Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38678

 1                           Wednesday, 1 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Wednesday.  Good morning to the accused, to the Defence

15     counsel, and to all the OTP representatives.  Good morning to all the

16     people assisting us, the usher, the Registrar, and the interpreters.

17             The Trial Chamber is going to hand down an oral decision by a

18     majority of views, and I will point out what my opinion is in this

19     matter.

20             Oral decision on the request for the addition of two items to the

21     65 ter list of the Stojic Defence.

22             On the 30th of March, 2009, the Stojic Defence filed a request

23     for the addition of two items to the 65 ter exhibit list, 2D02025 and

24     2D02026, with a view to submitting them to Witness Dragutin Cehulic.  The

25     Prosecution and the other Defence teams did not file any objection to

Page 38679

 1     such request.

 2             The Trial Chamber recalls its practice; namely, that any document

 3     requested to be added in a lately fashion must be essential to the party

 4     wishing to submit the said document to the witness.  In the view of the

 5     majority of the Judges of the Trial Chamber, the two documents, which are

 6     a compilation of other documents, are of very relative significance, in

 7     that they pertain to the distribution of military equipment in Croatia in

 8     June 1992, which is a topic not challenged by the Prosecution.  The Trial

 9     Chamber has already heard enough evidence on the matter and, therefore,

10     decides, by a majority of Judges, to dismiss the request.

11             My own dissenting opinion is based on two grounds, one having to

12     do with the form and the other one goes to the merits of the request.

13     Regarding the former, I note that the two documents or exhibits, 2D02025

14     and 2D02026, are, in fact, but a compilation of a document already

15     admitted into evidence, among others as requested by the Prosecution

16     under P262 and P267, it being noticed that the above exhibits pertain to

17     delivery of weapons in 1992.

18             As to the merits, unlike the majority of the Judges of the

19     Trial Chamber, I am of the view that this topic is essential, and the

20     relevance is not a relative one, as was said in the majority decision;

21     but it is absolutely irrelevant [as interpreted] because it goes to the

22     very heart of the notion of joint criminal enterprise.  Therefore, as far

23     as I am concerned, I saw no obstacle to the said exhibits being admitted,

24     because last Monday we discussed the -- we discussed basically identical

25     documents.  It would be paradoxical if, on Monday, we had a given

Page 38680

 1     situation and then on the -- on Wednesday we would be presented with a

 2     different situation.  So this was my view in the matter.

 3             Registrar, I forgot you.  I know you had an IC number for us.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 5             2D has submitted its list of documents to be tendered through

 6     Witness Milos, Mario.  This list shall be given Exhibit IC00973, and it

 7     has also submitted its objections to the Prosecution's IC list of

 8     exhibits tendered through Witness Andjelko Makar.  This list shall be

 9     given Exhibit IC00974.

10             Thank you, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  I

12     believe Judge Prandler wants to make a correction.

13             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I would only like to say that most probably

14     there was a mistake in translation.  In the 20, 21 lines, where you said

15     "but it is absolutely irrelevant because it goes to the very heart of the

16     notion of a joint criminal enterprise."  I believe you would have liked

17     to say that "but it is absolutely relevant because it goes to the very

18     heart of the notion of the JCE," so therefore I believe that it should be

19     corrected.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Prandler, for

22     noting that I, indeed, said that it was absolutely relevant.

23             I believe the Prosecutor wants to say something.

24             Good morning.

25             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone in

Page 38681

 1     and around the courtroom.

 2             Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to make a record

 3     concerning the evidence expected to be given by the witness, Mr. Cehulic,

 4     today, according to the summary that the Stojic Defence has provided.

 5             The Prosecution's position is essentially the same as its

 6     position stated this past Monday regarding Mr. Milos, as stated by

 7     Prosecutor, Mr. Pieter Kruger.  We reiterate again, Your Honours, that

 8     the Prosecution does not dispute that arms were shipped from or through

 9     Croatia to or for the ABiH at some times and in some places in the BiH

10     during the period of 1992 to 1994.  That is not disputed.

11             In the past few weeks, starting with Mr. Buljan, the Trial

12     Chamber has heard a number of witnesses talking about topics, times and

13     locations having very little or no relevance to this case.

14             For example, Mr. Buljan testified regarding pension benefits paid

15     to Muslim HVO soldiers in the Posavina.  Mr. Majic testified about MTS

16     sent from the HVO to the ABiH to areas where the ABiH and the HVO

17     cooperated against the Serbs and at significant times of that

18     cooperation, that was Mostar, Posavina, and Sarajevo.  Mr. Makar last

19     week testified about MTS received by the ABiH 2nd Corps from the HVO

20     primarily in the area under its control, including the Posavina corridor.

21     And this past Monday, Mr. Milos testified generically about Croatia

22     sending MTS to the ABiH without any specific information actually related

23     to this case.  He did not identify any shipments going at any relevant

24     time to any relevant place charged in the indictment.

25             According to the Rule 65 ter summary --

Page 38682

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for slowing down.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 3             According to the Rule 65 ter summary, the next witness, today's

 4     witness, will testify to exactly the same as Monday's witness; that is,

 5     from 1992 to 1994, this witness issued MTS upon orders with a destination

 6     of ABiH.  He will explain the procedure --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down.  Thank you.

 8             MS. WEST:  -- and show the delivery slips.  Indeed, the 65 ter

 9     summaries from Monday's witness and today's witness are identical.

10             With respect, Your Honours, the expected testimony of this

11     witness is irrelevant to the indictment and does not relate to or advance

12     the search for truth as to any issue in dispute in this case.  The

13     Prosecution, therefore, objects to receiving this evidence.

14             Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your objection is

16     now on record.

17             Ms. Nozica.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given the statement

19     made by the Prosecutor, which is the same statement that we received on

20     Monday, the statement being the reason for us to go through another

21     selection process of our documents again, documents that we'll be showing

22     the witness; nevertheless and in view of the Prosecutor's objection, I

23     would like to refer to what Your Honour Judge Antonetti told us today

24     about the Chamber's ruling on admission into evidence.

25             We believe documents to be highly relevant for the joint criminal

Page 38683

 1     enterprise.  We believe the testimonies of all these witnesses to be

 2     highly relevant, precisely in the light of the joint criminal enterprise

 3     theory.  Therefore, we believe the objection to be entirely unfounded.

