Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 50830

 1                           Thursday, 11 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Praljak and Pusic not present]

 5                           [The Accused Petkovic takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

 8     the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Today, Thursday, the 11th of March, 2010, I'd like to greet

15     General Petkovic, our witness, the accused, the Defence teams, Mr. Scott,

16     his collaborators, and everyone else assisting us.

17             I will now hand down an oral decision concerning the Petkovic

18     Defence's request for a statement of reasons in writing, or, in the

19     alternative, a certification of appeal of the oral decision of the 10th

20     of March, 2010.

21             At the hearing held on the 10th of March, 2010, the Petkovic

22     Defence requested that the Chamber provide additional grounds for its

23     oral decision of the 10th of March, 2010, concerning the allocation of

24     two additional hours for the additional examination of Milivoj Petkovic

25     or, in the alternative, it requested that the Chamber certify the appeal

Page 50831

 1     that it intends to file against the said oral decision.  The Chamber

 2     notes that the request for a statement of reasons -- an additional

 3     statement of reasons for the oral decision of the 10th of March, 2010,

 4     has no grounds, as the decision in question has been duly justified.

 5             With regard to the request for certification of appeal against

 6     the oral decision, the Chamber notes that the Petkovic Defence has failed

 7     to provide reasons for its request, in the light of the conditions of

 8     Rule 73(B).

 9             As a result, the Chamber hereby dismisses the request.

10             Concerning General Petkovic's testimony now, I believe that 54

11     minutes remain for Ms. Alaburic, if I'm not mistaken.

12             You have the floor, Ms. Alaburic.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  Good

14     morning to the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and to you,

15     General, and everybody else in the courtroom.

16                           WITNESS:  MILIVOJ PETKOVIC [Resumed]

17                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Re-examination by Ms. Alaburic: [Continued]

19        Q.   [Interpretation] General, a few questions to start off with with

20     respect to the cross-examination conducted by my learned friend Mr. Scott

21     dealing with the co-operation between the HVO and the Army of

22     Republika Srpska.  And this topic was dealt with on pages 50564 of the

23     transcript.  And, among others, Mr. Scott asked you the following:  Did

24     the HVO and the Army of Republika Srpska conduct joint combat operations

25     against the Muslims?  Do you remember that part of the examination,

Page 50832

 1     General?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   One of the documents that Mr. Scott put to you was document

 4     number P1643.  General, we can use e-court.  It will make it faster.  It

 5     was a report by Ivo Lozancic from Zepce, dated the 10th of March, 1993,

 6     sent to Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Bruno Stojic.  And Mr. Scott focused on

 7     the following sentence:

 8             "It is necessary to open negotiations with the third party as a

 9     possibility of resolving the question for us and Usora."

10             Now, I had the impression, General, that you wished to explain

11     the context in which that was written, and that you also wanted to tell

12     us whether it had anything to do with individual joint operations manned

13     by the HVO and the Army of Republika Srpska against the Muslims.  Tell us

14     now.

15     A.   No, there was no joint combat.  These areas were under a total siege

16   and you couldn't reach them.  Zepce was the furthest, and from the south

17   side it was blocked by Zenica, Veliko Srediste, and a large number of

18   units, and Zepce and Usora had no contact with any HVO unit.  We could not

19   access it, we couldn't get within reach of 100 kilometres, because the BH

20   Army was around about.  So that was one of the most difficult problems to

21   resolve, Zepce being left as one of the most difficult enclaves of the HVO.

22        Q.   Now, General, 4D566 is the next document I'd like us to look at,

23     and it's the map which you, yourself, prepared showing the situation on

24     the territory of Central Bosnia and part of the North-West Herzegovina

25     Operative Zone.  So let's have a look where Zepce is, exactly, and what

Page 50833

 1     it is you were talking about.

 2             That's the map.

 3             Tell us, please, General, does Zepce border on territory

 4     controlled by the Serbs, in part?

 5        A.   Yes, it does border on that to the west, that is to say, north of

 6     Zenica, which is where the Serbs were in contact with part of the Zepce

 7     municipality.

 8        Q.   Tell us, please, General, according to your estimation, this

 9     Croatian enclave, could it have survived had it not had the possibility

10     of communicating with the outside world through the territory under Serb

11     control?

12        A.   No, it couldn't have survived, no chance whatsoever of it

13     surviving.

14        Q.   The next document that you were shown by Mr. Scott in this

15     context is document P2931, which is an order of yours, General, sent to

16     the Eugen Kvaternik Brigade and Rama Brigade and to Mr. Siljeg in Prozor.

17     And in item 3 of that order, which was sent on the 24th of June, 1993,

18     you state:

19             "I forbid support to our present [as interpreted] allies."

20             And then in point 4, you say:

21             "Provide support to the new allies."

22             So you're withholding it from the old allies and provide support

23     to the new allies.  Tell us, General, the former allies, that is to say,

24     up until this order was issued on the 23rd of June, 1993, who were those

25     former allies?

Page 50834

 1        A.   Well, that was figuratively stated.  They were members of the

 2     BH Army who, up until that date, had taken control of Travnik, expelled

 3     the Croats, taken Kakanj, expelled the Croats from Kakanj.  Those were

 4     the former allies.  And these new ones, new allies, were those who took

 5     over the Croats on their own territory and succeeded in organising them

 6     and transporting the civilian population, in part, to the Republic of

 7     Croatia and through Kupres to Livno.  That's what that was about.

 8        Q.   Tell us, please, General, you've already told us this, but you

 9     can remind us, when, in your opinion, did an all-out, total war begin

10     between the HVO and BH Army?

11        A.   Well, total war began in June, to all intents and purposes, and

12     it reached a peak on the 30th of June, because it was in June that

13     Travnik was attacked, taken control of, Croats expelled, Kakanj

14     continued, Fojnica continued, and further on, so the whole of Bosnia and

15     the whole of the HVO in Bosnia was totally blocked and being attacked

16     from all sides, and we had no prospects at all.  And that is why we had

17     5.000 dead -- 5.000 dead in the clashes -- well, if we call them former

18     allies up until then of the BH Army, members of the BH Army.

19        Q.   Now, the next topic, General, re-subordination.  My question to

20     you is this:  Is there any automatic re-subordination?  For example,

21     Tuta, with 50 members of the Convicts Battalion, comes into the territory

22     of Gornji Vakuf, so does that mean that he is automatically

23     re-subordinated to Zrinko Tokic, who was the commander of the brigade in

24     Gornji Vakuf?

25        A.   No, not unless Tuta had been sent by somebody and an order

Page 50835

 1     written that he was being re-subordinated.  He could come there and say,

 2     I am re-subordinating myself.  So for re-subordination, there must be the

 3     proper documentation to back that up.

 4        Q.   You mentioned and said that Tuta, as a unit being re-subordinated

 5     possibly, must have been informed about that.  Now, what about the

 6     brigade commander; would he have to have been informed?

 7        A.   Absolutely.  He has to know who he was getting, and somebody

 8     getting into the area can only work on his own bat if they're not

 9     re-subordinated.

10        Q.   Now, the next topic is this:  Mr. Scott, on page 50683 of the

11     transcript, mentioned several of your agreements and the permission you

12     gave for labour on the part of detainees, and he said that that

13     permission was given following your order of the 14th of October, 1993.

14     So let's look at that order now of the 14th of October, 1993.  The number

15     of the document is P5873.  Tell us, General, how come you issued this

16     order in the first place?  Can you explain the circumstances of that?

17        A.   Well, on that day I received a delegation from the International

18     Red Cross Committee because we were supposed to decide about the holding

19     of two meetings, one in Tomislavgrad and the other in Mostar, which would

20     involve about 100 officers and NCOs, and the ICRC would talk about

21     International Humanitarian Law.  And that was arranged, and the people

22     from the ICRC spent two days in Mostar on both sides, both banks.  And

23     they went with me -- they came to me to talk to me, and they said that

24     they had been to the east bank, and asked them there to regulate

25     questions of human labour.  And then they told me that it would be a good

Page 50836

 1     idea if I were to issue an order, and that's what I did.  That's how I

 2     drafted the order forbidding any more such people to be taken for that

 3     purpose, and, if necessary, then the Main Staff would make the decision

 4     and it would be far off from the front-line so as not to bring anybody

 5     into jeopardy.

 6        Q.   Now let's look at P7075, the next order.  Well, I apologise, it's

 7     not an order; it's actually a document.  It's a document dated the 18th

 8     of December, 1993, signed by the then assistant minister of defence,

 9     Marijan Biskic.  And towards the end of that document, it says that:

10             "I forbid, without permission from the Security Sector, the

11     taking out of prisoners for labour."

12             Now, my question to you, General, is this:  From that time on,

13     the Security Sector, did it issue permission for prisoners to be taken

14     out for labour?

15        A.   The Security Sector took it upon themselves to supervise and see

16     where the people were being taken -- prisoners were being taken out for

17     labour or not.  And as far as I remember, they gave permission for some

18     people to go out to work in certain localities.

19        Q.   Now, the next topic, let's move on:  The military disciplinary

20     courts.  The page of the transcript is 50283.  Tell us, please, General,

21     the legal system in Herceg-Bosna, with respect to the new provisions, was

22     it similar to the system applied in the Republic of Croatia?

23        A.   Yes, it was mostly similar, and all the documents and material

24     was used, the documents issued in the Republic of Croatia, to be adapted

25     or copied out for other purposes -- these other purposes.

Page 50837

 1        Q.   Now look at 4D1331, the next document, 4D331 [as interpreted].

 2     It's a decision on establishing military disciplinary courts.  It's the

 3     14th of November.  Franjo Tudjman took the decision.  It has to do with

 4     the Republic of Croatia and the Croatian Army.  Tell me, did Mate Boban

 5     ever issue a decision or a similar one in Herceg-Bosna?

 6        A.   No, he never issued a decision on establishing military

 7     disciplinary courts.  And the year is 1991.

 8        Q.   Now for the following subject.  On transcript page 50077 and

 9     50078, the Stojic Defence showed you document 4D348.  This is a report

10     from Mr. Miro Andric compiled on the 27th of January, 1993.  General, can

11     you confirm the authenticity of this document?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. Andric compiled this document.  It's authentic, and all

13     the people mentioned under 1 to 5 were with him in Gornji Vakuf; in fact,

14     in Prozor.

15        Q.   Have you read this document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, does it correctly depict the

18     situation in Gornji Vakuf?

19        A.   Yes.  Mr. Andric described all the events from the 12th of

20     January.  He described all his meetings, everything that was going on

21     until he left the area of Gornji Vakuf or, rather, until the time that he

22     was wounded.

