Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34267

 1                           Monday, 10 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Registrar, could you call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Jadranko

10     Prlic et al.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Today, on Monday, the 10th of November, 2008, I would first of

14     all like to greet the accused, the Defence teams, Mr. Scott and his

15     associates, as well as everyone else assisting us.

16             There is an oral decision I would like to read out.  It is a bit

17     long, and I will read it out slowly.

18             Oral decision on the request to reconsider the oral decision

19     rendered by the Chamber on the 16th of October, 2008, regarding a new

20     subject addressed in the course of the Petkovic Defence

21     cross-examination.

22             The witness, Mirko Zelenika, testified from the 14th to the 16th

23     of October, 2008.  On the 15th of October, 2008, the Petkovic Defence,

24     through Ms. Alaburic, cross-examined the witness Zelenika.  On the 16th

25     of October, 2008, in its oral decision, the Trial Chamber decided that

Page 34268

 1     the time used for the cross-examination conducted by Ms. Alaburic to deal

 2     with a new subject would be deducted from the overall amount of time

 3     allocated to the Petkovic Defence.

 4             On the very same day, Ms. Alaburic asked the Chamber to be more

 5     precise with regard to the oral decision and contested it.

 6             On the 20th of October, 2008, at the hearing, the Prosecution

 7     responded to the Petkovic Defence request, and on that same day the

 8     Petkovic Defence responded to the Prosecution.

 9             On the 30th of October, 2008, the Petkovic Defence filed with the

10     Registrar an addition to the request.  According to the Petkovic Defence,

11     the subjects addressed in the course of its cross-examination of the

12     witness Zelenika were not new subjects and corresponded to what the

13     witness had said in the course of examination-in-chief that was conducted

14     by Mr. Karnavas on the 14th of October, 2008, with regard to document

15     ID 02758.  Having examined anew the transcripts of the 14th and 15th of

16     October, 2008, the Chamber notes that Ms. Alaburic covered what the

17     witness had said with regard to document ID 02758 in order to question

18     the witness about the combat of the ABiH in the Konjic region, about the

19     fighting conducted by the ABiH in that region, although the Trial Chamber

20     believes that in the course of the examination-in-chief, the witness's

21     testimony was mainly limited to reading the document, which was described

22     as a combat order.  I quote:

23             "The Chamber agrees that it cannot confirm with certainty that

24     Ms. Alaburic actually addressed a new subject..." when referring to the

25     ABiH combat.

Page 34269

 1             Given such doubt, the Trial Chamber believes that one should

 2     grant the Petkovic Defence's request, and the Trial Chamber, therefore,

 3     should not deduct time from the overall amount of time granted.

 4     Therefore, the Chamber instructs the Registrar to reallocate the time

 5     deducted for the examination of the Zelenika witness.

 6             The Chamber notes that a subject referred to in a document that

 7     was shown to the witness in the course of examination-in-chief does not

 8     authorise a subject to address this subject in the course of the

 9     cross-examination properly.

10             In addition, the Chamber informs the parties that when dealing

11     with a new subject in the course of the cross-examination, they should

12     inform the Chamber of the fact.

13             So in two words, the time that was deducted will be reallocated

14     to the overall amount of time granted to the Petkovic Defence; and in the

15     future when you deal with a new subject, inform us of the fact

16     immediately so that we can avoid any problems in the future.

17             That's what our decision was about.

18             Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

19             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] I would like to greet you, Your

20     Honours, and everyone else in the courtroom; and the Petkovic Defence

21     thanks you for this decision.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Ms. Alaburic.

23             We now have a witness who will be testifying.  Mr. Karnavas, no

24     problems?

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  No problems, Your Honour.

Page 34270

 1             If we could go into private session for, like, 30 seconds.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Registrar, private

 3     session, please.

 4                           [Private session]

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Page 34271











11 Page 34271 redacted. Private session.















Page 34272

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, we're now in open

18     session.  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  So in line 13,

20     page 5, "Mr. Khan "should be deleted and replaced with Mr. Karnavas'

21     name.  But since Mr. Khan is internationally renowned, it's not

22     surprising.

23             Mr. Scott.

24             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honour, I'm not nearly as internationally

25     renowned as Mr. Khan, but, in any event, while we're making certain

Page 34273

 1     introductions and dealing with matters, while the witness is being

 2     brought in, I would like to say that one of our trial attorneys was

 3     introduced to the Chamber some months ago.  Ms. Hedvig Moe will be taking

 4     the cross-examination of this witness.

 5             And also, Your Honours, in the course of the testimony of this

 6     witness, we expect one of our interns to sit in at least during part of

 7     the testimony.  She is not here at the moment.  She is Laurence

 8     Carrier-Desjardins, and we've been pleased to have her as an intern, and

 9     as the Chamber knows, we'd like to have the interns in at least once or

10     twice during their internship, and I just wanted to make the Chamber

11     aware of that.  And of course, you already know Mr. Bos.

12             Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  The Trial Chamber

14     greets Ms. Hedvig Moe, who is also representing the Prosecution, and it's

15     with pleasure that we'll listen to her cross-examination in the

16     forthcoming days.  And naturally, the intern can attend the hearing.  She

17     can enter the courtroom as soon as she arrives.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Good day, sir.  I hope all the

20     technical equipment is functioning properly.

21             Could you please give me your first and last name and date of

22     birth.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day.  My name is

24     Zdravko Batinic.  I was born on the 17th of August, 1955.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  What is your current

Page 34274

 1     profession?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mechanical engineer, and

 3     currently I'm involved in security [as interpreted].

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Sir, have you already

 5     testified before a court with regard to the events that took place in the

 6     former Yugoslavia, or is this the first time?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Could you please read out the

 9     solemn declaration that the usher will show you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO BATINIC

13                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Thank you, sir.  You may sit

15     down now.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I'd like to provide you with

18     some information, sir, but I believe that Mr. Karnavas has already

19     provided you with some information in the course of the proofing.

20             First, you will have to answer the questions that Mr. Karnavas

21     will put to you, and Mr. Karnavas will also show you some documents, for

22     sure.  After that stage, the Prosecution will conduct its

23     cross-examination.  But in the meantime, the Defence teams representing

24     other accused may also intervene in the course of the cross-examination

25     in order to put questions to you once Mr. Karnavas has done so.  The

Page 34275

 1     Judges who are sitting before you, the four Judges sitting before you,

 2     may also put questions to you.  This will naturally depend on the

 3     documents that you will be shown, and the questions might be put in order

 4     to clarify certain issues that are not quite clear.

 5             Try and be as precise as possible when answering the questions

 6     put to you.  If you fail to understand a question, even if a Judge puts a

 7     question to you, don't hesitate to ask the person putting the question to

 8     you to rephrase that question.

 9             Every one and a half hours, we'll have a 20-minute break.  As we

10     started at 2.15, the next break will be at 15.45.

11             You have taken an oath, which now means that you're testifying on

12     behalf of justice, and that means you won't have any more contact with

13     Mr. Karnavas right up until the end of your testimony.

14             This is what I wanted to tell you, and naturally the Chamber is

15     at your disposal if necessary if you don't feel well, if you have any

16     questions to put to us.

17             That's what I wanted to tell you, and now I will give the floor

18     to Mr. Karnavas so that he can commence with his examination-in-chief.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, again, Your Honours.

20                           Examination by Mr. Karnavas:

21        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Batinic.  First, I should correct

22     something on the record.  Your current occupation is not in security but,

23     rather, insurance; is that correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   I think that there was a inability to hear what you had

Page 34276

 1     indicated.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Now, before I begin, Your Honours, I should note

 3     that there are several documents that we wish to show to the gentleman

 4     throughout the course of his testimony that were not initially in our

 5     65 ter list, but we have disclosed them to everyone, and these are 1D

 6     02961, which is the statute of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

 7     This was disclosed last -- about a month ago.  Then 1D 03104.  These are

 8     conclusions from the Gornji Vakuf Municipal Crisis Staff, dated 7 April

 9     1992; 1D 03105, conclusions of the Gornji Vakuf Crisis Staff, this is 15

10     May 1992; 1D 03106, order of the Gornji Vakuf Municipal Crisis Staff

11     dated 15 May 1992; and then we have some notes from Mr. Batinic's diary.

12     One of them is 1D 03107, an entry of 3 August 1992; another one of 1D

13     03108, an entry of 14 September 1992; and I'm told that there is -- and

14     that's it, Your Honours.  So before I can use these documents, obviously

15     I must seek guidance from the Bench.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Madam Prosecutor.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  And I should also let you know that it was over

18     the weekend that I received these documents.

19             MS. MOE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone

20     in and around the courtroom.

21             The Prosecution objects to the tendering of the diary notes of

22     Mr. Zdravko Batinic.  What we've been provided with so far are the

23     excerpts that Mr. Karnavas referred to just now.  There is also -- I

24     guess one of those is referenced in the proofing note that we got this

25     afternoon.  Two of them are referenced in information that we got on the

Page 34277

 1     weekend.  Also, we have reason to believe that two other exhibits that

 2     have been put on the Prlic 65 ter list previously are from the same diary

 3     of Mr. Zdravko Batinic.

 4             The Prosecution position is that when certain excerpts of a

 5     journal are tendered into evidence or are to be tendered into evidence,

 6     then the whole materials, the whole journal, should be disclosed to the

 7     Prosecution.

 8             I believe a parallel can be drawn to previous Defence witnesses.

 9     What comes to mind is Mr. Christopher Beese and Mr. Herbert Okun,

10     Prosecution witnesses, where the Defence position was that the diaries as

11     a whole, respectively, must be disclosed to the Prosecution, and they

12     were at the time.

13             So the Prosecution position is that the whole diary of

14     Mr. Zdravko Batinic should be disclosed.  There cannot be only certain

15     excerpts that are picked by counsel that are tendered into evidence.

16             Thank you.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Just very briefly, if I may respond.

18             With respect to Mr. Beese, I don't recall that we had --

19     initially we were going to get everything but, rather, Mr. Beese

20     consented at the end; and the Trial Chamber's position always has been

21     that when it comes to certain diaries, because of the personal nature of

22     them, that some deference is due to the witness in deciding to what

23     extent they will provide portions of the diary.  We don't have the entire

24     diary, so it wasn't as if, as is being characterized by the Prosecution,

25     that I picked through the diary.  These were sort of during the proofing

Page 34278

 1     sessions, the gentleman referred to his diary concerning a particular

 2     issue, and based on that, based on his looking into the diary, we made a

 3     decision at that point.  But we did not get the entire diary ourselves.

 4     Otherwise, we would have provided it to the Prosecution, as we did with

 5     our previous witness, which I believe was Simunovic.  We did provide the

 6     entire diary, although we didn't use any of it except on redirect.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The Chamber will deliberate.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Having deliberated, the

10     Chamber grants the request to have listed on the 65 ter list documents

11     referred to by Mr. Karnavas a minute ago.

12             As far as the schedule is concerned, the diary, rather, the

13     witness's personal diary, the Chamber will give a number for

14     identification of 1D 03108, and we request that the Defence and the

15     witness provide us with the remainder of the diary, with the exception of

16     personal information, personal data.

17             So, Witness, how many pages does your diary consist of?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how many

19     pages exactly.  I have two small diaries, and I'm not quite sure how many

20     pages there are.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Could you have a look at your

22     diary this evening, remove personal information or data from the diary -

23     for example, thoughts about your family, things of that kind - and

24     tomorrow you could provide us with the remainder of these diaries.  We'll

25     photocopy them, and then Mr. Karnavas could transform this document into

Page 34279

 1     a final document.  So go through your diary this evening, see what

 2     shouldn't be photocopied because it's personal, but everything that

 3     concerns political problems, the Gornji Vakuf municipality, everything

 4     that seems useful to you could be photocopied tomorrow.  And the document

 5     was 1D 03108, as I said.

 6             Mr. Karnavas.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Two points in the matter.

 8             Your Honour, first, I don't think it would be meritorious to

 9     remove anything from the diary because you would have to cut it.  The

10     original should stay as it is.  As far as not designating which portions

11     should not be copied, I think that might be a more prudent way of going

12     about it, as opposed to razor-blading pages out.  That's number 1.

13             Number 2, I haven't -- you know, I'm prepared at this point to

14     forego those exhibits if the gentleman does not want to disclose the

15     diary.  I don't want to seem that we're putting him in a position where

16     he has to turn over something which he doesn't wish to turn over, so --

17     sorry, if that's -- so I would first want the witness to have that

18     choice.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Batinic, you have heard

20     the comments by Mr. Karnavas.  It's up to you.  Either you believe this

21     to be a personal diary, and then you can tell us, "I prefer to keep it

22     such as it is," and this would then, ipso facto, mean that the two pages

23     or three pages - there are three pages - will not be tendered; or you do

24     not consider it in any way inconvenient and you can put on a piece of

25     paper which pages should not be photocopied because they refer to

Page 34280

 1     personal issues.

 2             By way of example - I don't know; it's just a hypothesis on my

 3     side - let us assume that you have a conversation with your grandmother,

 4     and you say that your grandmother is losing her mind or something like

 5     that.  This is something that we do not have to know.  So then you will

 6     ask these matters to be extracted from the diary.

 7             So my first question is:  Do you wish to have it disclosed or

 8     not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are my personal

10     notes.  I would rather them not be disclosed as a whole.  Parts of the

11     diary that I considered could be useful for the Defence are with

12     Mr. Karnavas.  As for the rest, I do not wish them to be disclosed to

13     anyone.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Karnavas, he prefers not

15     to have the diary disclosed.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  I understand, Your Honour.  Well, that's a

17     personal choice that the witness is entitled to make, and we appreciate

18     the Trial Chamber allowing the witness to have that -- make that decision

19     on his own.

20             All right.  I should also note one last thing, Your Honour, that

21     we did -- the gentleman did provide us with a map, and that has been

22     disclosed to everyone.  We photocopied it.  It's not as large, I think,

23     as the original one, but I think it does the trick.  We have --

24     initially, the gentleman did a hand drawing, and we understand he was

25     able to provide us with a map.  So with that -- and we will need an IC

Page 34281

 1     number for this, for this map, when we get to it, Your Honours.

 2     Perhaps --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Registrar, can we have an

 4     IC number for the map.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Karnavas, we will see

 7     later on for the number.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.

 9        Q.   All right.  Mr. Batinic, I understand you are a mechanical

10     engineer by training.  Could you please tell us, when did you begin --

11     when did you finish your studies - on or about, when - and when did you

12     begin working in your profession?

13        A.   I completed my studies in 19 -- no, I'm sorry, in 1987, and I

14     started working in my profession in mid-May in the springs factory in

15     Gornji Vakuf.

16        Q.   And as I understand it, you are originally from Gornji Vakuf.

17        A.   Yes.  I was born in a locality called Krupa in the municipality

18     of Gornji Vakuf.

19        Q.   And how long did you stay in that position, working for the

20     springs factory?

21        A.   From mid-May 199 -- 1988 - I'm sorry - until the end of 1991.

22        Q.   All right.  And why did you stop working at the springs factory?

23        A.   By decision of the Municipal Assembly of Gornji Vakuf in December

24     1991, I was appointed president of the Executive Council of the Municipal

25     Assembly of Gornji Vakuf.

Page 34282

 1        Q.   And how was it that you were able to be selected to be in that

 2     position?

