Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4659

1 Tuesday, 11 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.31 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you call the case,

7 please, Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning to everyone in

9 the courtroom. This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

10 Vojislav Seselj.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12 Today, on Tuesday, I would like to greet the Prosecution, the

13 witness, Mr. Seselj, and everyone else assisting us with our task.

14 I note that the Prosecution has a new member and I invite the new

15 representative of the Prosecution to introduce himself.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

17 day, Mr. President, Madam Judge. My name is Gilles Dutertre. I joined

18 the Tribunal Prosecution in 2005. I worked on the Haradinaj case earlier

19 on and I've been assigned to the Seselj case. This was done in January

20 2008. I'm also assisted today by others you whom you do not know,

21 attorney, Carrie Spiros, who has also worked on the preparation on the

22 proofing of this witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. On behalf of my

24 colleagues I'd like to welcome you to this Tribunal, to this courtroom.

25 We'll now start with the hearing of the witness. I'd also like

Page 4660

1 to point out that the Chamber has rendered a written decision that was

2 filed yesterday, and unfortunately as far as I know, it has not yet been

3 translated into the accused's language. But this written decision stated

4 that the procedure followed would be a viva voce procedure, not a 92 ter

5 procedure. So the witness will be heard viva voce and no written

6 statements will be admitted. The legal officer has said that the

7 Prosecution has two and a half hours for its examination-in-chief and the

8 Defence will also have two and a half hours at its disposal, which means

9 in theory at least that we should conclude with the examination-in-chief

10 today and perhaps we'll have time to start with the cross-examination, I

11 don't know. Tomorrow we'll continue hearing the witness and we will

12 start with the second witness on Thursday.

13 I can see that Mr. Seselj is raising his hand. Yes, Mr. Seselj,

14 I give you the floor.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I had three

16 important administrative matters to raise, but since the witness is

17 already in the courtroom, I could do that after the break, during the

18 next session.

19 And I'd just like to make an observation here. Last night at

20 1900 hours I received the translation of your decision in Serbian to the

21 effect that this witness would be testifying viva voce. However, I

22 consider that that is inappropriate, that prior to the testimony itself I

23 receive this at the eleventh hour, because I must be given some time to

24 prepare. And since this witness was supposed to be examined under 92

25 ter, I did not prepare to examine him. Now he appears as a viva voce

Page 4661

1 witness and I have to prepare for the cross-examination.

2 Now why am I saying all this? I demand in future you do not act

3 in that same fashion. I'm not going to do anything to put off this

4 testimony or to waste time, but I don't think anything like that should

5 be repeated in the future. I must be given a certain amount of time to

6 prepare myself and I can't be taken by surprise. You say now it's going

7 to be a 92 ter witness and then it turns out to be a viva voce witness

8 and there's absolute chaos.

9 And the key question is this: Why is this witness going to

10 testify viva voce now? Because the Prosecution doesn't have any other

11 witnesses so they wish to fill up their time in any way they can. I'm

12 happy to see that this witness is going to testify viva voce otherwise,

13 but please don't repeat this. I'm not going to postpone anything today.

14 I am prepared to listen to the examination-in-chief of this witness. And

15 please prepare enough time for me to raise three important administrative

16 sessions -- questions at the beginning of the next session.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll deal with

18 administrative issues after the break. We won't call the witness into

19 the courtroom immediately.

20 Mr. Seselj, I'll go back to what you were saying last week. You

21 stated that you are totally opposed to the 92 ter procedure. In spite of

22 your position, the Chamber decided to hear the preceding witness pursuant

23 to this procedure, and you said that in such a situation you would not

24 cross-examine the witness. You informed us of your position.

25 After the hearing on Thursday the Judges decided that the witness

Page 4662

1 to appear would be heard viva voce, and so on Friday the legal officer,

2 the Chamber's legal officer, informed via mail Ms. Raguz of this fact.

3 So if your team is functioning perfectly well, she should have called you

4 from Belgrade to inform you of this change. As of Friday, in our

5 opinion, you were officially informed of the fact that this would be a

6 viva voce witness. So you had Saturday, Sunday, Monday, you had three

7 days to prepare, which is quite sufficient given your perfect knowledge

8 of all the events. This is what I wanted to point out.

9 As far as the three administrative issues are concerned, they

10 will be dealt with subsequently.

11 Yes, Mr. Seselj.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am informed only

13 once I receive the information. Perhaps the clerk did receive this on

14 Friday by e-mail; however, we had a meeting on Friday in the evening, so

15 this e-mail message did not reach the legal officer. But what does that

16 mean, that he was informed? Marina Raguz isn't going to prepare for the

17 cross-examination. It was Saturday and Sunday, so how could you contact

18 me in the detention centre in prison? So why did the secretariat not

19 send me that information in the detention unit, because I'm available day

20 and night. Had the guards brought me that information during the night I

21 would have received it. So that's really out of order. And I'm doing my

22 best to see that my case managers and legal advisors are separate from

23 the Registry, because from the Registry there are all sorts of plots

24 going on, setups.

