Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38724

 1                           Thursday, 2 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             Today is Thursday, 2nd of April, 2009.  Good morning, first, to

15     the accused, to all the Defence counsel, and all OTP representatives, and

16     the people assisting us.

17             I know you have four IC numbers for us, Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

19             The Prosecution has submitted its objections to the list of

20     documents tendered by 2D and 3D via witness Andjelko Makar.  These lists

21     shall be given Exhibit numbers IC975 and 976 respectively.  It has also

22     submitted its objections to 2D documents tendered via Witness

23     Mario Milos.  This list shall be given Exhibit IC977, and 2D has

24     submitted its list of documents tendered via Witness Dragutin Cehulic.

25     This shall be given Exhibit IC978.

Page 38725

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 2             We're going to have the witness brought in, please, Mr. Usher.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  Please

 5     stand up for your solemn declaration.

 6             Please state your surname, first name, and date of birth.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tomislav Kresic.  The 26th of

 8     August, 1950.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

10     occupation, sir?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a BA in Economics.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you currently working?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm the deputy manager or, rather,

16     an adviser to the manager at the Punta hotel in Neum.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Have you had an

18     opportunity to testify before a court of law regarding the events that

19     took place in the former Yugoslavia or is this going to be the first

20     time?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read out the solemn

23     declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 38726

 1                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV KRESIC

 2                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please be

 4     seated.

 5             Some introductory words.  I suppose Ms. Nozica has told you that

 6     already, but to be on the safe side I'll repeat it.

 7             She'll first ask questions of you on topics that you probably

 8     addressed with her during the proofing for this testimony.  Ms. Nozica

 9     will no doubt show you three documents that we have received and you have

10     received in the pink folder on your right-hand side.

11             I believe your screen is not working.  If it doesn't work, then

12     look at the documents you have available to you.  Oh, it's working.  Very

13     good.  But even had the screen not been working, we could have had your

14     testimony.

15             Do endeavour to be concise in your answers.  If you fail to

16     understand a question, do not hesitate to tell us, sir.  Ms. Nozica is

17     going to ask you first a few questions.  It may be that the other Defence

18     teams have questions for you as well.  And Madam Prosecutor, on your

19     right-hand side, may also ask questions of you.  The four Judges in front

20     of you might have questions based on the documents as well.

21             So this is what I wanted to convey to you so that your testimony

22     can take place as best as possible for you and in the interests of

23     justice.

24             You may proceed, Ms. Nozica.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you,

Page 38727

 1     Your Honour.

 2                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

 3        Q.   Mr. Kresic, good afternoon -- good morning.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   First of all --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, one person at a time, no

 7     overlaps.  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You completed your secondary education and a degree in Economics

10     in Sarajevo, in 1975 in the case of the latter; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In 1980, you were working in Sarajevo, and then the same year you

13     returned to Neum and you got a job in the Bregava enterprise?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   You continued to work for this company until 1984?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   As manager?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In 1984, you were appointed manager of the Sunce hotel in Neum?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And this hotel was part of an enterprise named Arpo?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Just to make this perfectly clear, it was a socially-owned

24     company in its entirety; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 38728

 1        Q.   Rather, a state-owned company?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In 1988, you were appointed president of Neum Municipality?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you remained in that position --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please ask the witness not to

 7     overlap and not to speak at the same time.  Thank you.  The interpreter

 8     didn't hear the witness's answer.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

10             [Interpretation] Until 1990, the first multi-party elections,

11     democratic ones.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In 1990, you returned --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, could counsel please explain

15     to the witness not to speak at the same time as counsel.  The

16     interpreters can't hear both at the same time.  Thank you.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you please just make a pause between my question and your

19     answer.  They're having some problems with the transcript.

20             Mr. Kresic, how long have you known Mr. Bruno Stojic for?

21        A.   I've known Mr. Stojic since sometime late 1981 and 1982.  There

22     was a need in the Bregava company for a commercial manager to be

23     appointed, and then Mr. Stojic responded to a public tender about that

24     position, since he had a BA in Economics.  I interviewed him twice or

25     three times, and I gave him an idea of what the job was about and what we

Page 38729

 1     expected the person doing that job to do.  Mr. Stojic left a very

 2     favourable impression on me and my colleagues.  A proper procedure was

 3     initiated, and then we appointed Mr. Bruno Stojic as assistant commercial

 4     manager.  He had acquired some degree of experience, while in his student

 5     days, working in Dubrovnik over the holiday season in a number of

 6     different commercial enterprises.

 7        Q.   How long did Mr. Stojic continue to work in that position as

 8     commercial manager in the Bregava company?

 9        A.   I switched over to the Sunce Hotel in 1984, and Stojic remained

10     until 1986/1987, I think, stayed on as commercial manager in the Bregava

11     enterprise, and then he moved on to work with the public utilities

12     company in Neum.

13             Neum is a tourist hotspot, and we wanted to keep it as clean as

14     possible and as pretty as possible.  Mr. Stojic was showing every sign of

15     a person who was exceptionally diligent and capable, so he was elected at

16     a Municipal Council meeting unanimously and appointed manager of the

17     public utilities company in Neum.

18        Q.   Was Mr. Stojic volunteering in certain positions at the same

19     time, anything that had to do with the development of tourism throughout

20     the municipality?

21        A.   Mr. Stojic was exceptionally active.  In the public utilities

22     company, which obviously had to do with tourism as well, because they

23     made sure the water was clean and the town was pretty, everything to do

24     with the holiday season.  And then he was appointed to the tourist board

25     of the Neum municipality, and I even think he became its secretary and

Page 38730

 1     remained in that position for what I believe were two or three years, or

 2     thereabouts.

 3        Q.   Based on your recollection, how long did Mr. Stojic stay in that

 4     position?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Slow down, please, Witness,

 6     because it's difficult for interpreters to interpret you.  Please slow

 7     down.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 9             [Interpretation] I think it was sometime in 1991 that Mr. Stojic

10     left for Sarajevo.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   What job, what position?

13        A.   Assistant minister of Internal Affairs, the police.  I don't know

14     what it was called, officially, but I think that was the position.

15        Q.   Do you know if any of Mr. Stojic's family remained behind in

16     Neum?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Stojic's family remained in Neum throughout, his wife

18     and his two and then three children.

19        Q.   Mr. Kresic, did you know exactly what duties Mr. Stojic performed

20     after he stopped working for the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the

21     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   No, I don't know specifically about his positions after that, but

23     I think he was working in the defence sector.  I'm not sure what it was

24     called at the time, but I think it was called the Defence Department.

25        Q.   Based on your recollection, was that in the HZ-HB?

Page 38731

 1        A.   Yes.  That was later on, the HZ-HB, when it was established.

 2        Q.   Do you know what Mr. Stojic did after the war?

 3        A.   As far as I know, after the war Mr. Stojic was pursuing some

 4     private business.  I think it had something to do with a bank, or

 5     banking, generally speaking.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kresic, we're looking at this entire period of time from the

 7     beginning of the war to when you claim he started pursuing some private

 8     business.  Throughout this period, how often would you see Mr. Stojic?

 9        A.   When he left for Sarajevo, he would still sometimes return to

10     Neum the occasional weekend, that sort of thing.  We would have a cup of

11     coffee together, that sort of thing, on Saturdays and Sundays, because he

12     was being -- they were keeping him quite busy in Sarajevo, and also he

13     was busy with his family.

14        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Stojic had a role to play in a sports club or

15     anything like that in this period after the war?

16        A.   Yes.  Mr. Stojic had a role to play in the Basketball Association

17     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was also one of the founding members, I think,

18     and honorary presidents of the Brotnjo Citluk Basketball Club.  It was to

19     a large extent thanks to him that a sports hall was built in Citluk, the

20     Brotnjo basketball Club, and they only have him to thank for it; and the

21     players, of course, became champions of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they even

22     took part in some European competitions.

23        Q.   Mr. Kresic, were you friends with Mr. Bruno Stojic?

24        A.   Yes, I was.

25        Q.   Were you friends with him family, and I mean his next of kin?

Page 38732

 1        A.   When he came to Neum, there was a year of what I would term

 2     purgatory, in the sense that he was being tested continually.  Well, how

 3     did he perform, what sort of a person was he?  And then at one point, we

 4     ended up in exactly the same wavelength, and we became exceptionally

 5     close friends.  Neum being an exceptionally small town, our family

 6     socialised as well, and we were very much on visiting terms, frequent

 7     ones.

 8        Q.   Do you know Bruno Stojic's family?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber who Bruno Stojic's family are?

11        A.   His wife and three children, to begin with.  Two of the children

12     have now obtained their BAs.  The youngest one, Balavina, is now in

13     secondary school.  Furthermore, I know his parents very well; his father,

14     Mirko, and mother, Paulina.  I also know his brothers and his sister, but

15     to a lesser extent.

16             I do have to take this opportunity to say that Mr. Stojic's

17     parents are exceptionally hardworking and honest people.  They built

18     everything with their own hands and through their own work, and thanks to

19     the efforts of their father, Mirko, who came from the country-side; but

20     then 40 or 50 years ago, given what the circumstances were, he was

21     definitely showing signing of managerial acumen of the more rural type.

22     That's where it all started, and all his children, and his son, Bruno,

23     [Realtime transcript read in error, "Kruno"] in particular, I believe,

24     had this sort of managerial talent.

25        Q.   If I may just observe line 21, instead of "Kruno," it should be

Page 38733

 1     "Bruno" because that is what the witness said.

 2             Mr. Kresic, you were close friends with Mr. Stojic.  That is what

 3     you have suggested.  In your opinion, what sort of a son, father, or

 4     spouse was Mr. Stojic?

 5        A.   I don't know about him as a spouse.  Probably his wife would be

 6     best placed to tell you about that.  Based on what I could tell, he was a

 7     very good husband and a very good father.  I do have to throw in the

 8     occasional joke every now and again because we all somehow seem very

 9     serious here.

10        Q.   That happens to be the procedure here in this courtroom,

11     Mr. Kresic, but thank you anyway.

12        A.   Let me just add something about his parents.

13             Mr. Stojic had a BA and he was a manager, but he never hesitated

14     for a moment, when he was required over in the country-side, his father's

15     place, to help him prune the vines, and they had plenty of those, I can

16     tell you that; dig up the soil, freshen up the soil, cut the new vines

17     when the time came; and then eventually go there and pick the grapes

18     every autumn, take those grapes, turn it into wine and brandy, so that

19     every time he came back from the country-side, his arms and his back

20     would ache, which means that he enjoyed working there and he enjoyed

21     helping them; and obviously they, in their turn, enjoyed helping him

22     whenever they could.

23        Q.   Mr. Kresic, do you know about the ethnic make-up of the employees

24     in the public utilities company and headed by Mr. Stojic?

25        A.   I don't know what the ethnic make-up was in that company or any

Page 38734

 1     other in Neum.  This wasn't something that people kept track of, really.

 2     One thing that I can say:  Back in 1981, I was head of the Census

 3     Committee, the Central Census Board for Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Neum, as

 4     a municipality, was made up 95 percent of Croats, 2 or 3 percent Serbs,

 5     and 2 or 3 percent Muslims, and about 1 percent everyone else.  As for

 6     the ethnic make-up of employees in various companies around Neum, and

 7     this was not something that people were really spending much time

 8     thinking about, I would conduct a census and then obviously I would have

 9     to go and ask; but we didn't really keep track of that sort of thing, but

10     I think all three groups were represented in Mr. Bruno Stojic's company.

11        Q.   If my understanding is correct of your last answer, all three

12     ethnic groups were represented.  What exactly do you mean when you say

13     that?

14        A.   In addition to the Croats who were there, Mr. Stojic kept some

15     Muslims and Serbs and Yugoslavs in his company, Yugoslavs being actually

16     the fourth group.

17        Q.   You were municipality president for a while when Mr. Stojic was

18     manager of the public utilities company.  Do you know anything about

19     Mr. Stojic's relationship with his employees, how he treated them, the

20     employees in that public utilities company?