 3        A.   Upon the proposal of the Croatian Democratic Union of

 4     Gornji Vakuf.

 5        Q.   Can we then assume that you were a member of the HDZ of

 6     Gornji Vakuf?

 7        A.   Yes, I was a member of the HDZ of Gornji Vakuf.  I still am a

 8     member of the HDZ.

 9        Q.   And when did you become -- when did you initially become a member

10     of HDZ?

11        A.   On the 6th of June, 1990.

12        Q.   And could you please tell us, at least up until the time that you

13     were appointed to the -- to be the president of the Executive Council of

14     the Municipal Assembly of Gornji Vakuf, what positions did you hold

15     within the HDZ, if any?

16        A.   I was a member of the Municipal Board of the HDZ for

17     Gornji Vakuf, and I was president of the Executive Board of the branch

18     for a local community in Gornji Vakuf.

19        Q.   And what about at the state level, the national level?

20        A.   I was just a member of the HDZ.

21        Q.   Now -- and we'll get to some documents about the HDZ.  But moving

22     along, if you could please describe to us, very briefly, the functions of

23     the president of the Executive Council of the Municipal Assembly of

24     Gornji Vakuf.

25        A.   The president of the Executive Council of the Assembly of

Page 34283

 1     Gornji Vakuf was in charge of coordinating the work of the

 2     Executive Council as the government of the Gornji Vakuf municipality.  He

 3     convenes meetings, assigns decisions and conclusions and opinions of the

 4     Executive Council of Gornji Vakuf municipality.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, I'm a bit puzzled by the title

 6     "Executive Council of the Assembly of the Gornji Vakuf," rather than

 7     "Executive Council of the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf."  Is that a slip

 8     of the tongue, or are these two different things, Mr. Batinic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, they are not two

10     different things.  The Executive Council of the municipality is appointed

11     by the Assembly of the municipality.  That's why I'm saying that the

12     Executive Council is a body of the Assembly of the Municipality of

13     Gornji Vakuf.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

15             MR. KARNAVAS:

16        Q.   So if I understand your answer correctly, the Executive Council

17     is subordinate to the Municipal Assembly.

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And who makes the appointments to the members of the

20     Executive Council?

21        A.   The appointments of members of the Executive Council, including

22     the president of the Executive Council, are made by the assembly of the

23     municipality in question, in this case, the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

24        Q.   Now, if you could please tell us how many members were there in

25     the Executive Council.

Page 34284

 1        A.   Eight members.

 2        Q.   And could you please tell us, how were the selections made or the

 3     appointments?  Who was appointed to those positions?  We don't need to

 4     know names, but as I understand it, it was on the basis of the political

 5     parties.

 6        A.   By political agreement of the parties with the highest votes

 7     after the first multiparty elections in the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

 8     HDZ was appointed the position of president of the Executive Council,

 9     plus three members; and SDA had four members; plus, the SDA was given the

10     position of the president of the assembly of the municipality and the HDZ

11     the, position of the secretary.  So all in all, the division was

12     four-four for the two parties, four Croats and four Bosniaks.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that this was on the basis of the

14     results of the election.  Were any positions allocated to SDP, for

15     instance?

16        A.   No, they weren't.

17        Q.   And is that -- was there a particular reason?

18        A.   Yes.  The results of the elections, after the 18th of November,

19     1990, showed that the Assembly of Gornji Vakuf had 50 deputies.  25 seats

20     were won by the SDA, 22 seats by the HDZ, and 3 seats by the SDP of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, before we go on to your functions and the

23     relationship that the Executive Council had with the Municipal Assembly,

24     if you could tell us whether -- what the system was prior to the first

25     elections.  And by that, I mean was there sort of an executive council;

Page 34285

 1     was there an assembly before that; and if so, how did it function?

 2        A.   Yes.  Before the multiparty elections, there was a Municipal

 3     Assembly of Gornji Vakuf, which had its president and its aldermen, and

 4     there was an executive council with its members.

 5        Q.   And how were the members selected then?  Was it based on party

 6     line?  Was it based on ethnic?  Was it some other formula?

 7        A.   All the members were members of the League of Communists of

 8     Yugoslavia.  I was not a communist, so I don't know how they were

 9     selected.

10        Q.   Well, was it -- was there a representation of sorts on the

11     Executive Council to ensure that at least members of the community were

12     represented?

13        A.   In Gornji Vakuf, the population consists of Croats and Muslims

14     and very few others, and the communists did make sure that there was

15     ethnic balance before the multiparty elections.  So there was ethnic

16     balance in these bodies.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, let's discuss the executive council that you

18     were in.  You indicated that one of your functions was signing

19     conclusions, signing appointments.  Were those your decisions or

20     appointments or conclusions?

21        A.   Those decisions were the decisions of the body of the

22     Executive Council as such.  My duty was just to sign the documents or

23     conclusions or appointments made by the bodies.

24        Q.   And would it be fair to say that this was a collective body?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34286

 1        Q.   Now, what was the relationship between the Executive Council and

 2     the Municipal Assembly?

 3        A.   The Executive Council of the Assembly was duty-bound to report on

 4     its work to the Assembly of Gornji Vakuf, and the Municipal Assembly, in

 5     a sense, supervised the work of the Executive Board, assessed the quality

 6     of its work.  In other words, we were subject to their assessment, to

 7     their opinion, and, in the end, to their decisions.

 8        Q.   Now, can you give us an exact date when you took up your position

 9     as the president of the Executive Council?

10        A.   The first working day in 1992, that is, after the New Year

11     holiday.

12        Q.   And for how long or up until what time did you serve in that

13     capacity?

14        A.   Until the 11th of January, 1993, inclusive.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, very quickly, if we can just -- if you can help

16     us out here.  Did the Municipal Assembly continue to work all the way

17     throughout that period?

18        A.   Yes, but in a changed form.

19        Q.   And what form was that, sir?

20        A.   By decision of the Municipal Assembly of Gornji Vakuf, a crisis

21     staff was formed for the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf on the 7th of

22     April, 1992; and the Assembly, by its decision, transferred all the

23     competences to the Crisis Staff of the municipality.  That is the first

24     change.  And on the 22nd of June, after a state of war was proclaimed in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, all the competencies were passed on to the

Page 34287

 1     Council for National Defence or, rather, the Council for National Defence

 2     becomes the Presidency of the municipality with all the authority of the

 3     Municipal Assembly.

 4        Q.   When you say "Presidency," are we talking about War Presidency,

 5     for short?

 6        A.   Many called it "the War Presidency," but officially we called it

 7     "the Presidency of the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf."

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go back to the Crisis Staff.  First, could

 9     you please tell us, who were the members of the Crisis Staff now that the

10     Assembly had transferred all of its powers to the Crisis Staff upon its

11     decision?

12        A.   The Crisis Staff of the Municipal of Gornji Vakuf was formed on

13     the 7th of April, 1992, and it consisted of 15 members, 8 Muslims and 7

14     Croats.  The president of the Crisis Staff was the president of the

15     Municipal Assembly, Mr. Mohammed Palic, a Muslim; the deputy president of

16     the Crisis Staff was the president of the Executive Council of the

17     municipality, Zdravko Batinic; and then it also had another 13 members.

18     Among them were presidents of the local boards of the HDZ and the SDA.

19        Q.   All right.  These other members, now, you told us they were the

20     presidents of the local boards.  Had they been elected to the Assembly?

21     Were they Assembly members that were selected by the Assembly to sit on

22     the Crisis Staff?

23        A.   I said, Mr. Karnavas, that among the other 13 were also the

24     president of the HDZ and the SDA, but the members were appointed by the

25     Assembly.  So it was upon the proposal of the political parties that a

Page 34288

 1     decision was made to appoint members of the Crisis Staff, and that is how

 2     there was 8 plus 7 in favour of the Muslims, so a total of 15.

 3        Q.   Well, if I understand you correctly, then, it was the political

 4     parties who actually made the selection of who would be on the

 5     Crisis Staff, with the exception of the president of the Municipal

 6     Assembly and the president of the Executive Council, who were

 7     automatically members by virtue of their position.  Did I get it right?

 8        A.   No, there -- it was not automatic.  It was the proposal of the

 9     political parties that were part of the government, and the Assembly

10     confirmed their proposals.

11        Q.   But, Mr. Batinic, I just want to make sure I understand you.  You

12     mean to tell me the political parties could have removed the president of

13     the Assembly and put somebody else to become the president of the

14     Crisis Staff, or is it that the president of the Assembly and the

15     president of the Executive Council, by virtue of their position,

16     automatically become members of the Crisis Staff, and the others are

17     selected by the respective political parties?

18        A.   The statute of the Municipal Assembly did not envisage any

19     automatic appointments, and this was the first time in more recent

20     history that such a body was formed.  And these 15 members were appointed

21     upon the proposal of the political parties, and it was logical that among

22     them, the president of the Assembly and the president of the

23     Executive Council should be included.  That was only logical.

24        Q.   All right.  How often did the Crisis Staff meet?

25        A.   On the day that the Crisis Staff was appointed, it met for the

Page 34289

 1     first time in the evening hours and virtually on a daily basis after that

 2     or maybe every other day.

 3        Q.   And was anybody on the Crisis Staff that was from the armed

 4     forces, be it from one side or the other or both?

 5        A.   At that point in time, there were no members of the armed forces

 6     on the Crisis Staff.

 7        Q.   Well, in Gornji Vakuf, was the HVO in existence at the time?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And what about -- so this is -- this is 7 April 1992; the HVO did

10     not exist in Gornji Vakuf?

11        A.   On the 7th of April, 1992, the HVO did not exist in Gornji Vakuf.

12     We had an armed formation.  We called it the Municipal Staff.

13        Q.   All right.  And who belonged to this Municipal Staff?

14        A.   The Municipal Staff -- our Municipal Staff was composed of a

15     group of volunteers, mainly reserve officers of the JNA, as an operative

16     staff as of September 1991 and onwards.

17        Q.   Now, you say "we."  Who is "we"?

18        A.   I'm sorry.  I meant the Croats.  The Croats had their operative

19     staff in Gornji Vakuf, the Croats.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, did the Muslims have something similar?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And what was that, sir?

23        A.   They had a crisis staff and groups within that crisis staff,

24     organised through the Patriotic League and the Party of Democratic

25     Action.

Page 34290

 1        Q.   All right.  Did there come a time when invitations were extended,

 2     be it to the Municipal Staff or to the Patriotic League, to assist in any

 3     way the Crisis Staff?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Well, could you tell us about when and how?

 6        A.   At the first meeting of the Crisis Staff for the Municipality of

 7     Gornji Vakuf on the 7th of April, in the evening, the Crisis Staff of the

 8     HDZ of Gornji Vakuf municipality and of the Crisis Staff of the

 9     Patriotic League to propose three operatives, each so that an operative

10     staff for the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf could be formed.

11        Q.   And did that actually happen?  Did it materialise?

12        A.   Yes, it did take place.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that you met that first night.

14     How often -- well, when it met, did the Crisis Staff have minutes, for

15     instance?  Were minutes taken at these meetings?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And where were these meetings being held?

18        A.   The meetings of the Crisis Staff for Gornji Vakuf municipality

19     were held in the premises of the president of the Executive Council of

20     the Municipal Assembly.

21        Q.   Does that mean that was in your office?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that at some point, the

24     Crisis Staff becomes the Presidency or War Presidency.  That was, I

25     believe you said, June 22nd.  Were meetings held then?  Did the

Page 34291

 1     Presidency hold meetings?

 2        A.   On the 22nd of June, 1992, after a state of war was proclaimed in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Council for National Defence was transformed

 4     into the Presidency of the municipality.  That was in accordance with the

 5     regulations in force at the time, and each meeting of the Presidency that

 6     was held was held in my office.

 7        Q.   All right.  And were minutes taken then?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us how many meetings there would have been from,

10     say, June 22nd all the way until the 11th of January, 1993, when you

11     stopped being on the Executive Council or the Presidency?

12        A.   According to my records, there were exactly 16 meetings.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, very briefly, if you could tell us, from the

14     time the Crisis Staff was formed all the way until 11 of January, 1993,

15     were there any incidents in Gornji Vakuf?  And if so, I would like to

16     take them chronologically, one by one.

17        A.   Yes.  Unfortunately, there were incidents, some of them serious.

18             The first one occurred on the 20th of June, 1992, about noon.

19     There was exchanges of fire in town and the first mortars that were fired

20     from the Muslim part of the town at the Croatian part of the town.

21             The second notable incident occurred in the night between the

22     24th and 25th of October, and it went on for several days with small

23     lapses, which are due to the behaviour of the commander of the

24     Territorial Defence, Mr. Farudin Agic.  Several of their mortar shells

25     exploded in the Croatian part of the town.

Page 34292

 1        Q.   And was there any --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Mic, please.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   And was there an incident after that?

 5        A.   After these two mentioned incidents, the next incident -- or it's

 6     better to say that that was the beginning of the war between the HVO and

 7     the TO, which actually consisted exclusively of Muslims, started on the

 8     11th of January, 1993.

 9        Q.   All right.  And where were you in January 11th, 1993?  Could you

10     describe that day, at least, and then we'll work backwards.

11        A.   On the 11th of January, 1993, I came to my office, as usual, to

12     work.  On that day, I and the new president of the Presidency,

13     Mr. Abdulah Garaca, had a meeting with the European Monitors in his

14     office.  After that, I went home for lunch; and after that, I don't know

15     how, but the conflict started.

16        Q.   And after the conflict started, how long did it last?

17        A.   With more or less intensity, as long as the snipers were active,

18     this conflict came to an end on the 24th of February, 1993, in fact.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak

21     slower.

22             MR. KARNAVAS:

23        Q.   All right.  You'll need to speak a little slower so we can get

24     the full translation.

25             Okay.  Now, just a couple of matters that I want to touch on.

Page 34293

 1             First of all, were you a member of the HVO - and I'm talking

 2     about the military, you know - were you a soldier prior to the 11th of

 3     January, 1993?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you ever become a member of the HVO?

 6        A.   I did.

 7        Q.   At what point in time?

 8        A.   On the 30th of January, 1996, I -- 1993, I joined the volunteer

 9     forces of the HVO.

10        Q.   Okay.  That was the 13th of January?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I voluntarily joined

12     the HVO forces.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the 13th, correct.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   All right.  And we can talk about that at some point, but what

16     about the HVO Gornji Vakuf, the civilian authorities?  Were you a member

17     of the HVO Gornji Vakuf at any point in time?

18        A.   If you're talking about the HVO as executive government,

19     Zdravko Batinic wasn't a member of that body in Gornji Vakuf.

20        Q.   That's you?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   Okay.  Here you could say that you weren't, but -- all right.

23     Now, did it exist -- did the HVO, this executive government, if you will,

24     did it exist in Gornji Vakuf?  And if so, could you please describe to us

25     how it existed ?

Page 34294

 1        A.   In Gornji Vakuf, the HVO government body, administrative body,

 2     existed on paper.  It had a president and three or four individuals who

 3     were appointed by the decision of the president of the Croatian Community

 4     of Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Mate Boban, and that was it.