25 So if I'm not informed, then nobody is and that's the principle

Page 4663

1 that must be respected. And I said that I should be informed personally,

2 and then I could issue assignments to my associates, not the Registry to

3 contact them directly. I do not allow that. The Registry cannot contact

4 my associates directly with respect to various issues, let alone

5 information and matters of proceeding or the disclosure of material. I

6 just will not allow that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will try to

8 improve the system. There are pieces of information that should be

9 informed to you. We will try to provide you with them directly through

10 the unit you are currently in, and this should make it possible to

11 proceed more smoothly. But if Marina Raguz received the mail, well, she

12 should have been informed of the mail. And even if she was with you in

13 The Hague, given the technical systems in existence, she could receive

14 the mail on her mobile phone, and so on and so forth. But anyway there

15 has been a problem and you said that she wasn't able to inform you of the

16 change of the situation. We take note of the fact and we'll try and

17 improve the system. But whatever the case may be, there is no prejudice

18 against you because it hasn't been necessary to prepare in great depth

19 for this witness, given all your knowledge.

20 Sir, please stand up. Could you tell me your first and last

21 names and your date of birth, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Vil Karlovic, born on the 27th

23 of October, 1970.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession at

25 the moment, if you have a profession?

Page 4664

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a retired officer.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have retired from the

3 army?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't work in the army. I am

5 the owner of a construction firm and I work as a manager for real estate.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, have you

7 already testified in a case concerning events in the former Yugoslavia,

8 either in this Tribunal, either here, or in your own country?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified before this Tribunal, I

10 think this might even be the fourth time that I'm here, and I testified

11 before the court in Belgrade as well.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you have

13 testified here on four occasions and on one occasion in Belgrade. We'll

14 try and go through all the cases you testified in so that we can avoid

15 any unpleasant surprises, as we had such a surprise a while ago. As far

16 as you can remember, which cases have you testified in?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember testifying in the

18 following trials: Dokmanovic, Mr. Dokmanovic; the Mrksic, Radic and

19 Sljivancanin trial; and I also testified in Belgrade in the -- as a

20 defence witness for one of the accused. I'm not quite sure, Judge,

21 whether I am -- I have testified in this Tribunal three or four times. I

22 think that this is the fourth time.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, just a minute. You have

24 mentioned two cases, Dokmanovic and the Vukovar 3 case. That's two, not

25 four. We need another two.

Page 4665

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite sure now what other

2 trials I testified in.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the cases that you

4 testified in here, were you a witness for the Prosecution or for the

5 Defence?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a Prosecution witness.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. In Belgrade I believe

8 that you were a defence witness. Have I understood this correctly?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whose -- who were you

11 testifying for?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence of two men who saved my

13 life. They were members of the Serbian forces, and that's it.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And why were they being

15 prosecuted?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were being prosecuted for the

17 Ovcara case.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, could you

19 please read out the solemn declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please sit down, sir.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 4666

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'd like to provide you with

2 some information before I give the floor to Mr. Seselj, who has an

3 objection it seems. You will first have to answer the questions put to

4 you by the representative of the Prosecution, who is to your right and

5 whom you have certainly met. You must have met him this weekend or

6 yesterday in the course of the proofing for this hearing today. The

7 Prosecution will have two and a half hours at their disposal.

8 Once the examination-in-chief has been completed, Mr. Seselj, who

9 is to your left, will also put questions to you for two and a half hours.

10 The two Judges sitting before you may also intervene at any point

11 in time and put questions to you, either to obtain additional information

12 you provided to the questions or because there are subjects that must be

13 addressed by the witness in the interests of justice.

14 As you already have a certain amount of experience in these

15 proceedings, I won't go into any further detail.

16 Mr. Seselj, you raised your hand. Why?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the

18 Prosecution should tell us how many trials Mr. Karlovic has testified

19 before the Hague Tribunal. If he can't remember, then the Prosecution

20 must have their official records and inform us thereof.

21 Secondly, since it was only last night at 1900 hours that I was

22 informed that this witness would be testifying viva voce, it is only last

23 night that I began to prepare for my defence and I read out his testimony

24 in the Mrksic trial and the testimony in Belgrade. Now, perhaps the

25 Prosecution did not provide me with the Dokmanovic testimony. I wasn't

Page 4667

1 able to find it last night. So if they haven't provided me with that --

2 the records of that testimony, I would like to ask them to do so, because

3 I had very little time last night at my disposal to go through all the

4 documents.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 I have two questions for the Prosecution, then. The testimony in

7 the Dokmanovic case, was it provided to the accused? And my second

8 question: Well, according to the witness, he has testified on four

9 occasions. He has mentioned two cases he testified in and apparently he

10 testified in four cases. Perhaps there is some confusion here.

