Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 51516

 1                           Tuesday, 30 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The Accused Praljak and Pusic not present]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 8     call the case.  Thank you.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Prlic et al.  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Tuesday, the 30th of March.  I would like to greet the

15     witness, Mr. Vidovic, as well as all the accused that are in the

16     courtroom and those that are not in the courtroom.  I would like to greet

17     the counsels, all the members of the OTP who are in the courtroom, as

18     well as everybody else assisting us in the courtroom.

19             We are going to proceed with the examination-in-chief.  We have

20     34 minutes left.

21             Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic, you have the floor.

22                           WITNESS:  ZVONKO VIDOVIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

25     Your Honour, and everybody else in the courtroom.

Page 51517

 1             I'd like to apologise to everybody for skipping some documents

 2     yesterday, so we're going to go through them today, and perhaps we'll

 3     need a little time to find the documents I wish to address.

 4             We looked at 5D04350 yesterday.  And after that, we're going to

 5     skip -- having looked at that, we're going to skip six documents and go

 6     to 5D02146.

 7                           Examination by Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic: [Continued]

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vidovic, you told us yesterday that you and

 9     the other members of your department were involved up at the front-line,

10     that you held the line at the Bulevar.  Can you tell us now whether that

11     had any effect on your work?

12        A.   It certainly did affect our work as a service.

13        Q.   Have you managed to find the document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   This is a special report signed by you, sent to Mr. Coric, and in

16     the report, in the first sentence, it says that:

17             "From Mr. Josip Djogic, we have learned about the decision on the

18     order of Mr. Rade Lavric that employees and operatives of the Mostar

19     Centre should go to the front defence line confronting -- facing the

20     enemy."

21             Do you remember this, and can you tell us what type of decision

22     it is, what type of order it is, and so on?

23        A.   This is a decision made by the operative zone, that is to say,

24     ordering us to go up to the front-line.  And we were against that, but

25     through our battalion we said that we had to respect the decision taken

Page 51518

 1     by the operative zone, although we challenged it.

 2        Q.   Would you look at the next document now, please, the very next

 3     one, P05471.  This is a document signed by Mr. Coric.  It is about the

 4     engagement of the police up at the front-line.  And in paragraph 3 from

 5     the end of the document, on the last page, it says the following:

 6             "Terror and crime of all types is on the increase, and that is

 7     worrying, and threatens to lead to anarchy and lawlessness in the free

 8     territories.

 9             "I claim with responsibility that we are not able to perform even

10     regular military police tasks with the forces remaining after the

11     deployment of the military police on front-lines, not to mention complex

12     interventions and other significant military police tasks."

13             Tell me, please, do you agree with Mr. Coric?

14        A.   That is precisely what I said earlier on.  Based on the previous

15     document, we were already up at the front-line, we were already on our

16     way.  Instead of our military police tasks, regular ones, we were already

17     moving towards the front-line, so this is precisely what I was saying

18     earlier on.

19        Q.   All right.  Now we're going to skip quite a few documents and

20     move towards the end of the binder to document P03651.  It's towards the

21     end.

22             You told us yesterday -- P03651.  You told us yesterday that you

23     went to Heliodrom because there were detainees there whom you either kept

24     there for police processing or the investigative judge had ordered them a

25     period of detention while the investigation was ongoing.  Now, this is a

Page 51519

 1     document signed by you, and I'm going to read certain sections of it and

 2     then I'm going to ask you some questions about it.

 3             The document is titled "Decisions Adopted at the Meeting Held in

 4     Ljubuski on the 22nd of July, 1993, at the Military Police

 5     Administration."  In the document, you go on to say:

 6             "With regard to the meeting held on the 22nd of July, 1993, in

 7     Ljubuski, at which, in addition to the chief of the Military Police

 8     Administration of the HZ-HB, Mr. Valentin Coric, all department chiefs in

 9     the Military Police Administration were present, and we would like to

10     inform you of the following for the sake of clearer co-operation in

11     future:

12             "The activities and competence of the Crime Prevention Department

13     were reiterated once more at the meeting.  It was assessed that direct

14     co-operation with the active police (military police and MUP) and the

15     District Military Court was good, the initiation of proceedings was clear

16     and there was no overlap, while our co-operation with officers of the

17     Central Military Remand Prison must be indirect.  Immediacy is achieved

18     through the District Military Court.  We conduct criminal processing

19     until we assess that there are elements to move criminal proceedings and

20     the SIS co-operation is necessary.  Therefore, all the individuals who

21     are detained and against whom no criminal proceedings have been initiated

22     or no criminal report has been filed, pursuant to the chief of the

23     Military Police Administration, are unknown to our department.  This

24     refers solely to the large number of Muslims who were brought

25     indiscriminately to the Central Military Remand Prison building and then

Page 51520

 1     forgotten.  Through inertia, the Crime Prevention Department conducted

 2     interviews with over 2.000 people, but not a single one of them was of

 3     any interest with respect to crime.  The question was posed.  Mr. Coric

 4     was asked about the duties -- about our duties and was the reason for him

 5     issuing the order for us to start dealing with crime."

 6             Tell me, please -- in the first paragraph you state that:

 7             "In order to ensure clearer future co-operation, we should like

 8     to inform you of the following:"

 9             Who is it that you are informing by compiling and sending this

10     document?

11        A.   I'm writing this document to the head of the Military Remand

12     Prison at Heliodrom.

13        Q.   I'd like you to tell me now, with respect to the third paragraph,

14     the problem of interviews with over 2.000 people were mentioned.  Do you

15     remember what interviews these were?

16        A.   Sometime in July 1993, through our military police battalion, we

17     received an order telling us to report to Heliodrom and that we should

18     make a list there of all the detainees who had been disarmed of the HVO

19     who were Muslims and whose units had isolated them and put them in

20     Heliodrom.

21        Q.   Would you pause there for a moment.  Let me just ask you, you

22     said it came in through the battalion.  Was the order issued to you by

23     the battalion?

24        A.   The battalion received the order via the operative zone, and it

25     just forwarded it on to me -- to us based on some hierarchy or chain of

Page 51521

 1     command.

 2        Q.   You said that you made a list, drew up a list.  What kind of list

 3     was that?

 4        A.   On the premises of the Military Remand Prison of Heliodrom, we

 5     took down the basic details of the persons there; names, surname, and

 6     where they were from, just the basics.  And we did that together with the

 7     MUP and SIS and some workers from the Heliodrom Prison itself.

 8        Q.   Do you happen to remember the name of the person from SIS who did

 9     this job with you?

10        A.   As far as SIS is concerned, it was the SIS of the brigade; that

11     is to say, Mr. Ivica Pusic was mostly present when we worked together

12     with SIS.

13        Q.   Tell me, please, when those lists were compiled, did you take

14     them with you, did you hand them over to someone?  What happened to them?

15        A.   Those lists were handed over, through the warden of the prison,

16     to the Centre for Social Work and for Displaced Persons.  There was a

17     woman called Biljana Nikic, I remember, and we actually compiled those

18     lists for her.  And I state very precisely here that those lists weren't

19     of any interest to us with respect to crime-solving.

20        Q.   Let's go back two documents.  P05128 is the document I'd like us

21     to look at now.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

23             Mr. Vidovic, the document that we've just seen, P03651, is an

24     important document.  We see that you drew up a list of 2.000 people, and

25     it seems that according to you, those people had no connection with the

Page 51522

 1     crimes in question.  Should we infer from that that they should have been

 2     freed?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't decide about

 4     that, but I was given a task to do which I didn't feel I ought to.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you were given this task,

 6     and it's to your credit, but who was in a position to free those people?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I didn't know under

 8     whose authority they were or who had the authority to do that, because

 9     they were just disarmed members of the Croatian Defence Council and their

10     direct, immediate commanders had authority over them.  I only knew things

11     up to that level.  And I was only interested in the people I worked with

12     in the Crime Department, so this task prevented me from going about my

13     daily duties and carrying those out.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.

15             Among those 2.000 people that were interviewed, were they all

16     soldiers from the HVO or were there, amongst those, civilians as well?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ones that I interviewed and

18     whose details I took down, they were HVO soldiers of Muslim ethnicity in

19     the vast majority of cases.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying "in the vast

21     majority of cases."  Why?  Were there also HVO soldiers that were not of

22     Muslim ethnicity that were also detained?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't remember exactly now,

24     but I assume there were cases like that too.  But I have to mention that

25     we're dealing with July 1993 here.  That's the period.

Page 51523

 1             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] We said we'd move on and

 2     go to P05128.

 3        Q.   This is a document signed by the lady you mentioned a moment ago,

 4     Biljana Nikic?

 5        A.   I haven't got the document.

 6        Q.   The document number is P05128.  I misspoke and said "go forward

 7     two documents," but you need to go back two documents.

 8             This is a document, as I was saying, signed by Biljana Nikic,

 9     whom you mentioned earlier on.  You can take a look at it.  We see that

10     it was sent to the Crime Investigation Department, Mostar, among others.

11     Do you recognise the document?  Are you familiar with it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you tell us what it's about?

14        A.   Ms. Biljana Nikic is contacting our department and asking us,

15     from the aspects of crime investigation, to check the criminal

16     responsibility of these two persons, Ifet Selimovic and Ibro Maric, and

17     it's sent to the Crime Investigation Department of Mostar, as we can see.

18        Q.   When you say to check out the criminal responsibility, does that

19     mean that you're checking your records to see if they have a criminal

20     record?

21        A.   Yes, precisely, that's right.

22        Q.   Now look at the next document immediately after that one, which

23     is P05371.  This is a certificate, stating your name, but it says that it

24     is your name; however, somebody else signed it.  And it says here that

25     there are no disciplinary or criminal proceedings instituted against the

Page 51524

 1     persons on this list.  Tell me, what kind of a certificate is this?  Is

 2     that the one that you spoke of a moment ago?

 3        A.   This is precisely an answer to the questions that were put to us

 4     by the Office for Refugees and [indiscernible].  I see that someone else

 5     signed this, Damir Cipra, I think.  That is my colleague from the office;

 6     however, that is of lesser importance.  This is exactly the way we issued

 7     these certificates, as to the request of the office.  That is to say,

 8     once we check that certain persons, from the request that they had sent

 9     us, and when we are sure that there are no criminal proceedings against

10     these persons, then we issue such a certificate.

11        Q.   Very well.  Sir --

12             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Excuse me.  I would like to make an observation

13     on the translation.  Here, in the English text, at least, one speaks of

14     criminal or misdemeanor proceedings, and the translation for

15     "misdemeanor" was "disciplinary," but that is wrong.  "Misdemeanor" is

16     minor crimes, but it is clearly not disciplinary.  And as we are in the

17     field of the military, I think it's important to make sure that the

18     distinction is correct.

19             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20     You're quite right.

21        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to move three documents back.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

23             Witness, the question of translation is important.  Could you

24     perhaps read, in your own language, what it says when the you hereby

25     certify that those people have not been subjected to any proceedings?

Page 51525

 1     Could you please read that in your own language, please, because I want

 2     to be sure.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Certificate."  Your Honour, you

 4     want this document, 3371, P371 [as interpreted]; right?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it is P03571, yes.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Certificate":

 7             "It is hereby certified that this centre is not conducting

 8     criminal or misdemeanor proceedings against the persons from the

 9     above-mentioned list and request submitted by your office.  It is issued

10     for the purpose of regulating release from the Mostar SVIZ and for travel

11     abroad, as follows:"

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

13             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Let us just explain in order to avoid any kind of

15     misunderstanding.  You heard what His Honour said a few moments ago.

16     Misdemeanors are minor crimes that a misdemeanors court deals with.  It

17     is not disciplinary violations that are meant by that; right?  You're

18     nodding, but you have to give a verbal answer.

19        A.   Yes, yes, I agree.

20        Q.   Misdemeanors are, for example, disrupting public law and order,

21     drunken driving, et cetera?

22        A.   Precisely.

23        Q.   Now we're going to go back a few documents, three documents to be

24     precise, so we're going back to 5D032 -- 4226, rather, 04226.  It

25     consists of several pages.  On the first page, there is a reply to a

Page 51526

 1     request, and on the remaining few pages there are bulletins for wanted

 2     persons.  These are documents sent to the District Military Court, and it

 3     says:

 4             "In response to your requests, we are forwarding wanted notices

 5     for the following persons:"

 6             Can you tell us what this is about?

 7        A.   This has to do with a request from the District Military Court

 8     that asked us to submit to them the bulletins that we issued for certain

 9     persons who were wanted because criminal proceedings had been initiated

10     against them.

11        Q.   Very well.  And now I see that we are -- you are submitting these

12     documents.  Do you know what the Military Court does with them

13     afterwards?  Do they submit these bulletins to someone or what?

14        A.   Within the domain of their authority, they submit these documents

15     to check-points on roads and also to commanders of the units that these

16     persons may come from, and also to border-crossing points; that is to

17     say, all locations that could be relevant for the possible arrest of

18     these persons.

19        Q.   Let us go to the document before that, 5D02040, please.  This is

20     the record of an interview, and it shows that you were interviewing a

21     person on the premises of the Heliodrom, and the person's name is

22     Alija Lizdo.  Tell me, how did that come about?  How come you were

23     interviewing this gentleman?  Were you processing him, or is there some

24     other reason for that?

25        A.   We co-operated with the SIS all the time, and we received

Page 51527

 1     information from them that at the Heliodrom, to the best of their

 2     knowledge, there was a person who was of interest to us.  My colleague,

 3     Toni Ramljak, and I went to interview the mentioned gentleman.

 4        Q.   Tell me, when you say that he was of interest to you, that means

 5     that he could have some knowledge of certain crimes or perhaps that he

 6     was responsible, himself?

 7        A.   Yes, so that ultimately we may issue -- or, rather, file a

 8     criminal report against him.

 9        Q.   Do you remember whether this person was of interest to you?

10        A.   We interviewed the mentioned person, and we did not find any

11     elements related to a crime.  I would just like to add here that by then

12     I had already known Mr. Alija Lizdo as a journalist.  To this day, I'm on

13     very good terms with him.  I see him very often.  That is the only thing

14     I can say.

15        Q.   Tell me, after you realised that he was not of interest to you,

16     did you have any authority over that person after that, once you realised

17     that he was of no interest to you?

18        A.   No.  Our only job was to compile a record of that interview and

19     to send it to the mentioned -- or, rather, to take it to the mentioned

20     gentleman so that he could read it and sign it in his own hand.

21        Q.   Did you provide information to that effect, that he was of no

22     interest to you?

23        A.   Yes, through the daily report we referred to our work with that

24     person, and we said whether he was or was not of interest to us, from the

25     point of view of the Crime Department.