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, did this executive authority, this HVO

 6     Gornji Vakuf, ever attempt to take over the Executive Council or the

 7     Crisis Staff of the Presidency?  Did it make any moves, political or

 8     military, to take over those authorities?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   To your understanding, did the HVO Gornji Vakuf have a police

11     force?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did it pass decisions on administrative matters, such as

14     taxation?

15        A.   As far as I know, it didn't.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, did you ever participate in any meetings that

17     were being held by members of the HVO Gornji Vakuf?  And if so, could you

18     please describe them to us?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  I was invited to a number of meetings of the HVO as

20     a member of the executive authority, as the most responsible person

21     working in the municipal bodies of power, on behalf of the Croatian

22     people, naturally.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, who was the president of the HVO Gornji Vakuf,

24     this executive authority?

25        A.   The president was Mr. Ivan Saric, the president of the HVO civil

Page 34295

 1     authority.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Did he hold another position at the time as well?

 3        A.   Yes, he did.  He was the president of the Municipal Board of the

 4     HDZ for the Gornji Vakuf municipality.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to speak a little

 6     more slowly.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.

 8        Q.   I'm asked that you -- if you could speak a little slower, it

 9     would be most helpful, and maybe enunciate.  They're having a hard time.

10             Was Mr. Saric at the time a -- or you were a member of the

11     Presidency at the time, correct, when you were attending these meetings?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What about Mr. Saric?  Was he also a member of the Presidency?

14        A.   Mr. Ivan Saric was a member of the Crisis Staff of the

15     Gornji Vakuf municipality, and he was a member of the Presidency for the

16     Gornji Vakuf municipality.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, did Mr. Saric at any point in time try to impose

18     the will, his will or the will of HVO Gornji Vakuf, this executive

19     authority, upon that of the Crisis Staff or the Presidency?

20        A.   No, he didn't.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go back to these incidents that we spoke

22     of.

23             You told us that the first incident happened on or about June

24     1992.  Can you tell us, who was responsible, in your opinion, if you

25     know, for that incident?

Page 34296

 1        A.   As far as I know, the person responsible for the first armed

 2     clash in Gornji Vakuf was Hanefija Prijic, also known as Paraga.  He was

 3     a commander of the Green Beret unit.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Was this Green Beret unit also participating or assisting

 5     in any way the Crisis Staff at the time?

 6        A.   All armed formations in the area of Gornji Vakuf were considered

 7     by the Crisis Staff of Gornji Vakuf to be legitimate.

 8        Q.   All right.  So are you saying -- well, was the HVO considered

 9     legitimate?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Was the Patriotic League considered legitimate?

12        A.   As part of the Territorial Defence, they were considered to be

13     legitimate.

14        Q.   And what about these Green Berets under this fellow named Paraga

15     or aka Paraga?

16        A.   I think that the Green Beret unit was founded and armed by the

17     Patriotic League, and they were directly linked to them.

18        Q.   Was he from the area?

19        A.   Yes.  He was born in a settlement called Voljice in the

20     Municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

21        Q.   Now, were there any units from Croatia there, HV units?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Were there any individuals there who had come from Croatia and

24     were participating in any armed force activity?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34297

 1        Q.   And who were they?

 2        A.   They were members of the Croatian people who had gone to war as

 3     volunteers to the Republic of Croatia.  This was when there was Serbian

 4     aggression carried out against the Republic of Croatia.  And after the

 5     war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out, many of them, almost all of

 6     them, came to the territory in which they had grown up or to the

 7     territory that their parents were from, so there was a significant number

 8     of Croats from the Municipality of Gornji Vakuf.  And as members of the

 9     Croatian Army, they were in the Croatian Army, and then they went to

10     Gornji Vakuf and joined the units of the HVO.

11        Q.   All right.  When --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Just a minute.

13             MS. MOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             I'm just asking for the time period here to be specified.  The

15     witness -- the witness is talking about HV members, and I'd like to know

16     more about when that was.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  That was my next question.

18        Q.   When did these folks arrive?

19        A.   They started arriving at the beginning of April 1992.  They

20     started to arrive in our territory.

21        Q.   All right.  Was there a particular unit; and if so, did it have a

22     name; and if so, what was it?

23        A.   I don't know that there was a particular unit that had only such

24     members.

25        Q.   Was anyone in particular who was in charge, a commander?

Page 34298

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Now, after the events in June, on June 20th, could you please

 3     describe to us the atmosphere in Gornji Vakuf?

 4        A.   It's very difficult to explain this when there are two friendly

 5     peoples who are involved in an armed conflict for the first time.  There

 6     is fear, suspicion, a lack of trust.  This escalates.  This is something

 7     that had never happened before.  This happened on the 26th [as

 8     interpreted], and then there was fear, a lack of understanding.  It's

 9     very difficult to explain such a situation.

10        Q.   When you say it happened on the 26th, when it happened on the

11     26th, which day -- which month are we talking about?

12        A.   The 26th [as interpreted] of June, 1992.

13        Q.   Was it -- I'm told that it's 20th --

14        A.   20th, the 20th.

15        Q.   So I would ask you to please enunciate to make sure that we have

16     a correct record.

17             So -- all right.  Now, were check-points put up in Gornji Vakuf,

18     and if so, by whom?

19        A.   Check-points at the entrance and exit in Gornji Vakuf were set up

20     at three places:  One in the direction of Gornji Vakuf to Prozor, one in

21     the direction of Gornji Vakuf in the direction of Bugojno, and one in the

22     direction of Gornji Vakuf towards Novi Travnik.  At these check-points,

23     there were members of the HVO and of the Territorial Defence.

24        Q.   All right.  At that point in time, can you tell us whether the

25     HVO and the Territorial Defence were getting along?  Were they

Page 34299

 1     cooperating, coordinating?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  To what extent?

 4        A.   After the HVO had lost Kupres, units of the HVO from the

 5     Gornji Vakuf municipality held the defence line at the Radisa Mountain in

 6     the direction of Kupres.  After a certain amount of time, the HVO units

 7     were joined by Territorial Defence units at the same line.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  The clock should stop because now I'm waiting.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.

10             MS. MOE:  Thank you.  I'm asking for time specifics, again, both

11     on the check-points that were mentioned and also on this last portion on

12     Kupres.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:

14        Q.   What month are we talking about, because I thought we were still

15     on June 20th, 1992.

16        A.   The check-points that were held by the HVO and the Territorial

17     Defence were held from the beginning of April 1992.  This was at the

18     entrance to Gornji Vakuf municipality and at the exit from that

19     municipality.  Their cooperation at the defence lines in the direction of

20     Kupres was from May until the beginning of the January conflict in 1993.

21     These were the defence lines facing the Serbs.

22        Q.   Okay.  What year -- this is until the conflict of 1993?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, after the June incident, did those check-points

25     continue to exist, the same ones, or did -- were there additional ones?

Page 34300

 1        A.   There were no additional check-points.  When a day or two later

 2     the situation had become more stable, the forces of the HVO and

 3     Territorial Defence were at the same check-points again.

 4        Q.   Now, did the Presidency ever make any efforts to find out what

 5     exactly happened on June 20th, or 18th, 19th, 20th, those days?

 6        A.   The Presidency of the Gornji Vakuf municipality issued an order

 7     requesting that an investigation be launched by the authorised organs of

 8     the HVO and the Territorial Defence and the police station.  They were to

 9     investigate the reasons for which this incident had occurred on the 20th

10     of June, 1992.  They were to determine who was responsible and who

11     started it.

12        Q.   And was that resolved?  Did they ever come up with a report?

13        A.   Yes.  They forwarded their reports to us as the Presidency of the

14     Municipality, a report which was written, and they said they weren't

15     fully in agreement with regard to the character of that incident, with

16     regard to the perpetrators or those who had started the conflict.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, the next incident that occurred around the 24th

18     /25th of October, could you please tell us what happened then, and for

19     how long did it last?

20        A.   I have to go back two or three days.

21        Q.   Well, go for it.

22        A.   Okay.  On the 19th of June -- I apologise.  On the 19th of

23     October, 1992, there was some kind of an incident in Novi Travnik.  In a

24     certain way, it increased tension in the territory of our municipality

25     too.  On the 19th, the 20th, and the 21st and the 22nd, 23rd and 24th of

Page 34301

 1     October, the structure of the civilian authorities in the Municipality of

 2     Gornji Vakuf, the representatives of the HVO and the Territorial Defence

 3     attempted to have daily meetings.  Sometimes they had two meetings a day,

 4     and they also had a peace march through the town.  And they did all this

 5     in order to prevent incidents from breaking out in our municipality.  But

 6     between the 24th and 25th, unfortunately, things got out of hand.  Some

 7     shells were launched by the Territorial Defence on the Croatian part of

 8     Gornji Vakuf; and as a result, a conflict between the HVO and the

 9     Territorial Defence broke out.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is once against kindly asked to

11     slow down.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:

13        Q.   I'm being told to tell you to slow down, so please slow down,

14     enunciate, because it's very important that we get the full translation.

15             Did you participate in the peace march?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, after this incident or incidents, did the Presidency or

18     members of the Presidency hold a meeting to find out what had happened,

19     who did what to whom and why?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Were there any meetings held at the end of October concerning

22     this?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And could you please describe them?

25        A.   On the 30th of October, 1992, in the old hotel, we held the first

Page 34302

 1     meeting of the representatives of the Croats and of the Muslims.  At that

 2     meeting -- well, that meeting was attended by the most important

 3     representatives of the Muslims and the Croats.  There were commanders of

 4     armed units who also attended, commanders of the HVO and of the TO, the

 5     Territorial Defence.

 6             On the following day, on the 31st of October, a similar body met,

 7     and the purpose of this meeting was to try and calm the situation down,

 8     to return to some kind of a normal life.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, at that meeting, did you learn who had been

10     responsible for starting the incident back on the 24th of October,

11     24th/25th?

12        A.   There were various assessments made.  However, Farudin Agic gave

13     a statement, which was put in such a way that he, in fact, indirectly

14     admitted that the forces of the Territorial Defence had started the

15     conflict.

16        Q.   If you recall, could you please describe in greater detail what

17     exactly Mr. Agic said that led you to believe that it was the forces of

18     the Territorial Defence that had started this conflict?

19        A.   Three or four days that preceded the 24th of October, 1992, well,

20     in the light of the conversations of the Croatian and Muslim leadership,

21     we tried to avoid incidents of any kind through these conversations.  We

22     promised each other that TO units and HVO units would not be used against

23     Croats or Muslims.  We promised each other not a single Command of the

24     HVO and TO would send any units outside the area of Gornji Vakuf.  In

25     other words, we tried to guarantee for each other that such a conflict

Page 34303

 1     wouldn't break out.

 2             However, on the meeting held on the 30th of October, 1992,

 3     Mr. Agic said quite precisely, contrary to our agreement, a company from

 4     Priboj [as interpreted] as been sent out, which together with Muslims

 5     forces from Hara [phoen] attacked the HVO at the Medik [phoen] elevation.

 6     He added that the situation was out of control, and then individual

 7     commanders willfully took a decision, lost their nerves, and launched a

 8     few shells on the Croatian part of town.  They destroyed some routes on

 9     the Prozor-Gornji Vakuf road.  This was a direct admission of how the

10     conflict in Gornji Vakuf had broken out on that date.

11        Q.   Now, you indicated that the next incident began on or about 11

12     January 1993, and before we discuss that incident, can you please tell us

13     what the situation was like in Gornji Vakuf, say, at the end of October,

14     beginning of November, all the way until January 11th, when the next

15     conflict began?

16        A.   From the beginning of November 1992 up until the end of 1992,

17     things became more normal, although there was a lot of distrust, an

18     incredible amount of distrust.  However, nothing happened that would make

19     one think that we could expect some kind of a new incident in the future.

20             However, in the period from Christmas up until the 25th of

21     December, until the 6th of January, in fact, 1993, there were incidents

22     which broke out because the Muslim representatives who would remove

23     Croatian symbols, insignia, that Croats would put up for Christmas and

24     the new year.

25        Q.   All right.  We're going to get to that when we look at some of

Page 34304

 1     the documents, but let me just get a little ahead of myself because we do

 2     have a document saying that flags of either side were not to be

 3     displayed, and now you're telling us here that Croatian symbols and

 4     insignia were being displayed around Christmas and New Year's.  Can you

 5     explain that?  If there was a decision not to have those displays, how

 6     was it that they went up around Christmas and New Year?

 7        A.   The definite decision that you are referring to had to do with

 8     the period from the 24th of June, 1992, and the purpose was to calm down

 9     the situation after the first incident that broke out in Gornji Vakuf on

10     the 20th of June, 1992.  However, for Christmas and the New Year, Croats

11     in Bosnia and Herzegovina traditionally put out their national symbols.

12     In this case, the Croatian flag in Bosnia-Herzegovina had been put up at

13     a few sites in town.  This irritated someone, and then Muslims and

14     members of the armed forces and of the Territorial Defence took those

15     flags down on several occasions.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, first, a point of clarification.  You said the

17     Croatian flag, and some of us may think that this is the flag of the

18     Republic of Croatia.  Is that what we're talking about?

19        A.   No, no.  I said the flag of the Croatian people in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina, which has a different coat of arms from the coat of arms

21     that you see on the flag of the Republic of Croatia.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, prior to this incident, prior to Christmas, were

23     there any Muslim holidays?  And if so, did the Muslims in Gornji Vakuf

24     display their symbols, their flag or what have you, in celebration of

25     their religious holiday?

Page 34305

 1        A.   Yes.  On that year [as interpreted] before Christmas, the Muslims

 2     celebrated Bajram or Gurban Bajram to be more precise, and there were

 3     flags and symbols that they had put up in town.  There was the green flag

 4     with a half moon and the flag with the lilies, and no one touched them.

 5     No one took them down.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.  I believe it's time for the break,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  It's quarter to 4.00,

 9     and we will have our technical 20-minute break.  We will resume in 20

10     minutes' time.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  The hearing is resumed.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:

15        Q.   All right.  Mr. Batinic, we left off around 11 January 1993.  If

16     you could briefly just tell us, to the best of your knowledge, what

17     happened on that day.  I know that you went to work, you went to your

18     office, and I believe you indicated that later on that afternoon is when

19     the conflict broke out.  Could you tell us, to your understanding, what

20     exactly occurred?

21        A.   I have to say that I don't know what exactly happened or how the

22     conflict started on the 11th of January, 1993, in Gornji Vakuf, so I just

23     don't have enough information or knowledge to tell you that.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that at some point, you did join

25     the HVO.  Could you tell us about what time that was, what period of

Page 34306

 1     time?

 2        A.   On the 13th of January, 1993, in the evening, I was in a house,

 3     which was about 150 metres away from my house and where the Command of

 4     the HVO was situated to defend the part of the town inhabited by Croats.

 5     According to information conveyed to me and which were not at all good

 6     for the HVO, there was a danger of the breakthrough of the Muslim forces

 7     into the Croatian part of the town.  In view of the fact that my house

 8     [as interpreted] and my family [as interpreted], inhabited by my small

 9     children and my wife, was only some 150 metres away from the separation

10     line, I voluntarily placed myself at the service of the HVO, put on a

11     uniform, picked up a rifle, and became a member of the HVO armed forces.

12        Q.   Perhaps it may be a good time at this point to look at the map

13     that you provided us; and so we could just very briefly inform the Trial

14     Chamber, I will not ask you anything in detail.  Others can.  They may

15     have more time to do so, but I -- perhaps if we could put it on the ELMO,

16     and you could help us out here a little bit.

