Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 48531

 1                           Tuesday, 19 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et

11     al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

13             This is Tuesday, January 19, 2010, and I welcome our witness,

14     first and foremost, then the accused, the counsel for Defence, and all

15     members of the OTP in the courtroom, as well as everyone helping us.

16             The Registrar has three IC numbers for us, I believe.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Some parties have submitted lists of documents to be tendered

19     through Witness Vinko Maric.  The list submitted by 4D shall be given

20     Exhibit IC01157.  The list submitted by the OTP has already been given

21     Exhibit IC01158, and 4D and 2D have also submitted their objections to

22     the Prosecution's list of documents tendered via Witness Vinko Maric.

23     This list shall be given Exhibit IC01159 and 1160 respectively.  The

24     Prosecution has also submitted its objections to the lists of documents

25     tendered by the Petkovic Defence team via Witness Vinko Maric.  This list

Page 48532

 1     shall be given Exhibit IC01161.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

 3             Let me now give the floor to Ms. Alaburic for the rest of her

 4     examination-in-chief.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 6                           WITNESS:  RADMILO JASAK [Resumed]

 7                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to everyone in the

 9     courtroom.  A very good afternoon to you, Mr. Jasak.

10             Just to remind everyone, we started discussing Muslims as

11     soldiers of the HVO yesterday.  We said that there were Muslim soldiers

12     in the units, that they were free to become members of the HVO, and there

13     was no discrimination against them.  I'll take it from there now.

14                           Examination by Ms. Alaburic:  [Continued]

15        Q.   Mr. Jasak, when the first serious clashes broke out between the

16     HVO and the BH Army, do you know what combat assignments Muslim soldiers

17     of the HVO were primarily given?

18        A.   Yes.  The primary assignment was to defend from the VRS.  They

19     were deployed along the lines facing the VRS.

20        Q.   How do you know that, given the fact that at the time you were

21     already with the VOS of the Main Staff?

22        A.   I know because my former colleagues, whenever we met somewhere

23     about town, having coffee together, or back at the Main Staff, would talk

24     to me about it.

25        Q.   At one point in 1993, did the Muslim soldiers of the HVO start

Page 48533

 1     leaving the HVO in considerable numbers?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.  That was after the 9th of May.

 3        Q.   How did the HVO treat the Muslim soldiers who remained in the HVO

 4     after that?

 5        A.   The treatment that the Muslim soldiers in the HVO received after

 6     that was the same as everyone else.  There was a great deal of

 7     appreciation for their decision to remain and to stick it out with their

 8     fellow fighters with whom they had been fighting the VRS from Day 1.

 9        Q.   Let us now look at a number of documents now covering these

10     topics.  The first one up is P1083 -- P10180 [as interpreted] -- 180.

11             Mr. Jasak, have you ever heard of this decision or, indeed, seen

12     it?

13        A.   Yes, I heard of it, and I saw it too.

14        Q.   I want to know about paragraph 3 of this decision.  The first

15     section states that the HVO is made up by members of the Muslim and Croat

16     peoples and other ethnicities, recognising the legal authorities of the

17     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and pledging allegiance to them.  If

18     we look at this definition of multi-ethnicity as it applied to the HVO,

19     would you say that that was the actual reality?

20        A.   Yes, if you look at this definition, you could say that that was

21     how it worked out in practice too.

22        Q.   If we move down to the next paragraph, it says that the Muslims

23     were free to set up their own armed units, which would then be placed

24     under the single command of the HVO, specifically the Mostar Municipal

25     Staff.  My first question:  Did the Muslims in Mostar, in fact, set up

Page 48534

 1     their own units or forces?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.  They set up an independent battalion in Mostar.

 3        Q.   How did that battalion evolve?

 4        A.   It grew and eventually ended up as a brigade, and the brigade was

 5     then transformed into the 4th Corps.

 6        Q.   Are we talking about the BH Army?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right, we're talking about the BH Army, the 4th Corps

 8     of the BH Army.

 9        Q.   Mr. Jasak, this battalion that later became a brigade, was it

10     really under the single command of the Mostar HVO?

11        A.   Yes, it was.  The battalion, which later became a brigade, were

12     under the single command of the Mostar HVO.

13        Q.   Did you hear about the HVO being subordinated, in an operative

14     sense, to the BH Army Command in any local area across

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16        A.   I heard that this was, in fact, the case in Sarajevo, Tuzla, and,

17     I believe, Zenica.

18        Q.   Let's move on to the next document, 4D75.  This is a letter

19     written by the chief of the Main Staff, Milivoj Petkovic, and dispatched

20     to Sefer Halilovic in February 1993.  Mr. Jasak, I will read back to you

21     a sentence from this document and ask you to please comment on it in your

22     capacity as a former employee of the Main Staff at a time when

23     Milivoj Petkovic was, in fact, chief of the Main Staff.

24             So what we see happening here is Milivoj Petkovic telling his

25     colleague, his counterpart in the BH Army, as follows, and I quote:

Page 48535

 1             "I was looking forward to every new fighter, be it a Croat or a

 2     Muslim, since I know that they shared an objective.  The HVO has never

 3     changed its attitude towards the BH Army or its position regarding the

 4     BH Army.  We are fully aware that neither the BH Army nor the HVO, as

 5     they are right now, can ever ultimately defeat the Chetniks."

 6             Mr. Jasak, what exactly would you say?  What we see here in

 7     writing, was that a truthfully-expressed position by Milivoj Petkovic or

 8     was he actually trying to sell some lies to his counterpart in the

 9     BH Army, his colleague in the BH Army?

10        A.   He meant this truthfully.  There was a long front-line facing the

11     VRS or, rather, in the area that was liberated following fighting against

12     the VRS.  We needed men to actually man that line, and each new fighter

13     was a welcome addition.

14        Q.   Did General Petkovic see the Muslim soldiers in the HVO as a

15     factor of stability or as an element disrupting the stability of the HVO?

16             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Petkovic --

18             MR. SCOTT:  I guess it didn't take too long.  I raise the same

19     question, the issues I raised yesterday as to foundation.  What is the

20     foundation of this evidence?  Did this witness talk to Mr. Petkovic, did

21     they talk?  Did they go to church together and go to confession together

22     and say, I really, really believe this to be true?  I mean, what's the

23     basis for expressing opinions about Mr. Petkovic's beliefs and feelings?

24     There's no evidence in the record so far that provides any basis for

25     this.  Any witness can be asked this, essentially, which means that

Page 48536

 1     there's no basis for it.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, in order to

 3     prevent these kind of objections, which are a waste of time, as far as

 4     I'm concerned - I have more important things to do than listen to

 5     objections - please try to be more professional in the way you put your

 6     questions.  You could have asked your witness, Did you meet Mr. Petkovic?

 7     Answer, Yes, No.  If he says, Yes, go on.  You can ask further ask him

 8     whether he talked with him.  Answer, Yes.  Then you can press on and say,

 9     Did you think the man had any qualities?  And he says, Yes, and you can

10     continue, and then the Prosecutor will not have to be on his feet and

11     raise objections.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

13     objection by Mr. Scott was entirely unfounded.  He was listening -- or,

14     rather, had he been listening closely to my question, he would not have

15     objected at all.

16             In terms of your instructions to me to be professional, which

17     would then probably mean that I'm being unprofessional, is just as

18     unfounded.  I think that sort of caution should have been addressed to

19     Mr. Scott and not to me.

20             If you look at the very beginning of my question about this, I

21     said that I was asking Mr. Jasak this as a person who worked with

22     General Petkovic back at the Main Staff.  We have all seen his CV.  We

23     know that they spent time working together at the Main Staff; about eight

24     months, in fact.  I simply do not believe that I have to repeat that

25     every single time I --

Page 48537

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you might know

 2     it, but the Prosecutor does not know it, obviously, and that is why he is

 3     raising to his feet.  That's where the problem lies.  Things are obvious

 4     for you, maybe, but you have four seconds to ask him to confirm what you

 5     know.  You've worked with General Petkovic?  Yes.  And then you can go

 6     on.  I'm not here to say he's wrong, he's right, or you're right, he's

 7     wrong.  Absolutely not.  We could do that, of course, but it will not

 8     be -- it's not what I'm going to have to decide on as far as the

 9     judgement is concerned.  I'm going to have to decide on the individual

10     liability of your client and not on Mr. Scott's objection.  Sometimes

11     they're justified, it's true, but sometimes I believe that it's just a

12     waste of time.  Maybe my colleagues don't feel like I do, but I do.

13             I'm not saying you're not a professional, of course not, but I

14     would rather that make sure that you prevent these kind of problems by

15     putting your question in a different way.  Establish a link between the

16     witness and General Petkovic, and then when the connection is

17     established, just further on, just press on, and we have no objection.

18             Mr. Scott.

19             JUDGE PRANDLER:  Sorry.  Excuse me.

20             I would like only to make a correction which is in this context,

21     rather important, that in line 12 it is now written that when you spoke

22     to Ms. Alaburic, that, I am not saying you are a professional, of course

23     not.  I believe that you wanted to say that, I am not saying that you are

24     not a professional.  But, therefore, I believe that it is a quite

25     important difference, so this line should be corrected accordingly.

Page 48538

 1     Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott.

 3             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honours, it's --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Scott, please.

 5             MR. SCOTT:  My apologies.

 6             Mr. President, Your Honours, I certainly don't -- it's certainly

 7     not my intention to try the Chamber's patience, and I wouldn't be on my

 8     feet unless I felt -- at least I felt professionally and in good faith

 9     that there was an objection that needed to be raised.

10             To pick up on what you said, Mr. President, I don't think it's

11     only what I don't know, and with the greatest respect, I don't think the

12     Chamber can know, either, because of the basis of what's in the record so

13     far.

14             My colleagues and I last night, you know, read yesterday's

15     testimony from top to bottom as to what this witness has told us so far

16     since beginning his testimony yesterday about what he was doing at these

17     various times, and, frankly, we know almost nothing.  And Judge Trechsel

18     at one point yesterday began to pick up on it.  The witness went off on a

19     bit of a tangent, gave, well, at best a partial answer, and then it went

20     on from there.

21             All we know is this man says he was in VOS, having something to

22     do with the Main Staff, based somewhere in Mostar, between the period

23     October 1992 and June 1993.  In July and August 1993, he took on some

24     other undefined responsibilities in Sector North, and in August of 1993

25     went to Zagreb.

Page 48539

 1             Now, I submit to Your Honours, unless I'm mistaken, which is

 2     always possible - I'm a human being, I am fallible - but my colleagues

 3     and I reviewed the testimony last night and that's all we know about this

 4     man.  We don't know if he was sitting in a basement in Mostar with

 5     headsets on, listening to intercept communications.  We don't know if he

 6     was Mr. Petkovic's aide-de-camp sitting at his elbow every day.  We don't

 7     know if they ever talked during the war.

 8             To say that he worked for the Main Staff, a lot of people worked

 9     for the Main Staff in one respect or another, but may have never had a

10     single conversation with Mr. Petkovic, may have never seen Mr. Petkovic.

11     Now, that may be unlikely, but we don't know.  And I think after at least

12     one full day's testimony, with the greatest submission, and the reason

13     I'm on my feet, is that there's still been no foundation by which we can

14     judge the evidence of this witness.

15             What is the point of spending two weeks listening to this witness

16     if at the last -- two weeks from now we find out, Well, you know, I was

17     sitting in my cubicle in the basement in West Mostar for three or four

18     months writing reports, I never saw Mr. Petkovic, I was never out, I was

19     never in Stolac, I was never here, I was never there.  We don't know.  It

20     would be very simple, with the greatest respect to my colleague, who I

21     have the great respect and affection for, it would be easy for her to

22     tell us that.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, may I?

24     May I say the following, please?

25             I think we cannot do this with each and every witness who enters

Page 48540

 1     the courtroom, start with pre-history and then produce evidence to every

 2     single fact.  We do believe that a number of facts have been sufficiently

 3     established so far.  We are simply pressing on with our case.

 4             As for the cubicle in the basement and the unidentified location

 5     at which Mr. Jasak was working in Mostar, I do wish to draw your

 6     attention to one thing, and that is the evidence in this case, as

 7     follows:  The ground plan of the building in Mostar where the Main Staff

 8     was actually based up until July 1993, room number 2 on that ground plan

 9     is clearly marked -- no, no, no, no, Your Honour, no.  I am responding to

10     Mr. Scott's objection.

11             What I'm trying to say is this:  Back then, we defined the exact

12     location of the VOS.  I can't be expected to go through this time and

13     again with every single witness.  I have the right to assume that

14     Mr. Scott is familiar with the evidence as admitted.  I'm at liberty to

15     assume that Mr. Scott knows the exact location of the VOS.  If he doesn't

16     know that, if he's suspicious about anything at all, he will get a chance

17     during his cross-examination to check this with the witness.

18             There is one thing I'd like to check.  I did establish a link

19     with his ground plan, EC1146.  I specifically asked the witness whether

20     he had a chance to see it, to look at the ground plan.  I asked him about

21     the surface covered by this building.  I asked him whether this was the

22     building in which he, too, was working at the time, all of which he

23     confirmed.  I am pressing on.  I am continuing with this story, assuming

24     everyone now knows that the witness and his boss were sitting in that

25     particular room of the Main Staff.

Page 48541

 1             Please, if I may be allowed to finish, Your Honours.  I'm just

 2     trying to remind everyone that my question about this topic was on

 3     page 4, lines 22, 23, as follows:  The witness, as an official of the

 4     Main Staff at the time that Milivoj Petkovic was there, should answer

 5     these questions, given his knowledge of General Petkovic, his

 6     acquaintance with General Petkovic.  If this witness comes across

 7     something that he simply doesn't know, he will specify that.

 8             If Mr. Scott has any specific questions, he always has the

 9     cross-examination to try it out.  Everything that Mr. Scott has been

10     raising should have been raised on cross-examination and not now.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you've talked at

12     length, but you didn't say anything.  Your case is the following:  You're

13     saying that you started from the ground plan that establishes where VOS

14     was located, and then, I have my link, my connection.  But it's not

15     enough, and this is why Mr. Scott is right, because this person maybe was

16     just, you know, cleaning the premises in the VOS or he was maybe just

17     rank and file, and he was there, you know, placing the tapes so people

18     could do the wire-tapping.  I know he worked at the VOS, but what exactly

19     was his job.  This is what we need to know.

20             This is what Mr. Scott asking you to find out, and you could have

21     the answer in just two minutes.  Just ask him:  Did you supervise anyone,

22     were you an officer?  Answer, Yes.  Did you meet Mr. Petkovic?  Answer,

23     Yes.  Did you talk to Mr. Petkovic?  Answer, Yes.  And then you have your

24     connection and your foundation, and then you could press on, because

25     Mr. Scott is telling us, rightly so, that he has no idea who this man --

Page 48542

 1     what this man was doing.  It's a question that he has, and everyone could

 2     have the same question in mind.  But it only takes a few questions to get

 3     the answer, and you don't have to use the document of the ground plan,

 4     this ground plan, because that's not sufficient as far as I'm concerned.

 5     He could have been just, you know, the cleaning person in that building.

 6     We need to know exactly what his job was.

 7             Put a few questions and solve the problem and find the

 8     connection, and that way we will prevent objections.  That's the way to

 9     do the job.

