Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2293

 1                          Tuesday, 15 January 2008

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 8.29 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court].

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 6    call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 8    is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is Tuesday, January 15,

10    2008, and I welcome everyone in the courtroom, people from the

11    Prosecution, Mr. Seselj, and all those helping us.

12            So first and foremost I would like to tell Mr. Seselj, maybe he

13    already knows this, maybe he doesn't, that the panel of three Judges

14    appointed by the President has decided to dismiss the Prosecution's

15    motion.  Yesterday the President gave an order regarding this dismissal.

16    The procedure thus stands as it is and we can now go on.

17            Mr. Seselj, you will obtain in your own language translation of

18    this decision that was drafted in English.  It was filed yesterday in the

19    evening, so -- which is why it could be translated overnight.  But I --

20    you know now exactly what this order is about.  The motion is dismissed

21    and Judge Harhoff is on the Bench and stays on the Bench.

22            Before we bring the witness into the courtroom I have four items

23    to discuss.  I would like Mr. Seselj to listen carefully because this

24    deals with documents that he sent to the Trial Chamber.

25            Firstly, document 334 drafted by Mr. Seselj on November 2nd, 2007,

Page 2294

 1    and filed on November 8, 2008 [as interpreted].  In this document the

 2    accused was answering the notice -- the notice sent by the Prosecution

 3    regarding the order of the witnesses.  The order of the witnesses has been

 4    changed since then, and this is why motion 334 is now moot.

 5            Secondly, document 350, this was drafted by Mr. Seselj on December

 6    4, 2007, and filed on December 10, 2007.  On December 4, 2007, Mr. Seselj

 7    was raising the following items in this document -- was raising several

 8    documents -- several items, and the Chamber -- the Trial Chamber will not

 9    deal with the two first items that have to do with protected witness.  But

10    regarding item number 3, the Trial Chamber would like to give its

11    position, regarding the disclosure of possibly exculpatory documents,

12    exhibits, according to Rule 68.  On November 5, 2007, in its second

13    decision dealing with requirements of Prosecution under Rule 68, the

14    Chamber had ordered as follows, and I will quote this decision and I will

15    read slowly:  "Prosecution must disclose as quickly as possible in hard

16    copy and in a language understood by the witness [as interpreted] the --

17    some 3.000 documents that Prosecution has identified using key words given

18    by the accused."

19            Therefore, in the submission 350, Mr. Seselj submits that

20    Prosecution did not meet its requirement under this decision, since a

21    great number of documents have not been translated into Serbian and since

22    other documents are only excerpts.  The Trial Chamber is thus asking

23    Prosecution to reply on this point in writing, make a written submission,

24    before Friday, January 18.

25            Thirdly, dealing with document 358, document 358 was drafted on

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 1    December 11, 2007, by Mr. Seselj and filed on February 2nd, 2008.  In

 2    document 358 Mr. Seselj was asking leave for the ex parte status to be

 3    lifted regarding all documents and all appendices produced by

 4    Prosecution.  The very general nature of this -- of submission 358 makes

 5    it impossible for the Trial Chamber at the moment to examine the merits of

 6    this submission.  Trial Chamber would like to underscore that it is not up

 7    to the Trial Chamber to look into all the documents and to search all

 8    these documents to try and find out those who were disclosed to the

 9    accused and those who were not disclosed to the accused.  It is up to the

10    accused to be very precise and accurate in his submission.  The Trial

11    Chamber is thus asking Mr. Seselj to make a more accurate submission

12    regarding what it is complaining about.  And Mr. Seselj should just

13    therefore give us his observations before January 18.

14            Fourthly, and this item deals with the witness that we are about

15    to hear, Trial Chamber is recalling its decision of January 1st -- January

16    7th, 2008, on the consolidated motion.  It dismissed the Prosecution's

17    request requesting the written statement to -- of this witness to be

18    admitted according to Rule 92 ter, which is why the witness that we're

19    about to hear will testify viva voce and not testify according to Rule 92

20    ter.

21            These were the four points that I wanted to cover.

22            Mr. Seselj.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to

24    present a few problems with the wish of having these problems resolved

25    before the next witnesses come in.  It is not a problem related to this

Page 2296

 1    particular witness but to the one coming right after this witness, and I'm

 2    referring to the period of the next few weeks.  The next witness is

 3    VS-004, the witness after this one, that is.  I received his statement

 4    dated the 14th of August, 2006.  That is an abbreviated version of the

 5    statement given on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of May, 2002; however, I

 6    received that one in redacted form.  You see how many blackened portions

 7    there are there.  I never received that statement in its entirety.  You

 8    see, an entire page, for instance.  I require the entire statement so that

 9    I can prepare properly for examining witness VS-004 and I want to get that

10    as soon as possible.

11            Also, you told me that you rejected lifting the seal from the

12    documents submitted by the Government of the Republic of Serbia in

13    relation to the documents that the OTP received from the current state

14    security agency.  It is document 426 -- it is 426 documents that are in

15    question.  I want the Prosecution to submit all these documents to me as

16    soon as possible.  I want to have a set of these documents in its entirety

17    so that I could prepare for a public hearing that would be attended by a

18    representative of the Government of Serbia.  I oppose having a seal of

19    confidentiality on these documents.  They can be very important for me

20    because they say what kind of measures the regime in Serbia applied

21    towards me personally and the Serb Radical Party in 1991, 1992, and 1993,

22    that is to say, the time relevant to the indictment.  Therefore, it is

23    impossible that I was in some kind of a joint criminal enterprise with the

24    top people of that regime.  On the one hand they are working against me

25    and on the other hand I am in a joint criminal enterprise with them.

Page 2297

 1            I also want to tell you that a few days ago I was threatened by

 2    the Registrar that new restrictive measures would be imposed on me because

 3    my congratulations sent to Vladimir Putin was published in the Belgrade

 4    newspaper Pravda and I congratulated him on the victory of his party in

 5    the elections held in Russia.  So please prevent the Registrar from doing

 6    that.  I don't have a fax here on the premises, so can I please receive

 7    during breaks, during the course of the day, documents from my

 8    associates.  Today it is indispensable for me to receive some 20 or 30

 9    documents from my associates around 10.00, so could you please instruct

10    the guards to take me to an office in this building where I can receive

11    these documents by fax.  There is no other way of doing this.

12            For January and February the OTP announced 16 witnesses.  Eight of

13    them are Defence witnesses and they are not going to respond to

14    Prosecution summons unless you bring them in by force.

15            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note that the speaker should speak

16    slower.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One witness died in September 2007.

18    How are they going to organize that?  Perhaps they're going to organize it

19    via videolink.  I have a introduce a note of black humour because

20    obviously, the Prosecution does not even know that that witness died.  The

21    Prosecution informed me that they would raise that on the session of the

22    8th of November, that is to say that some documents in relation to Rule 65

23    ter should be admitted directly into evidence.  First I got a list of

24    these documents and then the documents themselves.  I prepared myself for

25    that session, I brought five boxes of these documents here, you may

Page 2298

 1    remember, the guards were carrying all of that behind me; however, nothing

 2    came out of it, this did not happen on the 8th.  I want to rule out any

 3    possibility of having these documents admitted without me stating my

 4    views, and I have to state my views in a public session.  I will not have

 5    any objections in relation to some documents, but I will have objections

 6    in relation to others.

 7            I also want to say something about Reynaud Theunens, an expert

 8    witness who is supposed to testify.  Two hours were planned by the

 9    Prosecution for him, whereas I will require five hours.  I will require

10    five hours for re-examination because his expert report is 400 pages; that

11    is very important for me, that is a very important Prosecution witness for

12    me.  So I ask you in advance that you give me that time and then you can

13    take it off other witnesses' time.  You will have other witnesses that

14    will not come and also the witness who's dead, so you can save time there.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16            Mrs. Dahl maybe would like to answer quickly.  There were six

17    items that were mentioned --

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Seven I think.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

20    continues]... immediately.  The question of the faxes your associates will

21    send around 10.30.  I believe that your associates have a fax number and

22    the fax will come to the Tribunal and registrar will bring you these

23    documents over the break.  So normally you should not have any problems

24    with this -- have with this fax communication with your associates.

25            There are two other items that did not call for any comments by

Page 2299

 1    the Prosecution.  You talked about restrictive measures in your mentioning

 2    your congratulations to Vladimir Putin.  It is true that I read this in

 3    your submissions.  I'm a bit surprised this led to problems.  After all,

 4    you're entitled to send your greetings to whoever you want.  I do not

 5    really understand the registry's position.  Of course the Trial Chamber

 6    will look into this.

 7            Now, regarding the other items, I'm sure Mrs. Dahl has an opinion.

 8            Mrs. Dahl, would you like to take the floor?

 9            MS. DAHL:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will take them in the order

10    that the accused raised them.  I will look into the question regarding

11    redactions in the witness statement of VS-004.  I will note that the

12    decision rejecting the motion pursuant to 89(F), 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92

13    quater requires a wholesale revision of the Prosecution's estimates on how

14    to present its case and the number of hours that would be required for

15    each witness.  We are looking at the effect of the decision, including the

16    invitation to resubmit applications in respect of identified witnesses.  I

17    would note that the Prosecution's estimates regarding the time required to

18    present its case were uniformly based on the anticipation that we would

19    have the ability to tender evidence in writing that was adopted by the

20    witnesses pursuant to the Rules.

21            Yesterday we filed a request with the Chamber to enlarge the time

22    in which we may seek certification for leave to appeal.  One of the bases

23    for that request was rendered moot by the rejection of the application

24    under Rule 15.  The other basis is to avoid a piecemeal litigation because

25    the decision pronounces that it is not final.  There are other

Page 2300

 1    applications for which the Chamber is waiting to rule based on anticipated

 2    responses from the accused.

 3            So we would like to wait to make our application for certification

 4    to appeal the decision until we have a final order that disposes of all

 5    the matters in a consolidated manner.  I think --

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl, yes, could you please

 7    tell us exactly, have I listened to you and I'm a bit lost.  I don't

 8    understand.  We rendered a decision regarding your motions 89(F), 92 bis,

 9    92 ter, and 92 quater.  A decision has been rendered on this.  So either

10    this decision suits you; or if it doesn't suit you, ask for a

11    certification of appeal, that's one thing.  Okay.

12            Secondly, you are saying that this decision will have consequences

13    on the time needed for -- to present your case, and therefore either you

14    have or you are going to submit a motion for additional time.  Well, the

15    Trial Chamber did not get this.  Of course the Trial Chamber will render

16    its decision on this and of course you will be allowed here to request a

17    certification of appeal.  So you've -- when you mentioned this

18    certification of appeal, what did it deal with exactly, could you tell us?

19            MS. DAHL:  What I filed yesterday was a motion for extension of

20    time because I considered that it would be prudent to await the final

21    disposition of the remaining items because the decision itself says that

22    it's not final, that there is more judicial work to be done.  We haven't

23    requested more time to enlarge the presentation of the Prosecution's case

24    consequent upon this decision because we need to take it under advisement

25    and look at the case as a whole to see how it would affect the witnesses.

Page 2301

 1    With regard to the witness today, I anticipate that I'll need more than

 2    the four hours I've already estimated, but we had made all of our

 3    estimates based on the ability to put most of our evidence in in dossier

 4    format, meaning in writing, under the procedures available under the

 5    Rules.

 6            Does that answer your question sufficiently?

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Somewhat, yet thank you.  Could

 8    you please continue.

 9            MS. DAHL:  Consequent upon the decision, we will be adjusting the

10    time we need to examine Mr. Theunens' report.  I don't have any objection

11    to enlarging the time that Mr. Seselj needs to cross-examine him.  I don't

12    have a response to his request for the set of the documents, a specific

13    set of the documents from the Republic of Serbia.  My understanding is

14    that we've already completely disclosed all of those materials.  I'll need

15    to research that because I'm not exactly sure what he's asking for, and if

16    Mr. Seselj has information to which the Prosecution is not privy regarding

17    the death of a witness, I'd kindly ask him to inform us so that we avoid

18    wasting time.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20            MS. DAHL:  I will prepare a new production schedule now that we're

21    back in session to try to confirm witnesses' availabilities.  Mr. VS-004

22    was available to testify last week.  I need to put into place a new

23    production schedule with the witnesses updated.

24            We had subpoenaed two witnesses to appear the first week in

25    January, as the Court is aware, they sent -- the memorandum of service

Page 2302

 1    indicates that they wish safe conduct orders.  I filed motions for those

 2    to resolve that concern and make it possible for them to travel.  The

 3    remainder of their requests are not within the policy and protocol of the

 4    Tribunal.  I conferred with the Victims and Witnesses Section and

 5    understand that none of the requests by the witnesses can be satisfied.  I

 6    don't think that they prevent enforcement of the subpoena and I would

 7    request the Chamber to issue a ruling on the safe conduct orders so that

 8    we can then enforce the subpoenas as quickly as possible and give those

 9    witnesses a new appearance date and make the travel arrangements that are

10    necessary.

11            Finally, I want to ask the Chamber to please address the use of

12    the DVDs that the accused receives at the conclusion of every session.

13    They are posted on Mr. Seselj's web site.  That in itself does not present

14    any problems.  My concern is that if we go into closed session that he is

15    not permitted to distribute those disks or publish them on the web site,

16    and I don't want to find out about this problem, frankly, in arrears.  I

17    would like to make sure this doesn't happen in advance.  It's not for a

18    legitimate investigative purpose to disclose these CDs.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me immediately

20    ask you this.  I am discovering that there is this new problem and I did

21    not know about it.  The DVDs of the hearings, everything that is recorded

22    here, are disclosed to you.  It seems that you have a web site and

23    everything is posted on the web site, but then we run into a huge

24    problem.  When we have a closed hearing it is totally impossible to

25    publish or make public what was said in closed session.  So what exactly

Page 2303

 1    do you do in this respect, Mr. Seselj?

 2            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It happens, Mr. President, that

 3    Madam Dahl invents a problem sometimes, perhaps due to idleness.  I

 4    receive a DVD with the recording of the entire proceedings.  Apart from

 5    the DVD from the beginning of the trial, the opening statement of the

 6    Prosecution and my own statement, I have not had time to send a single DVD

 7    to Belgrade; they're still in my cell.  Never have I placed any of the

 8    DVDs received from the registry on my internet web site.  My collaborators

 9    in Belgrade post on my web site exclusively recordings broadcast on

10    Serbian State Television.  I don't know whether you're aware that the

11    Serbian State Television gave the recording of the beginning of the trial

12    and Anton Oberschall's statement or testimony, it was broadcast after

13    10.00 p.m.  My collaborators take this from the TV and put it on my web

14    site.  Madam Dahl is creating a problem where there is no problem because

15    I have never broadcast a single tiny little part of any closed session.

16            Secondly, as for the other issues raised by Madam Dahl, may I

17    state what I think of them?

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if you have a DVD

19    with part of the recording that was in closed session, you will not

20    disclose this to the public, you will not make it public, right?

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not a child, Judge.  Why would I

22    deny myself certain rights in these proceedings by violating certain

23    prohibitions?  The only people I give this to is -- are my collaborators,

24    and it will not be broadcast anywhere unless a protective measure is

25    abolished.  The only recordings broadcast on my internet site are those

Page 2304

 1    from the state television of Serbia.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is very clear.