17             I don't know if that's helpful for the Trial Chamber, but at

18     least can you tell us -- all right.  First of all, where did you get this

19     map from?

20        A.   I got this map as chief of Uskoplje municipality in the period of

21     1996 from a member of the peace-keeping forces stationed in the territory

22     of Gornji Vakuf Municipality.

23        Q.   We're going to need you to mark some areas on this map, so I'm

24     going to need to have you -- do you have a pen that's handy?  Otherwise,

25     I can provide you with something.  The gentleman behind you will provide

Page 34307

 1     you with a magic marker.

 2             Mr. Batinic, you're going to need to mark the map itself.  All

 3     right?  If you could please first describe what it is that we're seeing.

 4        A.   We are seeing a map of Gornji Vakuf, the urban part of the

 5     Municipality of Gornji Vakuf.

 6        Q.   Could you please tell us where your offices were located, where

 7     the Executive Council met?

 8        A.   The municipality building was here [indicating].

 9        Q.   Okay.  Just put an "M" there.  Okay.  Could you mark it with an

10     "M", please, because later on we will not be able to determine what

11     marking signifies what.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Now, where was your house at the time?

14        A.   [Indicates] Here.

15        Q.   Okay.  Could you put an "H" there for "House"?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Eventually, there was a confrontation line, as I understand it,

18     in Gornji Vakuf.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And could you please draw that?  Where was the confrontation

21     line?

22        A.   [Indicates]

23        Q.   All right.  And you might want to put a "C" there so we know

24     later on that this is the confrontation line.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 34308

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us where you were stationed or where you

 2     were located when you were serving in the HVO?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Now, were you there the entire time in that location?

 5        A.   For the first ten days, from the 13th of January until the 23rd

 6     or 24th of January, 1993.

 7        Q.   All right.  Why don't you put a "1," then.  Put a "1" next to the

 8     line so we know that this line signifies where you were initially.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And after that, where did you move to?  What location?

11        A.   To the so-called industrial zone.  [Marks]

12        Q.   Okay.  And where were you exactly located?

13        A.   [Indicating]

14        Q.   Maybe you could put a "2" around that circle so we know you that

15     were located there.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And perhaps you can tell us why you moved from your initial

18     position, designated as "1," to the industrial zone, which is designated

19     as "2."  What was the reason?

20        A.   When the forces of the HVO gained control of a strategic quarter

21     above the town of Gornji Vakuf - we called it the relay, which was

22     here [indicates] - then there was no longer any danger of the Muslim

23     forces passing through Glavica here [indicates] attacking the settlement

24     here [indicates], which was originally Croatian, and that is why the

25     decision was made --

Page 34309

 1        Q.   Let me stop you here, because we have to go step by step, because

 2     saying "here" and "there" later on, on the transcript, is not going to be

 3     very helpful.  So we have to designate it on the map itself.

 4        A.   [In English] Okay.

 5        Q.   So why don't you tell us where the HVO was.  Can you put "HVO" in

 6     the locations where they were located?  And then we'll do the same thing

 7     with the TO.

 8        A.   [Interpretation] The HVO was situated in this part of

 9     town [indicates], from the -- left of the confrontation line.  [Marks]

10        Q.   All right.  And put "HVO" because you have an "H" already there.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   All right.  And where were the Muslim forces?

13        A.   Right of the separation line.

14        Q.   Okay.  Put down "TO."  All right.

15        A.   And here, too.  [Indicates]  [Marks]

16        Q.   What's that second part where you have the "TO" again, the second

17     TO?  What is that location?

18        A.   An elevation point above the town of Gornji Vakuf where the TV

19     relay station was located.

20        Q.   And is that a significant location?  And if so, why?

21        A.   From this position, one controls the entire territory of the

22     town.  With fire from firearms, one could hit virtually anyone.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, let me go back to my initial question.  You

24     indicated that you moved from location 1 to location 2, the industrial

25     zone.  Why did you move there?  What was there that made you and others,

Page 34310

 1     I suspect, move to that location?

 2        A.   After a unit that was stationed in the industrial zone at the

 3     beginning of the conflict had left, this area was left undefended by the

 4     HVO.  And since all Croatian-inhabited areas were behind the industrial

 5     zone, it was necessary to protect this area.

 6        Q.   When you say "this area," we're talking about the area that you

 7     circled, or is there more area than the one that is encircled?

 8        A.   From the road leading from Gornji Vakuf towards Bugojno passing

 9     along the industrial zone, all the settlements behind that industrial

10     zone, which cannot be seen on this map, were inhabited by Croats.

11        Q.   All right.  Why don't you draw an arrow so at least we know

12     exactly where the Croats are inhabited.  Draw an arrow in the direction

13     which they are located.

14             Perhaps we could give the gentleman -- I'm sure the Tribunal

15     could afford something more robust than the magic marker that we've

16     handed him.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   All right.  Now, if you could please tell us, how long were you

19     in that location, number 2?

20        A.   Until the 24th of February, 1993.

21        Q.   Who else was there with you?

22        A.   There was a group of Domobrans, as we call them, of some 20 men,

23     among them the former president of the Basic Court in Bugojno, teachers,

24     engineers, older people who were from this part -- of our part of town

25     who were not in other units of the HVO, in other words, the Home Guard.

Page 34311

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, you indicated that that conflict began on or

 2     about 11 January 1993, and it went all the way until, I believe you said,

 3     the 24th of February, 1993.  You've indicated to us that there was a

 4     separation line that we can see that you have drawn and designated as

 5     "C."  Can you please tell us at what point in time the separation line

 6     went away.

 7        A.   At the end of February 1993.

 8        Q.   All right.  So after 1993, there was no separation line;

 9     everybody went back?  Everybody could move around Gornji Vakuf as before?

10        A.   Quite so.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.  Now, I have no further questions at

12     this time regarding this map.  If the Trial Chamber wishes to ask any

13     questions ...

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, a small technical

15     question.

16             On the map, you have indicated the positions of the Territorial

17     Defence of the Muslims, I assume, the TO.  At the time, was it not the

18     BiH army rather than the TO?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know exactly

20     when the TO or the army of the Muslim people proclaimed themselves to be

21     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That is why I called them the TO,

22     because it was exclusively composed of Muslims.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  And what was the

24     name of their leader?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume the commander of the TO

Page 34312

 1     Staff was the commander.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  But what was his name?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Fahrudin Agic.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Batinic, during that time that you were an

 5     active soldier, did you ever have enemy contact?  Did you ever have

 6     within shooting range an enemy, someone from the TO, as you call it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the lines that we held as

 8     defence, we were all exposed to small-fire arms.  To small-arms fire, I'm

 9     sorry.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I can understand that, but did any enemy soldier

11     come near?  Did you ever have to reject an attack, actually, enemy

12     movement, or was it more a static situation such as we have reports from

13     periods during World War I?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the defence line that I was at,

15     there were no attempts by the Muslim forces to break through physically.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  You want a number for this

18     document, Mr. Karnavas?

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  That's correct, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes.  Mr. Registrar, can we

21     have a number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be given Exhibit number IC 00878.  Thank

23     you, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:

25        Q.   Now, before we leave -- before we leave this, just a couple of

Page 34313

 1     technical questions.

 2             You showed us where your house was.  On January 11th when you

 3     went to work, did you know or did you expect that something was about to

 4     happen that particular day?

 5        A.   I did not.

 6        Q.   Do you know whether anything was planned, pre-planned?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Now, of course you weren't a member of the HVO, the military

 9     component.  Who was the commander of the HVO?

10        A.   The commander of the HVO in Gornji Vakuf was Mr. Zrinko Tokic.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  I believe he has to sign the document, although I

12     don't -- technically, I don't think it's necessary, although somehow it's

13     become a tradition.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  It's not obligatory, but it's

15     always better to do more than not enough, so please sign the document.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  If you could sign the document.

17             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

18             MR. KARNAVAS:  And maybe put a date on it, too, so we know.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Mic, please.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  If you could date it also, Mr. Batinic.  It's the

21     10th, I believe, 10/11.

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Usher.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Tokic, did you know him at the time?

25        A.   Yes.  I knew Mr. Tokic very well, and I can say that at the time,

Page 34314

 1     he was a friend of mine.

 2        Q.   All right.  And by the way, your offices, what side of town were

 3     they located?

 4        A.   The building of the Municipal Assembly and my office were in the

 5     part of town inhabited 90 per cent by Muslims in those days.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'm going to need the assistance of the usher to

 7     give you your documents, and we're going to start going through them in a

 8     rather quick pace, and you can turn to the first document.  It's 1D

 9     02699, 1D 02699.

10             Do you recognise the document, sir?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And what is it, sir?

13        A.   This is the first statute of the HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina

14     passed at the founding assembly in Sarajevo on the 18th of August, 1990.

15        Q.   Could you please tell us whether you had attended that particular

16     assembly?  You did indicate to us that you were a member of HDZ.

17        A.   I was present at the founding meeting as an envoy of the HDZ for

18     Gornji Vakuf.

19        Q.   All right.  So I take it you are familiar with this particular

20     statute.

21        A.   Yes, I am.

22        Q.   Now, perhaps you could help us out here a little bit because one

23     of the central issues here is, of course, what was the HDZ, what was its

24     principles; and of course, later on that ties into the Croatian Community

25     of Herceg-Bosna.  So if I could get you to look at Article 4, for

Page 34315

 1     instance, in this document.  Article 4, do you have it, sir?  It may be

 2     easier if you just look at the hard copy.

 3             All right.  Now, in Article 4, it says here that the BH HDZ shall

 4     be active in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then it goes on to talk about that

 5     the BH HDZ is a constitutive part of the united HDZ organisation whose

 6     seat is in Zagreb.  Could you please tell us, what did that mean, keeping

 7     in mind that this is 18 August 1990.

 8        A.   The HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina was considered a constituent

 9     part of the planet-wide organisation of the Croatian Democratic Union.

10        Q.   At that period in time, 18 August 1990, was Croatia an

11     independent nation?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And I take it the same goes with the -- with Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   So you still had a Yugoslavia intact?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, what happened once the Republic of Croatia became

18     independent, as did the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19        A.   The HDZ for Bosnia and Herzegovina was an autonomous political

20     organisation, active exclusively within the territory of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we go to page 16 of the English document, and

23     I believe you might have it marked.  I don't know exactly what page it is

24     for you, but it's titled "Programme Declaration of the Founding Assembly

25     of the Croatian Democratic Union of BH."  Do you have that located, sir?

Page 34316

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we look at this, look at Roman numeral III.

 3     Perhaps you can help us out here.  It says here:

 4             "In accordance with these starting points and opinions," the ones

 5     that are referred to in 1 and 2, "the HDZ BH will focus on establishing

 6     the constitutional and legal order of the original parliamentary

 7     pluralistic democracy.  Implementation of this order must be founded on

 8     consistent adherence, without exception, to the general human rights

 9     declaration, which was proclaimed 10 December 1948."

10             And then if we go all the way down to, for instance, A, B and C,

11     we see -- in particular, what interests me is number C:

12             "Diversity is inherent to a pluralist society, so the HDZ BH,

13     too, is pluralist in all its constituent and working elements."

14             What does that mean?  Can you help us out?

15        A.   This means that we, as a political party in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     advocated a pluralist society, a multiethnic state, for equal rights of

17     all three nations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for equal rights of all

18     constituent peoples, that is, the Croats, Serbs and Muslims.

19        Q.   Now, if we could go on to the next document, 1D 02798.  I won't

20     ask you any questions concerning what is a constituent nation or peoples.

21     Others may wish to ask.  I think that topic has been discussed at length

22     throughout the last three years in this case.

23             Do you have the document, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   All right.  If I could focus your attention to the lower part of

Page 34317

 1     the first page where it says "Here..." -- well, first, let me ask you, do

 2     you recognise this document?  It says:  "Election declaration of the

 3     people of Gornji Vakuf Municipality."  Do you recognise the document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the last page or the end of this

 6     document, we do not see a date.  We see a reference in the very first

 7     paragraph, but we don't see a date at the end.  Do you know -- do you

 8     have any idea on or about when this document was made?

 9        A.   The election declaration to the inhabitants of Gornji Vakuf by

10     the Municipal Board of the HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina was issued by

11     the Municipal Board of the HDZ of Gornji Vakuf prior to the first

12     multiparty elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the eve of those

13     elections.

14        Q.   All right.  And, of course, you have seen this document before,

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In fact, how is it that I have it to show it to you?

18        A.   All members of the Municipal Board of the HDZ of Gornji Vakuf

19     took part in the drafting of this document, which means I was also a

20     participant.

21        Q.   All right.  But how did I get a hold of it?  That's my question.

22     I'm trying to lay a foundation without leading.

23        A.   I gave you this document from my own archives.

24        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Now, if we look at the -- if we focus our

25     attention towards the latter part of the first page, it says:

Page 34318

 1             "Here are the basic principles of our election platform:  By

 2     voting for the HDZ, you will vote for ..."

 3             And it talks about irrefutable sovereignty of BiH, equality of

 4     the Croatian people as a constituent and state-building nation of BiH.

 5     You then go on -- it then goes on to talk about economic, trait --

 6     spiritual and cultural ties with -- between BH, Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     Croatia and Europe, since they constitute a single entity.

 8             And then it goes on to say:

 9             "... transformation of BiH into a confederative, democratic,

10     multiparty and parliamentary state founded on the respect of human rights

11     and freedoms of all citizens who enjoy the same status and equality,

12     regardless of their nationality, religion or belief."

13             Could you please tell us, what exactly is this document talking

14     about, since you participated in this process at the time this document

15     was generated?

16        A.   By this document, the Municipal Board of the HDZ of Gornji Vakuf

17     sent a message to their voters and calling them to vote and indicating

18     what the HDZ of Gornji Vakuf would be advocating and, generally speaking,

19     the whole HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of course, after the elections

20     are completed and once we take part in the bodies of authority in the

21     municipality and the state.

22        Q.   All right.  If you go on to the second page, there are two items

23     that I'm sure may have piqued someone's interest in and around this

24     courtroom.  This would be the same page for you.  It talks about:

25             "Put an end to demographic discontent; a democratic revival of

Page 34319

 1     the Croatian ethnic being -- putting to an end to the departure and a

 2     speedy and full return of the Croats who have moved away."

 3             What is meant by "to put an end to demographic discontent"?  Some

 4     may think that this has something to do with ethnic cleansing.

 5             MS. MOE:  I object to leading, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  I don't know how this is leading.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Karnavas, rephrase your

 9     question in general terms.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  In general terms.  Okay.

11        Q.   What is meant by "demographic discontent"?

12        A.   Before the first multiparty elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

13     given political persecution, unemployment and certain other reasons, the

14     Croats emigrated from Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It was perhaps for

15     political reasons or because they couldn't find work in Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina, and this has to do with demographic discontent, above all.

17        Q.   And then if we go further down, it talks about --

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry.  Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas.  I would like

19     to understand what is meant by "demographic discontent," and I must

20     confess that so far I've heard that people left because of the economic

21     situation, and I cannot link that to the term "demographic discontent."

22     So if you could try to explain this term, I would be grateful, Mr. Puntic

23     [sic].

