Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38369

 1                           Monday, 23 March 2009 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Pusic not present]

 5                           [The accused Coric not present]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-74-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

13             Today is Monday.  I would like to greet the accused who are

14     present in the courtroom, the attorneys, the representatives of the OTP,

15     as well as all the people assisting us in the courtroom.

16             I shall first of all give the floor to our registrar who has five

17     IC numbers to give us.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Some parties have

19     submitted lists of documents to be tendered through Witness Bandic, Ivan.

20     The list submitted by 2D shall be given Exhibit IC955.  The list

21     committed by 3D shall be given Exhibit IC956, the list submitted by 4D

22     shall be given Exhibit IC957, the list committed by 5D shall be given

23     Exhibit IC958, and the list submitted by the Prosecution shall be given

24     Exhibit IC959.  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have two housekeeping matters

Page 38370

 1     to inform you about.  First of all, on the 24th of March, i.e., tomorrow,

 2     there is a Plenary Session that starts at 12.30 and runs until half past

 3     2.00.  As far as I'm concerned, and this concerns my colleagues also, we

 4     wish to attend this Plenary Session which starts tomorrow at 12.30.

 5             Towards the end of the week, we have been advised by the Dutch

 6     authorities that on the 31st of March a conference on Afghanistan is to

 7     be held in The Hague, so in light of security issues relating to the

 8     attendees, there will be no hearing next Tuesday on the 31st of March.

 9             On looking at the schedule, I realise that Milos Mario was

10     planned for two hours, so if everyone sticks to his or her time we will

11     be able to get Milos Mario on Monday, the 30th of March, and finish with

12     this witness on the 1st of April.  The witness will therefore have to

13     wait for 24 hours.

14             On the 1st and 2nd of April, we have two witnesses who are

15     scheduled who are due to testify for an hour.  So there will be no

16     hearing on the 31st of March, because the whole area around the World

17     Forum will be cordoned off for security reasons.  So we will not be able

18     to get inside the Tribunal.  This is what I wanted to share with you.

19             Mr. Stringer, I believe you have something to tell us.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, and good afternoon, Mr. President, thank you.

21     Good afternoon to Your Honours, counsel.

22             Mr. President, I need to make a couple of comments for the Trial

23     Chamber and for the Defence as well with respect to my

24     cross-examination -- or part of my cross-examination last week of Ivan

25     Bandic, and I want to draw the Trial Chamber's attention to an exhibit

Page 38371

 1     that I used at the beginning of my cross-examination, P03630.  This was

 2     the document that was used insofar as it related to a transfer of someone

 3     named Kasim Karhimanovic from Dubrovnik to Neum in July of 1993 and then

 4     to Dretelj; whereas, the document indicated he was beaten to death.  And

 5     as -- as Your Honours may recall, there was a reference to the witness,

 6     Mr. Bandic, that I put to him in order to challenge his credibility at

 7     the time.  The document had been admitted into evidence in this case in

 8     September of 2007.  It was used during the direct examination of Witness

 9     DD earlier in February of 2007.

10             Mr. President, before I decided to use the document in my

11     cross-examination of Mr. Bandic, I asked that we do a little more

12     investigation about the document on the issue of Mr. Karhimanovic,

13     because I wanted to be assured that it was -- would be appropriate to put

14     to Mr. Bandic given the gravity of the incident that is referred to

15     there, and so we did do some additional looking into that document before

16     we used it on the cross-examination, and we found in fact that there was

17     documentation here within the Office of the Prosecutor that related to

18     Mr. Karhimanovic as having been a member of the army of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina, that he'd been transferred down to the Split logistics

20     centre, and that he went missing in March of 1993.

21             We also obtained a witness statement from 1994, that was given in

22     1994, by one of the sons of Mr. Karhimanovic who also talked about his

23     father having been ordered to report to the police station in Dubrovnik

24     in July 1993 and then was taken away and had never been seen again.

25             So after we got that additional information, I elected to use the

Page 38372

 1     document on cross-examination of Mr. Banic.  And then based on comments

 2     that Mr. Bandic made the following morning when he returned to testify,

 3     and then also some comments made by Mr. Coric when he intervened at a

 4     later point during Mr. Bandic's testimony, we renewed our efforts and did

 5     additional information -- or additional investigation into the document.

 6             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, it's all very interesting, and I do

 7     apologise profusely to my learned friend, perhaps before we get even more

 8     into the detail and the backgrounds of all these efforts made by the

 9     Prosecution, if we can have some indication as to what it is that my

10     learned friend is seeking, and then, of course, the explanation can be

11     understood.  But I wonder if we could cut to the chase and find out what

12     is it he's asking for at this moment in time and that would allow us to

13     know whether or not this history as to the witness who was released last

14     week, all of this is relevant or not.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, let Mr. Stringer

16     finish.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We continued to

19     investigate.  Mr. Coric had indicated that he thought the document had

20     been used by the Prosecution in an interview.  He was right.  It turned

21     out the document had been used by the Prosecution in a suspect interview

22     of Mr. Kraljevic who was one of the purported authors of the document.

23     And essentially, we determined that the document had been obtained by the

24     Office of the Prosecution from the HVO archive in Zagreb on two different

25     occasions and that this resulted in the document being given two

Page 38373

 1     different ERN numbers for processing.

 2             We determined that one version of the document was shown to

 3     Mr. Kraljevic during a suspect interview that was conducted by the Office

 4     of the Prosecutor on the 16th of November, 2004, and unfortunately that

 5     version had the different ERN number from the version that we have marked

 6     as Exhibit P3630, and that's why we didn't pick up the document earlier

 7     as having been used in the Kraljevic suspect interview when we did our

 8     checks beforehand.

 9             During the suspect interview, Mr. Kraljevic said this about the

10     document, he said quote -- I'm quoting:

11             "There was not Buntic's or my stamp."

12             The court may recall that Mr. Buntic as one of the purported

13     authors of the document.

14             And then Kraljevic continued:

15             "Then certain things here are exaggerated and certain persons

16     protecting and there are false information."

17             And then he continues.  He says:

18             "This was planted by the security service."

19             And as I said, because the version that he was looking at had the

20     different ERN number, even though it's the same document, we did not

21     become aware of that prior to the cross-examination of Mr. Bandic.  I

22     found out this just as his examination was ending on Thursday.

23             So although there is in our view substantial corroboration of

24     much of the information that's contained in 3630, particularly or

25     especially related to the arrest and the detention of Mr. Karhimanovic at

Page 38374

 1     Dretelj in July of 1993, we don't have documents that corroborate any

 2     role of Mr. Bandic in requesting that Mr. Karhimanovic be brought to

 3     Bosnia from Croatia, and for that reason, in light of the statement by

 4     Mr. Kraljevic about the document and in light of the gravity of the

 5     allegation regarding Mr. Bandic's alleged involvement in the incident,

 6     had I been aware of Mr. Kraljevic's statement in advance, I would not

 7     have used the document in my cross-examination of Mr. Bandic and would

 8     not have put that issue to him.

 9             And so as a result of this, the Prosecution would make two

10     proposals to the Trial Chamber.  First of all, we propose to submit to

11     the Trial Chamber, and obviously copies to the parties as well, all of

12     the information, the additional information and documentation that we

13     obtained or that we identified in our checking of the document in

14     order -- and including the excerpt, the relevant excerpt of the suspect

15     interview of Mr. Kraljevic so that all of that information can be put

16     before the Trial Chamber so that it can consider all of that in its

17     assessment of the weight to be given to Exhibit P3630.

18             We'd also propose, Mr. President, that in assessing the

19     credibility of the witness, Mr. Bandic, that the Trial Chamber should not

20     consider the reference to him that is contained in Exhibit 3630; that is

21     to say, that while it may wish to consider Exhibit 3630 as relevant to

22     other issues in the case, the Prosecution proposes that the Trial Chamber

23     disregard Exhibit P03630 in determining the credibility of Mr. Bandic as

24     a witness.

25             So I apologise for the length of my remarks, Mr. President, but

Page 38375

 1     we wanted to bring this issue to the Trial Chamber's attention.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan.

 4             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Khan, you see, there's no

 6     use in getting to your feet too quickly.  Always wait for the other

 7     people to finish.

 8             MR. KHAN:  Well, Your Honours, yes and no.  This application

 9     could quite easily have been properly framed.  It is a Prosecution

10     application, in effect, under Rule 68, to discharge its functions in

11     relation to exculpatory evidence or to at least clarify the record, and

12     I'm very grateful to my learned friend acting with diligence and complete

13     probity in bringing this Your Honours' attention.

14             Your Honours, I've seen the proposal of my learned friend.  It

15     seems to be the sensible way of proceeding in light of the information

16     that has come to light or that the Prosecution has become cognisant of

17     since the witness concluded his evidence, but the only reason I did rise

18     earlier is it's always useful when a narrative commences to know where

19     it's going to finish, and this could all have been -- this was, of

20     course, an application in some sense at least under Rule 68, and I'm

21     grateful to my learned friend and of course the Prosecution as always.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall turn to my colleagues.

23             MR. STRINGER:  [Overlapping speakers] I apologise.  It's not a

24     Rule 68 application.  In -- the suspect interview of Mr. Kraljevic was

25     disclosed to the Defence previously.  So the information about the

Page 38376

 1     exhibit, Mr. Kraljevic's statement about it, was disclosed previously.

 2     So it's something that we just wished to bring to the Trial Chamber's

 3     attention nonetheless.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, the Bench accepts

 6     that you give us all the evidence you have discussed during your

 7     arguments.  We will therefore be able to assess the probative value of

 8     the document in question.

 9             Mr. Usher, could you bring the witness into the courtroom,

10     please.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may add a consideration, Mr. Stringer.  I

12     do not think that this already indicates that we admit this documentation

13     as evidence.  You would have -- in case you would want that to -- to make

14     an application to that effect.  We'll just take it as information at the

15     time being.

16             MR. STRINGER:  I think that on this, Mr. President, we're in the

17     Trial Chamber's hands.  The Defence can look at the documentation, they

18     can express their views, and the Trial Chamber can accept it or not as it

19     wishes.

20             MR. KARNAVAS:  Your Honour, I just wanted to thank the

21     Prosecutor, and I believe that this is a good show of the efforts that

22     were made in this particular case, and we commend the Prosecution, in

23     particular Mr. Stringer, for his efforts.  Thank you.

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd just like to say

25     on behalf of the Petkovic Defence that I agree to what Mr. Karnavas has

Page 38377

 1     said, and I consider that this is an exceptionally fair gesture on the

 2     part of the Prosecutor.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           WITNESS:  ANDJELKO MAKAR

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you stand,

 7     please.  Please give me your first name, last name, and date of birth,

 8     please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Andjelko Makar.  My date

10     of birth is the 22nd of May, 1948.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

12     occupation?  What job do you have at the moment?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do different things, but I'm a

14     retired general otherwise.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, have you already

16     testified before court of law, whether it be domestic or international on

17     those facts that unfolded in the former Yugoslavia, or are you testifying

18     for the first time today?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, this is

20     the first time I'm testifying to these facts, but I have testified in

21     other cases before different courts.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you mean, a court in

23     Bosnia, in Croatia, in Serbia?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Different courts.  Municipal

25     courts, cantonal courts, and the Supreme Court and Constitutional Court

Page 38378

 1     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I was at all those courts.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

 3     declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some information I'd like to

 9     give you which I'm sure has been imparted to you by Ms. Nozica over the

10     weekend.  You will have to answer those questions that will be put to you

11     by Ms. Nozica.  Ms. Nozica is the Defence counsel of Mr. Stojic only, and

12     therefore the other Defence counsel may put questions to you also as part

13     of their cross-examination.

14             The Prosecutor, who is on your right-hand side, I believe it will

15     be Ms. West, will also questions to you as part of their

16     cross-examination.

17             The Bench before you may put questions to you also.  Generally,

18     we put questions based on the documents we have before us.  I'm sure that

19     Ms. Nozica and/or the Prosecutor will show you a number of documents.  So

20     please be as accurate as you possibly can when you answer this question.

21     I'm sure as a former general that you will answer those questions in a

22     cursory and accurate manner.

23             Don't hesitate to have a question rephrased if you don't

24     understand it.  We have 20-minute breaks every hour and a half, but if at

25     any point in time you wish to have a short break, please don't hesitate

Page 38379

 1     to let us know and raise your hand.

 2             You have taken the oath a few moments ago.  Therefore, you are no

 3     longer a witness of one of the parties.  You are now a witness of the

 4     court, which means that you may not have any contact anymore whatsoever

 5     with Mr. Stojic's Defence counsel.

 6             Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good afternoon, Your

 8     Honours.  Good afternoon to everybody else in the courtroom.

 9                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] And good afternoon to you, Mr. Makar.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, before I start with my questions, I'm going to give

13     basic information from your CV, which are important for this testimony of

14     yours.

15             Mr. Makar, you went to the military academy for the armed forces

16     of the JNA in Belgrade from 1966 -- I apologise, 1967 to 1971.

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   From 1971 until 1985, you were an active officer in the Yugoslav

19     People's Army.

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   You left the Yugoslav People's Army on the 13th of May, 1992, by

22     reporting to the district staff of the Territorial Defence of Tuzla where

23     you were appointed chief of communications in the staff; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In September 1992, after the 2nd Corps of the BH army was

Page 38380

 1     established in Tuzla, you were the assistant -- performed the function of

 2     assistant Chief of Staff for operations and training; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   On the 18th of July, 1993, you were appointed Chief of Staff of

 5     the 2nd Corps; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.  Correct.

 7        Q.   And you remained in that post until the 25th of December, 1994,

 8     when you were appointed the deputy commander of the 2nd Corps?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And you performed different functions within the army of the

11     Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you did so until the 31st of March,

12     2000, when you retired.

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Mr. Makar, I'm going to ask you some introductory questions about

15     how the war in Tuzla began, where Tuzla is located, how the defence was

16     organise in the Tuzla region, so general facts to show where you come

17     from and what happened in that area during the war?

18             Now, could you please explain to the Trial Chamber when the

19     conflict started in the Tuzla area and who provoked them?

20        A.   Your Honours, the conflicts in the Tuzla area started soon after

21     a referendum that was held with respect to the independence of the State

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, more specifically, in the broader area of the

23     Tuzla district.  The conflicts began on the 8th of March with an attack

24     by the Yugoslav People's Army and Serbian paramilitaries on Zvornik.

25        Q.   Mr. Makar, these conflicts with the JNA and the paramilitary

Page 38381

 1     Serbian forces, how long did they go on for in the Tuzla area?

 2        A.   I would like to make a correction.  The Yugoslav Army.  It was no

 3     longer the Yugoslav People's Army, so just the Yugoslav Army, and

 4     conflicts in the area went on until the end of the war or, let's say, the

 5     signing of the Dayton Accords.

 6        Q.   Mr. Makar, and how was the defence of the Tuzla area organised

 7     after the first clashes and conflicts or immediately prior to them

 8     breaking out?

 9        A.   The Your Honours, the defence of the Tuzla region was organised

10     in the District Staff of the Territorial Defence, and under their command

11     were 13 Territorial Defence Staffs of the municipalities.  At the

12     beginning, smaller units of the Territorial Defence were formed, and

13     later on they grew into bigger units so that already in May and June of

14     1992 we had brigades.  Later on, to cut the story short, at the end of

15     1992, in September, the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina took a decision

16     to establish five corps.  One of those corps was the corps in Tuzla,

17     which was the 2nd Corps, and with the formation of the corps all the

18     forces of the Territorial Defence, as well as the HVO forces in the area,

19     were included and were subordinate to the corps.