 3    So what else did you want to say as a reply?

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for what Madam Dahl has said, I

 5    have received the text of the Prosecution motion for safe conduct, but I'm

 6    waiting for the Chamber to hand down its decision concerning the objection

 7    raised by the witnesses who have been issued by -- with a subpoena by

 8    you.  They have stated that they are my witnesses, not Prosecution

 9    witnesses.  If you force them to come, they will come, they won't flee;

10    but if they come, if they're coerced into coming, they will continue to

11    behave as Defence witnesses and they will refuse any contact or

12    conversation with the OTP.  These are witnesses that were interviewed a

13    long time ago by the OTP as potential suspects, and that is the capacity

14    in which they made their statements.  I have not received the transcript

15    of a single one of these interviews.  They have to be disclosed to me but

16    they haven't been disclosed.

17            These people do not wish to be Prosecution witnesses; they want to

18    testify as my witnesses, and they have stated that explicitly.  They speak

19    out in public in Serbia.  I will not mention their names because here they

20    are considered to be protected witnesses, but they have made statements

21    for the newspapers.  They have certified in court their statements that

22    they do not wish to be Prosecution witnesses but Defence witnesses.  The

23    issue now is whether you will allow them to appear here as Prosecution --

24    as Defence witnesses.

25            In 2005 I contacted VS-011, and he gave me part of his interview

Page 2305

 1    with the OTP and I published this in my book entitled:  "The Devil's

 2    Disciple, the Criminal Pope, John Paul II."  He gave that to me and I

 3    published it.  I had no idea at the time that the Prosecution was counting

 4    on him as a Prosecution witness.  His name was disclosed to me at the end

 5    of last year, two years after that event, up until that time I had already

 6    agreed with him that he would appear here as a Defence witness.  The case

 7    of the others is similar, so don't allow the Prosecution to take these

 8    witnesses away from me.

 9            As for the Serbian government statement, it's true that the

10    Prosecution disclosed to me some of these statements but not all.  There

11    are 426 documents in total and there -- the list of these documents is in

12    two parts.  The motion of the Government of Serbia has two annexes, one

13    containing 27 documents and the other one 399.  I want to receive the

14    entire set of these documents before there is a discussion on the Serbian

15    government motion.  These documents are extremely important to me.  Some

16    of them are supposed to prove criminal conduct of mine, alleged criminal

17    conduct, but no Court can accept this as evidence anywhere, in Italy, in

18    Denmark, or anywhere, and they cannot be considered evidence under an

19    Anglo-Saxon law either, but they are important to me because they show

20    that the regime used repressive measures against me and my collaborators

21    in 1991, 1992, 1993, in all the years relevant for the indictment.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Out of the 426 documents, the

23    Trial Chamber has been seized as to the issue of confidentiality of the

24    documents.  We shall issue a decision, but that's not the urgent problem.

25    The urgent problem seems to be that there is a first batch of 27 documents

Page 2306

 1    and a second batch of 399 documents.  Mr. Seselj wants to have them, and

 2    you said that you had disclosed them to you, I don't know.  Did you give

 3    it all?  You are the only one to know.

 4            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, we gave Mr. Seselj copies of the documents

 5    we intend to use as evidence in this case.  As far as I'm aware, this is

 6    his first request to review all of them and I would treat that as a

 7    request for disclosure under Rule 66 and proceed accordingly.  I don't see

 8    any impediment to ruling on a request to add that subset of documents to

 9    our exhibit list.

10            I would like to go into private session for a moment to discuss

11    one remaining issue concerning a confidential filing.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session, please.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

14            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session.

15            MS. DAHL:  Mr. Seselj has made a motion to investigate me under

16    Rule 77 for contempt.  I would like direction from the Chamber whether the

17    Prosecution should file a response or not.  I don't presently see an

18    impediment to me continuing to lead the case.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is indeed a motion that

20    has been filed against you.  The Trial Chamber is going to hand down a

21    decision.  You are free to file a response if you wish to, no problem to

22    that.  We are going to issue a decision, that goes without saying.  For

23    the time being you are present here, but you are free to answer, to

24    respond to the filing by Mr. Seselj if you wish to, but you have to do so

25    quickly if you want to because we are to issue this decision shortly.

Page 2307

 1            Let's move back to open session, please, and we're going to have

 2    the witness brought in.

 3            Open session, please.

 4                          [Open session]

 5            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, we are now in open session.

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, I only wish to submit a

 7    motion to the Trial Chamber for this closed session or private session to

 8    be declared public because there's nothing in there that the public is not

 9    supposed to know.  The fact that I submitted a criminal report against

10    Madam Dahl is public.  Not a single detail has been mentioned here that

11    should be concealed from the public, so I move that this part of the

12    proceedings be made public.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [No interpretation].

14            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'm not getting any English

15    interpretation.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I repeat.  You had initially

17    four hours for this witness.  Earlier on you said you needed an extension

18    of time.  How much more time do you want?

19            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I think it would take me eight hours to go

20    through the documents we had foreseen and the full breadth of the witness

21    statement.  If I can use the time today and give you a better estimate

22    tomorrow.  There's a lot of detailed information in the statement we had

23    foreseen to tender.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll see.  We'll see how it all

25    unfolds, because if you're given eight hours that means that Mr. Seselj is

Page 2308

 1    going to be given eight hours as well.  So the witness would stay here

 2    basically next week as well.  So that's the situation as we find it.  I

 3    don't know at all this witness.  I don't know at all how the situation is

 4    going to unfold.  So we'll see as we go along.

 5            Let's have the witness brought in for the solemn declaration,

 6    Mr. Usher.

 7                          [The witness entered court]

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  Let me first

 9    check that you can hear me in your own language.  If you hear the

10    interpretation say, I understand.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand you.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're going to make

13    the solemn declaration.  You need to stand up to do so.  For the

14    transcript could you please state your name, first name and date of birth.

15            One moment, please.  Before, you have to give your name, your

16    first name and your date of birth.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Stoparic, the 17th of January,

18    1968.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a current occupation

20    or not?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have my own company, my

22    enterprise.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Have you had an

24    opportunity to testify before an international court of law as to the

25    events that took place in the former Yugoslavia or before a national

Page 2309

 1    court, or is this the first time you're going to testify?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is not the first time I'm

 3    testifying.  I've already testified before this Tribunal and in two war

 4    crimes trials in Serbia.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you've testified

 6    here already, in which case?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milutinovic et al.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you testified twice in

 9    Serbia.  In which cases did you testify?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Podujevo case and the Skorpions

11    case.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  Please

13    make the solemn declaration.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  Please be

17    seated.

18            Some preliminary information as to the way the testimony is going

19    to take place.  You'll have to answer questions put to you by Ms. Dahl.  I

20    suppose you have met her as part of your preparation for this hearing.

21    Ms. Dahl will use some time to put questions to you and she will submit

22    documents to you.  When you answer questions, please try to be specific

23    and clear in your answers.  Once this is over, Mr. Seselj, who's sitting

24    on your left, he's the accused, he's going to put questions to you as well

25    as part of what is termed the cross-examination.  He will, therefore, ask

Page 2310

 1    questions of you on the topics raised during examination-in-chief.

 2            You have three Judges in front of you; at any time they're free to

 3    ask questions as per the Rules.  Technically we'd rather wait until all

 4    parties have asked their questions, but sometimes when a document is

 5    submitted to all in court it may be that one of the Judges wants to put a

 6    question about it in order to avoid having to deal with it again later on

 7    in order not to waste time.

 8            We usually have breaks every hour and a half for 20 minutes for

 9    you to have a rest and also to put in new tapes.  If at any time you do

10    not feel well, don't hesitate, tell us you want to have a break.  That can

11    happen, unfortunately.  If you have a question you want to put to the

12    Bench, if you feel the need to do so, again do not hesitate to say so.

13            So there it is.

14            Ms. Dahl, you have the floor.

15            MS. DAHL:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                          WITNESS:  GORAN STOPARIC

17                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                          Examination by Ms. Dahl:

19       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, have you ever served in the military?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   When did you join the military service and what service did you

22    join?

23       A.   I did my military service in 1987.  That was then the JNA.  I

24    served in Pristina.

25       Q.   How long did you serve beginning in 1987?

Page 2311

 1       A.   One year.

 2       Q.   Did you volunteer for military service at some point in time

 3    afterwards?

 4       A.   I don't understand your question.

 5       Q.   Were you in the military in 1991?

 6       A.   I was a volunteer.

 7       Q.   Can you describe for me how it was you decided to become a

 8    volunteer?

 9       A.   In 1991 I simply decided to become a volunteer.  How?  Well, there

10    were different factors influencing my decision.  The political situation,

11    the situation in society, the media.  I considered that my people were

12    under threat.

13       Q.   Do you -- have you ever heard speeches by Mr. Seselj during 1991?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   What were the subjects of the speeches you heard from Mr. Seselj?

16       A.   In 1991, Mr. Seselj held many speeches.  He held many speeches in

17    his political career.  In 1991 he explained - how can I put this

18    briefly? - that there might again be a genocide against the Serbs.  He

19    spoke of the separation of Croatia, the status of the Serbs in Croatia.

20    That was it in general.

21       Q.   Are you familiar with a concept called Greater Serbia?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   What is it?

24       A.   What it is exactly, I don't know, but I do know that it was one of

25    the standpoints in the programme of the Serbian Radical Party.

Page 2312

 1       Q.   Where were you living in 1991?

 2       A.   In Srem, the town of Sid.

 3       Q.   Did Mr. Seselj have a political party with offices in Sid in 1991?

 4       A.   Committees?  I don't understand.  In 1991 the Serbian Radical

 5    Party in Sid was set up.  I don't know the date, but I know that it was

 6    founded in Milenko Petric's house.

 7       Q.   Did you learn of a call for volunteers by the Serbian Radical

 8    Party in 1991?

 9       A.   Yes, but the call did not come only from the Serbian Radical

10    Party.  I did learn of it, yes.

11       Q.   Who else gave that call?

12       A.   Various politicians.  Before Mr. Seselj the Serbian national

13    interests were mentioned first by Vuk Draskovic, to the best of my

14    recollection.  He spoke of it in a different way than the Serbian Radical

15    Party did, but he was one of those who spoke of it at the time.

16       Q.   How did Mr. Seselj speak of the Serbian national interests?

17       A.   I don't understand what you mean by "how."

18       Q.   What did he say about them?  What did he say should be done to

19    effect them?

20       A.   What did he say?  Well, everybody knows what he said.  He said

21    that the Serbs were imperilled, that the new Croatian authorities did not

22    have good intentions as regards the Serbs, that if the Croats were leaving

23    Yugoslavia, the Serbs in Croatia had the right to remain in Yugoslavia.

24       Q.   How did you react to hearing this information?

25       A.   Well, you see, while I was young and went to school in Serbia, we

Page 2313

 1    learned a lot of things in school about World War II, about the Ustasha,

 2    about the Chetniks, although at that time we saw them as identical.  The

 3    Ustasha and the Chetniks were equated by the then-communist authorities.

 4    They called them domestic traitors, but we knew quite a lot about the

 5    Ustasha crimes and atrocities.  We even learned about some atrocities

 6    committed by the Chetniks.  So we knew many things.  As citizens --

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're now dealing with

 8    a question that I deem important.  You are now speaking about the fact

 9    that Ustashas and Chetniks had been mentioned.  I'd like to know this:

10    When young people of your generation would go to school in the communist

11    era, did you have history classes?  For instance, did you have classes on

12    what happened during the Second World War?  I mean, you went to school

13    like everybody.  Can you answer this question?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We learned everything about

15    World War II and not just on the territory of Yugoslavia.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You answered my question.  Thank

17    you.

18            Please proceed, Ms. Dahl.

19            MS. DAHL:

20       Q.   What is meant by the term "Chetniks," from what you learned in

21    school?

22       A.   Based on what I learned in school, to say -- to speak the

23    word "Chetnik" was prohibited in a way, as was the word "Ustasha."  We

24    learned that they were domestic traitors.  In historical terms, as far as

25    I know, in World War II the Chetniks were the Serbian royalist army under

Page 2314

 1    the command of Draza Mihajlovic.  They were the homeland army, but the

 2    people referred to them as Chetniks and this may have been due to their

 3    methods of fighting.  They were a form of guerilla, and the word "Chetnik"

 4    refers to companies, military units, and the Ustasha were in the

 5    independent state of Croatia as it was then called.

 6       Q.   Did you hear or learn from listening to Mr. Seselj's speeches a

 7    new definition of "Chetnik"?

 8       A.   Well, you see, as I told you, in school we all learned what the

 9    Chetniks were and what the Ustasha were, but as a Serb I also heard about

10    this from my father at home, and what he told me was not the same as what

11    I learned in school and the same happened with the Croats.  So I didn't

12    hear anything new about the Chetniks from Mr. Seselj, but historical

13    facts, dates, and so on, Mr. Seselj knew a lot of that better than all the

14    rest of us did.

15       Q.   And how did he describe Chetniks?

16       A.   Chetniks, in a word:  Patriots.

17       Q.   Were you inspired by his view of Chetniks?

18       A.   Of course.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in the speeches of the

20    time, in 1991, on Chetniks, was Mr. Seselj the only one to speak about

21    these patriots or were there other politicians who would also speak about

22    it?  Was this a -- an issue that only Mr. Seselj dealt with:  Chetniks

23    equals patriots?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wouldn't say that only

25    Mr. Seselj spoke about this.  Quite simply, a few years before all these

Page 2315

 1    events it had been a taboo topic, not to be spoken of in public.  However,

 2    in 1991 the situation changed and will one could speak about this in

 3    public.  No, Mr. Seselj was not the only one to speak about it.  I always

 4    mention Vuk Draskovic as well because he referred to this many times.

 5    Every year they went to Ravna Gora where they erected a monument to

 6    General Draza Mihajlovic.

 7            MS. DAHL:

 8       Q.   What was happening in Yugoslavia in the middle of 1991 politically

 9    in terms of the republics?

10       A.   Some of the republics declared secession, first Slovenia, then

11    Croatia, and after that Bosnia-Herzegovina too.

12       Q.   Can you describe briefly the process of your volunteering for

13    military service again in 1991?

14       A.   I became a volunteer by applying to the Territorial Defence of

15    Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  They had an office in my town, and

16    quite simply one afternoon I went there, I brought my personal documents,

17    my military booklet, and I applied.  On the following day they gave me

18    weapons and two days later I was already in action attacking the village

19    of Tovarnik.

20       Q.   Did you receive any training before you were put into action?

21       A.   I only checked that the weapons I was issued with were in good

22    order.

23       Q.   Let me ask you to take a look at 65 ter Exhibit Number 32.  That

24    will show up on your screen.

25       A.   Yes, I can see my military booklet.

Page 2316

 1       Q.   Can you tell me what that is.

 2       A.   Well, we call it military booklet.  It's a document which every

 3    citizen of the then-Yugoslavia had to have.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl, you speak about

 5    document number 32.  Which document is it in your folder, in your binder?

 6            MS. DAHL:  It should be the first one.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.  Thank you.

 8            For it to be clear, please say that the document is the first one

 9    in the binder.  It will be easier for us to follow.

10            MS. DAHL:

11       Q.   Is the record of your service contained in the booklet?

12       A.   Yes.

13            MS. DAHL:  I'd like to move this into evidence.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall decide just with one

15    decision.  We're not going to give the floor to the deputy each time.  We

16    do note that you asked for this to be moved into evidence, but we will

17    make a decision later on.