21        A.   Mr. Stojic was quite a severe manager.  Nevertheless, his

22     employees held him in high esteem, and I can even say he was well liked.

23     He always found words of comfort or anything else that was required

24     whenever an employee needed assistance, privately or in the line of duty.

25     In addition to that, obviously it did no great harm that the salaries

Page 38735

 1     were decent.

 2        Q.   Did you ever observe Mr. Stojic draw any sort of distinction

 3     along ethnic lines among his employees, discriminating against anyone

 4     based on their ethnicity, or anything like that at all?

 5        A.   Not only did he never do that, what's more he even favoured a

 6     number of people.  I know that for sure.  The only group that was not

 7     enjoying his favours was those who were shunning work.  At the time,

 8     nobody was counting blood cells exactly in terms of who belonged to which

 9     ethnicity.  It was more about how you performed and what sort of person

10     you were.

11        Q.   You said he was a severe manager.  Can you tell us if there was

12     any sort of referendum or an election held to appoint a manager among the

13     workers at the time in the public utilities company?  Is there anything

14     that you can remember about that, in terms of Mr. Stojic being

15     re-elected, and how did the employees take a vote?

16        A.   Rumours went 'round Neum to the effect that certain managers did

17     not deserve to have their term of office extended or that they were not

18     good enough, and this made Mr. Stojic have a referendum, voting in his

19     company.  And I think he was voted in by as many as 96 percent of the

20     employees.  They voted in his favour, and that put an end to all the

21     rumours going 'round Neum.

22        Q.   What do you mean by saying that he was severe and strict as a

23     manager?

24        A.   This means that instead of coming to work at 7.00 a.m., he would

25     tour Neum at 6.00 a.m. to see if there was anything wrong, and then he

Page 38736

 1     would be at work at a quarter to 7.00 and watch when employees were

 2     coming to work.  If anyone was late, he would get a telling-off from him.

 3     People couldn't leave work until working hours were over.  And as this is

 4     a special sort of activity, for example, a pipe would burst in the

 5     plumbing or in the sewage, anyone who was in charge of that would have to

 6     come in even in the afternoon to repair the damage.

 7        Q.   So he demanded discipline and hard work?

 8        A.   Precisely so.

 9        Q.   In his private life, did Mr. Stojic have friends of all

10     ethnicities?

11        A.   Well, in Neum, we were a multi-ethnic community, and many

12     visitors arrived of all ethnicities.  Through our work, we had close ties

13     to Mostar, which was the regional centre, and to Sarajevo, which was the

14     republican centre.

15             I can say that some of Mr. Stojic's best friends were Muslims and

16     Serbs, and even Jews, although there were few Jews, and so that's why I

17     say "even Jews."  I would like to support this by the fact that

18     Mr. Stojic's best friend was Mirza.  I think his last name was Smajlovic.

19     He was the director of the Vodopriveda company, the waterworks company of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they had business associations as well, business

21     links; and also with Mr. Bozo Knezevic, who is a Serb, again through the

22     water utilities and waterworks affairs they were in charge of.  He was

23     also on good terms with Mr. Papo [phoen], who was the director of the

24     roads of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that also had to do with the

25     infrastructure and utilities; not to mention lower-ranking people from

Page 38737

 1     Afan Sose [phoen] onwards, all of those who were working in those

 2     services.  So I can confirm that he respected those people, he held them

 3     in high esteem, and they held him in high esteem.  It was a mutual

 4     feeling.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kresic --

 6        A.   Excuse me.  Let me just mention the following.  He was also on

 7     extremely good terms with the then mayor of Tuzla municipality,

 8     Mr. Mirza Muratbegovic; and the director of the then salt factory in

 9     Tuzla, Safet -- his last name escapes me.  And both these men are

10     Muslims.

11        Q.   Mr. Kresic, do you know whether Mr. Bruno Stojic was politically

12     active when the multi-party elections started, so starting from 1991?

13        A.   Mr. Stojic always showed more interest in the economy than

14     politics.  Before the war, he wasn't very active, just a little bit in

15     passing; but during the war, I don't think he was very prominent in

16     politics.  And after the war, I think there was an attempt, together with

17     Mr. Kresimir Zubak, to found a party called the New Croatian Initiative

18     as a sort of opposition party in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but that was --

19     well, this was not very successful.  And then Mr. Stojic, I think, worked

20     in a bank.

21        Q.   When did Mr. Stojic become active together with Mr. Zubak in a

22     party called the New Croatian Initiative?  What time-period was that?

23        A.   I think late 1997 or early 1998.  It doesn't matter, but that's

24     about the time-period.

25        Q.   Mr. Kresic, can you tell Their Honours what you did during the

Page 38738

 1     war?

 2        A.   In 1990, after the elections, I returned to the Sunce Hotel or

 3     the Sun Hotel as its manager, and I remained at that post until this

 4     year, practically.  In the meantime, war broke out, and in the hotel we

 5     did work concerning logistics, putting up refugees and displaced persons,

 6     students, the wounded, convalescents, and so on.

 7        Q.   When you say that you were a logisticians man, you said you were

 8     working for refugees, convalescents and so on, did you have any contact

 9     with the army and military units?

10        A.   Yes, I was for a while, as a hotel-keeper, the main logistics

11     man, but that's as regards food, clothing, gas, water, batteries, things

12     like that.

13        Q.   Was there an HVO unit based in Neum?

14        A.   In Neum, I think it was first a company and then it was a

15     battalion.

16        Q.   What brigade did the battalion in Neum belong to?

17        A.   I think it was the 1st Brigade, which was called the Knez Domagoj

18     Brigade.  It was established subsequently.  It wasn't there from the

19     beginning.

20        Q.   And where was the Knez Domagoj Brigade stationed?

21        A.   I think it was around Capljina.

22        Q.   You mentioned refugees, Witness.  When did refugees begin

23     arriving in Neum, and where did they come from?

24        A.   The first refugees to arrive in Neum arrived in August or

25     September 1991, I think it was 1991, and they came from Stolac.  They

Page 38739

 1     stayed for a short period of time and then went back there.  After that,

 2     when there was an attack on Ravno municipality, the entire area of Ravno

 3     municipality and the Dubrovnik area from Slano to Neum, all the refugees

 4     from there arrived in Neum.

 5        Q.   When you say they came from Stolac, was it just refugees of Croat

 6     ethnicity who arrived or were they people of all the ethnicities living

 7     in Stolac?

 8        A.   Well, one should know that the area between Stolac and Neum is

 9     inhabited mostly by Croats, so there were the most Croats among them, but

10     there were also Muslims and Serbs.  I can give you specific examples.

11             In my hotel, for a certain period of time, Mr. Mahmutcehajic

12     resided.  He was the father of the minister.  I think his name was

13     Irfan Mahmutcehajic.  He was a minister in the government of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, so he stayed in our hotel.

15        Q.   For how long did he stay in your hotel?

16        A.   Well, at that time we didn't keep those records.  People stayed

17     in the hotel for as long as they needed to, until someone -- some of

18     their relatives arrived and took them somewhere else.

19        Q.   My question was whether they left voluntarily and whether they

20     were able to stay in Neum for as long as they wanted to.

21        A.   They could stay for as long as they wanted to, but all those who

22     had relatives somewhere else went to stay with their relatives, they

23     moved on.

24        Q.   And did the same happen with Croat refugees?  Did some Croats

25     leave and others stay behind?

Page 38740

 1        A.   Yes, because the entire Croatian population of the Dubrovnik

 2     Primorje area, after an intervention by the Dubrovnik authorities or

 3     Metkovic municipality - I'm not sure who - went to other accommodation in

 4     Croatia, so that the only people who remained in Neum were those who had

 5     nowhere to go.

 6        Q.   You mentioned Mr. Mahmutcehajic, and you said that his son was a

 7     minister in the Bosnia-Herzegovina government.  Do you know that he had a

 8     son who was the logistics man of the 4th Corps of the BH Army?

 9        A.   I heard about that, but I don't know that son of his personally.

10     Since I was not involved in those military units, I didn't meet him, but

11     I did know about that son of his.  I think his name was Alija.

12        Q.   Mr. Kresic, you also mentioned convalescents.  Can you tell to

13     Their Honours who those persons were and how they were accommodated in

14     Neum?

15        A.   After a certain period of time, after the war had been going on

16     for a while, there were people who were sick, there were people who were

17     wounded, and of course the wounded went to hospitals, from Metkovic to

18     Split.  Some of them were in hospital in Mostar.  And after their

19     hospital treatment, they would be sent -- I don't know who sent them, who

20     referred them, but based on some referrals they would arrive in Neum,

21     escorted by their wife or someone else, to take a rest.  They no longer

22     needed medical treatment, but they needed a rest.  They needed to go to

23     the seaside for the climate.  That's what happened.

24        Q.   And were these people members of the HVO, the people you're

25     talking about now?

Page 38741

 1        A.   They were members of the HVO, yes, but I think that at the time

 2     there were people of other ethnicities in the HVO, not just Croats.

 3        Q.   Can we take a look at a document, and then we'll come back to

 4     this issue.  The document is in your binder.  It's 2D972.  It's -- well,

 5     this binder is not in consecutive order, but there are only three

 6     documents in it, so it should be easy to find.  Have you found it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   This is a decision signed by Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, and the

 9     date is the 27th of August, 1992.  And it says that all wounded members

10     of the HVO can use a ten-day vacation at the Sunce Hotel in Neum based on

11     a suggestion by the command of municipal headquarters in their brigades,

12     and it says that this can begin from the 1st of September, 1992.

13             So, Mr. Kresic, when you spoke about members of the HVO of all

14     ethnicities, as you said, who stayed in the hotel in Neum for

15     rehabilitation or for a rest, as you say, is this a document which

16     confirms what you have just said?

17        A.   Well, I hadn't seen this document before because it's not

18     addressed to me, but based on a decision made by somebody somewhere, we

19     received these convalescents with their escorts, with their companions,

20     and most of them stayed in the Sunce Hotel and some of them stayed in

21     another hotel.

22        Q.   I would like to ask you again whether you knew that these were

23     people who were members of the HVO and that they were of all ethnicities.

24        A.   Well, all I know for certain is at that time in the HVO, there

25     were members of all ethnicities, although later on there weren't many.

Page 38742

 1     But in this period, there were quite a few.  After the war, a good number

 2     of Muslims remained on the, let's say, left bank.

 3        Q.   I'd now like to go back to the issue of the functioning of the

 4     authorities in Neum.  Can you explain to Their Honours how the local

 5     government functioned, how it was focused, where it was concentrated?

 6        A.   Well, I have my opinion about this.  I'm not familiar with the

 7     details, but I think that authority was concentrated in the hands of the

 8     mayors or the presidents of the municipalities, not just in Neum but in

 9     every municipality, and their circle of close associates.

10        Q.   Well, as regards Neum specifically, who was the president of the

11     municipality?

12        A.   The president of the municipality in Neum was Mr. Ivan Bender.

13        Q.   As you say, you did some logistics work for the army.  Do you

14     know how the army was financed in Neum municipality in 1992 and 1993?

15        A.   Well, I do know something about this, although I'm not quite

16     sure, but in 1992 funds were paid to a municipal HVO bank account; and

17     these funds were used to finance the general needs, including the

18     salaries, the pay, of the members of the Neum company.  Later on, when

19     the Croat community was established, I think that was the way pay was

20     handed out, and everything else.

21        Q.   You say that some funds were paid.  Who paid those funds?

22        A.   The companies and enterprises in Neum.  There was no pension

23     fund, no social security fund, so these funds were contributions from

24     people's salaries which were paid to that bank account, and this was used

25     to finance the expenses of the municipality.

Page 38743

 1        Q.   When you say "when the Croatian community was established," do

 2     you mean the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know what the staffing policy was in the unit which was in

 5     Neum?  Did they have regular contacts with the president of the

 6     municipality, and what was the relationship between the municipal

 7     authorities and the military authorities?

