Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 49735

 1                           Monday, 22 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Petkovic takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Registrar please call

 7     the case number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 9     everyone in and around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

11     et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Today, on this Monday, I would like to first of all greet

14     General Petkovic, who is our witness this week, and will be our witness

15     over the following weeks.  I would like to greet the accused as well, the

16     Defence teams, Mr. Scott and all his colleagues and assistants, and I

17     would also like to greet everyone else assisting us.

18             First of all, I would like to provide you with a piece of

19     information of an administrative nature that concerns April, the month of

20     April.

21             First of all, as I have already said, there will be no hearing on

22     Monday, the 19th of April; on Tuesday, the 20th; on Wednesday, the 21st

23     of April; and on Thursday, the 22nd of April.

24             In addition, the Chamber has taken into account Mr. Karnavas'

25     intervention last time, and we have also taken into account the comments

Page 49736

 1     that Mr. Scott made.  And, therefore, the Chamber has also decided that

 2     on Tuesday, the 6th of April, and Wednesday, the 7th of April, no

 3     hearings will be held.  So the 6th and 7th of April.  And this means that

 4     the Coric Defence should schedule its witness in accordance with these

 5     decisions.  They should take these dates into account when compiling

 6     their schedule.  We will resume on the 8th of April, for example, and on

 7     the 8th of April you could call a witness, who will witness on that day.

 8     It's for you to see.  I know this is an extremely complicated exercise,

 9     calling witnesses is a complicated exercise, but it's best to be aware of

10     these facts in advance.  That's what I wanted to inform you of.

11             General Petkovic, I am now going to continue putting my questions

12     to you.  Last week, I said that I would deal with the issue of a criminal

13     enterprise.

14                           WITNESS:  MILIVOJ PETKOVIC [Resumed]

15                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, General Petkovic.  Is

17     there something you wanted to say?  You raised your hand.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour Antonetti.  With

19     your leave, I'd like a minute to add certain things to what I said the

20     previous day.  I think it's very important.  So with your leave, before

21     you continue, I'd like to add a few things.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Antonetti, this has to do

24     with the subject of my testimony on the first two cases.  I would like to

25     inform you of the fact that as a witness of the Chamber, it was my duty

Page 49737

 1     to fill in a form, state the conditions, and provide the Chamber with

 2     information.  The Chamber would answer the request and say they accept

 3     this, and then they would set a date for my testimony.  That's all I

 4     wanted to say.

 5             In one case, in accordance with the law and the Court's

 6     regulations, I personally had to inform the Chamber of certain things.  I

 7     did that in both cases, and I think that these documents form part of the

 8     archives.

 9             That's all I wanted to do say.  We can now proceed.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  With regard to what

11     we said last week, there are two follow-up questions I would like to put

12     to you before I deal with the issue of joint criminal enterprise.

13                           Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, General Petkovic,

15     I would like to know whether at any point in time --

16             MS. TOMANOVIC:  We don't have translation, Judge.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll start again.

18             General Petkovic, can you hear me?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's strange,

21     because whenever I want to put an important question, we have an

22     interpretation problem.  It's quite extraordinary.

23             So listen to my question carefully.  I would like to know,

24     General Petkovic, before the indictment was drawn up by this Tribunal,

25     had you been interviewed by the OTP or not?

Page 49738

 1        A.   No, Your Honour, no one interviewed me.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that when you came

 3     to testify in the Blaskic case, no one had put questions of any kind to

 4     you.

 5        A.   I don't know which questions you have in mind.  The questions put

 6     by the Chamber, the Prosecution, and the Defence, and afterwards no other

 7     questions were put to me.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  What I wanted to say is

 9     that before you came to testify in the Blaskic case, the OTP hadn't

10     established contact with you.

11        A.   That's correct, they hadn't established contact with me.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Over the weekend, I

13     thought about putting the following question to you.  We know that you

14     were a member of three armies, the JNA, the Croatian Army, and the HVO.

15     We know that for sure.  And perhaps you were also a member of the ABiH

16     army, but we'll see about that in the judgement.  What I'd like to know,

17     as you were a member of these various armies, did you find any

18     differences between these various armies?  And if so, what kind of

19     differences?

20             For example, I was in a certain functioning within a legal system

21     of a certain kind.  When I came here, I noted that there were certain

22     differences.  In my system, for example, I had the impression that we

23     were a lot more rigorous.  And, secondly, in my system the other judges

24     don't put questions.  It's only the presiding judge who puts questions.

25     So those are two main differences.  When I came here, I noted that the

Page 49739

 1     system was different.  So what I would like to know is whether you,

 2     yourself, when you moved from the JNA and joined the Croatian Army and

 3     then the HVO, did you notice any differences?  And if so, what kind of

 4     differences?

 5        A.   Yes, Your Honours, there were differences.  The JNA was an

 6     institution that had been formed throughout the war.  It established a

 7     structure of its own.  It had a certain continuity.  It had its officers,

 8     non-commissioned officers.  It had a system for operative deployment

 9     which had been developed.  That was for the entire JNA.  There was a

10     system of territorial defence, and everyone else included in this, and in

11     a certain system one knew exactly who the commander was of the

12     1st Detachment, for example, of the 3rd Company, of the 1st Battalion in

13     a certain partisan brigade.  He knew it, his family knew it, and so on

14     and so forth.  So it was a very organised system that had been developed.

15     For many years, people knew each other, and it had a basis of its own.

16             I'd also like to add, however, that when the war broke out in

17     that area and when that system -- when that structure started losing

18     certain members, Slovenians, Croats, and later Muslims, Bosniaks, it had

19     certain organisational problems and problems of different kinds.  When a

20     certain structure or system starts losing a certain number of members,

21     it's hard to bring it back up to strength.  But, nevertheless, it was a

22     system from the lowest unit up until a state which was completely

23     integrated; it had its developed plans, plans that had been fully

24     developed.  Whereas, on the other hand, the Croatian Army couldn't

25     structure itself while Croatia was part of the JNA.  It didn't lose its

Page 49740

 1     territorial defence.  Croatia had its own territorial defence, and that

 2     was strongest and best-equipped territorial defences in the former

 3     republics.  However, that system was a system it lost in its entirety.

 4     Not a single brigade, as far as I know, or reserve brigade or territorial

 5     brigade from that time, not a single such brigade remained as a whole

 6     within the Croatian Army, as part of the Croatian Army.  All of them,

 7     with some of the men and with all the equipment, were moved to the JNA

 8     side.  And that's what happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina, too, when the

 9     Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was dismantled, so to speak.

10             So the Croatian Army, and later the HVO and then the BiH -- well,

11     combat had already started.  The JNA had already taken its positions, and

12     they had to gather men, organise themselves, although they had no

13     developed commands or staffs.  They had to decide who would command whom,

14     and when.  So one went to war without having any sort of a system.  One

15     went to war against an army that had developed its structure over many

16     years.

17             So the differences were enormous.  In the JNA, you knew that if a

18     brigade consists of 2.500 men, then it will be there throughout the war.

19     Perhaps it will be brought up to strength, 30 per cent will be

20     reinforced.  But in the HVO, the Croatian Army and the ABiH knew their

21     system of working was brought in.  To maintain a brigade of 3.000 -- or

22     2.000 men, you had to mobilise 10.000 men over a three-month period,

23     because had you to take into account the social dimension, you had to

24     take into account the fact that people couldn't be separated from their

25     families for a very long time.  They had to remain in contact with their

Page 49741

 1     way the life, so such were the conditions.  The differences were great;

 2     you can't compare the JNA, which was an organised army at the time, with

 3     the armies that were being formed.  The Croatian Army became developed in

 4     front -- just before the Operations Storm and the other operation.  The

 5     Croatian Army had a stage when, in 1992, UNPROFOR came, and also the

 6     forces were minimal at the time at the UNPROFOR lines, the lines

 7     separated by UNPROFOR, and the other forces could train.  And that's how

 8     the Croatian Guards Brigades were formed, and later they demonstrated

 9     that they were stronger than the JNA brigades and the brigades of the

10     Army of Republika Srpska or the brigades of the Bosnian Serbs.

11             The HVO and the ABiH didn't have a single day to rest in order to

12     gather formed units and work with them and train them, so that was the

13     difference.  It was a significant difference, if you're familiar with

14     military structure.  So the Croatian Army started to develop before the

15     two operations, Flash and Storm.

16             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I'd

17     like to correct the transcript.  Page 7, line 3, it says that the general

18     said that the Croatian Army became a developed army just before the

19     Operations Flash and Storm.  It hasn't been correctly transcribed.

20     I think it's important, because it was in 1995.  So we want to know which

21     operations he had in mind.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's quite correct.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that answer,

24     which will help us to take into account these differences.

25             One last question before I deal with the joint criminal

Page 49742

 1     enterprise issue.

 2             Last week, you provided us with details of the dates when you

 3     were in Geneva to attend the conference.  Apparently you went there three

 4     times.  I don't have the transcript before me, however.  I would like to

 5     know where the conference was being held.  Was it in a hotel, or was it

 6     in the International Geneva Conference Centre, or was it somewhere else?

 7        A.   Your Honours, it was in the facilities of the International --

 8     well, I don't know if these facilities are UN facilities.  It was in the

 9     centre, as you called it.  It was a fairly large complex a few minutes

10     from Hotel International or Inter-Continental, whatever it is.  I thought

11     it was a complex that belonged to the UN or something like that.  So

12     that's where the conference was held.  It wasn't held in a hotel.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Were all the

14     delegations staying in the same hotel, or did they stay in different

15     hotels?

16        A.   No, Your Honours.  It depended on the reservations one managed to

17     make.  I was in the Hotel International on the first occasion and then I

18     spent time in some other mid-range hotels in the vicinity.  Well, you

19     know, in Geneva it's always quite crowded in the hotels, so on one

20     occasion you'd be in one hotel, on another occasion in another hotel, but

21     the delegations weren't always in the same place.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The delegation led

23     by Mate Boban, was that delegation in a hotel on its own, or were you

24     there together with a delegation from the Republic of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina.

Page 49743

 1        A.   Your Honour, the first time when I went there, I was in that

 2     hotel.  I think we were on the 13th floor; myself, Mr. Boban,

 3     Bila Mandzic, and two others who accompanied Mate Boban.  On the second

 4     occasion, I was there, Mr. Mandzic and another professor from Sarajevo.

 5     There was no place there, and it was also expensive, you know, so I don't

 6     really remember the name, but there was a small hotel perhaps 15 minutes

 7     away from the hotel we had previously stayed in, on foot, that's where we

 8     stayed.  I don't know whether there's a hotel called Hotel President or

 9     something like that.  Mr. Izetbegovic would sometimes be there.  The

10     Serbs were also there on one or two occasions -- or, rather, in the

11     Hotel International.  On the second occasion, I don't know where they

12     stayed.  And if we stayed in Hotel International, then there were two or

13     three floors that separated the delegations, and there was security that

14     was present.  They were in civilian clothing.  There was security for

15     each delegation present there.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now for my last question.

17     When you would meet with the delegations, was there a little flag on the

18     desk, or no flag, just the names saying "The Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina," "Croatian Defence Council," and so on and so forth?

20        A.   Judge Antonetti, these were plenary sessions.  The only

21     information provided concerned the identity of the people sitting at

22     certain places.  There was the delegation from Yugoslavia at the first

23     table.  Then there was the delegation from Croatia.  And then we, from

24     the HVO, were there.  Next to me there was Mr. Izetbegovic's delegation.

25     So we were sitting in a circular fashion.  Representatives were in front

Page 49744

 1     of us, and no one had flags or signs of any kind in front of them.

 2     I think that all we had were names in front of each individual.

 3             Sometimes we would go to the chairman's office.  He would call

 4     the delegation to talk about constitutional principles or maps.  The

 5     discussion would last for an hour or two, and then a second delegation

 6     would go there, and during that time others would remain in some other

 7     office, a small office.  That's where they would wait.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, I'm putting a

 9     very technical question to you.  I, myself, participated in such

10     international conferences, and I know how things can proceed.  I'll

11     conclude with a minor technical detail.

12             Did you have a badge on you that allowed you freedom of movement,

13     or were there no badges for anyone?

14        A.   Your Honours, we didn't have any badges, signs of any kind, but

15     we were told in which areas we could move around in.  As far as I can

16     remember, the halls where plenary sessions were held and about

17     ten officers were concerned, there was a large hall and beyond those

18     premises it wasn't possible to go, no one could go anywhere else.  There

19     were sandwiches, there were drinks that were provided.  One could help

20     oneself to these things.  And we'd stay there until 4.00, 5.00, or 6.00

21     in the afternoon, but no one could go out and walk around in other areas

22     of that complex.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the president of the

24     conference addressed you, Mate Boban, President Izetbegovic, Karadzic - I

25     assume he was there too - what would he say?  Would he say, Mr. Boban, or

Page 49745

 1     would he also add the title of the person he was addressing and his

 2     function?

 3        A.   Your Honours, as far as I can remember, as far as I can remember,

 4     it was just "Mr.," and the name of the person he was addressing.  But

 5     I think President Tudjman, Cosic -- once, I think, President Cosic was

 6     there, too, Milosevic, and Izetbegovic, he would use the expression

 7     "Mr. President."  But it depended.  Mostly, he would say, Gentlemen, but

 8     there was no direct communication.  It would be the first delegation

 9     would start speaking, and then the next, and after that we would have

10     bilateral contacts.  The military section went with General Nambiar to a

11     special room and would continue the discussion there.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  General Petkovic,

13     I'm now going to address the question of joint criminal enterprise

14     appearing in paragraph 15 of the indictment.

15             First of all, I wish to ask you, however, whether you had the

16     totality of the indictment in your own language.

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I did receive it.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Did you also have

19     the pre-trial document in your own language?

20        A.   Yes, I was informed with the pre-trial brief, through the

21     intermediary of my counsel.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As you know, as you

23     must have read and re-read this document, you know this, and I will

24     address the same -- I addressed it also to General Praljak, and you will

25     know that the Prosecutor says that from or before the 18th of November,

Page 49746

 1     this word "before" is important, 1991 to about April 1994 and thereafter,

 2     again an important word, various persons in the [indiscernible]

 3     established a joint criminal enterprise and participated in it in order

 4     to politically and militarily subjugate the Bosnian Muslims and other

 5     known Croats who lived in areas on the territory of the Republic of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina which were claimed to be part of the Croatian

 7     Community, and in brackets "(and later Republic of Herceg-Bosna)," and to

 8     permanently remove and to ethnically cleanse these areas, and to rally

 9     these in the short term or the long term, within a Greater Croatia,

10     either by annexation to the Republic of Croatia or in close association

11     with it, and to do so by force, fear, or threat of force, persecution,

12     imprisonment, and detention, forcible transfer and deportation,

13     appropriation and destruction of property, and other means which

14     constituted or involved the commission of crimes which are punishable

15     under Articles 2, 3, and 5 of the Tribunal's Statute.  The joint criminal

16     enterprise had, as its ambition, to establish a Croatian territory with

17     the borders of the Croatian Banovina, a territorial entity that existed

18     from 1939 to 1941.  It was part of the joint criminal enterprise to

19     engineer the political and ethnic map of these areas so that they would

20     be Croat-dominated, both politically and demographically.  That is what

21     the Prosecutor says with respect to this joint criminal enterprise.

