Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 51435

 1                           Monday, 29 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Praljak and Pusic not present]

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic

12     et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             First of all, I would like to apologise for having made everyone

15     wait, but we had technical problems.  Therefore, we are starting with

16     approximately a 15-minute delay.

17             I would like to, first of all, greet Mr. Zvonko Vidovic, who will

18     take the affirmation in a few minutes.  I would like to greet

19     Mr. Petkovic, Mr. Pusic, Mr. Stojic, Mr. Prlic, and Mr. Coric.  I would

20     like to greet Ms. West, Mr. Scott, as well as their associates, Defence

21     counsel, and all the people assisting us.

22             Before I ask Mr. Vidovic to read the solemn declaration, I will

23     give the floor to the Registrar, who has two IC numbers to give us.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             3D has submitted its response to the Prosecution's objections to

Page 51436

 1     its documents tendered via Witness Milivoj Petkovic.  This list shall be

 2     given Exhibit IC01227.  And 5D has also submitted its list of documents

 3     tendered through Witness Pero Nikolic.  This list shall be given

 4     Exhibit IC01228.

 5             Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

 7             Witness, are you able to give me your first name, last name, and

 8     date of birth, please?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Vidovic.  The 1st of

10     October, 1963, in Mostar.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

12     occupation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm the director of a private

14     enterprise, a catering enterprise in Mostar.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you give us your first name

16     again, please?  It's not on the record.

17             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

19     before a court of law on those events that unfolded in the former

20     Yugoslavia or are you testifying for the first time today?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified in the County Court in

22     Mostar.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was it a case related to the

24     events that occurred in the former Yugoslavia or was this for another

25     reason?

Page 51437

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the trial against

 2     Dzidic et al, having to do with the war in Mostar.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

 4     declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  ZVONKO VIDOVIC

 8                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So you may sit

10     down.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just some information by way of

13     explanation.

14             You will be testifying today, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

15     This is what has been scheduled.  We are sitting this afternoon.

16     Tomorrow morning, we will be sitting in the morning.  On Wednesday, we

17     will be sitting in the morning also.  And on Thursday, we will be sitting

18     in the afternoon.  That said, on Thursday afternoon we shall finish at

19     6.00 p.m.

20             You have just taken the affirmation, which means now that you are

21     a witness of the Court, which means that you may not have any contact

22     whatsoever with Mr. Coric's Defence team.  In addition, you should not

23     discuss with anyone the contents of your testimony, and you must not

24     discuss this with the media either.

25             Please try and be accurate when you answer the questions that are

Page 51438

 1     put to you.  You will have to answer questions which Mr. Coric's Defence

 2     counsel will put to you.  She will show you a series of documents.  The

 3     other Defence counsel will intervene when the time comes to defend the

 4     other accused.  I believe the Prosecutor - this will be Ms. West - will

 5     then cross-examine you.  The three Judges sitting before you will also

 6     put questions to you.  Normally speaking, we are four, but Judge Mindua

 7     is not here with us today because he is sitting in the Tolimir trial.

 8     Sometimes some of the Judges attend two cases on the same day.  That will

 9     be my case tomorrow.

10             If there is something which you do not understand, please don't

11     hesitate to ask the person who has put the question to you to rephrase

12     it, even if it is a Judge.

13             This is what I wish to share with you to make sure that this

14     hearing unfolds smoothly.

15             I would like to greet Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic once more and give

16     her the floor.

17             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

18     Your Honours, and everybody else in the courtroom.

19                           Examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, too, Mr. Vidovic.  I'm

21     going to start off by asking you to speak up a little louder than when

22     you answered the first few questions so that the interpreters can hear

23     you.  And the second thing I'm going to ask you is to speak slowly and

24     make pauses between my questions and your answers.  That is to help the

25     interpreters, because all these proceedings are being interpreted into

Page 51439

 1     two languages.

 2             I'm going to read out a short biography, your CV, with respect to

 3     your activities in the HVO.  And when I've read it all out, I'm going to

 4     ask you whether what I've read out is correct.

 5             In 1992, you were a student at the Faculty of Law in Sarajevo,

 6     and you lived and worked in Mostar at the same time as a private

 7     entrepreneur in the catering business.

 8             At the beginning of the war, you became a member of the

 9     3rd Battalion of the HVO of Mostar.  You were wounded in July 1992, and

10     until October 1992, you were undergoing treatment.  In October 1992, you

11     became an operative in the Crime Prevention Department of the Mostar

12     Police, and you remained in that post until the summer of 1993, when you

13     became the head of the Crime Department in the 5th Battalion of the

14     Military Police of Mostar.  While you headed that department, you

15     underwent professional training at the Faculty of Crime Sciences in

16     Zagreb.

17             At the beginning of November, 1993, you became the acting head of

18     department, of the Crime Military Police Department, in the Military

19     Police Administration.  And in mid-December 1993, you left the military

20     police and continued working in the catering business.

21             Is everything I have read out correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   My questions, Mr. Vidovic, will focus, for the most part, on your

24     activity in the Crime Department in the Mostar section in 1993.

25             To start off with, tell us how the Crime Prevention Department of

Page 51440

 1     the Military Police was organised in 1993.

 2        A.   In 1993, the Military Police Crime Department, which is the

 3     department I worked in, was within the composition of the 3rd Battalion

 4     of the Military Police in Mostar, and later on, after July, the

 5     5th Battalion of the Military Police in Mostar.  The military police

 6     otherwise had five military police battalions.  So in addition to the

 7     1st, the other four had crime departments within them, under them.

 8        Q.   Tell us, please, these military police battalions, including your

 9     department, did they cover an operative zone?

10        A.   My job in the 3rd Battalion, and later on the 5th Military Police

11     Battalion, was in the South-East Herzegovina Operative Zone.

12        Q.   Very well, thank you.  Now, tell us, please -- from your CV, we

13     were able to see that you were first an operative in the

14     Crime Department.  Can you tell us what that means?  What does an

15     operative do?

16        A.   As an operative in the Crime Department of the Military Police,

17     headquartered in Mostar, where I worked, my exclusive job was to uncover

18     crime in the area covered by the Crime Department that I worked for.

19        Q.   We saw that you were head of department for a time, or sector, in

20     the Central Mostar area.  So tell us what the head of the sector does.

21     What's his job?

22        A.   The head of sector does similar or almost identical work like the

23     Crime Department operative, but with the added responsibility of

24     conducting analyses and following the work of the entire department,

25     which is made up of a number of operatives, until a criminal report is

Page 51441

 1     filed.

 2        Q.   For a short time, you were the acting head of the

 3     Crime Department in the Military Police Administration.  So what does the

 4     head of this department do?

 5        A.   The head of the Crime Department of the Military Police

 6     Administration is the man co-ordinating all the crime departments and

 7     involves analytical work.  It is a post which dovetails and co-ordinates

 8     all the work and analyses the work of all the departments in the various

 9     battalions.

10        Q.   Tell us, please, the head of the Crime Department, does he give

11     you any guide-lines or professional advice and things like that?

12        A.   As far as guide-lines and instructions, while I was working in

13     the Mostar department we did receive those from the head of the

14     Crime Department of the Military Police Administration.  He would give us

15     all the professional assistance we needed, ranging from what the various

16     forms and documents looked like and anything else that we needed and that

17     was involved in our work.

18        Q.   While you were an operative in the Crime Department of Mostar,

19     who was your immediate superior?

20        A.   While I was working as an operative in the Central Mostar

21     Crime Department, my immediate superior was Josip Marcinko, and he was

22     the head of the Crime Department of Mostar.

23        Q.   And who was the immediate superior to this gentleman,

24     Mr. Marcinko; who was his superior?

25        A.   His immediate superior was the battalion commander to which we

Page 51442

 1     belonged.  And as I said a moment ago, I belonged, first of all, to the

 2     3rd Battalion and then the 5th Battalion of the Military Police of

 3     Mostar.

 4        Q.   What was the commander's name?  The commander of the

 5     3rd Battalion, what was his name?

 6        A.   The commander of the 3rd Military Police Battalion in Mostar --

 7     well, we had a situation in which until sometime in mid-April, the

 8     commander was Zeljko Dzidic, but after that he was replaced and

 9     Zarko Juric came to replace him.  Later on, instead of Zarko Juric, it

10     was Ivan Ancic, when the 3rd Battalion became the 5th Battalion under the

11     reorganisation system.

12        Q.   Do you know which post Zeljko Dzidic occupied after he ceased to

13     be the 3rd Battalion commander, as you said, in mid-April sometime?  Do

14     you know where he went afterwards, that is to say, from mid-April

15     onwards?

16        A.   I don't know that.  All I do know is that from mid-April he was

17     suspended because of some problems he had with some soldiers from

18     Siroki Brijeg.

19        Q.   Tell me, please, Mr. Vidovic, do you know who was the superior to

20     the commander of the 5th Battalion or 3rd Battalion?  Who did he receive

21     his orders from for daily tasks and assignments to be undertaken by the

22     5th Battalion?

23        A.   All the orders and assignments given to the 3rd Military Police

24     Battalion, which was later the 5th Military Police Battalion, all the

25     orders were received from the Operative Zone of South-East Herzegovina.

Page 51443

 1        Q.   Tell me, please, who did you receive daily orders from?

 2        A.   Well, we had a system of daily briefings in the military police

 3     or the command of the -- or, rather, at the headquarters of the Military

 4     Police Battalion, and our head of department would attend those

 5     briefings.  And then we would receive the daily orders that you're

 6     referring to.

 7        Q.   How do you know that the 5th Battalion received orders from the

 8     South-East Herzegovina Operative Zone?

 9        A.   After I was given the duty of being at the head of the Military

10     Police Crime Department for Mostar, I attended those daily briefings, and

11     we would all together be given assignments, our daily assignments from

12     the sphere of the Crime Police Department's remit.

13        Q.   I asked you how do you know.  Did you hear that at the briefings?

14     Was it at the briefings?

15        A.   Yes.  We would be given guide-lines at the briefings of the

16     operative zone, assignments as to what the Crime Police Department was

17     supposed to do.

18        Q.   Can you explain what those orders were?  What did they involve,

19     what did they look like?  Did you go about your regular duties without

20     those orders as well during your daily work?  So how was that different

21     to the orders you received?

22        A.   Well, as far as those orders are concerned, yes, we did have our

23     daily responsibilities and duties as a department.  But then you also had

24     orders which frequently involved us, as a department, for extraordinary

25     situations and extraordinary tasks and assignments, because the

Page 51444

 1     commanders of the units who had problems with their soldiers would,

 2     through the operative zone, hand down to us certain matters that we were

 3     supposed to deal with within the crime department that we belonged to.

 4        Q.   Did you ever get an order to go to the front-line?

 5        A.   Yes.  At a certain point in time when the security situation in

 6     Mostar was complex - I believe it was in July 1993 - we'd received an

 7     order for our department to provide a certain number of staff who would

 8     go to the first line in Mostar on the Bulevar.  We went to the so-called

 9     Suma building, where we provided additional manpower to those on the

10     line.

11        Q.   From whom did you receive that order?

12        A.   We received it from the Zone of Operations of South-East

13     Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Vidovic -- just a minute.  Let me see where we

15     stand.  To who did you report?

16        A.   The system of work of our service was based on the practice that

17     at the end of working hours - we worked from 8.00 until 4.00 p.m., but

18     sometimes we stayed on until 9.00 p.m. - we submitted reports to the head

19     of our centre, and then we would -- and all these reports of ours would

20     be sent down.  I'm saying "down" because we're one floor up.  And these

21     would then go to the operative zone.  These would be reports about

22     everything we had done on that day.

23        Q.   Do you know whether the battalion sent its reports to the

24     Military Police Administration too?

25        A.   The Military Police Battalion sent its reports to the Military

Page 51445

 1     Police Administration, and later on they were also sent to the command of

 2     the defence of the city of Mostar.

 3        Q.   How do you know that the battalion forwarded your reports to the

 4     zone of operations?

 5        A.   I know because I would find out in my subsequent work.  I would

 6     learn that the reports were, indeed, forwarded because I could see that

 7     link in the individual criminal cases.

 8        Q.   How did you see that link?  Did anyone contact you?  Please

 9     explain for everybody to understand.  What kind of link was it?

