Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 890

1 Tuesday, 28 November 2006

2 [Prosecution Opening Statement - Continued]

3 [The accused is not present in the courtroom]

4 [Open session]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the microphone of the registrar is not

10 functioning. Could you please, just for calling the case, use another

11 microphone? Or are they all -- mine is working. Mr. Registrar, you are

12 invited to use mine.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. This is case number

14 IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I do understand that most

16 of the microphones are not working. This should be fixed, because I take

17 it that the Prosecution has problems in continuing with its opening

18 statement if the microphones are not working.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's working.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they are working, so then let's proceed.

21 The Chamber has been informed by the Registry that Mr. Seselj did

22 not wish to come to court, or was unable to come to court, but at least

23 that he did not -- that he expressed that he would not appear.

24 We have a few procedural matters, but I'd rather leave them until

25 after the Prosecution has finished its opening statement.

Page 891

1 Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, 50 minutes, I said yesterday, 50.


3 JUDGE ORIE: That takes you until 10.00. Please proceed.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 I will now move on to another group of victims and another group

6 of crimes, and there is -- I don't have a map. You see here the map

7 again, this map number 2 in the binder. I would like to direct your

8 attention to Mostar and Nevesinje in southern Bosnia-Herzegovina. Those

9 municipalities were relevant for the goal in relation to the Neretva River

10 and the access to the sea. In addition, Mostar was important because it

11 had two large military barracks, an airport and other military facilities.

12 A young Muslim boy, who happily lived with his family in a small

13 Muslim village in the Nevesinje municipality, saw his calm rural world

14 fall apart in June 1992. The family had not done anything wrong, were not

15 involved in politics or military matters, and felt safe in Nevesinje, a

16 municipality with a Serb majority population, firmly under control of the

17 Serb forces. The family felt safe even when other Muslims started hiding

18 in the woods and leaving.

19 In June 1992, the boy's family was the last to flee the village,

20 realising that Muslims were not safe in Nevesinje, and innocent civilians

21 were killed, houses destroyed, and villages shelled. The boy, with his

22 parents, grandparents, little brothers, and other relatives, tried to flee

23 in the direction of Mostar but they were captured by Serb soldiers. They

24 were taken to a detention facility in the village of Zijemlje and there,

25 the terrified children had to see and hear their relatives being beaten

Page 892

1 and tortured. The three children then were separated from their parents

2 and grandparents. This is the last time the children saw their parents

3 and relatives because they were taken away and murdered. Their bodies

4 were later discovered in a pit.

5 The children continued to be detained, first in Zijemlje and then

6 in the basement of SUP building in Nevesinje, under unbearable

7 conditions. They were joined by four more very small children and two old

8 women. After about 15 days of detention, this group of terrified children

9 and these old women were taken in the direction of Stolac and dropped off

10 by Serb soldiers in the middle of nowhere. They were eventually saved by

11 Croat soldiers.

12 Having lost their parents and grandparents, the children, after

13 the war, grew up in a children's home. One of them will be a witness

14 here. Their fate is only one of the many examples of human suffering in

15 Nevesinje and Mostar.

16 The Prosecution will provide evidence from victims, soldiers and

17 experts about several mass murders committed in June 1992 in Mostar and

18 Nevesinje by the Serb forces; namely, the murder of 88 Muslim civilians on

19 the 13th of June at the Ubarak city dump in Mostar; the murder of 18

20 non-Serb civilians at the city mortuary in Sutina, in Mostar, on that same

21 day; the murder of more than 70 civilians that were captured on the flight

22 from Nevesinje on the 22nd of June, 1992, among them many children, many

23 women and old people; the murder of two women that were detained and

24 assaulted at Boracko Jezero. The Prosecution will also provide evidence

25 on other crimes committed by Serb forces, including sexual assault, in

Page 893

1 particular at that same lake.

2 Why does the Prosecution hold the accused responsible? Prior to

3 the war, neither the SRS party, nor the SCP movement had a noticeable

4 presence in Mostar. However, in the neighbouring Nevesinje, Arsen

5 Grahovac promoted the SCP ideology. From 1991 onwards, his pub, Ravna

6 Gora, became a gathering point for SCP and SRS members and sympathisers.

7 Grahovac established a unit called Karadjordje. This unit was comprised

8 of between 80 and 100 members and sympathisers of the SCP and the SRS, and

9 operated both in Mostar and Nevesinje.

10 The group commanded by Grahovac was not the only group of

11 volunteers associated with the accused Seselj. From autumn 1991, in

12 particular in 1992, SRS and SCP volunteers from Serbia and Montenegro and

13 from the battlefields in Croatia arrived. These volunteers were commanded

14 by Branislav Vakic, the man I mentioned already in relation to Vukovar,

15 and Radovan Radovic.

16 In mid-May 1992, Mostar was taken over by Serb forces comprised of

17 JNA, Serb TO, SRS/SCP volunteers, Red Berets from the Serbian DB, in an

18 offensive commanded by General Momcilo Perisic.

19 We will hear from the participants in the attack that Oliver

20 Baret, one of the leading SRS/SCP commanders who had close connections to

21 the SRS leadership, arrived from Belgrade and was present in the military

22 headquarters of the JNA headquarters in Mostar, communicating constantly

23 with the SRS volunteer units.

24 SRS/SCP volunteers were among the troops that, in June 1992,

25 attacked the Muslim villages and settlements in the Nevesinje

Page 894

1 municipality, too. In the persecution that took place in Mostar and

2 Nevesinje, SRS and SCP volunteers figured prominently among those abusing

3 the non-Serb population.

4 These volunteers were involved in every murder and every abuse

5 that I just mentioned to you in both locations. And again, we have the

6 accused visiting the conflict area during the events. And again, we have

7 the promotion of those commanders involved in the crimes.

8 To save time, I'm not showing you the promotion order, Exhibit

9 2015, the order 124, any longer, but we find again the promotion Vakic.