23        Q.   On page 50326 of the transcript, 50326, Judge Antonetti asked you

24     how it is that the Defence Department was an administrative organ that

25     had the Main Staff as one of its components, which was an operative

Page 50838

 1     organ.  General, my question is:  Is the Defence Department, as you

 2     understand it, just an administrative body?

 3        A.   Well, if you have a look at it as a whole, if you have a look at

 4     the Main Staff within the framework of the Defence Department, then it's

 5     an administrative and an operative organ, because you can't exclude the

 6     Main Staff from that body.

 7        Q.   On page 50098 of the transcript to 50133, you were asked about

 8     assistant commanders of operative zones and brigades and battalions, for

 9     the medical corps, security, and for information and propaganda.  My

10     question is:  Who appointed these assistant commanders -- these deputy

11     commanders, in fact?

12        A.   Well, they had to be appointed within the chain of command by the

13     highest-ranking levels of the Defence Department, by the body responsible

14     for appointing such people.  They made such suggestions.

15        Q.   General, let's have a look at 2D567.  This is a decision on the

16     internal organisation of the Defence Department, dated the 17th of

17     October, 1992.  I'll go through certain provisions very quickly.

18             In item 4, it says that deputy commanders for security in the

19     commands of operative zones shall be appointed by the representative of

20     the Defence Department, as suggested by the deputy commander for

21     security, and also deputy commanders for brigades.  Item 5, this also

22     concerns the health sector, the chief of the medical corps in the

23     brigades shall be appointed by representatives of the Defence Department.

24     Then we have the Sector for Morale.  That's item 6 of the document.  And

25     for the Sector for Morale, apart from deputy commanders, it also says

Page 50839

 1     that all other officials and operative officers in the Sector for Morale

 2     shall be appointed by the deputy representative for morale, with the

 3     acceptance of the head of the Defence Department or someone authorised by

 4     that person.

 5             General, as far as you remember, was that the actual situation?

 6        A.   This was how one had to proceed.  These are the provisions.

 7        Q.   Let's have a look at P601, General.  This is a programme of work

 8     for the Sector for Morale for 1992.  It's dated the 19th of October,

 9     1992.  The programme was established by the assistant for the Defence

10     Department then, Mr. Bozo Rajic.  In the document, there are a number of

11     important items.  It's already an exhibit.  I'll just draw your attention

12     to one part of the document towards the end of the introductory part,

13     before the numbers 1, 2, 3 on the next page in the Croatian version.

14     I think it's the same in the English version.  In that part, it says that

15     they suggest -- the authority for appointing all officials shall be the

16     authority of this sector, and you can influence -- they can influence the

17     officials appointed.  Subordination and control shall also be

18     established, because "appointment" also means the right to dismiss

19     certain employees, and so on.

20             General, did you know that the initiative for this decision came

21     from the Sector for Morale, itself?

22        A.   Yes.  They followed the usual guide-lines.

23        Q.   Very well.  We'll move on to the next subject.

24             General, General Praljak asked you questions about combat and

25     non-combat components of the military structure; page 50186 of the

Page 50840

 1     transcript to 50190.  Amongst non-combat components of the military

 2     structure, you included the military police.  My question is whether all

 3     units and services of the military police are part of the non-military --

 4     the non-combat, correction, component of the HVO.

 5        A.   The military police, amongst its tasks -- well, didn't mention

 6     that the military police was a combat unit, but at certain periods of

 7     time there were certain tasks, so to speak, where parts of the military

 8     police were declared to be combat components, but the tasks never

 9     actually stated that the military police had to perform combat

10     operations.  After a certain amount of time, there would be certain

11     changes within the structure, and then the possibility would be given,

12     through orders and through other documents, for part of the police to be

13     used in combat.

14        Q.   The Coric Defence, on pages 50223 to 5, showed you P960, document

15     P960.  These are instructions from Mr. Bruno Stojic on implementing the

16     reorganisation of the military police units.  The date is the 28th of

17     December, 1992.

18             And now for the following document, and then I will put my

19     question.  Have a look at document P957.  This is a decision on the

20     structure of the military police of the HVO.  The date is the 26th of

21     December, two days earlier.  It was taken by Mr. Coric and Mr. Stojic on

22     that date.

23             General, my question is:  As Chief of the Main Staff, did you or

24     anyone else from the Main Staff participate in this decision on the

25     organisation of the military police?

Page 50841

 1        A.   No, we quite simply received this decision as a "fait accompli."

 2        Q.   On page 50229 of the transcript, it says that you were shown a

 3     document, 5D5106, 5D5106.  It's a decision on appointing a commander of a

 4     platoon of the brigade of military police in the Frankopan Brigade.  The

 5     date is the 9th of April, 1993.  Do you remember having seen this?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Have a look at 4D2041 now.  This is a decision from the military

 8     Police Administration, dated the 21st of August, 1993, in which one is

 9     reacting to the replacement of the commander of the Brigade police of the

10     Knez Branimir Brigade in Citluk.  It says:

11             "Having examined order number 693, we are obliged to inform you

12     of the following:

13             "You do not have the authority to appoint and dismiss the brigade

14     police commander.

15             "2.  If you believe that the brigade police commander is not

16     performing his duty responsibly, you can request that the Military Police

17     Administration of the HZ-HB relieve him of duty, providing the necessary

18     explanation.

19             "3.  Should your request be approved, you will be able to propose

20     a candidate for the new commander.

21             "Send any remarks concerning the work of the brigade police to

22     the Military Police Administration of the HVO."

23             General, according to this document on the dismissal of the

24     police commander of the Knez Branimir Brigade, who is responsible for

25     appointing and dismissing brigade police commanders?

Page 50842

 1        A.   Well, it's the Administration of the Military Police.  Everything

 2     else would be against the law.

 3        Q.   On pages 50228 and 9 of the transcript, it says that you were

 4     shown your warning, P4262, P4262, your warning dated the 17th of August,

 5     1993, on responsibility for command in the brigade military police.

 6     General, does this have the value of an order, this document of yours?

 7        A.   No, it doesn't.  It was just a warning to prevent spreading blood

 8     amongst military police.  This document that we saw previously was

 9     created three or four days after mine, so this is contrary to what I was

10     claiming here.

11        Q.   Very well.  Let's have a look at P4922 now.  This is an extract

12     from instructions on the work of the brigade military police.  It is --

13     it has the force of an order.  On the 10th of September, 1993, it was

14     issued by Mr. Valentin Coric.  In that order, amongst other things --

15     well, I'll just mention a few items.  It says military police platoons

16     and brigades carry out the orders of the brigade commander within the

17     framework of their responsibility.  I'll skip another paragraph:

18             "The HVO military police is a single body and is linked to

19     battalions and companies under the command of the chief of the Military

20     Police Administration.  The structure of the military police in brigades

21     is not permanent.  Brigade platoons, within the framework of military

22     police companies and battalions, can be used for general military and

23     police affairs, under the command of the company commander, with the

24     agreement of the brigade commander, and at that time their

25     responsibilities towards the brigade shall cease."

Page 50843

 1             This extract from an obligation of a force of an order, as one

 2     says, was forwarded, as we can see, to all brigades.  And it also says:

 3     "To military police platoons."  That's handwritten.  Was this extract

 4     also forwarded to the HVO Main Staff, General?

 5        A.   No, it wasn't forwarded to the HVO Main Staff, but this was also

 6     an attempt to normalise the relationship of the police within the HVO.

 7        Q.   On page 50225 to 31 of the transcript, it says --

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  With regard to the last document, Ms. Alaburic,

 9     could you tell us where you have the source to affirm that "10/09" is the

10     10th of September, 1993?

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Trechsel, thank

12     you for the question.  I was expecting it.

13             If you have a look at the second page of the Croatian version,

14     you'll see that it was also forwarded to the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and

15     8th Military Police Battalions.  By the 1st of July, 1993 -- up to the

16     1st of July, 1993, there were five military police battalions, and in the

17     second half of 1993, this was reorganised and there were eight military

18     police battalions.  So this document was forwarded to eight military

19     police battalions, and as a result, the document is from 1993, without a

20     doubt.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And probably I'm not 100 per cent sure.  For

22     1994, Mr. Coric would not anymore be in the position as chief of the MPA?

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Already in

24     November 1993, Mr. Coric was no longer in that position, but I'm not

25     talking about 1994.

Page 50844

 1             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm just trying to exclude any possibilities

 2     that the document is from somewhere else, and that's fine.  Thank you.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So, General, you have been shown P1099, 1099, which is a table

 5     showing the structure of the brigade.  You were shown the first page of

 6     that document, General.  It is a table, but not the actual formation of

 7     the brigades signed by Mr. Stojic.  Tell me, General, was this table

 8     signed by Mr. Stojic?

 9        A.   I don't know how I can confirm whether it is a part of the whole.

10     I'm just --

11        Q.   No, General.  I'm just asking you whether he signed it.

12        A.   No, he didn't.

13        Q.   Will you please find that document in our set of documents in the

14     first binder.  Please leaf through this document quickly and find where

15     Bruno Stojic planned that the brigade military police would be part of

16     the brigade structure.  Can you do that quickly, please?

17        A.   What is the number of the document?

18        Q.   P1099.  You can find it because the documents are in order.

19             The question, General, is whether this diagram corresponds to the

20     structure of the brigade passed by Mr. Bruno Stojic.

21        A.   Yes, this is a schematic.  It says here that it should be signed,

22     though I can't see the signature.

23        Q.   Will you please find where it says that the brigade military

24     police is part of the brigade structure?

25        A.   No, it can't be found.

Page 50845

 1        Q.   Is it indicated anywhere?

 2        A.   No, but then we have to look at all the appointments.

 3        Q.   So it does not exist.  Let us now look at document P957.  We had

 4     it in our hands a moment ago.  It is a decision by Mr. Bruno Stojic --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes?

 6             THE ACCUSED STOJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

 7             I do apologise.  Could you please ask the witness just one

 8     question:  Whether all the brigades had the same structure?  Counsel has

 9     just found one brigade formation, but all the brigades did not have the

10     same structure.  Thank you.  If you could, Your Honours, please ask this

11     of the witness.  If not, I apologise.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not possible for you, but

13     it's an interesting question.

14             We have an organigram, a typical organigram of a brigade.

15     General Petkovic, did all the brigades have the same organigram or the

16     same structure, or is this a special case?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the exception may be

18     as to whether brigade has two, three, or five battalions; that is, what

19     differed one brigade from another.  Some had two battalions.  For

20     example, Ante Starcevic had 1.300 men.  It cannot have three.  The

21     Knez Domagoj at first had five battalions because it was numerically

22     strong, and it may have had two independent companies.  So the difference

23     was in the number, and the greatest difference was the number of

24     battalions that a brigade could form.

