the office of the president of the War

19     Presidency in Konjic.  When he took that decision, he was physically

20     carried away.  He had to be physically removed.  He was arrested by the

21     police and the army in Konjic, and they physically removed him from

22     there.

23        Q.   All right.  All right.  Thank you.  If we go on to the next

24     document, 1D 02758.  This is dated 27 April 1993.

25             Now, you indicated earlier the significance between -- the

Page 33124

 1     significance of Dr. Cibo being appointed by Halilovic to give -- to a

 2     position within the 4th Corps.  If we look at this particular document,

 3     can you please explain to us what is it?

 4        A.   Sure.  This is an illustration of how Mr. Cibo, based on the

 5     schedule or assignment, the document that we looked at a while ago, the

 6     4th Corps.  So based on that he's issuing a specific order to the Muslim

 7     units to take two positions.  One is Ljubina.  It reads "Ljubina must

 8     fall tonight.  Ljubina is an elevation above Konjic known as a very

 9     important communications centre belonging to the former JNA previously.

10     There was a lot of equipment there.  And now this position was held by

11     the HVO.  Therefore, Ljubina must fall.

12             And then the next thing, Boksevica must fall as soon as possible.

13     Boksevica is a mountain in both Konjic and Jablanica municipality.  It

14     too was being handled at the same time.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  [Interpreters note] Could all microphones be

16     switched off while the witness is speaking, please.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:

18        Q.   And when we look at the one Ljubina must fall tonight, that's a

19     borrowed line, isn't it, from Tito?  Using Tito's line "Prozor must fall

20     tonight;" right?

21        A.   During the fourth enemy offensive, right.

22        Q.   And if we go to the next document 1D 01013.  This is dated 29

23     April 1993.  We have seen earlier the appointment of Dr. Cibo, and we

24     have seen in paragraph, I believe it was, Roman numeral XVII where it

25     indicated that other nationals should be included.  So in looking --

Page 33125

 1     keeping that in mind, let's look at this document, and I want to focus

 2     your attention to number 5 and number 6.  We have a Serb and a Croat.  Do

 3     you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   And then of course if we look at number 12, he see the chairman

 6     of HDZ and -- okay.  Now, to your knowledge were these individuals ever

 7     serving on -- as members of the War Presidency of the Jablanica

 8     municipality?  Did they ever serve?

 9        A.   I was in Jablanica at the time.  I know both these persons.  As a

10     matter of fact, I asked them the question at the time.  Neither of them

11     were ever even aware of the fact that anybody had put their names on this

12     list.  That's one thing.  And the other is these two persons are not from

13     Jablanica at all.  Cedomir Tipuric is from Konjic but by matter of

14     coincidence he was in Jablanica staying with his girlfriend at the time

15     the war broke out.  Milan Manigoda is an engineer hails from Jablanica

16     originally, but 15 years before the war, he had been living in Mostar and

17     it was by pure coincidence that he ended up in Jablanica at this time.

18     This is the equivalent of actually having a bus pass through Jablanica

19     and then you simply order the bus to pull over, you pick out a couple of

20     people who are aboard that bus and you appoint them members of the

21     Presidency.  The long and the short of it, they were not involved in the

22     work of the Presidency.

23        Q.   But if we look at this paper, on its face it would give the

24     appearance at least that now we have a multi-ethnic War Presidency in

25     Jablanica.

Page 33126

 1        A.   As long as I have to comment on this, this is the impression that

 2     someone might get who is just reading this without actually knowing what

 3     was going on at the time.

 4        Q.   All right.  And if we look at the next document 1D 01308.  Here

 5     we have a decision dated 31 July 1993, and of course it's signed by none

 6     other than Alija Izetbegovic, and it would appear as we look under Roman

 7     numeral II, we see again under number 5, Milan Manigoda, and number 6,

 8     Mr. Tipuric.  And of course number 12, we see the president of the

 9     Deputies' Club of HDZ.

10             Now, this is several months after the previous document.  Do you

11     know whether the situation changed on 31 July 1993, or is this decision

12     another charade being perpetrated by Alija Izetbegovic and others?

13        A.   Mr. Izetbegovic, pursuant to this proposal that had arrived from

14     Mr. Cibo in Jablanica, merely confirmed what it says about Mr. Manigoda,

15     Mr. Tipuric, the HDZ president, although a while ago as I was commenting

16     on that document, I didn't say that, but I'm about to say it now.  There

17     were no representatives of the HDZ in this Presidency simply because he

18     was physically not present when the meetings of the Presidency were held,

19     nor was he able to attend.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, we're going to look at the next documents more

21     or less together, and that's 1D 01070, and 1D 01063.  They're both dated

22     14th June 1993, both signed by Dr. Cibo.

23             If we look at the first one 1D 01070, under paragraph Roman

24     numeral I, paragraph -- or item number 2 it says:  "It is necessary to

25     gather the leaders and members of the HDZ in Jablanica in order to review

Page 33127

 1     and resolve the problems of the Croatian citizens so that they may feel

 2     like the other local peoples."

 3             And of course if you look at the decision under Roman numeral I,

 4     it says in order to increase overall mobility and fight for the Republic

 5     of Bosnia and Herzegovina more completely and effectively we are hereby

 6     establishing the united front in the struggle for the sovereign and

 7     indivisible Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as recognised by the

 8     world.

 9             Now, sir, where it says on the first document, 1D 01070, "to

10     gather the leaders," were you -- did you ever participate in any meetings

11     concerning these two documents?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Could you please describe to us how is it that you --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   Would you please describe to us how is it you were at this

17     meeting or meetings and what, if anything, occurred?

18        A.   I was at a meeting organised by Mr. Cibo on the 12th of June.  He

19     called a meeting.  He had previously described the meeting as a meeting

20     between the Muslim intellectuals and successful businessmen including

21     representatives of the local Serbs and Croats.  This included also

22     UNPROFOR representatives, ICRC people, and UNHCR.

23             From the ranks of the Muslims there were some people who came who

24     he believed to be intellectuals, and there were a couple of businessmen

25     who were owners of private enterprises in the area.  The Serbs were

Page 33128

 1     represented by Mr. Gojko Jelacic, a Serbs from Jablanica.  On behalf of

 2     the Croats there were the parish priest Alojlije Bosnjak, Mr. Jure Juric,

 3     the local butcher from Jablanica, a Croat, and I was there too.

 4             Mr. Cibo made a lengthy introduction that took nearly 45 minutes

 5     to complete.  He tried to explain something, and it was down to this:  It

 6     is normal for a wall to be white.  If someone were to draw a single black

 7     dot on that wall, we'd all start staring at it wondering what is this

 8     black dot?  So he goes, "This black spot in this white world, it's the

 9     HVO, and it needs to be wiped out."  And then after that he asked for all

10     those present, by a show of hands, to lend their support to this proposal

11     that he made to organise a united front to defend Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12     He was adamant that a vote should be taken, but I refused to be involved,

13     and I refused to watch what all the others were doing.  So I ended up

14     saying, "Mr. Chairman, let me take this opportunity to tell you about the

15     many problems faced by the Croats following the clashes between the BH

16     army and the HVO, and I mean the Croats who just happen to be in this

17     area under the control of the BH army."  And then I said, they're

18     being -- they're being ousted from their flats.  They are being robbed

19     and looted."  And the first thing I asked is, "When will you finally

20     release those of our civilians who are in the Museum?"  And they were

21     about 30 of those by this time.

22             Following my contribution he said as follows:  "I now close the

23     meeting, and I call upon all Croats tomorrow at 10.00," I'm talking about

24     the 13th of June, "to come to this conference room."

25             The next day -- did I say -- I said the 13th of June, yes.  The

Page 33129

 1     13th of June at 10.00.  The next day at 10.00 we were all there.  I think

 2     about 74 of us assembled as a matter of fact.  And then we provided him

 3     with a detailed blow by blow account of everything.  I myself spoke for

 4     about seven to ten minutes.  He took an hour and a half to explain

 5     whatever he had to explain in relation to what I had said.

 6             When he came to the captured Croats, he said there were

 7     proceedings under way to check whether anyone had committed any crimes.

 8     As long as that was not the case, everyone would be issued with a

 9     certificate to the effect that they were totally innocent, and they would

10     be free to move about, and they would get the certificate to avoid

11     someone arresting them in the street.  Perhaps I was a bit gullible here

12     myself because that never materialised.  That never materialised.

13             Talking about that museum in which they were being kept, several

14     hundred Croats later arrived at that museum who were also captured.  This

15     museum was a camp.  It remained like that until the end of 1993, and

16     there were over 600 Croat prisoners that at various points in time were

17     held there.  The greatest number of civilians.

18             As for these two documents, this conclusion and the next one,

19     when I read these I had the feeling that it was my speech, my

20     contributions at these two meetings that had been the inspiration behind

21     these two documents.  That's one thing.  But other thing is that had I

22     not attended that meeting, had I not say a thing, these conclusions --

23     neither one of these conclusions would ever have materialised.  So there

24     you have it.  That's my comment.

25        Q.   All right.  Couple of points.  One, this is June 14 we have these

Page 33130

 1     conclusions.  You indicated the meeting took place on the 12th and the

 2     13th.  Yesterday you told us -- yesterday you told us that you were

 3     essentially doing slave labour as a result of your condition and the work

 4     that they were actually forcing you to do.

 5             Were you doing this sort of labour during this period when

 6     Dr. Cibo summoned you to this meeting?

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, before the witness answers

 8     I'm going to object to the characterisation of slave labour.  I don't

 9     think that was the way it was used -- described yesterday.  I think the

10     witness said being mobilised into a civilian work detail to him was

11     forced labour.  I don't remember anything being said about slave labour.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll leave the record to whatever the gentleman --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, I don't know

14     about slave labour.  I know he had to unload trucks.  Is unloading trucks

15     slave labour?  I don't know.  Would you please reformulate the question.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  That was the gentleman's characterisation, but

17     I'll reformulate.

18        Q.   You told us that you had a medical condition; correct?  You need

19     to answer the question, sir.