18            MS. DAHL:

19       Q.   How long did your status as a Territorial Defence volunteer last?

20       A.   In the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western

21    Srem?  Usually when you just refer to the TO, then it would not refer to

22    Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem; it would be more like the regular TO

23    in Serbia or the Yugoslav TO.  However, at that time the territory of

24    Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem established its own TO, so that's why

25    it was called what it was.  I think I remained there about two weeks,

Page 2317

 1    maybe even less.

 2       Q.   Who established the TO for south-western Baranja and Western

 3    Slavonia?

 4       A.   Who established it?  Well, at that time there was some body in

 5    that field -- well, not in the sense of a government or I don't know what,

 6    but something like a Crisis Staff, whatever, they established it.

 7       Q.   What coordinated the distribution of your weapons?

 8       A.   You mean the first weapon I got --

 9       Q.   Yes.

10       A.   -- as a member of the Territorial Defence?  I got a weapon at a

11    military facility in Sid.  It was a temporary military facility of the

12    Yugoslav People's Army.  They gave us weapons.

13       Q.   Did you form into platoons and squads?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Were there other volunteers arriving in Sid to serve?

16       A.   Quite a few people came, mostly from Vojvodina.

17       Q.   Did the JNA have a barracks there at the time?

18       A.   No, no, it was a civilian building that they took up, so it was a

19    temporary facility then; but right now it is a permanent military

20    facility.

21       Q.   Was there a conflict going on in Vukovar at the time?

22       A.   At that time the conflict in Vukovar had begun.  Soldiers in the

23    barracks were under a blockade.  An action was prepared for deblocking the

24    barracks.  I'm talking about those two weeks while I was among the

25    Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Page 2318

 1       Q.   You said before you went into action at the village of Tovarnik.

 2    What was the purpose of taking that village?

 3       A.   What was the purpose of taking it?  Well, the purpose of taking it

 4    is to take control of that area.  The village of Tovarnik is very close to

 5    me.  Well, the population was half-half Serb and Croat before the war.  I

 6    don't know what the situation is now.  Quite simply, it's on the road to

 7    Vukovar.  If you want to reach Vukovar to deblock the barracks and to take

 8    the city, you have to control all the access routes to town, and Tovarnik

 9    is only the first village on that route.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, there's an item

11    that we need to understand.  While I was listening to you I was looking at

12    your military record, your military booklet, because a military booklet is

13    something that gives a lot of information.  You know exactly what the

14    holder did.  So this concept of volunteer, I believe it's quite a problem

15    because you go to the Territorial Defence, you show your military booklet,

16    and at this moment did the Territorial Defence keep your military

17    booklet?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no one has the right to take

19    away your military booklet.  When you are in uniform that is the only ID

20    you have.  You're always supposed to have your military booklet on you.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me what date

22    exactly you went to the Territorial Defence, since two days later you were

23    in front of the village of Tovarnik.  So when did you go to the

24    Territorial Defence?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was September 1991, the

Page 2319

 1    beginning.  I don't know exactly.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your military booklet there

 3    is a column on participation to combat.  There are four entries:  June 13,

 4    1993; June 23, 1993; then April 14, 1992; April 28, 1992; then July 8,

 5    1992; October 8, 1992; and then October 8, 1992; and December -- 9

 6    December 1992.  But there's nothing for 1991 in this military booklet.

 7    Could you please tell us why there's no mention of 1991 in this booklet?

 8            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, if I may, I have the original booklet

 9    here, if I can give that to the witness so he can look through the pages

10    you're flipping through.  This bears the same evidence registration

11    numbers that appear in the exhibit that is in electronic form.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

13            So this is our question:  Why is it that the period when you were

14    in the TO is not on your military booklet?  There's no entry of this on

15    your military booklet.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we see in this military

17    booklet that the person who created this military booklet created it in

18    such a way by putting only four possibilities, four options of

19    participating in a war.  In 1991 -- well, I don't even have 1991 entered

20    in my military booklet, like many other fields where I participated.  You

21    will see here that it is first 1993 and then 1992.  I have that in

22    different documents.  This was done in a piecemeal way and, quite simply,

23    I could have expressed my own wish and said, I don't want to have this in

24    my military booklet, and that's it.  People wanted these stamps in order

25    to exercise certain rights in the companies where they worked and so on.

Page 2320

 1    So I simply have all of this on other documents.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll take -- please

 3    give back your military booklet and Mrs. Dahl can pursue.

 4            MS. DAHL:

 5       Q.   How did you end up in the unit of the Leva Supoderica?

 6       A.   Well, after the village of Tovarnik, Ilaca, and Djeletovci were

 7    taken, we were withdrawn, or rather, my platoon.  Quite simply, this unit

 8    was disbanded and all the platoons were transferred to other units, and my

 9    platoon was transported to Lipovaca, picnic grounds near Sid.  We had a

10    short training course there, and from there we were sent to the Vukovar

11    theatre of war and that is where we were attached to the Leva Supoderica

12    Detachment.

13       Q.   What kind of training did you receive at Lipovaca?

14       A.   Well, basic infantry training and drills -- well, I had already

15    fought in those three villages, but urban warfare is a different matter,

16    fighting in built-up areas.  During the course of your military service

17    you cannot really learn something like that.  It's not like when it really

18    happens.  People who were considered experienced were brought in and they

19    tried to explain to us how one should act while fighting in built-up

20    areas, how to use hand-grenades, hand-held rocket-launchers, whatever.

21       Q.   Did you learn how to communicate with civilians during combat

22    actions?

23       A.   I don't understand what kind of communication with civilians you

24    are talking about.

25       Q.   If you -- were you trained how to deal with civilians you found

Page 2321

 1    hiding in buildings?

 2       A.   We did not have any special training of that kind.

 3       Q.   Were you given any instructions to advise them about the Geneva

 4    Conventions?

 5       A.   Well, you see, Vukovar is also a small town but with a mixed

 6    population, Serbs, Croats, Ruthenians, Slovaks lived there.  So when it

 7    was being taken it had to be taken house by house quite literally because

 8    of the large-scale artillery preparations that were carried out by the JNA

 9    and of course the Croat forces were also shelling with mortars.  The

10    population was in the houses, and when we were searching the houses we had

11    to search the basements too.  You would usually stand by the windows of

12    the basements and we would say, This is the JNA, you will be treated in

13    accordance with all the rules.  As for the Geneva Conventions, well, that

14    was not mentioned.  But at any rate, we said, According to the rules.

15    Please come out.  We will count to three or four or five, whatever people

16    said, and then we will throw in a hand-grenade.  Usually people would come

17    out then.

18       Q.   Why did you tell them that you were with the JNA?

19       A.   Well, the JNA was the mainstay of everything out there, and how

20    can I come and say, Get out, here's a Chetnik?  The Croats -- all the

21    Croats called us Chetniks, all of us, but it's logical for us to say that

22    we are the JNA.  But by virtue of the fact that I am a volunteer and a

23    member of Leva Supoderica, I'm within the composition of the 1st Guards

24    Brigade, I got my salary from the 1st Guards Brigade.  The fact that we

25    call ourselves Chetniks or that others call us Chetniks -- well, we're the

Page 2322

 1    JNA because according to our law, a reservist or a volunteer is one and

 2    the same thing.  A volunteer is a person who volunteered in a unit,

 3    whereas reservists were called up.  All of that was equated later.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're talking about

 5    something very important.  You were talking about volunteers, but now

 6    you're saying that you were member of the 1st brigade of guards -- 1st

 7    Guards Brigade.

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So my question is simple:  Were

10    you a military man?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Vukovar operations, you mean?

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In Vukovar and before that.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that -- well, in Vukovar I

14    was a member of the Leva Supoderica Detachment that was within the 1st

15    Guards Brigade.  By virtue of that fact I was a member of the 1st Guards

16    Brigade of the JNA as well.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  So you were a member of

18    the JNA in Vukovar, but before that?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before that I was a member for a

20    very brief period of time of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja,

21    and Western Srem, which was also under the command of the JNA.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you were in

23    military clothes, you had weapons, and you had -- you were under a

24    military command?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2323

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2            MS. DAHL:

 3       Q.   Who was the commander of the unit?

 4       A.   Milan Lancuzanin was the commander of my unit.

 5       Q.   Does he have a nickname?

 6       A.   Yes, he was called Kameni, like his father.

 7       Q.   Do you know whether the commander had ties with the Serbian

 8    Radical Party?

 9       A.   At the very beginning I didn't know until I was told over there.

10    On the first or second day as we were being lined up in Nova Ulica, and

11    that was very short, I was told that most of the volunteers were

12    volunteers that were organized by the Serb Radical Party -- well, we were

13    attached there to the command of the 1st Guards Brigade and we would act

14    in a coordinated manner with them in further operations, except that we

15    volunteers elected squad and platoon leaders amongst ourselves.  We did

16    not get any instructions from the JNA about that.

17       Q.   How did you organize your squads and platoons of volunteers?

18       A.   In the same way like any other army.  Company commander, platoon

19    commander, every platoon had two or more squads.  There were squad leaders

20    respectively.

21       Q.   Did the volunteers from the -- organized by the Radical Party stay

22    together in the organizational units?

23       A.   I don't understand.  Are you referring to the field of Vukovar or

24    are you speaking in general terms?

25       Q.   I want to focus on the individuals commanded by Kameni in the Leva

Page 2324

 1    Supoderica Detachment.

 2       A.   Well, you see, in the Leva Supoderica Detachment there weren't

 3    only people from Serbia who were organized by the Serb Radical Party;

 4    there was a certain number of people who were from among the local

 5    population of Vukovar, not very many of them because usually they would

 6    belong to the Territorial Defence there but there were a number of them in

 7    our unit too.  It is only logical.  We needed people who were from the

 8    area itself.  They were familiar with locations, with the area, and we

 9    didn't know.  We were newcomers and the commander himself was a local man.

10       Q.   So where did the volunteers come from if they weren't local?

11       A.   Well, they came in groups.  There was a big group of people who

12    were from Novi Sad, the area around Novi Sad, Vojvodina, later on a group

13    of people from Nis came and from that area, from Serbia.

14       Q.   Did you receive uniforms that had insignia and patches on them?

15       A.   I personally, no, not I personally.  My platoon, when it arrived

16    in Vukovar, it was sent to Velepromet.  We had lunch there and a man came

17    there who introduced himself as the deputy commander of Leva Supoderica.

18    He gave us camouflage uniforms and camouflage berets.  As for insignia,

19    whether they were sewn on to the uniforms, they had been sewn on to the

20    uniforms -- I don't think there was anything on the uniforms then.

21       Q.   Did you receive patches or did you get patches later to put on the

22    uniforms?

23       A.   No, it was the beginning of the war.  As for some organized

24    insignia -- well, no.  I personally wore a cockade but many others could

25    wear either insignia of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and

Page 2325

 1    Western Srem, some wore the JNA insignia, some even had the red star,

 2    five-pointed red star.  There were different insignia.

 3       Q.   Did you see any insignia for the Chetnik Movement?

 4       A.   Insignia for the Chetnik Movement?  What would that be?  It would

 5    probably be the cockade.

 6       Q.   Can you explain to the judges what a cockade is?

 7       A.   Cockade, kokarda, well it's a symbol, or rather, it would be a

 8    coat of arms, a Serb coat of arms of the old Serbia, the Kingdom of

 9    Serbia.  It was worn on uniforms or something similar to a cockade, well

10    people tend to say that anything that looks like a cockade is a cockade,

11    but it's very hard to explain, cockade, kokarda.  Anything that was a Serb

12    coat of arms was called cockade by people, although there are such things

13    including two eagles or a skull and bones, different things.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How was your cockade?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I had the one with the skull.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who gave you this kokarda?  Did

17    you buy it?  Did you get it from the political party?  Where did you

18    obtain it?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, then in 1991 it was my own.  I

20    had bought it or I had got it from someone.

21            MS. DAHL:

22       Q.   You had said that the deputy commander had distributed some

23    camouflage uniforms.  What was the name of the deputy commander?

24       A.   We called him Tito.  It was very hard to remember his name, but I

25    think I managed to remember it, Zoran Ubiparipovic, but he was wounded on

Page 2326

 1    the very next day or the day after that in the first larger operation that

 2    we had there.

 3       Q.   Do you know who was the commander of the Territorial Defence in

 4    Vukovar?

 5       A.   The commander of the Territorial Defence in Vukovar was

 6    Miroljub -- Miroljub Vujovic, I think.

 7       Q.   Did Kameni tell you who was to command the units to go into

 8    Vukovar?

 9       A.   Well, we were already in Vukovar.  I don't understand.

10       Q.   What was the relationship between the detachment and the

11    Territorial Defence in Vukovar?

12       A.   There was coordination, coordinated action.  Even the Territorial

13    Defence of Vukovar was under the control of the JNA.

14       Q.   What did Kameni tell you about the -- who was the commander of the

15    brigade?

16       A.   I don't remember that he told me who the commander of the brigade

17    was.

18       Q.   Did you hear any information about Seselj's relationship to the

19    Leva Supoderica Detachment?

20       A.   Well, you see, at that time we were engaged in intensive warfare,

21    but in the evening we would sit there at the command and people did say

22    that Vojvoda Seselj was our Commander-in-Chief, but this was -- well, it

23    was my understanding that this was imaginary because in the field itself

24    it was the JNA who were the commanders-in-chief.  But quite simply, this

25    was a man who organized volunteers and sent them to the theatre of war,

Page 2327

 1    but now this is the very beginning.  If I start speaking at greater

 2    length, perhaps I may confuse things and start talking about things that

 3    happened in 1992 and things like that.  Well, nothing really.  He said

 4    that Mr. Seselj organized volunteers and the Serb Radical Party did too.

 5    We called ourselves Chetniks.  There was also a section in the Serb

 6    Radical Party that was called the Serb Chetnik Movement, but I cannot say

 7    at that time in Vukovar whether that is the way it was all organized.

 8       Q.   What was the purpose of the Serb fighting forces in Vukovar?

 9       A.   Well, what's the purpose of any army?  To take control of an area,

10    to destroy the Croat forces.  At that time they were paramilitary forces

11    as far as we were concerned.  That was the objective, to destroy them and

12    establish control over the area.

13       Q.   Did you consider that you were trying to liberate the territory

14    for Serbs?

15       A.   You see, when we take a location, a street, the Serbs who happened

16    to be there usually joined the Territorial Defence, the TO of Vukovar.

17    And the Croats get taken away for exchanges.  I did not follow where it

18    was that they were going.  Well, some were killed, but then again that is

19    a matter of various individuals.  It is logical if the Serbs control the

20    town that Croats would leave it, would leave the area.

21       Q.   What happened to the civilians who were leaving the town?

22       A.   I personally do not know what happened, in what way they were

23    being evacuated, whether anything had been organized.  Probably that was

24    the case when Vukovar was liberated and -- well, after two weeks it was a

25    Serb town.

Page 2328

 1       Q.   Did you see civilians being mistreated?

 2       A.   Well, yes, I did.

 3       Q.   Can you describe that?

 4       A.   Well, I have already said that to mistreat a civilian, that was

 5    something that the individual who found them in a basement did.  There was

 6    simply evil people and they could not be controlled always.  The situation

 7    could not always be under control.