 4             Apart from that, I do have to say one thing for the transcript,

 5     to make sure it's recorded.  There is a whole series of witnesses who

 6     have been heard on this matter, as the Prosecutor claims, but they never

 7     spoke about the weapons being sent only to areas in which the BH Army and

 8     the HVO were not clashing.  Quite the contrary, in fact.  We have

 9     produced documents from the relevant time, while clashes were continuing

10     between the BH Army and the HVO.  Likewise, we have produced documents

11     that were sent to the BH Army, to their Visoko Logistics Base; and,

12     therefore, could be distributed to the 3rd Corps or the 4th Corps in an

13     area in which the HVO and the BH Army were clashing, this being the

14     reason that we believe the OTP's objection to be entirely unfounded.

15             Nevertheless, my understanding is the OTP objection is about

16     Mario Milos, Witness Mario Milos.  The Chamber overruled this objection.

17     Therefore, I believe we can commence the examination of our next witness

18     today.  The relevance is the same, the only difference being this witness

19     worked in a different depot, but his evidence will be essentially

20     focusing on the same subject as Mario Milos's.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, could all unnecessary

22     microphones be switched off, please.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] In view of the testimony of

24     Mario Milos and all the documents that we showed him, we reduced the

25     number of documents that we would be showing this witness in order to

Page 38684

 1     avoid a petition.  For that reason, we believe that we shall be able to

 2     keep this witness's evidence shorter than initially envisaged.

 3             Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, usher, have the witness

 5     brought in.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 8             Please state your surname, first name, and date of birth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragutin Cehulic.  The 8th of May,

10     1966.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

12     occupation, sir?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am retired.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Retired from the army?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was your rank when you

17     went into retirement?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was sergeant first class.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, have you had an

20     opportunity to testify before a court of law as to the events that took

21     place in the former Yugoslavia or is this going to be the first time?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

24     declaration handed over to you by the usher.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 38685

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS: DRAGUTIN CEHULIC

 3                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please be

 5     seated.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, let me give you some brief

 8     explanations.

 9             You have been called by the Stojic Defence, and you are going to

10     answer questions put to you first by Ms. Nozica.  You must have met with

11     her yesterday as part of the proofing session, preparing for this

12     testimony.  Once she has finished asking questions, it may be that the

13     other Defence counsel have questions for you.  You have four Judges in

14     front of you.  If they think it's necessary, they too may ask questions

15     of you on specific topics dealt with by Ms. Nozica.  You have

16     Madam Prosecutor on your right-hand side.  She too may cross-examine you

17     if she deems it necessary.

18             Do endeavour to be precise in the answers you're about to give to

19     the questions put to you by Ms. Nozica.  If you fail to understand any

20     question, do not hesitate to ask the one calling -- asking the questions

21     to rephrase it.

22             So these were my words of introduction to enable the testimony to

23     take place as smoothly as possible.

24             You have the floor, you may proceed, Ms. Nozica.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 38686

 1                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 2        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Cehulic.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4        Q.   I will briefly read back to you your personal details, such as

 5     may be of relevance to your examination, and then we'll move on to the

 6     examination itself.

 7             It was in 1985 that you graduated from the secondary school.  On

 8     the 27th of July, 1991, you joined the Croatian Army as a volunteer;

 9     right?

10        A.   Right.

11        Q.   As of early May 1992, you worked as a warehouse-keeper in the

12     Precko depot in Zagreb; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   As of late 1993 --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  Sorry for

16     interrupting you, Ms. Nozica.

17             You've just said something that was confirmed by the witness, but

18     I would like some light to be shed on this.

19             Witness, Ms. Nozica told you that you joined the army as a

20     volunteer on the 22nd of July, 1991, and she asked you whether that was

21     right and you confirmed it; line 11, page 9.  When I heard this, a

22     question came to my mind.  How is it that you were a volunteer whilst,

23     normally speaking, in a country soldiers are mobilised, they are not

24     being asked to be volunteers, they are mobilised into the army?  Why were

25     you not mobilised?  Why were you a volunteer?  Could you explain the

Page 38687

 1     difference to me, if any?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a difference.  The

 3     volunteers were those who volunteered to join the Croatian Army back in

 4     1991.  There were people who were mobilised, they received summons to

 5     join the Croatian Army.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your answer does

 7     shed some light, but not entirely.  Why were you not mobilised?  Why did

 8     the Croatian Army not mobilise you?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because right at the outset, there

10     was no mobilisation.  It all began by people volunteering to join

11     Croatia's defence.  Nevertheless, as the situation evolved, people were

12     eventually mobilised and supposed to report to certain bodies of the

13     Republic of Croatia.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just said something,

15     and I believe this is the first time this has been said, but I think it

16     is useful.  You said at the outset, in the beginning, there was no

17     mobilisation and people volunteered, and later there was mobilisation.

18     This is what you said, and your answer has been recorded, and now I

19     understand this issue of people being volunteers.

20             Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honours.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, as of May 1992, or, rather, between May 1992 and

24     mid-1993, you worked as a warehouseman in the Precko MTS military depot

25     in Zagreb.  Up until the end of 1993, you worked in the HV military depot

Page 38688

 1     as Borongaj in Zagreb, and this was followed by a stint at the Varazdin

 2     Brijeg depot?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   The 1st of January, 2006, you retired; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You confirmed this information to be true and accurate; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   We've now looked at your personal details, and we have seen that

 9     as of May 1992, you were working at the MTS HV military depot at Precko

10     in Zagreb.  What exactly was there at this location before you arrived

11     there or, rather, before the start of the clashes between the HV and the

12     JNA?

13        A.   Before the start of the clashes with the JNA, there was a JNA

14     barracks there.

15        Q.   Was there any MTS there?

16        A.   No, not while it still belonged to the JNA.

17        Q.   When did this location become a place where MTS was stored, in

18     actual fact?

19        A.   January 1992.

20        Q.   Was that after the Croatian Army took the barracks?

21        A.   Yes, following that.

22        Q.   What was your job, specifically, in that depot from May 1992

23     onwards?  What was your professional capacity there?

24        A.   I was one of the warehouse-keepers in charge of MTS, materiel and

25     equipment.  That means I would take delivery of the equipment, I would

Page 38689

 1     store the equipment, and then I would issue the equipment to units that

 2     had put in requests.

 3        Q.   Last week, we had a witness who explained all about the

 4     procedure, in terms of how MTS was issued.  Could you please just confirm

 5     to see whether the procedure at your own depot was identical?  What was

 6     the procedure like?  How was MTS issued, in practical terms?