Page 51528

 1        Q.   Now we're going to skip a few more documents, and we're going to

 2     advance six documents, as it were.  P0 --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't understand why this

 4     journalist was being detained.  I can see that he was part of the ABiH

 5     since May 1992, that he was in charge of propaganda for the 1st Brigade

 6     of the ABiH.  And you questioned him relating to media matters.  Who had

 7     arrested him?  Why was he arrested?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know at that moment why he

 9     had been detained and for what reason.  Quite simply, he was at

10     Heliodrom, and I interviewed him at Heliodrom.  However, I cannot give an

11     answer as to why he was at Heliodrom and who detained him.  We only

12     received information from the SIS that he could be of interest to us from

13     the point of view of the Crime Department.  However, we did not find any

14     relevant elements, and that is why the record looks as it does.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Vidovic, I'm somewhat

16     surprised by your answer, because you conducted a very comprehensive

17     interview, over two pages, approximately.  There's a lot of information

18     in here.  The interview must have lasted quite a while, and you didn't

19     even ask yourself why this person was a prisoner?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I simply don't know why he was

21     detained.  I did not detain him.  And from the point of view of our

22     department, he was not of interest to us at all.  None of us would have

23     detained him, and I did not have any information that would lead me to

24     detain him, or anyone from my department.  So he was not of interest at

25     all from the point of view of the Crime Department.

Page 51529

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             You have 12 minutes left, Ms. Tomasegovic Tomic.

 3             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Let us move on to document P03038 [as interpreted].  That is six

 5     documents ahead.  Have you found it?  It is a report that you are sending

 6     to the Military Police Administration on the 6th of July.  We see that it

 7     was received on the 8th of July, 1993.  And this report says -- P03238 is

 8     the document that I'm looking for.  And in the one-but-last sentence,

 9     around the middle of the paragraph, it says:

10             "I have to add one more thing; namely, that during the course of

11     the day yesterday, on the premises of the SVIZ, a written report was

12     received, signed by Colonel Obradovic, pointing out that without his

13     signature, no visits or releasing of detainees from the SVIZ Heliodrom

14     could be carried out.  I seek further instructions from the Military

15     Police Administration regarding this order."

16             Do you recall this, and what can you tell us in this regard?

17        A.   This is a special report, because in our regular work, the

18     regular work we carried out on the premises of the Heliodrom, we had

19     certain duties every day; that is to say, to deal with detained soldiers

20     from the scope of our authority and to file criminal reports if there

21     were grounds for that.  Here, we have a new situation.  People from the

22     administration of the Heliodrom are suggesting to us that we turn to our

23     own administration, because as of the following day already, we would not

24     be allowed to enter the premises of the Heliodrom.  From the very next

25     day, we would not be allowed to enter the Heliodrom.  We would have to

Page 51530

 1     ask Colonel Obradovic for special permission.  By then, he was near

 2     Stolac, and that is over 40 kilometres away from Heliodrom.

 3        Q.   Tell me, did you do something at that point of time?  But please

 4     give me shorter answers because I have very little time left.

 5        A.   Through our battalion, we addressed the operations zone directly

 6     and we explained the complexity of our situation, and we asked for

 7     Colonel Obradovic -- or, rather, the operative zone to allow us to enter

 8     the premises and conduct interviews; that is to say, we, the employees of

 9     the Crime Department.

10        Q.   Tell me, did you receive such permission and did you carry out

11     your work as previously?

12        A.   Soon after that, we were allowed to enter, along with a special

13     permission that he sent the administration of the Heliodrom, that the

14     Crime Department employees could enter the Heliodrom and carry out their

15     duties every day.

16        Q.   Now I'd like us to move to P05054.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I would like to draw the attention to a mistake

18     probably in the translation.  On line 10 of the previous page, it was

19     translated that there arrived a written "report" of Mr. Obradovic, but

20     I think it was an order rather than a report, "zapovjed."

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is

22     correct, it had to do with an order.

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

24             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] P05054 is the document

25     we're looking at now.  It is a report dated the 14th of September, 1993.

Page 51531

 1     We see that it's sent to you.  We see that under number 3.

 2        Q.    And it says here:

 3             "On the 11th of September, we received information from the

 4     so-called private prison in Bijelo Polje."

 5             Please tell me whether you recall this, and do you know anything

 6     about this private prison, Bijelo Polje.

 7        A.   P050 --

 8        Q.   P05054.

 9        A.   As regards this document, I just have to add that the prison

10     warden was writing to me non-stop.  It is very important to know that he

11     was writing to me throughout his work, although this did not directly

12     pertain to me, but he was writing to me non-stop.  So he wrote to me

13     about this prison in Bijelo Polje, and I, through the command of the town

14     defence, I tried to find out what was going on, because Bijelo Polje was

15     on the front-line.  It is physically impossible to go there except in an

16     armoured vehicle that was used to transport military troops to the

17     front-line, so all the way up to the very last point that could be

18     reached, and then this armoured vehicle would be taken.  I'm sending this

19     document to Mr. Mijo Jelic, who is replying to me that this is not his

20     zone.

21             After that, I tried to go to Bijelo Polje, but I was returned

22     from the check-point, because I wished to know, in view of the fact that

23     I first heard about this in my work, this was the first time that I heard

24     of the existence of a private prison.  After I was returned by soldiers

25     from this last check-point before entering this armoured vehicle, I

Page 51532

 1     addressed the operative zone in writing, and very soon I got a response

 2     from them, stating that that was within the scope of their authority and

 3     that they would check what this was all about.  Also, I sent them this

 4     document from Mr. Bozic.

 5        Q.   Now I'd like us to move four documents ahead to document 5D042 --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a document we've seen

 7     with another witness already -- [B/C/S spoken on English channel] --

 8     actually a private prison.  You have just explained to us that you tried

 9     to discover more about -- [B/C/S spoken on English channel].

10             Let me repeat.  Witness, we have already seen this document with

11     another witness.  At the time, I was surprised to see that there was a

12     private prison.  You have just told us, by giving us a lot of detail,

13     what you actually did to try and elicit this question.

14             What I would like to know is this:  Did you send a report to

15     Valentin Coric to let him know what was going on?  Did you actually do

16     that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said a moment ago, since this

18     was a new situation as far as I was concerned, I tried to investigate.

19     And based on my sources for a day or two, I even wanted to go to the

20     location, and I told you how one could get there.  It was the front-line,

21     so if you use an APC, this is an indicator of the danger that it posed.

22     So I did what I could within my remit.  Let me repeat, I informed the

23     commander of the defence of the town, first of all.  When he said it

24     wasn't in his area, then I informed, through the battalion, the operative

25     zone, and all the reports from the battalion were sent officially, with

Page 51533

 1     the official post, to the operative zone.  I did not inform the

 2     Military Police Administration at that time because I considered that I

 3     could get all the necessary information and instructions from the

 4     operative zone because we were dealing with the front-line and combat

 5     directly.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It took you approximately three

 7     minutes to tell me that you did not send a report to Mr. Coric.  You

 8     could have told me this in a split second.  This is what I wanted to

 9     know.

10             Can one, therefore, conclude that Mr. Coric was then not aware of

11     the existence of this private prison?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not from me.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let's move ahead now several documents until we reach 5D04233,

16     the third document from the end of the binder.

17             Have you ever heard of somebody called Reuf Ajanovic?

18        A.   I have heard of Reuf Ajanovic, A-j-a-n-o-v-i-c.  It's somebody

19     who was in the Convicts Battalion, and he introduced himself as some sort

20     of internal security officer of the Convicts Battalion, a sort of SIS

21     person from the notorious battalion.

22        Q.   When you went to Heliodrom, did you see that person there?

23        A.   When we went to Heliodrom, the practice was that through the

24     prison warden, we would announce our arrival.

25        Q.   Just briefly, did you see him or not?

Page 51534

 1        A.   We saw him at Heliodrom, on the premises of the prison.

 2        Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Reuf and Mr. Praljak knew each other?

 3        A.   I saw Josip Praljak several times with Mr. Reuf Ajanovic sitting

 4     together in an office.

 5        Q.   Was there an investigation underway including Mr. Ajanovic and

 6     Mr. Praljak together?

 7        A.   Sometime in the autumn of 1993, some documents went missing from

 8     the Military Investigative Prison of Heliodrom, Remand Prison of

 9     Heliodrom, and I think that an investigation was underway investigating

10     the two men about these circumstances.

11        Q.   I have two more questions for you.  We're going to look at just

12     one document, to P03613.  Did you know that the place Otok Vitina, that

13     there was a prison there?

14        A.   I've just heard of it, but I was never there physically.

15        Q.   Do you know someone called Kresimir Tolj?

16        A.   Yes.  He worked in the Crime Department of Ljubuski and later on

17     headed the Crime Investigation Department of the Ljubuski section, like I

18     was in Mostar, so my colleague and opposite number.

19        Q.   Did you see him frequently, Mr. Tolj, and co-operate with him?

20        A.   We co-operated fairly frequently in our line of business,

21     especially after July.  So throughout October -- throughout August and

22     September we frequently co-operated.

23        Q.   Tell me, as head of the department yourself, did you have the

24     authority to appoint the warden of a prison?  And if so, did you ever do

25     that?

Page 51535

 1        A.   That was not within our remit.  We never appointed any warden of

 2     any prison, nor did we have the authority to appoint prison wardens.

 3        Q.   Now look at document -- the one in front of you, which is signed

 4     by Mr. Kresimir Tolj.  And it says:  "Re. Appointment of the head of the

 5     Military Prison Otok."  And from the document, it follows that Mr. Tolj

 6     is, in fact, appointing a man by the name of Kreso Medic.  May I have

 7     your comments on that, because you've just told us he didn't have the

 8     authority to do that?  Have you heard about this?

 9        A.   Never, I've never heard about this.  And it's an impossible

10     situation, as far as I'm concerned.  I see that it says "Military Police

11     Administration, Crime Prevention Department," and it doesn't say

12     "Ljubuski," whereas Kresimir Tolj worked in Ljubuski.  And then there's a

13     handwritten number and the letters "FK."  We didn't have any letters like

14     that, no "FK."  So I'm bewildered by this document.  It's not clear to me

15     at all.  And I'm sure that Mr. Kresimir Tolj couldn't do anything like

16     this, occupying the post that he occupied.

17        Q.   Do you know the man Kreso Medic mentioned here?

18        A.   No, I don't know who the person is.

19             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20     Thank you, sir.  That completes my examination-in-chief.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have just another

22     question for you.

23             We can see that you have addressed a number of reports to the

24     military prosecutor.  We also know that when some crimes are committed,

25     the investigating judge came to the scene.  What I wanted to know is

Page 51536

 1     whether you had any contact with the military prosecutor, the

 2     investigating judge, and the military judges.  Were these people with

 3     whom you had talks about the investigations or were these people you

 4     never saw?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can give you the following answer

 6     to that question:  In our service, we had all the telephone numbers and

 7     addresses of the persons that you mentioned, who we contacted if we

 8     needed to call them for anything, an eye-witness account or whatever.  We

 9     just contacted them in writing, but we did have a few meetings, that is

10     to say, our department, the MUP, and the representatives of the military

11     prosecutor and military investigating offices, working to uncover as many

12     crimes as possible and deal with as many criminal reports filed as

13     possible.  So some people from the courts and the Prosecutor's Office I

14     did meet at those meetings.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             Now, as far as other Defence teams are concerned, Mr. Karnavas.

17             MR. KARNAVAS:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

18     Your Honours.  Good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.

19             I do have some questions for the gentleman.  If I may begin,

20     Your Honour.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

22        Q.   Good morning, sir.  My name is Michael Karnavas and with me is

23     Ms. Suzana Tomanovic, and together we represent Dr. Jadranko Prlic.  I

24     just have a few questions, and if you could be rather brief, I would most

25     appreciate it.  There are only, I believe, four documents we will look

Page 51537

 1     at.

 2             But before we get to the documents, as I understand from

 3     listening to your testimony, there was co-operation between the military

 4     police with the civilian police concerning investigations of crimes; is

 5     that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And can I take it, then, from your answer that to some extent the

 8     civilian courts were functioning at the time?

 9        A.   They were functioning, just like the civilian police was.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, before I get to the documents, I want to ask you

11     a couple of preliminary questions.

12             When a soldier left the front-line, was he still a soldier?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When he left the front-line, and on his way home, for instance,

15     committed a crime, would he be considered a civilian or a soldier at that

16     point in time?

17        A.   To the best of my knowledge, he was at all times a soldier, so he

18     would be considered, in your case, a soldier.

19        Q.   And I take it, in that case, it would be the military police who

20     would be responsible, at least to some extent, to do the investigation.

21        A.   It was always his commander who was responsible for a soldier,

22     and the military police would be involved if a crime had been committed.

23        Q.   All right.  And I take it a commander, a commander, never

24     informed you that you were not to investigate his soldiers once they left

25     the front-line because they were civilians.

Page 51538

 1        A.   I've already repeated this.  The commander -- if his soldier

 2     committed a crime, it was the commander's duty, if he knew who the

 3     perpetrator was, to report him, to file a criminal report against him.

 4        Q.   Right.  But my question is a little more precise than that, and

 5     what I want to know is whether you were ever instructed by anyone, any

 6     commander, low, medium, or way up high at the Main Staff, that once a

 7     soldier leaves a front-line, he's no longer a soldier, he's a civilian,

 8     and therefore you need not treat him as a soldier, you need not

 9     investigate the case.

10        A.   We did not receive instructions like that, because we considered

11     him to be a soldier, always a soldier.

12        Q.   And just one last question on that.  I assume that commanders

13     were aware of that.  In other words, this is not such specialised

14     knowledge that only military police officers would be aware of that; the

15     commanders would be aware of that as well?

16        A.   I didn't understand.  What for?

17        Q.   Well, you indicated that they continued to be soldiers.  I assume

18     that the commanders knew that.

19        A.   I assume they did, yes.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, if we go to the first document, and they may not

21     be order, but there are only four.  It's 5D04362, 5D04362.  I believe

22     it's the last document in your folder, the very last one.  Have you found

23     it?

24        A.   Yes, in the English version.

25             MR. KARNAVAS:  Okay.  Usher, if we could -- there is no --

Page 51539

 1     usually, there should be a B/C/S version right after the English, but if

 2     you don't have it, that's fine.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay, okay.

 4             MR. KARNAVAS:  All right.

 5        Q.   Now, we can see that this is a document dated 26 May 1993.  We

 6     see that it's been sent to the Defence Department and as well to the

 7     Operative Zone South-East Herzegovina.  Now, I want you to first -- and

 8     we see that this is a report.

 9             Now, picking up where we left off, if we could go towards the

10     bottom of the page at least in English, where it says:

11             "At 2000 hours ..."

12             We see that:

13             "... a soldier without identity card was brought to the

14     Police Administration by members of the Police Administration security,

15     who was in a drunken state, armed with Argentina gun.  He said he was

16     from the 1st Battalion, Capljina.  I called military police and handed

17     him to them, together with the Argentinean gun number ..."

18             And so on.  Do you see that part, sir?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, would this be a normal procedure?  If a civilian police

21     officer were to detain a soldier, would they then turn him over to the

22     military police?

