Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38267

 1                           Thursday, 19 March, 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Prlic not present]

 5                           [The accused Pusic not present]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 9     the case, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

11     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

12     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  Today is

14     Thursday the 19th of March, 2009.  I would like to welcome the witness,

15     the accused, the attorneys, all the members of the OTP, as well as the

16     Registrar and the usher.

17             We shall resume Mr. Stringer's cross-examination this morning.

18     Mr. Stringer, you have the floor.

19                           WITNESS:  IVAN BANDIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, and good morning Mr. President, Your

22     Honours, I see that the witness has something he wishes to say to the

23     Trial Chamber.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone in the

Page 38268

 1     courtroom.  Good morning to Your Honours.  Thank you for giving me the

 2     possibility of addressing you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, the interpreters

 4     haven't put -- switched their microphone on.  Please repeat what you've

 5     just said.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again good morning to everyone

 7     in the courtroom.  Good morning to Your Honours.  And thank you for

 8     giving me the opportunity of addressing you.  And this is what I would

 9     like to say:  After yesterday's time spent here in the courtroom, I

10     simply have the obligation towards myself and towards every one of you to

11     tell you of a very difficult situation that I find myself in after

12     yesterday's beginning of the cross-examination by the Prosecutor.

13             The case that was mentioned, profoundly moved me, and I

14     introduced disquiet, although my conscious is quite clear of course, but

15     it was food for thought.  And regardless of who compiled the document,

16     and I don't bring into question at all that the event took place, that

17     the thing happened, but as a man who is always conscious of one's -- his

18     dignity, one's dignity, that if there are any traces in the case of that

19     unfortunate man who ended fatally, if there is any trace leading back to

20     any connection of mine, then I should like to ask the Prosecutor and all

21     the Defence teams and anybody who has any document, and I do believe and

22     hope that some investigation was conducted, some proceedings were taken,

23     I would like to fully be able to clarify my possible role in that because

24     I continue to maintain that I never ever knew anything about any of that.

25             And the second thing that I'd like to say, now whether that

Page 38269

 1     unfortunate man had a family or relatives and if he did, and I do believe

 2     he did, then I would like to contact those people and to remove any

 3     doubt.  Perhaps those people have certain information saying that I was

 4     in any -- in a certain way involved in the case.  So I would like to

 5     elicit all your assistance because this is something that is terrible.

 6     It is terrible what happened to him.  I can't have him come back, but I

 7     want to rest assured and I can tell you that I didn't sleep the whole

 8     night.  So thank you, Your Honours, for allowing me to make that

 9     statement.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday, we saw a document

11     and in this document someone's death is stated in circumstances which no

12     one knows anything about, but whatever the case may be this person died.

13     In this document Bandic is mentioned.  Is it you, is it someone else, we

14     don't know.  The Prosecutor asked you whether you were familiar with this

15     document and you said no, and he asked you whether you knew anything

16     about this event and you said no, that's how things stand.  We can't say

17     any more than that.  So what you have said has been recorded, let's wait

18     and see.

19             Mr. Coric.

20             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, might I be

21     allowed to say just two sentences, to say something about the document

22     that was presents the to Mr. Bandic yesterday.  If I have your permission

23     to do so.  Thank you.

24             So I'm not going to make a statement, my Defence team has been

25     dealing with that document for quite sometime now, and so far none of the

Page 38270

 1     people working on my team found a man who ever came across this document,

 2     so I don't want to speak of the details of the document to challenge it

 3     or do anything else, all I would like to say is that I personally, and

 4     that is the statement that I'm giving, I personally never saw that

 5     document, nor do I know of a single person who did.  And especially I

 6     look through the interviews that the investigators of this Tribunal had

 7     with people who are signatories of the document, at least I'm certain of

 8     one, not of the other, and that person -- well, that interview was

 9     conducted over a period of almost 12 hours.  It lasted for almost 12

10     hours.  The person was shown over 100 documents, and when the document

11     came before his eyes, the man, I think, just as far as that document, he

12     said that he never saw that document or knew what it was about.

13             Now, I'd just like to refer to a detail from this document; that

14     somebody could throw 22 or however many people into the Neretva river,

15     yes, 29, just that particular detail.  We held discussions and debates as

16     to the -- as to two men, and I assume that it would have been something

17     mentioned in some other document.  The document hasn't got a stamp.  It

18     hasn't got any signatures, no names at the bottom.  And if you destroy a

19     man, then I'm being destroyed here by documents of that kind.  And that's

20     not the only document of that kind.  There was another document presented

21     here umpteen times from Capljina, if you remember, and everybody denied

22     having seen it.  Nobody had ever seen it.  But it is still being

23     presented here again and again.

24             And all I want to say, I'm not challenging that those people

25     should be discussed.  I'm not talking about the destiny of any of those

Page 38271

 1     men or those 29 men if you say that that was how many there were, I don't

 2     know what happened.  But the fact remains that nobody, and as far as I

 3     heard from the other Defence teams and my own Defence team working on the

 4     case, where there are 15 people on the team, that they never ever found

 5     traces going back to that document, and yesterday the document was served

 6     to knock out this man as soon as he sat down on his chair.

 7             So thank you for allowing me to say that.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone in the

 9     courtroom --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

11             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise, Mr. President.  I've got two hours,

12     and I'm worried about being able to use all my time today.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The witness's

14     comments are on the transcript.  Mr. Coric's comments have also been

15     recorded.  He has told us that despite the research he has conducted, he

16     has found no traces of the author of the document in question.  So all of

17     this has been recorded.  Mr. Stringer, you have the floor.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Sorry, just a detail for the -- Ms. Nozica

19     Ms. Nozica, sorry, a detail for the transcript, it would be good if we

20     had the number of the document which has been commented upon in the

21     transcript, and I think that it was not in the transcript.

22             Mr. Bandic, perhaps you can recall which was the number of the

23     document that you have commented.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, no, Your Honour.

25             MR. STRINGER:  It's P03630.

Page 38272

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  P03630.

 2             MR. STRINGER: [Overlapping speakers]

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I'm sorry.  Ms. Nozica, I think

 4     is ...

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

 6     document is on the Prosecution list and the number is as at Prosecutor

 7     said, well, he's told us, and 3641 as well.  Number 3641 as well.  And I

 8     just wanted to say something with respect to what Mr. Bandic just said.

 9     I didn't know Mr. Coric would stand up, and that I would examine the

10     document in redirect so we can leave it until later on.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please go ahead.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bandic.  When we finished with your

15     testimony --

16             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I believe we need to go back into

17     private session.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38273











11 Pages 38273-38300 redacted. Private session.















Page 38301

 1    (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Bandic, we are going to move to a different subject

 6     now.  In binder number 3, which is the one to your right, it's right

 7     there, that's it, yes.  It's Exhibit P10327.  I have some questions about

 8     this.  It's not a document you've seen before, but I'm going to ask you a

 9     few questions about it anyway.

10             It's a document of the special warfare section.  I believe it's

11     directed to the special warfare section of the political administration

12     of the Croatian Defence Ministry.  It's from deputy director Andre Rora,

13     R-o-r-a.  It's dated the 6th of April, 1994.  Do you have that document,

14     sir? ?  You need to say it out --

15        A.   Yes, yes, yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I do see that.

16        Q.   The report that's being written about various activities of the

17     special warfare section of the political administration that were

18     undertaken by this person, Mr. Rora, in December of 1993 to April of 1994

19     where he says there at the beginning:  He was sent as an expert assistant

20     to the HVO and the newly created defence ministry of the Croatian

21     Republic of Herceg-Bosna.

22             Now, I would like to direct you to page 2 of this document, page

23     2, both the English and the Serbo-Croatian, and I'm going to read a few

24     passages to you, starting at the top of the English on the fifth line:

25             "While providing assistance to this department, OP OR," and OP OR

Page 38302

 1     is this special warfare section, "OPOR organised and published a

 2     propaganda prospectus with information on Muslim crimes against Croat

 3     civilians which was distributed to foreign journalist."

 4             And then the writer of this report goes down, he continues

 5     talking about the various things he did, which I'm going to skip over.

 6             And then continuing on about 12 lines down, he says that:

 7             "By applying the instructions the following psychological

 8     propaganda material was produced in this section, not counting about

 9     external contributors," and he talks about various media events,

10     articles, radio, TV reports, et cetera.

11             And then the part that I'm most interested in underneath that he

12     says that:

13             "For the production of PP material," which I believe is this

14     propaganda material, "the OPOR generously profited from the information

15     which nearly daily arrived from SIS and the VOS, the military

16     intelligence service."

17             And he says:

18             "Particularly good cooperation was established with the" latter,

19     I believe, is the intended word in English.  "All SIS and VOS reports are

20     regularly archived."

21             My question, sir, is this:  Whether you were aware whether it's

22     true that in fact an important function of the SIS of the HVO was for its

23     reports to be made available for the production of propaganda materials?

24     Do you know anything about that?

25        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I really don't know any of this,

Page 38303

 1     any of what you are asking me about.  But if I can just say, this is a

 2     sort of working material, and if I can say something, it should be the

 3     last variant.  We don't know what SIS this is, whether the SIS of Croatia

 4     or the Croatia Republic of Herceg-Bosna, we don't know what SIS it is

 5     here, and I really don't know anything about it.  I never heard about the

 6     department, about this man, Mr. Rora or whatever, I think he was a

 7     journalist.  I seem to have heard his name in the media, the Croatian

 8     media, but nothing other than that.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38304

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but the

 6     Prosecutor is still going back to the topic of when the witness worked in

 7     the intelligence service because the same topics from those materials are

 8     being broached again, so perhaps we need to go into private session.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to redact this.