 8       Q.   What would happen when it got out of control?

 9       A.   Well, for a while they could behave inappropriately, mistreat

10    people, even kill them, until the military police or somebody else came

11    along.  If the military police was there such things would not happen.

12       Q.   Did you hear any speeches by Seselj while you were in Sid?

13       A.   More than once I listened to Mr. Seselj in Sid over an extended

14    period of time.  I don't know precisely when.  I don't know the dates

15    exactly, but once I listened to him in a sports field in Sid, later on in

16    the centre of town, then in the premises of the Serb Radical Party in a

17    nearby restaurant, and in Vukovar.  We were sitting in a restaurant or a

18    coffee bar belonging to Stanko Vujanovic and that is when we were

19    celebrating the first anniversary of the fall of Vukovar.  So yes, I did

20    hear what Mr. Seselj when he made speeches if that's what you said.

21       Q.   Let me take you back in time a little bit so that we're talking

22    about the events in Vukovar.  Did you --

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You shall do so later on.  The

24    time has come for a break.  It's 10.00.  We're going to break for 20

25    minutes.

Page 2329

 1                          --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 10.24 a.m.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.  I'd

 4    like address Mr. Seselj on the issue of faxes.  The registrar tried to

 5    look into the matter.  The problem is as follows.  The fax or faxes sent

 6    by your associates are to arrive in one of the registry offices, and you

 7    said that you did not want anybody to take the documents.  It is,

 8    therefore, impossible for you to move around the Tribunal premises to go

 9    and get the faxes.  It looks as though the solution might be for the

10    registry to see to it that you have available in the room where you are

11    when you come to court to have a fax machine so that the documents can

12    arrive on that fax and you can get them straight away.  Otherwise, it's

13    not possible for you to move about the Tribunal to go and get the faxes.

14    So it seems from the registry that it can only be implemented as of

15    tomorrow.  Today it's impossible to get the fax machine.  This is what I

16    wanted to tell you, Mr. Seselj.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm satisfied with

18    this solution, as the OTP has announced that they will take more time to

19    examine this witness so it's not urgent for me to receive this today, but

20    I hope you understand that I do not trust the registry because it's

21    evident to me that the registry has been working hand in hand with the OTP

22    over the past five years and the former deputy registrar David Tolbert is

23    now the Deputy Prosecutor.  So as far as I'm concerned is all one and the

24    same unit, one and the same service.  I have to receive my documents in my

25    own hands from my collaborators if they're not in The Hague, but tomorrow

Page 2330

 1    is not too late.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 3    continues]... the fax machine is available to you in that room so you can

 4    get faxes during the breaks.

 5            Let's proceed.

 6            MS. DAHL:

 7       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I want to go back to the formation of the unit that

 8    went into Vukovar, so let me take you back in time to September 1991 in

 9    Djeletovci.  I think I've pronounced it wrong.  Djeletovci.  Did you meet

10    a man there named Slobodan Medic?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Who is he?

13       A.   I know who he is now.  If you're asking me who he was then, I

14    don't know what you want me to say.

15       Q.   When you met him for the first time, who did he appear to be?

16       A.   He was the commander of a unit of about 20 men.  What struck me

17    then was their equipment, their appearance.  They looked very different

18    from us.  They had more expensive and better equipment and gear.

19       Q.   Can you compare their level of training to your group?

20       A.   I don't know what their training was at that time.  I'm just

21    saying that they looked more -- well, they had more expensive uniforms and

22    vehicles.

23       Q.   Now, you said later you learned information about Slobodan Medic.

24    What was that?

25       A.   Later on I was even a member of his unit, but in 1991, yes, I

Page 2331

 1    learned that he was a member, or rather, the commander of a special unit

 2    which was being formed and that they were in charge of the oil rigs in the

 3    village of Djeletovci.

 4       Q.   Who was forming that unit?

 5       A.   To the best of my knowledge at the time, the first person to form

 6    that unit, to engage in forming that unit is a man whose name I can't

 7    remember right now but a high-ranking officer of the Serbian MUP known as

 8    Badza.  He was in the Krajina at the time and he was in charge of forming

 9    the Territorial Defence in that area.

10       Q.   Now, let me take you to a meeting you had in a restaurant in

11    Lipovaca about the formation of the unit to go into Vukovar.  Do you

12    remember being at the restaurant hotel?

13       A.   The Lipovaca facility is a picnic ground in the Sid municipality

14    and there is a restaurant there where we were quartered and it also had

15    some hotel rooms at the time.

16       Q.   Did you receive a visit from Slobodan Grahovac, the minister of

17    defence?

18       A.   Well, whether he was the minister of defence, I don't know, but he

19    was in the Ministry of Defence.  He may have become minister later, but

20    yes, his name was Slobodan Grahovac and he was with another man, I think

21    his lasting name was Filipovic.

22       Q.   Which minister -- or which government organization was he with?

23       A.   In the government but not the Serbian government he was there on

24    behalf of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

25    or on behalf of the district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  They

Page 2332

 1    had some sort of government at the time or they were establishing one, but

 2    he was in any case a representative of that territorial district.

 3       Q.   Did he make a speech that you listened to there?

 4       A.   Yes, he told us that there would be a slaughter-house there, that

 5    it's not an ordinary war, that people were being killed there, that this

 6    was no military exercise, no manoeuvre.  He said that whoever does not

 7    feel prepared may leave now.  Well, he -- that was the gist of what he

 8    said.  He said that the Ustasha forces there were very strong.

 9       Q.   Where was he referring to when he used the term "the

10    slaughter-house"?

11       A.   He didn't mention any place explicitly, but he was referring to

12    Vukovar, the slaughter-house where people were being killed, that's how I

13    understood him.  That was the word he used.  He said, You're going to a

14    slaughter-house.  Don't imagine you're going for a military exercise.

15       Q.   What did Mr. Grahovac tell you about who would be instructing you

16    before going to Vukovar?

17       A.   At that time four or five men arrived.  One was nicknamed Djovani

18    and there were three or four others who were dressed in traditional

19    Chetnik uniforms, the sort you would see in Veljko Bulajic's films.

20    Veljko Bulajic was a film director, they had black uniforms, war beards.

21    The main training was conducted by the man nicknamed Djovani and he was

22    very professional.

23       Q.   Were they training you in traditional Chetnik weapons?

24       A.   You have to tell me what traditional Chetnik weapons are.

25       Q.   Did they tell you stories about Chetniks?

Page 2333

 1       A.   Well, they couldn't tell me anything I didn't know already.  There

 2    was a man there called Ljuba Ivanovic.  He spoke about a Chetnik code of

 3    conduct, about an oath which we never actually took, but they already had

 4    some war experience, and so did I, from the village of Tovarnik and

 5    Djeletovci, but they had, in my view at the time, more experience than I

 6    did.

 7       Q.   Do you remember the names of the other Chetnik instructors?

 8       A.   We considered them to be instructors.  Whether they actually were

 9    instructors, I don't know, but I remember a man nicknamed Bokal, I've

10    forgotten his name, and another man called Milovan Tomic and several

11    others.  I may have remembered their names earlier but they escape me

12    now.  Yes, I think there was a man called Vladan Lukic or something like

13    that.  I know he was killed very early on in Vukovar.

14       Q.   Now let me turn your attention to the command post for the

15    detachment in Vukovar for the Leva Supoderica Detachment.  Did you learn

16    about the -- how supplies were -- I'm sorry.  Did you learn while you were

17    at the command post about any relationship between the Radical Party and

18    the Leva Supoderica Detachment?

19       A.   What I knew or heard at the time, and I heard that for the most

20    part from a man who was I think our Chief of Staff or something like that,

21    Slobodan Katic, and he was some sort of liaison.  He travelled to Belgrade

22    and back, but I don't know all the details precisely.

23       Q.   Was Mr. Katic a member of the Radical Party?

24       A.   Probably, yes.

25       Q.   What function did he serve when he was travelling back and forth?

Page 2334

 1       A.   I can't precisely.  It's possible that he was a liaison.  We could

 2    ask for something as a unit, something that the radical party could

 3    organize for us or get for us through their channels.  Perhaps more men.

 4    He was Chief of Staff and it was in his job description to coordinate

 5    between the army and the party.  I don't know.

 6       Q.   What kinds of things did he coordinate?  You mentioned men.  What

 7    other -- can you give us some examples of what he did?

 8       A.   I can't give you examples.  He didn't confide in me.  We sat

 9    together in a restaurant several times in the course of the war and in my

10    house in Sid when we were on leave for a day, but he didn't tell me

11    specifically what his mission was.  Simply, as a member of that unit, I

12    considered him to be even deputy commander for a while because he was

13    doing an enormous job there.  But what he did precisely, I can't tell you,

14    I don't know.

15       Q.   Did he ever give you or other members of the unit gifts from

16    Mr. Seselj?

17       A.   Not to me.  I never received a gift.

18       Q.   Did you see him deliver gifts to other people that came in the

19    mail?

20       A.   I only heard about this, that there were gifts.  I don't know

21    whether they were from Mr. Seselj or not, but the gifts were symbolic

22    probably.  I can't remember what they were.

23       Q.   Did you receive a membership card in the Radical Party as part of

24    your assignment in the Leva Supoderica Detachment?

25       A.   No, no.  I only had a pass allowing me to move around during the

Page 2335

 1    combat operation which said that I was a member of the Leva Supoderica

 2    Detachment.

 3       Q.   Were members of that detachment who were volunteers supposed to be

 4    members of the Radical Party?

 5       A.   Probably, yes, they were all members and if some were not, maybe,

 6    well, they joined later on.

 7       Q.   Who is Zoran Drazilovic?

 8       A.   Zoran Drazilovic is a man who held some sort of post in the Crisis

 9    Staff of the Serbian Radical Party.  I don't know much about him.  I know

10    what he looked like and I spoke to him once a very long time ago when I

11    went out on the ground from Belgrade and I opened a file with him.  He

12    entered my name and whether I had a tour or not somewhere, identifying

13    features if I were killed somewhere, my address.  There was a photocopying

14    shop nearby.  I took -- I made a photocopy of the photo on my ID card and

15    I gave it to him and that was the extent of my conversation with him.

16       Q.   In this conversation with Mr. Drazilovic, were you being enrolled

17    in something?  You mentioned filling out some forms.

18       A.   The Serb Radical Party, I can't be certain but certainly they kept

19    records.  They had files on their volunteers, and he filled those files

20    in, those cards.  If you're asking me whether I was a party member at the

21    time, I was already a member.  I'm talking about my encounter with him

22    which was official and that was in 1992 probably, not 1991.  After that

23    when that file was filled in I was sent to some barracks for brief

24    training and after that on the ground.

25       Q.   Are you aware --

Page 2336

 1       A.   The barracks were in Bubanj Potok.

 2       Q.   Are you aware of anyone who was kicked out of the Leva Supoderica

 3    Detachment because he did not belong to the Serbian Radical Party?

 4       A.   I don't know whether he was not a member, but I do know that this

 5    former deputy of -- well, Ubiparipovic was accused of being a member of

 6    the SPO, the Serbian Renewal Movement, and they expelled him, they kicked

 7    him out.  And the reason they gave was that he was a member of the SPO or

 8    an SPO spy or something like that.

 9       Q.   In connection with him being kicked out, did you see him beaten?

10       A.   As I said, they processed him physically.  He was tied up, he was

11    tied up in the basement, and it lasted a day.

12       Q.   In the basement of where?

13       A.   In Kameni's house.

14       Q.   Did you see him there tied up in the basement?

15       A.   Yes.  He was tied to the pipes, the plumbing pipes on the ceiling.

16       Q.   Who tied him there?

17       A.   As to who tied him, I didn't see that.  When I entered the

18    basement that's what I saw, he was already there.

19       Q.   Was Kameni there in the house?

20       A.   He was possibly up -- he may have been upstairs.  He wasn't in the

21    basement.

22       Q.   Did you see anything else happen to him in connection with his

23    processing out of the Leva Supoderica Detachment?

24       A.   Yes, there's a very banal situation.  I saw him a year or two

25    later on in company with Kameni sitting in a restaurant, that same man,

Page 2337

 1    which means they became reconciled afterwards probably.

 2       Q.   Do you know whether Mr. Seselj was aware of the situation in

 3    Vukovar with regard to the fighting?

 4       A.   He probably was.  Why wouldn't he be?  He visited us in Vukovar.

 5       Q.   Can you tell me about the -- one of the visits of Seselj when you

 6    were in Vukovar.  Tell me what happened.

 7       A.   I know about the one visit.  Quite simply, he turned up.  I didn't

 8    know he was going to arrive, nobody mentioned it probably for security

 9    reasons.  He simply visited us.  He was taken round.  It wasn't just us,

10    members of Leva Supoderica, there were also officers from the 1st Guards

11    Brigade who took him round to the front line, to Prvomajska street.

12       Q.   Did he make a speech while he was touring Vukovar?

13       A.   It wasn't exactly a speech.  As he walked along, he spoke.  He

14    didn't stand up and hold a rally.  That would have been a stupid thing to

15    do, we could have all been killed, we were in danger from Croat mortars.

16       Q.   Was he addressing the soldiers around him?

17       A.   Mr. Seselj had come to visit, and of course they listened to what

18    he said.  He spoke about various matters.  I can't quote everything he

19    said.

20       Q.   What do you remember him talking about?

21       A.   I remember that a group of men who were there in Prvomajska Street

22    took him to show him four members of the ZNG who had been killed and three

23    or four Croatian policemen.  We had liquidated them the previous day, and

24    I know that jokingly he said, Why don't you burn the corpses, you might

25    catch a disease or something.  Later on he tried to fire shots at a house

Page 2338

 1    across the road.  He couldn't see any enemies there, but as a symbolic

 2    gesture he fired shots in the direction where the Croatian forces were.

 3       Q.   Did he discuss the purpose of fighting in Vukovar?

 4       A.   I don't understand what the purpose -- what you mean by that

 5    question.  We all knew what the purpose was.  We were there to take

 6    Vukovar.  Whether he spoke about this or not, I can't say now.  He said

 7    that we should be brave, that we should fight courageously, that we

 8    shouldn't allow the Croats to take control.  What else could a man say who

 9    had come to visit soldiers?  He came to encourage us.

10       Q.   Did he refer to Croats by the name of Ustasha?

11       A.   Yes, we referred to them by that name as well.

12       Q.   What did Mr. Seselj say concerning Ustasha in Vukovar?

13       A.   Well, what do you mean by Ustasha in Vukovar?  What he said about

14    the Ustasha in Vukovar?

15       Q.   Was he giving instructions or advice or exhortations to the

16    soldiers fighting in Vukovar?

17       A.   Well, his very arrival encouraged us.  That was already something

18    that raised our spirits.  Whether he gave any advice or issued any orders,

19    he might have done that elsewhere but he didn't do that in front of us.

20    He might have done so when he was with the commanders somewhere else.

21       Q.   What was the effect of his arrival on the volunteers?

22       A.   I don't know how it affected the volunteers but I know how it

23    affected me.  Quite simply, I was pleased.  A man had come to visit us.

24    He wasn't afraid to come to the front line.  Mr. Seselj was a political

25    leader and we all trusted him, at least that's what I think.