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A significant number of Croats in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina had to leave Bosnia and Herzegovina for political

Page 34320

 1     reasons.  A significant number of Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina had

 2     to go after bread outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina because at the time,

 3     at the time of the communist period, there was discrimination when it

 4     came to employing Croatians.  So this demographic content mostly had to

 5     do with this:  Demographic renewal assumed that in a new Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina, in a multiparty Bosnia-Herzegovina, the state would take

 7     care of young families.  They would provide incentives.  When it came to

 8     accommodation, they'd give them family leave -- give them maternity leave

 9     that would last for one year, and so on and so forth.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  So if I understand you correctly, in more

11     conventional language, what you mean by "demographic discontent," others

12     would call "discrimination on ethical grounds."  Is that what you're

13     actually saying?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:

17        Q.   All right.  Well, let me -- let me perhaps add a couple of

18     questions to this one.

19             You indicated that the Croatian peoples were one of the

20     constituent nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Muslims and the Serbs

21     being the other two.  Can you tell us, what was the percentage of the

22     Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina among the population?

23        A.   According to the census of 1991, in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were

24     17.3 per cent of Croats out of the total number of the population,

25     17.3 per cent.

Page 34321

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, is there a distinction between being a

 2     constituent nation and a national minority?  And if so, could you please

 3     tell us what that distinction is?

 4        A.   A constituent nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- well, the

 5     constituent nations were the Croats, the Serbs and the Muslims; and they

 6     were, in fact, the bearers of the statehood of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And

 7     as a constituent people, any one of those three peoples mentioned had the

 8     right to expect that they could participate in government, that

 9     government would be shared between the constituent peoples in an equal

10     manner.  National minorities could not expect or count on being included

11     in this division of power, in sharing in government, and that's the

12     significant distinction that has to be made.

13        Q.   And did that exist prior to the first free elections?

14        A.   Yes, but as to what extent, when it comes to the Croatian people

15     -- well, at the time I hadn't spent much time in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16     so I could not really say, but I do know that people were unhappy with

17     the way in which they were represented.

18        Q.   All right.  Now, does there come a point where, with the

19     percentage, if it drops to a certain point -- you have 17.3, 1991 census.

20     If that percentage drops, is there the possibility that the Croats or any

21     constituent nation might lose its status as a constituent nation and

22     become a minority -- a national minority?

23        A.   I don't know what the critical threshold is in terms of the

24     percentage of the population or, rather, of a given people in Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina, but this should never happen in any event, since we're

Page 34322

 1     talking about constituent peoples here.

 2        Q.   All right.  One last item on this document.  Towards the end of

 3     the page, it talks about the obligation of the existing system of

 4     teaching alphabets and that the Latin alphabet, in the Croatian language,

 5     should be used in the textbooks.  Could you please explain to us, why was

 6     this in the platform?

 7        A.   In this way, we were demanding that the Latin script be used in

 8     schools and that our children in schools learn the Croatian language.  We

 9     wanted educational programmes to be in the Croatian language for our

10     children.  We did not dispute the right that other peoples or, rather,

11     the other peoples had to organise the educational system as they desired.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to the next document, 1D 02579.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Before we go on to the

14     following document:  Witness, I've just had a look at the last document,

15     2798, and I compared it to the first document, 2698.  The second document

16     was adopted the 22nd of September, a few days later, and the first

17     document was adopted on the 18th of August.  And when we have a look at

18     the two documents, we have the impression that the second follows on

19     immediately from the first document.  In the first document, Article 10

20     states quite explicitly that the HDZ is fighting to be included in the

21     European Union.  In the second document, we have something to the same

22     effect.  This is 1990.  At the time, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina had

23     not yet been recognised as independent republics.  At the time, we still

24     had the ancient -- the old communist system.

25             Since very explicit reference is made to the European Union,

Page 34323

 1     would you say that there was a general consensus, at least at the level

 2     of the HDZ, when it came to this idea of joining the European Union?

 3     What would your opinion be?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All those who became members of the

 5     HDZ and accepted the HDZ programme and its principles agreed with what is

 6     stated under Article 10 of the first statute of the BH statute, and they

 7     also agreed with everything that was in the declaration of their

 8     programme.  So the statute was accepted, and the principles according to

 9     which the party should operate were also accepted.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  When we see these

11     two documents and the role that the Croats had to play in the future, I

12     wonder why the Gornji Vakuf HDZ at the election held on the 22nd of

13     September, 1990, mentions the Croatian people; but you speak about Bosnia

14     and Herzegovina and about Croatia.  Weren't there any Croats in Serbia?

15     What happened to the Croats from Serbia?  Why is there no reference to

16     the Croats in Serbia?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to

18     correct something.  This document mentions or refers to document 798.  It

19     mentions the 22nd of September, 1990, which is when there was an

20     electoral assembly of the municipal organisation of HDZ for the

21     Gornji Vakuf municipality, and this document was drafted later on, just

22     before the first multiparty elections held in Bosnia and Herzegovina; in

23     other words, at the beginning of November, 1990.  This document had to be

24     based on the statute of the HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina and on the

25     principles contained in the programme of the HDZ in Bosnia and

Page 34324

 1     Herzegovina, in a certain sense.  And when we talk about economic,

 2     spiritual and civilization matters, well, in a certain way we are

 3     confirming our roots in Europe.  We always believe that we, in some

 4     sense, belong to the West.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, but you haven't answered

 6     my question.  Why did one deliberately leave out the Croats in Serbia?

 7     Why is there no reference made to them?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are an organisation that is

 9     active in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

11             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

12        Q.   If we go on to the next document, 1D 02579.  1D 02579.  We see

13     this is the political charter of the HDZ BH, and if we look at the end of

14     this document, we see "Mostar, November 1992."  And it's signed by the

15     HDZ Central Committee Chairman Mate Boban.

16             Were you aware of this document, sir, at the time when it was

17     generated?

18        A.   I saw it after it was drafted.

19        Q.   And you provided me with this document, as well, correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, if we look at paragraph number 3 -- Roman numeral III,

22     again, we see that the Croatian Democratic Union is in favour of

23     immediate cessation of war in BH and for the internal structure of BH

24     based on the following principles:

25             "1.  BH is a sovereign, independent and

Page 34325

 1     internationally-recognised state;

 2             "2:  BH comprises three constitutional and equal nations, the

 3     Croats, the Muslims and the Serbs;

 4             "3.  HDZ BH is in favour of internal structure based on the

 5     principles established with the European Community and agreement reached

 6     between Tudjman and Izetbegovic."

 7             And then it goes on to say:

 8             "Croatian Democratic Union is in favour of BH as a state of three

 9     constitutive units as the only solution that will guarantee all the civil

10     and national rights of the Croats."

11             If you could please explain that to us.  What is meant by this,

12     and why the reference to Tudjman and Izetbegovic?

13        A.   The HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Croatian Democratic Party,

14     from the time it was founded up until the very present day was in favour

15     of an independent and integral Bosnia and Herzegovina as stated in this

16     charter, but the structure was to be different from the structure

17     envisaged by others.  The structure was to be such that the Croats in

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina would also be content.  Three constituent peoples

19     had the right to have equal rights in Bosnia-Herzegovina; and when

20     reference is made to the Tudjman-Izetbegovic agreement, the Agreement on

21     Friendship and Cooperation from July is what they have in mind, July

22     1992, when reference was made to the constituent units in the area of

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

24        Q.   All right.  Let's go on to the next document, which is -- it's

25     1D --

Page 34326

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  I have a follow-up question.

 2             Here, again, I have the same concern I expressed a minute ago

 3     with regard to the Croats from Serbia.  In this document, which is an

 4     important one because it's been signed by Mr. Boban - he signed it in

 5     November 1992 - in this document, in paragraph 3, reference is made to

 6     the three constituent peoples, the Serbs, the Croats and the Muslims, but

 7     no reference is ever made to Milosevic.  Reference is made to Tudjman and

 8     Izetbegovic, and it seems that one is leaving aside the Serbian issue,

 9     whereas the Serbian issue was at the heart of the problems in Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, and this is what we came to see later on in the form of

11     Republika Srpska.  You exercised political power, so how would you

12     explain this?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when this political

14     charter was drafted, Bosnia and Herzegovina was an independent and

15     internationally-recognised state, and this charter explicitly refers to

16     the agreement signed by President Izetbegovic, as president of the

17     Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, together with the president of the

18     Republic of Croatia, Mr. Tudjman.  They're referred to because these two

19     presidents agreed on certain positions that had to do with the internal

20     structure of Bosnia and Herzegovina; and given that at the same time a

21     similar agreement had not been signed with the president of Serbia,

22     Mr. Milosevic, it was not possible to make reference to this issue in the

23     charter.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  A couple of follow-up questions.

25        Q.   At that point in time in history, was the entire BiH a free

Page 34327

 1     territory?

 2        A.   It depends on your perspective.  In our opinion, it wasn't.  For

 3     the Croats and Muslims, the entire of Bosnia-Herzegovina was not free.

 4        Q.   All right.  What had the Serbs or the SDA -- the SDS, what had

 5     they done prior to the -- to Bosnia-Herzegovina being declared

 6     independent, prior to the referendum?

 7        A.   I know that prior to the referendum on an independent

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 28th and 29th of February, 1992, some kind of

 9     economic communities had been established or, rather, they'd already -

10     roughly speaking - defined the area to be covered by Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   All right.  Unless there are any other questions, I'll move on.

12             If we go on now to the next document, 1D 02700, now we're into 17

13     December 1993.  Again, this is a statute of the Democratic Union.  Do you

14     recognise this document, sir?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, I want to focus your attention to paragraph 10 -- to

17     Article 10, I should say.  That would be on page -- bottom of page 2, top

18     of page 3 in English.  And in particular, again, for continuity's sake,

19     to see how the HDZ is progressing, how their platform is moving, 10.1, it

20     talks about to ensure the rights of the Croatian people,

21     self-determination, statehood, independence, sovereignty.  So you see

22     that, sir, right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And it also talks about -- that Bosnia-Herzegovina consists of

25     three equal constitutive nations:  Croats, Muslims and Serbs.  You see

Page 34328

 1     that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And then if we go to 10.2, it talks about:

 4             "... to further the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna as a

 5     democratic parliamentary multiparty state that shall guarantee and ensure

 6     all constitutional rights and liberties to each of its constituent

 7     nations and to every citizen, irrespective of race, nationality,

 8     religion, political persuasion, gender, or social status."

 9             Now, I want to focus your attention to the word "state," because

10     if we look at paragraph 10.1, it talks about Bosnia-Herzegovina, and now

11     here we see that the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna talks about a

12     multiparty state.  Can you please help us out here?

13        A.   Yes.  This statute was adopted in December 1993, and it confirms

14     the continuity of the policies pursued by the HDZ in Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina.  Its policies were for Bosnia and Herzegovina as an

16     independent and integral state, but it was in favour of a Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina that had an internal structure that was also suited to the

18     Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  At that time, there was the Croatian

19     Republic of Herceg-Bosna, which in the opinion of the HDZ of Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina was to be an integral part of the state of Bosnia -- of the

21     states of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Unless there are other questions, I'm

23     going to move on for the sake of time, although I do point out, at least

24     for the record, 10.4, that's for Judge Trechsel, given the earlier

25     question regarding demographic discontent.  That may be of some interest.

Page 34329

 1     Otherwise, I'll move on.

 2             The next document is 1D 02580, and do you recognise this

 3     document, sir?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, I don't see at the end of the document a date or

 6     a signature, but do you know where this document came from?

 7        A.   This is a political declaration from the HDZ in Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.  Although I'm not sure, I believe that it was drafted just

 9     before this assembly, or perhaps it was adopted at the assembly on the

10     17th of December, 1993.

11        Q.   All right.  Now, we can see from the very first paragraph it

12     talks about the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and so that would at

13     least help us out here and -- as to what months and thereafter this

14     document would have been generated.  But let me focus your attention on

15     Roman numeral I, the third paragraph - that's on the first page for us in

16     the English - because it talks about the HDZ BiH is campaigning for a

17     democratically-organised Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna which

18     guarantees and ensures all rights and freedoms to each of its citizens,

19     regardless of race, nationality, sex, religious views, political

20     convictions, or social status.  It then goes on to talk about

21     preconditions of halting the exodus of Croats and ensuring the return of

22     expellees, refugees and displaced persons.

23             Now, sir, could you please help us out here.  At that point in

24     time, since you were a member of HDZ, what were the aspirations of HDZ,

25     and are they accurately reflected in this political declaration?

Page 34330

 1        A.   The aspirations of the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina were expressed

 2     very frankly in this political declaration.  In certain areas inhabited

 3     by Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croats felt more threatened than

 4     most of the Croats who lived in the territory of the Croatian Republic of

 5     Herceg-Bosna, and that's why it is explicitly stated here that the HDZ

 6     will take care of Croats throughout the territory of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   All right.  If we go on now to the next document, 1D 027 --

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If you allow, Mr. Karnavas, I would like to ask

10     a question in this context, but it's a bit more general, perhaps, in

11     nature.

12             Mr. Buntic [sic] --

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Batinic.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Batinic, I'm sorry, was the Croatian

15     Republic of Herceg-Bosna a multiethnic state?  What was the position of

16     Muslims in Herceg-Bosna?  Were they a constituent nation, or were they

17     rather a minority, if you know.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croatian Republic of

19     Herceg-Bosna did not have its border area.  We had an area where many

20     Croats lived, and we called it the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna.  In

21     that area, there were Muslims, as well, and the Muslims a constituent

22     people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Maybe we'll be hearing more about

24     this in the course of the evidence.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Mr. Karnavas, I also would like to ask a

Page 34331

 1     follow-up question here as regards to that statute.  Statute, yes.

 2             In Article 4 of the general provisions, and the second part of

 3     that Article 4, it is the following, and I quote:

 4             "HDZ BH shall be an integral part of the overall HDZ

 5     organisation, with seat located in Zagreb."

 6             Now, my question is how Mr. Batinic would interpret this

 7     particular sentence and this Article 4, since then the Croatian

 8     Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, HDZ BH, had its seat

 9     located in Sarajevo; and now here in Article 4, that is that reference

10     which I quoted, that that very organisation shall be an integral part of

11     the overall HDZ organisation, that is, that one which was created and

12     which was functioning in the Croatian Republic.  So I wonder what kind of

13     explanation is to be given by Mr. Batinic in terms of the independence of

14     the HDZ BH or if there was any kind of dependency, being dependent upon

15     the centre which was located in Zagreb.

16             MR. KARNAVAS:

17        Q.   Mr. Batinic, you need to look at the very first document that was

18     introduced.  That was 1D 02699, dated 18 August 1990.  We were now in

19     1993, but I believe the question goes to this particular document,

20     Article 4.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  With due respect, Mr. Karnavas, I think it

22     refers to the document 1D 02700.  At least, there in Article 4 we have

23     this reference to Zagreb.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:  I wasn't sure which document we were referring to.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Prandler should actually -- 2700?

Page 34332

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

 2             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Thank you.

 3             I refer to the same document which was before us, that is, the

 4     statute in Croatia which says Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica, and the

 5     statute, Mostar, 17. procinca, in 1993.  So it is what I am -- what I

 6     quoted, actually, in the Croatian language -- [Interpretation] Article 4.

