Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34080

 1                           Monday, 3 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Registrar, can you kindly call

 7     the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and

10     around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor

11     versus Jadranko Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Monday.  I would like to greet Mr. Tomic, first of all,

15     who stayed here for a few days, waiting for the hearing to resume.  I

16     would like to thank him.

17             I would like to greet the accused, the counsel, Mr. Scott and

18     Mr. Kruger, as well as their associate, and all the people helping us in

19     this courtroom.

20             We are today going to begin the cross-examination.  Since we have

21     very little time, I shall not waste any more time and give the floor to

22     Mr. Scott straight away.

23                           WITNESS:  NEVEN TOMIC [Resumed]

24                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Scott:

Page 34081

 1             MR. SCOTT:  Good afternoon to Your Honours, each of you, and good

 2     afternoon to all those in and around the courtroom, Counsel, and good

 3     afternoon, Mr. Tomic.

 4        Q.   Sir, I'd like to start and spend some minutes -- take us some

 5     time to go through a bit of what we might call background to try to

 6     clarify a few points that we discussed last week, perhaps a few more

 7     points on particular items or clarification.  I'd like to start off,

 8     please, in terms of the HDZ political party.

 9             You said last Monday that you were pressed or pressured, in 1991,

10     to become a member of the HDZ, but that you did not become a member "at

11     that time."  Could you tell us, please, who was pressing you to join the

12     HDZ in approximately 1991?

13        A.   At the time, the municipal leadership of the HDZ of Mostar

14     offered me to sign their papers and become an HDZ member.  That would

15     have made it easier for me to become appointed a director of the

16     reconstruction and development fund of the city of Mostar.  To answer

17     your question, it was the municipal leadership of the HDZ of Mostar.

18        Q.   Two things, sir, that you're going to find that I will ask you

19     repeatedly, and if you can assist not only me but the Judges, please.

20     When you say "municipal leadership," I'm even more interested in getting

21     the names of actual individuals, if you can assist us, and I'll also be

22     asking, I'll just say in general about dates.  If you can be as specific

23     as possible, everyone being mindful, of course, that these events took

24     place some time ago, but if you can assist us as much as possible with

25     dates, that would be appreciated.

Page 34082

 1             So when you say someone in the municipal leadership or people in

 2     the municipal leadership wanted you to join the HDZ, picking up on what I

 3     just said, such as who, what individuals?

 4        A.   Mr. Jerko Doko, Milivoj Gagro, Marin Topic.

 5        Q.   And I take it from the implication of the answer that you gave

 6     when you said you did not join "at that time," that you did at some point

 7     join the HDZ; correct?

 8        A.   Later, as the HVO of the HZ-HB and political bodies continued

 9     working, all members of the HDZ were invited to the Presidency sessions,

10     and later on we became members of the HDZ, firstly by our functions or

11     positions, and then in practical terms we became members of the HDZ.

12        Q.   All right.  So you've answered my question.  You did at some

13     point become a member of the HDZ.  Can you tell us, again, dates?

14     Approximately when was that?

15        A.   I've just told you that there's no specific date.  We did not

16     sign any papers to become members.  It was just a string of events.

17     Continued activity had ensued, and all officials in the HZ-HB and later

18     on in the government of the Federation were duty-bound to attend

19     Presidency sessions, and they were also members of the main board of the

20     HDZ.  Not for a single moment there was anything as the official signing

21     of any papers, so I wouldn't really be able to give you any precise date.

22        Q.   Well, sir, I don't want to get too bogged down in this, but let

23     me just suggest to you I don't find that answer to be sufficient.  It

24     certainly was not the case that just anyone and everyone sort of at some

25     point morphed into an HDZ member in the general population or among the

Page 34083

 1     officials of these various bodies, so, sir, you must have some idea when

 2     you considered you had become a member of the HDZ.  Please.

 3        A.   If I can compare the periods in question, I can tell you that I

 4     became a party member after I went to Sarajevo; in other words, after the

 5     Washington Accords, in that period roughly.

 6        Q.   Let's come at it this way:  When you became involved with the

 7     Mostar Crisis Staff in 1992, by approximately April/May 1992, did you

 8     consider that you had become a member of the HDZ by that time?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And you can't assist the Judges any more as to when you became a

11     member of the HDZ, except at some time between 1991 and going to Sarajevo

12     sometime after the Washington Agreement years later, sometime in there

13     you became a member of the HDZ; is that correct?

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Objection.  Mischaracterizes the evidence.  He

15     said after he went to Sarajevo, which would have been after the

16     Washington Agreement, so we're talking post-1994, post-indictment period.

17     That should be helpful to the Judges.

18             MR. SCOTT:  That's what I said, Mr. Karnavas.  It says "and going

19     to Sarajevo sometime after the Washington Agreement, years later."

20        Q.   Are you saying, sir, you were not a member of the HDZ until after

21     the Washington Agreement, which was signed in approximately March 1994?

22        A.   There was no official admission into the membership of the HDZ.

23     I did not sign any papers to join.  At that moment, the HDZ was a

24     movement rather than anything else, and as per the HDZ rules, we were all

25     duty-bound to participate in its work.  I really can't give you the

Page 34084

 1     precise date when I consider to have become a member of the HDZ, because

 2     there was no official admission act that preceded it.

 3        Q.   And did you hold any other positions or functions in that party,

 4     apart from membership?  Did you ever become an official or take on any

 5     sort of other function or positions in the HDZ party during the time that

 6     you were a member?

 7        A.   By function, as the deputy presiding over the Ministerial

 8     Council, I was also a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9     This was through sheer --

10        Q.   I apologise.  Our time is limited, and I ask you to listen to my

11     questions very carefully.  If it's mis-translation or if I misspoke, I

12     apologise both to you and to the interpreters.

13             My question had nothing to do with the Ministerial Council or

14     your position in the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15     Sir, right now I'm talking about the HDZ political party.  You understand

16     the concept of a political party, I take it.  Yes?

17        A.   Yes, of course.

18        Q.   You understand my question to you now is:  Did you hold any

19     offices, position or function in the HDZ political party, other than

20     being a member?

21        A.   I was a member of the Presidency of the HDZ of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   When did you become a member of that body?

24        A.   In early 1997, when I was elected the co-chairperson of the

25     Ministerial Council.

Page 34085

 1        Q.   Prior to being a member of the HDZ, were you a member of any

 2     political party in your adult life?

 3        A.   I was a member of the League of Communists.

 4        Q.   You said in your testimony last week that for approximately one

 5     year, you were the president of a Yugoslavian youth organisation of some

 6     sort.  Unless I missed it, and I may have, can you give us the name of

 7     that particular organisation that you were the president of?

 8        A.   It was the Alliance of the Socialist Youth of Yugoslavia, and I

 9     was the president of the municipal conference of that organisation, i.e.,

10     of the Alliance of the Socialist Youth, in the municipality of Mostar.

11        Q.   What time period -- for what time period, sorry, did you hold

12     that position, approximately?

13        A.   For a year, precisely.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... what date, precisely?

15        A.   I believe that it was in 1985 and in 1986.

16        Q.   Is there any relationship -- and this may seem very basic to you

17     and it may be known to most everyone in the courtroom or not, but for

18     purposes of the record in this case, can you tell us what relationship,

19     if any, existed between that organisation and the Communist Party or

20     League of Communists?

21        A.   This organisation rallied young people, up to the age of 27.  It

22     was a collective member of the Socialist Alliance of the Working People

23     of Yugoslavia, which was a collective organisation which comprised the

24     League of Communists as the leading force in that organisation.

25        Q.   Now, apart from being president of the Socialist Youth, did you

Page 34086

 1     have any other -- hold any other positions or office in that party, in

 2     the Communist Party?

 3        A.   I was a member of my own organisation, in the Unis

 4     Electronic Company in Mostar.

 5        Q.   Apart from that, did you hold any party positions?  Were you a

 6     secretary, a president, a chairperson?  Did you hold any other functions

 7     in the Communist Party, other than those you've told us about so far?

 8        A.   None, as far as I can remember.  I did not hold any important

 9     functions.

10        Q.   Prior to the time you became head of the finance department of

11     the HVO in approximately mid-August 1992, prior to that time, had you

12     held any government function in the former Yugoslavia at any level,

13     municipal, regional, federal, republic?  Had you held any political

14     office or governmental office, excuse me, prior to becoming head of the

15     finance department?

16        A.   I was, in professional terms, the director of the fund for the

17     reconstruction and development of the city, and during that period of

18     time I was not politically active, in terms of being affiliated with any

19     political party during that period of time.

20        Q.   All right.  Did you consider this fund to be, then, based on your

21     answer just now, a governmental body, a public body, as opposed to a

22     private business, or perhaps socially owned, mixed in some way?  But if

23     you can just briefly clarify, please.

24        A.   The reconstruction and development fund was a para-budgetary

25     institution which managed public resources.  In other words, it managed

Page 34087

 1     funds, financial funds that belonged to the Municipality of Mostar, and

 2     those funds were intended for the zoning, urban planning, development,

 3     and reconstruction of the infrastructure.  It also managed the assets in

 4     terms of building ground and infrastructural facilities.

 5        Q.   When you say -- when you describe that as being a para-budgetary

 6     organisation, what do you mean in that context, "para" meaning what?

 7        A.   The fund had its own budget which was passed at the annual level

 8     and which was ratified by the Municipal Assembly.  However, it was not

 9     part of the municipal budget, and it is within this context that I said

10     that it was a para-budgetary institution.  It did have a budget but not

11     as part of the municipal budget.  However, the city assembly had to

12     approve its budget, and thus it had a say in defining the projects and

13     plans that this fund passed at its own level.

14        Q.   And then you were appointed head of the HVO finance department on

15     the 15th of August, 1992; correct?  Maybe the 14th, but middle of August.

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And then later in the fall of 1993, perhaps around November,

18     after the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was established, you were

19     named deputy finance minister under Mr. Martinovic, as finance minister;

20     is that correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And you were appointed once again to the top finance position, if

23     you will, as Minister of Finance of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna

24     in January 1995; is that correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 34088

 1        Q.   And you held that position for approximately how long, sir, until

 2     when?  If you can give me kind of an end date, please.

 3        A.   I believe that it was up to the moment when the governments of

 4     the Federation and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina were split.  This

 5     was the moment when the Washington Agreement took off the ground, which

 6     happened just before the Dayton Accords were passed.

 7        Q.   So sometime in late 1995, then; is that what you're telling us?

 8        A.   I would say mid-1995, but I can't be sure of the exact time when

 9     this happened.

10        Q.   So you held -- just to be sure here, you held the position of

11     Minister of Finance of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna only from

12     approximately 13 January 1995 to mid-1995; is that correct?

13        A.   I really can't tell you exactly when my office reached the end,

14     because during that period I was also the Minister of Finance of the

15     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

16     Herceg-Bosna, when the governments of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     and the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina split, at that moment my office

18     in the government of Herceg-Bosna was terminated.

19        Q.   During the period of approximately 1 April 1992 until the end of

20     1992, can you tell us where you lived or had your residence, your

21     principal residence, please?

22        A.   In Mostar.

23        Q.   And approximately -- can you give us the address in Mostar,

24     please?

25        A.   First in my own apartment in Leopold Dokmanovic Street, number 3,

Page 34089

 1     and later in Mr. Slezak's house, which was not far from my own apartment.

 2        Q.   And did you continue to live at -- the second location, then, if

 3     I understand correctly, if it's a matter of sequence, did you continue to

 4     live at that residence in 1993?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In an effort to try to save some time, if we can - maybe we will,

 7     maybe we won't - I'd like the witness to be shown or provided a copy

 8     of -- we will provide the witness a copy of what was previously marked as

 9     P09517, which is a street diagram of Mostar Town; not in great detail,

10     but it's one we've used on a number of occasions.

11             MR. SCOTT:  If the Chamber wants to look at it, it will be on the

12     ELMO.  It should also be in e-court, the clean version, as, I believe,

13     again, P09517.

14        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you to make some markings.  So if the usher

15     can assist you with the appropriate marking device.

16             Sir, if you can find it on the map, approximately, and again I

17     realise and everyone realises this is not a detailed map, but if you can

18     give us the approximate -- as best you can, the approximate location of

19     the first place that you told us that you lived a few moments ago in

20     Mostar before you moved into Mr. Slezak's flat, I believe.  Where was

21     that, if you can make a mark, you can mark that with a number 1, find it

22     and then mark it number 1.

23        A.   [Marks].

24        Q.   And then where was the second place of Mr. Slezak's residence?

25        A.   The place isn't on the map.

Page 34090

 1        Q.   Can you kind of point an arrow and just maybe make -- give it a

 2     number 2 and just point it off in the general -- as close as you can to

 3     the general direction off the map, where it was?

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.   All right.  And my question to you at the time we pulled out the

 6     map was:  And did you continue to live at location number 2 throughout

 7     1993 or where did you live in 1993?

 8        A.   On the whole, I lived there.

 9        Q.   All right.  And during the time when you were working at the --

10     once you became involved as the head of the HVO finance department, so

11     we're talking about August 1992 and forward, can you tell us where your

12     office was located?  When you went to work, if you will, as head of the

13     finance department, where did you go during that second half of 1992?

14     Mark that number 3, please.

15        A.   [Marks].

16        Q.   Thank you.  And for how long did you work at that particular

17     location, approximately?

18        A.   It was until the left bank was finally liberated and when we

19     moved to Hotel Arrow.

20        Q.   And when was that, approximately?  That is, when did you have

21     your office at Hotel Arrow?

22        A.   I think it was at the beginning of 1993.

23        Q.   Can you mark that, please, with number 4?

24        A.   [Marks].

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas [sic].  Mr. Tomic, you

Page 34091

 1     have used the expression that the left bank was liberated.  Liberated

 2     from whom?  What do you have in mind when you use that term?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when it was liberated from

 4     the presence of the Yugoslav Army and reserve forces present in the area.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  Maybe -- I'm sorry, Judge.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I leave it at that for the moment.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Perhaps Judge Trechsel would have the same follow-up

 8     question.

 9        Q.   That leaves me just a bit confused, because I thought you said

10     that in August 1992, you were working at location number 3.  August 1992

11     would be after the Serbs left Mostar, so I think your dates are a bit

12     confused, if you'll allow, sir.