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I

12 wanted to comment on the number of cases the witness testified in, but I

13 didn't want to interrupt you. The witness testified in three cases for

14 the Prosecution. The first one was in 1996, pursuant to Rule R61. The

15 second case was the Dokmanovic case and then there was the Mrksic case.

16 So there are three cases he testified in.

17 As far as the Dokmanovic case is concerned, his testimony in the

18 Dokmanovic case, the testimony was provided to Seselj on the 9th of

19 November, 2007, and the number is 105, the number of this document.

20 Everything has been summarised in a bundle of documents that were filed

21 and that go over everything pursuant to Rule 66 of the Rules of Procedure

22 and Evidence. We could provide you with a copy of this now if you like,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you also provide

25 Mr. Seselj with a copy, a copy in his own language if you have such a

Page 4668

1 document. You mentioned Rule 61. Which accused does this concern?

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it concerns Mrksic,

3 Radic, and Sljivancanin.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So if you could

5 provide Mr. Seselj with a copy of the testimony in the Dokmanovic case,

6 he'll be able to have a look at it during the break, because he hasn't

7 brought it with him.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the problem was with the

9 interpretation. The Prosecutor said that this witness appeared three

10 times before the Hague Tribunal and then it turned out that it was twice

11 in the Dokmanovic trial and once in the Mrksic trial. That's what the

12 interpreter said. I'm not sure I followed him. Were they really -- was

13 it really testimony on two occasions in the same trial, the Dokmanovic

14 trial, or was a third trial mentioned? I'm not quite clear on that.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think that according to Rule

16 R61 it was in the Mrksic case. He testified twice in the Mrksic case and

17 once in the Dokmanovic case. Is that correct?

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] He testified once in 1996 in the

19 Mrksic case, pursuant to Rule 61, and then in Dokmanovic and then in the

20 Mrksic case again in 2006.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Everything is clear

22 now. I give you the floor for your examination-in-chief.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Karlovic. I'm going to put a

Page 4669

1 series of questions to you on behalf of the Prosecution. Did you serve

2 in the Yugoslav army, Mr. Karlovic?

3 A. No, I did not serve in that army.

4 Q. Did you serve in the Croatian army?

5 A. Yes, I did serve in the Croatian army.

6 Q. When did you serve in the Croatian army?

7 A. I served in the Croatian army from the 5th of August, 1991, to

8 the 1st of January, 2002.

9 Q. Why did you join the Croatian army?

10 A. I joined the Croatian army because the war began in Croatia and I

11 was a patriot. I loved my country; I was brought up in that way. And my

12 homeland was attacked by the aggressor forces and I considered it my duty

13 to stand in the defence of my homeland.

14 Q. You said that your homeland had been attacked by an aggressor.

15 Who was the aggressor? Can you tell us, please?

16 A. The aggressor was the Yugoslav People's Army, with all the other

17 people that helped it.

18 Q. When you say "people who helped it," who do you have in mind?

19 A. I am referring to the Serb forces, the Territorial Defence, and

20 the Chetnik volunteer detachments.

21 Q. Which part of your homeland was attacked at the time that you

22 were in the army?

23 A. Well, to all intents and purposes it was throughout Croatia that

24 such acts on the part of the aggressor were carried out, and the

25 situation was worse in Eastern Slavonia, Banija, Kordun. That was where

Page 4670

1 the situation was most critical and the area around Knin.

2 Q. Where is the town of Vukovar located? Is it in one of these

3 regions, areas?

4 A. Vukovar is located in Eastern Slavonia.

5 Q. Thank you. What was the name of the unit you were in? Was it a

6 company, a brigade? Which unit were you a part of? Which unit did you

7 join?

8 A. I was in the 1st Brigade of the National Guards Corps and it was

9 called the 4th Battalion at the time, and I was in the 3rd Company of

10 that battalion.

11 Q. Could you tell us what the name of the commander of your company

12 was and what the name of his deputy was?

13 A. The commander's name was Tihomir Perkovic and his deputy was

14 Josip Nemec.

15 Q. How many men were there in your company?

16 A. Our company numbered 21 men at the time.

17 Q. When you say "at that time," which date do you have in mind?

18 A. It was towards the end of September when new soldiers arrived and

19 new companies were set up, so that in our company there were just 21

20 soldiers and we were waiting for replenishment. And I'm speaking about

21 mid-September to the time when I left for Vukovar.

22 Q. September, but which year?

23 A. 1991.

24 Q. Thank you. You have just said that you went to Vukovar. When

25 did you go to Vukovar?

Page 4671

1 A. I entered Vukovar exactly on the 1st of October, in the early

2 morning hours, between 3 and 4 a.m.

3 Q. Who was with you when you entered Vukovar?

4 A. Well, the people from my company, and there was a local guide.

5 Q. Why were you sent to Vukovar?

6 A. Our primary task was to replace our men from the brigade who were

7 already -- who had already spent time in Vukovar and of course to join up

8 in the defence of Vukovar.

