Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39248

 1                           Monday, 27 April 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Prlic and Coric not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Prlic et al.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             This is Monday, April 27th, 2009, and I would like to greet our

15     accused, first and foremost, then also counsel for the Defence, Mr. Scott

16     and his assistants, and all the people helping us in this courtroom.

17             We will now start our fourth year of trial.  This is a historic

18     landmark.  It's been going on for four years now, and maybe next year at

19     the same day I'll be telling you this is now going to be our fifth year.

20             Very well.  Mr. Registrar, in the meanwhile, could you please --

21     you have the floor.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered

24     through Witness Bagaric, Ivan.  The list submitted by 2D shall be given

25     Exhibit IC990.  The list submitted by 3D shall be given Exhibit IC991.

Page 39249

 1     The list submitted by 4D shall be given Exhibit IC992, and the list

 2     submitted by the Prosecution shall be given Exhibit IC993.

 3             Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 5             Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.  I believe you had something to

 6     say.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to everyone in the

 8     courtroom.  Good afternoon to you, Your Honours.  Thank you for giving me

 9     the floor.

10             I'd just like to ask us to move into private session for a few

11     moments.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

13                           [Private session]

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Page 39250











11 Page 39250 redacted. Private session.















Page 39251

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please give us your

20     name, surname, and date of birth.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Dragan Juric, born on

22     the 10th of July, 1955.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation at the

24     moment?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm retired.

Page 39252

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

 2     before a court or is this the first time that you're testifying?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I'm in

 4     court.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read the

 6     solemn declaration.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS: DRAGAN JURIC

10                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I've asked you a

14     series of questions to know whether you had already testified in court,

15     and you told me that this was going to be the first time that you

16     testify.  It's true that when you testify in court, in front of many

17     people, it's something that you tend to remember.  It's an important

18     moment in one's life.  I know that you've had some health problems, so

19     I'd like to tell you right away that if at any moment you feel poorly,

20     just raise your hand and tell us, you know, to stop the proceedings,

21     maybe because you're under too much stress or you don't feel right.  So

22     just tell us.

23             Furthermore, let me tell you some things that your counsel

24     probably had already told you, but some things that will help things run

25     smoothly.

Page 39253

 1             You'll have to answer questions put to you by Ms. Nozica.

 2     Ms. Nozica is also going to show you a number of documents that are in a

 3     binder that will be handed to you in a minute.

 4             Once this stage of questioning is over, and it should last for

 5     two hours, the other counsels who are with her, around her, and who

 6     represent other accused, other than Mr. Stojic, will also be entitled to

 7     put questions to you, and this will be their own cross-examination.  But

 8     experience has shown that up until now, everything went very smoothly up

 9     until then.

10             The four Judges on the Bench can also intervene to ask questions

11     in order to shed some light on a number of items coming either from

12     documents that were presented to you or from your answers, and there

13     again normally things run quite smoothly.

14             Then there will be a more -- a rockier moment, if I could say so.

15     It's when the Prosecutor will be asking questions to you in his

16     cross-examination, and that's his job.  The cross-examination has two

17     goals:  We have to test your credibility to see whether you're lying or

18     not and also put questions to you regarding the substance of the issues

19     that you have addressed, and there the Prosecutor will be leading his

20     cross-examination in a way that could be perceived as difficult by you.

21     It's not really a picnic, if we could say so.  But please stay cool and

22     just answer the questions put to you.

23             We have breaks every hour and a half so you can rest.

24             You are now under oath.  You're now in the hands of justice,

25     you're the witness of justice, and you will no longer be in contact with

Page 39254

 1     Ms. Nozica.

 2             Your hearing might have to continue tomorrow, but you are not

 3     supposed to contact her either today, overnight, or tomorrow.  So in your

 4     hotel room, you know, don't talk about today's testimony.

 5             Please be very brief and very accurate in your answers.  If you

 6     don't understand the meaning of a question, just ask the person putting

 7     the question to you to reformulate it.

 8             Of course, the Trial Chamber is available if you need to ask for

 9     anything.

10             I've told you all this to make sure that this hearing will run as

11     smoothly as possible.

12             So these were my preliminary remarks, and I will now give the

13     floor to Ms. Nozica, representing Mr. Stojic.

14             Ms. Nozica.

15             MS. NOZICA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Examination by Ms. Nozica:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Juric.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   I'm going to go through your CV for the benefit of the Court and

20     you can just tell me, when I finished, whether what I've said is correct,

21     and set me right if it isn't.

22             You graduated in 1973 from the secondary school in Fojnica.  From

23     November 1973 until 1983, you worked in the Igman Factory in Konjic.

24     From 1985 until 1992, you worked in the Energo Opskerba [phoen] Factory

25     and the heating plant in that factory as the manager.  And in March 1992,

Page 39255

 1     you joined the Territorial Defence of Konjic Municipality, and you were

 2     put forward for the assistant head for operative and training courses in

 3     that Joint Staff.  At the end of September 1992, the HVO Herceg Stjepan

 4     Brigade was set up in Konjic, and you were appointed assistant head of

 5     operations and training.  On the 22nd of March, 1993, you were appointed

 6     the deputy commander of the HVO of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, and you

 7     remained in that post until the 18th of April, 1993, when, on the basis

 8     of internal agreement, part of the brigade which had moved to the

 9     Turija-Zabrdje-Zaslivlje area; yes, Zabrdje and Zaslivlje, you were

10     appointed commander of Zabrdje and Zaslivlje -- I'm waiting for the

11     transcript to get the names, Zaslivlje, Z-a-s-l-i-v-l-j-e -- and you were

12     appointed commander of that sector, and you remained in that post until

13     the 3rd of July, 1993, when you were wounded.  On the 15th of August,

14     1993, once again on the basis of an internal agreement on the part of the

15     Command of that area, you were appointed assistant commander and were

16     charged with working with civilians, and you remained in that post until

17     March 1994.  And you retired on the 30th of May, 1997.

18             Mr. Juric, is that date correct -- your CV; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Juric, could you explain to the

21     Trial Chamber, and we saw, from the introduction I made, all the posts

22     that you occupied in Konjic, all your duties, and we're interested in the

23     period from 1992 to 1993, until March 1994, in actual fact, so could you

24     tell the Trial Chamber where the town of Konjic is located?

25        A.   Your Honours, the town of Konjic is located on the main road,

Page 39256

 1     M-17 running from Sarajevo to Mostar.  It is about 57 kilometres away

 2     from Sarajevo and about 63 kilometres away from Mostar.  The Neretva

 3     River runs through the centre of town and divides the town into two

 4     parts, the left and right bank.  There are some hills around the town of

 5     Konjic, and on the right-hand side you find Mount Zlatar, and on the

 6     left-hand side you will find the village of Borici Borak with a dominant

 7     feature called Borasnica [phoen], and to the south of that is Mount

 8     Ljubljana.  To the south of Konjic, towards Mostar, you have

 9     Lake Jablanica, and on the right-hand side of the lake is a ravine, and

10     it's called Butorovic Polje, a gorge.

11        Q.   You said Butorovic Polje; right?  I'm looking at the transcript.

12     So for the transcript is Butorovic Polje, B-u-t-o-r-o-v-i-c.

13             Tell me, Mr. Juric, or rather tell the Trial Chamber what the

14     ethnic structure was in the Konjic municipality in 1991?

15        A.   According to the population census in 1991, Konjic had about

16     45.000 inhabitants, and, percentage-wise, 54 percent were Muslims, about

17     26 percent were Croats, and about 15 percent were Serbs, and 5 percent

18     others, miscellaneous.

19        Q.   And how about inhabitants did the town of Konjic proper have, if

20     you can answer that?

21        A.   Well, I can't give you an exact figure, but I would say it had

22     about 20.000.

23        Q.   The hamlets and villages and suburbs which surround Konjic, were

24     they mono-ethnic or were they of mixed ethnicities?

25        A.   Mostly mono-ethnic.  There were very few settlements with a mixed

Page 39257

 1     population, and the town of Konjic itself is surrounded by villages

 2     predominantly inhabited by Croats, Ovcari [phoen] Repovica [phoen],

 3     Donje Selo, Pokojiste, that's on the right bank, and on the left bank we

 4     have Turija, Zabrdje, Zaslivlje.

 5        Q.   Can you tell me the Trial Chamber when combat began in Konjic

 6     municipality?

 7        A.   At the end of March 1992 and the beginning of April saw the

 8     departure en masse of the Serb population from the town of Konjic, mostly

 9     in the area of Borak, which is where there were military facilities and

10     JNA communications facilities.  When the Serb population left and the

11     military-able men, the town began to be shelled, and the first shells

12     fell on the village of Turija, Zelje [phoen] and Spirene [phoen].

13        Q.   And when did the first military units -- when were the first

14     military units set up in Konjic?

15        A.   Well, precisely at that time.  So that Konjic could defend

16     itself, a Municipal Staff of the TO was set up, and the Croats and

17     Muslims joined that body because the Serbs avoided it.  The commander was

18     Sead Regapagic [phoen], he was a Muslim ethnically and his deputy was

19     Ivica Azinovic.  He was a Croat.  I was proposed to be the assistant

20     commander in that Staff for Training, and the establishment of the staff

21     was never completely set up, because with the beginning of April 1992,

22     combat action started.

23        Q.   You said that the staff was set up, and you've just explained to

24     us how that came about at the end of March.  Now, tell the Trial Chamber

25     whether any units were formed on the ground, in the field.

Page 39258

 1        A.   Yes.  In almost all the villages and hamlets, the population

 2     organised themselves and set up units.  They were manned by people living

 3     in those villages, the locals, and they would have 20 -- units of 20 or

 4     30 or 40 men, depending on the number of inhabitants, and they just had a

 5     commander.  That was it.  All the others were fighters.

 6        Q.   You said a moment ago that the villages, hamlets and settlements

 7     around Konjic were mostly of a single ethnicity.  Did the units reflect

 8     that population setup as well?

 9        A.   In the places which had single ethnicity, this was reflected on

10     the units, but there were quite a number of villages with a mixed

11     population and so the units there were mixed as well.

12        Q.   Now, tell me whether there was any military -- whether there were

13     any military operations that started after the establishment of the

14     staff.

15        A.   At the beginning of April 1992, the staff was led -- or, rather,

16     the staff led operations to free the facility of Ljuta.

17             Which is where the weapons were stored of the TO reserve force

18     for Konjic, Jablanica and Prozor, and that facility was guarded -- or,

19     rather, that's where the members of the Yugoslav People's Army were and

20     some Serb civilians standing guard.  Also during that period of time,

21     there was an operation at Zlatar, the Zlatar facility, also guarded by

22     the JNA, and that's where the communications and signals centre was.  And

23     the staff also led the operation to take the plateau of Ljubljana,

24     because that was the dominant feature, the dominant elevation from which

25     you could see the whole of the town of Konjic, and also all the access

Page 39259

 1     roads to Konjic were controlled.  And the fighting on this plateau went

 2     on for two days.  We managed to take control of the plateau, and the

 3     Serbs withdrew, and we suffered the first losses.  Three fighters were

 4     killed, two Croats and one Muslim.  It was -- Suad Alic was the Muslim

 5     person who was killed, and one of the brigades took his name after that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what was the situation like in Konjic at the

 7     time?

 8        A.   Well, in Konjic at the time, the civilian population, the Croats

 9     and Muslims were in a panic, and they began leaving the town of Konjic

10     and moving towards Jablanica, Risovac, and toward Herzegovina and further

11     afield to Croatia.

12        Q.   You said Risovac, didn't you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Very well.  All right, we will correct this later.  Tell me,

15     please, did the population later come back, mostly come back?

16        A.   They started coming back at the end of August, and then further

17     on the majority of the population returned to Konjic by the end of 1992.

18        Q.   Mr. Juric, how were these units armed, the units that were under

19     the Joint Staff?

20        A.   As far as I know, we received weaponry from Croatia and from the

21     Logistics Base in Grude.  There wasn't enough weapons, so that a large

22     number of soldiers didn't have any.

23        Q.   Mr. Juric, were there, and if so when, any disagreements between

24     the members of the staff who were Croats and Muslims?

25        A.   Yes, there were disagreements; not major ones, but there were

Page 39260

 1     some.  The first thing we noticed is that within the staff, the

 2     Joint Staff, the Muslims attempted to have a leading role in

 3     decision-making, in leadership, and in command.  The fact was that at the

 4     time, they had very few people engaged in defence, and they were much

 5     better armed than we Croats were.

 6             Further on, there were frequent changes of commanders in the

 7     staff, and that disrupted the coordination and work between us and them.

 8             Thirdly, when the facility in Ljuta was taken, where a large

 9     number of materiel and equipment were seized, the distribution of this

10     equipment wasn't properly done, the allocation wasn't well done, so that

11     our fighters received very little weapons from that cache.  And later on

12     we learned that some members of some units sold or resold that equipment

13     later on.

14        Q.   When you say, Mr. Juric, "We received much less weaponry," who do

15     you have in mind?

16        A.   Croatian soldiers.

17        Q.   What was the result of these disagreements, Mr. Juric?

18        A.   Precisely because of these disagreements, we did not have accord

19     within the staff, and there were parallel units established of the HVO

20     and the BH Army.

21        Q.   When was this taking place?

22        A.   In early June 1992.

23        Q.   Did you personally take part in the establishing of the HVO unit?

24        A.   No.  In all of the activities mentioned so far, I acted in -- I

25     was involved as a soldier.  I was active within the unit in the village

Page 39261

 1     where I lived.

 2        Q.   And who took part in these activities on behalf of the HVO?

 3        A.   On behalf of the HVO, that was Mr. Ivica Azinovic and --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the second name.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, as you were answering

 6     this question, I was wondering whether counsel was going to talk about

 7     the ethnic make-up of the municipalities.  There were no document about

 8     that.  It seems that the Konjic municipality comprised 50 percent Muslim,

 9     20 to 25 percent Croats, approximately.  When the weapons were handed

10     out, as you mentioned a few moments ago, and according to what you have

11     said, you seem to be saying that you weren't given enough weapons.  As

12     far as you remember, did the weapons distribution factor in the ethnic

13     make-up or were the weapons divided among everyone without considering

14     this particular factor?  I also forgot to mention that there were

15     15 percent Serbs, approximately.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the majority of these

17     weapons were destroyed because a lot of these facilities were burned

18     down.  However, the equipment that had been seized, as I said, it was

19     distributed proportionally to the percentage of residents, in view of the

20     ethnic make-up.  And I said that we should have received more, in view of

21     how numerous we were in that area.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In other words, this was not

23     done according to the population make-up.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I just add a question.

Page 39262

 1             Mr. Juric, who distributed MTS?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the officers of the staff

 3     which was in charge of these activities, and those were jointly Croats

 4     and Muslims.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Juric, let me just see whether a mistake was made in

 8     interpretation.  You said that the weapons were distributed

 9     proportionally to the number of residents.  Was it the number of

10     residents or number of soldiers?

11        A.   Number of soldiers, that's what I had in mind.

12        Q.   You also said that there were many more Croats who took part in

13     the staff and in the units than Muslims; is that correct?