13        A.   Yes, correct, but Hotel Arrow was destroyed.  It had to be

14     renovated, and when we accumulated the initial equipment, when this was

15     started on, so I think it was the beginning of 1993 that we moved to the

16     premises of Hotel Arrow.  I can't be precise, though.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  A very brief technical question.  Mr. Tomic, how

18     would you spell the name "Arrow," the name of the hotel?  How do you

19     write it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] E-R-O.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That's what I thought, but it's

22     "Arrow" in the transcript, which is something -- I don't know, perhaps

23     this is a translation, but thank you very much.

24             MR. SCOTT:

25        Q.   All right, sir.  So then just based on the clarification the last

Page 34092

 1     few minutes, from approximately August 1992 until approximately sometime

 2     in early 1993, your office was located at number 3.  Sometime beginning

 3     in early 1993, you relocated your office, that is, the finance

 4     department, to location number 4.  How long were you at that location

 5     number 4?

 6        A.   We were there until the conflict between the Muslims and the

 7     Croats in Mostar broke out.

 8        Q.   So until approximately May 1993, the 9th of May; is that what

 9     you're telling us?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And where did you move your location?  I do understand that at

12     some point you indicated you had moved the location to Siroki Brijeg.

13     Was it at that time?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And how long did you remain in Siroki Brijeg for?  Did you at

16     some point return to Mostar, and if so, when?

17        A.   Well, we remained in Siroki Brijeg for about a month, perhaps,

18     and then we returned to Mostar, to the new premises, which is where the

19     finance department continued with its work.

20        Q.   So when you moved to a new location in approximately June 1993,

21     can you please find that on the drawing and mark that number 5.

22        A.   [Marks].

23        Q.   And did you remain at that location through the rest of 1993 and

24     into 1994, "that location" being number 5?

25        A.   Yes, and then later on I think we moved to the Praktent [phoen]

Page 34093

 1     building.  I had left for Sarajevo already, so I don't know when that was

 2     exactly.

 3        Q.   Well, let me -- again, sir, so that the record is clear for the

 4     future, did you remain at location number 5 through at least maybe -- and

 5     we don't know exactly when yet, but through at least the end of 1993?

 6        A.   I think so.

 7        Q.   Now, when the office relocated for about one month to

 8     Siroki Brijeg, did you continue living in Mostar or did you also move

 9     your residence to Siroki Brijeg?

10        A.   My flat remained in Mostar.

11        Q.   And if it's -- can you tell us, then, where you were living

12     during that period of time?  It may be one of the -- presumably, it's one

13     of the markings you've already made, so where were you living?  Were you

14     living at location number 2 throughout this period?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And if I can ask you a similar question to what I asked you a

17     moment ago:  Did you continue to live at that location until at least the

18     end of 1993?

19        A.   I think so.

20        Q.   Now, where was -- you've told us where the finance department was

21     located.  Where did the HVO HZ-HB have its office ?  And again we'll

22     start chronologically.  When you became finance head in mid-August 1992,

23     where was the HVO HZ-HB located?  And can you -- when you've found that

24     on the map, if you can mark that number 6, please.

25        A.   Well, at the time when Mr. Prlic was designated as the president

Page 34094

 1     of the HVO HZ-HB, he set up an office which was in the same building in

 2     which the finance department was located, so it's number 3 here.

 3        Q.   Just so we can keep the record very, very clear, could you mark a

 4     number 6 just very close to the number 3?

 5        A.   [Marks].

 6        Q.   But not "36."  Why don't you draw a line, if you could, please,

 7     between the "3" and the "6."  You can just draw a diagonal line between

 8     the "3" and the "6."  My apologies if I've confused it.

 9        A.   [Marks].

10        Q.   Now, did it remain at that location, sir, through all of 1992 and

11     1993, or did the HVO HZ-HB move its office at some -- excuse me, at some

12     time?

13        A.   After my department moved to Hotel Ero, immediately afterwards

14     the HVO also moved the office of the president of the HVO and other

15     departments; justice, the department for refugees, et cetera.

16        Q.   If I can still remember, forgive me, is it number 4, location

17     number 4?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And could, in the same fashion, sir, could you draw maybe a

20     diagonal line to separate the "4" and then mark that with the number 7?

21        A.   [Marks].

22        Q.   So is it correct, sir, that during the time when the finance

23     department was located at locations 3 and 6 and again at locations 4 and

24     7, you were at the same locations with Mr. Prlic and the HVO HZ-HB?

25        A.   Correct.  At number 3 and 6, we were there all the time together,

Page 34095

 1     and 4 and 7 -- at 4 and 7, Mr. Prlic's office arrived a little later, but

 2     then there was a period of time during which we were both there.

 3        Q.   And did Mr. Prlic's office remain at the location 4 and 7

 4     throughout the remainder of 1993 or did it -- did his office or the HVO

 5     HZ-HB, or what became the HR-HB government, did that location change at

 6     some point?

 7        A.   Yes, it changed.

 8        Q.   And can you look on the map, please, and when you think you've

 9     found the approximate location, can you mark that with a number 8?

10        A.   [Marks].

11        Q.   And can you tell us approximately how long did Mr. Prlic and the

12     HVO government or the HR-HB government, whichever it was at the time, how

13     long were those operations located at location 8?

14        A.   I think it was until our departure to Sarajevo.  I think the HVO

15     HZ-HB was there until that point in time.

16        Q.   So again using sort of the measure that we used earlier this

17     afternoon, at least until the end of 1993; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   All right, sir, we're almost finished with this, but a few other

20     locations I'd like to ask you about.  We're going to talk in a few

21     minutes about your history and relationship with Mr. Prlic, but I take it

22     that during the years 1992-1993, you knew where Mr. Prlic lived.  Is that

23     correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And again if we start with approximately April 1992, during the

Page 34096

 1     time of the Special-Purposes Council, for example, and the Crisis Staff,

 2     where do you know -- where was Mr. Prlic living around that time?  And

 3     when you find that location, approximately, can you mark that as

 4     number 9?

 5        A.   [Marks].

 6        Q.   And again, using my -- it could have started sometime well before

 7     that, but starting at least by, let's say, May 1992, how long did

 8     Mr. Prlic continue to live at location number 9, or did he live at that

 9     location until at least the end of 1993?

10        A.   Mr. Prlic at that point in time was living with me and two of my

11     friends at location number 1.

12        Q.   When you say "at that time," when was that?  You've just told us

13     a moment ago that his residence was at location number 9, at least as at

14     April/May 1992, in that time period.  When did he move to location

15     number 1?

16        A.   During that period of time, he moved, because his family had also

17     moved to Makarska.  The flat was located in an area that was vulnerable

18     to shelling from Hum.  He then moved to my flat, which had a better

19     location given the shelling or shooting from the Hum hill and Podvelezje.

20        Q.   All right.  Now -- and I'm sorry if I misspoke about location

21     number 1.  Is that the time after you had moved in with Mr. Slezak or --

22     let me rephrase my question.  When Mr. Prlic moved in with you, was that

23     at location number 1 or location number 2?

24        A.   Location number 1.

25        Q.   And how long did Mr. Prlic live with you at location -- at that

Page 34097

 1     location number 1?

 2        A.   We moved to location number 2 together.

 3        Q.   And again remind us, at this part of the record, when was that?

 4        A.   I think it was at the end of 1992.

 5        Q.   And how long did Mr. Prlic live with you at that location?  And

 6     if it helps or if it helps move us along:  Did the two of you continue to

 7     live at that location until -- at least until the end of 1993 together?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And, again, to be very, very clear, we're now talking about

10     location number 2; is that correct?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   And I think only one other location that I want to ask you about.

13     Where was the HVO Department of Defence located?  And again we're

14     starting April 1992 and moving forward.  Where was the HVO Department of

15     Defence, the place where Mr. Stojic had his office?

16        A.   Well, first of all in Grude, and then an office was established

17     in Mostar.

18        Q.   Let's go to the time -- excuse me for interrupting you, but in

19     the interests of time, let's go to the point where the office was located

20     in Mostar, since that's the map that we're looking at at the moment.

21     When was a Department of Defence office located, in the sense that we're

22     using it now, Mr. Stojic's office of the Department of Defence, when was

23     that located in Mostar?  And if you can find it on the map, sir, I think

24     we're up to number 10, please.

25        A.   [Marks].

Page 34098

 1        Q.   And how long did Mr. Stojic and the Department of Defence have

 2     its main office at that location, number 10?

 3        A.   I can't say precisely.  I know that they later moved to another

 4     building, but I don't know exactly when.

 5        Q.   Another building in Mostar, in West Mostar?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. SCOTT:  Mr. President, if we could have an IC number for the

 8     map, please.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

11     Exhibit number IC 00877.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Moving to --

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, one follow-up

15     question.

16             We've learned that you were sharing a flat with Mr. Prlic.  Did

17     you pay rent or did -- we would like to know who paid the rent.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I paid the rent, and he and two of

19     my other friends were in my flat because it was safer there, and it was

20     easier for us to obtain logistics, to do logistics matters, because my

21     wife and children weren't there.  When I say "logistics," I mean kitchen

22     work and so on.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  My last question:  To your

24     knowledge, did Mr. Boban have a service flat, or did he stay with

25     someone, or did he live in his own house without this apartment being

Page 34099

 1     paid for either by the Republic of Herceg-Bosna or the Croat Community?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Mr. Boban had a

 3     house in a village in the suburbs of Grude.  It was a privately-owned

 4     house.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 6             MR. SCOTT:

 7        Q.   And just to stay on that moment -- for a moment longer, then:

 8     Did Mr. Boban at any time, to your knowledge, in 1993 have either an

 9     office or a residence in the town of Mostar?

10        A.   There was an office for the president of the HZ-HB which moved to

11     location 3 or, rather, 6 on this map, when the HVO HZ-HB moved to

12     Hotel Ero.

13        Q.   I suppose that leads us, then, to the next question.  You've told

14     us there was a physical office.  How often was Mr. Boban, in your

15     experience, how often was Mr. Boban himself actually in Mostar during

16     this time?  And, I mean, we're roughly talking mid-1992 until the end of

17     1993, about an 18-month period.  I mean, you may have had an office, but

18     perhaps you will tell us he was never there or perhaps he was there every

19     day.

20        A.   He would come very seldom.  He spent most of his time in Grude.

21        Q.   Now, we're still on locations, but changing gears a bit.  During

22     this time period we've been talking about this afternoon so far, roughly,

23     again, April 1992, end of 1993, did you have occasion to be in Sarajevo?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did you have any regular points of contact there, and by that I

Page 34100

 1     mean did you have friends, business associations -- associates, excuse

 2     me, political colleagues?  Did you have any persons in Sarajevo during

 3     that time period you had regular contact with?

 4        A.   I didn't have regular contact because there were no

 5     communications in that situation, and on the whole, when they left

 6     Sarajevo, well, on such occasions it was possible for me to meet some of

 7     them.

 8        Q.   Well, just to make it a bit more specific, if we can, just let me

 9     ask you about a couple of particular individuals.  There may have been

10     times during that time period, again mid-1992, end of 1993, when, maybe

11     or maybe not, Mr. Franjo Boras may have been in Sarajevo.  Did you have

12     any regular dealings during this period with Mr. Boras at any time that

13     he was in Sarajevo?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15        Q.   How about Mile Akmadzic, did you have any dealings or

16     communications with Mr. Akmadzic during the time when he was -- if any,

17     when he was in Sarajevo during that time period?

18        A.   When he came to Herzegovina is the first time that I met him.  I

19     had no contact with him while he was in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   And just a couple of additional names.  How about Mr. Bozo Rajic?

21     Did you have any dealings with Mr. Rajic in Sarajevo during this time

22     period, mid-1992, end of 1993?

23        A.   Bozo Rajic was the vice-president of the HZ-HB, and as far as I

24     know during that period of time, he wasn't in Sarajevo, he was in Grude,

25     Citluk, and I know that his family was in the same hotel where my parents

Page 34101

 1     were.  So I would see him over the weekend, too, at the Adriatic.

 2        Q.   And I take it that was in Makarska.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   Basko Polje, which is near Makarska.

 4        Q.   Sir, can you tell us when you first met Jadranko Prlic?

 5        A.   We knew each other from the streets, from town, but we actually

 6     met each other when I was the president of the youth organisation, and

 7     that is when we started cooperating more seriously, because at the time

 8     he was also the secretary of the Socialist Association of the Working

 9     People of Mostar, another political organisation.

10        Q.   Is there any short or more common or familiar name for that

11     particular organisation, other than Socialist Association of the Working

12     People of Mostar?  I mean, is it the Communist Party, sir, just so we're

13     clear?

14        A.   No.  It's an organisation which included all political

15     organisations or covered all political organisations active in the town

16     of Mostar at the time of Yugoslavia.  It included the Communist

17     Association, Communist League, the youth organisation, and the

18     Association of Combatants, trade unions.  All these bodies were members

19     of this, well, let's say umbrella organisation.

20             MR. SCOTT:  All right, I understand.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Tomic, this organisation

22     which brought together a number of organisations, was it typical to

23     Mostar or was this the Communist system at that time that structured

24     things in that way everywhere?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the structure, starting

Page 34102

 1     with the federal level, where there was the so-called Socialist Alliance

 2     of Working People of Yugoslavia.  Then there was such an organisation in

 3     every republic and also in every municipal, across the board.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 5             MR. SCOTT:

 6        Q.   And did you understand, sir, and again so that we don't get

 7     bogged down in some of these -- some of the terminology too much because

 8     of time limitations, during that time period did you understand Mr. Prlic

 9     to be a member of the Communist Party?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And would it be fair to say, sir, that from that time forward, it

12     may have, if I can use the term, ebbed and flowed a bit, but from that

13     time forward until recently, maybe even today, you and Mr. Prlic have

14     been good friends; is that correct?

15        A.   Later on, I cooperated with Mr. Prlic in the government of the

16     city of Mostar, which was known as the Executive Board, of which he was

17     the president and I was the director of the finance or revenue

18     administration.  Our relationship during that period of time was mostly

19     official.  We did not socialise privately.

20        Q.   Let me interrupt you there for a moment, sir, with my apology.

21     During what period of time, again dates, what period of time was

22     Mr. Prlic the president of the Executive Board and you were the director

23     of the finance or revenue administration?  Can you give us dates for

24     that, as best you can, a start date and an end date?

25        A.   That was after 1986.  The term of office was for one year, the

Page 34103

 1     time, so I wouldn't be able to give you the exact year, but for one year

 2     he was the president of the city government.