22             What would be your reaction to this?

23        A.   My response, Your Honour, is that that is not true, and that it

24     doesn't correspond to the truth, and that the Croats in Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina had no intention of subjugating anyone, to discriminate

Page 49747

 1     against anyone in any way.  There was no intention on the part of the

 2     Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina to divide or cut up Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.  On the contrary, the Croats started the war in the

 4     intention of preserving Bosnia and Herzegovina, as they supported it as

 5     an independent state.  Therefore, I reject these statements in the

 6     indictment.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The persons who,

 8     according to the Prosecutor, participated in this enterprise, I'm going

 9     to tell you their name, and then I'm going to ask you about each one of

10     them.  The persons are the following:  Franjo Tudjman, president of the

11     Republic of Croatia, who died on the 10th of December, 1999;

12     Bosko [as interpreted] Susak, who died on the 3rd of May, 1998;

13     Janko Bobetko, general of the Croatian Army, who died on the 29th of

14     April, 2002; Mate Boban, president of the Croatian Community of

15     Herceg-Bosna and the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, who died in July 1997.

16     These are the people who are dead.  Now the living:  Jadranko Prlic,

17     Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, yourself, Valentin Coric, Berislav Pusic,

18     Dario Kordic, Tihomir Blaskic, and Mladen Naletilic.

19             We're going to cover all of them to see whether you knew them.

20             Mr. Tudjman, did you know him?  And if so, when did you meet him?

21        A.   Your Honours, of course I knew Mr. Tudjman, because I knew that

22     he wanted the elections in the Republic of Croatia -- or, rather, when he

23     started the election campaign, the first elections in the Republic of

24     Croatia.  I met President Tudjman for the first time in Geneva in January

25     1993, never before that date.  President Tudjman never came to Dalmatia

Page 49748

 1     to visit the army there, for me to meet him there.  My position in the

 2     Croatian Army was such that I didn't go to Zagreb, to the

 3     Main Headquarters, nor was I invited in any sense which would enable me

 4     to have contact with President Franjo Tudjman.  Therefore, my first

 5     contact with President Tudjman, when I was close to him, was when we were

 6     called by the co-chairman, and this meeting happened on the 2nd of

 7     January, 1993, in Geneva.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I am understanding you

 9     correctly, before the 2nd of January, 1993, you had no conversation with

10     President Tudjman?

11        A.   I did not, Your Honours.  I didn't have any conversations with

12     him.  I didn't have occasion to meet President Tudjman and to be anywhere

13     in his vicinity before that.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which means that before the 2nd

15     of January, 1993, if President Tudjman had an idea of creating a

16     Greater Croatia, he did not tell you about it before the 2nd of January,

17     1993, because you hadn't seen him before that date?

18        A.   Yes, quite so.  I hadn't seen him, I had no contact with him, nor

19     did I read anywhere that President Tudjman had any such intentions,

20     potential intentions.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let us move on to

22     Mr. Gojko Susak.

23             When did you meet him, and under which circumstances?

24        A.   Your Honour, also in Geneva, on the 2nd of January, 1993, because

25     Gojko Susak at the time was a member of the delegation of the Republic of

Page 49749

 1     Croatia.  Before that, I didn't have occasion to meet Gojko Susak.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, the same question.  Before

 3     the 2nd of January, 1993, so you were unable to discuss with Mr. Susak

 4     the Banovina, Greater Croatia, et cetera?

 5        A.   No, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us move on to number 3,

 7     General Bobetko.  When did you meet him for the first time?

 8        A.   Your Honours, on the 10th of April, 1992, in Ploce, in the

 9     Republic of Croatia.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the 10th of April, 1992,

11     what did he tell you on that date?

12        A.   On the 10th of April, 1992, I and General Bobetko discussed the

13     situation after the JNA and the VRS had attacked HVO in the

14     municipalities of Kupres, as a whole, a part of the municipality of

15     Tomislavgrad, a part of the municipality of Livno, and the possible

16     consequences of the defeat of the HVO regarding further developments in

17     Herzegovina but also the southern part of the Republic of Croatia.  And

18     because of this situation which was developing especially in Kupres,

19     General Bobetko travelled to the southern part of the Republic of

20     Croatia.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you met General Bobetko in

22     April 1992, did he discuss with you the issue of a Greater Croatia, the

23     Banovina, the plan to redesign the ethnic map of this region so that the

24     Croats would dominate?  Did he speak to you about all this?

25        A.   No, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.  He made no mention of any such

Page 49750

 1     things.  As I said, he mentioned developments in Western Herzegovina, the

 2     situation east of the Neretva, around the Neretva River, and how to

 3     liberate the part leading to the south of the Republic of Croatia in the

 4     direction of Dubrovnik.  That was the only issue that we discussed.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my understanding is that the

 6     meeting that you had with General Bobetko was focused exclusively on the

 7     defence of the Republic of Croatia, in view of the offensive by the

 8     Serbs?

 9        A.   Quite so, Your Honour, that is what we discussed, and how to halt

10     the Serb offensive -- or, rather, to launch a counter-offensive and

11     liberate the south of the Republic of Croatia, because forces of the UN

12     were not deployed there.  So Croatia was allowed, if possible, to

13     liberate the southern part of Croatia.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I move on to Mate Boban.  You

15     already told us last week, but as the transcript would be read in its

16     entirety, let me ask you the same question.  Can you tell me, once again,

17     when exactly you met Mate Boban?

18        A.   Your Honour, that was at the end of March 1992.  It was in

19     Metkovici, in the Narona Hotel, when I and my assistant for logistics

20     were meant to sign a contract with this hotel on the preparation of food

21     for the Croatian Army that was in the south of Croatia, and then a man

22     approached me, and I was later told and introduced to him as Mate Boban.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Did Mate Boban

24     address you, talking to you, or was he just there and you didn't have any

25     discussions between the two of you?

Page 49751

 1        A.   Your Honour Judge Antonetti, my assistant for logistics before

 2     the war was a commander of a large tourist settlement in the area of

 3     Split, and Mate Boban was the manager of a commercial enterprise in

 4     Imotski, which is the hinterland of Split, and they had very successful

 5     business relations throughout the period that Mr. Boban was the manager

 6     of this company, so they knew each other.  And that was how he introduced

 7     me to Mr. Boban.  That is how we met in that hotel.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.  So your assistant for

 9     logistics, as you told us last week, introduced you to Mate Boban.  And

10     on that occasion is Mate Boban going to say to you, Look here, I want to

11     re-establish the Banovina, I want a Greater Croatia, I want the Croats to

12     be the majority, et cetera, et cetera?  Did he tell you that?

13        A.   No, Your Honour Judge Antonetti.  Mr. Boban asked me to tell him

14     whether Neum was safe, because the Croatian Army had stopped the advance

15     of the JNA just in front of Neum, and whether Metkovic and the

16     Neretva River Valley were safe, and whether the Croatian Army could

17     defend these areas.  And I provided him with information to the effect

18     that for several months now the Croatian Army was holding positions there

19     and that the Serb forces had not managed to break through, and I said

20     that we hoped that we would continue to do so.

21             And then we talked about the situation in the Neretva River

22     Valley, because it was normal that we depended on developments in the

23     territory from Capljina to Mostar.  And he told us what he knew about the

24     forces which had already gained control over certain JNA facilities, and

25     we already heard about that from General Praljak.

Page 49752

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Mate Boban was the supreme

 2     commander of the HVO, and you were the chief of staff of the HV, the

 3     Croatian Army.  So these two positions, his own and yours, were you led

 4     to meet, and how frequently, and were there any witnesses, or were you

 5     just tete-a-tete, just the two of you alone?

 6             There's an error in the transcript.  I don't usually look at the

 7     transcript, but at the witness.  But in line 25, you were the chief of

 8     staff of the HVO and not the HV.

 9             Very well.  Could you answer, please.

10        A.   Your Honours, let me say first that Mate Boban was not the

11     supreme commander at the time.  These were just the beginnings of those

12     local units in the territory of Herzegovina, and I was an operative

13     officer in the headquarters of the Operative Zone of Split.  Those were

14     our respective positions.

15             And I never spoke to Boban tete-a-tete.  I think that our next

16     meeting or conversation occurred either on the 1st of April or between

17     the 1st and the 3rd of April, when he wanted to pass on that the JNA and

18     the VRS were definitely launching an offensive in the area of Kupres,

19     parts of Livno, and Tomislavgrad, and he asked me what the operative zone

20     would do, because the area of Cim and everything south of Split would be

21     at risk.  So I simply told him that the operative zone would monitor the

22     situation and that at this point in time the operative zone could not do

23     anything more than that.  But should combat operations start, we would

24     see what the Main Staff of the Croatian Army would do.

25             He then cautioned that it would be a good thing if the HVO were

Page 49753

 1     to be assisted in organisational terms, as it had no organisational

 2     structure yet, and that he really feared a forceful breakthrough from

 3     Western Herzegovina towards the Neretva River Valley and towards the

 4     Republic of Croatia.  That was the conversation we had then.

 5             And I don't know whether on the 4th, when the attack started,

 6     whether he called the operative zone in Split to inform it about it,

 7     because at that point in time I was in the Neretva Valley.  I was not in

 8     Split when the attack on Kupres started.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So during this period of time

10     until April 1992, you were in the Croatian Army's operative zone, but

11     could you now tell me, very precisely, when exactly you had a meeting

12     with Mate Boban, he as the supreme commander of the HVO, and you as the

13     chief of staff of the HVO.  When did this meeting -- this interview take

14     place?

15        A.   Your Honours, there was a meeting on the 12th of April, 1992, at

16     a point in time when the JNA managed to take control of the whole area;

17     that is to say, of Western Herzegovina.  And Mr. Boban arrived in Ploce

18     to ask General Bobetko whether somebody was really going to assist the

19     organisation of the defence to prevent Livno, Tomislavgrad, Prozor, and

20     other places from falling, and I wasn't the chief of the Main Staff at

21     the time.

22             Now, the next meeting was on the 14th of April, that is to say,

23     two days later, when I arrived in Grude.  And there was a -- and I got to

24     know Boban again for the third time, I met him again.

25             And on the 15th of April, 1992, you saw the order from

Page 49754

 1     General Bobetko to set up a forward command post in Grude.  And from that

 2     time on, I brought in -- on the 14th of April -- I was brought in on the

 3     14th of April.  I was only there three hours and returned to Ploce.  But

 4     in official terms, the document was written on the 15th of April, 1992,

 5     when -- and you saw my appointment as head of the forward command post

 6     with several other people from the HVO.

 7             And from that time on, I spent time on the territory of

 8     Herzegovina or, rather, in the HVO on a continual basis, because a few

 9     days prior to that date the HVO was established, had been established.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So if we have

11     understood this correctly, in your opinion it's from the 15th of April,

12     1992, that you were the chief of staff of the HVO.  At that point in

13     time, was your immediate superior Mr. Mate Boban, from the military point

14     of view?

15        A.   That is correct, but in 1992, not 1991.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you say that it

17     is correct.  In military operations of a defensive or "offensive," in

18     inverted commas, nature - I won't deal with the nuances now - in such

19     operations everything you did as the chief of staff, was everything you

20     did in that capacity strictly under the control of Mate Boban, the

21     supreme commander?

22        A.   If Mate Boban was the supreme commander, then nothing could be

23     done without his knowledge, without him giving the okay.  And they were

24     defence operations towards Livno and Tomislavgrad to begin with, and then

25     later on operations to liberate -- that is to say, in June 1992, to

Page 49755

 1     liberate the eastern bank of the Neretva River, and so on and so forth.

 2     And General Bobetko issued that part of the order.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So as far as the

 4     Livno and Tomislavgrad areas are concerned, you say that at the time the

 5     orders were issued by General Bobetko, a general of the Croatian Army.

 6     But in your opinion, when exactly did Mate Boban don his supreme

 7     commander uniform, the uniform of the supreme commander of the HVO?  When

 8     did he assume this role independently of the Croatian Army?  Or perhaps

 9     he wasn't independent.

10        A.   Your Honours, Mate Boban took on that function for the first time

11     on the 3rd of July, 1992, when the decree was passed governing the armed

12     forces.  Up until then, Mate Boban assigned himself as the president of

13     the HVO and president of the HZ-HB, and not as the supreme commander.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you say that the

15     key date is the 3rd of July, 1992.  If I have understood you correctly,

16     it is from that date onwards that Mate Boban assumed the role of the

17     supreme commander of the military HVO.  You have taken a solemn

18     declaration.  Please think about this carefully before answering.  But

19     could you tell me whether, from the 3rd of July, 1992, military

20     operations conducted by the HVO, under your authority of the chief of

21     staff of the HVO, could you tell me whether these operations were

22     strictly controlled by Mate Boban, or were these operations under the

23     control of the Croatian Army?

24        A.   Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, I've already answered that and said

25     that the first time the post of supreme commander was mentioned was in

Page 49756

 1     that decree.  Up until that time, Mate Boban did pass certain acts, but

 2     he didn't sign, himself, as the supreme commander, because that was

 3     implied.  As the president of the HZ-HB, he could pass certain acts, and

 4     it was understood that he was the person in command.  But as a post, the

 5     post of supreme commander, the date mentioned is the 3rd of July, 1992.

 6             Now, in the border belt along the Neretva River Valley and

 7     towards Tomislavgrad, in those first three months, the orders were issued

 8     by General Bobetko.  Mate Boban, and you saw this in some of the

 9     documents we looked at, dealt with other issues and other situations, but

10     he was also politically involved in respect of these orders.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So could you tell me, and it's

12     very important, when, as far as you know, General Bobetko ceased issuing

13     orders to troops in the field?

14        A.   Your Honours, that was in September 1992.  That was the

15     definitive date.  His last order was on the 13th of July, 1992, when he

16     issued an order according to which parts of the Croatian Army which were

17     located in the border belt should pull out towards the territory of the

18     Republic of Croatia.  Otherwise, the last meeting that he held was in

19     September 1992, and then the entire command on the territory of the

20     HVO -- well, the Main Staff of the HVO came to command the entire area

21     and the whole of the HVO.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So we are making

23     progress, because you were very precise there.  You said that as of

24     September 1992, General Bobetko ceased to issue orders.

25             I will now deal with a very specific case to verify what you have

Page 49757

 1     just said.  I'll take the situation in Prozor, Rama, as you wish, in

 2     October 1992.  There were problems.  I won't go into the details, because

 3     we spent hours discussing them.  General Praljak explained to us that he

 4     went to the field to solve those problems.  But you are testifying now,

 5     not General Praljak.

 6             When these events occurred, could you tell me whether at any

 7     point in time you, your subordinates, and even General Praljak, before

 8     doing anything else, before taking decisions of any other kind, did you

 9     pick up the phone, phone Zagreb, General Bobetko, Tudjman, Susak, in

10     order to ask them what you should do; or were the Prozor events dealt

11     with entirely by the HVO in a fully independent manner?