Page 2339

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me come back to a

 2    few moments ago when you showed -- or spoke about the corpses of Croats

 3    who were killed and then you said "liquidated."  Could you tell me whether

 4    these people had been killed in combat or liquidated, meaning that they

 5    would have been executed once they had been made prisoner.  So what did

 6    you mean exactly?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  They were killed

 8    or liquidated in combat.  That is precisely the reason.  We wanted to show

 9    off in front of Mr. Seselj to commend ourselves.  It would be silly to

10    shoot anyone in front of him.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the meaning you give

12    to "liquidated"?  What does it mean in your mind to be liquidated?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I go into action of cleansing -

14    that's what we call it - that's a military term, I go with the objective

15    of preserving my own life, taking a territory, and killing or liquidating

16    someone, whatever you call it, but not a captured man of course, in

17    fighting, in combat.  If we hadn't done it, they would have.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one objection.  It's probably a

20    problem with the interpretation in different languages.  In the Serbian

21    language one can say to liquidate an enemy position, an enemy unit, a

22    machine-gun nest, that is to say to fire in the direction of the enemy and

23    that means liquidate.  In the Serbian language liquidate does not

24    necessarily mean to execute, shoot dead --

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

Page 2340

 1    continues]... the meaning given by Mr. Seselj to that notion of

 2    liquidation in your language?  Does liquidating mean also that you take a

 3    position, not just -- or not executing?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I meant the word "execution," I

 5    would have used the word execution; but when I used the

 6    word "liquidation," I meant precisely that, the liquidation of enemy

 7    manpower.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You took part in a military

 9    action.  People were killed.  I don't know in which exact circumstances

10    they were.  Therefore, I have to tell you this:  When a question is put to

11    you whose answer might incriminate you; in other words, one day it may be

12    sort of used against you because there would be another court using this

13    information to indict you, well, you are entitled not to answer the

14    question because if you answered it you might incriminate yourself.  But

15    in this case the Trial Chamber might ask you to answer, all the same, and

16    the answer you would give, as the Rules say, could not be used against

17    you.  This is what I wanted to tell you for everything to be clear.  If at

18    any time in a question put to you you sense or you think that something

19    may be held against you, certain behaviour may be held against you, you

20    can say, I don't want to answer this, and the Judges will see what they

21    should do.

22            Let us continue, Ms. Dahl.

23            MS. DAHL:

24       Q.   In answer to the Judge's question a moment ago you said that you

25    would go into action cleansing.  Can you tell me what you meant

Page 2341

 1    by "cleansing"?

 2       A.   "Cleansing" is a military term, and it means to take a certain

 3    area in terms of expelling or destroying enemy manpower and taking that

 4    particular area.  That is what cleansing means.

 5       Q.   Do you include in that definition expelling civilians from the

 6    town?

 7       A.   No.  I as a soldier understand the term "cleansing" the way I

 8    described it to you a few moments ago.

 9       Q.   Let me take you to the first day of action in Vukovar after you

10    arrived.  Do you recall what your first military objective was with

11    Kameni?

12       A.   That should be one of those so-called mini markets that goes out

13    into Prvomajska Street.

14       Q.   Were there civilians in Vukovar in the area that you were trying

15    to take?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Were civilians detained during the engagement?

18       A.   There were civilians who were ethnic Serbs and ethnic Croats and

19    other ethnicities, Ruthenians, Slovaks, and so on.

20       Q.   So you saw civilians being detained during the military action?

21       A.   Yes, yes, I saw that, but it was I think a few days before the

22    fall of Vukovar.  I saw civilians at Velepromet.

23       Q.   Well, let me take you to your first action in Vukovar.  You told

24    me the ethnicities of the civilians.  How did you come to know what ethnic

25    group different civilians belonged to?

Page 2342

 1       A.   We asked them or they speak up themselves.  Serbs would usually

 2    identify themselves and they would welcome us cordially, quite simple.

 3    Croats, on the other hand, looked different -- I mean, I'm not saying that

 4    they looked different physically.  They looked afraid.  There were cases,

 5    it wasn't only once, this happened many times, that we found in basements

 6    civilians of both ethnicities.  Quite simply they would seek shelter

 7    together from artillery fire.  They were separated then.  I don't know.

 8    Serbs went to one place and Croats were taken to another place.

 9       Q.   When civilians were detained and their ethnicities checked, what

10    happened to the Serbs?

11       A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean by "detention"?  This is no

12    detention yet.  They're in, say, the yards of the private homes when they

13    were leaving their shelters.  You asked what would happen to Serbs.

14       Q.   Let me take you into your memory to being in a situation where you

15    found some civilians who have now come out of hiding, and what I

16    understand you to say is that at that point their ethnicity would be

17    checked; is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And what decisions were made depending on their ethnicity?

20       A.   I already told you, they'd be separated.  The Croats would be sent

21    in one direction, the Serbs in another, because -- I'm sorry.  At that

22    moment practically 100 per cent of the Croats wanted to be relocated to

23    the territory of Croatia that was under Croatian control, of the Croat

24    forces that is.  Serbs, since they were from Vukovar, either went to safer

25    places, Serbia, military-aged men would stay in the Territorial Defence.

Page 2343

 1    That's the way it usually was.

 2       Q.   Were Croat civilians sent to Velepromet?

 3       A.   Well, I think that Velepromet was used as kind of a collection

 4    centre and I don't know whether it was the only such facility -- well,

 5    quite simply, I think it was a collection centre.

 6       Q.   Can you describe the building at Velepromet for me, please?

 7       A.   Well, you see, the Velepromet facility is the property of a

 8    trading company in Vukovar.  There are a few hangars there that are made

 9    of metal.  Quite simply, they were used as warehouses for consumer goods.

10       Q.   Were the Croatian civilians warehoused at Velepromet?

11       A.   I saw them in those warehouses, yes.

12       Q.   Can you estimate how many people you saw?

13       A.   No, no.

14       Q.   More than ten?

15       A.   More, more, hundreds of them.

16       Q.   More than 500?

17       A.   Madam, Madam Prosecutor, I cannot guess, but it's more than a

18    hundred.  I don't know.

19       Q.   Did you see children there?

20       A.   I do not recall having seen children.  It is possible.  If entire

21    families were there, there must have been children there too.  I

22    personally did not see any, though.  I saw the door of the hangar open and

23    masses of people, but inside -- well, these hangars are enormous, they're

24    not that small, and I really don't know who was there.

25       Q.   Are you aware of any civilians who were killed while they were at

Page 2344

 1    Velepromet?

 2       A.   Yes, I heard about that.

 3       Q.   Can you tell me how you became aware of killings of civilians at

 4    Velepromet?

 5       A.   Well, you see, people who are prone to do that kind of thing are

 6    prone to brag about it as well.  So I did talk about a few killings that

 7    took place in Velepromet and I heard about them from a man that we call

 8    Topola.

 9       Q.   Can you describe Topola, please.

10       A.   A tall man with a beard and a strong voice and very strong

11    physically.

12       Q.   Did you see him committing any crime against a civilian at

13    Velepromet?

14       A.   I know that he killed a man in the area around Velepromet, but I

15    didn't see that with my very own eyes.  I heard gun-shots.  It wasn't that

16    I was the only one who heard this; many of us heard this.  So I cannot say

17    with any degree of certainty whether he killed this man or not, but as I

18    told you, this man is prone to bragging and he himself said that he had

19    killed this person.  We all believed him because that is exactly what it

20    looked like, what he looked like.

21       Q.   Did you see the dead body of the man you thought he had killed?

22       A.   Yes, the next day by the railroad.

23       Q.   What did Topola tell you about having -- shooting that man?

24       A.   He tried to be ironical.  It's not that he was addressing only me

25    personally.  He said that the man had tried to escape or something like

Page 2345

 1    that.

 2       Q.   Did he tell you something about trying to bring two presents?

 3       A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, he brought a man to the house where we

 4    were all sitting and celebrating the saint archangel.  He brought a man

 5    and he brought this man, the prisoner, as a gift to the host of the patron

 6    saint's day celebration.

 7       Q.   Who was that prisoner or that man that he brought?

 8       A.   Well, what we heard from him was that he was a member of the ZNG

 9    and he was in charge of the water-tower, so we all assumed that he had

10    been a sniper shooter for the simple reason that the water-tower is a

11    dominant feature there.  So that was our assumption.

12       Q.   Can you tell the Judges what the ZNG is?

13       A.   The Croatian army.

14       Q.   Was this man a prisoner?

15       A.   Yes, he had already been taken prisoner by someone else

16    beforehand, but Topola brought him from Velepromet, from that collection

17    centre.  Now, whether he had stolen him from there or not, well, whether

18    the guards knew about it or not -- but it seems that he got him from this

19    officer of the military police that was providing security there.  He said

20    that he asked him to give him two prisoners.  He killed one en route and

21    brought the other one there.

22       Q.   Did Topola threaten to kill the man in your presence?

23       A.   The one that he brought in?  Yes, he mistreated him in different

24    ways but he didn't kill him.  Quite simply, all of that was happening in a

25    house very close to the command of Leva Supoderica and Kameni's staff.  I

Page 2346

 1    and another man went there and we said what was going on, but Kameni

 2    wasn't there and we said that -- there was some kind of a feast going on

 3    there.  The man had not been killed yet, but it was very unpleasant.  At

 4    first, perhaps since we were all a bit crazy from the war, it seemed a bit

 5    funny, but afterwards it became unpleasant.  But then Kameni called one of

 6    his soldiers, Kinez, and he took him away.  And a few hours later I saw

 7    Kinez and he fired a few rounds from a pistol and I asked him what he did

 8    because some people thought that he had killed the man, but he said that

 9    he fired two shots in the air in order to get people quiet because there

10    was a lot of celebration -- there were a lot of celebrations going on on

11    that day and I tend to believe the man because I knew him, I knew Kinez.

12       Q.   Did you ask questions of the JNA captain concerning the two

13    prisoners who had been taken out by Topola?

14       A.   No, I was not authorised to talk to the JNA military police

15    captain -- well, I could talk to him, but with regard to that particular

16    question it wasn't that I asked a question.  There was a group of us there

17    and somebody asked him about it, probably it was Kinez.  But I don't

18    remember how it was that he explained this or whether he did.  I

19    personally am not inclined to believe -- well, or rather, I am inclined to

20    believe that he stole these two men from inside.  Maybe he was assisted by

21    someone from the inside, but I don't know.  I'm simply telling you what it

22    was that he said.

23       Q.   What do you recall the JNA captain's explanation to be?

24       A.   I don't know what his explanation was.  You know, at that time

25    people had already known about this man, Topola, even if something had

Page 2347

 1    happened maybe people were afraid of him.  I really cannot say anything

 2    specific.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the OTP microphone

 4    please be switched off while there is typing.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, do you know

 6    what happened to this Topola?

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is that our commander,

 8    Kameni, expelled him from the unit, although he did stay in Vukovar,

 9    nevertheless.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you know, was he

11    ever tried?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he got killed later, so he was

13    not tried.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl, you may resume.

15            MS. DAHL:

16       Q.   Did you ever see Topola with a young girl in Vukovar?

17       A.   Yes, precisely because of that incident Kameni -- well, I can't

18    remember was Kameni the deputy commander of the platoon or whether he was

19    a squad leader within that platoon.  He wasn't an ordinary soldier.  I

20    mean it's not that much of a difference between a squad leader and an

21    ordinary soldier, but I think that he disbanded that platoon and that he

22    gave me some of the people from that platoon and others to Kinez.  And as

23    for the rest, he said, quite simply, You're no longer with us.  It is

24    precisely after this incident that this happened.  And as far as I know,

25    she ended up in a well.

Page 2348

 1       Q.   Can you tell me what you saw Topola doing with the girl?

 2       A.   His platoon was in a house opposite the house where I had been put

 3    up.  There was some mistreatment there I -- of that girl.  I heard about

 4    that the previous day.  I know that she was in a room but no one was

 5    allowed to enter that room, so she was in this private prison of hers for

 6    a day or two.  She was accused for her husband being some kind of an

 7    extremist on the Croatian side who killed children.  That is the

 8    explanation that Topola provided.  I did not see her being raped by him,

 9    but everybody said that he raped her, killed her, and threw her into the

10    well, or rather, I don't know whether he threw her into the well and

11    thereby killed her or whether he killed her before that, before throwing

12    her into the well.

13       Q.   Did you see Topola leading her into the house by force?

14       A.   Yes, yes.  But I saw that a day or two beforehand when I did not

15    know at all that he had kept her as his prisoner.  They were returning

16    from an action that lasted about an hour or two, and this girl was being

17    taken by him and his men.  I was not attaching much significance to what

18    was going on.  I thought that she was taken to the command and the command

19    to the JNA, that he would resolve it in their own way, but I did not know

20    exactly at that first moment that he had kept her as his own prisoner.

21       Q.   How old did she appear to be?

22       A.   20.

23       Q.   What was her ethnicity, if you could tell from her appearance?

24       A.   I cannot tell from someone's appearance whether he or she is a

25    Serb or a Croat or whatever; we're all very similar.  But since she had

Page 2349

 1    already been taken prisoner and since she was treated that way, I assumed

 2    that she wasn't a Serb.

 3       Q.   Did you make a report of what you thought Topola was doing in that

 4    house?

 5       A.   Yes, otherwise Kameni would not have found out.  I don't think it

 6    was only me but I think that all platoon commanders and squad leaders

 7    learned about this and reported to Kameni about it.  Kameni reacted the

 8    way he did.  Kameni is an energetic man, a good commander.  I'm really

 9    surprised that he didn't kill him.  Well, that was not practice amongst

10    us, to have people punished that way, to have perpetrators punished that

11    way.

12       Q.   Did you go with anyone to check the house after making the report?

13       A.   We entered the house, but the girl was not there.

14       Q.   Who did you go with?

15       A.   With Sasa and Kinez, I think.  Kinez was always there.  He was --

16    well, we all respected that man, Predrag Milojevic.  I think that he was

17    one of the bravest members of Leva Supoderica and in a way Kameni's eyes

18    and ears, a kind of internal control amongst us, so you could always hear

19    something from him.  So he went there to see whether it was true that the

20    girl had been raped and whether she had really ended up in that well, and

21    it was impossible to check that because it was a deep well.

22       Q.   Did Slobodan Katic go into the house with you?

23       A.   Possibly.  Right at this moment I cannot remember.  It is

24    possible.  Why not?  He's a member of the command.

25       Q.   Did you find any blood in the house?

Page 2350

 1       A.   All this is a great deal of detail.  Blood was all around us,

 2    Madam.  It is possible that we saw it.  At any rate, as soon as Kameni

 3    resolved to expelling -- to expel him, it's obvious that there was enough

 4    proof for that.  We saw him around afterwards in Vukovar, and after that I

 5    saw him in Bosnia too.

 6       Q.   When did you see him in Bosnia?

 7       A.   Well, I don't know -- well, I personally saw him in the territory

 8    of Brcko, the municipality of Brcko, he and his platoon consisting

 9    primarily of volunteers from Ruma.  They had their camp there -- well, not

10    camp.  Well, they were staying at this particular place.  It was a small,

11    privately owned hotel that was called --

12            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name.

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And before that, he had been in

14    action in Zvornik.  I was not in action in Zvornik, but the people who

15    were there said that he was there too.  That's the only thing I know.