 3        Q.   If we use 1986 as the time when you were involved in this

 4     socialist youth organisation, and then we know that you and Mr. Prlic

 5     took on certain positions in August 1992, so we're talking about a span

 6     of some six years, can you give us some better idea of when, during that

 7     time period, Mr. Prlic was the president of the Mostar Executive Board or

 8     Council?

 9        A.   I can't remember the year.  I know that he was in office for one

10     year, and then for two years it was Gojko Krsman, but I can't give you

11     the exact years.  That was the time when I stopped being with the youth

12     organisation, until 1990.  He went to Sarajevo after that and became

13     vice-president of the government there.  I can't give you any more

14     precise indication of the year.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  You were the mayor of Mostar

16     in the year 2000, you told us last week.  We have just discovered that

17     Mr. Prlic was the president of the Executive Board for the town of Mostar

18     in 1986, seemingly, or after 1986.  So before you, he had headed the

19     Municipality of Mostar; is that right?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, at the time he was the

21     president of the city government for one year.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  In other words, you held

23     similar positions, both of you, but you in the year 2000 and he more than

24     ten years prior to your time?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Similar, but the system changed and

Page 34104

 1     the office of mayor was introduced.  The system would be similar, but

 2     still different.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  This is what I had understood.

 4             MR. SCOTT:

 5        Q.   Sir, going back to my original question, with this additional

 6     explanation and some additional questions which I put to you, which I

 7     thank you for your answers, the original question that I put to you was:

 8     From that time forward, though, and we went back to the time that you

 9     were both involved in the socialist youth and related socialist

10     organisations that you've already discussed with us, from that time

11     forward you and Mr. Prlic have been business or political/governmental

12     associations and also good friends; correct?

13        A.   We were not good friends at that time.  We did not socialise

14     outside the --

15        Q.   My apologies to the witness and interpretation, but again time is

16     precious.  When did you become good friends with Mr. Prlic, because you

17     did become -- you are good friends with Mr. Prlic, sir, so approximately

18     when, and have you continued to be good friends with him?

19        A.   Correct.  That was after 1992, when he returned from America.

20     That's when I saw him, when he came to Mostar.  And since his family had

21     already left Mostar, he then moved together with two other friends and

22     started living in my apartment, and I --

23        Q.   Excuse me.  And is it fair to say, then, from at least 1992 and

24     would you consider to the present time, that is, till today, that you are

25     close friends with Mr. Prlic, notwithstanding the current circumstances?

Page 34105

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Now, you said that when you took over the office of finance

 3     department head in August 1992, that you found no documents, you found --

 4     could not find what we might call any work product by Mr. Prlic, there

 5     didn't seem to be an office, there really didn't seem to be much of

 6     anything, and lest the Chamber draw perhaps the wrong conclusion from

 7     that, let me try to clarify that with you.

 8             Do you mean to communicate to the Judges by that that Mr. Prlic

 9     was in effective or not doing anything at the time, or was it the case,

10     sir, in fact, that the HVO HZ-HB and its departments were not really

11     operational or doing much until Mr. Prlic became president of the HVO

12     HZ-HB in mid-August 1992?

13        A.   Up to then, the finance department was not really established, it

14     did not have a premises, it did not have manpower.

15             MR. SCOTT:  And just so the record is clear, Mr. President, and I

16     know that it will be corrected, but just so there's no confusion, in the

17     answer at page 25, line 22, the answer was:  "Correct ," the answer to

18     the previous question:  "Correct," and starting with the word "Now," of

19     course that starts the next question.  I just noticed that.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, my question to you is focusing more on

21     Mr. Prlic than the premises or the operation of the office.  Would you

22     say, in your experience, that Mr. Prlic is a very -- in fact, a very

23     competent, in fact, very talented administrator?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Would it be fair to say that Mr. Prlic is the type of person who

Page 34106

 1     we might say, and forgive me, I don't know if you have it in your

 2     language, but we might say the type of person who dots his "i"s and

 3     crosses his "t"s?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what he always tries to do, to dot his "i"s and cross

 5     his "t"s.

 6        Q.   In addition to his considerable capabilities, would it be fair to

 7     say -- would it be fair for the Judges to understand that Mr. Prlic,

 8     throughout this time period, was also a very ambitious man?

 9        A.   What period do you have in mind?

10        Q.   1992, through the 1990s, in fact even before that.  You indicated

11     he was the president of the Executive Council, then he was the

12     vice-president of the Bosnian government in the 1980s, early 1990s, then

13     he went to Sarajevo on business, then he came back, he became the

14     president of the HVO.  He took on subsequent senior positions as a pretty

15     young man; correct?

16        A.   Correct, yes.

17        Q.   Would it be fair for the Judges to understand that Mr. Prlic, in

18     addition to being very capable, was a very ambitious man?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, in your eyes is the

21     term "ambitious" a quality or not?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is good -- a good thing in a

23     person and a wish to achieve success in one's job.

24             MR. SCOTT:

25        Q.   And if we can just again try to work on the dates a bit.  I see

Page 34107

 1     something here that perhaps may assist us, if you agree or not.  In

 2     finding a date when Mr. Prlic was, in fact, the deputy prime minister of

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, if I suggested to you, based on some

 4     documentation, that that was from approximately 1989 to 1991, does that

 5     sound correct to you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   In addition to being very capable, ambitious, did you also find,

 8     in your dealings with Mr. Prlic, both as a friend, as a business

 9     colleague, as a political colleague, that he was rather adaptable to the

10     circumstances around him?

11        A.   Mr. Prlic, as an educated person, could adapt to the

12     circumstances that prevailed, and he could easily react to all of them.

13        Q.   Well, let me put it to you this way, sir:  Would it be fair to

14     say that when it was good to be a communist, Mr. Prlic was a good

15     communist; when it was a good to be a Croat nationalist, an HVO

16     president, he was that; and when it was later good to become a moderate,

17     then he held himself out as a moderate?

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  Objection to the form of the question.  These are

19     facts that have not been established.  Now, if he wants to go one by one,

20     he perhaps can ask an open-ended question, such as, "Was Mr. Prlic ever a

21     nationalist?"  So the question presumes facts which are not in evidence,

22     and I object to the form of the question.

23             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I think the question exactly asked the

24     witness to give the answer.  It is -- it's not a "yes" or "no" question,

25     necessarily.  It's for him to say -- I asked him a question about being

Page 34108

 1     adaptable, and the witness said:  "Yes.  In fact, as an educated person,

 2     Mr. Prlic could adapt to the circumstances that prevailed."  To simply

 3     illustrate my point, I asked the next question.  I believe the witness

 4     can answer the question.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Scott, I believe that your

 6     question is very complex.  It's a question that could have been broken

 7     down into several questions, because he can answer in the negative.  You

 8     can put the question to him again, if you like, and we'll see what he

 9     says.

10             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Let's perhaps come back to

11     it with some additional -- after some addition evidence has been covered.

12        Q.   The two of you during this time period, 1992, 1993, 1994, had

13     occasion to travel together when he was president of the HVO and you were

14     the head of the finance department?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And just as one example that I came across, the two of you

17     travelled to Zagreb together in March 1994 and, I believe, shared a room

18     at the Intercontinental Hotel in Zagreb during times when you were

19     meeting there with President Tudjman or the Croatian government; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes, but we did not share one room.  We each had our own room.

22        Q.   Well, perhaps you can turn to Exhibit P08138, and if we can pull

23     out the binders for perhaps the first time.  P08138, binder number 2.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  One moment, there's a

25     question.

Page 34109

 1             Judge Mindua.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I have a short

 3     question.

 4             I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the question you put to the

 5     witness.  You wanted to know whether the accused Prlic was an ambitious

 6     man.  Would this not be speculation, insofar as we have no objective

 7     facts to substantiate this?  For instance, whether this man was an

 8     educated man, that can be substantiated with facts.  But you did not

 9     pursue the matter.

10             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, we have a witness before us who's known

11     Mr. Prlic since the late -- since the 1980s, probably something at

12     least something like 30 years in a variety of contexts, and I believe

13     this witness in fact is an excellent person to give us his assessment and

14     comment on Mr. Prlic and the person he is.  So I'll leave the testimony

15     for the Chamber's consideration, of course.

16        Q.   Sir, if you can find -- and I don't mean to spend a lot of time

17     on it, but just since you mentioned it, if you can find Exhibit 8138.

18     And do you recall Mr. Susak's secretary, Ms. Zlojic [phoen], who I think

19     either at that time or later became the wife of Mr. Gotovina, who is also

20     on trial in this institution, do you recall Ms. Zlojic, Mr. Susak's

21     secretary, making -- booking for one room for you and Mr. Prlic at the

22     Intercontinental Hotel in March 1994?  That's one double room in your

23     hotel for 31 March and 1 April 1994 under the names of, 1,

24     Mr. Jadranko Prlic; number 2, Mr. Tomic.  Does that refresh your memory?

25        A.   I know that we were at the Intercontinental Hotel and that we had

Page 34110

 1     a double room each.

 2        Q.   All right.  Well, be that as it may, was that normally the way --

 3     when you would travel to Zagreb on business to meet with various

 4     government officials there, such as Mr. Tudjman, Mr. Susak and others,

 5     would the Croatian government arrange your hotel room and travel for you?

 6        A.   Sometimes we would bear our own cost, and during this particular

 7     period of time the Ministry of Defence had a location and a price

 8     agreement with the Hotel Intercontinental, so that we would only approach

 9     that ministry to reserve our rooms through them.

10             MR. SCOTT:  All right.  Mr. President, I see the time and I'm

11     about to change topics.  If that might be a time for a break.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We shall have a 20-minute

13     break.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Scott, you have the floor.

17     [No interpretation].

18             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Tomic, if we can go back for a moment to the locations in

20     Mostar, and I think we can do it without having the map.  That will save

21     a bit of time, perhaps.

22             Location number 2, you had indicated, was what we might call the

23     north edge -- the top -- or the top side of the map or the north edge.

24     Well, let me not confuse the issue by saying "north."  At the top of the

25     map as oriented as we were looking at it.  And you said the location was

Page 34111

 1     off the map.  Just so it's clear, can you tell us, what was the street

 2     address?  If you can't show it on the map, can you give us the

 3     approximate street address of the location that was off the map?

 4        A.   It was a small street which intersected with the street of

 5     Blajburg victims.  The street was so small that it only had four house

 6     numbers, approximately.

 7        Q.   And when you say "off the map," can you give us some idea, again

 8     for the future, are we talking about a hundred metres off the map, are we

 9     talking about a kilometre; how far off that map in that direction of your

10     arrow was that location?

11        A.   Looking at intersection denoted by number 2, it would be some 200

12     to 300 metres away from that intersection.

13        Q.   And finally, sir, on that point:  During the time when you and, I

14     understand, Mr. Prlic were living at location number 2, and given the

15     various locations -- your office locations also marked on the map, how

16     did you travel from the place that you were residing to the office

17     locations where you worked?

18        A.   I had a vehicle.  I had a driver as well.  He would drive me to

19     the place where my office was.

20        Q.   And was that true, to your knowledge, for Mr. Prlic as well?

21        A.   Yes, he also had a driver.

22        Q.   Now, going back to some of the positions that Mr. Prlic held at

23     various times, just before we move forward, after he was -- after he left

24     as the president or head of the Herceg-Bosna government, did he at some

25     point become the Minister of Defence in the Federation?

Page 34112

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Approximately when was that and how long, approximately, from

 3     date to date did he hold the position of Defence minister?

 4        A.   I believe that this was during the period from our arrival in

 5     Sarajevo, which was in mid-1994, after the Washington Agreement and the

 6     moment when the Federation government split from the government of the

 7     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   And as to that second event, you still can't recall approximately

 9     when that was, or can you?

10        A.   I believe that this was in mid-1994, if my memory serves me well.

11     I apologise.  It was in mid-1995.

12        Q.   All right.  Sir, in terms of this case, apart from Mr. Karnavas,

13     have you talked or met with anyone about your testimony in this case or

14     what you expected, before coming here, what you expected your testimony

15     would be?

16        A.   No.  I spoke to Mr. Karnavas and his team.

17        Q.   And have you met or spoken to any of the accused since this trial

18     began in April 2006?

19        A.   During their stay in Croatia, when they were provisionally

20     released, I met Mr. Pusic; only him, of the six of them.

21        Q.   All right.  Have you spoken to or met with Mr. Prlic during that

22     time period, since April 2006 to the present day?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And when was that, please?

25        A.   When he stayed, i.e., when he was provisionally released, I took

Page 34113

 1     an opportunity and visited him on one occasion just for one day.

 2        Q.   When, approximately, was that, sir, the best you can; month,

 3     year?

 4        A.   Every time when he went out, we would meet for a day.

 5        Q.   And you would meet for a day.  So you would spend a day together

 6     whenever Mr. Prlic would be provisionally released?

 7        A.   Those were mostly family visits around lunchtime or just for

 8     cakes and tea in the afternoon, so it would not take a whole day.  At the

 9     most, it would be a couple of hours.

10        Q.   All right.  So let me make sure I understand, sir.  Would it be

11     fair to say, then, and if I'm wrong, then I'm sure you'll say so, but

12     would it be accurate to say that on each occasion when Mr. Prlic has been

13     on provisional release in this case, whenever that has been, that you've

14     always spent some time with him during that time?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   When you have met with anyone in connection or on behalf of

17     Mr. Prlic, in connection with this case, has anyone, while talking to

18     you, taken any notes or operated any sort of recording device?

19        A.   I didn't have the opportunity of speaking to a lot of people

20     about this case.  I did speak to someone --

21        Q.   Let me assist you.  Now I'm talking about the group of people

22     working with Mr. Karnavas.  And I'm not asking you to tell us at this

23     moment anything -- let me be very clear.  I'm not asking you to tell us

24     anything about what Mr. Karnavas or his associates may have said or not

25     said to you.  But during any times when you were being questioned,

Page 34114

 1     meetings with you, interviewed, was anyone taking notes or operating any

 2     sort of recording device?

 3        A.   They mostly took notes.

 4        Q.   And have you ever signed anything that might be described as a

 5     statement or any sort of record of what you've said during a time that

 6     you were meeting with anyone acting on behalf of Mr. Prlic?  Did anyone

 7     later give you a recording or give you a statement and ask you to review

 8     it in any way and affirm it, in any way?  Whether you signed it or not,

 9     you said, "Yeah, that's what I said"?

10        A.   No, I didn't sign anything.

11        Q.   You indicated to Mr. Karnavas that in recent days, you had -- or

12     sometime -- strike that.  I'm not sure exactly when, but at some point

13     you provided him with approximately 54 documents.  What were the -- what

14     was the source of those documents?