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   You told us that you had documentation to that effect.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You told us that -- that this was well known and would have been

24     documented already; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33131

 1        Q.   And those documents would have been in the possession of the

 2     Territorial Defence office.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You also told us that you -- they refused to provide to allow --

 5     to conduct a medical examination.

 6        A.   Correct.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I think liberty is -- with

 8     all due respect to Mr. Karnavas, I think he's taking liberties with the

 9     record.  I don't think that's the way it was characterised it.  I don't

10     know why we're going back to these points.  I do agree this testimony --

11     general testimony was given yesterday and the only reason I see it

12     appears that Mr. Karnavas is going back to put his particular spin on the

13     evidence.  I don't remember anything about anyone refusing to conducting

14     a medical examination or whether who had the papers or didn't.  So I

15     don't have any -- if he wants to recover the same ground by not -- excuse

16     me -- by non-leading questions and repeat the same answers as yesterday

17     that's one thing, but I think we're just spinning the evidence.

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I think the record should reflect

19     first and foremost this objection was prompted not by his memory but by

20     his colleague, and the record, the record is rather very clear.

21     Mr. Scott seems to just simply wish to object for the sake of objecting.

22        Q.   Sir, did you ask for a medical examination and, if so, was one

23     provided to you in order to demonstrate that you indeed had a physical

24     disability and could not perform the labour which you were being asked to

25     perform?

Page 33132

 1        A.   I was sent for treatment, but when I was received by a doctor,

 2     there was no examination.  He refused to examine me, and he refused to

 3     even look at the -- the very comprehensive documentation that I had

 4     brought along.

 5        Q.   At this point in time when you were summoned by Dr. Cibo, were

 6     you working?  Were you doing that sort of work that you were forced to

 7     do?

 8        A.   For two days.  The 12th and the 13th of June when I was off to

 9     that meeting at Dr. Cibo's, I did not perform forced labour.  But this

10     was far worse than slave labour.

11        Q.   Okay.  But my point is prior to these -- prior to these meetings

12     were you working in that fashion?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is it possible that Dr. Cibo didn't know what you were doing?

15        A.   I don't believe that that is possible.

16        Q.   Now, you mentioned that at one point you raised the issue of

17     Croats being in the museum and as to when they would be released.  Are we

18     speaking about the same museum that you were ultimately taken to and

19     kept?

20        A.   Yes.  That's the one.

21        Q.   And how far would that museum have been from Dr. Cibo's office?

22        A.   Between 600 and 700 metres.

23        Q.   All right.  And did you ever try to -- to get out of the museum?

24     Did you ever make any applications that would bring you to someone's

25     attention, say, within the civilian government?

Page 33133

 1        A.   Sir, I never had an opportunity.  Not just me, none of those

 2     captured had any opportunity to get in touch and talk to anyone.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'm not speaking whether you spoke to them directly,

 4     but did there ever come a time because of your mother's illness that you

 5     made an attempt for someone to intervene on your behalf?

 6        A.   I tried through my relatives for them to address whoever was

 7     responsible for my provisional release, a short-term one from the camp,

 8     but they then informed me that the reply from the person responsible was

 9     negative, that I would not be allowed to go to hospital to visit my

10     mother.  So I ended up not going.

11        Q.   And who is the person that was responsible for that?

12        A.   At the time it was Mr.  Dzelmo Zenaid.  He was some sort of an

13     inspector in the local public security station.  He was in charge of

14     setting the pace in terms of living conditions inside the museum, in

15     terms of when prisoners could receive visits, in terms of deciding

16     whether a prisoner would be allowed to leave the museum in order to go

17     see a doctor.  He was the person who set the pace in terms of what went

18     on.

19        Q.   Well, did you ever try to contact any of your former colleagues

20     from the War Presidency through an intermediary to see if they could

21     intervene on your behalf?

22        A.   No.  I never tried.  Although when I lift the camp, I asked my

23     father if anyone had ever asked about me, because my father would see all

24     these people on a daily basis.  Jablanica was a small town, and we all

25     knew each other.  But then my father said that no one ever asked any

Page 33134

 1     questions about me.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, is it possible that Dr. Cibo didn't know that

 3     you were in the basement of the museum?

 4        A.   Dr. Cibo came to the museum many times.  He knew very well who

 5     was in there.  True, I couldn't see him myself because I was in the

 6     basement, and he would go up to the first floor normally.  And I believe

 7     at least 500 other prisoners saw him on a number of different occasions.

 8        Q.   All right.  Very quickly, if we go to the next document,

 9     1D 00774.  And just very quickly, this is August 29, 1993.  We see this

10     decision by Dr. Cibo, and again we see the two names that we mentioned

11     earlier under number 9 and number 10.  We don't see anybody as a

12     representative of HDZ.  And I take it as of August 29, 1993, these two

13     individuals, Tipuric and Milan Manigodic, they were not members?

14        A.   No, they weren't.  They'd fled Jablanica by this time.  They paid

15     someone to help them get away.

16        Q.   All right.  We go on to the next document, 1D 01027.  This is

17     dated 29 August 1993.  This is on the appointment of the members and

18     secretaries of the Jablanica municipal Executive Committee, and we look

19     at those names.  Do you see among those names any Croats?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And I take it they're all Muslim.  There are no Serbs.

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   If we go to the next document 1D 01500.  And this is to set up a

24     municipal commission for gathering facts and information about war

25     crimes.  2 September 1993.  We look at under Roman numeral II.  We see

Page 33135

 1     five -- five names.  Are any members of this municipal commission Croat?

 2        A.   No, none.  No Croat, no Serb.

 3        Q.   All Muslim.

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   We look at the next decision, 1D 01031.  This is 17 September

 6     1993.  This is to replace the director of the Jablanica adult education

 7     centre, and we see that under Roman numeral I, Jozefina Dzalto is being

 8     replaced by Mirzo Pelic.  Is Jozefina Dzalto a Croat or a Muslim?

 9        A.   Jozefina Dzalto is an ethnic Croat.

10        Q.   And what Mirzo Pelic, her replacement?  She's being replaced by

11     him.  What is he?

12        A.   Mirzo Pelic is a Muslim.

13        Q.   We go to the next document 1D 01042.  This is January 10, 1994,

14     and this is a decision appointing an election, an appointment committee,

15     and this is for the Jablanica municipality.  We see seven names there.

16     Of the seven names, could you please tell us how many Muslim and how many

17     Croats are there?

18        A.   All are Muslim here.  There are no Croats, no Serbs.

19        Q.   1D 01043.  This is a decision on appointing members of the

20     secretaries of the executive committee of Jablanica.  We're in 1994.

21     This is dated 10 January 1994.  And can you confirm to us the ethnic

22     make-up of the Executive Committee of Jablanica municipality at this

23     point in time?  How many Croat, how many Muslim?

24        A.   This is a mono-ethnic group.  Everybody is Muslim.

25        Q.   All right.  And then finally 1D 00791.  Again 10 January 1994.

Page 33136

 1     This is on the formation of the Presidency of the Jablanica Municipal

 2     Assembly.  And we see the very first name Ivkovic.  We've seen him

 3     before; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  Mr. Ivkovic returns again to the position of president of

 5     the municipality from which he was recalled in March 1993.

 6        Q.   And then under number 7 we also see Mirsad Klepo.  He had been in

 7     that position at one point in time having, I believe, Rogic -- he had

 8     replaced Rogic; correct?

 9        A.   Correct, correct.

10        Q.   And of the nine names here, can you please tell us what the

11     ethnic are -- is?

12        A.   Here again we see a mono-ethnic group.  Everybody is Muslim.

13        Q.   And where is Dr. Cibo at this point in time?

14        A.   Dr. Cibo had performed the work for which he had come and

15     returned to Sarajevo.

16        Q.   If we go on to 1D 01009, and this chapter deals with mobilisation

17     of resources.  Just some vignettes for the Trial Chamber.

18             This is 20 April 1993.  This is under Cibo.  And we see that all

19     the chopped wood in the house of Mato Bilos is to be requisitioned.  Now

20     is Mato Bilos, is he a Muslim or is he a Croat?

21        A.   Mato Bilos is a Croat.

22        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 1D 01010.  Here we're talking

23     about flour and other foodstuffs to be expropriated from the Croatian

24     Defence counsel shop and warehouse in Jablanica for the needs of the

25     defence of the Jablanica municipality.  Now, what do you know about this

Page 33137

 1     particular warehouse and who owned it?

 2        A.   This warehouse was set up by the HVO of Jablanica municipality.

 3     There was a grocery there, and it was seized, confiscated for the needs

 4     of the BH army.

 5        Q.   All right.  Do you know whether this was also happening to

 6     Muslims?  Was Cibo targeting Muslims and Serbs as well, assuming there

 7     were any Serbs at the time there.  But my -- my particular interest is in

 8     Muslims.  Were they being -- were their foodstuffs being taken away,

 9     their chopped wood?

10        A.   Absolutely not.  These measures were taken only against Croats

11     and Serbs in Jablanica.

12        Q.   If we look at 1D 01011.  This is 22 April 1993.  And here it

13     says:  "Rationed goods requisitioned pursuant to the order of this War

14     Presidency."  And it gives a number of 16 April 1993.  It may be used

15     exclusively for the requirement of members of the Republic of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina army, citizens and members of platoons.