10 But I will show you now another promotion order, and it is from the 20th

11 of March, 1994. It is very similar. If you look at -- if you look at the

12 top of it, you can actually see again that the Vojvoda Seselj is actually

13 promoting the others mentioned below. And below, as number 2, is

14 mentioned Radovic; he is mentioned for his participation in Dubrovnik and

15 in the Neretva valley, which includes Nevesinje. And as number 5, we have

16 Oliver Baret; he is mentioned as a Chetnik Major, one of the founders of

17 the SCP being involved throughout Croatia, beginning in Borovo Selo, going

18 to Okucani in Western Slavonia, and finally in Herzegovina; namely, in

19 Mostar.

20 This indictment also deals with events in Sarajevo; however, we

21 are not concerned in this trial with the shelling and sniping of

22 Sarajevo. Instead, the indictment depicts crimes committed by some of the

23 closest associates of the accused; namely, Vasilije Vidovic, Slavko

24 Aleksic, and Branislav Gavrilovic, who later were praised by the accused

25 and promoted for their conduct in Sarajevo.

Page 895

1 At the outset, let me just show you a map. That is Sarajevo, and

2 those red parts in there, these are the municipalities we are concerned

3 with in this trial - Ilijas, Vogosca, Ilidza and Novo Sarajevo.

4 The accused promoted, on the 20th of March, 1994, and that's the

5 order you just saw, the order number -- Exhibit 2288, he promoted Vasilije

6 Vidovic for his achievements in this greater Sarajevo area. The accused

7 promoted a man who, on the 5th of June, 1992, together with his men,

8 murdered 22 Muslims civilians of Ljecevvo, both men and women. The

9 accused promoted a man whose subordinates murdered prisoners of war in the

10 summer of 1993 in Crna Rijeka, and who cut off the head of a civilian

11 there; and also, in the summer of 1993, murdered 27 Muslim detainees as a

12 revenge for Serb losses at the front line. Seselj promoted a man who

13 detained many non-Serb civilians in various detention facilities in Ilijas

14 and Vogosca municipalities over extended periods of times, and subjected

15 them to the abuse, including beatings, torture, rape, forced labour under

16 dangerous conditions on the front lines, and killings.

17 Vasilije Vidovic originated from Ilijas. In 1991, he organised a

18 group of SRS/SCP volunteers and spent time with them at the front lines in

19 Croatia where he already was involved in murders in the SAO Krajina. When

20 the conflict started in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Vidovic returned with his men

21 to Sarajevo. He was in close contact and cooperated with the local SDS

22 Crisis Staff. He and his men could do whatever they wanted with

23 impunity.

24 We will hear from witnesses that Vasilije Vidovic was a

25 particularly brutal and ruthless man, who drove around in a jeep with a

Page 896

1 human skull on the hood. He and his men were rightly known for their

2 brutality and the murder of the civilians and prisoners of war.

3 Despite all this, Vidovic remained a close associate of the

4 accused. The accused would come to Ilijas and meet him and his men, and

5 as well, Vidovic went to Belgrade and met the accused. Vidovic remained

6 close to the accused even after the war and acted as his bodyguard.

7 Let me now turn to another of these close associates. You see

8 here a photo of Slavko Aleksic, in the middle of this photograph. He and

9 his SRS/SCP volunteers controlled the area of the Jewish cemetery in

10 Grbavica. He was also promoted, again, in that order of the -- order

11 number 124, and he was referred in this order as the Commander of the Novo

12 Sarajevo Chetnik detachment.

13 After the war, the accused praised Aleksic and the SRS volunteers

14 in Grbavica, saying they had performed a great service to the SRS and the

15 Serb nationalism.

16 What did Slavko Aleksic do for the Serb cause? He and his men

17 subjected the non-Serbs in Grbavica to a persecution campaign which

18 included arbitrary searches of homes, looting, rapes, beatings and

19 killings. Both men and women were subjected to forced labour under

20 dangerous reasons, and more than 80 civilians were killed while performing

21 forced labour.

22 Finally, Branislav Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, he was also

23 active in the greater Sarajevo area. Gavrilovic became the leader of the

24 Serbian youth movement of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an organisation that joined

25 the accused's SRS/SCP movement after Gavrilovic had met the accused in

Page 897

1 Bijeljina in 1991.

2 The accused appointed him later to be the commander of the

3 volunteers in Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem. And you actually see

4 here Exhibit 1258, a certificate signed by the accused and Ljubisa

5 Petkovic, confirming that Gavrilovic just had this position in the time

6 period from June to December.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, when I follow the French

8 translation, I see that they are quite a few lines behind. Could you

9 please slow down. I do not know whether, for the B/C/S translation, we

10 have a similar problem. But if you slow down a bit, then the interpreters

11 will be better able to follow.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do that.

13 Sorry.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I will just first check with the French translation

15 where we are. I am still waiting in French for the translation of my own

16 words where I asked Madam Uertz-Retzlaff to slow down.

17 THE INTERPRETER: It's been done. It's already been translated.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Gavrilovic was also one of the leaders of the SRS party in

22 Ilidza. During the war, he was in charge of a huge unit of volunteers.

23 The Prosecution will provide evidence that Gavrilovic, while in Croatia

24 and also later in Bosnia and Herzegovina, would receive orders from the

25 SRS office in Belgrade, and he would meet the accused frequently, both in

Page 898

1 Belgrade and in Sarajevo. He was also appointed Vojvoda in May 1993, in

2 that order number 124.

3 I'll show you just a photo now. Branislav Gavrilovic is the

4 second man from the left.

5 Let me give you one example of what Gavrilovic -- by the way, yes,

6 it's the second from the left counting all the men, where there is no name

7 given.

8 Let me give you an example of what Gavrilovic did in Sarajevo. On

9 the 17th of July, 1993, Branislav Gavrilovic and his SRS/SCP volunteers

10 captured four members of the Sarajevo TO on their position in Golo Brdo at

11 Mount Igman, facing Ilidza. They shot one of them, a 17-year-old boy, on

12 the spot. The other prisoners of war were interrogated by Gavrilovic and

13 one of his subordinates. During the interrogation, they were hit, beaten

14 and kicked. Two of the prisoners of war were, afterwards, murdered.

15 The crimes that I just described were committed because the

16 accused and the other members of the JCE wanted to achieve Serb domination

17 in particular territories in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and a lot

18 of innocent people had to pay a heavy price for that.