 8        A.   Initially, the organisation worked very well, but when the

 9     fighting really started, everybody tried to avoid, as far as they could,

10     these contacts.  And then a nucleus was formed, and from that nucleus of

11     HVO members and, of course, the people who were in the party, a

12     leadership was formed, the leadership of the company which later grew

13     into a battalion.  Of course, they had meetings and consultations with

14     the head of the municipality or the president of the municipality.

15        Q.   So the head of the municipality and the command of the company?

16        A.   Yes, the command.  Well, they had meetings, yes.

17        Q.   Excuse me.  Can you just wait for me to finish putting my

18     question before you reply.

19             If I understood you correctly, the president of the municipality

20     held regular meetings and consultations with the command of the company;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Bender, as you said, was the president of the municipality.

24     Do you think what other posts he held in Neum, what other duties he

25     performed?  Was he the president of the HDZ in Neum?

Page 38744

 1        A.   At one period of time, yes, he was.  He was in the HDZ Presidency

 2     of Herceg-Bosna.

 3        Q.   Do you know that Mr. Bender was a member of the Presidency of the

 4     HZ-HB as the president of the municipality?

 5        A.   Yes, he was.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kresic, did you have any conflicts with Mr. Bender because of

 7     the fact that he held absolute power in Neum?

 8        A.   Yes, I would say that we had different opinions about the

 9     problems in Neum and in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, of course, I and some

10     other people who had perhaps a different opinion were sidelined, passed

11     by, attacked, to put it mildly.

12        Q.   Were you arrested or brought in at some point?

13        A.   Yes.  In 1993, on the 12th of May, in the morning at around

14     8.00 a.m., four uniformed men entered the hotel with long barrels and

15     showed me a piece of paper, some sort of warrant.  They waved it at me

16     from some distance and told me I was under arrest and should go with

17     them.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

19             It was said that people entered the hotel with long barrels.  I

20     wonder whether fire-weapon was long barrels was the meaning.

21             Witness, did you say that the people who entered the hotel had

22     guns with long barrels in contrary to short-barrelled pistols or

23     revolvers?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them as cannons.  To me, they

25     appeared to be cannons, because when somebody turns up early in the

Page 38745

 1     morning -- they had weapons.  I can't describe the weapons precisely, but

 2     they had weapons.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Kresic, apart from you, were others brought in on that day in

 6     Neum?

 7        A.   Five of us were:  The director of the utilities company,

 8     Mr. Rade Lasic; Mr. Nedeljko Babic, who was the director of the health

 9     centre; Ante Konjevoda, who was the director of the Neum Hotel; and

10     Slavko Katic, the chief of the defence office --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Head of the defence office, interpreter's

12     correction.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were pushed in a van and taken

14     to the barracks in Capljina, to a room there, where we were put on the

15     floor.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Why were you taken away, and where?

18        A.   Well, I already said we were taken to the barracks in Capljina.

19     And the reason we were taken there was so that individuals could

20     demonstrate their power and intimidate other people.

21        Q.   When were you released?

22        A.   We were released that night at around 1.00 a.m. or 12.30, after

23     midnight.  We were in that room.  We were brought some food for our

24     supper, but we didn't feel like eating much.  And then in the night, at

25     around 12.30 or 1.00 a.m., a uniformed gentleman arrived and ordered that

Page 38746

 1     commander or deputy commander of the barracks to release us, and he then

 2     responded noisily.  He cursed and swore and said he would not release us.

 3     He did, in fact, release us, but while we were getting ready he went on

 4     cursing, asking who had issued the order for us to be released and so on.

 5        Q.   When you say that this was done to demonstrate power and

 6     intimidate other people, what other people are you referring to?  Are you

 7     referring to citizens of Neum or someone else?

 8        A.   Well, the citizens in general.  We didn't obstruct anything, we

 9     had nothing to do with anything, but somebody needed an alibi or a

10     reason, a scapegoat in fact.  They wanted to find an excuse for their

11     failures.  Instead of admitting their failures and their lack of success

12     in some activities, they blamed us for their failure in order to justify

13     themselves before the military or civilian authorities.

14        Q.   While you were detained, did you have contact with persons who

15     were in charge of detention there?  Did you have any conversations with

16     anyone?  Were you told why you were there?  Were you given any

17     information as to what was happening and why you were there?

18        A.   We had no information indicating why we had been brought there.

19     After a couple of hours, we were told that we had been detained over

20     military issues, regardless of the fact that we had nothing to do with

21     any military issues.  The gentleman who was the one talking to us, or

22     perhaps it's better to say yelling at us, this man named Boko, Bosko

23     Previsic, told us that we were not good men and that we were not good

24     Croats, summing that up as the reason we were there.

25        Q.   During the interviews, did they do anything to place you in the

Page 38747

 1     same context with Mr. Bruno Stojic?

 2        A.   When this man came to release us, I eventually realised that this

 3     had something to do with Bruno Stojic because we hadn't been talking to

 4     anyone at all during that day.  Nevertheless, Mr. Boko was swearing and

 5     cursing Mr. Stojic and Mr. Prlic, and a number of other persons, too,

 6     that he had no regard for them, that they weren't proper authorities and

 7     he would not release us.  There was an altercation.  The man came to get

 8     us.  He quarrelled with Boko and then we were released.  He demeaned

 9     Stojic in such a way verbally that I think this must have had something

10     to do with an issue that he had with Stojic, he or another person from

11     his own group.

12        Q.   Did you ever find out who had issued the warrant for your

13     release?

14        A.   I don't know where the warrant came from, but it must have been

15     Mr. Stojic or someone working closely with him.  Our wives had called

16     everyone they knew.  They had tried talking to everyone they knew, but

17     I think Stojic was probably the key man for our release.

18        Q.   Could you now please look at 2D515.  Have you got it?

19        A.   What was that number?

20        Q.   2D515.

21        A.   Yes, I've got it.

22        Q.   This is a report on how a group of citizens from Neum were

23     detained the 15th of May, 1993, drawn up by the Security Sector.

24     Mr. Kresic, can you perhaps remember whether anyone from the Security

25     Sector interviewed you at any point following your detention?

Page 38748

 1        A.   Yes.  The next day after I had returned from detention, I made an

 2     official request to the HB authorities for the matter to be looked into,

 3     as to who had ordered our arrest and for what reason.  Two or three days

 4     later, Mr. Ivan Bandic arrived, and he was a member of the Security

 5     Service.  He interviewed me as well as Mr. Slavko Katic, who was the head

 6     of the Defence Department in Neum.

 7        Q.   Was that the defence bureau or office?

 8        A.   Yes, I think that's what it was called at the time.

 9        Q.   Could you now please go to page 2 of that document, the report,

10     the one drawn up by Mr. Bandic.  This is 2D0390076 in the English,

11     2D0390076.  That's the English reference.  Paragraph 3 from the bottom of

12     the page up.  This is exactly what it says, what you say Boko Previsic

13     said:  That a military policeman had called, a person who introduced

14     himself, to order their release.  The person introduced himself as

15     Minister Stojic.  He made that request, and then Previsic responded that

16     he refused to acknowledge a minister who allowed his soldiers to be

17     captured at Konjic.

18             Are these the allegations made by Boko Previsic while you were

19     there in detention?

20        A.   This is only a record that was drawn up, and obviously a bit of a

21     milder spin or spit on Mr. Previsic's words, compared to the way they

22     were actually uttered.

23        Q.   We only have a very short time left and two rather brief subjects

24     to go through.  Therefore -- I do apologise.  I think we'll have to go

25     back to this document.  Page 2, please.  Page 2, there's a reference

Page 38749

 1     there to Mr. Ramljak who was also in that prison, the previous page says

 2     talking to Jelko, the prison warden.  We found out that the group had

 3     been brought into prison at five minutes past 12.00.

 4             In addition to that, Ramljak said that at about 1.00 on the 12th

 5     of May, he was informed over the phone by his deputy, Boko, that the

 6     prison had been attacked and that they were trying to use force to get

 7     those detained on the previous day released.  His deputy was in a panic

 8     and obviously nervous.  He tried to calm him down and see what the whole

 9     thing was about.

10             Immediately after that, Ramljak phoned Dragan Curcic, or at least

11     that's how he introduced himself, as Ramljak says, who was swearing,

12     yelling, and making threats to the effect that those people should be

13     released, that he had received order from Boban to that effect, and so on

14     and so forth.  Ramljak responded by saying that he had no power to have

15     anyone released because the detention order had been passed by the Knez

16     Domagoj Brigade and that the other man should now try and get in touch

17     with Obradovic.  Mr. Ramljak says that he then proceeded to get in touch

18     with Mr. Obradovic, or at least made an attempt to do that, get in touch

19     with Obradovic and [indiscernible], but he was unable to locate them.

20     And the warrant for their release was produced by Milenko Manala [phoen],

21     Obradovic's deputy, after which those people were released.

22             Sir, can you remember, learning about this, that it was at the

23     request of Obradovic and the Knez Domagoj Brigade that you were arrested?

24        A.   I may have heard something to that effect later on.  People were

25     talking about this.  But at the time, we knew nothing.  We were brought

Page 38750

 1     in and put out of sight.

 2        Q.   This document even claims that there had been an order by

 3     Mr. Boban.  Obviously, nevertheless, it was said at the time that not

 4     even his order was sufficient for your release without Mr. Obradovic's

 5     approval.  Do you remember things like that being said at the time?

 6        A.   The main culprit for us being detained was the group of people

 7     from Neum and Capljina.  Was Obradovic involved or anyone else, I can

 8     hardly say.  I have no information on that.  The fact remains Obradovic

 9     had to know about this, and so did Markovic and Bender.  They all knew.

10             As for the conversation between Ramljak and Boko Previsic,

11     I think Ramljak said Boko sounded somewhat timid on the phone when he was

12     talking to him, but that was Boko's normal tone of voice, that's what he

13     usually sounded like.  Boko was very much minded to keep us there, but he

14     had to give in eventually.  The man came with someone's warrant,

15     following which we were released, and in all this din and noise he

16     eventually released us.

17        Q.   Let's try and wrap this up, Mr. Kresic.  What is your final

18     opinion on this?  Were you detained because you were actively opposing

19     Mr. Bender and the people surrounding him?  Briefly, please.  I do have

20     other questions to ask you.

21        A.   In my opinion, I was detained simply because my opinion was

22     different from theirs.  And I would say my opinion was normal, unlike

23     theirs.

24        Q.   Was there any ban on entering Neum at the time?  Was anything

25     like that in force, barricades or anything like that?

Page 38751

 1        A.   Yes.  I was very outset of the fighting in the surrounding areas,

 2     obstacles were placed in the way into Neum, and these obstacles or

 3     check-points were manned.  At first, they weren't wearing uniforms.  Then

 4     they sort of wore semi-uniforms, and then uniforms.  And they were

 5     checking everyone on their way into Neum.

 6        Q.   Were they issuing permits and were they in charge of determining

 7     how long a person would be allowed to stay in Neum?

 8        A.   I think they were there to both allow and refuse entry, and also

 9     to determine how long a person would be allowed to stay in.

10        Q.   Were those persons members of the army or perhaps of the Neum

11     Company, the one we talked about?

12        A.   Those were people from Neum who were there to perform checks.  It

13     was some sort of a unit, military or something, and they were part of the

14     general Neum security.

15        Q.   What time was that?

16        A.   1992 and early 1993.

17        Q.   Did an incident occur at the time, perhaps, in relation to

18     Bruno Stojic's family, and they were still living in Neum, as you said,

19     something to do with visiting and this permit being issued?  Do you

20     remember anything like that?

21        A.   I think the most --

22             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone in

23     and around the courtroom.

24             I understand that Ms. Nozica is now going to get into an incident

25     with regarding the Stojic family.  We have no notice of this in summary.

