Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33182

 1                           Wednesday, 15 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Pusic not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Jadranko Prlic et al., thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I greet everybody in the

12     courtroom and Mr. Scott and his team and all the other people who are

13     helping us.  I think Mr. Scott wishes to have the floor.  Mr. Scott, you

14     have the floor.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you very much, Mr. President, each of Your

16     Honours, good morning, and all those in and around the courtroom.

17             Just briefly just on two matters before the day gets away from

18     us.  Yesterday the Chamber ordered in connection with the witness Tomic

19     that the Prlic Defence provide a shortened list of exhibits.  Unless we

20     missed it and if I did miss it, Your Honour, my apologies in advance if

21     there was a date or deadline could be set for that since the witness is

22     appearing fairly soon.  If the Chamber would consider that among

23     themselves.  I'm not asking the Chamber necessarily to rule this moment

24     but if we could get a deadline, please, for that.  Again, if I missed it

25     I apologise.

Page 33183

 1             The second matter, Your Honour, if we could go into private

 2     session just for a moment.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, yes.

 4                           [Private session]

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Page 33184











11 Pages 33184-33186 redacted. Private session.















Page 33187

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're become in open session, Your Honours.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18                           WITNESS:  MIRKO ZELENIKA [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  Sorry to

21     make you wait nearly a quarter of an hour, but we had to solve a few

22     housekeeping matters.  So you're welcome, and I'm giving the floor to

23     Ms. Nozica who will finish her cross-examination.

24             Ms. Nozica.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning.  Good

Page 33188

 1     morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to all.

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Zelenika.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   I've been given five minutes to wrap up my cross-examination.

 6     Can we please go back to a document that we were looking at at the close

 7     of yesterday's hearing, the last document in my binder.  I'm not sure if

 8     you have that in front of you, sir.

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Fine.  I'll just repeat very briefly, there's no need for us to

11     go through this again.  This is 2D 01442.  This is a report from

12     Tomislavgrad brought an Official Note about the situation in Jablanica

13     over the previous three months with a special focus on the last month.

14     The note is dated the 10th of November, 1993.

15             We see mentioned in this Official Note some circumstances that

16     you might be familiar with, and this is in relation to an area in which

17     you were present at the time.

18             Can we please have --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 33189











11 Pages 33189-33191 redacted. Private session.















Page 33192

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I welcome you

 4     again, give you the floor.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 6                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

 7        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Zelenika.  Good morning to everyone in

 8     the courtroom.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all the other microphones be switched

10     off, please.  We can't hear Mrs. Alaburic.  Thank you.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I will be asking you five questions or five groups of questions

13     depending on the answers.  These questions have to do with Mr. Zelenika's

14     answers, the answers he provided to the Prlic Defence.  It's about

15     military conscripts, the name of the BH army, the blocking of roads by

16     using granite blocks, the meetings of the Croats with Dr. Cibo in 1993,

17     and the replacement of Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic.

18             The next group of questions will be about displaced persons

19     staying in Jablanica.  I will want to know in particular about people

20     from Sovici and Doljani.

21             The next group of questions will be about Konjic and Jablanica.

22     This will have to do directly with a particular question raised by my

23     learned friend Mr. Karnavas and the documents that have so far been

24     shown.

25             I will also try to use the presence ever this witness to discuss

Page 33193

 1     developments in the area in March 1993, depending, of course, on how much

 2     knowledge about these events the witness actually has.  And then whatever

 3     time remains, if there isn't enough time for me to complete my

 4     cross-examination, I will ask the Chamber to extend my time and then for

 5     that time to be deducted from the overall time for the Petkovic Defence.

 6     I just want to make sure I don't cause any changes to the scheduling

 7     concerning this witness.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, we don't have much

 9     time because the Prosecutor has four hours for his cross-examination.

10     There will possibly be some redirect.  If the witness is ready to stay

11     until next week but if he has to go back home -- so do your best, please.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this will certainly

13     not require the witness to stay over the weekend.  This may be about an

14     extra half hour that may be involved but if the witness simply knows

15     nothing about this, we might be ready in no time at all.

16        Q.   Mr. Zelenika, I would like to --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just say maybe you will

18     need an extra half hour, but you have already have an hour.  If you have

19     an extra half hour, that makes an hour and a half, and my concern is for

20     Mr. Scott who has got four hours.  The whole problem is there.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may just remind

22     you today is Wednesday.  We have the schedule for tomorrow, for Thursday,

23     a total of just under eight hours.  I don't think we should be facing any

24     difficulty.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall see.

Page 33194

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Zelenika, Mr. Karnavas showed you a document by Mr. Safet

 3     Cibo yesterday dated May 1993.  It was actually an order to mobilise men

 4     between 15 and 65 years of age.  This was 1D 349.  My learned friend

 5     Mr. Karnavas asked you whether there was anything that you found to be

 6     unusual about that document.  You said it struck you as unusual that

 7     persons under 18 years of age were being mobilised.  This answer was

 8     recorded yesterday at page 27.

 9             Do you remember that answer, sir?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Zelenika, were you familiar with the rules governing defence

12     and military duty in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?

13        A.   I'm not sure I was 100 per cent familiar, but I knew that

14     military age started at 18.  I'd never realised that people aged 15 could

15     be drafted.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note one speaker at a time,

17     please.  Thank you.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   That's precisely what we'll be looking into now, can we have

20     people under 18 years of age drafted?  Can you look at the set of

21     documents that I've given you.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Usher perhaps hand the

23     documents to the witness.

24        Q.   Meanwhile, let me tell you.  These are organised in a somewhat

25     different way.  The first documents you have are 1D documents.  I'm

Page 33195

 1     talking about the order.  And then 4D.  Can you please look at 4D 413.

 2     My apologies.  1030, 1030.

 3             Have you got that?  This is a decree law on military duty, 4D

 4     1030.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

 6     witness a hand until the witness is used to this new order of documents,

 7     the way they're organised.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Decree law on --

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Yes.  Can we go to Article 13 together, paragraph 3.  It reads:

11     "In the event of an imminent threat of war or the state of war, the

12     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina may order the

13     mobilisation of men 16 years of age."

14        A.   Yes, I see that.

15        Q.   And then 11, paragraph 2.  "The duty for mobilisation recruitment

16     obligation shall start at the beginning of the year in which the citizen

17     of the republic of BH reaches the age of 17."

18             Mr. Zelenika, would it not seem to follow that even persons under

19     17 years of age are, in fact, potential military conscripts and that they

20     have certainly commitments and obligations as far as the defence of the

21     country is concerned at least based on this regulation?

22        A.   Yes, but not under 16.

23        Q.   That's right.  Not under 16.  Mr. Zelenika, have you ever heard

24     of the international convention on the protection of children in war?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33196

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, I think that this point -- previous

 2     point needs some clarification.

 3             Witness, according to you, when does a year begin during which a

 4     person attains 17 years of age?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the year begins on the

 6     1st of January that year.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So if someone was born on the 31st of December,

 8     wouldn't he practically be liable to compulsory service while he has just

 9     attained 16 years?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it follows from your

11     question that you have a particular person in mind, and you know when

12     this person was born, and I'm talking the generalised way.  About no

13     specific person.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I can assure you, Witness, that I have no

15     particular person in mind.  I am just calculating, and it seems to me

16     that under paragraph 3 -- 2, subparagraph 2 of Article 13 it might be

17     that someone who is not yet 17 but still 16 can be called to the arms

18     because it's the year in which he will be 17 that is relevant.

19             Now, would it be -- do you know for sure that Article 13,

20     paragraph 3, is to be interpreted in a different way, because if one

21     interprets it in the same way as indicated in paragraph 2, it might be

22     that someone who has not yet attained 16 but will so in the current year

23     is called lawfully to military service.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never seen this

25     decree law before.  What I'm telling you is more in relation to the

Page 33197

 1     document, the order, where it says, Over 15 years of age.  I've never

 2     seen the decree law, for what it's worth.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Excuse me, Ms. Alaburic, and excuse

 4     me for having misnamed you a while ago.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] That's all right, Your Honour.  No

 6     problem.

 7        Q.   I just named the international convention and the protection of

 8     children in wars.

 9             Mr. Zelenika, have you ever heard that in this convention in the

10     wording that applied in the 1990s, the age limit of 15 was established,

11     so anyone of fully 15 years of age was liable to be engaged in combat?

12     Have you ever heard of this?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   This convention was reformulated only in year 2000, but that's a

15     legal issue.  We'll discuss later.

16             Now will you please look at 1D 1243.  That's a decree law

17     amending this decree law on military obligation that we've just looked

18     at.  I believe that this contains two important changes to the

19     regulation.

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist the

21     witness in finding the document.  1D 1243.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] In the meantime, for the

24     interpreters I would like to issue a warning.  We need names properly

25     pronounced, because on this whole page we have Mrs. Nozica and

Page 33198

 1     Mrs. Alaburic confused all the time.  The person speaking now for your

 2     information is Mrs. Vesna Alaburic.  I would appreciate if this confusion

 3     would cease.

 4             The interpreter just told me that they do name speakers properly

 5     and accurately.  I apologise, therefore to the interpreters, and I am

 6     instructed to address my plea to the court reporter.

 7        Q.   In this document that we've just opened, Mr. Zelenika, there is a

 8     new provision applying to women, and in these three paragraphs it is

 9     stipulated that women may voluntarily enter military service or serve in

10     the reserve units of armed forces and so on and so forth.

11             Mr. Zelenika, to the best of your knowledge, were women actively

12     involved in the activities of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or any other

13     activities in the war effort of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   Again I'm seeing this document for the first time, but based on

15     what you're asking and on what I know, I did see women in Jablanica

16     wearing a uniform, carrying weapons, and I inferred that they were

17     members of the BH army.

18        Q.   All right.  I prepared a document but we're not going to look at

19     it if you know the answer to my question without it.  Did you know that

20     in June 1992, the name Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnian and

21     Herzegovina was replaced with the name BH army?

22        A.   I do know that, but I believe it happened a bit later in

23     Jablanica.  I know about the renaming.

24        Q.   All right.  This document is already an exhibit.  On page 21 of

25     yesterday's transcript, you gave evidence about the obstruction of roads

Page 33199

 1     with granite slabs.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   If I understood you correctly, the road was just narrowed down,

 4     so instead of two lanes there was only one lane on the road.

 5        A.   Right.

 6        Q.   Did this obstruction prevent a large vehicle such as a lorry or a

 7     bus from passing through the remaining opening between the granite

 8     blocks?

 9        A.   Well, I've even only two passages out of the total of four, and

10     as far as I was able to see, a bus could pass through as well as a lorry.

11        Q.   You told us yesterday about the meeting of Croats with Dr. Cibo

12     on the 13th of June, 1993.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   On page 45, line 19, we don't have the number of Croats who

15     attended this meeting with Dr. Cibo.  What's the number?

16        A.   There were 74 Croats at that meeting with Dr. Cibo.

17        Q.   Tell us, if in Jablanica at the time there were around 600

18     Croats, how come only 74 came to the meeting?

19        A.   Well, it was the people from the municipality where Cibo was

20     based who convened the meeting.  I don't know whom they invited.

21        Q.   So those were personal invitations, not a collective affair.

22        A.   Right.  Personal invitations by courier.

23        Q.   You told us yesterday about the replacement of

24     Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic, if I understood you correctly, who was replaced

25     because he was not of extreme views.  He wanted peaceful co-existence and

Page 33200

 1     cooperation with Croats and at that time that was not viewed upon kindly

 2     and he was thought unsuitable to head a municipality.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Yesterday you said that apart from the letter shown to you by my

 5     learned friend Mr. Karnavas he also took other steps to prevent this

 6     replacement that he believed to be unconstitutional and unlawful.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Could you please look at document 4D 451.  It's the request of

 9     Dr. Rusmir Hadzihusejnovic for the decision on replacements in War

10     Presidency to be assessed for the constitutionality.  Dr. Zelenika, did

11     you know that Dr. Hadzihusejnovic filed this request to the

12     Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   I didn't know that this document existed in that form, but I know

14     that he took a number of steps, and I suppose this is one of them.

15        Q.   All right.  We have finished with this set of short questions

16     that related directly to some of your previous answers.  Now I'd like to

17     show you a document that the Prlic Defence had prepared for your

18     evidence, but if my records are right, they did not have time, I suppose,

19     to show you the document.  It's in my set of documents.  It's 1D 1471.

20             While you are looking for it, I will tell you what this document

21     is.

22        A.   Criteria --

23        Q.   Yes.  On the accommodation of refugees from Prozor and Jablanica

24     municipalities.  It was taken by the War Presidency on the 3rd of May,

25     1993.  What I need to know in item II of this decision is this:  It

Page 33201

 1     reads:  "Equal status and treatment shall be granted to refugees from

 2     Sovici and Doljani ..."  Other places are mentioned, but I'm interested

 3     in these two.

 4             Since this document is from the 3rd of May, and we have already

 5     seen evidence in this courtroom, Mr. Zelenika, that in mid-May Muslims

 6     from Sovici arrived at Jablanica, so it was after the conflict, and it

 7     was organised by the BH army, I'd like to know does it transpire from

 8     this document that even before this organised arrival in mid-May, there

 9     were persons from Sovici and Doljani in Jablanica?

10        A.   Yes, beginning with the 15th of April there were Muslim refugees

11     from Sovici and Doljani in the municipal centre of Jablanica, and those

12     who came later, they did not actually come from Sovici.  They came from

13     another area, Konjic, I believe.

14        Q.   I will now put to you the statement of Safet Idrizovic on

15     transcript pages 9666 and 9667.  He said that in the territory of Sovici

16     and Doljani there were troops of the BH army, 120 to 130 of them, most of

17     them placed in Sovici, and their only assignment was that pending the

18     conflict that was expected between the HVO and the BH army, they should

19     evacuate the civilian population of Sovici and Doljani.  He said that the

20     civilian population of Doljani was evacuated in full, but the commander

21     in Sovici did not accomplish his mission.  Instead he surrendered and

22     thus the civilian population had been gathered for their safety in

23     certain houses and then in mid-May they were evacuated to Jablanica.

24             What I want to know is about the evacuation of Sovici and Doljani

25     organised by the BH army before the conflict in mid-April.  Can you

Page 33202

 1     confirm this claim of Mr. Idrizovic?

 2        A.   I cannot confirm that their evacuation was organised by the BH

 3     army, but I can confirm that they arrived in Jablanica because I know

 4     most of these people.  I saw them right after the 15th in Jablanica.

 5     Many of them were from Sovici and Doljani.  But whether they came in an

 6     organised way assisted by the army, I don't know.

 7        Q.   Let us now look at 4D 430.  It's a document from the command of

 8     the 44th Mountain Brigade of the BH army, dated 17 April 1993, sent to

 9     the commander of the 4th Corps, Arif Pasalic, and it's signed by someone

10     named Tetak.

11             To begin with, do you know what's nickname was that, Tetak?

12        A.   I don't.

13        Q.   All right.  We will demonstrate that to the Trial Chamber in the

14     course of our Defence case.  Let us now focus on the document.

15             In the tenth line from the bottom it says:  "At this moment

16     civilians are being evacuated from Doljani while conscripts will remain."