12        A.   Your Honours, let me first say this:  General Bobetko at this

13     point in time was dealing with the problem that he faced with the

14     Yugoslav People's Army, which, on the basis of an agreement between

15     Bobetko, Strugar and General Morillon, of the 15th of October, was

16     supposed to pull out of the southern reaches of the Republic of Croatia

17     east of Dubrovnik and to withdraw to the territory of Montenegro, which

18     was the former Yugoslavia at the time.  So General Bobetko in no way came

19     into this area, least of all did anybody call Franjo Tudjman up, or

20     Gojko Susak.  And I think it was three days before that that I already

21     started to prepare the operation in the Neretva River Valley against the

22     Serbs which, from the Republic of Croatia, were engaged in withdrawing

23     from that territory.  And on the 18th, I think it was, I had already

24     started to take up resources from the Operative Zone of South-West

25     Herzegovina and transfer them to the Neretva River Valley.  Three

Page 49758

 1     Howitzers of 122 millimetres, that's what I took.  Yes, three Howitzers

 2     of 122 millimetres.  And I think that was on the 17th or 18th of October.

 3     And I transferred them from that operative zone, that is to say,

 4     North-West Herzegovina, to the Neretva River Valley, with all the crews,

 5     with the ammunition, and all the other equipment.  So at that point in

 6     time, all of us were engaged in preparing the operation in the

 7     Neretva River Valley, and that because the JNA forces and the Serb

 8     volunteer forces from the south of Croatia were pulling out, they were

 9     withdrawing to Eastern Herzegovina, and their attempt was that if they

10     had lost the coast, they could return to the Neretva River Valley.  So we

11     were all geared towards this part and focused on the Neretva River

12     Valley.

13             So nobody at that point in time gave any thought to Prozor or any

14     events -- or thought that anybody would be happening in Prozor.  The only

15     thing we did think about was Jajce, which, to all intents and purposes,

16     had all but fallen.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you're saying

18     that in October, the HVO's concern and the concern of the Croatian Army

19     was the Neretva Valley, they were concerned with the Neretva Valley,

20     where there was a Serb presence, so we should, therefore, conclude that

21     the Croatian Army wasn't concerned at that point in time with the

22     HVO-ABiH issue; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's right, Your Honour.  Just one correction.

24             The Croatian Army at that time was not in the Neretva Valley.

25     The Croatian Army was at the border between the Republic of

Page 49759

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, from Popovo Polje, and that's the place

 2     where Vojislav Seselj was born, stretching towards the border with

 3     Montenegro.  Now, the HVO was now in control of the territory east of the

 4     River Neretva, Stolac municipality; not the whole of it, but 80 per cent

 5     of it, Eastern Mostar, Bijelo Polje, and so on, and was preparing for the

 6     operation I mentioned because of the concentration of Serb forces which,

 7     when they were pulling out of Croatia, instead of going to Montenegro,

 8     were coming in to the Trebinje-Nevesinje area and these municipalities to

 9     go back to the Neretva River.  That was their goal.  So they were

10     defeated in Southern Croatia, but they wanted to seek satisfaction by

11     going back to the Neretva River Valley.  So the HVO had to start

12     preparations for such an attack, and that was done at the beginning of

13     November; 1992, that is.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  General Petkovic,

15     I'm putting these questions to you because in a certain manner I'm

16     handicapped.  I don't have at my disposal all the military documents from

17     the Croatian Army.  Similarly, I don't have at my disposal all the HVO

18     military documents, and I don't have all the Serbian forces' documents at

19     my disposal either.  If I had all these documents at my disposal, I would

20     place them before me, and I would compare these documents and try to

21     determine whether, in Prozor-Rama, there was contact between the HVO and

22     the Croatian Army, because there may have been orders, summaries,

23     telephone intercepts.  The Serbs may have certainly intercepted certain

24     calls, and the truth would have come out.  But as I don't have these

25     documents, I'm putting these questions to you in this blind manner, and

Page 49760

 1     you are answering them under oath.

 2             So if I have understood matters correctly, in October 1992, when

 3     the Prozor events transpired, the Croatian Army, according to what you

 4     have said, was not at all concerned, not at all involved.  So you have

 5     said this to me under oath.  Perhaps the Prosecution will produce a

 6     telephone intercept or a document from his hat.  I don't know.  But you

 7     are saying that in October 1992, Serbs were one's main preoccupation, not

 8     the tensions between the HVO and the ABiH.

 9        A.   That is correct, Your Honours, the Serbs were the Republic of

10     Croatian's main preoccupation in October 1992, because Dubrovnik had been

11     de-blocked, the south of Croatia had been liberated, and all that had to

12     be done was to wait for the Yugoslav Army and parts of the Serb forces to

13     pull out of the territory of the Republic of Croatia.  And then along the

14     border -- along the border belt, that the UN observers should take up

15     their positions.

16             So that was the time and area when General Bobetko and the

17     Croatian Army -- where the Croatian Army did not have any other

18     possibility.  It sent all its forces to Dubrovnik to liberate the south

19     of the Republic of Croatia finally, and it managed to do so in October

20     1992.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So I'm not going to

22     insist on the Prozor municipality, but to remind everyone of the

23     following.  The events in Prozor are mentioned in paragraph 43, 44, 45,

24     46, 47, 48, 49, and in the following paragraphs, but mainly in those

25     paragraphs.  But I will read to you paragraph 49, and you will answer the

Page 49761

 1     question I will then put to you.  Listen to me carefully:

 2             "On the evening of the 24th of October, 1992, an area HVO

 3     commander reported that Prozor town was 'ethnically pure,' the Muslim

 4     population having been detained or having fled."

 5             And listen to what follows carefully:

 6             "On the 26th of October, 1992, Bruno Stojic, Milivoj Petkovic,

 7     Janko Bobetko and others were informed that the HVO had taken control of

 8     Prozor on the 25th of October, with many casualties on the Muslim side."

 9             So the Prosecution is stating very clearly that Mr. Bobetko was

10     familiar with these facts.  What do you say about that?  He was familiar

11     because he was informed of them?

12        A.   Your Honours, first of all, I don't know where this man gets the

13     right, who did not command anything in Prozor, to write something like

14     that, to write a report like that to Janko Bobetko.  So let's see what

15     rank that person held, this Mr. Schmidt in Prozor.  And he enumerates

16     what he does and sends out this information to Janko Bobetko.  Why he did

17     that, I really don't know.  But I maintain that Janko Bobetko has nothing

18     to do with Prozor.  Now, why this person mentions him in this regard, I'm

19     really not quite clear on that.  And I don't know where they sent this

20     report.  I don't have the document in front of me, but I have seen it.

21     And I can also say that if you compare two documents, where it says

22     "ethnically pure," "ethnically cleansed," it was somebody who did not

23     know Croatian properly and copied it out from a document.  I think it was

24     from a document of the Rama Brigade, and it doesn't say "ethnically

25     cleansed," it says something quite different there.  And perhaps we can

Page 49762

 1     compare the two documents in due course and see.

 2             Anyway, this person had absolutely no reason for that -- to

 3     contact General Bobetko.  General Bobetko had his assignment in the south

 4     of Croatia, and so I don't know why this information -- because if I, as

 5     chief of the Main Staff, and other people who are mentioned don't feel

 6     the need to report this to General Bobetko, I don't know why this

 7     particular officer, holding that rank, took it upon himself to write to

 8     General Bobetko, and to write to me, or Stojic, or whoever else he was

 9     writing to, because he was not in the chain of command in Rama.  He was

10     just passing by, so it wasn't his job to do anything like that or write

11     any reports at all.  He was supposed to go to Bugojno, which was his

12     place.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'll now move on

14     and deal with other members of the joint criminal enterprise, members who

15     are alive.

16             In the list, the first person mentioned is Mr. Prlic.  Could you

17     tell me when you met Mr. Prlic for the first time?

18        A.   Your Honour, I don't think I met him before this meeting was held

19     on the 3rd of July, 1992, because up until then, to be quite frank, apart

20     from Mr. Boban and apart from the people who were in Grude municipality,

21     I did not meet any other officers who were in Herceg-Bosna.  And as far

22     as I know, the government there and the authorities there, as of the

23     3rd -- they were formed on the 3rd of September [as interpreted], after

24     that date, and then they began functioning.  So I never met Mr. Prlic

25     before that.  I think that he was -- whether he was in Mostar or

Page 49763

 1     somewhere else, I'm not quite sure, but -- the 3rd of July.  So -- and

 2     perhaps August when he became president of the HVO, but not frequently.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  3rd of July.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd just like to

 5     correct the transcript.  In line 19, the word "officers" was used.  The

 6     general spoke about officials, officials whom he had not met.  So not

 7     "officers," but "officials."  Yes, that's right now, "officials."

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You say that you

 9     met Mr. Prlic on the 3rd of July, 1992, for the first time.  When you met

10     him, what was your impression of him, if you remember?

11        A.   Well, if I can joke about it, I thought it was my double, because

12     we were sort of -- had the same haircuts.  So people would say

13     "Mr. Prlic," and "Mr. Petkovic," so I was very happy to see that there

14     was somebody else who looked like me, who resembled me.

15             But joking apart, I heard from others about Mr. Prlic first.  And

16     people said, as far as I knew, that he was the director, whether up until

17     the war or before the war, the director of a large agricultural concern

18     in the Neretva Valley, perhaps one of the largest in Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina, and that he was very successful in that job.  Whether the

20     company was called Apro Herzegovina or whatever, but, anyway, it was an

21     agricultural concern.  It had vineyards, fruit, processing plants, and so

22     on and so forth.  So that's what I had heard about him before I met him.

23     And I think I also knew he was already working as a professor, whether at

24     the university or at some other schools in Mostar.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you must have met him on

Page 49764

 1     several occasions after the month of July 1992, I won't enter into any

 2     details.  In the conversations that you had with Mr. Prlic, did he tell

 3     you that he was there to recreate the Banovina, that he was there for the

 4     Greater Croatia, that he was there to achieve Croatian majority,

 5     et cetera, et cetera?  Did he tell you all those things in order to share

 6     with you this -- a common project, in a sense?

 7        A.   No, Your Honours.  In my first contact with Mr. Prlic, except for

 8     the introduction, saying who I was, where I came from, et cetera, we

 9     didn't discuss anything else.  And I can tell you that I did not meet

10     Mr. Prlic so frequently, because his position was such that he had a

11     group of people he was working with, whereas I, until August or

12     September, stayed in Grude, then I moved to Mostar, but even in Mostar we

13     were not close to one another, except when there was a concrete

14     invitation to attend a government meeting.

15             Let me just tell you that the only time I sat down to have lunch

16     with Mr. Prlic was the day when I was leaving Herceg-Bosna on the 5th of

17     August, 1994.  Never before that did we sit down to have a drink, or have

18     lunch, or anything like that.

19             So I didn't have conversations with various officials of

20     Herceg-Bosna.  And as far as I can remember, Mr. Prlic did not come

21     frequently to Grude.  Where he went after his working hours, was it

22     Citluk, Makarska, I don't know where his parents or his family were

23     living.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said at a certain point

25     that you didn't frequently meet with him, except when there were meetings

Page 49765

 1     of the government; page 30, line 12.  Could you tell me, what were these

 2     government meetings?

 3        A.   Your Honours, you have seen documents that have been admitted

 4     into evidence here.  Was it three times that I was invited to attend a

 5     government meeting to present the military situation in certain areas?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me what, for

 7     you, the president of the HVO represented, the function that Mr. Prlic

 8     exercised?  What was it, in fact, this position president of the HVO?

 9        A.   For me, or at least that was the interpretation, that it was a

10     provisional executive body which was intended to assist lower-level

11     bodies of authorities; that is, municipal organs of authority.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're telling us this is a

13     provisional executive body.  Those were the words you used.  This

14     provisional executive body --

15        A.   Yes, quite.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- by what was it later

17     replaced, to the best of your knowledge?

18        A.   On the 28th of July, or maybe the 27th of August - I don't want

19     to guess - it became the Government of the Croatian Republic of

20     Herceg-Bosna, when there were discussions about the union of republics of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a possible structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that the Republic

23     of Herceg-Bosna came into existence on the 27th or 28th of July, 1993,

24     which is not in the transcript, but I think that is the correct date.

25     And in this Republic of Herceg-Bosna, what was the role of Mr. Prlic?

Page 49766

 1     Was it the same role that he played before, or had his role evolved,

 2     developed?

 3        A.   Yes, it was the same role.  It was a provisional organ of

 4     authority in the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, though it was at the

 5     time called the government.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I shall come back

 7     to my question once again.  You are saying that the Republic of

 8     Herceg-Bosna was a temporary or provisional body.  Could you tell me, by

 9     whom was this -- by what was this provisional body substituted?

10        A.   Your Honour, when I say "provisional body," we had to wait for

11     the end of negotiations on the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan and the

12     establishment of a union of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That was the solution

13     suggested by the international community, and I believe that all those

14     who held certain positions at the time did so on a provisional basis.

15     And once a signature had been placed on the document as a result of

16     agreement of all parties, the situation would change.  And until such a

17     document was signed, in my view, all this was temporary.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Here again we come

19     to an extremely important question.  When I put important questions, I

20     issue a warning first.

21             Could you tell me if Mr. Prlic, in his capacity as president of

22     the HVO and later within the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, as a temporary

23     organ, did Mr. Prlic give you orders of a military nature; that is,

24     offensive action, defensive action, control of your acts and movements,

25     from the military standpoint?

Page 49767

 1        A.   Your Honours, the government is no operative commander, and it

 2     does not issue commands.  The government, at its meetings, discusses

 3     military issues, takes decisions, makes conclusions which later on,

 4     through the Defence Department and the Main Staff, may be transformed

 5     into certain orders.  But the government is not an operative commander,

 6     but it does have the right to adopt decisions, conclusions, and

 7     recommendations at its meetings, even when matters of defensive -- of a

 8     defensive character are discussed.  But it does not have the right to

 9     issue direct orders.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your reply is in the

11     transcript, and you say that in your view, the government does not have

12     the competence to issue orders of a military nature?

13        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I said that the government does not have the

14     competence to issue military orders, but the government, when reviewing

15     certain issues, may adopt conclusions, decisions, recommendations which,

16     through the institutions such as the Defence Department, could reach the

17     Main Staff or could be addressed for consideration by the supreme

18     commander.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Petkovic, you have told us last week that

20     the military were under the control of the political authorities.  Now, I

21     wonder how this is to be reconciled, what you are telling us today;

22     namely, that in a way the civil authorities had no authority over the

23     military.

24        A.   Your Honour Judge Trechsel, that is not what I said.  I said that

25     they could not issue operative orders.  But within the framework of the

Page 49768

 1     executive authority, be it provisional or a government, there is a

 2     defence department, and through the Defence Department the civilian

 3     authorities do have influence, within certain limits, on the defence

 4     structure, that is, the army, the armed forces.  On the other hand, at

 5     government meetings there were briefings about the situation on the

 6     battle-field, and the government would pass recommendations or

 7     conclusions or decisions as to what should be done.  After all, the

 8     government received six-monthly reports on these activities, so this

 9     could be viewed as civilian supervision or monitoring of the army.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, thanks to my

12     colleague's question, I may perhaps refine a question further.