15        A.   These were documents from my own private archives.

16        Q.   How large a private archive would you say you have?  Do you have

17     hundreds of documents, or just these 54, or how many documents from this

18     time period, 1992, 1993, 1994, how many documents do you have?

19        A.   I have the documents that I submitted.  These documents were ones

20     that had to do with the Council for Special Purposes, which did not have

21     an archives of its own.  Those documents, or some of them, remained with

22     me, at I was one of the coordinators within that council, and there was

23     some documents that have to do to the period that was subsequent to the

24     Washington Agreement and had to do with the negotiations between the

25     Croatian and Bosniak side with regard to establishing a financial system.

Page 34115

 1     These documents were in my possession.  I, in fact, don't have any other

 2     private documents.

 3        Q.   Excuse me, sorry.  I think we got the rest of your answer.  My

 4     apology.  Apart from the -- strike that.  When you say that you had these

 5     documents from back during the time, are these all documents that you had

 6     kept -- just you had kept them personally throughout this time period or

 7     were any of these documents provided to you by someone else?

 8        A.   These documents were ones that I had myself, on the whole, and no

 9     one gave them to me.

10        Q.   Did you meet with a man named Cvikl in December 2007?

11        A.   Yes, correct.

12        Q.   Where did you meet him?

13        A.   In Zagreb.

14        Q.   Who arranged that meeting?

15        A.   It was through Mr. Karnavas' office.

16        Q.   And how long would you say that you spent with Mr. Cvikl on this

17     occasion in December 2007?

18        A.   Three or four hours.

19        Q.   And during the time you were meeting with Mr. Cvikl, was anyone

20     else in the room or involved in these matters, or was it just the two of

21     you, you and Mr. Cvikl?

22        A.   Just the two of us.

23        Q.   And where did you actually meet, physically?  I know Zagreb, but

24     a hotel, an office, your home -- or, sorry, strike that, not your home,

25     but where?

Page 34116

 1        A.   Hotel Intercontinental, which is now called Hotel Westin.

 2        Q.   And during that time period, sir, I'll ask you a question similar

 3     to the one I asked you a few minutes ago.  Was Mr. Cvikl taking notes, or

 4     operating any sort of recording device, or making a record of his

 5     conversation with you during that three- to four-hour period, did you

 6     say?

 7        A.   He noted a few things on a piece of paper.

 8        Q.   And did you understand at the time, sir, when this was arranged,

 9     that Mr. Cvikl was apparently talking to you in connection with preparing

10     a report that would be given to the Judges in this case?

11        A.   Yes, that's what he told me.

12        Q.   Did you provide any documents to Mr. Cvikl?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Since you began giving your testimony at approximately 9.00 last

15     Monday morning, have you spoken with anyone about your testimony?  And I

16     mean anyone.

17        A.   Apart from my wife, no.

18        Q.   Apart from the documents that have been shown to you in the

19     courtroom, have you seen or looked at any materials or documents or notes

20     of any sort related to the subjects of your testimony since beginning

21     your testimony, other than what you've been shown in the courtroom?

22        A.   In the proofing session, I saw a certain number of documents.

23        Q.   All right.  And my particular question to you now, sir, is that:

24     After your testimony began last Monday, have you seen -- apart from the

25     documents that Mr. Karnavas or now myself or anyone else has shown you in

Page 34117

 1     the courtroom, have you looked at any other -- consulted any other

 2     materials or information outside the courtroom?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Going back to the time period that we've been talking about

 5     primarily today, that is, approximately mid-1992 until April -- excuse

 6     me, the end of 1993, excuse me, did you ever have any conversations or

 7     direct meetings or involvement with Mr. Izetbegovic?

 8        A.   Mr. Izetbegovic visited Mostar towards the end of 1992, I think,

 9     and on that occasion I met him.

10        Q.   Did you ever, apart from meeting him -- well, was that meeting

11     in -- are you considering that to be pretty much of a social occasion, in

12     terms of you were somewhere together, you introduced yourself and met

13     him, or were you participating in an actual, you know, meeting of some

14     sort together?

15        A.   He spent two days in Mostar, I believe, and on one day we had a

16     meeting in the headquarters of the HVO HZ-HB.  It was chaired by

17     Mr. Prlic.  Mr. Izetbegovic and his delegation attended that meeting on

18     that day or on the following day.  It was Bajram Muslim holiday, so we

19     also socialised on a private basis.  This, I think, was organised by the

20     Muslim organisation called Preporod or Rebirth.

21        Q.   And apart from that occasion then, sir, did you have any

22     communications or dealings with Mr. Izetbegovic during this period

23     mid-1992 to the end of 1993?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And I take it, sir, what I suspect the answer will be, but again

Page 34118

 1     just so the record is very clear:  Did you attend any meetings or

 2     sessions of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the period

 3     mid-1992 to the end of 1993?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you attend any meetings of the government of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina, if we might use the term "Cabinet," not the

 7     Presidency, but the group of people around the prime minister?  Did you

 8     have any occasion to attend any meeting or session of that group during

 9     the period mid-1992 to the end of 1993?

10        A.   I didn't attend any sessions.  I had contact with individual

11     members who would come to Mostar, and on one occasion there was a meeting

12     in the headquarters of the office of the government in Zagreb.

13        Q.   You attended that meeting, I take it, the one in the office of

14     the government, as you describe it, in Zagreb.

15        A.   Yes, on one occasion I was there.

16        Q.   Approximately when was that?

17        A.   I think it was towards the end of 1992.

18        Q.   And just so there's -- again so there's no confusion in the

19     future, when you say "the office of the government in Zagreb," I took

20     it -- I understood you to be saying this was some sort of office operated

21     by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb, not the Croatian

22     government.  Is that correct?

23        A.   Correct.  It was the office of -- the office of the government of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina in Zagreb.

25        Q.   In connection with your work with the HVO HZ-HB, was there

Page 34119

 1     something in the HVO method of working or process called a work

 2     programme?

 3        A.   There was no such programme in the form of a document at the

 4     beginning or initially; only later on.

 5        Q.   And later on, approximately when?

 6        A.   I think it was in 1993 or 1994.

 7        Q.   And who would prepare these programmes?  Sorry, my apologies.

 8     Let's go back for a step -- let's go back a step.

 9             What was the purpose of these programmes?

10        A.   Well, the departments had to present their activities for the

11     upcoming period and state what their financial needs were in order to

12     operate.

13        Q.   And so each department would prepare these programmes from time

14     to time?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   So, for example, in the finance department, you would prepare, or

17     someone working on your behalf, which perhaps you would ultimately

18     approval and sign, you or your staff would prepare a programme -- a work

19     programme for the finance department; is that correct?

20        A.   We prepared such a programme within the department.  I signed it

21     and then sent it to the HVO HZ-HB, which would then adopt a consolidated

22     programme, which we would then discuss.  And on the basis of this

23     programme, we could then see what the activities of other departments for

24     a given period were.

25        Q.   And was this done on an annual basis, a quarterly basis; how

Page 34120

 1     often would these programmes be prepared and submitted by each department

 2     to the HVO HZ-HB?

 3        A.   Initially, very seldom, every three months, but I believe that

 4     the first real programme was drawn up for 1994, and it included a budget

 5     as an integral part of that programme.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, going back -- going back for a moment, before we

 7     turn to some other topics, to your history with Mr. Prlic.  Have you and

 8     Mr. Prlic ever been involved in business together or any business

 9     ventures, investors in the same projects?  Have you conducted business or

10     been investors together during the time of your friendship?

11        A.   No, we were never co-investors in the business sense.

12        Q.   So, for example, are you saying, sir, that the two of you have

13     never been involved in business together or invested together, for

14     example, in businesses dealing with oil?

15        A.   Never.

16        Q.   Did you ever have anything to do with a company called Interina

17     Mostar?

18        A.   It's a branch firm of Ina in Zagreb, which provided Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina with oil.

20        Q.   And did either you and/or Mr. Prlic have any dealings,

21     investments, involvement in that company?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   You said a few moments ago that you met with Mr. Prlic, if I

24     understand correctly, on each occasion -- or have met with him on each

25     occasion when he's been on provisional release.  Do you recall

Page 34121

 1     approximately the last time you met with Mr. -- or spent time with

 2     Mr. Prlic while released?

 3        A.   This summer in Makarska.

 4        Q.   The summer of 2008, to be accurate?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And you mentioned on one occasion, if I'd heard correctly, that

 7     you'd also met Mr. Pusic.  Approximately what date was that?

 8        A.   I met Mr. Pusic this summer, too.

 9        Q.   And where?

10        A.   In the Westin Hotel in Zagreb.

11        Q.   All right.  And maybe I heard correctly or maybe I didn't.  Is

12     that the only time you've met Mr. Pusic or have you met him on other

13     occasions?

14        A.   We also met when he was there on one previous occasion.

15        Q.   Where?

16        A.   In a cafe in Zagreb.

17        Q.   And approximately when was that?

18        A.   I couldn't say precisely.  I know that I was there with my two

19     children.  I just came to greet him because I was going on a trip.  But

20     as to when that was exactly, I don't know.

21        Q.   Concerning the Mostar Crisis Staff, although Mr. Karnavas did

22     indeed ask you the question several times, I'm not sure that we ever

23     really got a full answer.  You were a member of the Mostar Crisis Staff

24     in May 1992; correct?

25        A.   Yes, I was an associated member.

Page 34122

 1        Q.   What does it mean to be an associated member?

 2        A.   Well, it means that the Crisis Staff designated me and my

 3     colleague, Kazazic, to deal with certain activities in the sphere of

 4     finance.

 5        Q.   Sir, during that time, on behalf of the HVO, what was the HVO or

 6     the HDZ, whichever of these organisations you want to refer to at that

 7     time, you were the principal organiser of finances during that time

 8     period; correct?  I mean, you weren't just an associated member.  You

 9     were the finance man, weren't you?

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I think the question is

11     rather unclear.  Are we still during the period of the Crisis Staff, when

12     he was appointed by Gagro and others?

13             MR. SCOTT:  During that -- sorry, excuse me, Mr. Karnavas.  Yes,

14     that's correct, Mr. President, that's the time I was referring to, in

15     reference to the Crisis Staff.

16        Q.   You were the principal person dealing with finances during that

17     time, weren't you?

18        A.   No.  The principal person was a member of the Crisis Staff,

19     Mrs. Bulka [phoen].  She was the secretary for Finance for the Mostar

20     municipality before the Crisis Staff was established, and she became a

21     member of the Crisis Staff.  I and my colleague Kazazic were subsequently

22     appointed, because the financial sphere wasn't functioning properly.  We

23     were engaged for special operations that had to do with the public

24     accounting service at the time.  I wasn't the main person dealing with

25     finance.  I had been appointed by the Crisis Staff to deal with certain

Page 34123

 1     matters.

 2        Q.   So that we have it correctly in the record, it may be that

 3     it's -- it may be that it is, but "Bulka," can you spell Ms. Buljko's

 4     last name, please?

 5        A.   B-U-L-J-K-O.  Correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  All right.  Well, I'm just wondering, then.

 7     Did she continue to be the principal finance person, then, throughout the

 8     summer and fall of 1992 or did you take on that position or

 9     responsibility at some point during that time period?

10        A.   In August, I was appointed as the head of the finance department

11     of the HVO HZ-HB.  From the time when the Crisis Staff fell apart, well,

12     at that time I was a member of the Council for Special Purposes, whose

13     task it was to protect property, to administer property and companies, in

14     the sense of establishing the preconditions for defence and for supplying

15     the population and staff members of companies.  This body didn't have an

16     administrative character, in the sense of administering of public

17     finances.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go forward, then, to the time when you became

19     the head of the finance department.  Let me just take us through some

20     things and see if we can -- if we can avoid going to all the documents,

21     we will try to do that.

22             The HVO HZ-HB was set up and functioned with a number of

23     departments in the government, is that correct; Defence, Finance,

24     Interior?  There were a number of departments that were -- that reported

25     to the HVO HZ-HB; correct?

Page 34124

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And, in fact, the HVO HZ-HB consisted of or was comprised of the

 3     president, vice-presidents, the department heads and potentially other

 4     members; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   So during the second half of 1992, that included, among others,

 7     Mr. Prlic, as president, Mr. Stojic, as head of the defence department,

 8     and yourself as head of the finance department; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And the head of each department was responsible for the work of

11     that department; correct?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And you reported -- as the head of each department, you reported

14     and were accountable to the HVO HZ-HB; is that right?

15        A.   We submitted reports, programmes and reports on the work -- on

16     our work to the HVO HZ-HB and to the Presidency of the HZ-HB.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just a minor intervention, Your Honour, for future

18     purposes.  The previous question was compound, and of course it's very

19     difficult to say "yes" or "no".  You know, reported, accounted, now,

20     those are two different aspects, so I would kindly ask that we go, you

21     know, one fact per declarative statement with the inflection, thus making

22     it a leading question, as opposed to making it compound.

23             Thank you.

24             MR. SCOTT:  I'll try to do better, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Sir, would you agree that -- and I'm referring to some of the HVO

Page 34125

 1     documentation at the time, if anyone wants to look at it.  I'm referring

 2     to P00303, 3 July 1992, amended statutory decision on the organisation of

 3     the executive body.  But you would agree, wouldn't you, that it was the

 4     HVO HZ-HB which was to regulate the work of each department; correct?

 5     Correct?

 6        A.   There are decisions that determine what the work of each

 7     department is.

 8        Q.   Sir, the HVO regulated the activities, structure, operational

 9     framework and powers of the departments; correct?

10        A.   Departments had authority on the basis of decisions on

11     establishing these departments.

12        Q.   The HVO supervised the work of the departments, and the HVO had

13     the ability to annul or abolish anything that a department did; correct?

14        A.   The department tabled proposals, and they were autonomous in

15     their proposal submission.  The HVO discussed the proposals, and as a

16     result the texts were corrected and amended, and finally if the head of

17     the department was in agreement with the corrections, the proposal that

18     was tabled was voted on, and that's how our regulations were passed in

19     the HVO HZ-HB.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, let's go to Exhibit P00303, then.  It should be

21     in the first binder, sir, and it will be tabbed hopefully for you in

22     numerical order.