19 But, Your Honours, let me now turn to my colleague, Mr. Saxon, who

20 will address some particular aspects of the role of the accused and the

21 crimes committed in Serbia itself.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Saxon, you may proceed.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, could you tell me precisely how many

24 minutes the Prosecution has remaining.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thirty-two.

Page 899

1 MR. SAXON: Thirty-two minutes. I will endeavour to finish my

2 remarks in 32 minutes. I may ask you for, perhaps, a couple of minutes

3 more but I will try not to do that.

4 Your Honours, this trial, perhaps more than any other case before

5 this Tribunal, is about the use of words, language and expression. This

6 trial is about the use of political speech to poison the minds of men and

7 women in order to further criminal goals.

8 This case is about the ability of the accused, Vojislav Seselj, to

9 use propaganda to condition Serbs to fear, hate, and commit violence

10 against members of the non-Serb communities in the former Yugoslavia, in

11 particular, Croats and Muslims. One simple definition of "propaganda"

12 is "an endeavour to spread ideas without regard to truth or to accuracy."

13 Massive crimes, such as the mass murders and the expulsions of entire

14 communities from their homes lying at the heart of this case, require the

15 assistance of persons who believe that the atrocities they commit are

16 justified, necessary, and immune to any sanction.

17 Prior to the 1990s, ethnic relations between Serbs, Croats, and

18 Muslims in the former Yugoslavia were relatively good. To change that

19 situation, to convince Serbs to accept or to carry out acts of violence

20 and destruction necessary to achieve the purpose of the joint criminal

21 enterprise described by my colleague, to forcibly expel thousands of

22 non-Serbs from their homes, the propaganda used by political elites had to

23 be extreme. And so it was. This war, Your Honours, was fought with words

24 in addition to arms.

25 I'd like to briefly show you an excerpt from some video footage

Page 900

1 taken on the 17th of April, 1991, at a place called Plitvice, in Croatia.

2 This is Prosecution Exhibit 3155.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

5 "JOURNALIST: In such an atmosphere, vojvoda Seselj announced

6 already at the beginning of the meeting, started his speech.

7 AUDIENCE: Voja! Voja! Serbia! Serbia! Serbia! Serbia!

8 Serbia! Serbia!

9 VOJISLAV SESELJ: Here Serbian people live, this is Serbian land

10 and it will remain Serbian forever.

11 AUDIENCE: That's right! That's right!

12 JOURNALIST: Instead of calming then down, Seselj sent a message

13 to the gathered people at the end.

14 VOJISLAV SESELJ: We are sending a message to the new Ustasha head

15 of state and Ustasha regime in Croatia: Serbian heads have rolled, struck

16 down by the Ustasha hand in the Serbian Krajina. A Serbian head has

17 rolled down in Serbian Western Srem and Slavonia, as well - we will avenge

18 Serbian blood.

19 AUDIENCE: We will."

20 MR. SAXON: That last sentence by the accused would be prophetic.

21 Without the extraordinary communication skills of this accused and other

22 politicians like him, without Seselj's ability and determination to

23 inculcate his version of reality into the minds of many Serbs, there would

24 have been very few so-called foot soldiers to carry out the violent goals

25 of the joint criminal enterprise. There would have been very few foot

Page 901

1 soldiers to accomplish the accused's personal goal of the creation of the

2 Greater Serbia.

3 This next video clip was made on the 21st of April, 1991, and it

4 shows the accused speaking in the town of Jagodnjak, in Croatia.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "As far as we are concerned, the

7 Croats can leave Yugoslavia any time they want, but we are letting them

8 know openly that they will not take an inch of Serbian territory, not a

9 piece of land on which there are Serbian villages, demolished churches,

10 caves in which Serbs were butchered, Serbian camps, Serbian killing

11 fields, such as Jasenovac. Should we permit that, we would be unworthy of

12 our glorious ancestors and shamed before our descendants. The Croats may

13 create their new state, but only to the west of the

14 Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica line. Everything to the east of that

15 line ..."

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, the Prosecution is well aware of the

17 tension that exists --

18 MR. HOOPER: Could we have an exhibit number for that, please.

19 Sorry.

20 MR. SAXON: That is Exhibit 724, clip B.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hooper, is there a problem?

22 MR. HOOPER: I just asked the exhibit number; 724, I think.

23 MR. SAXON: The Prosecution is well aware of the tension that

24 exists between the internationally recognised right of freedom of

25 expression, in particular, the right to express political ideas, and the

Page 902

1 use of hate speech which forms one of the basis for holding the accused

2 criminally responsible for the charges alleged in the indictment.

3 This is not the first international prosecution of an accused for

4 the criminal use of propaganda. Following the Second World War, the

5 International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg convicted Julius Streicher of

6 the crime against humanity of persecution for his incitement of the German

7 people to murder and exterminate the Jews.

8 Just as Julius Streicher continued to publish his so-called

9 propaganda of death, with full knowledge of the extermination of the Jews

10 in the occupied eastern territory, Seselj used demonising and dehumanising

11 rhetoric about non-Serbs during the armed conflict in the former

12 Yugoslavia, with knowledge of the crimes being committed by Serb forces

13 that were a direct result of his propaganda and speeches.

14 Julius Streicher's advocacy of "the final solution" during the

15 Second World War was considered a general campaign of persecution not

16 linked to specific acts and conduct. In this case, Seselj's participation

17 in the joint criminal enterprise, through his propaganda of fear and

18 hatred directed against non-Serbs, also amounted to a similar general

19 persecution campaign. But in addition, Seselj, through his use of

20 propaganda, directly instigated specific crimes at specific sites and

21 personally committed specific crimes at specific sites.