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

11     remind you that we covered this witness's CV.  It was stated, with

12     perfect clarity, that the witness first worked as a battalion commander

13     and then came to the VOS at the Main Staff.  He was an analyst, and he

14     was in charge of the Eastern Herzegovina Operation Zone.  Therefore,

15     there is no doubt as to whether he was a cleaner at the building or not.

16     His position is perfectly clear.  The answers were addressed regarding

17     certain documents.  I went through that time and again, and I simply fail

18     to understand how there could be anyone in this courtroom who still

19     doesn't get it.

20             As for the ground plan in the building and mentioning that,

21     Your Honour, Judge Antonetti, I would like to say the following:  That

22     was my response to Mr. Scott's objection, when he said that the witness

23     may as well have been working in a cubicle somewhere in the basement.  I

24     have to say that I find an objection or remark like that as entirely

25     unfounded and perhaps not sufficiently serious.

Page 48543

 1             I regret that you fail to protect me this time around, as the

 2     Prosecutor is normally protected from any objections raised by one of the

 3     Defence teams.  I do believe that we now can press --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I'm protecting no

 5     one.  I'm not here to protect anyone, the Prosecutor or anyone.  All I

 6     want is the job to be done professionally so that there are no

 7     objections, because what's interesting for myself, as a Judge, and for

 8     the entire Bench, I believe, is to take a look at the documents and see

 9     what is written in the documents.  That's the important thing.  And if he

10     knows what's in the document, we need to know why it is that he knows

11     what is in this document.  Did he see documents written by Mr. Petkovic

12     at the time?  Did he see any political analysis drafted by Mr. Petkovic

13     at the time?  That is what we are interested in, that's all.

14             Now, you can use your time as you want, and if Mr. Scott raises

15     to his feet, fine, he will.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I

17     believe that my learned friend Mr. Scott has every right to object, which

18     doesn't solely mean that each and every objection he raises is well

19     founded.  I don't know what his objection will be about.  He decided to

20     do that, and that's why he is in this courtroom.  After so many months, I

21     have no idea why, just to be perfectly open and sincere about that.

22             As far as any further examination that I may or may not have on

23     this document, you haven't given me a chance to ask my questions.  I

24     started to ask my first question about that, and then Mr. Scott objected,

25     and then now we spend the rest of the time talking about that.  Had you

Page 48544

 1     allowed meet to begin with to complete my examination based on that

 2     particular document and had there been anything relevant that remained to

 3     be clarified, I would have been entirely in agreement with this

 4     statement.  Nevertheless, I was never given a chance to start examining

 5     the witness on this document, and I realise now that my learned friend

 6     Mr. Karnavas has something to say.

 7             MR. KARNAVAS:  If I may be of some assistance in this instance.

 8             I think perhaps some foundation was laid, but not the entire

 9     foundation which would be satisfying Mr. Scott.  I think what needs to be

10     done is for the next 10 or 15 minutes, go back a little bit and then ask

11     certain details that would then allow the linkage that you are saying --

12     that you are suggesting, Judge Antonetti.  I think Mr. Scott would be

13     satisfied with that.  I think that's what's missing here.  So rather than

14     spending the next 15 or 20 minutes discussing this, I think a series of 5

15     or 10 questions, as far as the detailing of exactly the gentleman's work,

16     what exactly he did, when, where, how, and with whom, that might be of

17     assistance and then we can move on, and I'm sure that Mr. Scott would not

18     be objecting, because these are fundamental issues to the foundation

19     which, in all due fairness to him, he's entitled to make these sort of

20     objections, although under all the circumstances, you know, they may not

21     be warranted.

22             So, in any event, I just want to make sure that we can go

23     forward, because we're just wasting time, and some of us are sitting here

24     just wondering where are we going with this.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

Page 48545

 1        Q.   Mr. Jasak, what exactly were you doing during your time with the

 2     VOS?

 3        A.   I was an adviser to the chief of the Military Intelligence

 4     Service, the VOS, at the HVO Main Staff.  My work was normally assigned

 5     to me by the chief of service.  I analysed the situation in South-Eastern

 6     Herzegovina and, more specifically, in Mostar, for the most part.

 7        Q.   I'm spending my time asking you about these questions.  What

 8     exactly do you mean when you say that you were into analysis work, that

 9     you worked as an analyst?

10        A.   What that means is that any reports coming from the field that

11     had to do with this area that I specified were analysed by me.  I would

12     then draw up a section of the report that was later dispatched by the

13     Military Intelligence Service to the recipients that I mentioned before;

14     chief of the Defence Department, chief of the Main Staff, president of

15     the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and possibly other addressees as

16     well whenever necessary.

17        Q.   Based on these reports from the ground, would you envisage what

18     the BH Army might do next?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   Tell us, were you able, based on certain information you

21     received, to gain an overview of an event and to predict further

22     developments?

23        A.   Yes, I was.

24        Q.   Tell us, were the reports made by you and your service the basis

25     on which the commander of the Main Staff made decisions?

Page 48546

 1        A.   Yes, of course they were.

 2        Q.   Based on your reports, did the chief and later the command of the

 3     Main Staff draw up his reports, for example, on work or on a current

 4     situation?

 5        A.   Yes, that is the part relating to enemy activities.

 6        Q.   Did you know General Petkovic personally?

 7        A.   Yes, I did know General Petkovic from the time before I joined

 8     the Main Staff.  Since early October to mid-July, I collaborated with

 9     General Petkovic in the Main Staff.  We worked together.

10        Q.   Were you able to form an opinion as to what sort of man he was,

11     what his priorities were, what he wanted to happen in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   General Petkovic's priority was to defend the area from the Army

13     of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   I didn't ask you that, but I asked you whether you were able to

15     get to know him as a man and as an officer.

16        A.   Absolutely, yes.  When you are working together in such a small

17     area, such a small space, and the entire Main Staff numbered some 15

18     people, of course we all knew each other well.

19        Q.   Is that the source of your knowledge about General Petkovic, on

20     the basis of which you responded to the question about the document we

21     just saw?

22        A.   Yes, the basis was my personal contacts with General Petkovic.

23        Q.   Mr. Jasak, let's look at the next document, 2D150.  This is a

24     document issued by the Personnel Department of the Defence Department.

25     The date is June 1993.  That's very important.  Let's look at the summary

Page 48547

 1     information about the national breakdown of members of the HVO.

 2             At that time, according to this document, there were

 3     16.19 per cent Muslims in the HVO.  In the 1st Brigade, there were

 4     35 per cent Muslims, in the 2nd Brigade 20, in the 3rd Brigade 13.6.  In

 5     view of the fact that this was an operative zone you were in charge of in

 6     the VOS, telling us, according to your information, is this information

 7     here correct?

 8        A.   Yes, this information is correct.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me, Ms. Alaburic.

10             Witness, I would like to insist again on foundation, because your

11     task was to gather information about the enemy, not about the HVO, was

12     it?  Did you have a double function?  Did you also gather information

13     about what went on within the HVO, what the mood was, what the relation

14     between Muslims and Croats within the HVO was, and so forth?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the information listed

16     here for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Brigade of the South-East Herzegovina

17     Operative Zone was common knowledge.  You can see here that this document

18     was dated the 9th of June.  In the 3rd Brigade, for example, it says "201

19     men."  Before that, there were many more men.  But after the 9th of May,

20     two battalions left this brigade.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  You say this is common knowledge.  Here, we have

22     very detailed figures with two figures after the comma in percentage.

23     Can I take your answer as meaning that you roughly know this, as common

24     knowledge?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be precise up to two

Page 48548

 1     decimal points, but more or less those were the figures.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my next question

 4     would have been, How do you know this?  But the witness has just said

 5     that.

 6        Q.   You said that the number of Muslims in the 3rd Brigade was much

 7     larger before the 9th of May.  What can you tell us about the 2nd

 8     Brigade?

 9        A.   This number is correct.  A smaller number left the 2nd Brigade

10     than the number that left the 3rd Brigade, so that most of the Muslims in

11     the 2nd Brigade stayed there.

12        Q.   Mr. Jasak, did the VOS and the SIS co-operate?

13        A.   As for the co-operation between the VOS and the SIS, all I know

14     is that the chiefs collaborated at their level.  But I, myself, did not

15     collaborate with anyone at mine.

16        Q.   I was asking you about the institutional level.  Did VOS

17     co-operate with the Department of the Interior and the civilian Secret

18     Service?

19        A.   At the highest levels, all the security and intelligence services

20     co-operated and exchanged information.

21        Q.   When you say that they exchanged information, does that mean that

22     you, in the VOS, had information which you did not receive directly from

23     the ground, but you received them from other security and intelligence

24     services?

25        A.   Exchange of information means that if one service finds out

Page 48549

 1     something belonging to the purview of another, that information should be

 2     forwarded to that service.  So we would get that sort of information from

 3     the other services.

 4        Q.   His Honour Judge Trechsel asked you if you, in the VOS, dealt

 5     with the enemy.  How did it come about that you had information

 6     concerning internal matters within the HVO?  You said that these things

 7     were common knowledge, but my question now is:  Did VOS have official

 8     information about this coming from other institutions in Herceg-Bosna?

 9        A.   Yes, that was possible.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I find that not quite precise.  You say "it was

11     possible."  Are you saying that VOS had knowledge of this list here or do

12     you just say it may be that it had knowledge of this list?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said "maybe," but --

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That's all I wanted to be sure

15     about.

16             And the second point.  You have talked about the exchange of

17     information, and you have said that one service, let's say SIS, would

18     inform another service, let's say VOS, if it gained information that was

19     important for VOS.  Now, this is an internal matter -- information, so

20     according to what you have told us just now, this is not something that

21     SIS would share with VOS because it was not something that entered the

22     realm of activity of VOS?  Have I understood this correctly?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not a SIS document,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That is -- I wasn't actually saying that.  But

Page 48550

 1     it could be, could it not?  Let's say, SIS would, for instance, say that

 2     in the 108th Brigade there are tensions between Muslims and Croats.  That

 3     is an information they would not forward to VOS, if I have understood you

 4     correctly.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what SIS

 6     would do in a situation of that sort.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I leave it at that.

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Jasak, if a certain number of soldiers of Muslim ethnicity

10     left the HVO and joined the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, does the fact of

11     strengthening the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina have any meaning for you in

12     VOS?

13        A.   Absolutely, yes.

14        Q.   The fact of transferring to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, does

15     this information become relevant as information on a possibly hostile

16     army?

17        A.   The information becomes relevant.

18        Q.   In the Main Staff, was there ever a meeting which you attended or

19     which was attended by your chief and then he passed the information on to

20     you?  Was there ever any discussion at any such meeting about the

21     departure of large numbers of Muslims from the HVO?

22        A.   Well, at the level of our service, there was talk about the large

23     numbers of Muslims going over to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24        Q.   I will now show you two witness statements, and I will ask you to

25     comment on them.

Page 48551

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted).  To the best of your

 4     knowledge, Stolac is the area of the 1st Brigade.  Was there really a

 5     significant percentage of Muslim soldiers in that brigade?

 6        A.   Yes, there certainly was a significant number of Muslim soldiers

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Another witness, CJ, said that he didn't know of a single example

 9     of discrimination against Muslims in the HVO in April or May 1993.

10     That's on page 10952.  Tell us, Mr. Jasak, if you know whether, according

11     to your knowledge, there were any examples of discrimination against

12     Muslims in the HVO in the operative zone you analysed.

13        A.   I had no such information or, rather, no information indicating

14     that there was any sort of discrimination.

15        Q.   Let's look at some documents now.  4D16 --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's stay with this

17     document.  I know that your field of specialty at the time was to conduct

18     analysis from documents about the BiH, and hence the question by my

19     colleague as to whether you knew anything about the JV [as interpreted].

20     I have the same question.  I have a Congolese Judge, a Swiss Judge, and a

21     fourth Judge, and I know how the other Chambers are made of.  For that

22     reason, from the document which I have here, there's one thing which I

23     find surprising, and maybe you can help me here.

24             Look at 36, the battalion of -- Convicts Battalion.  That's at

25     the very end of the document.  Had you heard about the

Page 48552

 1     Convicts Battalion?  I'm going to try and lay the foundation.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have heard about the

 3     Convicts Battalion.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are aware of that, so

 5     there will be no objections about that.  Okay.  So this document states

 6     there are 280 of them:  Croats, 164; Muslims, 116, almost 41.42 per cent.

 7     I'm just finding out that the Convicts Battalion that we talk a lot about

 8     here in this trial is almost, for half of it, made up of Muslims.  Some

 9     state that the Convicts Battalion was directly connected to Mate Boban in

10     a specific chain of command.  If this assumption is true -- I don't know

11     about that, we'll see about that at the end of the trial, but if it is

12     true, that would mean that Mate Boban had at his disposal a striking

13     power made up of 50 per cent of Muslims, a striking power that he would

14     have used in military operations against Muslims, particularly in

15     Sovici-Doljani.  So according to you, from a military standpoint, how do

16     you analyse that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question is a

18     little bit too broad.  As for the percentage here, I did not have any

19     direct contact with that unit.  I did have direct contact with the units

20     in the South-East Herzegovina Operative Zone.  I knew some commanders who

21     had been in the Convicts Battalion; for example, Zijo Orucevic , who

22     later went over to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I knew there were

23     Muslims, but I am now speaking about the men I knew who were in units in

24     the South-East Herzegovina Operative Zone.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is dated 9th of June.  It

Page 48553

 1     comes from the Department of Defence, Office of the Human Resource

 2     Administration.  6th of June.  No, sorry, 9th of June, sorry about that.

 3     So before the 30th of June, so before Muslims started leaving the HVO.

 4             As far as you know -- and if you don't know, tell us so.  As far

 5     as you know, after the 30th of June, did Muslims leave the

 6     Convicts Battalion in order to join the BiH Army?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how many

 8     Muslims from the Convicts Battalion went over to the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but here number 36 on page 1 -- well, it doesn't say

10     that, it doesn't contain the information for this unit, so I don't know

11     what the situation was.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So you don't know

13     exactly what the situation was.  Thank you very much.  You've answered my

14     question.

15             You may proceed.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to stay another moment with this

17     table.  It lists also high-level units, perhaps within quotes:  The

18     Department of Defence, 3.6 per cent; Main Staff, 1.5 per cent;

19     Posavina Command, 15; JIH Command, 8.88; Command of Central Bosnia, 1.12;

20     Command of the Operation Zone SZH, 0.00.

21             Now, you have affirmed that there was no discrimination against

22     Muslims.  It is -- however, it appears that in the higher units, Muslims

23     are in very small number, much smaller than on the top level.  Wouldn't

24     that sort of suggest that perhaps in the area of promotions and calling

25     for higher command, Croats are clearly preferred in comparison to

Page 48554

 1     Muslims?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to the best of my

 3     knowledge, I have no knowledge of any kind of discrimination.  Promotions

 4     depended on ability shown on the ground.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you were

 7     standing up.

 8             MR. KRUGER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

 9             I just want to make a point for the record, Your Honour.

10             On transcript page 20, from line 17, there was a reference to a

11     pseudonym witness.  It's the first pseudonym witness that was referred

12     to, and in the transcript reference, and I just need to point out that

13     these pages were in private session, Your Honour, with this testimony, so

14     that may require redaction.