25             And, secondly, another difference was whether the brigade had a

Page 50846

 1     sufficient number of artillery pieces or did it just have five mortars in

 2     a brigade, so you couldn't call it a division.  The rest is more or less

 3     the same.

 4             So the main difference was the number of battalions.  Depending

 5     on the strength of the brigade, the number of battalions was formed.

 6             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, document P957.  It's a decision on the structure of the

 8     HVO military police, which is from December 1992.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

10             Ms. Alaburic, I apologise.  Still talking about this document,

11     P1099, when we look at the organigram that we have in front of us, I see

12     in the first line, under the heading "Brigade Commander and Command," on

13     the first line, I shall read, "Protection Platoon."  What is the MP

14     Platoon, what does it stand for?  Witness, is that still the military

15     police?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Mindua, this a

17     formation designed much earlier, so that if you have a military police

18     platoon, you don't need a protective platoon.  This was a structure that

19     was set up at I don't know what level, and, as such, there is no need to

20     have a protective platoon, because the need to protect the command will

21     be done by the military police.  So this was a structure from the very

22     beginning.  It was later revised, and many of these things were also

23     revised later on.  And what is shown with dotted lines, that was subject

24     to changes; for instance, battalions and independent companies.  And this

25     depended on the possibilities regarding manpower in a particular

Page 50847

 1     municipality, whether they were sufficient or not.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA:  Thank you very much.

 3             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] I do have a request, if you

 4     could ask the witness a question.

 5             Since he is denying all the diagrams that are being shown, and in

 6     the last year we have seen some prepared here in The Hague, could you ask

 7     him whether he had an organigram of the Main Staff of the HVO of which he

 8     was the head?  And if he did, let us see the position of the military

 9     police in the brigade.

10             And an additional request:  Why was this not called the NATO

11     military police rather than the brigade military police?  And I was a

12     person who studied these matters at some length.  Perhaps it would be

13     better to call it the NATO military police rather than the brigade

14     military police.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, due to the

16     procedure, clearly, Mr. Coric could not ask this question later.  He

17     could ask another witness.  But you were at the head of the HVO, and as

18     he has already testified, he can't ask you any more questions.  So I will

19     take up this question, and could you answer it, please?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, Your Honours.

21             The Main Staff has its own structure which is prescribed, and, as

22     such, it was adopted in September 1992.  It was amended at the end of

23     1993, when General Roso took over as commander, perhaps two months after

24     he took over.  Up until then, it had an established structure.  And we

25     even saw lists of names of people who held certain positions.  Therefore,

Page 50848

 1     the Main Staff did have its organisational structure and it had persons

 2     performing duties.  You had the Witness Jasak, who pointed out his

 3     position on the diagram.  A new change occurred at the end of 1993, when

 4     General Roso, Minister Jukic, and others came over.  The Main Staff was

 5     reorganised, and the number of people in the Main Staff increased.  So

 6     the Main Staff, of course, does have its structure, which we have seen

 7     here.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Mr. Petkovic, I did not find your answer to

 9     Mr. -- to my brother Mindua's question very, very clear.  He pointed out

10     that here we have an element, a protection platoon, and then there is

11     also a platoon of military police.  Now, you seem to be saying that all

12     this is not really reliable, it changed over the course of time.  That

13     may well be so.  I will, of course, not dispute this.  The question is

14     whether, then, it is convincing for the whole time that there is no place

15     for military police in the structure of the battalion and whether what is

16     here indicated by a platoon could not later on then be more important

17     units of military police.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one is denying that there was a

19     military police in the brigade.  This is the first scheme, designed at

20     the beginning, and it was changed.  This protection platoon was simply

21     left out, was scrapped, because it was not necessary in the structure of

22     the brigade.  By a decision on the structure of the military police of

23     the 26th of December, one can see that there are military police platoons

24     that are attached to the brigades.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the following

Page 50849

 1     documents we will be answering Your Honour Judge Trechsel, and we will be

 2     referring to all the points you have just raised, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   When you were talking about the structure of the Main Staff, tell

 4     us, who prescribed the structure of the Main Staff?

 5        A.   The Defence Department prescribed all the structures, including

 6     the Main Staff.

 7        Q.   But "the Defence Department" doesn't mean anything, so tell us.

 8        A.   The head of the department, that is Mr. Stojic.  No one else

 9     could sign them.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Would you please wait for the translation,

11     because you have been totally overlapping now.  And this is addressed

12     also to the witness.  You -- as soon as the last word had left counsel's

13     mouth, your mouth opened, and that's not the way that works.  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   General, let us look at document P957 to see what was prescribed

17     regarding brigade military police platoons.  In the section relating to

18     the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Military Police Battalion, let us look at the text

19     for the 2nd, which applies to all the battalions.  It says:

20             "The 2nd Battalion of the military police based in Tomislavgrad,

21     covering the operational zone of North-Western Herzegovina."

22             It consists of:  The command, three companies, and six brigade

23     platoons of military police.

24             Tell us, General, according to this provision, what would you

25     say?  The military police platoon of the brigade, which does it belong

Page 50850

 1     to?

 2        A.   It belongs to the battalion of this operational zone.

 3        Q.   Let us look further down.  As part of the battalion, there are

 4     six independent brigade platoons of the military police which are a

 5     component part of the brigade in the Operative Zone of North-Western

 6     Herzegovina.  Tell us, please, General, this sentence, how do you

 7     interpret it?  The platoons of the brigade military police, who do they

 8     belong to?

 9        A.   They belong to a certain battalion of the military police, be it

10     the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Battalion that we have come across here, or

11     companies in Posavina.

12        Q.   Tell us, then, how would you interpret the fact that it says that

13     those platoons are also within the framework of the brigades?

14        A.   We have a single unified military police -- and they are, by

15     assignment, attached to brigades.  And then they become brigade military

16     police, but they also belong to the military police battalion.  This is a

17     decision which is important.

18        Q.   Let us now look at the next document, P1707, 1707.  This is a

19     document of the head of the Military Police Administration, dated the

20     23rd of March, 1993, addressed to Bruno Stojic.  It is a request for

21     funds for the payment of salaries to the military police for February

22     1993.

23             Under B, as we see in this document, there's mention of the

24     brigade military police.  And if we look at the table, we will see that

25     Valentin Coric is seeking funds for the salaries of members of the

Page 50851

 1     brigade military police in the 3rd Battalion and the 4th Battalion of the

 2     Military Police.  Tell me, General, on the basis of this document, to

 3     which entity the brigade military police belongs.

 4        A.   It is to the 3rd and 4th Battalions of the military police.

 5        Q.   Will we please look at the next document, which is P2020.  This

 6     is, again, an order by Valentin Coric - I withdraw the word "again," from

 7     the 22nd of April, 1993.  And in the second paragraph, Valentin Coric

 8     orders from members of the military police from the 2nd and 3rd Brigade,

 9     intervention groups should be formed which, together with the military

10     police, that is, the Mostar Brigade of the Army of BiH, jointly patrol

11     the town.  What does it emerge from this order?  Is Valentin Coric in

12     charge of the brigade military police?

13        A.   Yes, he is, because he says that the military police from the 2nd

14     and 3rd Brigade should form intervention groups, together with the

15     military police of the 1st Mostar Brigade of the ABiH, and that they

16     should jointly patrol the town of Mostar.

17        Q.   Let us look at the document P2310.  This is an information on a

18     meeting that -- with Pero Markovic and the members of the civilian

19     authorities of Capljina.  A meeting was held with the representatives of

20     military police, that is, representatives of the military police of the

21     HVO, with the civilian authorities of Capljina municipality.  And in the

22     middle of the second page of the Croatian text, which is again the second

23     page, paragraph 5, it is said as follows:

24             "The first command of the brigade military police is given by the

25     commander of the brigade, and it comes under the authority of the

Page 50852

 1     Administration of the Military Police, who reports on its work."

 2             Does this conclusion from the meeting agree with what you believe

 3     things should be like?

 4        A.   Yes, it does.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  Mr. Petkovic, this was a bit a

 6     lump-sum question and answer.  If I understand correctly, but I find it

 7     difficult to follow at that speed, I must admit, this could also be read

 8     as marking an exception.  Normally, the MP of the brigade is under the

 9     authority of the commanders, and here it's excluded, and this might be an

10     exception.  What is your view on this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's not an exception.

12     The brigade will work on the affairs that the brigade commander received

13     and issued, but it is duty-bound, in its work, to inform its superior

14     organ, which is the military police battalion to which it belongs, in

15     organisational terms; well, the police.  But the battalion first is

16     informed, and then it goes further on.  It has to table a report on its

17     work within the brigade to the superior organ of the military police.

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  We have this on record.  I'm sure we

19     will have the occasion to go into this matter later also.

20             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we can just

21     clarify the beginning of the general's answer.

22             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would

23     like to go back a bit to the document presented by my learned colleague

24     several minutes ago.  It is document P01707, to make things proper.  The

25     first paragraph of that document, and she omitted to read a sentence from

Page 50853

 1     that, the sentence which says salaries were not calculated for military

 2     policemen in the brigade platoon of the Brigade of Knez Domagoj, the

 3     Bruno Busic Regiment, and the brigade platoons from the Operative Zone of

 4     North-West Herzegovina which were paid through those units.  I just

 5     wanted to read that sentence out.

 6             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Now, General, remind us of your answer.  What was it that you

 8     said?

 9        A.   I said that in certain areas, salaries were guaranteed for

10     brigade platoons.  Where it wasn't, then the military police asked the

11     Defence Department to provide the salaries, because I know that

12     individual municipalities paid soldiers and, by the same token, paid the

13     military police in certain municipalities.

14        Q.   Now let's look at P31 -- yes, my colleague Ms. Nozica has

15     reminded me of a point.  I wanted you to give me some explanation that --

16     you probably misspoke in line 8 of the previous page.  When you started

17     answering Judge Trechsel's question -- yes, I have very little time.

18     That's why I'm speeding up, so I apologise to everybody.

19             Judge Trechsel asked you about the brigade military police, and

20     you said that the brigade will perform tasks pursuant to orders from the

21     brigade commander.  Did you mean the brigade or did you mean the brigade

22     military police?

23        A.   No, I meant the brigade military police.  It will perform its

24     tasks in the brigade, but up the chain of command it must inform the

25     military police what it was it did within the brigade.