 7        A.   We would receive an order from the Defence Ministry, and then we

 8     would go to the Technical and Traffic Administration of the Defence

 9     Ministry, and then there would be a request for certain equipment.  A

10     person would have to obtain this request and then go straight to our

11     depot.  The request would be handed over to the foreman to the head of

12     the depot, who would then submit this to or pass this on to one of the

13     warehouse-keepers who were working there.  It was based on this request

14     that equipment was issued.  And then there was a receipt to go with that,

15     stating specific quantities issued to certain people, and this was always

16     in keeping with their requests.

17        Q.   What about this receipt; did it normally state the name of the

18     person taking delivery?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  I would also sign any receipt whenever I was

20     the person in charge of issuing equipment.

21        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, what about MTS being issued during your time at the

22     Precko depot?  Was it ever issued for the benefit of the BH Army?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   How did you know, having received a request, that certain

25     equipment was on its way to the BH Army or was being issued for the

Page 38690

 1     purposes of the BH Army?

 2        A.   As I said before, the commander would be the first to receive any

 3     request, and then this request or his contacts at the Ministry would tell

 4     him that a certain amount of equipment being requested was being issued

 5     for the BH Army.  That was before we had met the logisticians and the

 6     drivers who came to get the actual equipment, and once we had met them,

 7     we knew each and every one of them by name and could easily identify

 8     them.

 9        Q.   You mean you knew whose drivers they were and they were taking

10     equipment back to Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

11        A.   Yes, we new they were drivers in the employ of the BH Army.

12        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, during your time at the depot, did you not meet most

13     of the logisticians and drivers who came to get MTS for the purposes of

14     the BH Army?

15        A.   Yes, I met all of those who came to our depot.

16        Q.   I do hope you have the documents in front of you, sir.  You

17     should have a binder.  If not, could the usher please assist us.  We'll

18     be looking at two orders briefly, something that we have addressed

19     already.  First of all, P00262.

20             Tell me as soon as you've got that, sir.

21        A.   I've got it.

22        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, is this not the kind of order issued by the Defence

23     Ministry of the Republic of Croatia?

24        A.   Yes, that's the one.

25        Q.   Talking about this order, it mentions that Mr. Fehim Nuhbegovic

Page 38691

 1     would be taking over some equipment.  Did you know this person?

 2        A.   Yes, I knew this person.

 3        Q.   And who was this person working for, Mr. Cehulic?  Who was he

 4     taking over this equipment on behalf of?

 5        A.   He was doing that for the BH Army.

 6        Q.   Can we please go to the next one now, P00267.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 8             Witness, I shall ask you a question because it so happens that I

 9     did my military service as a store-keeper, so it is a subject I am

10     familiar with.

11             I see here that you delivered 2.000 AK-47s.  That's quite a

12     number of rifles.  You also delivered RPG-7, 50 of these.  So when I

13     looked at these figures, I realised that this depot must have been quite

14     a large one.  Was it a large depot, a small depot?  What was it like?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a small depot, but there was

16     a large flow, entry and exit of goods, if you can understand what I'm

17     trying to say.  A lot of goods were issued and a lot of goods came in, so

18     MTS in the depot were recorded.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the turnover was high.  If

20     you have 2.000 rifles, how many crates does this amount to?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 200.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 200 crates.  Right.  To load

23     200 crates, you need several trucks, I assume; don't you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When Mr. Fehim Nuhbegovic came,

Page 38692

 1     he undoubtedly came with a number of trucks?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he came with a number of

 3     trucks.  He didn't come on his own.  There were drivers who came with

 4     him.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A short question which has

 6     never been put:  When the members of the ABiH came, were they in plain

 7     clothes or were they wearing military uniforms?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were always in civilian

 9     clothing.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what about the number

11     plates of these trucks; were these civilian or military?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Always civilian.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you know anything about the

14     fact that the ABiH was taking the necessary precautions for this not to

15     be known?  Do you know whether this was anything which was done under

16     cover or not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was no secret about supplying

18     the BH Army.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             One moment.  I believe there are some questions.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, I apologise for

22     intervening.

23             Witness, I see the order here which is signed by

24     Colonel-General Ivan Cermak.  Were you accustomed to checking these

25     orders, and did you always make sure that you, yourself, saw the orders

Page 38693

 1     in question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, this order which you see

 3     before you, P267, was the order with which one went to the Technical and

 4     Traffic Administration.  The administration then drew up request forms.

 5     Unfortunately, we don't have those documents here.  Based on those

 6     request forms, they were able to take delivery of certain MTS.  That was

 7     sufficient proof that we were authorised to issue the MTS to them, but

 8     without that they could not get anything from us, not a single bullet,

 9     nothing.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, because I can

11     see that this document was addressed to Mr. Vragotuk.  I thought that

12     this might be you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Vragotuk was the chief of the

14     Technical Service in the Technical and Traffic Administration.  He was an

15     employee of that administration.  He was the one who drew up the request

16     forms and signed them, the request forms that then were taken to the

17     depots.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Cehulic, I am asking the question.  I would

20     like to know from you whether, apart from the fact that this MTS went to

21     the ABiH, you had any further information as to where, within the ABiH,

22     it would be taken.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, our task was only to issue the

24     MTS, but where they took the MTS was no longer our concern or our job.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  Mr. Cehulic, do you know someone

Page 38694

 1     called Mario Milos?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  He also worked in a

 3     depot.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But he worked in a different depot as compared

 5     to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.  He worked in

 7     a different depot.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Now, can you tell us, Mr. Cehulic, this

 9     document, P00262, did it go to you, your depot, or did it go to another

10     depot?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document was sent to my depot.

12     How do I know this?  I know this by the documentation attached to it.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

15             Witness, this document you have before you on the screen, which

16     everyone has on their screen, when one looks at this document nothing, at

17     first sight, leads one to believe that these are weapons delivered to the

18     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because Mr. Fehim Nuhbegovic, who is the

19     person who is going to take delivery of these weapons, strangely enough,

20     it says here bulk and figures, 3283109 [as interpreted].  In the B/C/S

21     version -- in the translation, there's a mistake.  It says "10" instead

22     of "09," so that's a detail.  Then it says "Zagreb" alongside that.  This

23     document indicates that this is to be shipped to the southern front-line.

24     Can you give us an explanation for this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that a question for me?

Page 38695

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It's not Ms. Nozica.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this:  This order,

 3     as you will see for yourself when you see the record of issued MTS, was

 4     an order pursuant to which a request form was filled in in the Technical

 5     and Traffic Administration; and there was more than one such request form

 6     because we did not have this whole list of MTS in our depot.  Some of it

 7     was in other depots, so the order was divided between two or three

 8     request forms.  I don't know precisely how many.  Some of the MTS

 9     mentioned in this order, as you will see in the record of MTS that were

10     issued, were issued from the depot in which I worked, in the quantities

11     listed here.  That's the only explanation I can give, but I don't have

12     the request forms.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Another question of

14     a technical nature.  I'd like to get back to the issue of the rifles.