 7     [In English] It is what I quoted, the second part of Article 4, so that

 8     one which I asked if there was any kind of, quote/unquote, "dependency";

 9     of the HDZ upon the centre and the leadership, quote/unquote, "in

10     Zagreb."

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the HDZ of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina operated autonomously in the territory of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina.  Globally viewed, the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina coordinated

14     its activities with the HDZ in Croatia.  At the beginning when it was

15     founded and for several years after that, we considered ourselves to be a

16     component of the planet-wide HDZ, as the HDZ had its branches in Europe,

17     America, Australia and so on.

18             To be more precise in interpreting this statute, I cannot be, as

19     in each of our statutes, including this one, it says that the authentic

20     interpretation of this statute can be given by the Presidency of the HDZ

21     for BiH, that is, the Presidency at the time, or the commission for

22     statutes authorised by the Presidency and the president.

23             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Well, frankly, I am not truly convinced by the

24     answer, but I leave it as it is, and I believe that there are certain

25     question marks still left as far as the relationship between the - if I

Page 34333

 1     may say so - the mother organisation, which had its headquarters in

 2     Zagreb, and the other organisation, which had been created in

 3     Herzegovina.  But I leave it as it is now, and it is up to the -- further

 4     study, probably, by anyone who is interested.

 5             Thank you.

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, there should be a clarification.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Wait a moment, please.  As we

 8     are addressing a very important issue, there are several questions from

 9     the Judges.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, excuse me.  I would

11     like to know the origin of this important political declaration that

12     we're examining, 1D 02580.  Which organ of the HDZ drafted this important

13     political declaration?  I see at the bottom of the page of the last page

14     in English, it says "central board."  And when I look at the statute of

15     the HDZ, Article 28 in document 1D 02500 [as interpreted], among the

16     bodies I do not come across the central board.  So which is the authority

17     which drafted and promulgated this political declaration, which is of

18     great importance?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in Article 28 of the

20     statute, dated the 17th of December, 1993, it is clearly stated that the

21     following bodies of the HDZ and BH, the Assembly, the Presidency, the

22     main Board, the Central Board, the Executive Board, the Commission for

23     Statutes, the Coat of Armour and the Auditing Board.  If this mentioned

24     declaration in document 580, the Central Board is mentioned, then this is

25     a body of the HDZ which actually drafted and promulgated this political

Page 34334

 1     declaration.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honours, I'm told that in Article 28,

 3     number 4, it should -- it's been translated "central committee," but it

 4     should read "Central Board."  In the original language, it's "Central

 5     Board," so that may be of assistance.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Oh, I see.  It's a problem of

 7     translation, then.  Thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, I would like to come

 9     back to the previous question by the Judge [as interpreted] that the HDZ

10     should become an integral part of the HDZ in Zagreb, and you answered

11     something.  Your answer opened up a path of reflection.  You said that

12     the HDZ was planet-wide, saying that there was HDZ organisations

13     everywhere, Australia, et cetera.  So if the HDZ is a planetary

14     organisation like, for instance, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union,

15     then there was the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, of Hungary, the

16     Communist Party of France, et cetera, et cetera, in its planetary

17     dimension did the HDZ envisage that the seat of the HDZ should

18     automatically be in Zagreb and the satellites could be in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina and elsewhere?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say that we

21     were a satellite in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I don't think that we were a

22     satellite of the HDZ of the Republic of Croatia.

23             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, something is

24     wrong with the sound.  There's a mix-up.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  I'll handle it.  Apparently --

Page 34335

 1             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  We are hearing some very

 2     nasty comments from the translation booth, like, "Tudjman's vassals,

 3     Zdravko Batinic, satellite."  So, please, this is what I heard, and all

 4     the others who can confirm this, from the translation booth, which

 5     indicates the personal political views of the interpreters, as Tudjman's

 6     vassals, Batinic was a satellite, and some other things along those

 7     lines.  This is impermissible.  If necessary, ask the others who are here

 8     present who could hear this when the microphone was turned on.  So the

 9     interpreters are joining in with political views and assessments, and at

10     this point in time I require an investigation, and I want the

11     interpreters to be checked out.

12             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was

13     listening to the B/C/S booth, and I must say that what General Praljak

14     has said is true.  Obviously, the interpreters were having a private

15     conversation in which they were making comments which certainly are

16     inappropriate.  The terms mentioned by Mr. Praljak were used and some

17     others, and there was also some cynical comments regarding the witness

18     that we have in the courtroom.  And I believe the witness must have heard

19     this, who is listening to the B/C/S, and all of us who are switched on to

20     the sixth channel could hear this.  So I'm just confirming the

21     truthfulness of this.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Karnavas.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yes, thank you.  And I was going to react before

24     General Praljak did to confirm exactly what General Praljak indicated and

25     my other colleague has indicated because of Ms. Tomanovic [sic].

Page 34336

 1             At this point time in light of what is happening, I think we

 2     should take a break because I think that it's disrespectful and it's

 3     really abhorrent that at least now the Croats that are being tried in

 4     this Tribunal seem to be singled out by at least some of the

 5     interpreters.  It may be -- it may be that something needs to be done,

 6     such as only those of a particular nation should be interpreting in this

 7     particular trial.  Now, I think that would be devastating to this

 8     institution, but if, in fact, there are those within the booth that think

 9     that this is a laughing matter and where the gentleman himself can hear

10     these comments, then I dare say this is a sad day for international

11     criminal justice.  And I just think that the best thing is take a break,

12     perhaps look into the matter.  We can take an early break.  But I do

13     think that this is unacceptable, and I believe the clients need to have a

14     time-out for themselves to compose themselves.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

16             We are grateful for this information.  Maybe it's a bit of a

17     consolation to the parties, in particular to the Defence, that the Judges

18     have remained immune of all and any such comments because we do not

19     listen to that language.  So it has remained outside.  This

20     notwithstanding, I am quite shocked, I must say, of this, and I'm sure

21     that the Chamber will deal with it.

22             I would, as I have the floor, make an observation to the

23     transcript.  And on page 67 -- no -- yes, 67, line 21.  Judge Antonetti

24     has referred to Judge Prandler.  I have heard this.  And it just says

25     "Judge" here.  And as Mr. Mindua had spoken previously, I think it would

Page 34337

 1     be better to put this clear so that we know.

 2             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, we are at your hands, but I do

 3     think that, again, it is very difficult to get witnesses here, precisely

 4     because the way some of them perceive this Tribunal to be acting.  I'm

 5     not saying that those perceptions are accurate, but I do think that it's

 6     very difficult at times to get witnesses here, to put ten days of their

 7     life away, to be prepared, read documents, come here, answer questions

 8     under very difficult circumstances.  And if the gentleman did indeed hear

 9     what apparently others heard in his own language, obviously at this point

10     in time he must be wondering how or why he is here.  You know, why is he

11     bothering to come here to give evidence if those who are within this

12     institution are mocking him, are mocking his heritage, are mocking his

13     testimony?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, what did you hear in

15     your own language?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard somebody laughing, saying

17     that Zdravko -- in these words, "Zdravko Batinic, a satellite," and some

18     other words.  I thought somebody in the courtroom was saying this.

19     Fortunately, they were not.  But what Mr. Karnavas said, and Mr. Praljak

20     before him, is truly unacceptable.

21             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one

22     sentence.  When he said, "to all intents and purposes," it's not so.  I

23     heard it, and I heard exactly what I said, laughter, with the words

24     "Tudjman's vassals, Batinic is a satellite -- Tudjman satellite,"

25     laughter, "ironic," and "out of order."

Page 34338

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  We're going to

 2     have a 20-minute break.

 3             Somebody wishes to intervene?

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, I would.

 5             I would like to comment on Mr. Karnavas' expressions that

 6     witnesses that come here put ten days of their lives away.  I think it's

 7     not a proper expression.  They come here, they perform a duty, and I

 8     don't think one should intimate that to them entirely lost time.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, it's not lost.  I don't mean to say that it

10     is lost, but they're away from their families.  They're away from their

11     work.  They're not getting compensated to be here.  Trust me,

12     Judge Trechsel, when I say that at least the witnesses that we bring over

13     have to read a lot of documents, which is not very pleasant, and being

14     questioned, even by myself on direct examination, can be intimidating,

15     let alone being cross-examined.  So that's what I meant.  It is a public

16     service.  I agree.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes.  You can be assured of that, but then life

18     is not only pleasure, and even toils are a part of life and can, all in

19     all, have something rewarding, I think.  So --

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.  But at least when they do come here,

21     they should be treated properly.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But potential witnesses should not be told that

23     "If you come to The Hague to testify, you're putting so-and-so many days

24     of your life away."  I think it's not encouraging, and we have to

25     encourage them.

Page 34339

 1             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, we do have to warn them they're going to be

 2     here for a while.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Scott.

 4             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Just a moment or two.

 5             I am also, as Judge Trechsel said, for better or worse, not in a

 6     position to directly comment on what was or was not being said in the

 7     translation booths or what was interpreted or not.  I do note that the

 8     best record we have at the moment is what the witness himself, when asked

 9     by the Judge, "What did you hear," it wasn't very much.  I mean, if that

10     was the answer of the witness, he didn't indicate very much of any

11     particular significance, other than the use of the word "satellite."  I

12     don't know -- again, I say I'm not in a position to comment, but I will

13     observe for the record that when the witness was asked, it didn't seem

14     particularly -- it did not seem particularly problematic.

15             Be that as it may, whatever was said or not said, I think it's a

16     gross overstatement and generalisation to then say that the Tribunal as a

17     whole displays an anti-Croat bias.  I think that's completely

18     objectionable.  It should not be heard in this courtroom.

19             Mr. Praljak, when I'm finished, you can perhaps have the floor,

20     if the Chamber wishes to give it to you.

21             It is completely improper to say that.

22             As far as the hardship on witnesses, Your Honour, I'm sure the

23     Chamber will understand that every witness who comes here, including the

24     many of the Bosniaks that came during the Prosecution case, come at

25     considerable inconvenience and difficulty, as do the internationals, for

Page 34340

 1     that matter.  So it would be improper to leave the impression -- two

 2     impressions on the record:  Number 1, it's a gross overstatement and

 3     I think irresponsible to suggest the Tribunal is an anti-Croat tribunal,

 4     number 1; number 2, what Mr. Karnavas said about witnesses can be said

 5     about witnesses in general.  Indeed, it may not be the most pleasant

 6     experience for everyone, but that applies across the board to all

 7     witnesses of every stripe, ethnic group, and political persuasion,

 8     Your Honour.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Coric.

11             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I'm convinced

12     that this discussion is being recorded, and it would be a good idea for

13     us to get a recording of this conversation.  The Prosecutor is not

14     telling the truth.  There was even more said than what Mr. --

15     General Praljak said and Mr. Batinic and others in the courtroom here.

16             A second point I wish to make here.  Some witnesses who need to

17     come here know years in advance that they are due to come.  Be they

18     victims or not, participants in that war, they have lost their -- their

19     health has worsened, and my Defence has already noted that several

20     witnesses will not be able to come because they're living with this

21     trial; they're living with affected health.  And when a witness is

22     insulted in this way, it is unacceptable.  This is an honourable act.

23     Regardless of why those witnesses are coming here, they are witnesses of

24     justice.  They're not all professionals.  They're not all intellectuals.

25     They're ordinary people - I'm talking partly on behalf of my witnesses

Page 34341

 1     who will be coming here - who do not have great careers behind them, and

 2     one does not pay attention to the fact that for years they have been

 3     reflecting about these proceedings, and the rewards they get are shameful

 4     compared to some other rewards that are received by people here.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, Mr. Praljak, just for a

 6     few seconds, and then we will have a break because this could go on

 7     forever.

 8             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  I did not say that what I

 9     heard meant that the Tribunal or the Prosecution is anti-Croat.  That is

10     something I didn't say.  The Prosecutor must have heard this alone.  He

11     often begins by saying, "I don't know, but ..."  I think when someone

12     says, "I don't know," one should keep quiet.  If you didn't hear it or

13     understand it, then, respected Mr. Prosecutor, keep quiet because things

14     you don't know you should keep quiet about.

15             Secondly, I clearly quoted not just the words but something that

16     cannot be noticed from the recording, which makes a distinction between

17     the written word and the spoken word.  I will be referring to this later

18     on when talking about transcripts.

19             I conveyed truthfully and precisely what I heard.  There were

20     things I didn't quite understand, so I left them out.  It is my opinion

21     that the translation service is not suitable for interpretation.  By

22     their attitude towards Tudjman's vassals and Tudjman himself, this can

23     lead to a whole series of misinterpretations.  These may not be obvious

24     but may emanate from their way of thought.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Praljak, you have already

Page 34342

 1     said this and repeated it.  You have intervened three times.  Everyone

 2     has understood the issue.

 3             We're now going to have a 20-minute break, and we will resume in

 4     20 minutes' time.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  So, first of all,

 8     a correction should be made.  I'd like to provide you with some

 9     information with regard to what was said a while ago.

10             The head of the interpretation department has replaced the

11     interpreter and will be looking into the matter, will be conducting an

12     investigation.  That's all I can say at this point in time.

13             My colleague has a correction he would like to make.

14             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I would just like to point out

15     something for the sake of the transcript.  On page 67, line 3, with

16     regard to the BH statute, I spoke about document 1D 02700 and not 2500,

17     so that's a correction I would like to make to the transcript.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

19             Mr. Karnavas.

20             MR. STEWART:  Your Honours, sorry.  I was on my feet just a

21     moment ago.  Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Yes, please go ahead.

23             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, I'm happy to say that what Your Honour

24     has said has very helpfully rather preempted and implemented what I on

25     behalf of all Defences on this particular point, because we've discussed

Page 34343

 1     it over the break, was going to propose, that there should be some sort

 2     of inquiry or investigation into this matter.

 3             May we just add this, Your Honour, that discussions over the

 4     break -- and I'm not going to get at all into what's said.  I certainly

 5     didn't hear a single word myself, nor would I have understood it.  But

 6     without going into that at all, there is certainly reason to think that

 7     perhaps something slightly worse was said even than has been ventilated,

 8     but we don't know that for sure at the moment, Your Honour.

 9             But, Your Honour, we do suggest specifically, as part of this

10     inquiry, that counsel and the accused, so far as they do have some input

11     on this and do hear something, but the accused, through their counsel,

12     that we, the Defences, should all be invited to submit to whoever is

13     conducting this inquiry what we believe was said.  That does seem to be a

14     proper part of a proper inquiry into this particular matter.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  The

16     audio-recording is available to everyone, so the audio-recording should

17     be consulted.

18             Mr. Karnavas.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Batinic, I want to take you back to a remark that was made by

21     Judge Prandler on page 66, line 15, in discussing the statute, which was

22     1D 02700, and upon your answer Judge Prandler indicated: "... The other

23     organisation which had been created in Herzegovina."

24             And from that I took to mean, since we're talking about the HDZ,

25     that at least in the mind of -- unless this was a slip of tongue, that at

Page 34344

 1     least in the mind of some, the impression is that HDZ was a Herzegovinian

 2     creation.