14        A.   The facts spoke for themselves.

15        Q.   Very well.  Now, let me us go back to the establishing of the

16     HVO.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Nozica, I'm not satisfied with this answer.

18     What does it mean, "The facts spoke for themselves"?  They do not speak

19     to me, Mr. Juric, so if you could please explain more clearly.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said earlier, in the

21     villages there were self-organised units, so that the actual figures

22     could not be determined at the time with certainty.  However, analysing

23     how many there were in view of the number of residents, we believed that

24     we received much less weaponry than we were due.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And by saying "we," you mean the Croats; is that

Page 39263

 1     correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to see more clearly.  I hope I'm

 4     not doing your job less good than you would have done it, Ms. Nozica.  I

 5     would suppose that MTS was distributed to the villages; is that correct?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to the units that existed in

 7     villages, to the soldiers who were in villages.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Right.  And your impression is that the Croat

 9     villages got too little as compared to the, quote, "Muslim" villages; is

10     that how I have to understand you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a lot of soldiers who were

12     active, engaged, who did not receive any weapons.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I still do not quite understand.  The weapons

14     did not go to the individuals, or did they?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commanders of those units had

16     the weapons, and they would ask, for example, 20 rifles for their unit,

17     and they would receive only 10 and they would be told that there wasn't

18     any more available, whereas they had 20 soldiers.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And you are saying that this only happened to

20     the detriment of Croats and not to the detriments of Muslims.  If Muslims

21     said, We need 10 rifles, they got 10 rifles?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they wouldn't, they wouldn't

23     receive as many.  There were more of them who had not been engaged yet.

24     Later on, they joined units.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  I leave it at that for the moment.  Thank

Page 39264

 1     you.

 2             Excuse me, Ms. Nozica.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you have said

 4     something which seems important, all the more so that the Trial Chamber

 5     has been seized of Doljani and Sovici.  This is on line 16, page 15.  You

 6     said that units existed in the villages -- line 16, page 15.  When you

 7     say that, when you're talking about the Konjic municipality, there were

 8     151 localities or communes, perhaps each village was organised, but when

 9     you're saying that, do you mean that this happened like this everywhere,

10     in other words, that people were getting themselves organised in each

11     village, or are you saying that some villages only had organised

12     self-defence or defence units, whichever way you would like to put it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me say this again, because

15     it is important.

16             A while ago, this is on line 16, page 15 -- that has nothing to

17     do with you, this is for the lawyers, you said that the units, and so

18     we're getting ourselves organised in the units, what I would like to know

19     is this:  When you're saying that, is this a principle that applied to

20     all the villages?  Does this mean that in all the villages, all the

21     people were getting organised in fighting units, or did this only apply

22     to some of the villages?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all of the villages.  Initially,

24     this is how units were organised in all villages.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In all the villages; fine.  At

Page 39265

 1     least this is an important clarification.

 2             Now, to pick up on the question put by my colleague, you said

 3     that these villages had different ethnic make-ups, and it seems that in

 4     your municipality, in the Konjic municipality, there were 50 percent

 5     Muslims, approximately.  So in some villages, some villages were

 6     predominantly Muslim and some villages may have been predominantly

 7     Croatian.  But as far as arms distribution is concerned, were these

 8     weapons handed out, as the Defence counsel put the question to you,

 9     according to the population make-up or were the weapons handed out

10     according to the number of fighters that were present?  Because if we're

11     talking about a predominantly Muslim village, there would be only

12     Croatian fighters.  In that case, all the Croatian fighters would have

13     received weapons, even if the village was predominantly Muslim?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said this, I was referring

15     to the amount of soldiers engaged at that point in time, both on the

16     Croat side and the Muslim side.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us who the enemy

18     was?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Army of Republika Srpska.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Juric, I will go back to the questions put by

23     His Honour Trechsel, and I hope they won't take it against me, that I'm

24     going back a little bit.  I'll try and not be leading.  I will only speak

25     of the things mentioned to you.

Page 39266

 1             You said after the facilities were taken, the facility in Ljuta,

 2     it was taken back from the Serb Army.  It was taken by the Joint Staff.

 3     A large number of MTS was seized, but it wasn't distributed equally so

 4     that a large number of Croat soldiers were left without weapons.

 5             Judge Trechsel asked you several times, and I will continue along

 6     that line.  What did you believe, that the Croats received less than

 7     Muslims?  What did you think was the reason behind these disagreements?

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Ms. Nozica, here I must object.  I do

 9     not recall the witness saying that the Muslims got more than the Croats

10     and the Croats less.  I asked him -- Witness, I hope you can confirm

11     this.  I asked you whether it was different with the Muslims, and you

12     told me the Muslims also did not get as much weapons as they wanted and

13     as they needed.  Have I misunderstood you?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you misunderstood me,

15     because I gave some figures that we Croats know that based on the number

16     of our soldiers who were engaged, we thought that we should have received

17     more weapons than we did receive.  We didn't have the actual figures for

18     weapons that the Muslims received, but this was our opinion, this was our

19     official view.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what you are saying is

21     important.  When you say that the Croatian fighters realised that they

22     did not receive the weapons they should have because the enemy is the

23     Republika Srpska, what does this mean?  What did that mean?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention Republika Srpska

25     in any other context than saying that they were the enemy.  I did not

Page 39267

 1     mention Republika Srpska in the context of weapons distribution, as far

 2     as I gather.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, perhaps the questions put

 4     to you by the Bench are too complicated.  Let me take the case of, let's

 5     say, a particular village.  In this particular village, there are

 6     fighters who are both Croatian and Muslim.  Do you follow me?  Weapons or

 7     MTS are being handed out, and you realise that the Croatian soldiers

 8     don't have the number of rifles they should have.  So this is my

 9     question.  My question may be of a geopolitical nature, but why did the

10     Croatian soldiers not get the rifles they should have had?  Is there any

11     reason for this?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this:  I will speak in

13     figures, if I can concentrate enough.

14             In a village, in a Muslim village, there are 100 men fit for

15     military service.  Eighty of them are engaged.  Twenty do not want to

16     join units.  They receive weapons according to the numbers of men fit for

17     military service, not to the number of those who are engaged; whereas in

18     our village we have 20 men fit for the army, 20 of them join, and we

19     receive only 10 rifles.  So in the Muslim villages, they had people who

20     were not engaged, yet received -- yet they received weapons to cover

21     100 percent of the men in the village.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Everyone can

23     understand what you've just said.  But as far as I'm concerned, my

24     question is this:  Why did the Croatians not receive all the weapons they

25     had asked for, when all the Muslims received the weapons they had asked

Page 39268

 1     for?  This is what I'm trying to understand.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said in the beginning that

 3     within the staff, the staff that we formed, the Muslims asked to have a

 4     leading role in decision-making, command and control, precisely because

 5     the main man who was in charge, who worked there, we Croats believed that

 6     this distribution was to the detriment of us Croats, that we were -- it

 7     was to our detriment.  This is why these disagreements arose.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We understand that the

 9     distribution of weapons was not carried out fairly, but I'm trying to

10     understand why.  What was the political or military ideological reason

11     for which 20 Croatian fighters did not receive those 20 weapons and why

12     they only received 15 rifles?  Why was this done in such a way?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I, too, I can't explain it, I

14     don't know why that was the case, and that's why we disagreed, we had our

15     disagreements over that.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you wonder why,

17     also.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry if I'm assisted a little bit.  If one

19     goes back to page 16, line 15-16, I have asked you if the Muslims said

20     they need 10 rifles, do they get 10 rifles, and you say, No, they don't.

21     Now you say that if they have 100 men able to fight, they get 100 rifles.

22     This is -- I cannot help finding a certain contradiction in these two

23     testimonies.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.  I really don't

25     understand your question.

Page 39269

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Well, I will not now insist.

 2             Please continue, Ms. Nozica.

 3             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   We'll come back to that in due course.  We'll deal with the topic

 5     of arms and weapons, but we can move on.

 6             And we were establishing the establishment of the HVO units, and

 7     your last answer was to say that Mr. Ivica Azinovic and Mr. Dinko Zebic

 8     were in charge of that.  Now, Mr. Juric, when was the HVO Brigade

 9     actually established?

10        A.   At the end of September 1992.

11        Q.   And who was appointed commander of the brigade?

12        A.   Zdravko Saban.

13        Q.   I think you said "Zdravko Sagolj"; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who appointed him?

16        A.   President Mate Boban did.

17        Q.   Were you appointed to some post in the brigade on that occasion?

18        A.   Yes, I was, the assistant chief for operative affairs and

19     training.

20        Q.   And who appointed you and at whose proposal?

21        A.   The commander of the brigade appointed me, and the proposal came

22     from the council of the coordination and my chief of staff.

23        Q.   And what about the other assistants; were they appointed at that

24     time?  Or, rather, the other men who made up the Brigade Command.

25        A.   Yes.  They were appointed before me, before I was appointed to my

Page 39270

 1     post.

 2        Q.   And who appointed them?

 3        A.   They were appointed by the brigade commander, this inner circle.

 4     He made the proposals for their appointment.

 5        Q.   I see.  Now, did you ever get a document stating that you were

 6     appointed to that post by -- from the Defence Department, for example?

 7        A.   No, we didn't receive any documents, personally, but there was a

 8     list of the members of the brigade and that was compiled at the end of

 9     1992.

10        Q.   And on the basis of that document, were the lower, subordinate

11     commanders appointed, those people who already performed those duties?

12        A.   Yes, that's right.

13        Q.   Do you know who sent in the proposal for the appointment of these

14     individuals to the Defence Department in Mostar?

15        A.   The brigade commander, through his assistant for cadres and

16     establishment affairs.

17        Q.   And how long did you perform your duties at that post in the

18     brigade?

19        A.   Until the 3rd of March, 1993.

20        Q.   And what happened then?

21        A.   Then the commander of the brigade replaced his deputy and put my

22     name forward for the deputy -- as deputy commander, and at the end of

23     March, I received my appointment papers and became the deputy commander

24     of the brigade.

25        Q.   And how long were you in the brigade -- or, rather, for how long

Page 39271

 1     were you the deputy commander of the brigade, and who made the proposals

 2     to appointment men to the Brigade Command?

 3        A.   It was the Defence Department who put forward the proposals to

 4     the posts proposed, in turn, by the brigade commander.

 5        Q.   When you say the Defence Department, what do you actually mean?

 6        A.   I don't know what you're asking me.

 7        Q.   Do you mean the Defence Department or the Defence -- you said

 8     "Defence office," but do you mean Defence Department?

 9        A.   Yes, Defence Department.

10        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Juric, we've just seen, to summarise, that at the

11     end of September 1992, the brigade of the HVO was established, and its

12     name -- or tell us the name of the brigade.

13        A.   The brigade was called the Herceg Stjepan Brigade.

14        Q.   I see.  Now, when were the units of the BH Army established?

15     Let's take a look at that.

16        A.   Well, when there was a division in the TO - that was in

17     June - that's when the BiH Army units began to be formed in Konjic.

18        Q.   And which units, in particular, was set up?  What was its name?

19        A.   The Suad Alic Brigade was established in Konjic, and the

20     Neretvica Brigade in Klis; and to the best of my knowledge the Suad Alic

21     Brigade was established far before our Herceg Stjepan Brigade, the HVO

22     brigade, was established.

23        Q.   And what was the relationship between the command of the units of

24     the HVO brigade, the Herceg Stjepan Brigade, and the BH Army brigade

25     which was called the Suad Alic Brigade?  And we're looking at the period

Page 39272

 1     from September 1992.  What was the relationship between the two brigades

 2     and their commands?

 3        A.   Do you mean in Konjic?  Well, in Konjic, we had very good

 4     cooperation with members of the Suad Alic Brigade and the TO Staff.  We

 5     visited the front-lines, talked to the fighters, and cooperation was

 6     generally at a very high level.

 7        Q.   And at that time, and I'm referring to the HVO Herceg Stjepan

 8     Brigade now, did you establish a training centre of any kind?

 9        A.   Yes, we did, precisely in agreement with the TO Staff, in the

10     region of Bradina, where there was a meteorological station.  We

11     refurbished it and turned it into a training centre, where we were able

12     to train about 35 soldiers.

13        Q.   Tell me, please, did you hold joint meetings, that is to say,

14     between the HVO Command and the BH Army Command?

15        A.   Yes.  Those meetings were held regularly, every fortnight, and if

16     the needing arose, then more frequently.  They would discussion the

17     situation on the ground.  We would tour the lines and look at the defence

18     lines.

19        Q.   And what was the defence line like facing the enemy?  And let's

20     remind the Trial Chamber who your enemy was at that time.  Who was the

21     enemy?

22        A.   Our enemy was the Army of Republika Srpska, and the front-line

23     facing the enemy was established on the basis of an agreement between the

24     BH Army and the HVO, and the front-lines were manned jointly by fighters

25     from both camps, except in Turija and Prevlje where, for instance, the

Page 39273

 1     Croats held the Turija sector and the other sector was held by the

 2     Muslims.  But otherwise in all the other sections of the front, if the

 3     commander was a Muslim, the Croat would be his deputy, or vice versa, at

 4     the individual positions up at the front-line.

 5        Q.   And for how long did this go on, Mr. Juric?

 6        A.   All this went on until mid-March 1993.

 7        Q.   Tell me, please, you say until mid-March 1993.  Now, what I want

 8     to know is this:  During that period, that is to say, from the end of

 9     1992 until March 1993, were tensions raised, were they running high?  Was

10     there dissatisfaction over someone's conduct in Konjic and the

11     surrounding parts, perhaps?

12        A.   Well, yes.  Although we cooperated very well in Konjic, what

13     happened was that members of units from outside arrived in Konjic and

14     tensions flared, and there was unrest among the citizens and the fighters

15     in the town of Konjic.  And these people who came in were members of the

16     special units, special-purpose units, the Handzar Division, Zuka's units

17     and the like, and they came into town.  They wore special uniforms, they

18     had scarves on their heads with some letters that we couldn't read and

19     didn't know what they were.  They must have been Arabic.  And they made a

20     show of force, of might, going through town, and this affected the

21     population, and the soldiers didn't like seeing these people move around

22     town either.  So that raised tensions.

23             And also at the end of 1992, in the area of responsibility of the

24     3rd Battalion in Jablanica, a brigade was established.  It was called the

25     Neretva Jablanica Brigade, and it was manned by people from Eastern

Page 39274

 1     Herzegovina, from Foca, Prozor, and places like that, Gacko, Nevesinje,

 2     and from Prozor in part, and we were informed by the Municipal Staff of

 3     the BH Army that that brigade was being established and that the brigade

 4     would be intended to launch attacks against the Republika Srpska.

 5     However, when that brigade was established, the members of the brigade

 6     set up check-points at Aleksin Han, facing Mostar, and in Doljani, which

 7     is also the Risovac axis, and the road towards Herzegovina, that general

 8     route; and we considered that those check-points were not justified

 9     because at no point in time was that area under jeopardy by our common

10     enemy, that is to say, the Army of Republika Srpska, so that the

11     establishment of these check-points were a sore point as far as we were

12     concerned.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me go back a

14     minute.

15             Earlier, you said that when the commander was a Croat, his deputy

16     would be a Muslim, and when the commander was a Muslim, the deputy would

17     be a Croat.  When I heard you say this, I wondered whether the brigade,

18     headed by Sogolj was at one point -- whether in this brigade at one point

19     in time there was a Muslim deputy.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I meant the positions, just at

21     the positions up at the front-line, the defence line that we held facing

22     the Army of Republika Srpska.  It was at those positions that the

23     commanders in individual sectors were a member of the BH Army and the

24     deputy would be from the HVO.  That's what I meant.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What you're saying is much more

Page 39275

 1     complicated, then.  There will be some militaries who will come and

 2     testify, notably General Praljak, and I'm sure we'll come back to this

 3     with him; but you're saying something that leads me to asking you a very

 4     specific question.  If I understand you well, there is a defence line in

 5     front of the Serbians of the Serbs.  And on this defence line, if I

 6     understood you well, we have HVO and the ABiH, and both are under joint

 7     command.  And there, when the commander is a Croat, the deputy is a

 8     Muslim, but if the commander is a Muslim, his deputy will be a Croat; is

 9     that what you said?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but specifically I meant just

11     that position, the defence lines facing the Army of Republika Srpska,

12     just there.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's a shame that we don't have

14     a chart here, you know, like there was at the Nuremberg trial, because

15     this would really help us make some sketches, because if I had a chart,

16     you know, I could draw the defence line, I could position the HVO with

17     the ABiH, and I could also write where the Croat -- Croatian commander is

18     with his Muslim deputy.  But then in the rear we have the HVO brigade and

19     the ABiH brigade.  Now, regarding these two brigades, there's no mix of

20     ethnicity in the Command.  The brigade is all -- one brigade is all

21     Croat, the other brigade is all Muslim, as far as you know; is that it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  At least it's very

24     clear in my mind.