10             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] I'd like to object to the

11     question because it states that the HIS hid someone, we saw not a shred

12     of evidence in this courtroom.  All the evidence we had that that was

13     done by the SIS and not the HIS, so may we make that point quite clear.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you prepare an

15     order to have this passage redacted, please.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I can come back to

17     that, actually.

18        Q.   Let me move on to the next point, Mr. Bandic, which is in item

19     number 7 of this, and this relates to passage on page 5 of the English.

20     This is item 7(b).  I'm just going to read this to you, and I'm going to

21     ask you if you can comment.  Colonel Viktor Andric, since the HR HB

22     president dismissed, but only proform Ivica Rajic, commander of HVO

23     Kiseljak, due to international accusations for the war crimes committed

24     in Stupni Do, Vares municipality, we had to fill in that vacant command

25     position and cover up the further activity of Rajic.  That is why the

Page 38305

 1     person of Colonel Andric was invented who got the credit for all other

 2     HVO activities in the free area of Kiseljak, Kresevo, Fojnica and Visoko.

 3     And then the writer of this report goes on to talk about some of the

 4     fabricated interviews he did with Colonel Andric.

 5             Now, recognising, sir, that you haven't seen this report, you've

 6     testified a lot about your knowledge and presence in the area of Stupni

 7     Do, Kiseljak, and Colonel Rajic.  My question, sir, is isn't that

 8     essentially a correct description of what happened in respect of the

 9     identity of Ivica Rajic, that the leadership of the HVO knowingly, in

10     order to hide him, assigned him a new identity Viktor Andric and left him

11     in his position commanding the brigade in Kiseljak?

12        A.   Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, I wish to put you right first.  I

13     was never in the Stupni Do area.  Now, as far as Mr. Rajic or Mr. Andric

14     is concerned, I would see the man around and on during my last stay in

15     the Kiseljak area, I think in February or March, I'm quite certain that

16     General Petkovic was with me on that occasion, that's when I happened to

17     see him there.

18             Now, as to the decisions made by the leadership and President

19     Boban, that's not something that I know about, I would see the man over

20     there, and regardless of the fact that he shaved off his mustache, I

21     recognise the man.  Now whether there was some Viktor Andric, some man in

22     the physical sense, whether a physical man by the name of Viktor Andric

23     existed, I don't know.  I know many things from what the papers said.

24     But Ivica Rajic, the person Ivica Rajic was there, I saw him there, the

25     only thing is that the person shaved off his mustache.  Although, it did

Page 38306

 1     make a mark difference to his face.

 2        Q.   So you don't know anything yourself, you didn't get any

 3     information as the SIS person at Main Staff, you didn't get any

 4     information about switching the identity of Mr. Rajic; is that your

 5     testimony?

 6        A.   That's right, Mr. Prosecutor.  The newspapers, the media

 7     published that, but I did see that man over there, and General Petkovic

 8     was with me and commented.  All I know is that in those comments we noted

 9     that President Boban had made the decision.  And that's all.  That's all

10     we could say.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before the break, as

12     opposed to the Prosecutor, when I look at this text, he attributes this

13     to the HVO.  This is not the conclusion I reach.  The text we have before

14     us stems from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, OPOR

15     Zagreb 6 of April, 1994.  The author of the document is Andrej Rora, who

16     is the deputy director of this body.  When he talks about Rajic, he says

17     that it is I fabricated the interview.  So one is under the impression

18     that all of this has been done in Zagreb.  What do you have to say to

19     this?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once again, I repeat,

21     I have never seen this document.  You are quite right when you say that

22     it says the Republic of Croatia in the letterhead.  I did not know this

23     Mr. Rora.  I just came across his name in the media.  Now, who took part

24     in this and in which way is something that I don't know.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Last question [French on English channel].

Page 38307

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's apology.

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Bandic, just to wrap this up, we see here the distribution of

 4     this memorandum and this was distributed, among other people, to

 5     Mr. Kostroman, who is the person we've just spoken about; correct?

 6     According to this.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters could not hear the witness.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   You have to speak more loudly, sir.

10        A.   Yes, yes, that is correct.  That can be seen here where it says

11     cc'd to.  However, this is a work document.  I believe that it is like

12     the original, but I don't see why we are not looking at the original.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I'm ready for the break now.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall have a 20 minute break

15     now.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, please proceed.

19     You have one hour and 8 minutes left.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Bandic, when we took the break, I was starting to ask you

22     some questions about events linked to Kiseljak and Stupni Do, and

23     particularly I was asking you about any knowledge you might have had

24     about the switch of identity of Ivica Rajic.  Do you remember me asking

25     about that?

Page 38308

 1        A.   Yes, Mr. President, I remember.

 2        Q.   And you indicated, I'm just looking at the transcript here, you

 3     indicated that the newspaper, the media, had published that, that you did

 4     see that man, I think you are referring to Mr. Rajic, and that you were

 5     with General Petkovic.  You said, "All I know is that in those comments

 6     we noted that President Boban had made the decision and that's all,

 7     that's all we could say."

 8             So I would like to ask you to look in that same binder at Exhibit

 9     P10809.  10809.  This is the Globus Article that you've been asked about

10     already by I think two of the Defence teams.  10809.  This is an article

11     published in the Globus in -- on the 2nd of December 2005.  10809, do you

12     have that?

13        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

14        Q.   I'm going to direct you to page 4 of the English translation.

15     And then in the Serbo-Croatian, Mr. Bandic, it would be the page that has

16     the number which ends in 0638.  We don't have that paginated.  But if you

17     look on the bottom right-hand corner, you'll see a number and it ends

18     0638.  And there's a part on that I want to refer you to.  And this is

19     what is published in this interview that you've already testified about a

20     couple of time.

21             You were asked:  "Why did Rajic change his name to Viktor

22     Andric?"

23             And you said:

24             "That was Boban's order.  He, Rajic, had to be moved or

25     camouflaged to appease representative of the international community whom

Page 38309

 1     Rajic irritated, and he was camouflaged by changing his name and shaving

 2     his moustache.  Of course, everyone still knew who he was, and it looked

 3     as if he were in fact mocking the international community with his new

 4     image."

 5             Then you were asked:

 6             "Did General Petkovic know?"

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Would you mind slowing down, thank you.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   "Did General Petkovic know about the change of Rajic's identity?"

10             And you said:

11             "Yes, he was the one to convey the order."

12             You were then asked:

13             "How was finally Rajic moved from Bosnia-Herzegovina?"

14             You said:

15             "By the order of Minister Gojko Susak, he was moved to the

16     Republic of Croatia where a job was found for him, and as I later learned

17     a false identity was secured for him."

18             Finally, you were asked:

19             "Did General Petkovic know that too?"

20             And you said:

21             "Yes."

22             Now, this is the Globus article, Mr. Bandic, you've already

23     testified in your direct and I don't know if cross-examination by the

24     Petkovic team, isn't that a true statement?  Isn't that a correct

25     statement of what you know and what you knew about the false identity of

Page 38310

 1     Viktor Andric?

 2        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, allow me, please, to explain very

 3     briefly the circumstances concerning this interview.  For the sake of the

 4     complete truth regarding everything that is referred to in this

 5     interview.  It was given about 15 years after the said events.  It was

 6     given involving knowledge I obtained subsequently as an average citizen,

 7     or, of course, a person working in the diplomatic service.

 8            At the same time, it was roughly the time when (redacted)

 9     (redacted) with the OTP.  I personally, I'm speaking personally now,

10     was greatly disappointed by that.  This is free interpretation on the

11     part of the journalist, I did not authorise this interview.  In the next

12     issue, or one after that, I actually asked in writing that --

13        Q.   Yeah, I'm going to have to cut you off, and I'm going to try to

14     ask you just to be more direct, and I'll ask you a direct question.  Did

15     you say this in this interview which has been published and which you've

16     already affirmed twice in the previous examinations, are these your

17     words?  Do you accept this or not, that's my question?

18        A.   I do not accept it the way it was put here in this weekly.  Once

19     again, I wish to explain all the circumstances involved, how I gave this

20     interview and why, and of course as a Croatian diplomat, I had to have

21     consent for giving this interview because I could not appear in the media

22     just on my own.

23        Q.   It's true, isn't it, Mr. Bandic, that General Petkovic did in

24     fact know and approve switching the identity of Viktor Andric?

25             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection to in

Page 38311

 1     relation to the word "approve."  Whether somebody could have approved a

 2     decision or not of the president of the HZ-HB and the supreme command of

 3     the HVO, I think that there is no need to go into that.  It is

 4     superfluous, so the word is wrong.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  I am allowed to use whatever word I want,

 6     Mr. President, when I ask my questions.  And if I use the wrong words,

 7     I'm sure the witness will take full advantage of that.  My question to

 8     the witness-stands.

 9        Q.   Is it true that Petkovic knew and approved of the switching the

10     identity?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the Prosecutor is

12     entitled to feel that in his view General Petkovic approved the switch of

13     identity.  That's his case.  That's why he asked the question, maybe the

14     witness will answer yes, no, I don't know.  Your objection is of no use.