23        A.   Well, this came within the remit of this police station, police

24     administration, that among other things they should hand over the soldier

25     to the military police.  And this is a soldier from Capljina found in

Page 51540

 1     Mostar, if I understood you correctly.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I just wanted to make sure that this was the correct

 3     procedure.  Is that a yes or no?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Now, if we go to the next -- if we go all the way up to the text,

 6     where it says:  "At 1800 hours," we see that Puce Nikola came to the

 7     Police Administration, an employee of the civilian prison, and reported

 8     that there were two detainees in investigation with him, but they were

 9     transferred to the Heliodrom due to combat activities, from where

10     somebody let them go, and that would have been Josip Praljak.

11             Now -- and my question is:  Why would this occur?  Why would they

12     take civilian prisoners to the Heliodrom, keeping in mind that this is

13     26 May 1993?  Are you aware of that?

14        A.   Here it says some Puce Nikola, working in a civilian prison.

15     I think it's the civilian [Realtime transcript read in error "military"]

16     prison that we, in Mostar, call Celovina.  And at this point in time, the

17     26th of May, he was up at the front-line.  So that's Santic Street, where

18     heavy fighting was going on, and I think that prison was relocated

19     because of the war to Heliodrom, the entire prison was moved, because it

20     was impossible for it to function because it was right up at the

21     front-line.  The prison wall was up at the front-line.

22             MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I have to

23     correct the translation, which I believe it is important to do at this

24     stage.  On page 25, line 10, the witness said that Puce Nikola was

25     working in a civilian prison, and in the transcript it was erroneously

Page 51541

 1     recorded as "military prison," which is an important difference.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MR. KARNAVAS:

 4        Q.   And just real quickly before we leave this document, yesterday

 5     you were asked several questions about identifying, perhaps, the

 6     ethnicity of individuals.  If we look at this report and we see that

 7     there are 17 names that were injured, and can you identify whether, on

 8     this list of 17, there are any of Muslim Bosniak nationality; according

 9     to the name, that is?

10        A.   Yes, one can see that.  Number 1, a Bosniak Muslim; number 6,

11     Fedad Salkovic, Bosniak Muslim; number 16, Fuad Kadija, a Bosniak Muslim;

12     and number 17, Fatima Mujcic, a Bosniak Muslim.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now if we go to the next document, and this document

14     is 5D04152.  5D04152.  And my apologies for not having them in order.  I

15     just reorganised my cross this morning.

16             Do you have it, sir?  And you should have the B/C/S version

17     perhaps after the English.  Do you have it?

18        A.   Okay.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, I spoke to you earlier about whether the courts were

20     functioning, and you indicated that you thought that they did.  Now, I

21     want you to look at this document.  We see that this is an indictment,

22     and if we look at -- if you look at it very quickly, and you'll see a

23     number 2, for instance, the victim seems to be an Esad Hadziosmanovic,

24     and I assume he's a Bosniak Muslim from the name.  Now, from looking at

25     this document, can you tell us whether, to the best of your knowledge,

Page 51542

 1     this is what an indictment would have looked like at that time, given the

 2     situation as it existed in Mostar?

 3        A.   Looking at the indictment from the Senior Public Prosecutor's

 4     Office, I can't tell you what that should look like.  All I can say is at

 5     the beginning of 1994 I left the unit I was working in until then, went

 6     to Zagreb for military training, and I assume that this is the kind of

 7     indictment that the Senior Public Prosecutor's Office in Mostar would

 8     issue.  I assume that it's correct.

 9        Q.   Now, if we look at the name Esad Hadziosmanovic, and it talks

10     about in Mostar, and you are from Mostar, do you know this gentleman ?

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   And what about the street, where it looks like -- where it says

13     that -- where his residence is?

14        A.   The street is in West Mostar, Brace Bosnjic Street.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If we look at the next document, which is 5D04241,

16     5D04241, this is dated 20 October 1993, and we see that at the top

17     "Senior Public Prosecutor's Office, Mostar."  If you go to the last page,

18     we see that there is a station commander, Mladen Alpeza.  Do you know

19     this gentleman, by any chance, or are you familiar with the gentleman?

20        A.   I know him personally, because at the time we co-operated with

21     the Police Station of Mostar quite often.  Yes, I do know him.

22        Q.   And in looking at this document, granted as to when you left and

23     what your function was with the military police, would this confirm, at

24     least in your mind, what you were saying earlier, that the civilian

25     police was investigating as the military police was?

Page 51543

 1        A.   Yes, precisely.

 2        Q.   Now, the last document I want to look at 1D03155, but before we

 3     look at the document, itself, I need to ask you one or two questions.

 4             Now, keeping in mind that you left, I believe, in late 1993 from

 5     the military police, did there ever come a time, in 1996 and thereafter,

 6     where it became known in Bosnia-Herzegovina that arrests of suspected war

 7     criminals could not take place without prior authorisation from this

 8     particular Tribunal?

 9        A.   Can you repeat the beginning of your question, please?

10        Q.   All right.  Did there come a time in 1996 when it became known

11     that suspected war criminals, or those who were suspected of committing

12     crimes during the war, could not be arrested and indicted without the

13     international community giving its authorisation?

14        A.   Well, I don't know that.

15        Q.   All right, okay.  Did you ever hear about the rules of the

16     road --

17             MS. WEST:  Excuse me, Mr. Karnavas.

18             Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

19             I understand the question that was just asked regards procedural

20     matters after 1996, a period of time where this witness was no longer in

21     the HVO and certainly was not involved with international matters or

22     prosecution.  I understand that Mr. Karnavas is probably about to ask

23     questions about 1903155.  This witness had no authority to answer them.

24             MR. KARNAVAS:

25        Q.   Did you ever hear about the Rome Agreement and the rules of the

Page 51544

 1     road?

 2        A.   I heard of the Rome Agreement, but just as a citizen.  That's all

 3     I can tell you.  I don't know anything more about the agreement, as such.

 4        Q.   All right.  And when you say "as a citizen," you don't know any

 5     of the particulars; is that what you're telling us?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.  I've heard of the name, "Rome Agreement," but

 7     that's all.  I don't know any details of the agreement or anything like

 8     that.  I didn't know about it then, and I don't know about it now.

 9        Q.   And I take it if I were to ask you whether you heard about the

10     rules of the road, you would give me the same answer.

11        A.   Yes, approximately.

12             MR. KARNAVAS:  Thank you, sir.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

14             2D.

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Good morning to all in the

16     courtroom.  May I just have a moment, please.

17             Could the usher please take this material so that we could

18     organise our examination.

19             Once again, I would like to greet all in the courtroom.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Nozica:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, these are the documents that we will be

22     using.

23             Before I start putting questions to you, I would just like to

24     make a correction in the transcript.  My learned friend Mr. Karnavas

25     said, on page 24, in line 2, in relation to document 5D4362, obviously

Page 51545

 1     mistakenly said that this report was sent to the Defence Department.

 2     However, we see from the document that it was actually sent to the

 3     Operations Zone of South-East Herzegovina.  We can see that on the basis

 4     of the receipt stamp.  That's the only correction I had.

 5             Witness, could you please look at the first document in my

 6     binder, and that is P665.  There aren't very many documents, and it's

 7     going to be easy for us to find our way.

 8             This is an order of Mr. Bruno Stojic, dated the 26th of October,

 9     1992, which says:

10             "Pursuant to the agreement reached with the representatives of

11     the International Red Cross, the EU, and UNPROFOR monitors ..."

12             He ordered that:

13             "All prisoners of war held by the HVO be unconditionally released

14     from HVO military investigation prisons."

15             He said that this would take place on the 30th of October, 1992,

16     in the presence and through the mediation of the representatives of the

17     International Red Cross and EU and UNPROFOR monitors, from the HVO

18     prisons in Mostar, Livno, and Tomislavgrad.

19             In relation to this topic, I'm going to show you another

20     document, and then I'll put a question.

21             The next document is P677.  This is a report that

22     Mr. Valentin Coric sent to Mr. Bruno Stojic on the 31st of October, 1992.

23     It has to do with the release of prisoners on the 30th of October, and it

24     says -- or, rather, there's a reference to Mr. Stojic's order.  And could

25     we just look at the last paragraph of the document, which is a

Page 51546

 1     sublimation of everything that matters.  So --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  We can no longer hear

 3     counsel.  There are other microphones on.

 4             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Livno, Mostar and Tomislavgrad.  In the presence of the

 6     representatives of the International Red Cross and the EU and UNPROFOR

 7     monitors, it says that a total of 363 prisoners were released.  Out of

 8     them, 285 prisoners have been sent to the so-called Yugoslavia, and 78

 9     have been released and are still "on our territory."  That is what is

10     stated in the document.

11             Mr. Vidovic, do you have any knowledge to that effect, and do you

12     know that on the 30th of October, 1992, prisoners of war were

13     unconditionally released?

14        A.   Let me say the following:  This is when I started working at the

15     Crime Department of the Military Police.  I know about these

16     unconditional releases, that they did take place:  As a matter of fact, I

17     was at the Heliodrom on one day and I saw, with my very own eyes, how

18     these buses were leaving.  I did not take part in this directly, but I do

19     know that this did happen.

20        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, tell me, who were these prisoners of war?  According

21     to your information, who were they?

22        A.   These were imprisoned members of the Serb Army, the Yugoslav

23     People's Army, who were taken prisoner in the summer of 1992 by the HVO.

24        Q.   It was the TO that was fighting with the HVO in the summer of

25     1992?

Page 51547

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I assume that these were joint prisoners.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now I'm going to ask you to look at document 1D -- let me just

 5     see whether you can confirm something for me.  1D2435.  Have you found

 6     it?

 7             This is an agreement on the release and transfer of prisoners

 8     from Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it has to do with these persons that we

 9     referred to just now.  The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is sending this to

10     Minister Susak on the 2nd of October, 1992, but let us look at the first

11     page of this document.  As far as I know, you can follow, in English,

12     what it is that I'm asking you about.

13             It is obvious that the agreement was reached.  We see that on

14     page 1.  And there is a reference to the persons who were present on that

15     occasion.  The third name is Mr. Sito Coric, representing Mr. Boban.

16             We are going to skip the actual agreement, and please let us go

17     to Annex 1.  That is roughly page 6.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I'm repeating the name of the document, 1D2435.

20        A.   Mine says "10."

21        Q.   It's all right.  Have you come to the page where Annex 1 is?

22        A.   "Activities after --"

23        Q.   Sorry that the pages haven't been numbered.  There is a number at

24     the bottom of the page.  It should be 1D51-0487.

25        A.   87?

Page 51548

 1        Q.   Have you found it?  It says "List of places of detention,

 2     according to information given by detaining parties.  Since we saw from

 3     the previous report there was a reference to Mostar, Livno, and

 4     Tomislavgrad, and we see that here under number 2; right?  We see those

 5     places?  Very well.  Could you please just give us a verbal answer,

 6     because just nodding cannot be recorded in the transcript.

 7             In footnote 1, it says that all detainees from Capljina,

 8     Tomislavgrad and Livno would be transferred to the Mostar Prison --

 9             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, I would

10     like to say -- I would like to correct them.  It says that they had been

11     transferred.  It's the perfect tense.

12             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you for your correction.

13        Q.   You saw that in Mostar, that they were leaving the Heliodrom?

14        A.   I saw the buses that were leaving the Heliodrom, the buses with

15     these prisoners of war who were about to be exchanged.

16        Q.   Let us just confirm something else.  Could we please have a look

17     at Annex B.  It is two pages later.  1D51 is the page, 0490.  There is a

18     reference here to places of detention and possible routing.  There is a

19     reference to Mostar down here.  On the next page, we see a reference to

20     Tomislavgrad and Livno.

21             Finally, my question, Mr. Vidovic:  Can you confirm that just as

22     we saw in this agreement, that this agreement, indeed, was a basis for

23     the release of the prisoners whom you saw and who were released on

24     Mr. Stojic's orders?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 51549

 1        Q.   Could you now please look at another document, P619.  Have you

 2     found the document?

 3        A.   The 22nd of October, 1992?

 4        Q.   Yes.  This is a daily report of Mr. Valentin Coric for the 22nd

 5     of October, 1992.  I would be interested in paragraph 2.  I'm going to

 6     ask you about paragraph 2.  It says:

 7             "According to the order of the head of the Defence Department, on

 8     the basis of a decision made of the Presidency of the HVO, we captured

 9     the following features in town during the day:  The Post Office building,

10     the building of the MUP ..."

11             And so on.  And the end of the penultimate paragraph says:

12             "In the entire action, no one was wounded or killed.  Some people

13     were brought in by force, without fire being opened."

14             Mr. Vidovic, I remember that you started working at the

15     Crime Department sometime in the beginning of October.  Tell me, have you

16     heard of this operation?

17        A.   I did hear of this operation.  It was a security operation that

18     was basically aimed at the following.  We see a reference here to the

19     Post Office building, so these are the vital organs of the town of

20     Mostar.  If we look at the date, the 22nd of October, 1992, that would

21     roughly be the time after direct fighting against the Serb forces had

22     stopped and life was slowly returning to the town of Mostar.  Some

23     telephones had just started working.  We have had a bit of electricity by

24     then in apartments.  So I think that this was a security operation that

25     was just meant to stop certain groups from messing with the Post Office

Page 51550

 1     and other important buildings, if I can put it that way.  There is a

 2     reference here to the fact that there were no persons wounded, no

 3     fatalities, that fire was not opened.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, my understanding was that this had to do with a

 5     police action in order to secure some vital facilities.

 6        A.   Precisely.

 7        Q.   Could you please explain to Their Honours what the Post Office

 8     looked like - and that was certainly a vital facility - at the moment

 9     when the conflict was over between the HVO and the BH Army, on the one

10     side, and the Serb forces, on the other side?  What did the Post Office

11     look like?

12        A.   The Post Office and all the vital buildings and facilities in

13     Mostar had already been shelled in April, May, and June 1992.  The Post

14     Office had been shelled, and it had to be renovated; not only the Post

15     Office.  Department stores were set on fire due to the indiscriminate

16     shelling in 1992.  Also, churches were set on fire by the indiscriminate

17     shelling that took place.  People were killed all the time by

18     indiscriminate shelling.

19             I have to add here that my own father was killed in July 1992 and

20     that he was a casualty of indiscriminate shelling.

21             So I repeat, the Post Office, like all other key buildings and

22     institutions in the town of Mostar, was almost destroyed.

23        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, from the point of view of security, was

24     there a large number of people in town?  After these first clashes, was

25     there an increase in crime, and did thieves, criminals, unauthorised

Page 51551

 1     persons, break into these buildings?  I mean, I know you were wounded at

 2     the time, you were a citizen.  So to the best of your knowledge, what

 3     happened?  What was the situation like after the conflict with the Serbs

 4     in Mostar?

 5        A.   If you followed what I said yesterday carefully, you would have

 6     heard that there were these big trade centres for technical equipment

 7     that refugees ultimately moved into.  The town was full of refugees.

 8     When these people arrived, the security situation became far more complex

 9     than it would have been otherwise.

10        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Vidovic --

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a second.