25             Madam Nozica.

Page 39276

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, did you say "yes," did you answer in the affirmative?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   Now, let's clarify, sir, some points.  When you said that there

 5     was raised tension with the arrival of certain divisions, the Handzar

 6     Division, Motorised Division, and the others, were they BH Army units?

 7     Let's clear that up first.

 8        A.   As far as I know, yes, they were.

 9        Q.   Now, you spoke about the unrest and what caused it, the

10     check-point at Bradina you mentioned.  We'll come back to that, but what

11     I want to ask you now is whether the conflicts between the BiH and the

12     HVO at the end of October in Prozor in 1992 had any influence on your

13     relationship with the Suad Alic Brigade.

14        A.   No, not specifically.  We still had very good cooperation, and

15     the commanders -- or, rather, the TO commander and the Suad Alic

16     commander and the Herceg Stjepan commander held a meeting and discussed

17     the situation in Prozor and insisted that all the orders were issued down

18     to the lowest level and that the situation in Konjic must be kept under

19     control without a conflict breaking out.

20        Q.   What happened next at the end of 1992 and beginning of 1993,

21     because you have described the situation to us when the check-point was

22     established; were there any other events that took place, anything else

23     that happened that would be characteristic of the relations between the

24     HVO brigade and the BH Army brigade?

25        A.   Well, at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, in Konjic,

Page 39277

 1     the president of the War Presidency of the Konjic municipality and the

 2     Prozor and Jablanica municipality, we have Mr. Safet Cibo, and he

 3     replaced Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, who performed that function until

 4     then, and that was a man who worked a great deal to bring Croats and

 5     Muslims closer together in Konjic municipality.

 6        Q.   Speaking of the arrival of these units who had come in from

 7     elsewhere, did you have information and did you consider where they had

 8     come from, why they were coming from elsewhere, and what was the purpose

 9     of the arrival of these units from elsewhere, the units of the Army of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11        A.   Well, we held meetings and we discussed it, even with the members

12     of the Suad Alic Brigade, and we simply concluded that the arrival of the

13     members of these units in Konjic, that it wasn't bringing anything good,

14     it wasn't improving the situation, that somebody tried to disrupt the

15     good environment in Konjic, somebody from the outside.  And in our

16     opinion, this influence -- these winds were blowing in from Sarajevo,

17     because these positions and these units had been stationed towards

18     Sarajevo.

19        Q.   What was the ethnic make-up in Konjic, or was it different after

20     these events from mid-1992 until early 1993?  Was there a change in the

21     ethnic composition there?

22        A.   Yes.  Until the end of August 1992, some 30.000 [as interpreted]

23     refugees flowed into Konjic, mostly Muslims.  Perhaps there were some 200

24     Croats among them.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, it was 13.000

Page 39278

 1     refugees.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And among them, there were many who

 3     were fit for the military, who joined the units of the BH Army, so that

 4     the ratio - I'm now speaking in terms of figures - between the BH Army

 5     units and the HVO, the ratio in Konjic was 5:1 in favour of the BH Army.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Very well.  How was the HVO brigade, Herceg Stjepan, organised in

 8     Konjic?  In general terms, how was it organised?

 9        A.   The HVO Brigade in Konjic had about 1300 soldiers.  It had three

10     battalions.  The first one was in Klis, which numbered some 400 people.

11     Its Command was stationed in the village of Kostajnica.  Earlier on, I

12     said that Kostajnica and Klis were some 20 kilometres away from Konjic.

13     The 2nd Battalion, which gravitated towards the town of Konjic itself,

14     had some 500 soldiers, and the Command of that battalion was stationed in

15     the premises of Metalpromet Company.  The 3rd Battalion stationed in

16     Jablanica was the smallest one, had the fewest soldiers, and had up to

17     150 soldiers.  The Command of that battalion was located in the entrance

18     in Jablanica.  There was another battalion, which was an artillery unit

19     numbered some 200 people, and they were stationed in the premises of the

20     Rudar Company.  That's where their command was headquartered.

21        Q.   Mr. Juric, how was the BH Army organised in that territory?

22        A.   In late 1992, early 1993, according to my information, the

23     BH Army had three brigades in Konjic -- or, rather, in that territory.

24     They had Suad Alic Brigade in Konjic, which in my view had some 3500

25     soldiers, and then they had the Neretvica Brigade stationed in Klis,

Page 39279

 1     which had about 1500 soldiers.  They also had the Neretva Brigade in

 2     Jablanica, which was established in late 1992.  As for their numbers, I'm

 3     not sure.  I think they had up to 1.000 soldiers.  Then in the town of

 4     Konjic, they had artillery/engineering unit and communications/signals

 5     unit numbering about 400 soldiers.  The Command of the brigade and the

 6     Municipal TO Staff moved around for a while.  They were stationed in an

 7     elementary school called the 3rd of March, and then they moved to a hotel

 8     in Konjic.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have an ancillary

10     question which has to do with the question just put to you by Ms. Nozica.

11             Earlier, you told us that around the month of August 1992, 13.000

12     Muslim refugees came alongside with 200 Croatian refugees.  If my memory

13     serves me right, I believe that Konjic has 13.000 inhabitants and the

14     municipality has 151 towns.  So, you see, I know this case inside-out,

15     but I know altogether there were about 40.000 inhabitants altogether.  So

16     when 13.000 refugees come into this place, where do they find housing?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were housed in neighbouring

18     villages that had been deserted by Serbs and also in apartments

19     throughout Konjic.  Those were mostly civilians who had been expelled

20     from the territories taken by the Army of Republika Srpska.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you said that

22     they were housed in apartments that were in Konjic, but were they empty

23     or were they -- were there people living in these apartments?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were a lot that were vacant,

25     abandoned.

Page 39280

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So they were

 2     accommodated in empty flats that had been deserted, but who had deserted

 3     these flats in the first place?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, in late 1992 the

 5     Serbs left the town of Konjic, so the people who were arriving from

 6     elsewhere had -- were to be housed.  For a while, they were put up in

 7     schools until they found houses to put them up in.  They would not enter

 8     those houses and apartments immediately, no.  As the houses and

 9     apartments became vacant, they were used to house refugees.  Sometimes

10     there were many more people than could be housed, and they needed to find

11     accommodation for them.  They couldn't let them live in open air.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The refugees would

13     first be accommodated in schools that were used as collection centres,

14     and then I assume the municipality would tell them, This family can go to

15     such and such flat.  Is that how things occurred?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't responsible, I

17     wasn't in charge of that.  There were services that dealt with civilians

18     and finding housing for them.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not talking about you.  I'm

20     talking about the people who were organising the accommodation for the

21     refugees.  So first they were sent to collection centres in school and

22     then they would be sent to flats.  So the conclusion -- could we draw the

23     conclusion that it is the Konjic Municipality that would distribute the

24     refugees in the vacant apartments?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were offices within the

Page 39281

 1     Konjic Municipality that were in charge of refugees who had so find

 2     housing, some sort of housing for them.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Juric, you spoke about how the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

 6     organised in that area.  Would you tell me, please, under whose command

 7     the BH Army brigades were, according to your knowledge?

 8        A.   According to what I know, under the command of the 4th Corps.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, let us take a look at the documents that are

10     next to you.  There is a binder of documents next to you placed there by

11     the usher.  Would you please look at it, and look at the first document

12     in there.  These documents pertain to what we were dealing with.  The

13     first one is 2D764.  But before we turn to that document, there's

14     something I've forgotten.

15             On page 31, in line 2, it is recorded that you said that the HVO

16     brigade in Konjic had -- and then the number of soldiers is missing.  How

17     many soldiers did it have?  Could you please repeat?

18        A.   1.300.

19        Q.   Very well.  Have you found the document 2D764?  That should be

20     the first document there.  Tell me when you find it, Mr. Juric, please.

21             Now, could I ask the usher to assist the witness to find the

22     first document.

23        A.   I've found it.

24        Q.   Very well.  This is what Judge Antonetti asked you about.  This

25     is a certificate of the Municipal Secretariat for Displaced Persons,

Page 39282

 1     Labour and Welfare, dated the 17th of July, 1996, where they certified --

 2     the secretariat certifies that between May and August 1992, in the

 3     territory of Konjic municipality, a great number of displaced persons and

 4     refugees, non-Serbs, arrived from the neighbouring villages in Konjic

 5     municipality, Eastern Herzegovina and Eastern Bosnia.  It says here that

 6     about 13.000 of them arrived and that their arrival, as

 7     His Honour Antonetti said, basically doubled the number of residents of

 8     Konjic.  Is this in compliance with what you know?  Is this consistent

 9     with what you knew, Mr. Juric, about the arrival of refugees into Konjic?

10        A.   Yes, that's precisely what I spoke of.

11        Q.   Very well.  Would you now please look at the following document,

12     2D9 --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one little legal item.

14     You're not a legal expert, but I'm sure the counsels have noted this.

15             This certificate was issued in 1996.  I believe that it must have

16     been asked after the fact, but it seems that Edina Residovic, who is

17     asking the administration for this document, but it seems to be based on

18     a law of the former Republic of Yugoslavia, dating 1986, which seemingly

19     allowed for the refugees to be taken out.  Did you know this or not?

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I assist?

21             This is the law, the one mentioned in the preamble.  This is the

22     law based on which municipal organs are duty-bound to issue certain

23     certificates.  This does not pertain to refugees.  It is in general.  It

24     is the Law on Administrative Procedure, and this is where the law is

25     being invoked to confirm that they are duty-bound to issue such

Page 39283

 1     certificates and provide such information.  I apologise for intervening,

 2     but I think I know this better than the witness.  But we can still ask

 3     the gentleman who issued the certificate, whether he knows the person.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know the person.  We used to

 5     live together in the town of Konjic.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   All right.  Can we then move to the following document, 2D954.

 8     It should be the following document in your binder.

 9             You spoke about how the Joint Staff was armed, and here we have a

10     letter, a request by the Konjic Municipal Assembly, 12th of April, 1991,

11     forwarded to the Republic of Croatia, the Main Staff of the Croatian

12     Army.  It says there:

13             "Dear sirs.  We are writing about the issuance of certain MTS and

14     also military kitchens," which is also part of the MTS.  This is signed

15     by the Crisis Staff of Konjic, Prozor, Jablanica, Professor Rusmir

16     Hadzihuseinovic.  Do you know this gentleman?  You have mentioned him

17     earlier.

18        A.   Yes, and I wanted to say a number of very positive things about

19     him.  This is perhaps the person who did his utmost to improve the

20     relations between Muslims and Croats in Konjic to ensure that they were

21     good.

22        Q.   This gentleman's name will be appearing.  Let us clarify his

23     name.

24        A.   Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.

25        Q.   Yes, Hadzihuseinovic.  We have "Hadzihasanovic" here, but we

Page 39284

 1     shall clarify this later.  Now, with respect to this document, are you

 2     aware that this Joint Staff received weapons from the Republic of Croatia

 3     in April of 1992, weapons and other kinds of MTS?

 4        A.   I wasn't familiar with this specifically, but I was informed that

 5     the weapons had arrived, although I wasn't a direct participant in these

 6     events.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Can we please look at document 2D957.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I was looking at the

 9     document.  First, there's a mistake in the English version.  It's not

10     April 12, 1991, but April 12, 1992.  Mr. Scott agrees.  It seems that

11     there was a mistake.  It is April 12, 1992.

12             Now, Witness, the president of the municipality, called

13     Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic is a Muslim; could you say that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So could you explain the

16     following:  Why is it that the Konjic municipality, which is supposed to

17     belong to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is directly calling on to

18     the Republic of Croatia to ask for weapons in order to defend itself

19     against the Serbs?  Why aren't they sending this letter to the Government

20     of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  In this letter, we see that they

21     are directly calling on the Republic of Croatia.  I would like to know

22     the reason behind this.  Could you shed some light on this, maybe?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not able to

24     clarify that for you, because the person doing this here was the

25     president of the War Presidency in Konjic municipality.  His name was

Page 39285

 1     Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.  Now, why he turned to Croatia and not to

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina, I'm not in a position to explain that, nor can I.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to ask a question with regard to

 5     the previous document, the one 2D00764.  It is this certificate speaking

 6     about 13.000 refugees, and the comment is, I quote, "literally doubled

 7     the number of citizens in the town of Konjic."

 8             Now, at the beginning of your testimony today, you have told us

 9     that the town of Konjic had 20.000 inhabitants, approximately, and 13.000

10     is about two-thirds, so there is a considerable difference.  Can you

11     explain this?  Was your estimate wrong, was it rather 13.000 than 20.000,

12     or was there a difference in the population, for instance, because 7.000

13     Serbs had left?  How are we to understand this apparent discrepancy?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In what I said previously, I didn't

15     say there were 20.000 inhabitants in the town of Konjic.  I said I didn't

16     know the exact number, but there were -- that there were up to 20.000,

17     perhaps.  There might have been 18.000.  I didn't give you an exact

18     figure.  I said I didn't know the exact figure.  Now, the number of Serbs

19     who left during this period, once again, I don't know how many of them

20     exactly left Konjic, the exact figure.  I can give you the percentages.

21     There were about -- or, rather, there were about 6.000 Serbs in Konjic,

22     if from 45.000 you subtract the 15 percent, but there were many Croats

23     and Muslims who left Konjic during the shelling.  And the refugees came

24     in from those areas and remained in Konjic, because many of them, many of

25     the refugees, were in Herzegovina and in Croatia.  So I don't know what

Page 39286

 1     the figures were when this report was written.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You have, in fact, said:  "I would say it had

 3     about 20.000."  This is lines 18-19 on page 9, but thank you for

 4     answering.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe it's time for the

 6     break.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'd just like to add

 8     something, an important thing, before the break.

 9             My question about the number of inhabitants was before the war,

10     and he said 20.000 in answer to that question.  So when the war started,

11     the figure changed along the lines of the explanation provided by the

12     witness a moment ago.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is all noted on the

14     transcript.

15             We will now have a 20-minute break so we can have some rest.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

19             Ms. Nozica.

20             MS. NOZICA:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Juric, would you look at the next document, and we're still

22     on the topic of joint arming, and it is 2D957.  Have you found it?

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   Here we have Konjic Municipality, the Municipal Staff, the

25     Municipal Headquarters of Territorial Defence and the HVO, the 5th of

Page 39287

 1     June, 1992, the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia, Croatian

 2     Army Headquarters Zagreb, request made by TO commander Ramic, Esad

 3     [phoen], and the commander of the HVO, Zebic, Dinko, for certain MTS to

 4     be sent.  Now, Mr. Juric, are you familiar with this, and we're dealing

 5     with June 1992, that at that point in time, on the territory, the

 6     Municipal Staff of the TO and the HVO was being armed from Croatia in

 7     this way?