Page 50854

 1        Q.   Tell us, please, General, do you in any way challenge the fact

 2     that the brigade military police performed the defined daily military

 3     police tasks and assignments pursuant to an order from the brigade

 4     commander?

 5        A.   No, I'm not challenging that.  That is what it did do.

 6        Q.   Now let's look at document P3116, which is a report of the 4th

 7     Brigade Military Police.  The commander is Ante Prlic, and it is a report

 8     dated the 2nd of July, 1993.  And I'd like us to focus on the last

 9     sentence there, or the two last sentences, where it says the following:

10             "Around Mostar, the brigade military police is on the alert and

11     is in the police station, and is regularly implementing all the orders it

12     receives from the brigade and the Military Police Administration.  In the

13     course of the past day, there were no problems."

14             Tell us, General, a situation of this kind whereby orders are

15     received both from the brigade commander and from the Military Police

16     Administration, does that correspond to the actual situation on the

17     ground?

18        A.   Yes, it does, absolutely.

19        Q.   Just one more document staying with that topic, and it is P5497.

20     5497 is the document number, which is a monthly report on the work of the

21     5th Battalion of the Military Police for the month of September 1993.

22     And on the last page of that document, we have a review of the strength

23     of the 5th Military Police Battalion, and mention made there is platoons

24     in seven brigades and the brigade platoon in Konjic.

25             Now, looking at this document, General, the brigade police, was

Page 50855

 1     it within the 5th Battalion of the Military Police?

 2        A.   Yes, these platoons did come under the composition of the

 3     5th Military Police.

 4        Q.   What happened to the brigade military police when, at the head of

 5     the Ministry of Defence, we had Mr. Jukic, and in the Security Sector,

 6     Mr. Biskic?

 7        A.   It was abolished.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us what the general conclusion was about the

 9     institution of the brigade military police as it was organised hitherto,

10     if you know?  Was it given a positive assessment of its work or not?

11        A.   Well, all the problems in the work of the brigade military police

12     were reviewed, and so the new leadership decided to abolish the brigade

13     military police forces in all the brigades and carried out a

14     reorganisation of the overall military police.

15        Q.   General, Judge Trechsel said, on page 50254 of the transcript --

16     he said:

17             "We had the impression that the military police was integrated in

18     the operative zone and that a command and order to the operative zone

19     included everything that came under the operative zone commander,

20     including the military police."

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note they do not have the

22     exact words of Judge Trechsel.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, in view of that, I'm going to quote the example of the

25     Operative Zone of South-East Herzegovina in order to try and answer that

Page 50856

 1     question, and I hope, thereby, contribute to a clarification of the

 2     issue.  Let's see what units existed in the South-East Herzegovina

 3     Operative Zone, to begin with, and to whom one of your orders sent to

 4     Miljenko Lasic for combat operations would refer.

 5             Tell us, in the territory of that operative zone, was the -- was

 6     there a special unit, Ludvig Pavlovic, and its headquarters?

 7        A.   Yes.  It was headquartered in Capljina.

 8        Q.   That unit, was it directly subordinated to the Main Staff?

 9        A.   Yes, it was.

10        Q.   On the territory of that operative zone, did the 1st Light

11     Assault Battalion of the Military Police have its headquarters too?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And to whom was the 1st Light Assault Battalion of the Military

14     Police subordinated?

15        A.   To the Military Police Administration.

16        Q.   In the territory of that same operative zone, did the

17     3rd Battalion of the Military Police have its headquarters?

18        A.   Yes, it did, that's correct.

19        Q.   In the territory of that same operative zone, did the brigades in

20     municipalities incorporated by the operative zone have their

21     headquarters?

22        A.   Yes, certainly.

23        Q.   Now, General, let's look at the situation.  The commander of the

24     operative zone was issued an order by you for some combat operation.  You

25     don't specify anything.  It simply goes to the operative zone, to

Page 50857

 1     Miljenko Lasic personally.  Now, tell us, an order of that kind, would it

 2     refer to the special Ludvig Pavlovic unit as well?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Does the that order refer to the 1st Light Assault Brigade of the

 5     Military Police?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Does that order refer to the 3rd Battalion of the Military

 8     Police?

 9        A.   No.

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I would like to correct the

11     transcript in line 19.  I was asking a hypothetical question, that

12     General Petkovic, as Chief of the Main Staff, issues an order

13     hypothetically to Miljenko Lasic, who was the commander of the North-East

14     Herzegovina Operative Zone.  So that was a hypothetical I was putting to

15     the general, to avoid any misunderstanding.

16             I think my time is almost up.  May I know how many more minutes I

17     have left, if any?

18             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I give you a bit of time to reflect by putting a

19     question to the witness.

20             Mr. Petkovic, I find it difficult to understand how this --

21     militarily, how this works.  We have a commander of the operation zone.

22     In this operation, there are units which, you say, are not under his

23     authority, and you give him the order to carry out an operation.  Now,

24     does the commander of the OZ have a possibility to somehow engage these

25     elements or does he have to go to the Military Police Administration and

Page 50858

 1     consult with Mr. Coric, for instance, to say, Look, I would like to do

 2     this with this light assault unit; do you allow or could you order them?

 3     I would like to know how this works, because I cannot really imagine it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if the units do not

 5     come within his composition, that is, the operative zone composition, he

 6     cannot issue them any assignments, regardless of the fact they had their

 7     headquarters in the same operative zone.  They're not his units.  What?

 8             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Who's the "he"?  Tell us who is the "he."

10        A.   The commander of the operative zone.  So he cannot issue an order

11     for an assignment, just those who come down within the schematic of his

12     units.  Everything else, if necessary, he must ask me for -- about

13     Ludvig Pavlovic and for the light assault battalion, to deploy that.  So

14     he doesn't have the right to deploy those forces.  And today, in many

15     armies throughout the world, you have within the territory of one area, a

16     number of units which are not, organisationally speaking, linked to that

17     particular commander.  So if you want to deploy the unit, you have to ask

18     permission, because he does not have authority over all the units located

19     in a particular territory.  So that's where the problem lies.  So he has

20     to ask the Main Staff for Ludvig Pavlovic, Bruno Busic, and so on.  He

21     can't deploy them himself, whereas they're very close by, they're in his

22     vicinity.  And also he can't deploy the light assault battalion, either,

23     because he has to be given permission and approval to deploy those

24     troops.  He doesn't have the right, himself, to deploy such and such a

25     unit, but he can ask for permission and he can be granted approval and

Page 50859

 1     permission.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  And you are saying that it is his initiative.

 3     He must analyse the order and then determine whether he wants to engage

 4     these additional forces that are within his zone, but not under his

 5     command, and then come back and ask for permission?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once he receives an

 7     order, it's his duty to assess what forces he has at his disposal, and

 8     then he says, I'm lacking something, I'm lacking Ludvig Pavlovic, for

 9     example, it would be a good thing if we had that.  And then he will

10     contact the Main Staff, explain why he needs the Ludvig Pavlovic, and

11     will then ask for Ludvig Pavlovic.  But the Chief of the Main Staff will

12     have to assess the situation and, once again, whether to give him the

13     whole unit, or 50 per cent of the men, or whatever.  And the situation

14     can be the reverse.  If you give him such an order, then you can say, In

15     addition to your unit, you have the right to deploy the Ludvig Pavlovic

16     or whatever, the Bruno Busic, or anything else that the Main Staff has at

17     its disposal.  So he can be given permission for that, but mustn't take

18     the men himself.  If he's lacking in manpower, he has to ask for manpower

19     and permission.  So that's what the situation was.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  This second scenario, that you, in giving an

21     order, also, of course, make an analysis of the forces needed, and then

22     directly on your initiative, also give the authority from the outset.

23     But then still there is the issue of the military police unit, and wasn't

24     it rather complicated and not very practical that the chief of the

25     operations zone must then address himself to Mr. Coric to ask for

Page 50860

 1     permission to use this light assault unit if he thinks he needs it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, regardless of the fact that

 3     it's complicated, that's what he has to do.  The deployment of the police

 4     in combat does not come within the remit and authority of the commander

 5     in the operative zone.  So he has to ask permission if he's going to use

 6     the police in combat.  And that's where his powers are limited.  He

 7     doesn't have the right to take that decision himself.  Once he's given

 8     permission, then he'll deploy that contingent for combat and will be

 9     responsible for it while he is using it.  Otherwise, himself, he doesn't

10     have the right to make this decision.

11             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's Mr. Coric on his feet.

13             I wish to tell the Petkovic Defence that you have another six

14     minutes left.

15             Yes, Mr. Coric.  Please do not forget that you will be testifying

16     too, so we can come back to these points.  What did you want to say?

17             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

18             Your Honours, the same witness told us a few days ago, on the 9th

19     of May in Mostar he enumerated all the units which took part in the

20     operation of the 9th of May.  He mentioned the military police,

21     Bruno Busic, Ludvig Pavlovic, precisely the units that were there.  And

22     the witness said how it came about that this operation took place, so it

23     would be realistic if we were to ask him now whether at the time this

24     establishment of his, referring to the main task as presented by him, was

25     it functioning that day, was it operative on that day?  Did anybody ask

Page 50861

 1     the chief of the Military Police Administration whether the military

 2     police would be taking part?

 3             Let me just tell you the military police lost 12 of its men that

 4     day, and there were 40 wounded, on the 9th of May alone.  So I'm going to

 5     ask him:  At that time, did he or anybody else from that system, which

 6     was our system and establishment as well, any request to the military

 7     police, the Ludvig Pavlovic, which, as he said, on that day they took

 8     part in the combat and situation that took place.

 9             Let's be practical.  Let's leave stories, as people recount them,

10     apart.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Petkovic, that will

12     certainly be Mr. Coric's last question.

13             With regard to the events of the 9th of May, I just discover that

14     there were 12 MPs killed and 40 wounded.  The combat was very intensive,

15     it appears, given the figures that have been mentioned.  The description

16     of the 9th of May, does it tally with what you have said?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it was an exceptional

18     situation.  When there was this emergency situation in Mostar, we are

19     talking about a regular situation.  For all other units, the commander of

20     the operative zone deployed everybody he could to defend Mostar, and then

21     the Main Staff was informed, and everything else.  So this was an

22     emergency situation that cropped up suddenly and we had to react.  In

23     Mostar, you had the military police at the time.  To the south, in

24     Heliodrom, you had the Bruno Busic and so on.  But this was an emergency

25     situation, and given this emergency situation, the commander of the

Page 50862

 1     operative zone took that step.

 2             And we were talking about procedure a moment ago, when you issue

 3     normal orders to the commander of the operative zone and tell him what he

 4     has to do and so on.  But he could have given up, said, I don't have the

 5     authority, and allowed Mostar to fall into the hands of the BH Army.