20             At the time, we had eight operative groups in the corps, and let

21     me explain, Your Honours.  An operative group is a military formation of

22     the rank of a division, and those eight operative groups, of which I'd

23     just like to mention Operative Group 1, had the 107th HVO Brigade and the

24     108th HVO Brigade and the 21st Brigade of the BH army.  They all came

25     under that Operative Group 1.

Page 38382

 1             Yes, I will do my best to slow down.

 2             Operative Group 5, Tuzla, had the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Tuzla Brigade of

 3     the BH army within its ranks, and the 115th Brigade of the Croatian

 4     Defence Council.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Two short follow-up questions.

 6     On the 8th of March, 1992, where were you, you yourself?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of March, 1992, I was in

 8     Tuzla, and it was the 17th Corps of the Yugoslav Army at the time.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second follow-up question:  If

10     I understand correctly, the fifth group in Tuzla, in September 1992,

11     brings together the 115th Brigade of the HVO and part of a brigade of

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, Judge, you're

14     quite right.  There were three brigades of the BH army and one brigade,

15     the 115th, of the HVO.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that from March to

17     September 1992, in Sarajevo, President Izetbegovic knows that in Tuzla

18     there is an armed force that is made up of two elements, the HVO and the

19     brigade of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, to clarify, you have just said that Operative Group 5

24     in Tuzla had within its composition three brigades of the army of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina and one HVO Brigade.

Page 38383

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   I'd like to go back for a moment to Operative Group 1.  You

 3     mentioned the 107th, which was also an HVO brigade.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You mentioned the 107th and 108th Brigades of the HVO.  Would you

 6     tell us where these brigades were from so that we could have a clearer

 7     picture later on when we speak about them?

 8        A.   Your Honour, the 107th Brigade of the HVO was established on the

 9     territory of a town called Gradacac.  When it was formed, it was called

10     the MHVO, which means the Muslim Croatian Defence Council.  The 108th

11     Brigade of the HVO was established on the territory of Brcko, in the area

12     of the town of Brcko.

13        Q.   Mr. Makar, were there other operative groups which included HVO

14     brigades when the 2nd Corps was formed?

15        A.   Your Honour, to continue where I left off, after Operative Group

16     5 we also had Operative Group 7 which was on the territory of the

17     municipalities of Maglaj, Tesanj, Zepce, and that Operative Group

18     included the 201st, the 202nd, the 203rd, and the 204th brigades of the

19     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the 110th Brigade of the HVO which was

20     also known as the Usora Brigade.

21             To go back for a moment, Operative Group 2 on the territory of

22     Gracanica-Doboj also had within its composition a brigade of the BH Army

23     and the 109th HVO Brigade.

24        Q.   Mr. Makar, please explain to Their Honours how the HVO was

25     established in the Tuzla area?

Page 38384

 1        A.   The HVO on the territory of Tuzla was established on a broad

 2     territory as a regional organisation sometime in June 1992.

 3        Q.   And tell me, please, after this regional organisation which

 4     you've just mentioned, was a Croatian Community established in the Tuzla

 5     area and when, approximately?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I know that for certain.  At the head of this

 7     regional political organisation of the HVO was Mr. Pero Vasilj, whom I

 8     knew personally, and later on, sometime around September, I think, on the

 9     territory of the municipalities of Tuzla, Zivinice, Banovici, and Lukavac

10     a Croatian Community called Soli was established headed by Mr. Zeljko

11     Pestic who was its president.

12             This Croatian Community of Soli joined the Croatian Community of

13     Herceg-Bosna soon afterwards, sometime in October or November 1992, to

14     the best of my knowledge.

15        Q.   Mr. --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I'm very much

17     interested in the creation of the Croatian Community of Soli who --

18     which, according to you, joined the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

19     And to your knowledge, those people getting together, what were their

20     motives?  Was that because they were given an order to get together, or

21     was it because they felt themselves that given the situation, they had to

22     get together?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you that I

24     knew personally most of the people who established this Croatian Defence

25     Council, as it first was called, and then the Soli community.  They were

Page 38385

 1     not following somebody's orders.  It was because of their assessment of

 2     the situation and its further development that they felt they should get

 3     together in order to protect the interests of the people living in the

 4     area, not just Croats but also Muslims and others, because I know for

 5     certain that when the HVO was established, representatives of other

 6     parties participated in that, not just of the HDZ, and also people who

 7     were not members of any party.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Makar, can you tell me, please -- well, you've just told us

10     about the establishment of the Croatian Community of Soli.  Do you know

11     what happened to the regional HVO community which, as you said, was

12     established in June 1992?

13        A.   With the establishment of the Croatian Community of Soli, this

14     regional organisation of the HVO was abolished.  And as I said, the

15     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna included Soli, Bosanska Posavina,

16     Usora, Central Bosnia.  All of these joined up into a common

17     organisation.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, you've already answered Judge Antonetti's question and

19     my question about how the HVO units were established.  Can you now

20     explain to the Court, according to your information, when did these --

21     or, rather, when were these HVO units established on the territory of

22     what was later call the 2nd Corps in Tuzla?

23        A.   Your Honours, I know that for certain, because I was there in the

24     area.  I know that smaller units of the HVO were established in the first

25     half of 1992.  I know that sometime in March 1992, for instance, a unit

Page 38386

 1     was established in Zivinice called the Zivinicki Sokolovi.  I know that

 2     in the village of Drinica a friend of mine, Zvonko Juric, established a

 3     unit called Propatrija.  I know that near Lukavac there was a small

 4     village called Bistravac [phoen], where a small HVO unit was formed.

 5        Q.   When mentioning Mr. Zvonko Juric, you mentioned the village

 6     Dremca [as interpreted] which has not enter the record.

 7        A.   Correction, Drinica.

 8        Q.   Well, that can be corrected later on.

 9             Mr. Makar, let us look at some documents illustrating what we've

10     just been talking about.  Please look at my binder.  I see that the usher

11     has given it to you.  The first document is 1D -- I think it's an

12     exhibit.  1925.  Please take a look at the binder and tell me when you've

13     found the document.

14        A.   Your Honour, document 1D1925 confirms what I said about the

15     establishment of the regional community of the HVO on the territory of

16     south-east Bosnia.  You can see the date on page 4, which shows that this

17     happened on the 12th of June, 1992.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, one can see for this document that on the 12th of

19     June, 1992, several representatives of political parties and of citizens

20     established the Croatian Defence Council as a political organisation, and

21     the goals are listed.  Do you remember the name of the president of this

22     first Croatian Defence Council established in June 1992?

23        A.   Your Honours, I've already mentioned that I remember this very

24     well.  Unfortunately, he has died.  His name was Pero Vasilj.

25        Q.   This document is already an exhibit.  We have seen it before.

Page 38387

 1     Please look at the second document in my binder, 2D --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document, as far as I can

 3     see, but if I'm mistaken please do not hesitate to correct me, but as far

 4     as I can see the political parties which set up the HVO originally in

 5     this region, you have the HDZ, the SDA, and then you also have the MBO,

 6     and it seems that there were other political parties as well, but there

 7     are two Muslim components, the SDA and the MBO.  Are you in agreement

 8     that these political parties created the HVO in this region?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are right.  Those

10     were the three parties, but they were also representatives of the

11     citizens, the people living in the area.  I know that the MBO means the

12     Muslim Bosniak Organisation.  That was the name of the party.  And I knew

13     Mr. Salih Burek.  He was a professor.  Personally he was at the head of

14     the party, and I think he participated in this.  The Party of Democratic

15     Action, the SDA, Professor Dr. Salih Kulenovic was their representative.

16     I know him personally as well, and I believe that he also participated in

17     this.  So yes, I can confirm that what you have just said is correct.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  You spoke

19     about the fact that the Croatian Community was called Soli, and as we

20     have a general testifying here, I didn't want to go too deeply into

21     political issues.

22             Just for the sake of the transcript, I want to say that the

23     conclusion on the establishment of the community of Soli is already an

24     exhibit, and its number is 1D2260, 1D2260, and I will be asking the

25     witness about things he has direct knowledge of.

Page 38388

 1        Q.   So please look at 1D1262 now.  2D.  Not 1D but 2D1262.  Just a

 2     moment, Mr. Makar, please.  I'll put questions to you, and I think we'll

 3     proceed faster that way.

 4             Mr. Makar, these are minutes from the 5th session of the

 5     Presidency of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna held on the 17th of

 6     October in Travnik.  On the last page of this document are the signatures

 7     of the attendees, and it says that this happened on the 17th of October,

 8     1992.  As we don't have the year on the first page, that's why I'm

 9     pointing this out.

10             And here we have a list of those who attended the session.

11     Please look at number 37.  We see that there were some persons from Tuzla

12     present.  That's on page 2 of the document.  And now we have the last

13     page on e-court, but let's go back to page 2, please.

14             So here we have a list of names, the names from Tuzla under

15     number 37.  Do you know the persons who attended this session of the

16     Presidency of the HZ HB?

17        A.   Your Honours, I know Mr. Bozo Vilusic really well.  I visited his

18     father at his home about a month ago.  As for Mr. Zeljko Pestic, I did

19     know him but I haven't met him for a long time now.  I think I also knew

20     Mr. Ivica Antic, but I'm not sure about him.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now look at point 18 of the agenda, item 18,

22     which is considering decisions -- the decision on the joining of the

23     communities of Bosanska Posavina, Usora, and Central Bosnia.  And let's

24     look at this discussion under point 18 which is on page 15 in the

25     Croatian version and 17 in English.

Page 38389

 1             Mr. Makar, so item 18, considering decisions on joining, and we

 2     have three communities, Bosnian Posavina, Central Bosnia, and Usora.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Ms. Nozica, unfortunately at least

 4     my copy of the English version does not have pagination, so maybe you

 5     could -- could tell us the -- the number that figures on the bottom right

 6     of the document.  0040 something or 50 something.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] 2D, as I see in e-court, 79-0056.  I

 8     apologise to Their Honours.  My copy does have pagination, but this

 9     document was translated again because there was something that had to be

10     corrected.  So now --

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I have the page.  Thank you very much.  No

12     problem.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.  [In English]

14     Okay.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vilusic says here he informs those present

16     that in north-east Bosnia in Tuzla, an HVO was established, the Croatian

17     Community of Soli, and for objective reasons they have not been able to

18     deliver their application to join.  So now they want to join the unified

19     HZ HB, a single HZ HB, and he goes on to report that within the scope of

20     this community are municipalities, Banovici, Lukavac, and Zivinice.

21             Would you please look at the end.  This is on the next page, both

22     in Croatian and in English, and it says here proposal to join the

23     following Croatian communities to the unified community, Bosnian

24     Posavina, Usora, Central Bosnia, the Soli community, and Sarajevo, and

25     this has been adopted unanimously.  The Soli community, just to have it

Page 38390

 1     correct in the transcript, it says the Soli community, S-o-l-i.  Very

 2     well.  We'll correct this later on.

 3             Mr. Makar, could you please identify whether this Soli community

 4     is the one that you mentioned, the one from Tuzla, and whether you have

 5     any knowledge that this is how things developed in September 1992 -- or

 6     in October 1992.

 7        A.   Your Honours, I can confirm this because I spoke about this.

 8     Here we have the precise date when the Soli community from Tuzla joined

 9     the community of all the Croatian communities of Herceg-Bosna.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Makar.  We'll now go back to military issues.

11             Mr. Makar, under whose command were the HVO units acting on the

12     territory of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army in Tuzla?

13        A.   Your Honours, the HVO units acted under the command of the

14     2nd Corps, and let me clarify, these units were in the chain of command

15     in all operative and combat issues and combat activities.

16             As regards logistics, organisation, and the establishment of

17     those units, the appointment of officers to those units, they were under

18     the command of the Main Staff of the HVO.

19        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you now look at the following document, P10887.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] My apologies.  I'm still on

21     document number 2D -- D1262.

22             Witness, when I look at the list of the people who took part in

23     the meeting of the 17th of October, 1992, I see Mr. Bozo Rajic, who is

24     the vice-president or vice-chairman of the HZ HB, and deputy of head of

25     defence.  I have a question.  Who was the head of defence?  I'm going to

Page 38391

 1     explain this.  Mr. Rajic, who was the deputy head because he's

 2     vice-president, or because he would be head of the Department of Defence

 3     or deputy of the Department of Defence or something like that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Mindua, I can

 5     see this document, and I can see what you're referring to, but I can't

 6     explain it really because I didn't know of these relationships at the

 7     time.  All I know is that later on Mr. Bozo Rajic was the minister of

 8     defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He occupied that post.  That is what I do

 9     know, and that is what I can confirm.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Perhaps I can clarify

12     this.  This is a document that you commented on.  It is a meeting of the

13     Presidency of the HZ HB.  The witness just testified about people from

14     Tuzla whom he knew, and at that time the witness was in the command of

15     the 2nd Corps of the BH army in Tuzla, and he says that the rest of that

16     structure is something that is not known to him.

17        Q.   Now, I asked for P10887, which is the next document.  It is in

18     fact a map, and I hope you've found it.  A map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

19     it shows the separation lines dating to July 1993.  And I've selected

20     this map, Mr. Makar, because we showed it to the previous witness who was

21     asked to indicate certain areas and some places were mentioned which came

22     under the 2 be corps.

23             So I'd like to ask the usher now to place this map on the ELMO

24     this time so that the witness can mark the map.

25             But just briefly, Mr. Makar.  Just tell us -- you'll have to turn

Page 38392

 1     to the ELMO, the overhead projector, and please mark what the 2nd Corps

 2     incorporated, and please bear in mind that we're talking about 1992, from

 3     September onwards, up until the end of 1993 and beginning of 1994.  So

 4     could you mark that on the map, all the areas incorporated by the

 5     2nd Corps.  It needn't be very precise, but just to give us an idea in

 6     the courtroom of how things stood geographically.

 7        A.    I have a question, Your Honours.  Am I being asked to state the

 8     places as municipalities, or just the borders?

 9        Q.   Well, I asked you the question, actually, so just mark in the

10     places.

11        A.   In the area of defence of the 2nd Corps we had the following

12     places:  Part of the Brcko municipality and Gradacac municipality,

13     Gracanica; Doboj Municipality, part of it; Srebrenik, the whole of it;

14     part of Lopare municipality; part of the Zvornik municipality; most of

15     the Kalesija municipality and --

16        Q.   While you're saying this, could you place an X on the map by each

17     of those places that you've mentioned.

18        A.   All right I'll start again then.  Brcko, Gradacac, Srebrenik,

19     Gracanica, Doboj, Lopare, Zvornik, Vukovac, Zvinesik [phoen], Kalesija,

20     Kladanj, Olovo, part of the Zavidovici municipality, Tesanj, and Maglaj,

21     and part of the Zepce municipality.  I think that's the lot.

22        Q.   Yes.  I was looking to see if you had incorporated Tuzla.

23        A.   Yes, I have.

24        Q.   Could you just initial the document so that we know that these

25     markings were made by you.

Page 38393

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, although this

 3     document has a P number, because we have this witness's markings may it

 4     be given a C number?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give it an IC

 6     number.  I think it's easier.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The document just marked by

 8     the witness shall be given Exhibit IC960.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In order for us to try

10     and understand because everything is rather complex and difficult to

11     grasp, as far as you're concerned, you are of Croat origin?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was born in Varazdin, a

13     town in Croatia.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly, a

15     Croat like you, you were part of the Main Staff of the 2nd Corps of the

16     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, you understood

18     that correctly.  I was the Chief of Staff and later on the deputy

19     commander of the 2nd Corps of the Army of the Republic of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I know, you were not

22     the only person in that case.  There were other Croats in the army of

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina, weren't there?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, you're

25     quite right.  In the 2nd Corps -- the first command of the 2nd Corps of

Page 38394

 1     the BH Army was my friend Mr. Zeljko Knez, who was also born in Croatia.