Page 38752

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you don't have any

 2     time left, so the time you're using now has to be taken out of the time

 3     remaining for you.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.  This is part

 5     Mr. Kresic's general knowledge concerning Bruno Stojic's family.  I have

 6     a very short question in relation to the last document and that's all

 7     that remains, so may I be allowed to use this time in order to then go on

 8     and complete?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please ask your question now.

10     Thank you.

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Could you answer, please, Mr. Kresic?  Did you know anything

13     about that?

14        A.   There was this one situation that remains etched in my memory.

15     When his wife gave birth to a baby, his sister and his son-in-law and

16     were allowed in, but it took a full two hours of to and fro, a bit of a

17     tug-of-war, and then they were eventually allowed to go and visit Bruno's

18     wife.  But they had overstayed the two hours they were allowed to stay

19     there, and then the military police came and got them out of the Metkovic

20     area.  It was a mixture of tragedy and comedy, one might say.

21        Q.   Thank you very much.  Eventually, 2D975, that's the last document

22     that we'll be looking at.

23             Mr. Kresic, do you know this man, Pero Kralj from Gradac?

24        A.   Yes, this is Mr. Kralj from Gradac in the Neum area.  I know him

25     well.

Page 38753

 1        Q.   Do you know that before the war, he was working with the Atlantic

 2     Overseas Ship company before the war in Dubrovnik in Croatia?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   Did you know whether he at one point lost his job or, rather, he

 5     received a decision terminating his contract with that company, which

 6     occurred sometime in late 1992?

 7        A.   Mr. Kralj lost his job.  He was drinking coffee with me at the

 8     Sunce Hotel because that's where his wife was working at the time.  He

 9     came there to drink coffee with me, and as soon as he came, he told me

10     that he had lost his job.

11        Q.   If we look at the first document, the first page, we see that

12     Mr. Kralj was informed by his company that under the employment law, he

13     was not a national, he was a foreign citizen, and that he could only get

14     another employment contract if he was permanently resident in the

15     Republic of Croatia and if he had an actual work permit letter, and the

16     decision says that failed to meet those conditions, for which reason his

17     contract was terminated.  And then there's a decision, and the decision

18     is to be found on page 2 of this document.

19             First of all, was Pero Kralj an ethnic Croat?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   All right.  If we look at this document, we can see that there

22     were regulations in Croatia, to be sure enough, saying that foreign

23     nationals would only be allowed to be gainfully employed if they met a

24     set of very particular conditions.  Mr. Kresic, you were the manager of

25     the Sunce company.  I'm only asking you because this goes back to the

Page 38754

 1     beginning of the war.  Were you bound in any way under the law in

 2     relation to persons who failed to show up for work, who did not report to

 3     work?  Were you supposed to fire them?

 4        A.   Our law says that if a person fails to show up for work for

 5     between five to seven days without any proper justification, their

 6     contract should be terminated.  That is the sort of regulation that was

 7     applied in Bosnia-Herzegovina and I think the same was true throughout

 8     Croatia.

 9        Q.   What about you -- at very outset of the war, there were people

10     who were no longer coming to work.  Did you at any point in time, under

11     the provisions of this law, fire anyone?

12        A.   All those who failed to appear for between 10 and 15 days were

13     eventually fired, be they Croats, Serbs, or Muslims.  I have examples of

14     all of these, but I was not alone in making these decisions because

15     everyone else did the same thing in situations like these.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kresic, thank you, this

17     concludes my examination.

18             Your Honours, I'm now done.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before the break, I

20     have two brief questions for you.

21             I understood that you were the president of the Neum Municipality

22     and in 1990, and if I understand properly, you were then a member of the

23     Communist Party so that you became the president of the municipality.

24     Therefore, you were bound to know a lot of people, including Mr. Stojic

25     and his family.  How do you account for the fact that Mr. Stojic, who had

Page 38755

 1     obvious commercial skills because he was recruited to work in the hotel,

 2     how do you account for the fact that a few years later he became head of

 3     the Defence Department and later minister for Defence?  Do you have any

 4     information accounting for this unusual career, somebody working in a

 5     hotel who finds himself later on a minister for Defence?  This must be a

 6     rare occurrence in the world.  Do you have an explanation for it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I was not a member of

 8     the Communist Party.  I was a member of the League of Communists.

 9     There's a difference there.  It wasn't because of that that I was

10     appointed municipal president.  It was because of my knowledge, because

11     of my ability, and I was appointed by the delegates of the then Municipal

12     Council.  Being a member of the League of Communists was not really key

13     for becoming a manager or a municipal president.  There were some people

14     who occupied those posts who actually weren't members.

15             As for Mr. Stojic, he was an exceptionally capable organiser.

16     Now, this was a new, big challenge facing him, going to Sarajevo; but he

17     had previously been manager of a public utilities company, not of a

18     hotel, and now he suddenly became minister, the Interior minister, no

19     less.  This is quite a spectacular promotion and quite a spectacular

20     challenge as well.

21             When he left for Sarajevo, there was no war.  The Croats and the

22     Muslims were hoisting their flags together and were still keeping

23     together.  I think that was seen by Mr. Stojic as an enormous challenge.

24     He wanted something more, and Neum was no longer large enough to satisfy

25     his ambition.

Page 38756

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Second question:  It is

 2     connected to the obscure reasons why you were arrested and detained for

 3     some time, later to be released.  I did try to understand, but it seemed

 4     rather complicated, and I really don't have an answer.  I have a lot of

 5     questions.

 6             One of the theories that I have that I'd like to put to you, in

 7     order to try to understand, is this:  It appears that you were quite

 8     close to Mr. Stojic back then.  Mr. Stojic was part of the HVO apparatus,

 9     because we know that he was the head of the Defence Department and then

10     Defence minister.  We also know that the Neum municipality was then

11     headed by Ivan Bender and that this municipality could play a part at the

12     level of the Presidency of the Croat Community.

13             When you were arrested, could that not be explained by some kind

14     of rivalry within the HVO apparatus and all these municipality leaders

15     who would like to gain power?  Were you perhaps the victim of some kind

16     of a conflict, which might account for the fact that you were arrested,

17     or do you have perhaps another explanation that might shed some light on

18     the issue ?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as I've pointed out

20     already, I believe that we were detained for one reason alone.  They were

21     trying to find an excuse for their own failures.  They were trying to

22     intimidate people.  They reckoned if they were able to simply arrest four

23     or five of the leading people in Neum and get away with it, and after

24     all, these people were in leading positions, what then could an ordinary

25     man expect?  There was no need to prove anything else, because their

Page 38757

 1     power by now was absolute.

 2             At the time, Mr. Stojic most certainly had nothing to do with any

 3     military bodies, regardless of the fact that he was a minister.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that you were arrested

 5     because someone wanted to, as it were, mask their failures.  As for

 6     Mr. Ivan Bender's failure, what was the duty?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not just Ivan Bender.  There were

 8     other people involved in this, in both civilian and military bodies.

 9     They probably had some plans.  I didn't know their plans.  I wasn't privy

10     to their plans because I wasn't a member of their circle.  Nevertheless,

11     they were up to something, and they failed.  Was it about setting up

12     civilian authorities, military authorities?  Whatever, but they needed a

13     scapegoat, and they found us.  They were suddenly faced with a great

14     amount of resistance from many, many people in Neum, and they realised

15     that their plan had no future.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

17             Before the break, does the 3D team have questions, Mr. Kovacic?

18             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

19     No questions for this witness.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 4D?

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] We will have a number of questions

22     for this witness, Your Honour.  A total of four minutes, I think, would

23     do.  I can start right away, if you'd like me to.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  Very well.  Go ahead.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

Page 38758

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kresic, I'm Vesna Alaburic, an attorney at

 2     law from Zagreb.  I will ask you several questions on behalf of

 3     General Milivoj Petkovic, a number of additional clarifications in

 4     relation to issues regarding your arrest.

 5             If I understood correctly what you said, you were arrested, or at

 6     least that's what you were told, based on an order from the commander of

 7     the 1st HVO Brigade, Mr. Nedeljko Obradovic; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's what I was told, but I never saw the actual order.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kresic, at the time of your arrest, you were a civilian or a

10     military person?

11        A.   I was a civilian.

12        Q.   Mr. Kresic, according to the regulations that were being applied

13     throughout Herceg-Bosna, what about the commanders of brigades or any

14     other HVO units; were they allowed to issue arrest warrants in relation

15     to civilians?

16        A.   I don't know.  We were civilians, despite which we were arrested.

17     On whose orders, I don't know.  There doesn't seem to be any paper trail

18     that I'm aware of.  That is why I asked to submit a report to someone

19     from the Security Service.  That was -- when Mr. Ivan Bandic came over,

20     he listened to our story, and he drew up an account -- a record of it,

21     rather, which I then received two months later.

22        Q.   You say "which I then received two months later."  You received

23     it two months later; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Based on this, I assume, and this is new to me, that you were the

Page 38759

 1     one who had initiated this interview with the people from the SIS; right?

 2        A.   Yes, because I wanted to have some sort of paper trail, if you

 3     like, documents to show for this, so that I myself knew what it was

 4     exactly and why we had been detained.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kresic, as far as you know, following this incident was the

 6     commander of the HVO's 1st Brigade dismissed, or perhaps his SIS

 7     assistant, Zara Pavlovic, whose name is also mentioned in this document,

 8     or indeed was anyone else fired from the Knez Domagoj HVO 1st Brigade?

 9        A.   I was not a military man myself, nor indeed did I know about any

10     dismissals, or removals, or replacements.  I don't think anything

11     actually happened.  I think they just decided to gloss over it and go

12     ahead with their job.

13        Q.   Based on your information, was someone perhaps initiating

14     anyone -- again, my question:  Mr. Kresic, based on your information, was

15     there any sort of procedure that was initiated for anyone's removal and

16     then for some reason this came to nothing?  Did you know anything about

17     anything like that going on?

18        A.   I don't know.  I simply wasn't involved in the work of those

19     bodies, particularly military ones.  I don't think anyone was eventually

20     replaced, and I don't think anybody was called to account for this.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 5D?

22             MR. PLAVEC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 6D?

24             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

25             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prlic Defence will have two

Page 38760

 1     issues to raise with this witness about subjects that were brought up

 2     during the chief, ten minutes maximum.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have the break now,

 4     since it is 10.30.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor, Counsel.

 8             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.

10             Good morning, Mr. Kresic.  I'm co-counsel for Mr. Jadranko Prlic,

11     and I will put a few brief questions to you in connection with your

12     testimony during the examination-in-chief.

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Tomanovic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, you said that for many years you

15     were and still are the manager of the Sunce Hotel, which was part of the

16     Apro Corporation Holding Company; is this correct?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   For the sake of interpretation, please count to five before you

19     respond to my question.

20             We'll look at some documents right away.  Please take the blue

21     binder have you before you, and the first document you will find there is

22     1D03136.  That is the longer document you see here.  It is a prospectus

23     containing a description of the activities of Apro Holding.  Do you

24     recognise the prospectus?

25        A.   First of all, I have to say that I participated in writing this

Page 38761

 1     prospectus, so I am very familiar with it.

 2             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the information of the

 3     Their Honours and the Prosecutor's office, I have the original of the

 4     prospectus here, if anyone would like to see it.

 5        Q.   Let's now look at the page most interesting for us at this

 6     moment.  In the bottom right-hand corner, you have numbers starting with

 7     "1D," and find page 1D580204.  That's towards the end of the booklet.

 8        A.   58?

 9        Q.   0204.

10        A.   Yes, I found it.

11        Q.   This book is in German and English.  There is no Croatian

12     translation, but I don't think that will be a problem.  In addition to

13     your company and your hotel, on this page we can see that Apro Holding

14     also encompassed about 36 companies, 111 basic organisations, that it had

15     14.500 employees, and that about 6.000 farmers participated or, rather,

16     were part of Apro Holding.  This is information from 1983.  Can we agree,

17     then, that when the war broke out in 1991, this company was even bigger,

18     far bigger than depicted in this prospectus?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you give us your estimate as to how many employees were then

21     employed in Apro Holding?