22 Given his position in Serbian society, Seselj possessed the

23 dangerous ability to broadcast his propaganda and exert his influence in

24 both the political and military arenas simultaneously. This enabled him

25 to recruit and indoctrinate persons willing to wage war and commit the

Page 903

1 crimes necessary to further his goal of the establishment of Greater

2 Serbia.

3 I'd like to show you another short video clip. It's from

4 Prosecution Exhibit 747. It shows the accused speaking before the Serbian

5 parliament in September 1991.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica

8 has to be our goal, and that is the border where the army has to withdraw

9 its troops. If the army is unable to move its troops from Zagreb to this

10 line without a fight, then they should do this with force and with the

11 bombing of Zagreb. The army still has capacities which it has not yet

12 used. If its troops are endangered, it has the right to use napalm bombs

13 and anything else they have available in their warehouses. We cannot play

14 games here. It is more important to save one army unit than to worry if

15 there will be some accidental victims. Who is to blame here? They wanted

16 war. Now they have it."

17 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, in the judgement of the so-called "Media

18 Trial," the ICTR convicted Ferdinand Nahimana, Jean-Bosco Barayagwiza, and

19 Hassan Ngeze for the crimes of direct and public incitement to commit

20 genocide and the crime against humanity of persecution. The ICTR Trial

21 Chamber focused on the cumulative impact of the hate speech and incitement

22 to violence emanating from the newspaper articles in "Kangura" and the

23 RTLM radio programmes broadcast throughout Rwanda.

24 In this case, using examples and the expert evidence of

25 Dr. Anthony Oberschall, the Prosecution will likewise demonstrate the

Page 904

1 cumulative effect of Seselj's propaganda. What makes this case distinct

2 and separate from the "Media Case," however, is the fact that Seselj

3 personally committed the crimes of deportation and forcible transfer with

4 his public speeches.

5 Please bear in mind an important point developed by the "Media"

6 judgement. In paragraphs 1008 and 1009, the Trial Chamber observed that

7 the dangers of censorship are often associated with the suppression of

8 minorities or groups who are in opposition to the government. These

9 circumstances do not arise in the case of Mr. Seselj's use of political

10 expression between August 1991 and September 1993 because Mr. Seselj was

11 advocating on behalf of the majority population of Serbia and in support

12 of the ruling Milosevic regime and its police and military forces. No

13 issue exists in these proceedings of an infringement of a minority's right

14 to express itself.

15 International human rights treaties recognise the tensions that

16 may exist between the right to freedom of expression and other fundamental

17 human rights. The judgements from the European Court of Human Rights

18 provide some guidance as to when so-called "fighting words," the

19 expression of tough, even violent communications in a democratic

20 marketplace of ideas, cross the frontier between lawful and illegal

21 speech. The determining factor in this jurisprudence, discussing whether

22 political speech can be legitimately restricted, is: Does the speech or

23 communication constitute incitement to violence or is it capable of

24 inciting violence?

25 I might respectfully direct Your Honours' attention to the

Page 905

1 judgement in the case of Surek vs. Turkey, issued on the 8th of July,

2 1992, pages 27 to 28.

3 In a concurring opinion to a different judgement issued on the

4 same day, Surek and Ozdemir vs. Turkey, at page 40 of the English version,

5 five judges of the European Court of Human Rights suggested that less

6 attention should be given to the form of words used and more attention

7 directed to the general context in which the words were used and their

8 likely impact.

9 Was the language intended to inflame or incite to violence? Was

10 there a real and genuine risk that it might actually do so? Did the

11 author of the offending text occupy a position of influence in society of

12 a sort likely to amplify the impact of his words? Was the publication

13 given a degree of prominence either in an important newspaper or through

14 another medium which was likely to enhance the influence of the impugned

15 speech? Were the words far away from the centre of violence or on its

16 doorstep?

17 Your Honours, this concurring opinion represents a more nuanced

18 and rigorous test for legitimate restrictions on speech than the more

19 general criteria applied by a majority of the judges of the ECHR. But

20 should the Trial Chamber decide to apply this more rigorous test to the

21 evidence of Seselj's propaganda presented in this case, it will see that

22 even under this higher level of scrutiny, this accused's speech was

23 criminal.

24 The Prosecution's expert witness, Dr. Anthony Oberschall, will

25 identify a number of topics and methods of persuasion which served to make

Page 906

1 the accused's propaganda particularly effective; for example, the idea

2 that the Serbian population is threatened and in danger.

3 By the spring and summer of 1991, Vojislav Seselj increasingly

4 used his exceptional rhetorical skills to convince Serbs that members of

5 other nationalities, particularly Croats, posed a grave danger to the

6 survival of Serbs as a group. Seselj referred to Croats as Ustasha, to

7 link all Croats to the fascist regime that collaborated with Nazi Germany

8 during World War II.

9 I'd like to briefly show you a clip. This is Prosecution Exhibit

10 755. This was originally part of the BBC documentary "The Death of

11 Yugoslavia," and it shows the accused speaking in front of the Federal

12 Assembly in Belgrade during the summer of 1991.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The very roots of the Serbian cause

15 are under threat. Hoards of Ustashas are attacking Serbian villages,

16 Serbian women and children. The Ustasha hordes are trying to finalise the

17 genocide of the Serbian nation."

18 MR. SAXON: Another rhetorical tool used by Seselj was the

19 constant depiction of the Serb population as victims of past and present

20 crimes committed by Croats and other nationalities. Seselj skillfully

21 used that sense of victimhood as justification for acts of collective

22 violence and revenge, including the loss of territories.

23 This next video comes, again, from Exhibit 724, part of the speech

24 on the 21st of April, 1991, at Jagodnjak, Croatia.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Before we play that, Mr. Saxon, I get the impression

Page 907

1 that the portions of the video you're drawing our attention to are

2 translated. They may be on paper, as part of your opening statement,

3 which may have been provided to the translators, but I also heard there's

4 an English introduction before Mr. Seselj speaks. I don't know whether

5 that's on paper. I don't know whether this English introduction is also

6 translated in B/C/S; I didn't check that. If it has not been translated,

7 then it -- this should be corrected, because that's part of what we hear

8 in English. That should be translated in B/C/S as well.

9 May I ask the B/C/S booth, and I'll change it to, whether you have

10 translated the English introduction.