12             Witness, my apologies.  It took me a while to put this question

13     to you, but you just said that your father was killed in July 1992.  Your

14     father was living in which part of Mostar at the time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yesterday, you asked me, and I told

16     you that we lived in the western part of town, in the part of town that

17     is called "Rondo."

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As far as you know,

19     did the Serbs carry on shelling the city of Mostar, and especially

20     Western Mostar, but also East Mostar, during the course of 1993?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb forces shelled Mostar

22     throughout the war, without any difference between the eastern and

23     western side.  So throughout the war, after the month of June, when they

24     withdrew with their forces from the eastern part of town.  That is to say

25     that we had this border on the Neretva.  After they withdrew from the

Page 51552

 1     plateau above Mostar, from Podvelezje, they shelled the town of Mostar

 2     all the time, indiscriminately, without taking time into account or the

 3     number of shells that had fallen.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, between

 5     January 1993 and December 1993, was there, in West Mostar, victims,

 6     Croats, that is, that fell under Serb shelling?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that was the case.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.

 9             Yesterday, you said that there were several thousands of Muslims

10     in West Mostar.  As far as you know, amongst this Muslim population in

11     West Mostar were there any victims of Serb shelling between January 1993

12     and December 1993?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot give an answer to

14     that, whether this was amongst the Muslim population only.  But I know

15     that among all of the citizens of Mostar, including the western part,

16     there were victims of the Serb artillery.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, I see

19     the time, but I just have two or three short questions in relation to

20     this document and then we can take the break.

21        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, we are going back to this now.  The Honourable Judge

22     asked you about 1993, but we're going back to October 1992.  Tell me, in

23     that period in Mostar, were there any clashes with the Army of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Are you referring to the period of this document?

Page 51553

 1        Q.   Yes, and later on for as much as you know.

 2        A.   As I said a moment ago, after the HVO, together with the

 3     Mostar Battalion, took part in the operation to liberate Mostar in

 4     mid-June 1992, we held the line facing the Serbs, the Serb enemy, and

 5     Serb Army, together on the Podvelezje Plateau.  And until the conflict

 6     broke out on the 9th of May, we held the line together facing the Serb

 7     Army; the whole length of the Mostar battle-front, which stretched from

 8     the northern entrance to town to the southern exit from town, the hills

 9     around Mostar in the eastern part of Mostar.

10        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, although you didn't expressly say that in response

11     to my question, but we can conclude that there were no clashes between

12     the HVO and the BH Army from that period right up to May, as you said?

13        A.   That's right, there were no conflicts until the 9th of May, 1993,

14     between the members of the Mostar Battalion and the HVO forces in Mostar.

15        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, just one more question on that subject.  Do you know

16     whether the HVO took part with the BH Army in this period, roughly, that

17     is to say, around October 1992, in any larger military operation against

18     the army -- or, rather, the Serb Army?

19        A.   I know of one particular operation.  I don't know what it was

20     called, but there was a military operation which was launched sometime at

21     the beginning of November 1992, I believe, in the area above Blagaj.  And

22     Blagaj is a place which is 12 kilometres away from Mostar, roughly

23     south-east of Mostar, and the object of that operation was to move the

24     front-lines of the Serb Army towards Nevesinje.

25        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, was that operation led together with the BH Army and

Page 51554

 1     the HVO; did they work together, to the best of your knowledge?

 2        A.   The Mostar Battalion and the HVO of Mostar took part together in

 3     the operation.

 4        Q.   If I tell you that it was Operation Bura, does that refresh your

 5     memory?

 6        A.   Yes, that's it, and I think it was November 1992.

 7             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll

 8     continue after the break.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have the break.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

13             [In English] You have the floor.

14             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, please take a look at the following document in the

16     binder, 5D2013.  Have you found it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, yesterday, during your evidence on page 8, lines 14

19     through 16, you spoke about Zeljko Dzidic and the information that you

20     had, that he was suspended at some time in April 1993.  Can you confirm

21     that?

22        A.   Yes, he was suspended because of a row he had with some soldiers

23     from Siroki Brijeg.

24        Q.   We have this document before us.  It's entitled "Conclusion."

25     HVO of the municipality of Siroki Brijeg, at its meeting dated

Page 51555

 1     23 April 1993, discussed the letter received from the Command of the

 2     Siroki Brijeg Battalion, and, with relation to that, adopted the

 3     conclusion that the HVO of Siroki Brijeg condemns the brutal and cruel

 4     act of the military police toward the soldiers of the Siroki Brijeg

 5     Battalion, which happened on the 15th of April.

 6             In item 2, they request the competent bodies to suspend Commander

 7     Zeljko Dzidic of the military police, and the launching of an official

 8     investigation in order to clarify this incident, and they request that

 9     the competent authorities act urgently and report on what has been done.

10             Mr. Vidovic, is that the incident that you mentioned which

11     happened between Zeljko Dzidic and the Siroki Brijeg Battalion?

12        A.   Yes, that is this very incident.

13        Q.   I'll take you back to your job now within the

14     Crime Prevention Department in Mostar.  And please take a look at

15     document 5D5022.  That's the following document.

16             This is a criminal report drafted by your department, dated the

17     21st of August, 1993, against Jeton Berisa.  He was also a member of the

18     Convicts Battalion Krusko, and he is in detention, which follows from the

19     information below his name.  The second person's name is Drazenko Farc.

20     There is a description of the offence.  These two persons allegedly went

21     to the apartment of one Ziga - that's his nickname - of Muslim ethnicity

22     in order to steal some objects from that apartment.  The incident

23     happened in the night of 12 to 13 August 1993.  You qualified this

24     offence as violating a private home, the privacy of the home.

25             Can you remember this incident, and did your section work on this

Page 51556

 1     case?

 2        A.   Yes, this is a document of our section.  This incident happened,

 3     and we processed it in our section.

 4        Q.   Please take a look at the following document --

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm a bit surprised that this should be the

 6     incident which prompted the letter of Siroki Brijeg, because in that

 7     letter they speak of cruel behaviour, and breaking into a house is

 8     certainly against the law and all, but it is not exactly a brutal and

 9     cruel act.  So, Witness, can you explain this discrepancy or can you tell

10     me what I misunderstood?

11             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're

12     referring to a different document.  This document of Siroki Brijeg is

13     totally unrelated to the document in which breaking and entering is

14     mentioned.  My learned friend has passed on to another topic, and this

15     other document, which is four months older, has nothing to do with it.

16     These are two different things.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you, I'm sorry.

18             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you for this intervention,

19     Ms. Tomasegovic.  I was at a loss because I never saw the words "cruel

20     act" in this document.

21        Q.   Now, please take a look at document P6873.

22             Mr. Vidovic, today and yesterday you spoke extensively about the

23     District Military Prosecutor's Office, the contacts you had with them,

24     and co-operation, and how your section filed criminal reports with them.

25     This is a letter of the district military prosecutor, dated the 25th of

Page 51557

 1     November, 1993.  It was sent to the Ministry of Justice and Public

 2     Administration, and it says:

 3             "Following your request," number so-and-so, "we submit the

 4     following information:

 5             "In the period from the 16th of June, 1993, through 24 November

 6     1993, the Office of the Prosecutor received 539 reports against members

 7     of the MOS as follows:"

 8             And then some names are mentioned.  I don't believe that it is

 9     necessary to mention anybody's name in open session.  But take a look at

10     this document, since this is a very relevant period from 16 June

11     until 24 November 1993.  Most of this time, you were in the Crime

12     Prevention Section.  Can you remember, based on this document, that these

13     were criminal reports filed by your section?

14        A.   On the first two pages of this document, I recognise numerous

15     persons against who we filed criminal requests.  That's only about pages

16     1 and 2.  And if I were to review the rest, I believe I would find a

17     significant number of people on whom we had criminal files.  As far as

18     I can tell, this is in alphabetical order.

19        Q.   Yes, it's in alphabetical order, but the alphabet was not fully

20     complied with.  But I'm satisfied with your answer anyway.  Let's move

21     on.

22             Mr. Vidovic --

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  One short question, Witness.

24             Looking at these names in a superficial way, I get the impression

25     that most of them are Muslim names.  Am I wrong again?

Page 51558

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have looked at the

 4     list of these 539 -- I believe it's 539 names.  Seemingly, the prosecutor

 5     withdrew one, Goran Jelavic, number 56.  You, as a legal expert, I would

 6     like to know whether, in your view, these 539 people fell under the

 7     authority of the prosecutor regarding any potential detention.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know under whose authority

 9     they were with regard to detention.  But as you're asking me about the

10     remit of the Public Prosecutor's Office, if they were at Heliodrom as

11     perpetrators of crimes, then the answer is yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that if these

13     539 people were suspected of a criminal offence, in that case they fall

14     under the authority of the prosecutor; is that right?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Witness, in that case, would there not have to

17     be an order of arrest, an arrest warrant, which should ultimately,

18     I think, emanate from a judicial authority?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat?  I haven't

20     fully understood the question.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  I was a bit fast.

22             You say they were detained -- yes, detained under the authority

23     of the public prosecutor.  My question is:  Did the public prosecutor

24     alone have the authority to send people to detention or should there not

25     be an arrest warrant which is issued by a judicial authority; the

Page 51559

 1     Military District Court, probably?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is about the

 3     District Military Prosecutor's Office, so we can assume that these

 4     were -- these were military persons, military staff, and criminal reports

 5     were filed against them for criminal offences.  That's the only thing

 6     I can tell, and I wouldn't want to speculate about any other aspects.

 7     This is only about criminal reports filed.

 8             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Exactly, exactly.  And to me, there must be a

 9     link between a criminal report filed and a title for detention.

10     Normally, in criminal procedure, the fact that you file a criminal report

11     against a suspect is not enough to put him in prison, but maybe it was

12     different under the law applied here.  But that I would like to know.

13     Maybe you don't know.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but if we take a look at the

15     lists, if we skim through them, at the moment when this letter was being

16     compiled -- or, rather, the fact that it was compiled doesn't prove that

17     these people were all put in detention, because there are names of people

18     here who were not detained.  So this is not a list of people who were

19     detained.  It's a list of people against whom criminal reports were filed

20     for various offences, criminal offences.

21             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.  That clarifies the matter.

22             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, let us clarify a bit.  The first question of

24     Judge Trechsel was whether this is mostly about Muslims.  Let us return

25     to page 1.  And on page 1, we can read that these are members of the MOS;

Page 51560

 1     is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Well, so there's no doubt about that.  And then a criminal report

 4     can be filed against a person who you cannot arrest because that

 5     person -- you can't get to that person?

 6        A.   That's what I want to say.  And for -- out of respect toward the

 7     deceased, the person under number 1 was a member of the ABiH, and a

 8     criminal report was filed against him in his absence.

 9        Q.   Take a look at the names under 35 and 36 on page 2.  We don't

10     need to mention the names.  Under 35, you see a person against whom a

11     criminal report was filed, and that person is still not arrested; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Under 36, there is a person against whom a criminal report was

14     filed for war crimes, and do you know that he was arrested only recently

15     for crimes committed in Trusina?

16        A.   Yes, I learned from the media that this person was arrested for

17     the crimes committed in Trusina and that he is, I believe, in the prison

18     of Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Let us be completely clear.  This is a list of criminal reports,

20     but not a list of detained persons?

21        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

22        Q.   All right.  Mr. Vidovic, in the examination-in-chief you spoke a

23     lot about criminal reports against unknown perpetrators.  You said that

24     to you these cases were not closed until you found the perpetrators.

25     Tell me, when a prosecutor received such a report, was he duty-bound to

Page 51561

 1     act based on that report against unknown perpetrators?

 2        A.   Upon reception of a criminal report against an unknown

 3     perpetrator, or NN, the public prosecutor was duty-bound to do everything

 4     from the domain of that criminal report, send out letters, request

 5     information from the authorities in charge, and do everything to identify

 6     the perpetrator.  I also said yesterday that we, too, in going about our

 7     work and working on other cases, found new information that would have to

 8     do with another case, that NN case, and it wasn't such a rare occasion.

 9     So these NN cases were not closed for us ever.

10        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, could you tell the Bench that there was a large

11     number of cases against NN perpetrators?

12        A.   Yes, there was a very large number of cases involving NN

13     perpetrators.

14        Q.   You explained to the Bench the conditions under which you worked

15     in Mostar in 1993.  Let us not repeat all the details.  These conditions,

16     many soldiers passing through, coming and going, had that -- did that

17     have a direct impact on your inability to find the perpetrator of a

18     criminal offence within a reasonable time-period?

19        A.   Yes.  Well, these wartime conditions and our poor technical

20     equipment certainly affected that.  But, on the other hand, we had a

21     strong will to work and be efficient, and the result was what you have

22     outlined.

23        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, I will now ask you, as a citizen of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you know that at this moment, as we speak, there

25     is a number of criminal offences in your town, Mostar, or in Sarajevo,

Page 51562

 1     terrorist attacks and the like, in which cases the perpetrators have not

 2     been found for years?

 3        A.   You are completely right.  It's just as you said.  Even today, a

 4     large number of criminal offences still involves unknown perpetrators,

 5     not only in Mostar but all over Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I can speak

 6     about that as a citizen only, because I haven't been with the police for

 7     quite some time.

 8        Q.   Yes, I'm asking you as a citizen, because you also know that a

 9     number of international organisations provided assistance to the

10     judiciary and the law enforcement agencies so that now they have modern

11     equipment, and a register of citizens and their IDs, so that even today,

12     under excellent conditions, it still happens that the perpetrators of

13     some serious crimes remain undiscovered for years; is that true?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, let's now -- well, let's see what happened to cases

16     which you sent to the military prosecutor and on the basis of which

17     criminal procedure was initiated.

18             I'm going to show you three documents now which are going to show

19     that they continued to act in those cases even when the military courts

20     and Military Prosecutor's Offices ceased to function.  So look at 5D5032

21     now, please.  Have you found the document?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you see the document, the minutes, during the proofing

24     session, this record?  I'm asking you that because, if need be, we can

25     take a little time to look through it.  Do you agree?

Page 51563

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   These are the records written by the Military Court in Mostar,

 3     dated the 31st of July, 1995, and it says it has to do with the transfer

 4     of cases, the archive and documents, between the Military Court in Mostar

 5     and the lower court in Siroki Brijeg.

 6             Now, before that, let's establish some significant aspects of

 7     this.  Although it's clear from count 42 of the indictment, but can you

 8     confirm that the Washington Agreement was signed in March?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Vidovic, can you also confirm that in the

11     Washington Agreement, which regulated organs within Bosnia-Herzegovina,

12     that the judiciary system was set up, from the Supreme Court of the

13     Federation down to the line to the lower courts; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, after the signing of the Washington Agreement, in the

16     preamble of this document, the military prosecutor says that he is

17     handing over these cases to the basic court or lower court in

18     Siroki Brijeg because that's the period when the military courts ceased

19     to operate.  Now, with this transference to Siroki Brijeg, and as we have

20     three such documents, we'll take a look at what is being handed over.