17             Mr. Zelenika, what you just told us, does that tally with the

18     text of this document that civilians from Doljani were being evacuated?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you know that there were any BH army units in Sovici?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Look at the next sentence.  It says:  "We have no communication

23     whatsoever with the 4th Battalion in the village of Sovici."  And then in

24     parentheses "About 140 combatants."

25             Does this correspond with what you know about the number of BH

Page 33203

 1     army men in Sovici?

 2        A.   I didn't know the exact number, but I knew there existed a Sovici

 3     battalion.

 4        Q.   All right.  Look at document 4D 447 now.  It's also from the 44th

 5     Mountain Brigade command.  This time it's the chief of security writing,

 6     Zajko Sihirlic.  It's dated 4 May 1993.

 7             Midway through the document it says:  "Unconditional evacuation

 8     of the civilian population from Doljani and Sovici has been agreed for

 9     tomorrow."

10             Do you know if this is the evacuation that resulted in their

11     arrival at Jablanica around mid-May?

12        A.   Yes, I think that is precisely that population from Doljani and

13     Sovici.

14        Q.   Look at what follows:  "A column of medical vehicles was sent

15     towards Kostajnica escorted by UNPROFOR, military observers, the army,

16     and HVO representatives to evacuate the wounded, which has been

17     accomplished."

18             Did you know that there was also an evacuation of the wounded at

19     the time from this area?

20        A.   Can you help me out here?  Who's wounded?

21        Q.   Well, it doesn't say in the document, but logically I suppose it

22     was all the wounded regardless of the ethnicity.  Otherwise, it would

23     have been specified they were from one or another army.

24        A.   All I know is that I saw a large number of medical vehicles from

25     the direction of Mostar, at least ten.  They were escorted indeed by the

Page 33204

 1     UNPROFOR and the military forces, and they were going to Kostajnica and

 2     Trusina where 22 Croats had been killed, and they were going to collect

 3     the bodies.

 4        Q.   We'll be coming to that later on.  I would like to remind you of

 5     another document.  It was shown to you by Mr. Karnavas.  I believe you

 6     will remember.  1D 2758.  It's an order by Dr. Cibo.  Mr. Zelenika, I'm

 7     positive that you will remember this.  Dr. Cibo on the 27th of April,

 8     1993, says:  "Ljubina must fall tonight.  Boksevica must fall as soon as

 9     possible."  You remember that don't you?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

11        Q.   Can you please explain to the Chamber what Ljubina means.  Is

12     this a village, a town, a mountain, a hill?

13        A.   You might call it a hill.  It's a hill above Konjic.  I said

14     yesterday that this was an elevation.  Ljubina is a hill above Konjic.

15     There was an important communications centre that used to belong to the

16     JNA.  There was this hill, this elevation, and this communications centre

17     that at the time that were held by the HVO.

18        Q.   So what about Ljubina?  Is it not in the vicinity of these three

19     villages, Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, and Turija, in the immediate vicinity of

20     these villages, Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, and Turija?

21        A.   The villages ring a bell, Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, and Turija, but I

22     haven't been to the place myself and I can't tell you about the vicinity.

23        Q.   And what about Boksevica?  What would that be.

24        A.   Boksevica is a somewhat smaller hill, the altitude being between

25     800 and 900 metres.  It lies partly in Konjic municipality and partly in

Page 33205

 1     Jablanica municipality.

 2        Q.   Is Boksevica near Kostajnica?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Witness, what if I show you this map.  Would you be able to mark

 5     Ljubina or Boksevica?  Are you good with maps?

 6        A.   I don't think I'd be able to mark Ljubina for you.  Boksevica I

 7     believe that I'd be able to morning it for you because the Jablanica

 8     lake.

 9        Q.   Can we then try to take care of Boksevica and Kostajnica.  Can I

10     have the usher's assistance, please, for putting this map on the ELMO,

11     and can you please help the witness to mark Boksevica and Kostajnica.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I have to tell

13     you that I'm somewhat lost.  I don't know what you're getting at, and I

14     wonder as to this waste of time.  What do you want to emphasise?

15             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one of the foundation

16     stones of the indictment, corner stones of the indictment is that the

17     clashes between the BH army and the HVO started in mid-April when the HVO

18     attacked certain areas, particularly Jablanica.  The indictment claims

19     that the HVO was trying to take control of Jablanica, that this was the

20     objective of the joint criminal enterprise, to fully establish control

21     over certain municipalities that were part of Herceg-Bosna.

22             What I'm trying to show the witness is a continuation of what

23     Mr. Karnavas was showing the witness when he was showing him the doctor

24     Cibo document, and then Ms. Nozica picked up from there, and I will come

25     back to that document, the fact of that document being, and this is

Page 33206

 1     something that we're trying to prove, that the clashes in the area

 2     erupted in a different way.  What came first was an attack by the BH

 3     army.  We shall be trying to use a succession of documents and BH army

 4     orders in order to show you that the BH army, as early as late March

 5     1993, had a plan to establish full control over the Konjic and Jablanica

 6     region.  We also wish to demonstrate to you why the BH army was focusing

 7     on that area.  We want to tell you about the strategic significance of

 8     the area, this area being a gateway to Sarajevo in a manner of speaking

 9     and the only area in which any sort of action or operation to free

10     Sarajevo could be planned.

11             What I'm telling you now is the very gist of General Petkovic's

12     defence, but I assume the same is true in relation to all the other

13     Defence teams here because this is one of the most substantial subjects

14     in this trial.  I assume that at this point in time, you don't fully

15     understand the link between all these various factors, but once you've

16     seen all the evidence, once you've heard all the facts, and once you've

17     had a chance to understand the context of what was going on in March in

18     Konjic and the BH army activity, the replacement of Hadzihusejnovic, the

19     arrival of extremists as heads of certain municipalities, heads of

20     certain units of the BH army, the creation of offensive plans and the

21     implementation of plans for these attacks, and then the continuation of

22     the implementation of the plans for these attacks throughout the summer

23     of 1993 and then all the way towards the end of 1993.  So we believe that

24     once all that has been said and done, it will become perfectly clear why

25     the clashes erupted between the BH army and the HVO.  It will become

Page 33207

 1     clear that the HVO had no plans at all to fight the Muslims, and it was

 2     precisely because of this that in certain HVO units what you found was

 3     more than 50 per cent Muslim soldiers.  And maybe I shouldn't be going to

 4     this whole defence theory right now.  I believe we've been trying to

 5     establish this in a more systematic fashion so far.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So, Witness, can you please mark Boksevica and Kostajnica?

 9        A.   Sure, but can you just give me a hand, and am I to do this on the

10     screen?

11        Q.   Yes, indeed.  Can we hand the witness a pen or something.

12        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's right.  Over here, fine.

13        Q.   Boksevica?

14        A.   I'll draw a line under Boksevica.

15        Q.   Okay.  Boksevica is a hill and then Kostajnica.

16        A.   Here is Kostajnica.

17        Q.   We'll be going back to this map but maybe a little later on.  Now

18     I would like to refer to a document that you were shown by Mrs. Senka

19     Nozica.  It was a hand-written document if you remember.  I will give you

20     a single sentence from that document there is no need four to go to the

21     actual document.  The date is the 27th of April, 1993, signed by Oganj.

22     A quote from yesterday.  "The other axis of attack is the village of Obri

23     and Kostajnica where it is necessary to cross the HVO forces in their

24     entirety, seize their weapons, and capture all of their members for an

25     exchange.  In this way we could create on the right Bank free basin that

Page 33208

 1     could then hold about 18.000 Muslims from Konjic and the other villages

 2     grouped around Konjic on the left bank of the Neretva River."

 3             Again this is P 2128.

 4             Mr. Zelenika, can you please look for Obri?

 5        A.   Just a minute.  [Marks]

 6        Q.   Fine.  All right.  If we compare Dr. Cibo's order dated the 27th

 7     ever April and this document signed by someone nicknamed Oganj, they're

 8     produced on the same day.  We can see that both documents refer to a need

 9     to liberate -- well, from the standpoint of the BH army, of course, of

10     the area around Obri, the area around Kostajnica and all the way to

11     Boksevica.  What about this basin that should be cleared of the HVO in

12     order to create room for the 18.000 Muslims from Konjic.  What about

13     that?

14        A.   Yes.  And if I may add, I said yesterday that I had been together

15     with another 35 people in the camp who were captured in these very

16     villages.

17        Q.   Can you please put your signature on this map for us, and use

18     today's date, the 15th of October, 2008.  And could we please have IC

19     number for this document?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please, could we

21     have the IC number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This document will be IC 862.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, what was the date?  I'm

24     a little bit lost.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

Page 33209

 1        Q.   The 15th of October.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Could we now please go to 4D 1242.  It's a map.  It's actually

 4     folded, because it's an A3 map.  It reflects the situation in Konjic on

 5     the 24th of April, 1993.  Have you found it, sir?  Right.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If you look at the map, you will see that some of the locations

 8     are marked in green, and these were the places that the BH army captured

 9     and from which Croats were driven out, Trusina, Budisina Ravan, and

10     Puscak.  What about all these villages?  Were Croats driven out from all

11     these villages, and were these villages taken by the BH army?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  And also Vrce, Radesine, and so on and so forth.

13        Q.   All right.  And what about this blue environment around

14     Kostajnica, normally referred to as a pocket?  There were Croats there

15     who had fled Konjic.  This is April 1993.  No later than that.  What

16     about this map in relation to the Konjic area?  Does it not tally with

17     what we've been talking about?  This was an area controlled by the BH

18     army.  And then through the villages of Obri and some other villages.

19     This is marked in red.  The BH army is launching attacks?

20        A.   Yes, this is absolutely correct.

21        Q.   And now look at this small blue circle, Zabrdje, Turija, again

22     shown as some sort of a pocket, Croat populated, HVO controlled.  Do you

23     know that pocket remained in the hands of the Croats until the end of the

24     war?

25        A.   Yes, that's true.  The BH army never managed to take Zabrdje,

Page 33210

 1     Zaslivlje, and Turija.

 2        Q.   Very well what about this other pocket around Kostajnica?  What

 3     exactly went on there?

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  I have a question of understanding.

 5     On the one hand, Ms. Alaburic, you have said that these areas circled in

 6     blue were pockets inhabited by Croats, and on the other hand you have

 7     said they were under control of the ABiH, if I have understood correctly.

 8     I see that they -- they seem to have more or less encircled, but what did

 9     you mean when you asked -- when you said they were -- they have not

10     asked, you have told us all this now, that they were under the control of

11     the ABiH?

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe there's

13     some sort of a misunderstanding there.  If you look at page 28, line 21,

14     I'm talking about a pocket there with Croats in it, HVO controlled, and

15     then the smaller one with the three villages, Zaslivlje, Zabrdje, Turija,

16     the BH army never took that, never, throughout the war.  And now I'm

17     going back to the large pocket around Kostajnica which at this point in

18     time, late April 1993, is still under the control of the Croats.  We see

19     that the BH army is launching attacks on that area, and now I'm asking

20     Mr. Zelenika what is going on with this Croat pocket around Kostajnica

21     after this period marked on the map, after the end of late April 1993.

22     What happened to the Croatian pocket around Kostajnica?

23        A.   The Croatian pocket shown on the map as a rather large one

24     following an attack by the BH army, it was no more.  All of the Croats

25     from this area marked here as a pocket fled across Boksevica towards

Page 33211

 1     Prozor.  Some were captured on route, and those are the prisoners that I

 2     told you about, those who remained and those who I got to know later on.

 3     All of the rest fled across Boksevica towards Prozor.

 4        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Zelenika.

 5             Now I would like to go further back to the month of March just to

 6     make sure whether what the Prosecutor claims happened back in March is

 7     really true.  To begin with, you are a native of the area.  Did Konjic

 8     have any sort of strategic significance for the BH army?  Why is Konjic

 9     really important?

10        A.   Konjic is important to the BH army.  It would have been important

11     to any army in the case of war because it was a very important centre of

12     military industry.  There was a factory called Igman.  This was referred

13     to as special purpose production.  They produced weapons, ammunition,

14     that sort of thing, and that was one of the reasons that Konjic held such

15     a degree of importance for the BH army and would indeed have for any army

16     in the world.

17        Q.   Is Konjic important, for example, if we're planning an operation

18     to lift the siege of Sarajevo, and as we all know Sarajevo at the time

19     was entirely surrounded by the Serb army?

20        A.   If there was an operation like that in the offing, Konjic would

21     definitely have been very important for an operation like that.

22        Q.   And would Konjic have been important in terms of controlling the

23     roads in the area?

24        A.   Yes.  It's important in that way too, because the main road

25     passes straight through Konjic, the Sarajevo-Mostar road.

Page 33212

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, 4D 454, a document prepared for you by the Prlic

 2     Defence.  I won't be pursuing this document with you in great detail, but

 3     this is a report from a meeting of certain units of the BH army and,

 4     rather, their commanders, the Ministry of the Interior, Hadzici,

 5     Jablanica, and Konjic the date being the 28th of March 1993.

 6             Sir, Witness, have you ever seen this document before?

 7        A.   Yes, but I believe that was ten years ago at the very least.

 8        Q.   What about the 23rd?  Is that the day that Dr. Safet Cibo, by

 9     Sefer Halilovic's decision was assigned to the 4th Corps?

10        A.   Indeed.

11        Q.   All right.  I'll be asking you no more than three things by way

12     of clarification.  Paragraph 4 of that document is a decision of sorts to

13     establish full control of the free territory using army and MUP forces.

14     In your understanding of this document this term full control of the free

15     territory, does it mean that the army and the MUP intended to completely

16     eliminate the HVO from that territory?

17        A.   Yes.  And it's even written in so many words somewhere in that

18     document.  In my view this document is a scenario according to which

19     things will be done militarily in the area of Jablanica and Konjic.

20        Q.   All right.  Let us take up 4D 438.  It's already an exhibit.  A

21     document issued by Midhat Cerovac, commander of the Suad Alic Brigade

22     from Konjic.  He says on the 23rd of March that 150 members of the HVO

23     have been captured.  The town has been blocked.  The life in town is

24     paralysed and arrests are continuing.

25             To the best of your knowledge, did such clashes occur already in

Page 33213

 1     the end of March 1993?

 2        A.   I didn't know it on that particular date, but I know that these

 3     people were captured and arrested in Musala and Konjic and taken away.

 4        Q.   I prepared also a number of documents I wanted to use to show

 5     that the conflict was stopped.  Look at 4D 125.  This is a joint order by

 6     Milivoj Petkovic and Arif Pasalic to cease all fighting, to cease

 7     hostilities.

 8             Tell me, did you know that there was this joint decision between

 9     the HVO and the BH army commanders to stop hostilities?

10        A.   I knew about this order, but I also knew that the hostilities did

11     not cease.  Just two days after this date in Orliste village, Konjic

12     municipality, four elderly persons from the Kostic family, all of them

13     were killed.

14        Q.   We'll come later to a document with a list of all these places,

15     but now the name Arif Pasalic reminds me that in this handwritten letter

16     written by code-name Oganj, and that is P 2128, the person under the

17     code-name Oganj says in item 4:  "Concerning Pasalic and his staff (Ramic

18     and others) he and most of them are already HVO for a long time, whether

19     under coercion or otherwise, we'll find out."

20             Do you know, Mr. Zelenika, that Arif Pasalic was considered too

21     cooperative with the HVO by others in the BH army?