15     You said that there were 200 crates.  I have loaded weapons into crates,

16     so I know how this works.  So when Mr. Fehim Nuhbegovic came to pick up

17     his 200 crates, did he open up all the crates to count the weapons or did

18     he trust you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The crates were sealed, each crate

20     had the seal, so it was not necessary to open it.  He might have opened

21     one or two just to make a spot check, but he didn't open each and every

22     crate because they were sealed, and the seals were untouched.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The crates were sealed with

24     wax?  Were there wax seals on the crates or were there just screws on the

25     crates?

Page 38696

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not a wax seal, but a lead

 2     seal.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Lead seals, you mean?

 4             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question, but you might

 6     not be the right person to answer this.  But since we now have this

 7     document on the screen, since we've heard other experts on the matter,

 8     well, since these weapons were going to cross the border of the Republic

 9     of Croatia and be shipped to Bosnia and Herzegovina, as far as you

10     remember, were there any customs officers on the Croatian border?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know that.  How this

12     came about, I really don't know.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't know.  Right.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Cehulic, a while ago you have spoken of

15     orders which were too large to be filled by one warehouse.  I am not

16     quite sure whether I understood correctly.

17             This order that you have -- that we have before us, is that one

18     which was split up so that several warehouses would deliver part of it,

19     or shall I understand that this entirely went to the warehouse where you

20     worked and all the delivery came from that warehouse?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right, this order was

22     split up amongst several request forms.  The MTS were taken from more

23     than one depot.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Which means, then, in fact, that you did not

25     deliver 2.000 automatic rifles, but only part of that, to take just this

Page 38697

 1     example?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards rifles, I issued 1.500

 3     of them pursuant to this order.  I presume that the remainder were issued

 4     in another depot.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Who decided that you would deliver 1.500?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Technical and Traffic

 7     Administration in the Ministry of Defence decided.  Every evening, they

 8     received an inventory.  They knew what MTS were in each depot, so they

 9     had precise records on the quantities currently in each depot.  Based on

10     that, they were able to decide how many rifles I would issue and how many

11     would be issued by somebody else.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And have I understood this correctly, there is

13     no documentation of this decision of the Technical and Traffic

14     Administration?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we don't have the

16     request forms, that's correct.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, I see a lot of questions have been put about this,

21     so let's clarify.

22             You said that the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia

23     issued an order.  That's the sort of order we see here; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The gentleman to whom the order was addressed worked in the

Page 38698

 1     Technical and Traffic Administration, so the order was sent there; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   After that, the Technical and Traffic Administration would draw

 5     up a request form?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   That request form would arrive in your depot, you would receive

 8     it, and pursuant to that request you would draw up a record of MTS

 9     issued; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, in your work, when somebody arrived with a request,

12     did you contact other depots if you, yourself, did not have sufficient

13     MTS?  Did you warehouse employees communicate among yourselves if you did

14     not have sufficient MTS to fulfill a particular request?

15        A.   Yes, always.

16        Q.   In spite of the fact that the Technical and Traffic

17     Administration had an overview of the MTS available, did it sometimes

18     happen that when you received a request, you did not have sufficient MTS

19     and then you would send the people over to another depot?

20        A.   Yes, that happened to me personally on several occasions.

21        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, what happened in such cases?  You would have a

22     request listing certain MTS, for example, something copied from this

23     order; but you, for example, did not have enough AK-47 rifles, you would

24     have only 1.500, and the request would be for 2.000.  What then would you

25     do?  Would you issue the number you had available or would you do

Page 38699

 1     something else?

 2        A.   In such a case, we would issue as many rifles as we had

 3     available.  I would draw up a record, hand it to the man who came to pick

 4     up the goods.  In the meantime, I would communicate with the employees of

 5     other depots, the depots where MTS of this sort were available.  I would

 6     then issue the MTS I had available, and then the two records of items

 7     issued would be attached to the request and sent to the Ministry of

 8     Defence.

 9        Q.   So your record of issued MTS would say "1.500 rifles."  The other

10     depot employee in the other depot would issue a record that 500 rifles

11     were issued.  There would be no new request form, but the two records of

12     items issued would be attached to the one request and sent to the

13     Ministry.

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please slow down, please,

16     and make a pause between question and answer.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I am being told to slow down.  Very

18     well.

19        Q.   I've already moved on to the next document, P00267, which is an

20     order again.  This is almost identical to the previous one, only the MTS

21     and the date are different, and here again Mr. Fehim Nuhbegovic is

22     mentioned.  You say he was the logistics man of the BH Army; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And that he came to collect the MTS in your depot.  We'll deal

Page 38700

 1     with this order later on to see what it was that you issued from your

 2     depot pursuant to this, but now, Mr. Cehulic, please tell me whether you

 3     remember some other names of logistics men who came to your depot to take

 4     delivery of MTS for the needs of the BH Army.  I'm not asking you about

 5     drivers.  I'm asking you about warehouse employees.

 6        A.   From the BH Army?

 7        Q.   Yes, from the BH Army.

 8        A.   Their logistics men who came to us are Seta Sujab and Mr. -- his

 9     name escapes me.

10        Q.   All right.  Maybe you'll remember it later on.  It may come back

11     to you.

12             Now look at the next document, please, 2D0009.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we were looking at

14     document P267.  My attention was drawn by the uniforms and the boots.  In

15     this document, it states that there should be a thousand uniforms and a

16     thousand boots delivered.  Does this mean that the uniforms of the

17     Croatian Army were the same as the uniforms that were about to be given

18     to the soldiers of the ABiH Army?  Were these identical uniforms?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were the same uniforms,

20     identical.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were these uniforms of the

22     former Yugoslavia at the time of the JNA or were these brand-new uniforms

23     that had been sent from the USA, or Germany, or from other country?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were camouflage uniforms, new

25     ones.

Page 38701

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where had these been made?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know that.  They

 3     were in boxes which we were not allowed to open.  We received orders

 4     which simply said these are camouflage uniforms.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you now look at document 2D0009.  Have you found it?

 8        A.   Yes, I have.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Mr. Cehulic, you're probably not familiar with this

10     document.  You saw it for the first time during the proofing session.