11 Yes, I --

12 THE INTERPRETER: No, we haven't translated that, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the way it should be done, Mr. Saxon. If

14 anything is played in English here, as an introduction, even if you did

15 not write that down, perhaps, as part of your opening statement, it came

16 to our ears, it therefore -- I invite you to play that last video portion

17 again and I'd like to invite the B/C/S booth, and, of course, the same is

18 true for the French booth, to translate also the introduction given by the

19 reporter and not only that portion you consider to be relevant for your

20 opening statement, because it came to our ears in English; it has to come

21 to everyone's ears listening to these proceedings.

22 MR. SAXON: We will do that now, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Which part?

24 MR. SAXON: We will do that now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

Page 908

1 [Videotape played]

2 "JOURNALIST: To this end, extremist allies of President Milosevic

3 set about provoking a conflict between Serbs and Croats."

4 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The very roots of Serbdom are under

5 threat. Hordes of Ustashas are attacking Serb villages, Serb women and

6 children. The Ustasha hordes are trying to finalise the genocide of the

7 Serbian nation."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Saxon.

9 MR. SAXON: Another rhetorical tool used by Vojislav Seselj was

10 the constant depiction of the Serb population as victims of past and

11 present crimes committed by Croats and other nationalities. He skillfully

12 used that sense of victimhood as justification for acts of collective

13 violence and revenge, including the loss of territories.

14 This next video clip comes, again, from Exhibit 724. It's from

15 the accused's speech in Jagodnjak, Croatia, in April 1991.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The new Ustasha chief and Josip

18 Broz's general Franjo Tudjman, and the new Ustasha government in Croatia

19 have again put the kama under its throat. Should they attempt a new

20 genocide against the Serb people, we say to them we shall take revenge for

21 each Serb life and we shall also ask to pay up for past crimes ... also

22 for crimes in recent history. No deed will be unpunished. And we will

23 not allow ..."

24 MR. SAXON: Seselj's speeches demonised and dehumanised Croats,

25 Muslims and other non-Serbs by portraying them using negative stereotypes,

Page 909

1 by linking all Croats to the fascist Ustasha regime, by labelling Bosniaks

2 as supporters of the fundamentalist pan-Islamist movements that allegedly

3 intended to take control of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 The next exhibit is from 569 and it's part of the interview that

5 the accused gave to a magazine called "On" on the 24th of May, 1991. The

6 accused said on that day, among other things, "How is one supposed to

7 negotiate with the Ustashas? Did you see today that the Croatian people

8 are entirely Ustasha? There are very few exceptions."

9 By demonising and dehumanising Croats and Muslims, Seselj's

10 speeches removed any need to question the morality or legality of crimes

11 committed against non-Serbs. At the same time, Seselj's speeches

12 glorified the Serb people and their behaviour in wartime, further

13 encouraging aggression and violence against other national groups.

14 This next exhibit that you will see in front of you is from

15 Prosecution Exhibit 1836. It's an excerpt from an article that was

16 published in the newspaper of the Serbian Radical Party, Velika Serbia,

17 No. 10, from 1991, and it records the accused saying, with respect to the

18 Croatian Serbs:

19 "We greet their heroic leader, Milan Babic, who is in the front

20 lines of the defence of Serbdom, whose intelligence and courage have

21 placed him amongst the greatest sons of the Serbian people. And we would

22 tell him that thousands of Chetniks will jump to his aid every time he

23 seeks help. We also greet the SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its clever

24 leader, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, who stood in the front lines in the defence

25 of national interests through the will of the Serbian people. We would

Page 910

1 tell them all that they will not stand alone as long as Serbian Chetniks

2 are ready to follow the glorious example of their forebears."

3 And so continued the process of conditioning large segments of the

4 Serb population that they were endangered, that Croats and other non-Serbs

5 were persons to be feared and hated, and that action, including extreme

6 action, had to be taken quickly to destroy this grave threat to Serbs.

7 Several aspects of the accused's use of language from 1991 to 1993

8 made his form of political speech criminal.

9 First, Vojislav Seselj used his particular forms of expression

10 within a volatile context of war and political turmoil, when members of

11 all national and ethnic communities would be highly susceptible to his

12 messages of fear and hate.

13 Second, Seselj was fully aware of his own political power and his

14 extraordinary ability to influence people through his speeches.

15 Statements made by the accused for the BBC's film "The Death of

16 Yugoslavia," as well as statements made by Seselj during his testimony in

17 the Milosevic trial, are illustrative.

18 The next two video clips come from "The Death of Yugoslavia," Your

19 Honour, which is Prosecution Exhibit 756.

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Milan Babic came with me and the

22 people booed him, but then I gave a fiery speech and then people started

23 applauding. Milan Babic wanted to reconcile with Raskovic, but Raskovic

24 refused on the spot, and that's why he failed politically."

25 "I first went there on the 9th of March, while Vuk Draskovic was

Page 911

1 destroying Belgrade here in the protests against the Serb -- the regime.

2 I went to Slavonia to raise an uprising of the Serbian people. I am

3 honoured by the role I had in 1991. The Serbs there asked for me, they

4 called me. First of all, they did not trust Milosevic much. He was

5 giving them promises which he did not always fulfill. They felt

6 threatened, and because we at the Serb Chetnik movement gathered a large

7 number of decisive, capable and courageous people, they asked for our

8 help."

9 MR. SAXON: The next exhibit comes from Prosecution Exhibit, I

10 believe it's, 2828, the testimony of Mr. Seselj during the trial of

11 Slobodan Milosevic. This is from the accused's testimony on the 24th of

12 August, 2005, page 43125, where His Honour Judge Bonomy asked Mr. Seselj,

13 then a witness:

14 "JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Seselj, how many volunteers were there from

15 the Serb Radical Party?"

16 And Seselj responded:

17 "THE WITNESS: Well, sort of for propaganda reasons, we said that

18 there were about 30.000 of them, but the real figure would have been about

19 10.000."

20 Thus, the Prosecution's evidence will prove that when Seselj used

21 political speech to generate fear and hatred amongst different

22 nationalities, his actions were calculated and deliberate.

23 Third, by demonising and denigrating the non-Serb population,

24 Seselj's speeches, in the minds of his listeners, justified their acts of

25 violence committed against non-Serbs and helped to make such acts

Page 912

1 permissible.