17             Can you please tell us whether the use of these requisitioned

18     goods were also being given to the HVO military, or was this strictly for

19     Muslims?

20        A.   No.  No, absolutely not, because at that time there was no HVO in

21     Jablanica.

22        Q.   All right.  Next document, 1D 01012.  It says here by this order

23     "Because of the newly arisen war situation immediately start seizing all

24     materials and goods necessary for the army of the republic of BH from

25     state-owned and private companies..."

Page 33138

 1             Now, my question is this particular order, to your understanding,

 2     was it applied to everyone across the board, or were some members of the

 3     community excluded, or some companies?

 4        A.   I cannot talk about companies, whether anything was seized from

 5     them, but as for physical persons, this granted the legal right to

 6     members of the army and the police, and they exercised this right, to go

 7     from garage to garage, office building to office building, business to

 8     business breaking in the door and taking whatever they wanted to take.

 9     If anybody wanted to -- a receipt, they gave it.  I had to unlock my door

10     as well.  I gave them my boat and some timber.  They asked me if I wanted

11     a receipt.  I said no need.

12        Q.   All right.  What were they planning on doing with the boat in the

13     middle of this chaos in war?  Were boats being used for military

14     purposes?  I understand that there is the Neretva.  It has pretty good

15     fishing, but ...

16        A.   Something like that.

17        Q.   All right.  1D 01483.  This is 18 May 1993, and here we can see

18     that what is being requisitioned is the stock of medicine from the

19     pharmacy of the Jablanica branch of the Caritas Croatian Catholic charity

20     organisation, and now it's being handed to the Jablanica town pharmacy

21     for better use.

22             Do you know what was the problem with the Caritas pharmacy that

23     Dr. Cibo, now a medical doctor, was confiscating the medicine supposedly

24     to put it to better use?

25        A.   I suppose this was the last order.  I believe that after this

Page 33139

 1     there was nothing more to take away from Croats.  In Jablanica in 1991, a

 2     Croat Christian charity was organised which had some medication and

 3     medical supplies that a doctor and a nurse provided, handed out to all

 4     the citizens without regard to ethnicity, and the other part was

 5     humanitarian aid, mainly food.  All that was stored in one shop, and in

 6     the parish office.

 7             The shop I just mentioned, now these medical supplies, the

 8     pharmacy owned by HKDD, is -- are now also seized, and this charity is

 9     closed down, this humanitarian organisation that served all citizens.

10        Q.   All right.  I just want to make sure I understand correctly.  The

11     Caritas pharmacy, was it selling the medicine for profit?  Was it selling

12     it at base price, or giving it away for free to all those who actually

13     needed it?

14        A.   The medicines were given free of charge to those who needed them

15     under the supervision of one doctor and one woman pharmacist.

16        Q.   And was it strictly for -- for Croats, or could other citizens in

17     Jablanica go there, that is, non-Croats?

18        A.   It was for all the inhabitants of Jablanica.  At that time the

19     Muslims were in the majority, so there's reason to believe that they

20     benefitted from a large part of this aid.

21        Q.   All right.  Now we're going to go to the next chapter which deals

22     with camps.  The first document goes back to an earlier discussion.

23     That's 1D 01492.  This is sort of a housekeeping matter.  It's dated 15

24     June 1993.  This is an order and it says:  "The Jablanica war hospital is

25     hereby ordered to review all sick leaves of military conscripts through a

Page 33140

 1     military medical board."

 2             And my question to you, sir, is when I asked you earlier if you

 3     had been given the opportunity to be examined, physically examined, when

 4     you were asked to report for work obligation, would it have been at this

 5     particular hospital, the Jablanica war hospital, or was it some place

 6     else?

 7        A.   That is the place.  I went to the Jablanica hospital and was

 8     examined by the panel mentioned in this document.

 9        Q.   All right.  And very briefly, we'll just go through some

10     documents here.  1D 01847.  This is 16 May 1993.  This is a list of

11     Croats imprisoned in a museum in Jablanica, and do you see those names,

12     sir, and do you recognise any of them?

13        A.   I can see that.

14        Q.   All right.  The next document is 1D 01859.  This is dated 16 May

15     1993.  List of civilians of the Croatian ethnicity detained and kept in a

16     blockade in Jablanica.

17             And if you could look at -- if you could assist us here, and I'm

18     going to focus your attention to numbers 207 and 208 on the list, which

19     is the last page.  Actually, it would be 207, 208, and 210.  207 it says

20     Mirko Zelenika.  That's you, is it not?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And 208 Marko Zelenika, that's your brother?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   And then Ivan and Ilka Zelenika, that's your father and mother?

25        A.   Right.

Page 33141

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  We go on to the next document, 1D 01860.

 2     Here is another list, and if you could look at number 90.  We see

 3     Marko Zelenika.  That's your mother, is it not, number 90?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And number 153, that would be -- that's you; correct?

 6     Mirko Zelenika?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And we go on to the next document which is 1D 0172.  Here we

 9     don't see your name.  This is of the 18th July 1993.  Do you know -- do

10     you know any of these individuals that are listed, and can you confirm

11     whether these are -- this is a list of Croatian civilians and military

12     conscripts from the Grabovica -- Donja Grabovica and the others that were

13     captured and detained in Jablanica?  Can you confirm that for us?  Do you

14     know?  There are in total, I think --

15        A.   I can confirm that from this list I know several persons, and

16     they are precisely from the locality you mentioned.  That locality

17     belongs to Mostar municipality.  They had been captured there as

18     civilians and brought to the museum camp in Jablanica.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  A correction to the record, please.  The

20     document is not 1D 0172 as indicated but 1D 01712.  I see you also had

21     it.  Thank you.  Thank you, Ms. Tomanovic.

22             MR. KARNAVAS:

23        Q.   Okay.  If we go on to the next document.  1D 00772.  And perhaps

24     we could park here for a little bit, and we can describe what is

25     happening.

Page 33142

 1             This is dated 29 July 1993.  This is a decision by Dr. Cibo, and

 2     I'll just read it out.  I would ask you to please follow along or read it

 3     in the original.  It says:  "Except for members of the Croatian Defence

 4     Council, all persons from the Doljani local commune accommodated at

 5     present in Bitka Na Neretvi, the Battle of The Neretva museum in

 6     Jablanica may, provided they reach a mutual agreement, take temporary

 7     shelter in the homes of their relatives, friends or acquaintances in the

 8     free territory of Jablanica municipality."

 9             Can you please comment on this particular decision.

10        A.   This is simply impossible.  This is nonsense.  It's nonsense that

11     the War Presidency could have made a decision like this.  Only a day

12     before, on the 28th of June, 1993, members of the BH army attacked the

13     area of Doljani, and in that action on that day, they killed 39 Croats,

14     among them a large number of civilians.  Eighteen of them were seriously

15     wounded, and all of them, 214 in total including 67 children under 15,

16     and there were also several men, over 80 elderly women, all of them 214

17     of them were taken to the museum camp, and these 214 people stayed there

18     for eight months.  They were deliberately starved resulting in four

19     deaths.  At least two women were raped and all the others were victims of

20     cruel and inhuman treatment by the camp personnel during eight months.

21             This camp was registered by the ICRC, and it was visited by the

22     ICRC several times.

23             In all aspects it was like a Nazi camp, and the treatment was the

24     same as in Nazi camps in World War II.  That's how it was.  And I was

25     indignant to read that somebody was able, just a day after these people

Page 33143

 1     were captured and taken away from their homes to write a decision like

 2     this.

 3        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction the month was July,

 5     not June.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, where were you at the time?

 8        A.   At the time I was still in the apartment of my parents, and I was

 9     still going to forced labour assignments, and I saw those people when

10     they were brought in.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karnavas.  Could you enlighten

12     the Chamber about the relevance of this and why it is not tu quoque,

13     because I must confess that I feel a bit lost.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.  Well, the issue of the individuals

15     being kept in the museum has come up.  On 8 November 2006, we had the

16     testimony of Safet Idrizovic.  You may recall, you may not.  It's been a

17     long time.

18             He was questioned.  He was shown a list.  In fact, that's the

19     next document, 6D 00035, and he at first claimed that he knew nothing

20     about this.  In fact, he states when he was asked quite pointedly, he

21     says, I believe, "This wasn't part of the duties," meaning the military

22     police, and the people who were in Doljani and who were brought from

23     Doljani to the museum weren't detainees.  They hadn't been in prison."

24             Now, at some point you'll be sitting around with your colleagues

25     to determine what are the facts, and of course this is testimony elicited

Page 33144

 1     by the Prosecution.

 2             Here we have confirmation that much of what Mr. Idrizovic is

 3     saying, and that would be my next two questions, is it goes to his

 4     credibility.  And if the gentleman is confabulating, and I dare say I'll

 5     put it more bluntly, lying about this, then how can you possibly take the

 6     rest of his testimony without being somewhat circumspect.  So that is the

 7     purpose.  It goes to in part to impeach a witness from the Prosecution

 8     and this is a form of impeachment.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That's a convincing and helpful

10     answer.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Now, do you recall an incident that happened in your house

13     when -- when these folks came and were put in the museum, do you recall

14     an incident in your house with a little kid making certain remarks?  And

15     could you please describe to the Trial Chamber what happened?

16        A.   Already earlier before this date pursuant to a decision of the

17     War Presidency, I had to receive and accommodate a Muslim family from

18     Rogatica counting nine members.  When the army attack occurred and when

19     the civilians were brought, I saw those people passing by on trucks, and

20     later when I came into the apartment, a boy who could have been 10 or 11,

21     and he resided at that time in my apartment, who had been to the museum

22     and come back was talking to his mother, and he said, "Mum, I had been

23     down there to target Ustashas," and the woman, I suppose, understood what

24     it was all about and gestured to him to shut up.  In Jablanica those

25     women, children, and the elderly, those were the Ustashas that needed to

Page 33145

 1     be taken from Doljani to Jablanica.