21     Uncompleted cases, that is number 1.  Then we have uncompleted K cases,

22     criminal cases.  Then on page 2, completed and archived cases.  And then

23     it says "archived K cases," now I'm in 1992, those which had the force of

24     law.  And we see, in 1993, that this did exist, but can you confirm that

25     the high prosecutor in Mostar was transferring to the lower court in

Page 51564

 1     Siroki Brijeg only those cases according to which the Siroki Brijeg lower

 2     court was in charge of?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Then we come to 1995, 1992, and page 3 says that cases completed

 5     but not archived K cases, criminal cases, which means these are ones

 6     where the court passed judgement but did not archive them because some

 7     procedure was still lacking, and finally we see that Ivan Krstic signed,

 8     but the Siroki Brijeg court representative did not sign.  And then we

 9     have at the bottom that the document was made in three copies.  I'm going

10     to show you three such records, and then I'm going to ask you my

11     question.

12             Look at 5D5024 now, please.  The date's the same, and the same

13     signatory on behalf of the Military Court in Mostar, because -- but here

14     the cases are turned over to the Military Court in Capljina; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now move on to the next document, please, which is probably more

18     interesting, and that is 5D5027.  These are the minutes about the

19     transference of cases, the Military Court in Mostar to the basic court or

20     lower court in Mostar.  It is being transferred by Ivan Kristic.  I think

21     he's Kristic, but it says "Krstic" here, president of the Military Court

22     in Mostar.  And let's see what he handed over:  Incomplete cases,

23     ongoing.  There are none in 1992.  In 1993, they were K cases, criminal

24     cases, and here we have a large number of them from 1993 and 1994.  On

25     page 2, under "2," we have unfinished investigation cases, KI cases,

Page 51565

 1     where investigations were launched.  Under "3," we have KI and KV, and

 2     then we have completed cases that were archived as well, and then K cases

 3     from 1992.  And look at that list there, mostly in 1993.  We have a long

 4     list, and also in 1994.  But I'm going to stay with 1993 because you

 5     testified here and said that a large number of criminal reports, on the

 6     basis of which indictments were raised, that judgements were made in

 7     1993, that they were filed in 1993; is that right, Witness?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Then we come to 1994, and under "3" which is page 4, it says

10     completed or finalised, but not archived K criminal records.  And then

11     look at page 5, 1993.  We have almost one and a half pages of the

12     criminal cases, ones which you mostly worked on and your department; is

13     that right, Witness?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, from these records, it follows that the cases that

16     you worked on, and ones in which indictments were raised and judgements

17     made, on the 31st of July, 1995, were being handed over to the Municipal

18     Court in Mostar, Siroki Brijeg, and Capljina for further processing.  Is

19     that what one can conclude from these documents?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, do you know that at these courts, the ones that were

22     established following the Washington Agreement, and later on the

23     Dayton Accords, that prosecutors worked there, and judges, of all

24     ethnicity, both Croats and Bosniaks and Serbs and others?  Do you know

25     about that?

Page 51566

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the Trial Chamber if

 3     we could move into private session for a few moments, please.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 51567

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

25     you.

Page 51568

 1             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  There's

 2     an error in the transcript.  On page 52, line 5, the witness said "he's

 3     my neighbour," not "he's my name."  It should be "he's a neighbour of

 4     mine."  That's what the witness said.

 5             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, we saw, from the documents that I showed you and the

 7     names that we have now recalled of persons either working in the court

 8     still or used to work in the court, so some are still working, others

 9     have left, that they were Muslims.  Now, this means, Mr. Vidovic, that

10     the cases that you transferred -- or, rather, the president of the court

11     in your name transferred, that work was continued on them -- these people

12     could still work on them after the Washington Agreements and

13     Dayton Accords; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, we're interested in two cantons in particular here, and can

16     you confirm, on the basis of your general knowledge, that the situation

17     was the same in Travnik, in the Cantonal Court of Travnik, Travnik

18     proper, and all the municipal courts that belonged to the Travnik region?

19     Did they also carry on working after Washington and Dayton, that is to

20     say, the members of all three nations/ethnicities in the judiciary, and

21     are they still working?

22        A.   I think so, yes.

23        Q.   Now my final question, Mr. Vidovic.  You told us, when asked by

24     Mr. Tomasegovic when she showed you a document, you told us that the

25     person, according to that indictment, to the best of your recollections,

Page 51569

 1     is still in prison today and serving the sentence they were sentenced to?

 2        A.   Who do you mean, Ivan Bakovic, Ruda?  Yes, yes, the

 3     Tomislavgrad/Mokronoge crime.

 4        Q.   Thank you for reminding me Mr. Vidovic.  I would have to search

 5     for the name in my papers.  I did make a note of it, but I didn't have it

 6     in front of me.  Does that mean, Mr. Vidovic, that after the signing of

 7     the Washington and Dayton Agreements, the BH Federation and

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina accepted and took over all the cases and judgements

 9     made by judges in the HZ-HB?

10             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

11             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vidovic.  I have no

12     further questions.

13             Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question --

15             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  I think

16     this question is very important, but the answer wasn't recorded in the

17     transcript.

18        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'll ask you the

19     question again.  I asked you whether the judgements passed by the HZ-HB,

20     after the Washington and Dayton Agreements, were they recognised by

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina and honoured by Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Federation

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and your answer was, Yes?  Can you confirm that?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise for that,

25     Your Honours.

Page 51570

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Vidovic, regarding the last

 2     document, 5D5027, which is a report from the prosecutor, sending all the

 3     files to the civilian authority, I have noted, by looking at the year

 4     1993, which is the year that is of interest to me, regarding cases that

 5     have been filed and completed, as well as cases which have not been

 6     completed -- or, rather, cases that have been completed, but

 7     unfiled - the former is in paragraph 2 and the latter are in

 8     paragraph 3 - all those files have a K letter attached to them.  And I

 9     added up all these files.  In the completed files and filed cases, we

10     have 362, and for the uncompleted cases, or, rather, unfiled, we have 246

11     [as interpreted].  When you add them up, you come to 1.208 K files.  So I

12     repeat.  For the files of paragraph 2, there are exactly 362.  And for

13     the files in paragraph 3, in total we have 846.  When we add them up, we

14     have in total 1.208 files.  So, Witness, does that mean that during 1993,

15     the military courts have tried 1.208 cases regarding criminal offences?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the beginning you

17     said that this was a report from the military prosecutor.  It is not from

18     the Military Court and the minutes and record.  Now, to answer your

19     question, if this has been listed here as it says here, there's only one

20     thing that can mean; that it was done as you have just said.  I've never

21     seen this document before.  I'm looking at it for the first time now, and

22     it's not really my area, so I can't tell you more than that.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.

25     Although I finished, I think it would be a good idea to put another

Page 51571

 1     question in relation to the witness's knowledge.  I'm still within the

 2     limits of my time.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, with regard to these cases, were indictments issued

 4     and judgements passed in many cases against several persons?  We are

 5     talking here about actual cases, not persons who were ultimately

 6     convicted, not the number of persons who were convicted.  Do you know

 7     that there were several accused within one case?

 8        A.   We saw that yesterday, and we see that today.  This number does

 9     not mean that it has to do with one person only.  It has to do with a

10     large number of people.

11        Q.   The numbers that were added up by His Honour Judge Antonetti only

12     have to do with Mostar, isn't that right, because he showed you a

13     document where the Military Court is referring cases to the

14     Municipal Court in Mostar?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no

17     further questions.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             3D.

20             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21             I would like to ask for the usher's assistance so we could have

22     these documents distributed, please.  I'm not sure whether I will

23     actually get to all of these documents.  I think I have about 20 minutes,

24     and I have some questions before that, so we'll see what we can do.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kovacic:

Page 51572

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Vidovic.

 2        A.   Good day.

 3        Q.   My name is Bozidar Kovacic --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic, you have actually

 5     18 minutes, not 20.

 6             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I wanted to give a round

 7     figure.  I'm not as precise as you are.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, my name is Bozidar Kovacic, and together with my

 9     colleague, Ms. Nika Pinter, I represent General Praljak, so I would like

10     to put a few questions to you.  First of all, let me, in part, continue

11     along the lines of the questions previously put by my colleagues.

12             On the basis of everything we've heard, especially during the

13     cross-examination, is it correct that apart from the military police of

14     the HVO that you discussed extensively, and the civilian police in the

15     area of HZ-HB that you also mentioned, there was a police organisation

16     that was a state police organisation with the same task of uncovering

17     perpetrators in that territory in 1992/1993?  So my question is:  Are you

18     the only two police forces that were in charge of doing that?

19        A.   In addition to ourselves, the SIS and the Military Intelligence

20     Service, VOS, also worked on the uncovering of crimes.

21        Q.   Very well, thank you.  But these two services that you mentioned

22     just now are also organisations that work within the Croatian Community

23     of Herceg-Bosna?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or let me say the authorities

Page 51573

 1     from Sarajevo, did they establish any police force for carrying out

 2     police work, either for the military or civilian sector, after the JNA

 3     aggression against Bosnia started?

 4        A.   As far as Sarajevo is concerned and the state of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the establishment of its authority there, I don't

 6     have any major knowledge in this regard.  I worked as a member of the

 7     HVO.

 8        Q.   Witness, please follow my question carefully.  In the area where

 9     you worked and where you live - this is a very simple question - we've

10     mentioned the civilian and military police, and then you mentioned the

11     SIS, et cetera.  Was there any other police organisation, if I can call

12     it that, that Sarajevo, as the government, as the capital of the state,

13     organised to prosecute criminals, or are you the only organisation

14     dealing with that?

15        A.   That's what I wanted to say by way of a conclusion.  I worked in

16     the HVO, and we --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Coric.

18             THE ACCUSED CORIC: [Interpretation] I think that with regard to

19     this question, the period of time should be defined, the period defined

20     that it refers to, when the police functioned and which one.  The

21     time-period should be specified.  One would be up until the 9th of May

22     and, say, another period would be after the 9th of May.  And then the

23     witness will be able to answer.

24             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank Mr. Coric for

25     his suggestion.  I will get to that, but my first question was whether

Page 51574

 1     the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina had ensured any police whatsoever.  That

 2     is quite clear, and the witness had just started answering that question.

 3     And then I'm going to ask whether the situation was the same throughout.

 4     Thank you.

 5        Q.   So, Witness, could you please answer?

 6        A.   This is the third time that I'm trying to answer.

 7             I worked in the military police, and the military police of the

 8     HVO, the Crime Department and the Ministry of the Interior were the only

 9     two services that, at that period of time, dealt with crime in the zone

10     where I worked and lived.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  And just one more question in relation to

12     that so that everyone would be clear on it.  Had you not been doing that

13     work - when I say "you," I mean the military police, the civilian police,

14     and these other organs of the HZ-HB that you referred to - would anyone

15     else be there to carry out that work or would there be total chaos and

16     lack of order?

17        A.   I can say with certainty that the latter would prevail, total

18     chaos and lack of order, had it not been for us.

19        Q.   Thank you very much, Witness.  I'm not going to pursue the matter

20     further, because I think it is correct.  I'm not interested in my new

21     details.  If Mr. Coric would like that to be dealt with, they can do it

22     in redirect.

23             My next question:  In addition to all the details that you refer

24     to, in terms of criminal proceedings, the powers of the civilian police,

25     military police, the Prosecutor's Office, the investigating judge, about

Page 51575

 1     your own line of responsibility within the HVO, so you spoke with the

 2     operative zone and you said that the military police works in battalions,

 3     and you told us what your links were with the administration, in addition

 4     to that I'm going to put a very simple question to you so that you can

 5     tell us something in that regard.  It's a hypothetical question.

 6             A commander of an HVO brigade commits a crime.  Say he kills a

 7     person in front of everyone.  Who arrests him?

 8        A.   He is arrested by the brigade military police.  That is within

 9     their authority.

10        Q.   Are you sure that it's the brigade military police, or is it any

11     organ of the military police?

12        A.   Every brigade had its own brigade military police.

13        Q.   Very well, thank you.  Tell me, now -- we are dealing with this

14     hypothetical killing, and it has to be dealt with.  An on-site

15     investigation should be carried out, the forensics and so on.  Who will

16     do that?

17        A.   In that case, it's the Crime Department of the Military Police

18     that gets involved.

19        Q.   Correct.  And, finally, who is going to file a criminal report

20     with the Prosecutor's Office?

21        A.   The Crime Department of the Military Police.

22        Q.   Very well, thank you.  Tell me -- for a considerable part of the

23     day yesterday and today, you spoke about different documents and your

24     work in this connection.  I am actually looking at something you said

25     yesterday.  Well, never mind.  Let us not go into all this detail.  Let's

Page 51576

 1     keep it simple.

 2             You and your colleague from the crime police, you are walking

 3     along a road and you see that a crime was committed.  Say somebody is

 4     setting a house on fire or someone just killed a person.  So I'm talking

 5     about serious crimes.  At that moment, do you act ex officio or do you

 6     need instructions or approval from someone so that you could act?

 7        A.   We act ex officio within our official duty because that is our

 8     task.

 9        Q.   Very well.  So all the investigations that you carried out and

10     all the criminal reports that you filed, and you -- and we see that you

11     managed to do quite a bit of work there, did you do all of that on the

12     basis of some initiative or some request or some order from the commander

13     of the operative zone?

14        A.   As I said yesterday, in order for our work to be carried out at

15     all, we needed to have knowledge of a crime.  We received information

16     from citizens, commanders of units, and also, as we've seen, in

17     co-operation with the Ministry of the Interior.

18        Q.   Very well, thank you.  So can I put it in simpler terms; namely:

19     Information concerning the commission of a crime and information that

20     helped you get to the perpetrator of any crime, you would try to get that

21     from any source?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now move on to another topic.

24             Yesterday, you said something about contacts with the brigade

25     police.  It is on page 78, in line 10 of the transcript.  And a few

Page 51577

 1     moments ago, you mentioned this example of the arrest of the commander,

 2     that it would be the brigade police that would carry out that work.  I

 3     would now like to ask --

 4             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

 5     I'm going to object in advance so that I don't have to be on my feet all

 6     the time.

 7             Yesterday, in direct examination, I asked the witness whether he

 8     was familiar with the establishment of the military police and whether he

 9     was familiar with the chain of command in the military police.  He

10     explicitly answered that he knew what had to do with his department and

11     how orders were sent within his department.  If -- well, the witness said

12     now, as far as the remainder of the establishment of the military police,

13     he is not familiar with that and he doesn't know who issued orders to

14     who.  So now I would like to ask that if my colleague wants to deal with

15     that matter, I see that he prepared documents for the brigade military

16     police and other relevant documents, could he please tell me what basis

17     he has for that, how he laid the foundation for that.  This has nothing

18     to do with it, and it cannot be aimed at impeaching the witness, because

19     the witness, himself, said at the very outset that he knew nothing about

20     this topic.  Thank you.

21             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I respond now?