22        A.   I knew a couple of things.

23        Q.   Can you elaborate?

24        A.   I did not have occasion to deal with Mr. Pasalic personally, but

25     I heard people talk about that, both from the HVO and the BH army.

Page 33214

 1        Q.   In March and April 1993, was Jablanica within the area of the

 2     4th Corps of the BH army?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And the commander of that corps was Arif Pasalic.

 5        A.   From Mostar to Konjic.

 6        Q.   Relatively shortly there occurred an organisation, didn't it, so

 7     that the area of Konjic and Jablanica fell under the area of the

 8     6th Corps?

 9        A.   Yes.  Its commander was Salko Gusic.

10        Q.   Did you hear people say at the time that this reorganisation was

11     designed just in order for Jablanica and Konjic to be take from under

12     Pasalic's command?

13        A.   I heard that Zuka is the man to ask for anything in that area.

14        Q.   I'll skip over a number of documents.  Now look at 4D 453,

15     already an exhibit.  It's from the Herceg Stjepan Brigade commander from

16     Konjic.  On the 15th of April, 1993, he informs of an attack at Konjic by

17     forces that arrived from Bradina and Igman.  He says they need help.

18     They're asking Kiseljak -- or, rather, units from Central Bosnia to be

19     involved and that units from Prozor tie up these forces with their

20     artillery until something is done.

21             Let me ask you this, and you will answer if you know:  Did you

22     know that HVO units in Konjic that were attacked could not repel the

23     attack on their own, and they were crying for help from Central Bosnia

24     included, and they also asked for the artillery to take off the pressure?

25     I just made a slip of the tongue.  Let me repeat the whole question.

Page 33215

 1             Did you know that units of the HVO in Konjic did not have

 2     sufficient forces to repel the attack themselves?  They were crying for

 3     help from Central Bosnia, and they also asked for artillery of the west

 4     north Herzegovina to somehow take off the pressure on them and facilitate

 5     their situation?  Did you know that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   If you look at this last sentence:  "Move while we are still

 8     alive."  How would you read this sentence in view of the context?

 9        A.   This was written because the Croats were in a desperate situation

10     at that moment.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, concerning assistance, let us look at a document

12     of the BH army, 4D 85.  It's a combat report from the command of the

13     Operative Group Igman, and it's signed by Esad Ramic.  In the second

14     paragraph it says:  "The Zlatar feature is encircled and operations

15     continue.  The HVO forces are desperately asking for assistance."  And

16     then later on it says:  "It is curious that the HVO forces are crying for

17     help via their communications and assistance was promised to them from --

18     from Zlatar and Repovica [phoen]."

19             Did you know about this?

20        A.   Yes.  This document confirms in a very obvious way what we read

21     in the HVO document.

22        Q.   Let us now look at 4D 445.  It's a document of the BH army dated

23     18 April.  In that document we see that the army of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina captured the Zlatar feature and what is of interest to me is

25     the penultimate paragraph which says, I quote:  "The remaining strong

Page 33216

 1     holds on the left bank of the Neretva are -- remain to be liberated.

 2     Turija, Zabrdje, Pomol, and Ljubina."  Tell me was that the Croat pockets

 3     that we discussed and which was attacked by the BH army?

 4        A.   Yes, that's the small pocket on the map.

 5        Q.   Look at the last sentence here.  "Our goal is to liberate them as

 6     soon as possible and to help Jablanica and further on."

 7             What does "further on" mean?

 8        A.   That means on to Mostar and further.

 9        Q.   You mean towards the sea.  Look at 4D 90.  Again Esad Ramic --

10             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I'm just looking at the

11     clock, and I've been trying not to interrupt counsel and, I think the

12     record will show that I've been very quiet this morning.  I would like to

13     raise one matter with the Chamber after the witness is excused, please.

14     It's timely, and I think the Chamber -- it's something I would like the

15     Chamber to hear before the break, but before the right -- immediately

16     prior to the pause, if we could excuse the witness, I would like to raise

17     one matter, please.

18             My apology for the interruption.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So we are going to

20     break immediately after that, but first of all we ask the witness to

21     leave the courtroom.  Then I will give you the floor then, Mr. Scott.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I think I guess I

24     know what you're about to say.  You may proceed.

25             MR. SCOTT:  Once again good morning to all of Your Honours.  I

Page 33217

 1     have -- I have sat quietly this morning and not made interruptions and

 2     contrary to some views that perhaps I'm intervening too much, let this be

 3     an example I've intentionally not intervened in deference to both Defence

 4     counsel who have been on their feet.  But I think this is an important

 5     point and something that we will likely -- the Prosecution will be coming

 6     back to.  Its' been an ongoing issue, but I submit to the Chamber that

 7     today we're seeing an absolutely perfect, absolutely perfect

 8     illustration, and my quarrel is not with counsel.  This is not a personal

 9     issue, it's a process issue.  What we're seeing this morning is this is

10     not cross-examination.  This is the classic what we were discussing some

11     months ago is a common witness.  This witness has provided no adverse

12     testimony to -- not one, not one iota of adverse testimony to either

13     Mr. Stojic or Mr. Petkovic.  That's cross-examination.

14             You said this that possibly would implicate my client.  Let me

15     cross-examine you.  You said Mr. Petkovic made this decision, let me

16     cross-examine you on this.

17             Your Honour, this man is a common witness and more than that,

18     he's become an absolutely free ranging historian, military expert, all

19     the motions.  He knows everything.  Heaven forbid we don't need another

20     witness.  This man knows everything.  And being -- being put -- being

21     directed by letting questions.  I could only hope to have it so good.

22     Where I come from we call that shooting fish in a barrel.  A friendly

23     witness, completely on side.  Fine, fine.  They can call any witness they

24     want.  But then you get to ask leading questions, and it's treated like

25     cross-examination.

Page 33218

 1             Your Honour, this is the classic common witness.  This is not

 2     cross-examination.  With all due respect, and again, my argument is not

 3     with counsel on a personal basis, I'm talking about process.  This is not

 4     cross-examination.  This is the continuation of direct examination.

 5     Ms. Alaburic quite properly, and again, I didn't get on my feet outline

 6     that she was presenting the core of the Defence case, the core of the

 7     Defence case much that's not cross-examination, Your Honour.  And I do

 8     want to come back to this issue.  I do with great respect, think this is

 9     something we have to revisit.  Most generally, but on this particular

10     instance, and I just want to make the point while this testimony is fresh

11     in the Chamber's mind.  Thank you.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. Alaburic.  I

14     thought you were going to say that so, I wasn't wrong at all.

15             What do you have to say, Ms. Alaburic?

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I presented my

17     explanation at your request regarding the relevance of these issues.  I

18     can never indicate the relevance of an issue or a question if I don't

19     indicate why this question is important to our defence.

20             Let me remind my learned friend Mr. Scott that I also said

21     earlier today that I presented the same arguments and points to the

22     Prosecution witnesses as well, and as far as the evidence of the Defence

23     is concerned, we presented it equally by cross-examining Prosecution

24     witnesses and by questioning the witnesses of other Defence teams, and we

25     will do the same with our own.

Page 33219

 1             I am following one and the same consistent line as far as key

 2     topics in this procedure are concerned.  I am not treating this witness

 3     any different than I treated prosecution witnesses.  As far as my

 4     relationship with Mr. Zelenika is concerned, I will put this question at

 5     the end.  I've never seen the man before.  I never exchanged a word with

 6     him.  And I almost completed my questions from cross-examination without

 7     he -- before he even took the stand.  The documents provided were ample,

 8     and we were able to provide in advance -- to prepare in advance.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm told by the registrar that

10     you have used 55 minutes.  How much more time do you need?

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I believe I will finish within 15

12     minutes.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're going to

14     break for 20 minutes now.  Thank you.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, you may proceed.

18             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I'm most grateful.  A very brief matter.

19     In fact, we didn't want to waste or take up the Court's time, but in the

20     break our client has instructed us that we clarify in the same way that

21     my learned friend for General Petkovic clarified that we haven't had any

22     previous contact with this particular witness.  That was patently obvious

23     in my respectful submission when my learned friend Ms. Nozica asked the

24     witness questions regarding his brother.  There's been no prior contact

25     at all.

Page 33220

 1             Your Honour, in my submission the submissions of my learned

 2     friend Mr. Scott whilst he may well have shown a great deal of

 3     forbearance in sitting down and remaining quiet are without significant

 4     merit.  There has been a ruling and guidelines issued by this Trial

 5     Chamber and my learned friend says the issue needs to be revisited.  In

 6     my submission we're never going to get below the 20 per cent plus amount

 7     of time that Judge Prandler initially identified a while back that is

 8     taken up, that is eaten away with procedural issues unless all of us show

 9     some restraint about revisiting matters that have already been argued,

10     already been litigated, and already been judiciously determined.

11             As an aside, I will comment that the submission that

12     cross-examination must be adverse is without a proper basis, in my

13     submission.  I was told in the break by a colleague of mine that when

14     Witness DE gave evidence he was a Prosecution witness, of course.  When

15     Witness DE gave evidence, he was cross-examined by all the Defence teams

16     for at least many Defence teams, but it wasn't because he was necessarily

17     adverse, but it was quite proper cross-examination and no objection was

18     put by the Prosecution that this was inappropriate cross-examination.

19             Now, it may well be the case that one party or the other may not

20     like the testimony that they hear, but that is not a reason, of course,

21     to object to cross-examination, and in that context, of course, Your

22     Honours will have in mind Rule 98 which makes it very clear and clearly

23     has in mind the possibility that proper cross-examination can clearly

24     take place not just when a witness is adverse but when evidence is

25     relevant.  So all these matters in my respectful submission, have to be

Page 33221

 1     borne in mine.  I do apologise for taking up time but on the instructions

 2     of the client we do wish to make it clear in the same way mentioned

 3     previously there was no previous contact between this Defence team and

 4     the witness in the witness box.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honours, ever so briefly, because I did not -- I

 7     wasn't inviting.  Counsel accused me the other day of trying to cut him

 8     off.  I'm in the saying that count doesn't have every right to make his

 9     submissions.  I wasn't suggesting prior to the break that we engage in

10     lengthy debate about this now.  I did think it was an appropriate time

11     simply to highlight the issue to the Chamber.  If the Chamber wants to --

12     and we do have time or wants written submissions or what have you, it may

13     be appropriate to look at the issue.  But I certainly didn't intend to

14     debate the issue at this particular point.  I don't think who whether

15     they've had -- I will say this, just in just direct response to

16     something, I don't think whether they have had contact it is a measure of

17     proper cross or direct whatever or anything else.  That's up to them if

18     they want to have contact with the witness or not.  But I submit to the

19     Chamber that has not any measure of whether something is direct or

20     cross-examination.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just tell both sides that the Chamber is

22     very well aware of this problem.  The Bench has discussed it at length, I

23     may say, and there are merits to the arguments on either side.  We have

24     decided the way we have decided with regard of the Rules of Procedure and

25     Evidence which tend more towards the point of view taken by Mr. Khan,

Page 33222

 1     which does not mean that the -- the point taken by Mr. Scott is without

 2     merits.

 3             Let me just recall, and this has also been an element in our

 4     discussions, that of course finally it is for the Bench to attribute

 5     weight and credibility and importance to the evidence and as I have said

 6     before, I have met with protests, but I think protest was not so

 7     justified.

 8             If counsel, as was the case during -- before the break puts fact

 9     after fact after fact or assertion after assertion to the witness and the

10     witness said yes, yes, yes, it's not the same as if you have a witness

11     who tells his story, and this is going to be taken into account.  But

12     being a rather liberal Chamber, we leave it to a large extent to you

13     colleagues to decide on how you want to proceed, and of course we will

14     assess it, hopefully, and I'm confident as to its worth.

15             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, I am grateful for that clarification.  It

16     is very helpful.  Thank you.

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, just a

18     correction.  I inaccurately informed the Chamber and my learned friends

19     that I had never seen Mr. Zelenika in my life and that I had never talked

20     to him.  My associates have since drawn to my attention the fact that

21     about four years ago, we had lunch together, and of course we talked

22     during that lunch.  This is the extent of my correction in relation to my

23     previous allegation, but again we have not seen each other or talked

24     since, and we have not proofed this witness.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have the

Page 33223

 1     witness brought in.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed, Ms. Alaburic.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, I will try to reduce the remainder of my

 6     cross-examination.  4D 139.  That is our next document.  A document

 7     produced by Mr. Zarko Keza, head of the Military Intelligence Service

 8     with the HVO Main Staff.  The date is the 23rd of April, 1993.

 9             The document contains a list of villages that had up to this

10     point in time been burned and from which Croats had been driven out.  If

11     you look at point A, they're talking about the Konjic municipality and

12     the Klis area.

13             Witness, can you please look at the names of these villages here

14     and tell us if as far as you know the list is accurate.  Were all of

15     these villages really burned, and were the Croats, the Croat population,

16     driven out?

17        A.   The list is accurate.  It would ideally include more villages

18     than those listed here, but certainly all of these were burnt and Croats

19     were driven out of all of these villages mentioned here.

20        Q.   Please look at item B.  Item B, it talks about Konjic town itself

21     as being under the control of the Muslims, the Croats having been driven

22     out or detained.

23             Based on your knowledge, was this really the case in late April

24     1993?

25        A.   Yes, it was.

Page 33224

 1        Q.   Item 2(b), the Croats from the town were driven out and were put

 2     up in the villages of Turija, Zabrdje, and Zaslivlje.  Is this the small

 3     Croatian enclave that we looked at on that map?

 4        A.   Yes.  It's the small Croatian enclave that we drew a circle

 5     around on that map.

 6        Q.   All right.  I'm skipping some portions now.  And at the end we

 7     see a remark to the effect that the village of Vrci was entirely

 8     surrounded that, the Croats were holding up well and the village of Obri

 9     was fully encircled.  According to what you knew, was this really the

10     case?

11        A.   Indeed, but the person who produced the document didn't know this

12     obviously at the time obviously Vrci had been already taken.  Everybody

13     had surrendered and had already ended up in the camp.

14        Q.   Can we please now go to 4D 1241.  It's a one-page document.  It's

15     a bulletin of the 6th Corps of the BH army from January 1994.  We

16     translated a portion of this document that is relevant for our purposes.

17             I would like to draw your attention to this paragraph that

18     begins:  "The beginning of the end."  This is the mid paragraph.  It's

19     the fifth line from the top down.  It reads:  "On Bajram, the 24th of

20     March, 1993, the HVO attacked all of our lines, shelled something," the

21     interpreter missed what "... in Klis and the barracks in Parsovici.  The

22     clashes were stopped by Petkovic and Pasalic who were members of the

23     state commission and up until that point the brigade had disarmed all the

24     villages except Pozetva and Boscak seizing approximately 300 barrels in

25     the process.  During this truce the HVO took the opportunity to plan an

Page 33225

 1     attack on the 16th of April, but two days before on the 14th of April our

 2     units took sudden action and drove them back to Kostajnica, Vrci,

 3     Ljesovina, where they stayed for approximately three and a half months

 4     and then got away."