23             And I believe, sir, if it will assist you or orient you, I don't

24     know if they are organised in a similar fashion in Mr. Karnavas'

25     documents or not, but you'll find the English translation on top and then

Page 34126

 1     you'll find the Croatian language version behind it.  If you could find

 2     303.  And once you've done that, could you please turn to

 3     Article number 6 or find Article number 6.

 4             Article 6 provides, does it not:

 5             "The HVO shall regulate the activities, structure, operational

 6     framework and powers of its departments in accordance with regulations

 7     passed by the Presidency"; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   And turning to Article 14:

10             "The HVO shall supervise the work of its departments and

11     municipal HVOs.  The HVO may use its supervisory power to annul or

12     abolish individual legal acts passed by the bodies referred to in the

13     foregoing paragraph."

14             Do you recall any occasion in which the HVO annulled or abolished

15     any act taken by the finance department during the time when you were

16     head of the finance department?  Not "didn't approve" in the sense of

17     initial proposals were put on the table, there was a vote, they were

18     voted up or down, but once something -- you had done something, you had

19     taken some action, you had taken a step on something, you had made a

20     departmental decision, do you recall any occasion when the HVO annulled

21     or abolished or, if you will, undid that action?

22        A.   As far as I can remember, there was just once when a municipal

23     decision was discussed.  I can't remember which municipality it was.  And

24     that's the only thing that I can remember within that particular context.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tomic.  Let me go back and clarify my question,

Page 34127

 1     although you certainly anticipated another question, in any event.

 2             Focusing for a moment on the Department of Finance, the

 3     department that you were the head of, do you recall any acts or decisions

 4     of your department that were abolished or undone by the HVO HZ-HB?

 5        A.   No, I can't remember.

 6        Q.   You can't remember that there ever was one or you can't remember

 7     one way or the other?

 8        A.   I can't remember a decision which was annulled.  I should say the

 9     HVO, of its own will, annulled a decision.  If a department proposed

10     something, it was a correction or a change of a decision which the HVO

11     then adopted.  But for the HVO to raise an issue on its own initiative

12     and to annul a decision, I can't remember.

13             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with a bit of

14     reservation, because I don't know whether this is due to interpretation

15     or recording error, my learned friend read paragraph 14.2, where it says:

16             [In English] "Annul or abolish individual legal act,"

17     individual -- [Interpretation] "Individual" is the operative word here

18     which has to be stressed.  According to our traditional administrative

19     doctrine, there are the so-called general administrative acts like a

20     decision decree, something that applies to a wide range of subjects, and

21     there are also individual administrative acts or documents which apply to

22     a very specific legal person, i.e., to the existence or non-existence of

23     the rights of a certain person.

24             Paragraph 2 regulates individual administrative documents or

25     documents that apply to individuals.  That's what my learned friend has

Page 34128

 1     just warned me to something that is the literal wording in the text.  So

 2     the situation is entirely different here.  We cannot apply this to HZ-HB

 3     deciding on a decree that they themselves passed or its department or

 4     municipality.  That is according to paragraph 1.  However, we are now

 5     discussing paragraph 2.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Kovacic, you are currently

 7     testifying.

 8             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to explain in order

 9     to put a correct and fair question to the witness.  My learned friend

10     Scott is not a Croatian lawyer and he does not know the system, and the

11     witness himself cannot understand the system because he is not a lawyer.

12     I just wanted to explain things.  I believe that in your states, given

13     the tradition, there is a system division when it comes to administrative

14     documents.  That's as far as I can remember from my school days.  I just

15     wanted to remind you of these things.

16             However, the fact that my learned friend is putting questions to

17     the witness about paragraph 2, i.e., the individual documents and at the

18     same time he is talking about general documents pertaining to

19     paragraph 2, this is confusing.  This is not the way to do things.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Scott.

21             MR. SCOTT:

22        Q.   Sir, if you'll look at Article 13, you'll agree that it provides:

23             "The HVO has the right and duty to annul a regulation passed by a

24     department or other administrative body which is detrimental to the

25     general interest or which contravenes established policy or positive

Page 34129

 1     law."

 2             Do you see that and, secondly, did you understand that to be, in

 3     fact, the power of the HVO?

 4        A.   Yes, this defines certain powers.  For example, if I, as a

 5     department head, issue an instruction contrary to the instructions passed

 6     by the HZ-HB, in keeping with this article the HZ-HB is allowed to annul

 7     such a regulation.  However, I don't remember any such thing ever having

 8     happened in my practice.  I can't remember that.

 9        Q.   If you look, please, next at Article number 9, the same document,

10     it provides, does it not:

11             "The HVO president shall be in charge of the work of the HVO,"

12     that is, Mr. Prlic, "and shall be held accountable for it.  He shall

13     ensure the unity of the political and administrative activities of the

14     HVO, cooperate with other bodies and organisations of the HZ-HB, and

15     direct the activities of the HVO as a whole and its members

16     as individuals."

17             So when you filed these reports and, among other things that you

18     talked about a few moments ago, these departmental documents that would

19     be prepared, for example, they would ultimately go to, among others, to

20     Mr. Prlic as president; correct?

21        A.   Yes, they are addressed to the office of the president and, as

22     such, they were delivered to his office.

23        Q.   In Article 7, the second clause, it says:

24             "The Presidency of the HZ-HB," and I think everyone in the

25     courtroom knows that's referring to the legislative body:  "The

Page 34130

 1     Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss the other members," and

 2     this is a section talking about the composition of the HVO, "at the

 3     proposal of the HVO president."

 4             So would you agree, sir, that Mr. Prlic had the ability, he had

 5     the power, to propose the appointment and dismissal of other members of

 6     the HVO HZ-HB?

 7        A.   Well, this is as per Article 7.

 8        Q.   And just as an example, to your -- during the time that you were

 9     a member of the HVO HZ-HB, did Mr. Prlic ever propose the dismissal of

10     Mr. Stojic as head of the Department of Defence?

11        A.   I don't know anything about that.

12        Q.   You don't know anything or, to your knowledge, that never

13     happened?  Mr. Prlic, to your knowledge, never proposed the dismissal of

14     Mr. Stojic as head of the defence department; correct?

15        A.   I don't know about that.

16        Q.   During the time from August 1992 to August 1993, did Mr. Prlic

17     propose the dismissal of any department head?

18        A.   I know that the secretary of the HVO was replaced.

19        Q.   When was that?

20        A.   In late 1992, I believe, the gentleman who did not perform

21     properly or according to expectations.

22        Q.   Who was that, sir, by name, please?

23        A.   Mr. Ivan Tomic.

24        Q.   Any relation?

25        A.   No.

Page 34131

 1        Q.   And your understanding is that Mr. Ivan Tomic is removed from his

 2     position as secretary of the HVO because of, essentially, incompetence or

 3     ineffectiveness?

 4        A.   Yes, there were objections by several departments, and a

 5     particular problem was the fact that he did not organise the publication

 6     of the Official Gazette.  As a result of those objections, he was

 7     dismissed from that position.

 8        Q.   So the HVO HZ-HB did have the power and at least on one occasion

 9     did have the ability to remove and dismiss people from positions;

10     correct?

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, can we be a little more specific?

12     "People," you know, we're talking about a secretary versus a department

13     head, so perhaps --

14             MR. SCOTT:  Anyone.

15        Q.   Anyone, sir.  We went over the last few minutes that the

16     department heads report to the HVO, that they file reports, that they're

17     accountable to the HVO, and we indicated that the Presidency, in

18     Article 7, the second clause, you may recall, sir, provided that the

19     Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss the other members of

20     the HVO government at the proposal of the president.  Now, other members

21     of the HVO government are, among others, the department heads; correct?

22        A.   I was talking about a procedure to dismiss the secretary.  The

23     HVO had appointed the secretary, and as a result of objections by

24     departments, he was dismissed.  I don't know of any situation in which

25     heads of departments or members of the HVO were treated in the same way,

Page 34132

 1     because the secretary of the HVO was not a member of the HVO.  He was

 2     just an administrative officer on behalf of the HVO.

 3        Q.   Well, let's go back to Article 7 of P00303.  Article 7 provides:

 4             "The HVO shall be comprised of:  The president, vice-presidents,

 5     department heads and other members."

 6             Who was included in "and other members"?

 7        A.   Heads of sub-departments, because there were also sub-departments

 8     as a category.  For example, the sub-department for education, culture

 9     and sports.  It was a sub-department.  However, its head was a member of

10     the HVO.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, building on all that, sir, and perhaps as some

12     clarification I come back to a similar question to one I asked you a few

13     minutes ago:  To your knowledge, sir, during the period from August 1992

14     until the end of 1993, did the HVO president, Mr. Prlic, propose, as

15     provided in Article 7, the dismissal of any member of the HVO HZ-HB,

16     including any of the department heads?

17        A.   I don't know that this happened.

18        Q.   Let's go to document P09530, which will be the last document in

19     binder number 2.  P09530.  These are the rules of procedure of the HVO

20     HZ-HB that were put in place, apparently, in November -- at least by

21     November 1992, according to the first page.  In fact, I believe they were

22     actually signed by Mr. Prlic on the last page on the 14th of October,

23     1992.

24             Sir, if I can direct your attention, please, to Article 8, and

25     the document is such that there is -- there's another decision on the

Page 34133

 1     front of it, Your Honour, just the way the documents were compiled.  But

 2     when you get down to page 3, you will get to the rules of procedure of

 3     the Croatian Defence Council of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

 4             And in that document, sir, if you can go to Article number 8.  I

 5     asked you earlier about the programmes of work, and this is a section

 6     actually going up to Article 7 in the section, it's called "Programming

 7     of Work," and it says:

 8             "The programme of work shall be adopted by the HVO.  The

 9     president and the secretary of the HVO shall supervise the implementation

10     of the programme of the HVO."

11             Article number 9:

12             "The bodies of the HVO shall be bound to implement the programme

13     of work and monitor its execution.  In case of their failure to execute

14     the tasks set by the programme of work, the bodies of the HVO shall be

15     bound to submit a timely report on the reasons for the failure to the

16     president of the HVO."

17             Now, these programmes -- these programmes were, in fact, being

18     submitted as early as the end of 1992 and early 1993, weren't they?

19        A.   When it comes to finance, we drafted monthly or quarterly budget

20     proposals, and in the second half of the year 1993, was the realistic

21     time for the preparation of these programmes.  The book of rules was

22     issued towards the end of October 1992, and it clearly defines

23     everything.  In other words, we submitted the programme of work for our

24     respective departments, as their heads, and we submitted those to the

25     HVO, who then issued a consolidated/coordinated programme of work and

Page 34134

 1     monitored its execution.  And if my department was not in a position to

 2     secure the finances in time, I was duty-bound to inform the HVO about

 3     that.  This served for the other departments that were tied with the

 4     Department of Finance to be able to adjust the rate of their activities.

 5     In other words, no money, no reconstruction of a facility building, and

 6     that then had to be moved forward to another period, and so on and so

 7     forth.

 8        Q.   Is it correct, sir, that the other departments, just like the

 9     finance department, to the best of your knowledge, proceeded on the same

10     basis; they prepared programmes, work programmes, and which were

11     submitted to the HVO, and made reports to the HVO, and indeed were

12     accountable to the HVO; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Excuse me.  In Exhibit 9530, if we go to Article 47, which is

15     quite a bit further down into the document, please -- excuse me, my

16     apologies.  I've sent you to the wrong place, but it's close.  Not so

17     close.

18             Article 13.  My apologies to everyone.  If you go back to

19     Article 13, sir, page 6 of the English version, actually then carrying

20     over to the top of page 7, the second item on page 7 says:

21             "The opinion of the Department of Finance relative to the

22     necessary funds, sources, and the manner in which the enforcement of the

23     regulations and other enactments will be funded."

24             Now, this was an opinion, as I understand it, that was required

25     in connection with any sort of proposed decision or policy coming before

Page 34135

 1     the HVO HZ-HB.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   For each document, for each rule that involved cost or revenues,

 3     an opinion had to be obtained from the Ministry of Finance or Department

 4     of Finance.

 5        Q.   Could we characterize that as something like a financial impact

 6     statement, that it was -- if a particular decision or action was

 7     proposed, it was up to the Department of Finance to determine how that

 8     decision or action or programme would affect the financial capacity of

 9     the HVO?

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Mr. Scott.  I'm slightly lost.  Could

11     you indicate again where, exactly, you are quoting from?

12             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm sorry.  My apologies.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Page 5.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Page -- I'm at the top of page 7 of page 9530, in

15     Article 13, and the language I was referring to a few moments ago was the

16     opinion that would be rendered by the Department of Finance.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I must rule in favour of Mr. Karnavas.  I find

18     this is page 5 in the document I have before me.

19             MR. SCOTT:  All right.  Maybe we've got --

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  "L 0024396" on the top.

21             MR. SCOTT:  We must have different page numbers.  I apologise for

22     that.  If we're looking at Article -- can we find -- can we agree that

23     we're looking at Article 13?

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes.

25             MR. SCOTT:  Well, I don't know what happened.  I must have a

Page 34136

 1     different translation.  My apologies.  My Article 13 is on page 6 and 7,

 2     and my apologies to the courtroom for that.

 3        Q.   But under Article 13, there is a beginning paragraph which says:

 4     "The documents shall be submitted."  Then there are three what might be

 5     called bullet items under that, the opinion of the Commission for

 6     Regulations, the opinion of the Department of Finance, the opinion of the

 7     Department of Justice and Administration, and I'm focusing on the opinion

 8     of the Department of Finance, and I apologise for the confusion.

 9             So going back to my question, sir, is this something that

10     essentially your department was responsible for, some decision or action

11     would be proposed, and you had to assess the financial impact on the HVO,

12     where the funds would come from, how this would be carried out

13     financially; is that correct?  Is that what this is about?

14        A.   This is regulated by Article 13.

15        Q.   Yes.  And what I just put to you, sir, is that a proper

16     description of what this is really about?  Some action or policy would be

17     proposed, and it was up to your department to do some sort of financial

18     analysis as to the financial impacts of such decision or action on the

19     HVO, where the funding would come from, et cetera?  Is that what this is

20     talking about?

21        A.   This was a customary procedure for passing regulations, and

22     that's how it was incorporated in the document.  However, in practice,

23     the letter of the document was not followed through fully.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll eventually come to some additional

25     documents on that.

Page 34137

 1             Now, if you could go in the Defence binder -- binder of Defence

 2     exhibits, which is the fourth binder -- it's a smaller binder, and I

 3     don't know if it's labelled binder number 4, but the fourth binder, which

 4     is 1D 02136.