 2     The assistant for security issues was Mr. Anto Pranjic.  He was also a

 3     Croat.  He was born in Tuzla.  The assistant for moral guidance was

 4     Mr. Dragan Kovacevic.  The commander of the 107th HVO Brigade was

 5     Mr. Mijacevic.  And in the Main Staff, as well of the Republic of BH

 6     Army, one of the three members of the top command was Mr. Stjepan Siber,

 7     born in Gradacac.  And if need be, I can tell you other Croats who

 8     occupied top posts in the units of the BH Army.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What you have said

10     is on the transcript.  That is precious information to understand

11     everything.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Makar, I'd like to ask you now, and we're still dealing with

14     the units as we've just seen the 2nd Corps or territorially speaking what

15     it looked like.  2D1154 now, please, which is the next document so that

16     we can see what brigades came within the 2nd Corps.

17             Mr. Makar, we see the date here, 1994, but before that, before

18     that date, can you explain to the Trial Chamber what all the Xs mean

19     above the rectangle -- rectangle number 2 where it says "Tuzla"?  What is

20     this schematic in fact?  What does it show?

21        A.   Your Honours, these markings are the standard way in which the

22     units were marked.  The four stars were units of the rank of a corps.

23     The number on the left-hand side was the number of the corps, and in this

24     particular case the 2nd Corps, and the name underneath, Tuzla, was the

25     2nd Corps, Tuzla, the 2nd Tuzla Corps.  Three stars or Xs above the OG 1

Page 38395

 1     rectangles and the others were the divisions according to NATO standards.

 2     All this is according to NATO standards.

 3        Q.   Tell me, please, Mr. Makar, this was the situation in 1994,

 4     right, as far as the units under the 2nd Corps of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

 5     army in Tuzla are concerned.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what

 6     units there were in 1992 and 1993 until the signing of the Washington

 7     Agreement?  Was the situation somewhat different?

 8        A.   Your Honours, the situation in 1992 and 1993 was indeed somewhat

 9     different.  At the time, the 2nd Corps had within it Operative Group 7,

10     and I've already spoken about that.  And within the composition of

11     Operative Group 7, you had four brigades of the BH Army and the 110th

12     Brigade of the Croatian Defence Council.  Then in OG 1, Operative Group

13     1, there was just one brigade of the HVO and that was the 108th.  And in

14     OG 5, there was no 251st Brigade of the BH Army.

15             So in conclusion, let me say that with the additions I've just

16     presented, or amendments, this organisation of the 2nd Corps existed

17     throughout, from 1992 right up until 1994, which is the schematic shown

18     here with the exceptions I've just mentioned.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I'm curious about

20     this.  How is it that in an organisation chart we have Operation Group 7?

21     It is not mentioned on this document.  Why is that the case?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'll

23     explain that to you.  Operative Group 7, for most of the war in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, was physically cut off from the rest of the territory

25     covered by the 2nd Corps.  It was difficult to command those units.

Page 38396

 1             Now, with the reorganisation of the BH Army, which took place

 2     sometime in 1993, at the end of 1993, pursuant to an order from the

 3     Supreme Command of the BH Army, this Operative Group stepped outside the

 4     2nd Corps composition; that is to say, from -- for exclusive operative

 5     and military reasons.  It was no longer within the 2nd Corps composition.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Makar, since at the very beginning of your testimony you said

 8     that in OG 1 -- that OG 1 included the 107th Brigade Gradacac, can we

 9     correct that too in the situation in 1994 -- or, rather, in 1992 and 1993

10     was that brigade under Operative Group 1, as you've already said?

11        A.   Yes, I have already said that.  That brigade did come under the

12     Operative Group 1 in 1992 and 1993.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I now have some questions as follow-ups to

14     Judge Antonetti's composition [as interpreted] with respect to the ethnic

15     composition of the BH Army, and what I'm interested in is this:  Can you

16     tell us something about the national or ethnic composition of the HVO

17     brigades which were within the composition of the 2nd Corps?  What was

18     the ethnic make-up in the HVO brigades?

19        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can give you a precise answer to that

20     question because it's something I know about very well.  The ethnic

21     composition of almost all the units of the 2nd Corps was mixed.  There

22     was a mixed composition.  There were Muslims and Croats and even some

23     Serbs and others.  The individual units of the 2nd Corps as the 2nd Tuzla

24     Brigade, for instance, they had an ethnic composition which was almost

25     identical to the ethnic composition of the population census of 1991.

Page 38397

 1     The 108th brigade of the HVO, which we've already mentioned, was a

 2     characteristic example because it had a mixed ethnic composition for the

 3     commander, the deputy, and three battalions with predominantly Muslim

 4     population or, rather, members, soldiers, and three battalions with

 5     predominantly Croatian soldiers, and the situation was similar in the

 6     107th HVO Brigade except that there was the reverse ratio; that the

 7     commander, Mijacevic, was a Croat, the deputy was Sadam Imamovic, who was

 8     a Muslim, and the members of the brigade were mixed, of mixed

 9     composition.

10             Now, as to the composition of the corps command, I've already

11     spoken about that.  That was also mixed.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar can we just take a look at two documents to bear out

13     what you said about the ethnic composition of the HVO brigades and units.

14     Look at 2D1152 now, please, and just briefly explain to Their Honours

15     what that is about?

16        A.   Your Honours, this is a document in which I see the signature of

17     Mr. Tomo Tokic, whom I knew personally.

18        Q.   Just a moment, please.  For the transcript, Mr. Makar.  It was

19     not recorded, the number was 2D1152.  You can carry on now.  I apologise

20     for interrupting you.

21        A.   Your Honours, this document is signed by Tomo Tokic whom I knew

22     personally, and I can also see that the document dates to July 1992, and

23     I can also see that it is a list of individuals recorded for

24     reinforcement of HVO units from Tuzla which was established and deployed

25     to act in cooperation with the district Territorial Defence headquarters

Page 38398

 1     of Tuzla.

 2        Q.   Mr. Makar, not to dwell too long on this document, you've looked

 3     through it, so I'd just like to ask you to confirm to the Trial Chamber,

 4     if you can, that the names with circles around them or the numbers with

 5     circles around them, that they are Muslim and Bosniak names.  Just the

 6     names.  We're not going to Muslim or Bosniak but Muslim or Bosniak names.

 7     Do you agree there?  Am I right in saying that?

 8        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that quite definitely because I

 9     know how many members -- how many Muslims were killed from the 115th

10     Brigade, and some of them are on this list as well.

11        Q.   You can look at the next document, please, 2D1153, and just

12     explain to us there again what the document is in relation to the first

13     document we saw.

14        A.   Your Honours, I think that this document is a continuation of the

15     previous document looking at the numbers of the people there listed and

16     looking at the signature, which is once again that of Mr. Tomo Tokic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You spoke, Mr. Makar, about the manner in which HVO

18     units maintained contacts with the Main Staff, as you said, and you said

19     that appointments and personnel affairs were dealt with in Mostar.  So

20     I'll ask you the following:  Do you know in general how appointments were

21     made in the HVO units which were part of the 2nd Corps?

22        A.   Your Honours, I know for certain that appointments of persons to

23     particular positions in the brigades of the HVO which were part of the

24     2nd Corps were made by the Main Staff of the HVO.

25        Q.   Very well.  So let's take a look at this.  Look at 2D1530.

Page 38399

 1     That's the first document.  2D1530.  This is not the document in e-court

 2     but you have found it, sir.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   This is a decision relieving someone of their duty, and it's

 5     signed by Mr. Bruno Stojic as the head of the Defence Department.  Can

 6     you confirm whether you know the persons who were relieved of their duty

 7     by this document?  Do you know them, and does this document testify to

 8     what you've just said, that appointments, dismissals, and relieving

 9     people of their duty was -- were all done in Mostar, the Defence

10     Department?

11        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm this.  I know these people.

12     Mr. Zeljko Grgic is someone I know personally, and I still meet him

13     frequently.  I also know Mr. Pero Lovric.  I might know the others, too,

14     but I know for certain that I know these two.

15        Q.   Well, let's look at the following document, 2D1531.  This is an

16     appointment made to the 115th Brigade, Zrinjski, in Tuzla, and it's

17     signed in 1993 by Mr. Stojic, and we see here that he is appointing nine

18     persons, and it says at the end that other officers and employees in the

19     brigade are to be appointed according to need by the brigade commander

20     who is duty-bound to report this to the Defence Department of the HVO of

21     the HZ HB.

22             So first of all, I'll ask you did you know the persons appointed

23     to these posts, numbers 1 to 9?  Do you know some of them?

24        A.   Your Honour, I know Mr. Marko Mijatovic, Mr. Mijo Cajic,

25     Mr. Mijo -- sorry, Mr. Slavko Pecirep, and Mr. Josip Velfing.  I know

Page 38400

 1     them personally, and as for Mr. Mijatovic and Mr. Cajic, together with

 2     commander of the 2nd Corps, I was at the celebration of the anniversary

 3     of the 2nd Brigade last year.

 4        Q.   Mr. Makar, from the last part of your reply, can we confirm that

 5     those people actually carried out the duties to which they were appointed

 6     by this document?

 7        A.   Yes, I can confirm that these persons did carry out these duties.

 8        Q.   It says here on page 2 that the commander of the 115th Zrinjski

 9     Brigade was authorised.  Who was the commander at the time?

10        A.   The brigade of the 115th Zrinjski Brigade from the beginning to

11     the end of the war was Mr. Zvonko Juric.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you know what the other contacts were like between

13     the HVO brigades which were subordinated to the 2nd Corps and the Main

14     Staff?  Do you know of any other forms of contact or other forms of

15     cooperation between the Main Staff, the Defence Department, and the HVO

16     brigades which were subordinated to the 2nd Corps?

17        A.   Your Honours, I have already pointed out that the HVO brigades

18     were subordinated to the command of the 2nd Corps in operative and combat

19     activities, but as regards other military issues such as logistics,

20     appointments, and other similar issues, they were subordinated to the

21     Main Staff so that the HVO brigades and their commanders and other

22     commanding officers regularly communicated with the Main Staff and the

23     Defence Department in Mostar.

24        Q.   Mr. Makar --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, based on this document

Page 38401

 1     which concern the 115th Brigade of the HVO unless I'm mistaken this

 2     brigade is part of Operative Group 5.  That's right.  I've just checked.

 3             When Mr. Stojic, on the basis of this document, dismisses

 4     Mr. Marko Pavicic and relieves him of his duties, when he does this, I

 5     assume that a report was drafted by the authority of the 115th Brigade of

 6     the ABiH.  That was addressed to Mr. Stojic to dismiss Mr. Marko Pavicic.

 7     It's not Mr. Stojic who meddles in the internal workings of the 2nd

 8     Corps?

 9        A.   Your Honour, this is correct.  The Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had

10     a similar principle.  The Defence Departments dismissed and appointed

11     officers of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in units and brigades of the

12     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, they did not interfere in any way,

13     command other duties of these brigades, in this case the the 2nd Corps,

14     so that Mr. Bruno Stojic as head of the Defence Department did this for

15     the brigades of the HVO.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As far as you know

17     Mr. Stojic was the head of the Defence Department, and as such did not

18     have the authority to say no.  If the ABiH asked him to dismiss Mr. Mirko

19     Simic, head of the finance department, he dismissed him, or could he say

20     that he did not agree?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can say that

22     appointing and dismissing people to various posts in the units of the HVO

23     was exclusively within the purview of the Defence Department of the HVO.

24     The 2nd Corps never complained about any of the appointments or

25     dismissals made in that way, but we were informed of all of them and we

Page 38402

 1     knew what appointments and dismissals had been made.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall fine tune my question.

 3     Let's take the case of Mr. Mirko Simic.  I don't know who this person is.

 4     It's number 4 on the list.  I know that he was in charge of the budget

 5     and all financial matters relating to the brigade.  When Mr. Stojic

 6     dismisses him, he dismisses him because it's the ABiH that has asked him

 7     to do so.  Yes or no?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no.  That's not

 9     correct.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why does he dismiss him?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know why.  The

12     chief of the financial service in one of the brigades in the corps was

13     relieved of his duty, although I was the Chief of Staff in that corps,

14     but there were 35 brigades there.  So with all due respect to Mr. Mirko

15     Simic, that is a low-level officer.  The level is too low for me to know

16     the reasons why.  We did not interfere in the appointments and dismissals

17     of those persons who were considerably lower down in the military

18     organisation.

19             In the 2nd Corps command, we did not even interfere in some

20     appointments at the rank of chief of the financial service in one of my

21     brigades, for example, because this was not within the purview of the

22     corps commander.  He appointed officers at brigade level and the brigade

23     commander had his own powers as did the Defence Department, and I think

24     the same principle applied in the Croatian Defence Council.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General, I don't know if I'm

Page 38403

 1     not mistaken when I say that, by answering this way you support the idea

 2     that between the HVO and the ABiH things were so inter-related that the

 3     Defence Department was, ex officio, in the position to appoint or dismiss

 4     officers even if these were lower-ranking officers without the ABiH

 5     intervening in any way.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, precisely so.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly,

 8     let's assume that Mr. Stojic had wanted to dismiss you for whatever

 9     reason, could he have done so?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think I

11     understood your question really well, but certainly Mr. Stojic could not

12     have done that.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why is that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I and officers at my level,

15     at my rank, were appointed by the Defence Department and the Main Staff

16     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Therefore, as far as the

18     higher-ranking officers at your level were concerned, Mr. Stojic couldn't

19     do anything at all, but as far as lower-ranking officers were concerned,

20     he could dismiss and appoint the former.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what

22     precisely were the powers of the Defence Department of the HVO and

23     Mr. Stojic and up to what level and what officers he could dismiss and

24     appoint, because that was not something I dealt with or was interested in

25     at the time.

Page 38404

 1             In the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were precise rules as to

 2     what the Main Staff could do, what level of officers they could appoint

 3     and dismiss, and what the brigade commanders and lower-ranking officers

 4     could do.  I think it was the same in the HVO.  And this has to do

 5     with --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  He could dismiss and

 8     appoint the latter.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Excuse me, the witness did not

10     finish his answer.  He was interrupted.  He did not finish the sentence,

11     "and this has to do with," and then you interrupted.  Please, please do

12     not do this if possible.  Let him finish the sentence.  Okay?

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw Judge Antonetti

14     pointing at Mr. Praljak, and I intervened because I wanted to put my

15     question before that because I think there is confusion arising from the

16     question put by Judge Antonetti.

17             At page 32, in line 17, His Honour Judge Antonetti asked about

18     appointments in the 115th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   Witness, please, can you say once again very concisely, when it

20     comes to appointments made by the Defence Department in Mostar, what

21     units did these appointments relate to?  Was it only the HVO units which

22     were part of the 2nd Corps?

23        A.   Your Honour, His Honour Judge Trechsel just pointed out that I

24     was interrupted in the middle of my sentence.  Appointments and

25     dismissals, the ones mention here and in general, in the brigades and

Page 38405

 1     units of the HVO, were exclusively within the competence of Mostar;

 2     whereas, appointments and dismissals in the units and brigades of the

 3     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were exclusively within the competence of

 4     Sarajevo, that is, the Main Staff.

 5        Q.   Witness, I apologise to you.  We have circled around this a lot.

 6     I think had this been stated earlier, there would have been less

 7     confusion.  I don't know whether Mr. Praljak wanted to say anything else?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you want to clarify

 9     something because I do not quite understand answer from the witness, but

10     perhaps you can give us some clarification.