 5             This quote seems to suggest that the clashes started by the BH

 6     army launching an attack on the 14th of April.  Is this consistent with

 7     what you knew about how this happened?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   May I continue my quote from this document?  "There will be more

10     war.  What we must do is reach the sea coast of our sea, our River Drina,

11     Una, and Sava.  The brigade cleared its area a long time ago but is still

12     thoroughly preparing for further missions.  There has been mobilisation,

13     almost 100 per cent.  There are no shirkers.  Younger age groups are

14     involved and are joining work on appropriate assignments."

15             My question:  Based on your knowledge, Mr. Zelenika, is it true

16     that the BH army carried out a 100 per cent mobilisation of the

17     population in the area at the time?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What about this motion here, shirkers?  What about that?  Did you

20     ever hear anyone referred to as an shirker?  What would that mean?

21     Everyone was mobilised, there are no dodgers or shirkers?

22        A.   That meant there were no people who were just simply walking

23     about and were still free to do as they pleased without having responded

24     to the mobilisation call-up.

25        Q.   Meaning there was no one who had no commitment to the defence

Page 33226

 1     effort; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When it reads younger people have been recorded and are joining

 4     work on appropriate tasks, does that mean people who were under age and

 5     who also had certain commitments in the defence effort?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, absolutely.

 7        Q.   So the end of the quote reads:  "We have sufficient forces to set

 8     free the entire country which has been recognised by the whole world."

 9     That's what the commander told tells us.

10             Based on your knowledge, does this statement include liberating a

11     part of the Mostar territory and then all the way down to the sea coast?

12        A.   Yes.  Well, I mean taking not liberating, as a matter of fact.

13        Q.   From the point of the BH army because we are reading a BH army

14     document, aren't we, and I should have been more specific when I phrased

15     my question for -- for which I do apologise.  In the introduction to this

16     text, we see the following:  "No one can defeat the people when the

17     people are united, when everybody's contributing to the defence effort,

18     women, children, and the elderly."

19             Based on your knowledge, sir, was this the way that the BH army

20     organised life and their defence effort to enlist the assistance of

21     everyone in this overall defence effort?

22        A.   In the area that we're talking about the BH army organised

23     everyone in order to launch attacks on the Croatian population.  That was

24     the purpose.

25        Q.   But it was a defence effort from their point of view; right?

Page 33227

 1        A.   Yes.  Perhaps they might have put it that way.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Based on your knowledge, getting the population organised

 3     like this is this not consistent with what we used to refer to as All

 4     Peoples Defence and social self-protection in the former Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   Yes, it's quite alike.

 6        Q.   Thank you for these answers.  And now I'll move on to something

 7     that is a little more current.  The document is a Praljak Defence

 8     document.  My learned friend Nika Pinter told me because it's not in my

 9     set that the document was delivered yesterday for the purposes of

10     cross-examination.  The document number is 3D 3226.

11             Mr.  Zelenika, you won't need to look at it.  I will read a

12     portion out to you.  This is a decree law from June 2005.  This is about

13     the criteria, modalities, and procedure on the recognition of time spent

14     in the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So this is a decree on the

15     criteria modalities and procedure of recognition of time spent in defence

16     of Bosnia-Herzegovina into the pensions seniority special seniority.

17     Article 2 of this document or this decree reads:  "Right to a special

18     seniority in double duration, which comprises in the pension seniority,

19     has the member of the Croatian Defence Council, member of the army of the

20     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, active and reserve police composition

21     of the competent organ of the Interior, an official and an employee of

22     the competent Ministry of Defence (further in text, member of the armed

23     forces) who participated in defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

24     period from 18th of September 1991 till 23rd of December 1993.  -- or

25     1995."

Page 33228

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  It reads 1993.

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Zelenika, were you familiar with the substance of this

 4     decree?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My learned friend has just drawn my attention to the fact that

 7     the date was misrecorded in the transcript, or that the date -- or was

 8     recorded.  The date is 1995.

 9             "For the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the period from 18th of

10     September 1991 till 23rd of December 1995."

11             Given the wording, Mr. Zelenika, would it not seem to follow that

12     members of the HVO were considered members of the BH armed forces?  Is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   If you look at this regulation that was passed about three years

16     ago, it would seem to follow that all the activities of the Croatian

17     Defence Council between September 1991 and December 1995 are considered

18     as part of the overall defence effort of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19        A.   That is true.

20        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Zelenika.

21        A.   You're very welcome.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

23             Mr. Scott, are you ready?

24             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour.  If I can keep my headset on I am.

25     If we can distribute the packets at this point, the binders, whatever.

Page 33229

 1             May I proceed, Your Honour?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:

 5        Q.   Good morning, sir.  I'll have a few questions for you for the

 6     next few hours.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Just to start with a couple of things that are relatively fresh.

 9     In the binder you have in front of you, the procedural will be basically

10     the same, sir.  You have a binder of documents there.  I will give you a

11     number to refer to.

12             You were asked a number of questions yesterday about the use of

13     ABiH military or security services in connection with the collection of

14     taxes, and I'd like you to look please at Exhibit P 01410.  That will be

15     in the Prosecution binder.

16        A.   I need assistance to find the document.

17        Q.   If the usher could assist, please.  The numbers should be tabbed,

18     sir, should be in numerical order, I hope.

19             Sir, if you have this documents it is a 3 February 1993 order by

20     Bruno Stojic ordering HVO officers, Mr. Andabak, and Mr. Zdunic, to take

21     over the complete business documentation of these locations, these petrol

22     stations to ensure payment of sales tax, et cetera.  Copied among others

23     to Jadranko Prlic and Mr. Neven Tomic.  Isn't it correct, sir, that the

24     HVO and the HVO military services were used for the purposes of

25     collecting tax and revenue?

Page 33230

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Ms. Nozica is

 2     on her feet.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask my learned friend to

 4     tell us what he's referring to, which questions from the direct

 5     examination when putting this particular question.  I can't think of

 6     anything myself.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Well, Your Honour, if the Court will give me the time

 8     to go back to the record and do that.  It was very specifically put.  A

 9     question was put to the witness yesterday.  I'll have to go back and find

10     the document, very specifically put to this document -- to this witness

11     about that.  I'm absolutely sure of it because I read it last night.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.  Yes,

13     continue.

14             MR. KHAN:  Well, Your Honour, I do apologise.  Could we have the

15     reference?  Perhaps Ms. Winner, while Mr. Scott's on his feet, could

16     locate it.

17             MR. SCOTT:  Well, you know, Your Honour, we'll come back to it.

18     I think this is -- this is obstruction -- this is obstructive and

19     especially in light of the deference I've shown to counsel today, but be

20     that as it may, we'll come back to it if that's what we have to do.  I'm

21     quite -- I'm quite certain of the case.

22        Q.   Let me next ask you then go -- sir, if you can look in the binder

23     from today that you just were looking at a few moments ago from

24     Mr. Petkovic, 4D 00453.

25             Sir, you were asked -- you were shown this document a few moments

Page 33231

 1     ago, and I want to come back to it.  First off, do you see on the bottom

 2     of the page a certain block of information which the Chamber has seen

 3     before about the nature of communications, transmission?  Do you see it,

 4     sir?

 5        A.   You mean this stamp?

 6        Q.   Yes, sir.  And, Mr. Zelenika, I'll appreciate it greatly if you

 7     will proceed with the same efficiency and the same pace as you were able

 8     to proceed with answering the Defence questions because my time is

 9     limited as well.

10             So do you see, please, that stamp on the bottom of the page?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And have you seen documents like that or stamps like that before

13     on other documents during this time period?

14        A.   I have seen this stamp on some of the documents shown yesterday.

15        Q.   Have you -- looking to the text of the document where you were

16     telling us a few moments ago, just a few moments ago, that this was a

17     plea for help from the Konjic HVO, it talks about bringing troops from as

18     far away as Kiseljak, and the last -- next to -- or the last paragraph

19     "At the ready for the homeland," include Kiseljak in the Mount Ivan

20     sector.

21             Now, this Chamber has heard a lot of argument about the

22     communication between Herzegovina and Central Bosnia.  Could you tell us

23     exactly -- do you know -- and in your direct and cross-examinations you

24     seem to know a lot of everything.  How were how were these troops from

25     Kiseljak going to get all the way over to the Konjic area for the

Page 33232

 1     purposes of providing this support?

 2        A.   Esteemed Prosecutor, I cannot know that.  My knowledge, as you

 3     could see both during direct and during cross-examination, is related

 4     only to Jablanica and partially to Konjic.  As far as any further areas

 5     are concerned, I wasn't able to know anything.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Praljak?

 7             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is not

 8     about bringing units to Konjic but to the mountain -- Mount Ivan.  You

 9     could ask how far Mount Ivan is.  It's all about tying up the forces of

10     army of -- of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and relieving the

11     pressure on -- on these forces.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, for the record.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

14             MR. SCOTT:  [Overlapping speakers] That is nothing other than

15     pure testimony by Mr. Praljak.  It's not a legal objection.  It's

16     completely improper.

17        Q.   Sir, and how did you -- how would you understand that the HVO in

18     Konjic or in Mostar on these other places would communicate?  How would

19     they send a request to the Kiseljak HVO to take any action anywhere?

20        A.   I repeat:  From my introduction you could understand who I am.  I

21     am a civilian, and these questions and similar questions, such as

22     regarding communications inside the army, within the army, I cannot

23     answer.

24        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that, just a few moments ago, you were

25     only -- only too eager to answer questions about virtually anything put

Page 33233

 1     to you, including military history, social history, military tactics, the

 2     interpretation of military law on pensions.  You knew everything about

 3     everything, sir, and now you're taking a completely different path?

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I

 5     want to object.  This is not a question.  This is a statement.  It is not

 6     at all correct that the witness provided answers to any military

 7     technical issues because nobody asked explicitly technical military

 8     questions of this witness that would require service in the army or

 9     specialised knowledge.  All he knows is as a person who lived in the area

10     of Jablanica and the Konjic region concerning general developments.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott, you can

12     proceed, but the question about the stamp and the teleprinter, telegraph

13     and telephone, this is already quite technical.  Those questions are for

14     specialists.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I have completed my questions on that

16     particular aspect of it, but I do -- I do say I am putting my case to the

17     witness it terms of his credibility, and I can put that to the witness.

18     And I think it's very important and especially in light of some comments

19     that the Chamber made just a few minutes earlier today.

20        Q.   Now, sir, if we can go back to the Exhibit P 01410 which is the

21     document we were looking at earlier.

22             MR. SCOTT:  And for the courtroom, Mr. President, I will refer

23     the court to page 14 on the 14th of October, 2008, page 14, starting at

24     line 6 in which questions and answers were put to the witness about the

25     use of the ABiH to collect tax, and that's exactly what I was referring

Page 33234

 1     to earlier.

 2        Q.   Sir if you look at P 01410 you would agree with me, wouldn't you,

 3     that this was involving the use of the HVO military for the purpose of

 4     collecting tax or revenue?  Correct, sir?

 5        A.   Is it about what I see on the screen?

 6        Q.   Sir, I referred you a few moments to go to P 01410.  Do you have

 7     that document?  Perhaps the usher can assist us.  Or you can look on the

 8     screen if that's quicker, sir.

 9        A.   Sorry.  I'm sorry, I thought I heard it was 01, not 10 at the

10     end, but now I stand corrected.  I can answer.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me for one second.  I would appreciate it

12     if Mr. Scott would modulate his voice and take a different, you know,

13     approach.  I mean, he did skip around a little bit, and so at least until

14     the gentleman gets his bearings.  I do agree with Mr. Scott that the

15     witness will need to make a greater effort in trying to speed things up,

16     but I think in deference to the witness he -- there was some skipping

17     around.

18             MR. SCOTT:

19        Q.   Sir, for about the third time now, this is a document which

20     indicates an order by Bruno Stojic using the HVO military for the

21     purposes of collecting tax or revenue; correct?  Yes or no?  Yes or no,

22     sir?

23        A.   Dear sir, I cannot answer this question with a yes or no, but I

24     can tell you, if you wish.

25        Q.   Go ahead, sir.

Page 33235

 1        A.   I can say for the third time, you know that I'm a person from

 2     Jablanica, and I testified to the fact that the HVO in Jablanica never

 3     issued anything on paper about collecting tax anywhere.  This is a

 4     document I see for the first time, and my comment is that I cannot

 5     comment.

 6        Q.   You were also asked the question -- well, let's come back to that

 7     in a moment.  Excuse me.  We're going back to Jablanica then.  On the

 8     Crisis Staff, just to be very clear, and I know it's something we've

 9     talked about, but as best you can recall, when was the Crisis Staff first

10     established, actually established in Jablanica?

11        A.   The Crisis Staff of Jablanica municipality, I believe, was set up

12     on the 10th of May, 1992.

13        Q.   And how many original members were there on the 10th of May,

14     1992?

15        A.   Since I was not a member of the Crisis Staff at the time, I think

16     it was 10, up to 12, 13 people.

17        Q.   And do you know who initiated the establishment of the staff?  I

18     mean, how did it come about?  Was it put on the agenda of something?  I

19     mean, it didn't, obviously for everyone in the courtroom, it didn't drop

20     out of the air, so who initiated the establishment of the Crisis Staff,

21     if you recall?

22        A.   Well, I didn't have to know that in my position, but I believe

23     that followed from some law or regulation that applied at the time in

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... talking about persons, sir.

Page 33236

 1     What person initiated this action?  Someone had to put it on agenda.

 2     Someone had to raise it.  Again, it didn't drop out of the air.

 3        A.   Dear sir, I repeat:  At that time I was in a position at the time

 4     which did not require me to know who initiated this, and I didn't know.

 5        Q.   And, sir, you've told us that you were not a member of the HDZ

 6     party, but you performed your function in the Crisis Staff and then when

 7     it became the War Presidency you performed your functions as a nominee of

 8     the HDZ, didn't you?

 9        A.   Would you clarify the period, the time?

10        Q.   From approximately the 11th of May, 1992, until you left that

11     position, as you've told us, toward the end of October, early November

12     1992.

13        A.   Sir, on the 11th of May I was not a member of the Crisis Staff.

14     I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I really apologise.  On the 11th of May, yes, I

15     was.  That was in fact the first day.  On the 11th of May, I -- I was a

16     member of the Crisis Staff of Jablanica.  I thought it was the 13th when

17     I began.

18        Q.   And during that time, your tenure, sir, you performed your

19     functions as a nominee of the HDZ; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, before we go on on some of these other questions, let's -- I

22     think it might be helpful to go back to some -- some basic items here.

23     If I could ask -- I don't have all these because -- in hard copy in the

24     courtroom, Your Honour, but if we could use e-court for those purposes

25     for some of the maps, but for the record I'm referring to the Prosecution

Page 33237

 1     Exhibit P 09276, which the Chamber and others might recall is a book of

 2     maps that was distributed earlier in the case, and with the usher's

 3     assistance -- or the registry's assistance if we could show the witness

 4     map number 9 from book number 1 -- map book 1, which again is P 09276.

 5        A.   276.

 6        Q.   Map number 9, please.  Page 10 in e-court, I believe.  Sir, if

 7     you have that, and you can just look at it briefly.  This is a map which

 8     the Chamber has previously admitted into evidence titled "Ethnic

 9     composition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1991."  And if I can direct your

10     attention in particular, please, to Jablanica and Konjic municipalities.

11             You would agree with me, and I assume, sir, you have knowledge of

12     this, that both Jablanica and Konjic were by a substantial measure Muslim

13     majority municipalities?