10        A.   As we worked with military personnel, we had constant contact

11     with the commanders of the units, and that can be seen in our reports,

12     where all this information flowed together and resulted in criminal

13     reports.  If a certain soldier from a unit was dealt with in a report,

14     for example, it became clear.

15        Q.   My questions so far have been about the organisation of work and

16     the mechanism of commanding in your sector.  Do you know anything about

17     the organisation of the military police in general, the system of command

18     and control, et cetera?

19        A.   I didn't really study the structure of the military police on the

20     whole.  I knew the structure of the department to which I belonged, and I

21     stuck to the hierarchy in place; that is, the structure of the battalion

22     of which I was part.

23        Q.   Does that mean that you have no knowledge about what I had asked

24     you about?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 51446

 1        Q.   Please take a look at the second document in your binder.  You

 2     have two red binders, numbered binders.  Take binder number 1, please.

 3     The second document is P00588.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell me what the

 5     meaning of the Post-Its is?  On some documents, you've written down some

 6     figures with exhibit numbers, and on the other documents there's nothing

 7     at all, or on the other Post-Its there's nothing at all.  What does this

 8     mean?

 9             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all

10     documents are marked, only some documents are very large, especially the

11     first one, so possibly that made you think that it isn't marked, that it

12     has no label.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You haven't answered my

14     question.  I would like to know whether all the documents have already

15     been admitted.  If, on the other hand, some have not been admitted, I

16     would like you to flag these up for me.

17             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will

18     mention every time which document has the status of exhibit, although the

19     lower -- rather, the left corner of the document indicates its status.

20     However, only the original documents have this mark of "EXH."  There was

21     a chart included, though, which also indicates the status of the

22     document.  But whenever I call up an individual document, I will mention

23     its status.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm asking you this question

25     because, as you know, sometimes the Trial Chamber dismisses some

Page 51447

 1     documents because they are not relevant.  I feel that a counsel that has

 2     been working on this case for four years, if the counsel is presenting

 3     this document, that means that this document is relevant.  I shall pay

 4     particular attention to the documents that might not be relevant to check

 5     whether there is a relevant association.  If I don't say anything, that

 6     means I feel that it is relevant.

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Sir, you told us a minute ago that it was your job to uncover

 9     crimes, or, rather, the perpetrators.  And now take a look at document

10     P00588, which is the Decree on the Armed Forces of the Croatian Community

11     of Herceg-Bosna, and Article 137 is of interest to us here.  In the

12     English version, that's on page 0030-0164.  This document has the status

13     of exhibit already.  In the Croatian version, that's on the page marked

14     "0026-7327."

15             Mr. Vidovic, please focus on me.  You don't have to search.

16     We'll take a look at the last paragraph of this article, which reads:

17             "The armed forces include military police who take charge of

18     security in military traffic, of military order and discipline, and the

19     elimination of criminal elements in the armed forces."

20             I suppose that this should have included criminal offences.  Was

21     it, indeed, your job to deal with criminal offences?  I'm referring to

22     the Crime Department of the Military Police.

23        A.   It was the job of the Crime Department to uncover criminal

24     offences in the armed forces, but I must add something very important.

25     For the Crime Department of the Military Police to uncover a criminal

Page 51448

 1     offence, we must first receive information about it.  And pursuant to

 2     that information, we could start working and file a criminal report.

 3        Q.   All right.  In your work as an operative of the Crime Department,

 4     which laws and regulations did you abide by?

 5        A.   The regulations that we abided by in our work, as operatives of

 6     the military police, were the following:  The Law on Criminal Procedure

 7     and the Decree on District Military Courts.

 8        Q.   Tell us, did you need the entire Law on Criminal Procedure for

 9     your work or did only a part of that law pertain to your work?

10        A.   In our work, we only relied on the pre-criminal procedure.  That

11     is the part that we needed in our work.

12        Q.   Did you also use or abide by some material regulations that

13     qualified criminal offences?

14        A.   We relied on the Penal Code of the former SFRY and the Penal Code

15     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16        Q.   All right.  Why did you rely on both these pieces of legislation?

17        A.   For the simple reason that the Penal Code of the former SFRY

18     dealt with more severe crimes, such as war crimes or crimes involving

19     narcotics and the like, whereas the Penal Code of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20     dealt with all other criminal offences.

21        Q.   Tell me, sir -- you told us that you relied on the Law on

22     Criminal Procedure and the Decree on District Military Courts.  Please

23     take a look at the first document in your binder now, which is 4D01105.

24     In the English version, this is on page 42, and we were looking at

25     Article 151.  This is the Law on Criminal Procedure which is an exhibit

Page 51449

 1     in this trial.  Let us take a look at paragraph 1 of Article 151.  I'll

 2     read it out slowly:

 3             "If there are grounds to suspect that a criminal act that is

 4     prosecuted ex officio has been committed, the law enforcement agencies

 5     must take the steps necessary to locate the perpetrator of the criminal

 6     act, to prevent the perpetrator or accomplice from hiding or fleeing, to

 7     direct and preserve the traces of the criminal act and objects which

 8     might serve as evidence, and to gather all information which might be of

 9     use to effectively conduct criminal proceedings."

10             Tell us, Mr. Vidovic, did you apply this provision in your work?

11     Was this provision pertinent for your activity?

12        A.   As we were in war or in a state of immediate threat of war, we

13     applied a provision of the Decree on District Military Courts, whereas

14     this provision you've just read out was implemented by the MUP.

15        Q.   Now, please take a look at the third document in your binder,

16     which is P00592.  This is the Decree on District Military Courts.  It is

17     also an exhibit already.  Please take a look at Article 6 which reads:

18             "District military courts shall try criminal acts committed by

19     military personnel and certain criminal acts committed by other persons

20     as determined in this decree."

21             Are you familiar with this provision, sir?

22        A.   Yes.  That's the very provision I was referring to a minute ago.

23        Q.   To which persons does the Decree on District Military Courts

24     pertain?

25        A.   To military personnel, that is, soldiers of the HVO, of which I

Page 51450

 1     was one.

 2        Q.   Now, please take a look at Article 25 of this same decree.  In

 3     the second paragraph of Article 25, we read:

 4             "District military courts shall perform the duties and exercise

 5     the authority as stated in the Law on Criminal Proceedings, of regular

 6     courts of the first instance."

 7             Could you tell us, please, who the authorised persons of the

 8     organs of security of the armed forces were?

 9        A.   If we take a brigade to represent the armed forces, the

10     authorised person within the -- a brigade would have been the SIS of that

11     brigade.

12        Q.   Please take a look at Article 27 now.  Before I read it out, let

13     me remind you that a short while ago we were looking at Article 151 of

14     the Law on Criminal Procedure, and you said that it applied to civilians

15     rather than military personnel and that the military police was --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [No interpretation]

17             [Interpretation] I'm going to ask my question again.  Every time

18     I have an important question to ask, it never works.  That's very

19     strange.

20             In any case, I'm still on Article 6.  And I'm speaking to someone

21     with a legal background, so I'm sure you will understand my question.

22     This Article 6 is talking about military district courts.  According to

23     the text, those district courts are competent for military staff, and

24     they will also try for criminal acts committed by other persons as

25     determined in this decree.  So I will choose a very simple case, and

Page 51451

 1     perhaps you can tell me who or which court would try in this case.

 2             Let's assume that we have a group of individuals wearing military

 3     uniforms, but we do not know to which unit they belong.  This group of

 4     individuals will commit a certain number of crimes, and to be more

 5     precise, they will commit some rape.  According to you, who would be in

 6     charge of the investigation of the inquiry as well as of sentencing of

 7     those individuals?

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise,

 9     but the witness has just received the wrong interpretation in his head

10     sets.  He heard "if persons are military persons."  All -- your question

11     stated "wearing military uniforms," and I think that was the essential

12     point of your question and it was interpreted wrongly.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm asking the

14     interpreters to be very careful when translating my questions, which are

15     always very important.  And they are of a legal nature, so if there is

16     the wrong interpretation, then, of course, we could come up with serious

17     issues.

18             So I would like to point out, Witness, that this group of

19     individuals wear military uniforms, but we do not know if they belong to

20     a military unit.  So what I would like to know is whether they fall under

21     Article 6 of this document.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll give this answer to your

23     question.  It will be a little longer answer.

24             While I was in the Military Police Crime Department in Mostar,

25     the concept of individuals wearing uniforms is very broad.  So a person

Page 51452

 1     wearing a uniform does not necessarily mean that they belong to a unit

 2     and that they have a valid ID stating which unit that person belongs to.

 3     Now, if it has been established that the person does, indeed, belong to a

 4     unit, then, as a member of that unit, a criminal report is filed to the

 5     competent Military Prosecutor's Office.  If he is a civilian wearing a

 6     uniform and has committed a crime which comes under the remit of the

 7     corresponding military district court, then it is that court which is in

 8     charge of conducting proceedings, if the crime is a serious crime like

 9     the one that you mentioned.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

11             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, I don't know whether the interpretation was correct.

13     You said:  "If, as a civilian, he committed a crime from the remit of the

14     court."  Did you mean the acts listed under Article 7 of that same

15     decree?

16        A.   Yes, precisely those acts.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's look at Article 27 of this decree.  And

18     I'd like to remind you that when looking at the Law on Criminal

19     Procedure, Article 151 there, well, I'd like to remind you that we've

20     already seen that article and you said that this was applied to civilians

21     and that it was linked to the provision with respect to military persons,

22     and that in that case you applied Article 27, if it's applied to military

23     persons.

24             Now, we saw that the organ of internal affairs was duty-bound to

25     apprehend the perpetrator, secure the traces, and so on.

Page 51453

 1             Now let's look at what Article 27 has to say, and I'm reading

 2     para 1:

 3             "The commander of a military unit and of a military institution

 4     must take all necessary measures to prevent the perpetrator of a crime

 5     under official prosecution from hiding or escaping, and must attempt to

 6     preserve all the traces of the criminal act and all objects that may

 7     serve as evidence.  He must also obtain all information relevant to the

 8     criminal proceedings."

 9             Tell me now, please, when you said earlier on that you didn't

10     apply Article 151 and the Decree on Military District Courts, did you

11     have in mind this particular article?

12        A.   I had Article 27 in mind of the Decree on Military District

13     Courts, where it is specifically stated that it is the commander of a

14     military unit who is duty-bound to take steps against a perpetrator,

15     which means that every commander of a military unit, from a platoon

16     upwards, is duty-bound to take all the necessary steps if one of his

17     soldiers commits a crime.

18        Q.   When you mean "all necessary measures," you mean the measures set

19     out in this article; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, precisely.

21        Q.   Now, Article 151 that we looked at earlier on --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.  I would like to

23     go back to Article 27.  The second paragraph, I believe, is important,

24     Witness.

25             When I look at this paragraph, it seems that the commander of a

Page 51454

 1     military unit, let's say the brigade commander, when he hears of a crime,

 2     he has to inform the district military prosecutor.  Is that correct?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I'm asking you this

 5     question, sir, because unfortunately General Praljak is not here.

 6     General Praljak is boycotting this trial at the moment.  But had he been

 7     here, I would have asked the same question to you, but I'm sure his

 8     counsel will put the question to him as well.

 9             General Praljak, when he testified, he was in your seat, and I

10     put to him that as a commander of the HVO, when a military commander gets

11     to know of a crime, I was wondering what he should do.  And I went into

12     details by asking him whether he was not duty-bound to inform the

13     prosecutor, and he had answered the following.  I do not have the

14     transcript, but I can recollect what he said.  He said that, As long as

15     the SIS or the military police is informed, then my role will stop there.

16     So what do you think?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'll give a very

18     categoric answer and say that the consistent application of Article 27,

19     that is to say, that the commander of a military unit -- every commander

20     of a military unit is obliged to take steps when he learns of a crime,

21     and he is obliged to act according to Article 27, as is set out here.

22     Now, if we're dealing with combat units or the front-line, then he would

23     have to act in the same way as if it was a soldier of his who might have

24     been somewhere outside the combat zone.  That is to say that upon

25     learning of a crime, he must secure the site, using two of his soldiers,

Page 51455

 1     and undertake all the other necessary steps which come under his

 2     authority, to secure the traces, prevent them being destroyed and so on.