11             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, witness --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] But not clarify as a witness.

13     You're just going to clarify the situation.

14             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] I don't want to testify,

15     Your Honour.  I'm always being told this.  I don't see that I'm

16     testifying.  But please ask him.  It's very important for you to clarify

17     what is operative and combat subordination or resubordination of one army

18     to another or units from one army to other units, and what is retaining

19     logistics, staffing policy, personnel, and so on.  And is that how it

20     works in all the forces of NATO and so on?  So this is something that has

21     to be ultimately clarified.  Resubordination in combat and operations

22     while retaining the autonomy of the army coming from France or any other

23     country which is part of an alliance, because that is the essence of the

24     proposals discussed later on the 15th of January and so on.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you for this

Page 38406

 1     clarification.

 2             In the question that I asked earlier on, this was this issue that

 3     I wanted to bring about when I was talking about the interrelation

 4     between both armies.  General Praljak talked about the resubordination of

 5     an army and -- towards another, and you haven't really touched upon this

 6     issue, hence my question earlier on.

 7             Would it be correct to say that in February 1993, the 115th

 8     brigade of the HVO had been subordinated to the ABiH?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Mr. Praljak said

10     precisely the same thing that I said, but perhaps you didn't note that

11     properly.  It's in the transcript, and I said quite literally what he

12     just said, that the brigades of the Croatian Defence Council were

13     resubordinated to the 2nd Corps of the BH Army Corps in the operative and

14     combat sphere, and as the Chief of Staff, or, rather, the corps

15     commander, I was not interested in who was the head of the financial

16     service in that brigade if it was in operative and combat terms working

17     properly under our command.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  I wonder whether I understand this

19     or correct -- I think I -- mainly, I do understand it, but perhaps you do

20     not know the structure of the competencies within the HVO and Mostar.

21             The Defence Department was competent as far as the chiefs of

22     services in the staff were concerned, medical service, security, and so

23     forth, because they formed part of the Ministry of Defence.

24             Was he also competent with regard to commanders within the HVO

25     Brigade?  Do you know that or is that something that you did not bother

Page 38407

 1     about?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Trechsel, I

 3     don't know that much about that topic, and you've said it precisely.  I

 4     don't know the relationships between the Main Staff of the HVO and the

 5     Defence Department that well.  I think they were responsible for

 6     appointing brigade commanders of the HVO as well.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, thank you very much.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have to take a

 9     break, but the question from my colleague was at a different level than

10     my question which had to do with the subordination.  The main issue was

11     to find out whether the HVO brigades had been resubordinated to the ABiH.

12     This is this is really what is at hand here, this issue of

13     resubordination, I would like to know whether there was a document coming

14     from the Main Staff of the ABiH or of the HVO, to your knowledge of

15     course, a document stating that the 115th brigade was a part, whether

16     forever or just for a period of time, of this 2nd Corps.  Was there a

17     document and, if so, have you seen this document?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

19     any such document existed, because from the beginning of 1992, I was the

20     assistant for operations and training, and later on the Chief of Staff of

21     the corps, and so my prime task was to deal with combat operations, and

22     that is why I was in the field engaged in combat operations.  These other

23     questions were in the administrative domain and had to do with personnel,

24     cadres.  The corps commander dealt with those matters together with his

25     assistants for personnel affairs and organisational affairs.  So I can't

Page 38408

 1     confirm that because I don't know if any such document existed.  And for

 2     my part, what was essential as far as I was concerned was that those

 3     brigades carry out their combat orders that they received from the

 4     command of the 2nd Corps.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So according to you, you were

 6     working on the ground.  You had the 115th Brigade at your disposal.  Now,

 7     whether this 115th brigade had been subordinated or how it had been

 8     subordinated or how the department of the defence of the HVO was working

 9     with the Main Staff of the HVO this -- this was not part of your

10     knowledge.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I'm not sure, I wouldn't like

12     to speculate.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  We're

14     going have a break of 20 minutes.

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall resume.  Just a point

18     of clarification for tomorrow's hearing.  Since we have a Plenary Session

19     which will start at 2.30 -- at 12.30, will start at 12.30 and finish at

20     1430 or 1400, in order for us to be prepared, we will start this hearing

21     at 14.30, 2.30 p.m.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, now we have to clarify at least three points.  Now,

24     for the transcript I'd like to say that on page 22 of today's testimony

25     and today's transcript, lines 2 to 7, you said in answer to my question

Page 38409

 1     that all the HVO brigades which were within the composition of the

 2     2nd Corps acted under the command of the 2nd Corps in a combat and

 3     operative terms, and in the logistics sense, organisational and

 4     administrative sense, they were under the responsibility or authority as

 5     you said of the Main Staff.

 6             Now, because of the series of questions that you were asked by

 7     the Judges, could you once again confirm whether you stand wholly by what

 8     you said earlier on in your testimony?

 9        A.   Your Honours, yes, I do stand wholly by what I said earlier on

10     and what Ms. Nozica has just repeated and summarised.

11        Q.   Judge Antonetti afterwards asked you whether there was a document

12     about this to the effect that the HVO brigades which were within the

13     composition of the 2nd Corps in combat terms, whether they were

14     subordinated to the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, and you said that you

15     didn't know whether any such document or decree existed.

16             Now, I'm asking you whether you as someone who was a high-ranking

17     individual in the command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, whether you

18     know that the 2nd Corps -- or, rather, the BH Army commanded those units?

19        A.   Your Honours, I certainly do know that the 2nd Corps did command

20     those units.  And let me repeat, in combat operations they carried out

21     the combat tasks and assignments just as the BH Army brigades did.  Let

22     me make that clear now by quoting an example.

23             At a certain point in time, a smaller unit of the 115th Brigade

24     of the HVO left part of the battle-field, and I as Chief of Staff at that

25     point in time of the corps, I engaged the military police of the BH Army,

Page 38410

 1     and they arrested and took those soldiers into custody and having spent a

 2     night in prison, the next day they carried out their tasks.

 3        Q.   In line -- or, rather, page 41, line 8, it should read -- did you

 4     say that was November of what year?  The 115th Brigade, you said, is that

 5     right, of the HVO, or the 115th Brigade of the BH Army, which?  I'm

 6     referring to your last answer?

 7        A.   They were members of the 115th Brigade of the HVO.

 8        Q.   All right.  That's fine.  We've cleared that up.  And one more

 9     explanation linked to the appointments we've mentioned so far.  We saw

10     the appointments and how people were relieved of duty in the 115th HVO

11     Brigade and that was in 2D1530.  So we're going back and 2D1531; right?

12        A.   Yes.  That's precisely right.

13        Q.   Now, can you confirm, please, Mr. Makar, that all the

14     appointments and when people were relieved of their duties were pursuant

15     to proposals from the command of this brigade?

16        A.   Yes, I can confirm that because that's what the practice was, and

17     that was what the practice in the BH Army units was as well.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we left off discussing command for the 2nd Corps

19     and communications between the HVO of the brigades who were within the

20     2nd Corps.  Did you have and do you have any knowledge and experience

21     about the following:  That certain parts of other brigades, other HVO

22     brigades, from the HZ HB came onto the territory of the 2nd Corps as

23     reinforcement either to the 2nd Corps of the HVO brigades which belonged

24     to the 2nd Corps?

25        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that.  Smaller parts of the HVO

Page 38411

 1     units from the broader area around Mostar and the Main Staff, did come to

 2     the area of defence of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army as reinforcement in

 3     the very difficult combat operations, and if there's enough time, I can

 4     also quote some examples where I took part personally.

 5        Q.   Mr. Makar, if -- when these units arrived in the territory of the

 6     2nd Corps, and you say you have examples where you took part personally,

 7     can you tell us who commanded them?  Who was in command in the area of

 8     responsibility of the 2nd Corps?

 9        A.   They were smaller units of a platoon level, and to explain to

10     Their Honours that means about 30 men, 30 soldiers.  And when arrived in

11     the area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, defence of the 2nd Corps,

12     they were subordinated to the brigade in whose area they were active, and

13     by that same token they were under 2nd Corps command.

14        Q.   Did you personally command those units?  Have you got any

15     personal experience?

16        A.   Yes.  I can say unfortunately I do have personal experience in

17     that.  It was sometime at the end of 1992 when I was up at the front line

18     of the fighting that was taking place in the area of Markovic Polje and

19     Laniste.  It was in the area of our 107th Brigade, and as reinforcement

20     from the Mostar area, a smaller unit numbering about 30 men arrived.

21     They were well-trained soldiers, and right next to me during the fighting

22     some were seriously wounded.  And I can quote another example which I

23     happen to remember just now, where in the area of defence of the 108th

24     Brigade and the 21st Brigade of the BH Army, Mr. Ante Roso and Mr. Niko

25     Lozancic brought in a platoon of specials of the HVO into the area of

Page 38412

 1     Islamovac near Brcko where there was heavy fighting going on, and I went

 2     up to the front line with them, into the front line, and unfortunately

 3     next to me two of those soldiers were killed by my side.

 4        Q.   Now that you've mentioned the 108th Brigade, it was the HVO 108th

 5     Brigade; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, with respect to communication and the

 8     communication lines, the HVO, the brigade, Main Staff, and Defence

 9     Department, let's look at 2D00439, the next document, please.  We have a

10     request here from Mr. Bruno Stojic dated the 20th of May, 1993,

11     requesting complete information on the situation in Tuzla and Brcko.  And

12     I'd like us to move to the second document now, please, or, rather, the

13     second page of this document where we have a response dated the 21st of

14     May, 1993, signed by the commander.  It is the 115th Zrinjski HVO Brigade

15     which was within the composition of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, and it

16     is signed by Zvonko Juric.

17             Can you first confirm for Their Honours that Mr. Juric was indeed

18     the commander of this brigade?  Do you know that personally?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Mr. Zvonko Juric was the commander of the

20     115th Brigade of the HVO.

21        Q.   Mr. Makar, would you explain to the Trial Chamber -- well, we

22     have a report -- or, rather, a piece of information dated the 21st of

23     May, 1993.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber the circumstances in

24     which this document was compiled and whether you, yourself, were in

25     Mostar beforehand and provided information about the events taking place

Page 38413

 1     at that time to the representatives of the Defence Department?

 2        A.   Your Honours, I can give you an explanation.  Looking at this

 3     document, it was probably compiled during the very heavy fighting that

 4     was going on the battlefront in Posavina, north of Tuzla.  Before that,

 5     sometime at the end of April and the beginning of May, I happened to be

 6     in Mostar, and I informed Mr. Stojic, Petkovic, and Praljak of the very

 7     difficult situation that we were facing over there in our area.

 8             Now, I didn't know about this document at the time, the one we're

 9     looking at just now, but looking at it now I assume that after my visit

10     to Mostar and after having informed them of the very difficult situation,

11     Mr. Stojic must have asked the commander of the 115th HVO Brigade to

12     inform him personally about the situation.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Makar, in the middle of that document, just above

14     point 3, it says:

15              "However, there is a lack of MTS, materiel and technical

16     equipment, as well as a full logistical support which can have strategic

17     consequences and destabilise the entire battle-field."

18             Were you aware of this situation at that time, and did you

19     discuss it previously with the representatives, as you say, with

20     Mr. Stojic, Petkovic, and Praljak?

21        A.   Your Honours, the situation with respect to MTS and the lack of

22     it was chronic, if I can use that term.  Throughout the war, there was

23     always a lack of MTS, a shortage, and the opposite side has had endless

24     resources which we always lacked.  So I was at the end of April and

25     beginning of May in Mostar precisely for that reason, to try and secure

Page 38414

 1     replenishment with MTS.

 2        Q.   Mr. Makar, in point 5 it says in this document that the political

 3     and security situation in the Tuzla region was stable, that there were no

 4     conflicts with the BH Army, and that the 2nd Corps command completely

 5     honoured the agreement reached in Zagreb on the 25th of April, 1993, and

 6     pertains to the articles dealing with (A), that the BH Army and the HVO

 7     will keep their own separate identities and command constitutions, and

 8     the ARBiH are equally legal armies, and that the ABiH and HVO have joint

 9     command for the district of -- that the Joint Command for the district of

10     Tuzla is still not established because General Halilovic did not appoint

11     two of his officers.  So this agreement could not have been implemented.

12             Can you confirm that that was the situation in Tuzla and that the

13     information set out here is correct?

14        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, and that throughout the war the

15     situation in Tuzla and further afield in the territory covered by the

16     2nd Corps was as has been described and that what Mr. Zvonko Juric says

17     here is quite correct.

18        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  As you have just touched on the main topic of

19     your testimony, which is procurement of equipment and materiel, can you

20     explain to Their Honours how in terms of logistics the 2nd Corps was

21     supplied with equipment and materiel, both the corps as a whole and the

22     HVO units which were a part of it.

23        A.   Your Honours, the 2nd Corps, in order to engage in combat

24     activities, procured equipment and materiel in several ways.  One way was

25     through the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, directly from

Page 38415

 1     Croatia.  The other way was through the Ministry of Defence of the

 2     Republic of Croatia and through the Grude logistics base.  The third way

 3     was from the logistics base of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Visoko.

 4     The fourth way was directly from the supplies of the HVO in the Grude

 5     logistics base.  The fifth way was through logistics centres of the BH

 6     Army in Zagreb, and the logistics centres of individual brigades and

 7     municipalities in Zagreb.  And the last way was by direct donations of

 8     certain equipment and materiel for the 2nd Corps.

 9        Q.   As you've mentioned various sources of supplies of equipment and

10     materiel for the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, can you

11     tell us from which source you received the most equipment and materiel?

12        A.   We received most of the equipment and materiel for the 2nd Corps

13     from the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia and the Grude

14     logistics base.

15        Q.   Please explain to Their Honours how the first contacts were

16     established and with whom regarding procurement of material and

17     equipment, either with the HVO or the logistics base in Grude.  Who

18     established these contacts?

19        A.   Your Honour, the first contacts were established by the commander

20     of the 2nd corps, Zeljko Knez, and then these contacts were continued by

21     Hazim Sadic, General Hazim Sadic, who was later the corps commander.

22        Q.   You spoke about the first commander of the 2nd corps,

23     Mr. Zeljko Knez.  Until when was he the commander of the 2nd Corps?

24        A.   Mr. Zeljko Knez was the commander of the 2nd Corps until February

25     1993.  He then received an order from the Supreme Command Staff of the

Page 38416

 1     Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina appointing him military

 2     attache of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the embassy to the Republic

 3     of Croatia, but as far as I know, this order was never implemented in

 4     practice.

 5        Q.   So as far as you know, he never became the military attache of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina in Croatia.  Does that mean that in February he left

 7     the duty of the commander of the 2nd Corps?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He never became a military attache but he

 9     left in February.

10        Q.   Can you just tell us who was appointed in his place?

11        A.   Hazim Sadic was appointed in place of Zeljko Knez.  Up to that

12     point in time, he had been deputy corps commander and he became acting

13     corps commander at that point.  He was acting commander until the 18th of

14     July, 1993, when he was officially appointed corps commander.

15        Q.   Mr. Makar, you mentioned Mr. Sadic and Mr. Knez regarding

16     supplies of materiel and equipment.  In 1992, were there any contacts

17     with the Ministry of Defence in Croatia in order to obtain medical

18     equipment and materiel?

19        A.   Yes.  We had quite a few war hospitals which needed medicines and

20     other supplies, so Mr. Hazim Sadic, sometime in August 1992, established

21     direct contact with Mr. Ivo Prodan, who was a physician and a head

22     doctor, and he was in the health administration of the Ministry of

23     Defence of Croatia, and based on his contacts with Mr. Sadic, we received

24     the medical equipment and supplies we needed for our war hospitals and

25     other needs.