 6     However, the forces and men he had in Mostar, he used to the last man,

 7     including the 1st Light Assault Battalion in certain sections in the town

 8     of Mostar.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             You have six minutes left.

11             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   General, since Mr. Coric raised this subject, tell us, on the 9th

13     of May, 1993, when you returned to Mostar, did you speak to Mr. Coric?

14        A.   Yes, I did.  I met him in Mostar.  We spoke to each other about

15     everything that was happening in Mostar.  And as far as I know, he spent

16     the night in Mostar, that night in Mostar.

17        Q.   My last question concerns a question put to you by Judge Trechsel

18     again; paragraphs 76, 77, and 78 of the indictment.  I have an overview

19     of what I believe is relevant.  Document 4D -- it's in English, 4D2034.

20     It's in English, so don't look for it, General.

21             General, Judge Trechsel asked you about those paragraphs.  You

22     started saying -- well, let me just point out that these are paragraphs

23     in the indictment that concern Sovici and Doljani.  I have, in fact, the

24     Croatian text of the paragraphs.

25             Could we please show the general this extract?  Could the usher

Page 50863

 1     assist me so that the general can see what we are speaking about?

 2             General, you first mentioned a group of people who were in the

 3     school in Sovici, and together with their families, they were evacuated

 4     on the 5th of May, 1993.  Judge Trechsel then said, No, that is not

 5     right.  He mentioned the numbers mentioned in these paragraphs of the

 6     indictment; 70 to 90 military-aged Bosnian Muslim men.  You then started

 7     answering on page 49505, and you said that they were members of the ABiH

 8     who had surrendered on the 17th, and they were provided with

 9     accommodation in the school, and on the 18th they were taken to the

10     Ljubuski Prison.

11             Judge Trechsel concluded his questions with the following words,

12     I'll quote:

13             [In English] "I am not quite convinced that we are talking about

14     the same.  But I will leave it at that, and if the Prosecution wants to

15     take this up, I will let them.  I just wanted to give you an opportunity

16     to state your view.  Thank you."

17             [Interpretation] General, given that I would really like to

18     assist in determining the truth in this case, you have these paragraphs

19     from the indictment before you now.  Could you please comment?

20             And, Your Honours, in this document that I mentioned, 4D2034,

21     I've also shown you some of the adjudicated facts that relate to these

22     paragraphs of the indictment.  We haven't dealt with this because we

23     thought that this was indisputable.

24             Paragraph 76, General, the Prosecution says that a certain number

25     of Bosnian men tried -- or Muslim men tried to defend those villages.

Page 50864

 1     Were they civilians or were they members of a certain army?

 2        A.   They were members of the 44th Brigade from Jablanica.  The

 3     4th Battalion was before Sovici, in front of Sovici.  We saw a list of

 4     all the members of the 4th Battalion.  We saw who had what sort of

 5     weapons.  That's an exhibit in this case.

 6        Q.   Which army is concerned, General?

 7        A.   The ABiH.

 8        Q.   And then the paragraph further says that late in the afternoon on

 9     the 17th of April, 1993, they surrendered; is that correct, according to

10     your information?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The 4th Battalion of the ABiH, or most of

12     them, up to 90 soldiers, surrendered.  I don't know where the others

13     went, though.

14        Q.   Let's have a look at paragraph 77 now.  It says that on the 17th

15     to 18th of April, the HVO collected and detained approximately 70 to 90

16     military-aged Bosnian Muslim men at a school in Sovici.  General, are

17     these the members of the ABiH?

18        A.   Yes, they are members of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina.  Their commander signed for their surrender, Mr. Ovnovic.

20        Q.   This report further states that the HVO forces killed at least

21     four Bosnian Muslims near the Sovici school, and the HVO soldiers also

22     beat, mistreated, and abused other men.  General, in the Main Staff did

23     you receive a report on such treatment meted out by HVO members towards

24     ABiH members?

25        A.   No, we didn't receive such report.  We received information

Page 50865

 1     according to which about seven members of the ABiH had been killed, two

 2     were wounded, one of which was moved to the HVO hospital in Tomislavgrad.

 3        Q.   Let's have a look at paragraph 78 --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And then that will be the end.

 5             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] We'll then conclude.

 6        Q.   General, so I just have one final question in that case, General.

 7     My colleague Scott -- Mr. Scott completed his cross-examination by

 8     claiming that you participated or you were one of the participants -- you

 9     failed to process and punish HVO soldiers who had committed crimes in the

10     area of Herceg-Bosna.  My final question, General, is as follows:  In

11     your opinion, in fact, in Herceg-Bosna, who strove the most to solve the

12     conflict with the Muslims through negotiations, through agreement?

13        A.   I think I was the one who did that.  I met with them on the most

14     numerous occasions, spoke to them, and negotiated with them.

15        Q.   We saw an interview you gave for "Srna" in which you said that it

16     is better to negotiate for two years instead of to spend one day waging

17     war.  General, tell me, is that your position?

18        A.   Yes, that's my position, because when I saw what could be done in

19     wartime, naturally it's better to discuss matters and to allow everything

20     to be solved on a political level.

21             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have

22     no more time.  Thank you for the additional time you granted me.

23             With your leave, I would like to thank the interpreters, all the

24     interpreters, for their co-operation, and I apologise for driving a

25     little too fast on occasion.  I would, in particular, like to apologise

Page 50866

 1     to the English booth.  If we sometimes had comments about the

 2     interpretation and failed to make these comments with tact, that really

 3     wasn't our intention.  We just want to do have a faithful transcript.

 4     And thank you, and I do apologise if we have offended them.

 5             Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             Mr. Kovacic.

 8             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to

 9     intervene with regard to the transcript.  On page 35, line 20, it says

10     that General Petkovic said:

11             [In English] "About seven members of the ABiH had been killed."

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I heard him saying about seven

14     members of the ABiH were killed in combat, two were wounded, and one was

15     moved to the HVO hospital.  That's what it says.  They weren't killed;

16     they died in combat.  That was how it was put.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they died in combat.

18             To conclude, Your Honours, I just have half a minute.  Yesterday,

19     my counsel asked me about a meeting with Susak, and forgot to mention a

20     date, and I would like to mention it now.

21             In December 1993, at the invitation of Minister Jukic,

22     General Roso, the HVO discussed about how to reorganise the

23     Guards Brigades, and at a meeting, at that discussion Mr. Susak was

24     present with two or three Croatian Army officers.  They were to give

25     instructions as to how we should organise the Guards Brigades, because we

Page 50867

 1     had no experience.  So as to my meeting with Mr. Susak, well, that's what

 2     I would like to add, what happened in December 1993.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's in the

 4     transcript now.

 5             Mr. Scott.

 6             MR. SCOTT:  Good morning, Mr. President, good morning to each of

 7     Your Honours.  Good morning to counsel, good morning to all those in and

 8     around the courtroom.

 9             Your Honours, before we break, and just to close out the record,

10     so to speak, on Mr. Petkovic's testimony, it seemed to us, in further

11     reflecting on wrapping things up on this, that as to the various tables

12     that the Prosecution submitted, that for the purposes of the record they

13     should be at least identified -- if nothing else, identified, because

14     they were used fairly extensively at some places.  We would ask to give

15     an IC list to each of the tables.

16             And we've raised this with the Registry, and perhaps the easiest

17     way for me to do this is to give the title of our tables, and the

18     Registry can assist us by assigning an IC number.  And then I have one

19     other very brief matter to raise.  If we could just do that, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No problem.

21             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             The first table that we tendered -- well, not tendered, my

23     apologies, we used with the witness --

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Before you start

25     enumerating this, could we just express our position?

Page 50868

 1             The Petkovic Defence, Your Honours, is against this request,

 2     because so far the rule has been that IC numbers should be given only for

 3     documents with regard to which a witness has made certain comments.  My

 4     colleague Mr. Scott wants IC numbers for documents that he compiled, and

 5     they are a compilation of a number of documents, and this would then fail

 6     to comply with the obligation that for documents that aren't exhibits, in

 7     accordance with your rules, he should show why there is a good reason to

 8     use those documents now, although he didn't use them before, although

 9     they aren't 65 ter list documents.  If IC numbers are given to these

10     documents, to these documents compiled, which weren't commented by

11     Mr. Petkovic, I think this would be contrary to the rules.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, we won't start a

13     discussion about that now.  Given your documents -- your documents, your

14     charts, you can list them on a document, and then in conformity with our

15     guide-lines, ask for them to be admitted.  The Defence will then object

16     or will refer to page 34 for its objection, and then the Chamber will

17     rule.

18             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honour, and I do appreciate that.

19     And it sounds to me, at least, if I can be bold enough to say, I think

20     the Chamber and the Prosecution, at least in this respect, are on the

21     same page.  I think my good friend Ms. Alaburic has jumped the gun, as

22     often happens.  We haven't tendered them into admission yet, but there is

23     a basic practice of identify matters that have been used in the

24     courtroom.  And if I compare this to the number of maps and other items

25     Mr. Praljak has had -- among others, has had marked in the courtroom, I

Page 50869

 1     don't see any distinction whatsoever.

 2             If the Prosecution tenders them into admission, if we do, then,

 3     of course, there will be a separate phase in which those issues can be

 4     raised.

 5             So for purposes that they are in the record, so to speak, and

 6     they are identified, we used a title -- table titled "Herceg-Bosna and

 7     the HVO," and I would ask for an IC number to be provided to that.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll confer with my colleague.

 9     You agree?  Yes, the Chamber agrees.

10             MR. SCOTT:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             MR. SCOTT:  Do you want to do them, Mr. Registry [sic], one by

13     one, or -- either way is easiest for you.

14             We have:  "The HV Croatian Army in Bosnia and Herzegovina";

15     "Serb-Croat Co-operation"; "HVO-Serb Co-operation in Vares"; "Forced

16     Labour"; "Military Discipline and Justice."  There should be one more.

17     There should be one more, Your Honour, I'm sorry, the one we used at the

18     end of the day yesterday.  Sorry, Your Honour, there's one stapled

19     together.  My fault.  And then there was one called "HVO Enforcement

20     Actions."  Those are the tables we used, Your Honour.

21             We would also tender, as a group -- sorry, strike the word

22     "tender."  We would also ask to identify as a group, again for purposes

23     of being identified in the record, the actual slides that we used with

24     the witness which we would tender as a group.  And in the interests of

25     time, I can provide those particular slide numbers to the Registry.