22        A.   We in Apro Holding had between 15.000 and 16.000 employees around

23     1990.

24        Q.   When you look through this prospectus, can we agree that

25     Apro Holding also encompassed various types of companies; research

Page 38762

 1     institutes, service companies, manufacturing companies, and trading

 2     companies?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Can we also agree also that the largest number of employees were

 5     actually employed in the manufacturing companies?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's look at the next document.  It's already in

 8     evidence.  That's 1D02390, and it's information on the situation in the

 9     Apro Corporation Mostar Holding Company, submitted to the HVO of

10     Mostar Municipality, the Economics Department, on the 4th of June, 1992.

11     This is information was delivered by the then general director,

12     Dr. Jadranko Prlic.  Please take a look at page 4 in your version, and

13     for the Judges it's page 2.  I'm interested in the paragraph that begins

14     with the word "Ukratko," in your version, and for the Judges, "Shortly."

15     It's the last item in paragraph 2, and I will read it to you.

16     Dr. Jadranko Prlic says:

17             "In short, due to the war, almost all manufacturing activity has

18     ceased, and the greatest damage is expected in perennial crops, (almost

19     3.500 hectares of vineyards and orchards).  Detailed information on the

20     damage will be obtained only after we have surveyed the situation, which

21     is at present impossible, for understandable reasons."

22             As you were there, you will agree that Dr. Jadranko Prlic, as the

23     general director of Apro Holding, delivered to the HVO of

24     Mostar Municipality correct information?

25        A.   Yes, yes, the information is correct.

Page 38763

 1        Q.   In view of the fact that most employees were employed in

 2     manufacturing companies, we may assume that these employees, in fact,

 3     lost their jobs or could no longer work for the simple reason that there

 4     was no work?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In our Law on Labour Relations, the one that was in force before

 7     the war, when such a situation arose there was a legal provision stating

 8     that such workers would be put on standby; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So we may conclude that the vast majority of employees were, in

11     fact, on standby; they hadn't, in fact, lost their jobs?

12        A.   Well, I would put it differently.  The vast majority of the

13     workers were left without work because the areas in which they worked

14     were devastated.  Factories were destroyed, burnt down, they were

15     inaccessible, and some of the employees were mobilised.

16        Q.   In the document I showed you previously, in this Apro Holding

17     prospectus, we saw information on the number of employees in 1983, but

18     nowhere in that prospectus can we find information as to the percentage

19     of Muslims, the percentage of Croats, or the percentage of Serbs.  Were

20     records of this kept in Apro at all?

21        A.   We in Apro were only concerned with employing people who were

22     professional and who wanted to work.  There was also a social welfare

23     element.  In certain backward areas, work-places were opened up so that

24     people would remain there; for example, in Duvno, Tomislavgrad,

25     Nevesinje, Popovo Polje, and so on.  But nobody cared about the ethnic

Page 38764

 1     make-up of the employees in any company, nor were any records of this

 2     kept at all.

 3        Q.   So based on everything we have said, we may conclude that the

 4     policy of Apro Holding in 1992 was not to fire all Muslim employees, but

 5     rather that the wartime situation brought the economy into such a state

 6     that people lost their jobs?

 7        A.   The idea that somebody wanted to fire employees of another

 8     ethnicity is not correct.  A large proportion of Serbs and Muslims

 9     remained in what we can conditionally refer to as Croatian areas.  I can

10     give you quite a few examples of this.  And in Neum, there were Serbs and

11     Muslims who remained.  The only ones who left were those who left of

12     their own accord, of their free will.  And regardless whether they were

13     Serbs, Croats, or Muslims, if they didn't show up for work for five to

14     seven days, they were fired, in compliance with the law.

15        Q.   Very well.  We'll now move on to another topic, and this topic

16     concerns the functioning of the local government in Neum.

17             In addition to being the managing director of Apro Holding at

18     that time, and your managing director, Dr. Prlic was also a professor at

19     Mostar University?

20        A.   Yes, he was, the university based in Neum.

21        Q.   We heard testimony here that Mostar University was relocated to

22     Neum in late 1992 because, for security reasons, it was impossible to

23     organise classes in Mostar.  You know that Dr. Prlic continued lecturing

24     at Mostar University even then, do you?

25        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

Page 38765

 1        Q.   And do you know that he travelled to Neum regularly in order to

 2     give those lecture?

 3        A.   Yes, I saw him many times.

 4        Q.   Did Dr. Prlic ever complain to you that when he arrived in Neum,

 5     the people -- the local people would allow him to stay in Neum for only

 6     two hours, and after two hours he would have to go back?

 7        A.   Well, those are those ridiculous situations when a professor

 8     arrives at a check-point and some guard tells him he can't pass through

 9     or that he can only stay for two hours, and then he has to go back.  This

10     means that at that time, Dr. Prlic found it more difficult to enter Neum

11     than other professors did.

12        Q.   You know that at the time, Dr. Prlic was not just a professor; he

13     was also the president of the interim executive authorities, the interim

14     executive board of the HVO.  Did that change the situation at all?

15        A.   At that time, Prlic was not an important person in politics.  His

16     importance was very small in Herceg-Bosna, and it was nonexistent in

17     Neum.  He was seen as a man who was supposed to organise civilian life,

18     civilian authorities, and linking up with the areas controlled by the HVO

19     because that was where he had experience.

20             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kresic.

21             I have no further questions for this witness.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just need a moment.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

25        Q.   Good morning, sir.  My name is Kim West.  I'm with the Office of

Page 38766

 1     the Prosecution, and I'm just going to ask some follow-up questions.

 2             May we have P100608.  It's a map, P10608.

 3             You have a binder next to you, the black -- the actual binder,

 4     and we're going to refer to a number of documents in there.  Can you turn

 5     to P10068.  This is a map.

 6        A.   P006?

 7        Q.   P10068; and it's map 39.  There you go.

 8             Sir, in front of you, you have a map of the entire BiH, and just

 9     so we have an idea of where Neum is located, can you just point out on

10     the board -- you have in front of you a pen that you can use to mark on

11     the board, and if I can have the usher's assistance, you can just circle

12     where Neum is located.

13        A.   This is Neum here [marks].

14        Q.   So right next to the red dot that you put on the screen; correct?

15             And can we have an IC number for that, please.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             The map just marked by the witness shall be given

19     Exhibit IC00979.  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             MS. WEST:

21        Q.   Mr. Kresic, you had indicated in your direct testimony that in

22     1981, you were the head of the Census Committee.  Would you agree with me

23     that by 1991, the next census ten years later, there was an absolute

24     majority of Croats living in Neum?

25        A.   I said in 1981.

Page 38767

 1        Q.   And my question is:  Would you agree with me that by 1991, ten

 2     years later, there was still an absolute majority of Croats living in

 3     Neum?

 4        A.   The ethnic make-up of the population in 1981 and 1991 was almost

 5     identical.

 6        Q.   If we can go to P10912.  This is another map, P10912.  P10912.

 7     I'm sure you can see on the screen in front of you now.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   There you go, and it's the colour version in front of you.  This

10     is information on Neum from the actual 1991 census.  And in 1991, do you

11     agree with me that the total population of Neum municipality was 4.325 or

12     thereabouts?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And of that number, the number of Croats was 3.792, the number of

15     Serbs was 207, and the number of Muslims is 190, the number of Yugoslavs

16     was 90, and the number of others and unidentified was 46.  Does that

17     appear accurate to you?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, this information is accurate.

19        Q.   So in your testimony today, you actually indicated that in Neum,

20     you were a multi-ethnic community.  Would you agree with me that although

21     there were at least four ethnicities in Neum, the primary ethnicity was

22     Croat?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Kresic, from late 1992 to early 1994, was there any actual

25     fighting going on in the municipality of Neum between the HVO and the

Page 38768

 1     ABiH, actual conflicts, battles going on?

 2        A.   The conflicts between the BH Army and the HVO did not occur on

 3     the territory of Neum.  The fighting that took place in Neum was between

 4     the Serbian Army, the Army of the SAO Krajina or whatever it was called,

 5     the Serbs, and our HVO, but there was no conflict with the Muslims in

 6     Neum.

 7        Q.   And would you also agree that the ABiH didn't even have a

 8     presence in Neum during that period of time?

 9        A.   I wouldn't fully agree with that.  Some members of the Army

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina were present in Neum.  They had training there and

11     exercises.

12        Q.   Fair enough.  So they were training there, but they weren't

13     involved in any conflicts with either the Serbs or the HVO?

14        A.   No, that he weren't.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you had --

16        A.   On the territory of Neum, that is.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You described in your direct testimony sort of the

18     government of Neum, and you indicated that Ivan Bender was in charge in

19     Neum.  Do you remember that testimony?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you agree with me that Ivan Bender was a founding member of

22     the HZ-HB?

23        A.   He was one of the founders, yes.

24        Q.   And you would also agree that had the HVO been dissatisfied with

25     his performance in Neum, they could have dismissed him?

Page 38769

 1        A.   You mean remove Bender?

 2        Q.   Correct.

 3        A.   It wasn't easy to remove him.  He was the authority there.  He

 4     would hardly remove himself.  Every municipality was an authority in

 5     itself, and the representatives of the municipalities made up a broader

 6     organisation.  It wasn't easy to replace one.  Bender never wanted to

 7     replace himself.

 8        Q.   But the HVO municipalities -- or the government that Bender was

 9     in charge of in Neum was under the auspices of the HVO, was it not?

10             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  I wish to ask my

11     learned friend to be very precise when she says under whose authority she

12     thinks the municipalities were.

13             [In English] "Under the auspices of the HVO."  What HVO, who?

14             MS. WEST:

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, let's look at P00303, and this may help us along.

16     P00303.  You actually have it in front of you on the screen as well, and

17     if we could go to Articles 13, 14 and 15, second page of the English,

18     second page of the B/C/S.  There you go.  I'm going to review these, and

19     then we can talk about this.

20             This is the 3rd of July, 1992, a statutory decision on the

21     temporary organisation of executive authority and administration in the

22     territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  If we look at

23     Article 13, it says:

24             "The HVO has the right and duty to annul a regulation passed by a

25     department or other administrative body which is detrimental to the

Page 38770

 1     general interest or which contravenes established policy or positive

 2     law."

 3             Article 14:

 4             "The HVO shall supervise the work of its departments and

 5     municipality HVOs.  The HVO may use its supervisory power to annul or

 6     abolish individual legal acts passed by the bodies referred to in the

 7     foregoing paragraph."

 8             And Article 15:

 9             "If a municipal HVO has passed a decision or performed an act

10     violating the basic league provisions of the HZ-HB, the HVO has the right

11     and the duty to dissolve the said municipal HVO.

12             "The mandate of all HVO members shall cease on the day the

13     decision to dissolve the said municipal HVO is issued.

14             "The HVO shall propose members for a new municipal HVO within

15     eight days of having dissolved the old one."

16             Mr. Kresic, my question to you is:  Isn't it true that

17     Ivan Bender was the head of the municipal HVO in Neum?

18        A.   He was at the head of the municipal HVO in Neum, yes.

19        Q.   In regard to these articles that I have just read out, were you

20     aware that the HVO had made these decisions?

21        A.   No.  This is the first time I've seen this.  As I said, I did not

22     participate in such things, and I never even read this.  I wasn't focused

23     on that.  It's the first time I've seen it, and I know nothing about it.

24        Q.   So even though this is the first time you've actually seen this

25     regulation, did you see -- putting aside you've not seen it, did you see

Page 38771

 1     any execution of these types of powers going on in Neum?

 2        A.   How could I have seen that?  I saw what I saw in everyday life,

 3     in normal communication.  This is the first time I've seen or heard about

 4     this.  There may have been some things in writing that I don't know

 5     about.