 2        Q.   All right.  I thank you.  Now, if I can look -- if I can have you

 3     look at 6D 00035.  And this is a list compiled.  It's a list of persons

 4     situated in the SRZ museum Jablanica, who were not members of the HVO.

 5             Let me ask you first, do you know what SRZ means?

 6        A.   You have to help me out here.

 7        Q.   Well, if you don't know, that's fine.  Do you know the 6th Corps

 8     Military Police Battalion?  Had you heard of them?

 9        A.   I have.

10        Q.   If you look at the list of the names, do you know any of the

11     names?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are they from Jablanica, or are they from outside Jablanica?

14        A.   On this list, as far as I can see, and I haven't seen this

15     before, there are names and surnames of people brought from Doljani.  I

16     also see the name of my aunt from Jablanica.  And indeed a number of

17     people from Jablanica were driven out of their homes and taken to the

18     museum, between 50 and 70 persons.  And those people were never ever

19     registered officially by anyone, because when the ICRC came, those people

20     would be removed and hidden from the ICRC.  So officially it turns out

21     they had never been to the camp, because all the other inmates have a

22     certificate from the -- certificate from the ICRC that they had been

23     detained in that camp, and I am one of them.

24        Q.   Okay.  First of all, what is your -- what is your aunt's name?

25        A.   Anica Rotim.

Page 33146

 1        Q.   And which one would be that?

 2        A.   57.

 3        Q.   And how do you know that the names are from Doljani?  You say --

 4     how did you -- how are you able to tell?

 5        A.   If I had two minutes to look at this list, I think I know over 80

 6     per cent of these people.  Anyone older than 30.  Perhaps, I don't know,

 7     younger people.  Because I was born in that locality.  I have a weekend

 8     cottage there.  I went there often before the war.  I still go there and

 9     I know 80 per cent of those people who are still alive.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just -- another rectification.  I have

11     heard and it has been recorded that you said, Witness, that your aunt was

12     number 57.  I wonder whether it is correct.  Should you not go down two

13     more?  If you look at the list.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  You need to put your glasses on, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  It's actually 59.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Thank you.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:

18        Q.   Now, just one -- one point.  Did you know an individual by the

19     name of Safet Idrizovic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And how do you know him?

22        A.   I know him because I lived for 35 years in Jablanica and so did

23     he.

24        Q.   All right.

25        A.   I worked there.  Maybe we worked together --

Page 33147

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   -- in certain periods.

 3        Q.   During this particular period that we're speaking of, did you

 4     know what, if anything, Mr. Idrizovic was doing at the time?

 5        A.   At this time he was chief of the staff of the armed forces of

 6     Jablanica.

 7        Q.   Do you think it's possible given his position that he would not

 8     have known what was happening or who was being kept at the museum?  Is

 9     that plausible?

10             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I object to speculation

11     unless the witness has some personal -- some foundation of personal

12     knowledge.  Is it possible.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  I withdraw the question.

14        Q.   Did you ever see Mr. Idrizovic at or around the museum when you

15     were being kept there, or even prior to that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And incidentally, his offices, do you know how far they would

18     have been at the time, if now know?

19        A.   From the museum you mean?

20        Q.   From the museum, right.

21        A.   About 500 metres.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now I want to --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have certainly taken more

24     than four hours now, Mr. Karnavas.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, I -- I have about five minutes left, Your

Page 33148

 1     Honour, that's about it, if I could.

 2        Q.   If I go on to the next document 1D 02717, very quickly, sir.

 3     This is from Halilovic.  It's dated 23 September 1993, and it begins by

 4     saying:  "At the time of saving Mostar from the Ustasha rampage our

 5     forces -- our forces' combat operation in the general Vrdi village area

 6     facing Mostar are the most important on the BH front."

 7             Have you had a chance to look at this particular judgement, and

 8     could you please tell us where the Vrdi front is?

 9        A.   Yes, I've seen this document before.  Vrdi is an elevation midway

10     between Jablanica and Mostar, roughly speaking, but belonging to Mostar

11     municipality.  About 20 kilometres away from Mostar.

12        Q.   All right.  And if you could look at number 4, and if you go --

13     if you are able to help us out.  Put on your glasses, sir, and then look

14     at number 4.

15        A.   I've seen it.

16        Q.   Okay.  And -- and are you able to comment on that?

17        A.   My comment is the following:  At the time I was a prisoner with

18     Zuka in Doljani-Jablanica, and this is what is mentioned in paragraph 4

19     of this document.  In a way, I was helping with the implementation of

20     this order in the following way:  I and other prisoners had to load the

21     cannons and other kinds of weapons for this planned attack on the Vrdi

22     elevation.  That's all I can say.

23        Q.   All right.  The next document is 1D 03039, and I just need

24     confirmation.  This is a document that you provided to us when you

25     arrived at The Hague; is that correct?

Page 33149

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   The next document is 1D 02243.  This is a brief chronology, and

 3     as I understand it, you are familiar with this document, and could you

 4     please tell us to what extent you are or why are you familiar with this

 5     document?

 6        A.   I am familiar with this document, the reason being I was myself

 7     involved in terms of helping a team of Tribunal investigators between

 8     1995 and 1998.  At their request I sought out potential witnesses.  I

 9     tracked them down for them, people they could talk to.  Between 1995 and

10     late 1998, the teams visited Mostar over 20 times.  I remember some

11     names.  Mr. Tom Kempenaars, representative of The Hague Tribunal based in

12     Zagreb.  He's the one who announced this particular visit in May 1995,

13     and then in September 1995, there was Mr. Regis Abribat who headed the

14     investigation team.  Sometime late in 1997 they completed their

15     investigation.  They thanked us, and they said that there was now

16     sufficient circumstantial evidence, information, and indications for

17     indictments to be raised against at least 13 persons.

18             They were followed by a new team including some of the

19     investigators involved in the previous team.  I remember the names, and

20     the team was headed by Mr. Nikolai Mihajlov.  They worked into 1998 and I

21     worked for about six months.  However, as far as that investigation was

22     concerned, there was never an indictment that was raised here before this

23     Tribunal or before any of the national courts.

24             I believe that sufficiently explains the document.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... what did you -- did you

Page 33150

 1     write any of this report and, if so, what part?  We don't need any of the

 2     details.

 3        A.   Yes.  I, too, contributed to this report, especially as concerned

 4     information about Jablanica and Konjic, since that was an area that I was

 5     familiar with.

 6        Q.   And finally the very last document which is 1D 03040.  Again this

 7     is a document that you provided to us, and if you could just confirm that

 8     and then tell us what the document is.  Where did you get it from?

 9        A.   Yes.  I confirm that I gave you this document.  I got it from the

10     International Red Cross to confirm that I was registered by them in the

11     museum camp in Jablanica after I returned from my previous two locations

12     Donja Jablanica and Mostar.  International Red Cross registered me after

13     I had already spent three months at the museum camp.

14        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Zelenika.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  This concludes my direct examination.  Thank you

16     again.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.  The

18     best is to break now for 20 minutes.  After this break we shall resume

19     with the cross-examinations.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

23     Ms. Nozica, there's a brief oral decision on follow-up of what I said

24     about the number of documents.  The oral decision has to do with the list

25     of exhibits which will be presented when Neven Tomic will appear as a

Page 33151

 1     witness.

 2             On the 13th October 2008, Prlic's Defence disclosed the of lists

 3     of exhibits which it intends to show to Neven Tomic as a witness

 4     according to the last schedule by Prlic Defence.  Neven Tomic is to

 5     appear as from 27 October 2008 and Prlic's Defence wishes to have six

 6     hours for its direct examination.  Chamber notes the list furnished by

 7     Defence has more than 370 documents exactly 373.  The Chamber reminds the

 8     parties that they have managed to present maximum of 80 exhibits roughly

 9     during examination of six hours.  Therefore, the Chamber orders Prlic

10     Defence to sort out those documents and to present a list which will

11     contain a reasonable number of documents to be examined during the

12     hearing through Neven Tomic as a witness so that the Prosecution may

13     prepare its cross-examination in an adequate manner.

14             So that's what I told you, Mr. Karnavas, yesterday, and this

15     follows what we have said yesterday.

16             Now, for the cross-examination I understood that Ms. Nozica will

17     have one hour roughly, and it seems to me that Mr. Vasic or Mr. Praljak

18     will need a few minutes also.  That's what I understood.

19             Mr. Vasic.

20             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we shall have no

21     questions for this witness.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we will have a

24     number of questions for this witness.  I talked to my learned friend

25     Ms. Nozica, and I -- I do know that the other Defence teams will not have

Page 33152

 1     any questions, so Ms. Nozica and I will divide our time equally for the

 2     cross-examination of this witness.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, one hour.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon.  I

 5     have distributed my documents, and before I start my cross I would like

 6     to inform the Chamber that my examination will be a cross-examination

 7     about subjects raised in chief.  We want to make sure we don't waste any

 8     time on objections.  There are some questions, but I'm entirely in the

 9     hands of the Court.  If the Court believes at the close of my

10     cross-examination that some of the topics were outside the framework, I'm

11     perfectly prepared for the possibility that the Chamber will take away

12     some of the time that was allocated to the Stojic Defence.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note could all the other

14     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Zelenika.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   My name is Senka Nozica, and I defend Mr. Bruno Stojic.  As

19     you've just heard, I will be asking you some questions.  We'll be using

20     some documents.  The documents have been distributed.  This is a binder

21     of documents that you haven't seen before, but we shall be discussing

22     subjects that you are familiar with.  Nonetheless, before we move on,

23     yesterday during your examination-in-chief by my learned friend

24     Mr. Karnavas you were asked about a meeting that you attended with

25     Mr. Izetbegovic.  That was followed by a succession of objections.  You

Page 33153

 1     did not provide an answer, but the transcript recorded the question that

 2     you were asked.