13             If my understanding is correct, the government could make

14     suggestions, or recommendations, or assessments of a situation, but the

15     taking -- the final taking of a decision would fall upon either the

16     headquarters or the supreme commander, either the Main Staff or the

17     supreme commander, but under no circumstances would it be the government.

18     Is that how we should understand your answer?

19        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  When we are talking about direct operative

20     commands, those are not done by the government.  But if we are talking

21     about recommendations, decisions, or conclusions, they can either go

22     through the Defence Department to the Main Staff or such recommendations

23     may, through a different channel, be addressed to the supreme commander.

24     And we have seen several such documents.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a theoretical

Page 49769

 1     example, which does not relate to any particular situation, to understand

 2     properly what you're saying, because this is -- it is extremely difficult

 3     and complicated.

 4             Let us imagine, in a certain situation, that there is a

 5     government meeting.  You're attending that meeting, and the

 6     Defence Department says, for instance, the following:  In such and such a

 7     municipality, we have so many soldiers.  We are in an inferior position

 8     in relation to the ABiH.  It would be highly desirable to mobilise

 9     further, even to bring professional military units, even to

10     re-subordinate certain brigades.  That would be the best solution, from

11     the logistic point of view, so as not to lose ground, militarily, and to

12     safe-guard the interests of Herceg-Bosna.  The Defence Department

13     provides such an analysis and makes a proposition or a recommendation.

14     Does this mean that in this case that I have just described, the final

15     decision will be up to you, as chief of the Main Staff, or would it be up

16     to Mr. Boban; that is, that you and Mr. Boban may be in agreement with

17     the recommendation, but it is you who would decide, or maybe you are not

18     in agreement, and in that event the decision may be a different one?

19        A.   Your Honour Judge Antonetti, in your question there are things

20     that the chief of staff could do and also things that the supreme

21     commander should do.  For instance, if certain brigades needed to be

22     pulled out from a certain territory, then such a request would be

23     addressed to the supreme commander for him to decide that such and such a

24     brigade should leave a certain terrain and move to another.  However, if

25     the decision would be to request additional mobilisation to reinforce the

Page 49770

 1     forces, then the Main Staff needs to establish the defences and to

 2     protect the interests of the Croats in that area.

 3             In one's work, one has to be very precise as to whom one should

 4     address.  It's not possible to ask a question and leave it up to either

 5     the Main Staff or the supreme commander to decide.

 6             You have seen here in the proceedings that there was a request to

 7     move certain brigades, and this was addressed to the supreme commander.

 8     So some things that were reviewed were directly addressed to the supreme

 9     commander, and there were other things, other requests, that were

10     addressed to the Main Staff for it to protect the Croatian territory in a

11     certain area that was at risk, specifically, the situation in Konjic, or

12     decisions of the 17th of April by the government to protect the Croatian

13     areas, but also to engage in negotiations with the other side to deal

14     with it by peaceful means.  So these things had to be addressed either --

15     or proposed either to the supreme commander or the Main Staff, but not to

16     leave it up to someone to choose who would be the one to make the

17     decision.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the basis of this

19     theoretical example and your answer, I have to conclude that, in any

20     event, it is either the supreme commander or the chief of staff who would

21     decide, and never the government.

22        A.   Quite.  I said that the government proposes, and I have mentioned

23     two specific examples from June 1993, addressed to the supreme commander,

24     and another one from April that was addressed to the Main Staff, to

25     strengthen the defences of certain Croatian areas, but also to engage in

Page 49771

 1     political discussions with the other party.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So we'll have the

 3     break now.  I'll leave the subject of Mr. Prlic now, and after the break

 4     we'll address the subject of Mr. Stojic.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume.

 8             Mr. Stewart, there's something you'd like to say?

 9             MR. STEWART:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

10             It's just this: that the Prosecution has responded to a motion

11     from the accused Coric, or motions -- requests from the accused Coric and

12     the accused Praljak.  Their request, those co-accused, was to directly

13     cross-examine Mr. Petkovic.  The Prosecution response includes a request

14     that if that application on behalf of Coric and Praljak is granted, they

15     should have additional time, by reference to the guide-lines, to

16     cross-examine Mr. Petkovic.  Your Honours, we were not the people who --

17     we were not the Defence who filed the original motion or, of course,

18     responded, but we would ask leave to reply on that particular point.

19     Clearly, that affects us and the Petkovic Defence, but, in a sense, we've

20     not yet participated in this particular exercise.  So may we have leave,

21     under 126 bis, to put in a reply dealing with that particular point in

22     the Prosecution response?

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stewart, I will hand down

25     an oral decision.  You will listen to it, and then you can see whether

Page 49772

 1     there are any other submissions you would like to make.

 2             MR. STEWART:  Very well, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber hereby hands

 4     down an oral decision on the requests made by the Coric and Praljak

 5     Defence teams, requests for the participation of the accused

 6     Valentin Coric and Slobodan Praljak in the cross-examination of

 7     Milivoj Petkovic.  It's a unanimous oral decision.

 8             The Coric and Praljak Defence have filed two requests on the

 9     participation of the accused Valentin Coric and Slobodan Praljak in the

10     cross-examination of Milivoj Petkovic.  This was done on the 9th and 15th

11     of February, 2010, respectively.

12             On the 19th of February, 2010, the Petkovic Defence and the

13     Prosecution informed the parties that they did not object to the accused

14     Valentin Coric and Slobodan Praljak participating in the

15     cross-examination of Milivoj Petkovic.  In its response, the Prosecution,

16     nevertheless, pointed out that it did not object to the requests,

17     provided that the points dealt with by the accused Valentin Coric and

18     Slobodan Praljak in the course of the cross-examination of

19     Milivoj Petkovic, were part of their specific expertise, in the sense of

20     what was stated in the Appeal Chamber's decision of the 11th of

21     September, 2008.  The Trial Chamber would like to point out that the

22     other parties did not file any responses to these two requests.

23             The Chamber would like to point out that paragraph 3 of

24     Guide-lines 1 of the decision of the 24th of April, 2008, authorises an

25     accused, represented by counsel, to directly address a witness in the

Page 49773

 1     course of that witness's cross-examination in exceptional circumstances

 2     and provided that this has been authorised by the Chamber.

 3             The Chamber, in addition, stated in its guide-lines, as it had

 4     already done in its decision of the 10th of May, 2007, that exceptional

 5     circumstances are linked either to examining issues with regard to which

 6     the accused has specific knowledge or to the examination of issues that

 7     concern events that the person personally participated in.

 8             The Chamber notes that in its decision of the 11th of September,

 9     2008, the Appeals Chamber pointed out that the assessment of the specific

10     competence of an accused by the Chamber should be carried out on a

11     case-by-case basis and should be done in a flexible manner.

12             As a result, the Chamber hereby decides to authorise the accused

13     Valentin Coric and Slobodan Praljak to participate in the

14     cross-examination of Milivoj Petkovic, provided that in the course of

15     their cross-examination, the accused address the issue of events that

16     they personally participated in or deal with certain matters for which

17     they have specific competence.

18             So this is our oral decision, which grants Mr. Praljak and

19     Mr. Coric leave to put questions to General Petkovic at an appropriate

20     time, but there are two conditions which have been set.  First of all,

21     the questions put must relate to specific competence that they may have

22     to military issues, or it is necessary for Mr. Coric and Mr. Praljak to

23     have participated in certain events, and in such a case they may put

24     questions to General Petkovic.  That is, therefore, our decision.

25             Mr. Stewart, in the light of what has just been said, is there

Page 49774

 1     anything you would like to ask us?

 2             MR. STEWART:  Well, Your Honour, thank you, I certainly see, with

 3     respect, the sense of hearing Your Honour's oral decision first in

 4     relation to that.

 5             The question which arises is whether it does -- whether it does

 6     leave alive the issue which we wished to address.  One view is that

 7     since -- since Your Honours, in giving a ruling on this motion by the

 8     Coric and the Praljak Defenses, and therefore, by the same token, on the

 9     Prosecution response, have not actually said anything about the

10     Prosecution request for additional time, that implicitly, Your Honours,

11     have not granted that request.  If that's correct, if Your Honours have,

12     in effect, implicitly rejected the Prosecution request in its response

13     for additional time, then I'll just sit down because there's nothing to

14     reply to.  But if that remains a live issue and is not yet firmly

15     resolved, then I do ask for leave to reply and deal specifically with

16     that point.  So I just need some clarification as to where we stand.

17     Well, Mr. Scott is literally standing, so he can tell me where he

18     metaphorically stands as well, and then we can proceed.

19             MR. SCOTT:  If I may, Your Honour.

20             I think there's not a major issue here.  The Prosecution's

21     position was, I think, that to the extent that the request otherwise

22     satisfy the jurisprudence of the Tribunal and the rulings this Chamber in

23     terms of allowing an accused to conduct cross-examine personally, we said

24     as long as it meets the usual rules, we have no further objection beyond

25     that.

Page 49775

 1             Secondly, we said that to the extent that on cross-examination

 2     new topics were raised, again keeping with the regular rules that if a

 3     new topic is raised, that it becomes direct examination, that direct

 4     examination has to time -- has to be charged against some sort of bank of

 5     available time, and no leading questions will be asked.  In the usual

 6     rule, no special favours, no special privileges being asked by the

 7     Prosecution.  But if that's the case and if there is additional direct

 8     examination under those rules, then the Prosecution gets the equivalent

 9     amount of time to cross on that -- on those points.  Those are the rules

10     of the Chamber for a long time.  That's all we said, was, depending on

11     what happens, we, of course, reserve the opportunity to request that the

12     normal rules apply.

13             Thank you.

14             MR. STEWART:  Your Honour, that does leave an issue.  It's a

15     narrow issue; it's not unimportant.  But the issues of no leading

16     questions and time counting against the bank of time for other accused,

17     those don't concern us.  We're not squabbling about those.  And to a

18     considerable extent, they're clear under the guide-lines.  But the very

19     last issue, and it's the only point on which we wanted leave to reply,

20     it's the only live point as far as we're concerned, is the very last

21     thing Mr. Scott said; that then he wants to have additional time.  That's

22     additional to what is the standard allocation under the guide-lines,

23     additional time equivalent to the time spent by Mr. Coric or Mr. Praljak

24     personally in cross-examining on topics which have not been raised on

25     direct examination by Ms. Alaburic in examining Mr. Petkovic.  So it's

Page 49776

 1     that single live issue, but it does apparently remain live.  And we have

 2     not yet -- without leave to reply, we have had no opportunity to deal

 3     with that -- we would have had no opportunity to deal with a point which

 4     does directly affect us.

 5             So that's the basis of my application, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The Chamber will

 7     meet tomorrow afternoon, and we will respond to what you have said, and

 8     we will also respond to what the Prosecution has submitted.

 9             MR. STEWART:  To what I've said, Your Honour, or to what we would

10     file by way of reply on the basis of the leave that I'm requesting?

11     That's -- is Your Honour giving -- our reply is -- well, for practical

12     purposes -- Ms. Alaburic will want to have a look at it.  It's for

13     practical purposes going to be ready to file.  So is Your Honour -- are

14     Your Honours giving me leave and then inviting me to file that pretty

15     much straight away so that Your Honours will be able to consider

16     everything in time to rule tomorrow?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, file your

18     submissions, then.

19             MR. STEWART:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, we will now

21     continue and talk about Mr. Bruno Stojic.  We know that you met him.  You

22     returned by car with him on the 9th of May.  But we'll start from the

23     beginning again.

24             On which day, exactly, did you meet Mr. Stojic for the first time

25     in your life?

Page 49777

 1        A.   Your Honours, the first time I met Mr. Stojic was on the 14th of

 2     April, 1992, when I arrived in Grude.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So prior to the 14th of April,

 4     1992, you had never seen him.  As in the case of Mr. Prlic, my question

 5     is:  What impression did you have of him?

 6        A.   No, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  So that means he didn't

 8     leave an impression of any kind?

 9        A.   I don't know who you are referring to now.  Prlic or to Stojic?

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To Mr. Stojic.  When you met

11     Mr. Stojic, what was your impression of him?

12        A.   Your Honours, it's impossible to decide what one's impression is

13     at the first meeting.  From the 15th of April, 1992, Mr. Stojic and I

14     worked together in the separate composition of the forward command post,

15     but Mr. Stojic was responsible for the logistics needs within that

16     forward command post.  And that's what we did until the 3rd of July,

17     1992, which is when Mr. Stojic was appointed by Mr. Boban to the position

18     of the head of the Defence Department.

19             As far as his duties are concerned, at the time he performed his

20     duties very well and to the extent that it was possible, logistically,

21     for him to do so.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say from the 14th of April,

23     1992, until the 13th of July, 1992, so for about three months, you had

24     contact with Mr. Stojic because he dealt with logistic matters.  When you

25     would meet, did Mr. Stojic express his personal political views, did he

Page 49778

 1     speak to you about the Banovina, Greater Croatia, about a Croatian

 2     majority that should be established, about the expulsion of Muslims, and

 3     so on and so forth?  Did he address all these matters, or did you talk

 4     about other things?

 5        A.   Your Honours, he didn't address such subjects because there were

 6     other issues at the time that had to be urgently dealt with, and I never

 7     spoke to Mr. Stojic or to anyone else about the issues that you have just

 8     listed.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Stojic became

10     the head of the Defence Department in July 1992.  In that capacity, at

11     the end of 1992 and in the course of 1993, and in 1994 too, would he tell

12     you, I have in mind, the desire to see once more a Croatian banovina, a

13     Greater Croatia, and so on and so forth?  Did he talk to you about such

14     things or not?

15        A.   No, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have another important

17     question for you.  Please listen carefully.  It's a new warning.

18             As head of the Defence Department and then as minister of defence

19     of the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, did Mr. Stojic give you orders,

20     instructions, relating to ongoing military operations or relating to

21     military operations that should be undertaken?

22        A.   Your Honours, Mr. Stojic, first of all, had to establish the

23     Defence Department as a body of the temporary executive authorities, and

24     together with that body, and they're responsible for the defence of the

25     Croats and areas inhabited by Croats and other peoples.  So that was the

Page 49779

 1     first task to be dealt with.  Mr. Stojic was at the head of a

 2     professional body which was part of the executive authorities, and he was

 3     a link between those authorities and the Main Staff, or, rather, the

 4     Armed Forces of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  Mr. Stojic, in

 5     the course of his work, had recourse to orders, decisions, solutions.  It

 6     depended on the situation that had to be dealt with.  He would deal with

 7     problems that were legally his responsibility, his responsibility

 8     pursuant to decrees.  Other decisions were matters that came under the

 9     administrative part of his work.  Mr. Bruno Stojic did not issue an

10     operative order to commence with operations of any kind in the territory

11     of the HZ-HB.  Such operations, apart from in 1992 -- well, there were no

12     such operations in the territory of the HZ-HB, apart from in 1992.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you have just

14     said that Mr. Stojic did not issue orders of an operational nature.  Let

15     me take an example.

16             Let us imagine that for an Operation X, you informed the minister

17     of defence that you need five tanks, artillery pieces, tonnes of food, so

18     many doctors, and you ask him that he take the necessary steps.  Let us

19     imagine that he says to you, It is out of the question, General Petkovic,

20     to engage in such a military operation, because I, as the defence

21     minister, believe that it should not take place for such and such a

22     reason.  Therefore, I will not allow it.