2 Fourth, such hate speech by Seselj, per se, harmed the human

3 dignity of non-Serbs in the former Yugoslavia and thereby constituted a

4 form of persecution.

5 Fifth, as my colleague told you, Seselj's speeches directly

6 instigated and incited Serb men and women to commit acts of violence

7 against non-Serbs.

8 Sixth, Seselj, through his speeches promoting fear and hatred of

9 non-Serbs, personally committed the crimes against humanity of deportation

10 and forcible transfer. Seselj's criminal forms of public expression were

11 highly effective in the province of Vojvodina, Serbia, home to more than

12 72.000 ethnic Serb-Croats prior to the start of the war.

13 Your Honours, I must interrupt my speech now. I see that I will

14 shortly be arriving, formally at least, at the 32-minute mark. If I were

15 to read the rest of my speech and present the selected exhibits, I believe

16 it would take approximately ten more minutes, perhaps a bit longer. I

17 need some guidance from the Trial Chamber as to how much time you will

18 indulge me.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Saxon, the Chamber decides that you get another

21 ten minutes; that means until 12 minutes past 10.00.

22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 This map in front of you is map number 20 in the binder of maps

24 that you received yesterday, and it shows in the middle, it shows the

25 province known as Vojvodina, the province of Serbia known as Vojvodina.

Page 913

1 You see Belgrade at the south and you see the town of Hrtkovci, a red dot

2 just to the north-west of Belgrade.

3 Vojvodina is the province of Serbia which borders Croatia; namely,

4 Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem. Eventually, Vojvodina would

5 become the Serbian Radical Party stronghold, and the accused visited

6 different locations in Vojvodina on numerous occasions.

7 As you will hear from Prosecution expert witness Ewa Tabeau,

8 during 1991 and 1992, close to 250.000 ethnic Serb refugees came to Serbia

9 from Croatia and parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina. More than 95.000 of

10 these ethnic Serb refugees arrived in Vojvodina, some of them in buses

11 arranged by the Serbian Radical Party. To make room for these refugees

12 and to further his own political agenda, the accused spoke at rallies, at

13 private meetings, and in the Serbian parliament, calling for the expulsion

14 of Croats from Vojvodina. He declared Croats to be disloyal citizens who

15 had to be expelled.

16 For the assistance of my case manager and those following -- the

17 interpreters following along in the booth, I'm going to jump forward in my

18 speech. I'm going to ignore Exhibit 745 and 612.

19 The ethnic Croats then living in the farming village of Hrtkovci,

20 about an hour's drive north-west of Belgrade, were some of the victims of

21 Vojislav Seselj's campaign to drive Croats out of Serbia. Tensions began

22 to rise in Hrtkovci during the second half of 1991 with the arrival of

23 Serb refugees in that community. Serbs from outside Hrtkovci, as well as

24 Serb residents of that village associated with the Serbian Radical Party,

25 harassed and threatened some prominent Croat residents and told them to

Page 914

1 leave the village.

2 On the 6th of May, 1992, Seselj spoke at a public rally in

3 Hrtkovci organized by the Serbian Radical Party. Prosecution witnesses

4 will describe how Seselj called for the expulsion of Croats from that

5 community.

6 What you're seeing now on your screen is an excerpt from

7 Prosecution Exhibit 556. This is from the speech that Seselj gave in

8 Hrtkovci on that day. It was reprinted in one of his books, "The Devil's

9 Apprentice, Criminal Roman Pope John Paul II." And we see that Seselj

10 said the following in the first paragraph:

11 "In this village, too, in Hrtkovci, in this place in Serbian Srem,

12 there is no room for Croats. Who are those Croats for whom there is room

13 among us? Only those Croats and their families who have shed blood

14 together with us on the front lines. They were called Croats in name

15 only, anyway. Some of them served with our volunteers. They have already

16 awakened to the fact that they are, in fact, Catholic Serbs. They will

17 stay here with us while all the rest must clear out of Serbia."

18 And then in the next paragraph, lower down, it says in the middle

19 of the next paragraph:

20 "Very well, then, if we cannot do that, then we should give every

21 Serbian family of refugees the address of one Croatian family. The police

22 will give it to them, the police will do as the government decides, and we

23 will be the government soon. Fine, then. Every Serbian family of

24 refugees will knock on one Croatian door and give whatever Croats they

25 find their address in Zagreb or another Croatian place. Oh, they will,

Page 915

1 they will. There will be enough buses, we will drive them to the border

2 of Serbian territory, and they can walk on from there, if they do not

3 leave before of their own accord."

4 And later on, another paragraph, the accused told the assembled

5 crowd:

6 "I firmly believe that you, Serbs from Hrtkovci and other villages

7 and here, will also know how to preserve your harmony and unity, that you

8 will promptly get rid of the remaining Croats in your village and the

9 surrounding villages."

10 The Prosecution witnesses will then describe the fear caused by

11 Seselj's speech and the subsequent expulsion campaign of ethnic Croats in

12 the village of Hrtkovci, which, to a large degree, mirrored the

13 instructions given in Seselj's speech.

14 I'm now going to skip forward some more to page 18, paragraph 27.

15 The evidence will demonstrate that Seselj used all available media

16 resources: television, radio, daily newspapers, including two Serbian

17 Radical Party newspapers, one printed in Belgrade and the other in Banja

18 Luka, weekly periodicals and personal appearances to disseminate his hate

19 speech.

20 The cartoon you see on your screen is Prosecution Exhibit 0666.

21 Even cartoons were used to spread messages attacking non-Serbs and

22 glorifying violence against Croats and Muslims. This cartoon was

23 published in the July 1993 issue of "Western Serbia", one of the Radical

24 Party's newspapers. This cartoon was published next to an article

25 entitled "There is No Co-Existence with Islam." The cartoon depicts a

Page 916

1 large Serb Orthodox church and a man with a broom who is sweeping small

2 mosques away from the area around the church.

3 The Prosecution's evidence will demonstrate that by the time this

4 disgusting cartoon was published, the message it promoted, the destruction

5 of Muslim cultural property as a means of destroying Muslim identity and

6 presence, had already been fulfilled in many communities in Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina.