 5             Sir, this is a document that I believe we looked at earlier, if

 6     I'm not mistaken, last week.  Just related to what we were just talking

 7     about, was it also part of the responsibility of your department to make

 8     financial projections, if you will, as to the revenues or funds that

 9     would be collected and available to the HVO government for conducting its

10     operations, and is that reflected on 1D 02136?

11        A.   Well, in accordance with the decree on the budget for the HZ-HB,

12     the finance department had to secure the funds for the functioning of the

13     department, and in accordance with that decree the departments needed to

14     submit their requests on a monthly basis and every three months.  We're

15     still discussing a period during which there wasn't an entire budget for

16     the HZ-HB.  We had monthly plans and quarterly plans.

17             Here we have a conclusion from a period when there were

18     additional obstructions in municipalities for paying revenue into the

19     budget, after the conflict broke out between the Muslims and the Croats,

20     and on that occasion I reported to the HVO HZ-HB and informed them that

21     funds weren't being found.  And this conclusion, in fact, confirmed our

22     duty.  It's all in the law on the budget.  But given the situation, this

23     just emphasised the fact again.

24        Q.   It's correct, is it not, and you testified about this last week,

25     that the various department heads would bring their financial needs to

Page 34138

 1     the HVO HZ-HB, including Mr. Stojic on behalf of the Department of

 2     Defence, and among other things, each department head would brief, if you

 3     will, inform the HVO HZ-HB about the work of its department -- of his or

 4     her department and situations they were involved in; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And in terms of financing, this particular document 1D 02136

 7     relates to defence financing, would it be fair to say that that

 8     includes -- I'm talking about financing defence, that includes such

 9     things as logistics?

10        A.   Yes, financial sources run out and for defence needs, well, it

11     was necessary to assess the revenue coming in for the following month.

12        Q.   But apart from revenue, when you look at such things as

13     logistics, that would include such things as -- well, in the military

14     context, that would include such things as manpower, wouldn't it,

15     personnel?  You can't have an army without soldiers, can you?

16        A.   Well, funds were allocated to the defence department.  Funds were

17     allocated up until the budget was established.  And as I said, the first

18     budget, which clearly specified what would be allocated to staff for

19     material needs, for special purposes, well, the first budget was for

20     1994, the first such budget.  During this period, funds were allocated to

21     the defence department, and they used these funds in accordance with

22     their programme and needs.

23        Q.   Sir, you testified last Wednesday that the usual thing -- the

24     usual way how things are done is that through financing and logistics,

25     there is civilian control over the army.  Civilian control over an army

Page 34139

 1     is established and exercised largely through its control over financing

 2     and logistics; correct?

 3        A.   We financed the defence department, so it comprised a number of

 4     sectors, all of which represented the way in which that department

 5     functioned.

 6        Q.   And that was one of the ways -- some of the important ways, sir,

 7     is it not correct, that the HVO HZ-HB exercised power and control over

 8     the departments, including the Department of Defence, was through such

 9     things as financing and logistics; correct?

10        A.   Through the working programme and the report on work.  These were

11     the means that the HVO HZ-HB could use to influence certain departments,

12     and that included the Department of Defence.

13        Q.   Well, let me just come back to your statement last week, sir.  Do

14     you still agree today, as you said last week, that two of the ways that a

15     civilian government controls the military is by its control of such

16     things as financing and logistics?  You agree, don't you?  Sir?

17        A.   I apologise.  Just a minute.  Yes.

18        Q.   Could you look, please, next at Exhibit P09063.  That will be in

19     binder number 2, P09063.

20             Sir, just coming to this topic, and I'm trying to, in the

21     interests of time, not go through all the documents that we could,

22     because we'd never have time, unfortunately, to do that, but I did have a

23     couple of questions to you about this document, if you have P09063.

24     Looking over your shoulder, sir, I don't think you have it yet.  P09063

25     in binder number 2.  Sorry for the confusion.  It's a copy of Mr. Prlic's

Page 34140

 1     business card which another witness had provided to us in this case that

 2     she had obtained back during the time of 1992-1993.  Just a couple of

 3     questions about that card.

 4             Of course, Mr. Prlic is described -- or gives the title of

 5     president of the HVO HZ-HB.  There's two telephone numbers listed.  Did

 6     you ever use those two telephone numbers to call Mr. Prlic or communicate

 7     with Mr. Prlic during 1993?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And there's also a fax number there, did you ever -- do you

10     recall whether you or your staff, if you will, ever communicated with

11     Mr. Prlic's office during 1993 by fax?

12        A.   I don't think so.

13        Q.   And there's also a listed mobile telephone number, 099-470-508.

14     With that in mind, can I ask you, first of all, did you have a mobile

15     phone back at the time 1992-1993?

16        A.   At some point in time in 1993, yes.

17        Q.   And were you able to use that to communicate with people in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Excuse me, could we be a little more specific?

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina is a pretty large place, and it's divided at this

21     time, so are we talking about areas in the Republika Srpska, Sarajevo?

22             MR. SCOTT:  Everywhere.  My question was intentionally broad.

23        Q.   Could you call -- you can correct me or limit your answer however

24     you wish.  Could you communicate with people throughout Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina by your mobile phone during that time period?

Page 34141

 1        A.   We could use mobile phones only to phone outside of Mostar,

 2     because in Mostar there was no signal for mobile phones to use.

 3        Q.   And what was the coverage area outside of Mostar, sir?

 4        A.   Well, mostly it included the territory of Herzegovina, and from

 5     Herzegovina it was possible to phone Croatia, Slovenia, Europe.

 6        Q.   And to your knowledge, do you recall using this number for

 7     Mr. Prlic from time -- the mobile number 099-470-508, did you have

 8     occasion to call Mr. Prlic on that mobile number from time to time?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   Could you please go to Exhibit P00824, which will be in the first

11     binder.  P00824.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just add a little question to the previous

13     one.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Of course.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Tomic, could you also call Sarajevo with a

16     mobile phone?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Mr. Scott, that was all.

19             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you.  Thank you, Judge Trechsel.

20             Sir --

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a minute.

22             Mr. Praljak.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  Your Honour

24     Judge Antonetti, I believe there is something that isn't quite precise

25     here.  The witness said:  "We could only call outside of Mostar."  I

Page 34142

 1     believe one should clarify whether they could phone from Mostar or

 2     whether they had to go outside of Mostar to do that, because outside of

 3     Mostar means --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I think the answer was very

 5     clear.  The witness told us that he could not call Sarajevo.  However,

 6     Witness, with your cellphone, could you call abroad?  I guess you could,

 7     and you could call from Mostar and surrounding; is that what you said?

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, I had understood Mr. Praljak's question

 9     in a different way.  Mr. Praljak wanted to know whether it was possible

10     to call from Mostar, and I think the witness has clearly said in Mostar

11     you couldn't use it, you had to go outside.  That's -- it's clear, okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  In Mostar, well,

13     the technology was quite new at the time.  You could capture the signal

14     in Herzegovina, and Mostar is in a valley, so we had to leave Mostar in

15     order to phone.  In Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Sarajevo, this technology

16     hadn't been set up yet.  The communications network had been destroyed

17     and it was not possible to use this new technology to phone Sarajevo,

18     because at a given point in time the signal has to go down to the ground

19     and then use regular telephone lines, which at the time had been

20     destroyed.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  It's clear, then, rather than

22     calling Mr. Prlic, that would have forced you to leave Mostar, and he

23     would have had to be out of Mostar, too.  It was easier just to go see

24     him, visit him, or use the regular phone line?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in Mostar, after part of the

Page 34143

 1     capacity had been repaired, after some of the equipment had been

 2     repaired, it was possible to phone from office to office.  But in order

 3     to use mobile phones, we had to, for example, both be outside of Mostar

 4     so that we could communicate with each other, because there was no signal

 5     for those mobile phones in Mostar.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  It's clear.  Thank you.

 7             It's time for the break also, Mr. Scott.  Twenty minutes.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The court is back in session.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Tomic, before the break we were looking -- or we were just

13     beginning to look at, I believe, P00824, and just a couple of points.

14     And I'll tell you now -- I'll forecast what I'm going to ask you, and

15     that is:  If this is just -- this and another document or two that we're

16     going to look at gives us an idea of the type of business that came

17     before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular basis.  For example, in this set of

18     minutes from the 27th of November, 1992, and if I can ask you to turn to

19     item number 9, and the English version is the top of the third page and I

20     hope it's the same translation, but it's item number 9 in any event, for

21     example, it says:

22             "Draft decision on the refugees and expelled and displaced

23     persons office is submitted by the HVO HZ-HB Secretariat.  The decision

24     was adopted unanimously."

25             Item 10:

Page 34144

 1             "The head of the HVO HZ-HB finance department, N. Tomic,

 2     nominates Drago Bagaric, a qualified economist from Begonja, for director

 3     of the HVO HZ-HB customs administration, and Miljenko Karacici is

 4     appointed the acting director of the HZ-HB Official Gazette.  The stated

 5     proposals were unanimously adopted."

 6             Now, is that -- are those fair examples of the kind of business

 7     that came before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular basis; approval of decisions

 8     or programmes, personnel appointments, that sort of thing?

 9        A.   Item 9 states that the HVO took a decision on establishing an

10     office for refugees.  It was under the Presidency of the HVO HZ-HB, which

11     didn't really hold a session.  Item 10 has to do with appointing

12     lower-ranking individuals in the department, as suggested by the head of

13     the department.  Appointments were to be made by the HVO HZ-HB at its

14     session, and that was done.  In the case of the customs administration

15     and in the case of the Gazette.

16        Q.   If you go toward the end of the document, and in the English

17     version it will be the top of page 5, you can see the end of the

18     document, sir, and go up approximately three paragraphs, just one other

19     example I'd like to show you to -- to show to you because it relates to

20     the finance department.  It says:

21             "At the proposal of the head of the HVO HZ-HB finance department,

22     N. Tomic, a unanimous decision was adopted on the manner of allotment of

23     financial aid to the municipal HVOs in Central Bosnia."

24             Again my question to you:  Is that representative of the sort of

25     the financial business that would come before the HVO HZ-HB on a regular

Page 34145

 1     basis?

 2        A.   Up until the time that a budget was adopted for the HZ-HB, funds

 3     were allocated on the basis of decisions that were prepared by

 4     departments, at the request of individual departments or users, and it

 5     was done in accordance with funds available.  Decisions on the matter

 6     would then be taken by the HVO HZ-HB.  If there was a budget, an

 7     organised budget, it would have been done automatically as the budget was

 8     adopted.  But since such document was not in existence, individual

 9     decisions had to be taken.

10        Q.   Could you go, please, to 1D -- it's in the fourth smaller binder

11     in the Defence exhibits, 1D 01669.  1D 01669.  And while you're looking

12     for that, sir, this is a set of minutes from the HVO HZ-HB meeting on the

13     5th of July, 1993, as always listing those in attendance, including, for

14     example, Mr. Prlic, Mr. Zubak, Mr. Stojic, Mr. Tomic, Mr. Buntic,

15     Mr. Perkovic, Mr. Palameta, et cetera, and again some particular items I

16     just want you to take a quick look at.

17             Item number 6 on the bottom of page 2 of the English version, but

18     in any event, sir, if you can find item number 6:

19             "The draft decree to establish a commission for the exchange of

20     prisoners and other persons was submitted by the Secretariat.  Following

21     a decision involving the participation of Mr. Maric, Mr. Saric and

22     B. Pusic, the following was concluded:"

23             And then we see action taken following that, including the

24     appointment of Berislav Pusic as head of the service.  So you would agree

25     with me, sir, this is another example of the HVO HZ-HB carrying out its

Page 34146

 1     personnel powers in the appointment of Mr. Pusic to the head of this

 2     body; correct?

 3        A.   This is a decision that was taken because the Presidency of the

 4     HZ-HB wasn't functioning.  The initial commission was appointed by

 5     Mr. Boban before, so this decision was taken in order to establish its

 6     structure because it was only formed by individual members, and in this

 7     decision its authority was specified and Mr. Pusic was appointed as the

 8     head of that body.

 9        Q.   As another example, going further down to item number 7, item 1,

10     item 7, number 1, it says:

11             "Mr. Z. Buntic shall once again request from Mr. A. Markotic a

12     report on the demographic situation in the HZ-HB."

13             Could you explain to the Judges, please, what the interest of the

14     HVO HZ-HB was in the demographics in Herceg-Bosna?

15        A.   As far as I can remember, I think it had to do with the

16     implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan.

17        Q.   And do you recall, in fact, receiving a report after -- sometime

18     the 5th of July from Mr. Markotic on the demographic situation in

19     Herceg-Bosna?

20        A.   I can't remember.  I know that he worked on maps and that he was

21     a professor of demographics.

22        Q.   Well, my -- very well, but my question to you -- so, sorry, you

23     don't remember one way or the other?

24        A.   No, I don't.

25        Q.   Excuse me.  Looking at item number 8, it says:

Page 34147

 1             "Mr. B. Stojic told the session about the military and security

 2     situation in the territory of the HZ-HB.  Following the Muslims' latest

 3     attacks, the response to the mobilisation was rather good."

 4             And was that, again, generally the way things happened at these

 5     HVO meetings, that among other department heads, Mr. Stojic would give a

 6     report on the military and security situation?

 7        A.   From time to time, we were informed of the problems the defence

 8     department had, and also of the situation in the field that we had to be

 9     aware of because of the activities of the individual departments, because

10     the activities in the field were directly related to re-establishing

11     communications, re-establishing the public auditing service.  These were

12     things that other departments had to be aware of when carrying out their

13     tasks.

14        Q.   If we could go next to item number 12, the last item.  It says:

15             "All bodies and services of the HVO HZ-HB shall submit reports on

16     their work, with a short assessment of the current situation in their

17     sphere of activity for the period between 1 January 1993 and 30 June

18     1993; deadline, 12th July 1993."

19             And is that again representative of the type of process that was

20     followed by which various reports would be filed from time to time with

21     the HVO HZ-HB?

22        A.   This was a biennial report.  There was also an annual report when

23     all the departments submitted reports on what had been done and also

24     provided assessments with regards to the activities in their domain, with

25     regard to whether certain tasks had been accomplished or not, and also

Page 34148

 1     with regard the future tasks that had to be dealt with.

 2        Q.   And there's some other points in that document that I would like

 3     to cover if we had more time, but I think that's all the time we can

 4     spend on that particular item.

 5             If I could ask you, please, to go next to P01652, which will be

 6     in the first binder.  P01652.