9 Q. What kind of arms did you have with you when you entered Vukovar?

10 A. Well, we had infantry weapons which meant sidearms, pistols,

11 hand-grenades, and mortars --

12 THE INTERPRETER: rocket launchers, interpreter's correction;

13 rocket launchers.

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Before arriving in Vukovar, what sort of information did you have

16 about the situation in the town?

17 A. Well, briefly we knew that the situation was very difficult, and

18 that the town was surrounded, it was under siege, and that it was being

19 attacked by large forces, enemy forces.

20 Q. When you referred to the enemy, could you be more precise and say

21 who the enemy was exactly, as far as you knew at the time?

22 A. Our adversary or the enemy was the Yugoslav People's Army, the

23 territorial Serb defence, so-called, and the Chetnik forces.

24 Q. At the time did you know which group, organisation, the Chetniks

25 were affiliated with?

Page 4672

1 A. I have to admit that the question isn't clear. We knew the

2 Chetnik forces as the Chetnik forces, and we knew that they fought

3 together with the Yugoslav People's Army and the Territorial Defence, so

4 I'm not quite sure what you mean.

5 Q. I'll reformulate that. If you don't understand a question,

6 please say so.

7 Do you know whether the Chetnik forces were part of a political

8 group, for example?

9 A. Well, all right, that's nothing new. It was common knowledge

10 that the Chetnik forces belonged to the Serbian Radical Party. That was

11 common knowledge.

12 Q. You have said that your first post was in the silo. Where was

13 that located in Vukovar?

14 A. Well, the silo was along the Danube River, opposite a settlement

15 called Luzac. We can put it this way: It divided Borovo Naselje from

16 the rest of the town of the Vukovar, from the central part.

17 Q. You said earlier on that you entered about 4.00 in the morning,

18 if I remember correctly, and you had a guide. Which route did you follow

19 to enter the town?

20 A. I remember that it was the so-called circular road. We went

21 through fields. I can't remember the exact route that we took, but it

22 was through maize fields.

23 Q. When you entered the town, what was the situation in military

24 terms? What did you yourself see in that respect?

25 A. When I entered the town and after a day or two, it was quite a

Page 4673

1 shock for me with what we saw, that the military was very difficult. It

2 was generally a very difficult situation.

3 Q. The position of the silo, what exactly was your mission with

4 respect to that silo? What were you supposed to do there?

5 A. Our task was to secure the Danube so that the enemy could not

6 reach us from the Serb side. Our second task was to use the silo as an

7 observation point. And our third task was actually to use it as a base,

8 because we went from the silo as an intervention group, carrying out

9 other assignments in town.

10 Q. Until what date did you stay in that silo?

11 A. To the best of my recollection it was until the 22nd of October.

12 Q. And after the 22nd of October where were you deployed? Excuse

13 me, the 22nd of October, what year?

14 A. 1991.

15 Q. Thank you. And after that date, where were you deployed?

16 A. We were deployed to positions in the area of the Prvomajska

17 Street.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I should now like to show Exhibit

19 65 ter 4127. 4127, please. Thank you.

20 Q. Sir, in general terms what does this map show us?

21 A. It shows the town of Vukovar, and I think this is the position

22 where we were deployed in Prvomajska Street. Of course that is a rough

23 indication. I may be a bit -- it may be an approximation.

24 Q. Thank you. If I understand you well, you made the markings on

25 this map.

Page 4674

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what does "A" indicate?

3 A. "A" indicates the rough position of the silo and "B" is the area

4 of the Prvomajska Street.

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I should like to have this

6 admitted in evidence, please.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

8 number for this exhibit?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P272.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, I'm sorry. I must take issue

11 again with the fact that you bring premarked documents before this

12 Tribunal. I don't think it is a safe way of conduct, and if you want to

13 have the witness mark the exhibits that you're showing to the Court, you

14 should have him do it in court.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I will not do that in the future,

16 Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Karlovic, what was the combat activity in the Prvomajska

18 Street? What happened there?

19 A. The Prvomajska Street was the area where we engaged in pure

20 infantry battle, very close-up struggle, hand to hand.

21 Q. And what exactly were the enemies you were dealing with in this

22 close battle? I understand they generally belonged to the Serb forces,

23 but who exactly were you dealing with in this place?

24 A. In Prvomajska Street the enemy was the Yugoslav People's Army,

25 the Territorial Defence so-called, and the Chetnik forces.

Page 4675

1 Q. Could you describe the clothing worn by the soldiers of the JNA?

2 A. The JNA soldiers were wearing the standard uniforms, grey,

3 olive-green -- or, rather, olive-green uniforms. They had a

4 five-cornered star on it and that would be it.

5 Q. And could you describe the clothing worn by the territorial

6 forces?

7 A. The Territorial Defence was clothed similarly, only they used

8 Serb signs, Serb flags, without the five-cornered star. That would be

9 the difference.

10 Q. And regarding the Chetniks, could you describe what kind of

11 clothing they wore?