Page 50870

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

 2     collective number.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             For each of the documents just mentioned by the Prosecutor, I

 5     shall give IC01195, 01196, 01197, 01198, 01199, 011200 [sic], and for the

 6     consolidated slides, I shall give it IC01201.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Small correction.  01200 will be the last one,

 8     not 011200.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Thank you.

10             MR. SCOTT:  Your Honours, in the final item and I know it's

11     getting a bit past the normal break time, but then we can hopefully

12     start -- finish -- start clean after the break.

13             The Chamber will recall, perhaps, that with some of these more

14     extensive witnesses, I think its been a practice and we would certainly

15     ask that we have a little bit of additional time to provide the IC list,

16     and this would apply to all parties, not just the Prosecution, in terms

17     of the documents actually being tendered.  I spoke about this with

18     Ms. Alaburic a couple of days ago.  It was an agreement that all the

19     parties could tender their IC lists for Mr. Petkovic not later than next

20     Wednesday, if that would be agreeable to the Chamber.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber agrees.

22             MR. SCOTT:  Thanks.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             General Petkovic, we will now have our break.  You will now

25     return to your former place that is to my right, and then we will be

Page 50871

 1     calling the Coric Defence witness.

 2             So we will have a 20-minute break now.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

 7             Ms. Alaburic, you have no more witnesses.  As we are living in a

 8     certain formalism, it is necessary to say, for the benefit of the

 9     transcript, that you have no more witnesses.

10             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do not have any

11     further witnesses.  We have completed our case with the testimony of

12     General Petkovic.  We assume that nothing out of the ordinary will happen

13     in the meantime.  We do not intend to appeal for certification of witness

14     statements under 92 bis.  We do, indeed, intend to file a request for

15     documentary evidence.  And could you give us a dead-line that would be

16     until the end of this month of this year, if possible, for the filing of

17     this motion?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Witness, will you stand, please.

20             Could you tell us your first and last name, and date of birth,

21     please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Miroslav Desnica.  I was born

23     on the 10th of December, 1957.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

25     occupation?

Page 50872

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm currently unemployed.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified in a

 3     court of law on the events that took place in ex-Yugoslavia or is this

 4     the first time?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time for me to

 6     testify.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please read the solemn

 8     declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  MIROSLAV DESNICA

12                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  You may be

14     seated.

15             I wish to bid you good day once again.  Let me give you some

16     information.

17             You are going to answer questions that will be put to you by the

18     counsel for Mr. Coric.  After that, Mr. Kovacic may have some questions

19     for you.  I don't know; this is possible.  It's also possible for the

20     other counsel to have questions for you.  After that, the Prosecutor will

21     have an hour to ask you questions.  The Judges before you may also ask

22     you questions.

23             As we have a very tight agenda, if everything evolves normally

24     and there are no problems linked to objections, your testimony may be

25     completed today.  Should there be problems and objections, then it is

Page 50873

 1     possible that we will continue with your testimony on Monday.

 2             That is what I wanted to say, hoping that everything will evolve

 3     as planned.

 4             Without further adieu, I give the floor to Defence counsel.

 5             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

 6     Good day to everyone in the courtroom.  Good day, Mr. Desnica.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day.

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] With the permission of

 9     the Trial Chamber, I have already spoken to Mr. Scott about this and they

10     don't mind, I would like, as an introduction, to put a leading question

11     to you linked to your curriculum vitae, if I get permission from the

12     Chamber so as to save time.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, no problem.

14                           Examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Desnica, is it true from 1972 until 1976,

16     you attended a secondary school in Zagreb?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   I will read out the places that you were in so that you will

19     answer all of these questions at once.

20             Is it true that from 1976 until 1980, you attended and completed

21     the Naval Military Academy in Split?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   After that, until 1990, you were a member of the Yugoslav Navy,

24     from which you left with the role of lieutenant of a military vessel in

25     1990?

Page 50874

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it true that from 1990 until 1991, you were a teacher in the

 3     Naval Centre in Split, teaching the subject of special equipment and

 4     armaments?

 5        A.   Yes, that is right.

 6        Q.   Is it also correct that from 1991 until 1997, you were employed

 7     in the MUP of the Republic of Croatia, the Police Administration for

 8     Split and Dalmatia, the Department for Defence Affairs, with the title of

 9     independent inspector?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Is it also right that in 1997, you left the MUP of the Republic

12     of Croatia?

13        A.   Yes, that is right.

14        Q.   That's all.  Mr. Desnica, will you please look at the documents?

15             Could we have the assistance of the usher?  Could he give the

16     witness the documents, please?

17             Mr. Desnica, would you look at the first document in the binder.

18     That is document PD05109 [as interpreted] -- 5D5109.  Tell me, is this

19     your statement, Mr. Desnica?

20        A.   Yes, it is my statement.

21        Q.   Did you have occasion to read this statement in its entirety?

22        A.   Yes, I did, in its entirety.

23        Q.   Tell me, do you stand by everything you said in the statement or

24     do you wish to change or add anything to it?

25        A.   I wish to stand by this statement in its entirety.

Page 50875

 1        Q.   If you were to testify once again about the facts that you

 2     testified to in your statement, would your testimony be the same to what

 3     is contained in the statement?

 4        A.   Yes, my statement would be absolutely the same as that contained

 5     in this statement.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Desnica.  Now let us have a look at a few more

 7     documents.

 8             Will you please -- to remind you, you have your statement in

 9     front of you, and in paragraph 8 of that statement you mention the

10     literature that you used in the training process.  So in that connection,

11     I'd like us to look at a few documents.  The first is PD05113

12     [as interpreted] -- 5D0 -- 5D5113.

13             Tell me, please, Mr. Desnica, what kind of document is this, and

14     are you familiar with this document?

15        A.   It is a textbook for police officer, and it's entitled "Command

16     and Combat Tactics in the Police."

17        Q.   You have seen paragraph 8 of your statement, so look at the pages

18     and paragraphs linked to the training.  What could you tell us about this

19     document?

20        A.   This document -- or, rather, these paragraphs discuss the use of

21     police forces in peacetime and exceptional conditions, that is, in

22     possible wartime.

23        Q.   Look now at document PD0 -- 5D -- 5D05114, and tell me, again,

24     what kind of a document this is.

25        A.   This is also a handbook for the training of policemen, and it

Page 50876

 1     deals with subjects linked to the lawfulness of the activities of the

 2     police forces.

 3        Q.   The next document, please, 5D05115.  The same question again.

 4     What kind of document is this?

 5        A.   It is the Law on Internal Affairs or the Constitutional Law of

 6     the Republic of Croatia, and the main thesis or the main topic is linked

 7     to humaneness, that is, the principles underlying the law.

 8        Q.   On page 3 from the beginning, you have a section relating to

 9     human rights and freedoms.  In your statement, you said that you used

10     this in training.  Why did you use this?

11        A.   Because we sought to underline, through the Constitutional Law as

12     the fundamental law of any state, though this was in another state, but

13     this is an example from our own state, linked to the human rights and

14     freedoms, which are the fundamental principles of such a law, based on

15     international conventions on the protection of human rights, et cetera.

16        Q.   Let me caution you.  You have to slow down a little.  You're

17     speaking too fast.

18             Look now at the document 2D00751.  And tell me what you know

19     about this document, but slowly, please, very slowly.

20        A.   This is a handbook regarding the rules of behaviour for

21     combatants, which was not our own edition, but we came across -- or,

22     rather, the trainees had these handbooks in their possession.

23        Q.   And now please look at the last document in the binder, P0007,

24     and tell me if you have seen this document before and whether you know

25     what kind of document this is, and did it have any connection with the

Page 50877

 1     training you referred to in your statement?

 2        A.   These are rules on the application of International Laws of War

 3     in the Armed Forces of the SFRY.  In view of the fact that we didn't have

 4     any other literature linked to International War Law, we used textbooks

 5     from the former SFRY; that is, the Yugoslav People's Army.

 6        Q.   Does this mean that you used this particular handbook?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Desnica.

 9             Your Honours, that concludes our examination-in-chief.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

11             For the Petkovic, who asked for some time with this witness, are

12     there any -- I'm sorry.  Yes, Ms. Alaburic.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there were

14     other Defence counsels before me that have some questions.  But our

15     agreement is that when a new Defence starts, that Mr. Prlic's Defence

16     should be first.  Could I ask the other Defence counsels whether they

17     have questions?  If they have none, I can start.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Karnavas.

19             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

20     Your Honours, good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

21             I did not come prepared to ask any questions, but it is because

22     of one answer yesterday, I'm compelled to ask a couple of questions of

23     the gentleman.  So I'll need about five minutes.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

25        Q.   Good morning, sir.

Page 50878

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   A hypothetical:  A soldier, he leaves the combat area, and now

 3     he's going home to visit his mother or to do whatever.  Is he a soldier

 4     at that time or is he a civilian; if he's on leave, that is?

 5        A.   He is definitely a soldier.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, if that soldier, who is on leave, then commits a

 7     crime, rapes a civilian woman, kills an elderly civilian, are the

 8     civilian authorities responsible for that soldier's crime, who's on

 9     leave, or is the military commander responsible for that soldier; to do

10     something about it, that is?

11        A.   In principle, it is always the military authorities that are

12     responsible, but they may defer the case to the civilian authorities.

13             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you very much, sir.  I have no further

14     questions, and I want to thank you for coming here to give your evidence.

15             No further questions, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             The next Defence, please.

18             It seems that Ms. Alaburic wishes to be last.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Alaburic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Desnica.

21             Your Honours, in the meantime we will distribute the documents

22     that we have prepared for the cross-examination of this witness.

23             And while that is being done, tell me, Mr. Desnica, when

24     answering the question from Mr. Karnavas whether, for a particular crime

25     committed by a soldier, when he's not on duty, whether it is the civilian

Page 50879

 1     or the military authorities that are responsible, or, rather, the

 2     military commander, your answer was that, in principle, it is the

 3     military authorities, but that it is possible that this can be dealt with

 4     in a different way --

 5             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

 6             I apologise.  I think Madam Alaburic was paraphrasing the answer

 7     given by the witness incorrectly.  I think it would be best for us to

 8     look at the transcript and read what the witness actually said.

 9             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Tell me, Witness, when you spoke of the military authorities, who

11     did you have in mind?  Which military authorities?

12        A.   The military authorities that are responsible for that person.

13        Q.   And who is that?  Is it the minister of defence, the military

14     police, the SIS, the commander of his brigade, or who?  Who is the

15     authority responsible?

16        A.   From the standpoint of prevention, there is the responsibility of

17     his own command.  They have responsibility to prevent any kind of action.