15             Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

17     look into it with the Legal Officer.

18             You may proceed, Ms. Alaburic.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Jasak, let's look at 4D1633.  As we can see, this is issued

21     by the commander of the 2nd Brigade on the 16th of July, 1993, and it's

22     his approval for the de-mobilisation of a soldier.  Judging by his name,

23     this was a Muslim, and he was being de-mobilised at his own request.  It

24     says that he returned the equipment he had been issued with and his

25     military identity card and weapons.

Page 48555

 1             Did you know anything about the procedure for demobilisation,

 2     sir?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Does this document show in what way a soldier was de-mobilised on

 5     personal request?

 6        A.   Regardless of the name of the soldier, this document shows the

 7     procedure whereby any soldier of the HVO might be demobilised.

 8        Q.   The brigade in question here is the 2nd Brigade, Mr. Jasak.  Did

 9     you know that a certain number of soldiers of Muslim ethnicity left the

10     2nd Brigade and asked to be demobilised?

11        A.   I did know there were such requests after the 9th of May.

12        Q.   The next document is 4D1223.  It was issued by the commander of

13     the 2nd Brigade of the HVO.  It's dated the 18th of June, 1993.  It's a

14     proposal for demobilisation of 25 soldiers.  Judging by their names, they

15     were Muslims.  And the reason is:  Failure to turn up in their unit from

16     the 9th of May, 1993.

17             Mr. Jasak, did know that some soldiers of Muslim ethnicity simply

18     failed to show up in their units after the 9th of May?

19        A.   Yes, I did know of that.  Such soldiers were then demobilised, so

20     they were no longer members of those units.

21        Q.   From this document, it follows that the brigade commander

22     submitted the proposal for demobilisation.  Was this the rule?

23        A.   The rule was that commanders of battalions should submit their

24     proposals to the brigade commander, and the brigade commander would

25     forward these to the South-East Herzegovina Operative Zone.

Page 48556

 1        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 4D1224.  Again, it's issued by

 2     the commander of the 2nd Brigade, and he's proposing the demobilisation

 3     of 41 soldiers because they had not turned up in their units from the 9th

 4     of May, 1993, onwards.  So does this show the same situation we've just

 5     been talking about?

 6        A.   Yes, this document confirms what we just said.  This is another

 7     battalion of the same brigade.

 8        Q.   You told us that the brigade commander forwarded the proposals to

 9     the command of the operative zone.  Judging by the stamp here, to whom

10     was this proposal sent?

11        A.   It says that this was received in the Operations Zone of

12     South-East Herzegovina on the 18th of June, 1993, on the same day it was

13     written.

14        Q.   So it was forwarded in the manner you described?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The next document is 4D1639.  And this is consent from the

17     commander of the 2nd Brigade for the demobilisation of soldiers, at their

18     personal request.  Judging by the name of the soldier, he was a Muslim.

19     The consent was issued on the 22nd of June, 1993.  Mr. Jasak, did you

20     know that in June, in the Operations Zone of South-East Herzegovina,

21     Muslim soldiers were leaving their units following the proper procedure

22     and being demobilised?

23        A.   Yes, I did have such information.

24        Q.   From the stamp showing receipt of the documents, it follows that

25     this was forwarded to the Operations Zone of South-East Herzegovina.  Is

Page 48557

 1     that the proper procedure, to the best of your knowledge?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, that was precisely the proper procedure.

 3        Q.   Another document about this, 4D1634, the 2nd Brigade commander's

 4     consent to demobilise for personal reasons.  Judging by the name, this

 5     soldier was an ethnic Muslim.  Tell us, please, who this consent was

 6     addressed to.

 7        A.   This consent by the brigade commander was sent to the Eastern

 8     Herzegovina Operations Zone.

 9        Q.   If we look at the left-hand bottom side of the document, who this

10     was addressed to, the section for structure and personnel, was this the

11     section that was then supposed to complete the demobilisation procedure?

12        A.   Yes, it was down to them, and they were supposed to work with the

13     defence office on this.

14        Q.   Mr. Jasak, when you were with the HVO, which country did you

15     believe you were defending?

16        A.   As a soldier of the HVO, I believed I was defending Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina.

18        Q.   Did you believe yourself to be a member of the armed forces of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a country, as a state?

20        A.   Most certainly.

21        Q.   P274 is our next document.  This is a decision by the Presidency

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina to declare a state of war.  Mr. Jasak, did you have

23     any information indicating that the BH Presidency had declared a state of

24     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Yes, I knew that.

Page 48558

 1        Q.   Let us have a look together at how they define the aggressor.

 2     Based on paragraph 1 of this decision, who appears to be the aggressor,

 3     or the enemy, if you like?

 4        A.   An act of aggression was carried out by the Republic of

 5     Serbia-Montenegro, the Yugoslav Army, and the terrorist of the Serbian

 6     Democratic Party.

 7        Q.   Can you look at the second-to-last bullet, please, saying that

 8     the aggressor has occupied over 70 per cent of the territory of the state

 9     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the aggressor is refusing to halt their

10     aggression.  I want to know about how this 70 per cent breaks down.

11     Mr. Jasak, if the aggressor, indeed, occupied 70 per cent of the

12     territory, how much of the BH territory remained free?

13        A.   30 per cent.

14        Q.   This decision was issued on the 20th of June, 1992.  At the time,

15     was part of the BH territory under the control of the HVO Army?

16        A.   Yes, that's right, a considerable portion of the free territory

17     was HVO controlled.  We are looking at 30 per cent free territory.  The

18     HVO was holding about 70 per cent of that territory, meaning about

19     21 per cent of the overall BH territory.

20        Q.   Mr. Jasak, let's assume you're an analyst working with an

21     intelligence service.  If you were to analyse this document in that

22     official capacity, what could you tell us?  What is the position of the

23     BH Presidency concerning the territory being held by the HVO?  Is that

24     considered to be occupied territory or free territory of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina?

Page 48559

 1        A.   Beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is considered free territory of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Next document, please.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there are two

 5     important questions that I must put to you from this document.  Now, to

 6     lay the foundation, I will put a very simple question to you.

 7             First, you know how to read?  Can you read?  I know it sounds

 8     stupid, but it's important.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, you can read.  When

11     you read something, do you understand what you read?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You understand what

14     you read.  Now, take a look at number 2.  It says:

15             "The proclamation of the state of war aims at, based on the

16     individual and collective right of citizens to self-defence..."

17             This is written black and white.  This is written by

18     Mr. Izetbegovic on June 20th, 1992.  Let's mentally go back to the region

19     of Sarajevo at the time.  We know that the BH Army is not yet set up as

20     an army, so when saying this, does this mean that Mr. Izetbegovic is

21     asking all citizens, whoever they may be, to defend themselves, either

22     individually or collectively?  Is this what this sentence means?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, that's what it

24     says, and this applies to all citizens.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As far as you're

Page 48560

 1     concerned now, could you tell us that this is why Croat citizens believed

 2     that it was their duty to join the HVO, just like Muslim citizens

 3     believed that it was also their duty to join the HVO?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's right.  Each

 5     citizen who wished to defend against the aggressor joined the HVO.  The

 6     HVO was established before the 20th of June, 1992.  It was, in fact,

 7     established in April of that year.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please read

 9     number 3 in your own language.  Could you tell us what is written under

10     number 3?  Could you please read it out loud so that the interpreters can

11     interpret what you are saying?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The armed forces of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina are hereby authorised to take necessary measures to organise

14     a general national resistance in order to reach such goals as have been

15     set."

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I asked you to read

17     this out loud in your own language for a simple reason, because I see

18     that there is a plural being used, "the armed forces," plural.  It's not

19     "the Army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  What is written here

20     is "the armed forces," plural.  Why is there a plural?  Could you tell us

21     what this plural means, as far as you're concerned?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what that means to me

23     is the BH Army and the HVO.

24             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If I may.  Witness, what is the singular of "the

25     armed forces"?  If there is just one army in a country, how are they

Page 48561

 1     called?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Oruzana snaga" or a particular

 3     army would simply be named.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  I should not have asked you the

 5     question, because it's a linguistic one.  I think that in English, "the

 6     armed forces" are the army.  The army is referred to as "armed forces"

 7     because usually it has terrestrial and others, but I stand to be

 8     corrected.

 9             MR. STEWART:  Well, I, with respect, I believe I would correct

10     you, Your Honour.  "The armed forces" we would understand to be the army,

11     the navy, the air force.  The air force is a force.  Certainly, I --

12     that's what I've -- I've never been in any of them, but --

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That's exactly what I was saying.

14             MR. STEWART:  Yes.

15             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That's exactly what I was saying.  But it does

16     not -- "armed forces" does not mean that they are really entities under a

17     different top head.

18             MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, I'm not an expert.  I'm just a

19     true-born Englishman.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Okay.  I think I -- best to drop this

21     altogether.

22             Mr. Prlic, as a linguistic expert in English --

23             THE ACCUSED PRLIC:  This is simply grammatic.  And on the part

24     which Judge Prandler [sic] started, if you compare translation from

25     Croatian to English, in Croatian language word "armed forces" is written

Page 48562

 1     with not capital letters, it was written with small letters, which means

 2     that it is not just one armed force.  If you look at the English version,

 3     a sentence started "The armed forces," and I think this is the reason why

 4     Judge Trechsel, if I may say, put this question, because this is

 5     absolutely plural.  "Armed forces" in Croat language, it is not capital.

 6     If it is capital letter, it means that this is going to be one army.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you very much.  That is -- I think when

 8     you first spoke of Judge Prandler, perhaps you also meant me, whose name

 9     is Trechsel, as you know.

10             THE ACCUSED PRLIC:  Excuse me.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That's okay.  I think it was really a linguistic

12     intermezzo, and I don't think there are any consequences to be drawn from

13     this.

14             MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, go ahead.

16             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that we have another

17     linguistic problem there.  The interpretation at page 30, line 3.

18     Paragraph 3, as interpreted, and the witness read it out carefully, the

19     original, and I'll re-read this, runs as follows:

20             "The armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina are hereby authorised

21     to take necessary measures ..."

22             This verb, "prevzeti," that's how the Croatian reads, which has

23     been translated as "to take necessary measures," and that wouldn't quite

24     be it, because "prevzeti" means take over from someone; in other words,

25     something already exists and that is now meant to be taken over by

Page 48563

 1     someone else.  Nevertheless, I can't be categorical about this.  That's

 2     why I called it a linguistic problem to begin with.

 3             Are we talking about Serbian or Croatian?  In Serbian, it could

 4     possibly mean this, but at any rate, this term, "prevzeti" in my opinion

 5     implies that they are supposed to take over something, take over an

 6     existing defence or something, but not necessarily, as I said.  This is a

 7     problem that we have with Serbian as opposed to Croatian.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, let's not spend too

 9     much time on these linguistic problems, but I believe there are two

10     interpretations:  Either the force armies are made up of the BH Army and

11     the HVO, which is what you told us, or they are made up of the navy, the

12     air force, and land forces, the army.  Now, at the time in June 1992, the

13     Republic of -- could you tell us whether the Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina had a navy and an air force?  Did they?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, they had maybe one or

16     two helicopters but nothing that you could refer to as an air force.  And

17     the same applied to the HVO, they were land forces, for the most part.

18     The BH Army and the HVO, the two components of the Armed Forces of Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Ms. Alaburic.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] The next document, P339, the

23     agreement on friendship and co-operation.  On the 1st [as interpreted] of

24     July, 1992, the agreement was signed by Franjo Tudjman and

25     Alija Izetbegovic in Zagreb.  Could we please focus on paragraph 6 of

Page 48564

 1     this agreement.  I quote:

 2             "The armed component of the HVO is an integral component of the

 3     armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 4             Let's stop right there.  They say that I should correct the date.

 5     The 21st of July, and not the 1st of July, as recorded.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jasak, since we have now assured ourselves that you can read,

 7     you're able to read this, you worked as an analyst, what is your

 8     interpretation of this sentence?  What is the relationship between the

 9     HVO and the BH Army?

10        A.   This clearly shows that the armed component of the HVO is a

11     component of the joint armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina, on an equal footing with the BH Army.

13        Q.   What was your personal view at the time in mid-1992, say, on this

14     subject?

15        A.   The same as here, the way it's written here.  The HVO was a

16     component of the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Mr. Jasak, do you have any information indicating that anyone at

18     any point in time tried to abolish the HVO Army?

19        A.   No, I have no information indicating anything like that.

20        Q.   Next document, please, P476, a decision by the

21     Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The date is the 14th of

22     September, 1992.

23             Mr. Jasak, I will not be asking you any legal questions about

24     this document.  Nevertheless, please have a look.  There is a total of

25     nine paragraphs contained in this decision, and a number of legal

Page 48565

 1     documents are abolished or declared null and void.  Does the list include

 2     the decision to establish the HVO?

 3        A.   No, that is not one of the documents that were quashed by the

 4     Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Next document, P151.  Can you tell us what this document is

 6     about, Mr. Jasak?

 7        A.   It's this is a decision to establish the HVO.

 8        Q.   Was the army known as the HVO, in fact, established based on this

 9     decision?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Do you have any knowledge indicating that anyone at any time

12     overturned, abolished, or declared this decision null and void?

13        A.   No, no knowledge of that at all.

14        Q.   Next document, 4D410, a decree on the Armed Forces of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina -- on the Armed Forces of the Republic of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We have here a copy that was published in the

17     "Official Gazette" of the BH Army.  Paragraph or Article 1 reads:

18             "The republic's armed forces shall comprise the Croatian Defence

19     Council."

20             Mr. Jasak, would this document seem to confirm or deny that the

21     HVO was, indeed, a component of the Armed Forces of the Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   This document clearly confirms that the HVO was a component of

24     the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Next document, 4D --

Page 48566

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, earlier I asked you a

 2     question on the plural, and we had a debate on -- a semantic debate on --

 3     between some of us in this courtroom, but I didn't have this decree at

 4     hand.  This is a decree written by Mr. Izetbegovic, himself.  It's not a

 5     decree written by the HVO.  This was written by the president of the

 6     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on August 6th, 1992.

 7             In Article 1, we see that there is a plural used again, and we

 8     see that there is mention of the BH Army and the HVO.  What's your take

 9     on this?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  Bosnia

11     and Herzegovina has two armies, the armed forces, as it reads, comprising

12     two components, the BH Army and the HVO.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know you're not a legal

14     expert and you were an analyst within the VOS, which is why I asked you

15     if you can read, write, and understand a sentence.  Anyone, you know,

16     with a high school degree, and I'm not talking about a faculty professor

17     or anything, but anyone who can read and write, when they see that it's

18     written, black and white, that the HVO is part of the Armed Forces of the

19     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, does this mean that there are two

20     components to the army; the BH Army, on the one hand, and the HVO, on the

21     other hand?  I mean, I believe any child could answer this question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, two

23     components of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, one being the

24     BH Army, the other being the HVO.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Would you agree

Page 48567

 1     with me to note that this document was not written by the HVO, but by

 2     Mr. Izetbegovic, himself?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was

 4     signed by the president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, not the HVO.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, still on this document and this fact,

 8     were there one or two commands of the two armies?  You've said there were

 9     two armies.  Did each army have its own command; do you know?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do know that.  Each

11     of the armies had its own command.  Nevertheless, there was an attempt --

12     a lasting attempt throughout to create a single command.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  If you look at the decree, Article 1, there is a

14     part then that is in inverted commas.  And in the second part, does it

15     not say that the HVO places themselves, both parties -- both parts of the

16     army place themselves under the single command of the army?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, which portion of the

18     document are you referring to exactly; Article 1?