 6        Q.   Were you aware whether Ivan Bender had -- any of the decisions he

 7     made were ever nullified in Neum?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  I doubt that anything like that ever

 9     happened.  There may have been some conflicts of opinion at those

10     meetings, but for someone to alter a decision of Bender's, I'm not aware

11     of that.

12        Q.   Mr. Kresic, you testified at page 18, that the authority in Neum,

13     and you said the authority was concentrated in the president of a

14     municipality, not just in Neum, but in other municipalities.  So you had

15     some sense as to what sort of power the local HVO government held; true?

16        A.   Well, I saw that in my day-to-day living.  I wasn't involved, but

17     it was the sort of thing that you could see.  Neum is a small town.

18     Everything that went on went on through the municipal authorities.

19        Q.   And would you agree with me that it would appear quite

20     reasonable, in fact, that none of these things that I read out,

21     Article 13, 14 and 15, appear to happen in Neum because it was quite

22     different than the other municipalities in Herceg-Bosna?

23        A.   I don't think I can speak to that.  I simply don't know.  There

24     are things that I don't know, so I would not commit.  I simply don't

25     know.

Page 38772

 1        Q.   All right.  But nonetheless, you would agree that Neum was

 2     different than other municipalities because, number one, it had and

 3     overwhelming Croat absolute majority; and, number two, there was no

 4     conflict actually going on in the Neum area between the HVO and the ABiH?

 5        A.   Neum itself is peculiar because of its geographical position.

 6     Neum's history is also quite peculiar.  Another thing that is peculiar

 7     about Neum is the ethnic make-up.

 8        Q.   Let me go to P07876, P07876.  You'll see it in front of you in a

 9     moment.  This is a February 16th, 1994 decision signed by Mate Boban, and

10     it's a decision on the nomination of the members of the President Council

11     of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna; and it indicates who the 11

12     members will be, and it says, "The members of the Presidential Council

13     should be --"

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Please read slowly, Counsel.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Kresimir Zubak, chairman, then number two is Ivan Bender as a

17     member.

18             My question, Mr. Kresic, is that:  Would you agree with me that

19     at least by February of 1994, this document would show that the HVO was

20     not displeased with Ivan Bender's service in Neum because they appointed

21     him to a particular council?

22             MS. TOMANOVIC:  Microphone, please.

23             [Interpretation] Again, could my learned friend please

24     distinguish between president of the Presidency of the Croatian Republic

25     of Herceg-Bosna, the Presidency of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna,

Page 38773

 1     and the executive organ of the Government of the Croatian Republic of

 2     Herceg-Bosna because at this point in time the HVO is no more than a

 3     military wing.  We are talking about a time when the Croatian Republic of

 4     Herceg-Bosna was in existence.

 5             MS. WEST:

 6        Q.   Sir, can you answer the question?

 7        A.   I cannot say anything about thi, because I know nothing about it.

 8     I know nothing about this document.  I don't know who the members were.

 9     The HDZ, the organisation appointed certain council members, and I know

10     nothing about that.  I don't know what to say.  Were they pleased, were

11     they not pleased, to what extent, I don't know.  I can say nothing about

12     that.

13        Q.   If we can go to P01831, P01831.  This is an April 8th, 1993

14     proposal.  It's signed by Bruno Stojic, and it's -- the subject is:

15     "Proposal for the revocation of the decision on mobilising material and

16     technical equipment in Mostar," and I'm going to go to the second-to-last

17     paragraph, just the ver end, and we can talk about that, where it writes

18     that:

19             "We maintain that the municipal HVO is not authorised to

20     prescribe a mobilisation procedure different from the one prescribed by

21     the competent body.  We are also of the opinion it is not necessary to

22     pass regulation on defence issues --"


24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel slow down, please.

25             MS. WEST:  Thank you:

Page 38774

 1             "We are also of the opinion that it is not necessary to pass

 2     regulations on defence issues that have been regulated by the Decree on

 3     the Armed Forces."

 4        Q.   Mr. Kresic, this is an example of the HVO nullifying a municipal

 5     regulation, and my question for you regards again your commentary or your

 6     testimony today that the authority was concentrated in the presidents of

 7     the municipality in Neum.  Would you agree with me that this example that

 8     I'm showing you, although it's in Mostar, would suggest that, in fact,

 9     the real authority came from the HVO in Mostar, over the municipalities,

10     and it was not in the local municipalities themselves?

11        A.   The authority probably did come from Mostar later on, but the

12     municipalities held on to their own power for a while, probably.  It took

13     some time for a decision to become operational.  That is my opinion,

14     really.  This document, I know nothing about it.  All these are military

15     documents.

16        Q.   All right.  So this document you indicate is a military document,

17     signed by Bruno Stojic, so would you agree with me that Mr. Stojic had

18     some authority over military matters?

19        A.   I cannot disagree.  Certain authority, yes, I would agree to

20     that, but I don't know what kind of authority exactly.  This is simply

21     not something I ever discussed with Mr. Stojic or, for that matter,

22     anyone else.

23        Q.   May we go to P01716, P01716.  This is a February 1993 document.

24     It's signed by Mr. Prlic.  It's an invitation to a meeting, and it's to

25     the presidents of the HVO, and lists a number of municipalities, Neum

Page 38775

 1     being one.  And in it, he writes there's going to be a working meeting of

 2     the Croatian Defence Council of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, the

 3     participation of presidents of H -- of municipal HVO's on the 26th of

 4     February, and it goes on.  It says the subject of the meeting is a

 5     military security situation on the territory of the Croatian Community of

 6     Herceg-Bosna:

 7             "In light of the importance of this working session, we expect

 8     your mandatory presence."

 9             Mr. Kresic, would it be fair to say that this demand on the part

10     of Mr. Prlic suggests some relative power over the municipal governments?

11        A.   Mr. Prlic probably called that meeting at the time, yes, in order

12     to try to reach agreements on a number of issues, as specified here.  All

13     those who were called to the meeting, who were invited and who came, were

14     they listening to Prlic, were they following what he was saying, do they

15     accept his proposals?  I simply don't know.  Probably his effort was

16     focusing on trying to put all of these people together.  I'm not sure if

17     they reached any agreements or not.  I'm not sure what amount of

18     influence Prlic could exercise over those presidents and municipal

19     presidents and all those people assembled there.

20        Q.   Although you're not sure the amount of influence he could

21     exercise, he had enough influence to demand their presence; correct?

22             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm really sorry, Ms. West, but it has already

23     many times been asked by the interpreters to kindly slow down, both of

24     you.  I don't understand why shouldn't it be followed.  Thank you.

25             MS. WEST:  My apologies, Judge Prandler.

Page 38776

 1        Q.   So my question, Mr. Kresic.  You indicated that you weren't sure

 2     of the amount, I think, of authority that he could exercise; but you

 3     would agree that he did exercise enough authority to demand their

 4     mandatory presence at this meeting?

 5        A.   He provides a list of all the municipalities that were supposed

 6     to attend, probably.  Did they all show up?  I don't know.  I wasn't a

 7     member of any of those bodies, nor do I know anything about this.  You

 8     have been asking me all these questions.  I don't think they have much to

 9     do with the evidence that I'm here for, frankly.  I simply don't know

10     about these things.  I was a mere civilian.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm going to remind you again that you testified here today

12     that the authority was concentrated in the presidents of the

13     municipalities; so, in fact, you have given testimony on this particular

14     issue, so I'm going to ask you a little bit more.

15             If we can go to P00788, P00788.  This is another letter signed by

16     Prlic.  It's November 1992, and the subject is contacts --

17             MS. TOMANOVIC:  Just a second.

18             [Interpretation] This document is not signed by Jadranko Prlic.

19     I think all of us in this courtroom are perfectly familiar with Prlic's

20     signature.  All this says is "President of the HVO HZ-HB" and then added

21     by hand "Jadranko Prlic."  This is not his signature, and we have no idea

22     if he actually produced this or not.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

24             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

25        Q.   This is a document.  The subject is:  "Contacts with

Page 38777

 1     representatives of UNPROFOR."

 2             And it says:

 3             "A large number of the UNPROFOR units have recently been deployed

 4     in the territory of the HZ-HB in order to protect humanitarian corridors

 5     and then carry out their basic task and other specific tasks.

 6             "Bearing in mind that the manner of their deployment may have

 7     consequences for the future development of the war in these territories,

 8     the official contacts with the representatives of UNPROFOR should be

 9     maintained following the consultation and coordination with the Croatian

10     Defence Council of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna."

11             Sir, would you agree with me this is another example of Prlic's

12     ability to influence -- his ability to influence control over the

13     municipalities?

14        A.   Based on what I knew about the situation, and I was not a member

15     of any military or political bodies, I didn't have the impression that

16     the municipal authorities were lending too much of an ear to

17     President Prlic.  He was formerly the president of the HVO HZ-HB, but I

18     don't think he enjoyed the full support or even a formal support from any

19     of the municipal presidents.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Kresic, you have not -- you don't have a document to

21     show us to support your contention that you did not have the impression

22     that the municipal authorities were lending too much of an ear to

23     President Prlic?  Do you have anything to show us?

24             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness is under

25     no obligation at all to produce any documents at all for the benefit of

Page 38778

 1     the OTP.  It's the OTP that must prove what they are claiming.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Prosecutor, it is not for

 3     the witness to provide documents in support.

 4             Witness, would you mind reading, in your own language, the final

 5     formula at the end of the document.  Please look at the document,

 6     Witness.  Could you read, in your own language, the words that are

 7     written?  I see an "S," and then I see "Postovanjem" [phoen].  Would you

 8     mind reading this slowly?  What does this mean?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what it means

10     specifically, but I can read it for you:

11             "Bearing in mind the manner of their deployment --"

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, look.  You see handwritten

13     there is "Jadranko Prlic," and then to the left of it we see some

14     greetings.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no.  Oh, "respectfully."

16     "Respectfully."

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Precisely.  Well,

18     "respectfully."  You were the president of a municipal.  Therefore, I

19     have a question for you.  When somebody sends you a letter in which it is

20     written "respectfully," in terms of power or authority, how do you read

21     such a letter?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think this letter was

23     written by Mr. Prlic or, indeed, signed by Mr. Prlic.  As for

24     "respectfully," in a document like this, this formula should not be

25     included, or at least that's my opinion.

Page 38779

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, what makes you think that this was not

 3     written by - and that may on the order or dictation of - Mr. Prlic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can assume that the document

 5     might have been dictated by Mr. Prlic.  However, these are serious

 6     matters, and I think Mr. Prlic is more than intelligent enough to allow

 7     something like this to be signed by anyone other than him.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. West.

 9             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. West.  Excuse me.

11             Witness, on page 53, lines 15 to 20, you stated that Mr. Prlic

12     did not have enough support or authority, if I understood you well, to

13     impose anything to presidents of municipalities.  My question is as

14     follows:  Why are you of the view that he could not really impose

15     anything serious on the presidents of municipalities?  Was it because of

16     the statutes governing the HZ-HB that would not give him enough power, or

17     was it because of his own personality, that it was not a strong enough

18     personality to impose anything or to have influence over the presidents

19     of municipalities?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Prlic was a professional who

21     was now there to, in a way, set up the work of the civilian authorities.

22     As for military or political matters, he was not nearly as powerful.  In

23     some circles with some leaders, he had no power at all.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you knew Mr. Prlic,

25     didn't you?

Page 38780

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You knew Mr. Ivan Bender?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which of the two is not --

 5     well, not intelligent, but the stronger personality?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, Jadranko Prlic

 7     is by far the more powerful person.  Nevertheless, that would apply to a

 8     normal context, to a European context, if you like.  In a small

 9     tightly-knit community like Neum, I suppose you would find Ivan Bender's

10     personality to be the more powerful one.