22             I remember full well the answer that my colleague referred to,

23     and I even wrote it down.  It was page 11, line 18 yesterday.  However,

24     in spite of that answer, yesterday, on page 78, in line 10, the witness

25     said, in response to my colleague's question, that that was a record

Page 51578

 1     concerning an on-site investigation that was carried out by the brigade

 2     military police from Gornji Vakuf, and he specifically referred to a

 3     particular event and what happened.  Also, a few moments ago, as you

 4     heard, in relation to my hypothetical question as to who would arrest the

 5     commander of a brigade if he committed a crime, the witness said the

 6     brigade military police.  That is why I wish to put a few questions, and

 7     then, if necessary, I'm going to put other matters to the witness.

 8        Q.   So, Witness, as you said yourself yesterday, you are not familiar

 9     with the details of the establishment of the military police.  But in

10     spite of that, the fact that you had contacts with the platoon of the

11     military police in the brigade is also a fact, isn't it?

12        A.   In part, yes.

13        Q.   I'm asking you whether you know, and now you can tell me whether

14     you do know or whether you do not know.  So do you know that the platoon

15     of the military police that existed within every brigade, and that is

16     referred to in documents, and also people, when they talked about it,

17     they referred to it as the brigade military police, do you know of that

18     platoon having specific tasks, defined tasks, as the platoon within the

19     brigade?

20        A.   I don't know, and I wouldn't want to go into that, what the

21     platoon of the military police within the brigade did.  That was not my

22     own task.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Nevertheless, since you are a lawyer, since you

24     worked in the military police, and since you had contacts with the

25     brigade military police, I'm going to ask you to look at this first

Page 51579

 1     document that I gave you, P04922.  In order to provide information to

 2     all, may I say that this is already an exhibit.

 3             Could you please have a look at the document.  Unfortunately, in

 4     the date there is no mention to the year.  It just says the 10th of

 5     September, but we don't know what year.  I believe it is from 1993.  But

 6     if it is from 1992, yet again we're dealing with the same document.

 7             I would like to draw your attention to the first sentence in this

 8     text, and then I'm going to ask you the following.  The first sentence

 9     says:

10             "The delimitation of the field of competence within the military

11     police," I underline that word, "within the military police," "the

12     brigade military police is authorised:"

13             And then the following are enumerated:  Number 1, to secure

14     barracks and commands; 2, military transports for the brigade; 3, enter

15     into the front-line in the brigade's zone of responsibility; and, 4, the

16     taking into custody and detention of individuals for the brigade.

17             If you were an officer in the brigade military police, and given

18     your level of training and education, would you understand this

19     definition of what your task actually involved?

20        A.   There is no heading, there is no year, this document is lacking,

21     so it looks to me like some kind of an instruction that the

22     Military Police Administration from Ljubuski is providing to a brigade or

23     to all brigades with a view to the better establishment and work of the

24     military police.  There is something I have to add to that; namely, that

25     the Military Police Administration gave administrative instructions on

Page 51580

 1     several occasions that had to do with the work of the military police.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That's interesting, but I don't have the luxury of

 3     time to carry on with that.

 4             Now, you didn't see the title, but it says, "Extract from

 5     Instructions on the Work of ..."  It does say that.  So judging by the

 6     style, you gave us the right description.  And as everybody can see, it

 7     was signed by the chief, Valentin Coric.  But let's go back to what we

 8     were discussing earlier on.

 9             From the tasks -- or, rather, brigade military police platoon

10     described here, there's nothing about the kind of job you did, crime

11     investigation, criminal processing, and so on.  So looking at this

12     document, I want to ask you --

13             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

14     The witness has answered the question and said that he doesn't know.

15     Now, what does counsel want?  Does he want the witness to read something

16     that we can all read and we all know about or are we turning this witness

17     into an expert, whether military or legal, I don't know; but he's a fact

18     witness, he said what he knows during the examination-in-chief.  He said

19     he doesn't know the rules, regulations, and so on, so asking, Do you have

20     the experience that the brigade military police did such and such, did

21     you meet such and such, he can answer that.  But to have rules and

22     regulations read out to him, which he knows nothing about, I object to

23     that.  There's no sense in that.  We can all read it.  And having studied

24     law, he worked exclusively as a military policeman for even less than one

25     year, as we can see from his CV, so not before that, nor after that, did

Page 51581

 1     he deal in any aspects of the law.  He's in the field of catering, and

 2     he's being called here as a fact witness to tell us what he knew about

 3     the period when he was working as a crime investigation policeman.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We don't know whether this

 5     document is dated 1992 or 1993.  I can see that on the list of

 6     addressees, there is a 3rd, 6th, 7th and 8th Battalion.  This is

 7     mentioned.  This has also been sent to the 5th Battalion.  This has been

 8     handwritten.  The 3rd, 5th -- every time, I need to look at the

 9     transcript.  It's difficult.  I said 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th

10     Battalion.

11             So, Witness, this document was sent to the 5th Battalion.  Were

12     you aware of this document or not?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking at this document for

14     the first time today, and everything I said about it, I said a moment

15     ago, and I would like to stay with that.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document itself, there's

17     a small sentence which says that the military police is unique and that

18     there is a connection with the battalions and the companies.  What do you

19     think of this?  It doesn't go beyond your field of competence, does it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Crime Department, I was also

21     within the Battalion of the Military Police, as a member of the

22     Crime Department.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic.

24             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Now, Witness, as we have no date on the document, but bearing in

Page 51582

 1     mind what His Honour the Judge has just put to you, and that it was sent

 2     to the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th Battalion, can you tell us what year it is?

 3     What year are we dealing with?

 4        A.   Well, it was added in handwriting, the names of the battalion,

 5     but I don't want to speculate.

 6        Q.   Witness, I'm not asking you to speculate.  All right, I'll ask

 7     you the question differently.

 8             This is an exhibit already, so we don't need to question the

 9     authenticity of it.  But it says a 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th Battalions here.

10     In 1992, were there eight battalions?  Just say, Yes, or, No.

11        A.   Well, I can't answer that way, because we have the 3rd MP

12     Battalion and 5th Battalion, whereas until the 1st of July, I was in the

13     3rd Battalion and after the 1st of July, I was the 5th Battalion; 1993,

14     that is.  The 1st of July, the 3rd MP Battalion became the 5th MP

15     Battalion, so that this addition in handwriting is not clear to me.

16        Q.   Well, you either didn't understand my question or you don't want

17     to understand it, but let me go on.  The 7th and 8th Battalions -- in

18     1992, were there eight battalions?  Let's put it that way.

19        A.   Certainly not in 1992.

20        Q.   And what about after 1992, when there was a reorganisation; were

21     there eight battalions?

22        A.   To the best of my knowledge, yes, there were.

23        Q.   All right.  We could have settled that a while ago.  But let's

24     have a look at one more document now, or, rather, let me go back to my

25     question before my colleague interrupted me.  I didn't receive an answer

Page 51583

 1     to my question, and the question was this:  A MP platoon, as described

 2     here in what we read out, it doesn't say anything about work in

 3     disciplinary matters, uncovering crimes, and so on, so do you stand by

 4     what you said, that the platoon deals with these legal and disciplinary

 5     things, offences?  So for the crime part, the platoon -- the criminal

 6     investigation would ask for your department to do that?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 8             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?  I have an

 9     objection.

10             We're all having trouble with our LiveNote in the courtroom

11     today, and I can't look at the document, open the document.  But can we

12     go back to the first page?  Can we have the first page on our screens,

13     because in the first paragraph, and I think I know this document well,

14     that instructions are given as to what the brigade police does, which

15     means apprehension and arrest for the brigade, and I think that is

16     clearly stated and answers the question of what counsel is asking the

17     witness now.  And that excerpt was quoted by my colleague in the

18     transcript, that that, too, was the work of the brigade police.

19             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I see no grounds for that

20     intervention, because I read out very carefully all the authority.  But

21     I've just asked the witness a different question, and I think, Witness,

22     you answered in the affirmative, that hypothetical question of ours.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have no time left.  You

24     need to finish.

25             MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Well, I would have finished a long

Page 51584

 1     time ago had I not been interrupted that frequently, because I have to go

 2     back to the same question.  And when you have 18 minutes, that's

 3     impossible.  But if I may be allowed to complete this question of mine.

 4     I don't know whether the witness understood the question, whether I was

 5     given an answer, but my question is as follows:

 6        Q.   Hypothetically speaking, in the hypothetical case, the brigade

 7     police, the case when the commander committed a crime, whether he would

 8     be arrested by them, so for the more qualified work they would contact

 9     you, I mean, the Crime Investigation Department in the battalion; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So that is the only work in the crime work undertaken by the

13     brigade police, just the arrest, apprehension and arrest; that's all they

14     do; is that correct?

15        A.   Well, if we can call it crime work.  The brigade military police

16     is duty-bound to secure the crime scene, secure the traces, apprehend and

17     arrest the perpetrator, if they are known, and then inform the

18     Crime Investigation Department, which then continues the work.

19             MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, that's what I wanted to know.

20             Your Honours, that completes my cross-examination.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a follow-up

22     question for you.  I'm beginning to see things more clearly, but I would

23     like to see things even more clearly than that by asking you a basic

24     question.

25             Let me make an assumption.  Let's assume that a soldier goes

Page 51585

 1     home and discovers that his wife is with a lover.  He kills the lover and

 2     his wife.  Who has authority over this, the civilian prosecutor or the

 3     military prosecutor?  This is a crime of passion.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just repeat the beginning of what

 5     you said.  Is he a soldier, is the person a soldier?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, he is a soldier.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the perpetrator of a crime is a

 8     soldier, it will be the military prosecutor that has the authority.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Even if this is a crime of

10     passion?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see things much more clearly

13     now.

14             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours and

15     everybody else in the courtroom, and to you, too, Mr. Vidovic.

16             On behalf of the Petkovic Defence, I'm going to ask you a number

17     of questions and ask you to give us some additional explanations.  You've

18     told us a great deal, but I think that we can still add something.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Alaburic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Today, in response to Mr. Coric's Defence

21     counsel, you spoke about the so-called private prison in Bijelo Polje on

22     page 16 of the transcript today, and you told us that you tried to go

23     there, but you were stopped, and that after that you went back to the

24     operative zone and were given an answer and told that this would come

25     within the authority of the operative zone and that they would check to

Page 51586

 1     see what it was all about.  Have I interpreted your answer correctly?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Judge Antonetti then asked you whether you had informed Mr. Coric

 4     about that, and you said that you informed the operative zone through the

 5     MP Battalion.  My question to you is this:  Did you, in fact, inform your

 6     military police battalion about this prison or the operative zone, as was

 7     your first answer?

 8        A.   It's like this:  In the daily reports compiled by the

 9     Crime Prevention Department to which I belong, at the end of each day we

10     summarise our report through a daily report and we take it down to the

11     battalion.  When I say "take it down," we were in the floor above and

12     they were downstairs.  So that report, with all the other documents of

13     the MP Battalion, is then sent to the operative zone and the

14     Military Police Administration.

15        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, I'm not asking you about daily reporting now.  I

16     want you to tell me specifically.  This information about the private

17     prison, did you inform your MP Battalion or the operative zone thereof;

18     you, personally, directly?

19        A.   We informed -- I, personally, directly informed, by written

20     report, both the battalion and the operative zone.

21        Q.   Tell me, Witness, did you directly send that report of yours to

22     the operative zone?

23        A.   As far as I remember, that went through the daily reports.

24        Q.   Do you mean to say that the MP Battalion sent these daily reports

25     to the operative zone?

Page 51587

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   Now, Witness, tell us this:  Did you ever see a daily report from

 3     the MP Battalion which had written on it that it must be forwarded to and

 4     delivered to the operative zone?

 5        A.   I never saw that because I didn't work in those battalions.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, did you ever see a report from the MP Battalion

 7     which would have on it a reception stamp of the Operative Zone of

 8     South-East Herzegovina?

 9        A.   I don't think so, no.

10        Q.   Tell me, Witness, how do you know that the MP Battalion sent its

11     reports to the operative zone at all?  Is that something that somebody

12     told you?

13        A.   Up until the time I was an operative in the Crime Investigation

14     Department, I would receive that every day through my superior, and I

15     mentioned it being Mr. Marcinko yesterday.

16        Q.   I'm not asking you that, Mr. Vidovic.  What I'm asking you is

17     this:  Do you have direct knowledge or were you told by someone?  I don't

18     mind by who.  I'm not interested in that.

19             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I'm sorry.  For the hundredth time, are you

20     overlapping.  You are speaking before the previous speaker has been

21     translated, so you must make a break.  Otherwise, things get lost, and

22     time gets lost also.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no other way

24     of interrupting an ongoing answer which I wish to interrupt, because

25     every sentence uttered is deducted from my time, whereas I would just

Page 51588

 1     need one or two words in answer to my question.

 2        Q.   Now, Witness, do you have direct knowledge or did somebody tell

 3     you that the MP Battalion sends reports to the operative zone?

 4        A.   I have direct information only when I take over the

 5     Crime Department in Mostar and go to attend daily briefings in the

 6     MP Battalion in the morning, where we are assigned our daily tasks, and,

 7     among others, from the operative zone too.

 8        Q.   Tell me, Witness, did you ever attend a briefing at the commander

 9     of the operative zone's place?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Witness, you told us what the duties of a commander of a military

12     unit were if a soldier belonging to that unit commits a crime.  You

13     remember that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, tell us, please, does the same responsibility hold for the

16     commander of a military police unit?  Does he have the same

17     responsibility?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And does the commander of a unit of the civilian police have to

20     act in the same way?

21        A.   Probably, yes.

22        Q.   Tell me, Witness, do you remember -- in the Law on Criminal

23     Procedure, which was the Yugoslav law and was valid for all the republics

24     in Yugoslavia, do you remember that this law provided for the fact that

25     all state organs must submit criminal reports for crimes that are

Page 51589

 1     prosecuted in the line of duty, and that they are to furnish evidence

 2     along with those reports, and that they are duty-bound to secure the

 3     traces of a crime and cases -- or, rather, objects used in the commission

 4     of the crime?  Do you remember that provision of the Criminal Code?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And that's to be found in document 4D1105, Article 148.  And I'm

 7     saying that for the record.

 8             Mr. Vidovic, in your CV you mentioned that sometime in the

 9     beginning of November 1993, you were appointed head of department for the

10     crime police in the Military Police Administration; isn't that right?

11        A.   A proposal was made to that effect, but I was never appointed.

12        Q.   Then I misunderstood your CV.  But could you please look at my

13     set of documents now.  You should have that binder somewhere.  4D2063 is

14     the first document, 4D2063.

15             Mr. Vidovic, I wasn't shouting at you.  I was just repeating the

16     number for the transcript.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Alaburic, I don't have the

18     binder.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you would have to

20     have that binder because we had it distributed during the break.

21             [In English] Yes, four for Judges, because we delivered to all of

22     them.  The witness has.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was right to put the

24     question.