16    After that I heard that he got killed and I'm not quite sure that he got

17    killed in the battle-field.  I thought that he got killed in an accident

18    in Serbia, traffic accident.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're saying that you

20    entered the house and you don't really remember whether you were

21    accompanied by Slobodan Katic, but you added that he was member of the

22    command, that this Slobodan Katic was member of the command.  Could you

23    tell us exactly what you meant?  What does this mean?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, Your Honour, if we

25    went to check whether it was true that Topola behaved like that with that

Page 2351

 1    girl, that he killed her or raped her, then it's no wonder that the people

 2    who were in the command of the Leva Supoderica went to check that.  If

 3    Katic was, I recall, either Chief of Staff or something very similar to

 4    that, then -- well, he was part of the command of the Leva Supoderica

 5    Detachment, so it's no wonder he was there.  I don't find this detail so

 6    significant so I don't remember it.  I am not sure how many people were

 7    there, who was there.  It was a long time ago.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I'm supposed to understand

 9    that Slobodan Katic was part of the command structure of the Leva

10    Supoderica unit?

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13            MS. DAHL:

14       Q.   So let me see if I understand correctly when Topola was kicked out

15    of the Leva Supoderica Detachment, he was transferred to another unit and

16    you met him in that context later?

17       A.   Yes.  Well, as for his being transferred, I don't know.  He

18    probably went off on his own and applied to join another unit or he

19    probably wandered around Vukovar with weapons.  That's also a possibility.

20       Q.   But when you met him in Brcko in Bosnia, he was there with another

21    military unit?

22       A.   Yes, those are volunteers from the territory of Ruma or

23    thereabouts.

24       Q.   Did he say anything to you about Ovcara?

25       A.   I have already said that he was a man who liked to brag.  He

Page 2352

 1    didn't say anything to me personally in Vukovar itself; however, in Brcko

 2    we were together on several occasions in that small hotel called

 3    Vestfalija, I can't remember exactly, and once we went to Zvornik together

 4    in a jeep on a one-day visit.  And at that time he did talk about Ovcara,

 5    but at that time it was being talked about less than before.  However, I

 6    did hear from him that Ovcara had happened and that he had participated in

 7    it.  And there were others who mentioned Topola.  He was a man not easily

 8    forgotten because of his build.

 9       Q.   I'm sorry to ask you an obvious question, but can you tell the

10    Judges what happened at Ovcara?

11       A.   All I can say is what I heard, and as the trial in Serbia is over,

12    we now know, the Serbian public knows about this.  But going back to 1991

13    and what I thought and knew or heard at the time, I heard that something

14    had happened there and Kameni himself told me that something was going on

15    there.  But it was only two or three days later that I heard that there

16    was a large-scale execution there.

17       Q.   And in 1992 what did Topola say his involvement was back then?

18       A.   Well, what could it be?  If somebody participated in Ovcara, how

19    could he have participated unless it was by killing?  A man like Topola,

20    what could his role be but to kill?  And I recall him as a man who was at

21    Ovcara.

22       Q.   I'm asking for your recollection of what he said to you, his

23    words, what you remember.

24       A.   I can't quote him now.  A lot of time has elapsed since then.  If

25    I were to try to recall his words, I wouldn't be able to tell you with

Page 2353

 1    certainty what he said.

 2       Q.   What's your best recollection of what you understood him to have

 3    told you?

 4       A.   Well, it was an execution.  Some members of the ZNG were executed

 5    there; that was my understanding.

 6       Q.   Did he tell you, I executed people?

 7       A.   No, I can't say that he used those words, but in any case the way

 8    he explained it gave me to understand that he was one of the participants.

 9       Q.   When Topola was in Brcko, was he part of a unit that was commanded

10    by a Vojvoda?

11       A.   What Vojvoda?

12       Q.   That's my question to you.  Do you know whether he was with a unit

13    commanded by a Vojvoda?

14       A.   When he was in Brcko at the time I saw him and had contact with

15    him, he even went into one or two operations on that territory, he was a

16    platoon commander.  Before him there was someone else but that man was

17    killed, I didn't meet him.  In those days he was the commander of those 20

18    or 25 men, but there was no Vojvoda.

19       Q.   What is a Vojvoda?

20       A.   It's a title.

21       Q.   How do you become a Vojvoda?

22       A.   Well, how do you get any title, prize?  Someone has to nominate

23    you, someone has to approve that, and then you get that title.  I don't

24    know.  There were Vojvodas in Serbian history.  That's a historical title.

25      As for the present day, new Vojvodas promoted in the Serb Radical Party,

Page 2354

 1    it's probably because of their merits in the war, whether something they

 2    had done in military terms or organizational terms, but people were

 3    granted that title.

 4       Q.   Who granted the title of Vojvoda within the Serbian Radical Party?

 5       A.   I don't know exactly, but to the best of my understanding it has

 6    to be another Vojvoda to propose or promote a Vojvoda.  I don't know

 7    precisely how it functions, but in the Serb Radical Party the first

 8    Vojvoda was Dr. Vojislav Seselj, so it was probably at his proposal, but I

 9    can't be sure exactly how it works.

10       Q.   And do you see Vojvoda Dr. Vojislav Seselj in the courtroom?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Can you point him out, please.

13       A.   [Indicates].

14            MS. DAHL:  And let the record reflect that the witness has

15    identified the accused.

16       Q.   Are you familiar with whether you had to have a certain number of

17    volunteers under --

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, objection.

19            MS. DAHL:  [Previous translation continues]... your control --

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your objection?

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please tell the Prosecutor to

22    maintain the dignity of these proceedings and pose exclusively relevant

23    questions and not to transform these proceedings into a Serbia.  It's not

24    just all of Serbia but probably the whole world who knows that I am

25    Vojvoda Vojislav Seselj, a Chetnik Vojvoda.  There's no necessity for

Page 2355

 1    these theatrics in the courtroom.  So could the Prosecutor please put

 2    serious questions to the witness.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl was entitled to ask the

 4    witness whether the Vojvoda who would appoint another Vojvoda was you, and

 5    he said it was you and you confirmed this.  So let's move on to something

 6    else.

 7            MS. DAHL:

 8       Q.   Let me return to my question.  Are you familiar with whether there

 9    is a requirement to have a certain number of volunteers before one can

10    become a Vojvoda within the Radical Party or the Chetnik Movement?

11       A.   When the Vojvodas were granted their titles, I heard earlier from

12    Kameni that something like that was in the offing and that this was some

13    sort of prize for their participation and their overall activity in the

14    war.  But I didn't know who the candidates were, and this was also

15    reported in the media.  I don't know whether in Serbia, but it was in

16    Republika Srpska and I also saw these people mentioned in the newspapers

17    who were promoted to the rank of Vojvoda.

18       Q.   When you discussed this with Kameni, did he mention a figure or a

19    number of volunteers that a Vojvoda would have -- a man would have to have

20    under his control to become a Vojvoda?

21       A.   Well, you see, once you're a Vojvoda because of your wartime

22    merits and you had been the commander of a military unit, of course you

23    had to have a certain number of volunteers.  In the Serb Radical Party

24    there were people who were promoted to the rank of Vojvoda who did not

25    participate in the war as such but who had assisted in other ways.  So

Page 2356

 1    some people in the Serb Radical Party never fired shots or participated in

 2    the fighting and they were granted the title of Vojvoda all the same.  So

 3    you can't really say how many men a Vojvoda had to have under his

 4    control.  It depended on the terrain, on the personality count.  Somebody

 5    people might prefer to be a volunteer under Kameni than someone else, so

 6    it would all depend, but there had to be a certain number of men, yes.  If

 7    the man was a commander, he can't be the commander of just two or three

 8    people, me, Pero, Janko, and himself; he had to have support.  He had to

 9    help the Serb Radical Party and get volunteers.

10       Q.   Would you agree that you would need a couple of hundred volunteers

11    under your command?

12       A.   Well, I'm telling you now that I don't know precisely whether

13    there was a kind of threshold.  As a commander of volunteers, if I had

14    less than 200, does that mean that I can or can't be a Vojvoda?  I don't

15    know.  Every commander had a certain number of men depending on the

16    situation on the ground.  There were also personality cults for Vojvodas.

17    For example, I could say, Well, I want to be commanded by Kameni and not

18    someone who is completely unknown, and then he would have a lot of

19    volunteers, not just members of the Serbian Radical Party but in Serbia

20    there were many, many volunteers.

21       Q.   Let me take you back to November 1991.  Did you command a platoon

22    in the Leva Supoderica Detachment?

23       A.   When I arrived in the Leva Supoderica Detachment I was a platoon

24    commander.  Our commander, a lieutenant, went missing.  We don't know to

25    this day what happened to him.  We assume he was captured and killed, and

Page 2357

 1    then pursuant to Kameni's orders or somebody else, somebody's orders I

 2    became a platoon commander and I remained a platoon commander until the

 3    end.

 4       Q.   And did any member of your platoon report to you that he had

 5    killed people at Ovcara?

 6       A.   Yes, one.

 7       Q.   Who?

 8       A.   He didn't report to me, you can't say he reported to me, but he

 9    bragged about it, he spoke about it, and of course nobody believed him.

10    Later on it turned out to be true because he has been convicted of war

11    crimes at Ovcara in Serbia.  His name was Djordje Soskic.  We called him

12    Ceca or Zorz.

13       Q.   What did he brag to you that he had done?

14       A.   Well, he said silly things to me at the time, that he had cut

15    people's throats with knives, but nobody believed him when he said that.

16       Q.   Why not?

17       A.   Well, you see, in our platoon he was a sort of mascot.  Very

18    rarely did I approve him going into action.  He probably remained in the

19    house we used as a headquarters, as a base, and he would have hot tea or

20    coffee waiting for us when we came back from action.  So he was just a

21    sort of janitor as far as we were concerned.

22       Q.   Why did you place him in the category of a janitor or somebody who

23    would make tea for you while you were out fighting?

24       A.   Well, quite simply, it's not that he was actually old but he

25    looked old.  He wasn't physically fit.  He was a very thin man.  In our

Page 2358

 1    platoon there were quite a few younger men who could run and fight and we

 2    thought that he couldn't and we thought that he would be more useful to us

 3    if he met us with hot tea when we went back to the base and procured

 4    necessities for us and so on.

 5       Q.   Where was he from?

 6       A.   From Krusevac.

 7       Q.   Where is that?

 8       A.   It's a town in Serbia.

 9       Q.   Was this man a volunteer from the Radical Party?

10       A.   He was a member of Leva Supoderica, but whether he was a member of

11    the Radical Party at the time or not, whether he became a member later on,

12    I can't say.  I don't know.  But he arrived there and his arrival was

13    organized by the Serb Radical Party when they were sending volunteers.

14       Q.   Did there come a time when you finally believed what he had told

15    you about killing people at Ovcara with a knife?

16       A.   When I was partially convinced that the event at Ovcara had

17    actually happened, I still didn't believe that he had participated in it.

18    I thought it was an exaggeration of his because he only went into action

19    once or twice.  I didn't let him, as a platoon commander, and I thought it

20    was just an ego trip, that he was just boasting.  And then when the

21    inspectors of the Serbian MUP invited me for an interview concerning

22    Ovcara and put many questions to me about him, that's when I started to

23    believe it.  When it became clear to me that possibly he might have been

24    telling the truth, and later on this was proved to be true.

25       Q.   On the day of the killings at Ovcara, where were you?

Page 2359

 1       A.   Well, you see, I don't know on what day the murders at Ovcara took

 2    place.  To this day, in spite of what it says in the media, in spite of

 3    the fact that I read about the proceedings, the trial of Kameni and others

 4    in the newspapers, I don't remember or recall the date when I heard

 5    something about it -- well, we didn't do anything.  I don't remember that

 6    I did anything.

 7       Q.   Do you know who -- do you know who organized the killings?

 8       A.   You mean did I know then or are you asking me about what I heard

 9    and learned later on?

10       Q.   As you sit here today.

11       A.   Well, not just today but even earlier I was aware, I wasn't a

12    hundred per cent convinced, but I think it was Miroljub who organized

13    this.

14       Q.   Can you give me his full name, please.

15       A.   Miroljub Vujovic, the TO commander.

16       Q.   Is that the TO in Vukovar?

17       A.   Yes, yes.

18       Q.   Did he organize the killings with anyone else to your knowledge?

19       A.   I don't know with who, but all the facts and everything I learned,

20    not just I but what I heard from others, leads me to conclude that it was

21    he who did this.  I don't know why.  He didn't do it on his own.  He was

22    an organizer.

23       Q.   Did he include you in the organizing of the killing at Ovcara?

24       A.   Me personally?

25       Q.   Yeah.

Page 2360

 1       A.   No, no.

 2       Q.   Do you know whom he invited to go out to Ovcara?

 3       A.   I don't know whether he invited anyone or not because I personally

 4    did not see or hear it, but from what was found out today, the people who

 5    were there learned that it would happen, they had to go there, and I

 6    assume it was he who organized this.  And as for the people who were

 7    duty-bound to go there and carry out the task, he probably selected them

 8    himself, I don't know, but I can't really say.

 9            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I'm noting the time and I'm about to move

10    into another topic, so may I suggest that we take our second break.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, just a minute, before

12    moving to something else I have a follow-up question.

13            Witness, Soskic, nicknamed Zorz, is a member of your platoon,

14    you're commanding this platoon and he is under your orders.  You told us

15    that this person was making coffee, tea, and was not really involved in

16    combat action except on two occasions.  This is what I would like to

17    know.  Since he's under your control, why is it that he ends up being

18    involved in the murders at Ovcara, murders committed by the TO, according

19    to what you said?  What happened?  How is it that somebody who's under

20    your command ends up in another unit committing crimes in Ovcara?  Could

21    you tell us how this could happen?

22            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, nobody from my platoon

23    was ever worried that I was not worried if Djordje Soskic was not present

24    at our base.  He just walked around, he wandered around often, and how he

25    went to Ovcara, who told him to go there or perhaps ordered him to go

Page 2361

 1    there, I might have been his platoon commander and I was, but other people

 2    could issue him with orders, also, not just me.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but when later on he told

 4    you that murders had been committed in Ovcara and he took part in these

 5    crimes, as a commander yourself what did you do?  You were the commander

 6    of this person.

 7            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all he said that he

 8    cut people's throats there, that he killed them in a very brutal manner,

 9    so how could I believe him?  I didn't believe him.  Secondly, my authority

10    was not -- it was not within my authority to conduct investigations.  And

11    thirdly, it was a taboo topic.  People never spoke about it openly.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13            I think it's time for the break.  We will have a 20-minute break.

14                          --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

15                          --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.  The

17    registrar told me that the Prosecution has already used two hours and

18    three minutes.

19            Please proceed, Ms. Dahl, but at this pace -- well, eight hours,

20    that's too much for us.  So you'll have to look at the timing again.

21            MS. DAHL:

22       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, let me bring your attention to a meeting that you

23    had in 2003 with Kameni after arrests taken place in connection with what

24    happened at Ovcara --

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judges, the Prosecution

Page 2362

 1    is not entitled to put leading questions.  The right way to put this

 2    question is whether this person had a meeting at all rather than establish

 3    that there had been a meeting, and so far we have not heard the witness

 4    say that there had been a meeting of this kind at all.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl, try to come to the

 6    question without sort of directing the witness, without putting a leading

 7    question.