14        A.   Right.

15        Q.   And if you go to map number 25 in this same book, please, which I

16     believe would be e-court page 26.  There's a graph on the top of that

17     page, sir, and would you agree with me that again I'm not even -- the

18     percentage -- if I read the bar graph approximately, that in 1991 the

19     Muslims represented approximately 80 per cent of the population of

20     Jablanica municipality?

21        A.   According to the 1991 census, they accounted for 70 per cent of

22     the population of Jablanica.

23        Q.   I think to be exact, it was 72 per cent Muslim and 18 per cent

24     Croat; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 33238

 1        Q.   So not a majority Muslim just by a percentage or two, but in

 2     contrast 72 per cent Muslim versus 18 per cent Croat; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Now, when Mr. Karnavas asked you yesterday whether the Croatian

 5     Community of Herceg-Bosna or the HVO or any of these other entities that

 6     we talk about had ever carved any territory out of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     you said no.  And, sir, that's not really correct, is it?

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, that's a mischaracterisation of the

 9     question.  It had to do with Jablanica.  We're speaking of Jablanica.

10     The Prosecution's case is that throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina the

11     Croatian Community is some sort of a map that you can draw around.  We're

12     trying to show that there are various communities.  Here is just what --

13     one example.  When we got to Gornji Vakuf, Uskoplje, we see something

14     very similar.  So if the gentleman wishes to pose questions, I would ask

15     that they're based on the factual predicates which are in the record,

16     that he not mischaracterise the record, that he not try to trick the

17     witness, and that he be a little more respectful.  Thank you.

18             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, there's no basis for any of that.  I

19     will find -- if I -- I'm going to need more time than four hours if I

20     have to find any citation.  This is not the way we've normally conducted

21     business.  I will be happy to find it.  When I'm listening to direct

22     examination, I take copious notes.  I read them at night and I prepare my

23     cross-examination, and I prepare them based exactly on what has been

24     covered in court, and I have no doubt this matter was covered.

25             MR. STEWART:  It's not that difficult to find.  It's at 33007 to

Page 33239

 1     33008 where we find the precise question.  So the issue between

 2     Mr. Karnavas and Mr. Scott I think can be resolved by specific reference

 3     to that.

 4             While I'm on my feet on this we had a reference few minutes ago,

 5     but just a practical thing.  It's a hobby horse of mine, but since the

 6     transcripts are available now in the fully numbered version if an

 7     exercise is being done as it was a few minutes ago to find the reference

 8     it would be helpful to have that reference than page 14, and I believe

 9     it's just as easy to find the full numbered reference as it is to find

10     the temporary one.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, first of all, I'm grateful for

12     Mr. Stewart for the citation reference.  As to the practice of page

13     numbers, Your Honour, Your Honours know we get a daily transcript.  I

14     have to prepare.  I don't wait for the next day.  I would like a little

15     latitude at being able to conduct my cross-examination to the best of my

16     ability, and you know, Mr. Karnavas is always saying how he stays up all

17     night to do -- well, I do the same thing, and I do the best I can using

18     the best available materials to me, and it may not be perfect, but I had

19     a-appreciate the opportunity to conduct my cross-examination.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

21             MR. SCOTT:

22        Q.   Sir, let me put it to you that in fact Herceg-Bosna did claim

23     territory on the territory of the sovereign State of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24     didn't it?

25        A.   Absolutely not.

Page 33240

 1        Q.   Please look -- direct your attention, sir, in the binder to

 2     P 0079.  P 0079.  It's not -- all right.  Can we have it on e-court,

 3     please.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  And again, Your Honour, this directly flows from the

 5     necessity to continually adjust to cross-examination on a short basis

 6     documents that become relevant in the course of the questioning, and

 7     therefore cannot be put in a binder on the weekend.

 8        Q.   Sir, if you have P 0079.  My apologies that it wasn't in the

 9     binder, but if you look on the screen, please.  That is document that

10     everyone in the courtroom, I think, is quite familiar with.  The

11     establishment of the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna on the

12     18th of November, 1991.

13             Can I direct your attention, please, to Article number 2 where it

14     says:  "The territories of the following municipalities shall comprise

15     the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna," and you will see a list of

16     territories and in that list, I believe you'll see, sir, don't you, the

17     municipalities of Konjic and Jablanica?

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  It says areas, not territories, and I think

19     there's a vast distinction.

20             MR. SCOTT:

21        Q.   Sir, do you see a list of municipalities in Article 2 which is

22     stated as "shall comprise the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna"?  You

23     don't see that language, sir?

24        A.   I can see that.

25        Q.   And if I can ask you, please, to go to the map book again which

Page 33241

 1     we looked at before, P 09276.  Map number 3.  Page 4 in e-court.

 2             Does that map not indicate, sir, by blue colouring and an

 3     exterior dark blue border the borders of the municipalities listed in

 4     Article 2 of Exhibit P 00079?  Yes?

 5        A.   Well, I cannot count all these municipalities and compare them.

 6     That would take some time.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I see Jablanica.

 9        Q.   And you see Konjic?

10        A.   I do.  I see Konjic.

11        Q.   Can I ask the witness -- the question of the flags came up.  Can

12     I ask the witness to be shown it again for reasons cited previously, it

13     may not be in the binder.  If I can have the assistance of e-court --

14     perhaps it is in the binder.  P 09520.  P 09520.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  While we're on the map, Your Honour, perhaps he

16     could ask the gentleman to carve out where exactly within the

17     municipality of Jablanica or Konjic, if he knows, was the Croatian

18     Community of Herceg-Bosna.  You're shaking your head, Judge Trechsel, but

19     if you recall, there was copious questioning about this.  To have a map

20     that was designed by the Prosecution to show that because there is a

21     statutory decision that says areas and now to put it into some kind of

22     framework and then say, well, it's in there, isn't, therefore we've

23     proved our point is not in my opinion evidence of which this Trial

24     Chamber can or should rely on, rather, he can ask the gentleman to point

25     out exactly where, in what part, there was within the Jablanica

Page 33242

 1     municipality a carved-out area, or whether it's the entire area, because

 2     that's the purpose of this cross-examination, and to show these documents

 3     is simply a waste of time.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Well, I disagree, Your Honour, and counsel can

 5     conduct his re-examination if he so wishes.  I will conduct my

 6     cross-examination.

 7        Q.   Sir, if you can look at P 09520.  That is the flag of the

 8     Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.

10             MR. SCOTT:

11        Q.   That is the flag of the Republic of Croatia; correct?  P 09520.

12     It should be on the screen.  If anybody can't see it, I don't know why

13     that's so difficult.  Is that the flag of the Republic of Croatia?

14        A.   This is not the map of the republic of the Croatia.

15        Q.   Not the map the flag, sir?

16        A.   Yes, it is the flag of the Public of Croatia.

17        Q.   And can I nest ask you to look at P 09523.  If it's easier to

18     look at e-court, let's do that for the time being hopefully save a little

19     bit of time.  Sir, is P 09523 the flag or a flag of the Croatian

20     Community of Herceg-Bosna?

21        A.   This is a flag of the Croatian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22        Q.   And in some instances is it fair to say, sir, that the map -- the

23     two -- excuse me for saying that, the flags, that the flags are, in fact,

24     often even more similar and that in some of the Herceg-Bosna flags, the

25     shape of the shield, if you will, is the identical same shape as that of

Page 33243

 1     the Croatian flag?  Sir, correct?

 2        A.   Again you're talking about Herceg-Bosna, sir.  I told you this

 3     was the flag of the Croatian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's why I

 4     can't answer yes.

 5        Q.   I see.  Would you agree with me, sir, that that flag of the

 6     Croatian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina is often even more similar to

 7     the -- to the Republic of Croatia flag and that the shape of the shields,

 8     if you will, are identical in at least some versions of that flag?

 9        A.   I don't know.  Maybe I bear a certain amount of physical likeness

10     to another person that goes under a different name.

11        Q.   Sir, it appears from various prior statements that you've given

12     that we can agree that in April 1992 a joint Muslim-Croat War Presidency

13     was established in Jablanica and there is no question about the, if you

14     will, the legality or the legitimacy of the crisis -- the Crisis Staff at

15     that time which then became the War Presidency in Jablanica municipality;

16     correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And in terms of the relationship between the Croats and Muslims

19     in Jablanica during this time period, I want to refer you to an earlier

20     statement you made in 1996 and confirm, presumably, that you still

21     believe that statement to be accurate.  On the 13th of June, 1996, you

22     gave a statement in which you said -- in which you divided the operations

23     of the War Presidency into three different periods.  First from its

24     establishment, which in that statement was April 1992.  I'm happy to

25     amend that based on your testimony to May.  But from its establishment to

Page 33244

 1     November 1992.  This period is marked by the collaboration between the

 2     representatives of the Muslim and Croatian communities despite the fact

 3     that Serbs had been sidelined.

 4             Do you agree with that, that during that period, April to

 5     November 1992, the relationship between the Muslims and Croatian

 6     Community according to your statement in 1996 was that it was basically

 7     collaborative?

 8        A.   I can agree with that, yes.

 9        Q.   You said that the second period which you set from November 1992

10     until the appointment of Mr. Cibo around mid-March 1993, that during that

11     period the Croats were no longer represented within the Presidency but

12     the relations between the two communities remained good; correct?

13        A.   Not quite.  The Croats were in there for only two meetings of the

14     War Presidency throughout that period and then they continued to take

15     part until Cibo arrival.

16        Q.   So the answer to my question is, yes, that's correct.  The Croat,

17     you said, in 1996 the Croats were no loner represented.  You've now said,

18     okay, they attended two meetings but their relationships between the two

19     communities remained good?

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Correction.  He said that they did not attend two

21     meetings, but then they came back.  That's what the gentleman indicated.

22             MR. SCOTT:  That's correct, thank you, Counsel.

23        Q.   And, sir, you said the third period which you began that period,

24     if you will, with the appointment of Mr. Cibo and in this third period

25     beginning with the appointment of Mr. Cibo and continuing, you said that

Page 33245

 1     was the period of conflict between the Muslims and Croats; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   That was a conflict between the BH army and the HVO.

 4        Q.   Now the first president of the War Presidency was Mr. Sefer Hamdo

 5     until the 10th of June, 1992, and Mr. Hamdo was the -- excuse me --

 6     followed by Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic.  And forgive me if I haven't pronounced

 7     those correctly, but is that right?  Those were the first two presidents

 8     of the War Presidency?

 9        A.   Yes.  Your pronunciation is good.  And these were the first two

10     presidents of the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency, if you like.

11        Q.   And it may be obvious for some in the courtroom, but for the

12     purposes of the record, both of those men were Muslims?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   And I take it there is no disagreement that -- or no issue that

15     Mr. Ivkovic, for example, his -- his tenure -- his appointment and tenure

16     as president of the War Presidency was completely proper and legitimate?

17        A.   No disagreement.

18        Q.   And of course a significant majority of the Jablanica municipal

19     government authorities was comprised of Muslims; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And again going back to what we were looking at earlier the map,

22     the demographic information that we discussed a few minutes ago, that's

23     not really surprising, is it, given the fact that Jablanica municipality

24     was 72 per cent Muslim; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 33246

 1        Q.   Now, the outcome of the 1990 elections in Jablanica municipality

 2     were at least approximately the following:  The SDA received 15 seats.

 3     The HDZ received 7 seats.  The Serb party at the time -- at the time in

 4     1991, obtained 6 seats, and then there was some other smaller parties,

 5     the reform party, received 2 seats et cetera.  Is that generally

 6     consistent, sir, with your memory of the outcome of the 1990 elections

 7     for our purposes the primary focus being that the SDA won 15 and the HDZ

 8     approximately 7?

 9        A.   I'm unable to agree with this.  The Serb party did not get a

10     single vote, the simple reason being back in 1990 at the Jablanica

11     election, there was no Serb party involved.

12        Q.   Forgive me if I misspoke.  It might have been my mistake.  The

13     SDA received 15 and the HDZ approximately 7; is that correct?  Is that

14     correct, sir?

15        A.   Yes, that seems to be correct.

16        Q.   And some testimony came up, I don't know if it was the first or

17     second day at this point, but it came up several times, and you were

18     talking about an 80 per cent, 20 per cent split or apportionment, for

19     example, on certain things concerning the division of goods or supplies

20     or what have you, just a general example, for the ABiH would get 80 per

21     cent and the HVO would get 20 per cent.  Now, can we start with -- do you

22     remember that?

23        A.   This was something that was agreed in principle, but it was never

24     something that was actually carried out.

25        Q.   And did that -- did that principle or this division arise or come

Page 33247

 1     at least in part out of the fact again of these two pieces of information

 2     we've talked about in the last few minutes, that is that the Muslims had

 3     72 per cent of the population in the municipality and had won substantial

 4     majority of the seats in the 1990 elections and flowing from all that, an

 5     80/20 split seemed about right.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   I wasn't involved myself, and I don't know what exactly the

 7     people who made that proposal bore in mind at the time and what their

 8     principal ideas were.

 9        Q.   Would you agree with me that that split roughly corresponds to

10     the data we've looked at in the last few minutes?

11        A.   The division of logistical support, is that what you mean?

12        Q.   This 20 -- this 80 per cent, 20 per cent apportionment, sir, that

13     you testified about in direct examination.

14        A.   That was only in reference to logistical support for the armed

15     forces, the HVO and the Muslim armed forces.  That is the 80/20 split

16     that you're talking about.

17        Q.   Mr. Karnavas showed you a series of exhibits, and I'm not going

18     to go to them all.  I'm not going to take you through the content of

19     them, but just for the record, and again so hopefully I can avoid being

20     questioned about it.  I refer to the record, for example, to 1D 01447,

21     1D 01448, 1D 00960.  And I'll represent to you, sir, and I'm sure as

22     we've already seen this morning, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm

23     wrong.  These are documents that Mr. Karnavas showed to you that talked

24     about efforts to I'll say retain resources and people in Jablanica.  Stay

25     here.  Don't go elsewhere.  We need people.  We need the supplies to

Page 33248

 1     remain in Jablanica municipality.  And this was all during the spring and

 2     summer of 1992.  You generally recall that topic and those documents

 3     being shown to you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And, sir, wouldn't you agree with me that those were completely

 6     logical and prudent steps for the municipality to take during a time in

 7     which everybody agrees it was a time of crisis, hence the term Crisis

 8     Staff, to maintain and marshall and manage its resources to the best of

 9     its ability?  Isn't that a completely wise decision?

10        A.   It was the right decision.

11        Q.   Now, in connection with the HVO military aspects of these events,

12     isn't it correct, sir, that throughout this period, from April, May 1992

13     until even the end of 1992, the Jablanica authorities, the ones we've

14     been talking about this morning, were trying to bring -- repeatedly tried

15     to bring the HVO military into a unified, unified defence system with

16     other military forces, such as the new BiH Territorial Defence or TO

17     which had been established in April of 1992, the Patriotic League.  The

18     repeated efforts by the Jablanica authorities to bring HVO been the same

19     unified defence system; correct?

20        A.   Not correct.  What is correct is this:  The HVO wanted to be

21     treated as an equal defence component, and you talked about it being

22     brought under something.  It's not that it was being brought under

23     something.  All we wanted from the outset was for it to be treated as an

24     equal defence component, same as the Green Berets, the Patriotic League,

25     and the Territorial Defence.  It wasn't a question of the HVO being

Page 33249

 1     brought under something, rather.