18        Q.   The question was not about prevention.  The question was of a

19     particular situation when a soldier, who is not on duty, who is going to

20     visit his mother at home, commits a crime.  Who is responsible?  Who will

21     deal with the investigation of that crime?

22        A.   The military police.

23        Q.   When you said "military authority," "responsible military

24     authorities," did you mean the military police?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 50880

 1        Q.   Tell us, Mr. Desnica, a soldier in a brigade, for example, in

 2     Mostar, has his mother living in Prozor, and he goes to visit his mother

 3     in Prozor and he's not on duty, and he commits a crime in Prozor --

 4             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to

 5     react.

 6             From the witness's statement, it does not follow anywhere that

 7     the witness is familiar with the structure or any kind of regulations of

 8     the HZ-HB that were in force at the time.  One shouldn't laugh.  It's not

 9     funny.  And we are asking him a specific question about a specific area.

10     Colleague Karnavas put a hypothetical about a soldier anywhere in the

11     world.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, this escaped me.

13     The witness was a military policeman in the Croatian Army.  Therefore, he

14     is not familiar with the HVO, a priori.  So it's better for you to put to

15     him a hypothetical question.  If a soldier is living in Zagreb and going

16     to see his mother in Split, for example, or in Dubrovnik, that would be

17     simpler.

18             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

19             I think there's been a misunderstanding.  The witness was never a

20     member of the Croatian Army.  He was in the Yugoslav Navy, and after that

21     he was a policeman in the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

22     Croatia.  So a civilian policeman and a police inspector.  He wasn't in

23     the military structures of Croatia at all.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, you're right, you're

25     right.  All the more reason.

Page 50881

 1             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Go ahead, Mr. Desnica.  When responding to questions from

 3     Mr. Jadranko Prlic's Defence, what did you base your answer on?

 4        A.   I based it on practice in Croatia.

 5        Q.   Does that mean that you do not know what the provisions were in

 6     Herceg-Bosna?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   You mean you don't know?

 9        A.   No, I don't know.

10        Q.   Does that mean that you don't know what the practice was in

11     Herceg-Bosna?

12        A.   I don't know what the practice was, no.

13        Q.   Now, staying with Croatia, a member of a brigade in Split, for

14     example, goes to visit his mother in Vukovar, and in Vukovar he commits a

15     crime.  What is the responsibility, if you know - if you don't, tell

16     us - of the -- what is the responsibility of the commander of his brigade

17     who's in Split, that is to say, some 700 kilometres away from Vukovar in

18     which the soldier was at the time he committed the crime?  What is the

19     responsibility of his military commander under those circumstances?

20        A.   I didn't understand your question.  How do you mean

21     "responsibility"?

22        Q.   Criminal responsibility.  To what extent is his commander

23     criminally responsible for the crime committed by his soldier who was on

24     leave visiting his mother?  If you don't know, just tell us.

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 50882

 1        Q.   Mr. Desnica, I'm going to ask you a few questions now with

 2     respect to tuition within the military police, and I have prepared two

 3     documents on the topic.

 4             Can we provide the witness with the documents?  He's already got

 5     them, right.

 6             So take a look at P3090, which is the first document, please.

 7     This is a report on the work of the military police, and what I'm

 8     interested in is to be found on that page.  In the upper right-hand

 9     corner, the page number is 0153-6239, the digits at the top.  And it's a

10     report on the work related to the Training and Tuitional Centre at

11     Ljubuski.  Have you found the page, Mr. Desnica?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   Tell us, please -- you can read this passage.  It's relatively

14     short.  The Training and Educational Centre at Ljubuski, is that the same

15     centre that you referred to in your statement?

16        A.   Probably it is.  But may I take a few minutes to read through the

17     text?

18        Q.   Were there two training centres in the military police in

19     Ljubuski?

20        A.   I don't have any knowledge about that.

21        Q.   Now, in the third section, it talks about training for crime

22     technicians.  Tell us, please, do you have any knowledge about

23     training -- the training of crime technicians?  Are you familiar with

24     that?

25        A.   No.

Page 50883

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, in para 5 -- no, para 6, I apologise, in the

 2     report by the Military Police Administration, it says the following, and

 3     I quote:

 4             "At our request, the training of snipers was conducted, because

 5     the problem occurred in Mostar -- there was this problem in Mostar

 6     whereby the opposite side had exceptionally good snipers, which led to

 7     the blockade of our units.  We, therefore, trained six pairs of snipers,

 8     and at the end of the training session they had five times better results

 9     than when they started their training.  One of the problems with the

10     training was that we did not have weapons of sufficient quality, or

11     enough time, because this is a very complex issue.  All the trainees were

12     extremely pleased, and now the sniping score in Mostar was 6:1, to our

13     advantage, in our favour."

14             Now, my question to you, Witness, is this:  Do you have any

15     knowledge about the training of snipers in the Training Centre of the

16     Military Police in Ljubuski?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell us, when it says "at our request" the training of

19     snipers was conducted, so whose request was it?  Who asked that snipers

20     be trained?  Who made that request?

21        A.   Obviously, somebody who signed this document, which I can't see

22     now because I've never seen this document before.

23        Q.   Well, I'm talking about the training of snipers.  Do you know who

24     made the decision that in the Training Centre of the Military Police in

25     Ljubuski, snipers should be trained?

Page 50884

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Now, at the end of this document -- or let's move on

 3     to the next document.

 4             The next document that you have in your binder is P957, which is

 5     a decision on the establishment of the military police of the HVO, which,

 6     on the 26th of December, 1992, was passed by Mr. Valentin Coric and

 7     Mr. Bruno Stojic.  At the beginning of this document, Mr. Desnica, we see

 8     mention of the 1st Military Police Battalion, and it is said that it was

 9     active duty and directly linked to the Military Police Administration or,

10     rather, the head, and pursuant to an order from the head, it is active in

11     all the territory of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  This

12     1st Battalion was composed of the command, with the Communications

13     Department and three companies, and the 1st Company was the light assault

14     unit specially trained and equipped to carry out the most difficult

15     intervention tasks or, rather, anti-terrorist activity.  The members of

16     the 1st Company are professionals, and it is composed of the command, two

17     anti-terrorist platoons, and two squads with combat armoured vehicles.

18             Tell us, please, Mr. Desnica, do you have any knowledge

19     whatsoever about the true activities on the ground of this 1st Company of

20     the Light Assault Battalion of the Military Police?

21        A.   No knowledge whatsoever.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, tell us, in the Training Centre at Ljubuski,

23     were military policemen trained there for even the most complex tasks of

24     intervention or anti-terrorist activity?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 50885

 1        Q.   It says here -- well, two squads are mentioned with combat

 2     armoured vehicles.  Can you tell us what kind of combat armoured vehicles

 3     these were?

 4        A.   I said that I have no knowledge about any of this.

 5        Q.   Well, then, I misunderstood you, because you said that in

 6     Ljubuski, people were trained in anti-terrorist activities.

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   But you don't know what equipment they had, is that what you are

 9     telling me?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   In the Training Centre in Ljubuski, did you train members of the

12     military police in the use of mortars?

13        A.   No.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

15     questions.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Praljak Defence.

17             MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Mr. Praljak Defence will not have any questions for that witness.

19             Thank you, Witness, for coming.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the Stojic Defence.

21             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] The Stojic Defence has no questions

22     for this witness either, and we'd like to thank the witness for coming

23     into court.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Pusic Defence?

25             MR. IBRISIMOVIC:  [Interpretation] No questions.  Thank you,

Page 50886

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Counsel, the Prosecution has an hour, in accordance with the

 4     decision handed down by the Chamber.  You have the floor.

 5             MR. STRUGGLES:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, and good afternoon

 6     to everyone else in and around the courtroom.

 7             If we can have the assistance of the usher, please, to hand out

 8     the binder, please.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Struggles:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Desnica.  If I can ask you first to turn to

11     your own statement.  This is Exhibit 5D05109.  And if I can ask you to

12     look at the very last sentence of your statement.  That's paragraph 9,

13     the very last sentence.

14             On the side of the documents that you have beside you, you'll see

15     a series of tabs, and you'll see one is numbered 5D.  And so you'll find

16     the B/C/S versions in there behind the English.

17             And if we can look at the very last paragraph, very last

18     sentence.

19             In this paragraph, you say that in 1992, in Neum, an instructor

20     used the term "balija," during a class, and after which he was removed

21     from Bosnia-Herzegovina and returned to Croatia, and at that time he was

22     relieved and degraded.  I wonder if you can give us a few more details

23     about this incident.  Specifically, who did the instructor work for?

24        A.   He was a MUP member of the Republic of Croatia.

25        Q.   And presumably this happened in the fall of 1992, in late 1992,

Page 50887

 1     is that correct, after the Neum Training Centre had been established?

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you please tell us the instructor's exact words and in what

 4     context this happened?

 5        A.   As to the exact words, I can't tell you.  But during the

 6     discussion, the man used the word or term "balija" in a platoon where

 7     most of the members were Muslims.  And after that, it was decided to

 8     remove the person from the centre.  This was done discreetly.  And when

 9     one of those cycles ended, he was removed and didn't turn up for any more

10     training.

11        Q.   And who exactly removed him from the centre?

12        A.   The centre's command.

13        Q.   And which exact organisation was that?  Was that the MUP of

14     Republic of Croatia or was that another organ?

15        A.   The centre was headed by members from Bosnia-Herzegovina or,

16     rather, from the military police.  So in co-operation with our team that

17     conducted the training, they took the decision to remove that person from

18     the training centre.

19        Q.   And you say that not only was he sent back to Croatia, but that

20     he was degraded, or that's the word we have in the translation.

21     Presumably, you mean demoted.

22        A.   Yes, demoted, stripped of his function, of his rank.  He was

23     assistant commander in the traffic police, and he taught the subject of

24     traffic.  And after that, he became a regular policeman and did not

25     occupy that post anymore.

Page 50888

 1        Q.   So this was a matter that was taken extremely seriously?  The

 2     instructor lost his job, he was sent back to Croatia, and he was demoted?

 3        A.   Well, not his rank, but just his position.  His rank remained the

 4     same, but he did not -- no longer occupied the position he had previously

 5     occupied.

 6        Q.   It's my fault.  When I said "his job," I mean he lost his

 7     position as an instructor.

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   So we can conclude from this, I think, that it is unacceptable

10     for an instructor to use the term "balija"; is that correct?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   Indeed, I think you would agree with me that it's unacceptable

13     for anyone to use the term "balija."

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   But as an instructor, he was a person in authority?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   And it's because he was a person in authority that this was taken

18     so seriously?