12 A. The Chetnik forces wore different uniforms and clothes, ranging

13 from civilian to military, with their traditional caps the sajkaca caps,

14 and they mainly carried a cockade in addition to Serb flags.

15 Q. Could you describe more closely this traditional cap that you

16 have mentioned?

17 A. It is rather difficult to describe. It's called the sajkaca, a

18 traditional cap. They would also wear a kind of fur hat. The sajkaca is

19 similar to the caps worn by the JNA but slightly different. And the

20 subara or the fur cap is similar to those Russians wore. I don't know

21 how else I could describe them.

22 Q. Thank you. In terms of their physical appearance and

23 cleanliness, what was the difference between the Chetniks on the one hand

24 and the regular soldiers regarding shaving, hair, et cetera? Were they

25 the same?

Page 4676

1 A. Well, yes, the Chetniks traditionally wore longer hair, they had

2 beards, and they were easily recognisable. Let me say that they were

3 less orderly than the JNA soldiers.

4 Q. What was the difference between the regular JNA soldiers and the

5 reservist in terms of clothing?

6 A. Well, it's very, very similar, only the reservists were older

7 than the JNA soldiers.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would now like to show document

10 65 ter number 4186. 4186.

11 Q. [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm told there's a problem with

13 the court reporter.

14 Mr. Prosecutor, could you please repeat your question.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Karlovic, to which group does the person on the extreme left

17 belong to, with a helmet on his head?

18 A. This soldier could be a reservist of the JNA, but he could also

19 be a member of the TO. I can't see it too clearly and I can't be more

20 specific. In my view he could belong to either group.

21 Q. And to which group does the person to the extreme right of this

22 photograph belong to, with this black cap on his head?

23 A. Because of the cap he's wearing I would say that he was a member

24 of the Chetnik forces but not necessarily. But in view of the cap I

25 would say that he was a member of the Chetnik forces.

Page 4677

1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to

2 tender this document in evidence, please.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

4 number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P273, Your Honours.

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I should now like to show document

7 under 65 ter 4245. I repeat: 4245.

8 Q. Mr. Karlovic, on this picture there's a person wearing a

9 camouflage uniform to the extreme left. Could you tell us which group or

10 unit this person belongs to?

11 A. In my assessment he might be a member of the TO.

12 Q. What makes you say that?

13 A. Well, it is an assumption of mine. On the basis of the clothing

14 he's wearing, I can see that it is not standard uniform of the JNA. I

15 can't see any insignia, but my assumption would be that he belongs to the

16 TO.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should also like

19 to have this document admitted into evidence.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please?

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P274, Your Honours.

22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Let us know show a very brief

23 video clip under 65 ter 6033.

24 [Videotape played]

25 "REPORTER: Amongst the horror, there's a surreal incongruity of

Page 4678

1 celebration. Extremist Serb militiamen and women posing triumphantly for

2 an end of battle photograph before returning to a morning feast of music

3 and laughter, fuelled by alcohol. The motto on their flag is 'Freedom or

4 Death'."

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would like us to stop there,

6 please.

7 Q. Mr. Karlovic, if you know, do you know where this video was

8 filmed?

9 A. I know it's in Vukovar when the city fell, but I don't know the

10 exact location in Vukovar.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Karlovic, what is this flag? What unit does this

12 flag belong to that we see on the screen?

13 A. In my opinion it belongs to the Chetnik forces.

14 Q. Are you able to tell us what is written, or rather could you

15 describe the flag and tell us what is written there?

16 A. Well, there's no need to describe it in particular. It just says

17 "Freedom or Death." I don't know what else I could say as a description.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would have liked

20 to indicate when exactly we stopped, but there's no chronometre here so

21 I'm unable to give you the exact time. But I think we will all be able

22 to recognise this part of the video clip. So I should like to have it

23 admitted into evidence.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, a number,

25 please.

Page 4679

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P275.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the video, does

3 it continue? We haven't seen --

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, there are a few more seconds.

5 [Videotape played]

6 "REPORTER: What steps do you, as the Serbs, need to take before

7 the war is over?

8 INTERVIEWEE: The war will be over when we have our limits,

9 Karlobag-Karlovac-Ogulin-Virovitica. All place where Serbian people live

10 must be free, you know. We must clean up with the Croatians."

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There it is. Mr. Prosecutor,

12 we need a transcript. Could you tell us where this video comes from, who

13 made it, who is the author?

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It is an abstract of a video

15 called "A Hundred Days in Vukovar," and it was V000-0709. This is just a

16 very small part of this feature. We need this information for the sake

17 of the transcript. But I just wanted to have admitted this very small

18 clip.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But we've already given it a

20 number.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this video obviously

24 has nothing to do with this witness. This video could have been admitted

25 into evidence if we have as a witness the author of the video. Let us

Page 4680

1 see under which circumstances, under what conditions, who took part, et

2 cetera. Is this an editing? Was this prepared for propaganda purposes?