15     Just let the Prosecutor speak, and you can say General Petkovic never

16     approved it.  But the Prosecutor is entitled to think that General

17     Petkovic did approve the switch.

18             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour,

19     precisely because an answer cannot be given to this question just in

20     terms of yes or no, a possible answer is, Yes, he knew, but he did not

21     approve it because General Petkovic cannot approve from his own position

22     decisions made by someone who is so much above him.  I kindly ask

23     Mr. Stringer to subdivide his question into two, and therefore to make it

24     possible for the witness to respond to each and every one of those

25     questions.

Page 38312

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He is master of his

 2     questioning.  He decides as to the way he is going to ask the questions.

 3     It's at his own risk if he goes about it wrongly, too bad for him.  The

 4     Judges will judge.

 5             My colleague would like to ask you to break down the question,

 6     just as you please.  My fellow judge would rather you would break the

 7     question into two.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And if I could offer

 9     one brief comment because I've always been impressed by counsel's legal

10     and advocacy skills, but I think it's unfortunate when counsel continues

11     to object as a means of offering answers and suggesting answers to the

12     witness, which is clearly what's going on here, and I'd ask counsel to

13     kindly refrain from doing that.  But I'll try to break the question down.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, I fully agree

15     with what you said, even in civil law countries, a lawyer would not dare

16     raise this kind of objection.  They would let the Prosecutor put their

17     question, and then they would take over from that, so the objection has

18     to be raised only if something out of the ordinary is being said, but as

19     far as I can see, you are perfectly entitled to put your case.  Please

20     continue.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Witness, I'm going to ask you to go to a different exhibit, maybe

23     we can use that to break this down.  In -- it's Exhibit P07352, which is

24     in this binder on your right -- it's in a different binder, sorry.  Yes,

25     it's in this binder, 7352.  This is a communication dated the 27th of

Page 38313

 1     December, 1993, from commander Colonel Ivica Rajic, directed to the HVO

 2     Main Staff, attention Milivoj Petkovic.  7352.  Perhaps the Registrar

 3     could assist you, otherwise I'm losing time.

 4             Rajic says:

 5             "After a review of the text that was delivered to you, it was

 6     noted that you had been given the name of Martin instead of Viktor.

 7     Please note that the correct information regarding the new name is Viktor

 8     Andric."

 9             Have you ever seen this document before, sir?

10        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I've never seen this document.

11        Q.   Okay.  Could you then move to P07359.  7359.  This is dated the

12     following day, the 28th of December, 1993.  It's from commander Colonel

13     Viktor Andric.  It's an urgent request directed to the HVO Main Staff in

14     Posusje to major General Petkovic asking for a written document again

15     it's coming from Viktor Andric.  Have you ever seen this, sir?

16        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I've a never seen this document

17     before.

18        Q.   Have you ever seen any documentation or are you aware of any

19     communications between Milivoj Petkovic and Viktor Andric that go to this

20     period of time beginning in December 1993?

21        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I have not seen a single document

22     like this.

23        Q.   Could you please go to P7401.  7401.  This is an appointment.

24     It's dated the 30th of December, 1993, at 2150 hours in which the

25     commander of the central Bosnia operative zone, Colonel Blaskic is

Page 38314

 1     appointing a person named Colonel Viktor Andric to the position of

 2     commander of the forward post command of the Vitez military district in

 3     Kiseljak.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I see that.

 5        Q.   Have you ever seen this document before?

 6        A.   I have not seen it before.  This is the first time I see it,

 7     Mr. Prosecutor.

 8        Q.   Okay.  The next document, it's P7394.  7394.  Now, this one, the

 9     last one from Colonel Blaskic was dated the 30th of December at 2150

10     hours.  This one is five minutes later on 30 December at 2155 hours.  And

11     by this order, Colonel Blaskic is dismissing Ivica Rajic from the same

12     position to which he has just appointed Viktor Andric.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I see that.

14        Q.   Have you ever seen this document before?

15        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.

16        Q.   Did you have knowledge about this, that is the fact that Colonel

17     Blaskic dismissed Rajic at the same time he appointed Viktor Andric to

18     the post of commander of the Forward Command Post in Kiseljak?

19        A.   Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, I did the not know.  Again, I

20     repeat, I saw the same person but with a changed identity.

21        Q.   And you are saying still that you didn't have any knowledge that

22     General Petkovic, and I'll break it down now, you don't know that General

23     Petkovic was aware of that?  That he had knowledge about that?

24        A.   Your Honours, esteemed Prosecutor, I don't know whether General

25     Petkovic knew.  I really cannot say.

Page 38315

 1        Q.   And that's despite the statements that are attributed to you in

 2     the Globus article that we were just looking at; correct?

 3        A.   That is not correct.  Quite simply, if you wish, once again, I

 4     can repeat this.  To the best of my knowledge, in terms of what I found

 5     out subsequently, this switch of identity was approved, ordered by

 6     Mr. Boban.  Mr. Petkovic, General Petkovic and I saw the same man, we saw

 7     the same man with a changed identity, or, rather, with a mustache that

 8     had been shaven off.

 9        Q.   All right.

10        A.   Now, that's the only thing that I can say.  Whether General

11     Petkovic knew that it was the same person, I assume the answer is yes.

12     It wasn't that there were such dramatic changes on the man's face.

13        Q.   Well, in fact, Ivica Rajic remained in command in Kiseljak as

14     Viktor Andric well into 1994; isn't that true?

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, yes, he was commander there, but I don't really

16     know up until when.  I don't know when he was replaced or withdrawn from

17     that position.  I don't know that.

18        Q.   And so wouldn't you agree with me, sir, that it would be

19     impossible for General Petkovic not to know that in fact Colonel Rajic

20     was in fact Viktor Andric, his subordinate in the field in Kiseljak?

21        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I've already said the changes on the man were not

22     that dramatic so as not to be able to recognise him as one in the same

23     person.

24        Q.   Well, we just looked at a couple of documents, a couple of

25     communications between Colonel Rajic, Viktor Andric, and General

Page 38316

 1     Petkovic.  Now, you said you hadn't seen those before.  Now that you've

 2     seen them, sir, would you agree with me that that would indicate in fact

 3     that General Petkovic did have knowledge that Viktor Andric was the same

 4     person as Ivica Rajic?

 5        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I can agree with you in part.  Once again, I

 6     repeat, the changes on this man who is mentioned here, Viktor Andric,

 7     Ivica Rajic, were not that dramatic so that one could not conclude that

 8     it's one in the same person.  That's the only thing I can say.

 9        Q.   Now, you've indicated already a number of times that the events

10     at Stupni Do generated -- you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the events

11     at Stupni Do generated a lot of international interest, a lot of media

12     coverage, and therefore required a lot of attention; is that a fair way

13     of putting it?

14        A.   Yes, you are right.  In the media that was highly prominent.

15        Q.   And would you also agree with me that once the events became

16     known and investigated, there was consensus that in fact war crimes had

17     been committed at Stupni Do?

18        A.   I can agree with you, for me that was a war crime, yes.

19        Q.   And would you also agree with me that during this period in

20     December of 1993 when we were looking at these documents about Viktor

21     Andric, that it was at the same time that the name of Ivica Rajic became

22     very closely linked with the war crimes committed at Stupni Do?

23        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, yes, that can be seen from these documents that

24     I've seen here for the first time now.  That can be linked up to him.

25        Q.   Would you then agree with me, Mr. Bandic, that switching the

Page 38317

 1     identity of Ivica Rajic, keeping him in command with a new identity would

 2     have sent a strong signal to his subordinates that if you commit crimes,

 3     the HVO will protect you?

 4             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection, because

 5     what is presumed in the question is that at that moment in 1993, somebody

 6     believed that Ivica Rajic had myth committed a crime.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  The witness just said that, Mr. President.

 8             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] The witness did not say that.

 9     The witness said that a crime had been committed.  He did not say that it

10     was Ivica Rajic who had committed it.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the witness agreed --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question is very clear.

13     Witness, please answer it.

14             MR. STRINGER:

15        Q.   Shall I repeat the question?

16        A.   Please do.

17        Q.   Let me go back to it just so that I get it right.  Would you then

18     agree with me, Mr. Bandic, that switching the identity of Ivica Rajic,

19     keeping him in command with a new identity, would have sent a strong

20     signal to his subordinates, that if you commit crimes, the HVO will

21     protect you?

22        A.   Esteemed Prosecutor, I would not agree with you in terms of any

23     part of the position that you have interpreted just now.  If you wish, I

24     can explain in greater detail why it is that I disagree.

25        Q.   I'll just -- I'll accept your answer, and I'm going to move on.

Page 38318

 1             When did you arrive in Kiseljak -- let me rephrase it.  I'm going

 2     to stay with Stupni Do.  We know that you were in the Kiseljak area in

 3     November of 1993 which is when you had the meetings with the UNPROFOR

 4     people that you testified about.  The events in Stupni Do happened around

 5     the 23rd of October, 1993, and the Trial Chamber knows that most of --

 6     many of the soldiers in the units that participated in that operation had

 7     just come down to Vares from Kiseljak.

 8             Were you and General Petkovic in Kiseljak at the time of the

 9     events in Stupni Do?

10        A.   Correct.  We were there then.

11        Q.   When had you arrived?  Let me ask this:  Did you come with

12     General Petkovic?

13        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I am practically certain that that is the way it

14     was, that we had come together.  It is almost impossible that we had come

15     separately because we were together almost always.