25             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

Page 51590

 1        Q.   Witness, please, let's look at this document.

 2             I do apologise, Your Honours, but I thought that it had been

 3     distributed already.

 4             Mr. Vidovic, this is a proposal to appoint an officer in the

 5     Military Police Administration.  The date is the 11th of November, 1993.

 6     And under paragraph 10, a proposal is made to appoint Zvonko Vidovic.

 7     Witness, is this the proposal that you meant?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Could you please look at the next document now,

10     5D4144.  Tell me, Witness, can you recognise this document?  Do you know

11     what this is?

12        A.   This is a document through which I am, in a way, relieved of duty

13     in Mostar.  And at a meeting in Ljubusko, I was told that I may be

14     proposed for a new duty, and I was working on a survey of the work of our

15     department.

16        Q.   So that is your document; right?

17             In the introductory part of this document, you say -- again, I

18     have to correct the number of the document.  5D4114, 4114.  Yes, now it's

19     fine.

20             So in the introductory part, you say that the military crime

21     police assumed its final form in July 1993, and that it was subdivided

22     into specialised departments and centres, and that it operated throughout

23     the territory of Central Bosnia.

24             Tell us, Witness, was the crime police truly reorganised in July

25     1993?

Page 51591

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let us please look at the next document, P4544, P4544.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.

 4             Document 5D4114, which stems from you, what drew my attention is

 5     this:  This is something which could be of interest.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters like to note that they do not have

 7     the document.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that this regards the

 9     statistical data, that there were 2.367 criminal reports.  This is

10     something you have to compare with the previous question relating to

11     1.208 procedures.  This seemingly has to do with armed rebellion,

12     Article 124.  Article 119, serves an enemy army.  Article 114, attack on

13     the constitutional order.  Article 120, aiding the enemy.  Are all these

14     articles and all these procedures related to the Muslim soldiers of the

15     HVO?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this document, I

17     cannot see that.  In such documents, we did not refer to ethnic

18     backgrounds.  In criminal reports, there is no reference, and especially

19     not in this kind of document.  This is quite simply an analytical review

20     of what we did.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Irrespective of this, did the

22     Serbs or the Croats take part in an armed rebellion, did they attack the

23     constitutional order, did they collaborate with the enemy, or don't you

24     know anything about this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just say that our legal

Page 51592

 1     department worked on criminal reports and sent them to the Prosecutor's

 2     Office.  It is the Military Prosecutor's Office that ultimately qualified

 3     the crimes involved.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to

 5     understand what this figure means, these 2.367 criminal reports.  I'm

 6     trying to figure this out, and you aren't able to answer my question,

 7     when this document comes from you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this document was created in

 9     my service, and I signed it as the head of the department.  A certain

10     number of people worked together with me, so on the basis of this

11     document, I cannot say anything else, I cannot say more than this.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, let us please look at P4544.  This is a decision on

15     call numbers in the Military Police Administration.  It was passed on the

16     26th of August, 1993, by the chief.  Let us look at number 10.  Is that

17     the department that you worked in, Mr. Vidovic?

18        A.   Mostar Centre, yes.

19        Q.   Mostar Centre, yes.  Tell me, it seems to me, on the basis of

20     this document, that the Mostar Centre that you worked in was part of the

21     Crime Military Police Department in the Military Police Administration;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   According to this document, yes.

24        Q.   If we look at page 2, we will see the 5th Battalion of the

25     Military Police.  And here, within the 5th Battalion of the Military

Page 51593

 1     Police, there is no reference to your centre; isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, tell us now, if you can -- you said at the very

 4     outset that you worked in the 3rd Battalion and later on in the

 5     5th Battalion of the Military Police.  Can you explain this document to

 6     us, then, in view of your claim that you were actually part of the

 7     military police of the battalion?  Can you explain that?

 8        A.   I cannot explain that.  As I've said already, up until the 1st of

 9     July, we were under the 3rd Battalion of the HVO Military Police, and

10     after the 1st of July, the 5th Battalion of the Military Police.

11        Q.   Let us look at the next document now.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll look at the document

13     after the break, because it's half past 12.00, and it would be the last

14     break of the day.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

18             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, let us look at the next document, 5D4110, 5D4110.

20     This is an order that is being issued on the 3rd of August, 1993, by the

21     chief of the Military Police Administration in order to improve the work

22     of the military crime police, and it says also that it should be

23     organised down the line, and also in terms of specialised departments as

24     the crime military police is organised.

25             My question for you is as follows:  Did you know that the

Page 51594

 1     reorganisation of the military police was as described in this document?

 2        A.   We received this through the Military Police Battalion, the

 3     battalion I belonged to, and that's when we first came across this.

 4        Q.   Tell me, from then on it was no longer called the Department for

 5     Combatting Crime, but the military crime police?

 6        A.   Probably, yes.

 7        Q.   Now we're going to skip a few documents, and after this tab that

 8     you have - that's right - the first document is a report on the work of

 9     the HVO HZ-HB for the first half of 1993.  In this courtroom,

10     Mr. Vidovic, we did not have many opportunities to discuss the work of

11     the civilian police, and since you did co-operate with the civilian

12     police, I would like to take advantage of your presence here to show

13     Their Honours what it was that the civilian police actually did.

14             So could you please look at page 33.  In English, it is page 21.

15     It is the part of the report -- P4699 is the number of the document,

16     4699.  So it's part of the HZ-HB report that refers to internal affairs,

17     and A says:  "The Police Section," and it describes the situation

18     regarding law and order.

19             My question for you, Mr. Vidovic:  To the best of your knowledge,

20     was the civilian police in charge of keeping law and order in the area of

21     Herceg-Bosna?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   A few pages on, 37 in Croatian and 24 in English, there is a

24     reference to the Crime Investigation Section in the Department of the

25     Interior.  I'm going to give some of the information provided here

Page 51595

 1     briefly.  It says a total of 1.438 criminal offences were registered in

 2     that period, and 153 various events which did not have a criminal

 3     character.

 4             Mr. Vidovic, could you explain this to us:  When it says in this

 5     kind of report that certain crimes were registered, what does that mean?

 6        A.   You're referring to the bottom of the page; right?

 7        Q.   Yes, yes, the Crime Investigation Section.  Does that mean that

 8     what had happened was recorded, were criminal reports filed?  What was

 9     done in this regard?

10        A.   At any rate, if they mentioned them this way, that means that

11     they recorded them.

12        Q.   And then further on it says:

13             "Out of the total number of criminal offences, 1.194 were common

14     criminal offences, 52 were economic crimes, and 192 were crimes of

15     special state concern."

16             Witness, could you please tell us whether you know whether war

17     crimes and terrorism fall under crimes of special state concern?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now please look at page 40, the end of page 40.  In English, it

20     should be page 27, if I'm not mistaken.  It says:

21             "Criminal police working on the prevention of crimes of special

22     state concern (war crimes and terrorism) have filed to the competent

23     Military Prosecutor's Offices a total of 192 criminal charges."

24             My question for you, Mr. Vidovic:  This may lead us to conclude

25     that the civilian police also filed criminal reports with the Military

Page 51596

 1     Prosecutor's Offices?

 2        A.   You meant the civilian police, rather, didn't you?

 3        Q.   Yes.  I do apologise.  I meant the civilian police.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much for this clarification.  And now the next

 6     document, P9411, 9411.  These are instructions in terms of how the

 7     military police is going to act, when the Law on Criminal Procedure is in

 8     force, if there is a state of war or an imminent threat of war in the

 9     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  My question for you is whether you

10     were aware of these instructions, Mr. Vidovic.

11        A.   Not in this way.  I've never seen this before.

12        Q.   Let us look at the text.  Number 2 says that:

13             "The military police is duty-bound to carry out work related to:

14             "1.  Protection of life and personal property of people and

15     property;

16             "2.  Prevention and uncovering of criminal offences;

17             "3.  Locating and arresting perpetrators of criminal offences;

18             "4.  Conducting investigations on the request of the judge of the

19     Military Court and compiling a criminal file."

20             Tell me, is this what you actually did?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let's look at the next document, P42 --

23             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Ms. Alaburic, could you give a date for this?

24             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, unfortunately, I

25     cannot give a date.  We can only base ourselves on the fact that there is

Page 51597

 1     a reference to the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, so it has to be

 2     the period up until August 1993, but there is no date on this document.

 3     We tried to establish the date, but we did not succeed in doing that.

 4     For that reason, this document had not been admitted into evidence so

 5     far.

 6             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Exactly, and it also has no signature.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's why I'm not

 8     going to tender it either.

 9        Q.   Document P4275, please.  This is a record from a working meeting

10     that was held on the 18th of August, 1993, in the premises of the HVO of

11     the HZ-HB in Mostar.  The meeting was attended not only by members of the

12     HVO, but others.  We see Mr. Covic and Ivica Lucic, and the situation is

13     the situation -- or, rather, the state of law and order in the

14     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

15             My question, Mr. Vidovic:  The HVO, or later on the government,

16     did it meet in Mostar in the second half of 1993?

17        A.   As we can see from this document, yes, it did.  However, in view

18     of the combat going on, meetings were held in other towns of Herceg-Bosna

19     as well.

20        Q.   Tell us, Witness, looking at the list of those present at the

21     meeting, was there somebody there representing the HVO Army?

22        A.   I know Valentin Coric, Ivica Lucic, and "P. Zelenika."  Perhaps

23     that's the Petar Zelenika, the one-time commander of the HVO of Mostar.

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, in the second part, it says that on the basis of

25     all information from the Defence Department staff and the staff of the

Page 51598

 1     Interior, it was assessed that there was better co-operation and

 2     co-ordination between the work of the military and civilian police and

 3     that operative plans were compiled to stop the trend of the rising crime

 4     rate.

 5             While we've still got it on our screens, the answer on page 82,

 6     line 9, the witness -- the answer wasn't recorded.  He said "P. Zelenika"

 7     was Petar Zelenika, who was one-time commander of the HVO in Mostar.

 8     That's what the witness said, and it wasn't recorded.

 9             Okay.  Now, I'm going to read another conclusion from this

10     document under item 4.  It says in the sphere of jurisdiction, more

11     stringent measures should be enforced against people committing grievous

12     crimes, such as murder, assault, and so on.  And my question for you is:

13     To the best of your knowledge, the organs of power and authority in

14     Herceg-Bosna, did they really do everything they could, given the time

15     and period, to uncover the perpetrators of crimes and to bring them to

16     justice, to punish them for their acts against the law?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I'm now going to show you two documents, after which I'll be

19     asking you questions, the first of which is P5477.  It's a letter from

20     you, Mr. Vidovic, to the head of the Defence Department, dated the 29th

21     of September, 1993.

22             And the following document is 2D974, 2D974, of that same day,

23     which you're sending to the Main Staff of the HVO, to General Zarko Tole.

24             To start off with, if we look at the headings of those documents

25     and try to define where the Mostar Centre is which you headed, tell us,

Page 51599

 1     Mr. Vidovic, was your Mostar Centre in the crime investigation military

 2     Police in the Military Police Administration or in the 5th Battalion of

 3     the Military Police?

 4        A.   We were still in the 5th Battalion of the Military Police.

 5        Q.   Can you explain why it doesn't say that in the head of this

 6     document?

 7        A.   When I said that we were still there, we were physically in the

 8     building where the 5th Battalion of the Military Police was located.

 9        Q.   So you were in the building of the 5th Battalion, but in

10     establishment terms, you were in the Military Police Administration; is

11     that right?

12        A.   If that's what it says here, then that's how it was.

13        Q.   All right, fine.  Tell me now, please, if you look at your stamp

14     there, and on the stamp we can see that it is the Military Police

15     Administration, which means there's no dilemma, in organisational terms,

16     you were an organisational unit within the crime military police within

17     the Military Police Administration; is that right?

18        A.   I have to put you right there.  All our stamps, which were 22

19     stamps, were stamps of the 5th Battalion.  We used all the stamped

20     documents through the Military Police Battalion, we used those stamps

21     sending them outside our department.

22        Q.   Very well, thank you.  Now, looking at the contents of these

23     documents, in both of them, on page 2, you say:

24             "I would like to ask you the following, and I'd like to quote

25     from the document sent to Bruno Stojic, that at top level a united

Page 51600

 1     position be taken with regard to the HVO units not interfering in

 2     military or civilian police affairs or in the military or civilian

 3     judiciary."

 4             Now I'm going to skip a line, and the next line reads:

 5             "At the highest level, to explain to unit commanders and who

 6     will, in turn, explain to their junior or senior officers, that within

 7     its domain, the police takes orders only from its chiefs."

 8             I'll end there.  Everybody can read the rest.

 9             But tell us, please, Mr. Vidovic, are those really your words

10     sent to the head of the Defence Department?

11        A.   This is a text that I compiled, wrote, sent, and signed, and sent

12     it off to several addressees, because at that point in time I had --

13     well, I was experiencing daily problems in my department's work, as can

14     be seen from the rest of the text.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's look at the next document, which is 5D4115.

16     And let's look at page 3 of that document.  It is the minutes from the

17     meeting held on the 21st of July, 1993, in the premises of the military

18     police of the HVO in Mostar, and the representatives of the Internal

19     Affairs Department attended the meeting, as did the Police Administration

20     and the Police Station of Mostar, as well as representatives of the

21     judiciary and the military police Mostar.

22             My first question is this:  Yesterday, Mr. Vidovic, and this was

23     recorded on page 69 of the transcript, mentioned a meeting at the

24     Military Police Administration on the 21st of July.  Is that the meeting

25     that is mentioned?

Page 51601

 1             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness

 2     did not say meeting at the Military Police Administration.  This was in

 3     the premises of the HVO of Mostar.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise.  That's right.

 5     I wasn't very precise.  No ill intention intended.

 6        Q.   Tell me, is that the meeting that you mentioned yesterday that

 7     took place in July and dealt with crime in Mostar?

 8        A.   This meeting was initiated by the Ministry of the Interior of

 9     Mostar.  It was held on the premises of the MP of Mostar, but they were

10     the hosts.  And a similar meeting, where we were the hosts, took place

11     five or six days later with the same goals in mind.

12        Q.   Very well.  I think that was the 26th of July.  We'll come to

13     that, but let's look at these minutes first.  You -- well, let's see what

14     Mr. Vladimir Primorac, the commander of the Light Assault Battalion of

15     the Military Police, has to say.  He said that they were encountering

16     similar problems as those of the civilian police and that they were

17     coming across some independent ATG groups which were not part of the HVO

18     units, and that it is known for certain that they were committing

19     criminal acts.

20             Mr. Vidovic, your personal knowledge, did it indicate the

21     existence of these ATG groups that were outside the HVO units?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now let's see what Mr. Penava says.  He says:

24             "The perpetrators of crimes are members of ATG groups, and the

25     civilian police feels a certain amount of fear to enter into direct

Page 51602

 1     conflict with such persons.  I do not know what the problem is and what

 2     is restraining the work of the military and civilian police, what's

 3     holding them back."