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, as I have indicated, Article 1, which has

20     two parts, one which is a small three-line text without quotation marks,

21     and then there come quotation marks, and then there are three

22     subparagraphs, and I'm talking about the second one.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says here "the

24     army."  Nevertheless, if you look at the title, itself, "Decree Law on

25     Amendments to the Decree Law on the Armed Forces of the Republic of

Page 48568

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina," I see the HVO - and that was the case years ago as

 2     well - as a component of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  But I asked you a different question.  I asked

 5     you about the single command.  Did you see that, that there should be a

 6     single command, and who has the single command?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the single command was

 8     supposed to comprise the BH Army and the HVO.  Nevertheless, at the time

 9     this was produced, both components were still being organised.  Attempts

10     had been made earlier to set up a single command at the highest level.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Please proceed, Ms. Alaburic.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, if I

13     may, we shall be dealing with this at quite some length in our briefs.

14     We believe that this is a question of legal interpretation.  This

15     section, the sentence saying "being placed under the single command of

16     the army," it's about the position of the comma in that sentence, and the

17     question is whether that applies to other armed units, too, in additional

18     to the HVO, but we'll be shedding more light on that matter further down

19     the road.

20             The next document is --

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sure you will, Ms. Alaburic, but I have not

22     taken this document before this witness, who apparently has a bit

23     difficulties in reading a legal document, so you will definitely discuss

24     this at length.  I'm interested and looking forward to reading you.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, if I

Page 48569

 1     may explain one thing which I believe is very important.

 2             I asked this witness questions about this document in much the

 3     same way as Judge Antonetti phrased his question.  This witness holds a

 4     degree in engineering.  I'm not expecting from this witness any

 5     sophisticated legal interpretations in terms of whether a comma should be

 6     there or elsewhere, in terms of whether a particular section or a

 7     particular sentence refers to the HVO or someone else as well.  All I

 8     wish to raise with this witness is issues regarding the relationship

 9     between the HVO and the BH Army within the Armed Forces of the Republic

10     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11             The next document is 4D1524.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I think we'll probably have a break.

13             I just want to say no need to explain or justify.  It's perfectly

14     all right, what you did.  I was just trying to explain why I went into

15     this and that I did not have the idea to take up such questions with this

16     witness originally.  But I think probably it's time for the break.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's almost 10 to 4.00.

18     We're going to take a 20-minute break.

19                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, you may proceed.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The next document, Mr. Jasak, is 4D1524.  This is a letter

24     containing information sent by Sefer Halilovic to the Main HVO Staff in

25     Grudica [as interpreted] on the 8th of August, 1992.  In item 1, I'm

Page 48570

 1     interested in only the following part.  It says that something is not

 2     favourable to the Army of Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which also

 3     comprises the armed formations of the HVO, and it's not to the advantage

 4     of the Croatian people either.  So how would you comment on this,

 5     Witness?

 6        A.   This can only be interpreted as follows:  The armed formations of

 7     the HVO are an integral part of the Armed Forces of the Republic of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 1D14 -- 2432.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 2432.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is an order issued by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     signed by President Alija Izetbegovic on the 16th of October, 1992.  Item

14     1 reads as follows:

15             "The Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina (the Army of BH and the

16     HVO) ..."

17             Tell us, Mr. Jasak, had this document reached your intelligence

18     service, what would you have said?  What was the standpoint of the

19     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina in October 1992 as to the component

20     parts of the Armed Forces of BH?

21        A.   Well, this is common knowledge.  The Armed Forces of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina had two components, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

23     the HVO.

24        Q.   The next document, 2D1470.  2D470, correction.  This is an

25     agreement reached in Zenica on the 20th of April, 1993, by

Page 48571

 1     Sefer Halilovic and Milivoj Petkovic, who signed the document.  In item 1

 2     of this document, it says:

 3             "The BH Army and the HVO are legal military forces of the

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and are treated equally."

 5             Had this document reached your intelligence service, what would

 6     you have said about the equality of the Army of BH and the HVO in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   It clearly follows from this document that the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO are legal military forces of the Republic

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that they are treated equally, that they have the

11     same rights and the same obligations.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Sorry, Your Honours, but I was hoping we were moving

13     on to something else, but I'll have to go back to where we were before.

14             What additional value is this witness adding to the document?

15     There's been periods in the case where we've simply had the document --

16     the witness reading documents.  I think we can all agree that if I read

17     the words on the page, that is what they say, and we can all read that

18     and it says whatever it says.  But what additional value has this --

19     evidentiary value has this witness added to that, other than to say

20     that's what the document says?

21             Before the break, there was a number of interventions and

22     comments by both the Judges and others that the man's not a lawyer.  He

23     might have been an analyst.  I don't recall him being qualified as a

24     constitutional lawyer.  In fact, I don't recall him being qualified as an

25     expert on anything.

Page 48572

 1             Your Honour, let me make the Prosecution point abundantly

 2     transparent, if it's not already.  There's two fundamental problems with

 3     this witness.  One, he's been brought to address a number of things that

 4     he has no foundation to address.  He was a lower-level analyst at the

 5     time, and yet they want to make him an all-purpose -- know-everything

 6     witness, number 1, without foundation, number 1.  Number 2, they want to

 7     use him as an expert.  We didn't get an expert report.  There is

 8     nothing -- he's not being tendered to qualify as an expert, and yet they

 9     want him to address -- now we're talking about an expert on legal

10     matters.  He just said, Undoubtedly shows it's a legal organisation, a

11     legal part of the armed forces.  That is purely and simply a legal

12     conclusion.  It cannot be characterised any other way.

13             Now, that's the problem with this witness.  He's being addressed,

14     talked about, asked about things he has no foundation to address, and

15     they want to use him as an expert without complying with the rules on an

16     expert.  If they want to make him an expert under Rule 94, they could

17     have tendered him as such, they could have given us a report just as

18     Mr. Tomljanovich and others, and we could have treated him as an expert,

19     but they haven't done that.  And those are two of the fundamental

20     problems with this witness and why the Prosecution, in this instance --

21     why I have been on my feet so much.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, do you still want

23     to answer to this?  If not, I'd like to ask the witness a question.

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think there's no

25     need to respond to the objection raised by my learned friend Mr. Scott.

Page 48573

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have looked at a

 2     number of documents from various sources, BH Army, the HVO,

 3     Alija Izetbegovic, including the international community, and including

 4     the international community that was shown in the last document.  As we

 5     read the documents, if you're a reasonable Judge, you may reach the

 6     conclusion that there were two armies, HVO and the BH Army, that there

 7     could be one single command, and that these two armies, as is stated in

 8     the last document signed by the international community, by its two high

 9     representatives, recognised that these two armies were to be treated on

10     an equal footing, treated equally.

11             So you've heard the Prosecutor, but it's the Prosecutor who

12     intervened.  What's the connection between you and these documents?

13     According to you, were you in a legal army or were you in an army which

14     was illegal?  That's the basic question, really, that I'm asking you.

15     What's your answer on this?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17             I was a member of a legal army which was one of the components of

18     the Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was the HVO.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  You heard the

20     Prosecutor.  He said you're not a legal expert, you're not a lawyer.  How

21     can you say that you were in a legal army, I mean, from your point of

22     view?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An army fighting for

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a whole, against an aggressor can only be legal.

25     It cannot be anything else.  That was the basis.

Page 48574

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understand you

 2     correctly, you had the strong conviction that you belonged to an army

 3     from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or did you belong to an army of

 4     this entity, Herceg-Bosna, the HVO community -- the Croat Defence

 5     Community, the Republic of Herceg-Bosna?  I mean, what was the entity

 6     which was in your -- for which there was -- referring to?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I belonged -- Your Honour, I

 8     belonged to the HVO, which was fighting for a united, unitary

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, so it was part of the Armed Forces of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for your

12     question.  You really realised what I was getting at.

13             I just want to correct the transcript to avoid problems.

14        Q.   When you say you were fighting for Bosnia-Herzegovina, tell us,

15     what sort of Bosnia-Herzegovina were you fighting for?  What did you say?

16        A.   For Bosnia-Herzegovina, a republic which is unitary, which is

17     whole, which is the republic of all its citizens.  So we were fighting

18     only against the aggressor.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I'm not a legal expert.  I'm

20     afraid the word "unitary" might refer to unitarism.  Is it all right?

21     No, my colleague is saying the interpretation is not good, that it's not

22     good to say "unitary" for the word "jedinstven."  "Jedinstven" should

23     mean territorial [realtime transcript read in error "military"]

24     integrity, because unitarism is an issue of internal organisation.  The

25     witness did not say he was fighting for a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 48575

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Now it says that "Jedinstven."

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Judge Trechsel, please.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  "Jedinstven" should mean military unity, but you

 4     said "territorial unity," I think.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] It's wrongly recorded.  I did not

 6     say "military unity."  I said "territorial integrity."

 7             "Territorially," single, means territorial integrity.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A whole Bosnia-Herzegovina, within

 9     its borders, the borders of AVNOJ.

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] We now have a problem, because

11     part of the witness's answer is recorded as if I was the speaker.

12        Q.   Could you please repeat what you said, Witness?

13        A.   Bosnia-Herzegovina, in its entirety within the borders of AVNOJ.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I think now it's

15     precise.

16             Your Honour Judge Antonetti, thank you for your questions about

17     this document.  My intention was to establish the mens rea, which is why

18     I am using this document.

19             Document P2078, 2078.  This is a joint statement which, on the

20     25th of April, 1993, was signed in Zagreb by Mate Boban and

21     Alija Izetbegovic, and co-signed by Dr. Franjo Tudjman.

22        Q.   Mr. Jasak, let us try to analyse not as lawyers, but as you would

23     have analysed this document in the Intelligence Service.  It says:

24             "The co-signatories of this statement call upon all the members

25     of the armed forces to respect all the agreements reached to date between

Page 48576

 1     the representatives of the Muslim and Croatian people in the Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 3             And they now refer to the previous order, and we can see that

 4     from the content of the agreement in Zenica in April 1993.

 5             My question, Mr. Jasak, is as follows:  Who signed these military

 6     [as interpreted] agreements as the representative of the Croatian people?

 7        A.   The representative of the Croatian people who signed this

 8     agreement was Mate Boban.

 9             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but again we have

10     an error in the transcript.  Page 45, line 9, I think my colleague did

11     not say "military agreements," she just spoke about agreements.

12             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Correct, I spoke about agreements,

13     and I said -- so I was referring to all the agreements signed up to that

14     point, all the previous agreements.  And when referring to the

15     agreement --

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry, Ms. Alaburic, I don't think that's

17     proper.  "All the previous agreements"?  Which agreements?  Was the

18     witness shown these agreements, is he aware of them?  I find this really

19     too vague, "all previous agreements ."

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please look at the

21     next sentence.  I really don't have time to read every sentence from all

22     these old documents.  I've been through all these sentences with the

23     witness.  But if you look at the continuation of the sentence, you can

24     see that the Army of BH and the HVO are equally legal units.  And if we

25     recall the previous document we looked at, or, rather, a document we

Page 48577

 1     looked at previously, and that's 2D470, a careful analyst, looking at the

 2     legal and intelligence aspects of this, there's no problem in referring

 3     to this agreement as well as all previous agreements.

 4             What I'm interested in right now is defining all these agreements

 5     as agreements between the Croatian and Muslim peoples.

 6        Q.   So the previous agreement, the one from Zenica, was signed by

 7     Petkovic and Halilovic?  Who signed on behalf of the Croatian people?

 8        A.   Milivoj Petkovic, the chief of the Main Staff of the HVO, signed

 9     on behalf of the Croatian people.

10        Q.   And who is the signatory on behalf of the Muslim people?

11        A.   On behalf of the Muslim people, the signatory is the chief of the

12     Staff of the Supreme Command of the Army of BH, Sefer Halilovic.

13        Q.   If you were to analyse this paragraph as an intelligence officer,

14     how would you define Mate Boban's and Alija Izetbegovic's positions?  On

15     whose behalf were they signing an agreement?

16        A.   This shows that Mate Boban was signing this on behalf of the

17     Croats and Alija Izetbegovic on behalf of the Muslims.

18        Q.   Next document, P20 --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is a document

20     which comes from the accusation, the number -- I mean, it comes from the

21     Office of the Prosecutor, itself.  This is an important document, a

22     document from the accusation, a document that we have seen on numerous

23     occasions already.

24             Witness, this document states that there was first, before that,

25     on the 3rd of March, 1993, in New York - you were not there, you could

Page 48578

 1     not know - that there was an agreement that was signed between

 2     Izetbegovic, Halilovic, Boban, and Akmadzic, and six members, the names

 3     of whom were quoted, were to co-ordinate and prepare for something.  On

 4     the 24th of April, with the presence of the international community,

 5     represented by its very best representatives, by the elite, Lord Owen,

 6     Ambassador Peter Hall, Mr. Okun, whom we met here.  So all of the

 7     Croatian elite and the elite from Bosnia-Herzegovina, the ambassador in

 8     Zagreb, were present, attended.  So a document was signed by the three

 9     highest political representatives, Mate Boban, Tudjman, and Izetbegovic.

10             So I see this document -- well, unless I don't understand

11     anything, but I'm reading what I see, and I see that there are two

12     armies, the BH Army and the HVO, that there are conflicts, and so it is

13     requested that these conflicts be ended immediately.  It is requested

14     also that there be an agreement about the legality of both armies and

15     about the establishment of a joint command, all this with the agreement

16     of the international community.

17             And Appendix 1 now, which was not presented to you by

18     Ms. Alaburic, but which is appended, Annex 1 shows, and this is written

19     black on white - I'm not making it up, I'm just reading what I see - that

20     the BH Army and the HVO are two separate entities in their command

21     structures, that these two identities are in charge of personnel,

22     logistics, administration, training, morale, and identity matters; that

23     there must be a joint command for an operational control of the military

24     districts, and that this joint command will consist of General Halilovic

25     and General Petkovic, who is here sitting in this courtroom.  And,

Page 48579

 1     actually, I will also ask him questions when he's on the witness stand.

 2             So, Mr. Witness, did you -- at your level at the time, and we're

 3     in the month of April, were you aware that there had been an agreement

 4     between all of these personalities and that this agreement was about a

 5     joint command which was to be made both by Halilovic and Petkovic?  Were

 6     you aware of that, yes or no?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, so you were aware of

 9     it.  And how did you know about it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the time I was with

11     the Main Staff of the HVO.  I learned this from the chief of the Military

12     Intelligence Service, who told me that he had been informed about this by

13     General Petkovic.  This was said at one of our meetings within the

14     Military Intelligence Service, and everyone present was told about this.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  And did you know

16     that this agreement had been endorsed, sponsored, under the aegis of the

17     international community?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in relation to this

19     agreement, it was something that we knew about, just as we knew about all

20     the other high-level agreements that were reached under the auspices of

21     the international community.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  So this agreement

23     includes a parameter which was not mentioned.  The signatories agreed to

24     say that there may have been infringements of rights about the civilian

25     population and that possibly there were crimes which were committed, and

Page 48580

 1     that while in order for these crimes to be established, an international

 2     commission -- an independent special commission must be established which

 3     will define the facts.