11     I'll say briefly that this is an exhibit, and it's a letter from the

12     Embassy of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from July 1993, addressed

13     to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Croatia, informing

14     the Republic of Croatia that a certain number of persons, on behalf of

15     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were appointed to work in the

16     Military and Economic Representative Office in Zagreb and in the

17     Logistics Department of the Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb.  Where it says within the Logistics

19     Department of the Supreme Staff of the BH Armed Forces in Zagreb, 21

20     persons were appointed, please look at this list and tell us which of

21     these persons came to your depot.

22        A.   I've already mentioned Seta Sujab and Mr. Enver Beslagic.  I am

23     absolutely sure that these two came to my depot.  I know them personally.

24        Q.   This is the logistical staff of the Supreme Command Staff of the

25     BH Armed Forces in Zagreb, and you have recognised the persons under

Page 38702

 1     number 3 and number 6; is that correct?  These persons came to your

 2     depot; is that correct.

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Well, we started talking about the orders issued by warehouse

 5     employees when dispatching MTS.  Before we come to these records, could

 6     you explain to Their Honours how many employees worked in your warehouse?

 7     Their names are on the receipts or records of issued material.

 8        A.   Josip Mazul, Vlado Vuksic, Stjepan Sovec, Ilija Brkic,

 9     Franjo Banovac.

10        Q.   Just please slow down for the record.  Stjepan --

11        A.   Sovec.

12        Q.   Continue.

13        A.   Franjo Banovac, Branko Pustak.

14        Q.   And that would be it?

15        A.   Yes, that would be it.

16        Q.   Now look at document 2D13 --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have seen something in

18     this document which I'm interested in.  This is something I discover,

19     even though it's been discussed already, but this is a material proof of

20     the fact that the ABiH had a logistics department in Split.  Is that

21     something you were aware of, that the ABiH had some people in Split?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but not immediately.  I

23     learned that later on.  We didn't know that from the first day.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you made aware of

25     that?

Page 38703

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that when we talked among

 2     ourselves in 1994, or 1995, perhaps, not before that.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If the ABiH had a logistics

 4     centre, there's a question that comes to mind instantly.  Why was it

 5     necessary to come to Zagreb and pick up the MTS, when it was much easier

 6     to go to the Logistics Centre that could have been replenished by the

 7     other depots?  Do you have an explanation to give us for this?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you much about that,

 9     because I don't know what the Logistics Centre in Split was like.  Did

10     they have special buildings that they used for storing ammunition?  I

11     didn't know that.  Did they have sufficient room to store certain

12     quantities?  I really don't know.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you the same

14     question as I asked of the witness on Monday.

15             As far as you can remember, did your warehouse supply weapons and

16     other equipment throughout the year 1993?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only guarantee anything in

18     relation to 1992.  That was my time at the depot.  Anything I tell you

19     about 1993 is based on hearsay, but I think that was the case.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just said that you

21     worked in that depot in 1992, but where were you in 1993?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993, I was at the Borongaj

23     barracks.  It's another HV barracks.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you were not a warehouse

25     employee in that barracks?

Page 38704

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was, but I wasn't in charge

 2     of weaponry.  I was in charge of general equipment, such as uniforms,

 3     military boots, that sort of thing.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So am I to understand in 1992,

 5     as a warehouse-keeper, in your warehouse you supplied weapons, munitions,

 6     and other equipment to the ABiH; but in 1993, you can't say anything

 7     about that here because you were no longer in that depot?  Am I to

 8     understand your testimony in that way?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

10             THE COURT:  Very well.  Thank you.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   I would like to go back briefly to the previous document, 2D0009.

13     Mr. Cehulic, if I understand you correctly, you confirmed that only those

14     logisticians came to your depot who were from the Zagreb Logistics Base,

15     Seta Sujab and Enver Beslagic?

16        A.   Yes, and their drivers came later on, too.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Can we please now go to 2D01332.

18             Before we move on to the receipts, Witness, what we see here is

19     an overview of equipment issued for special purposes throughout 1992.  It

20     reads, "Information on equipment issued for the needs of the BH Army."

21     This overview comprises seven different sections.  We see quantities

22     specified here of equipment delivered to the BH Army in 1992.  Based on

23     the quantities reflected here, and the receipts attached to this which

24     you have seen, as well as your experience as an employee of the depot,

25     would these quantities reflected here tally with those actually issued

Page 38705

 1     from your depot?

 2        A.   I have to say these quantities are laughable.  We, at our depot,

 3     issued at least twice as much equipment than the quantities specified

 4     here.  We spent some time looking at the receipts yesterday, as well as

 5     this overview, and there are quite a number of quantities here that don't

 6     tally.  If you'd like me to, I could specify.

 7        Q.   First of all, I would ask you to be more specific.  Perhaps I

 8     misunderstand what you're trying to say.  What are you trying to say?

 9     The overview reflects smaller quantities than you actually issued; is

10     that what you're trying to say?

11        A.   Yes, smaller by far.

12        Q.   You're talking about your own depot.  All right.  Can I please

13     ask you to tell me which specific quantities reflected here in this

14     overview are you referring to?

15        A.   I've come across several such quantities.  You do know that the

16     documentation is not complete.  There was a lot more than just this.  For

17     example, number 15, sniper SSG, that's page 2, sniper rifle, SSG, I'll

18     just take a moment to mark this.

19        Q.   In my copy that is section 3, right, number 15.  Go on, please.

20        A.   It reads a total of 29 rifles were issued.  Nevertheless, based

21     on the receipts, only those that we have here, a total of 49, were in

22     fact issued, the discrepancy being a total of 20 rifles, in this case; so

23     this information is not accurate.  Then the next thing we see there is

24     the machine-gun, that's page 1 of section 3 --

25        Q.   Page 1, section 3?

Page 38706

 1        A.   Yes, towards the bottom of the page.

 2        Q.   It reads "Infantry weapons number 3"?

 3        A.   Yes, indeed, infantry weapons.  What it says is that a single

 4     machine-gun was issued, whereas, in fact, two were.  That's another

 5     example, and there's a number of these.  I could go on.

 6        Q.   In the attachment, we see the receipts, based on which we can

 7     ascertain exactly what sort of equipment or weaponry was issued from your

 8     depot?

 9        A.   Yes, indeed.

10        Q.   Just in order to focus on one thing, can you tell us about any

11     other depots that you knew of that were issuing the same kind of MTS at

12     the time?  The quantities here seem to be smaller than those actually

13     issued from your depot, but can you tell me about any other Zagreb-based

14     depots issuing the same sort of MTS at the time?