19        A.   That's right.

20        Q.   And as a person in authority, by using this term, he undermined

21     the control climate -- he set the wrong tone and undermined the control

22     climate of the military police; is that correct?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   And I think you would agree with me that, similarly, if a senior

25     HVO officer was to use the term "balija," it would be equally

Page 50889

 1     unacceptable, and for the very same reasons.

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Desnica.  If I can ask you to clarify one point

 4     from your statement.

 5             At no point in your statement does it say exactly who you were

 6     training, and can I take it that you were training the HVO military

 7     police?

 8        A.   Yes, we trained the military police of the HVO, that's right.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And if we can turn now to the type of training that

10     you provided.

11             But first, just before that, if you can give me an overall

12     figure -- an approximate overall figure, if you can, of the number of HVO

13     military policemen who, by the middle of 1993, had completed the type of

14     training you were offering or you offered, you and your colleagues.

15        A.   If we include -- well, if you mean the training from 1992, you

16     want the total figure, do you mean the total number of people?

17        Q.   If you can, sir, if you can give us an estimate of what

18     percentage of the HVO military police had completed training by the

19     middle of 1993.

20        A.   Roughly, about 400 persons.

21        Q.   And you say in paragraph 6 of your statement, which is on the

22     start of page 3 in the B/C/S, you say that no one could successfully

23     complete their training without acquiring knowledge of the Geneva

24     Conventions and the International Laws of War.  That's correct; right?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 50890

 1        Q.   And this would have, therefore, meant that each military

 2     policeman who left your course would have known, for example, the

 3     following things: that no one should be detained arbitrarily?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   Nobody should be detained simply on the basis of their ethnicity?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   And there was an obligation, on the part of those detaining

 8     others, to detain them always in -- always humanely?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   And that would include -- the humane treatment of detainees would

11     include ensuring that those detainees were not subject to cruel treatment

12     or torture?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   That they were protected from physical violence?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   Their basic human requirements as to food and water were met?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   And one last example, that they would know that detainees should

19     not be compelled to do work of a military or dangerous character; for

20     example, working at the front-lines?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And all of this would come from -- well, they would know all of

23     this because they had been taught this while on your course?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   Mr. Desnica, if we can look now at paragraph 4 of your statement.

Page 50891

 1     This is in the middle of page 2 in both the English and the B/C/S.

 2             In paragraph 4, you state that you provided training in Mostar,

 3     Ljubuski, and Neum.  You state that the Ljubuski Training Centre was set

 4     up in April 1993 and you provided training during the summer of 1993.

 5             What was the last date that you provided any training to the HVO

 6     military police in HZ-HB; do you recall?

 7        A.   I haven't understood your question.

 8        Q.   What was the last date that you provided any training to the HVO

 9     military police?

10        A.   I would say around June 1993.

11        Q.   So you provided no further training after June of 1993?

12        A.   I personally didn't, but some training was still provided for

13     forensic experts.

14        Q.   I'd like you now to turn to the exhibit which is marked P01752.

15     That's the very first exhibit in your bundle.  It's the very first

16     exhibit.

17        A.   10752 [as interpreted], yes.

18        Q.   For the record, it's P01752.

19             Mr. Desnica, this is an order from Valentin Coric, from

20     March 1993, and you'll -- if we can read it together, you can see that

21     pursuant to a decision to set up a centre for training, military

22     policemen in Ljubuski and Dretelj, Mr. Coric appoints

23     Colonel Mate Bradacic as instruction supervisor in the

24     Military Police Administration, and his appointment is to begin as of the

25     29th of March, 1993.  Did you ever meet with Mr. Bradacic?

Page 50892

 1        A.   Not with Mr. Bradacic, but with Mr. Bradasic [phoen], yes.  So

 2     the name hasn't been correctly spelled here.

 3        Q.   My apologies.  And did you have contact in general with the

 4     Military Police Administration during this period in respect of training?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  We had contact with them at the time.

 6        Q.   And would that have included contact with Mr. Coric?

 7        A.   As he was in the centre, there was contact with him.  But I

 8     personally had no contact with him, but with the leadership or the

 9     management of the centre.

10        Q.   So on no occasion did you meet Mr. Coric or communicate with him?

11        A.   Unofficially, yes, I did.

12        Q.   Can you tell us when that was?

13        A.   It was while the centre was working in Ljubuski.  It was

14     unofficial, not in the sense of co-ordinating the work of the centre.  It

15     was unofficial, in that we met by chance in that centre and had lunch

16     together.

17        Q.   And had you known Mr. Coric from before that time?

18        A.   This also had to do with training in Neum, because he would also

19     go to Neum.  And upon completion of that training, he would issue certain

20     diplomas to the participants, to those who had attended the training in

21     the centre and who had been successful.

22        Q.   If we can turn now to the training that you provided.  You've

23     told us that you provided training at the Ljubuski Training Centre?  And

24     that, presumably -- sorry, there is no answer in the transcript.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's

Page 50893

 1     answer.

 2             MR. STRUGGLES:

 3        Q.   Can you repeat your answer, please?  I think you nodded, sir, but

 4     you didn't see anything.  You told us that you completed --

 5        A.   I apologise.  Could you please repeat the question?  I've lost my

 6     bearings now.

 7        Q.   You've told us that you provided training at the Ljubuski

 8     Training Centre; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   And, presumably, you provided that training, therefore, between

11     April to June of 1993.

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And did you, similarly, provide training at the Dretelj Training

14     Centre during this period?

15        A.   I never heard of a training centre in Dretelj.  I personally

16     never heard of that.

17        Q.   Well, we see, in the document that we were just looking at, that

18     it was decided to establish a training centre for military policemen in

19     both Ljubuski and Dretelj.

20        A.   I personally never went to Dretelj.

21        Q.   But had you heard of that training centre being established?

22        A.   No, I hadn't heard about it, nor had I ever seen a document of

23     this kind.

24        Q.   If we can turn back to Ljubuski, then.  How many times did you

25     provide training in Ljubuski during the period from April to June of

Page 50894

 1     1993?

 2        A.   There was training that was continually provided during that

 3     period of time.  There were short breaks between groups that lasted for

 4     perhaps one week.

 5        Q.   So would you come to Ljubuski specifically for the training or

 6     were you living in Ljubuski during this period?

 7        A.   While training was being provided, we had accommodation in the

 8     Military Police Center in Ljubuski.  That is where the training was

 9     provided.

10        Q.   Can you tell us the exact location of the Military Police

11     Training Centre in Ljubuski?

12        A.   I think that it was in a building that used to be some sort of a

13     correctional centre or a prison.  I'm not sure what it was called, what

14     it was before.  I don't know exactly how I could explain to you where the

15     location of that building was.  If you had a map, I could show you.

16        Q.   Well, was that the same building as the headquarters of the

17     Military Police Administration?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  It was in the same building, that's right.

19        Q.   So, presumably, while you were at the headquarters, at the

20     Military Police Administration building, you would have spoken with

21     regular military policemen at that time?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct, in my free time.

23        Q.   So in your free time, you would socialise with the policemen, the

24     military policemen from Ljubuski?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 50895

 1        Q.   I want to talk now about the Ljubuski Prison.  There was a prison

 2     in Ljubuski where detainees were kept.  Do you know of the prison I'm

 3     talking about?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   You're not aware that there was a prison in Ljubuski where

 6     detainees were kept in the period while you were there in Ljubuski?

 7        A.   No, I had no such information.

 8        Q.   So in each of the -- when you were discussing with the military

 9     policemen -- sorry.  When you met and had conversations with the local

10     Ljubuski military policemen, they never once spoke about the

11     Ljubuski Prison?

12        A.   No, that subject was never discussed.

13        Q.   So you would, therefore, say that you were unaware of anything

14     that might have been happening at that prison?

15        A.   No, I had no information about the prison or about events that

16     took place in the prison.

17             MR. STRUGGLES:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Does the Defence have any re-examination?

20             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on behalf of my colleagues,

23     I would like to thank you for having come here, as requested by the Coric

24     Defence, to shed light on the training provided in Neum and Ljubuski.

25             I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

Page 50896

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 3             For the Coric Defence, next week we will be starting with

 4     Mr. Andabak, if I'm not mistaken.  Everything has been planned for, there

 5     are no problems.  He will be arriving, you will meet him, and you will be

 6     proofing him?

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             If everything goes well, everything is fine, Mr. Andabak has

 9     already arrived, I don't have any information according to which things

10     have gone wrong, but if everything has gone according to plan, he should

11     be at Schiphol, provided that snow hasn't prevented the plane from

12     arriving.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's hope that the snow hasn't

14     caused any problems, and let's hope that he's already here.

15             Mr. Scott.

16             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             Since we have a bit -- well, it's nice to have a bit of extra

18     time, I suppose, but since we do have a moment, I thought it would be

19     appropriate to raise -- and I guess it falls to me to raise it, but I

20     know from various conversations it's something that a number of people in

21     the room are thinking about.

22             In looking ahead at the Coric trial schedule, we note, as it

23     currently exists, that on the 8th of April, which was a day that we were

24     going to sit that week, there is no -- there is no witness scheduled.

25     That's not meant in any form of criticism.  The Prosecution understands

Page 50897

 1     the difficulties sometimes encountered in scheduling a witness.  However,

 2     perhaps to state the obvious, and I don't think anyone needs to be

 3     concerned about the fact that everyone's been working hard, and willing

 4     to do so, but it would seem perhaps to raise a question about the value

 5     of having that court day scheduled and requiring people to come back from

 6     a week of -- possible week of holiday when there is no witness scheduled

 7     for that day.  Perhaps the Chamber could consider that and give us some

 8     additional guidance for the days ahead.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's correct.  In April,

10     there won't be any witnesses for two weeks, that's correct.  The week

11     that starts the 5th and ends the 8th, no witness, and the week that

12     starts the 12th, so from the 12th to the 18th, there will be no witnesses

13     either.  So the Coric Defence has provided everyone with a schedule.  It

14     seems perfect.

15             MR. SCOTT:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             And I think on this occasion, perhaps I can say a thank you on

17     behalf of all those in the courtroom for that clarification.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That will allow

19     everyone to have a rest and to prepare for the witnesses, because it

20     involves a huge amount of work.  The Chamber is currently working on the

21     Praljak Defence motion for the admission of documents into evidence.

22     It's a lot of work, and then we'll have to do the same work for the

23     Petkovic Defence.  So I do understand that everyone has an enormous

24     workload, given all the problems that we have to deal with on a daily

25     basis.

Page 50898

 1             We will meet again on Monday.  And let's hope that the plane has

 2     landed, but one should have faith.  Thank you.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.01 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of March,

 5                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.