 4             Did you know that Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Boban, Mr. Tudjman, had

 5     agreed for such a commission to look into the crimes which may have been

 6     perpetrated by the various parties?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't know about

 8     that.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right, so you did not know

10     about that.  That's what I wanted to know, because, you know, that refers

11     to part of the document.

12             Okay, Ms. Alaburic, you may proceed.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would also like to put a question to you with

14     regard to this document.

15             In the first part of it, that is, written in italics and large

16     font, number 3, the second sentence runs like this:

17             "In particular, they," that is, the signatories, "urge military

18     units of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and of the Croatian Defence

19     Council to immediately start implementing the agreement on the legality

20     of both the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO ..."

21             I'm not interested in what comes afterwards.  But I would like

22     you to tell me, if you have any view on this, what is meant by

23     implementing the agreement on the legality of these two armies?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what that means is

25     that the BH Army and the HVO were equally legal and that they were to set

Page 48581

 1     up a joint command.  Following this -- or, rather, pursuant to this

 2     addendum number 1, steps were taken to achieve this.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm not interested in the amendment.  Thank you

 4     for the answer.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I do not share this

 6     point of view, and I must say something.  In the English text, there's

 7     the word "and," which clearly connects the question of legality to the

 8     command -- to the Joint Command.  I mean, it's written here in the

 9     English text, and this refers to Annex 1.  So Annex 1, from my point of

10     view, and I may be wrong on this - I do not know everything - Annex 1

11     complements the question about the Joint Command, and the legality seems

12     to be connected to the two armies.  So what do you think about this?

13     You're not a legal expert, you may not be able to read an international

14     agreement, but in your mind is there a connection between this

15     Joint Command and these two armies?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a connection.

17     One must establish a joint command for these two armies.  They exist as

18     such, and now both are to be placed under a joint command.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may say, this

20     was not interpreted correctly, which has not been a problem so far, but I

21     do have to say it now, or, rather, translate it.  In Croatian, this reads

22     "for them to start the implementation of the provisions of this agreement

23     to the effect that the BH Army and the HVO are equally legal."  The

24     Croatian text does not state the same thing as interpreted or translated.

25     An agreement on legality, that is not mentioned anywhere.  You've all

Page 48582

 1     learned enough B/C/S to notice that yourselves, I'm sure.  This sentence

 2     describes the substance of the agreement.

 3             If we look at 2D470, which is the document that we were looking

 4     at before, the Petkovic-Halilovic agreement from Zenica reached on the

 5     20th of April, 1993, the agreement has no title, as such.  And Article 1

 6     says that the BH Army and the HVO are legal armed forces of the Republic

 7     of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that they are to receive the same

 8     treatment.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

10     continues]... testify, so she made a comment, but it would have more

11     weight if it came from you.

12             In your language, could you please read paragraph 3, because when

13     they signed this document, it was almost 1.00 a.m., and I presume that

14     Mr. Tudjman, Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Boban did not know -- or did not

15     know English well, that they have signed the document in their own

16     language, which they read and understand, and that they trusted the

17     translators, the English-speaking translators who were there, who made

18     the text in English, and it's important to point out that it's the

19     Croatian version which is binding.  That being said, the three

20     politicians also signed the English text, but it does say that the

21     Croatian text applies.

22             So, of course, you know this language very well, and thanks to

23     the help of our interpreters, we're going to hear the translation.  Can

24     you please read paragraph 3 in your language?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

Page 48583

 1             "Co-signatories.  The co-signatories of this joint statement call

 2     on all commanders and units of the BH Army and the HVO to unconditionally

 3     comply with all of the agreements so far reached between the

 4     representatives of the Croatian and Muslim peoples in the Republic of

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 6             In particular, they call on the military units of the BH Army and

 7     the HVO to start implementing, without any further delay, the provisions

 8     of the agreement on the fact that the BH Army and the HVO are equally

 9     legal units, and on the establishment of a joint command of these forces

10     comprising representatives of both staffs, in parentheses "(Annex 1)."

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I must

12     say that in the French translation I heard, it was very clear, that the

13     fact that the BH Army and the HVO are legal entities.  This is absolutely

14     obvious in the interpretation I received from the French booth.

15     Therefore, the ambiguity in the English translation seems to create doubt

16     as to the legality, whereas in the French I received, there is no

17     ambiguity.  These two armies are legal, both of them.

18             I believe it was important that you should read this text in your

19     own language so that it could be interpreted by our interpreters, who are

20     extremely experienced and very knowledgeable.  Thank you.

21             Ms. Alaburic.

22             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Jasak, you were answering questions by Judge Antonetti about

24     this annex, P2091.  You said that you heard about the substance of these

25     agreements from your boss, the VOS chief; right?

Page 48584

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   During your time with the VOS, did you ever hold briefings or

 3     meetings?

 4        A.   Yes, on a regular basis, every day.

 5        Q.   Would your chief normally inform you of any information received

 6     elsewhere, at other meetings or in a different way, pertaining to

 7     anything that the service was in charge of?

 8        A.   He informed us regularly about everything he believed was

 9     required for our work.

10        Q.   Did the VOS chief ever meet the chief of the Main Staff?

11        A.   They met on a regular basis and whenever required.

12        Q.   Do you have any information indicating that the chief of the

13     Main Staff sometimes informed the VOS chief of any information that he

14     had obtained at other meetings, or conferences, or something that he had

15     gleaned from reports from the field and that he believed was relevant?

16        A.   Whatever was pertinent to the work of our service and the work of

17     the Main Staff was exchanged and forwarded.  To all practical intents,

18     the VOS chief's office and the chief of the Main Staff's office were two

19     adjacent rooms with a door connecting them.

20        Q.   Where was your room?

21        A.   My room was right next to the VOS chief's room, with a connecting

22     door.

23        Q.   His Honour Judge Antonetti asked you everything about P2091.  In

24     view of that, I will only have a brief question.

25             These two armies, the chiefs of staff of these two armies, the

Page 48585

 1     commanders agreed that the HVO and the BH Army would keep their own

 2     separate identities and commands.  Nevertheless, they would be setting up

 3     a joint command, too.  Based on your information, did the HVO, in fact,

 4     continue to function as an independent, separate unit and entity?

 5        A.   Yes, indeed it did.

 6        Q.   We'll be looking at a document now, a document that's been much

 7     discussed in this courtroom, 4D1611.  This is an order dated the 14th of

 8     June, 1993, signed by president of the BH Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic,

 9     and addressed to both the BH Army and the HVO.  This is on a memorandum

10     of the HVO.

11             Mr. Jasak, can you please try and explain, as long as you know

12     about how the mail circulated about the Main Staff, how this could

13     possibly happen?

14        A.   If there was a document that was faxed a number of times and

15     still not completely legible, and then it was faxed through to a new

16     address, so much along the same lines I see that a copy was made here of

17     an order by the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18     signed by the president of the BH Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic.  The

19     only thing missing here that I can notice is a stamp telling us who

20     produced the copy.

21        Q.   Did you know about this BH Presidency order from Geneva at the

22     time it was actually delivered, which was in mid-June 1993?

23        A.   Yes, I knew about it.

24        Q.   Our next document --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in this Trial Chamber

Page 48586

 1     we have discussed this document for hours, and everyone knows this

 2     document; Judges, Prosecution, Defence counsel, everyone.  Ms. Alaburic

 3     asked you for an explanation, and you gave us one, and you seem to say

 4     that there must have been an original order by Mr. Izetbegovic which was

 5     copied.  That's one possibility, but there could be others, including one

 6     that I will give you, but it's just a working hypothesis.

 7             In Geneva, on June 13th, 1993, June 13th, Mr. Izetbegovic, on

 8     behalf of the Presidency, because you see that on item 4 that the

 9     Presidency made this decision unanimously and in its full composition, so

10     he is asking for the cessation of hostilities between the two armies.  He

11     says that those responsible for this are Delic and Petkovic, and he's

12     also asking the UNPROFOR to provide its services.

13             I would like to know whether, on June 13th in Geneva,

14     Mr. Izetbegovic told everyone that this was this order, that this order

15     would have been maybe sent by telephone or by another media to the HVO

16     Main Staff, because this would explain why an unidentified officer typed

17     this document and, on the next day, i.e., June 14th, after having

18     recorded this document in the log-book, because we have a reference

19     number 02-2/1, and so forth and so on, this document is -- once typed, is

20     sent to all operational zones.  So it seems that there could have been a

21     verbal order transmitted or conveyed by who knows whom, and at the staff

22     the entire order is being retyped.  Is this a possibility; yes or no?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know what was

24     agreed in Geneva.  I do know about this part, where I assume how this

25     came about.  Whenever similar documents arrived that were not entirely

Page 48587

 1     legible, they would be retyped, and the only thing that remained was for

 2     someone to put a stamp there in order to certify that the copy was

 3     identical to the original.  The kind of paper used for fax messages fades

 4     very soon.  I don't know if anything was attached to this to certify that

 5     the copy was faithful to the original or not.

 6             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Our next document - and then later

 7     I'll be asking questions about these BH Presidency decisions - 4D1586.

 8     It's a decision by the BH Presidency on a Presidency memorandum.  The

 9     date is the 20th of July, 1993, signed by President Alija Izetbegovic.

10     Paragraph 1, just as in the previous document, the units of the BH Army

11     and of the HVO are called upon to immediately and unconditionally cease

12     any mutual attacks.

13        Q.   What I want to know about, Mr. Jasak, is this fact that the BH

14     Presidency is here seen to be issuing orders that apply both to the HVO

15     and to the BH Army.  To begin with, let's look at the handwritten

16     portion, which reads:  "For Keza."  Can you explain what that means?

17        A.   Yes, I can.  "Keza" is Zarko Keza.  He's the VOS chief,

18     Zarko Keza.  The signature here belongs to Nikola Mikulic, who was an

19     official of the VOS as well.

20        Q.   Tell us, do these signatures mean that this document arrived in

21     the VOS?

22        A.   Yes, they do.

23        Q.   If we look at the upper part of this document, we can see that

24     the document was sent from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Does this follow from the number?

Page 48588

 1        A.   Yes.  And it says here "Ministry of Foreign Affairs," but I can't

 2     see the number.  It might be by satellite telephone.  I can't tell what

 3     this is about by the number, but you can see where it came from.

 4        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, did VOS have information to the

 5     effect that the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina was also issuing

 6     commands to the Croatian Defence Council?

 7        A.   VOS had to know this, because it says here, For the chief, and

 8     quite a few documents used to arrive in VOS by fax because the fax

 9     machine worked better than the other equipment we had.

10        Q.   The next document is 4D --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, there is a preamble to

12     this decision, explaining why the decision was actually made, and I note

13     that the province of Sarajevo, there was a session of the Presidency held

14     on July 19, 1993, and during this session they agreed to adopt the three

15     items in this decision.  This is what is written.

16             Given this, from Sarajevo on July 20th, maybe by fax, maybe,

17     we're not sure, but it probably is because on the top of the document we

18     have the wording from Ministry of Foreign Affairs, BH, phone number --

19     with a phone number, and this must have been sent to the staff, which

20     means that between Sarajevo and the staff there was communication.  When

21     it arrived, your chief and your colleague, Nikolic -- Keza and Nikolic

22     both wrote on this document to prove that they had obtained the document.

23             Now, if this is what happened, could you tell us to whom your

24     chief sent this document?  This is July 20th.  Mr. Petkovic is still

25     chief of the Main Staff.  According to you, what did Keza and Nikolic do

Page 48589

 1     with this document, or maybe yourself?  Who did they send it to?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not "Nikolic,"

 3     but "Mikulic," Nikola Mikulic, who signed this for Keza.  We can see that

 4     at the bottom.  I can't tell whose handwriting this is, but it may have

 5     arrived in VOS from the chief of the Main Staff or it might have been

 6     forwarded by VOS to the chief of the Main Staff.  Regardless of the fax

 7     number it arrived at, the chief of the Main Staff and the chief of the

 8     VOS certainly both knew about it.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a technical question.  I

10     believe that it should have been put to you ages ago, and I apologise for

11     not having thought about it earlier.

12             To your knowledge, could you tell us whether there was a

13     telephone connection or a fax connection between Sarajevo and this

14     building where you were located?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the building where we were,

16     there was a telefax which could be used to communicate with any place

17     that had a telephone, because we had a secure line, and any country in

18     the world, wherever there was a telephone or a fax, messages could be

19     sent.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that the entire

21     world could communicate with you by fax, because there's a number.  And I

22     saw a document where we had the telephone numbers and the fax numbers.

23     We could take a look at it, if need be.  So you do confirm that it was

24     possible to receive documents from anywhere, and since they had

25     communication devices, the Presidency probably sent this text?

Page 48590

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's correct.

 2             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Tell us, Mr. Jasak, as regards the possibility of communicating

 4     with Sarajevo - that's what His Honour was getting at - of course you

 5     could communicate with the whole world, but the question is:  Could you

 6     communicate with Sarajevo throughout all this time by phone or fax

 7     directly?

 8        A.   It was possible to communicate with Sarajevo if the telephone

 9     lines in Sarajevo were in order, if they were working.  If there was

10     fighting and in the fighting telephone lines were destroyed, then it

11     would not be possible.

12        Q.   Mr. Jasak, I'm asking you about facts.  Do you know whether the

13     lines were working the whole time, and did communication with Sarajevo

14     take place?

15        A.   I have no information that communications with Sarajevo took

16     place.  I was speaking hypothetically.  We could communicate with the

17     whole world.  It was an assumption of mine.

18        Q.   Well, it's clear to us, hypothetically, if there are lines, one

19     can communicate.  The question is:  Do you have any information about the

20     actual facts?  Was it really possible to communicate with Sarajevo?

21        A.   These are among the first such documents I have seen.  I had no

22     knowledge that such documents arrived prior to these.

23        Q.   All right.  Let's continue with our topic.  The next document

24     dealing with the HVO as an integral part of the armed forces is 4D1234.

25     You don't need to look.  You can listen to me reading it.  This is a

Page 48591

 1     draft of the Washington Agreement, and in item 6 the military agreement

 2     is defined.  Where were you, Mr. Jasak, in March 1994?

 3        A.   In March 1994, I was in Zagreb, in the Staff Command School.

 4        Q.   Did you know at the time that the Washington Agreement was being

 5     signed between the Croatian and Muslim sides in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   After the signing of this agreement, were the HVO and the Army of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or, rather, did they continue to function as

 9     separate entities with their own commands?

10        A.   Yes, they did.

11        Q.   Among the people close to you, was someone appointed the

12     commander of the Main Staff of the HVO?

13        A.   Not among the people I was close to, no.

14        Q.   Well, maybe I misunderstood you, then.  Who was appointed chief

15     of the Main Staff after Tihomir Blaskic?

16        A.   After Tihomir Blaskic, Zivko Budimir was appointed.

17        Q.   Did you know Mr. Budimir personally?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   I was referring to him.  I do apologise if you weren't close

20     friends, so I confused you by saying that.  I apologise.