16        Q.   And did you remain, then, in Kiseljak continuously until the

17     third week of November when you had your first meeting with the UNPROFOR?

18        A.   Your Honours, Esteemed Prosecutor, no, as far as I can remember.

19     And I relate this to my birthday.  That's when we returned to the area of

20     Kiseljak.  In the meantime, we were probably in Herzegovina.  General

21     Petkovic carrying out his duties, I carrying out my own.  But after this

22     action around Vares, I cannot claim exactly what day it was.  Was it one

23     or two or three days, but then we left that area.

24        Q.   All right.  You left the area one or two or three days after the

25     events at Stupni Do?

Page 38319

 1        A.   That's right, that's right.

 2        Q.   And then you returned at about the time of your birthday on the

 3     17th of November?

 4        A.   I think that that would be the approximate time, Mr. Prosecutor.

 5        Q.   Could you go to P06519.  6519.  Which is in binder number 2 which

 6     I think is the one you have with you.  6519.  Now, Mr. Bandic, you'll

 7     correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty confident that from your

 8     testimony already about this document, you are saying that you didn't

 9     write this document, which is a report on the events at Stupni Do, you

10     didn't write it, and that you had not seen it; is that correct?

11        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know what report you are

12     referring to.  Are you referring to the report written by Mr. Rajic?

13        Q.   This is a report, this is the Exhibit P06519.  Yes, it's a report

14     appearing over the signatures of Ivica Rajic, and I have your testimony,

15     what you said about this report on your direct examination was that you

16     never drafted it and you never saw it; is that correct?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters could not hear the witness.

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   Restate your answer please, a bit more loudly.

20        A.   I stand by that statement.

21        Q.   Okay.  I would like to look at part of this document with you,

22     sir.  If you could go -- we are going to go to page 8 of the English.

23     It's page 6034 of the Croatian, if you look at the bottom.  6034.  Sir,

24     at the top -- top right, you'll see the number.  There are some

25     conclusions here.

Page 38320

 1             "... by analysing the evidence presented, the following

 2     conclusions can undoubtedly be reached."

 3             Starts with that:

 4             "The Stupni Do operation was militarily justified."  It goes on.

 5             The third point I want to draw your attention to:

 6             "The system of command and control, based on the principle of

 7     subordination, was for the most part abided by.  Individual unit members,

 8     Zoran Filipovic of the Maturice and Franjo Bakovic of the Apostoli,

 9     exceeded the instructions and the orders of their commanders, firing at

10     civilians located in houses."

11             And then continuing on to the next page in the English, I'm going

12     to skip some of these bullet points, but it continues on at the top of

13     the next page to say:

14             "A number of houses were set on fire by the BH Army and the

15     civilians themselves when they abandoned them.  This especially pertains

16     to newer homes..." et cetera.

17             Next bullet point:

18             "It is evident that a number of civilians were killed which was,

19     for the most part, the direct consequence of combat, but also the fact

20     that some civilians, especially women, actively participated in defending

21     the village, while some of the civilians were killed as a result of

22     ill-considered conduct by certain members of our units."

23             And then again a reference to Filipovic and Bakovic.

24             Okay.  Now, that's information that's contained in this report,

25     and I understand your testimony, sir, that you didn't write this report

Page 38321

 1     or did not see it.  Nonetheless, is that information that you were aware

 2     of based upon your own presence in the area?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you explained this document rather extensively,

 4     but again I say that I have never seen it, I did not participate in its

 5     making in any way.  As for these names, I've never heard of them.  The

 6     ones that are mentioned here, these members of the HVO who went beyond

 7     the rules of warfare, I can only say to you that --

 8        Q.   I'm just asking whether the information that I've just read out

 9     to you, is that information that was known to you, even if you didn't

10     write the report?  Did you know these things, two soldiers had been

11     involved in committing crimes, they burnt their own houses, things like

12     that?

13        A.   Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, I did not know at that point in time

14     while I was there.  I knew nothing of this.  The first more detailed

15     information I received from talking to the two members of the Apostoli.

16        Q.   And that didn't happen until November, as I understand it, when

17     you came back?

18        A.   That's right, correct.

19        Q.   Now, turning to the very end of this document, page 10 of the

20     English.  If you go to the very end where the signature of Colonel Rajic

21     appears, there are some initials there, and the initials ZD, or ZD, do

22     you see those?  Is that Zoran Duno or would that be Zoran Duno?

23        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, it could be.  Those are the initials, and there

24     is a person whose name is Zoran Duno, so you can link that to this.

25        Q.   Zoran Duno was with the SIS as part of the Ban Jelacic Brigade in

Page 38322

 1     Kiseljak; is that correct?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that is not absolutely correct.  What I know is

 3     that Mr. Duno was the assistant to Mr. Rajic for security in the brigade.

 4     And there was Mr. Marjanovic in the brigade as far as I know, whom I know

 5     personally, and to the best of my knowledge there was Mr. Rajic's

 6     brother, Nenad, whom I never met, but I was told that he was in the SIS

 7     of the brigade, which well, of itself is --

 8        Q.   Could you go to Exhibit 2D00944.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

10     question on this document.  We were aware of it, we had an opportunity to

11     look into these events through other witnesses.  In this report by

12     Colonel Rajic towards the end, but also in the beginning, he said that a

13     procedure had to be initiated and that the military Prosecutor had to be

14     seized of it.  In writing this, and it can be seen clearly at the

15     beginning of the report, the military judicial authorities are aware of

16     this.  I wonder about this.  What about the follow-up?  If the

17     investigative judge was doing his work, he would summon Mr. Rajic, and

18     then the Judge would realise that this man was not Rajic but Andric, and

19     everything would be discovered.  So what does this all mean to you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, at that

21     time when this document was compiled, to best of my knowledge, or as can

22     be seen from the documents we looked at so far, Mr. Rajic was still that

23     man Rajic from those times.  And the second thing you noticed, which

24     would also be logical for the military Prosecutor to call him and others,

25     the others who provide information, to call them to interview them, to

Page 38323

 1     talk to them about it.  And of course to try and talk to the people who

 2     were there on the spot, to collect information, to take statements, and

 3     so on and so forth.  That's how I understand it.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   In binder number 3, which is the one on the floor next to you, if

 7     you could go to 2D00944.  If you keep that one with you also, if you can.

 8     2D944.  Page 5 of the English version, this is 19 November, 1993.  This

 9     is a list of the HVO units and SIS personnel in them.  It appears over

10     the signature of your superior, Ivica Lucic.  And on page 5 of the

11     English, and it's item number 9, there's a reference to the Ban Jelacic

12     Brigade, Kiseljak, Bojnice, Kresevo; do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You've already mentioned Mr. Marjanovic as one of the SIS people

15     with the brigade, does this also indicate that Zoran Duno is, as

16     indicated here, an advisor for the SIS with the brigade?

17        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, as I said, there were there were

18     various titles in various documents, and as far as I know, as I've

19     already said, Mr. Marjanovic was in the brigade and Mr. Duno was the

20     assistant commander operative group 2; that is to say, Mr. Rajic for

21     security.

22        Q.   Okay, well, at least your superior, Mr. Lucic, thinks that

23     Mr. Duno works for the SIS, would you agree with me on that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did the SIS attached to the Ban Jelacic Brigade conduct an

Page 38324

 1     investigation of the events on Stupni Do?

 2        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I'm not aware of that.  I don't

 3     know, but it imposes itself logically that certain measures should be

 4     taken and that people should work in that direction along those lines.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bandic, now we have you, and I know you had different titles,

 6     but we have you basically as the number 2 man in the SIS administration.

 7     You are attached to the Main Staff.  You are going around everywhere with

 8     General Petkovic as a security officer.  Now, are you telling us, sir,

 9     that you don't know if the SIS with the brigade conducted an

10     investigation at Stupni Do?

11        A.   Correct, I don't know that.  But I wasn't the second man in the

12     administration, the number two man.  That post did not exist.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, you were the security officer with General Petkovic.

14     You are linked in some way to SIS.  You did nothing to ensure that an

15     investigation was being undertaken even though you were in the area

16     shortly after the event occurred?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, as soon as I went back to the area, and in view

18     of the events that happened, and as they were presented to the public

19     from different sides with a lot of propaganda, I, as an operative, and as

20     someone from the security system, I personally endeavoured to collect

21     information about it, and that is why I talked to the two people who were

22     there.

23        Q.   But you didn't make any official reports about it; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   That's not correct, Your Honours, and Mr. Prosecutor.  As to that

Page 38325

 1     discussion, I did write a report to my superior, or rather, I sent the

 2     report about my conversations with those two individuals.  I sent it to

 3     the administration.

 4        Q.   Will you please turn to P06647.  6647.  It's in binder 2.  It's

 5     the one on the floor, sorry.  6647.

 6        A.   Yes, it's easier for me to look at it on the screen.

 7        Q.   However you wish.  And it might be easier for you with this one,

 8     because I believe from your testimony you've indicated that you authored

 9     the majority of what is written in this document; is that correct?  You

10     have to say it out loud?

11        A.   Yes, yes, that is correct.

12        Q.   Now, we don't need to go through this in detail, but as you've

13     indicated that you wrote it or you wrote the majority, let me just put it

14     to you this way, would you agree with me, sir, that this is your report

15     and it is -- it's about Ivica Rajic and his activities and some of the

16     people that he has been associated with in the Kiseljak area?  Is that a

17     correct way of describing this?