 3     If the perpetrator was known to him, then he could file a criminal report

 4     straight away with the competent military prosecutor's office.  If the

 5     perpetrator or perpetrators were unknown, then he could have informed us

 6     in the Crime Department so that we could then take the necessary steps to

 7     apprehend the perpetrators, because there are a lot of professional

 8     work -- there's a lot of professional work involved.  But it was up to

 9     the commander of a military unit to secure the site where the crime had

10     taken place and to take all the other necessary steps under Article 27.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you clarified the

12     situation.  I would like to thank you.

13             You have just said, and it's important, if the unit commander

14     does not know the identity of the perpetrators, and that was one of the

15     cases put forward by General Praljak, and you just said it, in that case

16     he has to inform the Crime Department and he has to inform the military

17     police.  Very well.  But in case you do not do anything, let's assume

18     that you are not taking any steps, what should the military unit

19     commander do in that case?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hypothetically speaking and

21     hypothetically looking at this situation, then what we would do was to

22     file a criminal report against perpetrators unknown, as far as we are

23     concerned, if we'd been informed of a crime having taken place.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where would you file this

25     report, before which structure?

Page 51456

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the District Military

 2     Prosecutor's Office.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My apologies for

 4     asking basic questions to you, but the answers have to be in the

 5     transcript.  Thank you.

 6             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one detail that I'd

 7     like to focus on.

 8             You quoted my client's position correctly, and the witness has

 9     answered with the explanation given, but I'd just like to remind you that

10     those questions were asked of my client earlier on precisely with respect

11     to Article 27, and he was -- the article is lex specialis, regulating a

12     special situation; that is to say, when the perpetrator's caught

13     red-handed, in flagrante, so when the perpetrator is known.  The moment a

14     crime took place, somebody knew that the crime had taken place and knew

15     who the perpetrator was, that's one procedure, and the witness said that.

16     The situation is different if the perpetrators are unknown.  Then it's

17     not this article that applies, but other principles.  So here we know

18     that a crime has -- or, rather, when we know that a crime has been

19     committed, but not the perpetrators, then the other organs come into

20     play.  So as you are dealing with the crux of the matter, bear in mind

21     that Article 27 is lex specialis.

22             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have

23     nothing against Mr. Kovacic giving us legal expertise, but I think that

24     the witness is here to answer that and not to have Defence counsel

25     interpret what something means, particularly not at this stage of the

Page 51457

 1     proceedings.

 2        Q.   But, anyway, Witness, I'm going to ask you again.  You said --

 3     you uttered a sentence a moment ago to this effect:  You said that if a

 4     commander does not know who the perpetrator is, then he will call upon

 5     you.  Tell me now, if he does not know who the perpetrator is, does he

 6     still have to undertake steps under Article 27, if the perpetrator is

 7     unknown, that is to say, to secure the site of the crime and so on?

 8        A.   Yes.  As soon as he learns of a crime being committed, regardless

 9     of the perpetrators are known or unknown, it is his duty to apply

10     Article 27 and act upon it, that is to say, to use his soldiers to secure

11     the crime scene, to try and secure all the traces and any objects that

12     might be used in evidence, and carry out all the other steps which,

13     conditionally speaking, would help us in our job later on.

14        Q.   Tell us now, in what way does he inform you -- does the commander

15     inform you of a crime and that he needs your assistance?  How would he do

16     that, regardless of whether it's a crime for which he does not have the

17     professional capacity to deal with it or that they need to uncover the

18     perpetrator?  Anyway, what is the manner in which he informs you?  How

19     does he do that, how does he inform you of a crime?

20        A.   All information about a crime is received by us from the

21     commander and from the military police battalion to which I belonged with

22     my crime department, and the battalion received it from the operative

23     zone that we were located in.

24        Q.   Tell us, please, according to Article 27, was the commander

25     authorised to apprehend and arrest an individual that he considered was

Page 51458

 1     the perpetrator of a crime?

 2        A.   He certainly did have the authority to arrest an individual

 3     immediately if that individual had committed a crime.

 4        Q.   Now, would you look at paragraph 4 of that same article,

 5     Article 27, which reads as follows:

 6             "The military commander, as company commander, whose status is

 7     equal to or higher than that of a commander of the company or an

 8     authorised official person working for the internal affairs and the

 9     security organs of the military police, may arrest a member of the

10     military in cases which have been determined by the Law on Criminal

11     Proceedings on detention."

12             Tell us, please, do you know whether this was the way things

13     worked?

14        A.   Well, this military commander occupying the post stipulated under

15     Article 27 could arrest a suspect, just as a policeman from the Ministry

16     of the Interior could do, and just as an operative from SIS could do, and

17     just as a military policeman could do.

18        Q.   We have just seen that you could have been informed about the

19     commitment of a crime by the commander, and you said that such

20     information is required for you to be able to work.  But what were the

21     other ways for you to receive information about crimes committed?  What

22     was it like in practice?

23        A.   We got information from citizens directly.  They came to our

24     department in Mostar frequently and reported various crimes to us, which

25     shows that they trusted us.  And we were informed by the police station

Page 51459

 1     or the Police Administration of Mostar; in other words, the MUP.  We were

 2     also informed by the permanent patrols of our battalion of the military

 3     police which patrolled Mostar day and night, and also from the commanders

 4     just mentioned, so we had various sources of various types of information

 5     about crimes committed.

 6        Q.   When you learned of the commitment of a serious crime, what did

 7     you have to do?  Let's take murder as an example.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.  Before we get

 9     to this question, which is very interesting, I'm still on paragraph 4 of

10     Article 27.  I'm going to use a case.  I like cases or examples, because

11     through examples we can actually clarify some issues.

12             Let's take a hypothetical example.  Let's assume that a brigade

13     commander learns that one of his men is going betray the unit by

14     deserting, and this could be a potential threat for the entire unit

15     because the brigade commander has enough reasons to think that this

16     soldier has joined enemy ranks.  According to you, do you think that the

17     unit commander can arrest this soldier and disarm this very soldier?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he can arrest and disarm him.

19     As brigade commander, he has an assistant for the SIS and there is also

20     military police in the brigade.  The example you mentioned has

21     repercussions on security.  So the commander would contact his assistant

22     for SIS to conduct preliminary activities before arresting the soldier,

23     if indeed the soldier is planning on deserting.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Article 27 states

25     that in this case, the suspect has to be led within 12 hours -- or be

Page 51460

 1     taken within 12 hours before an investigating judge of the District

 2     Military Court.  Would this mean that a suspect arrested by the unit

 3     commander, or by someone from the SIS, or by someone from the military

 4     police, does that mean that the suspect has to be taken before an

 5     investigating judge of the District Military Court?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had a dead-line of 12 hours to

 7     inform the investigating military judge on the reasons for detention.

 8     The investigating military judge gave us permission, by an order of his,

 9     for an additional 72 hours in case, and that's it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Last question, and

11     please listen carefully.  Let's have a case where we have arrested

12     someone who was about to betray a unit, but this person is not brought

13     before an investigating judge within 12 hours.  According to you, in

14     which situation do we find ourselves?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer this question.  I

16     believe I would have to speculate.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Tell us, Mr. Vidovic, now that the Judge asked you about these

20     12 hours and 72 hours, this applies to police detention while you are

21     conducting investigative measures; right?

22        A.   Yes, that is when we conduct investigative measures in relation

23     to the suspect.

24        Q.   In that period of time, if you conclude that you have no proof

25     that that person is, indeed, the perpetrator, or if the time-period

Page 51461

 1     elapses without you establishing that he's a perpetrator, do you have to

 2     release him?

 3        A.   Yes, that person is no longer interesting to us from the aspect

 4     of the Crime Department of the Military Police.

 5        Q.   We were now speaking about police detention.  Can the

 6     investigating judge order a certain person to be detained?  I'm now

 7     speaking about placing someone in remand prison.

 8        A.   Yes, the investigating judge can do that.

 9        Q.   Even after the 72 hours have elapsed?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you remember what the longest time-period was, under the

12     Law on Criminal Procedure, for somebody to remain in remand in accordance

13     with the -- or pursuant to an order of the investigating judge?

14        A.   I don't want to speculate.  I don't know.

15        Q.   I asked you a question, but you had no time to answer, so I'll go

16     back to it now.  If you should have found out that a serious crime has

17     been committed, such as murder, what would you be duty-bound to do?  Did

18     you have to inform anyone?

19        A.   After receiving information about the crime of murder, we had to

20     inform the district military prosecutor immediately.

21        Q.   In such cases, does the investigating judge participate?  And if

22     so, how?

23        A.   The investigating military judge takes part in the on-site

24     investigation.

25        Q.   Now we have heard what you were informed about and what you did

Page 51462

 1     in case of a serious crime.  So once you have information, what do you do

 2     next?

 3        A.   The Crime Department of the Military Police then takes all

 4     necessary measures from our jurisdiction in order to carry out all

 5     preparations that come before a criminal report.

 6        Q.   Can you be more specific or give us some examples of something

 7     that you did?

 8        A.   So we collect all objects that can be used as evidence, the

 9     traces of the commitment of the crime.  We conduct interviews and make

10     official notes about them.  We all take statements from persons

11     interviewed or persons who could provide useful information.  And then we

12     use all that material for the drafting of a criminal report.

13        Q.   Once a criminal report is drafted, to who do you submit it?

14        A.   When a criminal report has been drafted, a person from our

15     department, who was in charge of drafting criminal reports, submits them

16     to the District Military Prosecutor's Office in Mostar.

17        Q.   Once you submit that criminal report, you have found the

18     perpetrator and submitted the report to the Military Prosecutor's Office,

19     do you still have any obligations with regard to that case or is that

20     case completed from your point of view?

21        A.   By submitting the criminal report to the Prosecutor's Office, our

22     job is done.  But it happened very often that while working on another

23     case, we learn of some facts relevant for the other case, and we

24     submit -- we inform the Prosecutor's Office of that, too, as an addendum

25     to that previous criminal report.

Page 51463

 1        Q.   Can the public prosecutor request additional information from you

 2     or ask you to conduct certain activities subsequently?

 3        A.   It happened very often that the public prosecutor requested some

 4     additional activity from us, and we would certainly respond to those

 5     requests whenever we could.

 6        Q.   Could the prosecutor request such information from other persons

 7     as well, other services?

 8        A.   Since our service was poorly equipped, from the point of view of

 9     technology, the prosecutor may have requested forensic assistance from

10     the MUP or assistance from military commanders to collect information

11     about the person in question, if that person was a member of a certain

12     military unit.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you a question

14     which may prove useful once we deliberate.

15             You just said someone prepares the report which is to be

16     forwarded to the military prosecutor, and then that's where your work

17     ends, unless additional information is provided, which you will then

18     forward to the military prosecutor.  Fine.  What I would like to know is

19     this:  Please listen carefully.  When the report is drafted for it to be

20     sent on to the military prosecutor, do you always ask for permission from

21     the military unit commander whom the soldiers belong to or don't you ask

22     him anything whatsoever; you simply forward the report to the military

23     prosecutor?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly,

25     Your Honour, you mean that I seek permission to submit a criminal report

Page 51464

 1     to the Prosecutor's Office.  If so, the answer is, no, I never did that.

 2     We were autonomous in all matters with regard to the -- to criminal

 3     reports.  We were a sort of service of the public -- of the Military

 4     Prosecutor's Office and all our criminal reports went to them.  We never

 5     applied to any military commander to allow us to submit our criminal

 6     reports to the military prosecutor.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you.

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   When you collected information and established the identity of

10     the perpetrator of a crime, you know that the perpetrator is a soldier

11     and member of a certain unit, were you duty-bound to inform his

12     commander?

13        A.   The daily reports that we drafted in our department at the end of

14     working hours, if they included the information that a criminal report

15     was filed against a soldier, it would be forwarded through the battalion

16     of the military police up to the zone of operations, and we would inform

17     the military commander of the fact that a criminal report was submitted.

18        Q.   You mean the military commander of the unit whose member the

19     perpetrator was?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Once you complete that stage of the investigation, you do

22     everything necessary, but the identity of the perpetrator remains

23     unknown.  What did you do in such cases?

24        A.   Unknown perpetrators, or "NN" as they were designated, would not

25     be -- such cases would not be closed.  We would never close NN cases.  We

Page 51465

 1     would always strive to find information that could lead us to the

 2     perpetrator.  After several months of work, doing something else

 3     altogether, we would often stumble upon information that we needed in the

 4     other case, and then we would file a criminal report.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have fully understood which

 6     procedures apply to NN, non-identified perpetrators, and you've described

 7     to us in detail what happens when the perpetrator is identified.  I shall

 8     now put to you a question.  It is a shame that General Praljak is not

 9     here today.  I hope that he will come back again soon.