21             The last document dealing with this topic, 4D826, the Law on

22     Defence of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The law was enacted by

23     the Constitutional Assembly of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina at a

24     session held on the 9th of July, 1996.  In Article 37, item 2, it says

25     that the army of the federation consists of the units of the BH Army and

Page 48592

 1     the HVO.

 2             To the best of your knowledge, what were the component parts, in

 3     reality, of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   The HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Did you have colleagues who were in the HVO and then continued

 6     working in the army of the federation?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to whether the time they spent in

 9     the HVO was recognised in their years of service?

10        A.   Yes, I do have such knowledge, and, yes, the time they spent in

11     the HVO was credited to them for their years of service.

12        Q.   Did these soldiers and officers who came from the HVO have the

13     same rights as the soldiers and officers of the Army of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina or was there a distinction between them?

15        A.   They had absolutely the same rights.  There was no difference

16     whatsoever.

17        Q.   Thank you very much.  Mr. Jasak, we'll now go back to topics

18     concerning combat in the period from 1992 to 1993.

19             You told us that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO

20     co-operated in the course of 1992, if you recall, when we were talking

21     about the time of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Let's look at 4D1700, 4D1700.  This is a command for defence of

24     the Central Bosnia Operations Zone.  The document was created in March

25     1996 [as interpreted], as confirmed by General Filipovic, who

Page 48593

 1     participated in the drafting of this order.  Please help us to understand

 2     this order.

 3             Tell us, Mr. Jasak, in view of your military experience and

 4     training, do you know what the structure of a defence order should be?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Tell us, what is defined first in such an order?

 7        A.   In every order, the first thing to be defined is the enemy, and

 8     that's done by the VOS.

 9        Q.   Let's look at this order issued by Tihomir Blaskic.  In item 1,

10     in the introductory part of this order, is the enemy defined?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Who is the enemy, according to this order?

13        A.   According to this order, the enemy is the VRS or, rather, the

14     units listed here by number.

15        Q.   In item 2 of this order, subparagraph 3, neighbours are defined;

16     to the right, parts of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Tell us,

17     Mr. Jasak, when you define a neighbour in this way, are you referring to

18     an ally or an enemy?

19        A.   We are referring to an ally.

20        Q.   In the order, in item 5.1, the task is defined, and it says that

21     it should be carried out in joint action with the Army of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And the same is stated in item 5.3.

23             Mr. Jasak, please tell us, what does it mean when you carry out a

24     combat task in joint action with another army?

25        A.   It means to co-ordinate the activities of two units, because the

Page 48594

 1     best possibility of breaking through the line is where the two units --

 2     or, rather, the line is most vulnerable at the point where two units meet

 3     if their action is not co-ordinated.

 4        Q.   If you, as an intelligence officer, had to explain, based on this

 5     document, who was the HVO's enemy in Central Bosnia at this point of

 6     time, what would you say?

 7        A.   I would say that the only enemy was the VRS.

 8        Q.   Let's look at the next document.

 9             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  May I ask a question probably of you,

10     Ms. Alaburic.

11             On page 62, line 2 and 3, you are here reported as saying that

12     the document was created in March 1996, and that strikes me as rather

13     improbable.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for your

15     intervention.  I regret we didn't spot the error.  I said "in 1993," in

16     1993.  Yes, we have noted this down as something to be corrected, but

17     it's better like this.  In the Croatian language, there was no doubt that

18     we are talking about 1993.

19        Q.   Let's look at the next document, 4D475.  This is an order for

20     active defence, dated the 23rd of February, 1993.  It was issued by

21     Miljenko Lasic, the commander of the South-Eastern Herzegovina Zone --

22     Operative Zone.  In item 1, we have information about the enemy.  Who is

23     defined as the enemy here, Mr. Jasak?

24        A.   The VRS is defined as the enemy, the 4th Herzegovina Corps.

25        Q.   In --

Page 48595

 1        A.   Excuse me.  Not the 4th, just the Herzegovina Corps.

 2        Q.   In item 2 of this order, it says that part of the units of the

 3     4th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina has been assigned some tasks.

 4     Can you comment on this?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6        Q.   Please do.

 7        A.   The units carrying out defence are defined here, including the

 8     Stjepan Radic HVO Brigade, the 1st HVO Brigade, Knez Domagoj, the 3rd HVO

 9     Brigade, the 2nd HVO Brigade, and this is not really legible, the

10     Herceg Stjepan Brigade, part of the units of the 4th Corps of the Army of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Cannon/Rocket Regiment, tank battalion and

12     home defence units, home guard units, and then the task is defined:  To

13     organise defence line at current positions.  On the right side at

14     Cavaska Gomila.

15        Q.   Mr. Jasak, there's no need for you to read us the document.

16     Could you just comment on it, please, from the viewpoint of co-operation

17     and the relations between the HVO and the BH Army?

18        A.   The HVO units and the BH Army units here are jointly taking part

19     in defence against the VRS.

20        Q.   In item 3, the 4th Corps of the BH Army is defined as "the

21     neighbour," so let's recall how this is to be interpreted.  Is a

22     neighbour a friend or an enemy?

23        A.   A neighbour is a friend.

24        Q.   In item 5.3, we can see that some tasks are assigned to the

25     Bregava Brigade of the BH Army and, in 5.5, to the 1st Mostar Brigade.

Page 48596

 1     And another piece of information, and then we'll summarise this.  We can

 2     see that this order was also sent to the 4th Corps of the BH Army.

 3             Mr. Jasak, can you comment on the fact that a confidential piece

 4     of information, such as this order for defence, was sent to the 4th Corps

 5     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes, I can.  This order was sent to all those participating in

 7     active defence.  This includes two units, the Bregava Brigade and the

 8     1st Mostar Brigade, who are participating in the defence, and they were

 9     part of the 4th Corps.  So together with the HVO, they were opposing the

10     VRS.  This sort of document may be forwarded only to the greatest of

11     friends because, on the contrary, if such a document were to fall into

12     enemy hands, it would threaten the entire combat disposition.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Colonel, earlier you said that

14     it was forwarded to the neighbours, so to a friend.  I'm not quite

15     convinced about that.  Sometimes, well, you have neighbours with whom

16     you're not necessarily very friendly.

17             Now, I see this document for the first time, I must say, and I

18     have noted, without you saying it, that it was forwarded to the

19     4th Corps, so Mr. Pasalic has knowledge of these elements.  So I see in

20     this document some information which usually armies keep as top-secret

21     information; number of fighters, means, assets, et cetera.  And here the

22     "army," [as interpreted] quote/unquote --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, the interpreter apologises, "the enemy."

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- is communicated information

25     which can be used between Pasalic and the HVO, so he's given information,

Page 48597

 1     and the person giving the information is Mr. Lasic in person.  When it

 2     says that given unit has this and that sort of weapons, this or that

 3     assets, it means that you actually give information -- military

 4     information.  For instance, the Motorised Brigade -- the Bileca Motorised

 5     Brigade, it says that there are 1400 fighters in this brigade, and that

 6     it is reinforced with tanks, with two howitzers, 120-millimetres, and so

 7     on and so on.

 8             So Mr. Pasalic is given information.  So you, as an expert of

 9     military intelligence of the time, when you give information of that

10     nature to a military entity which is another entity, do you give that

11     rather to an enemy or to a friend?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, information is

13     provided to friends exclusively.  The brigade you mentioned here, the

14     Bileca Motorised Brigade, was an enemy unit.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  Well, when I said that,

16     I was wondering about it.  And so it's a BH Army brigade, isn't it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  That was a

18     brigade of the VRS.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  So when you give

20     this information to the 4th Corps, and this is information which were

21     received from the forces -- about the forces of Republika Srpska, it

22     means that you do not hide anything; isn't that right?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there was no

24     concealment.  Nothing was being hidden.  Information about the enemy was

25     provided and about our own forces.

Page 48598

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, I'm a Judge, and in my

 2     modest capacity I'm trying to understand, and I do not make any headway.

 3     We are in February, on the 23rd of February exactly.  And as we can see,

 4     there are connections between the HVO and the BH Army.  But we know that

 5     before that, that were problems in January, in October, in Prozor.  We

 6     know that there were conflicts.  So how do you connect those past

 7     conflicts, present or future conflicts, with such a document?  I mean,

 8     what sort of explanation do you have?  What does it mean in reality?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this means, in

10     reality, that the only enemy both of the HVO and of the BH Army was the

11     VRS, and the conflicts on the ground -- well, within 24 hours everything

12     was done to obtain a truce.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Jasak, His Honour Judge Antonetti is entirely right when he

15     claims that you also had a neighbour with whom you were not entertaining

16     friendly relations.  For that reason, I would now like to ask you to

17     define for us the term "neighbour" as it occurs in these military

18     documents, so not generally speaking but in military terms.  When, in a

19     military document, we come across the term "neighbour," what exactly does

20     that mean?

21        A.   If we define someone as a neighbour, it means this:  Each unit

22     has a left neighbour and a right neighbour.  These neighbours must be

23     friendly.  At all points where two units link up, there has to be the

24     closest possible co-operation in order to prevent the front-line from

25     being penetrated by the enemy.

Page 48599

 1        Q.   All right.  Let us assume we have a unit in a certain area.

 2     Right next to this area is an area controlled by the enemy.  How, then,

 3     will you define this line between your own unit and the territory that is

 4     under the control of the enemy?

 5        A.   The enemy is the enemy.  No special marking needs to be done.

 6     It's just a line.  If we have a defending unit, then there are neighbours

 7     both to the left and to the right involved in the same defence effort as

 8     neighbouring units; friendly ones, at any rate.

 9        Q.   May I therefore conclude, and correct me if I'm wrong, you face

10     an area that is under the control of the enemy, in a colloquial sense you

11     are neighbours, in terms of being adjacent; nevertheless, this enemy unit

12     would fall under the heading "Enemy" and not be defined as a neighbour?

13        A.   Yes.  In military terminology, as far as I know, only a friendly

14     unit can be defined as a neighbour.  Everyone else falls under the

15     definition of an enemy.

16        Q.   The only thing separating you from the enemy is the front-line;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   All right.  Mr. Jasak, we've just seen two orders in relation to

20     two operations zones, and we saw what the relationship was like towards

21     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Based on your knowledge, did the HVO

22     perhaps have any contingency plans for combat operations for the purposes

23     of which the BH Army was defined as an enemy?

24        A.   The HVO had no contingency plans for the purposes of which the

25     BH Army was defined as an enemy.

Page 48600

 1        Q.   Mr. Jasak, to the best of your knowledge as a resident of Mostar,

 2     an official of the Main Staff, a person who was directly in touch with

 3     soldiers and military commanders, do you know anything about the HVO

 4     preparing for clashes with the BH Army?

 5        A.   I have no knowledge of that at all.

 6        Q.   Given the English interpretation, it means you know nothing about

 7     that, or do you mean the HVO was not preparing for clashes with the

 8     BH Army?

 9        A.   The HVO was not preparing for any clashes with the BH Army.

10        Q.   The next document is 4D1355.  This is an interview given by

11     General Milivoj Petkovic in mid-1994 on the eve of his departure from

12     Herceg-Bosna.  Question number 5 and question number 6 from the end of

13     the document, we see the journalist asking the following question:

14             "The result in the war against the Muslims were somewhat poor?"

15             And the general's reply was:

16             "That's right."

17             The next question:

18             "Were they not the weaker enemy?"

19             And the general's reply:

20             "No, they were not.  The distribution of the Croatian population

21     is such that we form enclaves all over the place.  The distribution of

22     power was unfavorable, and we had not been preparing to fight them.

23     Everyone took their own decisions at a local level, and everyone assumed

24     nothing would happen over here because our relations are good."

25             Mr. Jasak, given your personal experience and given your

Page 48601

 1     knowledge, which I referred to in the introductory part of my previous

 2     question, the facts stated in this particular reply by General Petkovic

 3     are correct, aren't they?

 4        A.   In my opinion, these facts are absolutely correct.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us whether the military commanders and the

 6     authorities of Herceg-Bosna were surprised by what happened in mid-April

 7     1993?  Without for the time being going into such questions as to who

 8     attacked whom, were they not surprised by the sheer volume of the

 9     fighting and combat on the part of the BH Army?  Were they surprised and

10     were they ready to face anything like that.

11        A.   They were certainly entirely surprised.  The sheer force of the

12     attack that occurred and the units involved were such that they could

13     have been better used to lift the blockade of Sarajevo, had they decided

14     to use the same amount of force for that purpose.

15        Q.   Mr. Jasak, do you know anything about how General Petkovic, in

16     his capacity as the chief of the Main Staff, wanted to go about resolving

17     various incidents, innocent misunderstandings, even clashes between the

18     BH Army and the HVO?

19        A.   General Petkovic did his best to resolve each and every conflict

20     by negotiating and by peaceful means and methods.

21        Q.   Were you to say what General Petkovic focused on in particular

22     during your time with the Main Staff, what could you tell us?

23        A.   I could say that for the most part, he focused on negotiations of

24     all different kinds, under the auspices of the international community or

25     without its presence, meaning negotiating directly with BH Army

Page 48602

 1     representatives.

 2        Q.   Did you at any point hear that anyone at the Main Staff, or in

 3     any of the bodies that you were in touch with, criticised

 4     General Petkovic for spending too much time on international

 5     negotiations, saying that he was too peaceable, too peace-loving, and

 6     that the Main Staff should be run in a different way?

 7        A.   One could overhear remarks to the effect that the general should

 8     be more energetic, more vigorous, and not give way as much as he used to.

 9        Q.   Let's look at the section of this interview where the general is

10     asked a very similar question about whether he really should have tried

11     to put a stop to each and every conflict.  It's the third question from

12     the end of the interview.  General Petkovic says:

13             "Some say we could have scored a success immediately over there.

14     Perhaps we could have in Mostar, too.  When liberating Mostar, they had

15     nothing apart from a poorly armed, independent battalion.  Nevertheless,

16     who at the time would even have considered a conflict with the Muslims?

17     Our own brigades had Muslim members, after all.  The clashes around

18     Prozor were what they were.  There weren't any civilian casualties.  The

19     clashes around Vakuf were stopped from Geneva."

20             General Petkovic says here:

21             "Who could have imagined any clashes with the Muslims at the

22     time?"

23             Sir, as long as your familiarity with General Petkovic allows you

24     to answer the question, please go ahead and answer it.  If not, please

25     just say so.  The question is this:  Could General Petkovic have uttered

Page 48603

 1     this sentence, honestly believing that back then nobody had even been

 2     able to imagine that the HVO would at some time clash with the Muslims?

 3        A.   I can honestly confirm that this sentence means what it says, and

 4     it is entirely consistent with General Petkovic's actions on the ground.

 5        Q.   The next sentence:

 6             "Our own brigades, after all, comprise Muslim soldiers."

 7             My conclusion would be that General Petkovic considered the

 8     presence of those Muslims in the HVO units to be a factor potentially

 9     preventing any clashes between the BH Army and the HVO.  Mr. Jasak, in

10     view of your acquaintance with General Petkovic, in view of your opinion

11     regarding General Petkovic, did he, indeed, believe these Muslims in the

12     HVO to be a factor of stability, potentially preventing any clashes with

13     the Muslims, since "we had Muslims within our own ranks," that being the

14     general reasoning?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.  General Petkovic saw these Muslims as a

16     bridge, a link, if you like, between the BH Army and the HVO.  He also

17     honestly believed that this fact alone would stop any clashes from

18     erupting, or at least any serious ones.  If there were to be any clashes,

19     they would be minor ones that could easily be put out within a 24-hour

20     period.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I realise it's time

22     for a break.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we're going to take a

24     break.  I only have a small question, a very quick one, about this

25     document.