 2        Q.   Wasn't it the reality, sir, that the HVO was engaged in just

 3     exactly the opposite throughout this time period, and that was not only

 4     to not become part of the unified defence system but to assert HVO

 5     supremacy over all the other armed forces in the area, including

 6     Jablanica?

 7        A.   First I hear of it.  Hear from you today.

 8        Q.   Well, let's look at Exhibit P 00186 in the binder.  My binder.

 9     Not that one.

10             MR. SCOTT:  If we could have the usher's assistance, please.  He

11     has the Petkovic binder there.  That may cause confusion.  If we could

12     put the other one away.

13        Q.   P 00186.  First document.

14             Sir, that is decision by the Jablanica Municipal Council on the

15     6th of May, 1992, by the president, a man -- the man we mentioned -- one

16     of the men we mentioned a few minutes ago saying, among other things, the

17     decision is "in the territory of Jablanica municipality, a joint system

18     of defence has been organised that shall include the Territorial Defence

19     forces, the Croatian Defence Council, the Green Berets, and all others

20     that will subordinate themselves to the single command of the Jablanica

21     Territorial Defence."

22             Now, as someone who was involved in Jablanica political matters

23     and these affairs around this time, you certainly saw or were aware of

24     this document, weren't you, sir?

25        A.   As a matter of fact, I was not involved in political matters as

Page 33250

 1     you suggest.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the

 3     witness's answer.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   Can you repeat or rephrase your answer, sir, because the

 6     interpretation -- interpreters could not -- did not get it.

 7        A.   I did not have any political involvement because I think that's

 8     what you suggested firstly.  Secondly, I was not a member of the Crisis

 9     Staff on the 6th of May, 1992.  Therefore, I don't know what the Crisis

10     Staff wanted to say when phrasing its decision.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in the second

12     paragraph it seems that there's going to be a public communique.

13     Therefore, this decision is going to be made known to all the residents.

14     You were one of the residents, weren't you, at the time?  So you were not

15     made aware of this as a simple citizen?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  As an

17     ordinary citizen.  I wasn't a military man myself, but I was not aware of

18     this.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there was no communique,

20     because here it is said that there's going to be one.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all documents such as

22     decisions or orders, not all of them were published, just those that were

23     titled announcement, proclamation, declaration or something like that.

24     These were broadcast over the local cable TV.  But documents of this

25     nature would not be published.  As an ordinary citizen living in

Page 33251

 1     Jablanica at the time, I did not have occasion to read this.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, maybe the translation is not correct.

 3     That happens sometimes.  In the English text it has -- it says that

 4     citizens of Jablanica have been informed, have been informed.  Not fall

 5     -- to be should, will eventually, have been informed.  Maybe the text in

 6     Croatian says something different, but if it says the same thing your

 7     answer is really not convincing.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that that's what

 9     it says, but that's not necessarily the case.  It says here that

10     everything was published, but that wasn't necessarily the case.

11     Sometimes things weren't published that were expressly meant to be

12     published.  I'm not saying that this wasn't published.  I'm saying I

13     never saw it published.  Anyway, we can't assume that I knew everything

14     that was going on at the time.

15             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] What Judge Trechsel had said about

16     had been informed the Croatian says this decision actually takes effect

17     as of now and the Jablanica population is to be informed by a public

18     communique.  So this is something that would follow, whereas in the

19     English we see the perfect tense.  It follows that we don't know whether

20     it was, in fact, published or not.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, would you mind reading

23     this second paragraph so that the interpreters can translate that.

24     Please read it out, because there seems to be a problem in the

25     translation.  Please read out.

Page 33252

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph 2, Your Honours?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "This decision takes effect

 4     immediately.  The population of Jablanica shall be familiarised with this

 5     decision by a public announcement."

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the French translation it's

 8     not quite the same.  I believe the interpreter knows B/C/S, and it says:

 9     "And to make it public to the population, to make it known to the

10     population by way of a communique."

11             So in the French translation, it means that this text is to be

12     made known.  So it's not known yet.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  It's even clearer in the English.  It absolutely

14     says "shall secure," and that is not at all what the translation says.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, please proceed.

16             MR. SCOTT:

17        Q.   Sir, be that as all these wrinkles that we've talked about in the

18     last few minutes, be that what they may or may not be, this is the 6th of

19     May, 1992, and you've told us that at least by five days later, on the

20     11th of May, 1992, and then continuing on until at least the end of

21     October 1992, you were a member of the War Presidency in one fashion or

22     another.  Are you telling the Chamber that you did not -- you were not

23     aware of efforts by the Presidency during that time period to bring the

24     HVO military within a joint system of defence as in concept outlined

25     here?

Page 33253

 1        A.   Sir, Mr. Prosecutor, I have to repeat this.  I don't like this

 2     term that you keep using, the HVO being brought under something.  It

 3     simply is what it is.  It is as it is, and it already is.  It is a

 4     component, and it is a component of the joint system of defence or the

 5     joint armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Well, sir, answer me this:  How can it be a component of

 7     something the HVO declared to be illegal?

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Perhaps he can point to where is it that in

 9     Jablanica the HVO declared something illegal like the Territorial

10     Defence, because we're talking about Jablanica.  That is very discrete

11     area.  I understand what the Prosecution is doing.  I just didn't fall

12     off the apple cart.  I understand the technique, but this is the wrong

13     person to use this technique with, because we -- the whole testimony was

14     about what is happening in Jablanica, just like we're going to have

15     somebody who's going to testify about Gornji Vakuf.  So let's restrict

16     the questioning to this area.  What was happening elsewhere, we could do

17     that with others.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, my question stands.  Counsel, I'll

20     conduct my cross-examination.  If it becomes -- if this witness tells the

21     Chamber that he was sitting isolated in Jablanica and did not know what

22     the HVO -- what was happening in the HVO structures, in the HDZ, in --

23     coming out of Mostar, if he tells the Chamber he doesn't know anything

24     about any of that, then that's one thing, but that -- I don't think

25     that's the case.

Page 33254

 1        Q.   Sir, if you will look, please, next to 5D -- it's the last

 2     document in the binder.  5D 04271.  5D 04271.  Sir, this is an order by

 3     Mate Boban dated the 10th of April, 1992, converting all Crisis Staffs

 4     and municipal Territorial Defences -- staffs, et cetera, to the HVO, the

 5     Croatian Defence Council, and stating in paragraph 2 that these shall all

 6     be subordinated to the HVO Main Staff.

 7             Now, you knew that was the position of the HVO in the spring of

 8     1992, didn't you?

 9        A.   Again I was no military man myself.  I've never seen this before.

10     I don't know anything about what you are asking me about.

11        Q.   So when you were sitting on the Presidency of the Jablanica

12     municipality during the period May to end of October 1992, you're telling

13     these Judges that the topic of the defence of Jablanica and the roles of

14     the HVO and the roles of the ABiH and these other -- other -- potential

15     other groups, that was not a topic of -- of conversation or meeting or

16     discussion?

17        A.   Yes, this was often discussed at these meetings, regularly I

18     might say.

19        Q.   Can I ask you please to next look at Exhibit P 00195, which

20     should be the second document in the binder, sir, if that will assist

21     you.  P 00195.

22             This is an order from the HVO Main Staff by someone named

23     Ante Roso, declaring on the 8th of May, 1992, three days before you say

24     you became a member of the Presidency that:

25             Number 1:  "The only legal military units in the territory of the

Page 33255

 1     HZ HB are units of the HVO."

 2             Number 2:  "HVO Main Staff is their Supreme Command."  Every

 3     member of the above military units must be HVO insignia ..."

 4             Item 4:  "This order supersedes all orders of the Territorial

 5     Defence command which shall be considered illegal in this territory."

 6             Now, again did you not know what the position of Mate Boban and

 7     Mr. Roso and the HVO Main Staff and the HVO main government was during

 8     that time period?

 9        A.   I had no idea what the position was of Mate Boban or

10     General Roso, and I can repeat for the hundredth time, I was not a

11     military man in that period, and I didn't know anything.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

13             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, for your information --

14     [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'll speak Croatian.

15             For your information, this document was refused for admission by

16     your decision of the 17th of July.  I think it was the signature that was

17     in dispute.  And this whole document should be considered with some

18     reservations.

19             I'm saying this now because I did not want to influence the

20     answer of the witness.  And we're wondering about the provenance of this

21     document.  It does not bear the normal stamp of the Croatian archives.

22     We don't know where the Prosecution got it.  And especially controversial

23     is the signature, because it was added in handwriting.  "General Ante

24     Roso," everything is handwritten.  It's not clear who signed this.  And

25     we dispute the whole signature and the document as such.

Page 33256

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, regardless of this

 2     document, and thank you, Mr. Kovacic, for reminding us that this document

 3     had not been admitted, but apart from that, during the

 4     examination-in-chief, I understood that you did have some municipal

 5     duties.  You were for a time president of the municipality.

 6             During that period a series of events took place, not only in

 7     Jablanica, also elsewhere.  You might be right.  You say, "Well, I wasn't

 8     aware of that."  Fine.  That's quite possible.  However, when you have

 9     events that really affect Jablanica proper, it may seem surprising that

10     you weren't aware of certain things.  That's the source of our amazement.

11     Also as an ordinary citizen because a citizen knows at least what happens

12     -- what's happening.

13             What do you have to say to that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can say this:  The

15     documents so far presented to me when I was asked to give a comment, some

16     of them were written in Mostar.  This particular one was written in

17     Grude.  But basically they are military documents.  Even those written in

18     Jablanica, if they are military in nature, I cannot know all about them.

19     And especially those written in Grude and in Mostar.  If they are

20     strictly military documents, then I really don't know anything about

21     them.  And even if you present me with another hundred of this kind, I'll

22     be only able to say I don't know anything.  And, Your Honours, I was head

23     of the local municipal government for a very definite period of time.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say that you were

25     head, but that you had the title of -- of president, but when you are a

Page 33257

 1     president, you're not necessarily the chief.  Best proof is that when you

 2     preside a Trial Chamber, you're not the chief of it.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Scott.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  I'd love to follow up that with questions, but in any

 5     event.

 6        Q.   Sir, if -- let me direct your attention, and your answer just

 7     now, let me just point out to you is itself relevant to the Chamber,

 8     because in reference to the evidence you've given so far the fact that

 9     you say you now know very little about what happened in Jablanica on a

10     military basis, the Chamber will certainly take that into consideration,

11     but let me ask you about this:  Do you recall that in July 1992 there

12     were ongoing attempts to incorporate for the MUP, the M-U-P, the MUP as

13     we call it, of Herceg-Bosna to take over and incorporate the Jablanica

14     MUP?

15        A.   In July 1992 there were no attempts whatsoever to incorporate the

16     Jablanica MUP into the MUP of Herceg-Bosna.

17        Q.   Would you please go next to P 00321, which should be the fourth

18     document in your binder, please.  P 00321.

19             Sir, this is a communication coming from the Jablanica

20     municipality, Territorial Defence Staff, dated the 12th of July, 1992,

21     addressed to Croatian Defence Council Jablanica, subject formation of

22     joint Staff Command notification.

23             And again talking about -- I'll put it to you again without

24     reading the entire document, again a discussion of the unified defence

25     system, and among things saying in point 2:  "The newly formed Staff

Page 33258

 1     Command of the armed forces shall fight for a sovereign, single, civil

 2     and inseparable Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, shall respect and

 3     carry out only the orders issued by the Supreme Command and the Main

 4     Staff of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 5             Now, despite whatever else you've said up until now, can you

 6     assist the Chamber at all with the reaction of the HVO in Jablanica to

 7     this communication?  Either specifically or in general, sir.  Something

 8     that was discussed at the time, was talked about in the community,

 9     because once again, sir, when you gave your testimony previously, you

10     were quite -- quite more expansive than the information you provided to

11     us.

12        A.   I'm seeing this document for the first time, but I do know both

13     as a member of the Crisis Staff and a member of the War Presidency that

14     both the HVO and TO always informed these sessions that cooperation was

15     good, but there were remaining logistical problems because the HVO

16     sometimes got nothing, sometimes got less than what had been agreed.  And

17     as far as these military obligations were concerned, preparation,

18     training, going out into the field, all that was very good.  That's what

19     I remember from the reports we got at the sessions of the War Presidency

20     and the Crisis Staff.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, looking at the clock, this might be

22     the time for the break I see.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was so fascinated by

24     the document that I lost track of time.

25             It's 12.30.  Let's break for 20 minutes.

Page 33259

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   Sir, if you can next turn in the binder to Exhibit 27 --

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Scott.  I have still a question

 7     to the witness with regard to the last document we have looked at.  That

 8     was P 00321.

 9             At that time, 12 July 1992, would you be so kind as to recall

10     your function at that time?  In Jablanica, of course.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this time, on this

12     date indicated here, I was the president of the Executive Board of

13     Jablanica municipality, and ex officio I was member of the War

14     Presidency.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You were a member of the War Presidency, weren't

16     you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And did you -- did you see to whom this letter

19     was addressed by -- by Major Salihamidzic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the name is

21     Zijad Salihamidzic.  I'm seeing this letter for the first time but --

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, it was addressed to the War Presidency,

23     and I must say that it's a bit surprising that you as a member should not

24     have seen it.  A copy goes to the War Presidency.  But you're sure you

25     didn't look at that mail that came in in copies?  You left that all to

Page 33260

 1     someone else, or how did this -- how did you do the job?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me, I'll

 3     explain very briefly.  The War Presidency operated in this way:  The

 4     president of the War Presidency convened sessions, and all the background

 5     material, all the documents, including this one, when they arrived before

 6     the War Presidency, the president chairing the meeting would choose in

 7     what form, in what way he would inform the War Presidency.  So in my

 8     particular case it should not be understood that the president of the War

 9     Presidency brought this paper and read it out to us.  He certainly

10     didn't, and he certainly didn't read it.  And the War Presidency didn't

11     work that way.  If he had read it out to us, if I had attended the

12     session, I would have had to remember this, but I don't remember that.  I

13     don't remember that he brought the paper and read it.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

15             MR. SCOTT:

16        Q.   Sir, if you can next go please to Exhibit P 00273.  This is an

17     order from Mate Boban, dated the 20th of June, 1992, addressed to

18     Jablanica.  273.  00273.

19             This is an order by Mate Boban.  In the second paragraph he says:

20     "I prohibit the HVO Jablanica Municipal Staff to issue any kind of

21     certificates authorising exit or passage through the Croatian Community

22     of Herceg-Bosna to people who reside permanently outside of the Jablanica

23     municipality."

24             Now, did this direction from Mr. Boban come to your attention any

25     time during the summer of 1992?

Page 33261

 1        A.   As far as military certificates are concerned, I had nothing to

 2     do with them, and I never saw them, but I heard something related

 3     precisely to the second paragraph of this letter.  Namely, I heard it was

 4     prohibited to issue them to people outside the area of Jablanica

 5     municipality.  In other words, people who simply happened to be in

 6     Jablanica municipality and wanted these certificates to be issued to

 7     them.  I really don't know for what reason they were not eligible.