 3             Can you please now explain what sort of a meeting that was?  How

 4     did Mr. Izetbegovic happen to be there, and what exactly happened at the

 5     meeting?

 6        A.   I was invited to come to the Jablanica hydroelectric plant, a

 7     plant that produces electricity.  They said that Mr. Izetbegovic would be

 8     at the meeting too.  I came to the meeting, and I realised that all --

 9     all the leaders from the political life and from the local economy in the

10     Jablanica area were there.  I looked around.  I realised that I was the

11     only Croat there, but that didn't seem to matter.

12             Following Mr. Izetbegovic's arrival, the hosts informed him

13     briefly about the political, security related, and economic questions of

14     any note in the Jablanica area.  After that, Mr. Izetbegovic asked the

15     manager of the hydroelectric plant, Muharem Tanovic the following

16     question:  "Manager, sir, if necessary, do you think we could cut off the

17     electricity supply for Herceg-Bosna?"  And manager Tanovic replied, "That

18     can be done, President, sir."  And then Izetbegovic said, "Well, that is

19     a good thing."

20             That's as much as I can tell you about the meeting.

21        Q.   You've told us everything, Mr. Zelenika, but you don't give us

22     the time-frame.  When did this occur?

23        A.   This happened in the fall of 1992.  I can't be more specific.  It

24     wasn't wintertime.  It wasn't summertime.  It was the fall of 1992.  It

25     might have been October, for example.

Page 33154

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember, if you have any knowledge, that, in

 2     fact, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina after that period and until the

 3     end of the war used electricity as a weapon, as a means of pressuring the

 4     population or some of the areas inhabited by Croats?

 5        A.   I do have knowledge about that.  After I was -- after I got out

 6     of the camp of the -- on the 1st of March, 1994, I found out that in

 7     Mostar there was no power either.  And my wife had worked for 13 years in

 8     the electrical company, and she knew certain things about the technology.

 9     Although she was a lawyer, she knew that there was a plant in Jablanica

10     where the electricity, not only from the power station in Jablanica but

11     also other power stations, could be redirected.  That's one piece of

12     information.

13             Another piece of information is that just after the conflict, the

14     armed conflict between the HVO and the BH army on the 15th of April, the

15     electricity in the western part of Jablanica municipality, in the area

16     held by the HVO, was turned off on that day, and for the following 22

17     months people had no electricity, although the armed conflict between the

18     HVO and the BH army did not last that long.

19             In the summer of 1994, when I had recovered a bit, I came to

20     Jablanica to the first meetings organised by international mediators

21     between the warring parties so that they could start a dialogue, and at

22     the very first meeting, I raised the issue of electricity, supply to the

23     western part of our municipality which was mainly inhabited by Croats.

24             I raised the issue at least three times in that period.  And when

25     I realised there is no willingness to deal with the issue, then we in the

Page 33155

 1     area inhabited by Croats had to make a move of our own and build a new

 2     transmission line to bring electricity from a different power station,

 3     whereas until that time we had used electricity from the Jablanica power

 4     station.

 5        Q.   It's very clear.  I just have to make a pause between question

 6     and answer to make sure that everything is on the record, because we

 7     speak the same language, and we must not overlap.

 8             Thank you very much for this answer.  We'll now move on to

 9     another topic, and we'll come back to the documents about the use and

10     abuse of electricity.

11             I will call 1D 01461, and you will see that document on the

12     screen.  You have been shown that document before by Mr. Karnavas.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] For the benefit of the Trial

14     Chamber, that's from the batch of Mr. Karnavas under 8, civilian

15     authorities in Jablanica.  It's document number 6.  I'm sorry I hadn't

16     prepared it again, because it was used today.

17        Q.   I would like to ask you for a comment on this document.  Let us

18     focus just on that first paragraph, which will introduce my further

19     questions.

20             It's a document from the Presidency of the Jablanica

21     municipality, signed by Nijaz Ivkovic, and as my colleague Mr. Karnavas

22     said, was the 12th January, and the first paragraph reads:  "The media

23     (BH radio and TV) have lately broadcast information depicting Jablanica

24     municipality and the situation in it in a very tendentious and malicious

25     way causing concern and fear among the citizens of Jablanica and its

Page 33156

 1     legal bodies."

 2             You were asked a question by Mr. Karnavas about this.  There is

 3     talk here of violence and incidents that occurred up until the 12th of

 4     January.  There is something that I would like us to be more specific

 5     about, though.  If you look at the parentheses, it says that the

 6     information was broadcast by the BH radio and TV.

 7             Can you tell me under whose control the BH TV was at the time and

 8     I believe you know that.  Where was it physically located and under whose

 9     control was it, both the radio and the television?

10        A.   Both the BH radio and the BH TV were in Sarajevo, and were under

11     the control of the Muslim armed forces.

12        Q.   Or the BH army; right?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   May we therefore conclude that the BH TV that was under the

15     control of the BH army was broadcasting news, criticising action taken by

16     the BH army in the Jablanica area?

17             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honours.  I object to both the

18     leading nature of the question and also to the speculation.  There's

19     no -- there's no indication on the record at this point this witness

20     knows who was operating the radio station.  Counsel's questions were

21     where was it located.  It may have been located in territory then

22     controlled in general, one might say, by Muslim forces, but to jump

23     from -- ask this witness to jump from that to that they were operating

24     and broadcasting these whatever broadcast, shows, whatever you want to

25     call it, is a huge jump of logic and the witness can't say that unless he

Page 33157

 1     can indicate he has some personal knowledge of it.  I don't think he's

 2     given any indication that he was in Sarajevo at these radio stations or

 3     television stations at the time.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I just respond

 5     briefly?  First of all, I would like to inform my learned friend that

 6     this is a cross-examination.  I'm allowed to ask leading questions.

 7             Secondly, I assume that all of us in this courtroom know that

 8     Sarajevo, throughout the war between that April and the signing of the

 9     Dayton agreement was under the control of the Serbs in the middle of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These are generally known facts.  I asked the

11     witness to confirm that, and I asked him to tell me how he knows that.

12     Both the BH TV and the BH radio were in Sarajevo throughout the war.  He

13     confirmed that he knew this.  I asked him whether he knew.  He said he

14     did.  That is generally known fact, and throughout they were under the

15     control of the BH army.  This is a generally known fact.  I will allow

16     the witness to say how he came to know that, and he will explain.

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a single

18     correction for the transcript.  Lines 18 and 19, Ms. Nozica said that

19     throughout the period, she specified Sarajevo was surrounded by the Serbs

20     but under the control of the BH army.  May that be clarified, please lest

21     the misinterpretation lead to some confusion.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you heard the

23     question.  You heard the objection.  You heard the reply.  The question

24     is as follows:  Did the Sarajevo BiH radio, was it under the BiH control

25     in Sarajevo?  That was the question put to you.  And in answering a

Page 33158

 1     question -- or TV, rather.  And in answering a question you said that

 2     there was cable TV in Jablanica and that you could receive Sarajevo

 3     programmes in that way.  Did I understand properly?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your understanding is correct.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I am taking issue with you,

 6     Ms. Nozica, about cross-examination.  Mr. Karnavas has announced that in

 7     his direct, he would cover the question of this electricity plan.  Then

 8     he had -- his time was up, and electricity did not come in his direct.

 9             Now, I find it difficult to accept -- and you have indicated that

10     you would leave it to the Chamber anyhow, that it is cross-examination

11     when, in fact, you continue the direct on a subject which was announced

12     as a subject on direct but was not -- was not mentioned in direct.  I

13     think it's rather a continuation.  So I think also it would be correct

14     that you would refrain from direct questions on this subject.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you for this caution, Your

16     Honour.  I have completed the Izetbegovic meeting, and now I've moved on

17     to an entirely new subject, but I do agree with you.  If you believe that

18     the Izetbegovic meeting is examination-in-chief, deduct the time from the

19     time allocated to me.  I'm entirely in your hands.  I am now moving on to

20     a document that the witness has been shown.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much, and I'm much relieved now

22     that we have harmony in the courtroom.  Thank you.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, sir, I would like us to return to this because I

25     considered this to be exceptionally important.  Judge Antonetti asked you

Page 33159

 1     a while ago whether there was any sort of capable TV in Konjic -- rather

 2     in Jablanica, and you said yes.  Can I ask you one thing about this

 3     document, what exactly does it say here?  Is there a reference here to

 4     something?  Is there a specific reference here to BH radio and TV?  My

 5     question was where was the headquarters, and then my learned friend the

 6     Prosecutor stepped in to say how can you possibly know that, and can you

 7     please just answer this:  Was Sarajevo the seat of both the BH TV and the

 8     BH radio, and how did you come to know that?

 9        A.   The BH TV and radio were headquartered in Sarajevo.  How do I

10     know that?  The distance between Jablanica and Sarajevo is a mere 72

11     kilometres.  Therefore, it's not exactly the far end of the world.

12        Q.   Let's move on.  Was it the same way before the war?  Were both

13     the BH TV and the BH radio headquartered in Sarajevo?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Very well.  Could you just very briefly explain to the Chamber

16     how you know that between April and the Dayton agreement that Sarajevo

17     was encircled on the one hand and under the control of the BH army on the

18     other?

19        A.   I know that because I was receiving information from the -- both

20     TV and radio.  I received their information.

21        Q.   Now we built the foundation, and now I'm going back to the

22     document.  Would the document not seem to suggest that it was that TV

23     station and that radio station under the control of the BH army were

24     being critical about what the armed forces or some elements of the BH

25     army were doing in Jablanica?

Page 33160

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.  The problem here is that the local

 2     authorities in Jablanica in no way agreed with the information such as it

 3     was being transmitted by these two media because the information tended

 4     to be biased, tended to be untrue and never reflected the situation as it

 5     was.  Hence the need for an announcement or a statement like this.  It

 6     was read on many occasions over the local cable TV in Jablanica.