 7             Again, sir, this is a set of minutes from the HVO meeting on the

 8     11th of March, 1993.  It's indicated that you and others were present,

 9     Mr. Prlic, Mr. Stojic and others.  I'm going to ask you to go to -- it's

10     on the -- the pages have been organised rather strangely on this in some

11     ways on the English translation, anyways.  But if you can find point 13,

12     I think it will assist us.  There are a number of points in the document,

13     point 1, point 2, and if you get toward the end of the document, you'll

14     see point 15.  If you go up to point 13, I'm not really interested in

15     point 13 but what's right above it.

16             Right above point 13, sir, it says:

17             "At the proposal of the Office for Refugees, Expelled and

18     Displaced Persons of the HVO HZ-HB, Nevenko Herceg is appointed office

19     secretary.  The proposal on the appointment of the HVO of Kresevo

20     municipality is adopted.  The proposal is enclosed."

21             Now, again these were both personnel decisions, if you will,

22     being approved by the HVO HZ-HB; correct?

23        A.   These are decisions, and they were reached as a result of the

24     non-functioning of the Presidency of the HZ-HB which pertain to their

25     authorities within the scope of the regulations that prevailed at the

Page 34149

 1     time.

 2        Q.   Now, the second of the two items in that one paragraph is the

 3     proposal on the appointment of the HVO, Kresevo municipality.  Does this

 4     confirm, sir, that it was within the power of the HVO HZ-HB to, in fact,

 5     appoint an entire municipal staff, in this case for Kresevo?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, the situation was as I have already

 7     mentioned.  Because of the non-functioning of the Presidency of the

 8     HZ-HB, this was taken over by the HVO HZ-HB, and the appointment of

 9     Kresevo municipality is hereby confirmed.  I don't remember any other

10     such decisions, because in practical terms presidents of the municipal

11     HVO were members of the Presidency of the HZ-HB, i.e., they were our

12     heads.  Hence, the authority lie with the Presidency of the HZ-HB.

13     However, since they could not be convened during this period, for

14     organisational reasons, to organise the activities and implement

15     regulations of the HZ-HB, this was a necessity, it had to be done.

16        Q.   Would you next go, please, to -- excuse me -- back to the Defence

17     binder, 1D 01184.  And this is, again, a set of minutes of the HVO

18     meeting on the 9th of April, 1993, and again although there are a number

19     of items covered in the document, I'd like to direct your attention to

20     item number 9 on page 4 of the English translation, item 9.

21             In item number 9, sir, there is discussion of a proposal to

22     abrogate the decision on the mobilisation of material and technical

23     equipment in the Mostar municipality.  And if we skip the intervening

24     paragraph, which although everyone will have it, the item 9 goes on to

25     say:

Page 34150

 1             "Based on the above, a decision on the abrogation of the

 2     decision --" the referenced decision in Mostar municipality was

 3     unanimously adopted; correct?

 4        A.   This is about the non-competence of a municipality to carry out

 5     mobilisation according to the HZ-HB, and the HZ-HB department reacted to

 6     that, and the HVO HZ-HB confirmed the standpoint of the defence

 7     department and confirmed that it was contrary to the regulations of the

 8     HZ-HB.

 9        Q.   Going back to -- or going to something, sir, which you've in fact

10     mentioned several times in the last few minutes, and you were asked a

11     number of questions during direct examination about the relationship

12     between the HVO HZ-HB and the municipalities, the municipal HVOs, and if

13     I understood your testimony correctly, sir, you indicated that one of the

14     problems of controlling the HVO municipalities is because the HVO

15     municipal presidents were members of the Presidency.  But, sir, isn't it

16     correct, as you've just said three or four times in the last 15 minutes,

17     the HZ-HB Presidency wasn't functioning during this time; correct?  There

18     was no HZ-HB body to take up, if you will, the cause of these alleged

19     recalcitrant HVOs because the Presidency wasn't meeting, was it?  I think

20     your word for the last few minutes has been because the HZ-HB Presidency

21     was not functioning.  Correct?

22        A.   The Presidency of the HZ-HB convened very seldom, and it did not

23     function by way of calling meetings.  Municipal presidents had contact

24     with the president of the HZ-HB.  The HVO of the HZ-HB, i.e., the

25     municipal HVOs, did not publish Official Gazettes, so one could not

Page 34151

 1     follow what the municipalities were doing at the time, what regulations

 2     they were passing.

 3        Q.   Sir, I think the evidence in this case establishes at this point

 4     and I would put to you that the evidence shows that between the end of

 5     August 1992 and late August 1993, that is, for one year, the HZ-HB

 6     Presidency, in fact, met twice, once on the 17th of October, 1992, and

 7     then, in fact, at the end of August or late August 1993, when the

 8     Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was established.  Now, during the

 9     interim time is it correct, sir, and do you agree with other witnesses,

10     including such people as Mr. Buntic, that during that interim time when

11     the Presidency was not meeting, the HVO HZ-HB was both executive and

12     legislature and their laws, decrees and decisions had the force of law;

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And in terms any control of the HZ-HB Presidency when they did

16     meet, which was rarely, please tell the Judges any time -- any instance

17     in which the HZ-HB Presidency took any action to disapprove, veto or undo

18     any action or decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB.

19        A.   Within the sphere of finance, there was a problem with the decree

20     that regulated the payment of war tax on the part of workers working

21     abroad.  The municipal presidents, in practical terms, stopped the

22     implementation of the decree that was passed by the HVO HZ-HB because

23     they did not want that to be part of the budget of the HZ-HB, as the

24     decree regulated.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  [Previous translation continues]... question.

Page 34152

 1             MR. SCOTT:  No, it was not.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  It was an open-ended question.  Read the question,

 3     sir.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Whoa, hold on.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'm not holding on.  This is unfair.  He asked,

 6     "Please explain to the Judges."  He's explaining, he shouldn't be

 7     interrupted.  I object to this tactic.

 8             MR. SCOTT:  I don't know why Mr. Karnavas is so alarmed.  The

 9     question is on the page and it says:

10             "In terms of any control of the HZ-HB Presidency, when they did

11     meet, which was rarely, please tell the Judges any time -- any instance

12     in which the HZ-HB Presidency took any action to disapprove, veto or undo

13     any action or decision taken by the HVO HZ-HB."

14        Q.   My question had nothing to do with the dislike of some

15     municipalities of what was happening.  My question was:  Name me, sir,

16     and I repeat it again -- give me an instance when the HZ-HB Presidency,

17     when in session, vetoed, disapproved, undid anything, anything that the

18     HVO HZ-HB had done.

19        A.   The Presidency of the HZ-HB ratified the decisions passed by the

20     HVO HZ-HB.  However, I gave you an example, and this was the decree that

21     the HVO HZ-HB passed, and that decree was not implemented in practice

22     because members of the Presidency of the HZ-HB did not want to implement

23     this decree, and they were at the same time heads of the municipalities,

24     and they had legal power not to implement this decree, especially those

25     municipalities that had a lot of workers working abroad, and it was not

Page 34153

 1     their goal for these revenues to be channeled towards the budget of the

 2     HVO HZ-HB.  It was rather their intention and wish for that money to

 3     remain at the municipality level.

 4        Q.   Sir, the answer to my question is:  It never happened, it never

 5     happened, there was never a single occasion when the HZ-HB Presidency

 6     undid or vetoed anything that the HVO HZ-HB had done; correct?  It never

 7     happened?

 8        A.   Not through official meetings.  However, I gave you an example

 9     according to which a decree passed by the HVO HZ-HB that was not adopted

10     or, rather, that it was not implemented in practice on the ground.

11        Q.   Sir, you testified last Tuesday:

12             "All decisions taken by the HVO HZ-HB have been implemented."

13             Now, are you changing your testimony?

14        A.   No.  Decisions that were adopted by the HVO HZ-HB were, indeed,

15     implemented.  Throughout all that time, we struggled for the decisions to

16     be implemented, i.e., to be operational.  I mentioned just one decision

17     which was not implemented at all as a result of the work of the

18     municipalities and their heads.  As a result of all that, a compromise

19     was reached and regulations were changed.  Finally, it was part of the

20     revenues of the municipalities rather than of the HZ-HB.  Whatever

21     regulations we passed, we made sure, as much as possible, for them to be

22     implemented, and within that context I said that all the regulations and

23     decisions that we reached were, indeed, implemented.

24        Q.   Sir, you were asked a number of questions last week about

25     indicating that Mr. Boban, one of the hats that he wore, he was the

Page 34154

 1     president of the HZ-HB Presidency.  Mr. Boban was no shrinking violet,

 2     was he?  I'm not sure that will translate, but he was not an unforceable

 3     person in expressing his views; correct?  He was not -- strike all of

 4     that.  Sorry, my poor question.

 5             Sir, Mr. Boban was an active and forceful personality, wasn't he,

 6     or at least could be?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And as president of the HZ-HB, I take it any of these municipal

 9     HVO presidents could have taken their grievances to Mr. Boban at any

10     time, or called him on the telephone, for that matter, in Herzegovina.

11     Correct?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And, again, can you tell the Judges one occasion when Mate Boban

14     intervened with the HVO HZ-HB to undo, veto, disapprove any action taken

15     by the HVO HZ-HB?

16        A.   I have to go back to the decree that I've just mentioned.  After

17     their objections to Mr. Boban and after their complaints, Mr. Boban

18     called for the regulation to be changed and that the war tax become

19     revenue of the municipalities that would be channeled towards the

20     defence, in agreement with the defence department.  That's how the decree

21     was worded, and it was only then that it actually started being

22     implemented in the territory of the HZ-HB.

23        Q.   All right.  I take that on board, sir, but let me come back to my

24     question.  Was there ever a time Mr. Boban communicated with the HVO

25     HZ-HB, to your knowledge, called -- Mr. Prlic called you, came to a

Page 34155

 1     meeting, sent a representative to the meeting, and say, "At the last HVO

 2     HZ-HB meeting, you took this action.  I don't like it.  The municipal

 3     HVOs don't like it.  I'm hereby saying you can't do it"?  Did anything

 4     like that ever happen?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   When was that?

 7        A.   The example of the decree that I've just mentioned is an example

 8     of that.

 9        Q.   Is that the only example you can think of?

10        A.   This is an example pertaining to my sphere of work.  That's why I

11     remember it.  But I know that he communicated individually with

12     department heads and that he suggested certain solutions that they should

13     adopt.

14        Q.   Well, I think eventually the Judges will probably have just about

15     every HVO minute in the record for them to review, and the lawyers -- and

16     all the lawyers can argue about that at some point, I suppose.

17             If you remember, this afternoon I took you to Exhibit P00303, and

18     in the interests of time I'm going to suggest we probably don't have to

19     look at it.  But if you remember, that was the clause that we stopped and

20     looked at and said the Presidency of the HZ-HB shall appoint and dismiss

21     the other members of the HVO HZ-HB.  The Presidency of the HZ-HB had that

22     power, and my question to you again, sir:  Can you tell the Judges one

23     instance where the HZ-HB Presidency exercised any power to remove a

24     member of the HVO HZ-HB?

25        A.   I can't remember.

Page 34156

 1        Q.   You can't -- again, sir, you can't remember one way or the other

 2     or you don't recall any occasion when that happened?

 3        A.   I can't recall any such example.

 4        Q.   Sir, in terms of your dealings with the HVO municipal

 5     governments, just to summarise this point, I put it to you, sir, if you

 6     had such a severe problem or such a problem as you've indicated to the

 7     Judges last week with any particular HVO municipal government, assuming

 8     for the moment that's correct, did you take any action -- did the HVO

 9     HZ-HB take any action available, send your laws, send your armies, send

10     the police, and remove any of those governments or members of those

11     governments who were disobedient to your administration?

12        A.   Last week, I spoke about letters that I sent to the president of

13     the HZ-HB, to the municipal heads.  I also had individual conversations

14     with the municipal presidents, and I tried to implement the HZ-HB

15     regulations.  We have to bear in mind that the municipalities had built

16     their own powers or authorities in their respective territories even

17     before the establishment of the HVO HZ-HB, and they had real power on the

18     ground.  At the same time, the HVO HZ-HB did not have any instruments

19     available to it to force them to do anything.

20        Q.   Sir, the HVO HZ-HB pursued policies and sent armies and police

21     into the field to carry out that policy, including expulsions, including

22     fights, taking over villages.  You certainly did have power, sir.  And

23     are you telling the Judges that you did not have the ability to send the

24     police, to send law enforcement, to send the military, if necessary, to

25     gain control of some municipal official who you say would not get in

Page 34157

 1     line?

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the form of

 3     question.  Now, unless he can establish the facts in this question, there

 4     are facts beyond -- you know, that are not in evidence.  Where is it that

 5     the HVO HZ-HB sent armies into the field?  Where does he get this?  I

 6     mean, look at the question.  It's loaded with facts.  How does one answer

 7     "yes" or "no."  I mean, let's be fair.  I'm trying to be measured here,

 8     but let's be fair to the witness.

 9             MR. SCOTT:

10        Q.   Sir, the Judges, over the past two and a half years -- excuse me.

11     I'm sorry, Mr. President.

12             Sir, the Judges have heard evidence over the past two and a half

13     years, and they'll of course ultimately decide.  I'm not saying it's been

14     established once and for all, but they've certainly heard an abundance of

15     evidence indicating Muslim administrations in municipalities being

16     removed and war presidencies being removed or displaced in a number of

17     locations, Varos comes to mind at the moment, and I do put it to you,

18     sir, that was being done by people who ultimately the HVO HZ-HB

19     controlled.  Bruno Stojic and the Department of Defence reported to the

20     HVO HZ-HB.  Now, if you could send the military and police to displace

21     Muslim administrations and take out Muslim war presidencies, why couldn't

22     you get one recalcitrant HVO municipal official in line?

23        A.   I don't know -- I'm not sure that I understood your question

24     correctly.  However, our task was to organise the civilian life in the

25     territory of the HZ-HB and to build a system for the survival during that

Page 34158

 1     period.  Those were the priorities of both my department and the HZ-HB.

 2     In other words, we were mostly concerned with the implementation of our

 3     own rules, the rules and regulations that we, ourselves, had passed.

 4        Q.   Sir, if you could go next to Exhibit in the Defence binder,

 5     please, 1D 02357.  This is an article of an interview with Mr. Prlic on

 6     the 25th of January, 1992.  There's a translation error on the date.  I'm

 7     sure the original can be seen to be "1992."