Page 38417

 1        Q.   Could you now look at 2D1038, please.  It's the next document.

 2     It's an order.  We have it in e-court now.  Could you please very briefly

 3     say whether this is a command that has to do with these contacts you

 4     mentioned?

 5        A.   Your Honour, I think this is the order stating that Mr. Sadic was

 6     to carry out this task and to be allowed to move about freely while

 7     performing it.

 8        Q.   Mr. Makar, after these contacts established by Mr. Knez and

 9     Mr. Sadic, did contacts continue, and was other equipment and materiel

10     obtained apart from medical supplies for the 2nd Corps, weapons and so

11     on?

12        A.   Yes.  These contacts continued.  We received large amounts of

13     medical material for our war hospitals because we had large numbers of

14     casualties in our combat activities.

15        Q.   Mr. Makar, as you spoke of different ways of procuring materiel

16     and equipment, you said one of these ways was directly from the Ministry

17     of Defence of the Republic of Croatia.  So I would now like to ask you to

18     look at a few documents and comment very briefly and then we'll deal with

19     all of them together as a set.  So please look at 2D1046, please.

20        A.   Your Honours, this is a dispatch note for equipment and materiel,

21     and you can see that this was sent from Zagreb through the Ministry of

22     Defence for the 107th Brigade of the Gradacac HVO, and we see who the

23     driver was who received these goods.

24        Q.   Mr. Makar, as it says here that it's for the 107th Gradacac

25     Brigade, can you explain to Their Honours whether this equipment was

Page 38418

 1     being sent to the 107th Brigade only and why is the 107th Brigade

 2     mentioned here?

 3        A.   Your Honours, the 2nd Corps when entering its area had a

 4     check-point through which all equipment and material entering the corps

 5     area had to pass.  Pursuant to an agreement with the HVO, all the

 6     equipment being sent to the 2nd Corps was addressed in the documents to

 7     the 107th Brigade of the HVO or the 108th Brigade or the 115th Brigade,

 8     and it was the corps that disposed of all the equipment and distributed

 9     them where it was most needed.

10        Q.   This agreement which you say was in place at the time, did it

11     refer to equipment and materiel arriving directly from Croatia as well?

12        A.   Your Honours, this pertained to all the equipment and materiel

13     arriving, and the reason it was done was so that this equipment could

14     pass more easily through areas controlled by the HVO.

15        Q.   Mr. Makar, you yourself said that you went to Mostar to the main

16     logistics base in order to obtain equipment and materiel.  Did the

17     2nd Corps of the BH Army issue approval for safe passage when obtaining

18     this MTS through areas controlled by the BH Army?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honours, precisely so.  The documents had to be

20     addressed in this way, because there was a war going on, and there were

21     many local commanders around who didn't always comply with orders coming

22     from above.  So in order to ensure safe passage, we from the 2nd Corps

23     also issued our documents for the passage of this equipment and materiel

24     through the territory held by the army of -- the Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 38419

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's look at the following four documents which also

 2     relate to what we are just discussing.  2D1093.  Can you just confirm

 3     whether this was material for the 2nd Corps arriving from Zagreb?

 4        A.   Yes, I confirm that this was being sent from Zagreb to the

 5     2nd Corps, and you can see that this was received by

 6     Mr. Edin Delibegovic.  He was the assistant commander of the 2nd Corps

 7     for procurement.

 8        Q.   Very well the next document 2D1150.

 9        A.   Your Honours, I confirm that this is a similar document with

10     Mr. Edin Delibegovic taking a delivery on behalf of the 2nd Corps.

11        Q.   2D1145?

12        A.   Your Honour, I also can confirm that this document deals with the

13     supply of various types of equipment and materiel for the needs of the

14     2nd Corps, and it came from Croatia.

15        Q.   And document 2D1040.  It's dated the 16th of February, 1993, and

16     signed by the chief of the department of the Ministry of the Interior, a

17     service for the protection of the constitutional order.  Can you very

18     briefly comment on this document.

19        A.   We can see from this document that the chief of the department,

20     Mr. Cedomir Dijanovic, is asking for approval for transport of equipment

21     and materiel, asking that it be allowed to leave Split, and that the

22     equipment be delivered to its destination in Tuzla and Gradacac.  He goes

23     on to mention that he will inform the commander of the 2nd Corps,

24     Mr. Zeljko Knez, and the commander of the Gradacac battlefront,

25     Mr. Miocevic in order for them to take delivery of the equipment and

Page 38420

 1     materiel.

 2        Q.   Does this document confirm that the equipment arrived on the

 3     territory of the 2nd Corps as you explained?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And finally can we confirm how these weapons, when they arrived

 6     in the 2nd Corps, how they were distributed?

 7        A.   The weapons which arrived in the 2nd Corps were recorded by the

 8     logistics services of the corps, and then distributed to the brigade or

 9     Operative Group which needed them most.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Mr. Makar, with respect to the

11     document 2D01040, you have confirmed that the document shows that these

12     MTS were actually delivered.  I read at the -- at the bottom of the

13     letter as follows:

14              "We are going to duly inform you on the time of the team's

15     arrival as well as about individuals who are the members of the team."

16             It does not seem to me that this shows that it was actually

17     delivered.  On the contrary, it announces the delivery and announces

18     confirmation.  Now, maybe I am in error and have misunderstood something,

19     but perhaps you can explain.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you understood

21     correctly.  I didn't say that these particular supplies arrived.  I was

22     only saying that the document shows the procedure and the methods used

23     when transporting this equipment.  Approval was necessary, and after the

24     approval was obtained, the 2nd Corps was informed.  I can't say whether

25     this particular equipment arrived, so, yes, you understood this

Page 38421

 1     correctly.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The record does not

 3     actually render this the same way, if you look at 51, page 51, lines 11

 4     to 13, but you have clarified now.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

 6     you.  I don't know if you'll be able to answer it.  If you don't answer

 7     my question, I shall keep this document and put the question to other

 8     witnesses who will come here and who come from the Republic of Croatia in

 9     the event that someone can answer my question, but maybe you are able to

10     answer my question.

11             On looking at this document 2D1040, I realise something.  This

12     document stems undoubtedly from the Republic of Croatia and the Interior

13     Ministry, but I see that it says here "Department for the protection of

14     the constitutional system," and this raises a question.

15             Was this department only designed to ensure the protection of the

16     Republic of Croatia, or did -- or was this department competent to

17     protect the constitutional system of other republics?  Can you shed some

18     light on this or don't you know anything about it?

19        A.   Your Honour, I really can't say what the system of organisation

20     was and whether the service for the protection of the constitutional

21     system, where it was, but as -- well, actually, I assume that it was

22     there for the protection of the constitutional system of the Republic of

23     Croatia, because it says the Republic of Croatia in the heading.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

Page 38422

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's move on to another kind of procurement of

 2     materiel and equipment for the needs of the 2nd Corps.  Can you explain

 3     to Their Honours whether the 2nd Corps in a certain period of time obtain

 4     MTS from Bosnia and Posavina and, to the best of your knowledge, how this

 5     was agreed and with whom?  After that we'll look at some documents.

 6        A.   Your Honours, we obtained MTS from Bosanska Posavina, also from

 7     the depot of the HVO for as long as this was possible.  Later on, when

 8     due to combat activities engaged in by the Chetnik forces, our

 9     connections with Bosnian Posavina were cut off.  We could no longer

10     obtain MTS from there, and then we could only obtain it from Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Would you now take a look at document 2D1075.  Mr. Makar, once

12     again let's see whether this refers to MTS for the 2nd Corps and its

13     procurement, and can you just tell us whether what it says here about the

14     107th Brigade, that that was in fact pursuant to the agreement that you

15     spoke about earlier on?

16        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that.  This document, as we can

17     see, is about MTS coming from Bosanska Posavina, and we can see that it

18     is addressed to the 107th HVO Brigade.  However, from a detail here which

19     I've just noticed, what I said is confirmed, and that is that the

20     materiel and resources were handed out by the 2nd Corps where they were

21     most needed.  And would you focus on number 4 for that, please, number 4,

22     point 4 of this document, where it says round of bullet, 100 millimetres,

23     T-12.  And since I'm well-versed in these matters, a T-12 cannon is

24     something that the 107th HVO Brigade never had.  And as you can see, a

25     hundred grenades arriving for that particular cannon, gun, which confirms

Page 38423

 1     that in one shipment of this MTS, materiel merchandise were intended for

 2     other units of the corps as I've already said.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I have quite a number of documents to get

 4     through, and you can just tell me whether you confirm that this was done

 5     in the same way and the next document is 2D1076.

 6        A.   Yes, I confirm that that is correct.  It's the same way, method.

 7        Q.   Now 2D1044.

 8        A.   I can confirm that, too, that it was done in the way I've

 9     described.

10        Q.   2D1045 is the next document.

11        A.   Yes, I confirm that too.

12        Q.   2D1047 is next.

13        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.  The principle is the same.

14        Q.   And 2D1068.

15        A.   Yes, I can confirm that for this document as well.  The same

16     principle was applied for the procurement of MTS.

17        Q.   Now, linked to these documents, can you confirm that these

18     weapons did indeed reach Tuzla and were distributed in the way you've

19     described to us?

20        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can confirm that, that the weapons and MTS

21     did arrive at the 2nd Corps and that it was later used in the manner I

22     have already described.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you know whether this MTS was issued out for the

24     needs of the 2nd Corps in conformity with permission and knowledge of the

25     Main Staff in Mostar?

Page 38424

 1        A.   Yes, I can confirm that, because when the MTS arrived to the

 2     brigades of the HVO, they used their own lines to send reports to the

 3     Main Staff of the HVO, and from that we were able to see which resources

 4     actually arrived.

 5        Q.   Mr. Makar, a moment ago you explained to us all the ways and

 6     channels in which the MTS reached the 2nd Corps, and you said that you

 7     procured them also from the logistics base at Grude, and you explained

 8     that this was done in two ways.  Could you repeat how the MTS arrived in

 9     Grude and how you procured them?

10        A.   Part of the MTS would arrive through the Ministry of Defence of

11     the Republic of Croatia and Grude and was then sent on to the 2nd Corps,

12     and part of the MTS, the other part of the MTS, came directly from the

13     depots in Grude and arrived in the 2nd Corps.

14        Q.   Very well.  So that was a warehouse and depot under HVO control;

15     right?  That's quite clear.

16        A.   Yes.  That was the main logistics base of the HVO of Grude, and

17     that's quite clear.  It was the HVO.

18        Q.   Now, since we're talking about the first way in which the

19     resources were sent from MORH, and you took them over, or, rather, the

20     2nd Corps took them over in Grude, for that let's just look at four

21     documents and I'll ask you for your comments.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

23     question for you.  In the last document which is dated -- dated the month

24     of April, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't there an arms embargo at the time?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm a

Page 38425

 1     professional soldiers, and in peacetime and wartime I adhered to the

 2     principle that politics determines and the army carries things out.  So

 3     it's not my place to comment the questions of embargo.  That's a

 4     political decision.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand your question.  As

 6     inside the 2nd Corps, were there international observers?  Were there any

 7     liaison officers part of the 2nd Corps who were in contact with you, with

 8     your colleagues, or with higher-ranking officers?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, in the

10     area of responsibility of the 2nd Corps, from the beginning of the war

11     until the end of it, there were always international observers present.

12     First of all it was UNPROFOR, the military forces, then observers from

13     the European Community and then other organisations as well, and as the

14     Chief of Staff, it was one of my duties every Tuesday, whenever I wasn't

15     in the field, to hold meetings with those organisations.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the international

17     observers saw, for instance, that elements of the 107th Brigade had 20

18     RPG 7s that were brand new, did they tell you that they were a little bit

19     surprised by that, or did that seem quite normal?  In the document, 24

20     RPGs were supplied.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I'm in

22     a difficult place here to answer the question, because we're dealing with

23     members of the international forces, after all, who performed their

24     duties honourably, the assignments they were given, and as to their

25     conduct in the field, that very often depended on certain local

Page 38426

 1     conditions.  But if you would like, I can give my own comments, and they

 2     would be this:  After meeting them over a period of time and holding

 3     meetings with the representatives of the international community over a

 4     long period of time, when we came into closer contact and I got to know

 5     them better, they told me loud and clear -- they said, "General, sir, we

 6     are here first and foremost to implement the policies of our governments.

 7     Secondly, we are here because it's well paid.  Thirdly, is our role to

 8     assist you."

 9             Well, I apologise for being frank, but that is an exact rendition

10     of what I was told by them.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Ms. Nozica.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Two questions after Judge Antonetti's questions.  First of all,

14     Judge Antonetti says if the observers were to see these 24 RPGs in the

15     107th HVO Brigade, I think it would be well to repeat once again.  Those

16     mortars, did they come to the 107th HVO Brigade, or did they arrive at

17     the 2nd Corps and then were distributed according to need, which?

18        A.   All the MTS that arrived from any source whatsoever had to go

19     through just one route.  Physically, it was not possible to bring them in

20     through any other route, so that it was the 2nd Corps which received all

21     the MTS through that one route and kept complete records of their

22     arrival.  After that, let me repeat, we would distribute these resources

23     to the parts of the front where they were most needed regardless of what

24     brigade, whether it was the HVO Brigade or BH Army brigade.

25        Q.   Mr. Makar, another question.  Following on from the questions

Page 38427

 1     asked by Judge Antonetti, what would have happened to the Tuzla region,

 2     which as we have seen is a very large area, had you not procured weapons

 3     in the way in which you have described to us now during your testimony?

 4     Would the area have been defended from the Yugoslav Army and Serb

 5     paramilitaries?  Would it have been successful in defending itself?

 6        A.   Your Honours, perhaps I wouldn't be sitting here today, because

 7     one thing is certain, the territory could not have been defended

 8     successfully without those weapons.  And I can also say that in the NATO

 9     school that I attended after the war, we were there together with Serb

10     officers, and we had mutual discussions and discussed matters like that,

11     that they had a thousand shells during the war on one day and we had ten.

12     Had we not even had those ten shells, then quite certainly the territory

13     would look quite different today to what it does.

14        Q.   Mr. Makar, you mentioned in response to my questions -- well, you

15     said that the MTS came from the Ministry of Defence of Croatia to the

16     logistics base in Grude, and then you took the MTS over from there.  Have

17     I understood you correctly?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   Now look at document 2D1155 and tell us whether this is a

20     document confirming this manner of procurement, 1155 is the document

21     number.

22        A.   Yes, Your Honours I've found the document and that is

23     confirmation of what I've been talking about, because we can see that the

24     MTS transport was okayed from Imotski-Grude-Tuzla.

25        Q.   The next document is 2D1090.  Is that a document confirming the

Page 38428

 1     fact that those resources went to the 2nd Corps?

 2        A.   Yes.  That is what it confirms, precisely, because there's an

 3     order saying that it should go through the central logistics base Grude,

 4     and we can see that it is from the Ministry of Defence of Croatia.

 5        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's stay with this document for just a moment.  It

 6     says here for the requirements of the 115th HVO Brigade Zrinjski, and it

 7     is signed by Edin -- or rather, it's taken over by Edin Delibegovic, the

 8     MTS was taken over by Edin Delibegovic, and here you said that he was a

 9     logistics man of the 2nd Corps; am I right?

10        A.   I'm not sure what document you're referring to.

11        Q.   1090 is the one we're talking about, and it's just been called up

12     on e-court.  Do you have it on your screen.