10             General Praljak had told us this:  Listen carefully.  He told us

11     that, As a military commander, I hold a defence line facing the enemy.

12     If I hear that among the soldiers on this defence line there are some

13     that have committed offences, I shall not arrest them straight away,

14     because if I arrest them, I will then weaken my defence line and the

15     enemy can make a breakthrough in that case, which can prove disastrous

16     for my defence.  Therefore, I keep the soldiers in the unit, even though

17     they have committed offences.

18             I'm summing up what he has told us.  What do you think of this?

19     What do you think of this view, which has been given to us by the

20     number-one man in the HVO at the time he was in this position?  He told

21     us that as far as he was concerned, there was no question of arresting

22     the soldiers who had committed offences, in light of the fact that this

23     would pose a threat on the defence line.  What do you think of this

24     theory?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to speculate at a

Page 51466

 1     theoretical level.  I'll just repeat what I said a short while ago.

 2             Working for the Department of the Military Police and strictly

 3     abiding by all the regulations, our task was to combat crime and find

 4     perpetrators of crime.  That's all I can say to what you have just

 5     outlined.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'd just like us to clarify something.  Tell me, please, did you

 9     file criminal reports about perpetrators unknown, NN?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do I understand you correctly?  You file a criminal report

12     against perpetrators unknown, and then you continue to investigate and do

13     your job.  And if you uncover who the perpetrator was, then you make an

14     addition to the criminal report and add the person's name and surname and

15     so on?

16        A.   Yes.  We always kept the investigation alive and the case alive

17     until the perpetrators were uncovered.  We would just add on and

18     supplement the criminal reports filed.  The first criminal report filed

19     when we learned about a crime and sent to the military prosecutor, and

20     then we would update it with new information.

21        Q.   Now I would like us to look at a separate set of documents which

22     relate to uncovering -- well, the accused have drawn my attention to the

23     time and that it might be a good idea to take the break.  We did start

24     later, but we're getting signals from that part of the courtroom.  So

25     before I move on, perhaps this would be a good moment.

Page 51467

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, understandably so.  These

 2     hearings are very long.  We shall have a break, a 20-minute break now.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

 6             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Before we look at the documents, tell us what the conditions were

 8     in 1993 in Mostar, and how did they affect your work?  What was the

 9     situation like in the town of Mostar, and did it have any effect on your

10     work?

11        A.   Could you repeat the year?

12        Q.   1993.

13        A.   In 1993, Mostar was a war zone.  After the fighting stopped, the

14     fighting that took place in the summer of 1992, there was a sort of

15     interim situation which was neither war nor peace, and we tried to get

16     back to normal, get life back to normal, at the beginning of 1993.  And

17     then in May 1993, in Mostar, the situation escalated and there was an

18     armed conflict between the BH Army and the HVO, which made it a war zone

19     again.

20             There were a large number of refugees which had already come into

21     Mostar in 1992, after the Serb aggression against parts of Eastern

22     Herzegovina, and all this led to a situation in which we had a large

23     number of refugees, and they were put up in collective shelters and

24     accommodation, like the student hostels that used to exist before the

25     war.  And there were large stores selling white goods and the like, and

Page 51468

 1     they were transformed into places where the refugees could be put up.

 2        Q.   Can I interrupt you at this point?  Perhaps we could speed up a

 3     bit.

 4        A.   So in addition to these refugees put up in collective

 5     accommodation, there were many flats that had been left empty during

 6     1992, and these refugees took up residence there, which caused us a great

 7     deal of problems in our work, in my line of work, because we had no

 8     records about the people coming into Mostar and so on.

 9        Q.   Tell us what the situation was like with respect to the army.

10     Were there many soldiers, military units, around; were they stationed

11     there all the time or did they change locations; was there a lot of

12     coming and going to and from Mostar, that kind of thing?

13        A.   As far as the military is concerned, and a moment ago we

14     mentioned the person who was a soldier only because he was wearing a

15     uniform, the whole town was full of people wearing uniforms.  We had

16     different units coming into town and leaving a few days later.  The

17     army -- the soldiers were put up in barracks outside town, but also in

18     the town proper.  So as far as the army was concerned, the town was full

19     of soldiers.

20        Q.   Tell us, please, was it only members of the military units who

21     wore uniforms?

22        A.   Well, everybody or almost everybody was wearing a uniform, some

23     because they were members of a unit, others as camouflage, portraying

24     themselves as being members of units.  So the vast majority of people in

25     town were wearing uniforms.

Page 51469

 1        Q.   And what was the situation like with respect to electricity, the

 2     public lighting system and so on?

 3        A.   In 1992, during the war and the war operations, we were left

 4     without any electricity in [indiscernible], so throughout the war there

 5     was no street lighting.  Flats would have electricity for a short while.

 6     It would come and go.  So the situation was rather chaotic with respect

 7     to electricity and lighting.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  A very short question, Witness, regarding the

 9     previous answer.

10             You said almost everyone wore uniforms.  Is that a gender-neutral

11     answer?  Does that include men and women?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant men mostly, although not

13     infrequently you could see women wearing uniforms too.

14             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

15             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Tell us, please, how were you technically equipped, you in the

17     Crime Department?

18        A.   Since the Crime Department was being formed - well, it started to

19     be formed in 1992, sometime in October, when I arrived, it was in its

20     inception - it was poorly equipped, and that applied to almost the whole

21     of 1993, which meant that we did not have the necessary manpower or

22     equipment to be able to do the job properly, so that we had to rely on

23     people from the Ministry of the Interior very often who did have some

24     equipment surviving from peace time.  We were poorly equipped.  We did

25     not have enough cars, or equipment, or professionals, so, generally

Page 51470

 1     speaking, the service was poorly equipped.

 2        Q.   Tell us, please, did you have any forensic experts, pathologists,

 3     ballistics experts and the like?

 4        A.   No, we didn't.  We would go to the Ministry of the Interior for

 5     forensic services.  And as for ballistics, our department at a point in

 6     time had very good co-operation with the ballistics experts from the

 7     Republic of Croatia.  And I remember a gentleman called Catipovic [phoen]

 8     who was a ballistic expert, and we would send them our samples for

 9     expertise.  But this process was a lengthy one.  It would last four or

10     five months and even as long as a year, because Croatia was also at war

11     at that time and it was only from them that we could receive ballistic

12     assistance.

13        Q.   Now, court pathologists, people trained to conduct post-mortems.

14     Did you have that?

15        A.   No.  We also had to rely on Split for that.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now let's take a brief look at the documents.  Some

17     of the documents that I'm going to show you are ones you've already seen

18     during the proofing session.  They're not from your operative zone, but

19     I'm going to show them, nonetheless, because they are typical documents

20     and you'll be able to tell us whether that was the type of document that

21     you were familiar with.

22             So let's look at the first one, which is P01405.  It's not an

23     exhibit yet.  Can you tell us what kind of document this is?  What is it?

24        A.   This is a document which the 4th Battalion of the Military Police

25     from Vitez compiled it, compiled a criminal report, sending it on to the

Page 51471

 1     military prosecutor in Travnik.  So this, then, is a document which

 2     clearly shows how the Crime Department of the Military Police functioned.

 3        Q.   We see here, after where it says "Criminal Report," then it says

 4     "against" and "because," and then it says that it is the crime of murder,

 5     that this concerns the crime of murder.  And we can see that it was --

 6     the crime was committed against Esad Salkic, the plaintiff.  Now, what

 7     ethnicity was this person?

 8        A.   Esad Salkic was a Bosniak, a Muslim.

 9        Q.   Now take a look at the next document, which is P01503.  It's

10     already an exhibit.  It is from the Military Prosecutor's Office in

11     Travnik, District Military Prosecutor's Office in Travnik.  What is this?

12        A.   It's a request to conduct an investigation.  It's a continuation

13     of something, and that is to say that something is a criminal report that

14     was previously filed.

15        Q.   It says there are grounds to suspect that on such and such a day,

16     due to an ethnic clash, Elezovic, Nermin, was killed, as was Sekovic,

17     Jasmin.  Now, these two persons, on the basis of their names, looking at

18     their names, can you tell us what ethnicity they were?

19        A.   They were Bosniak Muslims.

20        Q.   Let's move on to the next document, which is P03513.  It's still

21     not an exhibit.  It's a daily report for the 16th of July, 1993, of the

22     1st Company of the 1st Military Police Battalion of Mostar.  And under

23     the heading "Street Patrol Service," it says:

24             "In the morning hours, a civilian policeman, Marin Vidovic

25     arrived with a report linked to -- concerning two girls who were

Page 51472

 1     kidnapped the previous day in the street.  After having being kidnapped,

 2     they were raped, mistreated, and then they were threatened not to say

 3     anything to anyone about it or else they would be killed.  The

 4     above-mentioned civilian policemen told us the name of one of the

 5     perpetrators, and that was Mario Pazin.  And since we were also informed

 6     that the perpetrators had the insignia 'VP,' we made a check in order to

 7     find out whether that man is a member of our company, and we found that

 8     he was a member of our unit."

 9             And it goes on to say that:

10             "After this perpetrator was apprehended, the other perpetrators

11     of this sordid crime were also apprehended."

12             And then we see their names.  I don't have to read them.

13             Tell me, are you familiar with this event?  Did you know about

14     it, do you remember it?

15        A.   I do remember.  I was directly involved in the work of this

16     criminal report that was filed, four members of the military police, and

17     a criminal report was filed against these four members.  They were

18     convicted of the crime, and they were thrown out of the military police

19     as well.

20        Q.   Tell us, do you happen to remember -- since two girls are

21     mentioned here, do you remember what their ethnicity was?

22        A.   I think they were Bosniak.

23        Q.   Following on from what you've just said, you've looked at the

24     documents, they all refer to the same case, so shall we go through them

25     just briefly, and then you can tell me whether you remember the documents

Page 51473

 1     and what they were about.

 2             The first document that we're going to look at is P03483, and

 3     it's the record of an interview of Jadranko Ebrun [phoen], or

 4     Jadranka Ebrun.  The following document is P03508.  It's a report from

 5     your department, relating to the same incident.  Then we come to a record

 6     of an interview, which is P03482, and we see that it is an interview of

 7     Mario Pazin, one of the perpetrators mentioned previously.  And then we

 8     come to P03497, which is a form for prisoners' escort, with the names of

 9     the perpetrators.  And, finally, number P03523, we have a criminal report

10     from your department.

11             Are you going to say -- tell us whether all these documents which

12     we've looked through are ones that you are familiar with?  And if so,

13     what do they show?

14        A.   Very briefly, these documents and the sequence they are placed in

15     show the way in which the service functioned, the service that I worked

16     in.  And we see in this document exactly what the order of our work is,

17     regardless of whether it had to do with military policemen or any other

18     soldiers of the HVO.

19             I just wish to note that at the moment when we arrest these

20     soldiers, they were working on the security detail of the president or

21     something like that.  However, they were military policemen and they were

22     arrested, and criminal charges were brought against them, as we saw in

23     the last document.

24        Q.   Do you recall whether they were convicted?

25        A.   Yes, they were.  I remember that.

Page 51474

 1        Q.   Could you please look at P03571.  That's the next document.  The

 2     first page is an authorisation, and the second page is a request.  And on

 3     the third page, we see the photographs of these persons.  It has to do

 4     with their eviction from the military police.  You already mentioned

 5     that.  Do you remember, were they thrown out of the military police?

 6        A.   Yes, they were.  They were no longer military policemen.

 7        Q.   Could you please look at the next document now, P04143.  This is

 8     a criminal report.  We see that it is filed against unidentified

 9     perpetrators.  You explained the procedure to us previously.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

11             Before we look at the next document, I went through all the

12     documents, like you did, and indeed you said that the four individuals

13     were sentenced.  We had already heard of that.  We realised that they

14     were members of the security team of Mr. Prlic, so they were in charge of

15     Mr. Prlic's security.

16             When you did your job, were you not prevented from doing your

17     job, as part of the Crime Department, regardless of the position of those

18     individuals?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did not have any

20     obstacles in our path, because it had to do with some kind of security.