 7        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you now go back to the first document

 8     in my binder.  It is 2D 01431.

 9             You know about the Herceg Stjepan brigade, the Mijat Tomic, the

10     battalion, and this report was signed by Marko Zelenika.  Do you know

11     Marko Zelenika?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Fine.  The date is the 11th of November, 1992.  Now I'll just

14     remind you of a couple of important points reflected in this report about

15     the situation as it prevailed in Jablanica at the time.  And you can tell

16     us what you know about that.  It reads:  "After the events in Prozor, the

17     BH armed forces in Jablanica have begun with activities causing unrest

18     and disturbance with the Croatian population."

19             And then you go on to list some of these such as placing granite

20     blocks on the road between Jablanica and Prozor in a place called

21     Slatina.

22             Can you confirm that this was, in fact, the case back in

23     November, on or about the 11th of November that these activities were in

24     process?

25        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

Page 33161

 1        Q.   It goes on to state:  "In Slatina they are digging trenches,

 2     setting up machine-gun nests and deploying themselves at these positions

 3     about 50 to 60 soldiers."

 4             It goes on:  "As a consequence of these activities, some of the

 5     Croatian population is moving out of the area, because they are being

 6     taunted, firing near their houses, verbal abuse, threats and other

 7     things."

 8             Did you know about this too?

 9        A.   Yes, I can fully confirm this as well.

10        Q.   Okay.  It goes on to say:  "On the road from Jablanica towards

11     Doljani, three rows of granite blocks were set up, and after we

12     threatened to move all the Croats out of Jablanica, they removed those."

13     Can you confirm that too?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   "On the way into Doljani, along the Jablanica road, machine-gun

16     nests are being built that they are still holding."  Did you have this

17     information?

18        A.   I actually saw this myself.

19        Q.   In the town of Jablanica, they are setting up multiple

20     machine-gun nests on top of buildings.  The museum, the Unis building,

21     two residential buildings, the hill facing the building in which the HVO

22     command is located, the railway station, and other positions too.  Can

23     you remember if you saw any of these?

24        A.   Some I did.  But I can confirm what you're talking about in terms

25     of this being the general context.

Page 33162

 1        Q.   They are moving municipal workers out.  You should know that is

 2     true.  And they're turning the building into an armed forces military

 3     base or, rather, the command of the Neretva Brigade.  Do you know about

 4     that?

 5        A.   I know about that in detail.  There's an order from the War

 6     Presidency for the hydroelectric plant admin to be moved out of the old

 7     hotel and the municipal administration would now be moving into the old

 8     hotel, whereas the previous building of the administration would be now

 9     turned into a barracks to be used by the 44th Neretva Mountain Brigade in

10     Jablanica.

11        Q.   All right.  I just between draw your attention to something else,

12     and this is the second to last paragraph on the is second to last

13     paragraph of this document in Croatian it reads:  "We were drawing their

14     attention to the fact that all the newly set up machine-guns were trained

15     on Croat settlements and that they had to remove those.  This came to

16     nothing, however.  Quite the contrary, in fact.  They are setting up new

17     machine-gun nests."  Was this the situation that you found in November,

18     and can you confirm that the same situation continued in December as

19     well, these acts of provocation by the BH army throughout the period were

20     a permanent feature?

21        A.   I can confirm that in its entirety.  As time went on, the whole

22     thing was being stepped up little by little.

23        Q.   Mr. Karnavas asked you about how the political leadership was

24     replaced in Konjic, and you spoke about that a little.  I will show you

25     another document now.  I'm not sure if you've seen it before but --

Page 33163

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we move on to another

 2     document.

 3             This document is signed by Marko Zelenika.  Is that your brother?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was part of the Herceg

 6     Stjepan Brigade, 3rd Battalion, 11th of November, 1992.  Is that so?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He was the commander of the

 8     battalion that was part of the Herceg Stjepan brigade.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was your brother detained with

10     you in the museum?  This morning we saw a list, and he was in the list as

11     you were.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he was detained in

13     Donja Jablanica with Zuka, and then because of the consequences he

14     suffered he died in a camp.  He was not at the museum.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did he die because of the

16     consequences of his detention?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's what the doctors

18     established.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware of that.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you,

21     Your Honour.

22        Q.   I wasn't aware of that either.  I wouldn't have tried to summon

23     these emotions in you.  I wasn't aware of the fact that this was your

24     brother.  Sir, perhaps you want another break.

25        A.   No, no need.

Page 33164

 1        Q.   Sir, can we move on to our next document in this binder?  I'm not

 2     sure if you've seen it or not.  This is 2D 000814.

 3             Have you found the document, sir?  This is an order by Sefer

 4     Halilovic.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You've never seen this one before?

 7        A.   I don't think so.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'll do my best to tell you in a nutshell what it's

 9     about.  Let's see if these are incidents that you, too, you familiar

10     with.  I'm talking about incidents or developments in which the BH army

11     leadership and the SDA leadership appointed Mr. Cibo and others in

12     Jablanica because they were unhappy with the policies in Jablanica and

13     Konjic, the policies pursued by individuals who were working with the

14     Croatian population.  And then in the preamble this is addressed.  It

15     tells us about information being available, that in the Jablanica,

16     Konjic, Pozrica, Pazajevina [as interpreted] area and probably other

17     areas too.  Throughout the area responsibility of the 4th Corps, a minor

18     part of BH army personnel of the MUP and of the authorities, are now

19     entirely in the service of the HZ HB.  And then there is particular focus

20     on Dr. Hadzihusejnovic from Konjic and others too, and then comes the

21     order.  "Go to Igman as soon as possible.  Have a talk with the Igman OG

22     commander, Dzevad Radja, and Zulfikar Alispago as well as others.  Number

23     two, enlist the assistance of all the other sources in order to be able

24     to take in the entire situation.  The problem as follows deal with

25     anything that is in your purview, make any replacements that you need.

Page 33165

 1     Paragraph 4 says:  "Propose special measures, prosecute if need be, and

 2     take any other steps that you deem necessary."

 3             And then paragraph 5 says:  "Check if similar things are going on

 4     elsewhere."

 5             Mr. Zelenika, can you confirm that this order reflects precisely

 6     what you have been telling us about.  And what I mean is the efforts made

 7     by the BH army leadership to sever any links that may have existed

 8     between the HVO, the civilian authorities in Jablanica Konjic and other

 9     localities on the one hand, and the BH army and the civilian authorities

10     as they refer to themselves of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on

11     the other.

12        A.   In a way this is a blueprint for what happened at a later stage.

13        Q.   Excellent.  Can we now please move on to page 2 of this document.

14     I will read this out to you slowly.  The 22nd of January, 1993.  The

15     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, same as the one before.  1st Corps

16     command.  It reads -- this is to the Jablanica command, specifically

17     commander Safet Bozo.  "Safet, you should go to Konjic and convey a

18     serious warning to Jasmin Guska of the Konjic police because of his

19     cooperation with the HVO and giving away the BH army positions.  He

20     should be seriously threatened because we are receiving daily reports on

21     his actions.  Tell him that the BH army military security has authorised

22     you to give him this final warning.

23              "Regards, the Doctor."

24             Who was referred to as the Doctor?

25        A.   This is the second document that we're looking at today that

Page 33166

 1     confirms the authority of the Dr. Safet Cibo to get involved in military

 2     matters.  As for this man Safet, his name is Hindic his nickname is Bozo.

 3     He is a commander of the military police from Jablanica.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'll certainly defer to the language

 5     experts on this I only raise it -- the possibility, but at least as it's

 6     translated in the English version of that particular document, what is

 7     says is this man should be seriously reprimanded as opposed to

 8     threatened, which was the question that counsel put to the witness.  She

 9     used the word threatened.  Again if it's a language issue, I will defer

10     to the experts on that but document says reprimanded not threatened and I

11     note there is a difference.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters would like to confirm that the

13     word used in the original is threatened as opposed to reprimanded.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have reprimanded in

16     English.  I hear from the French booth that the word as translated was

17     mis en garde, so warning, or cautioned.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the mistake is mine.

19     This is an OTP exhibit used in a different trial, and it was admitted in

20     this form.  This is an OTP translation, and I'm quite happy that the

21     Prosecutor was the one to notice the error.  The original reads

22     zaprijetiti.  The document was provided to the booths, and they can deal

23     with this.  After all, we have it in e-court as well.  It reads he should

24     be seriously threatened, not cautioned or warned.

25             I'm not sure if clarifies it.  Can we take this to have been

Page 33167

 1     corrected now and the record set straight.

 2             My colleagues believe that I should repeat this.  The original

 3     reads "He should be seriously threatened."  We have this in e-court, the

 4     original, and the interpreters, too, can see that this is indeed what the

 5     original says.

 6             Is this clear now?  May I move on?

 7        Q.   Another thing that is noteworthy, and I do have to go back to

 8     this because we've been slightly derailed by this interpretation

 9     discussion, but just to make this clear to myself.  Can you confirm that

10     this document was signed by "the doctor," the doctor being Safet Cibo?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Something else we've looked at the documents shown to you by

13     Mr. Karnavas about Mr. Cibo's appointment to a certain military position

14     in March 1993, the 20th of March, and then Mr. Izetbegovic appointed him

15     on the 13th of March to that civilian position as president of the War

16     Presidency, chairman of the War Presidency.  We see him taking steps as

17     early as January 1993 in the Konjic and Jablanica areas because that's

18     what we're talking about, these two areas; right?