15        A.   Duboki Jarak and certain quantities were issued by

16     Varazdin Brijeg.

17        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, we have a total of 77 receipts attached to this

18     overview.  During our proofing, did you look at all of these?  Let's not

19     do these one at a time now.  We shall bring up certain examples, but in

20     order to avoid going through the entire list, can you confirm you've gone

21     through all of these?

22        A.   Yes, down to the very last one.

23        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, can you confirm that these are receipts reflecting

24     the issuing of MTS from your own depot, the one at which you were working

25     back in 1992?

Page 38707

 1        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

 2        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, can you also confirm that these are receipts that

 3     you signed in your capacity as a warehouseman, you or one of your fellow

 4     warehouse-keepers whose names you mentioned before?

 5        A.   Yes, indeed, I can confirm that.

 6        Q.   Can you confirm that this was equipment that was issued for the

 7     purposes of the BH Army?

 8        A.   Yes, indeed, that is the equipment that we're talking about.

 9        Q.   I'm looking at the receipts, and I see the names of people who

10     took over or took delivery of this equipment.  What exactly was recorded

11     there, the name of the logistician in charge or the driver?

12        A.   In most of these, we see the driver's name.

13        Q.   Fine.  Finally, I would like to briefly move on -- or, rather,

14     there is something I would like to explain, but for the Chamber's

15     benefit.

16             We submitted a motion for the admission of two documents that

17     would facilitate our work in this courtroom, and that's why we put the

18     orders and the receipts together.  Other than that, I'm talking about

19     receipts that were shown to this witness or the previous witness.

20     Nevertheless, some issues have been raised about what exactly the witness

21     issued himself, according to P262.

22             Therefore, Mr. Cehulic, I would like to ask you to please go back

23     to the beginning of your binder and locate P00262.  His Honour

24     Judge Antonetti asked you whether you were the person who issued the

25     quantity of rifles specified here, a total of 2.000 rifles.

Page 38708

 1             We'll just have to wait because I believe we can bring this up in

 2     e-court, so we'll have to do it that way.  Can we please have 2D01332.

 3     The relevant page is 2D710677.  The other one, please, in e-court.  The

 4     witness can't handle both copies at the same time physically.  This would

 5     be receipt 273.  That is [indiscernible] provision, and I think the

 6     witness might find that easier to deal with.  It's about to come up, the

 7     receipt.  There it is, 273.

 8             So we were looking at P00262.  The order said that an amount of

 9     2.000 rifles was to be issued, and 250.000 6.72-millimetre bullets.  Can

10     you please confirm to the Chamber, based on this order and the first two

11     paragraphs, is that what the receipt is based on?  We did look at the

12     date, and the date is the 15th of June, 1992, and the receipt is dated

13     the 16th of June, 1992.  We're talking about discrepancies in terms of

14     quantity.  Therefore, could you please explain to the Chamber whether we

15     are talking about this order and why these discrepancies arose?

16        A.   Yes, that is the order we're talking about.  The quantity is much

17     smaller because probably there was no equipment left in the depot.  They

18     had to go to another depot for the remaining equipment that was to be

19     issued, and this is something that we explained already.

20        Q.   And what about the bullets?  250.000 was the amount requested,

21     and 263.000 pieces were issued.  Did discrepancies such as this one

22     sometimes occur in relation to amounts specified in an order or a

23     request, and why did such discrepancies arise?

24        A.   The reason was a very simple one.  I was talking before about the

25     quicker the flow of equipment or maybe there was a change that was made

Page 38709

 1     to the original request because an order came later on, so it wasn't

 2     250.000 but 263.200 instead.  There is a possibility that this was the

 3     last remaining equipment, so it was dealt with in order to make room for

 4     some new equipment, simply because there wasn't that much room in the

 5     depot itself.

 6        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, if I understand you correctly, your receipt was, as

 7     a matter of fact, the authoritative document as to the quantities of

 8     equipment issued for the needs of the BH Army; right?

 9        A.   Yes, that was always the last document to be drawn up, and the

10     figures were always the most accurate ones.  Before that stage, there

11     could have been an order, several receipts, or one receipt and several

12     orders, not necessarily tallying.

13        Q.   Yes, I understand now, but let us try to make this even more

14     specific.  Let us move on to the next order.  Again, if you could please

15     go back to the beginning of your binder, this is P00267.  It's the order

16     dated the 18th of June, 1992.  It says "1.500 rifles"; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This is about to come up in e-court, the document.  You will soon

19     be looking at receipt number 288.  This is 2D01332.  The relevant page is

20     2D710684.  Have you got that?

21        A.   Not yet.

22        Q.   All right.  288.  There we go.  Do you see that now?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You have an order in front of you.  "Rifles, 1.500."  Could you

25     please look at the first thing there.  Did you issue this quantity of

Page 38710

 1     rifles based on this order?

 2        A.   Yes, we did.

 3        Q.   Please look at number 2 now this order, 7.62 ammunition,

 4     4.000 pieces.  That's what it says, "4.400," more specifically.  Why the

 5     discrepancy?

 6        A.   Because of packaging.  We didn't break up cases of ammunition.

 7     We would just ship entire cases; hence, the discrepancy.

 8        Q.   Number 3 reads "Snipers, 79," and here at number 4, again we see

 9     the word "sniper," so is this the same MTS that's specified in the

10     original order?

11        A.   Yes, indeed, it is.

12        Q.   Can you please look at number 5 in the order.  It says "BR 091."

13     Again at number 5, do we see the same quantity?

14        A.   Yes, that's the quantity.  Again, some more equipment was issued

15     because of the original packaging.

16        Q.   His Honour asked you about the boots and the uniforms from order

17     number 17.  Do we see these same boots and uniforms or, rather, uniforms,

18     just uniforms, mentioned here?

19        A.   No, no boots, just uniforms.  We see the uniforms here, but as

20     far as I could tell, they were not actually mentioned in the overview.

21        Q.   Can you please just repeat that?

22        A.   We see the uniforms reflected in the receipts, the uniforms that

23     were issued for the BH Army.  Nevertheless, these same uniforms are not

24     reflected in the overview that we were looking at a while ago.

25        Q.   You are talking about the overview of the equipment, MTS, that

Page 38711

 1     was issued for the needs of the BH Army; you are talking about that,

 2     aren't you?

 3        A.   Yes, indeed, I am.

 4        Q.   For the sake of the transcript, the document number is 2D01332.

 5     So that's what we were talking about, and we didn't see the uniforms

 6     reflected there in that document, did we?