3 All these are questions which have to be answered. Here, the Prosecutor

4 is just showing us a video, asking the witness to describe a few things

5 in his opinion, but it is highly questionable to what extent the witness

6 is capable of doing that. And the document is being admitted into the

7 file. How is that possible? We don't know who made it, when, why, where

8 it was broadcast. We don't know anything.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you wish to

10 respond?

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The witness

12 told us clearly that it was made in Vukovar, and the purpose of showing

13 this video is to get comments from the witness regarding the flag that we

14 see on the screen and he was absolutely capable of doing that. And also

15 if you so wish we can have a picture made from the video with the flag,

16 but that is out of context and it seems to us that a video was more

17 appropriate.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Regarding the

19 objection of Mr. Seselj, he says that we should have brought the author

20 of the video. It is absolutely not necessary if we have no doubt as to

21 the existence of the video. On the other hand, Mr. Seselj can bring, if

22 he wishes so, the author of the video.

23 Secondly, what counts is to have pictures of people who were on

24 the ground and the witness himself was on the ground. He saw these

25 people that opposed him. And the question of the flag prompts me to ask

Page 4681

1 him the following question:

2 Mr. Witness, we saw this flag and you told us that the words

3 written were "Freedom or Death." When you were in Vukovar did you see

4 this flag yourself, with your own eyes? You just saw it on the video.

5 But when you were on the Croatian lines were you able to see this flag

6 from a distance?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never saw that flag while I

8 was fighting in Vukovar.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you never saw

10 the flag when you were engaged in combat in Vukovar, and this is the

11 first time that you have seen the flag, it's the first time you've seen

12 the flag in the video.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was fighting in Vukovar I

14 didn't see that flag, but the flag was one I knew before, even before the

15 war.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you knew the flag even

17 before the war. Under what circumstances were you familiar with the

18 flag?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I saw it on television.

20 While they were showing footage of the Serbian Radical Party, so I would

21 see that flag at rallies and I knew that was the emblem of the Chetnik

22 detachments.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. A minute ago

24 you said that -- I didn't intervene then but now I must. A minute ago

25 you said the following: You made a link between this flag and the

Page 4682

1 Serbian Radical Party. That's line 12, page 23 of the transcript. On

2 what basis do you make such a claim?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I make the connection this

4 way: With the Chetnik detachments and the party, I make that connection

5 because the Chetnik detachments were mobilised and recruited through the

6 Serbian Radical Party. I don't know whether I've made myself clear. Is

7 that sufficient?

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How did you know all of this?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard this information from

10 television, and as far as I'm concerned that's enough. I learnt it from

11 the media in fact.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Everything that you have said

14 is based on information that you obtained through the television?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said lastly.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Yes, Mr. Seselj.

18 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have two questions.

19 Sir, you told the Prosecution that this video was allegedly shot

20 in Vukovar, but you didn't know exactly where it was shot in Vukovar. So

21 how is it that you know that this video was made in Vukovar when Vukovar

22 was being liberated? Could you provide us with some information, some

23 more precise references to the video?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: I can't say

25 anything specific. I simply know that it's Vukovar and that's it. I

Page 4683

1 don't know what else I can tell you.

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] How do you know it's Vukovar?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you more than I've

4 already said. Quite simply, I do know.

5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So you can't refer to any facts

6 that would justify this claim according to which it's Vukovar. I'm not

7 talking about opinions, I'm just talking about facts now.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you show me the footage

9 again, the clip again, please, so that I can see it once more.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we'll do that.

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] That's what I was going to

12 suggest. Yes, we'll play it again.

13 [Videotape played]

14 "REPORTER: And amongst the horror there is a surreal incongruity

15 of celebration. Extremist Serb militiamen and women posing triumphantly

16 for an end-of-battle photograph before returning to a morning feast of

17 music and laughter, fuelled by alcohol. The motto on their flag is

18 'Freedom or Death,' and they vow they will fight on.

19 INTERVIEWEE: No, it's not finished.

20 REPORTER: What steps do you, as the Serbs, need to take before

21 the war is over?

22 INTERVIEWEE: The war will be over when we have our limits,

23 Karlobag-Karlovac-Ogulin-Virovitica. All place where Serbian people live

24 must be free, you know. We must clean up with the Croatians."

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as that clip is concerned, I

Page 4684

1 can't say anything specific and tell you how I recognise that what we've

2 seen is Vukovar. But quite simply, I don't think there was that much

3 destruction anywhere else of a town than you will find here, and I know

4 quite simply that it's Vukovar. We all know that it's Vukovar, if you

5 ask me. I apologise for saying that but that's it.

6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And I have another question.

7 When commenting on the video and when answering a question put to you by

8 the Presiding Judge, you said that you associated some of the images and

9 some of the persons with Chetniks and then you said that the Chetniks

10 were volunteers in the Serbian Radical Party.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Lattanzi, please.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think that's the case.