Page 48604

 1             It's an interesting document, this interview of General Petkovic,

 2     and I will certainly have the opportunity with him to talk about this

 3     document in light of what is included in the interview, but a point of

 4     detail that you may be able to confirm or not.

 5             At some point, he's asked about the staff and the fact that on

 6     two occasions he was head of staff, and General Petkovic explains that

 7     with General Praljak there was an agreement to break down the tasks in

 8     two areas, Central Bosnia and Rama-Uskoplje.  From your standpoint, from

 9     your position, did you learn that, in fact, there was no one head of

10     staff, but two, and that they had split among themselves the territory

11     and the competencies relating to those territories?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was not aware of

13     there being two chiefs or two commanders.  At one point in time, I don't

14     know exactly what it was called, a chief of staff or the staff commander,

15     and I think it was roughly the same time that General Petkovic mentions.

16     At any rate, General Petkovic spent quite some time negotiating in

17     Central Bosnia.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So you don't have

19     any specific knowledge about this.

20             Let's take a 20-minute break.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

24             Mr. Stewart.

25             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honours.  It's a very short

Page 48605

 1     request, Your Honour.

 2             Our response to the objections by the Prosecution to our IC list

 3     in relation to the witness Maric is due first thing tomorrow morning.  We

 4     ask, and the Prosecution have no objection to this, I can tell Your

 5     Honours, that we ask that in the light of the scheduling, may we have

 6     until Thursday to do that?  We're sitting tomorrow morning, as Your

 7     Honours appreciate.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber

 9     is granting you leave for that.

10             Ms. Alaburic.

11             MR. SCOTT:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  If we could while

12     Mr. Stewart is on his feet, or at least after he's been on his feet, make

13     a similar request.  I think we also owe -- my apologies.  I believe we

14     may owe two responses as well, and I'm not sure we can get them filed by

15     tomorrow.  So as I mentioned to Mr. Stewart when he came across, if we

16     could have a similar extension until Thursday, that would be appreciated

17     as well.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Well, for equality

19     of arms, of course we grant you leave also.

20             Ms. Alaburic, you have two hours and fifty-nine minutes left.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours.  More on

22     this subject that is related to General Petkovic personally, very

23     briefly.

24             4D397 is our next document.  This is a letter written by

25     General Petkovic in June 1992 and addressed to the Municipal Staffs of

Page 48606

 1     the HVO in Konjic and Gornji Vakuf because of tensions and incidents

 2     involving the Territorial Defence.  The letter states:

 3             "I hope you didn't forget that the TO and the HVO are integral

 4     parts of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Instead of

 5     strengthening their mutual bonds in the fight against our common enemy,

 6     standing at the very threshold of your municipality, you are preparing to

 7     use weapons against each other.  In the name of both Croats and Muslims,

 8     I beg you to overcome this situation.  As members of the Armed Forces of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you are obliged to do that."

10        Q.   Mr. Jasak, regardless of the fact that the document bears no

11     title, do you consider this document to be an order or a simple request?

12        A.   It is quite clear that the document is a mere request, or a

13     recommendation, if you like, telling them how they should join forces

14     against their common enemy, and the enemy's already standing, as it were,

15     at the threshold of their home.

16        Q.   Did you know General Petkovic back then in June of 1992?

17        A.   Yes, I knew him, but not as well as I did later on.  I knew that

18     he was the chief or the commander.

19        Q.   I won't be asking you any personal questions, then.

20             4D433, that is our next document.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a short

22     follow-up question.

23             We have here a personal document written by Mr. Petkovic and

24     dated June 20th, 1992, telling the Konjic municipality that they're not

25     supposed to forget the TO and HVO are integral parts of the Armed Forces

Page 48607

 1     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This is a statement made by Mr. Petkovic to a

 2     political entity.  It's a top-secret message, and it's also encoded.

 3             Mr. Petkovic is expressing something in this message and is very

 4     clear.  Now, I would like to know whether this was shared by all HVO

 5     soldiers in June 1992.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no way I can

 7     know what all the other soldiers believed.  I can tell you what I

 8     believed, and I believed this, and this belief was shared by those I

 9     actually knew.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Jasak, given the fact that sometimes the distinction between

13     the civilian HVO and the military HVO is unclear based on documents, tell

14     us this:  If this was dispatched to the Municipal Staff of the HVO, would

15     that be a civilian body or a military body?

16        A.   The staff was a military body.

17        Q.   And what was the name of the civilian HVO in Donji Vakuf --

18     Gornji Vakuf?

19        A.   I don't know exactly what it was called.  Probably "the HVO," no

20     more than that.  At the time, municipal staffs comprised the military.

21        Q.   Mr. Jasak, if I may be allowed to ask a leading question that is

22     of no particular significance but that might be useful, if I try to look

23     at the signature, and then based on that try and understand whether this

24     was the civilian component or the military component of the HVO, could we

25     say that a document would be signed by a commander on behalf of the

Page 48608

 1     military component of the HVO and the president on behalf of the civilian

 2     component of the HVO?

 3        A.   Yes, that would be understood.  I have no doubt that this is a

 4     military document.  It was signed by the commander, and it's addressed to

 5     the Municipal Staff.  Therefore, it was understood that on the 26th this

 6     would be forwarded to the military commands or the municipal staffs.

 7        Q.   4D433, instructions by the chief of the Main Staff,

 8     Milivoj Petkovic, sent to the Konjic Main Staff, to be delivered to

 9     Sagolj personally.  The date is the 20th of January, 1993.  It's about

10     allaying tensions in Konjic.  It reads:

11             "Establish contact with the BH Army in Konjic and make an effort

12     to allay any tensions."

13             Mr. Jasak, by this time you are with the Main Staff already and

14     you are personally acquainted with General Petkovic.  If we look at these

15     instructions, is this something that he can be said to have considered an

16     appropriate way of dealing with any problems with the BH Army?

17        A.   These instructions, this note, reflect very faithfully

18     General Petkovic's modus operandi.

19        Q.   You're trying to say that this is exactly what Petkovic did,

20     himself; right?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   Tell us, if you can, in relation to individual municipalities,

23     was the situation in a given municipality in any relation whatsoever to

24     the ability of the municipal commander to establish and maintain good

25     relations with his counterpart in the BH Army?

Page 48609

 1        A.   By all means, the ability to negotiate was a very important

 2     factor.  When you have armed men on both sides, it's very easy to soon

 3     have incidents occurring or clashes erupting, unless everybody tries to

 4     use their common sense.

 5        Q.   I have a particular question about the operations zone that you

 6     were analysing, Mr. Jasak.  The 23rd of March, 1993, does that date have

 7     any special significance for you?

 8        A.   The 23rd of March; is that what you asked?

 9        Q.   Yes, precisely.

10        A.   That was when the clashes erupted in Konjic municipality.

11        Q.   Did you in the VOS have any information about those clashes?

12        A.   Yes, we did.

13        Q.   Based on such information as you had, who attacked whom?

14        A.   According to our information, it was the BH Army units that

15     attacked the HVO.

16        Q.   Look at the next document, 4D125.  This is an order dated the

17     23rd of March, 1993, co-signed by Milivoj Petkovic, on behalf of the HVO,

18     and Arif Pasalic, on behalf of the 4th Corps of the BH Army, and this is

19     an order to stop all fighting between the HVO and the BH Army.

20     Mr. Jasak, in the VOS did you have information showing that the conflicts

21     were stopped, based on this order on the same day --

22        A.   Yes, we did.

23        Q.   -- in Konjic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The next two documents I have prepared --

Page 48610

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I was looking at this

 2     document jointly signed by Pasalic and Petkovic, and I was quite

 3     interested to note that this document is headed with the Republic of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO, Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

 5     Now, Pasalic is a BH Army officer, but he is signing a document coming

 6     from the HVO, on HVO letterhead.  Of course, Pasalic cannot tell us why

 7     he actually signed this document, since he passed away.  But you are a

 8     military intelligence specialist, so could you give us an explanation?

 9     Could you answer us why the top man in the BH Army in the Mostar area

10     would sign a document on HVO letterhead?  Because it's not a neutral

11     document.  It is on HVO letterhead.  How can you explain this?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we look at the

13     document, underneath the coat of arms of Herceg-Bosna, it says

14     "Main Staff of the HVO," and to the right it says "4th Corps Command,"

15     and this document with the HVO heading, in my view, is the way it is

16     because both sides wanted to halt the conflict quickly.  It was drawn up

17     based on an agreement between General Petkovic and Mr. Arif Pasalic in

18     the HVO Main Staff.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Earlier, you said

20     that the BH Army started attacking the HVO as of March 23, 1993.  But if

21     on the same day Pasalic signs a document asking for -- according to which

22     there is an order for a cease-fire, why is it that there's still an

23     attack?  How can you reconcile this?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were several

25     instances whereas such cease-fires were signed, but not respected.  The

Page 48611

 1     conflicts continued.  Either it was impossible to keep the troops on the

 2     ground under control, or the negotiations on the part of the BH Army were

 3     not entered into sincerely.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So who's responsible for the

 5     situation, according to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the leadership of the

 7     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is responsible.

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   The next two documents, Mr. Jasak, you can just listen.  P3805 is

10     an UNPROFOR document.  Let me just check whether it's under seal.  It

11     doesn't seem to be.  And from this document, it transpires that on the

12     30th of July, 1993, an agreement on cessation of all hostilities was

13     signed at Sarajevo Airport by the representatives of the three warring

14     sides in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on behalf of the Croatian side it was

15     signed by Milivoj Petkovic.  Based on this agreement, Milivoj Petkovic

16     issued an order on cessation of hostilities.  That's P3816.  These were

17     activities that took place in 1993.

18             Do you know when General Praljak came to the head of the

19     Main Staff of the HVO?

20        A.   I think it was on the 23rd of July, or thereabouts, in 1993, but

21     I don't know whether this is the period when the HVO had both a commander

22     and a chief of the Main Staff.

23        Q.   Very well.  We'll see that from the documents we'll see shortly.

24     But what I want to know now is the following:  Do you know who dealt with

25     issues of co-operation with UNPROFOR and participating in international

Page 48612

 1     conferences at the time when General Praljak was the first man in the HVO

 2     Main Staff?

 3        A.   General Petkovic continued dealing with these matters.

 4        Q.   I will now ask you to look at P --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please tell me if I'm

 6     wrong.  If I'm wrong, tell me, you know.  I won't take offence; of course

 7     not.  I'm trying to understand, and we have thousands and thousands of

 8     documents to look at and it's very difficult to know exactly what

 9     happened.

10             Now, we have a document from the international community, and I

11     believe that it shouldn't be contested.  Well, you never know.  Well, the

12     international community is mentioning the agreement, and Mr. Mladic is

13     mentioned also, the notorious Mladic still at large, and we all hope that

14     sometime he will come to be tried.  Anyway, Mr. Mladic is speaking and is

15     talking about the situation of 3.000 Croats who fled from Bugojno towards

16     the Serbian lines.  I'm sure you know that there had been a BH Army

17     offensive in Bugojno which led to the Croats fleeing the area.

18             But here we find out that the Croats left for the Serbian lines,

19     which probably means that the Serbs were not shooting at them, and that

20     General Mladic is trying to solve the situation through this document, so

21     maybe through exchange of prisoners, or maybe he believes that these

22     Croats are prisoners.  We don't really know exactly what he wants to do.

23     But I always believed, you know, that in order to understand the

24     conflict, you don't just have to say that it's a conflict between Muslims

25     and Croats, but you have to integrate the Serbian component into this in

Page 48613

 1     order to understand what exactly unfolded.  Now, do you believe that I'm

 2     wrong in trying to do so or not?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, throughout the war the

 4     VRS was defined as the enemy.  In part, for one year, the Army of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina was an enemy of the HVO.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You haven't really answered my

 7     question.  I understand what you said, but this is what I'm trying to

 8     ascertain:  If I interpret all the events that unfolded only looking from

 9     the angle of what happened between Croats and Muslims, don't you think I

10     would be making a mistake if I forget to include the Serbian component?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't fully

12     understand your question.  Do you mean to say that the Serbs had an

13     influence on the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  To a certain extent, I

15     would say, Yes.  I would like to know the following:  When looking at the

16     situation on the ground, what happened on the ground, the fact that the

17     BH Army attacked in Bugojno, for example, the fact that 3.000 Croats flee

18     towards the Serb lines, not in another direction, I would like to know

19     whether there's an explanation for this.  When there is this conflict

20     between the Muslims and Croats, don't you think we should --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, "do you think."

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- that we should also take

23     into account the Serbian component?  Are we supposed to consider the

24     conflict only from the angle of Croats against Muslims?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when the Croats came

Page 48614

 1     under attack, they ran every which way, so it's quite possible, because

 2     if they fled in one direction, they would be sure to be in danger of

 3     their lives, and they weren't sure what would happen if they ran the

 4     other way.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that the enemy

 6     was the Serbs, but we have 3.000 Croats fleeing towards the Serbian

 7     lines.  Why is that?  Were they told that nothing would happen to them?

 8     Were there agreements that we don't know about?  Everything is very

 9     strange.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know of any

11     agreement, but they knew that if they fled in one direction, they would

12     be killed immediately.  If they fled in the other direction, they might

13     stay alive somehow.  And there was no way they could flee in a third

14     direction.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I understand you.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Let's try to analyse this more

17     broadly.

18        Q.   If you had to explain to Their Honours something that's important

19     for the understanding of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would you have to

20     include the Serbian side in your explanation?  Would you have to explain

21     that there were also Serbs there, that they had their own authorities,

22     their own army, what their aims were, what their relations with the

23     Muslim army and the HVO were?  Are the Serbs a relevant factor for

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   As regards the Serbs, they also come from the territory of

Page 48615

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but there is a difference.  When there was a

 2     referendum for the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croats and the

 3     Muslims voted for independence and the Serbs did not, but they certainly

 4     have the right to their own space within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   If you wish to understand the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or in

 6     some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you have to know something about

 7     what the Serbs are doing and what they want?

 8        A.   Well, yes.  The Serbs want to create their own ethnic territory.

 9     They want their own area.

10        Q.   So you have to know something about the activities of the Serbs

11     in order to understand the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  That was the

12     gist of Judge Antonetti's question.

13        A.   Well, quite simply, I didn't understand the question.

14        Q.   Very well.  Tell us, if we wanted to explain to Their Honours how

15     it came about that the Croats were in an enclave in the Konjic

16     municipality, the villages of Turija, Zaslivlje, and Zabrdje, and managed

17     to survive there, would we have to tell Their Honours something about the

18     Serbs as well?

19        A.   Yes, the Croats there managed to survive because at the local

20     level they established contacts with the Serbs, and that's how they

21     managed to survive.