 7             The next thing I would like to ask you is this:  You said

 8     something about several receipts being issued based on one and the same

 9     order.  Therefore, can you now please look at the following -- we've seen

10     six paragraphs or items here in this order, and could you now please go

11     to receipt number 290.  It's about to come up in e-court, you'll soon

12     see.  The number is 2D710679.  It was produced on the same day.

13             Let me point this out, that the first one was signed by one

14     warehouse-keeper and the next one was signed by a different

15     warehouse-keeper on the same day from the same depot, and yet we have two

16     different signatures.  Even the request number is the request.  For the

17     sake of the transcript, the number is 521.

18             Can you please just explain why we see a different signature on

19     the other one, and we're talking about the same equipment from the

20     original order?  Number 7, for example, number 6, number 8, number 9,

21     number 10, number 14, and number 15.  This can be cross-referenced to the

22     order.  So why do we see a new name turn up there all of a sudden, a new

23     warehouse-keeper and new receipts?

24        A.   We have two receipts here and two warehousemen.  Work at the

25     depot was divided between several different persons in order to speed the

Page 38712

 1     whole procedure up, equipment coming in and equipment leaving our depot,

 2     and that was all because we didn't have much room in there.  You see two

 3     receipts that followed the same order and the same request, but signed by

 4     two different warehouse-keepers.  Why was this the case?  Because each

 5     person working there was in charge of a particular type of weaponry in

 6     order to make sure that the equipment was loaded and shipped off as

 7     quickly as possible.

 8        Q.   Can we now look at receipt 294, which is in relation to the same

 9     order.  The document number is 2D710686.  Have a look, please.

10             Again, this is about the same request, 521.  The equipment here

11     is reflected in the order as 121311.  We can look at that.  A grenade

12     launcher, 120, and the 82 type.  That's number 11.  And then the

13     60-millimetre type.

14             Mr. Cehulic, again, this was signed by Mr. Vuksic, who signed the

15     previous receipt as well, but this is on the next day, right, the 19th of

16     June, 1992?  His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you about lorries and

17     whether that's what this was about, and why a third receipt was based on

18     this same order a day after the first two.

19        A.   Yes.  This receipt was produced slightly later because they

20     didn't have sufficient lorries to ship this equipment, so we had to wait

21     until the next day, when a new lorry came, and then the remaining

22     equipment based on the previous request, the request of the previous day,

23     could be shipped.  So the receipt was drawn up not before the day the

24     equipment could actually be shipped.

25        Q.   Mr. Cehulic, we've gone through all these receipts, the three

Page 38713

 1     receipts, together for equipment leaving your depot, P00 --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the number.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] P00267.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that if we look at these three receipts, all of the

 6     equipment was issued, with the exception of the boots?  That was the only

 7     thing we didn't find in that order?

 8        A.   Yes, I agree.

 9        Q.   And, finally, to wrap this up, a question, Mr. Cehulic.  You

10     spent quite some time working there.  We've looked at a total of 77

11     receipts.  You've gone through them all, and you've been able to confirm

12     that these were weapons and MTS issued by your depot.  And then we looked

13     at the overview.  You claimed that greater quantities were issued from

14     your depot for the needs of the BH Army, and on top of that, MTS was

15     issued for their purposes from other depots.  Finally --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please rephrase the last part of

17     the question.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Finally, based on your experience, was more equipment issued for

20     the purposes of the BH Army or less equipment than reflected in these

21     receipts that you have been looking at?  I'm talking about document

22     2D1332.

23        A.   Far more equipment was issued than reflected in this document.

24     This is only a very small fraction of what was issued.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Mr. Cehulic, thank you very much.

Page 38714

 1             Your Honours, thank you very much.  This concludes my

 2     examination.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

 4     question, a technical question.

 5             I see Draganov, that was number 16, 2D1332, you issued 20 items.

 6     We all know this is a high-precision rifle.  It can be 800 to 1200 metres

 7     in reach, as mentioned here.  Now, I guess these rifles were in a crate,

 8     but there is a number on each and every rifle.  Did your depot write down

 9     the numbers for those rifles or was it not done at all?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rifle numbers were not

11     recorded, not at the outset.  Later on, when the procedure was

12     computerised, they were recorded, but not before that time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Earlier on, I asked you where

14     the rifles came from.  Draganov rifles were manufactured in the former

15     USSR, weren't they?

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.  We're

17     not receiving any interpretation, or the witness isn't.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall repeat the question.

19             I asked you previously where the rifles came from.  You were not

20     able to answer my question.  When I noticed that they were Draganov

21     rifles, I believe they were manufactured in the former USSR.  Weren't

22     they?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  Where did our

24     rifles come from?  Well, there is one thing that I can tell you.  Most of

25     the equipment -- and I'm not going into the issue of quantity now, but

Page 38715

 1     this is something that I found when I came to work at the depot.  Most of

 2     the equipment and weaponry had been captured from the former JNA, seized

 3     when their barracks throughout Croatia were seized.  This was back in

 4     1992.  And you know that the JNA was well equipped.  They had plenty of

 5     weapons across their barracks.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are, therefore, telling us

 7     that the weapons belonged to the former JNA and had been seized by

 8     Croatia in the JNA barracks.

 9             The time has come for a break.  Do the other Defence teams have

10     questions?  3D?

11             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honours, one question from the

12     general.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             Let's have a break now.  We shall reconvene in 20 minutes' time.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the other

18     Defence teams begin, I have a question.

19             We showed the witness 2D1332.  That is a document which contains,

20     as we said, 77 receipts, which the witness confirmed were receipts by

21     which MTS were sent from his depot for the needs of the BH Army.  I only

22     wish to ask Your Honours whether it is necessary, in order for this

23     document to be admitted into evidence, to present to the witness each and

24     every receipt number.  Do we have to go through them all or is it

25     sufficient that the witness confirmed that he had seen them all and that

Page 38716

 1     he can confirm that these were MTS issued by him or warehouse-keepers

 2     working in his depot?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, first of all, you'd

 4     finished, you had finished.  If I remember correctly, the witness said

 5     that he saw all the receipts with you.  What can we add to that?

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber sets aside

 8     the issue you have just raised, because it recalls that when the

 9     Prosecutor had shown a whole series of documents relating to soldiers

10     that were working outside, these were civilians that were prisoners or

11     soldiers that were prisoners who were working outside, the Trial Chamber

12     had dismissed the documents.  So it's a matter of understanding whether

13     the Prosecution witness had seen all the documents, one after the other;

14     whereas in this case, the witness says that these have been seen one by

15     one.  Anyway, we'll see.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will ask you to give

17     me the possibility of reading them out.  I'm still within my time, and no

18     other cross-examination has started, so let me list these 77 documents.