13 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So all those whom you called

14 Chetniks at the time were -- rather, I apologise. The Chetniks in the

15 field in Vukovar were volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, or were

16 there also Chetniks whom you did not consider as volunteers of the

17 Serbian Radical Party?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: As far as

19 I'm concerned the Chetniks were strictly volunteers of the Serbian

20 Radical Party. Strictly speaking, that's it as far as I'm concerned.

21 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, but is that an opinion or a

22 fact?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a fact.

24 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] And what do you base this claim

25 on?

Page 4685

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can base this claim on the

2 following: Well, last night I saw some previous footage, previous clips,

3 and I link up the Chetniks everywhere there with the Serbian Radical

4 Party.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the

8 Prosecution is putting the witness in an impossible situation. He is a

9 crime-base witness and in my opinion he would have to testify about what

10 happened to him or about particular knowledge as to what happened to some

11 other people that he was in contact with or that he knew about and not to

12 be placed in the role of an expert and then explain what the flag was

13 like, what this was like and what that was like. And the witness himself

14 said that he didn't see the flag in Vukovar but saw it on television.

15 Now, you had an expert witness here, a Prosecution military

16 expert. That was the proper person to ask things like that and clarify

17 things like that, not this witness. This witness was a victim. He's a

18 crime-base witness testifying about crime-base matters and that's the

19 only thing he can testify about, not what he saw on television before

20 what happened to him or after the things that happened to him.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but, Mr. Seselj, the

22 Prosecution has the burden of proof and when in such framework the

23 Prosecution does what it wants to do. If it believes that it should

24 focus on the flag rather than on certain other elements, well, that's a

25 choice it makes. When you conduct your cross-examination you can try and

Page 4686

1 abolish the Prosecution thesis.

2 For the moment they're doing their work, the Prosecution is doing

3 its work. Allow them to complete their work and then in the end the

4 Judges will assess the situation and decide whether the Prosecution has

5 demonstrated that there is evidence that shows that these people belonged

6 to the Serbian Radical Party, and that's what the witness seems to be

7 suggesting. But at the moment we're still at the beginning of the

8 examination-in-chief.

9 Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Karlovic, while fighting was ongoing in the town of Vukovar,

12 did you notice any propaganda carried out by the enemy, visual

13 propaganda, audio propaganda? Did you witness any such events, or not?

14 A. Well, the only thing that I heard in those last days in the area

15 of Prvomajska Street was the call to surrender, and I would say that the

16 voice I heard was exactly the same as the voice of Mr. Seselj. It was a

17 tape I think because they kept repeating -- the same thing was repeated

18 over and over again, this call to surrender.

19 Q. And can you remember what was said exactly?

20 A. Well, I won't be able to remember exactly what was said, but I

21 can give you a rough gist of it, what it sounded like, what the sense of

22 it was. It was along these lines: "Ustashas surrender. There's no need

23 to lay down your lives anymore," that kind of context, that we should

24 surrender and that there was no need for us to be killed anymore, that

25 everything was finished with the town and so on.

Page 4687

1 Q. As far as the dates are concerned what could you tell us when

2 this occurred? At least give us an indication.

3 A. Well, to be quite frank, I find it difficult to remember dates

4 and mention dates in this context, but I could give you an overall period

5 of time when I think this could have happened, and that is sometime from

6 October, November, 10th, 15th. It was several days.

7 Q. Which year?

8 A. 1991.

9 Q. Thank you. What was the situation in mid-November in Vukovar?

10 A. Well, it's like this: A couple of days before the fall, before

11 total chaos broke out, we could see that the town had almost fallen and

12 everybody was looking for some sort of protection, shelter, security,

13 safety. It was a time of total chaos.

14 Q. When the town fell what did you do, you personally?

15 A. Well, during the time that the town fell, during those last days,

16 we mostly took part in fighting and withdrawing towards the centre of

17 town.

18 Q. And once the combat had ceased where did you go?

19 A. When the fighting ceased I went to the hospital.

20 Q. Why did you go to the hospital?

21 A. Well, I went to the hospital actually to hand myself over, as I

22 knew that there was going to be a surrender and there were some of my

23 colleagues who had been wounded who were in the hospital at the time. I

24 was lightly wounded myself. But the main reason was that I thought I

25 would be safest in the hospital.

Page 4688

1 Q. And why did you not choose to surrender at your combat post? Why

2 did you go to the hospital? Why go there?

3 A. Well, I've already said. I thought I'd be safest in the hospital

4 because I just couldn't imagine myself giving myself up in the streets

5 where we fought head to head. So I was afraid of giving myself up in the

6 streets.

7 Q. Why were you afraid?

8 A. Well, I was afraid that they'd kill me.

9 Q. Can you remember, at least approximately, the date that you

10 arrived in the hospital?

11 A. In my opinion that was the 17th, the 17th of November, 1991.

12 Q. Thank you for that precise date. On the day that you

13 surrendered, well, what date was that when you surrendered in the

14 hospital?