21     For us, they were military policemen.  You will see the sequence of these

22     dates, how these things developed, that this was done in a very short

23     period of time.  The matter had to be dealt with urgently, and that's how

24     we treated it.  Again, I say that we filed a criminal report, and in this

25     way we concluded our work in the best possible way.

Page 51475

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you can

 2     recollect, what sort of sentence was handed down for these four

 3     individuals?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question.  I

 5     really don't know what kind of prison sentence they were sentenced to,

 6     but I do know that they were sentenced.

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   We are looking at document P04143.  This is a criminal report

 9     that has to do -- actually, this is already an exhibit.  I am bringing it

10     up because we see, first of all, that it's against NN, unknown

11     perpetrators, and we see there are nine individuals who are injured

12     parties.  And we see it's the village of Mokronoge, where the crime was

13     committed.

14             Tell me, please, on the names of these individuals, can you tell

15     me what their ethnic background is?

16        A.   All of them are Bosniak Muslims by ethnicity.

17        Q.   Could you please tell me whether you had heard of this case?

18        A.   I had heard of this case.  At first, it was dealt with by the

19     Crime Department of the Military Police of Tomislavgrad, and a report was

20     filed against perpetrators unknown.  And later on, I also participated in

21     dealing with this criminal report because we actually did receive some

22     knowledge about the perpetrators.

23        Q.   Tell me, once you received this knowledge, was the perpetrator's

24     name included in the report, and do you know what ultimately happened?

25        A.   His name was inserted, Ivan Bakovic, nicknamed Ruda.  I think

Page 51476

 1     that he is still serving his sentence.  For a while, he was a fugitive,

 2     or, rather, he was a member of the 2nd Guards Brigade of the Croatian

 3     Army.  After this crime, he sought shelter in Croatia, but he was later

 4     found there and arrested.

 5        Q.   Do you know what he did in Livno as a member of the 2nd Guards

 6     Brigade?

 7        A.   Judging by his last name, I think that he originally came from

 8     that area.  He may have been there on leave or something like that.

 9        Q.   Could you please look at the next document, P06727.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

11             Before we move on to the next document, I was looking at the

12     description of the crime, and when I was a prosecutor, had I seen what

13     happened here, I would have jumped on my seat, because when investigators

14     arrive it says that UNPROFOR had moved the dead bodies.  Do you remember

15     that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not directly participate in

17     that because I had worked in Mostar throughout.  Livno is a different

18     operations zone.  It's quite simply a different zone.  I just got

19     involved when the identity was made known, and then I was engaged in the

20     search for Mr. Bakovic.  However, I cannot tell you about these details

21     because I did not take part in that segment of the investigation.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And as far as you

23     know, did UNPROFOR intervene in the investigations that you would carry

24     out?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of any such cases.

Page 51477

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now we are looking at document P06727.  This is a criminal report

 4     from your department against a person by the name of Miroslav Kolobara.

 5     It is the name that matters.  This report pertains to some of the

 6     problems that he created in the war hospital in Mostar.  Do you remember

 7     this particular incident?

 8        A.   I remember this incident, but by then I was already in Ljubusko

 9     and this matter was dealt with by Mostar.  I do remember the incident,

10     though.

11        Q.   Could you please look at the next document.  That is 5D04168.

12             Previously, when explaining the principle according to which you

13     worked, you said that once you filed the report, and if you gained any

14     additional knowledge, then you would -- then you would inform the

15     Prosecutor's Office about that.  5D04169.  We saw Miroslav Kolobara.

16     Again, here we see "Miro Kolobara."  Can you tell us what this is all

17     about?  Can you --

18        A.   It is precisely the addendum to the criminal report that was

19     signed by Zeljko Covic, the then head of department.  It was sent to the

20     District Military Prosecutor's Office, so it had to do with some new

21     knowledge that was acquired in the meantime.

22        Q.   Could you please look at 5D04168 now.  It has to do with the same

23     person, Miro Kolobara.  However, now there is another person involved,

24     another perpetrator.

25             In the first document, we saw that it was a criminal report that

Page 51478

 1     pertained to some trouble at the hospital, and then we saw the addendum

 2     where there's a reference to Kemal Selimovic and Miro Kolobara, and now

 3     we see this request for carrying out an investigation against two

 4     persons, Miro Kolobara and Kemal Selimovic.  And it says here, in the

 5     further text, because there are reasonable grounds to suspect that such

 6     and such had happened, he entered Drago Mijatovic's apartment, from which

 7     he brought out three men and a woman and a girl, all of Serbian

 8     ethnicity, allegedly.  The accused then drove these individuals to the

 9     separation line near Staklena Banka and took them over to the left bank

10     of the Neretva river.

11             Tell me -- this is a request for carrying out an investigation.

12     Can you give us your comments in this regard?

13        A.   My only comment is that once we completed our work, the Military

14     Prosecutor's Office did whatever was within the scope of their work.

15     They carry out their assignments.

16        Q.   Tell me, the person mentioned under number 2, Kemal Selimovic, it

17     says here that he is a member of the HVO.  And it says he's the son of

18     Husein and his mother's name is Rabija.  Can you tell us what his

19     ethnicity was, judging by his name and surname?

20        A.   He is a Bosniak Muslim.

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

22     the next document --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

24             Witness, I was busy reading this document.  Miro Kolobara is a

25     member of the Convicts Battalion.  This might be of importance.  As for

Page 51479

 1     the second individual, Kemal Selimovic, son of Husein, would he not be a

 2     Bosnian Muslim?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat your

 4     question?  I didn't quite understand it.  Kemal Selimovic?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It says "son of Husein."  Is he

 6     a Croat or a Muslim?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's a Muslim, as I've already

 8     said.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So he is a Muslim.

10             So they break into an apartment, and they are three residents of

11     Serbian nationality.  And if I understand correctly, this apartment is in

12     West Mostar.  Isn't it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bijeli Brijeg 29 is in the west

14     part of Mostar.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And apparently

16     those two individuals, who are members of the HVO and of the

17     Convicts Battalion, those two individuals, they were saying, Bring those

18     three people towards East Mostar, if I understand correctly.  And then

19     the military police has decided to launch an investigation on them and is

20     going to arrest them; and the crime is committed in August 1993.

21             So, Witness, as far as you know, was there in West Mostar a plan

22     aimed at sending away Muslim or Serbian people to take them to East

23     Mostar?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only answer I can give is that

25     this is an isolated case.  I had never heard of any kind of plan akin to

Page 51480

 1     the one that you're talking about.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So as far as you're

 3     concerned, it's an isolated case?

 4             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you have not heard of any

 6     other case of the sort?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know of other cases as well.

 8     However, as for the Kolobara/Selimovic case, I thought that that was an

 9     isolated case.  That's what I meant.  It wasn't part of a broader plan,

10     as you had asked.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As far as you can

12     recollect, Miro Kolobara, who, I believe, must have been heard by the

13     investigators, what did he say exactly?  Was he carrying out orders that

14     had been given by his commander or did he say that he committed this

15     crime for personal reasons?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what he said.  I

17     wouldn't want to guess now.  But I actually believe that it is a question

18     of personal motives.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is unfortunate that we

20     didn't get the audition of Kolobara because we may get some additional

21     information.

22             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

23     ... good thing to correct the transcript straight away.  In line 19 - we

24     still have it on our screen - your question that starts with:

25             [In English] "And you have not heard of any other case of the

Page 51481

 1     sort ..."

 2             [Interpretation] What follows is actually the witness's answer,

 3     but it hasn't been separated that way in the transcript.  So perhaps we

 4     should correct it now.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, you're very

 6     right.

 7             Very well, please proceed.

 8             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Lest there be any misunderstanding, when you said that this was

10     an isolated case, did you mean that such actions were not planned or

11     organised?

12        A.   Yes, such actions were not organised or planned.  These are

13     things that were committed by individuals, and we, in the department that

14     I worked in, fought against that throughout.

15        Q.   During your work, did you deal with cases that involved evictions

16     from apartments, forcible evictions, mistreatments?  Did you come across

17     such cases in your work?

18        A.   We did have such cases.  Citizens turned to us, they turned to

19     our department every day.  Citizens who faced such problems came and

20     reported such matters to the military police.  There was no obstacle in

21     their path.  They reported mistreatments and attempts to evict them from

22     their apartment.

23        Q.   When you would receive such information from citizens, what would

24     you do?

25        A.   We would do whatever was necessary in order to find the

Page 51482

 1     perpetrator and to file criminal charges against the perpetrator.

 2        Q.   Could we please look at the next document now, P09465.  This is a

 3     document from criminal records, and we see here the name of the

 4     perpetrator, Vedran Bijuk, also known as Splico, nicknamed Splico.

 5             First tell us, have you ever heard of this person and this last

 6     name?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How come you know about this person?

 9        A.   I know of the name of this person from the time when I worked in

10     the Crime Department of the Military Police, because he was one of the

11     persons who had been the subject of many criminal reports in the town of

12     Mostar.

13        Q.   Criminal reports, what did you mean?

14        A.   I meant that he committed many crimes in Mostar.

15        Q.   It says here that he did something on the 30th of June, 1993.

16             Let us look at the next document now, PD04199 [as interpreted].

17     5D04199.  You can see the document in front of you, and you had a chance

18     to review them all.  What kind of document is this?

19        A.   This is a document of the Mostar Police Administration, the

20     Inner Control Department.  And an official note of the personnel of that

21     police administration was made about the examination of the bodies of

22     civilians which was conducted on the 1st of July, 1993, and they were

23     autopsied in the old laboratory of the Bijeli Brijeg Wartime Hospital.

24        Q.   Please look at the name under 2, "Menira Becirovic," and

25     Avenija 35A in Mostar is mentioned as her address.  And take a look at

Page 51483

 1     the following document now.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.

 3             Witness, I still have a question regarding the previous document,

 4     5D04199.  I see as a -- at the letterhead, at least in the translation,

 5     that it mentions the Department of the Interior, which would be MUP, if

 6     I'm not wrong, and then the Mostar Police Administration.  Now, can you

 7     explain this?  As far as we have heard, unless I'm totally wrong, the --

 8     oh, it's Mostar Police.  I'm sorry.  I saw the "M" and I read "Military,"

 9     so the problem falls away.  But this is not a document of the military

10     police; is it right?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is a document of the

12     civilian MUP.  That is, the Mostar Police Administration had, within its

13     jurisdiction, the Department of the Interior, although there was also the

14     Mostar Police Station, but this was done by the staff of the Mostar

15     Police Administration.  That's the civilian MUP.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

17             I'm sorry, Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic, for losing time, but this goes

18     a bit fast.  One tries to look to know.

19             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Tell me, sir, did you co-operate with the civilian police and the

21     SIS in the uncovering of the perpetrators of crime?

22        A.   As I've already said it, we had constant co-operation with the

23     civilian police, partly because we had a shortage of some equipment, and

24     it is also impossible to go about our work without co-operating with the

25     civilian police.  The Mostar Police Administration gave us access to some

Page 51484

 1     documents.  Namely, there were two staff of ours who went to the civilian

 2     police daily to find us some personal information about some people who

 3     were important to us.

 4        Q.   Please take a look at document P3118.  If you remember the name

 5     of Menira Becirovic from the previous document and the address of

 6     Avenija 35A, this is a document of the security Sector, dated the

 7     2nd of July, 1993.  It's called "Information."  We see that Goran and

 8     Dragan Becirovic are mentioned as the source of this information, and we

 9     continue to read:

10             "The information is about their removal from the flat, attempted

11     murder of the twins, murder of their mother and their elder brother,

12     Jadranko."

13             We can see that this was handed to the Military Police

14     Administration, Mostar, on the 28th of July.  Did you receive this

15     information as it is stated in the document?

16        A.   Yes, we did.

17        Q.   Was this the way how SIS -- the SIS co-operated with you?

18        A.   This was a very complex case.  We probably requested additional

19     information from them.  I read the date, the 2nd of July, which was only

20     a day or two after the on-site investigation and those bodies in the

21     wartime hospital.  We requested information from them, and they gave it

22     to us.  We probably requested it for us to be able to continue working.

23        Q.   We can skip one document and continue with 5D04207.  Can you tell

24     us what kind of document this is?  Do read it.

25        A.   This is a document in which Zeljko Covic, one of our officials,

Page 51485

 1     drafted an official note about the interview with Vedran Bijuk, also

 2     known as Splico.