 8             Sir, on page 2 of the English version, but in the -- it would

 9     be -- there's a question that's put to Mr. Prlic that said:

10             "Is a BH currency the solution?"

11             And obviously I'm changing topics now to a part of your testimony

12     dealing with currency, the BH dinar, the Croatian dinar, the Deutsche

13     mark.  On this particular occasion, under that question:  "Is a BH

14     currency a solution," at the end of his answer Mr. Prlic says:

15             "The problem is, therefore, how in this situation to introduce a

16     new currency which the largest part of the republic would not recognise."

17             "Question:  What parts are you referring to?

18             "Answer:  "In the SAO, the Serbian autonomous areas or Krajinas,

19     they want the Serbian dinar, in Western Herzegovina the Croatian one."

20             Isn't it true, sir, that long before there was any discussion of

21     introduction of the BH dinar, which didn't take place until

22     September/October of 1992, some months later, it was already clear the

23     Serbs wanted the Yugoslav dinar and many of the Croats, at least in

24     Western Herzegovina, they wanted the Croatian currency; correct?  That's

25     what Mr. Prlic says, and I guess I'll put it to you.  Do you agree or

Page 34159

 1     disagree with Mr. Prlic?

 2        A.   The fundamental issue of money is also the issue of trust or

 3     confidence in the currency and in the institution that stands behind that

 4     currency, which is the Central bank.  The confidence in the Central bank

 5     stems from the confidence in the state.  Under such circumstances, it

 6     was, at that time if 1992, there were no preconditions to build

 7     confidence in a currency that would be introduced which would also prove

 8     to be true after its introduction.

 9        Q.   I apologise, I apologise for interrupting.  My question is much

10     simpler, and that is:  Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Prlic that it

11     was already clear that the largest part of the republic would not

12     recognise a new currency; the Serbs wanted the Serbian dinar, and in

13     Western Herzegovina the Croats wanted the Croatian dinar?  Now, that was

14     what Mr. Prlic said.  Do you agree or disagree?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   You disagree?

17        A.   Yes, I disagree.

18        Q.   And in this article, there is a reference -- in fact, the article

19     is titled:  "Looting On Both Sides."  Is it true that around this time in

20     the latter part of 1991, Croatia was trucking large amounts of Yugoslav

21     dinars to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Well, at that period of time a lot of Jugo dinars appeared in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Some came from Yugoslavia, some from Croatia.

24        Q.   Above the part that I read to you a moment ago, above the

25     question:  "Is a BH currency the solution," Mr. Prlic says:

Page 34160

 1             "If it is true that large amounts of money have been transferred

 2     from Croatia, that then means that we have been robbed by the West as

 3     well."

 4             So I come back to my question, sir.  Is it correct that Croatia

 5     at that time was trucking large amounts of Yugoslav dinars into Bosnia?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And was that some deliberate attempt to sabotage the BH economy,

 8     the Bosnian economy, or why send all this currency, which Croatia

 9     apparently doesn't want, into Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   This money had no value in the Republic of Croatia.  It was

11     earmarked for municipalities in Herzegovina which could still exchange

12     the money for German marks or buy goods with the money.  By exchanging

13     those funds, the municipalities obtained revenue, and you can see that

14     this revenue was subsequently used for defence.

15        Q.   Before we move on from this document, sir, if I can go up to the

16     first question that is put to Mr. Prlic in this article, and it says:

17             "Mr. Prlic, why are you avoiding questions about politics when

18     today everything boils down to politics?"

19             "Answer:  Precisely because everything boils down to politics, or

20     better to put it, to politicking, in other words --i.e., in other words,

21     to the ethnic field."

22             Do you agree, sir, that by 25 January 1992, the predominant

23     factor in what was happening in the former Yugoslavia was politics and

24     ethnic politics at that?  And once again my question really is:  Do you

25     agree with Mr. Prlic's assessment?

Page 34161

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And, sir, didn't that really ultimately have more to do with

 3     Herceg-Bosna's selection of the Croatian dinar than any sort of monetary

 4     or financial reasons?  Herceg-Bosna chose the Croatian dinar because

 5     ethnic -- primarily for ethnic reasons and its affiliation or desired

 6     affiliation with the Republic of Croatia; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   That's not correct, no.  The municipalities introduced the

 8     Croatian dinar on an individual basis.  It depended on the arrival of

 9     goods and on the possibility of obtaining new goods.  I've already

10     mentioned in my testimony that the municipality of Jablanica adopted such

11     a decision, as well as other municipalities, and the HVO HZ-HB issued a

12     decree regulating that salaries should be paid in Croatian dinars.  They

13     didn't introduce the Croatian dinar because the Croatian dinar was

14     already being used, as was the case for the German mark.

15        Q.   Let's go to another article by Mr. Prlic about 15 months later,

16     which is 1D 02222 in the Defence binder, the binder you're just been in,

17     so it shouldn't be too difficult.  1D 02222, and this is an article by

18     Mr. Prlic in Slobodna Dalmatija on the 29th of April, 1993, in which he

19     writes about the introduction of the BH dinar.  In one of the parts of

20     his -- in fact, the first part of the bold language, under the bold

21     language it says that one of the problems was a huge amount, as much as a

22     third -- strike that -- that a huge amount of the BH dinars, as they were

23     introduced, wound up, if you will, in the wrong hands.  Did that happen

24     in Herceg-Bosna as well or was somehow Herceg-Bosna immune from that

25     situation?

Page 34162

 1        A.   In the course of my testimony, I explained how we directed

 2     Bosnian and Herzegovinian dinars into municipalities in Central Bosnia,

 3     because you could obtain goods and equipment and pay with this currency,

 4     because in that area the BH dinar was accepted, and you know the main

 5     bills of all companies and of legal entities were in BH dinars.  So with

 6     reference to BH dinars, there never was embezzlement of any kind.

 7        Q.   In the -- under the bold heading, not counting that one, but in

 8     the paragraphs that follow, and I'm trying to just give you a point of

 9     reference, in the fourth paragraph under there -- under that, excuse me,

10     and for the English readers, bottom of page 1 in the translation,

11     Mr. Prlic says:

12             "There was no obstruction to the introduction of this currency in

13     the territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna," et cetera, "but

14     there was obstruction to the realistic assessment of the entire

15     undertaking."

16             Now, in contrast to that, sir, let me just put it to you, what

17     Mr. Prlic says, there was no obstruction, hadn't Herceg-Bosna by that

18     time made it very clear that it was seeking to establish a Croatian

19     space?  I think, in fact, the term that was maybe used by others was a

20     single economic space.  But by this time, Herceg-Bosna and its leadership

21     had made it very clear, had it not, it was attempting to carve out a

22     Croatian space in Bosnia and Herzegovina, at least for a time; correct?

23     And wasn't it fully part of that to adopt and use the Croatian currency

24     as opposed to some other currency?

25        A.   Well, I have to say that that's wrong, because Herceg-Bosna, the

Page 34163

 1     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, also included areas inhabited by

 2     Croats, areas in which the BH dinar was also a currency.  Sarajevo and

 3     other areas.  This was an attempt to establish a system that would

 4     protect the Croats in those areas and create the economic preconditions

 5     to assist certain parts, so that's why the Croatian dinar wasn't what was

 6     used to make such assessments.  The Croatian dinar arrived in a natural

 7     way with goods and with people who received aid in Croatian dinars when

 8     they were refugees.  Medhamed [phoen], the Muslim charity, gave people

 9     money that they received from foreign donators in German marks, but in

10     Croatia people had to change -- exchange that money, because only

11     Croatian dinars were used there.  So with those Croatian dinars, they

12     would come and buy goods, and that's why the Croatian dinar disappeared

13     from the market later on, because there was no -- there were no more

14     goods.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... part of this article, sorry,

16     but we have to move on.

17             On the next-to-last paragraph of Mr. Prlic's article, he seems to

18     indicate that there were three other avenues that could have been

19     pursued -- could have been prevented.  He says:

20             "The discrediting of the state could have been prevented in

21     several ways; by payments in convertible currency," first, so it stopped

22     there.

23             Can you tell the Judges what is -- tell me and tell everyone,

24     what's a convertible currency?

25        A.   Well, the German mark is what one has in mind, or the American US

Page 34164

 1     dollar.  These are currencies that were listed by banks as currencies

 2     that could be exchanged.

 3        Q.   Mr. Prlic goes on to say the second thing that could have been

 4     done is the issue of coupons in certain areas.  But as I understood your

 5     testimony last week, sir, you were critical of coupons, and yet here

 6     Mr. Prlic seems to be recommending that as one course of action, at least

 7     in some areas.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Prlic?

10        A.   Well, one's talking about issuing coupons in certain areas where

11     it was possible to control how this money was used and where it was

12     possible to control its value.  I said that the BH dinar, the Bosnian and

13     Herzegovinian dinar, which was supposed to be issued throughout the

14     state, was converted into coupons that had various values in Tuzla,

15     Zenica and Sarajevo, so whoever administers this money makes it possible

16     to carry out looting.  One can shift money from one area to another.  I

17     understand the suggestion coupons could be used in a certain area if

18     there was supervision, protection.  In such areas, such coupons could

19     have a stable value.  One could trust the way in which such coupons were

20     used and people wouldn't fear their money disappearing.

21        Q.   And the third option which Mr. Prlic lists here is officially

22     introducing the Croatian dinar, and we'll continue on that when -- of

23     course as we go.

24        A.   Here a possibility is mentioned.  One could pay in cash, and that

25     was the case in a large swathe of the free territory.

Page 34165

 1        Q.   Before we leave this document, in the last paragraph it makes

 2     reference to an agreement on payment transactions between these states,

 3     referring to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Republic of

 4     Croatia.  Can you tell the Judges, please, what sort of agreement on

 5     payment transactions existed at that time between Bosnia and Croatia?

 6        A.   At the time, there were agreements between Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     and Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slovenia, agreements on

 8     payment transactions and using non-resident accounts.

 9        Q.   Let's go next to 1D 01350.  1D 01350.  And just to confirm, do

10     you agree that this is the confirmation of the receipt by Herceg-Bosna

11     authorities of approximately three billion BH dinars in connection with

12     the initial distribution or introduction of that currency?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And I just had one additional question about that document.  It

15     says, item 14 the costs of delivery, unloading, placing in the vaults,

16     loading, the transfer of workers and record-keeping expenses amounts to

17     46 million BH dinars.

18             So who got that money, who got 46 million dinars?

19        A.   People who came from Central Bosnia received this money.

20        Q.   No, no, sir.  My question is specifically the 46 million in

21     costs.  The item 14 talks about costs, which is taken out of the gross

22     amount, and I'm just asking, if you can assist us:  Who received the 46

23     million BH dinars?

24        A.   Workers of the municipal HVOs from Central Bosnia received this

25     money.  It was to cover their expenses, the expenses of coming there,

Page 34166

 1     fuel, accommodation, et cetera.  So it was these people who physically

 2     transported the money and took it to Central Bosnia who received this

 3     money.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... tied this back into further

 5     in your testimony last week, when you indicated that approximately a

 6     third of the currency had been -- well, I'm not sure exactly which word

 7     you used at the time, but basically a third of the currency had been

 8     seized or taken by Herceg-Bosna to make sure kind of they'd get their

 9     share.  Now, again, are we talking about essentially the same transaction

10     here, same event, as reflected in this document?

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, the word "seize" has been used.

12     Perhaps we could have a page reference to where in the transcript

13     Mr. Tomic said that the money was seized, meaning stolen.

14             MR. SCOTT:  Well, not stolen, but I think -- well, let me ask the

15     witness this.  Maybe I misunderstood.

16        Q.   Sir, you testified last week that there was several trucks of

17     currency were sent to Herceg-Bosna.  Apparently you're now saying these

18     were people from Central Bosnia who then bore the cost of doing so and

19     that about a third of this money then was kept -- strike the word

20     "seized," was then kept with these three trucks in Herceg-Bosna.  Now, is

21     that what happened or did I misunderstand your testimony?

22        A.   I think you misunderstood my testimony.  A representative of the

23     government of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is responsible for

24     transporting money from the printers to Celije in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

25     and this person decided that this lorry should remain in the territory of

Page 34167

 1     the HZ-HB, whereas the other two lorries continued on their way to

 2     Central Bosnia.  We obtained this money in accordance with what he was

 3     competent for, and we used it in the most efficient way possible at the

 4     time, in terms of maintaining the value of the money received.  So

 5     nothing was actually seized.

 6        Q.   I strike the word "seized."  I think -- well, we can go back on

 7     the record if we need to last week.  You received one of the trucks, one

 8     of the lorries, and the money as indicated on 1D 01350 was received.

 9     Now, I notice this introduction, according to this report, was on the

10     15th of October, 1992.  Correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If you can work with me before finish the evening.  If you can

13     look next, please, in the first binder to Exhibit P00447.  The first

14     Prosecution binder, P00447.  If you can just confirm for me, sir, is this

15     a decree issued on the 22nd of September, 1992, by the HVO HZ-HB titled:

16     "On the Regulation of Payment Transaction in Croatian Dinars on the

17     Territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna"?

18        A.   Yes, that is the decree that regulates payment transactions in

19     Croatian dinars.

20        Q.   As the head of the finance department of the HVO at that time, I

21     take it you would have been involved, probably, in drafting or otherwise

22     preparing this decree.  Would that be fair to say?

23        A.   Correct.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'm going to suggest that might be a

25     time to stop, before we go to the next document.

Page 34168

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  My colleague Judge Prandler is

 2     telling me that on line 25, page 87, there is mention of territories.  Is

 3     that the adequate term?

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Sorry, Mr. President, are you directing that question

 5     to me or to the witness?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  [French spoken].

 7             MR. SCOTT:

 8        Q.   If you can assist us, Mr. Tomic, please.

 9        A.   Can you just remind me which part you're referring to?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, please, in this

11     decree there is mention of territories of the Croat Community of

12     Herceg-Bosna.  What did this mean, exactly?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very often at the beginning of the

14     HVO HZ-HB, the term "area" or "territory" would be used.  The term

15     "territory" was used when copying the provisions that regulated

16     situations in the territory of Yugoslavia, so it has to do with the area

17     of the HZ-HB, the area covered in the decision on establishing the HZ-HB.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

19             It is 7.00 p.m.  I believe it is time to adjourn.  We will be

20     sitting tomorrow at 2.15 p.m.  As I told you, I will be at the door at

21     2.14, so I'll see you tomorrow for tomorrow's hearing.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

24                           November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.