 8        Q.   The third paragraph references a man named Ivan Rogic.  Who was

 9     Mr. Rogic, and what position did he have in -- on the 20th of June, 1992,

10     in Jablanica?

11        A.   At this time Mr. Ivan Rogic was the president of the HDZ in

12     Jablanica municipality.

13        Q.   So you're saying that in this instance, it was the party

14     president who could actually issue such documents; is that right?

15        A.   I don't know.  I told you I had nothing to do with the

16     certificates.

17        Q.   And Mr. Rogic is the man who succeeded you as -- when you left

18     the council or the Presidency at the end of October 1992; is that

19     correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And can you tell us on what authority Mate Boban issued this

22     order to the Jablanica municipal HVO staff?

23        A.   I can't say that.

24        Q.   You have no basis -- you have no knowledge of any basis for

25     Mr. Boban to issue this.  Is that what you're saying?

Page 33262

 1        A.   Right.

 2        Q.   Let's go to Exhibit P 00505.  It should be the fifth document in

 3     your binder.  P 00505.  The B/C/S version will be behind it, sir.  You'll

 4     see that.  There's an English translation, and if you look behind, I

 5     believe you'll see the -- there you go.

 6             Sir, did you become familiar at any time with the Constitutional

 7     Court decision, and just so you know I'm proceeding chronologically in

 8     the documents I'm showing you, and now we've come to the 18th of

 9     September, 1992.  Did you become aware during this -- around this time

10     that the Constitutional Court had issued a decision declaring the

11     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna illegal or unconstitutional?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you ever at any time here of this decision, or is this

14     something you never knew anything about, never heard of before?

15        A.   Well, this is another thing that I can honestly say I never heard

16     of.

17        Q.   This was not something that was discussed by members of the

18     Presidency when you were still a member of that body in the fall of 1992

19     after the 18th of September 1992?  It wasn't a topic of discussion that

20     the Constitutional Court had declared Herceg-Bosna illegal?  It was never

21     discussed?

22        A.   No, absolutely never was it discussed at the sessions in

23     Jablanica municipality that I attended.  We never discussed this decision

24     of the Constitutional Court.

25        Q.   That's interesting in line with one of the documents we looked at

Page 33263

 1     earlier today.  If I can ask the witness please be provided again the

 2     Petkovic binder.  I direct the courtroom's attention in the Petkovic

 3     binder that we had earlier today to Exhibit 4D 00454.

 4             Sir, this is a document that you looked at before, so you've

 5     already been asked questions about it.  Interestingly enough, on the

 6     second page of the English version I -- I'll try to help you as much as I

 7     can with the other, with the B/C/S version.  I think from what I can see

 8     it should also be on the second page of the Croatian version.

 9             In this meeting in which these actions of the BiH armed forces

10     are discussed, interestingly enough it says:  "Proceeding from the

11     indicated as well as the resolution of the Constitutional Court of the

12     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the annulment of all regulations on the

13     establishment of the so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna," et

14     cetera, which if you hadn't heard of it, apparently these people had.

15             And let me ask you flowing from that the questions that were put

16     to you on that document in terms of there being actions, plans to take

17     over territories in Jablanica and Konjic.  Sir, it's correct, is it not,

18     that on the 20th of March, 1993, all of the territory of Jablanica

19     municipality belonged to the internationally recognised State of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?  All of it.

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And all of the territory of Konjic municipality belonged to the

23     internationally recognised sovereign state of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

24     correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 33264

 1        Q.   So in terms of the military having any plans to either retain or

 2     regain control over that territory, would you agree with me, sir, that

 3     it's the -- it's usually the practice of most states to seek to maintain

 4     and, if necessary, recover its state territory?

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I'd

 6     like to object to this question.  This question presupposes that the army

 7     of Bosnia and Herzegovina was an army that represented the state of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina, meaning all its three constituent peoples.  I

 9     believe that it has been proven in these proceedings that three

10     constituent peoples existed and each of them had its own army.  So I

11     object to this question because of the implication it contains, and I

12     suggest my learned friend Mr. Scott reformulates this -- his question by

13     saying whether the army of one entity has the right to liberate "other

14     areas belonging to other entities."

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

16     continues] ... the question, but you oppose it, you object because your

17     argument is different, but the Prosecutor has another argument.  So the

18     Prosecution develops his argument, and you are developing this.  You

19     can't prevent the Prosecutor developing his arguments by an objection.

20     Now, the Judges will see who is right, but for the moment let the

21     Prosecution ask his question and the witness answer or doesn't answer,

22     and eventually you may come back on this point when the time comes.  At

23     this stage I think this is premature to try and prohibit the Prosecutor

24     to develop his argument.  All he needs to do is sit down and wait until

25     Defence will speak on its own and alone.

Page 33265

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may, just for one second.  I don't -- I take

 2     the Court's observations and ruling, and I don't know whether the last

 3     question from the Prosecution stems from this particular document.  I do

 4     find, however, the manner in questioning to be improper.  He was asked

 5     about when he was sitting as president -- when he was participating in

 6     the War Presidency or was in the Crisis Staff.  We already know that

 7     period of time.  He gave an answer.  He was then shown a document that

 8     obviously he was not a participant during those meetings but also the

 9     date is 20 March 1993, and of course what is happening in this particular

10     meeting that is -- on this particular date, you know, they may be

11     discussing something, but I don't see how you can connect this document

12     with his previous answer.  And so in that -- in that way I do object to

13     the manner of this sort of cross-examination.  I'm hopeful that this is

14     not being lost on the Trial Chamber, that, you know, you can't be showing

15     a document much later, where he's not a participate, where it's being

16     generated by other institutions and then use that as a basis for somehow

17     linking it to whether he had prior knowledge.  It's just -- it doesn't

18     flow.  And I would welcome the opportunity to debate the point with any

19     member of the Trial Chamber if they feel that there is a need to take

20     exception to what I'm saying.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, on the question

22     of timing, certainly it shows a real problem.  Either he took part in the

23     meeting and then he can speak about it, in particular the meeting on the

24     28th of March, 1993, or he wasn't present.  So to integrate your

25     question, try and integrate it within the field of the question in

Page 33266

 1     general.

 2             MR. SCOTT:  Well, let me respond in general before I proceed, and

 3     that is -- I mean, I think this further illustrates the dramatic

 4     differences we're seeing with this witness on cross-exam -- what's real

 5     cross-examination and direct examination, and this document, the very

 6     document that was put to the witness with this date, dated the 28th of

 7     March, put to him by the Petkovic defence and asked questions about it.

 8     So how can it be out of time for the Prosecution but not out of time for

 9     the Petkovic defence?  Absolutely.  But specific questions about this

10     document and the interpretations of it.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  The problem, Your Honour, is this:  I'm not

12     suggesting that he cannot use the document.  That's not my point.  My

13     point is, the question is whether he -- whether this matter was discussed

14     while he was a member of the War Presidency, during that period.  So now

15     we have to put it within that context, the period from A to Z, whatever

16     that period might have been.

17             Okay.  Now this document falls outside the period and certainly

18     he is not -- as far as I understand, he's not present at the meeting.  So

19     how can you use that document as the basis of trying to suggest that he

20     would have known or that there were hearings or discussions about this

21     matter much earlier?  That's what I'm suggesting.  There is no linkage.

22     And to -- to use that as a form of impeachment is, you know, we're

23     missing a few steps.  Now, if he can link it up, if he can establish it,

24     that's fine.  If he wants to show that later on this was a discussion,

25     that's fine too.  I don't have a problem.  But to say that there was a

Page 33267

 1     meeting later on, and based on this meeting we know or should know that

 2     probably there was a meeting earlier, that you would have attended and

 3     therefore you're confabulating, I think it's a bit of a stretch.  And my

 4     point was merely to point this out to the Trial Chamber because I

 5     certainly don't want the Trial Chamber later on to say, well, obviously

 6     he's confabulating.  And as I indicated, I'm sure that this wasn't lost

 7     on the Trial Chamber's attention.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I think I

 9     understand.  The first problem is, did the witness take part in this

10     meeting.  If he did take part in it, maybe he can answer your question on

11     the content of this meeting.  If he did not take part in the meeting,

12     then it becomes more difficult.  But even if he didn't take part in the

13     meeting he may know something about the documents.  I don't know where

14     you intended to go to from that.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I refer to today's

16     transcript at page 30, starting at line 19 when Ms. Alaburic said:  "All

17     right now 4D 454, a document prepared for you by the Prlic Defence.  I

18     won't be pursuing this document with you in great detail, with great

19     respect to my good friend, then she proceeded to do that, but this is a

20     report from a meeting of certain units of the BH army and rather their

21     commanders, the Ministry of the Interior, et cetera, the date being the

22     28th of March, 1993.  Sir, Witness, have you ever seen this document

23     before?

24             Answer, yes, but I believe that was 10 years ago at the very

25     least.

Page 33268

 1             Next question:  All right.  I'll be asking you no more than three

 2     things by way of clarification.  Paragraph 4 of that document is a

 3     decision of sorts to establish full control of the free territory using

 4     army and MUP forces.  In your understanding of this document, this term

 5     full control of the free territory, does it mean that the army and the

 6     MUP intended to completely eliminate the HVO from that territory?

 7             I mean, that is -- so I don't understand, Your Honour.  I don't

 8     understand.  The Defence can ask about the document and the

 9     interpretation of it, and the Prosecution can't talk about the same

10     document.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Maybe the error's on my part.  And I will confess

12     error if that is the case.  Confession is always good for the soul.

13             Now, it was my understanding that the document was being used for

14     the previous question that he was trying to elicit, and that is the

15     decision on the unconstitutionality of the establishment of the Croatian

16     Community of Herceg-Bosna.  That was my understanding of it.  Now, if he

17     wants to use it for some other purposes, that's fine, but that was my

18     point.  Because the way the questioning went, and I'm -- you know, I'm a

19     trained listener.  It would appear that once he didn't get the answer

20     that he wanted, or he set up the trap, as it were, then he went to the

21     document to impeach.  And the problem with the impeachment process is we

22     have different dates different meetings, and there's no indication, no

23     factual basis, no predicate that this gentleman would have known at the

24     time, so maybe -- and I'm if I'm wrong, I stand to be directed but I'm

25     not suggesting that the Prosecution -- let me be clear -- I'm not

Page 33269

 1     suggesting that they cannot use the document, but not for the purposes of

 2     impeaching the witness as to whether at the time he was a member of the

 3     Presidency of the Crisis Staff that there was a discussion concerning the

 4     decision that was reached by the Constitutional Court in Sarajevo at that

 5     time.  That's the basis of my objection.  And I hope I made it clear.  I

 6     apologise to my learned friend if I misunderstood his methods or motives.

 7     Thank you.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

10             MR. SCOTT:  I don't think --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott you can proceed.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Especially with the witness about setting traps and

13     that sort of discussion.  I don't think is appropriate, but I do but I do

14     appreciate Mr. Karnavas at least explaining where he was coming from

15     because, with great respect, he is in error.  That was not the purpose of

16     showing him this document.  The purpose in showing the document was

17     twofold.  It did -- there was a transition from the earlier question

18     about the decision the Constitutional Court to this, and I just -- in

19     making that transition, when this is a witness who does say, No, we never

20     talked about it, and I just thought for the Chamber's general -- I guess

21     it's impeachment of a more general sort.  He says, isn't it interesting

22     that these people certainly seem to be very well aware of it and were

23     citing it as a basis for their programme.  We have this decision.  We've

24     got to do this.  That's all.  It stopped there.  Then it was put to

25     the -- then that document was put to the witness by Ms. Alaburic for

Page 33270

 1     the -- and I submit for the purpose of showing something sinister.  There

 2     was a plan by the ABiH to regain this territory, and Your Honour, my

 3     point, and I'll say it in front of the witness, is quite transparent.

 4     Yeah, to regain its own sovereign territory, its legal territory.  That's

 5     the point, and it has -- so it was used with the witness by the Defence

 6     to make that point.  I'm coming back and responding to exactly that

 7     evidence with the same document, so I'm at a loss as to know how there's

 8     anything improper about that.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't want my

10     reaction to go unrecorded.  My objection was about the presumption

11     contained in the question.  Its legal territory of the army of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina with was the army of one of the three constituent peoples in

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, everybody has said

15     his bit or her bit so now put your question.

16             MR. SCOTT:  I hope all that time will not be counted against me,

17     Mr. President.

18        Q.   Sir, my question on this point in fact if we could go back pages

19     in the transcript.  The specific concept was put to you simply was this

20     and it was a very basic one, and I just said, Is it anything unusual that

21     a state -- leave out the armed forces -- a state would take actions to

22     protect, retain, or if necessary, recover its sovereign territory?  Does

23     that strike you as anything unusual or odd about that?

24        A.   Much esteemed Prosecutor, you have to know that this decision of

25     the Constitutional Court was not even common knowledge in Jablanica.  No

Page 33271

 1     one knew about it.  In a purely physical sense we were not receiving any

 2     newspapers from Sarajevo at the time.  I simply cannot believe that there

 3     was actually an Official Gazette that reached Jablanica containing that

 4     decision and --

 5        Q.   That wasn't my question.  Is there anything unusual about a state

 6     taking action to defend, protect, or recover its sovereign territory?

 7     That's my question now.

 8        A.   I don't know.  Mr. Prosecutor, what I find highly unusual is that

 9     you are so adamant that I should say something that I'm simply unable to

10     say.

11        Q.   Well, we'll leave that.  That's for the Judges to determine, sir.

12             Now, is it correct that the Herceg Stjepan brigade, the HVO

13     brigade, was formed in the Konjic-Jablanica area around late September

14     1992, or is that something else you don't know?

15        A.   I know that, but I think it was set up sometime earlier on in

16     1992.  This strikes me as late.  I think it was set up somewhat earlier

17     in 1992.

18        Q.   Do you recall the War Presidency, the body of which you were a

19     member, on the 25th of September, 1992, asking the HVO to jointly produce

20     a defence plan for the municipality and the HVO refusing to participate

21     in that?

22        A.   What I remember is the HVO making a request.  I think that's

23     actually on the record, and one of the documents that we talked about in

24     chief there was the record where you saw the president of the HVO at a

25     meeting of the War Presidency being adamant that a joint defence plan

Page 33272

 1     should be drafted for Jablanica municipality to keep such incidents from

 2     happening as the HVO forces heading one way and the Muslim forces the

 3     other.

 4        Q.   Thank you for that.  Now perhaps you can answer my question.  You

 5     recall the War Presidency itself asking the HVO to participate in the

 6     preparation of a joint defence plan and the HVO refusing?

 7        A.   The HVO made an independent request to be treated as an equal

 8     component in the defence of Jablanica municipality.

 9        Q.   Would you please go next to Exhibit P 00539.  It should be the

10     sixth document in the binder.  P 00539.

11             While you're looking for it, sir, this is an HVO military police

12     document dated the 1st of October, 1992, a report.  Under item number 1,

13     for example, it talks about the military police Jablanica executed the

14     protection of the premises where the civil and wartime headquarters of

15     the HVO Jablanica are located.  Item 5 talks about the operation of a

16     check-point at Risovac.

17             Were you aware around this time in October 1992 that the HVO

18     military police was operating in Jablanica municipality and operating a

19     check-point at a place called Risovac?