 3        Q.   Do you remember that this individual, Vedran Bijuk, was processed

 4     in your department?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let us look at the following document, P04139.  What kind of

 7     document is this?

 8        A.   As we had information about Vedran Bijuk, aka Splico, as the

 9     perpetrator of numerous crimes, Damir Cipra, one of our staff, here made

10     an official note about an interview conducted with him about the

11     circumstances, because he often figured in reports made by citizens,

12     mentioning a man with a strong Dalmatian accent as perpetrating crimes in

13     Mostar.

14        Q.   Now, please look at document 5D04201.  Tell us, what kind of

15     document is this?

16        A.   We were well advanced in the case of Vedran Bijuk here.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we move to this

18     document, I would like to go back to the previous document.

19             It seems that this person, known as Splico, was involved in

20     breaking into at least 80 apartments, and we are in July, unless I'm

21     mistaken.  Yes, I think it's July.  So my question is the following,

22     Witness.  The Prosecution's case is the following:  It says that the HVO

23     took possession of apartments occupied by Muslims, and those people were

24     evicted, and sometimes they were arrested and detained.  We saw some

25     evidence going along those lines; namely, that those flats were occupied

Page 51486

 1     in such a way.  Now we see a document stating that this person was

 2     involved in 80 illegal occupation of apartments.

 3             As far as you knew at the time, was there an over-arching plan

 4     aiming at taking possession of apartments for the benefit of Croats or

 5     was there no such plan?  What is your own position on this?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My position is the same as a short

 7     while ago.  I maintain that there was no such plan.  And the document to

 8     which you are referring shows that there were the same persons involved

 9     over and over again, so there were groups of people who, in these wartime

10     conditions, committed a huge number of crimes, and we combatted crime.

11     But I don't want to speculate about plans -- any plans of this sort, nor

12     do I know about their existence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you know that the military

14     police based in Mostar requisitioned apartments to host military

15     policemen?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any knowledge of

17     that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The soldiers that you knew,

19     that were under your command, did they all already have apartments?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my department, I believe that

21     everybody had their own apartments already or they had lived with their

22     parents until the war, like me.  I lived with my parents until the war.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What about you;

24     where did you live?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean during the war or before

Page 51487

 1     the war?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, during the war.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war, I stayed at a

 4     family house which is in the part of town known as Rondo, and

 5     occasionally I went to the apartment of my then girlfriend, who's now my

 6     wife, and her parents were refugees in Italy.  I occasionally went to

 7     that apartment and slept there.  It was near the market-place.

 8     Throughout the war, it was otherwise empty.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And as for the

10     apartment in the part known as Rondo, was that your own apartment or was

11     that an apartment that had been seized?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the apartment of my parents,

13     where I was born and had spent my entire life until then, on the first

14     floor of their family house, and my mother and brother still live there.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.

16             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Let us now look at this document, 5D04201.  Can you tell us what

18     kind of document this is?  Read it through to remind yourself.

19        A.   As I tried to explain a minute ago, we had already made

20     considerable headway in the case of Vedran Bijuk, also known as Splico,

21     and we issue a detention order to our military police battalion to detain

22     one Drazan Stojkic, because in the investigation against Splico we also

23     learned that these people were stealing large quantities of stolen

24     technical goods.  There was information about a flat containing those

25     goods.

Page 51488

 1        Q.   And what do you do when you suspect an apartment serving as a

 2     storage facility for stolen goods?

 3        A.   We use it as evidence for a crime.

 4        Q.   And what do you have to do?

 5        A.   We have to issue a receipt about objects seized.

 6        Q.   And how do you get into the apartment?

 7        A.   We need a search warrant.  We take the goods, and we issue a

 8     receipt about the seizure of these goods, which is one of -- which is

 9     also a piece of evidence that are submitted together with the criminal

10     report.

11        Q.   Take a look at the following document, which is 5D04209.  This is

12     another official note about an interview with the same person,

13     Vedran Bijuk, aka Splico.  It says that the interview took place on the

14     premise of the SVIZ.

15             Do you remember that Vedran Bijuk was really in remand prison,

16     and where was that?

17        A.   This is an official note which is made on the 14th of August on

18     our premises.  The official who conducted the interview is Zeljko Covic.

19        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, read what it says.  It doesn't say it was made in

20     your department.

21        A.   Oh, yes, right.  Our department worked on the premises of the

22     Central Military Remand Prison of Heliodrom, and that's where our

23     official conducted the interview with him.

24        Q.   When you say, Our department worked there, you mean that your

25     department was put up at the Heliodrom or that the interview took place

Page 51489

 1     there?  What exactly did you mean?

 2        A.   Let me briefly clarify for my subsequent evidence.  The

 3     department or, rather, the sector to which I belonged had its official

 4     premises on the first floor of the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering in

 5     Mostar.  That's where we stayed throughout my stay in Mostar and

 6     throughout the time I worked for that department.  Since there are no

 7     detention facilities there, when there was a reason for us to go to the

 8     Heliodrom, as here, to draft an official note and speak to an accused,

 9     then we go to Heliodrom.  Nowadays, in normal conditions, it's about --

10     it's a 10 minutes' drive away from down-town Mostar; but at that time, as

11     there were combat activities, we had to make a large detour and drive for

12     about 40 minutes from down-town Mostar to Heliodrom one way.  That's how

13     we proceeded every time we went there, and it was made the same way every

14     time we went to Heliodrom.  Then we returned to the premises of our

15     sector.  Then we type up the official note, and our driver or somebody

16     goes to Heliodrom on the following day to enable the one who gave the

17     interview the opportunity to sign it.

18             At Heliodrom, we had two offices on the first floor and one

19     office on the ground floor.  These are very small offices, two-by-two

20     metres with a desk and two chairs only, and that's where the persons were

21     brought who we wanted to process on that day.  After the interview, we

22     would return them to the Security Platoon of the Military Police who were

23     stationed at Heliodrom.  This is just by means of clarification.

24        Q.   But something is still unclear, so I will ask you a very clear

25     question, and please answer very briefly.

Page 51490

 1             When either police detention is imposed because of the commitment

 2     of a crime or an investigating judge placed that person in remand prison,

 3     where is that person physically put up?

 4        A.   It's at Heliodrom, the Central Military Remand Prison of

 5     Heliodrom.

 6        Q.   Now it is very clear.  We can skip one document.

 7             Now look at document 5D04210 --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  4202, interpreter's correction.

 9             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   4202.  What kind of document is this, because your signature is

11     there?

12        A.   This is a search warrant to be conducted in the apartment of

13     Drazan Stojkic.  He's the one connected to Splico.  And it says that they

14     suspect that stolen technical goods have been stored in his apartment.

15     And the date is the 14th of August.

16        Q.   Is it a document that you must have if you're to search a

17     premises?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now let's move on to the next document, which is 5D04203.

20             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  A very small technical point.

21             I think the last document, at least the one I have, was 4201 and

22     not 4202.

23             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that

24     there was an interpreter's correction on a line there.  It was 5D04202.

25     That was the document number.  And that's what's on the screen, the

Page 51491

 1     interpreter's correction, "4202."

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  You skipped a couple of them, then.

 3     Thank you.

 4             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, because I

 5     have to save time, Your Honour.  So if there's repetition, I tend to skip

 6     them.

 7        Q.   Now let's look at the next document, which is 5D04203.  What

 8     document is this?

 9        A.   This is from our Crime Prevention Department.  It's a receipt for

10     temporarily confiscated items.  And if we look at it more carefully, they

11     are technical goods; a television set, a video-recorder, and so on.

12        Q.   Can you tell us whether it's the same technical goods that

13     Vedran, Splico, was suspected as having stolen?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Just slow down when you're giving long answers, please.

16             It says "Citizen" at the bottom in the lower left-hand corner,

17     and then "Authorised Official" on the right-hand side.  Is this a

18     document that a person whose goods have been confiscated has to sign?

19        A.   Yes.  Every document of this type needed to be signed.

20        Q.   Let's go on to the next document now, please, which is 5D04200.

21     And tell us what it is.

22        A.   This is an official note from our department, compiled by one of

23     our workers, Goran Palameta.  And we can see that after the confiscated

24     goods and the report about that, we make up a list of the items remaining

25     on the premises, and the key is deposited at the department.

Page 51492

 1        Q.   Now, I'm going to skip two documents and move on to 5D04194.

 2     Tell us, Mr. Vidovic -- this is already an exhibit, but we see that it is

 3     a request to open an investigation.  However, unfortunately, we weren't

 4     able to find the crime report filed preceding this document.  But do you

 5     remember whether your department did, in fact, file a criminal report

 6     about this?

 7        A.   Yes, I do remember that a criminal report was filed against

 8     Vedran Bijuk, also known as Splico.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to the next document.  We're going to

10     skip one and move on to the one after that, which is 5D04212, 5D04212.

11     It's a document from the investigating judge, sent to your department.

12     Can you tell us what it's about?

13        A.   This is a document from the District Military Court in Mostar,

14     Drago Bevanda, the investigating judge, who is issuing an order to our

15     department to take Vedran Bijuk into custody, detained at Heliodrom, to

16     take him from the Heliodrom to the prison in Mostar.  And we send this on

17     down to the military police that saw to the transference of prisoners

18     from the court to the prison.

19        Q.   Now, in the course of your work, was it customary for you to

20     undertake things like that pursuant to orders from the investigating

21     judge?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, we're going to skip another document again and move on to

24     5D04216.

25             Earlier on, you answered a question and said that the

Page 51493

 1     investigating judge was the person who was authorised to issue a sentence

 2     of detention, and the duration of that detention.  Here we can see that

 3     this is a ruling, a decision.  Can you tell us what this is about?

 4        A.   The same military district court and the same judge is issuing a

 5     detention sentence for 15 days upon reception of the decision, based on

 6     the criminal report filed by our department against the individual.

 7             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether

 8     everybody in the courtroom has a transcript, but my co-counsel tells me

 9     that the transcript isn't working, the record isn't working in the

10     courtroom properly.

11             MS. WEST:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.

12             I just want to tell you that mine's not working either.

13             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if I can

14     continue, or are we going to put the problem right?  Can somebody give me

15     guidance on that?

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, we'll have the

18     break now, and then we will resume at half past.  I hope the technician

19     will be able to repair this.

20             We will have a 20-minute break.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 5.34 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

24             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I begin?

25     I'm not sure I understood.

Page 51494

 1        Q.   Tell us, please, Witness -- well, we have a series of documents

 2     to get through related to this same person, but I'm going to skip quite a

 3     few of them, seven in fact, and I'm going to move on to 5D04198, which

 4     is -- it's 5D04198.  It's a document from the Police Administration.  Is

 5     that the civilian police?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   We can see that it is sent to the District Military Court in

 8     Mostar, and it says "Reference" and your reference number.  And it goes

 9     on to say:

10             "In your requests cited, the subject you informed us about with

11     respect to Vedran Bijuk, aka Splico ..."

12             And then it says:

13             "Acting in response to your request, we hereby inform you that

14     the criminal police of the Mostar Police Administration has some not-yet

15     fully verified intelligence referring to the criminal activity of

16     Vedran Bijuk, also known as Splico.  The intelligence information has

17     been referred to the offices of the HVO Military Police Centre in

18     Mostar."

19             And I have two questions to ask you on that basis.  You've

20     already told us that you cooperated with the civilian police force.  Now

21     tell us whether you received this type of intelligence from them.

22        A.   We sent out requests to the civilian police because we were

23     poorly equipped technically.

24        Q.   Yes, yes, I know that.  But tell me whether the civilian police

25     co-operated with you, and did it supply you with information that you had

Page 51495

 1     requested?

 2        A.   Yes, it did co-operate and it did send us information.

 3        Q.   Now, tell us, please -- in this document, we can see that the

 4     military court is seeking information from the civilian police force.  In

 5     your work, did you know that the military court and military prosecutor

 6     asked for information from the civilian police force, as it did of you?

 7        A.   Yes, I did know that they were asking information from the

 8     civilian police, and they could have asked information from anybody who

 9     was able to supply them with information linked to the crime committed.

10        Q.   Thank you.  That completes this binder, and we can move on to the

11     next one.