18        A.   Your Honours and Mr. Prosecutor, yes, that's what it is about,

19     and based on our information, as it was, Mr. Rajic did deal in these

20     unlawful acts.  Had it been anybody else, we would have done the same as

21     we saw with the other case when it was a matter of crime committed by a

22     member of the SIS, the late Mr. Bosnjak.

23        Q.   Now, at the end of this document it says, and we can take you to

24     it if you like, I can read it to you, at the very end, the conclusion or

25     last paragraph it says:  "In view of what has been said above,"

Page 38326

 1     et cetera, "... I propose that some personnel changes be made in the

 2     military and civilian sectors of Kiseljak HVO."

 3             This is page 5 of the English.  "I propose that some personnel

 4     changes be made..."

 5        A.   I can't see the last page but I can stand by that, because they

 6     were opinions stated on the basis of information and knowledge gathered,

 7     and that was one of the suggestions or possible suggestions that

 8     something be done along those lines.

 9        Q.   And to be more specific, one of your proposals, or this -- I take

10     it you are recommending, among other things, that Mr. Rajic be removed

11     from his position; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  And you can see that from this document.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, I waited

15     for the answer, not to interrupt the Prosecutor, as Judge Antonetti told

16     us, but it doesn't say in this document -- well, if the Prosecutor is

17     interpreting it, it should be interpreted correctly.  He is speaking in

18     the singular, as if it was witness's stand, whereas in the document the

19     plural is used, "we propose."  So if the Prosecutor interprets what is

20     written, he should interpret it correctly and the witness can answer any

21     way he chooses.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Well, I'm looking at 6647 where my translation

23     uses the singular, "I propose."  Now, it's in 6828 where the plural "we

24     propose" is found, so that may be the reason for the confusion.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] In document 6647, it says "we

Page 38327

 1     propose," and the witness can read it out again, if need be, if there's

 2     something contentious, then it's the translation that is wrong, but it

 3     says the same, we propose, "predlazemo" in the plural.

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Bandic, can you -- you can see the end of the document there,

 6     maybe you're the best -- well, you are obviously the best person to tell

 7     us what you wrote.  Did you say I propose or we propose, because my

 8     English translation says "I propose that some personnel changes be made."

 9        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, it says, "predlazemo," "we propose," in the

10     plural.  The O isn't very legible, maybe because of that, but it does say

11     we propose.  And if I may explain why in the plural, because it's a

12     number of -- it's a collective report, a collection of reports, and on

13     the basis of those reports suggestions were made, so I couldn't propose

14     it myself to withdraw someone or something like that, replace.  All I

15     could do was provide information about certain people.

16        Q.   And the proposal of you and the others who with whom you

17     collaborated on this report was, among other thing, to remove Ivica

18     Rajic; correct?

19        A.   Once again, let me repeat, I can't remove anybody or propose that

20     they be removed, all I can do is suggest on the basis of the information

21     we collected, and to indicate this to people and say which people were

22     responsible for such and such behaviour.

23        Q.   Witness, will you go, please, to Exhibit P06963, which is in

24     binder number 2.

25             MR. STRINGER:  And I believe this is a confidential document that

Page 38328

 1     requires us go into private session.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38329











11 Pages 38329-38339 redacted. Private session.















Page 38340

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14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session you attended

18     this meeting and the author of this report, this document we have before

19     us, says that General Petkovic was embarrassed.  As far as you remember,

20     was that the case or not?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Esteemed

22     Mr. President, I really cannot remember.  I can just confirm to you that

23     my talks -- that is to say, well, when Mr. Petkovic was there, obviously

24     I wouldn't even take the floor.  I also felt embarrassed and, of course,

25     it wasn't very pleasant for me after a lot of information had gone into

Page 38341

 1     the public by then, but I simply cannot remember what meeting that was.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The document mentions two HVO

 3     officers and others who have been dismissed.  The Prosecutor believes

 4     that General Petkovic lied when he said this.  As far as you remember,

 5     was this ever mentioned or not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I

 7     really do not remember that these two suspended persons were mentioned at

 8     all.  In this case, the Prosecutor said that these were men who had

 9     already been killed.  I really cannot remember this meeting.  I think

10     this meeting actually took place later even.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The author of this report draws

12     his conclusion based on the fact that General Petkovic had information

13     provided by Radio Sarajevo or other sources.  During your exchange of

14     views, was an interpreter present?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember,

16     Mr. President, there was an interpreter.  As far as I can remember, there

17     was an interpreter because we always spoke Croatian, and I know that the

18     young lady's name was Renata.  Later on, when I attended other meetings

19     with Mr. Lucic, she interpreted there.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you remember, I know

21     it's difficult, did General Petkovic say, Yes, I know that because I

22     listen to Radio Sarajevo, or because I had other information?  This is

23     what the author of the report states.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot recall

25     these details at all, but I do remember that General Petkovic and I were

Page 38342

 1     commenting on our way back how much misinformation there was, rumours

 2     about everything that was happening out there, that is to say, before the

 3     crime in Stupni Do, and afterwards, I think that on our way back we were

 4     commenting on this.  There was a great deal of information of different

 5     kinds, rumours, et cetera, it was hard to find one's way.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One has the feeling that the

 7     author of the document reaches the conclusion that the HVO was going to

 8     carry out an investigation and take a disciplinary measures if need be.

 9     This is what the author of this document states.  Do you remember this?

10     Was this ever mentioned or not?  Did General Petkovic say, We shall carry

11     out an investigation and do what needs to be done, because this is what

12     is stated at the end of this report?  You don't remember?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Mr. President, I cannot

14     remember any detail, whether there was specific mention of some person or

15     some persons or whether there were proceedings, I really cannot remember

16     these details.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see that at the end of the

18     document there is something which the Prosecutor did not mention, which

19     is a comment of a general nature.  He says that General Petkovic's orders

20     are not abided by by the commanders in Vares.  In the course of this

21     conversation, was this issue addressed?  Did General Petkovic say, Well,

22     I'm not aware of what has happened, the commanders are doing all sorts of

23     things?  How is it that the author reaches this conclusion?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once again, I repeat,

25     I cannot remember this conversation at all, the details involved, but in

Page 38343

 1     my previous testimony, I told you about lots and lots of controversial

 2     information about the situation in the HVO of Vares, and generally the

 3     political and military circumstances that prevailed there just before

 4     that tragic event.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document we have, other

 6     important topics are addressed like the evacuation of the Mostar

 7     hospital, the freeing of the detainees.  But we can see that the person

 8     who has drafted the document states that it is urgent to try and make

 9     sure that General Petkovic goes back to Split by plane.  Had he remained,

10     it was -- he had not left before because of the bad weather conditions.

11     Do you remember this at all?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I just

13     remember that several times we were being transferred by UNPROFOR

14     helicopters.  That detail I cannot recall what the weather was like.  It

15     must have been bad if we could not fly.  However, in addition to

16     helicopter flights, General Petkovic and I travelled by road as well, so

17     I cannot remember in this particular case whether we returned by

18     helicopter or by some vehicle.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have six minutes left, you

20     might be able to finish the end of your cross-examination before the

21     break.  You have exactly six minutes left.

22             MR. STRINGER:  I thought I had about 15 minutes, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar has just told me

24     it's six.

25             MR. STRINGER:  He is always right.

Page 38344

 1        Q.   Yes, I'll I think that we can try to finish this.  Mr. Bandic,

 2     just a different subject, P03227.  3227.  It's in the first binder.

 3        A.   Two binders start with a P, so.

 4        Q.   And I think the next series should be close by.  Okay.  This is

 5     dated the 6th of July, 1993.  It's coming from Colonel Siljeg at the

 6     north-west Herzegovina operative zone, Rama Brigade.  And it says:

 7             "Final destination for all arrested military conscripts of Muslim

 8     nationality from Rama area, should be urgently requested through the SIS

 9     of north-west Herzegovina operations zone and through the SIS

10     administration of the Defence Department of the Mostar HVO, and the

11     arrested persons should be immediately sent to the designated location."

12             Now, Mr. Bandic, we talked about this at the very beginning of

13     your testimony about the arrests of all the Muslim males in the summer of

14     1993.  Is it true, sir, as indicated here that the placement of the

15     detainees was something that was coordinated with SIS both in the

16     brigades and the SIS administration in Mostar.

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that is absolutely not correct.  As a matter of

18     fact, that's not what the documents are called.  I've never seen this

19     document before, and I do not know that anyone ever acted on the basis of

20     such a document.

21        Q.   Okay.  The next one is 3498.  Okay?  This is dated ten days later

22     on the 16th of July.  This is from the Rama Brigade SIS to the SIS

23     administration Mostar, saying that:

24             "On the basis of the order of the commander of the operative zone

25     of 6 July, we send the following persons of Muslim nationality to

Page 38345

 1     military prison."

 2             And then it has a list of all the people who are the prisoners.

 3     And then before I ask you a question, would you turn then to P03551.

 4     3551.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, this is the 19th of July, three days later, this is from

 7     Chief Valentin Coric, and this is regarding -- an information regarding

 8     your report to the Mostar SIS, reference 03028293, which is actually the

 9     document we were just looking at, which is the list.

10             Coric says:

11             "We are informing you that due to the large number of detained

12     persons of Muslim nationality, we are unable to receive the people that,

13     according to the aforementioned report, you are planning to sends to

14     Mostar central military remand prison, and that you should, therefore,

15     keep them detained within your operation zone."