 8        A.   Yes, I am aware about that, I know about that.

 9        Q.   Let's now look at document 2D765, which is the next document.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Ms. Nozica.  We have here "letter

11     requested" something, and you say -- you ask the witness does he know

12     whether they got it.  But the letter does not say that this was

13     delivered, as far as I can see.  It's a demand, is it not?  This is a

14     request, or have I got it wrong?

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness

16     whether he knows if the weapons were obtained in this way, and the

17     witness said that he did know.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  The document does not say that they were sent,

19     actually, but okay.  Go on, go on.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's why I'm asking

21     the witness.  That's precisely why I'm asking the witness.

22        Q.   Have you seen the next document, 2D765?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And once again we have the War Presidency.  The date is the 3rd

25     of June, 1992, Konjic municipality.  It is an order, ordering the

Page 39288

 1     Main Staff of the defence of Konjic municipality is obliged to ensure the

 2     consumption of crude oil and oil derivatives for all members of the

 3     defence forces of Konjic municipality.  And this is signed by the

 4     president of the Presidency, Mr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.  We've already

 5     mentioned the gentleman.  He was the president of the Presidency at the

 6     time, and my question to you is this:  Do you know that the TO and the

 7     HVO gained their supplies of crude oil and oil derivatives in this way?

 8        A.   Yes.  There was a petrol pump where they would tank up both for

 9     the HVO and BH Army.

10        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look at document 2D809 now, please, which

11     is the next document in order, the next one.  And this is an agreement

12     from a meeting held on the 8th of January, 1993, held in Mostar, in the

13     Defence Department building, and present at the meeting, as we can see,

14     were Mr. Bruno Stojic, and can you now tell the Trial Chamber which of

15     the people on this list you know or you knew at that time, which of the

16     others?

17        A.   Number 2, I knew number 2, number 3, number 6, and number 7.

18        Q.   And here we have the functions of those individuals, so we don't

19     need to dwell on that.  It says in the agreement, Mr. Juric, that trucks

20     with license plate TZ.  What is TZ?  What does TZ stand for?

21        A.   Tuzla.

22        Q.   All right.  That they were loaded up with brass tracks and bars,

23     intended for the production of ammunition in the Konjic factory of Igman.

24     Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber what the Igman factory in Konjic

25     produced before the war and up until the 18th of January 1993, what did

Page 39289

 1     the factory produce?

 2        A.   In the former Yugoslavia, it was one of the largest ammunitions

 3     factory, producing all calibre 7.65 and all the other calibres, 7.67 and

 4     so on, so it was one of the three largest ammunitions factories.

 5        Q.   Now, this agreement was concluded on the 8th of January, 1993,

 6     and in point 3 of this agreement it says that of the amount of material

 7     on the trucks, the HVO Konjic would receive part of the ammunition for

 8     their needs.  Now, my question to you is this:  Before this period,

 9     January of 1993, did you receive any ammunition from this factory at all?

10        A.   As far as I remember and as far as I knew, I don't think we ever

11     received any ammunition from this factory.

12        Q.   Now take a look at the next document, which is 2D265.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before we move on to

14     the next document, I would like to stay with this document.  You told us

15     that you knew number 3, number 7 and number 2, you didn't mention

16     number 4.  I can read this.  This person is called Safet Orucevic, and he

17     is seemingly the logistics coordinator for President Izetbegovic, which

18     means that on the 8th of January, 1993, Mr. Stojic attends a meeting

19     where a representative of Mr. Izetbegovic is also present, and everyone

20     agrees on the question of ammunition and weapons.  As far as you know,

21     did you know that Mr. Izetbegovic, via one of his close associates, was

22     directly concerned by this kind of agreement?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You didn't know about it.  Was

25     this something which you happened to learn?  Did you know that this

Page 39290

 1     meeting took place or was it something you discovered afterwards?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later.  Under number 2, the

 3     president of the HVO, Ivica Azinovic, he informed us that a meeting had

 4     been held and that we would receive a certain amount of ammunition from

 5     the factory, but we never received it.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Now we can

 8     move on to 2D265, the next document.

 9        Q.   Have you found it?  The document is an exhibit, and it's also a

10     document from the BH Army, the Command of the 4th Corps.  And it says

11     here:

12             "In talking to the director of the firm Igman Konjic, I learned

13     that all the daily production of ammunition is delivered immediately

14     pursuant to instructions or based on orders received from Visoko (Lemes)

15     so there is no production stock.  During the period from the 1st of

16     January, 1993, to the 12th of February, 1993, they manufactured ..."

17             And then a list of what was manufactured.  And we see that these

18     amounts were distributed to the 4th Corps, and I'd like to draw your

19     attention to the last paragraph and point 2 of page 2, where it says:

20             "By making checks with Dzevad Huseinovic."

21             And, Mr. Juric, could you tell us once again who this gentleman

22     is, Mr. Dzevad?  He was at the last meeting.  What post did he hold?

23        A.   He was director of the Igman Konjic factory.

24        Q.   Thank you.  He says:

25             "I have established that he has a letter from the government of

Page 39291

 1     the RBiH of the 30th of January, 1993, without a registration stamp and

 2     signature, in which it says -- or which orders the distribution of the

 3     materiel produced delivered in a ratio 50:50, 50 percent ratio,

 4     50 percent to the BH Army and 50 percent to the HVO."

 5             This is signed by the assistant for logistics of the 4th Corps,

 6     Mr. Mirsad M.  We needn't go into that now, whether you knew the man or

 7     not, but let's look at the last paragraph.  And it says, from looking at

 8     the quantity of ammunition delivered from the 1st of January to the 12th

 9     of February, we can see that the order was not acted upon.  And this

10     relates both to the previous period, on the basis of what Dzevad said,

11     and I'm going to ask you once again whether at any point in time, both

12     during this particular period from the 1st of January to the 12th of

13     February and -- whether you received any type of ammunition from this

14     factory whatsoever.

15        A.   No, and in the previous document I stressed this, and this

16     document says that Mr. Dzevad claims that the HVO was not supplied with

17     anything, that no MTS was delivered.

18        Q.   Very well.  Now look at 767, please, the next document, and we're

19     going to look at the relationship between the HVO brigade and the

20     problems that occurred between you and the Suad Alic Brigade.  So let's

21     look at the document together.  It is 2D767.  Have you found it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   This document was signed by the commander of the HVO in Konjic

24     municipality, Mr. Dinko Zebic, on the 8th of October, 1992.  It's

25     entitled "Response to Materiel by Main Staff of the Armed Forces of

Page 39292

 1     Sarajevo," July 20th, 1992.  It is hereby delivered to the Armed Forces

 2     of the Main Staff of Sarajevo and to the municipality staff of the BH

 3     Army in Konjic, and it says here, in relation to the order which was

 4     based on the report of your coordinator and which pertains to the

 5     jurisdiction of facilities D-0, D-1, D-3 and D-4:

 6             "I have to respond to you by way of responding several facts:

 7     Number 1, it is clear that your coordinator does not recognise the HVO as

 8     the armed element of the Croatian nation, and, secondly, that he is not

 9     familiar enough with our municipality, and based on that he informed you

10     wrongly, as a result of which you issued the said orders."

11             Can you tell us, what are these facilities, D- 0, D-1, D-3 and

12     D-4, and what is this about the Main Staff of Armed Forces of Sarajevo

13     receiving some wrong information from somebody?

14        A.   Your Honours, the D-0 facility was the facility in Ljuta, where

15     MTS and weaponry were warehoused.  D-1 facility was the communications

16     centre in Zlatar.  The D-3 facility was the facility under the control of

17     the Serbian Army and the JNA in the Borak area, and facility D-4 was in

18     that same area.  It was a communications centre also under the control of

19     the JNA.  Based on that, I can conclude that the coordinator, who

20     informed wrongly about these facilities, the Main Staff of the

21     Armed Forces in Sarajevo, about who, what, and where had these facilities

22     under control, we, the Croats, the HVO, had facility D-1 under its

23     control, where the communications centre was housed.  D-0 facility was

24     under the control of the BH Army, under the Suad Alic Brigade.

25        Q.   Mr. Juric, this period of time, August of 1992, were there

Page 39293

 1     already certain disagreements emerging, and did this inaccurate

 2     information contribute to disagreements?

 3        A.   The document speaks by itself.  Throughout the time, we had good

 4     cooperation between the members of the Suad Alic Brigade.  However, this

 5     coordinator mis-informed the Main Staff in Sarajevo so that they would

 6     get a wrong picture about us causing the conflict.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Now, let us please look at 2D00798.  I asked you,

 8     Mr. Juric, whether there were disagreements or some serious problems in

 9     Konjic municipality after the conflict of the BH Army and the HVO in

10     Prozor.  This document is signed by the staff commander of the BH Army in

11     Konjic, as well as the commander of HVO in Konjic, and it is dated the

12     23rd of October, 1992.  This is a press release.  Since it is quite

13     important and you have already spoken about it, I will try to highlight

14     and read out the most important parts:

15             "The newly-created situation in Prozor municipality, where an

16     armed conflict erupted between part of the units of the Army of BH and

17     HVO caused a great deal of anxiety among the residents of Konjic

18     municipality.  Fully aware of the gravity of the situation and real

19     possibility that this should escalate and spread into the territory of

20     our municipality, commanders of the HVO in Konjic and of the BH Army

21     staff in Konjic met on the 23rd of October, 1992, and agreed on several

22     key issues, which would help to avoid all undesirable consequences and

23     create conditions for further successful and efficient cooperation and

24     activity against the common enemy."

25             And then in the following paragraph, it says that:

Page 39294

 1             "It has been agreed that contact should be established with the

 2     commander of warring sides in Prozor municipality and that there should

 3     be a cease-fire in force immediately, that a joint commission should be

 4     set up to investigate the causes for the conflict."

 5             And then it says that:

 6             "It has also been agreed that in the area where disagreements

 7     erupted, there shouldn't be any movement of units.  At the same time, all

 8     measures need to be taken in the units of the HVO and the BH Army in

 9     order to avoid any clashes."

10             Then it says that based on that:

11             "Orders need to be issued to commanders of basic units, as well

12     as the staff of the BH Army and Herceg Stjepan Brigade."

13             And then in the last paragraph, it says the commander of the

14     BH Army Staff in Konjic and the commander of the Herceg Stjepan Brigade

15     also agree that they need to meet more often and that these meetings

16     should serve to establish joint check-points at the exit points from town

17     and also border areas of the municipality and that also a solution needs

18     to be found for manning a defence positions with joint forces, and that

19     to this aim, any information of significance for the action against the

20     common enemy should be exchanged, and that they would also look into the

21     possibilities of creating joint military police.

22             Mr. Juric, were you informed about this meeting?

23        A.   Yes, and I need not say anything else about the meeting because

24     everything is quite clearly explained in this press release.

25        Q.   Mr. Juric, I am especially emphasising here that there was an

Page 39295

 1     agreement between the commander of the BH Army staff and also commander

 2     of the HVO units that there shouldn't be any movement of units throughout

 3     this territory.  Why was that important, Mr. Juric, in this particular

 4     case?

 5        A.   Well, precisely because any movement of any units would have

 6     caused conflict in Konjic.

 7        Q.   Now, could you please look at 2D799.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

 9     you based on this document.  This document is dated the 23rd of October,

10     1992.  You have just reminded me that on the 23rd of October, 1992, you

11     were the chief -- head of the Stjepan Brigade; is that right?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, assistant commander for

13     operations and training.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, between Konjic and Prozor,

15     how many kilometres are there?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My estimate is about 80 to 100

17     kilometres, as the crow flies, Konjic-Prozor.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Between 80 and 100 kilometres.

19     If the HVO had launched an operation on a large scale against the

20     settlements in which Muslims lived, does this mean that automatically,

21     since you were the assistant commander for operations and training, you

22     would have been made aware of an order of this kind?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not understand

24     your question entirely.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me put my question to you

Page 39296

 1     again.

 2             Assuming that the HVO, at the level of the Command, decides to

 3     engage a military action against several municipalities, as this may have

 4     happened in Prozor, because something happened in Prozor, you, in Konjic,

 5     would you have been informed about such an order?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer.  I don't know.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can't answer.  This makes

 8     it difficult, because I put questions to you and you can't answer these.

 9     I don't know whether you understand what I'm asking you or whether, at

10     your level, you were not able to, so let me address the question from a

11     different angle.

12             This document you have before you, which is signed by the HVO and

13     the ABiH, which you were aware of, according to you does this document

14     show that at the time, at least, in Konjic that between the HVO and the

15     ABiH, there is no major conflict?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document clearly states that

17     not only there were no major, there were no conflicts whatsoever in

18     Konjic at that time.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are saying that there

20     was no conflict at all.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, you said that there were

22     approximately 85 kilometres between Prozor and Konjic, and the document

23     we have before us indicates that an agreement was signed between the

24     commander of the ABiH in Konjic and the commander of the HVO to make sure

25     that those events that occurred in Prozor could not happen again in

Page 39297

 1     Konjic.  So this is my question:  Where you were in Konjic, had you

 2     understood what had happened precisely in Prozor?  Who was behind this

 3     situation, according to you, if you knew?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in a command position.  I

 5     told you that I was assistant commander for operations and training.  So

 6     I was informed only to the extent that I needed to know at that point in

 7     time.  Perhaps my commander knew more, but I didn't.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Juric, we spoke about movements, and I pointed out the

11     previous document and why it was important to prevent any movement of

12     units.  Now, would you please look at 2D799.  This is a letter signed --

13     this is in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is signed by

14     the Main Staff of the Supreme Command of Armed Forces of the Republic of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 25th of October, and it says that the purpose

16     of this letter is to establish the extent of responsibility of

17     Zahir Hrnjica.  And then it says on the 25th of October, 1992,

18     Mr. Zahir Hrnjica failed to carry out an order of the Main Staff of the

19     Supreme Command of Armed Forces, to carry out a safe escort of a company

20     of the Municipal Defence Staff of Gornji Vakuf between Konjic and

21     Parsovic.  Mr. Zahir Hrnjica, as a commander of the 1st Klisani

22     Battalion, came to the Konjic municipality to warn that he would not

23     allow any movement of units of the BH Army in the territory of Neretvica

24     and that, if necessary, he would prevent it by way of weapons.

25             Based on this document, Mr. Juric, it is clear that Mr. Divjak,

Page 39298

 1     on behalf of the Main Staff of the Supreme Command of Armed Forces wants

 2     this case investigated and established how this came about.  Let me ask

 3     you first, did you know Mr. Zahir Hrnjica?

 4        A.   I knew him as commander, but we did not have much contact.

 5        Q.   Do you know why Mr. Zahir Hrnjica did not allow any units to pass

 6     through the territory of Konjic municipality on their way to Prozor?

 7        A.   Well, this conduct of his is precisely based on the report

 8     written earlier about not allowing any units to pass via our territory,

 9     the territory controlled by us, the HVO, and the BH Army units.

10        Q.   Can we hear once again why you had this view that no units should

11     be allowed to pass via your territory on their way to Prozor?  Why did

12     you have this firm position?

13        A.   Well, that was clear, because had we allowed any units to pass

14     through, then conflict would have most likely spread to Konjic as well.

15        Q.   Now, would you please look at 2D806.  This is a report by a group

16     or, rather, by a commission of the 4th Corps, dated the 17th of December,

17     1992.  We can see here that in the previous document, the request to

18     allow passage through Konjic municipality was signed by Mr. Divjak.  Now,

19     would you look at the second page of this document, page 2, paragraph 3.