12             Let's move on to 5D02097, which is the first document.  And I

13     asked you, when we started, about what steps were taken when serious

14     crimes had been committed; for example, the crime of murder.  And you

15     told me, in response to my question, that the investigating judge goes

16     out onto the crime scene.  This document is an eye-witness

17     record compiled by the investigating judge, and we see in the first

18     sentence underneath the heading that it was compiled at the crime scene

19     with respect to the murder of Ramiza Delalic, daughter of Becir.  And of

20     those present, we see the investigating judge listed, the deputy military

21     prosecutor, the crime technician of the police station, an employee of

22     the police station, and two criminal investigation operatives of the

23     military police.

24             First, tell me this:  Was this standard procedure for eye-witness

25     records following the crime?

Page 51496

 1        A.   In most cases, eye-witness records of this type were compiled as

 2     conducted by the High Court in Mostar.

 3        Q.   And did the military judge do the same?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, we have the name of the person killed, Ermina Delalic -- or,

 6     rather, Ramiza Delalic.  I couldn't see the first name properly, but the

 7     surname is Delalic, anyway.  What ethnicity was the person?

 8        A.   She was a Muslim.

 9        Q.   We're going to skip three documents now and move on to the fourth

10     one, which is 5D02095, and it's a request for sending in photographic

11     evidence which the Crime Prevention Department of Ljubuski is sending to

12     the Mostar Police Administration.  Now, this Mostar

13     Police Administration, was that the military police or the civilian

14     police?

15        A.   It was the civilian police.

16        Q.   Can you tell us why the civilian police was asked for the

17     photographic details?

18        A.   It is clear from the previous document, and for the one you're

19     showing me now, that since we didn't have the necessary technology to

20     provide photographic documentation, we had to rely on the

21     Police Administration in Mostar.  So we see from the previous document

22     how the Police Administration and Crime Prevention Department people

23     worked together, the Ljubuski centre was requesting for this photographic

24     file, if the file was ready.

25        Q.   We're now going to skip a document and move on to P06893, and

Page 51497

 1     it's another Crime Prevention Department document.  Do you know the

 2     person who signed the document?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  He was Kresimir Tolj, the head of the crime

 4     Prevention Department in the HVO Military Police in the Ljubuski centre,

 5     head of the Ljubuski centre.

 6        Q.   Now, let's look at the last paragraph in that document, and it

 7     says:

 8             "The on-site investigation established that during the attack on

 9     Omer Zagic's family house, Ramiza Delalic was killed in front of her

10     house located next to -- next-door to Omer Zagic.  Following the on-site

11     investigation and the questioning of witnesses, this centre filed

12     criminal reports to the Mostar OVT against the above-mentioned members of

13     the Convicts Battalion who were the perpetrators of these crimes -- of

14     the said crimes."

15             Now, tell me what "OVT Mostar" is.  What does that stand for?

16        A.   District Military Prosecutor.

17        Q.   And my second question is this:  Do you know whether these

18     criminal files were -- criminal reports were filed?

19        A.   Well, I'm familiar with this case because I was in Ljubuski

20     myself, in the Military Police Administration at that time, and I know

21     that these criminal reports were indeed filed.

22        Q.   Right.  Let's move on to the next document, which is 5D04259.

23     This is another record on a crime scene investigation, compiled by the

24     investigating judge, and it says here:

25             "Compiled at the scene of crime on the 25th of June, 1992, in

Page 51498

 1     front of the house of Husein Korac, in Bivolje Brdo, Capljina

 2     municipality, following the murder of Husein Korac, the owner of the

 3     house.

 4             "The Capljina Public Security Station, on the 25th of June, 1992,

 5     at 1200 hours, notified the investigating judge of this court that a

 6     murder had been committed."

 7             Tell me now, this Public Security Station, was that a civilian

 8     police station?

 9        A.   Yes, the civilian police station in Capljina.

10        Q.   Did you know about the fact that the civilian police, like you,

11     sent information and would send information to the investigating judge in

12     case of the crime of murder?

13        A.   Yes, we worked in similar fashion.

14        Q.   Now let's go on to the next document, which is 5D04154.  And let

15     me remind you, before we take a look at this document, that the plaintiff

16     in the previous document was Husein Korac.  Now, judging by his name, can

17     you tell us which ethnicity he was?

18        A.   He was a Muslim.

19        Q.   Now, the document we're now looking at is 5D04154, 0154, 04154.

20     5D04154:  It's from the District Military Court in Mostar.  It's a ruling

21     to open an investigation; and we see that the individual against whom the

22     investigation is being conducted is called Alen Ulakovic and that he was

23     in the HVO Capljina units.  And we see that there are reasonable grounds

24     to suspect that he killed Husein Korac.

25             Now, tell me, please -- we saw previously that this first

Page 51499

 1     eye-witness report was written by the investigating judge of the civilian

 2     court.  Now we see that this is done -- this document is being compiled

 3     by the district Military Court and the person was involved with the HVO.

 4     Now, if a member of the civilian police were to uncover that the person

 5     suspected of committing crime was a member of the HVO, what steps would

 6     they take, if any?

 7        A.   They also filed criminal reports.  And on the basis of that, the

 8     court makes a decision to start an investigation.

 9        Q.   Can we move on to the next document, 5D04258, 5D04258.  Can you

10     tell us what kind of a document this is?

11        A.   The Higher Public Prosecutor's Office in Mostar is issuing an

12     indictment against Alen Ulakovic, who we mentioned a few moments ago, and

13     the charge is murder.

14        Q.   Now we're going to look at the next document.  The document is

15     5D04173.  This is a document of the Mostar Police Station.  This is an

16     official note which was sent to the Military Police Administration.  And

17     we see, in the last page, that it says:

18             "I note that it is necessary to make the criminal investigators

19     of the Mostar Police Station aware of this document, as well as the

20     military police of the Mostar HVO, so that necessary legal action may be

21     taken against the mentioned soldier."

22             Tell me, if the civilian police discovered that a perpetrator was

23     a soldier, could they cede the case to you, as the military police, and

24     was it the military judiciary that was in charge of dealing with military

25     personnel?

Page 51500

 1        A.   Yes, military personnel were dealt with by the military

 2     judiciary.  We see here that the situation is very clear, that a soldier

 3     is extorting money from a civilian who was the vendor there, and then the

 4     civilian police sent this on to us to process the matter.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Now we are going to move on to the next document,

 6     5D04164.  Stanko Zelenika is the person we mentioned a moment ago.  Can

 7     you tell us what kind of a document this is and whether you recall the

 8     actual incident?

 9        A.   This is a criminal report establishing that Stanko Zelenika, a

10     member of the 2nd Brigade, is the person against who we are filing a

11     criminal report on account of the crime that we spoke of a moment ago.

12        Q.   We are going to skip a few documents, so we're going to skip one,

13     two, three, four, five documents -- six documents, rather, and we're

14     going to move on to 5D04175.  This is an exhibit.  It was signed by the

15     investigating judge of the District Court in Mostar, and it says here

16     "Decision."  The investigation against the accused Stanko Zelenika is

17     being halted.

18             The statement of reasons says, in the third paragraph, that:

19             "In motion number," such and such, "the district military

20     prosecutor in Mostar declared that he would not proceed with the criminal

21     prosecution of Stanko Zelenika."

22             Could you please tell us whether you knew that the district

23     military prosecutor could drop charges even after you file a criminal

24     report?

25        A.   Yes, I knew that he could drop charges.  However, the injured

Page 51501

 1     party could initiate proceedings once again.

 2        Q.   Let us look at the next document now, please, 5D04165.

 3             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.

 4             Witness, if I look at this, it seems that the prosecutor is not

 5     giving any reasons for discontinuing the investigation.  Is it his free

 6     discretion to discontinue for any reasons of opportunity?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We, I mean the department that I

 8     worked in, cannot influence that.  We were always just a service, as it

 9     were, of the prosecutor, so his decisions were his alone.

10             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  That does not answer my question.  My question

11     was whether the prosecutor is entitled to discontinue proceedings if he

12     thinks this is a useful thing to do, without having to give specific

13     reasons, such as the investigation has shown that there is no sufficient

14     reason to justify going on with the investigation.

15             I hope I managed to express myself.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to you is going to be

17     that I wish the reason were mentioned in this decision or in the

18     statement of reasons.  A statement of reasons without stating the reasons

19     is not right, as far as I'm concerned.  However, that is his

20     discretionary right because he's the prosecutor.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That's exactly what I wanted to

22     hear, that it was his discretionary right.  Some legal orders are like

23     this; others are different.  Thank you.

24             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We're looking at the next document now, that is, 5D04165.  This

Page 51502

 1     is a proposed indictment --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 3     microphones please be switched off.  We cannot hear the speaker.

 4             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   It says here in which capacity these persons were acting at the

 6     check-point of Vrapcici.  Checking vehicles, they asked a driver for such

 7     and such a thing, and they asked for money, they shared the money, and

 8     they did the same thing in the case of several drivers who are unknown.

 9     Do you remember this case, and do you remember whether this proposed

10     indictment was based on a criminal report that came from your department?

11        A.   To the best of my recollection, this document was adopted after

12     our department filed a criminal report.

13        Q.   Let us move on to the next document, 5D04230.  This is a criminal

14     report that the District Military Prosecutor's Office in Mostar is filing

15     on behalf of Edin Serdarevic, a citizen.  My first question is whether

16     citizens could report crimes directly to the prosecutor, and if so, did

17     they do that?

18        A.   They could do it, and we can see here, on the 10th of March,

19     Edin Serdarevic from Crnici appeared of his own volition, and he filed a

20     criminal report against Ante Skoda, a member of the HVO.

21        Q.   Tell, Edin Serdarevic, what would his ethnic background be?

22        A.   Edin Serdarevic is a Muslim.

23        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on to the next document, 5D04231.  This is

24     a document of the District Prosecutor's Office in Mostar, and we see that

25     Edin Serdarevic is mentioned.  We see here that the injured party is

Page 51503

 1     filing a report, and thereby a request for starting an investigation.

 2     Was this a possible course of action?  Could the prosecutor do this on

 3     the basis of a direct report filed by a citizen?

 4        A.   To the best of my knowledge, yes.

 5        Q.   Very well.  We are going to skip a few documents yet again.

 6     We're going to skip four documents, and we're going to deal with the

 7     fifth one there, 5D04181.  This is a document that consists of several

 8     pages.  Could you please take a look and tell us what this is all about?

 9        A.   This has to do with the Capljina office.  As we can see, it is a

10     criminal report filed against soldier Veselko Kozina, and we see that he

11     was taking money from detainees.

12        Q.   Tell us, please, are these the kind of criminal reports that you

13     wrote up?  I'm referring to the form, not the actual content in this

14     case.

15        A.   Yes, this is basically what they looked like.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now we're going to skip a document and move on to

17     5D03087.  Tell me -- we saw just now that you did regular police work, as

18     the police usually does.  You filed criminal reports, et cetera.  Tell

19     me, did you take any other kind of action when combatting crime?

20        A.   We see here that at a meeting, we were being informed about

21     certain things, and we are acting in accordance with that.

22        Q.   Tell me, it says here on page 2 in the Croatian version, and in

23     English it is page 2 as well, I think, it says:

24             "1.  Appoint three groups."

25             Do you remember that some kind of groups were made to fight

Page 51504

 1     crime?

 2        A.   Already in midsummer 1993, we tried to organise ourselves; that

 3     is to say, all of us who fought crime, the civilian police and the

 4     military police and the SIS.  Already then, we were trying to set up

 5     certain professional groups that would deal with crime.  This is just an

 6     indication of what happened in November and what form this assumed.  So

 7     we have these groups all along.  We're trying to work together, because

 8     there are a great many crimes that we cannot deal with on our own.

 9        Q.   Tell me, did the representatives of the military judiciary, the

10     Military Prosecutor's Office, the army, et cetera, co-operate with you on

11     this kind of thing?

12        A.   Yes.  In July, I think, a meeting had been initiated by the

13     Ministry of the Interior, and we actually met up with a representative of

14     the Military Court and a representative of the Military Prosecutor's

15     Office.  And that is precisely the kind of thing we dealt with together

16     with the MUP and the military police; that is to say, the crime

17     departments of the MUP and of the military police.

18        Q.   Tell me -- you mentioned some criminal groups in Mostar.  Were

19     any arrests made?  Do you remember anything of the kind, that there were

20     actions in that regard?