13        A.   No mention is made of the 115th Brigade there.

14        Q.   1090 on e-court.  Perhaps you're looking at the wrong document.

15     HVO, the 115th Brigade.

16        A.   No, no mention is made of the 115th Brigade there.  I'm sorry.

17        Q.   It says for the HVO the 115th Brigade.  Look at the next document

18     then, please.  It says 10 -- I do apologise.  It's my mistake.  1091.

19     Yes, my mistake.  It's a mistake on the document.  1091; is that right?

20     That it was going to the 115th Brigade and signed by the logistics

21     operator?

22        A.   Well, no mention is made of the 115th there, either.

23        Q.   1091 is the document number, as far as I can see.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you must be making

25     a mistake.  The witness is extremely precise.  115 isn't in there.

Page 38429

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes.  The mistake is on

 2     the document that I have before me, but let's move on.

 3        Q.   Look at 2D1091, please.  Is that the same method of procurement?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.  The document does show this method.

 5        Q.   Right.  Now look at 1095 the next document, please.

 6        A.   That's all right too.  The same principle applied.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Makar, you stated that had when it came to

 8     the Grude logistics base, part of the MTS arrived from Croatia, and the

 9     other part you took over directly from the warehouse and depot at Grude.

10     Now look at 2D1048, the next document, please.  2D1048.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can we have your comments on the first document so that we can

13     look at the rest?

14        A.   Yes.  This is the principle I talked about, directly for the

15     central logistics base in Grude from HVO resources from the 2nd Corps.

16        Q.   We have to go back a bit because it says the 107th Brigade

17     Gradacac.  Does that mean that regardless of that title that it all went

18     for the requirements of the 2nd Corps?

19        A.   Yes, right.

20        Q.   Let's now look at 2D1050, the next document, please.

21        A.   I can confirm that the same way of procurement was applied.  The

22     warehouse was Gabela, but it came under the control of the central

23     logistics base at Grude.

24        Q.   Mention is made here of the 107th and 108th Brigade, and the date

25     is rather important.  It is the 26th of February, just like in the

Page 38430

 1     previous document.  Well, the previous document was the 8th and now it's

 2     the 26th of February, 1993.  Right, Mr. Makar?

 3        A.   Right.

 4        Q.   The next document is 2D1049.

 5        A.   Yes, that's the same method of procurement.  We can see that from

 6     the document.

 7        Q.   Now, the next document is 2D1070, and in this document the date

 8     is the 26th of March, 1993.  What about those MTS?  Do they come from

 9     Grude for the requirements of the 2nd Corps?

10        A.   Yes, that's true.  We can see that the Main Staff gave permission

11     for the MTS to be taken from Grude and that they were sent to the

12     2nd Corps.

13        Q.   Now look at 2D1069 which contains two such dispatch notes.

14        A.   Yes, I confirm that the same thing holds true there, and the date

15     is the 27th of March.  This is an example of the same principle, MTS for

16     the 2nd Corps.

17        Q.   And the same applies to the 28th of March; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now look at 2D1059.  Here it says HVO Gradacac, 107th Brigade.

20     Yes, correct?

21        A.   Yes.  Correct.  I can see in the heading where the equipment is

22     coming from.  It's the same method of procurement I mentioned.

23        Q.   Well, let's look at 2D1043.  This approval was signed by

24     Mr. Praljak on the 20th of February, 1993.  Can you see any familiar

25     names here, and do you know whether this MTS really was sent for the

Page 38431

 1     needs of the 2nd Corps?

 2        A.   Your Honours, this document again confirms that this is how HVO

 3     materiel was dispatched to the 2nd Corps.  I know Mr. Esad Hanic.  He was

 4     the logistics man in the 107th HVO Brigade in Gradacac.

 5        Q.   And let's look at 2D1041, signed by Mr. Stojic, and it's

 6     addressed to Ismet Mehmedovic from Gradacac.  In other words, he is given

 7     safe conduct, and can you tell us whether this was also materiel sent for

 8     the 2nd Corps?

 9        A.   Yes.  This approval again shows how MTS was dispatched from the

10     HVO depot for the 2nd Corps.  I don't know Mr. Ismet Mehmedovic

11     personally.  It says here that he was from Gradacac, and I believe he

12     was.

13        Q.   Mr. Makar, mention is made in these documents of Mr. Praljak and

14     Mr. Stojic.  Was there an agreement with these gentlemen about the

15     procurement of MTS from the logistics base for the needs of the

16     2nd Corps?

17        A.   Your Honours, I've already spoken about this.  This agreement did

18     exist from the first contacts of Mr. Zeljko Knez, and later on until the

19     end of the war this is how the agreement was implemented.

20        Q.   Mr. Makar, you said that you personally participated in

21     procurement of MTS.  Please tell us briefly if you went to Mostar, how

22     many times did you go and at what times, approximately?  When?

23        A.   Your Honours, I did go to Mostar in order to make sure that

24     supplies of MTS were sent.  First -- the first time I went was in

25     February 1993 or thereabouts.  Then I visited Mostar again in March,

Page 38432

 1     about a month later, and my third visit took place sometime in late April

 2     or early May 1993.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, when you arrived in Mostar for the first time, as you

 4     say, in February 1993, who was with you?  On whose orders did you go

 5     there, and who did you meet when you arrived in Mostar?  With whom did

 6     you discuss the possibility of taking over delivery of MTS?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I was with two other officers from the 2nd Corps,

 8     Mr. Ivan Mijacevic from the 107th Brigade of the HVO, and Mr. Osman

 9     Puskar, the commander of Operative Group 2.  My departure to Mostar was

10     based on an order there commander, Hazim Sadic, and the purpose was to

11     ensure the delivery of MTS.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, when you arrived in Mostar, how long did you stay

13     there and with whom did you discuss procurement of MTS?

14        A.   Your Honours, I can't remember precisely how long we stayed,

15     maybe two or three days.  The team from the 2nd Corps which I mentioned

16     had talks with representatives of the HVO in Mostar, Mr. Praljak,

17     Mr. Stojic, Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Bozo Rajic.  I think that's it.

18        Q.   We can now look at several documents confirming what you've just

19     said.  2D1103.

20        A.   Your Honours, I remember this authorisation authorising me to

21     conduct talks and sign contracts regarding logistics on behalf of the

22     2nd Corps, and it was signed by the commander Hazim Sadic.

23        Q.   The next document is 2D1105.

24        A.   Your Honours, this sort of approval was always issued allowing us

25     to use an all-terrain vehicle and a car to go to Mostar.

Page 38433

 1        Q.   Could we have 2D1102.

 2        A.   Your Honours, this was evidently issued while we were there on

 3     the 23rd of February after we had conducted talks.  Mr. Bozo Rajic was

 4     the minister of defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Mostar,

 5     with its headquarters in Mostar, issued an order that I and the two

 6     officers who were with me be allowed safe passage and correct treatment,

 7     and that the person accompanying the MTS also be granted safe conduct.

 8     Based on our talks, we received certain quantities of MTS.  I think these

 9     were two or three truckloads which we brought to the 2nd Corps.

10        Q.   Could you now look at 2D1111.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I didn't understand

12     this document 1102.  It says Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of

13     Defence, Mostar.  The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had an office in

14     Mostar?

15        A.   Your Honour, the minister of defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     Mr. Bozo Rajic, was then in Mostar.  I don't know how this was regulated,

17     but in my view it shows that the minister of defence of the Republic of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina was where the Defence Department was, the Defence

19     Department of Herceg-Bosna, and this shows that this was not in dispute.

20     There was nothing contentious there.

21             If you allow me to go back, even now after the war certain

22     ministries are dislocated and are relocated elsewhere outside Sarajevo.

23     Certain sessions of the cabinet are also held outside the capital, but if

24     a minister is in another location, he's still the minister of that state.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking you this question

Page 38434

 1     because it's the first document of this type that I see, and this

 2     document seems to establish the fact that the government of Sarajevo had

 3     a post in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you say that the Ministry of Defence

 4     was relocated.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't assert this,

 6     but that was my understanding while I was there, and I see the same in

 7     this document.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you went to Mostar,

 9     did you pay a visit to Mr. Bozic Rajic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, absolutely.  I

11     mentioned that he attended all our talks.  And after our talks I spoke to

12     him separately.  Excuse me.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where was his office?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know precisely what office

15     belonged to whom, but after talking in a room where we were all together,

16     he invited me to a separate room, and I remember that on the door it said

17     "Minister of Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18     Mr. Bozic Rajic."  I even think he gave me his visiting card with that

19     title.  I think I might have kept it.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in his office was there a

21     flag from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't recall

23     that, because at the time what mattered to me was to obtain MTS.  So I

24     didn't pay attention to these details.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Ms. Nozica can

Page 38435

 1     continue.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, you say you were received by the minister of defence,

 4     Mr. Bozic Rajic.  Please clarify to Their Honours the following:  You had

 5     arrived from the 2nd Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Did you consider him to be the minister of defence of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Let's now look at document 2D1111, which also mentions Mr. Rajic.

11     And please clarify to Their Honours very briefly what this document

12     means.  It was signed by Hazim Sadic.  The date is the 20th of February,

13     1993, but we see when it was sent, and you will clarify what this is all

14     about.

15        A.   Your Honours, at these meetings in Mostar we talked with the

16     persons I've already mentioned, not only about the procurement of MTS but

17     also about certain issues which were of interest to both sides.  I was

18     authorised to engage in these talks on behalf of the Chief of Staff of

19     the Supreme Command of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20     on behalf of the commander of the 2nd Corps.  This is evident from the

21     preamble to this document where it says:

22             "Pursuant to an order issued by the chief of the staff of the

23     Supreme Command."

24             The document was compiled on my return to the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.

25     I personally composed the document, and you can see this if you look at

Page 38436

 1     page 2, in the lower left-hand corner you see the initials AM.  Those are

 2     my initials through the A.  The principle was for the compiler of the

 3     document to put his initials there, and the other set of initials

 4     belonged to the typist.  The document was actually a report from the

 5     2nd Corps sent to the staff of the Supreme Command, for the staff of the

 6     Supreme Command to be informed of what had been discussed and agreed at

 7     those meetings.

 8             The document was signed, of course, by the commander, because he

 9     signed every document.  And please pay attention to page 2, the lower

10     left-hand corner.  It was sent to the president of the Presidency of the

11     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, to the Chief of

12     Staff of the Supreme Command, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, to the commander of

13     the staff of the armed forces, Mr. Rasim Delic, and to the head of the

14     HVO Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Bruno Stojic, which was quite normal and natural

15     because we wanted to inform him of the way in which we had reported on

16     our talks.

17        Q.   Mr. Makar, if I understood you correctly, this reports are refers

18     to more than one meeting.  It's all the meetings and contacts you had in

19     the course of your visit; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You say here in item 1, 1(A):

22             "Representatives of the HVO of Herceg-Bosna are fully prepared to

23     consistently implement all the items of the agreement between the

24     Presidency president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and the president of the

25     Republic of Croatia, Mr. Franjo Tudjman."

Page 38437

 1             And under (C):

 2             "Representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosna are offering the

 3     formation of a Joint Command," and they have a proposal in this regard.

 4             But now I'd like to deal with logistics.  Further on in this

 5     document it says logistics (A).  Was this the main reason why you went to

 6     Mostar, to agree on procurement of MTS?  Am I right?

 7        A.   Yes, you are.

 8        Q.   It says here under (A):

 9             "After becoming familiar with the situation in the 2nd Corps,

10     where all of the ABiH and HVO units are under a Joint Command ..."

11             His Honour Judge Antonetti asked whether there was a single

12     document from which this is evident.  Can we confirm that this is such a

13     document?  It was sent both to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and to the Chief of

14     Staff, Sefer Halilovic, and it clearly shows that you say here that all

15     the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West.

17             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.  My apologies for standing up

18     and interrupting.  There have been a number of times where counsel's

19     questions have been leading, and I've not been commenting on them because

20     I know she has a number of documents to go through, but this last

21     question was I think a bit more than any of the others, and I would just

22     like to point it out for the Court.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, please be careful.

24     Thank you.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It was only leading

Page 38438

 1     because it was a follow-up question to His Honour's question, but I won't

 2     do that anymore.

 3        Q.   So would you comment on this, Witness.  Would you comment on this

 4     part of your report under 2(A)?

 5        A.   I can confirm that this manner of distribution --

 6        Q.   But that's not my question.  I'm asking you about logistics (A),

 7     the first part of your sentence.

 8             "After becoming familiar with the situation in the 2nd Corps

 9     where all of the units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the units of

10     the HVO are under a Joint Command."

11             Mr. Makar, did you confirm this at the meetings to the gentlemen

12     you met and through this document to all those to whom the document was

13     addressed?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   And it goes on to say:  "Where no conflicts have emerged to date.

16     Representatives of the HVO Herceg-Bosnia will enable safe passage of all

17     MTS logistics for the 2nd Corps.  The MTS acquired in the Republic of

18     Croatia, and Konjuh special purpose production will be delivered to the

19     HVO 107th Brigade allowing for the 2nd Corps to decide on the

20     distribution of the MTS to all of the corps units."

21             Does it follow from this part of your report -- does it confirm

22     what you said about the reasons why all the documents are addressed to

23     the 107th and 108th HVO brigades?

24        A.   Your Honours, this method of distribution or, rather, this method

25     of sending and distributing the MTS was agreed from the beginning to the

Page 38439

 1     end of the war and it was implemented in this way, and with this sentence

 2     inserted into our report which was delivered to all the addressees that

 3     you saw, we simply confirmed that this was so.

 4        Q.   Mr. Makar, here we see under B, C, D, and E, that different

 5     questions are considered all pertaining to logistics, but anyway, this is

 6     what you say was the -- were the conclusions of the meeting; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, when it comes to conclusion and proposals, are these

 9     proposals which emerged from your discussions with the gentlemen you had

10     meetings with?

11        A.   Yes, that's true.

12        Q.   Under 3(B) it says that joint commands of the armed forces should

13     be established as soon as possible.  Was that one of the proposals?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Under (H) it says that the BH Army -- OS of the BH Army and HVO

16     should be engaged to deblock Sarajevo, the corridor towards Orasje,

17     Srebrenica, and axes which the SSVK considers to be of importance.  What

18     is SSVK?

19        A.   The staff of the Supreme Command.

20        Q.   Right.  Now it says that the proposals and conclusions are

21     something that the 2nd corps command informed the Tuzla district

22     municipal Presidency about.  Can you confirm that?

23        A.   Yes, I can confirm that that was done because these were

24     important questions pertaining to their relations, and we would also

25     inform the Presidency of the district.

Page 38440

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar from your position and from your letters, we can see

 2     that when it came to MTS procurement and assessment and evaluation of

 3     what the armed forces and the BH Army should do together with the

 4     November, can we then conclude that you had similar positions that you

 5     shared with HVO representatives whom you encountered?

 6        A.   I'd just like to make a correction.  These are not my positions.

 7     I just conveyed in my reports everything that was agreed upon and which

 8     was the HVO's positions and the representative in Mostar and the

 9     2nd Corps command.

10        Q.   Mr. Makar, in view of the fact that you informed the Presidency

11     of the Municipal Assembly of the Tuzla district, that's why I asked you

12     that.  Did the Presidency support these positions, the positions set out

13     here with respect to a joint struggle against a common enemy and so on?

14        A.   Your Honours, the president of the district, not only did it

15     support these positions, but I went to attend these meetings with the

16     positions of the Presidency of the district and the representatives of

17     the religious communities, the Mufti, in fact, Mufti Lugovic and

18     Mr. Petar Metanovic [phoen] because we would have frequent meetings with

19     the district Presidency, and at those meetings we would be given

20     political guidelines for how we should act militarily.  And so it was

21     absolutely clear that the district Presidency held positions which I

22     conveyed to the HVO in Mostar and the feedback mechanism functioned.  I

23     would convey the positions from the meetings held.