20     It says:

21             "Commission of the 4th Corps on the 7th of December, 1992,

22     states, when speaking of Colonel Divjak, that they suspected him of being

23     involved with Zejnil in various activities in Prozor municipality and

24     creating conflict between Croats and Muslims so that there should be a

25     war in a wider area, so that Muslims would be drawn into a war with

Page 39299

 1     Croats."

 2             Now, Zejnil mentioned here, and you can see this on the basis of

 3     the document, is Zejnil Delalic.  Is this a person who lived in Konjic?

 4        A.   Occasionally, at the time, he did live in Konjic.

 5        Q.   Based on this position of the 4th Corps, can it be concluded that

 6     they were accusing Mr. Divjak and Zejnil of creating conflict in Prozor?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Juric, had the units passed through, based on the previous

 9     order of the BH Army, had they passed via Konjic, would that have caused

10     conflict in Konjic?

11        A.   Yes, in Konjic and in the wider surrounding area.

12        Q.   All right, thank you.  Could we look at 2D255, please.  This is a

13     document signed by Mr. Arif Pasalic on the 16th of January, 1993, and he

14     states, once again, on the basis of an order of the Supreme Command, to

15     ensure military control of all incoming/outgoing traffic and to set up a

16     check-point.  Now, was this check-point established and why -- if so,

17     why?

18        A.   The check-point in Bradina was controlled by the MUP of Konjic

19     municipality previously, and in the MUP of Konjic there was a mixed

20     composition, Croats and Muslims, working together.  Now, with the

21     establishment of this check-point at Bradina, what is sought for here is

22     control and insight into what our fighters were doing, the ones that had

23     been at the training centre, and this was in cooperation with the TO.

24     And they had nothing against this and said it was a good thing that

25     people should be trained in the area of weapons, explosives, and the

Page 39300

 1     like.  And looking at this and seeing who it was addressed to and sent

 2     to, I can say that what I said earlier on, that is to say, that it was

 3     the leaders of the BH Army who were seeking to affect a conflict in

 4     Konjic.

 5        Q.   Now look at 2D771 now, please, and we'll comment on it just

 6     briefly, because this is taking up too much time.  Tell me when you've

 7     found the document, please.

 8        A.   Yes, I've found it.

 9        Q.   This document was signed by Mr. Sagolj --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this document dates

11     back to January, but I'd like to go back in time because I'm more

12     interested in October 23rd, 1992, and what happened in Prozor.  I'm

13     trying to understand the questions put to you by Ms. Nozica, but so far

14     it's not really clear in my mind and I need to ask some questions to see

15     if I really understand what she's trying to demonstrate.

16             According to the few documents we have seen, who are in-house

17     documents of the BiH and the 4th Corps, it seems that -- I might be

18     wrong, but it seems that the events in Prozor could be blamed on some

19     Muslim elements which would have committed a number of things that led to

20     the conflict, whereas in other regions, like in your region, there was no

21     conflict.

22             Now, according to you, is this a credible assumption; i.e., could

23     we think that what occurred in Prozor could not be blamed on the HVO, but

24     should be blamed on elements of the ABiH who disregarded the orders and

25     committed some actions which led to what happened in Prozor?  Can you

Page 39301

 1     confirm this assumption or do you believe that it is not a correct

 2     assumption?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from these documents, the

 4     ones we've just gone through, and in the way you explained them, my

 5     conclusion is certain elements of the BH Army were included in this

 6     conflict in Prozor.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is also your conclusion?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica.

10             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when you say that you

11     don't know where these questions are leading, it puts me in a rather

12     difficult position, but we'll take it step by step and we'll see how the

13     conflict in Konjic came about.  And that's why we're taking it this way,

14     but we'll get to the crux of the matter very quickly.

15        Q.   Witness, have you found the document?  Just tell me who signed

16     it.  Who was Mr. Sagolj?  We can see that at the bottom.

17        A.   He was the commander of the Herceg Stjepan HVO Brigade.

18        Q.   Now, this report, sent to the HVO Mostar, to the Command of the

19     Operative Zone, the Operations Department, the IPD, Information and

20     Propaganda Department, once again speaks about a joint meeting, and

21     that's important, attended by all the commanders of the HVO and BiH, the

22     BH Staff in Konjic, the president of the War Presidency, the HVO

23     president, and the president of the MUP, with the aim of sizing up the

24     security situation and taking specific activities to diffuse the growing

25     tensions between the two ethnic groups.  The following conclusion was

Page 39302

 1     reached at the meeting:  A, conflicts between the Croats and Muslims, as

 2     a method, should be ruled out, and an order should be issued to the level

 3     of platoons; then, B, urgently call a meeting of representatives of the

 4     4th Corps in the Operative Zone of the HVO and to implement the decisions

 5     already reached with respect to housing in a single building.

 6             Now, Mr. Juric, were you ever informed by your commanders that a

 7     meeting of this kind took place?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Juric, at that time, and we're talking about the 21st of

10     January here, were attempts still being made by your brigade, the

11     Herceg Stjepan Brigade, and the representative of the BH Army to prevent

12     a conflict from breaking out in Konjic; is that what follows from this

13     document?

14        A.   Yes, this joint meeting shows precisely that, and these important

15     conclusions were made whereby a conflicts should be prevented at all

16     costs between the HVO and the BH Army.

17        Q.   Now, I'm emphasizing the date of this meeting, which is the 21st

18     of January.

19             Now look at 2D814, and this is an order from Mr. Sefer Halilovic,

20     the Supreme Command Staff of the armed forces, and the date is the 28th

21     of January.  He says here:

22             "We have information that in the areas of Jablanica, Konjic,

23     Pazaric and Turcin, and we'll deal with Konjic that a small part of the

24     BH Army, police and other authorities are probably in other areas too

25     have fully sided with the Greater Croatia policy and are implementing

Page 39303

 1     orders received from the Establishment of the Croatian Community of

 2     Herceg-Bosna, and this is having a direct impact upon our struggle for

 3     the unified and democratic BH ..."

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel kindly slow down when reading the

 5     document, please.  Thank you.

 6             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   We have from Tufo from Hadzic and Cerovac, Midhad, the commander

 8     of the Konjic Brigade, and he is issuing an order here to investigate, to

 9     see what the situation is like, to talk to Arif Pasalic -- Fikret

10     Alipasic [phoen].  Now, Mr. Juric, may we have your comments on this

11     document?

12        A.   If I link this document up to the previous one that we've already

13     looked at, then we can clearly see in this document that specific people

14     are referred to who were in Konjic, occupying these various posts, and

15     the people attending the meeting, where it was stated loud and clear that

16     a conflict in Konjic must not be allowed to break out.  And now this is

17     being sent -- the order, or the commander, or whatever, is sent so that

18     these people can be checked out.  So I stand by what I've already said,

19     and that is that the conflict between us Croats and the Muslims in Konjic

20     was staged precisely in the Supreme Command in Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Now look at page 2 of this document, please, which is the ERN

22     number you have here, and it says that it is sent to the commander,

23     Safet Bozic in Jablanica, and it says:

24             "Safet, you should go to Konjic and issue a serious caution to

25     Guska, Jasmin, because of his cooperation with the HVO and disclosing the

Page 39304

 1     positions of the BH Army."

 2             Now, could you tell us who the doctor was that is signed here at

 3     the bottom?  Who was referred to as the doctor?

 4        A.   That was Cibo, Safet, and I've already said at the end of 1992

 5     and the beginning of 1993, he became the president of the War Presidency.

 6     He was appointed by President Alija Izetbegovic as president of the

 7     War Presidency Konjic and Jablanica municipalities.

 8        Q.   And who did he replace?

 9        A.   He replaced the man who we had good contact with and cooperation,

10     and that was Rusmir -- Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.

11        Q.   Now let's equip over the next document, which once again

12     indicates attempts to maintain good cooperation, and let's move on to

13     P1675, the next document.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

15     understand, because this is very complicated and you might be able to

16     help us.  This document from Halilovic seems to be questioning a number

17     of people in Konjic, a number of people who are actually mentioned, but

18     he also says that some people seem to be implied --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Involved, interpreter's correction.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Involved in this notion of

21     Greater Croatia.

22             Now, this is my question:  At your level, did you ever hear about

23     Greater Croatia, did you ever hear about what some people were doing, or

24     are you discovering this for the first time today?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm learning about this just now.

Page 39305

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, the Croats from

 2     Konjic had never heard about these notions of Greater Croatia and didn't

 3     discuss this among each other, or did you discuss these notions among

 4     each other?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this kind of thing couldn't

 6     have been discussed in Konjic, because the ratio between Muslims and

 7     Croats, in terms of numbers of inhabitants, there were far fewer Croats,

 8     perhaps just a third or even less than a third, so the Croats couldn't

 9     have accomplished what you've just said, this greater Croatian state or

10     whatever you just said.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Counsel, please.

13             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Juric, I'm just going to ask you something.  I'm going to ask

15     a follow-up question to what Judge Antonetti just asked you.  For

16     example, in April 1994, did you fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina?  I meant to

17     say "April 1993."  Did you fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina, together with

18     the BH Army, and did you make public statements to that effect?

19        A.   Yes, I did fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I did make public

20     statements.

21        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber where and when you made these

22     public statements or announcements?

23        A.   When I came to be the brigade commander, some 20 days after that

24     I granted an interview to a paper in Konjic, and the editorial board of

25     that paper, and I described to them my life and ended up by making a

Page 39306

 1     conclusion and stating what the object of my struggle was.  So that's it,

 2     and that was as deputy commander, actually, of the brigade when I made

 3     that statement.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] All right.  Now, I would like to

 5     tell the Trial Chamber that I do have that newspaper article.  Mr. Juric

 6     brought it with him when he arrived here, not before.  I've had it

 7     translated, so he we can place it on the ELMO, if necessary, and then we

 8     can have it interpreted to see what his positions were in April 1993.

 9     Now, I said we'd skip a document, Witness.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we're now discovering

11     that you have granted an interview.  We didn't know this, but you just

12     told us.  And you said that you were fighting for the Republic of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but this feeling that you had and that you expressed

14     in this newspaper article, was it shared by all your Croat friends within

15     the brigade or was it your own feeling?  Were you the only one to feel

16     this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can just speak in my

18     own name, but I can also give you my opinions, and I shared the view of

19     most of the Croat inhabitants of Konjic when I said what I said.

20             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Juric, take a look at document P1675.  You can skip over

22     one and find 1675.  Have you found it?

23        A.   1675, you say?

24        Q.   Yes, that's right.  It's a letter signed by Mr. Sefer Halilovic,

25     and he's writing it on the 17th of March, 1993.  And let me ask you

Page 39307

 1     first, Mr. Juric:  When did the conflict -- or, rather, was there an

 2     attack launched by the BH Army against the HVO in March, and what was the

 3     date, if it did?

 4        A.   Yes, the 23rd of March, 1993, was when that happened.

 5        Q.   All right, fine.  So we can look at the document now.

 6     Mr. Sefer Halilovic is writing to the Main Staff of the HVO, and he says

 7     that in Sarajevo, Mr. Arif Pasalic spent some time in Sarajevo and that

 8     he informed him of developments in the area of Herzegovina and beyond.

 9     And he says at the end:

10             "I propose that Pasalic visit you and inform you of our views of

11     existing problems and how we see the possibility of overcoming them.  I

12     hope that this aspect of our cooperation will make our friendship and

13     trust stronger and greater."

14             Signed by Sefer Halilovic.

15             So can we link that up with the previous document and the order

16     given on the 28th of January, which was P814?  May we have your brief

17     comments to this letter and Mr. Halilovic's views expressed there?

18        A.   From this document, we can see that Mr. -- that the gentleman is

19     informing the HVO Main Staff about the fact that cooperation is very

20     good, and the spirit of communality, and that it is being continued, and

21     in the previous document we see that he needs to remove the people that

22     we were having good cooperation with.  So it's not quite clear, what

23     method the man is applying.  However, immediately after this, four days

24     later, there was an all-out attack against the HVO in Konjic, so things

25     became clear to me on that day.

Page 39308

 1        Q.   Mr. Juric, can you explain what actually happened in March, and

 2     when exactly?

 3        A.   On the 23rd of March, 1993, the BH Army attack against the HVO in

 4     Konjic started.  In the morning, the Brigade Command was blocked and the

 5     Battalion Command was blocked, and so was the Military Police.  And in

 6     the early morning hours, Zuka's units were in the area of Bradina, where

 7     our small barracks or training centre had been set up, and they arrested

 8     or took captive 35 of our fighters who were undergoing training over

 9     there.  They did not put up any resistance.  They were inside the

10     facilities and premises.  They confiscated their weapons and the MTS and

11     brought these fighters to Bradina, to the school there, and held them in

12     detention.  According to what I knew, the information I had, this was

13     certainly an attack that had been planned, and it was an attack of a

14     broader scale.  However, in the early-morning hours, the poor weather

15     conditions - it was snowing - made it impossible for further activities

16     that had been planned, for effecting them, and there was a lot of

17     snowfall during the day so that the movement of troops and units were

18     made completely impossible.

19        Q.   Mr. Juric, what happened in the town itself?

20        A.   I've already said that.  In the morning hours, the Brigade

21     Command was blocked, as well as the Battalion Command and the Military

22     Police, and in town members of the units, the Suad Alic Brigade, arrested

23     people, confiscated HVOs -- confiscated weapons from HVO soldiers, and on

24     that day about 150 of our soldiers were disarmed.

25        Q.   What happened next?  Did the conflict cease that day in the area

Page 39309

 1     of responsibility where you were?  What happened next on that day, during

 2     the day?

 3        A.   That same day and the following day, joint meetings were held in

 4     Konjic in order to deal with the situation and calm things down.  Several

 5     meetings were held, and on the 25th of March, in Konjic, Bruno Stojic

 6     arrived, as did Milivoj Petkovic and Arif Pasalic, to size up the

 7     situation in Konjic and to do their best to calm the situation down.

 8     They held a joint meeting in town.  I wasn't there at the meeting.  But

 9     after the meeting, these gentlemen, together with a mixed group from the

10     BH Army and the HVO, I mean, they started touring the positions where

11     some trenches had been dug, and they, themselves, took part in filling in

12     the trenches.  I was in one of those areas.  It was the area of Orlovica

13     [phoen], at the foot of Batar [phoen].  And I'd just like to mention that

14     this combat activity took place in the area of Operation Klis, which is

15     the area of responsibility of the 1st Battalion, and there was much

16     heavier fighting in Klis, up there in that area, and the brigade

17     commander there was Zdravko Sagolj.

18        Q.   Now take a look at the next document, which is 2D2 --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I said that all this

20     was very complicated, but this is really an understatement.  We have a

21     document signed by Halilovic, dated March 17, 1993, sent to the

22     Main Staff of the HVO in Mostar.  In this document, Halilovic is

23     recalling the friendship uniting the HVO and the ABiH, and now you're

24     telling us that just a few days after this, there was an all-out attack,

25     and then we discover that a few days later Mr. Stojic came on site with

Page 39310

 1     Pasalic and others to cool things down.  It's almost impossible to

 2     understand anything.  Either everyone is playing games, Halilovic is

 3     lying, saying, on the one hand, We're for peace, we're for friendship,

 4     and is not actually walking his talk; or there is another explanation

 5     which may involve the HVO and the ABiH.  Behind the heads, there are

 6     other people who have their own agendas and who are doing what they can

 7     for their own agenda, and so they seem -- they just put fire on the keg

 8     of powder, and then the heads have to come over to try and cool things

 9     down.

10             Now, you were there on the field.  You were in the brigade, you

11     played a role in the brigade.  So could you tell us what your opinion is?