11             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will have to correct the

12     interpretation of what the witness just said, page 56, line 8.  The

13     interpretation is "powerful person," and the witness said "more powerful

14     person," and I think a better interpretation would be "stronger

15     personality."  Am I right?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I thought.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Kresic, would you be so kind as to look at

18     the Croatian version of this letter, which you say could not have been

19     written by Mr. Prlic.

20             Does something strike you -- when you look at this, is there

21     something extraordinary, technically?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this letter is technically

23     off the mark, or illiterate, if you wish.  This letter was written by

24     someone who was simply illiterate.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I very much doubt that.  How do you think it was

Page 38781

 1     written; on a normal typewriter or by some special technical means?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was probably typewritten.

 3     Nevertheless, if I look at how it was put together, no method known to me

 4     for business correspondence was applied here.  That much is certain.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I would not subscribe to that.  What is --

 6     why do you think it's illiterate?  What is special about this letter?

 7     Can you tell us?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The format is unusual.  It's not

 9     the one used for normal business communication.  One just doesn't write a

10     document like this, like that.  Where it says "Confidential," as far as I

11     know, it's never there, is it?  The address, recipient, "All municipal

12     HVO," again that shouldn't be there.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'll help you, I'll help you.  You will find a

14     number of signs in the text, which are not really letters but technical

15     signs that make no sense at all.  Why do you think is that so?  For

16     instance, in "zastice" [phoen] in the second line.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was probably an old typewriter

18     they were using.  The letter S wasn't working properly, and then instead

19     of that, they put a parentheses there.  It's a simple technical error, a

20     short-coming, if you like.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Kresic, none of the typical letters with

22     accent signs of the Croatian letter -- the Croatian alphabet are properly

23     typed here.  They are all exchanged by some merely technical sign that

24     makes no sense.  I put it to you that this letter was written by telex,

25     by an international system which does not have the adaption to be

Page 38782

 1     correctly Croatian.  Does that sound plausible to you?  Have you heard

 2     about telex?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to work with one, but that

 4     was a long time ago.  That just might be the case, what you're

 5     suggesting.  It might have been produced by some internationals, but I

 6     don't know.  I can't confirm that for you.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes.  As you know telex, have you ever received

 8     a telex with a signature?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most parts, there was no

10     signature.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

12             Ms. West.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Sir, now we're going to move to your arrest in May of 1993.

15             It's your testimony today that you were arrested by the HVO

16     because of your political views?

17        A.   I wasn't arrested by the HVO.  I was arrested by a group of four

18     uniformed men who said they were from some police.  Or, rather, why was I

19     arrested?  I can give you my assumption, because I don't know for a fact.

20     I think it was because of the opposition that we were putting up and the

21     noncompliance with the policies being implemented at the time.

22        Q.   Let me remind you what you testified to.  You said:

23             "I was detained for one reason.  They were trying to find an

24     excuse for their failure."

25             And then you went on and you said:

Page 38783

 1             "But I didn't know their plans.  They were up to something, and

 2     they failed."

 3             And this was in response to a question by Judge Antonetti.  Sir,

 4     can you be any more specific than that?

 5        A.   The people who ordered our arrest had their own reasons for that.

 6     We don't know those reasons, but those of us who were arrested had

 7     assumptions about those reasons based on our later interviews and the

 8     stories that we heard.  The crux of the matter was they probably felt

 9     they failed to complete some of their own activities, and they were

10     looking for a reason and an excuse to put forward to their own colleagues

11     and superiors.  It wasn't their fault, they were trying to say, it was

12     that other group that was to blame, and they wanted to shoulder all of

13     their responsibility to us.

14        Q.   And when you speak about "the people who ordered our arrest," do

15     you believe that one of those people was Ivan Bender?

16        A.   I cannot be positive about this, but we have certain ideas and we

17     know that nothing at all could be done without Ivan Bender,

18     General Obradovic, and a number of other people.  The least I can say is

19     that all of them knew about our arrest.  They had given the order.

20     Probably it was the general alone who officially should have given the

21     order.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

23     of the sentence.

24             MS. WEST:

25        Q.   Can you repeat the last part of your last sentence?

Page 38784

 1        A.   They all knew, in a way, and they had agreed on it, but the order

 2     was most probably signed by General Obradovic.  Why do we know that, that

 3     General Obradovic signed the order?  Because when we were to be released,

 4     it was again General Obradovic who had to sign the order, but he wasn't

 5     around, he couldn't be found, it was already late, so they just released

 6     us without an order.

 7        Q.   And would it be fair to describe your relationship with

 8     Ivan Bender as one of political rivalry?

 9        A.   Political rivalry, other sorts of rivalry, but we are not

10     enemies.  We have contacts, we talk.  We each have our own story to tell,

11     and our stories are different.  But as time has elapsed, we have buried

12     the battle axe.

13        Q.   Sir, when you were arrested in May, were you -- is it your

14     testimony the five of you were all held in one room together?

15        A.   Yes.  That was a room of some 30 square metres.  We had a table

16     and two chairs there, and that's all.

17        Q.   And you testified that you thought Stojic was the "key man for

18     our release."  Do you remember that testimony?

19        A.   I can only assume that.  I can't be certain about it.

20        Q.   Is this assumption based on the fact that Mr. Stojic held a

21     superior position in the HVO and you knew he had the power to get you

22     out?

23        A.   Well, firstly, I would say that his power was not very great,

24     because had he had real power, we would probably not have been detained

25     in the first place.  But when word got around, because our arrest was

Page 38785

 1     widely talked about in Capljina, Neum and Stolac, and reactions were

 2     stronger than those people had thought they would be, since we were

 3     people of influence, people who were esteemed as businessmen, all five of

 4     us, who were held in high regard, Mr. Stojic and some others probably

 5     intervened or asked for our release because they had realised they had

 6     made a mistake and that there was no reason to detain us.

 7        Q.   Sir, you didn't answer my question.  The question was:  Is your

 8     assumption based on the fact that Mr. Stojic held a superior position in

 9     the HVO and you knew he had the power to get you out?

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

11             Your Honours, I wish to object because the witness has fully

12     answered this question.  The witness said that Mr. Stojic did not have

13     that power, so he has fully answered this question.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. West, is there any

15     contradiction in the answer?  Ms. Nozica said that the question was asked

16     and answered.

17             MS. WEST:  I disagree, Your Honour.  I don't think he answered

18     the question.

19             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The witness can repeat, but could we

20     please look at the reply.  It's still on the transcript, page 60,

21     line 24, to page 61, line 1.

22             MS. WEST:  And in that reply, he describes Stojic's power, but he

23     does not answer the question as to whether his assumption is based on his

24     estimation of Stojic's power.  He gave testimony here that he assumed it

25     was Stojic, and the question is:  Why did you assume it was Stojic?

Page 38786

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that had Stojic been as

 2     powerful as that, we would not have been arrested.  Someone would have

 3     had to consult him.  Stojic and some others, I don't know who, learned of

 4     our arrest only subsequently.  For something like this to happen without

 5     Mr. Stojic's knowledge shows that nobody asked him or consulted him about

 6     such things, because had they done so, we would not have been detained.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Sir, this Trial Chamber has heard the testimony of

 9     Slobodan Bozic, who is another senior person in the HVO.  Do you know who

10     he is?

11        A.   Yes, I know Mr. Bozic.

12        Q.   And at pages 36582 through 96, he also spoke about the same

13     subject.  The subject was his vouching for people he knew to get them out

14     of prison.  He indicated that he, in fact, did that.  Would you agree

15     with me that if Stojic's deputy, deputy of the Defence Department, had

16     the power to do that, certainly Bruno Stojic had the power to do it?

17        A.   I don't know what powers Mr. Bozic had, who got him out, or

18     whatever, and I also don't know what powers Mr. Stojic had and what he

19     was able to do.  I can only assert that the municipal authorities did not

20     value either Mr. Stojic or Mr. Prlic very highly, as I've already said.

21        Q.   Now, on direct testimony, you showed us a document of a friend of

22     yours.  I think his name was Pero Kralj, who was a Croat who was working

23     in the Republic of Croatia for an Atlantic sailing company, and you

24     indicated that you had coffee with him and you -- he told you that he had

25     to leave his job because he had not filled out some correct paperwork.

Page 38787

 1     Do you remember that testimony?  Sir, do you remember that testimony?

 2        A.   [In English] Okay.

 3        Q.   And in the document we looked at, it was because -- it said that

 4     foreign citizens can sign a labour contract only if they are a permanent

 5     resident of the Republic of Croatia and if he has a work permit.  Sir,

 6     are you a Croatian -- are you a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] I am a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina is my domicile, my home country.  Mr. Pero Kralj is

 9     not a friend of mine, he's simply an acquaintance, because his wife works

10     in the Sunce Hotel, she works in my hotel.  So he came to complain that

11     he had been fired, and I had coffee with him and tried to console him.

12        Q.   Sir, are you also a Croatian citizen?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And when did you become a citizen?

15        A.   Of Croatia?  I became a Croatian citizen in 1991 or 1992, as soon

16     as Croatia became independence.

17        Q.   And where did you apply to become a citizen?

18        A.   In Zagreb.

19        Q.   And are you aware that after that period of time going in 1993,

20     it was actually possible to apply and get Croatian citizenship by making

21     that application in Herceg-Bosna?

22        A.   I don't know.  I think it's possible, but I don't know.

23             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

24             The Prosecutor is stating something that is not in evidence.  She

25     should know more about the testimony of people who are competent to

Page 38788

 1     testify about this point.

 2             MS. WEST:  Your Honour --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This topic has already been

 4     addressed, but you may put your question.  Perhaps the witness will be

 5     able to answer.

 6             MS. WEST:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to 10921 -- it's P10921,

 8     and this is -- English, it's page 20 of 24, and in the upper right-hand

 9     corner it says that.  It's the loose paper, but you're going to see it in

10     front of you, nonetheless, and you'll have the B/C/S right in front of

11     you.  I'm going to read a paragraph and then ask you a question.  This is

12     a UNHCR report from January of 1997.  It's the US Department of State

13     country report on human rights practices, 1996, for Croatia, and it says:

14             "The Law on Citizenship distinguishes between those with a claim

15     to Croatian ethnicity and those without.  The 'Croatian people' are

16     eligible to become citizens of Croatia even if they were not citizens of

17     the former Socialist Republic of Croatia, as long as they submit a

18     written statement that they consider themselves Croatian citizens.

19     Others must satisfy more stringent requirements through naturalisation in

20     order to obtain citizenship, even if they were previously lawful

21     residents of Croatia as citizens of the former Yugoslavia.  While an

22     application for citizenship is pending, the applicant is considered an

23     alien and is denied rights such as social allowances, including medical

24     care, pensions, free education, and employment in the civil service.  The

25     Government's practice of discriminating against ethnic and religious

Page 38789

 1     minorities, particularly Serbs and Muslims, in the issuance of

 2     citizenship papers drew harsh criticism.  Human rights organisations

 3     reported numerous documented cases in which the Interior Ministry denied

 4     citizenship papers to long-term residents of Croatia (that is, resident

 5     in Croatia long before the country declared its independence).  For

 6     example, residents of several ethnic Muslim villages near Slunj (a total

 7     of some 500 people) were unable to obtain Croatian citizenship, and in

 8     some cases entire villages were rendered stateless.  Human rights groups

 9     complain that the Interior Ministry frequently based its denials on

10     Article 26 of the Law on Citizenship, which permits it to deny

11     citizenship papers to persons otherwise qualified to be citizens of

12     Croatia for reasons of national interest.  The law does not require the

13     reasons to be explained, and human rights organisations reported that the

14     police continued to refuse citizenship applications without full

15     explanation."

16             Sir, in 1992, going into 1993, were you aware that these were the

17     regulations in Croatia to get citizenship?