16             So doesn't this in fact show these documents, sir, that the SIS

17     administration in Mostar was coordinating with the military police

18     administration, of which Mr. Coric was the chief, in terms of the

19     locating, transporting, and detaining of all of the prisoners who were

20     being arrested at this time?

21        A.   Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, the way you put this, makes it

22     necessary to give an explanation.  Military conscripts who were brought

23     in at that point in time, that is to say, at the level of brigades and

24     operative zones, obviously there were reports about that, to the best of

25     my knowledge, there were many problems at these lower levels of

Page 38346

 1     coordination and so on.  At higher levels, things functioned up to a

 2     point, but if you allow me, I will give you a very telling example.

 3        Q.   Excuse me, unfortunately, we don't have time for that.  Let me

 4     just ask you one last question --

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do beg your pardon, I did not mean

 6     to interrupt my colleague, but sometimes even I do not understand how

 7     these proceedings move along.  P3418 is the document that he put to the

 8     witness, and Mr. Siljeg is writing this document, and in paragraph 13 he

 9     himself says that that is not the way things were done.  When the

10     Prosecutor has these documents that clearly indicate that things were not

11     done this way, then the witness is being misled in a way.  I prepared

12     this document for redirect, and, Your Honours, you can look at the

13     document, 3418, paragraph 13 of this document.  Mr. Siljeg exactly says,

14     When we asked for them to be moved, no one helped us.

15             So the witness is being led to something in relation to which

16     there is an exhibit that says the opposite.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a classical question

18     for redirect, Ms. Nozica.  Mr. Stringer, your time is up, please finish

19     as quickly as you can.

20             MR. STRINGER:  The last exhibit and just a quick question about

21     it is P04274.  4274.  Thank you, Registrar.

22        Q.   It's a report dated 18 August, 1993.  This is coming from the 4th

23     Brigade military police, which is in Ljubuski, someone named Ante Prlic

24     and Jure Herceg.  I want to ask you a question about the procedure that's

25     referred to here.  He's talking about prisoners of Muslim nationality who

Page 38347

 1     are in the Ljubuski military prison.

 2             "All prisoners who possess the guarantee letters and certificates

 3     issued by SIS and crime department proving that they have no criminal

 4     record were released, as well as those who possess certificates issued by

 5     Defence Department.  During the day, 24 prisoners who had such documents

 6     were released, and they moved out within 24 hours along with their

 7     families."

 8             Were you aware, sir, of a practice whereby SIS was involved in

 9     issuing passes to prisoners who could be released from the prison as long

10     as they then moved out of Ljubuski with their families?  Do you know

11     about that?

12        A.   Your Honour, Mr. Prosecutor, I have to correct you.  It isn't

13     passes that we are dealing with.  They weren't passes.  The security

14     service had the task of possibly checking to see whether certain -- they

15     have information about certain individuals with respect to certain

16     unlawful acts and so on, and then through their records, this would be

17     checked out, whether there were any criminal proceedings against them or

18     anything like that.  But there were no passes, as far as I know.  No

19     passes as such existed, at least I don't know of their existence.  So it

20     was the SIS service which was one of the factors included in and involved

21     in possibly looking at the various people who were military conscripts

22     and civilians and persons against whom criminal proceedings had been

23     taken, so different categories of persons who had to be checked out.

24        Q.   And then were you aware of the process where those persons who

25     were released under this procedure had to then go home, pack up, and

Page 38348

 1     leave their homes and move on to third countries?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that is your, how shall I put it, free

 3     interpretation, a very free interpretation on your part.  Most of the

 4     people stayed on.  Some of them left, however, unfortunately, that was an

 5     area, the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina where regardless of the ethnicities,

 6     many people wished to leave the area, leave the chaos of war.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, we are going to have

 9     a 20 minute break and then we'll have your redirect.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, can I ask to make one

13     observation before counsel begins her redirect.  I've noticed a number of

14     times that throughout the -- at least the cross-examining, I don't know

15     if it was the direct but the witness has a notebook, and he has been

16     making notes and -- about things during the examination and since we were

17     in closed session for at least part of that, I don't know if it's

18     appropriate for the witness to be taking notes of closed session

19     proceedings out of the Tribunal when he leaves.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, usually during

21     testimony, the witness does not make notes.  I didn't see you because you

22     were hidden from me by the monitors, but that is -- that being said,

23     Ms. Alaburic, do you want to have some time for further questions

24     yourself, is that right?

25             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Your Honour.

Page 38349

 1     In view of the fact that a large portion of the cross-examination of my

 2     learned friend the Prosecutor was directed principally at my client,

 3     General Petkovic.  So I would like to have 5 to 7 additional minutes, I

 4     think that's what I would need, just to clarify some details which I

 5     consider were completely erroneously interpreted by the Prosecutor

 6     looking at what was said in documents and showing my client in a

 7     different light.  In the wrong light.  And I think that I have the right

 8     to do so based on the guide-lines given by the Trial Chamber and the

 9     Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  And I'm sure that 5 to 7 minutes will

10     suffice.  I don't mind letting Ms. Nozica go before me.  I would just

11     like those additional 5 to 7 minutes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  We would

13     prefer for you to start, Ms. Alaburic, because this is a witness called

14     by Ms. Nozica, so she has to be the last one to speak.

15             Yes, Witness, do you have anything to?  What did you mean to say?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for giving

17     me to the time the speak.  You cautioned me about the notes.  I can give

18     them to you, photocopy them for you or for anybody else.  They are just a

19     few words I wanted to say when leaving the courtroom, but you can see

20     what I've written here if you would like to take a look.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you dropped a sheet of

22     paper there.

23             Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

24             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Just

25     briefly.  I think we'll be able to clarify some points looking at some

Page 38350

 1     documents and see that Mr. Stringer linked certain allegations and

 2     statements up completely incorrectly, so my additional examination

 3     relates to P6144, that document, which is the UNPROFOR document that we

 4     were discussing a moment ago.

 5                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bandic, you discussed with the Prosecutor.  Now, in the

 7     document mention is made that certain officers of the HVO had been

 8     arrested and some suspended, and the question now is who on that day, and

 9     we are talking about the 25th of October, 1993, could have been arrested

10     in connection with Vares?

11             Now, take a look at the document, we'll look -- 6026 is the

12     document I'd like us to look at and have up on our screens.  P6026, and

13     that's the document that we said had a message in handwriting at the

14     bottom by General Praljak to General Petkovic.  And look at the

15     penultimate paragraph there, please.  I'm going to read it out until we

16     get it up on our screens, this is what it says:

17             "Due to attempts at obstruction, the planned activities I have

18     placed in isolation Mr. Ante Pejcinovic, Zvonko Duznovic, and Ivica

19     Gavran.  The commander of the brigade is in severe state of depression

20     and is not able to carry out his duty, and I attach a letter which I

21     received two days ago from the commander, Emil Harah."

22             And I am going to add now that we've already discussed how Emil

23     Harah was replaced and Mr. Kresimir Bosic was appointed to replace him.

24     Tell me now please, Mr. Bandic, to the best of your knowledge, on 25th of

25     October when a meeting was held with UNPROFOR, were those the only --

Page 38351

 1     was that the only available information about the arrest and isolation of

 2     any officer or member of the HVO staff in the Vares area?

 3        A.   Your Honours, counsel, I saw that report here for the first time.

 4     At that point in time, I did not know what was going on within the HVO,

 5     and I've mentioned a number of times that in Vares the political and

 6     military situation was highly confusing and many details were ones that

 7     we were not aware of at the time.

 8        Q.   And from what you learned later on, can you answer my question,

 9     were they really the only arrests and instances of isolation that had

10     been undertaken up until that time?

11        A.   To the best of my knowledge, it was that this had to do with

12     these particular individuals, and I was interested to see this because

13     there was a SIS member because it was a sort of settling of a political

14     accounts within the HVO, if I might be allowed to say so.  Political

15     account settling, precisely.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Bandic, to the best of your knowledge at that meeting

17     was any mention made of the fact that Ivica Rajic would not -- did allow

18     UNPROFOR to enter Stupni Do?  Do you happen to remember assertions of

19     that kind?

20        A.   I really don't remember that, no.

21        Q.   Very well.  Now, let's look at the next document, P6078 is the

22     number, and it is a letter sent by General Petkovic to Ivica Rajic in

23     Vares.  And in point 3 of that document it says, in the course of

24     tomorrow, regardless of the consequences, allow UNPROFOR to enter Stupni

25     Do, and in brackets it says, please understand that the more this is made

Page 38352

 1     difficult for them, the worse it is for us.

 2             Now, tell me, Mr. Bandic, this is a document dated the 25th of

 3     October, 1993, that is the day that this meeting was organised, so to the

 4     best of your knowledge, Mr. Bandic, was it really the position taken by

 5     General Petkovic, that is to say, if something had actually happened in

 6     Stupni Do that UNPROFOR should be allowed to enter because the truth will

 7     out in due course and everything should be done to assist UNPROFOR; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Counsel, I never saw this order, or rather this piece of

10     information, but it was the general attitude taken by General Petkovic.

11        Q.   Look at point 1 of that same document.  General Petkovic is

12     asking Ivica Rajic to supply him with the right information, correct

13     information about Stupni Do, the number of Muslim soldiers killed, and

14     the number of civilians killed, and from this, I am able to conclude that

15     on that day, General Petkovic, did not have information about these

16     soldiers killed, belonging to the BH Army and the civilians who were

17     killed in Stupni Do.  Tell me, Mr. Bandic, is my conclusion correct?