 8            MS. DAHL:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I hadn't gotten to a question

 9    yet.  I was trying to focus the witness's attention on time and place.

10       Q.   Did you have a meeting in 2003 with Kameni?

11       A.   I wouldn't call it a meeting.  But we did go to visit our fellow

12    combatants a few times in Mitrovica, Ruma, and later on in Zemun and

13    Belgrade.  The reason was precisely the threat that there would be rest

14    arrests.  Miroljub and Stanko Vujanovic had already been arrested.

15       Q.   Did Kameni ask to meet with you or go somewhere with you?

16       A.   We lived in the same town.  We saw each other every day.  Yes, he

17    asked me to go with him.

18       Q.   Who were you going to go see?

19       A.   The first time we went to Sremska Mitrovica to visit Ceca.  That's

20    a man's nickname.  Later on I'm going to remember his name.  At this

21    moment I cannot.  We also called him captain, who was one of the

22    commanders during the war in Vukovar.  Later on together with him we went

23    to Ruma and saw Milojevic, Kinez.

24       Q.   On the way to pick up Ceca, did Kameni talk about the

25    investigation of Ovcara?

Page 2363

 1       A.   Yes.  We all knew about that already.  He personally had not been

 2    summoned yet.  Later on he was summoned to the MUP premises for an

 3    interview.  At that time he hadn't been and he doubted whether he would be

 4    called.

 5       Q.   What did you understand the purpose of the four of you getting

 6    together during the investigation of Ovcara to be?

 7       A.   Well, the purpose was simple, to talk about that and in a way,

 8    agree on how in case you were interviewed by the MUP you would answer.

 9    Well, in order to have an answer.  Quite simply, I -- no, I was not at

10    Ovcara but I was accompanying Kameni during the year before that,

11    certainly.  Kameni's a very sick man and it was always good for someone to

12    be with him.  Amongst themselves, they were trying to reach agreement on

13    this and they were discussing this.

14       Q.   Between 2002 and 2003 did you travel with Kameni?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Did you assist him in driving to pick up Ceca?

17       A.   No, Ceca was driving.

18       Q.   And after you -- after Ceca joined you, where did you go?

19       A.   To Ruma.

20       Q.   And --

21       A.   It's very nearby, it's the next town.

22       Q.   In Ruma where did you go?

23       A.   We stayed in Ruma.  We went to a restaurant near the railway

24    station.

25       Q.   Before going to the restaurant at the railway station, did you

Page 2364

 1    pick up Kinez?

 2       A.   I cannot remember whether he came on his own or whether Kameni or

 3    Ceca had informed him by mobile phone -- at any rate, he doesn't live far

 4    away from the railway station.

 5       Q.   How did the conversation start about what to say if there were

 6    questions about Ovcara?

 7       A.   They were reaching a very simple agreement.  I don't know whether

 8    Ceca, but Kinez and Kameni at one point were at Ovcara and they did see

 9    something there.  So they were trying to reach agreement as to what was

10    necessary and how to behave in case there were to be an investigation.  At

11    that moment, they did not know whether they were involved in the

12    investigation or not.

13       Q.   Did Kameni express concern about who might be prosecuted for what

14    happened at Ovcara?

15       A.   Well, no.  For himself he never -- well, he was not afraid

16    personally.  On the basis of all my socialising with him I understood, and

17    I'm practically convinced that he had not killed anyone there, but quite

18    simply the man was concerned, he was worried.  Until you prove that, you

19    can spend a certain amount of time in detention or whatever.  Quite

20    simply, the man was worried.

21       Q.   Where did he think the prosecutions would be held?

22       A.   Serbia, Belgrade.

23       Q.   Did he fashion a factual scenario that he thought would provide

24    him with a defence?

25       A.   Yes, he -- well, not he but they together reached this agreement

Page 2365

 1    or, simply, they were recounting what it was that had happened there in

 2    order to remember all of this in case of an investigation.  I remember

 3    that Ceca insisted that no one should mention JNA members being there at

 4    any point in time.  I don't know, but he simply insisted on that.  All the

 5    rest is the way they had put it there, and I remember that the defence in

 6    the court in Belgrade was like that.  The judgement pertaining to Kameni

 7    states that he did not personally take part in the liquidations, but that

 8    he was around.  I don't know about the others.  I did not follow.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're now speaking

10    about the judgement in Belgrade.  I'm not aware of it.  I don't have it.

11    But I'm trying to sort of shed some light.  All this is very complicated

12    indeed.  Kameni is, indeed, Milan Lancuzanin.  Was he acquitted by the

13    Belgrade court?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, he was convicted to a

15    maximum sentence at that.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was convicted?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18            MS. DAHL:

19       Q.   Did Kameni discuss the people who had been indicted in The Hague?

20       A.   No.  There was this case that was now brought to an end.  Major

21    Sljivancanin, that case, he talked about the Sljivancanin and Radic case.

22       Q.   Well, how did he think he could protect himself from guilt?

23       A.   He did not say that he could protect himself from guilt, or

24    rather, who?  Who would protect himself from guilt?

25       Q.   Well, I'm trying to understand the conversation.  You told me that

Page 2366

 1    they began talking about what to say if they were contacted by the MUP

 2    investigators.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Can you summarize what story they fashioned on that day?

 5       A.   I don't know whether the story was made up or whether it's simply

 6    a compilation of what happened there, but I can tell you what the

 7    conclusion was that they reached, how it was that they were supposed to

 8    speak in case there were to be an investigation.  Very briefly, they were

 9    in Belgrade on that day, which is certain.  I mean I'm almost certain that

10    Kameni was in Belgrade on that day.  That happened in the evening hours.

11    They came from Belgrade.  They find out that Miroljub is urgently asking

12    to see them, that he's -- or rather, Kameni heard that Miroljub was

13    looking for him and that he was asking for them to meet at Ovcara.  And

14    Kameni went there with his escorts to Ovcara.

15            He sees there that what was being prepared was a liquidation.

16    Kameni even tried to help someone there, a man there, but he did not

17    succeed in that.  In the stage when people were being transferred to some

18    vehicles and taken further away, I don't know whether these vehicles were

19    tractors or whatever, I can't remember now, Kameni ordered that they be

20    returned from Ovcara and go to their base in my street.  It was something

21    along those lines.  Yes, at the moment when Kameni left, Vujovic stops him

22    and says, You're not going to leave me now, are you?  And then he

23    answered, That's not my job.  And then he leaves.  That is roughly how

24    they summarized what it was that was going on.

25            Earlier on, too, earlier on Kameni presented this identical

Page 2367

 1    version not only to me but to other people too, something very similar to

 2    that much earlier in 1991.

 3       Q.   When you were listening to their conversation, could you tell

 4    whether they were talking about facts or making them up?

 5       A.   Well, I don't know.  It's certain that there is something there,

 6    but was it because they forgot or was it because they were making things

 7    up?  I don't know.  Not at a single moment did they say that they were

 8    guilty, that they had killed anyone there.  Quite simply, it seemed as if

 9    they were jogging each other's memory.  One would say, Do you remember

10    this?  And the other would say, Well, no, don't you remember that it was

11    something else.  It was along those lines.  Finally they came to a

12    conclusion.  They put together a picture, so to speak, regarding all of

13    this, and then they agreed that that is what they would say.

14            I cannot know whether that is the truth, partly the truth -- well,

15    quite simply, I wasn't there and in their conversation not at any point in

16    time could you get the impression that they were speaking in the context

17    of the actual perpetrators.  No.  That was not being referred to.  Now,

18    was it because of my presence or not, but I don't believe that it's

19    because of my presence.  At any rate, it is many years afterwards and even

20    if someone were a murderer, if he had any sense left, he would not admit

21    to that when judicial proceedings were already being prepared.

22       Q.   Did they discuss with you whether or not to -- I'm sorry, did they

23    discuss in front of you whether they should tell the truth if there was an

24    investigation by the Serbian judiciary or the Hague Tribunal?

25       A.   Whether they came to the conclusion that they should tell the

Page 2368

 1    truth, is that what you're asking?

 2       Q.   Did they discuss whether or not they should tell the truth when

 3    questioned?

 4       A.   No, they said that that's the only truth.  Kameni even repeated

 5    that, what they agreed upon -- well, all the things they heard, that that

 6    is the only truth, that that is the way we should defend ourselves if any

 7    one of us were to be investigated.  They still thought that they would not

 8    be accused, not any one of them, they simply thought that they could be

 9    interviewed in investigation proceedings.

10       Q.   Did Ceca discuss how to minimise JNA involvement?

11       A.   Ceca who?  Ceca who?

12       Q.   Ceca who was in the meeting with you at the restaurant, at the

13    railway station.

14       A.   Oh, Ceca, you mean.  Ceca spoke about it -- well, he's a man who

15    exceptionally likes and respects Major Sljivancanin, and he told us then

16    that he is often in touch with him over the telephone and they would even

17    see each other at military hotels while he was still in hiding.  And I

18    know 100 per cent sure that they were close, that they socialised after

19    the war, Ceca and he.

20       Q.   Did he say in front of you that they should try to minimise the

21    JNA involvement by saying they saw only uniforms of the Vukovar

22    Territorial Defence?

23       A.   He said that the JNA should not be involved in any of this in any

24    way, not to diminish their presence or whatever, that they should not say

25    that JNA uniforms were seen there.  That is what he was saying to Kameni,

Page 2369

 1    something along those lines, because he was afraid that Major Sljivancanin

 2    could be convicted here.

 3       Q.   Did you make any suggestions about uniforms?

 4       A.   I?

 5       Q.   Yeah.

 6       A.   No -- well, I did say that we were all in JNA uniforms and that it

 7    would be silly to say that we didn't say -- that we didn't see JNA

 8    uniforms when we wore them ourselves, JNA uniforms.  I mean, from 5 or 10

 9    metres away you could not distinguish different uniforms.

10       Q.   What was Kinez's reaction to your comments about what to say about

11    uniforms?

12       A.   Kinez, Kinez -- I mean Ceca and Kameni had their own version of

13    the event and Kameni had his own.  And conditionally speaking, it was

14    Kameni's version that was adopted.  But I had heard it earlier on.  It

15    wasn't that Kameni said anything new then.  In 1991 he said that he saw it

16    that way, along similar lines.  He never denied that he had been at

17    Ovcara.  He never participated in that massacre.  He never said that he

18    did anything there.  Many years later as well -- well, I personally think

19    that he didn't, he, he, we are talking about him, the man, the person.

20       Q.   Did Kameni suggest that he and others were all at the SRS Main

21    Staff in Belgrade that day?

22       A.   Well, now I'm not sure whether it was at the Serb Radical Party in

23    Belgrade, but I am convinced that it was in Belgrade.  Well, why not at

24    the premises of the Serb Radical Party in Belgrade?  Well, at this moment

25    I cannot recall.  Maybe I will remember later.  He didn't insist on that

Page 2370

 1    detail.  Quite simply, Belgrade was Belgrade.

 2       Q.   Do you know whether -- as you sit here today remembering the

 3    events, what you saw of Kameni on the day of the massacre at Ovcara?

 4       A.   I never can say on what day the massacre at Ovcara was committed.

 5    I cannot say the exact day, but when something happened in Ovcara in the

 6    evening, Kameni said that all platoon commanders should check the number

 7    of personnel in their platoons.

 8       Q.   Did you do that?

 9       A.   I did that, but that was nothing new.  We often did that if the

10    commander asked us to check the personnel level.  Yes, I did that.  A few

11    of my people were missing, but it's not that it was serious -- well,

12    except for a few that had taken their regular leave, gone home.  If people

13    were not in action for a couple of days, well, they were prone to

14    loitering about.

15       Q.   So did you -- do you know whether or not Kameni was absent that

16    day or not?

17       A.   He himself said that he was.

18       Q.   When Kameni established the factual situation, did they agree that

19    they would tell anybody else what their version of the facts was?

20       A.   I don't know.  No one ever publicly lined up the unit and said

21    such and such a thing happened or such and such a thing did not happen.

22    Quite simply, in the command the commander said that strange things were

23    going on.  I cannot use his exact word now, but he said that what was

24    going on there was not a good thing.  And then he asked for the personnel

25    level and then we all went to handle that, and then we returned to the

Page 2371

 1    command and said what the respective personnel levels were.  But basically

 2    what he said was that bad things were happening at Ovcara.  He wasn't

 3    speaking in literal terms, that there was killing going on there,

 4    something like that.  It is only that word went from mouth-to-mouth a few

 5    days later.

 6       Q.   In 2003 when you are meeting with Kameni and Ceca and Kinez, did

 7    Kameni tell you something about trying to release a prisoner?

 8       A.   He didn't speak to me.  He was speaking to everyone.  I think that

 9    he did mention that event, that he tried.  Now, was this an acquaintance

10    of his or not, I don't know.  It wouldn't be surprising if it were his

11    acquaintance because, after all, Kameni was born in Vukovar, lived there

12    all his life.  After all, they were a reputable family, they were

13    carpenters, they had their own company.

14       Q.   So what story did he give you about trying to save a prisoner or

15    mention in front of you?

16       A.   Well, he saw a man there who had been taken prisoner.  He tried to

17    take him away from there.  That's what he said, but Miroljub didn't allow

18    it.  That is literally that.

19       Q.   Did he tell you what he replied when the prisoner asked for help?

20       A.   I don't remember.  I said that the prisoner asking for help, most

21    probably he recognised the prisoner and tried to help him.

22       Q.   I'm asking what you remember of what Kameni told you or said in

23    front of you when you in 2003 were meeting with Ceca and Kinez and Kameni?

24       A.   He said that if there was an investigation, that was a detail that

25    had to be mentioned.  I don't doubt that he tried to assist someone

Page 2372

 1    there.  That's what he said to Ceca, If they question, you mention that

 2    detail also, don't let there be accusations only, let it also be said that

 3    we tried to help someone.

 4       Q.   Did Ceca try to call Sljivancanin during that meeting?

 5       A.   Not Sljivancanin.  He tried to contact him but he said he was

 6    unable to establish contact with him right away.  He did it through

 7    someone and an hour later Sljivancanin himself called him, but it didn't

 8    happen while we were sitting there.

 9       Q.   What didn't happen, the call back or --

10       A.   Yes.  The call back did not happen.

11       Q.   When the meeting concluded, was there any indication on whether

12    they were going to share the story with other people who might be

13    involved?

14       A.   I don't know whether they told that to anyone else.  We also went

15    to Zemun and saw some people there and it was always the same story, in

16    essence.  Whether each of them separately then retold the story to others,

17    I don't know.  It didn't seem to be an order issued by Kameni.  He was no

18    longer the commander anyway.  It was simply people who knew each other,

19    Ceca, Kinez, myself.

20       Q.   Did there come a point in time where Kameni was interviewed by the

21    Belgrade MUP?

22       A.   That was a special MUP unit for investigating war crimes, but it

23    wasn't in Belgrade.  They came to Sid, and then over a three-day period

24    they interviewed many people in Sid, including Bora Bogunovic, Kameni, and

25    myself very briefly.  Kinez was taken to Belgrade to take a lie detector

Page 2373

 1    test, and after that, he was released.  He came back to Sid right away.

 2    He told us that he had been tested with a lie detector and that everything

 3    was all right.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say that as part of the

 5    investigation, the MUP uses lie detector tests?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but Milojevic was the one.