 3             So let me ask you, was HDZ BH, was that an order created in

 4     Herzegovina?

 5        A.   No.  The HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina was established in Sarajevo,

 6     and it was for the entirety of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   Now, if I could take you on to the very last document, which is

 8     1D 02701 [Realtime transcript read in error, "02001"].  This is the last

 9     document dealing with the HDZ.  This is another statute.  This is Mostar,

10     10 July 1994.  Do you recognise this document?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  And I don't want to spend too much time on it, but

13     other than to make reference to the programatic declaration, as it said

14     in English.  That would be on page 21 in the English, 21, page 21 of this

15     document.  It's towards the end of your document, sir.  It's the

16     programme, essentially.  I'm going to be looking at page 22.  And at the

17     very -- and this would be under Roman numeral II, where it says:

18             "Basic goals and tasks of the Croatian Democratic Union of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as set out in the programatic principles of the goals

20     of the Croatian Democratic Union, accepted on the first general

21     convention."

22             And then it lists four items.  Number 1, it says:

23             "To ensure the right of the Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina

24     to self-determination and statehood, independence and sovereignty in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, a state union or constitutive nations."

Page 34345

 1             Can you please explain that to us?

 2        A.   This statute was adopted in 1994.  The policies of the HDZ in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina continued to be pursued, and this political

 4     declaration at the end of this statute refers to the desire we had,

 5     because usually declarations state one's desires and intentions, the

 6     desires and intentions of political parties.  We wanted a Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina as a union of peoples, and we wanted it to be suited to the

 8     Croatian people, as well, as we can see.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Unless there are any questions, I'll move

10     on to the next topic.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, perhaps a correction to the transcript,

12     because the document is indicated as 1D 02001.  I have spent most of the

13     time looking for it.  In fact, I think it is 1D 02701.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  That's absolutely correct, 1D 02701.  1D 02701.

15     And I was referring to page --

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  21.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  -- 21 and going on to 22.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  And it lays out the principles.  All right.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Witness, to follow up on what

21     was just said, have a look at Article 2, which is very clear.  It would

22     appear the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina will have its headquarters in

23     Sarajevo but when the state of war comes to an end.  This text says that

24     the headquarters of the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina will be located in

25     Sarajevo, not in Zagreb.

Page 34346

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   Is there an explanation?  I guess that's the reason why it's

 5     being pointed out.  I mean, we can all read that.  Is there an

 6     explanation, well, now on July 10, 1994, it says "Sarajevo, when

 7     liberated," versus earlier?  Do you have an explanation?  If not, we'll

 8     move on.

 9        A.   There's a very simple explanation for this.  Having signed the

10     Washington Agreement between the Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina, there was no longer a state of war that prevailed.  Peace

12     was established between our two peoples, but war continued against the

13     Serbian forces.  At the time, Sarajevo was still occupied, and it wasn't

14     possible to enter Sarajevo.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, let's go on to the next chapter, which deals

16     with the HDZ Crisis Staff, Gornji Vakuf.  That's how I've titled it, at

17     least, for convenience sake.  The first document --

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  My attention is attracted to this

19     Article 2, where I read of a confederation with the Republic of Croatia,

20     and it is a bit puzzling.  I wonder, Mr. Batinic, whether you could

21     comment on that.  To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a

22     confederation between Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the one hand, and the

23     Republic of Croatia, on the other hand, but it may be this is an error in

24     translation.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, there is no

Page 34347

 1     confederation of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the

 2     Republic of Croatia, but this had been planned in the

 3     Washington Agreement.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  Yes.  I wasn't prepared to go into the

 6     Washington Agreement, but we can, Your Honours, if --

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  We can leave it at that, Mr. Karnavas.  I'm

 8     sorry.  It probably was known, but I know not all I should.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  But It's -- I'm told that we could find it in

10     Exhibit 1D 01530, Your Honour, if that may be of assistance.  1D 01530,

11     which is in the exhibits already.

12        Q.   If we go on to the next chapter, which is 1D 00485, 1D 00485, and

13     we can see from this particular document -- first of all, do you

14     recognise the document, sir?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   All right.  And if we look at the end -- at the end of this

17     document, we see President Stjepan Kljuic.  I take it you knew the

18     gentleman, correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, let's look at the preamble.  It says:

21             "A session of the Security Council of the Croatian

22     Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina was held on 18 September 1991."

23             First of all, can you tell us what, if anything, happened -

24     noteworthy, that is - on that particular day in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 18

25     September 1991?

Page 34348

 1        A.   Yes.  On the 18th of December [as interpreted], 1991, the Serbian

 2     aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina commenced when the Serbians

 3     attacked the village of Ravno in Eastern Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 5        A.   Croatian village of Ravno.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Now, could you please explain to us, what is the Security

 7     Council of the Croatian Democratic Union?

 8        A.   The Security Council of the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina was a body

 9     that was supposed to take care of the safety of the Croatian people in

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina at a period of time when it seemed certain that

11     the Serbian forces would launch an active aggression against

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, I don't want to go into this in any

14     detail because I don't have the time, but if we could go to

15     paragraph number 4, or item number 4, I should say, we can see that

16     Stjepan Kljuic, it says:

17             "... shall contact the leadership of the SDA without delay and

18     ask them to state their policy, but the Crisis Staff shall develop an

19     action plan with or without SDA and take specific steps in this

20     direction."

21             So now we have the words "Crisis Staff," and we could see that

22     earlier.  What exactly to your knowledge was being asked of Kljuic to do,

23     and why?

24        A.   As the president of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25     Mr. Stjepan Kljuic at the time was told to establish contact with the

Page 34349

 1     political leadership of the SDA, the Party of Democratic Action, and

 2     having done so, to establish how the political leadership of the Muslims

 3     through the SDA Party saw how Bosnia-Herzegovina should be defended

 4     because they're prepared to participate.  Why they're prepared to

 5     participate?  Because the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina had

 6     commenced on that day when the Serbian forces attacked the Croatian

 7     village of Ravno.

 8        Q.   Now, let's go on to the next document, unless there are any

 9     questions.  I'll go on to the next document, which is 1D 00477.  1D

10     00477.  And this is for the benefit -- to see what SDA was doing.  This

11     is dated 13 June 1991, and it's by - it says here:  "The Council for

12     National Defence of SDA has formed on Monday, 11 June, in Sarajevo."  And

13     it's signed by Hasan Cengic.  Did you know Mr. Hasan Cengic?

14        A.   Not personally, but I know many things about him.

15        Q.   Well, who was he at the time?

16        A.   Hasan Cengic was a close associate of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic at

17     the time.  They both served prison sentences for being involved in the

18     Young Muslims Movement.  Later, he became the main logistics officer of

19     the ABiH and dealt with obtaining weapons and equipment and financial

20     means from Arab countries.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, obviously, this is several months before the

22     previous document, when HDZ forms its Crisis Staff, and I pointed out

23     number 4 where Kljujic is instructed to go talk to the leadership of the

24     SDA.  Let me ask you one simple question.

25             At the time, were you aware that the SDA had already formed this

Page 34350

 1     Council for National Defence?  Was it known?

 2        A.   We found out about it a little later, a little after this date.

 3        Q.   All right.  Can you -- do you recall, about when did you find

 4     out?

 5        A.   Midsummer 1991, approximately.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go on to the next chapter.  This has --

 7     just for convenience sake, it's titled "Kljuic and the Livno Question."

 8     If we go to document -- let's see.  I'm sorry.  I have to make sure that

 9     I don't make references to the documents that you handed over, but let me

10     first ask you a question.

11             Were you in Livno at all when the matter was discussed, that is,

12     the so-called Livno question?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And could you please tell us, why -- what is this all about?

15     What was the question about, and why there was a controversy over it?

16        A.   Please, just tell me what the document number is.

17        Q.   All right.  Well, the problem is -- I don't want to make

18     reference to your notes because I can't use your notes in this courtroom

19     because we can't use your diary.  It's either all or nothing, I'm afraid,

20     so you're going to have to go with your memory, although I will direct

21     you at some point -- I will direct you at some point to P00117.  That may

22     be of some assistance.  P00117.

23             All right.  Now, do you know why everyone convened on this

24     particular meeting?

25        A.   I do.

Page 34351

 1        Q.   Would you please tell us, and rather quickly, because I really --

 2     I have limited time.

 3        A.   Just a couple of sentences with regard to what took place a week

 4     earlier.

 5             On the 2nd of February, 1992, in Siroki Brijeg, a meeting of the

 6     Central HDZ Committee [Transcript read in error, "SDA Central Committee"]

 7     of Bosnia and Herzegovina was held, an expanded meeting of this body, and

 8     there was discussion about the referendum on independence of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina that had been voted on.  And the referendum did not satisfy

10     most of the members of the Central Committee of the HDZ in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and this expanded version.

12             The president of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina was criticised for

13     not having sufficiently coordinated work with the HDZ representatives in

14     the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15        Q.   Slow down a bit, Mr. Batinic.  This is very important because we

16     already have one area where it says "SDA Central Committee," and we know

17     we're talking about the HDZ.

18             So -- all right.  There was an issue with the coordination.  What

19     was the problem?  Get to the issue.

20        A.   The problem was a problem that concerned the referendum by the

21     Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, a referendum that people had voted

22     in.  Most of the members of the Central Committee of the HDZ of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina did not agree with it.  Mr. Kljujic was criticised for

24     not having sufficiently thought through the issue, in political terms.

25     He hadn't made enough effort and hadn't coordinated the representatives

Page 34352

 1     of the HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He hadn't coordinated his

 2     activities.  Such an issue shouldn't have been put forth at the Assembly.

 3     The representatives of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina shouldn't have

 4     supported such an issue in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Why?

 5     Because the referendum at the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 6     according to most of the members of the Central Committee, was

 7     prejudicial to the internal structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather,

 8     according to the members of the Central Committee of the HDZ in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the referendum concerned an issue inside Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina.  For all of these reasons, Mr. Kljujic felt that he no

11     longer had the support of most of the members of the Central Committee;

12     and as a result, he resigned.

13             When the committee continued to sit -- well, the committee met

14     seven days later in Livno, and at that meeting the question for the

15     referendum was formulated, and it was supposed to be put before the SDA,

16     and an attempt was to be made in the Assembly to change the issue, the

17     result.  Unfortunately, the representatives of the SDA were not in favour

18     of changing the issue.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, we know, from having heard from previous

20     witnesses, that at some point Kljujic was no longer the president of the

21     HDZ.  Could you please tell us, how did that come about?

22        A.   Mr. Kljujic resigned at the session of the Central Committee of

23     the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Siroki Brijeg on the 2nd of February,

24     1992.  He had understood that he no longer had the support of that body

25     when it came to leading the HDZ in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 34353

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Instead of "to

 2     change the issue," it should state "to change the question."

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   Now, just getting -- let's look at this one document, P00117.

 5     This is 9 February 1992.  And if we look on page 2 in the English

 6     version, we can see the proposed -- we see, under item 3:  "Referendum on

 7     sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina," and we see the

 8     following:

 9             "Are you in favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, a joint state of the constitutive and sovereign Croatian,

11     Muslim and Serbian peoples in their ethnic areas," and in brackets it

12     says "(cantons)?"

13             Was that the question as you recall it?

14        A.   I was at this session of the Central Board of the HDZ of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Livno, and in my diaries I made a note of the

16     question:  "Are you in favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, a joint state of the constituent and sovereign Croatian,

18     Muslim and Serbian peoples?"  I'm not claiming that this text before us

19     wasn't drafted as such, but what I heard is what I put down in my

20     personal diary.

21             MS. MOE:  The witness is referring to his diaries, and as Counsel

22     Karnavas said as we started after the recess, it's got to be either/or or

23     nothing.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:

25        Q.   Sir, let me lay a foundation.  Are you testifying on the basis of

Page 34354

 1     your memory?

 2        A.   I'm testifying about this on the basis of my memory and also on

 3     the basis of what is contained in my personal notes.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, Your Honour, it's kind of difficult to

 5     unring the bell.  I don't know whether he remembered that in advance and

 6     now he's looked at his notes, but in any event, he was entitled to

 7     refresh his memory even before coming here.  We're not using his notes,

 8     which were taken contemporaneous at the time, and I can ask him that

 9     question, but he's testifying from his memory.

10             Let me go on to the next question.

11        Q.   With respect to cantons, since we do have the word "cantons" in

12     this particular question, so whether it was inclusive or whether -- in

13     the original question or whether it was part of an explanation, what was

14     meant by "cantons"?

15        A.   No one was very clear about that or said anything about this.  At

16     the session, when the matter was discussed, cantons were discussed in

17     general terms or, rather, national areas, and no one mentioned any

18     figures when it came to cantons or any areas.  In this question, in this

19     referendum for Bosnia and Herzegovina, all I wanted to do was to see what

20     the internal structure should be if it was also to suit the Croatian

21     people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, you talked about there was a previous meeting on

23     2nd of February, 1992.  Were any foreign guests at that meeting that you

24     recall, that you recall?

25        A.   At the session of the Central Board of the HDZ of Bosnia and

Page 34355

 1     Herzegovina on the 2nd of February in Siroki Brijeg, our most

 2     distinguished guest was the president of the Executive Committee of the

 3     HDZ for the Republic of Croatia, Mr. Stjepan Mesic.

 4        Q.   Do you recall -- I want you to testify from your memory.  Do you

 5     recall what, if anything, he said at the meeting?  In other words, did he

 6     address the attendants, and if so, in what capacity, and what, if

 7     anything, he might have said that sticks out in your mind today.

 8        A.   Mr. Stjepan Mesic took the floor on a number of occasions.  The

 9     essence of what he had to say as the president of the Executive Board for

10     the HDZ for the Republic of Croatia was -- well, that he wanted to

11     express the official position of the HDZ in Croatia, and according to the

12     official position, the Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina should support

13     the referendum with regard to an independent and sovereign Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, since he was present and since the question or

16     the essence of the question was being discussed, did he take a position

17     one way or the other with respect to the question, or was he simply

18     urging people to just go and vote, irrespective of the nature of the

19     question?

20        A.   He expressed the official position of the HDZ of the Republic of

21     Croatia, given that he was acting in the capacity of president of the

22     Executive Board of the HDZ in the Republic of Croatia, and these were

23     acts that were carried out in the policies of the HDZ in Croatia.  So

24     there was no incitement here, as you put it.  This was just the official

25     position of the HDZ in the Republic of Croatia.

Page 34356

 1             With regard to the referendum, since you have touched on this

 2     issue, I have to emphasise the fact that all the members of the Central

 3     Committee board who were present or the Central Board who were present

 4     were in favour of a referendum of an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 5     but they wanted the question to be rephrased.  The question put at the

 6     referendum, according to them, should have been rephrased.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, if we look at the last document in this bundle,

 8     which is 1D 00410, 1D 00410.  This is from a text by Miroslav Tudjman.

 9     It's a compilation of various documents, and if I could draw your

10     attention.  For us in the English version, it would be at the very -- at

11     the right-hand top of the page, it says "141, Cutileiro plan proposed HDZ

12     BiH..."

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  This would be the fourth page, Your Honours, the

14     fourth page.

15        Q.   Do you have that document in front of you, sir?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And, of course, we can see that the source of this document -- in

18     the footnote, it says "HINA."  Do you know what this source is?