12     Do you believe that these attacks had been ordered by the very top

13     echelons or do you believe that these were just attacks that had been

14     triggered at local level by a number of military leaders that were more

15     or less under control, and when these attacks occurred, everybody had to

16     chip in in order to try and cool things down?  What do you think is the

17     actual true version of facts?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within my remit and as far as I'm

19     able to assess the situation at the time, I can just say, loud and clear,

20     that at that time this man, Sefer Halilovic, gave false information in

21     what he said.  And let me just add that I have my suspicions that the

22     conflict was staged at the very top, at the very peaks of the BH Army in

23     Sarajevo, because if Sefer Halilovic was working for the Supreme Command

24     of the BH Army, then this leads me to believe that that was the case.  So

25     those were my suspicions.

Page 39311

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Juric, following on from Judge Antonetti's

 4     question, whether it was planned and who planned it and so on, how the

 5     attack came about, let's look at 2D253, which is the next document.  You

 6     have already seen the document.  We looked at it during the proofing

 7     session.  This document was -- is dated the 20th of March, and it's about

 8     a joint meeting with representatives of the BH Army commands, the

 9     Suad Alic, the Neretvica and Neretva Brigade, and the document was signed

10     by all the representatives of the units mentioned.  Now, did you know

11     these people, or most of them?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Very well.  Now, this is an assessment of the situation in the

14     area of Hadzici, Jablanica and Konjic, and I'd now like to draw your

15     attention to some of the points in this document.  And this is already an

16     exhibit, so let's look at page 2 of the English and Croatian, point 5,

17     where it says in Jablanica, Donje Selo, and Bradina, that at all times

18     the men must be on the alert.  Now, Mr. Juric, we're talking -- this

19     meeting was held on the 20th of March, 1993.  At that point in time, was

20     there a conflict at all between you and the BH Army in Konjic?

21        A.   No, there wasn't, not yet.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, point 9 says the BH Army forces should prepare

23     to take control of Zlatar urgently, and in point 13 it says:

24             "Through the assistant commander for operative affairs and the

25     chiefs of staff, and the Public Security Service, to device a plan for

Page 39312

 1     the united action of all our forces in the area, should the need arise."

 2             Now, Mr. Juric, why was -- well, let me ask you, did you know

 3     about this meeting at all, if you had good relations with the

 4     Suad Alic Brigade?

 5        A.   We did have very good relations.  I did not know about this

 6     meeting, and I claim with certainty that this meeting was not held in

 7     Konjic.  I don't know where it was held, but definitely not in Konjic.

 8        Q.   All right.  Tell me, what did these conclusions mean "especially

 9     prepare army forces to take up Zlatar facility urgently"?

10        A.   That was the plan, to take up and occupy that position, because

11     that was our communications centre.  By taking up that facility, we would

12     no longer have any communication lines with the operations zone or with

13     our units.

14        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please, in that attack on the 23rd of March,

15     was that facility occupied?

16        A.   No, because as I have said earlier, the bad weather most likely

17     was the factor in not allowing them to reach that facility.

18        Q.   Was there later another operation during which this facility,

19     Zlatar, was taken up?

20        A.   Yes, it was later, when there was an all-out offensive against

21     the HVO.

22        Q.   All right.  We will skip over some documents, and now please look

23     at 4D -- that's the next document in your binder --

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Let me intervene, please.  We did

25     not record the entire answer of this witness.  The witness said that this

Page 39313

 1     attack began between the 13th and 14th of April, 1993, and these dates

 2     were not recorded in the transcript.  So could the witness please repeat

 3     the dates that he mentioned?

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you to my colleague.

 5        Q.   Mr. Juric, did you say that the new attack was between -- was

 6     commenced between the 13th and 14th of April, 1993?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, would you please look at just two more documents

 9     in relation to this attack from March.  Would you please look at 4D438.

10     Let me know when you have found the document.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Who signed this report to the 4th Corps?  It was signed by

13     Midhat Cerovac, and he was the commander of Suad Alic Brigade at the

14     time, wasn't he?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And he says that he's hereby informing you about the situation in

17     the area of responsibility of your brigade; 115 of the HVO captured; town

18     blocked; the life and town paralysed.  "We continue with arrests."  Was

19     that how it was, Mr. Juric, according to your recollection?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, would you please skip over a couple of documents.  You said

22     that soon thereafter, a commission arrived.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, the interpreter is

24     asking you to slow down.  You're going too fast.

25             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I lingered

Page 39314

 1     on some topics due to additional questions, and this is why I need to

 2     hurry up now.  I will slow down, though.

 3        Q.   Now, would you please look at 2D463 [as interpreted]?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, this is a report by Veso Vegar.  You said that on the 25th

 6     of March, 1993, Mr. Bruno Stojic came to Konjic, as did Mr. Petkovic, and

 7     here we have the names of some other persons.  And then in the last

 8     paragraph, it says that a joint commission, three-member commission, was

 9     established, a commission of the HVO and the BH Army, and its task was to

10     tour the area engulfed by war activities and to establish the facts on

11     the ground.  And then it says the commission -- after the meeting, the

12     officials of the HVO and the BH Army went to tour the ground, went on the

13     field.  Were you present when they were touring the situation in the

14     field?

15        A.   Yes, and I've already stated so.

16        Q.   I will correct the number in the transcript.  The number of this

17     document is 2D643.  There was a permutation of numbers.

18             Now, let us turn to April of 1993.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before moving on to the months

20     of April, I would like to discuss the months of March.  We can see that

21     an incident took place and that the authorities intervene.  In document

22     2D253, we can see that the army representatives assess the causes of the

23     conflict, and they mention a parallel authority which gave rise to a

24     different tax system, different license plates, and traffic control by

25     the HVO and so on and so form.  So the reasons that led to the conflict

Page 39315

 1     are analysed, and then on the other hand, we see that the authorities

 2     intervened, and this is where I am at a loss.

 3             As far as you are concerned, in this municipality of Konjic, did

 4     you have the feeling that the HVO, with its taxation system and license

 5     plates, had created the conditions for the conflict to erupt?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this document that

 7     you are now referring to, what they describe is the political situation

 8     that I'm not familiar enough in order to be able to comment on it.  If

 9     you're referring to the meeting, I haven't found it yet.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when Mr. Petkovic came

11     on the spot, did you actually see him?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the last time I saw him,

13     when he came to cover up the trenches.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you remember -- my

15     question is a difficult question, because it's difficult to remember what

16     was said 15 years ago.  But as far as you remember, what did

17     General Petkovic say?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean General Petkovic, what

19     they said?  Well, they were in that commission, Stojic, Petkovic and

20     Pasalic, and they never acted individually, any of them.  Their joint

21     appeal was the situation in Konjic had to calm down and conflict should

22     not be allowed to erupt.  There wasn't a lot of talk in those meetings.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If I have

24     understood you well, because it's so complicated, then, when one piece is

25     missing, it's very difficult to understand the whole story, it seems that

Page 39316

 1     Generals Petkovic and Stojic said that the trenches needed to be filled

 2     in.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and they took up shovels and

 4     started filling it -- filling in trenches in some parts, in some

 5     positions.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Mr. Stojic and Mr. Petkovic

 7     picked up the shovels and filled in the trenches.  When these trenches

 8     were dug in the first place, does this mean that this was done without

 9     the HVO Command being aware of it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat?  I haven't

11     understood it quite --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me say it again.  If

13     General Petkovic and Mr. Stojic take a shovel and fill the trenches with

14     soil, this means that they want to make sure that there are no trenches

15     anymore.  But when that happens, the trenches must have been dug before

16     that, and could these trenches have been dug without them knowing about

17     it?  They didn't know anything about it?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was at a local level in

19     Konjic.  This is why they came to tell us that the trenches were being

20     filled in, and that they shouldn't exist.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may allow

23     another intervention, once again not the entire answer was recorded.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As soon as Mr. Petkovic's name

25     is mentioned, you stand up.  What is it you would like to say?

Page 39317

 1     Fortunately, I didn't mention Mr. Prlic.  Otherwise, Mr. Karnavas would

 2     have stood up.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If I may remind you, Your Honours,

 4     I intervened a bit earlier because of the wrong interpretation, and it

 5     had nothing to do with General Petkovic.  Once again, not the entire

 6     answer was recorded.  He first said not -- they didn't know that that was

 7     at a local level, not -- "they didn't know that" was missing, and I think

 8     it's important for you to understand completely.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In French, I heard,

10     no, he didn't know about it.  This is why I continued along those lines.

11     Thank you very much for this clarification.  At any rate, it's an

12     important point, it's important that it's on the transcript.

13             Ms. Nozica.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I thank my colleague.  I was going

15     to intervene, but she did it before me.

16        Q.   You said, Mr. Juric, that conflicts erupted again in April.  Let

17     me ask you now, from that conflict on the 23rd of March, 1993, did the

18     situation calm down until the following attack which took place between

19     the 13th and the 14th of April, 1993?

20        A.   Somewhat.  The situation in Konjic calmed down quickly, because

21     during that conflict there were no victims in Konjic whatsoever.

22     However, the situation in the area of responsibility of the 1st Battalion

23     in Klis was quite complicated, because there were victims there, so that

24     even after that agreement, there were occasional movements of units and

25     there was occasional firing.  There were victims only in the first

Page 39318

 1     conflict, and later on there were no further victims, but there were

 2     movements of units.  So that was the area of responsibility in Klis of

 3     the 1st Battalion, where the commander of the battalion, Zdravko Sagolj,

 4     was located.

 5        Q.   Have I understood you well?  You said in the area of

 6     responsibility of the 1st Battalion, there were victims initially?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And later on, there was only movement of units, but there were no

 9     conflicts, no victims?  Have I understood you well?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Juric, can you explain what happened between the 13th

12     and the 14th of April, 1993?

13        A.   Between the 13th and 14th of April, 1993, is when an all-out

14     attack of the BH Army against HVO began.  In the town of Konjic, in the

15     morning hours, they captured officers of the brigade who were there on

16     their posts, and also members of the Battalion Command, and also the

17     security forces.

18             All in all, they captured 15 people that morning.  And then in

19     the course of the day, they started with operations to take up the Zlatar

20     facility and to attack the edges of Konjic, where Croatian villages were

21     located, Retica [phoen], Galjevo [phoen], Donje Selo, Pokojiste.  On that

22     day, soldiers of the HVO who were not manning positions facing the Army

23     of Republika Srpska, organised the defence of their villages and hamlets,

24     and I found myself among those soldiers because my house was in that

25     sector as well.  We put up resistance.  We organised defence around our

Page 39319

 1     houses.  The combat lasted for four days.  The BH Army brought in new

 2     forces every day, and our defence was weakening.  After four days of

 3     combat, we had 20 -- or, rather, 7 fatalities and 10 wounded slightly.

 4             During the 18th of April, we decided to cross over to the left

 5     bank of the Neretva towards the villages of Zaslivlje, Turije and

 6     Zabrdje.  We had a large number of civilians, and our main duty was to

 7     protect and save those civilians and to transfer them across the Neretva,

 8     so this operation lasted some 14 hours, which is to say that on the 18th

 9     we withdrew from our positions, we abandoned the right bank of the river

10     and crossed over to the left bank to these three villages, Zaslivlje,

11     Turije and Zabrdje.

12        Q.   Can you please tell the Chamber, why did you cross over to this

13     particular area, or did you have any other choice?  Were you deported,

14     expelled from that area?

15        A.   Had we remained on the right bank, we would have all been

16     arrested and taken to a camp, because throughout the duration of this

17     operation, they were making announcements on the radio that HVO soldiers

18     should disarm and place themselves under the command of the BH Army.  We

19     crossed into this other area because, in our view, it was possible to

20     organise some sort of defence in that area.  We believed that we were not

21     far from Konjic and that eventually we would be able to return back to

22     our homes.

23        Q.   What happened with other soldiers of the HVO and Croat civilians

24     in Konjic?  Did you have any information about them?

25        A.   In the course of the night, after we crossed, on the following

Page 39320

 1     day we started urgently organising and setting up defence in that

 2     territory.  The area where we crossed to was just as steep as the part on

 3     the other bank.  If one looks at the Neretva River, one could see the

 4     river flowing, and then there were mild slopes on both banks and we could

 5     have good visibility from that area, so that on the following day we

 6     could follow and we could watch what happened to soldiers and civilians

 7     who had remained on the other side of Neretva.

 8             In the course of the day, the civilians and soldiers were taken

 9     from there to the sector of the village of Gradina where they were taken

10     to interrogation.  Sometime in the afternoon, a group of people was lined

11     up.  In my view, there were more than 150 people in that group, and they

12     were taken to the village of Homolje and then on to a camp in the sports

13     hall in Konjic.  Among those 150 - later on we learned there were also 10

14     Serb civilians among them - civilians were released to go home in the

15     afternoon hours.

16        Q.   What happened?  Did these civilians cross over later -- oh, let

17     me ask you this first:  How long did you remain in that area, Turije,

18     Zabrdje and Zaslivlje?

19        A.   A full 11 months.

20        Q.   How many civilians crossed over, all in all, together with those

21     who initially crossed over with you?

22        A.   Initially, about 600 civilians crossed over, including 150 Serb

23     civilians.  And later on, in the course of 11 months, another 800

24     civilians came to us -- about 800 civilians came to us in this new

25     territory.

Page 39321

 1        Q.   Thank you, Your Honours.  Tell me, please, what happened with the

 2     1st and 3rd Battalion of the HVO?

 3        A.   On that same day when attack was carried out against our units in

 4     Konjic, an attack against the 1st Battalion in Klis was commenced as

 5     well.  We learned about that only in 1993, once we left that area,

 6     because we had no contact -- no communication with them.  And it was only

 7     that we were -- we were only able to see that there was fierce fighting

 8     going on in that area.  Later on, we found out that the commander of the

 9     brigade was located precisely in the area of responsibility of that

10     battalion in Kostajnica, and later on we learned what went on.  We

11     learned that the majority of civilians and soldiers managed to leave the

12     area, and then they were putting up -- those who remained and were

13     putting up defence until July were later captured and taken to the sports

14     hall in Konjic.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Ms. Nozica.  We

16     have to have our 20-minute break now.

17             Looking at how much time you have left.  You have something like

18     15 minutes left, I believe, 15 to 20 minutes, so see how you can use your

19     time at best.  I'm a little bit concerned, because the other Defence

20     counsel will certainly cross-examine the witness, and the Prosecution

21     will have two hours, and we have tomorrow still, but we need to finish

22     tomorrow.

23             Ms. Nozica.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  I truly

25     apologise.  I can see already that I will need an additional 15 minutes

Page 39322

 1     to the time allotted to me, because I had to go back to certain topics,

 2     but that won't exceed 15 minutes.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, well, if that's the

 4     case, I won't put questions to the witness in the future anymore.  That's

 5     for you to say, is it better for the Judge to put the question or is it

 6     better for you to put the question.  I am a good timekeeper, and I know

 7     that the other Defence counsel will need time, and if you ask for an

 8     extra 15 minutes, then the Prosecution will ask for an extra 15 minutes

 9     left.  Whatever the case may be, the Registrar just told me that you've

10     got exactly 16 minutes left, so please think about it.

11             We're going to have our 20-minute break now.

12                           --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, you have the floor.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in view of the remark

16     you made before the break, I do apologise.  I hold your questions in high

17     regard.  Perhaps it was just my poor assessment of time.  So I would like

18     to request just an additional 15 minutes extra time, and I will, of

19     course, try and get through everything I intended as quickly as possible.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm awfully sorry, Ms. Nozica, it appears that I

23     have been the cause for you having been interrupted.  That was not my

24     intention at all, and if you have not finished, I would encourage you to

25     finish.  Excuse me.  There must have been a misunderstanding.