 7    Kameni didn't say that he had taken a lie detector test.

 8            MS. DAHL:

 9       Q.   But when you met with -- I'm sorry, did you meet with Kameni and

10    his lawyer after Kameni's interview?

11       A.   He wasn't his lawyer yet, but Kameni wanted to engage him for the

12    simple reason that he was already afraid.  It's always better, even in the

13    investigation phase, to have a lawyer working for you for the simple

14    reason that Kameni can't concentrate very well.  He's suffered two or

15    three strokes, and he didn't want to make any statements without the

16    presence of a lawyer.

17       Q.   Did Kameni tell you about the interview he had with investigators

18    from The Hague Tribunal?

19       A.   Yes.  He offered me a video which I didn't want to view.  He told

20    me that his entire interview was there, and he took his lawyer along for

21    that too.  He didn't go to meet The Hague investigators without his

22    lawyer.  He returned home.  We went to have a coffee together, and he said

23    that there were audio and video recordings of that interview and they gave

24    him a cassette at his insistence.

25       Q.   Did Kameni tell you anything about what to say if you were

Page 2374

 1    contacted by investigators about Ovcara?

 2       A.   No, no one involved me in that.  I wasn't there.  It was more an

 3    agreement among the people who had been at Ovcara at a certain point in

 4    time.  I was not in Ovcara.

 5       Q.   Did the lawyer tell people present at that meeting to forget about

 6    it like it never happened?

 7       A.   [No interpretation].

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judge, such questions

 9    can't be asked.  The question could be:  What did the lawyer say, not

10    whether the lawyer said this or that.  It's a leading question.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.  Mr. Seselj

12    is right.  Please rephrase your question.

13            MS. DAHL:

14       Q.   Did the lawyer give any instructions about how to address

15    questions about the events at Ovcara?

16       A.   Quite simply, he said at the end, Just go home quietly, don't be

17    afraid, just forget it ever happened as if it had never been, something

18    like that.

19       Q.   Did Kameni give any instructions about using cellular telephones

20    to contact each other?

21       A.   We took the batteries out of the mobile phones during the

22    conversation.

23       Q.   What was the effect of removing the batteries?

24       A.   Well, I don't know.  There's a belief, I don't know whether

25    technically that's how it is or not, that if you do that, no one can

Page 2375

 1    listen in, no intelligence services can listen in.  I don't know if that's

 2    true or not, but I did remove the battery from my phone.

 3       Q.   Was it an attempt to keep anybody from listening to your

 4    conversations?

 5       A.   Yes.  You know what?  People were afraid.  If there was an

 6    investigation, they thought someone might be listening in, might be

 7    bugging certain persons.

 8       Q.   So is it your testimony today that you left the meeting with

 9    Kameni and Ceca and Kinez with the impression that they had gotten

10    together to refresh each other's memories and tell a truthful, consistent

11    story?

12       A.   They did refresh each other's memory and fill in the gaps in each

13    other's stories, but whether what you say is true, I can't say.  I don't

14    know.

15       Q.   So you didn't consider they were making an attempt to cover up

16    their role in the Ovcara massacre?

17       A.   Well, if they did have a role in the Ovcara massacre they didn't

18    discuss it in front of me or probably in front of anyone.  So no one could

19    conclude that they actually did participate in the massacre.  Quite

20    simply, they were there.  It turns out they were witnesses, and it was not

21    my conclusion that that was what they were actually doing, that that was

22    the gist of their conversation.  The conversation was conducted in such a

23    manner that they were simply filling in the gaps in each other's

24    recollections.  I didn't have the impression that they were trying to

25    cover up their personal participation, at least they didn't mention

Page 2376

 1    anything like that.  If one of them had said, You know, we're not going to

 2    say we killed this one or that one, let's say something else, they didn't

 3    say that.  They never mentioned murders.  They saw it as a problem, but

 4    either they were innocent or they were afraid someone was listening in.

 5    There can be various reasons.

 6       Q.   But you were listening in, weren't you?

 7       A.   Yes, yes, I was.

 8       Q.   And there were points in the conversation where it got hot, yes?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And those were the points where they began to omit personal

11    involvement when they were discussing things in front of you?

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judges, this is again a

13    leading question.  The Prosecutor has no right to put such questions.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl, it is true that the

15    way you phrased your question was a bit suggestive, leading.  Could you

16    please reformulate your question?

17            MS. DAHL:  With respect, Your Honour, I need to get a clear answer

18    before I confront Mr. Stoparic with his signed statement to the contrary.

19    So if I can beg your indulgence and get either a yes or no, and I can ask

20    Mr. Stoparic to look at his statement.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we have here some matter

22    of procedure.  This is a viva voce testimony.  This is not 92 ter, so

23    theoretically, the written statement does not need to be produced or

24    presented unless you decide that you need to refresh his memory because on

25    one point in the written statement that you have he is being evasive.

Page 2377

 1    Then show him the written statement according to the rules of the Appeals

 2    Chamber just to refresh his memory, saying, This is what you said earlier

 3    and now I will show you the written statement where you say something --

 4    some other thing.  You come from the common-law system.  You know exactly

 5    what I'm hinting at.

 6            MS. DAHL:  Yes, Your Honour, I understand --

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So please follow the procedure.

 8            MS. DAHL:

 9       Q.   Do you recall whether there were points during the conversation

10    that it appeared to get hot when the conversation touched on the personal

11    involvement of the participants in the Ovcara massacre?

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object again.  The question could

13    be, Were there stages where the conversation became hot?  Not whether, Do

14    you recall whether this happened?  The Prosecutor can say whether any

15    points where the conversation became hot.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl, please rephrase.

17            MS. DAHL:  I need to --

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As -- since there's some

19    problems, maybe I will ask the question myself.

20            Witness, you were having a conversation with people who,

21    rightfully or wrongfully, believe that maybe one day they might be heard

22    by an investigating judge in Serbia.  This is a meeting which you attend,

23    and the discussion is on what might have happened at Ovcara.  According to

24    your recollection, what were the position of each and everyone in relation

25    to what had happened at Ovcara?  Could you say exactly what each and

Page 2378

 1    everyone said regarding this, and then we will continue on with other

 2    questions.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  I did

 4    not participate in the conversation.  I spoke up very little.  Kameni was

 5    very calm, but Ceca said to Kinez very often, Keep quiet, you know nothing

 6    about it.  Or, The other way around.  The two of them spoke more loudly

 7    and they often contradicted each other about various points.  Kameni was

 8    the only one who was calm throughout the conversation.  If that's what you

 9    are referring to in your questions --

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Something's up, there's four of

11    you, yourself, Kameni, Ceca, and Kinez.  According to what you're saying,

12    you're in the background and not really taking part in the conversation.

13    Kameni is still -- is very quiet, but it seems that there is tension

14    between Ceca and Kinez.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  According to you,

17    what is the reason for this tension?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Quite simply, for example, Kinez

19    would start a sentence and Ceca would interrupt him and stop him from

20    completing it.  So Kinez never managed to complete his sentence so I

21    couldn't tell you what he intended to say.  They knew each other better

22    than I knew either one of them.  They had spent more time in each other's

23    company.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25            Now, starting from this foundation, Mrs. Dahl, could you please

Page 2379

 1    continue.  We could probably save time if I was asking the questions, but

 2    this is not provided for in the Rules.

 3            MS. DAHL:

 4       Q.   Let me go back to when you got involved in the conversation.  Did

 5    you make a suggestion about whether the group should acknowledge wearing

 6    JNA uniforms?

 7       A.   Yes, I've already said.  It's absurd to say that I didn't see any

 8    JNA uniforms there when we ourselves were wearing JNA uniforms.

 9       Q.   Did Kinez reply to you when you made that suggestion?

10       A.   Well, he might have said, Shut up, you fool, or something like

11    that.  I can't remember right now.

12       Q.   Let me show you your statement to refresh your recollection.

13            MS. DAHL:  In e-court document 07044.

14       Q.   Let me ask you to look at paragraph 152.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, we need to have

16    paragraph 152 in English and 152 in the -- in Serbian.

17            MS. DAHL:  In Serbian the paragraph is located at page 36, the

18    internal page number of the document.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have paragraph 152 in Serbian

20    and 152 in English.  The best would be to have both paragraphs side by

21    side, please.

22            MS. DAHL:

23       Q.   Can you review paragraph 152 to see if it refreshes your

24    recollection about what Kinez said to you when you involved yourself in

25    the conversation.

Page 2380

 1       A.   Well, I've answered that.  It's precisely what I said.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, Witness, please read this

 3    paragraph in your language out loud, please.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "That was the first time I got

 5    involved in the conversation.  I said that we, that is, the members of

 6    the 'Leva Supoderica' Detachment wore new JNA camouflage uniforms that we

 7    received at the 'Velepromet' facility in Vukovar.  'Kinez' said to me that

 8    I should shut up and be happy because I wasn't there."

 9            Well, that's precisely what I said, Kinez told me to shut up --

10    well, it says here he told me to be glad I hadn't been there, well, quite

11    simply, I could not be a subject of investigation.

12            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, I need to make a request for an

13    interpreter's clarification.  You asked the witness to read and in the

14    English the words "we would say" were omitted from the interpretation from

15    the second sentence that begins: " ...  I said that we would say that the

16    members ..."

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18            We'll do this once again.  Please read this paragraph again out

19    loud slowly.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "That was the first time I got

21    involved in the conversation.  I said that we, that is, the members of

22    the 'Leva Supoderica' Detachment wore new JNA camouflage uniforms that we

23    received at the 'Velepromet' facility in Vukovar.  'Kinez' said to me that

24    I should shut up and by happy because I wasn't there."

25            That's what it says here.  Probably it wasn't what he said.  He

Page 2381

 1    probably said I should be glad that I hadn't been there.

 2            MS. DAHL:

 3       Q.   Does that refresh your recollection about what Kinez said?

 4       A.   Madam Prosecutor, that's what I said previously.  I, quite simply,

 5    didn't recall that he said I should be glad I hadn't been there.  But even

 6    before I read this out aloud, I told you all this.

 7       Q.   Did you --

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please.  When you're

 9    saying that he should be glad I hadn't been there, means not be at

10    Velepromet, is that it?  You should be happy not to have been in Ovcara,

11    not to have not been at the meeting?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He meant to say I should be glad I

13    hadn't been at Ovcara.

14            MS. DAHL:

15       Q.   Did you understand that the people in the conversation that day

16    were making an agreement about what they would say to investigators if

17    they were questioned?

18       A.   Well, of course.  They were agreeing as to how they should conduct

19    themselves if they were interviewed about it.

20       Q.   Did they agree on a factual situation that was different from what

21    you personally observed when you were in Vukovar?

22       A.   Previously Kameni had said something similar to this, not only to

23    me but to others, as early as 1991.  But I have no way of knowing whether

24    it was to distract attention from the actual events or not because I

25    myself was not an eye-witness of the events at Ovcara.

Page 2382

 1       Q.   Mr. Stoparic, I want to repeat my question.  Did the factual

 2    scenario they agreed upon that day differ from what you personally

 3    observed at Vukovar?

 4       A.   Well, I'm telling you, I couldn't observe anything at Ovcara

 5    personally.

 6       Q.   Did you observe whether or not Kameni was there or in Belgrade at

 7    the particular points in time that we're discussing?

 8       A.   Kameni says he was in Belgrade in the morning.  You see, to go

 9    from Belgrade to Vukovar by car it takes two and a half hours or even less

10    if you have a good car.  In wartime the motorway was empty, there was no

11    traffic, so you could get there even faster.  He came in the evening, and

12    I'm almost certain that for reasons of his own he went to Belgrade in the

13    morning.  That's all I can say.

14       Q.   Did you have contact with him when he returned to the Leva

15    Supoderica command post?

16       A.   Late in the evening when he asked for the numbers of men.  It was

17    already winter so it had been dark for a long time already.  It was in the

18    evening.  I couldn't tell you what time.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question of military

20    nature.  I saw in your military record that in 1992 you were promoted

21    lieutenant, so I'm sure you will immediately understand my question.  When

22    Mr. Kameni leaves for Belgrade during the day, obviously, who takes

23    command in his absence?

24            THE WITNESS:  [Previous translation continues] ...

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Previous translation continues] ... in

Page 2383

 1    question?  Is it you?  Are you the one in command?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was a platoon commander.  If

 3    Kameni went somewhere, he probably appointed someone to be acting

 4    commander.  On such occasions, it could have been Katic if he wasn't with

 5    him, Kinez, Ceca.  He could simply appoint someone for the period of time

 6    of his absence to be acting commander,, not to command but to be a sort of

 7    duty officer in the command, to keep an eye on things.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your unit was there a duty

 9    officer?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there was.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12            Mrs. Dahl, we have about five minutes before the end of this

13    hearing.

14            MS. DAHL:

15       Q.   When Kameni came back from Belgrade, what was his state of mind or

16    his physical presence when he contacted you?

17       A.   When he came back from Belgrade I did not see him, that very

18    moment when he returned from Belgrade.  Quite simply, I didn't need him, I

19    had no questions for him, and nothing was happening at the front.  I saw

20    him later when he called all platoon commanders via courier to come to a

21    meeting, when he told us to check personnel levels, that people should not

22    be allowed to stroll about.  When people are idle and just strolling

23    about, they are prone to looting.  So that is how I understood his

24    orders.  That's when I saw him.  Now, whether he was upset or not, well,

25    he was quite upset, tired.  I don't know how to describe this to you now.

Page 2384

 1    Quite simply, he was tired.

 2       Q.   Can you describe his demeanour?  Was he -- I don't want to put

 3    words in your mouth.  I'm interested in what you observed from him.

 4       A.   As commander, he was always a cool, calm man; otherwise, he would

 5    not have been a commander.  He's a reasonable man, but of course he would

 6    get tired, upset, and any incident could upset him.  He's a human being

 7    too, quite simply.  Then, like all the rest of us, he was already tired

 8    and upset enough.  But at that moment I didn't know why he was upset and I

 9    did not investigate that, and to tell you quite frankly, I didn't care.  I

10    was there, I carried out my order, and that's the kind of relationship we

11    had.  We never disrupted that relationship.  I always knew that I was the

12    subordinate.

13       Q.   Did his demeanour cause you to think that there was something

14    wrong or something out of the ordinary?

15       A.   Well, after the personnel were counted, one realized that

16    something was not right.  He did not mention the TO or Miroljub, but quite

17    simply the man did not want to make everything public straight away.  He

18    didn't want to disturb the soldiers too, probably, but he just told us

19    probably what he thought was sufficient.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I think we should

21    end now.  It's almost 1.15.

22            Sir, you are under oath.  You're a witness of justice now and you

23    cannot contact the Prosecution.  We will meet tomorrow morning and -- at

24    8.30.  Thank you.

25            MS. DAHL:  Your Honour --

Page 2385

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Dahl.

 2            MS. DAHL:  I would ask for a complete instruction.  It would be

 3    inappropriate for him to contact either the Prosecution or the Defence or

 4    to discuss his testimony with anyone else, for that matter.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, obviously.  That's obvious,

 6    it goes without saying.

 7            But, Witness, you can contact no one, absolutely no one.  Thank

 8    you.

 9            The hearing is adjourned and we will meet tomorrow at 8.30.

10                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

11                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

12                          January, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.