19     We have 77 receipt numbers to go through.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Good morning, Your Honours, all of you, and all those

23     in and around the courtroom.

24             Just very briefly, Your Honours, the Court just mentioned -- and

25     whatever my position might be, if we were writing on a clean slate, so to

Page 38717

 1     speak, just to be consistent and again as the Chamber just noted, the

 2     Prosecution attempted to do this with a number of witnesses and were

 3     consistently told that we could not do that; so we would object to the

 4     Defence being treated any different than the Prosecution in this respect.

 5     We tried that with a number of witnesses, including Mr. Praljak from the

 6     prison, the Heliodrom and others, and the Trial Chamber repeatedly ruled

 7     that we were not able to proceed in this fashion.  So we would simply ask

 8     that the Prosecution and the Defence be treated in a similar fashion.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             Ms. Nozica, the Trial Chamber, after having deliberated,

12     authorises you to give the numbers of the receipts.  That will take a few

13     minutes, but you may say that out of these 77 documents, the following

14     numbers have been reviewed by the witness.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour, but before that's done, I

16     just repeat our objection.  That's exactly what we were refused to do,

17     and I would like to have some understanding why the Defence is allowed to

18     do something that the Defence [sic] was not allowed to do.

19             Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the time being, the Trial

21     Chamber has not ruled.  It is just asking Ms. Nozica to provide it with

22     these numbers.

23             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think there is

24     a difference.  My client insisted on this, because of previous decisions,

25     I felt if the witness had said he had looked through all these documents,

Page 38718

 1     but in any case I will read out all these receipts and ask the witness to

 2     confirm whether these are his receipts.  Number 7 --

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  For the record, I would like to state that I

 4     oppose this.  I think this is completely irrelevant and a total loss of

 5     time.  It does not add anything at all to the establishment of any

 6     relevant fact.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             In you view of the fact that the Chamber has issued its decision,

 9     I agree with you, because the document was shown to the witness in its

10     entirety.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. Nozica.

12             Judge Trechsel is against this.  I personally, and

13     Judge Prandler, feel that you can give the numbers, but the

14     Trial Chamber's ruling is another question.  So just provide us with the

15     numbers.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             That's number 7, receipt number 7, number 17, number 18, 56, 78,

18     134, 176, 211, 229, 236, 238, 244, 248, 273, 280, 290, 291, 285, 286,

19     287, 288, 293, 294, 297, 307, 308, 401, 398, 441, 442, 313, 314, 315 --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, there might be a

21     mistake.  398, 441, and then after that I see 422 or 482?

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] 482.  My mistake.  Thank you,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] After 315 is 448, 449, 317, 455,

Page 38719

 1     319, 326, 476, 332, 335, 529, 352, 510, 354, 501, 538, 539, 540, 385,

 2     387, 545, 437, 441, 464, 447, 655, 700, 705, 711, 716, 718, 723, 761,

 3     762, 772, 775, 779, 781, 796, 814, and 819.

 4        Q.   Witness, have you looked at all these receipts as I was reading

 5     them out?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Were they all issued in your depot?

 8        A.   Yes, they were.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  That

10     completes it now.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             3D.

13             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] Your Honours, General Praljak has a

14     question regarding the depots.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17             Good morning, Mr. Cehulic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] While you were working in Borongaj in 1993, do

21     you have any knowledge that apart from the regular depot in which you

22     worked, "regular" in quotation marks, there was another part of the depot

23     where weapons, bullets, and other necessities of war were put in tins,

24     especially to be sent to Bihac and later on to other parts of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 38720

 1        A.   Yes, General, I heard something about that, but I did not see it

 2     myself.  I heard about it, but I cannot confirm with any certainty that

 3     this was the case because I did not see it myself.

 4        Q.   I know you couldn't see that because it was kept secret from you,

 5     but you did hear that something like that existed?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Cehulic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence of

10     General Petkovic has no questions for this witness.

11             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no

12     questions.  Thank you.

13             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

14     Thank you.

15             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Dr. Prlic has no

16     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             The Prosecution.

19             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, the Prosecution has no questions.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Sir, your testimony has just come to a close.  I thank you for

22     having come at the request of the Stojic Defence to help us get closer to

23     the truth.  I wish you a safe journey home.

24             I shall ask the Registrar to escort you out of the courtroom.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 38721

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, we will have your

 3     next witness tomorrow.  Your witness is ready?  Is he or she?

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The witness is

 5     arriving today.  Because of the technical problems yesterday, we could

 6     not have the witness brought yesterday and prepared for today.  The

 7     witness is arriving today and will be ready in the courtroom tomorrow

 8     morning.  I only wish to inform Your Honours that next week we have two

 9     witnesses.  One is scheduled for Monday and Tuesday, for two hours, and

10     the last witness before this break is scheduled for Wednesday.  However,

11     as the first witness might be finished earlier, we asked for the second

12     witness to be brought here on Monday also so that should we manage to

13     finish the first witness earlier, we can bring in the second witness on

14     Tuesday, that is, if there is sufficient time.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, which means that we

16     can have a few days' rest after that because we have heard witnesses

17     since the beginning of January.  So we can have a little breather and

18     resume after that with Witness Zubak, who has been scheduled for the

19     20th of April.

20             Mr. Praljak.

21             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have quite

22     a different question.

23             As I will soon be sitting in the witness's seat and will be

24     testifying for a long time, two weeks, hoping that Your Honours will ask

25     me even more questions than envisaged, I would like to ask whether, in

Page 38722

 1     that time, my wife and my son may visit me, or am I not allowed any

 2     visits at all?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will confer,

 4     but as a Judge, I don't see why your wife and your son cannot come and

 5     see you.  That seems fairly obvious.  One moment.

 6             MS. PINTER: [Interpretation] There is no interpretation,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it's working.

 9             The Trial Chamber will deliberate on the matter, but, personally,

10     I don't see why your wife and your son can't come and see you during this

11     period.

12             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I would like

13     to have a precise answer in order to avoid any misunderstandings and to

14     be -- to avoid being pronounced guilty of something I did not know about.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Bench will deliberate and

16     let you know, on Monday, what their view on the matter is, so we will

17     tell you this on Monday.

18             Does the Prosecution have anything to raise?  Mr. Scott?

19             MR. SCOTT:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the other Defence

21     teams?  No issues to be raised?

22             I thank everyone, and we shall meet again on Monday at a quarter

23     past 2.00.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.11 a.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of April,

Page 38723

 1                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.