24        Q.   You said, Mr. Makar, that sometime in March you went to Mostar

25     again; is that right?

Page 38441

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And now would you take a look at two documents.  2D1106 is the

 3     first one.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I didn't want to ask any

 5     question, but given that this document seems to be very important, I

 6     would like to go to point 1(E).  You are the drafter of this document,

 7     and while reading what you wrote, we have the following impression:  It

 8     seems to be suggested that all you need be regrouped, all the units from

 9     the ABiH that are in Central Bosnia.  Those units are leaning towards the

10     HVO and there is risk of a new conflict because you can already imagine

11     that some soldiers have already been kill or wounded.  And you seem to

12     suggest that it will be better to go towards a common enemy.  You do not

13     mention it, but we can think that these are the Serbs, and you make a

14     proposal, namely, to redeploy three brigades of the ABiH and one brigade

15     of the HVO to unblock Sarajevo.  So there is a very fine-tuned analysis

16     of the situation on the ground.

17             According to you, conflicts in Central Bosnia, I would like to

18     know whether you have any information on that.  Do you think that there

19     were -- or what were the reasons for those conflicts?  Was it conflicts

20     between the local commanders, or do you feel that those conflicts were

21     part of a much wider strategy?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, Your Honours, I

23     have a very precise opinion about this, and I worked for three years as a

24     scientific advisor of the institute for investigating war documents in

25     Amsterdam, and in my work there I dealt with many of these issues.  I

Page 38442

 1     consider, and I'm saying this as a soldier myself, we cannot speak of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina in general terms about the conflict between the HVO

 3     and the BH Army, because judging by the location of the conflict viewed

 4     territorially, what surface area that was, and judging by the forces

 5     involved in the conflict, that is to say brigades and units, it is

 6     obvious that this was not the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7             Now, whether we can characterise this as local conflicts in

 8     individual regions, I don't wish to go into that now.  However, the fact

 9     remains that the zone under the 2nd Corps of the BH Army was an area that

10     was the largest in Bosnia-Herzegovina, larger than any of the other

11     corps, and that numerically the 2nd Corps numbered about 80.000 soldiers,

12     and I include there members of the HVO Brigades.

13             Furthermore, had there not been conflicts in other areas such as

14     Sarajevo, well, I would agree with your assertion, and I, too, think that

15     all this depended on the locality and territory where the conflicts broke

16     out.

17             The second reason is this, and what I can say specifically for

18     the area of defence and territory of the Tuzla district:  We cooperated

19     closely with the organs of political power and authority of the

20     districts, municipalities, and as the corps command, we immediately

21     accepted the platform of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We had

22     the same views and the political organs and the corps command, shared

23     them.  The political situation in the area was such that the forces which

24     were in the majority were those -- well, no conflicts could have emerged

25     from those forces.

Page 38443

 1             Now, as far as the political leadership is concerned in the

 2     district and the municipality, at the beginning of the war we took over a

 3     motto which we applied throughout the war until the end of the war and

 4     that was this:  That while the war was going on, none of us had the right

 5     to any political activities, political action, and that our enemies were

 6     only the Chetniks.  And when I say the Chetniks, I mean -- and the corps

 7     command and the political leadership in the area, well, we always

 8     differentiated between the Chetniks and the Serbs.  As far as we were

 9     concerned, Chetniks were the ones who attacked us, those who attacked us,

10     and those who did not want to live in communality as we had been living

11     up until then.  They wished to destroy the values of the life -- the kind

12     of life we led up until then.

13             So that was our sole political goal in fighting, in combat, and

14     that that was the case in some other locations, too, parts of the

15     territory that you mentioned.  I do believe that there wouldn't have been

16     any conflicts there had not that been the case.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, Judge Antonetti showed you point (E) on page 1, and

19     I'd just like you to clarify whether those were your position or were

20     they positions which were put forward by the gentlemen that you talked to

21     in Mostar?

22        A.   Your Honours, I have not forgotten the question asked by

23     Judge Antonetti.  They are not my positions, it is not my position.  I

24     write this in my report which was signed by the corps command or, rather,

25     the commander of the corps command, and this report went to the staff of

Page 38444

 1     the Supreme Command, and it relates to the proposal made by the

 2     individuals I talked to in Mostar; that is to say, men from the HVO who

 3     proposed that we undertake a joint operation to deblock Sarajevo which

 4     was facing the most critical situation.  And we also proposed this:  That

 5     they set aside one HVO Brigade and that the staff of the Supreme Command

 6     should set aside three brigades from the BH Army for that same operation.

 7        Q.   I see.  Fine.  Now, Mr. Makar, this brings us to your second

 8     visit.  You said that in March 1993 you went to Mostar for the second

 9     time, and I'd like to ask you to look at the following documents, two

10     documents in actual fact, the first of which is 2D1106.  May we have your

11     comments?  What kind of document is this?  What is it about?

12        A.   Your Honours, this is precisely -- this is a permit signed by the

13     commander of the 2nd Corps, Hazim Sadic, and we can see that the deputy

14     commander signed for him, which was normal at that time, giving me

15     permission to go, to travel to Mostar.

16        Q.   The next document is 2D1110.

17        A.   Your Honour, this is a document and an event which I remember

18     very well.  During the discussions, Mr. Bruno Stojic, who signed this,

19     asked where we would spend the night.  I don't know what we said, but

20     anyway, he provided accommodation and food at the Citluk hotel in Citluk,

21     and that is what this document confirms.

22        Q.   Before we take a break, Mr. Makar, can you remember and explain

23     to us briefly what was the reason for your second visit?  What was the

24     main reason for your second visit?

25        A.   Well, the main reason was just like on the previous occasion,

Page 38445

 1     when I went and when the other officers of the corps went, to secure as

 2     much MTS as possible, as much as the HVO could set aside for the

 3     2nd Corps and to ensure free passage to the 2nd Corps zone.

 4        Q.   Did you discuss that during your second visit?

 5        A.   Yes, we did discuss that.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to

 7     another area where I need to show three documents in a row, I think that

 8     this would be a good time to take a break.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I didn't realise, but we

10     need to have a break now.  We shall have a 20-minute break.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to

15     Mr. Scott, who would like to say something.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you very much.

17     Mr. President, Your Honours, good afternoon to each of you.  Good

18     afternoon to counsel and all those in and around the courtroom.  Your

19     Honour, I thought it was appropriate to just to take one minute of the

20     Chamber's time, just as I listen to the testimony of this witness today

21     and other witnesses over the past several weeks to remind the Chamber of

22     a position that the Prosecution has repeatedly stated.  And I did pull

23     up, in one particular instance, this is a statement that we made on the

24     5th of April, 2007, during the testimony of Mr. Okun, and it's at

25     transcript page 16978, lest anyone wants to check me on it.  Transcript

Page 38446

 1     16978, and I say at the time on these issues about providing arms to

 2     various units and operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina:

 3              "In the course of the war from 1991 to 1995 there were any

 4     number of places where indeed the Croats and the Muslims were fighting

 5     together against the Serbs both in 1991 and 1992.  Again in 1994 and

 6     1995, and indeed in some places even in 1993 while they were fighting

 7     each other they were also fighting together against the Serbs in various

 8     parts of Bosnia."

 9             Now, that's been the Prosecution's position since this case

10     started.  This is one place where we cited on the 5th of April, 2007,

11     almost two years ago.  So as we seem to be spending an awful lot of time,

12     especially in a situation where we're frequently told that the Defence

13     don't have enough time to present their cases, that there isn't enough

14     time to present the Defence case, we're spending an awful lot of time on

15     matters that are not in dispute.

16             No one has ever said -- the Prosecution has never said that arms

17     were not provided by the Croats, the Bosnian Croats, to fight the common

18     enemy the Serbs in the area of Tuzla.  That has never been disputed, but

19     apparently we've spent the last two or three hours proving something

20     that's never been in dispute, as we said on a number of occasions,

21     including on the 5th of April, 2007.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's bring the witness into

23     the courtroom.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may respond very

25     briefly.  I'm glad my learned friend brought this up, but this has to do

Page 38447

 1     not only with supplies of weapons but also other issues.  The Defence is

 2     putting forward evidence showing that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in

 3     certain areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, had direct command over particular

 4     HVO units which were part of the HZ HB, and we showed this using both the

 5     example of Posavina and the example of Sarajevo, and now through this

 6     witness we are doing the same using the 2nd Corps as an example.

 7             I think this is highly significant, and I will continue my

 8     examination-in-chief because this does deal not -- this deals not just

 9     with supplies of weapons.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Go ahead.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Makar, you said that in late April or early May you visited

14     Mostar again.  Can you explain to Their Honours with whom you met in

15     Mostar and what happened in the course of your third visit?

16        A.   My third visit was connected exclusively to the very difficult

17     situation.  There were fierce attacks in the area of the 2nd Corps, and

18     we had a great need for MTS.  So that was the main task I had when going

19     to Mostar.

20             I spoke to Mr. Stojic, Mr. Praljak, the same men I've already

21     mentioned, Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Rajic.

22        Q.   Mr. Makar, please look at 2D1107 now.

23        A.   Excuse me -- sorry.  Yes, here it is.  Yes.

24        Q.   Can you clarify to Their Honours?  This is a safe conduct pass.

25     It also mentions your name.  Can you tell us from whom you received this

Page 38448

 1     MTS and whether it was for the needs of the 2nd Corps?

 2        A.   Your Honours, I can confirm that this was MTS which I received

 3     from the HVO in Mostar and which I brought to Tuzla, but I had a lot of

 4     problems along the way.

 5        Q.   Mr. Makar, can we now look at 2D1108.

 6        A.   Yes.  This document is linked to the previous document.  It's the

 7     dispatch notes for the MTS which I took and brought to Tuzla.

 8        Q.   The date is the 1st of May, 1993; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   Mr. Makar, can you confirm to Their Honours -- or, rather, tell

11     them the following:  Do you know whether the MTS mentioned in these notes

12     we have shown so far sent to the 2nd Corps, whether it was paid for?

13        A.   Excuse me, are you referring to the MTS mentioned in the last two

14     documents?

15        Q.   My question is general.  The MTS that you took delivery of, was

16     it paid for?

17        A.   No, it was not paid for.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you know whether the MTS obtained directly from the

19     Ministry of Defence in Zagreb were paid for in full?

20        A.   Your Honours, the MTS I said had been received from the Ministry

21     of Defence were paid for only in part, but in part they were sent without

22     payment.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, before we move on to a new topic, can you confirm,

24     based on all these notes we've seen today which reached the 2nd Corps by

25     various methods, can you confirm whether this MTS actually reached the

Page 38449

 1     2nd Corps of the BH Army?

 2        A.   Yes, I can, because I was at the head of the staff which, due to

 3     combat activities in the corps for which it was most responsible, had to

 4     know what MTS had arrived and how to distribute it.  I was therefore

 5     authorised by the corps commander to monitor, together with the logistics

 6     organs, everything that arrived in the corps and how it was distributed.

 7        Q.   Mr. Makar, besides these supplies procured for the 2nd Corps of

 8     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO units subordinated to the

 9     2nd Corps in Tuzla, did anyone else provide MTS for your needs?

10        A.   Your Honours, I've already stated in my reply to the question as

11     to how we obtained MTS, that this was done through a rather large number

12     of people.  In addition to the people in the logistics centre in Zagreb

13     and some officers primarily from the logistics of the 2nd Corps, these

14     people went off to obtain MTS.  We also had a special assistant who was

15     the corps commander for procurement whom I've already mentioned.  This

16     was Mr. Edin Delibegovic.  He procured most of the MTS.

17        Q.   Mr. Makar let's look at 2D1077 now.  Can you tell Their Honours

18     the following.  This is a table showing MTS purchased.

19        A.   On page 2, Your Honours, I see the name of Fadil Muhic.  I know

20     Fadil Muhic very well.  We still see a lot of each other after the war.

21     He was in that logistics centre in Zagreb, and as far as I can see this

22     document shows that this is actually a report by Fadil Muhic about all

23     the MTS purchased for the 107th Gradacac Brigade in October 1992 up to

24     December 1993, and in the title it says, "... bought and forwarded to the

25     brigade."

Page 38450

 1             I saw such reports during the war.  This was MTS which arrived in

 2     the corps and was then distributed to where it was most needed.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, let's look at 2D1078 now.  This is a financial

 4     report --

 5        A.   Yes, I see it.  Concerning the procurement of the MTS for the

 6     needs of the 2nd Corps.  And on page 3 it says, Assistant Commander Edin

 7     Delibegovic.  I've already mentioned him.  Evidently this is a report

 8     about how he as an assistant for procurement spent the funds he had

 9     available to procure weapons.

10        Q.   Mr. Makar, before your testimony here, did you have occasion to

11     learn anything about this purchase of MTS?

12        A.   Yes.  I knew about the purchase of this MTS.  I also knew about

13     some of the ways in which funds were obtained, but I'd like to draw

14     attention to the following here:  There's an error on page 3.  It says

15     "Tuzla, 12th of December, 1992," but I can see from the text that this

16     materiel was obtained in 1993.  So obviously this is an error.  He is

17     submitting a report in February 1993.

18        Q.   Now that we're on page 3, does it follow from this that this MTS

19     was procured from the Republic of Croatia?  Was it obtained there?  Look

20     at the last paragraph.

21        A.   Yes.  From the preceding text and especially the passage you

22     pointed out, it's evident that the MTS was obtained through the assistant

23     minister of the Republic of Croatia, of the minister of defence, that is.

24        Q.   It says here that this -- the payments will be dealt with at the

25     level of the two republics.  Does this refer to the Republic of Croatia

Page 38451

 1     and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   This follows not only from this document, but that's how it was.

 3     Very often, as we did not have funds available, we would deliver salt

 4     from the Tuzla salt factory, and very often from Sarajevo we received

 5     requests for certain quantities of salt to be sent in lieu of payment

 6     due, payments due.

 7        Q.   There are a number of attachments mentioned to this document.

 8     I'll read them out and just tell me whether these are the documents

 9     referred to here.  It's 2D1079, please.

10        A.   Yes.  Evidently this document shows part of the MTS mentioned in

11     this financial section.

12        Q.   The next document is 2D1080.

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, I confirm that that is also part of this report.

14        Q.   2D1081.

15        A.   Yes.  This too.  You can see that Mr. Delibegovic took delivery

16     of the MTS.

17        Q.   2D1084.

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, this too.

19        Q.   2D1086.

20        A.   Yes.  And it says here in what amount the MTS has been paid for.

21        Q.   2D1087.

22        A.   This document shows what MTS was obtained and how much has been

23     paid for.

24        Q.   2D1089 [as interpreted].  Is this a final summary, an overview?

25     2D1098 is the right number.

Page 38452

 1        A.   Your Honours, this is evidently a document providing an overview,

 2     and it shows what has been paid for and the various segments are

 3     mentioned here.

 4        Q.   2D1097 finally.

 5        A.   Well, this is not really legible.

 6        Q.   This document was signed by Mr. Delibegovic on the 8th of March,

 7     and he refers to the MTS mentioned in document 2D1078.  And I wish to

 8     draw your attention to item 2 where it says:

 9             "The materiel was purchased from the end of August, 1992 until

10     February 1993.  Practically this is a large quantity of MTS, one of the

11     largest quantities obtained for the needs of the 2nd Corps.

12             "The transport of MTS was organised 11 times, and most of the MTS

13     was brought to this area."

14             It says that:  "Goods are sometimes held up in Grude or Kiseljak,

15     but all these purchases and transport were organised by me with the

16     consent of the commander of the 2nd Corps."