19        A.   Yes, indeed.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, I would like to go a little step --

22     no.  I -- I had been looking for the signature, and now I see that it is

23     on the very first -- on the -- on the first paper, think.  There is

24     actually a signature, because in the translation it says also.  I'm

25     sorry.  That is Halilovic, but you asked about the signature of Cibo, and

Page 33168

 1     the witness said yes, but we just see the name "The Doctor."  So I

 2     suppose your question is whether he can say that "The Doctor" stands for

 3     Mr. Cibo, and then I think we should perhaps know how he can conclude

 4     this.

 5             Witness, now -- there is no signature of Dr. Cibo in these

 6     documents.  You agree?  You --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You said there was one and you recognise it.

 9     But how can you tell us that it is -- that the term "Doctor" hides

10     Dr. Cibo?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Cibo was, as a

12     matter of fact, a doctor.  So in Jablanica and Konjic, whenever somebody

13     said "The doctor," we knew there was a reference to Mr. Safet Cibo.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So he was the only one there, the only doctor?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  He was the only doctor

16     who was in a position of authority, both the civilian authority and

17     interfering with the work of the military units.  There were other

18     doctors around, but they did no such things.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  Thank you.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Maybe it

21     was a slip of the tongue.  I didn't mention that.  I just asked about who

22     the person was.  I know there is a no signature.  I can see for myself.

23        Q.   Sir, can we move on to the next.  This is document P 01696, and

24     we'll just skim through this document.  This is an order that you were

25     shown by Mr. Karnavas.  This is Prlic Defence document 1D 2756.  We see

Page 33169

 1     here that Dr. Cibo was then appointed to a military position, right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   We realise now that he had an appointment to one of the civilian

 4     bodies chairman of the Crisis Staff by Mr. Izetbegovic.  And then again

 5     for the benefit of the transcript, the document is 1D 2753.

 6             Now, sir, let us move on to 2D 01439.  This is a document from

 7     Konjic.  The date is, and that's an important date for me, the 12th of

 8     April, 1993.  The Herceg Stjepan Brigade from Konjic.  You tell us

 9     yourself that the distance between Jablanica and Konjic is very small.

10     Can you also confirm that the towns had a lot of links during the war?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 3.  On April 10th and 11th, and this is in

13     1993, of this year, representatives of the BH Ministry of Interior

14     Avdo Hebib and Nijaz Skenderagic were in Konjic, their objective being to

15     relieve from duty the president of the wartime Presidency Dr. Rusmir

16     Hadzihusejnovic on behalf of the RBH Presidency.  The task was done on

17     the 11th of April at 11 o'clock in the presence of Esad Ramic, and this

18     was something that was done by the state commission on behalf of the 4th

19     BH army corps.  As a result, as of the 10th of April Safet Cibo became

20     the official president of Konjic -- wartime president of Konjic

21     municipality.

22             Do you remember if this really happened, because when you

23     testified in-chief, you said you knew that Dr. Hadzihusejnovic did not

24     just leave his position without putting up a fight.  Is this the event

25     that you discussed, where there was a certain, what shall I put, an abuse

Page 33170

 1     of force in order to make this man leave this post?

 2        A.   I'm really glad because this document seems to confirm what I

 3     testified to in chief.  I've never seen this document that much is true

 4     but this is exactly the information that was available to me and what my

 5     information indicated, and that was the interpretation I offered in

 6     chief.

 7        Q.   Can we look -- we'll go through the next documents quickly.  The

 8     next one is 2D 00237.  You had said at the beginning of my examination

 9     and in the course of the examination-in-chief that the conflict between

10     the HVO and the BH army occurred on the 15th of April, 1993.  I'll show

11     you a couple of documents that reflect this situation.  This is a

12     document from Jablanica signed by the commander of the 5th Battalion,

13     Stipe Pole.  Did you know Stipe Pole?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This is the report of the 12th of March.  Mr. Pole says in item 1

16     as follows:  "After the removal the flag from the installation where the

17     military police was stationed (currently moved to Doljani) at 1500 hours

18     possession of the rooms used by the BH army military police was taken by

19     force."

20             Do you remember this?

21        A.   Yes.  I was in Jablanica then.

22        Q.   Number 2:  "Zulfikar Alispago, Zuka, settled with his unit at the

23     Jablanica hotel."  Do you remember that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Item 3:  "Beginning with 1500 hours, check-points performed in

Page 33171

 1     intensified control and search of Croat nationals."  Do you remember

 2     these activities?

 3        A.   I have personal experience.  When I went to Mostar on the 13th, I

 4     was turned back from the check-point near Aleksin Han.  So as early as

 5     the 13th, I was unable to go Mostar.

 6        Q.   The next time -- item says that Dr. Safet Cibo prohibited all

 7     catering establishments from remaining open after 1500 hours.  Do you

 8     remember measures of this kind?

 9        A.   I don't remember this detail.

10        Q.   It says, "As we speak, the vehicles of Zuka's army circled around

11     town and more intense shooting occurred around the Jablanica water

12     turbine."

13        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I lived 30, 50 metres away.

14        Q.   Can we now look at P 0 --

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Just a little correction.  You have

16     said that the document was of the 12th of March, but in my copy it says

17     April, and I think also in the original it is corrected.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It's a slip of the

19     tongue maybe.  Thank you.

20        Q.   The next document is P 1882, dated 15 April 1993.  Again signed

21     by Stipe Pole, Herceg Stjepan brigade, 3rd Battalion, Mijat Tomic,

22     Jablanica.  Third line from the top.  Muslim forces are carrying out

23     movements and maneuvers in order to encircle our forces in Sovici and

24     Doljani.  Any and every entrance or exits of citizens of the Croat

25     nationality into and from the city is prohibited, so that 600 of our

Page 33172

 1     civilians remain in the city.

 2             From the territory of our municipality there are ongoing

 3     operations in the Neretvica valley, the strongest oppositions are being

 4     carried out from the direction of Ostrozac Muslim forces are moving from

 5     Paprasko across the lake towards Boksevica.

 6             In your evidence you said yourself that two days earlier you were

 7     unable to go to Mostar, you were prevented from leaving the city.  This

 8     document confirms this, doesn't it?

 9        A.   I was one of the 600 civilians who remained in Jablanica.

10        Q.   Let's look at the next document.  P 1977.  You spoke during

11     examination-in-chief about a meeting that you attended personally on the

12     12th of June, 1993, chaired by Mr. Cibo.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This is a report from Rama Prozor, IPD, information and

15     propaganda section, dated 19 April 1993.  I'll show you just one segment

16     that you might know about.  Was there a report on that -- at that meeting

17     about looting by committed BH army members against Croats and other

18     incidents victimizing Croats?

19             This passage that's the fourth paragraph says:  "In the areas

20     held by Muslim extremists, Croat homes are being looted and torched,

21     whereas the population is being captured and taken no one knows where.

22     In Jablanica itself they are expelling Croats from their homes,

23     mistreating them and expelling them from Jablanica, trying in that way to

24     ethnically cleanse Jablanica and deliver it to Sefer and his associates."

25     And then it goes on to say:  "In the afternoon of the 18 April 1993, they

Page 33173

 1     disconnected electricity to Rama Prozor."

 2             Can you confirm that this happened at that time?  Does this

 3     document faithfully reflect also what was discussed at that meeting, what

 4     you said to Mr. Cibo on the 12th of June, 1993?

 5        A.   This is not listed in the order of the seriousness of -- of

 6     crimes, because it's a much graver offence to take someone prisoner than

 7     to seize their car.  But it does mention the cut-off of electricity and

 8     the blackout, the resulting blackout lasted for 22 months, as I said.

 9        Q.   You are trying to say that if you had written the report

10     yourself, you would have put capturing people first, then expelling

11     people from their apartments, and then, perhaps, I would have mentioned

12     cars.  But for the rest you agree?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let's see document 2D 01143.  It reflects precisely what you said

15     at the meeting of the 12th of June, 1993.  It's report by SIS from 1995

16     to be quite clear, but it speaks of the destruction of buildings in the

17     territory of Jablanica municipalities, and then it mentions April and

18     May, and it says:  "Members of the BH army devastated in villages

19     Zuglici, Mrakovo, and Sabancici, 20 residential buildings owned by

20     Croats.  Croats from these villages were first expelled to Jablanica, and

21     not long afterwards, they were imprisoned at the museum prison."  Then it

22     refers again to looting.  "In Orasac five Croat homes were looted.  In

23     Jablanica one Croat house was looted.  And Croat families were driven out

24     of 50 apartments.  In Doljani a unit of the BH army entered the hamlets

25     listed here.  In Doljani itself members of the BH army looted and

Page 33174

 1     destroyed the community house, the community hall.  In Slatina 20 houses

 2     were looted and burnt down."  We have a list of other villages where this

 3     happened, and churches and cemeteries near Jablanica, Doljani, Globusica

 4     damaged in this same period.

 5             Having looked at this document, can you confirm most of these

 6     incidents?  Were you aware of all that at the time or learned about it

 7     later?

 8        A.   I knew about that.  Already in the second half of April 1993

 9     members of the BH army in Zuglici, Mrakovo, Sabancici, and Donja

10     Jablanica villages took away all the Croats living there, brought them to

11     the intersection in Jablanica outside the hotel and left them to their

12     own devices.  Some of the Croats went to the homes of the family they had

13     in Jablanica, but they were later picked up and put in prison together

14     with the others.

15             In Jablanica, in the six, seven Croat homes, the people were

16     expelled, and Zuka's army moved then to the hotel making it its base.