Page 39323

 1             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I just requested

 2     that I be given 15 minutes over my time because I did not assess how much

 3     time I would need -- I did not assess that properly.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Nozica, the Trial Chamber

 6     deliberated and says that you still have 16 minutes.  You had two hours,

 7     and we will not give you any extra time.  You have 16 minutes left.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Juric, can you tell the Trial Chamber, just briefly, what

10     kind of terrain you were forced to go to?  What was in front of you, what

11     was behind you?  What was the kind of terrain there?

12        A.   Turije, Zaslivlje, and Zabrdje are about 24 kilometres of a very

13     hilly terrain, with streams and hillocks, and there are about 300 various

14     facilities or houses which can be -- in which people can live, and there

15     were about a thousand inhabitants.  And then there was a main road, the

16     main road running from Konjic to Mostar above that, and we controlled

17     part of the road for about 1500 metres.  And then to the right you have

18     the Neretva River.  On the right bank of the Neretva River, you had the

19     BH Army, and the Neretva River and the main road divided us for about 200

20     metres, as the crow flies.  Now, behind our positions to the north -- or,

21     rather, to the east was the Army of Republika Srpska, with its positions,

22     so that we were under total encirclement, on the one hand, by the Army of

23     Republika Srpska, and the BH Army on the other.

24        Q.   Mr. Juric, did you have any communication whatsoever with the

25     Defence Department and the Main Staff?  And I'd like to mention here that

Page 39324

 1     you said that you stayed in the area for 11 months.  So could you explain

 2     to us whether you had a radio, radio communication, or communication by

 3     road, or any other type of communication with the Main Staff and the

 4     Defence Department?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber, briefly, what your living

 7     conditions were like?  Or let me put it this way:  Did you have enough

 8     food?

 9        A.   No.  What food we had, we distributed in small amounts, because

10     there were a large number of civilians and the important thing was to

11     give women, children and the elderly the food that we had.  And if

12     anything remained, then we'd distribute it among the fighters.  Because

13     we had the local population, they had some of their stores, and there

14     were two or three shops in the area, so that we used the food that was

15     stored in those shops to feed the population and distributed it in as

16     fair a manner as possible so that people could have food equally, both

17     the citizens and our men.

18        Q.   Did you have electricity?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did you receive any assistance from any international

21     organisations in the form of food, medicines, or anything like that?

22        A.   While I was the commander in the area, until the 3rd of March,

23     1993, I don't remember ever having received any assistance in the form of

24     food or medicines.

25        Q.   Mr. Juric, were you the commander in the area until the 3rd of

Page 39325

 1     March?  Or, rather, until when were you the commander, and how were you

 2     appointed commander of the area?

 3        A.   As we moved to this area, we held a meeting, an urgent meeting,

 4     as I've already said, and the -- I was the deputy commander of the

 5     brigade at the time, and they proposed that I become the commander, and

 6     so I appointed my assistants and closest aides.

 7        Q.   And for how long did you remain commander in the area?

 8        A.   Until the 3rd of March, 1993.  Or, rather, the 3rd of July, 1993,

 9     is what I meant to say.

10        Q.   You said that you stayed on in the area for 11 months.  How did

11     you come to leave the area?

12        A.   After the signing of the Washington Agreement, UNPROFOR pulled us

13     out via Jablanica, Slatina, and further on towards Herzegovina in their

14     APCs.

15        Q.   Okay, fine.  Now, my last topic.  Your unit, in mid-June, did it

16     capture some translators -- some interpreters of the UNHCR?

17        A.   I was informed towards the evening -- my assistant for security

18     informed me that a group of our fighters, without anybody else's

19     knowledge, without any orders, had captured four persons, among whom

20     there were three interpreters and one driver, I believe; and he had to

21     resort to the military police to save these people.  And then he took

22     them to the house that he worked in, where he was accommodated, and

23     interviewed them.  After the interview, we decided that we should keep

24     these people in the area for a few days so that somebody could come to

25     the area, because we'd been there for 60 days without anybody coming to

Page 39326

 1     see how we were doing.  So we thought we'd keep them there and that

 2     somebody might turn up.

 3        Q.   Now let's take a look at a few documents, the first of which is

 4     2D793.  And, Mr. Juric, perhaps -- well, the document will come up on

 5     your screen.  Perhaps you can rely on that.  Here, you have it.  It is

 6     signed by Mr. Stojic, and it is a command to Mr. Keza on the 16th of

 7     June, and it says:

 8             "With the aim to resolving the situation concerning the alleged

 9     capturing of interpreters of UN and EU."

10             And to Mr. Keza representatives in Konjic to use his authority to

11     have the following prisoners released.  Now, Mr.  Keza, did he arrive in

12     your area during those days?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, let's look at the next document, which is P2794, and it is a

15     report from the Tactical Group Canarias.  P2794 is the document, P, not

16     2D but P.  Have you found it perhaps, Mr. Juric?

17        A.   Yes, I have.

18        Q.   This is a report by the Canarias Tactical Group, and please look

19     at point number 3, and underneath that it says "Jablanica-Konjic," which

20     is on your page 4, page 4 of your version.  And it says here that the

21     UNHCR has made a breakthrough to the Konjic pocket, with the aim of

22     holding a meeting, and it says a group of HVO soldiers threatened them

23     with weapons and shot up into the air, capturing the interpreters.  And

24     it seems that the HVO soldiers who had captured the interpreters did so

25     without the knowledge of the commander of the pocket; is that correct?

Page 39327

 1        A.   Yes.  I've already said that.

 2        Q.   Now, on page 2 of this same document, we have the names of the

 3     interpreters, and it says that contact has been established to resolve

 4     the incident and that two letters had been sent, one from General Lasic

 5     and the other from General Stojic, with an order to the commander of the

 6     pocket to free the prisoners.  Did you ever receive one of these letters?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Which one?

 9        A.   The UNPROFOR brought the General Lasic letter.

10        Q.   And did you act upon it?  Did you free the interpreters?

11        A.   No, we didn't free them.  We responded to the letter, sent an

12     answer, and said that we requested someone from a higher HVO level to

13     come to the area to size up the situation and to see the situation we

14     were in.  So we insisted upon that, that somebody should come to the area

15     with UNPROFOR.

16        Q.   I see.  And that explains the next document, which is P2804, so

17     you can just take a look at that.  And from that document, we can see

18     that SpaBat did not manage to break through with Mr. Stojic's letter, and

19     that fully confirms what you've just said.  It is number 1, the area of

20     influence on page 3, and two more documents remain.  P2808 is the first

21     of them.  This, once again, is a report from the commander of the

22     Rapid Intervention Forces, and the date of it is the 17th of June, 1993,

23     and it is on page 4 of your version, where it says that the BH Army,

24     under the heading "Jablanica-Konjic," that the BH Army did not authorise

25     Mr. Keza's passage through the area, and it says that telephone

Page 39328

 1     communication was established by means of the Inmarsat, and that they

 2     talked to you, that Mr. Stojic talked to you and the command of SpaBat;

 3     and that you said that you would give a response with respect to the

 4     freeing of the prisoners at 1700 hours.  Now, can you explain to the

 5     Trial Chamber why you gave them this answer and why you didn't meet their

 6     demands after talking to Mr. Stojic and the commander of SpaBat with

 7     respect to the freeing of the prisoners?

 8        A.   Let me emphasise right away that Mr. Stojic would not be able to

 9     order me directly to implement this order, and the fact that I carried on

10     and left another one and a half hours of the dead-line was because we

11     wanted to analyse the situation a little bit more in order to reach a

12     final decision about what would be done in that area.

13        Q.   According to this document, it says that you said that there was

14     another call at 1700 hours, and you said that the answer would be sent on

15     the 18th of June, 1993?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So after that, did you nevertheless decide to release the

18     interpreters?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20        Q.   Can you please tell the Trial Chamber why?

21        A.   Your Honours, after these two or three days of negotiations,

22     simply we decided that there was no longer the possibility of achieving

23     anything, and then thanks to Mr. Stojic, who promised that we would

24     receive food, even though it did not arrive, we released those people

25     because, in any case, they were a burden to us up there, because we

Page 39329

 1     didn't have enough food for our own people, never mind also to feed the

 2     persons that we had imprisoned in that area or were holding in that area.

 3        Q.   Let's look at the last document.  This is P2826, and --

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may just interject a question.

 5             Mr. Juric, did you at all think on the legal situation, on

 6     whether you were entitled to detain these people?  Did that cross your

 7     mind?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did think about that also,

 9     but we were simply afraid for the security of those people if we were to

10     release them from the area, that somebody else might detain them and

11     ultimately neutralise them, and that later then we would be the ones to

12     bear responsibility and to be accused of committing such a thing.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And it didn't cross your mind that they could

14     take their responsibility, themselves; you simply let them free, and they

15     either go or stay and assess the danger?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't think about that.  And

17     while they were with us in that area, they didn't really complain all

18     that much that they were having a bad time while they were sitting there

19     with us and talking, because they also saw the situation that we were in.

20     And, simply, they too felt sorry for us, expecting that they would be

21     able to help us as much as they could.

22             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you are part of a

24     military structure.  Some interpreters are captured, interpreters who

25     belong to the UN.  Your authorities orders you to release them, and you

Page 39330

 1     say that you wanted to meet up with the authorities to address some

 2     issues.  Do you know that during, first, World War I, and I'm sure that

 3     this also occurred during World War II, that there were situations where

 4     those who did this were actually placed with their back to the wall and

 5     shot for insubordination?  So if you thought that it was possible for you

 6     to have this kind of behaviour towards your authority, this means that

 7     your hierarchy was not able to control you, actually?  This is what it

 8     seems to mean.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the area where we

10     were, nobody could issue orders to us, and we were not able to submit a

11     report to anyone.  We were cut off from everyone.  We could communicate

12     through letters or memos or telegrams via UNPROFOR, so we were -- we

13     decided to do this as a measure of desperation, because our situation

14     there in that area at the time was desperate.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I showed document P2794, P2794.

17     It's a document under seal, so can we please do what is required in

18     relation to that document.

19        Q.   You said, sir, that Mr. Stojic would not be able to issue orders

20     to you.  In view of Judge Antonetti's question, I'm going to come back to

21     that.  But you said you did that because you were promised you would

22     receive food.

23             Can we now look at P2826, please.  Have you found the document?

24             This document is also under seal, so can we please not show the

25     document outside the courtroom.

Page 39331

 1             Sir, have you found the document?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   We have some instructions or directives on procedure or work, and

 4     this is on page 2 in your document, where it says that Mr. Stojic used

 5     all of his persuasion -- powers of persuasion to try to work on the

 6     release of these persons.  And then it says:

 7             "In the last two months the HVO commander in the pocket has been

 8     out of connection.  He acted on his own, without any instructions or

 9     coordination from the HVO HQ."

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   It says:

13             "Mr. Stojic promised to the commander, who was desperate for food

14     and medicine, that he will assist him on this issue.  Mr. Stojic

15     committed himself to go with me to the area," with the person who wrote

16     this document, "to the area with a convoy of supplies."

17             You, yourself, said you did not receive that convoy of supplies.

18     And also it says here that Mr. Stojic promised that he would provide this

19     assistance.  I'm going to ask you, again:  If you did answer that, why

20     did you finally decide to do what you did?  There was a promise, wasn't

21     there, that was made?

22        A.   Well, we were thinking that if the promise was firm that it would

23     also be fulfilled, but as it was, things stayed the way they were.

24        Q.   Sir, can you please tell us, could you be reached without the

25     assistance of international forces, who controlled the roads beneath the

Page 39332

 1     pocket where you happened to be?

 2        A.   It was the B and H Army from Jablanica to the place where we

 3     were.

 4        Q.   In any other way, other than the army territory or through the

 5     territory controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska, was it possible to

 6     reach the area where you were?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And, finally, can you explain to the Trial Chamber, first, did

 9     you receive an order from anyone -- did you receive an order from

10     Mr. Stojic, and did Mr. Stojic -- was Mr. Stojic in a position to issue

11     orders to you?

12        A.   I already said that my immediate superior was the commander of

13     the brigade.  If he was absent, then the next person in line would be the

14     commander of the operations zone or the person of the Main Staff.  So I

15     respected Mr. Stojic for the duties that he was carrying out, but he was

16     not in a position to issue orders to me.

17             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have significantly

18     cut short my questions and I have finished, in respect of your -- in

19     adherence to your decision, and I have even finished two minutes before

20     the time that was allotted to me.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Let's move to 3D.

23             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for our

24     internal order, I would like to state that Mr. Coric's Defence has no

25     questions, just to avoid any kind of confusion.

Page 39333

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you're standing

 2     up.

 3             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the purposes of the

 4     transcript, Mr. President, I would just like to say we have no questions

 5     for this witness.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Mr. Karnavas, 1D.

 8             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon to Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             We have no questions for the gentleman, although we do wish to

11     thank him for coming here to give his evidence.  Thank you very much, and

12     good luck.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

14             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.  Good day

15     to everyone in the courtroom.

16             I would just like the usher to distribute the documents.  I just

17     have questions for the witness for about two or three minutes that have

18     to do with the authenticity of the documents relating to his testimony.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Juric.  I am representing

21     General Praljak.  We had the opportunity to meet briefly when you were in

22     The Hague last time.

23             I would like to ask you to look at this document first.  Look at

24     it carefully.  Look at the person who signed the document.  Look at the

25     memo, whom it's addressed to for the beginning, and, of course, please

Page 39334

 1     look at the date.  The number of the document is 3D03519.

 2             It seems, on the basis of this document, that it was written on

 3     the 14th of October, 1992.  To avoid any kind of misunderstanding, at the

 4     time the HVO and the B and H Army or, rather, the TO and the army jointly

 5     were defending the area where you were from, the JNA aggression; is this

 6     correct?

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Mr. Kovacic.  I read "14/11/92," and

 8     that would be November rather than October.

 9             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, you're quite right,

10     Your Honour.  In Croatian, I said the 14th of the 11th month, that is to

11     say, the 14th of November, 1992, so it's a matter of interpretation.

12        Q.   But I don't see the witness's answer recorded, so could you

13     repeat and tell us if there were no conflicts between the HVO and the

14     BH Army at that time?

15        A.   No, there were no conflicts between the BH Army and the HVO

16     during that time.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's see what's in the document.  Let's look at

18     the contents.  Obviously, there was discussion between Maric and

19     Mehmed Zilic, and you mentioned that link to the events in Konjic, and

20     Arif Pasalic says that he is aware of the following elements:

21             "We found out about the following elements."

22             Anyway, it is a letter addressed to whom, please?  Who is it

23     addressed to?

24        A.   The Municipal Staff of Mostar, the HVO Municipal Staff, Mostar.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, from this, do you consider that it is a fact

Page 39335

 1     that Arif Pasalic, writing to the HVO Municipal Staff of Mostar, confirms

 2     that there's complete cooperation between them at that time?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And that agrees with what you knew of the situation at the time;

 5     is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Among other things, in the second line of the middle part of the

 8     text -- well, let's read it out.  Pasalic says:

 9             "The BH Army units and the HVO Herceg Stjepan Brigade jointly

10     elaborated a plan of activities in detail."

11             And then he goes on to say:

12             "They are waiting for Mr. Praljak's order."

13             Now, can you tell me what activities or what plan of the -- what

14     plan of the BH Army and HVO Herceg Stjepan Brigade is this?  Did you know

15     that there were joint plans with respect to certain operations?