23             Is that possible or not?

24        A.   Well, it is possible, because he was the head of the

25     Defence Department, and so if he found that an operation -- well, we're

Page 49780

 1     speaking in principle, of course.  He could have put a stop to any

 2     operation of this kind if it was not considered to be in the interests of

 3     the defence of the territory on which the Croats were living, and others.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he did have the ability to

 5     prohibit an operation if, at his level, he felt that the interests of the

 6     defence of the territory did not require such an operation.  So you're

 7     telling me this.  Did this happen at all, or did it never happen?

 8        A.   Your Honours, something like that never happened.  Mr. Stojic

 9     would brief the authorities about a situation, and if tanks were

10     mentioned and so on, and if need be, he would make the requests that the

11     army needed.  He would ask the authorities, whether it be weapons, or

12     financial resources, or other materiel, or material resources, or

13     whatever.  So he also had to consult the authorities.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this brings me to

15     General Praljak.

16             When did you meet General Praljak for the first time?

17        A.   I think that was on the 19th of April, 1992, when I went to

18     Citluk and visited him there.  He was the commander of the Operative

19     Group of South-East Herzegovina, I believe, at the time.  So it was the

20     fifth day -- the fourth or fifth day after my arrival in the HVO.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was commander of the

22     Operative Zone of South-East Herzegovina of the HVO or the Croatian Army?

23        A.   The HVO, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the 19th of April, 1992,

25     you heard General Praljak mentioned.

Page 49781

 1        A.   No, I'm sorry.  I hope General Praljak won't mind -- won't be

 2     angry with me if I say that I didn't hear anything about General Praljak

 3     at all, because he was in quite another part of the Republic of Croatia.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the same question as for the

 5     others.  When you met him for the first time, what was the impression he

 6     gave you?

 7        A.   Well, I met a man who was very eloquent when speaking.  He was

 8     very demanding towards those whom he commanded.  He didn't like talking

 9     about certain matters much, and he had his very own way of going about

10     things; issuing orders, dispatching people, giving advice, counselling,

11     and so on.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you met him, did you know

13     that he had done some studies in the sciences, that he "converted," in

14     inverted commas, to theatrical art, that he engaged in politics, for he

15     was even a candidate in an important election, that he was assistant

16     defence minister in the Republic of Croatia, and that he left as a simple

17     volunteer to --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, the interpreter didn't hear this.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] S-u-n-j-a, Sunja.  The

20     interpreter should know all the localities.

21             Well, General Petkovic?

22        A.   Your Honours, not straight away, but after a time I learnt that

23     General Praljak was, indeed, in Sunja.  I didn't know that at the

24     beginning, because Sunja is quite a long way away from Dalmatia, and at

25     that time rest assured that the commander in one place wouldn't know who

Page 49782

 1     was in command in another, another part of the Republic of Croatia,

 2     because these were all people who were not military men to begin with and

 3     found themselves in a position whereby they were commanding, so you

 4     couldn't know who they were.  If you went to school, to a military

 5     academy with somebody, of course you would know them, but these weren't

 6     such people.  So until he introduced himself and told me, I didn't know

 7     that he was in Sunja and that he had been there for several months.

 8             But, anyway, we discussed his having worked in Germany, I think,

 9     as a young man, and that he had graduated from two or three faculties, or

10     however many.  And I also learnt - I can't tell you at what particular

11     time, but, anyway - that one of the jobs he did and one of his tasks was

12     as a film director.  That was one of his jobs.  He worked as a film

13     director, producer, and so forth.  So that that's the impression I

14     gained, learning about what he did.

15             I didn't know that he had taken part in any elections because

16     that was the time that I was in the JNA, and we didn't have the lists of

17     candidates, the nominations for the various parties or whatever.  But I

18     did learn later on from people, talking to people, that he had the

19     courage to put his name forward, to nominate himself.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the conversations that you

21     had with him when you met with him - that must have been several

22     times - did he talk to you about his project of participating in the

23     creation of a Greater Croatia, in the sense of creating a Croatian

24     territory within the boundaries of the former Banovina, and to achieve

25     that that it would be necessary to ethnically cleanse regions, that it

Page 49783

 1     would also be necessary to use force, persecution, imprisonment,

 2     detention, et cetera?  In a word, did he tell you that he had a project?

 3        A.   No, Your Honours, certainly not, no project, nor did he have his

 4     own project.  The first information that he gave me was when he talked to

 5     me at the beginning of April about taking in many people, Croats and

 6     Muslims, from the Dubrava Plateau and the problems he had had before

 7     that, and finally he told me of the Muslims he had in his units, and the

 8     preparations in Medjugorje, across the Neretva, and so on and so forth.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, the

10     Prosecutor reproached your Defence of glossing over or keeping quiet

11     about Prozor.  I will not do that.  We have heard -- let me start again.

12             It's always when I have important questions that there are

13     problems.  It's unbelievable.

14             General Petkovic, can you hear me?

15        A.   Yes, I can hear you now, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me start again.

17             The Prosecutor last week, you remember, said that your counsel

18     did not address the question of Prozor.  I'm going to address it, but I'm

19     not going to spend all my time in Prozor.

20             We have had a large number of witnesses here who came to speak

21     about Prozor.  General Praljak, who was in the witness box, explained

22     what was happening.

23             In October 1992, when General Praljak went to Prozor, did you

24     know that, and did you give your permission for it?

25        A.   I learnt -- I can't remember what date it was that

Page 49784

 1     General Praljak had been sent to Prozor by Mr. Boban, and that he had

 2     arrived with the assignment of dealing with the situation in the Prozor

 3     area.  Mr. Praljak and I at the time did not communicate -- we did not

 4     discuss Prozor.  I was in the Neretva River Valley throughout, in the

 5     Capljina area, and General Praljak was given his assignment.  And as he

 6     testified, he was involved in the Prozor municipality to help calm the

 7     situation down and to bring the situation back to what it was like before

 8     the incident broke out.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your answer points a finger

10     at a problem that I must have misunderstood; that is, your sphere of

11     competencies.

12             You say that, In October 1992, I was busy in the Neretva River

13     Valley, and Mate Boban asked him to go to Prozor to deal with the problem

14     there.  When you tell me that, I have in mind the fact that the chief of

15     staff, in October 1992, was you, that you were the number 1.  Why didn't

16     you, yourself, deal with the problem of Prozor?  Why leave it to

17     General Praljak ?  Is the reason for this that Mate Boban, himself,

18     decided that it would take place in this way?

19        A.   It is information which I received that that was why Praljak had

20     come.  And Praljak had lived for a time in the Prozor area, so he knew

21     the mentality of the people there, more or less, and he knew what the

22     situation was like in that part of the territory.  So as such, he was

23     given the assignment of going there, so he came to Prozor to deal with

24     the situation, along with Colonel Siljeg, and later on I think they were

25     joined by Bozo Rajic and members of the BH Army who became involved later

Page 49785

 1     on.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We know that

 3     General Praljak replaced you, and he did so, unless I'm mistaken, on the

 4     27th of July, 1993.  When did you learn that you were being replaced?

 5     Because, in fact, instead of being number 1, you became number 2, what

 6     was your reaction?  Was it a sanction against you, was it a decision of a

 7     political nature which was beyond you, or was it the fact they did not

 8     know how to compensate you properly by keeping you in your post, or was

 9     it Mr. Mate Boban who had a reorientation in mind of military activities?

10     There may be other reasons, too, but I'm just listing some of them off

11     the bat.

12        A.   Your Honour, on the 24th of July the hand-over of duty took

13     place, although Mr. Boban, in writing the order three days later, put the

14     date as the 27th, whereas on the 24th we informed the units that a

15     hand-over of duty had taken place.

16             Now, during my brief testimony, when asked by my own counsel, I

17     said, in response, that the decision made by Mr. Boban to undertake

18     Operation South and not to listen to my recommendations to the effect

19     that the HVO was incapable of undertaking such an operation at that time,

20     and his decision to bring in Mr. Dzanko and a whole team of some 20 men

21     together with Dzanko, and to give him -- beside me, to give him the 1st

22     and 3rd Brigade and an operative group which Dzanko brought with him,

23     made up of volunteers, had an influence on me.  Well, influenced me to

24     tell Mr. Boban that, Obviously the time has come for somebody else to

25     head the Croatian Defence Council and not me, in a situation of this

Page 49786

 1     kind.

 2             Let me just mention, in this regard, that there was a situation

 3     in mid-June when the two of us discussed a possible rotation for the head

 4     of the Main Staff.  I told Mr. Boban very courteously -- I said, Ten days

 5     will be sufficient for you to find a solution and to have somebody come

 6     in to take up that post, to replace me.  And depending on who is coming

 7     in, I shall decide whether I'm going to stay on and help or whether I

 8     will leave the territory, because, to be quite honest, Boban could not

 9     have forced me to remain in the area.

10             On the 21st, I think it was, of July, I was informed that

11     Mr. Praljak would be coming to replace me, that he would be appointed

12     chief of the Main Staff.  And faced with this situation, he asked me

13     whether I would stay on to ensure continuity.  And as I knew that Praljak

14     didn't heed any post or position, but was -- his main aim was to help

15     out, and that this was my objective too, I decided to stay on.  And

16     that's how Praljak and I continued working together.  And on the 24th of

17     July, we informed Mr. Boban that we were ready and willing to hand over

18     duty on that day, that I was to hand over my duty to him.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, you've told

20     us something that has not emerged up to now, and that is that talking to

21     Mr. Boban, you realised that perhaps, regarding strategy or options, you

22     were not in agreement with him.  And then you told him to replace you,

23     which he did.  So if my understanding is right, and I'm listening to

24     everything you are saying, the appointment of General Praljak was the

25     result of your own decision not to continue as number 1, and then

Page 49787

 1     Mr. Boban nominated General Praljak to take your place, with the

 2     assurances that you would be a tandem, that you would work with

 3     General Praljak.  Is that how things evolved?

 4        A.   Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, yes, precisely like that.  But let

 5     me also add that, well, I was a little taken aback when he said that he

 6     would bring in a team.  I was offended when he said he would bring in a

 7     team to command if I didn't want to.  And Luka Dzanko, as I said,

 8     appeared in the area, and then what happened happened.  After that, I

 9     thanked Mr. Boban and said that I could no longer continue to be the

10     number 1 man, but depending on who he's going to bring in to replace me,

11     I will decide whether I want to continue working or not.  And then he put

12     forward Mr. Praljak, and I agreed to remain and work together with

13     General Praljak so that we could undertake a reorganisation of the

14     command structure, which Mr. Boban accepted.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, you, who were

16     a Croat, as you were born in Croatia, you don't have the same attributes

17     as General Praljak, who is from Herzegovina.  You were a Croat.  Why

18     didn't you take advantage of this opportunity to return to the Croatian

19     Army and make a nice career, even perhaps - I don't know - becoming one

20     day chief of staff, like Marshal Tito?  Why stay?  Why did you not return

21     to Croatia?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  I'm sorry, "head of state" and not "chief of

23     staff."

24        A.   Your Honours, the first reason was that General Praljak arrived,

25     and I had known him for several months, him being in the area.  The

Page 49788

 1     second reason was that I considered that it would be a bad thing on my

 2     part if I were to leave those people altogether and the area altogether,

 3     because we were in a very difficult situation; the HVO, I mean, after a

 4     large-scale offensive by the BH Army, the fall of Bugojno, and everything

 5     else that happened to me and General Praljak.  And that's why I remained,

 6     and I was not bent on making a career and having a position in Croatia,

 7     and so on and so forth.  And, anyway, it's not easy to come by a

 8     prominent position in Croatia, either, because there were many candidates

 9     for each post.

10             I thought that while the war was still on in the area, it wasn't

11     a very opportune time to run after positions and careers, but that it

12     would be better to do the job -- your job properly where you were, and

13     then after the war anybody who wanted to could think about their careers

14     and the posts they wished to hold.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As you know,

16     General Praljak left his position in November 1993.  General Praljak told

17     us, when he was testifying like you are now, that he wanted to leave this

18     post for various reasons which could be linked to the fact that he didn't

19     have at his disposal all the material means, the men he needed, also for

20     reasons of health, et cetera, and so in the month of November 1993, he

21     left.  Some people linked his departure to the destruction of the

22     Old Bridge.

23             When he went, he was replaced by Ante Roso, not by you.  Was this

24     a replacement that was natural, or was it not you who should have come

25     back as number 1?

Page 49789

 1        A.   Your Honour, I know that Praljak talked to Mr. Boban and that he

 2     told him of the possibility of his leaving shortly.  Now, on that 8th,

 3     when the order was written, Mr. Boban's order to the effect that Praljak

 4     would hand over his duty, that also on the 9th I wasn't in the area of

 5     Herzegovina, and I learnt about this decision sometime in the afternoon.

 6     What happened was that General Matic rang me up and asked me if I knew

 7     what was happening.  I said -- I told him, Well, I don't know.  You tell

 8     me.  And he said, Praljak is leaving, Roso is coming.  That's one piece

 9     of news.  And the other piece of news is that Roso has said that in the

10     space of 20 hours we should all move from Citluk to Posusje.  And he

11     says, I don't know what I'm going to do if Praljak leaves tomorrow.  I

12     don't know how I'm going to be able to do that.  And I told him, Well, if

13     there's no need, then I will be in Posusje myself tomorrow, and we'll

14     agree how we're going to relocate from Citluk to Posusje.  So that was

15     the information I received.

16             Now, before that, I had never heard that General Roso was in any

17     combination that he was supposed to come in.  It was just on the

18     afternoon of the 8th that I learnt that General Roso was, indeed, coming

19     in to take up his duty, and I don't know why he asked to go to Posusje

20     and didn't want to remain in Citluk.  So on the 9th, the whole

21     Main Staff, to all intents and purposes, relocated to Posusje.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I could continue, but I have to

23     be brief.

24             I'll move on to Valentin Coric now.  Could you tell me when you

25     met him for the first time?

Page 49790

 1        A.   Your Honours, it was at the same time that I arrived in Grude.  I

 2     can't remember the date, whether it was on the first, second, or third

 3     day I was there, but that's when I met Mr. Coric and found out that he

 4     was responsible for the HVO police.  And, in fact, at the time he made

 5     the detachment in Grude responsible for partially securing the command,

 6     which is where I was, as well as the forward command post.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was your impression of him

 8     when you started having contact with him?

 9        A.   Well, my impression of Mr. Coric was that he was a very peaceful

10     man, a stable man, who had made efforts within his field of competence to

11     do the utmost, to do everything that was possible at the time.  I never

12     saw him in a situation -- I never saw him reacting in a given situation

13     in a noisy way.  I never saw him expressing himself in a manner that was

14     not appropriate.  I never saw him shouting, and so on and so forth.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Should one take it that he had

16     a personality that was somewhat different to that of General Praljak's?

17        A.   Well, General Praljak is a little more explosive.  In two or

18     three words, he wants to say what he wants to say, and that's why his

19     manner of communicating is different from Coric's manner of

20     communicating.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you spoke -- or when you

22     had the opportunity to speak to Mr. Valentin Coric, did he ever mention a

23     plan to re-establish the Banovina, to create a Greater Croatia, to

24     ethnically cleanse certain regions, and so on and so forth?  Did he ever

25     speak to you about such matters?