21        A.   In Mostar, we had these crime groups that we could not deal with

22     on our own, we as our department, so through this kind of co-ordination

23     and through such meetings, we tried to deal with the matter.  Arrests

24     were made.  Especially in the month of July and August 1993, practically

25     all of Mostar was the front-line, so what happened was that in the area

Page 51505

 1     of combat activity there would be buildings where civilians still lived,

 2     so very often within that zone there was a lot of looting.  These

 3     apartments were being broken into and so on.  We had an action, and we

 4     called the command of the defence of the city to help us deal with a

 5     criminal group in the street of Ricina.  I think this was precisely

 6     towards the end of July 1993.  That would be an example on the basis of

 7     which I could explain how we fought against these criminal groups.

 8        Q.   Just a second, please.  Let us look at document 5D04183.

 9             Previously, we saw what the situation was like when the civilian

10     police ceded cases to military organs when a case would involve military

11     personnel, and now look at this.  This is a document of the District

12     Military Prosecutor's Office in Mostar, sent to the Higher Public

13     Prosecutor's Office, that is to say, the Civilian Public Prosecutor's

14     Office in Mostar, and it says here:

15             "Please find enclosed a criminal report from the Military Crime

16     Police Department - Mostar Section - against suspect Bozidar Skobic,

17     suspected of having committed the crime of robbery ..."

18             In paragraph 2, it says that the report shows that the suspect

19     was relieved of military service because of illness, and, therefore,

20     since he was relieved of military duty, it is the civilian prosecutor's

21     office that is in charge of dealing with that person.

22             Tell me, were you aware of such cases?  Were there cases of that

23     kind when things were the other way around, when the military authorities

24     were sending cases to the civilian authorities?

25        A.   We filed criminal reports against every person --

Page 51506

 1             JUDGE PRANDLER:  I'm really sorry, and I restrained myself up to

 2     now, but again and again you are talking very quickly and you give a

 3     headache to the interpreters.  So please -- actually, the counsel has

 4     promised and asked the witness to speak slowly and making a pause between

 5     questions and answers.  Please stick to this rule.  Thank you.

 6             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Sir, on pages 2 and 3 we can find the enclosed criminal report

 8     which the prosecutor has mentioned.  That's a report made by the Military

 9     Police Crime Department.  And on the last page, we see a description of

10     the crime, where the injured party is named.  Her name is Saja Coric.

11     Can you tell by the name of this person which ethnicity she is?

12        A.   She's a Bosniak woman.

13        Q.   We'll skip some documents again, since I have already used two

14     hours.

15             We'll now skip two documents and go to 5D04238.  This is a

16     criminal report for attempted murder at the Gabela Prison.  Do you know

17     the person who signed this document?

18        A.   Yes.  He is a member of the Crime Department of the Military

19     Police at Capljina.

20        Q.   And did you know him?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We'll have to skip something again, one document, and go to

23     5D04237.  This is a document of the Mostar Military Court -- actually,

24     the Mostar Military Prosecutor's Office, sent to the Military Court.  The

25     same name as on the previous document.  What kind of document is this?

Page 51507

 1        A.   This document follows logically from the criminal report we

 2     saw -- we have just seen.  Zivko Korda.  This is an indictment of the

 3     Military Prosecutor's Office of Mostar.

 4        Q.   Let's move on to the following document, 5D0420 -- correction,

 5     5D04240.

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   The document reference is 5D04240, 5D04240.  Can you please

 8     repeat your answer, because it was not recorded.  What kind of document

 9     is this?

10        A.   This is a judgement of the Higher Court of Mostar in the

11     proceedings against the accused, Zivko Korda, mentioned previously.

12        Q.   Let's move on to the following document, 5D04242.  What kind of

13     document is this?

14        A.   This is a criminal report of our section from Mostar which was

15     filed in September 1992.

16        Q.   In the description of the crime, we see that this person stole

17     two TV sets and an automobile, the proprietor of which is unknown.  Since

18     the owner is unknown, how could the military police know that this person

19     has in his possession stolen objects?

20        A.   We had operative intelligence, and in many such cases we got this

21     information from citizens.

22        Q.   What does the "operative intelligence" mean?  Can you use a

23     simpler term?  Does that mean that somebody informs you, This guy is

24     bringing home TV sets, or whatever?

25        A.   As I said initially, we also got information from the military

Page 51508

 1     police patrols, as well as from citizens, from the MUP.  It is possible

 2     that here, somebody reported the fact that this car was used without

 3     license plates or something.

 4        Q.   Take a look at the following document, please, 5D04243.  What

 5     kind of document is this?

 6        A.   This is a criminal report of our department from Mostar against

 7     Ivan Zelenika for rape and aggravated threat.

 8        Q.   In the description of the crime, we see that the injured parties

 9     are Ljiljana Janjic and Olja Telebak.  Can you tell by their names what

10     their ethnicity is?

11        A.   Their ethnicity is Serbian.

12        Q.   Now look at document 5D04248.  This is a criminal report against

13     one Milenko Kordic.  It's a report compiled by your section, and it's

14     about an offence committed at the Cadjava Mehana Cafe.  Have you heard of

15     this incident?

16        A.   I'm familiar with this incident.  I worked for the Crime Section

17     in Mostar at the time, and I believe that I was directly involved in the

18     processing of this murder.

19        Q.   I will skip a document and move on to 5D04249.  This is an

20     on-site investigation record.  We can see that the on-site investigation

21     was conducted in the Cadjava Mehana Cafe, and we see that it was signed

22     by the investigating judge of the District Military Court.  Do you

23     remember that this on-site investigation was carried out, as you have

24     indicated that you were involved in this case?

25        A.   I remember this on-site investigation, and I see here that

Page 51509

 1     Damir Cipra, a member of our crime department, attended the on-site

 2     investigation.

 3        Q.   We will skip some documents again and go to the third document.

 4     So we have skipped two.  That's 5D04255.  We have seen that a criminal

 5     report was filed against Milenko Kordic.  Can you read this and tell us

 6     what kind of document this is?  We see your signature on it.

 7        A.   This is an amendment that we sent to the District Military Court

 8     where the official notes of ours and those of the Mostar Police Station,

 9     based on the criminal report filed on the 19th of August against the

10     suspect in that murder case who we mentioned earlier.

11        Q.   Look at the following page of this document, please.  It reads

12     "Official Note compiled by Damir Cipra."  It says:

13             "Through intelligence work, I found out that the Kordic brothers,

14     on the night of 9/10 August 1993, took from his flat one Vahid Krilic,

15     whose body was found the following morning in the park ...

16             "The same persons took by force the Hodzic family from their

17     apartment in 1st Street ..."

18             As you worked on this case, do you remember that you came by this

19     additional information and that you submitted them to the Prosecutor's

20     Office in this way?

21        A.   Well, this was done by my colleague, Damir Cipra, and he amends

22     the previous documents with this official note, with the information

23     about the murder of Vahid Krilic, and this was an amendment to the

24     criminal report which was submitted to the District Military Court in

25     Mostar.

Page 51510

 1        Q.   These persons, the Hodzic family and Vahid Krilic, can you tell

 2     their ethnicity?

 3        A.   They are Muslims.

 4        Q.   Let's take a look at the following document --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I haven't put a question to you

 6     for a while.

 7             You have just said that the victims are Muslims.  Were they

 8     living in West Mostar?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this 1st Street is

10     in the western part of Mostar.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in August 1993.  As far

12     as you know, by and large, according to you, how many Muslims were living

13     in West Mostar in August of 1993?  I'm asking you to provide us with

14     empirical data.  Here, we have proof of the fact that there was at least

15     one person living there.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to speculate about

17     numbers, but there was a large number -- a significant number of people

18     who lived in the western part of Mostar.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This significant number you

20     have mentioned, are you talking in the tens of thousands, of hundreds;

21     what, exactly?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I dare say thousands of people.

23             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let's move on to the following document, 5D04250.  This is a

25     ruling on detention, issued by the investigating judge of the District

Page 51511

 1     Military Court in Mostar against Milenko Kordic.  The reasoning states:

 2             "An investigation has been opened against the accused,

 3     Milenko Kordic, because there are reasonable grounds to suspect that he

 4     committed the crime of murder ...

 5             "The nature of the crime is such that the accused's being at

 6     large would disturb the local population.

 7             "For that reason, the accused should be immediately arrested and

 8     detained."

 9             We can see that this was, among others, sent to the military

10     police, the Crime Prevention Department in Mostar.  At that time, you

11     were the head of that department.  Do you remember whether this person

12     was, indeed, detained pursuant to this ruling?

13        A.   As far as I remember, he was.

14        Q.   We will skip four documents now and continue with the fifth,

15     P04163.  This is the statement of a witness.  Officer Toni Ramljak

16     conducted the interview.  Do you know who that was?

17        A.   He was an official of the military police in Mostar.

18        Q.   We see the name of Jeton Berisa [phoen], a member of the

19     Convicts Battalion, Krusko.  Do you remember this individual?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know whether a criminal report was filed against him?

22        A.   Our department did file a criminal report against him.

23        Q.   All right, let's move on to the following document, P01728.

24             You told us initially that military commanders, if they had the

25     necessary information about the perpetrator, could file a criminal report

Page 51512

 1     themselves.  Can you tell us what this document is about, what kind of

 2     document it is, P01728?

 3        A.   This a document of the 2nd Brigade of the Operative Zone of

 4     South-East Herzegovina.  It follows from the document that the brigade

 5     commander directly files a criminal report against his soldiers for

 6     stealing a rifle.

 7        Q.   Did you know of such cases where commanders filed criminal

 8     reports against their soldiers?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   We'll skip now -- we'll skip three documents now.  This is a

11     document from Central Bosnia, P00453.  That's not your zone.  I just ask

12     you for the sake of principle.  Here, the commander from Central Bosnia,

13     the commander of the zone of operations, orders the military police that

14     based on the evidence and the existing need, go and arrest a person with

15     a patrol and take that person to prison because there is information that

16     that person committed a crime.

17             You told us that you received daily orders from the zone of

18     operations and that you assisted military commanders.  Did you receive

19     such orders?  Is this what you had in mind?

20        A.   This order was sent down to the battalion that I was a member of,

21     the military police battalion to which I belonged.  As I said, first of

22     all, the 3rd Battalion, then it was the 5th Battalion, and then, through

23     the daily briefings, we would be given this kind of order.  If the

24     commander of the operative zone were to issue it, we would have to act

25     upon his orders, carry them out.

Page 51513

 1        Q.   Now we're going to skip a document and move on to the next one,

 2     which is P02832.  Can you tell us what this document is?

 3        A.   These are the minutes about an on-site investigation carried out

 4     by the brigade military police from Gornji Vakuf.

 5        Q.   Did you have cases where the brigade military police was involved

 6     in scene-of-crime investigations?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Then we can move on.  5D04350 is the document number, 5D04350.

 9     This is a document from the 1st Brigade, sent to the SIS of the

10     1st Brigade.  Actually, not the 1st Brigade, but the 3rd Battalion of the

11     1st Brigade, and sent to the SIS of the 1st Brigade, signed by SIS

12     officer and commander of the 3rd Battalion.  And the subject is:  "Report

13     on the attack on the Djulic family."

14             "On Friday, the 18th of June, 1993, at around 2030, three

15     uniformed men entered the house of Ibro Djulic, without any insignia and

16     wearing hoods over their heads.  In the house, they found Ibro and his

17     wife, Naza, and they mistreated them until they were insensible."

18             Now, I'm skipping over two paragraphs, and it says:

19             "All this went on until about 2300 hours or, rather, until

20     soldiers from the 3rd Battalion arrived, who, at around 130 hours, after

21     searching the surroundings, found Ibro and Naza in the tobacco

22     plantation ..."

23             And then in the last paragraph, it says that the brigade

24     operative was informed about this event in a timely manner, and after

25     that the necessary steps were taken to solve the case:

Page 51514

 1             "All data and information in connection to the investigation were

 2     handed over to the members of the police."

 3             Now, tell us -- we saw earlier on today Article 27, the decree

 4     governing the district courts.  Now, tell me whether this action was

 5     taken pursuant to Article 27.

 6        A.   We're dealing with the Knez Domagoj 1st HVO Brigade, which

 7     I think was Capljina, and here we have a fine example of where the

 8     battalion commander works with the SIS operative to throw light on this

 9     event.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I think I'm going to skip over some other

11     documents and move on.

12             May we go into private session for just a minute, please,

13     Your Honours?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we move into

15     closed session, please.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 51515

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.36 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of March,

 7                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.