 4             Now tell us, Mr. Vidovic, these ATG groups, were they well armed

 5     and were they ready to fight the police if the police wanted to arrest

 6     them or prevent them in carrying out the crimes they were bent on?

 7        A.   They were prepared to do that, as you've just said.  And the

 8     police was afraid of groups like that, especially the civilian police.

 9     And in the Mostar area, these groups would clash amongst themselves.

10        Q.   As we don't have time to read through all these reports in

11     detail, I'm going to interpret one of the observations made of the

12     civilian and military police.  These acts, in the majority of cases, were

13     done for gain, for purposes of gain, and that that's why there was a

14     problem between these groups, who would have control over what territory

15     and reap the most benefit, that is to say, steal as much as possible; was

16     that it, in a nutshell?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, in the conclusions from this meeting, which is on page 5 of

19     the Croatian and the last page of the English text, among those under

20     item 7, it says that, among other things:

21             "The Defence Department must take a stand towards responsibility

22     of the areas.  One unit can control the front-line, while the rear is

23     controlled only by the military or civilian police."

24             Tell us, please, Mr. Vidovic, would that, in a relatively

25     well-organised situation, be the rule, that the army is there to fight

Page 51603

 1     the enemy up at the front-line and that everything in the rear should be

 2     controlled by the military and civilian police forces?

 3        A.   In the case of Mostar, this could not be applied, because Mostar

 4     had a very deep zone behind the front-line, since the front-line

 5     stretched through the center of town and quite literally between the

 6     buildings.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, tell us, Mr. Vidovic, why, then, at this

 8     meeting, which discussed crime in Mostar, why were conclusions of this

 9     kind made, the primary conclusions, because it's a conclusion which

10     relates to Mostar?  Could you explain how that came about?

11        A.   As I said earlier on, the urban area was the defence line.

12     However, Mostar is not such a small town, and throughout the war in

13     Mostar areas in the town existed in which a decision of this type could

14     be implemented.

15        Q.   All right.  Very well, Mr. Vidovic.  Now a few documents about

16     Mostar, itself.

17             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  I excuse me.  I have a small question about this

18     document.

19             In the English text - they are not numbered - I think it's the

20     fourth page, there is reference to what you have stated, Mr. Vidovic.

21     And you have said, I quote:

22             "If we, who had been appointed, had finished with collecting

23     inhabitants in the city, it cannot happen that one unit or group is

24     collecting people in the city."

25             Now, I would like you to explain to the Chamber what you refer to

Page 51604

 1     by "collecting inhabitants in the city."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is not the

 3     transcript.  It's minutes signed by Javorka Ribica [phoen], a person I

 4     don't know, and I've never seen this before.  That's not what I said.

 5             JUDGE TRECHSEL:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, while listening to you

 7     I was looking at the intervention of the president of the Military Court.

 8     It's very interesting.  It's a president of a military court who takes

 9     the floor.  I'm not going to go into details, but he talks about crime

10     activities, he talks about Tuta, and so on and so forth, and he talks

11     about the need to make sure that criminals are prosecuted.  And then

12     after him, somebody else takes the floor; namely, the military

13     prosecutor, Naden Zuricic [phoen], and then he takes stock of the

14     situation in a similar way.  But I see that he talks about accusations

15     against members of Muslim armed forces, but at the same time he doesn't

16     really go into details.  And then he says that there is no indictment

17     against criminals of the city of Mostar, and he wishes that some

18     repression be exerted.  So these are those two highly-prominent persons

19     that are touching upon issues that have been touched upon during the

20     whole day.  And then you're also going to take the floor and you're going

21     to talk about an American who is going to visit the Heliodrom.

22             Do you recall the intervention of the public prosecutor and the

23     president of the Military Court?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  When we read the

Page 51605

 1     time that they take the floor, we have the feeling that they would like

 2     more measures to be taken against those criminals.  What's your take on

 3     this?  Was that really the situation?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already said, within my

 5     remit, as far as the department was able to, the one I worked in, we

 6     acted that way, we did do that.  Now, of course, from the aspects of the

 7     present situation, that was not sufficient.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The president is

 9     Velimir Maric.  He may be a judge, I don't know, but he says something

10     that is rather important.  He says that policemen must be the first link

11     when detecting crime, and then there should be the Crime Department, and

12     the third link should be the prosecutor.  So these are the three

13     authorities that should play a role.  That's according to him.  What do

14     you think?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as it says here, he's right.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to our

18     records, I have 11 minutes left.  I was wondering whether I could be

19     given an additional 10 minutes or so if we have time left.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  We will finish the hearing

21     with you, and the Prosecutor will start tomorrow, if Mr. Pusic has no

22     questions to ask, of course.

23             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] That's exactly what I meant,

24     Your Honour.  If I manage now, within 11 minutes, to succeed in doing

25     what I intended to do, then I'd have about 10 minutes left until the end

Page 51606

 1     of today's session.  I would appreciate it if it would be --

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps 10 minutes will be

 3     taken up with questions from the Bench.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] In that case, Your Honours, I

 5     certainly won't have time.

 6        Q.   Witness, now we are going to reorganise the documents and I'm

 7     going to ask you something that is relatively towards the end.  But you

 8     can concentrate on my questions.

 9             Today, the Defence of Mr. Coric put some questions to you about

10     one of your documents, and I'm saying --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear

12     Ms. Alaburic.  There are other microphones on.

13             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Document P3238, your report to the Military Police

15     Administration.  The date is the 6th of July, 1993, and you mention

16     Colonel Obradovic's order.  Do you remember that question?  I'm just

17     asking you now whether you remember that answer.  Please focus on me and

18     what I'm saying to you, Mr. Vidovic.

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   And you can also rely on e-court.  It will only be faster for

21     you.

22             P3201, could we have that now, please, 3201.

23             My question, Mr. Vidovic, is whether this is

24     Nedjeljko Obradovic's order, the one that your question pertained to?

25     Nedjeljko Obradovic, on the 5th of July, 1993, issues this order not to

Page 51607

 1     release anyone from prison without his personal signature, and he is

 2     sending that to the wardens of the prisons of Gabela, Dretelj, Heliodrom,

 3     and Ljubuski.

 4        A.   In relation to the date, can you give me the previous document?

 5        Q.   It's the 6th of July.

 6        A.   Yes, then that's it.

 7        Q.   P3220, could we have that document now, please.

 8             On the 6th of July, you are asking the Military Police

 9     Administration for further instructions in relation to the order of

10     Nedjeljko Obradovic, which is document P3238.  So now we have the

11     document in e-court.  This is the response:  On the 6th of July, 1993,

12     and Nedjeljko Obradovic is herein being told that it is the Military

13     Police Administration that has sole jurisdiction over military or remand

14     prisons, so therefore you're not authorised to issue orders regarding the

15     release of prisoners.  Paragraph 2 cancels the order of

16     Nedjeljko Obradovic.  Paragraph 3 says that all prisoners who are in

17     military remand prisons and who were captured by the 1st Brigade of the

18     HVO will, if they are released, be released only with the agreement of

19     Nedjeljko Obradovic.  And this document was sent to the same detention

20     centres, Gabela, Dretelj, Heliodrom, and Ljubuski.

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I think it

22     would be useful, since my learned colleague linked up the two, could we

23     look at the document stamp of 3238 to see when it was received, when this

24     information from Mr. Vidovic was received?  I mean, I did not understand

25     what this was supposed to respond to.  So if she is saying that this is

Page 51608

 1     Mr. Vidovic responding to Mr. Coric, let us look at the stamp and see

 2     when it was that Mr. Coric received this information from Mr. Vidovic.

 3             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I suggest that my

 4     colleague deals with all of this in the redirect, whatever she considers

 5     relevant.

 6        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, did you receive this information from the Military

 7     Police Administration?

 8        A.   I found it just now.  3220, that's the number; right?

 9        Q.   That's right.

10        A.   Three things in relation to this sheet of paper.

11        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, just tell me, did you receive this information or

12     not?  I'm not interested in anything else.

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Mr. Vidovic, now I'm going to read what Josip Praljak, a witness

15     here, said in relation to this.  14943 is the transcript page.  This is

16     what he said.  I shall quote it in English, because the transcript is in

17     English:

18             [In English] "And I remember, after that, that this order was

19     conveyed to Stanko Bozic, and he was told that it was not meritorious and

20     that we came under the authority -- we, the prison, came under the

21     authority of the military police."

22             [Interpretation] My question for you, Mr. Vidovic, is as follows:

23     Did you personally ever see any order from Nedjeljko Obradovic later that

24     pertained to Heliodrom?

25        A.   You'll just have to tell me what "later" refers to.

Page 51609

 1        Q.   After this date that we are talking about, the 6th of January,

 2     19 -- the 6th of July, 1993.

 3        A.   The 6th of July, 1993, after that?  No.

 4        Q.   Can you repeat your answer?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now we are going to go back to the subject of Mostar.  P1654 is

 7     the document I'd like to deal with now.  This is a report on the work of

 8     the military police and the security situation in the area of Mostar, and

 9     the chief of the Military Police Administration sent it to Mate Boban and

10     to the head of the Defence Department on the 12th of March, 1993.  And in

11     the first paragraph, it says:

12             "We have received some assessments that the military police of

13     the administration does not have under its control the security situation

14     in the town of Mostar."

15             My question, Mr. Vidovic:  Did you know of such assessments of

16     the work of the military police in Mostar?

17        A.   Could you please repeat the first part of your question?

18        Q.   That the assessment was that the military police did not have

19     under its control the security situation in the town of Mostar.  It's a

20     report from mid-March 1993.

21             MS. TOMASEGOVIC TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wish

22     to intervene because this document is already an exhibit.  I think it was

23     brought through documentary evidence.  But on the document, it says

24     "1992," and then next to that it is handwritten "1993."  And this

25     signature is not Mr. Coric's signature.  So perhaps my colleague has some

Page 51610

 1     additional knowledge as to whose signature this is and which year this

 2     is.  Perhaps the witness knows.  Perhaps the witness should be asked what

 3     year it is.

 4             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in 1992 there was no

 5     HVO yet, so I believe that this is pure obstruction of my

 6     cross-examination.

 7        Q.   Let us look at the next document, Mr. Vidovic, 5D2113, 2113.

 8     This is a report that was signed by the chief of the Military Police

 9     Administration.  The date is the 4th of June, 1993.  And in paragraph 4,

10     it says:

11             "On the 31st of May, 1993, the military police received the order

12     that as of the 1st of June, 1993, it has to place under its absolute

13     control the part of town that was under the control of HVO units.  The

14     order was issued because there was a great deal of crime and many

15     apartments were robbed."

16             Mr. Vidovic, were you aware of this task of the military police

17     of the HVO in Mostar?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now we are going to skip a document, and let us look at document

20     P4058.  The first part of the report has to do with the Section for

21     Combatting Crime.  And then in the second part, we see the section for

22     Mostar.

23             My first question, Mr. Vidovic, has to do with the part of the

24     report that is on page 5 of the Mostar report.  In English, it is

25     page 13.  Roughly around the middle of the page, it says, and I quote:

Page 51611

 1             "That is how we encounter organised crime.  The perpetrators are

 2     groups of armed men who often introduce themselves as members of the

 3     military police, members of the so-called ATGs."

 4             Tell us, Mr. Vidovic, did you write this part of the report, you

 5     or your associates?

 6        A.   In Croatian, it's page 5, if I understand you correctly.  I've

 7     just found it, so could you tell me where it is?

 8        Q.   The middle of the page.  It's enough for you to listen to me, and

 9     you don't really have to read it word for word.  So groups of --

10        A.   That is how we encounter -- ah, yes, I see.  Could you please

11     repeat your question so I'll answer it then?

12        Q.   Did you compile this report, together with your associates?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   On the next page, roughly around the middle of the page - it is

15     14 in English, page 14 in English - certain characteristics of crimes in

16     Mostar are being referred to.  Tell us, Mr. Vidovic, did you make an

17     effort to devote particular attention to dealing with crimes when the

18     victims were ethnic Muslims?

19        A.   I already said that yesterday.  We treated all perpetrators of

20     crimes equally.

21        Q.   In this document, among the conclusions, there is a reference

22     under number 6, at the end of the document, that a co-ordinating body

23     should be established to unify the activity of this section of Mostar and

24     the corresponding sections in the Police Administration and police

25     stations in all areas of police activity.  Mr. Vidovic, tell us, did you

Page 51612

 1     truly make an effort to enhance your work and co-operation with the

 2     civilian police?

 3        A.   As I said, there were several meetings that were held in order to

 4     achieve that.

 5        Q.   Could you please look at the next document, 5D4117.  Tell us,

 6     Mr. Vidovic, if you know, what kind of a meeting was this and what kind

 7     of a record is this?

 8        A.   I've already said that the hosts were the MUP on one occasion.

 9     This time, we are hosting this meeting where the military police and the

10     Crime Department of the MUP are meeting again with the representatives of

11     the judiciary organs and the Prosecutor's Office.

12        Q.   Tell us, what is the subject of this meeting?

13        A.   The same like at the first meeting; analysing the state of crime

14     in town and proposing measures needed to curb the situation in town.

15        Q.   Let us look at the next document, P4111, P4111.  It is a record

16     of a working meeting that was held --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your time is up now, and we

18     will finish with this document.  It's just about time to stop anyway.

19             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you very much,

20     Your Honour.

21        Q.   So this is a record from a work meeting held on the 11th of

22     August, 1993, in Mostar.  The topic is the state of law and order in the

23     Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.  I would like to draw your attention,

24     inter alia, to the conclusion under number 3; namely, that it is

25     particularly necessary to link up and place under one's control various

Page 51613

 1     groups that are outside full command control.

 2             Tell me, Mr. Vidovic, can you give me a comment on this?  Does

 3     this have to do with the groups that were outside any kind of control,

 4     and that it is really out of avarice that they were committing crimes in

 5     the area of Mostar?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. ALABURIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to your

 8     instructions, I have concluded my questions.

 9             MS. NOZICA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  I know

10     that you have questions, but I'm afraid that we are going to finish and

11     I'm now going to say something that I think is very important.

12             We have no transcript from pages 1 through 8 today.  I think that

13     this is a technical problem that we have to resolve at this session,

14     because the transcript starts only on page 8.  It is important so that we

15     would have the complete statement and testimony of this witness.  So I

16     would like that to be dealt with before we adjourn.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, there is a virus

18     that is having an impact on the entire computer network of the Tribunal,

19     and the technicians are doing their best to try and solve the problem.

20     That said, we were able to follow on LiveNote the transcript page by

21     page, so everyone was able to follow the questions and the answers today.

22     We hope that the technicians will be able to solve this problem.

23     Whatever the case may be, we still have the audio recording.

24             Just to finish off, I would like to ask Mr. Pusic's counsel

25     whether he has any questions.

Page 51614

 1             MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will give you

 2     our answer tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have all night to think

 4     about it.

 5             We shall meet again tomorrow.  As you know, we shall be sitting

 6     in the morning.  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day of

10                           March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.