19        A.   The Croatian Information News Agency.

20        Q.   All right.  And it appears that Miro Lasic, the head of the HDZ

21     delegation, is made reference to, as well as Mate Boban.  And if we look

22     at this text, it says that the -- under paragraph 2, the:

23             "Basic HDZ demand in maintaining BiH within its historical

24     borders, which are today's borders, as well as an independent and

25     sovereign state of three constitutive and sovereign nations and citizens

Page 34357

 1     who live in that territory.  According to the HDZ proposal, Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina would be, as multinational unity, the state with divided

 3     sovereignty; one would belong to the cantonal authorities, and the other

 4     to the central confederative authority.  Every authority would be

 5     sovereign in its own domain."

 6             I want to skip the rest of the part.  There are some interested

 7     passages in the next paragraph, but due out of time, I won't cover that.

 8     But if we go to the third-from-the-last paragraph, the paragraph third

 9     from the bottom, it talks about a model for the government status, which

10     HDZ deligacy proposed in Lisbon, is well known and implemented in a

11     sovereign world in different variants:  United States of America,

12     Switzerland, Belgium, and others.

13             Can you please tell us, having looked at this document, whether

14     what is reflected in here as far as the future governmental status of BiH

15     is consistent with or inconsistent with HDZ's policy as you understood it

16     to be when the negotiations were taking place concerning the Livno

17     question?

18        A.   This is absolutely in line with the programme declaration of the

19     HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina and in line with the proposal for the

20     referendum proposed by members of the Central Board of the HDZ for

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   And, finally, before we leave this Livno question, the referendum

23     question:  At that meeting on the 2nd or, later on, on the 9th of

24     February, were there any maps, any documents, draft constitutions,

25     charters, statutes, anything that would assist the participants in

Page 34358

 1     figuring out what it was that the Croats were asking?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next chapter --

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay, if we could just take a little detour.

 6             Your Honours, I have 1D 01530, which is the Law on the

 7     Ratification of the Preliminary Agreement of the Establishment of the

 8     Confederation between the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

 9     Republic of Croatia, and I have it here in hard copy for the Judges to

10     look at.

11             Unless there are any questions regarding the confederation issue

12     that was discussed earlier, I'll go on to the next chapter, "Arming the

13     Muslims."  That's what the title is.  It doesn't necessarily mean

14     anything special, but 1D 02445.  1D 02445.  This is 8 April 1992, we can

15     see, and this is from Srebrenik municipality.

16        Q.   Do you know where Srebrenik is?

17        A.   The Municipality of Srebrenik is in the northeast of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   And can you please tell us what the makeup of this municipality

20     is, based on the nationality quota?

21        A.   According to the population census of 1991 for Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, more than 40.000 inhabitants were in Srebrenik, more than

23     30.000 of which stated that they were Muslims.

24        Q.   All right.  And over here -- now, during that period of time, do

25     you have any firsthand knowledge whether the Republic of Croatia was

Page 34359

 1     providing military assistance to municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 2     particularly municipalities that were predominantly made up of the Muslim

 3     nation?

 4        A.   I do not have firsthand knowledge of this, but it was common

 5     knowledge that the Republic of Croatia was assisting the Muslims of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina with weapons and equipment in order to defend

 7     themselves from the Serb aggressor.

 8        Q.   Let's look at the next document, which is 1D 02443.  This deals

 9     with Konjic.  And if we look at the end of the document, we will all

10     recognise the gentleman's name, Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.  I think I

11     got it right.  This is dated 12 April 1992, and correct me if I'm wrong.

12     I don't want to lead you too much, but is Konjic next to Jablanica?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And do you happen to know what the -- based on the census, more

15     or less what the makeup of Konjic municipality was?

16        A.   Konjic municipality had a majority Muslim population.

17        Q.   And did you know this gentleman that is mentioned as the

18     president of the Crisis Staff?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   All right.  We'll go on to the next series of documents, and this

21     deals more in line with Gornji Vakuf, so that's why I titled it just

22     that.  And as I understand, it's a very -- we'll start off with 1D 03104.

23     This is dated 7 April 1992.  We see it's a conclusion, and we see at the

24     bottom that it's by the president of the Crisis Staff, Muhamed Palalic.

25     Did you know Mr. Palalic?

Page 34360

 1        A.   Yes, I knew him very well.

 2        Q.   And up until what time, period of time, was Mr. Palalic the

 3     president of the crisis staff?

 4        A.   Mr. Palalic was president of the Crisis Staff and president of

 5     the Presidency of Gornji Vakuf municipality until the 16th of November,

 6     1992.

 7        Q.   All right.  And prior to becoming the president of the

 8     Crisis Staff, what position did Mr. Palalic hold?

 9        A.   Mr. Palalic was president of the Assembly of Gornji Vakuf

10     Municipality.

11        Q.   All right.  Do you recall whether you were present during this

12     particular meeting, 7 April 1992, when these conclusions were drawn?

13        A.   I remember perfectly well.  I was present at this meeting of the

14     Crisis Staff because the meeting was being held in the evening of the 7th

15     of April, 1992, and during that same day the Crisis Staff for

16     Gornji Vakuf municipality was formed pursuant to a decision of the

17     Assembly, and Mr. Palalic was appointed president and Zdravko Batinic

18     deputy president, in other words, myself.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, just very quickly, on the first item, it talks about:

20             "Group of operatives consisting of three representatives of the

21     Crisis Staff of the Croatian Democratic Union, Gornji Vakuf Municipality,

22     HDZ Committee, and three representatives of the Crisis Staff of the BiH

23     Patriotic League of the Gornji Vakuf municipality ..."

24             Do you see that part?

25             "... give a proposal for the compositions of names for the

Page 34361

 1     operative staff..."

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   " ... the operative staff of Territorial Defence."

 4             Could you please explain to us, what was the operative staff of

 5     Territorial Defence of the Gornji Vakuf was about?  What was its

 6     functions, or what was its functions supposed to be?

 7        A.   Three representatives of the Crisis Staff of the HDZ for

 8     Gornji Vakuf municipality and three representatives of the

 9     Patriotic League were meant to set up an operative staff for Gornji Vakuf

10     municipality, which would work on the mobilisation and defence of

11     Gornji Vakuf municipality against Serb aggression.

12        Q.   All right.  Unless there are any questions from the Bench --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Mic, please.

14             MR. KARNAVAS:  Unless there are any questions from the Bench, I

15     will go on to the next document, which is 1D 03105.  This is dated now 15

16     May 1992, and this is a conclusion.  And we see at the -- this

17     conclusion, it says; it's from the Crisis Staff:

18             "A joint command or a military coordinating body between the HVO

19     Command and the Municipal/Territorial Defence."

20             Did that ever occur; was this conclusion ever materialised; and

21     if so, to what extent ?

22        A.   Yes.  It came about in the form of a military coordinating body.

23     The Command of the HVO -- of the armed forces of the HVO for Gornji Vakuf

24     municipality and the Command of the armed forces of the TO coordinated

25     their activities along the defence lines for the Municipality of

Page 34362

 1     Gornji Vakuf.

 2        Q.   All right.  If we go on to the next document, 1D -- well, let me

 3     ask you this before we go to the next document because this may be of

 4     importance:  How long did that cooperation last?  Up to what point?

 5        A.   Until the 11th of January, 1993.

 6        Q.   All right.  Of course, you did indicate that prior to January

 7     11th, 1993, there were the two incidents, the one in June and then the

 8     one in October, and so I guess it begs the question:  If the cooperation

 9     was ongoing, why did those two incidents occur?

10        A.   It is hard to explain this.  I said a few sentences linked to the

11     20th of June, 1992, and the 24th of October, 1992, but after these few

12     days, these forces resumed coordination along the defence lines on the

13     mountain of Radus against the Serb forces.

14        Q.   At that point in time, who was the head of the HVO and who was

15     the head of the Territorial Defence?

16        A.   In the -- from the 15th of May, the commander of the HVO for

17     Gornji Vakuf municipality was Mr. Pero Medandzic [phoen], and the

18     commander of the armed forces of the TO was Mr. Fikret Musa.

19        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go on to the next document, which is 1D

20     03106, we see this is an order, again, by the president of the

21     Crisis Staff, and it says here:

22             "For employees of all enterprises, organs and public institutions

23     who have been in some way engaged in the defence of Gornji Vakuf,

24     certificates of their engagement shall be issued by the

25     Municipal/Territorial Defence Staff, the police station and HVO for the

Page 34363

 1     purposes of regulating their employment rights."

 2             Very quickly, could you please tell us, what exactly is this

 3     order about?  Why were certificates needed to be issued by the

 4     Territorial Defence, the police station and/or HVO?

 5        A.   The war was ongoing.  Many members of the HVO and of the TO and

 6     the expanded composition of the Public Security Station were engaged in

 7     these units, and they had to abandon their work posts; and so that none

 8     of the executives of enterprises or public institutions could fire

 9     someone because they were not coming to work, it was sufficient for the

10     mobilised member of one of these formations to bring a certificate from

11     that formation, saying that he was engaged militarily, and this would

12     mean that he would have all rights from employment as well as some sort

13     of compensation or salary.  In other words, this document recognises that

14     the armed forces of the municipality such were the HVO, the TO and the

15     Public Security Station.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just a slight detour.

17             On November 1, 2006, we did have Mr. Fahrudin Agic testify here,

18     and he indicated that he had been the chief of Staff for the Territorial

19     Defence up until the end of March of 1992, and then he was relieved of

20     his duties by a Municipal Assembly decision.  And then he indicates that

21     the president of the Executive Committee, Mr. Miro Batinic, had the

22     authority to take a decision to allow him to continue performing his

23     duties for a certain period of time, which is why he continued to be the

24     chief of Staff.  And this can be found on the transcript page of 9340 to

25     9341.  These were in responses to questions posed by Ms. Alaburic.

Page 34364

 1             Now, first of all, is there a Miro Batinic?  And if so, who is

 2     he?

 3        A.   There are several Miro Batinics in Gornji Vakuf, but none of them

 4     were president of the Executive Council of the Municipal Assembly of

 5     Gornji Vakuf.

 6        Q.   But you were the Batinic that was back in the end of March,

 7     beginning of April, correct, 1992?

 8        A.   I believe that Mr. Agic had me in mind.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, just a point of clarification.  Did you have the

10     authority to take a decision to allow him to continue performing his

11     duties as chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence after -- after a

12     decision having been passed by the Municipal Assembly?

13        A.   No, I did not.

14        Q.   Now, at some point, although you will confirm that he was the

15     chief of Staff of the Territorial Defence up until the end of March 1992?

16        A.   Mr. Agic was the commander of the Territorial Defence Staff for

17     Gornji Vakuf until the 11th of April, 1992, when, by decision of the

18     Crisis Staff for Gornji Vakuf municipality, he was replaced, and

19     Mr. Mladen Kovacevic was appointed to that position.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, he indicated again when he testified on

21     page 9226 that Mr. Mladen Kovacevic only remained in that position until

22     about mid-May, between 15th and 20th of May, 1992, and that he went on to

23     join the HVO, he thinks, sometime around October 1992.

24             Let me put it to you very simply.  To your recollection, how long

25     did Mladen Kovacevic remain in that position, and is Mr. Fahrudin Agic

Page 34365

 1     correct in his testimony under oath?

 2        A.   Mr. Mladen Kovacevic did not leave the official position of

 3     commander of the TO Staff in the period Mr. Agic is referring to.  He

 4     retained that position as a member of the Presidency of Gornji Vakuf

 5     municipality until the 11th of January, 1993.

 6        Q.   All right.  But again, because there may be some confusion, when

 7     I asked you earlier who was commanding the Territorial Defence and who

 8     was commanding the HVO, I believe you said a Mr. -- the name escapes me

 9     right now.  Fikret Musa, was it, or -- did I get it right?

10        A.   Yes, you're right.  Fikret Musa.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, if I got it right, who is the head of the TO?

12     Is it Kovacevic, or is it this fellow Musa?

13        A.   De jure, as a member of the Executive Council of the Municipal

14     Assembly of the 11th of April, 1992, it was Mladen Kovacevic; but

15     de facto, the commander of the armed forces of the TO was Mr. Fikret

16     Musa.

17        Q.   And to your recollection, was Mr. Kovacevic attending meetings of

18     the Crisis Staff of the Presidency when they were being held during the

19     period of from the time of his appointment all the way to the time when

20     the Presidency stopped meeting or in January 1993?

21        A.   Mr. Mladen Kovacevic took part regularly at all meetings of the

22     Executive Council of the Municipal Assembly of Gornji Vakuf, for which he

23     was a member, and he regularly attended meetings of the Presidency of the

24     Gornji Vakuf municipality, of which he was also a member.

25        Q.   And did he ever become a member of the HVO?  And if he did, do

Page 34366

 1     you know -- do you know about what time that would have been?

 2        A.   Yes.  Mr. Mladen Kovacevic did become a member of the armed

 3     forces of the HVO in January, roughly about the same time as I did.

 4        Q.   And we've got to go with years.  Sometimes it helps.

 5        A.   January 1993.

 6        Q.   All right, because I warned you during the prep session that I'm

 7     going to be pressing you for precision when it comes to time.

 8             So 1D 01683.  1D 01683.  Here -- the next couple of documents are

 9     rather similar.  We see this is dated 17 June 1992.  This is a permit.

10     We see that the stamp, "Joint Staff of the Gornji Vakuf SO," and we see

11     this is issued to a conscript - we see the gentleman's name - who would

12     be heading to Split by motor vehicle.  And my question now is:  What is

13     this permit about, and why was it necessary for a conscript to have a

14     permit to go to Croatia?

15        A.   The Crisis Staff of Gornji Vakuf Municipality passed a decision

16     on prohibition of military conscripts leaving the municipality, and a

17     conscript could leave the municipality only if he was given a permit by

18     the HVO, the TO, and those who were not military conscripts of the

19     Crisis Staff of Gornji Vakuf.  That is why this permit was necessary for

20     this conscript.

21        Q.   All right.  And again, refresh our recollection a little bit,

22     because we can see it says:  "Joint Staff of the Municipal Territorial

23     Defence."  What are we talking about when it says here "Joint Staff of

24     the Municipal Territorial Defence"?

25        A.   It refers to the fact that, as I said a moment ago, de jure, the

Page 34367

 1     commander of the Staff of the TO was Mladen Kovacevic, a Croat, whereas

 2     de facto the commander of the armed forces of the TO was Fikret Musa, who

 3     commanded the youth of the armed forces of the TO.

 4        Q.   All right.  And we have enough time just for two more documents,

 5     because they will ask --

 6             MR. KARNAVAS:  There will be just one question, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   If you just look at 1D 01685, which is the next document, and 1D

 8     01684.  Both of these documents, which are permits, are basically very

 9     much the same as the one that we just saw; and I take it if I were to ask

10     you questions, you would give me the same answers with these particular

11     documents, as well, correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  I know it isn't easy, but I'm trying to save some

14     time, and I do appreciate not getting an objection so we can squeeze

15     those two documents in.

16             That's it for the night, Mr. President, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Very well.  Mr. Karnavas, you

18     have used two hours and thirty-five minutes, which means you have another

19     hour twenty-five minutes left and some twenty or so documents to show.

20             Sir, we will be meeting tomorrow in the morning, which means that

21     we all come back here tomorrow morning at 9.00.  I wish you all a good

22     night.

23             The hearing is adjourned.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

Page 34368

 1                           November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.