18        A.   I don't know what the Croatian regulations were.  I know that I

19     applied in 1992 and received Croatian documents, and I also know that all

20     those who were born in Croatia and had permanent residence there were

21     able to get Croatian documents, regardless of their ethnicity, whereas

22     those who wanted to obtain Croatian papers for reasons which were

23     problematic, for example, people not residing in Croatia, not born in

24     Croatia, could not get Croatian documents because there was no basis for

25     them to get them.  Maybe -- it says some villages here, but all those

Page 38790

 1     people who lived -- who had permanent residence in Croatia were able to

 2     obtain Croatian papers without any problems.

 3             I don't know what UNHCR recorded.  Maybe in the course of the war

 4     or after the war, there were problems, but Croatia, as a state, has its

 5     root for obtaining papers which has to be gone through.  I know that even

 6     today not even a Croat can get papers unless they fill in certain forms

 7     and make an application.

 8        Q.   Can we go to P10920, 10920.  This is a piece of the

 9     Official Gazette of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and in it, it

10     talks about pursuant to a ruling of the High Court in Mostar, and then it

11     says "The Nova Company," and this is the promoters, are Vesna Kresic, as

12     director; Tomislav Kresic as deputy director.  The activities are:

13     Wholesale and retail trade; home trade; foreign trade; trade in transit;

14     trade by means of mobile shops of any food or non-food products, with the

15     exception of medicines; pharmaceutical preparations and primary products;

16     medical and lavatory equipment; defence and civilian protection

17     equipment; and foreign trade and antiquities.  It goes on to talk about

18     the company.

19             But was this the registration of your own private company?

20        A.   I was never deputy director of that company.  My wife had her own

21     company with some other people, but I was never either a managing

22     director or a deputy director.  I never worked in that company.

23        Q.   Okay.  So you're saying that your involvement here was a mistake?

24        A.   I was never deputy director.

25        Q.   But nonetheless, this is December of 1996.  Is that about the

Page 38791

 1     time that you say your wife was involved in registering this company?

 2        A.   My wife worked as a forwarding agent.  This was a company

 3     registered only for forwarding and customs affairs in Neum.  She had one

 4     employee and that's all.  I don't know whether I'm listed as a co-owner.

 5     That's another question.  She could be the owner and I the co-owner, but

 6     certainly not deputy director.  I was never that.

 7        Q.   You're not denying that this is your wife's company, or group, or

 8     whatever.  It's just that you're saying it's misstated that you were the

 9     deputy director.  But this was your wife's group; correct?

10        A.   It's possible that I'm listed there as the co-owner, yes.

11        Q.   December of 1996, the war in BiH was well over, was it not?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Why is this company listed in the Official Gazette of

14     Herceg-Bosna and not the Official Gazette of the Federation?

15        A.   That was the practice at the time.  That's what our lawyers told

16     us had to be done.  I don't know why.

17             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, may we go into private session?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38792











11 Page 38792 redacted. Private session.















Page 38793

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now back in open session.

10     Thank you, Your Honours.

11             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, do you have any

13     redirect?

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, only a few

15     to clarify some points.

16                           Re-examination by Ms. Nozica:

17        Q.   Mr. Kresic, you were shown the excerpt from the registration

18     published in the Official Gazette of the Croatian Republic of

19     Herceg-Bosna for the company of which your wife was the director.  You

20     mentioned a lawyer.  Could you clarify to Their Honours who did the

21     technical part of the job?  Was it you who put this notice in the

22     Official Gazette?  Who did all the work about registering the company?

23        A.   As regards registering the company in Neum, this was done by

24     lawyers.  They asked for certain documents.  We obtained the documents,

25     and then they took those documents to the court in Mostar, where the

Page 38794

 1     registration was made, and we had nothing further to do with that.  We

 2     gave the papers to the court, the court registered the company, and that

 3     was it.  It's not up to us to put a notice in the Official Gazette.  The

 4     court does that ex officio.

 5        Q.   You also said today, in answer to my learned friend's question,

 6     that Mr. Mahmutcehajic spent several days in Neum and that after that he

 7     went to Korcula, that his daughter-in-law came to collect him, and that

 8     he went to Korcula.  Can you tell Their Honours where Korcula is, in what

 9     state?

10        A.   Korcula is in the Republic of Croatia.  It's an island about

11     100 kilometres away from Neum.  His daughter-in-law lived in Korcula

12     during the war, and she came to collect her father-in-law when she heard

13     that he was in Neum, and took him to Korcula to stay with her.

14        Q.   When asked by the Prosecutor about your arrest today, you said

15     that you didn't know whether you were released upon the intervention of

16     Mr. Stojic, and you explained why you thought he didn't have those

17     powers.  Let me just remind you, and we will bring up the document in

18     e-court so you don't have to look for it, 2D00515 [Realtime transcript

19     read in error, "2D00155"], which is information about your arrest.

20             On page 2, and I mentioned this in the examination-in-chief, I

21     showed this part to you, it says it was Dragan Curcic who called up

22     Mr. Ramljak, and he told him he had an order from Mr. Boban that you

23     should be released.  And it says further in the text that persons

24     introducing themselves as Stojic, Mircenko [phoen], and Boban rang up,

25     and what is most important in this document, on page 2, and you have that

Page 38795

 1     document before you, it says after Mr. Dragan Curcic rang up, saying that

 2     he had an order from Mr. Boban, that after that a conversation with

 3     Mr. Obradovic took place on the phone, and then a decision was reached by

 4     Milenko Manala, Mr. Obradovic's deputy, that you should be released.  Can

 5     you confirm that what this document says is correct?

 6        A.   More or less, yes, that's how it was.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8     I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             Witness, on behalf of my colleagues, I would like to thank you

11     for having come to testify at the request of the Stojic Defence counsel,

12     to contribute to the truth.

13             Unless Mr. Khan has something to say --

14             MR. KHAN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President -- Your Honours.  Just

15     one correction for the transcript.  At page 70, line 16, in fact, it

16     should be "2D515," not "2D155."  Just that one clarification.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please give us the number

18     again, Mr. Khan, because there are little karats on the transcript.

19             MR. KHAN:  Indeed.  It should be at page 70, line 16, the

20     correct exhibit number should be "2D515," rather than "2D155," which it

21     currently records.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Witness, I would

23     like to thank you for having come to The Hague to testify and to

24     contribute to the truth.  I wish you a safe journey home.

25             And I will ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

Page 38796

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are two topics I would

 3     like to address briefly.  The first is an oral decision which I shall

 4     read out slowly.

 5             Oral decision on the Prlic's Defence, leave to reply to the

 6     Prosecution's response, on the application filed by the Prlic Defence for

 7     the provisional release of Jadranko Prlic on the 2nd of April, 2009.

 8             On the 30th of March, 2009, the Prlic Defence filed an urgent

 9     application for leave to reply to the Prosecution's response on the

10     application for the provisional release of the accused Prlic filed by the

11     Prlic Defence team on the 17th of March, 2009, on the ground that the

12     objections raised by the Prosecution in its response are unfounded and

13     reflect a misunderstanding of the submissions made by the Prlic Defence

14     team in its application of the 17th of March, 2009.

15             The Trial Chamber holds that the Prlic Defence did not

16     demonstrate that these were exceptional circumstances that would warrant

17     the filing of a response in this particular case and decides, therefore,

18     to dismiss the application to respond filed by the Prlic Defence.

19             The Trial Chamber recalls, furthermore and once again, that the

20     exceptional nature of the right to respond and emphasises, thereby, that

21     such a reply may not provide the parties with an opportunity to support

22     their initial application.  In short, the Prlic Defence may not file a

23     response.

24             Let me seize this opportunity, since Mr. Kovacic is present, to

25     submit the following to him:  You sent us, and I would like to thank you

Page 38797

 1     for this, a schedule for the month of May, in which Mr. Slobodan Praljak

 2     is scheduled to testify as of the 6th of May onwards.  For the entire

 3     month of May, until the 25th of May, he will be testifying, but the

 4     problem we have is the following:  Below his name, you have written down

 5     the figure of 35 hours -- 36 hours.  If these are 36 hours dedicated to

 6     the examination-in-chief, then half of this time will be given to the

 7     other Defence counsel, i.e., 18 hours, in addition to the 36 hours for

 8     the Prosecution for its cross-examination, and we have to factor in 16 to

 9     20 percent of that time for the questions put by the Bench, which means

10     that if Mr. Praljak testifies for 36 hours, we will need, at the very

11     least, 96 hours.

12             Since experience has demonstrated that during one hearing we

13     actually have three hours which are purposefully used, if you divide 96

14     by 3, this means that we will need to have 36 days where we will be

15     sitting.  Since we have four days a week, we will need at least eight

16     weeks.  According to this schedule, only three and a half weeks have been

17     planned.

18             Am I right in saying, Mr. Kovacic, that General Praljak will be

19     testifying for 36 hours?  That is the prize question.

20             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour, that is true.

21     We have envisaged a total of 36 hours for General Praljak's evidence.  We

22     did make a mistake, when putting together the schedule, for the grand

23     total including the cross.  I think you took that calculation into

24     account.  We shall correct that mistake.  It's a technical error that

25     occurred because of some changes that were introduced.  Eventually, we

Page 38798

 1     realised that the final copy comprised two different documents.  Of

 2     course, we do not intend to challenge the fact that the cross will take

 3     one and a half times the time allotted for the chief.

 4             At any rate and despite the fact that this is a simple error that

 5     we discovered, we did not go so far as to base our calculation on

 6     anything other than what the statistic so far has shown.  The Chamber may

 7     have more questions, and that will affect the scheduling, but I don't

 8     think we need to make special allowances for that.  If the chief will

 9     take ten days, then the cross, the other Defence teams, and the

10     Prosecutor, will take up to 15 days, and we shall use that principle to

11     make any further calculations.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So please make the corrections.

13     Do send us a new schedule, knowing that you now have fixed parameters, 36

14     hours for you, 50 percent for the others, that's 18 hours, 36 hours for

15     the Prosecution, and factor in some 20 percent, give or take a little for

16     the Judges' questions, not to forget administrative, housekeeping matters

17     which do take a lot of time and can consume up to 25 percent of the time.

18     So having all this in mind, send us a new schedule, but at first blush it

19     looks as though we're now on a long course for several weeks.

20             Also, from memory, Mr. Kovacic, I believe that the Trial Chamber

21     gave you some 55 hours, so there will be 55 hours, minus 36.  In other

22     words, you will have 19 hours left, roughly speaking, for all your other

23     witnesses.  But I think you've used already one hour and thirty minutes

24     so far, based on my calculations, which are very reliable, as to the time

25     you have been allocated, so you don't have 55 hours; you have 53 hours

Page 38799

 1     and 30 minutes.

 2             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true, Your Honour.

 3     Thank you for this warning.  We have taken that into account.  We have

 4     checked the statistics.  We know how much time remains after the evidence

 5     of General Praljak.  We shall use that time to bring two expert

 6     witnesses, and as we are now hoping, a total of seven to eight viva voce

 7     witnesses.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Excellent.  I thought it was

 9     important to flag that up.  So we're waiting for your schedule.  Of

10     course, whenever you can, do transmit the exhibit list.  It's very

11     interesting, because as I told you already, I've been preparing for this

12     for several months already.

13             Does the Prosecution have any questions, other topics they want

14     to address?

15             MS. WEST:  May we go into private session for just a brief

16     moment.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 38800

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             I'm now turning to the Defence counsel.  No further topics to

 9     address?

10             As you know, we shall reconvene on Monday at 2.15.  Ms. Nozica,

11     you told us that you would be ready for the entire week, thank you for

12     that, in advance; is that right, Ms. Nozica?

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we have two

14     witnesses for the following week.  One will take two hours, and the other

15     an hour.  As I said, we might be ready for the second witness on Tuesday.

16     If we run out of time, we'll be wrapping up the last witness Wednesday

17     morning.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

19             I wish you all a good afternoon.  We shall reconvene on Monday at

20     2.15.

21             The hearing stands adjourned.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.35 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of April,

24                           2009, at 2.15 p.m.