18        A.   Yes, and it's logical from this letter of General Petkovic's.

19        Q.   Let's look at the next document now, please.  P6076.  Of that

20     same day, the 25th of October.  Ivica Rajic is sending a short note about

21     the situation in Stupni Do, and he says in the second paragraph, The

22     correct accuracy of this information can be checked out by members of the

23     UN because access to Stupni Do village by military observers is

24     permitted.

25             Now, in this courtroom we had witnesses who confirmed that the --

Page 38353

 1     on that day an UNPROFOR representative did indeed enter Stupni Do,

 2     escorted by Mr. Ivica Rajic, who stayed up at the road.  He didn't go

 3     down to the village itself.  Now, tell me to the best of your knowledge,

 4     is that correct -- is it correct that on the basis of this permission

 5     given by General Petkovic, that UNPROFOR was really able to enter Stupni

 6     Do and to start the investigation?

 7        A.   Your Honours, counsel, I don't know.  I'm not aware of General

 8     Petkovic issuing that order.  I don't know about that particular detail.

 9        Q.   Now look at the continuation and conclusion of this UNPROFOR

10     document in which your discussion was recorded as to the events in Stupni

11     Do.  And this UNPROFOR officer says Petkovic gave written permission to

12     UNPROFOR to go to Stupni Do because, as he said, there's no purpose in

13     hiding what had happened.  Now, tell me, Mr. Bandic, to the best of your

14     knowledge, this position by General Petkovic, did he express that in his

15     communication with representatives of the international community?

16        A.   Let me say once again, I don't remember the details, but that was

17     General Petkovic's general stand and position.  He said that there was

18     nothing to hide, nothing should be hidden.

19             MS. ALABURIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for

20     allowing that additional time to re-examine.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I recall that the

22     Trial Chamber granted this time because it turned out that during

23     cross-examination General Petkovic was the one that was most

24     incriminated, therefore exceptionally we granted this possibility for you

25     to ask additional questions.

Page 38354

 1             Ms. Nozica, you may now proceed for your redirect since this is

 2     your witness.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bandic, I'd just like us to clarify certain

 6     things with respect to the cross-examination conducted by both the

 7     Prosecutor and the other Defence teams.  And to start off with, and I

 8     hope we'll get through this quickly and efficiently.  We were shown a

 9     document in the pink binder that you have in front of you.  It's the

10     second document there.  There's no need to look at the first document.

11     It is 4D1317.  And I'd just like to remind you that Ms. Alaburic

12     questioned you about the be obligations under Article 25 of the Law on

13     Taking Over the Law on Criminal Proceedings which is a document, for the

14     transcript number P00592.  And you have there several articles referring

15     to this particular document, and also an article which relates to the

16     duties of the organs of the interior in view of the criminal code taken

17     over from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time.

18             Now, we are going to make a different comparison in order to

19     clarify what the authorised persons of the security organs of the armed

20     forces, what they should do, what their duties were when it came to

21     applying the criminal code of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And in order to do

22     that, look at Article 25 first, please, which is to be found on page 2.

23     In Article 25, just to remind ourselves, it says, The duties and

24     authorisations specified by the Law on Criminal Proceedings is performed

25     instead of, and then it says, the organs of the interior, the authorised

Page 38355

 1     personages of the security organs of the armed forces -- or authorised

 2     persons for the organs of security, the armed forces shall preform the

 3     duties and exercise the authority of organs of Internal Affairs.

 4             Now, let's see what the organs of the Internal Affairs are.

 5             Yes, thank you for warning me, I will do my best to speak slower.

 6     Let's look and see what the authorisation and authority was of the organs

 7     of Internal Affairs when it came to crimes, criminal acts, and in order

 8     to do so let's look at Article 151 which is on that same page, and let's

 9     look at paragraph 1.  Para 1 of the article.  It says:

10             "If there are grounds to suspect that a criminal act that is

11     prosecuted ex officio has been committed, the law enforcement agencies

12     must take all the steps necessary to locate the perpetrator of the

13     criminal act -- to prevent to locate the perpetrator of the criminal act,

14     to prevent the perpetrator or [indiscernible] from hiding or fleeing, to

15     direct and preserve the traces of the criminal act, and objects which

16     might serve as evidence, and to gather all information which might be of

17     use to conduct criminal proceedings."

18             Mr. Bandic, you during the examination-in-chief in response to a

19     question Mr. Judge Antonetti said, when asked who was supposed to take

20     measures and steps to initiate legal proceedings against perpetrators,

21     you said the commander of the military unit.  Now, let's see whether they

22     were identical tasks set out in Article 151 of the criminal code, whether

23     they are identical to the tasks that were given to the commander of the

24     military unit, and in order to do that, go to the previous page of this

25     document, please, and we are talking about Article 27 now, let's look at

Page 38356

 1     that, of the Decree on Military Districts Courts In the Territory of the

 2     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, HZ-HB, During the War, or in a Time

 3     of Imminent Threat of War.

 4             And this is a P document, 592 is its number.  It says:

 5             "The commander of a military units and of a military institution

 6     must take all necessary measures to prevent the perpetrator of a crime,

 7     under official Prosecution, from hiding or escaping, and must attempt to

 8     preserve all traces of the criminal act and all objects that may serve as

 9     evidence.  He must also obtain all information which could be useful for

10     initiating criminal proceedings."

11             So if we compare those two articles, isn't it obvious,

12     Mr. Bandic, that it was in fact the commander of the military unit who

13     was given authorisation or the obligation, not the authorisation but

14     obligation, to undertake those steps and measures which according to the

15     criminal code should have been taken by the organ of Internal Affairs?

16        A.   That's right.  That is correct.

17        Q.   Very well.  Could you please look at the next document in the

18     binder, 2D940.  During the cross-examination, you were asked several

19     times -- or, rather, a great deal of time was used in dealing with

20     whether there was SIS at the Main Staff or not.  Could we please look at

21     this document once again.  I did show it during the direct examination.

22     The date is the 8th of October, 1993.  This is information that was

23     provided at the request of Mr. Petkovic.  The reference number here is

24     Mr. Petkovic's --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, do not display this

Page 38357

 1     document outside the courtroom.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I do apologise, Your

 3     Honour.  I quite simply forgot of that detail -- I forgot about that

 4     detail which is really important.

 5        Q.   So this is a response to document P, I'm just going to say what

 6     it is, 5614.  And that can be seen on the basis of the delivery number,

 7     not to go into that again, and at the end of the document it says, Yet

 8     again more detailed information you can receive from our officials who

 9     are carrying out their duties at the Main Staff.

10             Was it "pri" or was it "u."  That is what was discussed, what

11     preposition was used there.  It seemed obvious to the person receiving

12     this information that there were officials of this kind at the Main

13     Staff?

14        A.   That's correct.  If I may just add something.

15        Q.   Please, go ahead.

16        A.   I know it was in 1994, that is to say, many things had already

17     settled in or rather, fortunately, there were no longer any conflicts

18     between the Croats and Bosniaks in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I would meet

19     Mr. Coric every now and then and I asked him what things were like at the

20     Main Staff.  He said to me, Now, it's a different story.  I am a member

21     of the collegium and often information is provided at the collegium, and

22     I was glad to hear that.  In a way, I knew these people, the situation,

23     and in a way -- in a way I welcomed this.  I was very glad to hear that.

24     But this is the time after the war, of course, and many things finally

25     fell into place.

Page 38358

 1        Q.   Mr. Bandic, what I'm interested in here, primarily, is the date

 2     of this document.  I know that you did speak about this and you wanted to

 3     give an answer to that when you were asked by Mr. Praljak, I think.  But

 4     this document shows that on the 8th of October, 1993, Mr. Lucic says

 5     explicitly, ask -- Ask our officials who are carrying out their duties at

 6     the Main Staff?

 7        A.   That's right, that's right.  Someone from our ranks was there.  I

 8     don't know who exactly.

 9        Q.   All right.  Mr. Bandic, you were asked about document 7035

10     extensively, so could you please have a look at it again.  You were

11     questioned about the investigations that were conducted by the SIS

12     administration.  So now I would like to ask you to explain to the

13     Honourable Trial Chamber where this information came from, the

14     information contained in this document.  With regard to all these cases,

15     was it the SIS administration that was carrying out the investigation or

16     did you get the information some other way?  Have you found the document?

17     It should be the next one?

18        A.   It is a document where Lucic is sending it to Mr. Tudjman.

19        Q.   Yes.  My question is whether the administration of SIS was --

20     sorry.  My question is whether it was the SIS administration that

21     conducted investigations with regard to these cases, or did you come

22     across this information some other way; could you please explain?

23        A.   The SIS administration did not conduct an investigation.  This is

24     a compilation of several sources from units and centres.  This is

25     compiled information about what was going on in the HVO at that time.

Page 38359

 1     For example, if you allow me just to add something, the administration

 2     could not file criminal reports on the basis of intelligence only.

 3        Q.   Yes, that was supposed to be my next question.  What is the name

 4     of the result that you get in your intelligence work, and can that be

 5     used as grounds for filing a criminal report or, say, an additional piece

 6     of information if criminal charges are brought?