22        Q.   And now an example that His Honour used, Bugojno.  It's outside

23     the operations zone we are discussing, but the principle is the same.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the answer, please.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

Page 48616

 1        Q.   For the full understanding --

 2             [In English] I surrender.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  The interpreters have asked for the witness to

 4     repeat the answer.  Sorry.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To understand the situation, when a

 6     specific question was asked which I understood, for example, the Croatian

 7     enclave of Turija, Zabrdje, and Zaslivlje managed to survive thanks to

 8     the Serbs because they managed to reach an agreement at the local level.

 9     It is also possible that something like that happened on the territory of

10     Bugojno.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And now the question asked by Judge Antonetti was the following:

13     For the full understanding of the events on the ground, for example, the

14     events in Bugojno, do we have to know something about the activities of

15     the Serbian side; were they co-operating with someone, were they letting

16     civilians pass through, were they supplying someone with weapons, and so

17     on?

18        A.   Absolutely, yes.

19        Q.   Well, tell us, why do we have to know that?

20        A.   Well, because - and I'm now referring to the area of Turija,

21     Zabrdje, and Zaslivlje - it was only by co-operation that the lives of

22     those people could be saved.

23        Q.   Mr. Jasak, I'm not asking you why the Croats co-operated with the

24     Serbs in some areas.  I am asking you why we have to know something about

25     the activities and plans of the Serbs in order to understand the

Page 48617

 1     situation on the ground.

 2        A.   I'm sorry.  I don't understand your question.

 3        Q.   The question is:  What do we have to know in order to understand

 4     properly the situation on the ground?  If on the ground you have three

 5     armies, three civilian authorities, the question is:  Is it enough to

 6     know only about what the Muslims and the Croats are doing, or do you have

 7     to know what the Serbs are doing and thinking, if possible?

 8        A.   Well, yes, you have to know about the activities of all three

 9     sides.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.

11             Witness, can you explain to the Chamber how you have a general

12     view and a knowledge of the problems the Chamber has to deal with that

13     you can give such an answer?  I think it's not a proper question, but how

14     can you tell us -- how can you give us such an answer?  Do you know what

15     problems the Chamber has to deal with, what is important, what is not?

16             MR. KARNAVAS:  Mr. President, Judge Trechsel, I believe that

17     remark or comment or question was improper, and I'll say why.

18             We have been struggling for the last four years, or nearly four

19     years, to put matters into context.  The question of why, obviously, goes

20     for context.  Now, we're not dealing with the situation in Iraq,

21     Afghanistan, Switzerland, Hungary, France, or wherever.  We're dealing

22     with a situation when none of us were there.  You were some place else.

23     Some of us may have been in the region and may think we know what was

24     happening because we were working in certain positions or reading the

25     newspapers, but now we have an individual who was there, and we need to

Page 48618

 1     put things in context.

 2             Now, I understand that some members of the Trial Bench believe

 3     that everything is tu quoque, and we're concerned about that, that

 4     everything was done by the Croats against the Muslims, they were the

 5     aggressors, there's only one army, and the perception that some of us are

 6     getting is we shouldn't even have a trial because, you know, certain

 7     minds have already been made up.  That's a perception.  We're trying to

 8     change what we believe is a perception, hopefully not a reality.

 9             Now, this gentleman, if he was in the army and if he was there,

10     if he was associated with the general, obviously he would be in a

11     position to know why it is necessary for someone to understand the

12     situation, be it a judge, be it a prosecutor, be it an individual, his

13     neighbour, why it's necessary to know what is happening on the ground and

14     what all three sides are doing.  I think that is important.

15             Now, a more relevant question is whether the individual knows.

16     Does he have any personal knowledge upon which he can answer that

17     question?  But I don't think that you can possible -- you can possibly

18     begin to fathom and understand what is happening if you're saying, We

19     don't want to hear about the one side.  And this is why I'm extremely

20     troubled when, for instance, you -- in our particular case, you have

21     chosen deliberately to exclude official gazettes of other municipalities

22     when we're trying to show what they're doing, not for tu quoque, but to

23     show there are limitations upon which all -- everybody was working under,

24     because it seems to us that if you are isolating everything and you're

25     just looking at one piece of evidence in isolation, it is easy to get to

Page 48619

 1     the wrong conclusion.

 2             I certainly believe the gentleman can give us an opinion as to

 3     why he believes it is necessary for everyone, not just the Judges, for

 4     everyone to know what all three sides are doing.  Whether he is --

 5     whether you want to give any weight to that answer, that's another

 6     question.

 7             Now, maybe a predicate needs to be asked.  Can the gentleman --

 8     is he in a position to give such information?  If so, what gives -- on

 9     what basis does he -- you know, does he have this information, more

10     details.  But I do believe, Your Honour, with the deepest respects, that

11     the manner in which you address the witness and suggesting that he

12     doesn't know anything and shouldn't be commenting, I think, is improper.

13             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Karnavas, I must really reject this

14     criticism of one and a half pages, almost, of a question.  If you believe

15     that the Chamber, after three and three-quarters of years of hearing this

16     case, needs this witness, who was a medium-level officer, to tell the

17     Chamber what is relevant to decide this case, I think it is not a proper

18     question.  The Chamber knows what's relevant.  That's not the issue,

19     Mr. Karnavas.  I'm not -- I have not in any way suggested that this was

20     not something that could be of some interest, but I think it is really

21     not a question this witness, having in mind of what we have heard from

22     him so far, is the person to answer.

23             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, Judge Trechsel, I believe, then, the

24     objection should have been to the counsel, not to the witness.  The

25     witness was asked the question.  He was merely trying to answer a

Page 48620

 1     question.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That's more or less what I did.  I said I

 3     thought this was not a proper question for this witness, Mr. Karnavas.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  Well, I apologise if in any way I've offended the

 5     Bench, but it seemed to me that perhaps if a counsel asked the wrong

 6     question, counsel should be admonished or corrected.  The gentleman, in

 7     my opinion, was merely trying to give an answer.  Now, perhaps he doesn't

 8     have the proper foundation or the proper foundation wasn't laid.  Perhaps

 9     with more foundational questions, he would be in a position to answer

10     that question.  But this gentleman doesn't know what we know or what has

11     happened in the last three and a half years.

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I have, in fact, asked what his foundation was,

13     Mr. Karnavas.  It may have slipped your mind because you were all worked

14     up already, filled with a sort of paranoic fear that the Chamber had all

15     sorts of ideas that you suppose and bring up again and again.

16             But I think we can close it here.  Okay?

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well.

18             MR. STEWART:  Well, I do know Your Honour wishes to close it, but

19     I do wish to go and say something on behalf of the Petkovic Defence, and

20     it's one of those happy occasions where I spoke what Mr. Karnavas has

21     said.  I'm in a mildly more awkward position, because so far as it might

22     be said that what Your Honour said to the witness ought to be deflected

23     to counsel, then, of course, it's my lead counsel, but my lead counsel is

24     easily tough enough to deal with any such points that might be raised by

25     one of the learned Judges in relation to her, and I have every confidence

Page 48621

 1     in her to deal directly with any point that's put fairly and squarely to

 2     her.

 3             But, Your Honour, it was -- and Mr. Karnavas is right.  It was,

 4     with respect, not fair to put the point to the witness in the way that

 5     you did, to be asking a witness, Do you know what problems the Chamber

 6     has to deal with, what is important, what is not.  Mr. Karnavas is right.

 7     The witness just answered the question, and not only did he just answer

 8     the question, but as it happens, a question directed to a witness in

 9     relation to understanding the situation on the ground goes right to what

10     Mr. Karnavas was saying was -- the witness was there, he was on the

11     ground.  This is not purely opinion he's being asked.  It's not expert

12     evidence he's being asked.  He's being asked to convey what he actually

13     saw and what he experienced and what he knows from being there at the

14     time.  And, really, it goes back to -- there's been a lot of stuff about

15     foundation, but if a witness is going to do that, it's entirely fair to

16     ask him, then, whether, based on his knowledge of his being there at the

17     time, whether it -- in fact, to convey that knowledge and to give the

18     Trial Chamber the facts as he sees them, which is his job as a witness,

19     it is enough to know only about what the Muslims and the Croats were

20     doing or did you have to know what the Serbs were doing.  He was a

21     soldier, and anybody in these armies -- it's ridiculous to suppose that

22     anybody at his level in the army doesn't have a knowledge and a grasp of

23     what you needed to know and what you needed to understand about what that

24     third party was doing at the time.  That must have been part of the --

25     well, I suppose I'm speculating a bit, but the day-to-day conversation

Page 48622

 1     amongst soldiers.

 2             Your Honour, it wasn't fair to the witness, with respect, and

 3     Mr. Karnavas was right.

 4             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I object to the interference, that my question

 5     and my ideas are ridiculous, Mr. Stewart.

 6             MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour needs to read carefully what I

 7     said, but I'm entitled to make my submissions in firm forensic terms and

 8     I -- well, it's there on the transcript, Your Honour.  We can all read

 9     it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, well, actually, I'm

11     the origin of the problem, the source of the problem, because I asked a

12     question from the document, and maybe that's where your misunderstanding

13     comes from.  I thought I asked a question which was clear.  You said, I

14     don't understand the questions.  Ms. Alaburic rephrased the question in

15     better terms, and you still told her, I do not understand the question.

16     So I should have told you, sir, we have a document coming from the

17     headquarters of Kiseljak, and this is a document sent by

18     Mr. Victor Andrew to a Cedric Thornberry in charge of civil affairs.

19     This is a document which has two aspects: one a political aspect and one

20     military aspect.  The political aspect is about the discussions in

21     Geneva, and the military issue is that this document states that there is

22     an agreement between three people, Mladic, Delic and Petkovic, who are

23     three high-level commanders, military commanders.

24             Now, when I saw those three names and I saw the mention of

25     Bugojno, I wondered whether there were possibly not only two players on

Page 48623

 1     the ground, without referring to tu quoque or whatever else, but three

 2     players, the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims, because everything is

 3     connected, and that's why I asked you that question, and I said, If I

 4     consider this conflict to be a conflict between two players, am I right

 5     in thinking that, or should I consider the context involving three

 6     stakeholders or three players?  I think it was a clear question.  So

 7     maybe you knew that or did not know that.  Maybe you only dealt with the

 8     BH Army and not with the Serbs, and maybe that explains or that can

 9     explain a number of things.

10             However, as an analyst working in the VOS, did you have a

11     knowledge about the whole context or did you have a knowledge about only

12     what was happening within the BH Army?  That's the gist of my question.

13     So what's your field of competence, only the BH Army or the BH Army and

14     also the Serbs?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we had knowledge of

16     both what was happening in the BH Army and in the VRS.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.  So you had some

18     knowledge about what was happening both within the BH Army and also

19     within the VRS.  What about this knowledge; was it an extended sort of

20     knowledge or was it only sketchy or patchy?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had the kind of information that

22     we were able to obtain, we, or, rather, our people on the ground.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, there's a whole series of

24     documents, and had I known that it would raise problems, then I would

25     have listed all the documents.  But I think that there are documents

Page 48624

 1     signed by Mr. Petkovic talking about Serbs shooting.  There are also

 2     documents stemming from the international community referring to what is

 3     done by the Serbs, and so on and so forth.  So we have a series of

 4     documents showing that the conflict was not amongst two parties, but that

 5     all the parties were involved, and that's what I want to know.

 6             According to you, was it a conflict purely between Croats and

 7     Muslims or did it involve Croats and Muslims against the Serbs, or

 8     sometimes Muslims against the Serbs, Croats against the Serbs?  So, you

 9     know, there are several possible cases.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That depends on the period of time

11     we're talking about.  There were clashes where the Muslims and the Croats

12     fought the Serbs.  That applied to most of the war.  And there were

13     certain clashes when the Serbs took steps against the Croats and the

14     Muslims occasionally.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And possibly could you give us

16     some dates, or don't you have specific dates that you can give us?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I'll give it a

18     try.

19             Specifically in the Mostar area, speaking of an all-out war that

20     broke out on the 30th of June, 1993, up until that point in time both

21     Croats and Muslims, the HVO and the BH Army, had been fighting together

22     against the Serbs.  Afterward, Serbs fought the Croats and the Muslims,

23     depending on the point in time, in the Konjic area specifically.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a few minutes left.

25             Ms. Alaburic, you may proceed.

Page 48625

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I

 2     sincerely thank you for assuming the responsibility to ask these

 3     questions, saying that you were the one who initiated this exchange.  It

 4     certainly wasn't my intention.

 5        Q.   I believe we have sufficient time now for the next document on

 6     which I will be requiring your brief comments, P2019, 2019.  These are

 7     minutes from a meeting held on the 21st of April, 1993, attended by

 8     representatives of the BH Army and the HVO alike.  It was put together --

 9     the document was put together by Tihomir Blaskic.  What I want to know

10     about is a particular sentence by Sefer Halilovic which was addressed to

11     Petkovic, and Petkovic's reply.

12             This is, roughly speaking, midway through the document.

13     Sefer Halilovic says:

14             "Your leading politicians advocate the creation of a Croat state

15     in BH territory."

16             Petkovic replies, I quote:

17             "Well, you ought to be reasonable enough to know that Croatia

18     cannot go for the annexation of BH territory, in which case it would lose

19     some of its own territory.  Nevertheless, you are simply looking for

20     reasons to disagree."

21             Mr. Jasak, given your familiarity with General Petkovic, and the

22     fact that you were an intelligence officer with the Main Staff, can you

23     please comment on General Petkovic's clarification?

24        A.   General Petkovic's explanation is perfectly understandable.

25     Croatia was in no position to consider altering its borders in any way in

Page 48626

 1     the territory of the former Yugoslavia.  It was the Badinter Commission

 2     that determined the borders, and the borders were not to be changed in

 3     any way.  The borders as established under AVNOJ, A-V-N-O-J.  Croatia was

 4     perfectly aware that with one-third of its own territory under someone

 5     else's control, any attempt it may have made at messing around with the

 6     borders would have threatened its very existence.

 7        Q.   Mr. Jasak, who was controlling this one-third of Croatia's

 8     territory that you have just referred to?

 9        A.   It was the Serb forces.

10        Q.   What about these Serbs in Croatia; did they want to carve off

11     this one-third of Croatia and see it annexed by Serbia?

12        A.   Yes, that was the plan.  It was the plan for a Greater Serbia.

13     The Karlovac-Karlobag border was supposed to mark its western border,

14     western-most border.

15        Q.   By raising the issue of Bosnia-Herzegovina's borders, would that

16     not also raise the issue of Croatia's borders, and would that not have,

17     in a way, helped the Serbs to achieve their own goal in Croatia, in terms

18     of taking away part of Croatia's territory?

19        A.   Yes, that avenue would then have been open.

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21             Your Honours, it's 7.00.  I think it's a good time for us to

22     stop.

23             Thank you, Witness.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed.

25             So you'll come tomorrow morning at 9.00, Witness.  You'll have a

Page 48627

 1     hearing from 9.00 until 1.45, and on Thursday we'll start at

 2     4.15 [as interpreted] and we'll most likely end up at 6.00 p.m.  I don't

 3     think that we will be done with the cross-examinations from the other

 4     accused.  We'll continue on Monday, and the Prosecutor will get his six

 5     hours.  Next week, we have four days, so we'll have enough time to

 6     conclude.  So please do not forget tomorrow to be back here at 9.00.

 7             Thank you very much.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

11                           January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.