20        A.   I do remember that the HVO had a check-point at Risovac,

21     Jablanica municipality.  I do, however, also remember that the

22     check-point was not being manned by military policemen alone.

23        Q.   Now, can you next go, and I'm going to need the assistance of the

24     registry on this because again this was a document that came up -- became

25     relevant after we prepared our binders?

Page 33273

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just while we're doing that, two points.  On the

 2     previous question there was an attempt to impeach.  Now, the gentleman

 3     has an obligation to put his case to the witness.  The gentleman

 4     indicated that he -- that he recalled the HVO making the proposal.  The

 5     Prosecution insisted that it was the other way around with the War

 6     Presidency thus leaving us with -- under the impression that there was

 7     some sorts of minutes of the meeting that would contradict the witness.

 8     I suggest that if he is not going to put his case to the witness through

 9     some sort of a document, then it's my understanding that he has accepted

10     the gentleman's answer on that.  Otherwise, I am going to say that this

11     is some sort of a trap.

12             Secondly with respect to this last issue that was raised, I dare

13     say we need to look at item number 5 where it talks about the reserve

14     troops of the MUP, the Ministry of Interior.  I highlight again -- it's

15     under -- it's under 4.  It's under -- I have it under number 5 here,

16     check-points.  Under check-points protection.  So we see the MUP as

17     consistently what he has indicated in his direct examination were

18     involved, the [indiscernible] of troops.  So I don't want to disrupt the

19     Prosecution in any shape or form, however, I do think we need to be fair

20     with the witness.  If he's going to try to impeach him, then he needs to

21     either show him the entire portion and put it into context, but more

22     importantly, put his case through it.  He can't just simply suggest

23     through the question and then move on without trying to show that the

24     gentleman's answer is anything other than truthful and complete.

25             MR. SCOTT:

Page 33274

 1        Q.   Sir, if we can go next please to Exhibit P 0 --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Scott, please.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, if the witness

 4     fails to answer a question, the Prosecutor has inevitably to try and

 5     get -- elicit an answer from him.  This is the reason why he uses

 6     appropriate documents.

 7             Please continue, Mr. Scott.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Sir, if you could turn next and again as I started to say, I

10     think it's already on the screen -- no?  Isn't it?  I'm looking for

11     Exhibit P 00546.  And what I started to say a moment ago is that this is

12     a document that became relevant after we prepared our binders, so if we

13     can work in e-court, I'll appreciate it.  But it was shown by the

14     witness -- it was shown by Mr. Karnavas to the witness.  I don't have his

15     binders with me at this point.  If the Chamber does, it's in the Prlic

16     Defence binder, but it's Exhibit P 00546.

17             Sir, it's also on the screen in front of you, and, sir, this was

18     shown to you the other day.  It is a -- it's minutes of the Presidency of

19     the Jablanica municipality on the 6th of October, 1992.  You are

20     indicated as being present at this meeting as a member of the Presidency,

21     and I'd like to direct your attention, please, to, in particular, to

22     page -- it's the same passage that Mr. Karnavas showed to you.  It starts

23     on the bottom of page 7 of the English version.  I'm afraid I'm not sure

24     I can help you with the B/C/S version, sir, but it's the same paragraph

25     that Mr. Karnavas showed you starting with the words Salko Zerem

Page 33275

 1     informed.  It should be well back into the document.  It comes after an

 2     intervention by Matan Zaric.  If anyone in the courtroom could be kind

 3     enough in the B/C/S version to help us, I would appreciate it.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Page 5.  Page 5.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, counsel.

 6        Q.   Page 5 of the Croatian version, sir, if you have that.  You were

 7     read a lengthy passage in respect to something Mr. Zerem said, but let me

 8     read you the next sentence and then put a question to you.  I will start

 9     about halfway through that paragraph on the bottom of page 7 of the

10     English version.  I'm just picking up for part of what Mr. Karnavas read:

11     "It is necessary to say that the Muslims were neither organised nor ready

12     at the beginning to fight against the aggressor and for that reason, they

13     are also very grateful to the Croatian nation for their timely engagement

14     and brave fight against the aggressor."  Here's the part that was not

15     read:  "National units were rejected as unacceptable from -- as an

16     unacceptable form in the structure of the RBiH and there is a greater

17     chance of forming territorial units."

18             Do you remember that discussion and that statement being made by

19     Mr. Zerem?

20        A.   I think you should see Mr. Zerem's statement in the overall

21     context of discussions going on at the time.  Mr. Matan Zaric at page 2

22     of this document in the B/C/S version, which is what you call it, is also

23     on the record as saying the problem was there was no coordinated defence

24     plan, agreed defence plan.  That's at the beginning of that huge

25     paragraph in the second part and that was what was leading to all this

Page 33276

 1     misunderstanding.

 2             I was present at the meeting at the time, and it was no problem

 3     at all.  Zerem and everybody else at that meeting, they were saying that

 4     they were expecting the authorities to back both of the components alike

 5     in terms of logistics, the Croat component and the Muslim component.  My

 6     impression at the time was that you wanted me to say something about

 7     merely one of the halves of this sentence uttered by Mr. Zerem, but I

 8     don't think there were any problems there at the time.

 9        Q.   Wasn't that the consistent position of the Muslim members of the

10     Presidency and the Muslim authorities or portion of the authorities in

11     Jablanica municipality during this time?  They were continually

12     responding and saying to the HDZ and the HVO we reject -- essentially we

13     reject Herceg-Bosna, we reject entities based on nationality.  We reject

14     all this, and we will not be part of it.  Isn't that the communication

15     that they continually sent which, I mean, let's jump to the chase,

16     ultimately leading to the conflict because they wouldn't do what the HVO

17     wanted them to do; correct?

18        A.   That's not what they kept saying, and I wasn't under the

19     impression at all while attending these meetings that what you are

20     suggesting was actually taking place.

21        Q.   Let's go, please, to the next exhibit which should be in the

22     binder.  Ninth document in the binder, P 00624.  P 00624.  A number --

23     another meeting just a few weeks later on the 22nd of October, 1992.  And

24     I will take -- remind the Chamber of what happened in Prozor a day or two

25     after that date.  And, sir, this is another minutes, set of minutes where

Page 33277

 1     you attended the meeting.  You're listed in the "Others present" portion,

 2     Mirko Zelenika.  And if I can, please, refer you to -- and I'll refer

 3     first the courtroom, the English speakers to page 6, the bottom of page 6

 4     of the English version, and again, sir, I think you were directed at this

 5     before, but it's the paragraph that starts "If we wish to create a better

 6     environment for a more successful defence of the municipality more

 7     contacts and cooperation between the OS and the HVO are needed, there

 8     should be barracks with trained soldiers in Jablanica, and we need more

 9     support from the Municipal Assembly in general."

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Page 5 for the witness.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Page 5 for the witness, I thought.  Thank you,

12     Mr. Karnavas.  I thought looking over his shoulder, so to speak, that he

13     had it but thank you for that.

14        Q.   Continuing on:  "It should be openly said that the Muslim people

15     will not accept three ethnic entities which are currently being imposed,

16     and any attempt to implement it at all cost would provoke a civil war."

17             Now once again, sir, I ask you again, wasn't that the consistent

18     position and message coming from the Muslims at this time that any

19     attempt to create ethnic entities, any attempt to do so would be rejected

20     and would indeed lead to war?

21        A.   Sir, are we talking about the 22nd of October meeting?

22        Q.   Yes, sir.  P 00624.

23        A.   I don't know where you got this from.  I never said a single word

24     about the army.  On the 22nd of October, this is the last page of each of

25     the versions you will see me talking about the difficulties encountered

Page 33278

 1     in this work about the Executive Board.

 2        Q.   Would you please answer my question.  [Overlapping speakers]

 3        A.   I can't answer your question because you're asking me something I

 4     didn't say.  I never said a single word about the army at any of these

 5     meetings.

 6        Q.   Sir, I said -- forgive me.  If I misspoke, my apologies.  If I

 7     misspoke or was mistranslated or something, my apologies.

 8             Mr. Karnavas had shown you starting at the bottom of page 6 of a

 9     passage, if we wish to create.  We looked at that.  No one attributed it

10     to you, at least I didn't.  And then it goes on to say:  "It should

11     openly -- it should be openly said that the Muslim people will not accept

12     three ethnic entities which are currently being imposed and any attempt

13     to implement it at all cost would provoke a civil war."  And my question

14     to you, sir, was following up the question -- the theme of questions that

15     I've been putting to you for the last few minutes, was that, again, not a

16     further statement of the consistent position and message coming from the

17     Muslim side in Jablanica during this period rejecting any form of

18     national entities, separate groups, separate military forces and

19     proposing over and over again a single, for example, unified defence?

20     I'm not asking whether you agree with it or not.  Wasn't that their

21     position as stated over and over again?

22        A.   I remember now this is what Mr. Salko Zerem said.  He led this

23     debate not based on the situation and the relations in Jablanica

24     municipality, rather, he was talking about something further away in

25     Central Bosnia, something not in our own environment.  This particular

Page 33279

 1     debate and what you see reflected here was not about the relations or

 2     indeed the situation in Jablanica itself.

 3        Q.   And, sir, following this, because our time is limited, even

 4     around -- and this is dated in October -- at the end of October 1992,

 5     wasn't it the case even through this period that the Muslim members of

 6     these authorities continued to reach out and include Croats in these --

 7     in these matters, including when you -- you yourself, in fact, you told

 8     us much earlier now but referring back, you replaced a Muslim.  You a

 9     Croat came on the Presidency replacing a Muslim.  Mr. Matan Zaric, a

10     Croat, was vice-president of the War Presidency.  When you left you were

11     replaced by a Croat, Ivan Rogic.  So despite these building tensions, if

12     you will, every effort was still being made to include Muslim -- or

13     excuse me, Croats in these authorities; correct?

14        A.   Not correct at all.  What do you mean including Croats?  This is

15     their right under the constitution and according to election results.

16     This is self-implicit.

17        Q.   And then we looked at the documents, sir, yesterday, I believe it

18     was yesterday, 1D 03038.  We may not need to look at that, but that is

19     the document which you indicated was the one that relieved you of your

20     position as a member of the Presidency or president of the Executive

21     Council and then appointed you to a position in the public security

22     station in Jablanica.  Do you recall the document generally?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And I'm still not quite sure about where you came out in terms of

25     your involvement at the public security station.  Are you saying you

Page 33280

 1     never actually performed that work?  You never became part of that

 2     organisation?  You never received payment or salary for any work in

 3     connection with that organisation?

 4        A.   Yes.  I agree with what you suggest.  I went there several times.

 5     I didn't do anything, and I certainly received no salary.

 6        Q.   You received no salary.  Is that your -- all right.

 7        A.   No, but I didn't do anything for them either.  I received no

 8     salary, but there was nothing to receive a salary for.

 9        Q.   Let me direct your attention next to Exhibit P 00832.  It should

10     be the tenth document in the binder.  P 00832.

11        A.   Can you please repeat that number for me?

12        Q.   P 00832.

13             Sir, this is a report from the minister of interior of MUP of the

14     Bosnia -- of the Republic of Bosnia Herzegovina, dated 30 November 1992.

15     In the second paragraph it says:  "Since recently in some municipalities

16     which have illegitimately declared themselves as constituent parts of the

17     so-called Herceg-Bosna, one is organising police stations whereby members

18     of the MUP of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are being put under

19     different sorts of pressure to sign application forms and requests for

20     employment at the MUP of the so-called Herceg-Bosna.  In that context one

21     is issuing ultimatums to sign application forms and submit requests under

22     the threat of termination of employment."

23             Now, this is coming from Jablanica.  Did you -- can you assist

24     the Judges with to what extent the MUP of Herceg-Bosna was operating in

25     Jablanica on -- around the end of November 1992?

Page 33281

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may make a slight correction, Your Honour.

 2     This is coming from Sarajevo, not from Jablanica.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  My apologies.  I accept that, Counsel.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you recall the extent that the MUP of Herceg Bosna was

 5     operated in Jablanica around this time?

 6        A.   The Herceg-Bosna MUP was operating to no extent at all in

 7     Jablanica municipality.

 8        Q.   Sir, when you say "no extent," should we understand that the

 9     Herceg-Bosna, the MUP didn't exist in Jablanica municipality in November

10     1992?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Okay.  So now it existed, but it wasn't doing anything?

13        A.   You can't say that it existed.

14        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry.  I misunderstood.  So you're saying -- let me go

15     back and repeat my prior question then.  You're telling the Judges that

16     the MUP of Herceg-Bosna did not exist and did not operate in Jablanica

17     municipality in November 1992.

18        A.   I never saw a single car.  I never saw a single uniformed police

19     officer belonging to the Herceg-Bosna MUP anywhere in Jablanica

20     municipality at that time.  Had the MUP actually existed in the area, I

21     believe I would have seen some of them around.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we're going to break

23     now because we have a question for Mr. Karnavas, and we have two minutes

24     left.

25             Witness, you shall return tomorrow at 9.00.  I wish you a very

Page 33282

 1     good afternoon.

 2             Mr. Karnavas, very quickly.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On behalf of the Trial Chamber

 5     I want to ask you this with regard to the translation problems you had

 6     with the expert report, are you asking for a decision by the Trial

 7     Chamber?  What we need to know is what the registry told you to account

 8     for the fact that the translation was not carried out?

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  I believe they told us they won't do it.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but did they give a reason

12     for that, or means, or cost of it?  What kind of motives or reasons did

13     they give?  If you can't answer now, do that later, but we need to know

14     what the reason was that was given by the registry.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:  The reason was, Your Honours, that it was written

16     in one of the official languages, which was English, the languages being

17     English and French.  Here it is.  I found it.  "Is rejecting our request

18     because the original language document is in English.  Exhibits must be

19     filed in their original language and one of the Tribunal's working

20     languages.  In this case the original language is one of the working

21     languages."  So that's rather circular.

22             Now, the accused, of course, cannot read English, at least not

23     all of them, and so -- and there has been an application, and a right

24     one, that the document be translated so that the accused who are entitled

25     to assist in their own defence and give instructions to -- to their

Page 33283

 1     attorneys, to their counsel, have it in a language in which they

 2     understand.  So that's why.

 3             Now, we have another -- we have another -- with our other expert

 4     which is being done in B/C/S, due to the time factor, and the reports are

 5     very smaller.  We're doing that on our own as opposed to relying on ODM.

 6     So we're trying to pick up the slack as much as we can.  And those two --

 7     two reports will be filed within the next few days.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I understood the

 9     problem now.

10             Well, the Trial Chamber will deliberate.

11             Mr. Scott, you have used one hour and 21 minutes.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And if I can have 30 seconds

13     additional seconds of the Chamber's time.  On behalf of Mr. Stringer.

14             Your Honour, the Defence have filed two motions, and forgive me,

15     I'm looking at the e-mail obviously.  The Defence has filed two motions.

16     One on the 12th of October and one on the 14th of October concerning

17     matters regarding the witness Raguz, and the other one concerning the

18     witness Zoran Perkovic.  The Prosecution requests to make a combined

19     response 14 days from the 14th of October.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It might be better to have one

21     answer for the two motions that deal with the same issue.  No problem.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wish everybody a good

24     afternoon.  We shall reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.  I'm starting

25     another hearing in a few minutes.

Page 33284

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day

 3                           of October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.