16        A.   Yes.  We compiled an order jointly for the liberation of the town

17     of Konjic from the Army of Republika Srpska.  It was an order for attack,

18     and we compiled that together with the BH Army.  We compiled the map and

19     wrote out the order jointly.

20        Q.   Very well.  Now, within the plan, did the plan provide for the

21     fact that General Praljak would launch the action, that it was up to him

22     to decide when, when the operation would start?

23        A.   I'm not quite sure of that, so I can't say with any certainty.

24        Q.   And do you know that General Praljak played a role in the plan to

25     refute the Serbs from Konjic, the surrounding parts of Konjic, to push

Page 39336

 1     the Serbs back, in view of the fact that it says here they are waiting

 2     for Mr. Praljak's order?  What does it mean, that line, that point,

 3     they're waiting for Mr. Praljak's order?

 4        A.   Well, I think that would mean that Mr. Praljak was to give the

 5     green light for the attack.

 6        Q.   All right, thank you.  Now, the individuals mentioned here,

 7     Stanko Maric and Mehmed Zilic, you mentioned them during your testimony.

 8     You know who they are?

 9        A.   Yes, I know Mr. Stanko Maric and Mr. Mehmed Zilic.

10             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That completes my

11     examination.  I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, where does this

13     document come from?

14             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] This document, as far as I remember

15     off the top of my head, is the result of my own investigation.  It was

16     brought from Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I don't have the information to hand

17     in greater detail.  Perhaps Mr. Praljak has some additional information

18     to give you, if you will allow him to speak.

19             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have

20     any additional information about the document, but I would like to be

21     allowed to ask a question.  I'd like to ask the witness a question,

22     myself.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Praljak:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Before this date when the plan of attack was

25     determined, did you see me in Konjic at all, and did you happen to know

Page 39337

 1     that with a joint team from the BH Army and the HVO, I carried out

 2     reconnaissance in the area, the area that we were supposed to liberate?

 3        A.   Yes, and we met, and you came to the headquarters.  I saw you.

 4             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Yes.  And there's another

 5     document that testifies -- well, I don't know why we didn't look at this

 6     other document.  It should be put up on the ELMO.  It testifies that the

 7     beginning of the operation --

 8        Q.   Well, do you remember that it was a joint operation, devised

 9     jointly, and so on and so forth?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED PRALJAK: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to the

14     Trial Chamber and everybody else.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  I'm going to give

16     you the floor, but I am turning to the witness.

17             Witness, if I have understood you well, around the months of

18     November, or a few days before the 14th, you met General Praljak; is that

19     right?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Praljak came to Konjic.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was he representing?  Let

22     me repeat.  When he came, who was Mr. Praljak for you at the time?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that a man was coming from

24     the Main Staff of the HVO.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When he came, was he a person

Page 39338

 1     with some authority or were there decisions taken by the local HVO?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, but could

 3     you repeat your question?  I am afraid my hearing isn't what it used to

 4     be, and that's why I speak fairly loudly.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When Mr. Praljak came, given

 6     your position at the time, did you feel that this was a man of authority

 7     who was coming, or was this somebody from the Main Staff of the HVO, and

 8     despite that, any decision would be taken by the local HVO?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was the assistant

10     chief for operations and training, and I was on duty in my brigade.  I

11     received the gentleman and reported about the numerical situation in

12     Konjic.  Now, I received the gentleman as somebody who had authority.  He

13     was the person who had authority.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             Mr. Alaburic, we have 15 minutes left.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we still have about

17     15 minutes left today, but I think that I will use the rest of the time

18     that was allocated to the Defence.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Juric, special greetings to you.

21        A.   Thank you.

22        Q.   We haven't had the opportunity to meet so far; is that correct,

23     Mr. Juric?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Very well.  I know that Mr. Bruno Stojic's Defence is familiar

Page 39339

 1     with the documents on Konjic, prepared by the Petkovic Defence, so I hope

 2     that you are also familiar with those documents and that you will be able

 3     to comment on those documents.

 4             Mr. Juric, I'm only going to tell you this:  I'm going to ask you

 5     exclusively about questions which you described on the 23rd of March,

 6     1993, then the conflict in April 1993, and I'm going to show you some

 7     documents.  I would like to draw your attention to parts of those

 8     documents, and I would like you just to say whether what is written in

 9     the documents corresponds to what you know, and if you don't know, then

10     we're going to move to the next document without much discussion.

11             The first series of documents has to do with the 23rd of March,

12     1993.  On that day, if I understood you correctly, Mr. Juric, you said

13     that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina attacked the HVO in the Konjic

14     sector; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The first document that I prepared is 4D438.  It was already

17     shown to you by my learned friend Ms. Nozica, so we will skip it.

18             Can you please look at the first document that follows.  That's

19     document 3D550.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In this document, the commander of the 7th Brigade, Suad Alic,

22     Mr. Midhat Cerovac, informs the commander of the 4th Corps that:

23             "Related to yesterday's arrests, we completely surrounded or

24     blocked the town."

25             The previous document that you already commented on contains the

Page 39340

 1     identical sentence.  Mr. Juric, can you confirm that this document

 2     corresponds to what you really do know about the blockade of Konjic of

 3     that day?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Let's look at the next document, and that is 4D125,

 6     and that is document P1709.  Mr. Juric, you spoke about how the joint

 7     commission of the HVO and the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army was formed and

 8     how members of that commission came to the Konjic area in those days.

 9     Can you please tell us if you saw this joint command of Mr. Petkovic and

10     Mr. Pasalic before on behalf of the HVO and the Army of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   All right.  The introduction of the order speaks about attempts

14     to calm down tensions in certain areas.  Can you please tell us whether

15     these attempts to calm tensions in that area corresponds to what you know

16     about the efforts of the military commanders of the two armies?  Did they

17     really try to calm down the tensions?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you look at item 8, where it says:

20             "The joint commission of the HVO and the BH Army that is being

21     sent to you shall have all the powers in commanding."

22             Did you know about the establishment of that commission which was

23     supposed to come to your sector as well?

24        A.   No, I didn't.

25        Q.   All right.  Now we're going to skip the next document that talks

Page 39341

 1     about that commission.  That's document 2D638.  We are going to skip that

 2     document, and we're going to skip the next document.

 3             Can you now please look at P1712, P1712.  It's an interim report

 4     from the Rama Brigade, where it says dramatic news are arriving from

 5     Konjic about the situation in the town and that they are asking from

 6     Konjic that the Rama Brigade artillery opens fire at the villages that

 7     are noted here.  Mr. Juric, can you please tell us, according to your

 8     knowledge, was the situation in Konjic on that day, the 23rd of March,

 9     really dramatic?

10        A.   Yes.  That day, I already described the attack on our barracks in

11     Bradina took place, and these villages also that are referred to here are

12     in the area of responsibility of the 1st Battalion in Klisa.

13        Q.   Mr. Juric, can you please tell us, if you know, that there was no

14     artillery activity from the Rama Brigade, in spite of the requests from

15     Konjic, on that day and the following days?

16        A.   I don't think that there was, but I cannot be sure.  I wasn't in

17     Konjic.  Where I was is quite a way from Konjic.

18        Q.   All right.  Now we're going to move to March.  This is document

19     4D872 [Realtime transcript read in error, "4D782"] that we're going to be

20     looking at now.  It's a report of the commander of the Klis 1st Brigade

21     Mr. Zeljko Mlikota, for the 24th of March, 1993.  Can you tell us,

22     Mr. Juric, did you know Mr. Mlikota?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   So he was really able to submit a report on behalf of this

25     brigade, he had the authority to do that?

Page 39342

 1        A.   Yes, he did.  He did the Information and Propaganda Section in

 2     that area -- in that brigade.

 3        Q.   In that letter, it says --

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me for being precise, but here the

 5     document's number seems to be 4D00872 and not as it is written a few

 6     lines above, 782.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] That is correct.  I thank you,

 8     Your Honour Judge Trechsel.  It is 4D872, and we're talking about the

 9     contents of the document.  It's saying that the forces of the Army of

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina from the morning have started intense firing at

11     positions of the HVO, and then the military police of the HVO's blocked

12     in Konjic, and the Command of the 2nd Battalion, and that "our flags are

13     being burned in town," and HVO people or Croats were being arrested.

14             Mr. Juric, can you please tell us, does this correspond to the

15     actual situation on the ground.

16        A.   Yes.  We talked about that before, and I already described the

17     events there.

18        Q.   At the bottom of the page and the beginning of the next page in

19     the Croatian text, and that is the end of page 2 in the English text, it

20     says:

21             "We received information that the Suad Alic Brigade had been

22     tasked to defeat us militarily at all positions around Konjic," or,

23     rather, "on all the lines towards the Chetniks."

24             Is this something that also corresponds to what you know about

25     the situation?

Page 39343

 1        A.   Yes.  Members of this brigade, the Suad Alic Brigade, were

 2     disarming and arresting our fighters.  I also mentioned how many were

 3     arrested that day; 150 of them.

 4        Q.   All right, very well.  Let's look at the next document, 4D554.

 5     Although you said that you didn't know about the commission that was

 6     formed according to the previous order, Mr. Juric, but did you know that

 7     there was a commission that came to the Konjic area, so that Petkovic and

 8     Pasalic came to that area as members of that commission?  Is that how it

 9     was?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Let's look at what it says in this document.  Mr. Arif Pasalic,

12     on the 26th of March, 1993, it's a document in which he informs his

13     superior, Sefer Halilovic, about the situation.  The commission is tasked

14     with monitoring and securing a cease-fire.  The same is going to

15     submit -- well, the sentence is not correct, an announcement by the

16     public media.  And now I'm going to read the last part:

17             "Safet Cibo has arrived, and he will be connected in Jablanica

18     and Konjic and will be continuing his further duties."

19             Mr. Juric, do you ever hear the name Mr. Safet Cibo before?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know who that is?

22        A.   That is Dr. Safet Cibo.

23        Q.   Can you please tell us if this was the person who was the number

24     one -- actually, who replaced the number-one person in Konjic?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct, Dr. Rusmir.

Page 39344

 1        Q.   So we said that Mr. Safet Cibo replaced Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.

 2     Mr. Juric, you said that Mr. Hadzihuseinovic was somebody who wanted to

 3     establish good relations with Croats?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What would you say about Safet Cibo in that sense?  Was he also

 6     that sort of person?

 7        A.   No.  He had just come.  He was sent from Sarajevo in order to

 8     cause the conflicts which actually did break out in March and April.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.  I'm going to skip the next document so that

10     we can make the best use of our time.

11             Let's look at document 4D434.  It's a document after the one that

12     we are skipping.  There is a commission report here, and we can see the

13     composition of the commission.  It's sent to the Main Staff of the HVO on

14     the 26th of March, 1993, and it says that the commission toured the

15     crisis area in the broader region of Klis, removed the barricades, cooled

16     the passions, halted the fire, and partially withdrew the army to their

17     initial positions.  And even though Klis is mentioned here, Mr. Juric,

18     and you were not there, does that correspond to what you know about the

19     situation on the ground?

20        A.   Yes, because our commander, Zdravko Sagolj, told us that a

21     commission had come to Klis and had toured these sections.

22        Q.   Can we look at 2D645.  That's the next document.  Again, the

23     representatives of the joint commission of the Army of the BiH and the

24     HVO, on the 28th of March, 1993, are informing their superiors about the

25     situation, and it says -- well, they mention the villages that the

Page 39345

 1     commission toured during the day, and it says that in the crisis areas,

 2     local commissions were formed, which are working on filling in the

 3     trenches and restoration of trust.

 4             Mr. Juric, what you read here, does that correspond to the

 5     situation on the ground?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Let us now look at the next document, P1810, 1810.

 8     It's a joint report of the Main Staff of the HVO for the 4th of April,

 9     1993.  Let's look at page 3, the report pertaining to Konjic.  In the

10     English text, this is also on page 3, and it says here, amongst other

11     things, that members of the B and H Army commission did not show up in

12     Klis.  They had a meeting at a motel in Konjic at 1600 hours, where the

13     newly-appointed mayor was supposed to be presented to the commanders of

14     brigades of the B and H Army.

15             Mr. Juric, can you please tell us if this mayor who is being

16     referred to here is perhaps Mr. Safet Cibo whom we mentioned before?

17        A.   Well, yes, it seems to me that it is.

18        Q.   It says -- we're going to skip a paragraph, and then it says

19     Croats are not allowed to pass the check-point at Oracac [phoen] under

20     the pretext that moving out is being prevented in this way.  A group of

21     members of the B and H Army got into Prijeslop village at about 1800

22     hours.  They were destroying things, plundering, and expelling women and

23     children who were still in the village.  So from this last piece of the

24     text that we read, it seems that in April 1993, in spite of everything,

25     there were certain provocations and incidents in the Konjic sector

Page 39346

 1     provoked or caused by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is this

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Yes, it's correct, and I also pointed that out, that in Konjic

 4     itself and in the area around Konjic, there were no such incidents,

 5     although tensions were high.  But I did say that in this area of

 6     responsibility in Klis, conflicts continued, and they continued

 7     throughout this whole period.

 8        Q.   Let us look at the next document.  It's 2D774.  It's a report

 9     from the 1st Brigade of -- the 1st Battalion of Klisa, and it's sent to

10     the Main Staff and the command of the operations zone for the previous

11     day.  It says that there were occasional provocations.  The village of

12     Gornji Prijeslop and Aleksin Han are mentioned, and it says that HVO

13     members and the barracks were fired at, and there was intense

14     entrenchment of Muslim forces that was reported.  I'm not going to read

15     any more.  My question, Mr. Juric, is:  Are you aware of these events,

16     and do they confirm your assertions that there were incidents which kept

17     growing in number and significance in April 1993?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   We have time for one more document.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  No, you have no

21     more time, because it is now 7.00.

22             A follow-up question for you, Witness.  In this document, it

23     says:

24             "We cannot discard the idea that a member of KOS may be present."

25             I assume this has to do with Jusa Hadzajlic, nicknamed Homeini.

Page 39347

 1     The fact that this is mentioned, well, does this mean that as far as the

 2     HVO in Konjic is concerned - you were a member of the HVO - you could not

 3     discard the idea that the Serbs, through their intelligence services or

 4     counter-intelligence, were manipulating some people to fuel the conflict?

 5     Is this what this means?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Your Honours.  If you

 7     can repeat your question.  I'm not quite sure I understand the whole

 8     question.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Every time I put a question --

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] If you permit me, Your Honour, I

11     would like to put the same question.

12        Q.   Based on this document, Mr. Juric, it can be concluded that this

13     gentleman who is mentioned here, Jusa Hadzajlic, could perhaps be a

14     member of the KOS, and then that begs the question that members of the

15     HVO, you and your colleagues, believed that some events, or some clashes

16     with the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army were actually a consequence of KOS

17     activity, that they were -- there were provocations organised in advance

18     in order to provoke conflicts between the Muslims and the HVO, all under

19     KOS organisation?

20        A.   I'm sorry, can you put the question to me again?

21        Q.   Very well.  Perhaps we can do it tomorrow.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put the question tomorrow.

23     Ms. Alaburic, you can put the question to the witness again.  I have the

24     feeling that things run more smoothly when you put the question.

25             Witness, you will therefore be coming back tomorrow.  We shall be

Page 39348

 1     sitting in the morning, and we will start at 9.00.  According to the

 2     calculations of the Registrar, there will be 40 minutes left for

 3     cross-examination.

 4             I wish you all a pleasant evening, and we shall meet again

 5     tomorrow at 9.00.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of April,

 8                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.