8 I'm now at paragraph 29.

9 It is reasonable to ask how mere words spoken and written by

10 Vojislav Seselj, broadcast on radio and television and published in

11 newspapers and in the accused's numerous books, could incite so many

12 people to commit so many horrible crimes. Your Honours, the answer lies

13 in the very ordinariness of human nature.

14 Professor Anthony Oberschall will explain to the Chamber how every

15 human being is susceptible to the conditioning rhetoric of fear and how it

16 is but a very small emotional step from the common human condition of fear

17 to the poisonous mentality of hate. Recent history contains many tragic

18 examples of how ordinary people, people like you and I, under certain

19 circumstances, can be persuaded to commit the most terrible acts.

20 That's why some of the Prosecution evidence will also focus on the

21 ordinary Serb men and women, many of them young and just starting their

22 lives, who believed in Vojislav Seselj's message and followed his

23 leadership by taking up arms, going off to war, and who committed acts of

24 brutality.

25 In the time I have left, Your Honours, first, I would like to show

Page 917

1 you some video footage of those young volunteers, men and women. The

2 first footage comes from Prosecution Exhibit 2875. It's from a

3 documentary called "The City of Lost Souls."

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]


7 "UNIDENTIFIED CHETNIK: A Chetnik, a Chetnik, remember.

8 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Hey, Miso ... Miso ... Miso ...

9 We'll be Serb. It will be ours. There will be no more fascism.

10 We will no longer allow it. And they hated us. It is enough now, the

11 end."

12 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: [In English] We can only fight with them.


14 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: [In English] Why? Because they kill our

15 people, they kill our children. You have never seen the kid of 2 years

16 old with head -- with the head of the kid is on the pig, you know, and the

17 head of the pig is on the kid's body. You know what that means? Have you

18 ever seen that? No? With that people you discuss? Never. Only fight,

19 to the end, the last -- the last bullet, the last Ustasha, you know."

20 "[Interpretation] Let's go back to the company. Let's go."

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, not all wars or acts of combat are

22 illegal, but Seselj's war of words was criminal for one fundamental

23 reason. This accused exercised his right to expression for a criminal

24 purpose: to spread fear, hate, violence and suffering in the former

25 Yugoslavia, in an attempt to establish a single Serbian state, his Greater

Page 918

1 Serbia.

2 For this reason, and for all of the reasons that I have mentioned,

3 Seselj deserves to be held accountable for crimes against humanity and

4 violations of the laws or customs of war.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

6 This concludes the opening statement of the Prosecution, I take

7 it, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 Mr. Hooper, yesterday, when I asked you whether there would be any

9 opening statement, you said you could not at that moment make an opening

10 statement, and we are aware that Mr. Seselj preferred to delay the opening

11 statement; that's what he told us before. Is there any new development in

12 this respect that you'd like to report to us?

13 MR. HOOPER: Well, since yesterday, we've had no contact with

14 Dr. Seselj, so I'm not able, in fact, to add anything in respect of that.

15 There's certainly no intent on my part, as I indicated yesterday, to

16 address you this morning by way of an opening statement. Rather, I seek

17 to preserve Dr. Seselj's opportunity to do so at a later time, and I

18 sincerely hope, as I indicated yesterday, that that time will arrive. So

19 I'm not going to make any opening submissions for the Defence.

20 But for all that, it may be appropriate for me to say just a few

21 general words because of the particular and perhaps unusual position that

22 I, as assigned counsel, find myself in, and as we, as now his assigned

23 Defence team find ourselves in, and I won't take up very many minutes, if

24 you'd give me that opportunity.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that opportunity is given to you, Mr. Hooper.

Page 919

1 MR. HOOPER: Thank you.

2 Dr. Seselj, of course, is not here, and the reason that I am here,

3 as I think we all know, is because, of course, you, the Judges, supported

4 by the view of the Judges of the Appeal Chamber, took the view that

5 Dr. Seselj was being needlessly obstructive, and that in behaving in that

6 way - and I don't go into it any further than that - he was deemed not to

7 be acting in either his own interests nor that of the interests of

8 justice. And the view was taken by the Chamber, as I say, supported by

9 the Appeal Chamber, that in those circumstances, his right to

10 self-represent would be withdrawn from him, and I, together with

11 Dr. O'Shea and the others who are now assigned, would form his Defence

12 team.

13 It was felt, in short, that in the absence of his representation

14 of himself, some counsel was felt to be better than no counsel, but it's

15 not - and we all recognise this - an ideal situation; it's far from

16 ideal. And I know that both I and the other members of the assigned team,

17 together with you, the Judges, would much prefer that Dr. Seselj play as

18 full a part as possible in this, his trial, and for very good reason.

19 Dr. Seselj is, after all, charged with the most serious offences

20 and the most serious charges, as we've heard, that have just been outlined

21 by the Prosecution yesterday and this morning. He's pleaded not guilty to

22 those offences. Indeed, it's right to say that he brought himself here to

23 The Hague and surrendered himself here to The Hague in order to meet those

24 allegations and charges.

25 For all that's been said this morning, and for all that's been

Page 920

1 said from time to time in the media over the last several years, it's not

2 for him, we remind ourselves, to prove his innocence. He has not to prove

3 that he did not do what is alleged. The Prosecution have charged him and

4 brought the indictment against him, and it's for them, obviously, to

5 prove, and to a high standard, that he's committed those offences, and to

6 prove them, in short, up to the hilt. And this man we know, we all know,

7 because it is our jurisprudence, is at this stage presumed innocent of

8 these charges.

9 So as we start this trial, it's very important that you, the

10 Judges, remind yourselves that this man is at this stage to be presumed

11 innocent of these charges and that your prejudices at this stage should be

12 for him and not against him.

13 Now, he's not here. He should be here. It's essential that he

14 play as full a role in this, his trial, as he possibly can. It is, after

15 all, the only trial he is probably going to get, and he knows that, I

16 should think. He's an intelligent and perceptive man. He is a brave man,

17 too, from acts that we've seen recorded that he's done over the years.