Page 49791

 1        A.   No, Your Honours, such issues were never on the agenda, so to

 2     speak.  When Mr. Coric and I spoke to each other, we would usually

 3     discuss organisational concerns.  We'd discuss the structure of the

 4     police and of the army.  We would discuss how well developed they were.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Listen to this question very

 6     carefully, because this question is at the heart of the matter.

 7             If I have understood matters correctly, the text correctly, the

 8     testimonies we have listened to correctly, the evidence, and so on and so

 9     forth, there's the military police, but the military police has two

10     components.  There's the military police that is attached to brigades, or

11     brigade command.  The brigade commander has military policemen at his

12     disposal who are responsible for order, for the brigade's security,

13     et cetera.  And then we also have military police units, the head of

14     which is Mr. Valentin Coric.  These MP units are well equipped, well

15     trained, competent, and if the order is issued, they may be sent in as

16     reinforcements for brigades involved in operations, they may participate

17     in military combat, and we have seen certain documents that show that.

18     There were a lot of wounded and dead in these units.  Is that, in fact,

19     the way in which the military police is structured?

20        A.   Your Honours, as far as I'm concerned, we had one military

21     police, not two, but some of them were responsible for duties that were

22     performed in brigades within the HVO.  The other part of the military

23     police initially was structured in the following manner:  You mentioned

24     combat operations, but there's just one military police battalion that

25     was capable of engaging in combat and that was intended for such combat.

Page 49792

 1     That was the 1st Light -- the 1st Assault Brigade, Light Assault Brigade,

 2     and the Military Police Administration could issue orders according to

 3     which they could operate throughout the territory of the HZ-HB.  And

 4     according to the regulations, they were linked to the MP administration.

 5             The situation changed towards the end of July.  I couldn't tell

 6     you the exact date.  It was in 1993, which is when the military police

 7     was reorganised in a drastic way.  And according to the new structure,

 8     the military police had four such battalions, so-called light assault

 9     battalions, and their exclusive responsibilities concerned combat in a

10     given area.  And the military police had four so-called standard military

11     police battalions that were responsible for carrying out combat tasks,

12     but the military police -- the situation within the military police was

13     dealt with in this way, pursuant to the decisions of the

14     Defence Department in July.  This was confirmed in an order from the

15     chief of the Military Police.  In certain situations, such units could be

16     subordinated to the commander of the headquarters and to someone who had

17     been authorised by him, and in such cases they would carry out combat

18     tasks.

19             Similarly, a decision could be taken - we've seen this

20     already - according to which, at least if it was a matter of defence, if

21     it was a priority matter, some of the units that weren't part of the

22     light assault battalions could be temporarily re-subordinated to an HVO

23     unit to carry out a certain task.  Why did the police have so many

24     casualties?  Well, the light assault units were -- or battalions were

25     combat battalions, and they were sent into the field, they were

Page 49793

 1     considered to be better than the standard HVO units, and as a result they

 2     would have more casualties.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I'd

 4     like to correct the transcript.  I think that in line 6, what the general

 5     said about the main task hasn't been corrected noted.  The four standard

 6     battalions of the military police are concerned, and I don't want to

 7     repeat this.  Maybe the general could say what the main tasks of the four

 8     standard battalions are.

 9        A.   I said, Your Honours, that these four so-called standard military

10     police battalions had military police tasks to perform, so the classical

11     military police tasks, traditional tasks.  But when the situation was of

12     a particular kind, then parts of such battalions, pursuant to a decision

13     from the command, from the Defence Department, from the military police,

14     certain tasks could be assigned temporarily to a certain brigade until

15     the task was completed.  So it depended on the situation.  Even if these

16     units were not combat units, they could be attached, re-subordinated.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, you have said

18     that after the reorganisation in July 1993, there was, first of all, one

19     light assault battalion, and then in July there were four such battalions

20     for combat missions.

21        A.   Yes, Your Honours, yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So now for my first question.

23     When there is no fighting, these four battalions were under whose

24     authority?

25        A.   If there's no ongoing combat, the four battalions are under the

Page 49794

 1     Military Police Administration.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who is the Military Police

 3     Administration under?

 4        A.   The Military Police Administration is under the deputy chief of

 5     the Defence Department for Security, Mr. Lucic in this particular case,

 6     and the second -- the second person under whose command it is, is the

 7     chief of the Defence Department, the head of the Defence Department.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who was the head of the

 9     Defence Department?

10        A.   The head of the Defence Department, up until the 15th of

11     November, 1993, was Mr. Stojic.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So when there are

13     no military operations, Mr. Valentin Coric's military police was under

14     the authority of Mr. Bruno Stojic, according to what you have said.  And

15     now let me take the example of a military operation.

16             One needs a battalion or two battalions for a military operation,

17     whether of an offensive or defensive kind.  I won't go into details.  In

18     such a case, the military police battalions are under whose authority

19     exactly?

20        A.   The MP battalions are under the authority of the chief of the

21     Military Police Administration.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During combat operations?

23        A.   In the course of combat operations, they are subordinated to the

24     commander of a given area.  Or, rather, on the 27th of July and the 28th

25     of July, a decision was taken according to which they could be

Page 49795

 1     subordinated to the commander of the Main Staff, and then he could

 2     subordinate them to a certain commander in a given area.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me take the

 4     example of one battalion.  Well, there are four.  I'll take the example

 5     of one battalion.  They are given the order to go to a certain area where

 6     there is fighting, if I have understood things correctly.  The military

 7     police is, therefore, placed under the authority of the brigade commander

 8     in that area or under the authority of the Main Staff; is that correct?

 9        A.   The military police -- or, rather, the light assault battalions

10     can, within the chain of command, be subordinated to the commander of an

11     operative zone, for example.  And when they carry out a certain task,

12     they are responsible to the commander of an operative zone.  When the

13     task is completed, they go back to the usual chain of command.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's clear for

15     me.  You say that when there is combat, they are in the chain of command.

16             And let me take the case of Mr. Valentin Coric, because that's

17     what I'm interested in.  Would he, at such a time, have responsibilities

18     of any kind?

19        A.   Valentin Coric, in this specific case, would draft an order

20     according to which a certain battalion should be subordinated in a

21     certain area, and it will enter within the chain of command in that area.

22     Valentin Coric, although he has subordinated the battalion to the

23     commander, doesn't lose his responsibility over that battalion.  He

24     doesn't simply dismiss that battalion.  He has the right to exercise

25     authority over that battalion.  But the commander in the area will issue

Page 49796

 1     them with specific tasks and will be in command of that battalion.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You see that we are

 3     now dealing with an issue that is of crucial importance.  I'm going to

 4     take a very specific example now, very specific.

 5             Let's imagine the following:  Let's imagine that a military

 6     police battalion is subordinated to a brigade.  The brigade commander is

 7     responsible for the chain of command, and members of the military police

 8     commit crimes.  Let's take an example, a purely hypothetical example.

 9     The military police members in the course of combat burn down a house,

10     although this has no military justification, they engaged in acts of

11     pillaging and do other things.  At that point in time, who is

12     responsible; the brigade commander, or Mr. Coric, or both of them?

13        A.   Your Honours, taking your hypothetical, and if we add to that

14     that it was a battalion-strong military police unit so that we know what

15     we're talking about and how big it is, in a case like that both the

16     commander of a military police company is duty-bound to take steps

17     vis-à-vis his men, because the law states that the lowest level has to

18     secure the scene of crime, collect the evidence, and inform the

19     commander.  So the military police has companies, and there's a company

20     commander, so each level has their responsibility in terms of taking

21     steps.  It doesn't have to be the brigade commander that has the

22     responsibility.  There were two levels in a military police battalion,

23     and they are duty-bound by law to take steps in cases of that kind.  If

24     they fail to take steps or did take steps and sent on the information to

25     the brigade commander, then it is the brigade commander whose

Page 49797

 1     responsibility it is to forward the evidence collected to the prosecutor

 2     for further processing.

 3             So when we speak about the military police, we mustn't skip over

 4     two essential levels of the chain of command, the company commander and

 5     the battalion commander, two instances.  And then the third level is the

 6     level of the commander.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm going to give

 8     you another example.

 9             Let us imagine that there's an Operation X.  The brigade

10     commander says to the military police battalion, You're going to station

11     yourself on such a hill, and when I give you the order, you're going to

12     climb down from the hill and take control of the village.  You're going

13     to take prisoners, and you will await further orders, but you will take

14     care to avoid affecting the civilians; women, children, and the elderly.

15     Those are very precise orders from the brigade commander.  You're taking

16     part in combat, you're taking prisoners, and then you'll await orders --

17     further orders.  The operation begins.  The military police takes control

18     of the village.  And in spite of the orders given, they engage in actions

19     against the civilian population.

20             So what I would like to know from you is whether the brigade

21     commander is accountable, as the superior, for what is happening with the

22     military police, or is it Mr. Coric who is accountable?  That is what I

23     would like to know.

24        A.   Let's take the assumption that within the military police in that

25     part certain measures have to be taken, but the brigade commander is the

Page 49798

 1     person who, if he has issued assignments to the battalion commander, must

 2     monitor to see whether he is carrying out his tasks.  And according to

 3     that, he would be duty-bound to take certain measures.  However, that

 4     does not release the Military Police Administration, if the brigade

 5     commander fails to take steps, for it to take concrete steps, because the

 6     military police and the re-subordinated units have not lost the chain of

 7     command, especially in the order of re-subordination of the 28th of July.

 8     It says that the military police must not, regardless of

 9     re-subordination, lose the chain of command of its battalions.  So the

10     brigade commander can send this on to the Military Police Administration

11     or he can specifically undertake to inform the prosecutors and so on for

12     them to take the necessary steps.

13             And I'm referring to the document of the 28th of July on

14     re-subordination of the military police, in which it says very precisely

15     that the assistant chiefs of the military police in the operative zones

16     must not, regardless of re-subordination, lose the chain of command

17     between the Military Police Administration and the military police units

18     on the ground.  So the chain of command must be respected.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not going to insist on this

20     question, which is an important one, and in the cross-examination of the

21     Prosecutor we will be touching on other points, I'm sure.  But I give the

22     floor to my learned colleague.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Just to avoid any misunderstanding, 28th July of

24     which year?  The document you were referring to.

25        A.   1993, Your Honour, and it's an exhibit already.

Page 49799

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Yes, thank you.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to pass on to

 3     Mr. Pusic now.

 4             When did you meet him for the first time?

 5        A.   Judge Trechsel -- I mean, Judge Antonetti, the Presiding Judge,

 6     the first time I had direct contacts with Mr. Pusic, I think, was in

 7     Jablanica in -- well, the 4th and 5th of May, when I met with Halilovic

 8     in that area.  I don't know whether it was perhaps the last contact I had

 9     with Mr. Pusic, because, to be quite honest, when I met him here in

10     detention, I didn't recognise him, I didn't know who he was.  So the

11     first time that I came into direct contact with him, with Mr. Pusic, was,

12     as I say, when we attended talks in Jablanica with Halilovic.  That was

13     the 4th and 5th of May, 1993.  And my job was such that I didn't have any

14     contact with Mr. Pusic.  And we were separated, anyway, because I went to

15     Citluk, and, to be quite frank, I don't know where Mr. Pusic had his

16     office in Mostar, if he was in Mostar.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then there's no

18     point in my asking you whether he referred to Greater Croatia, et cetera,

19     talking to you, because you just said you hardly ever saw him, so the

20     question doesn't arise.  So I shall finish with the three other that are

21     mentioned.

22             Dario Kordic.  You testified in the trial of Mr. Kordic.  When

23     did you meet him for the first time?

24        A.   Your Honours, the first time I met him -- I met Dario Kordic was

25     the 7th of October, 1992, when I went to Sarajevo for talks at the

Page 49800

 1     invitation of UNPROFOR, and we were in the Presidency building, the

 2     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina together.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the same question.  What

 4     impression did you have of Mr. Kordic?

 5        A.   I met a man who liked to talk a lot and who, in what he said, in

 6     the stories he told, was very loud.  It was only later that I learnt that

 7     he had some hearing problems, that he didn't hear very well.  So I asked

 8     him, Are you shouting at me or what?  But then later on I realised that

 9     he had hearing problems.  Anyway, we were together in the Presidency

10     building.  And upon our return to Kiseljak, he and Blaskic carried on

11     towards Vitez, and I went to Herzegovina.  So that was my first meeting

12     with Kordic.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So with Mr. Kordic, did he

14     raise the issue of the project of a Greater Croatia, the Banovina, ethnic

15     cleansing, et cetera, et cetera?  Did he speak of these things with you?

16        A.   No, Your Honours.  We discussed our talks in Sarajevo, how we

17     were received in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and how they would

18     later on be working in the mixed commission which, regardless of the fact

19     that there was no tripartite meeting, it was established anyway at the

20     initiative of General Morillon.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The same question

22     for Mr. Blaskic.  When did you meet Mr. Blaskic for the first time?

23        A.   Your Honours, as for Blaskic, whether that was at the end of June

24     or beginning of July, mid-1992, as far as I remember, after Boban

25     appointed him, Mr. Boban appointed him, he stopped by in Grude for talks

Page 49801

 1     with Mr. Boban, and that's when I met Mr. Blaskic for the first time.

 2     Whether it was the end of June or the first half of July, I'm not quite

 3     sure, but, as I say, during that general time when he was appointed

 4     commander of Central Bosnia, in Central Bosnia.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  When you met him

 6     and when he was appointed commander of the Operational Zone of Central

 7     Bosnia, what was the impression he left on you?

 8        A.   Your Honour, he was a very young man.  He did have a certain

 9     amount of experience in the JNA.  I'm not quite sure, but I think that

10     the highest post he had was deputy battalion commander somewhere in

11     Slovenia, I think.  And at first, he appeared reserved, because he didn't

12     know the area very well and didn't like to enter into discussions about

13     it.  He didn't know Central Bosnia very well, and he didn't know the

14     people that he encountered there.  And also his approach was the approach

15     of a JNA officer.

16             He said that he was criticised for going to Austria when the war

17     in Croatia broke out.  I think he told me that his wife's family lived

18     there, so he spent some time in Austria and then returned to

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So he was being tested, in a way, and suddenly he

20     was surprised, as he himself said, by the fact that Mr. Boban, without

21     ever having a meeting with him before that, appointed him to the post,

22     and he didn't even know who the man was who put him forward, put his name

23     forward from the Central Bosnian authorities.

24             So in the beginning, he was rather reserved, as I said, because

25     he had to get to know the people and find a way of imposing himself as

Page 49802

 1     the commander.

 2             And there was Colonel Filipovic over there who was some 10 years

 3     older than him, and there was somebody else there too, and they were

 4     bypassed in this appointment, so he was given the post, and he didn't

 5     actually know how he came to be appointed.  So he needed a bit of time to

 6     find his bearings, if I can put it that way, and appraise the situation.

 7             Otherwise, he liked to write a lot.  I can say that about him.

 8     He did a lot of writing.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you had meetings with him,

10     did he tell you that he had a project of a Greater Croatia, the Banovina,

11     et cetera, or did you never address this type of issue?