17             My question is:  Is it evident from this document that this MTS

18     was purchased from the end of August 1992, until February 1993, and as

19     Mr. Delibegovic says, this -- these goods, almost all of them reached the

20     area, and we'll deal with the problems later on.

21        A.   Yes.  This document confirms the time-frame, but I wish to make a

22     correction to what you said.  It should say practically this is a great

23     majority of the MTS.  This was most of the MTS that ever reached the

24     2nd Corps.  And it says that there were 11 transports, and the summary we

25     have just seen is attached to this document.

Page 38453

 1        Q.   Mr. Makar, did the 2nd Corps ever obtain any other MTS arriving

 2     from the logistics centres of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  There was MTS coming from the logistics centres of the

 4     ABiH and from the logistics centres of various brigades and various

 5     municipalities had their logistics centres in Zagreb.  Part of this MTS

 6     was donated and part of it was allocated.

 7        Q.   Let's look at 2D1099.  Can you explain to Their Honours what this

 8     is about?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I remember this document very well, because it

10     deals with a special case.  This refers to the donation of a large amount

11     of communications equipment.  It was donated by a company from

12     Liechtenstein, and it was sent through the BH Army logistics centre in

13     Zagreb with a final destination Tuzla and Gradacac, and it was sent to

14     Mr. Zeljko Knez, the commander of the 2nd Corps of the ABiH, and

15     Mr. Ivan Miocevic, and I know the signature of Muradif Pajt, because I

16     sent my own communications chief to Zagreb to take delivery of this

17     equipment.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, do you recall whether any MTS was obtained for the

19     needs of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina when there were offensives going

20     on on the territory of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     launched by the Yugoslav Army and the Serbian units in March and April

22     1993?

23        A.   I've already mentioned that such offensives and fierce fighting

24     on the territory of the 2nd Corps were practically ongoing, continuous

25     throughout the war, and there was a fierce attack in the area of defence

Page 38454

 1     of the 2nd Corps, and we needed fresh MTS, which was the reason I visited

 2     Mostar for the third time, as I've already explained, when I brought back

 3     a large quantity of MTS.  At the time, this MTS saved the situation,

 4     which was very critical.

 5             I know that there were huge problems during the offensive

 6     conducted in the area of Srebrenica and that considerable amounts of MTS

 7     were required.

 8        Q.   Could you now look at 2D1100.  Have you found it?

 9        A.   [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL: [Interpretation] There is no English translation.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  We did not have an

12     interpretation, and I think there is another microphone on in the

13     courtroom.

14        Q.   Can you repeat what you said after you saw document 2D1100?  Can

15     you repeat your answer, please?

16        A.   Your Honours, it is clearly evident from this document that the

17     HVO approved safe conduct and a considerable quantity of MTS -  when I

18     say "considerable quantity," I'm referring to the amounts I see in this

19     document - to be sent to Srebrenica, because it says that the materials

20     are to be transported on the Grude-Srebrenica route, and the details of

21     the trucks are listed.  The date is the 7th of April, 1993, which is when

22     the situation in that area was critical.

23        Q.   Mr. Makar, can you confirm that this MTS was received by the

24     2nd Corps as you know that this was a difficult period in Srebrenica?

25        A.   Well, we monitored that part of the war theatre closely at the

Page 38455

 1     time, and in spite of our physical distance, we had constant

 2     communication with them.  So I do know that this MTS arrived at its

 3     destination.

 4        Q.   Mr. Makar, we spoke about the problems -- or, rather, we

 5     mentioned that there were some problems as seen in previous documents in

 6     the transports of this MTS to Tuzla.  At the time that you went to bring

 7     back MTS, and also when others brought the MTS to its destination, were

 8     there any problems and, if so, what were the problems.

 9        A.   Your Honours, I could speak about that at length, but probably

10     time would not allow that.  I myself had problems on the road when I was

11     leading individual convoys, but in conclusion I can say that the problems

12     stemmed, and I can say this as a military expert, from the fact that in

13     this war a firm military organisation had not yet been established in

14     which lower-ranking commanders have to obey orders coming from high

15     er-ranking commanders without fail.  Very often local commanders, both in

16     the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would sometimes hold up

17     convoys or even confiscate some MTS from the convoys which passed

18     through.

19        Q.   Could we now look at 2D1116.  And this is letter from the HVO

20     Mostar Defence Department to Mr. Bruno Stojic in person sent by

21     Mr. Sadic, and here he discusses these problems and speaks of the needs

22     of the 2nd Corps and their other logistical needs; right?

23        A.   Your Honours, this document, looking at the date which is the 4th

24     of March, 1993, is the result of a discussion I had with the HVO in

25     Mostar during my first visit there, which was in February.  At the time,

Page 38456

 1     we had agreed on the communication and that we should have communication

 2     between ourselves talking about problems linked -- problems occurring on

 3     a local level with respect to MTS, whichever side experienced them.  And

 4     so my commander in war, Mr. Hazim Sadic, sent to Mr. Bruno Stojic, as I

 5     see here, sent him information and reports about the problems for us to

 6     be able to solve them.

 7        Q.   Mr. Makar, in point 6 of this document, as you've just said,

 8     Mr. Sadic is suggesting to Mr. Stojic that he send in his requests and

 9     state his problems so that they could be solved.  Now, my question to you

10     is this:  To the best of your knowledge, the problems that occurred with

11     respect to transport, were they solved?

12        A.   Your Honours, I can confirm that the problems were solved on the

13     basis of agreement either in writing, as the case was here, and

14     communication was two-way, and the problems would be solved sometimes by

15     picking up the phone, on the phone if something was urgent, through the

16     communications links.

17        Q.   Now let's look at 2D1101, the next document, please.  This is a

18     letter from Mr. Sefer Halilovic, with the same date, referring to the

19     previous letter, which was document 2D1116, and here we have -- well, it

20     says the command of the 4th Corps, and it says that Arif Pasalic, the

21     commander of the 4th Corps, confirms this.

22             Now, can you explain why there are two stamps on this letter from

23     Mr. Sefer Halilovic?

24        A.   Your Honours, yes, I can explain that.  This document, 1116, the

25     one we looked at previously, was sent to the Supreme Command Staff, to

Page 38457

 1     Mr. Sefer Halilovic as well, and after that he sent a letter of his own

 2     to the Croatian Defence Council, Mostar, to Mr. Bruno Stojic and

 3     Mr. Milivoj Petkovic.

 4             Now, for reasons of military organisation and the communications

 5     systems organisation, the Supreme Command Staff communicated with the

 6     command of the 4th Corps in Mostar.  And it's quite obvious that this

 7     letter reached the 4th Corps command and that at the bottom there we have

 8     the signature of the commander of the 4th Corps, Mr. Arif Pasalic, and

 9     that he was given the assignment and carried it out of sending the letter

10     to the HVO of Mostar.

11        Q.   What is important in this document, and I'd like to draw your

12     attention to that, is paragraph 3 where Mr. Sefer Halilovic says as

13     follows:

14             "I would also like to take this opportunity to ask you if you

15     have any type of ammunition and other MTS, especially artillery

16     ammunition and POB ..."

17             Will you tell us what that is?

18        A.   Anti-armour combat is POB.

19        Q.   "To lend them to us or give them to us, and we will remunerate

20     you -- or, rather, in exchange for financial cooperation."

21             And then in the next paragraph -- or, rather, in the previous

22     paragraph he deals with the situation in Srebrenica.  He says:

23             "Please grant all the requests stated in Mr. Sadic's letter as

24     soon as possible because the fate of more than 60.000 people in the free

25     territory of Srebrenica depends on this."

Page 38458

 1             Now, Mr. Sefer Halilovic refers to the common foe, common enemy.

 2     The document is dated the 4th of March, 1993.

 3             And now, Mr. Makar, we have seen the document.  It will come up

 4     on your screen again.  It is 2D1100 of the 7th of April, 1993, when you

 5     said that the Main Staff gave permission for resources for Srebrenica,

 6     because we can see quite obviously that in April 1993 the Main Staff, in

 7     reacting to these demands, permitted the resources to go to Srebrenica.

 8        A.   Yes.  The document has just come up on the screen.  We've already

 9     discussed it, and looking at the date I think it is obvious that it was a

10     reaction from the Main Staff of the HVO to the request made by

11     Sefer Halilovic.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, you discussed the problems that occurred in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina accompanying the transport of these convoys and

14     passage of the convoys.

15             Let's look at a joint document now.  It is 2D1037, and they are

16     problems which occurred in territory controlled by the BH Army.  This is

17     a piece of information from the Security Sector of the Defence

18     Department, and I'm going to ask you about some of the facts stipulated

19     in this report, whether you know of them.

20             This is a document dated the 30th of January, 1993, and it speaks

21     of 54 trucks, materiel which at the end of November and beginning of

22     December for the requirements of the 107th HVO Brigade of Gradacac set

23     out from Zagreb.

24             From this document, and let me just tell you briefly about this,

25     but anyway, it emerges and follows that 30 trucks never arrived in

Page 38459

 1     Gradacac and that the information that the person received, the person

 2     was called Ivan Roso, according to what he learned, the information he

 3     received, those trucks allegedly were unloaded in the logistics base in

 4     Visoko.

 5             Now, Mr. Makar, at the end it says what quantities -- the

 6     quantities concerned.

 7             Now, do you know -- on the third page it says 30 trucks were

 8     certainly unloaded in the logistics centre of the BH Army in Visoko, and

 9     most probably they were distributed to the units of the BH Army in the

10     field.

11             Now, did you -- and the source of this information here is

12     Mr. Zeljko Knez.

13             Do you know what things like this happened, that is to say, that

14     the MTS that was sent for the requirements of the 2nd Corps somehow

15     turned up at the logistics centre in Visoko where they were then

16     distributed to any unit of the BH Army?

17        A.   Your Honours, I remember this case very well, because it was

18     January 1993, which was the time that I spent in the Gradacac area where

19     fierce fighting was going on, and that the Chetniks threatened to enter

20     the town of Gradacac.  So the situation was very critical, especially

21     with respect to the MTS situation, and we were expecting this particular

22     convoy to arrive.

23             Now, when less than half the convoy arrived, I remember that I

24     contacted the commander, who was Mr. Zeljko Knez at the time, and asked

25     him what had happened to the rest.  I don't know what was done, but

Page 38460

 1     anyway, later on I also learnt that that part of the convoy had probably

 2     ended up in the logistics centre of the BH Army in Visoko.

 3        Q.   Mr. Makar, I'm going to show you a few documents now which refer

 4     to a convoy that we can call the double-bottom convoy to be able to

 5     identify it better.  So we'll call it that will provisionally.  I'm going

 6     to show you the documents.  I know that you were involved in this, but

 7     perhaps before you see the documents you could explain to the Trial

 8     Chamber what this is all about.

 9        A.   Your Honours, this document tells me about something that I was

10     very familiar with.

11        Q.   Just a moment.  Well, then I'll give you the number of the

12     document.  2D1112 is the number.  Are you looking at that document?

13        A.   No, I'm not.  I beg your pardon.  Yes, I've found it now, 1112.

14        Q.   All right.  Now you can continue and tell us what you know about

15     it.

16        A.   It is a permit to Mr. Avdo Mesic to go and fetch some resources

17     for the 2nd Corps, and the date is 1993.

18        Q.   All right.  Now did you comment on 2D1113, the next document?

19        A.   Your Honours, that is a document which follows this first one and

20     refers to the individuals who will go with Mr. Avdo Mesic to procure MTS.

21        Q.   Mr. Makar, now look at 2D1114, the next document, which is a

22     report, but before we comment on that report, can you briefly tell the

23     Trial Chamber what happened when Mr. Mesic, Avdo Mesic, went pursuant to

24     these permits?

25        A.   Your Honours, I've already said that on the basis of an agreement

Page 38461

 1     with the HVO in Mostar, we had a very proper relationship in that we

 2     endeavoured to adhere to what we had agreed upon.

 3             Now, in this particular case, Mr. Mesic, Mr. Avdo Mesic, whom I

 4     personally know, engaged in some improper acts -- or, rather, he made a

 5     double-bottom to a truck, a false bottom, and in that false bottom he

 6     tried to transport some MTS that had not been listed on the authorised

 7     list.

 8             As far as I know, at certain check-points along the way in the

 9     area under the control of the HVO of Mostar, those trucks were stopped

10     and searched, and they found what was happening, and so that's the

11     problem.

12        Q.   Can you explain to the Trial Chamber who compiled this report and

13     on what occasion?

14        A.   This is Mr. Avdo Mesic's report upon his return to Tuzla, because

15     most probably the corps command asked for a report, because certain acts

16     had been committed which had violated the agreement.  And so Mr. Mesic

17     has written a long report reporting on the situation.

18        Q.   Mr. Makar, were you personally informed about what had happened

19     with this convoy and with that false bottom or double-bottom?

20        A.   Yes, I was informed about that.  I learnt about the incident when

21     it happened, and the commander charged me with going to deal with the

22     situation.

23        Q.   Let's look at 2D1115 now, please, which is the next document.

24     And my question to you is this:  Did some organs conduct an investigation

25     into this incident and were the facts established as to how this came

Page 38462

 1     about?

 2        A.   Your Honours, this, as far as I can see, well, there's no heading

 3     there so we don't see who compiled the report and there's no signature

 4     either, but in general terms this could have been a report from our

 5     security organs, and the commander had probably given them the assignment

 6     of investigating the matter concerning Mr. Mesic's convoy and checking

 7     out the facts from the report that he had sent in.

 8             As far as I can see, at the end of this report it was addressed

 9     to the Municipal Assembly of Tuzla, Mr. Selim Beslagic; the Tuzla

10     district, Mr. Esad Hadzic; the security organs, one copy, of course; and

11     another copy to the Chief of Staff.  That is to say, it reached me.

12        Q.   Mr. Makar, you can in fact confirm that you received this report,

13     a copy of it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Not to dwell on the details, but it follows from this report that

16     Mr. Avdo Mesic, without permission from the 2nd Corps, attempted, along

17     with the MTS that had been approved, to bring in certain MTS that had not

18     been approved; right?

19        A.   Well, from this report that I received from the security organs

20     that would be the conclusion, yes.

21        Q.   Just two details.  On page 2, under number 12 it says:

22             "In view of this problem, the Chief of Staff of the 2nd Corps has

23     been called to Mostar, Mr. Andjelko Makar, who along with great efforts

24     managed to put the mistakes right, and we managed to procure --"

25             That's on page 2.

Page 38463

 1        A.   Yes, I've found it.  Please continue.

 2        Q.   "He managed to smooth over the mistakes made Avdo Mesic, and we

 3     purchased significant quantities of MTS for the 2nd Corps which were

 4     brought to Tuzla with regular documentation and no problems."

 5             And your name is mentioned here.  So does that refer to your

 6     trips to Mostar and the MTS quantities that you procured for the

 7     2nd Corps?

 8        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.  I can confirm that I was in Mostar.  I

 9     did go to Mostar, and on route I met part of the convoy that had been

10     allowed to pass through because it had all the rights papers and there

11     was no problem.  And in talking to the people in Mostar, I managed to

12     secure, as it says here, considerable quantities of MTS.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since it's exactly

14     7.00 now, can we adjourn for the day, and then I'll see how much time I

15     have left and continue tomorrow?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have about 18 minutes left.

17     So as you know, we shall resume tomorrow at 14.30.  So we'll start 15

18     minutes late.

19             Witness, until tomorrow, please have no contact whatsoever with

20     anyone regarding your testimony here, and we will have the pleasure to

21     see you again tomorrow at 2.30.

22             I wish everyone a good evening.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day

25                           of March, 2009, at 2.30 p.m.