18 And I hope that he can find the courage to lay aside his exasperations,

19 many of which may, perhaps, be justified, to lay those aside and to come

20 and confront his accusers, because I cannot do that alone. But I stress

21 that it lies in his hands and in nobody else's hands whether this trial is

22 to have the allegations met fully with his participation and whether this

23 trial is going to reach the successful conclusion that he wishes.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hooper. You told us that the present

Page 921

1 situation is far from ideal, and in two different lines, you said once

2 that you'd like Mr. Seselj to play a role, as full a role as possible, or

3 at another moment you said to play a part, as full as possible. The

4 Chamber agrees with that and the Chamber thanks you at this moment for the

5 observations you just made.

6 Then a few procedural matters before we will adjourn.

7 First of all, the Chamber received from the representative of the

8 Registry the message that Mr. Van der Spoel has been approached and that

9 talks are held to see whether he could take the role the Chamber had in

10 mind when giving its decision yesterday.

11 The second issue: The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution

12 might not pursue its motion to ask for a medical examination and is

13 considering to withdraw that motion. The Chamber would prefer this to be

14 done in writing; one or two lines could do.

15 The next item is about the witness order. The Chamber received

16 this morning a short list, called "Witness Order for the Period of 6 to 14

17 December, 2006." May I take it that this is the witness order the parties

18 agree upon?

19 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that -- and I'm just now using not

21 their names. That means the first one, being VS-1133; second one,

22 VS-1136; the third, VS-1134; the fourth, VS-1135; then one witness by

23 videolink. I think at this moment it could only be VS-053, because no

24 decisions have yet been taken in respect of VS-1141. Sixth on the list is

25 VS-017, and seventh is the expert witness, Ewa Tabeau.

Page 922

1 Mr. Hooper, yesterday, the Prosecution filed additional

2 information in respect of Witness 1141, but that was mainly focussing on a

3 videolink. There is a motion which also asks for variance of protective

4 measures. If you'd still like to respond to that, you will have an

5 opportunity to do so, of course, if you'd like to respond now, because I

6 don't think we received any early response. But I'm not quite sure that

7 the motion was translated and brought to the attention of Mr. Seselj. I

8 must even assume that it has not been done. Therefore, if you'd like to

9 respond to that, if could be done, I take it, only in private session at

10 least, if you would like to go to the content of it.

11 MR. HOOPER: Would Your Honour just give me a moment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hooper.

15 MR. HOOPER: We would still prefer that positive medical evidence

16 be provided in respect of that witness, that he be seen -- I'm sorry. I'm

17 sorry. Can you give me one moment.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would prefer to do it in writing this

19 afternoon, then, of course, we would --

20 MR. HOOPER: Yes, in the circumstances, we will. There's a

21 certain amount of confusion, I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps even before official filing, a courtesy

23 copy to the Prosecution and perhaps even a message to the legal officers

24 of the Chamber might expedite decision-making on the matter.

25 MR. HOOPER: I'm sorry. We're talking about the same witness but

Page 923

1 a different measure. There's no objection to face and voice distortion.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's then clear. I have to look

3 exactly whether that is what additionally had been asked. I think it

4 was. Yes, I see nodding from the side of the Prosecution.

5 There's one issue I'd like to briefly mention.

6 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. While we're

7 still on the topic of witnesses.


9 MR. SAXON: Just to inform the Chamber, yesterday I raised the

10 matter of the scope of the testimony of expert witness Dr. Ewa Tabeau,

11 should we reach her in December, and yesterday, there was discussions

12 amongst the parties, and after full and frank and earnest negotiations, it

13 was decided that if Ms. Tabeau testifies in December, the evidence will

14 only pertain to her expert report related to migrations from Vojvodina, in

15 particular, the town of Hrtkovci. So she would testify at another time

16 about her Bosnia report.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you said that -- that it was decided

19 that she would testify. I take it that you said so in anticipation that

20 the Chamber would agree.

21 MR. SAXON: That is absolutely correct, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber agrees.

23 MR. HOOPER: Can I just indicate that it wasn't until yesterday

24 that we had access to the exhibits of VS-054, all the exhibits, and it

25 wasn't until last night that I was able to complete reading them. Our

Page 924

1 position on VS-054 is, therefore, open to discussion. The Prosecution had

2 sought his attendance in the first session, and I don't burden the Chamber

3 more with that, merely to indicate that by the time we leave here this

4 morning, with your blessing, we will confirm one way or the other the full

5 ordering of witnesses.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. VS-054 is not at this moment on the list that

7 was agreed upon, but I do understand that it would be a replacement, if

8 there are any slots. Is that correct? But the parties still have to

9 discuss that.

10 MR. SAXON: If that became necessary, we would certainly do our

11 best to bring VS-054 here, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but is not -- this witness is not on the list a

13 this moment, so we do not at this moment expect anything.

14 MR. SAXON: Correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: But the Chamber will consider the present situation.

16 We have now seven people on the list.

17 I have not left yet the area of witnesses. The Chamber noticed

18 that last week, at least it was told to us yesterday, there had been a

19 communication between the Prosecution and Mr. Hooper/Mr. O'Shea relating

20 to the order of witnesses. The Chamber noticed that that was at the time

21 when Mr. Seselj was still self-represented. Therefore, the appropriate

22 way of dealing and discussing the order of witnesses at that time would

23 have been with Mr. Seselj, because I take it it was not during the Status

24 Conference that such communication took place. Of course, meanwhile, the

25 procedural situation has changed and therefore we'll proceed on the basis

Page 925

1 as -- meanwhile, after last week's communication, on the basis of the

2 agreement reached between the parties which now has been approved by the

3 Chamber.

4 I just want to stress how important it is always to act exactly in

5 the context of the then-existing procedural situation, as far as

6 representation is concerned.

7 Is there any other matter the parties want to raise at this

8 moment? Because if we adjourn today, it will be until the 6th of

9 December, when the Chamber expects that the first witnesses will be

10 called.

11 I see nodding "no." I take that as a negative answer from the

12 Prosecution side.

13 Mr. Hooper.

14 MR. HOOPER: Give me one moment.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. HOOPER: There are no other matters. Thank you.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until the 6th of December, quarter

19 past 2.00 in the afternoon, same courtroom.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.33 a.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

22 December, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.