17     From that time on the hotel was called Zuka's base.  We called it the

18     Rogic houses or Zuka's base.

19        Q.   Can we look at P 2128.  You will see that it's a manuscript.

20     It's best a code-name Ognja.  That's the name of the author.  It's sent

21     to the Main Staff of the Supreme Command of the armed forces of BH.  It

22     says to be urgently submitted to the chief of the Main Staff.  It says

23     Maxum Salim [phoen] to all, especially Mr. Ognjak.  I suppose you don't

24     know who Ognja is either, but let us look at something very important in

25     this document.  It begins on page 3, in the Croat version, and in English

Page 33175

 1     that would be 00430013.  I will focus on 00430015.  That's the English

 2     page.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  My apologies.  [French on

 4     English channel]

 5             Your Honour, before this document was put before the witness

 6     for -- well, questions and answers, could we get some indication of the

 7     source of this document?  It's a handwritten document.  There's no

 8     indication of where it comes from, and I would ask counsel to at least

 9     give us some preliminary indication of the authenticity of this document,

10     where it was -- where it was obtained.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] With all due respect for my learned

12     friend from the Prosecution, I have to say that since this is a

13     Prosecution document, these questions he should be able to answer

14     himself.  This was a document disclosed to the Defence, is a P exhibit,

15     so I assume the Prosecution knows the source, and that's why they

16     disclosed it.

17             I want to refer to certain points in the document that might be

18     known to the witness, and I would really appreciate it if Mr. Scott would

19     let me finish my cross-examination today, and maybe he can make his

20     objection when I tender the documents.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Well, I'm sorry, Counsel, and I'm not trying to be,

22     you know, funny about it.  If it came from the OTP that may be well and

23     good, and I'll certainly check on that, and then I accept Counsel's

24     representation on it.  I don't -- I still don't see and as I sit here in

25     the courtroom, I don't see the source or any information about where the

Page 33176

 1     document came from itself, not whether you got it from the OTP but where

 2     the document came from.  I just thought you perhaps could assist the

 3     courtroom with that information.  That's all I was suggesting -- asking,

 4     Counsel.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot be sure.  My

 7     colleagues are helping me in trying to establish that, but I believe the

 8     document is on the 65 ter list.  However, it's indisputable that we got

 9     it from the OTP together with their translation.  It has an ERN number,

10     and I suppose it's not a problem to check where it is from.  The document

11     is in e-court.  My colleague tells me it's on the 65 ter list, indeed.

12             I am not trying to be ironic.  It's on the Prosecution 65 ter

13     list.  I expected my learned friend to check first and then object if

14     necessary.  I was just trying to use my time efficiently and finish if

15     possible.

16             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may assist, the

17     Prosecution designates the source of this document as the municipal

18     government on their 65 ter list.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] May I now continue?  I thank my

20     colleague for this.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you can continue.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I refer to page 4 of this document.  I'd like to ask you very

24     briefly, and everybody can follow.  This is a report from an intelligence

25     officer on the developments in the area.  It's the 27th April.  It's an

Page 33177

 1     important date, I believe, and I'm just reminding you.  On page 3 in

 2     Croatian, that is 00430013, this document proposes certain measures for

 3     the period to follow.

 4             On Croatian page 4, and that's ERN 00430015 in the translation,

 5     this document speaks of two axes of attack and says:  "The second axis of

 6     attack is Obri and Kostajnica villages where it is necessary to

 7     completely rout HVO forces, disarm them, take all of them prisoners, and

 8     in that way, we would create on the other side an area where it would be

 9     possible to receive 18.000 Muslims who are now endangered on the left

10     bank of the Neretva.  Our fighting men would then be able to match much

11     more successfully the forces of the joint Chetniks and Croats."

12             I suppose this is a reference to the cleansing performed by BH

13     army members.  Let me ask you, did Konjic have the same number of

14     refugees as Jablanica, and did this indeed happen?  The expulsion of

15     Croats and Muslims from Jablanica, did it lead to the creation of this

16     free area for their accommodation, and was it indeed a way to perform

17     ethnic cleansing?

18        A.   I can confirm this because in the camp itself for six months

19     there were at least 35 captive Croats from Obri and Kostajnica who told

20     me their stories.  If they hadn't told me I wouldn't have been aware

21     this.  But again I read in the diary of General Sefko Hodzic that was

22     published in 22 instalments in Oslobodjenje newspaper writing about the

23     operation Neretva and he mentioned a large number of Muslim refugees in

24     Kostajnica and the problems that they had with accommodation.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'll skip now certain documents that have been

Page 33178

 1     mentioned, and I believe I can go through them with other witnesses.  If

 2     the usher would be so kind to get document 2D 1036.  It should be the

 3     third document from the bottom.  2D 1036.

 4             If you found that document, I suppose you haven't seen it before,

 5     but this is a document of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

 6     armed forces of BH, the 4th Corps command, the military security sector.

 7     The date is 9 February 1994.  It pertains to the detainees held in the

 8     museum of Jablanica.  The document is written by the chief of military

 9     security sector of the 4th Corps.  I'm showing it to you so you can just

10     confirm what you've said previously.

11             The army of Bosnia and Herzegovina is holding civilians in the

12     Jablanica museum as well, and that tallies with the testimony of Safet

13     Idrizovic here in the courtroom.

14             It says:  "Urgently deliver a list of the captured Ustasha

15     soldiers you are holding at the museum of Jablanica.  Also submit the

16     complete list of Croat civilians who are held at the museum in Jablanica.

17     Along with name and surname, indicate the exact date and place of birth.

18     This information is needed for the commission for exchange of war

19     prisoners in Medjugorje in which exchange Jablanica is also involved."

20             Can you confirm that there were not only members of the HVO but

21     also civilians in Jablanica museum?

22        A.   There were 80 or over 80 per cent civilians.  The rest were HVO.

23     I saw Mr. Selman who came and questioned certain soldiers, members of the

24     HVO who were particularly interesting to him.

25        Q.   Mr. Idrizovic said this about Dr. Cibo as well in document 1D --

Page 33179

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you confirm as this document does that these were indeed

 4     captive civilians that were not able to move around freely?

 5        A.   I confirm they were prisoners who were not free to move around.

 6        Q.   In conclusion, I want to show you another two documents, the last

 7     two.  2D 01441.  It's from the 3rd Battalion, Mijat Tomic, Jablanica,

 8     Doljani.  The date is 16 June 1993, and it speaks of the relationship

 9     between the UNPROFOR, UNHCR, and the ICRC on one hand and the HVO on the

10     other.  It's signed by Ivica Tomic, but that's not so important as are

11     the facts indicated in that document.  The second paragraph says:  "The

12     base of the UNHCR in Jablanica is in the premises of the Public Revenue

13     Service, Public Auditing Service, where they have computers and other

14     office equipment, and in return the BH army's using their communication

15     equipment and mobile phones belonging to the UNHCR."

16             Is it true that UNHCR placed their communications and other

17     equipment to -- at the disposal of the BH army?

18        A.   I cannot confirm that, but I can confirm that in those offices of

19     the SDK UNHCR was indeed stationed because the SDK was not working any

20     more.  And the author of this text, Mr. Tomic was killed on the 8th of

21     July in the attack at Doljani.

22        Q.   This also mentions the representative of ICRC, Mark Deparot

23     [phoen].  It says he's billeted in the house of Meho Manjusak, one of the

24     most extremist men in Jablanica.  Did you know this?

25        A.   I know the ICRC was in the house of Meho Manjusak.  They even

Page 33180

 1     placed their flag on the house, but I don't know whether Manjusak was the

 2     greatest extremist or not.

 3        Q.   2D 01442 will be my last document.  It speaks of the situation in

 4     Jablanica in the past three months, focusing on the last month.  I know

 5     you were in captivity at the time, and this document is very relevant to

 6     that.  It says that:  "On the 31st October 1993, 22 of our soldiers

 7     escaped from the -- from detention in Jablanica."  It's the centre of

 8     Sisak, Tomislavgrad.  And the document -- sorry, it's the centre of SIS

 9     in Tomislavgrad and what they knew.  It's the sixth line in Croatian, and

10     the first paragraph in English.  It says:  "According to sources there is

11     great discontent in the army and the civilian population.  They have no

12     fuel, and their food supplies are held by Zuka, who is selling them for

13     Deutschmarks.  Zuka also set up check-points facing Jablanica and Konjic.

14     His soldiers are mainly from Sandzak and the recently released prisoners

15     from Dretelj."

16             I need literally two minutes to finish with this document.  If we

17     could move into private session.  I remember that the witness gave

18     evidence on this in private session.  I don't want to compromise his

19     safety.  But I will be done in two minutes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Wait a moment,

21     Counsel.  Time's up.  We have to finish.  I have to read a short

22     decision, so you will ask your question tomorrow.  A decision, the oral

23     decision is the following:  On the 13th October the Prosecution asked

24     that the cross-examination be put back to another date because it wanted

25     to cross-examine on the basis of conversations with Cvikl for his expert

Page 33181

 1     report.  The Chamber considers this request is premature because

 2     Prosecution has not replied to the expert report.  According to Article

 3     -- Rule 94 bis (B), according to Defence Prlic is requested to put in

 4     another date at the end of November 2008.  Therefore, the Chamber decides

 5     that the cross-examination of the Zelenika witness has to continue this

 6     week as agreed.  That is to say tomorrow and rejects the request of

 7     Prosecution to postpone to another date.  The Chamber also decides not to

 8     decide on the request of the Prosecution for a cross-examination of the

 9     witness on the conversations he may have had with Witness Cvikl at a

10     later date.

11             So cross-examination of the Prosecutor will start tomorrow, and

12     if ever the Prosecution still has the intention to ask questions from the

13     witness on the conversations he may have had with Mr. Cvikl, we will see

14     that at a later date.

15             So tomorrow we will resume the question of Mrs. Nozica and her

16     document, but we have already gone further than the time and there's a

17     Chamber coming at a quarter past 2.00.  So we will finish with

18     Counsel Nozica tomorrow, and then Ms. Alaburic will continue, and then

19     Mr. Scott will start his cross-examination.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day

22                           of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.