12        A.   No, we never mentioned any of those issues, especially not

13     Blaskic, as an officer who arrived in the way he did and was received in

14     the way he was.  It never entered his head to speak about a project of

15     that kind at all.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to end with

17     Mr. Mladen Naletilic.  When did you meet him for the first time?

18        A.   Your Honour, it's a difficult question.  I think that the first

19     time I met Naletilic was sometime in June 1992.  I think it was at a time

20     when he and his unit were supposed to take control of Orlovac or

21     Hum - I'm not quite sure of which feature - because -- anyway, that's the

22     first time I met Naletilic, in Siroki Brijeg, at the command of the

23     Siroki Brijeg command, the Municipal Staff of Siroki Brijeg as it was at

24     the time.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My second question:  What was

Page 49803

 1     the impression he left on you when you met him?

 2        A.   Well, he was somebody who liked talking about the army, military

 3     tactics, and various actions, particularly his own specific action.  And

 4     I'd also say that he was somebody who was trying to find his way rather

 5     than knowing exactly what tactics to apply in leading the army.  He

 6     wasn't a patient man.  If you didn't want to talk to him, he would turn

 7     his back on you and leave.  So if you were listening to him carefully, he

 8     would talk to you; if not, he would leave and move on.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  With him, talking

10     to him, did he refer to the project of a Greater Croatia, the restoration

11     of the Banovina, ethnic cleansing, et cetera?  Did he touch upon all

12     these issues that are mentioned in the indictment?

13        A.   Your Honours, I never discussed anything like that with him.

14     Quite the contrary, I don't know, when I met him and when I talked to

15     him, except on the 14th of November, 1992, I don't remember ever having

16     talked to him on another occasion, and we never -- and on that occasion,

17     we didn't speak about anything very important.  He was just -- he

18     threatened me at the command post in Capljina.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my last question, and listen

20     carefully.  It is an important one concerning Mr. Naletilic and the

21     Convicts Battalion.

22             According to you, he and his men, did they come under a different

23     chain of command from yours; that is, did they have a direct link with

24     Mate Boban, and, therefore, you, up until the 24th or 27th of July, 1993,

25     had no authority over him?  Or Mr. Naletilic and the Convicts Battalion,

Page 49804

 1     as a professional unit, did they come under the Main Staff of the HVO?

 2     In other words, did they come under you?

 3        A.   Your Honour, as far as the Convicts Battalion is concerned, it

 4     wasn't under anybody's command, if I can put it that way, so there was no

 5     re-subordination, or attachment, or anything like that.  The only person

 6     that he believed and communicated with at that time was Mr. Boban.  He

 7     and I had a difference of opinion, as I said, on the 14th of November,

 8     1992, when he -- well, since he lost two of his soldiers in

 9     Operation Bura, he stormed into the headquarters with a pistol in his

10     hand and started threatening me, along with swear words which he readily

11     used, saying that he would liquidate me and that he would finish the job

12     with Tito's soldiers once and for all.  Thanks to Mr. Dzanko intervening,

13     who happened to be there at the time, the situation calmed down, and he

14     left this locality.  Mr. Boban was informed of all this, and he arrived

15     that very same evening.  He came to Capljina, to the command post there.

16     And it was his position that Tuta and Tuta's men are his problem, and

17     that Tuta, from that time on, would have nothing to do with anybody

18     else -- no contacts with anybody else, and that he would be exclusively

19     responsible to Mr. Mate Boban.  And that's what the situation was like

20     after that.

21             I don't remember, after that 14th of November, 1992, ever having,

22     in an order of mine, except the one in July 1993, any mention of the

23     Convicts Battalion, and this was different to other units to which I

24     issued orders.  I gave up on Tuta and Tuta's men.  I had nothing to do

25     with them.  But I want to say that Tuta's men, both in 1992 and for a

Page 49805

 1     significant portion of 1993, were soldiers who did not cause any

 2     problems, especially not with respect to relations with the Muslims, for

 3     example, because they had many Muslims among them.  They made problems

 4     for us Croats in certain locations.

 5             So that the Convicts Battalion, as a battalion, I do not wish to

 6     throw mud on.  I don't want to say that it was a bad battalion from day

 7     one.  Its commander was bad, and luckily it didn't go into operation

 8     much.  So by April 1993, there was no information to the effect that

 9     Tuta's unit did anything bad, except that some of his men might have been

10     engaged in a brawl with some other Croats in a cafe or something like

11     that, or in Ljubuski, or whatever, or somewhere else in Herceg-Bosna.

12             And Mr. Tuta, from that time on, was under the protection of

13     Mr. Boban, in actual fact.  He found him a position, and communication

14     went via Tuta to Mr. Boban for anything that needed doing and was linked

15     to the Convicts Battalion.  And that's how the situation remained until

16     the end, throughout the time that I was in the area, that is to say, in

17     Herzegovina, or Bosnian Herzegovina, actually.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're going to have

19     the break, and after the break, General Petkovic, I will be asking you

20     questions about paragraph 17(4), and you will give me your opinion about

21     it.  And after that, I hope there will be time, and we'll start with the

22     videos and the documents.

23                           --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume.

Page 49806

 1             I would like to ask the Defence -- before I continue with my

 2     questions for General Petkovic, I would like to ask the Petkovic Defence

 3     something about the list of exhibits that I have for the second day.  I

 4     would like to ask you whether in the list, because I haven't been able to

 5     deal with this myself, I would like to ask you whether in the list there

 6     are any documents that have not been admitted; KD01520?  Could you tell

 7     me which documents haven't been admitted, which documents in the list

 8     haven't been admitted, so that when I ask questions I can immediately

 9     deal with the relevance and the probative value of a given document.  I

10     wouldn't like to find myself in a situation in which I have to have a

11     dissenting opinion with 140 documents, and this was the case last time

12     with Mr. Praljak.  So I don't know.  All these documents, 4D and others,

13     are there any documents that have not yet been admitted?

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to admit that

15     I haven't had a look at -- or I didn't deal with the list of your

16     documents with the idea of which ones had been admitted and which hadn't,

17     but tomorrow I can inform you of which documents aren't being treated as

18     exhibits.  We have nothing against you putting questions about all these

19     documents, but we'll find this information for you.

20             Could I just ask you the following now:  Will we have the right,

21     as the Petkovic Defence, to suggest that certain evidence be used that

22     you use, but that doesn't have the status of an exhibit, but a document

23     that we would like to be an exhibit?  Judge Antonetti, could this be a

24     basis for a request from the Petkovic Defence to have this document

25     admitted into evidence?

Page 49807

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, the list of

 2     documents that I have, where I established it with reference to your

 3     written submissions during your introductory or opening statement, and it

 4     was also on the basis of the documents that were presented as the trial

 5     proceeded, I have not now verified the situation.  I haven't tried to

 6     establish whether the Chamber has rendered decisions about admissibility

 7     with regard to these documents, because your witness is testifying, and

 8     requests will be made for admission at the end of his testimony.  That is

 9     the difficulty that we are facing.  And in the course of your

10     examination-in-chief, you presented certain documents to him, and these

11     documents have not yet been admitted because no decision has been handed

12     down yet.  So if I use a document that you have already produced, shown,

13     but a document that hasn't been admitted yet, I can put questions about

14     the document, although there's no decision on admissibility with regard

15     to that document.  I can only use -- or I only use the documents that you

16     have used so far.  Nevertheless, I don't know whether these documents

17     have already been admitted, were previously admitted.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, most of these

19     documents already have the status of an exhibit of evidence.  I can't

20     provide you with precise information.  Certain decisions are still being

21     made with regard to some of the documents.  But tomorrow we'll provide

22     you with a precise list and information on the exact status of the

23     documents concerned.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Why am I putting

25     this question to you?  Because in the decision on admissibility, when

Page 49808

 1     General Praljak was testifying, there were certain documents that were

 2     shown and that, in the end, were not admitted.  If I had known that that

 3     was going to be the majority decision, I would then have put questions

 4     about the relevance, the reliability, and the probative value of the

 5     documents.  However, as this was not a problem for me, I didn't put such

 6     questions.  So to make sure that I don't find myself in a similar

 7     situation, if a document isn't admitted, I would then prefer the witness

 8     to tell me why the document is relevant, why it might be of interest,

 9     et cetera, and this is why I wanted to check this with you.  But I can

10     ask my trainee, my intern, to do this work for me.

11             Very well.  General Petkovic, we will conclude with the

12     indictment.  As I said, I was going to put questions to you about the

13     paragraph that concerned you.  I proceeded in the same way when

14     General Praljak was testifying.  I'll read out the part of the indictment

15     that is concerned, and you will provide me with your point of view.

16             So paragraph 17(4), the Prosecution says that you participated in

17     a criminal enterprise as follows:  Under A, it states the following: As a

18     senior commander, you exercised de jure and/or de facto command and

19     control over the Herceg-Bosna HVO armed forces:

20             "While chief of the HVO Main Staff, he directed and operated the

21     HVO armed forces and was responsible for the activities and actions of

22     such forces in furtherance of the joint criminal enterprise and in

23     connection with the crimes charged in this indictment.  He also played a

24     central command role in the Herceg-Bosna HVO armed forces during the time

25     that Slobodan Praljak was commander of the HVO Main Staff, as the overall

Page 49809

 1     deputy commander."

 2             So what do you have to say about that?

 3        A.   Your Honour, I reject the claim that I participated in a criminal

 4     enterprise, as alleged by the Prosecution.  I do not deny that I was at

 5     the head of the HVO, that I issued orders, and that I was in command in

 6     certain fields, in command of HVO units.  At the time, I was in charge of

 7     the Main Staff, together with General Praljak.  I was the deputy.  I was

 8     responsible to my commander for my work, and I don't see why I should

 9     place myself above my commander during that period of time with regard to

10     anything.  I don't know why the Prosecution stated that I was a

11     high-ranking deputy.  Such position doesn't exist.  There are just

12     deputies, and in all the armies throughout the world the duties of

13     deputies are quite clearly defined.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now under B, this is what

15     the Prosecution says:

16             "Milivoj Petkovic participated in high-level meetings of the HVO

17     armed forces and also the Herceg-Bosna HVO leadership, and with leaders

18     of the Republic of Croatia concerning the goals, programmes, policies,

19     operations, and strategies of the Herceg-Bosna HVO leadership in

20     establishing Croat control over the territories claimed to comprise

21     Herceg-Bosna and pursuing the goals and objectives of the joint criminal

22     enterprise."

23             So what would you say about that?

24        A.   Your Honour Judge Antonetti, I think the number of meetings I

25     attended at government sessions is well documented.  I think I was at one

Page 49810

 1     Presidency meeting, a meeting of the Presidency of Herceg-Bosna, and it

 2     can quite clearly be seen what matters I addressed.  My concern was to

 3     inform the authorities at the time of specific military events in a given

 4     area, and this is what I did.  At those meetings, this is what I did.  As

 5     far as policies are concerned and other matters that I'm accused of here,

 6     no, I didn't speak about such matters.

 7             As far as the Croatian state is concerned, at the level of the

 8     Croatian state, when I would meet with officials from the Republic of

 9     Croatia, I mostly attended meetings convened by the international

10     community that had to do with subjects that had been chosen by the

11     international community.  I can provide you with precise information of

12     each and every such meeting.

13             On the 5th of November, 1993, I attended a meeting in Split, and

14     it was the only occasion when the Croatian leadership was also present.

15     I was there with a group of people from Herceg-Bosna, and the main

16     subject had to do with the events in Central Bosnia.  To be more

17     specific, it had to do with events around Vares.  I spoke about such

18     matters and about nothing else.  I don't remember, and no one has

19     demonstrated this here, either, any other high-level meetings, meetings

20     at the level of the state of Croatia that I attended, but all the

21     meetings organised by the international community, which were attended by

22     representatives, are well documented and you can see what subjects were

23     discussed.

24             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I have to correct

25     something in the transcript.  On page 75, line 24, when the general,

Page 49811

 1     General Petkovic, spoke about meetings of the government, he said that

 2     politics was not discussed at those meetings.  But what it says here

 3     is -- well, it seems that General Petkovic said that he didn't speak

 4     about politics.  The general can say whether I'm right or not.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's an agenda for

 6     each and every meeting.  I didn't attend a single meeting where politics

 7     was discussed.  I attended a meeting and entered a meeting when there was

 8     an item that I had to provide information about.  I would provide the

 9     information, thank everyone present, and then leave the meeting.  So I

10     didn't attend meetings from the beginning to the end.  I came to deal

11     with a specific point, and I appeared at the time I was told to appear.

12     I provided information about events in a certain part of the

13     battle-field, and after that I left the governmental meeting or the HVO

14     meeting.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Under C, it states the

16     following:

17             "Milivoj Petkovic ordered, directed, facilitated, supported, and

18     participated in the Herceg-Bosna HVO subjugation of and commission of

19     crimes against Bosnian Muslims in the territory claimed as Herceg-Bosna

20     by issuing orders, commands, directions, instructions, and ultimatums,

21     such as the ultimatums that he participated in and assisted in January

22     1993 and April 1993, demanding the subordination of ABiH troops to the

23     HVO command."

24             General Petkovic, what do you have to say about this?

25        A.   Your Honours, I wrote an order on the 15th of January, as

Page 49812

 1     suggested -- recommended by General Praljak from Zagreb on -- at the

 2     joint command with members from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I issued the order

 3     on the basis of a previous decision taken by the government and on the

 4     basis of the head of the Defence Department, on the basis of his

 5     decision.  When you read the order, it's not an ultimatum; it's an

 6     invitation to hold discussions.  And if it is such an invitation, there

 7     is no ultimatum.  I hope we will discuss this and then see to whom an

 8     ultimatum is being issued.

 9             Under item 4, I think, an ultimatum is first being issued to the

10     HVO, if an ultimatum is being issued at all.  So it wasn't an ultimatum

11     of any kind for the ABiH.  When we found out that the ABiH wouldn't

12     accept such a method, a decision was quite simply taken on the 19th

13     according to which all of this was to be dismissed and that a joint

14     command order was to be issued together with the ABiH, and

15     General Halilovic and General Pasalic signed this.

16             In April 1993, an ultimatum wasn't issued to the units of the

17     ABiH.  There wasn't a conclusion of any kind that might seem like an

18     ultimatum.  No such conclusion was adopted by the Government of the

19     HZ-HB.  So there are no documents from the Defence Department.  As a

20     result of the meeting of the Government of the HZ-HB, there's no document

21     of any kind that was provided to the Main Staff.  And I, as the chief of

22     the Main Staff, wasn't invited to the alleged session at the beginning of

23     April 1993.  All the written -- all of this is just a matter of

24     allegations or for re-subordination, the HVO and the Main Staff

25     concerned -- or with regard to that matter, the HVO and Main Staff didn't

Page 49813

 1     issue any such order.  I stand by this claim that no such order was

 2     issued, and there was no basis for such an order to be drafted.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd just like to

 4     correct the transcript.  It's a minor correction.  Page 77, line 19, the

 5     transcript says "command," and the general spoke about a joint meeting

 6     with representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So we need the word

 7     "meeting" instead of the word "command."