 7        A.   It cannot be a basis for criminal charges.  It is intelligence

 8     information that cannot be a basis for a criminal complaint.  It can only

 9     be used in the further proceedings.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, in relation to the work of the SIS

11     administration, yesterday, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you at one

12     point in time whether the SIS were supposed to investigate what happened

13     in Stupni Do.  Or, rather, whether you were supposed to go to the Bobovac

14     Brigade and look at documents, orders that are in their binders.  Did you

15     have the authority to do that?

16             Your answer, Mr. Bandic, was that is part of the work of SIS, and

17     approximately a month after the event in Stupni Do, I went to the area

18     that was mentioned and so on and so forth.

19             I would be interested in this specifically.  I mean, as a SIS

20     official, not as an official from the SIS administration, but also not an

21     official in the Main Staff, can a SIS official come to any brigade and

22     ask for orders and documents of that brigade, to have insight into these

23     documents?

24        A.   I could not ask for that, and I could not behave that way.  There

25     was a hierarchy, after all, that had to be observed.  I was not in a

Page 38360

 1     position to do that.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Now we are going to move on to a few document that is

 3     were shown to you by the Prosecutor.  Today, you have the next document,

 4     that is an order of Mr. Siljeg, P3227 is the number.  The 6th of July,

 5     Mr. Siljeg, in this order, asks that immediately through the SIS, the

 6     operative zone, and the administration of the Defence Department, all

 7     Muslim detainees should -- I'm going show you the next document now,

 8     P4218 [as interpreted].

 9             That is a letter from Mr. Siljeg dated the 13th of July, 1993.  I

10     would like it to remind you that the Prosecutor asked you whether the SIS

11     administration, together with the military police, took these activities

12     in relation to the transfer of the prisoners.  I am showing this document

13     to you, it is going to be a bit difficult to read but there's a

14     translation.  Paragraph 13, it's Mr. Siljeg's communication.

15             He says:  "We sought an agreement in view of dislocating Muslims,

16     military conscripts, from Rama --"

17             Thank you for telling me.  The transcript records the wrong

18     number.  The number is P3418.  We will wait for a moment for it to appear

19     in e-court.  Have you found it?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  It's quite illegible.

21        Q.   I'll read it.  We have it here now.  So on page 2, it is

22     paragraph 13, it's an exhibit, this document, is:

23             "We asked for an answer for the dislocation of Muslims from Rama

24     of Herzegovina because of the danger of retaliation of our people but

25     there was no answer until we brought them at our own initiative to

Page 38361

 1     Ljubuski."

 2             We see here from Mr. Siljeg himself that they, I don't know if he

 3     is -- I don't know who he is referring to, that they carry this out,

 4     although it was requested in the previous document this be done by the

 5     SIS of the brigade, and the administration of the SIS from the Defence

 6     Department.  Is that what seems to be correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  I've already said that, Madam, but I'm really not familiar

 8     with the circumstances involved in respect of what Mr. Siljeg was talking

 9     about.

10        Q.   Yes.  All right.  I just wanted to show this because it was

11     brought up during the cross-examination.  It was in the Prosecutor's

12     binder, but it wasn't shown to you, this document, I mean.

13             I would now like to clarify certain matters for you, Mr. Bandic,

14     and for the honourable judges.  P3630.  P3630, that is the note where

15     your name is mentioned.  What I would particularly like to draw your

16     attention to is that it is obvious that there is no signature and stamp

17     or stamp on the document; is that right.

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   We have seen here notes without a signature, without a stamp, but

20     we have seen such documents before, but there is no delivery number on

21     this document; is that right?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, counsel.  I apologise for the

24     intervention, but I think for this we should clarify because there is a

25     stamp that is in the upper right-hand corner of the document which shows

Page 38362

 1     that it came from the HVO archives, made available to the Prosecution by

 2     the Croatian government in Zagreb.  So I know that counsel's point is

 3     that there's not the HVO stamp that's found at the end of the document,

 4     but just for the record I think it's useful to make that distinction.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now on the record, please

 6     proceed, Ms. Nozica.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I do have to respond to

 8     what my colleague said.  I'm now going to say that -- or, rather, I'm not

 9     [Realtime transcript read in error "now"] going to prove here that this

10     is a document that was compiled by the Prosecutor, whoever compiled it

11     will be established ultimately, and the Judges will assess the matter.

12     So let me continue --

13             MR. STRINGER:  I think maybe we should clarify the transcript

14     which reads -- the transcript indicates that counsel just said that she

15     was going to say "... or, rather, now I'm going to prove here that this

16     is a document that was compiled by the Prosecutor."

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  What was said was "not,"

18     I'm not going to prove here.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Fortunately, my learned friend, I

20     have at least 15 witnesses here who heard what I said.  I think that

21     whoever understands my language can say that we are not trying to imply

22     that the OTP compiled this, but it will be for the Judges to assess

23     whether this was a document that was done in any way apart from the

24     regular procedure, subsequently, or at any other point, and for whatever

25     purposes.

Page 38363

 1        Q.   Now, I'm going to show you a series of documents of this author.

 2     I know that you never had to come across them, but I am showing you all

 3     of these documents so that you would see the difference between this

 4     document and all the other documents that the Prosecutor has.  The

 5     Prosecutor has 72 documents by this author.  These that were placed in

 6     your binder, with the exception of the yellow one, which got in

 7     mistakenly, are all exhibits, and they are all different from this

 8     document.  Now, I'm going to ask you to look at what the difference is.

 9     Please look at the next document.  P2607.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right.  There is a stamp here and Mr. Kraljevic's signature,

12     but I insist on the following.  There is a delivery number here, right?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   Please look at the next document.  P2889.  This document also has

15     a stamp signature and a delivery number; isn't that right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   Please look at the next document, that is P2961.  This document

18     also has a stamped signature and a delivery number; is that right, sir?

19        A.   Yes, that's obvious, evident.

20        Q.   Please look at the next document, that is P4340.  P4340.  That is

21     yet another document that does not have a stamp or a signature, but it

22     does have a delivery number, right, of the same author?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.

24        Q.   Please let's look at the next document, that is P05214.  This is

25     a document which has a stamp, signature, and the compulsory delivery

Page 38364

 1     numbers; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.

 3        Q.   Let's look at the next document, that is P6349.  That is also a

 4     document that was signed by the same author, and it does have a delivery

 5     number.

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   And the last one in my binder is P6393.  It also has -- let me

 8     just have a look, please, it has a signature, a stamp, and delivery

 9     number right?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Mr. Bandic, I think this is exceptionally important because of

12     what you said and because of the attempt made to discredit you, although

13     I know that this time is being taken off my Defence time, but I think

14     this is very important because it has to do with a very grave

15     implication.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I would like to read out to the

17     Honourable Trial Chamber all the documents and their numbers that the

18     Prosecutor has on his 65 ter list that are not exhibits and they are from

19     this author.  These are all the Prosecutor's documents from the 65 ter

20     list, and they all have a delivery number.  If they do not have a

21     signature or a stamp, they have a delivery number.  As opposed to

22     document 3630.  These are documents P1552, P2167, 2412, 2607, 2889, 2961,

23     3422, 3439, 3448, 3469, 3758, 4318, 4319, 4320, 4323, 4324, 4326, 4327,

24     4328, 4329, 4332, 4334, 4336, 4337, 4338, 4345, 4349, 4350, 4351, 4353,

25     4354, 4355, 4356, 4357, 4359, 4360, and I don't think there's any need to

Page 38365

 1     go on, there are 35 more.  (redacted)

 2     (redacted), and I really don't think

 3     there's any need to waste any more time on that.

 4             I just have one more clarification to make and for that may we go

 5     into private session because it was something that was discussed in

 6     private session during the cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38366











11 Page 38366 redacted. Private session.















Page 38367

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as a rule, the witness

13     don't say anything.  If you would just like to thank us, then you may

14     take the floor.  What is it that you would like to say?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour,

16     Mr. President.  I had written down a few lines because we, in the

17     diplomatic service, would like to stick to protocol and do things by the

18     book, and it was my wish in the end to say thank you to you all, to thank

19     you for your patience and understanding.  This was my first experience,

20     and this year I'm -- will be 50, otherwise in everything else I'm a

21     veteran, as I am in Karate, but I'd just like to thank everybody once

22     again, the Trial Chamber and for all your understanding and patience.  I

23     would like to wish you every success and good health because as we know

24     all those things are linked up.

25             Now, I'm going back to my job, to my affairs, and in this

Page 38368

 1     notebook, among other things, on page 1 there's a brief note that I wrote

 2     down because on Friday when I was ready, when I was preparing to come

 3     here, I went to see the president of the republic because the foreign

 4     minister of Hungary was on a state visit, a lady, so I wrote something

 5     down.  And you'll see that on this very day my two governments, the

 6     government of the republic of the Croatia and the government of the

 7     republic of Hungary will have a joint meeting in Budapest and for us in

 8     diplomatic circles, and for me as the ambassador, this is a very

 9     important point in my career.  It very rarely happens to an ambassador.

10     So I do different things and I'm very proud to be working where two

11     nations cooperate so well together.  Once again, thank you, and I

12     apologise if I was not always clear and I wish you all all the best.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, on behalf of

14     my colleagues, I thank you for having come to testify at the request of

15     Mr. Stojic and Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel.  I wish you a safe journey

16     home, and I wish you well in your diplomatic endeavours.

17             So I believe we have a witness coming next week.  I believe that

18     is not a problem.  We shall reconvene on Monday at quarter past 2.00.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd of March 2009,

21                           at 2.15 p.m.