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Listen to D,

 9     because there are certain claims that are more or less important.  But

10     listen to D very carefully, because we'll be going as far as O.  I'll

11     read it out slowly:

12             "Milivoj Petkovic participated in, facilitated, and supported the

13     joint crime enterprise and crimes charged in this indictment in planning,

14     approving, preparing, supporting, ordering, and/or directing military

15     operations and actions during and as a part of which such crimes were

16     committed."

17             I've read this paragraph, paragraph D, out slowly.  What do you

18     have to say about that?

19        A.   Your Honours, it would be a good idea if the Prosecutor had

20     mentioned specific military operations, when they started, when they were

21     completed, and how they evolved.  There were no military operations that

22     the HVO carried out against members of the BH Army in the sense of

23     military operations.  The HVO did clash with members of the ABiH in a

24     number of locations from Central Bosnia down to the Neretva River Valley,

25     and these were not operations that were initiated by the HVO.  And in the

Page 49814

 1     course of such defensive assignments, I did issue orders and I advised my

 2     commanders, which it is my duty to do.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] E:

 4             "Milivoj Petkovic mobilised military, logistical, and manpower

 5     resources which were used to pursue the political and military goals --"

 6             Let me start again.  Small (e):

 7             "Milivoj Petkovic mobilised military, logistical, and manpower

 8     resources which were used to pursue the political and military goals of

 9     the Herceg-Bosna HVO leadership, and which included military, logistical,

10     and manpower support from the Republic of Croatia Ministry of Defence and

11     Armed Forces."

12             General Petkovic, what would you say to that?

13        A.   Your Honour, I didn't quite understand.  Ministry of Defence of

14     the Republic of Croatia and its armed forces?  That is how it was

15     translated for me.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In this paragraph (e),

17     you mobilised military, logistical, and manpower resources, and

18     specifically logistical and manpower support which was extended by the

19     Republic of Croatia.

20        A.   Your Honour Judge Antonetti, the mobilisation of personnel and

21     materiel is a component part of any armed struggle in any country in the

22     world.  Both the mobilisation within the frameworks that the Main Staff

23     is responsible for, I did carry out in order to strengthen the defence of

24     the Croatian people or, rather, the territory inhabited by Croats, and

25     the defence of those areas at first from attacks by the VRS and later

Page 49815

 1     from attacks by members of the Army of the BiH, attacks on the HVO and

 2     the Croat people.  I could not mobilise nor bring in units from the Army

 3     of Croatia.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Small (f):

 5             "Milivoj Petkovic participated in the financial operations of the

 6     HVO armed forces and facilitated them, including the HVO armed forces'

 7     budget, payroll, and expenditures."

 8             What would be your comment?

 9        A.   Your Honours, there is just one document that I signed, the

10     payroll list.  And I think even here for the Trial Chamber and the

11     Prosecution, somebody has to sign the payrolls.  So I did not participate

12     in procurement of financial resources or any other.  That was not the

13     responsibility of the Main Staff.  My right was to guarantee, with my

14     signature, that for such and such a month, there were 25 or 30 people

15     working in the Main Staff, and that was all that I had to do with respect

16     to finances.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Small (g):

18             "Milivoj Petkovic participated in the seizure of movable and

19     immovable property and transfer of its ownership to the Herceg-Bosna HVO

20     military."

21             What would you say to that?

22        A.   I can say that Milivoj Petkovic did not participate in the

23     seizure of any kind of property, nor did he transfer that property to the

24     HVO.  Milivoj Petkovic had the right -- the captured equipment from the

25     VRS and the ABiH, to treat it in the way it is treated in any armies of

Page 49816

 1     the world, that is, to proclaim it its own equipment, nor under no

 2     circumstances to seize any other kind of equipment if it is not of a

 3     military nature.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Small (h):

 5             "Milivoj Petkovic facilitated, supported, encouraged, and

 6     participated in the joint criminal enterprise and crimes charged in this

 7     indictment in planning, approving, preparing, supporting, ordering,

 8     and/or directing military operations and actions during and as part of

 9     which cultural and religious property, such as mosques, were destroyed,

10     and private property of Bosnian Muslims was looted, burned, or destroyed

11     without any justification or military necessity, and failing to prevent,

12     stop, punish, or redress such destruction and looting."

13        A.   Your Honours, I do not deny that there was destruction of certain

14     facilities and even certain properties as a result of combat activities,

15     and even intentional destruction.  But Milivoj Petkovic did not in any

16     way encourage such methods, but in his orders Milivoj Petkovic cautioned

17     and warned his subordinates to treat property, civilians, and facilities

18     in accordance with the regulations recognised by international law.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Small (i):

20             "Milivoj Petkovic controlled, directed, facilitated, assisted,

21     and/or participated in a system of ill treatment involving a network of

22     Herceg-Bosna HVO prisons, concentration camps, and other detention

23     facilities which were used to arrest, detain, and imprison thousands of

24     Bosnian Muslims in unlawful and harsh conditions, where they were killed,

25     mistreated, beaten, and abused.  In particular, Milivoj Petkovic ordered

Page 49817

 1     and directed the widespread and systematic arrest of Bosnian Muslim men

 2     in the summer of 1993."

 3             Your comment regarding this role that is being attributed to you.

 4        A.   Your Honour, Milivoj Petkovic and the Main Staff did not direct

 5     any locations where persons were detained or imprisoned or put up in any

 6     other way; that is, the Muslims.  Milivoj Petkovic, availing himself of

 7     the rights of a commander, in the event of a security threat to his units

 8     and the territory under his control, acted in accordance with the general

 9     rules of military organisation of any state and was entitled to disarm

10     members of his own army, to disarm members of the enemy army that was in

11     the area, but Milivoj Petkovic, through his orders, insisted that

12     civilians, elderly, women and children, should be protected.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.  Microphone.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. (j):

15             "Milivoj Petkovic controlled, authorised, facilitated, condoned,

16     and allowed the use of Bosnian Muslim detainees in unlawful forced

17     labour, during which many of them were killed or injured, and issued

18     specific instructions on the use of Bosnian Muslim detainees in such

19     labour."

20             So this is a paragraph devoted to forced labour which the

21     Prosecutor referred to last week.  Your comment, please.

22        A.   Your Honours, Milivoj Petkovic issued such orders, but in those

23     orders he ordered that a labour be conducted with the engineers'

24     equipment and that the manpower should be used as auxiliary manpower

25     several kilometres away from the line.  So it always says in the orders

Page 49818

 1     "use engineering equipment," and we know that when engineering units

 2     work -- you need one soldier, not 100.  All the others were in a safe

 3     place and were completely protected.  Milivoj Petkovic issued specific

 4     orders.  I don't want to get away from that, but through my orders the

 5     lives of not a single soldier was under threat, and none of my soldiers

 6     were killed, because they were not where the trench-digging was going on.

 7     They were either in warehouses -- where resources were later transported

 8     by truck to certain positions.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, on the basis

10     of the documents that I will show you - I'm not going to, therefore,

11     belabour this issue, but I must remind you that we have seen documents

12     and we have heard victims - you say that you did order engineering works

13     that were apparently far removed from the front-line.  And when soldiers

14     of the ABiH - if I'm mistaken, please correct me - were placed in

15     conditions that were close -- if they were close to the front-line, they

16     were put in facilities in which they were protected.  But,

17     General Petkovic, how would you explain that certain detainees told us

18     that they were placed on the front-line, exposed to ABiH fire?  And I

19     quote by heart because I don't have the specific cases in mind because I

20     had not intended to go into this in detail, but there has been evidence

21     whereof persons being killed when they had left prison.  How would you

22     explain that?

23        A.   Judge Antonetti, Your Honour, I'm talking about specific orders

24     with my signature, and a specific time when this was going on, and

25     specific information which says that engineering equipment would be used

Page 49819

 1     and that the manpower would be axillary at positions three to five

 2     kilometres away from the front; that they would provide services, but

 3     that they wouldn't be up at the front-line.  And I claim that pursuant to

 4     the orders of the 15th, the 20th, and the 8th, there were no fatalities

 5     amongst the soldiers who were taken out.  And, on the other hand, if we

 6     look at orders, where it says that -- well, my orders, at least, of the

 7     15th, it says that my orders were not carried out.

 8             So I am not the person responsible for each order issued from the

 9     start to the finish of the war.  Every period had its own people who were

10     in command positions.  And I stand by each of the orders I issued, and I

11     will always be happy to expound and explain them before this Tribunal.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, for the

13     period when you were commander of the Main Staff, shall we say, until the

14     24th of July, 1993, or, rather, the 27th of July, is it your opinion that

15     when a prisoner leaves the prison on the basis of an order that is not

16     coming from you, but whoever is issuing the order comes under your chain

17     of command, do you believe that in this specific case you are not

18     responsible?

19        A.   Your Honours, in my order of the 20th, it is stated that the

20     dead-line is the 22nd.  From that date on, without my order, nobody was

21     allowed to take any soldier, but anyone who acted differently acted

22     against the law.  And I am incapable, in this Tribunal, to elaborate all

23     my orders while I was chief of staff of the Main Staff.  I'm ready to

24     analyse each specific case and say, This happened and, This did not

25     happen.  And I could mention the orders that I issued, whether it was on

Page 49820

 1     the 8th or I don't know when.  We can see the dates on the documents.

 2     And I wish to compare with what happened then.  I claim that such deaths

 3     did not occur following my orders, and I don't consider these orders to

 4     have authorised everyone to do what they wished.  And every order has a

 5     dead-line.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, General Petkovic, you're

 7     saying -- if I'm mistaken, please correct me.  There shouldn't be any

 8     ambiguity.  You're saying that you assume responsibility for the orders

 9     that you gave and signed.  But concerning other orders which did not come

10     from you, I should draw the conclusion that they were issued behind your

11     back, without you knowing about it.  Is that what you're telling us?

12        A.   Your Honours, yes.  In this case, there are specific documents

13     for a specific dead-line and period.  And when I was at the head of the

14     Main Staff, I'm willing to speak about every specific case while I was

15     head of the Main Staff, every case that occurred, because -- and where I

16     signed.  Outside that, I do not accept responsibility, because I did not

17     order it myself, nor did I ask that anything like that be done.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To understand well what you're

19     saying, I'm going to take a case.

20             Let us imagine -- from abroad, a case from abroad.  Let us

21     imagine that in a prison in Iraq, the commander of the American

22     forces - let us take such an example - does not issue orders.  For him,

23     the prisoners are in prison in accordance with the law.  And then a

24     military commander, any military commander, takes some prisoners to

25     engage in certain kinds of labour.  In this American case, you would say

Page 49821

 1     that the commander of the American forces is not responsible?

 2        A.   The commander of the American forces might not know that this was

 3     going on, to begin with, so one should see who allowed it, who permitted

 4     it.

 5             Now, a soldier belonging to the HVO -- if soldiers are in

 6     detention, they are used -- I state before this Court that I am willing

 7     to analyse each of my orders, compare it to the cases which happened, so

 8     that we can see what my responsibility is and what is not my

 9     responsibility.  I don't want to shed my responsibility in any way.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're very precise, so I shall

11     now pass on to the next point, that is, small (k):

12             "Milivoj Petkovic participated in, facilitated, and assisted a

13     system of ill treatment designed and implemented to expel, deport, or

14     forcibly transfer large numbers of Bosnian Muslims by expelling them from

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina into other countries or transferring them to parts

16     of Bosnia and Herzegovina not claimed or controlled by Herceg-Bosna or

17     the HVO, such as the transfer of Bosnian Muslim civilians from the area

18     of Sovici-Doljani in May 1993 and the expulsion of Muslims from Prozor

19     municipality in July 1993."

20             Have you understood well?  If not, I can elaborate.  What is your

21     comment, please.

22        A.   Your Honours, I want each point of the indictment, date by date,

23     location by location, to be placed in the context of command and

24     responsibility.  In Sovici and Doljani, the movement of Muslims was

25     something that the local commanders asked for, local people, at meetings

Page 49822

 1     with me, at meetings that were attended by international observers too.

 2     Therefore, Petkovic did not make the decision for that to be done that

 3     way.  Petkovic acquiesced to the requests made by the commander of the

 4     BH Army and his subordinates in the chain of command, specifically those

 5     responsible for those areas.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To make things quite clear.

 7     For the example of Sovici Doljani, you're saying the Muslims who had left

 8     these places left these places because there was a request on the part of

 9     the ABiH and in the presence of the international community, and that

10     that was why you allowed them to leave, because this was requested of you

11     and because it was approved by the international community?  Is that what

12     you're telling us?

13        A.   Your Honours, the documents that we have seen here from the

14     BH Army state -- or, rather, talk about the evacuation of Muslim members

15     on the basis of a conversation between Petkovic and Halilovic.  On the

16     basis of my stay in the school, if you remember, I promised that

17     everybody would go home by 4.00.  However, the BH Army members after that

18     asked that people be relocated from Sovici and Doljani to an area under

19     the control of the BH Army; specifically, in Jablanica.  And in their

20     documents, they mention this request.  So it was a request from the

21     BH Army, and it was at their request that I offered services.  It wasn't

22     my will that they should be relocated from those areas.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As it is time to

24     close, tomorrow, General Petkovic, I will finish with the four last

25     paragraphs, the L, M, N, and O, and I will do the same thing that I have

Page 49823

 1     been saying up to now; I will read it, and you will comment.  After that,

 2     I will use the documents and the videos, and I will review all the

 3     P evidence that has been admitted.  And once we have finished with that,

 4     I will move on to the documents that your counsel has submitted in a

 5     chronological order, starting from the oldest up to the most recent.

 6             So have a good rest until tomorrow.  As you know, the night will

 7     be a short one, because we will be meeting again, all of us, at 9.00 a.m.

 8     in the morning.

 9             Mr. Karnavas.

10             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good afternoon, or I should say good evening,

11     Your Honours.

12             For scheduling purposes, because I'm the first one to do the

13     cross-examination, and I understand you had allotted yourself two

14     days - obviously, we're not going to hold you to that time - but can I

15     rest assured that I will not be doing any cross-examination tomorrow?

16             You're shaking your head.  That means, Yes; right?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You will not be beginning

18     tomorrow, rest assured.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  And one other matter.  And let me preface it by

20     saying we're very grateful for the Trial Chamber giving us two days off

21     in April.  I wanted to ask the Trial Chamber if it would consider

22     April 1, which is Thursday, also to be given off.  And let me explain

23     just very briefly.

24             In the Orthodox religion, it is big or great -- Thursday, it is a

25     very important date for religious purposes.  I don't know how the

Page 49824

 1     Catholics practice it, but for the Orthodox, we go to church.  It's at

 2     night.  It's a very lengthy sermon.  I have to travel to Greece, where my

 3     family is.  So if it is at all possible to have that day off, I would

 4     most appreciate it, thank you, because we go Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

 5     Sunday.  It's one of those rare occasions where we go every day to

 6     church.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas, you can leave on

 8     Thursday.  Since your co-counsel is here, there shouldn't be any problem.

 9             MR. KARNAVAS:  Very well, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I wish you all a good

11     evening, and we meet again tomorrow at 9.00.

12                           [The accused stands down]

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

15                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.