15 A. I officially came under the authority of the enemy forces on the

16 20th of November, in the morning hours, sometime around 9.00 in the

17 morning, in 1991.

18 Q. When you arrived there on the 17th of November, 1991, when you

19 arrived in the hospital, were you wearing a uniform and were you armed?

20 A. I did not go into the hospital wearing a uniform, neither was I

21 bearing arms, which means I had neither.

22 Q. What was the position of the hospital staff with regard to the

23 presence of arms and uniforms in the hospital?

24 A. Generally speaking, the staff was of the opinion that you don't

25 enter a hospital wearing uniforms, and especially not bearing weapons.

Page 4689

1 Q. Did you know why this was their position?

2 A. Well, for security issues, because an enemy army entering a

3 hospital -- well, not to be provoked in any way, that would be the main

4 reason. They didn't want to turn the hospital into a military base or

5 military institution of any kind.

6 Q. Did you see anyone in uniform bearing arms who had gone to the

7 hospital during the period you were there, from the 17th to the 20th?

8 A. If we're talking about our side, our people, no, I did not see

9 any.

10 Q. That was what I had in mind. What was the situation in the

11 hospital itself? Could you describe the situation for us during the two

12 or three days that you spent there?

13 A. Well, it was like this: Let me repeat the word again. Chaos.

14 The situation was in total chaos. There were a lot of people who had, if

15 I can use the word, flowed into the hospital, everybody looking for

16 accommodation there in view of the fact that the enemy forces were

17 advancing through town. So there were a lot of people, great crowds,

18 fear, panic, and many, many people in the hospital itself.

19 Q. When you say there were many people there, can you be more

20 precise? Were there women, men?

21 A. Well, it's like this: In the hospital there were old people,

22 young people, women, men, children, everyone. A large portion of the

23 Vukovar population who had stayed in town during that time were to be

24 found in the hospital then.

25 Q. Did you know the names of some of the people who were in the

Page 4690

1 hospital; and if so, could you give us their names?

2 A. Well, of the names I remember a few, some people from my own unit

3 who were wounded. For example, Zeljko Major, Robert Lengel,























Page 4691

1 Josip -- Lengel, Robert, and Josip Nemec, Andreas Lehpamer. Lehpamer is

2 the name. Goran Delic, and he was known as Harlan von Bassinger. Harlan

3 von Bassinger was that last name. Those are the names that I can

4 remember at present.

5 Q. You said that in the morning, at 9.00, on the 20th of November,

6 you surrendered. What happened? Could you describe what happened for

7 us?

8 A. Well, at 9.00 we received an order to advance towards the main

9 entrance or exit -- well, what was the main exit at the time of the

10 hospital, so that's how it started. We went towards the exit, the

11 hospital exit, and we were divided up there.

12 Q. You received an order. Who gave the order?

13 A. Well, the order came from the army, the soldiers that had

14 surrounded us and taken us captive.

15 Q. Could you be more precise? Was it the regular army or other

16 paramilitary groups? Who issued the order?

17 A. Well, it was like this: The hospital staff conveyed the

18 information to us, but in view of the -- in view of who was doing all

19 this around the hospital, I'm sure that the order came from the Yugoslav

20 People's Army.

21 Q. Thank you. Who did the order concern exactly? What kind of

22 people or what category of people was concerned? Everyone or certain

23 people in the hospital?

24 A. Well, I remember that it applied to everyone who was able to walk

25 and lightly wounded, that they should move towards that hospital exit.

Page 4692

1 Q. Once you had gone out of the hospital what happened? Could you

2 describe that for us?

3 A. At the exit we were divided up and told which direction we were

4 supposed to move in, and the group of people that I was in was divided up

5 into two sections. Well, that would be it. So we were separated into

6 two sections and we were at the hospital exit.

7 Q. And once you had been divided into two groups in front of the

8 entrance to the hospital, what was done?

9 A. Well, we were searched, first of all, by the JNA. They searched

10 everyone in those two columns, and after they'd searched us we were taken

11 to buses which were standing outside in the road.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when you say it was

13 the JNA, well, we understand that there were two groups and that the

14 people in both groups were searched. You say the JNA did this. So that

15 means that they were soldiers who were part of the JNA, who were under

16 JNA command. They must have been JNA officers. Is that what you're

17 saying?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that's it.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are certain

20 about this, because what you're saying is very important.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quite certain.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Q. While you were being searched, how did the JNA soldiers who were

25 searching you behave?

Page 4693

1 A. It was like this: There was no physical abuse at that time.

2 There was verbal abuse and a lot of swearing, but I did not actually see

3 that anybody was being beaten or hit. Of course I couldn't see the

4 entire column.

5 Q. What was the swearing or abuse like? Can you remember that?

6 A. Well, the classical type of swearing that we use in our parts,

7 telling you to go somewhere and mentioning Ustasha mothers and sending

8 you off to places. Nothing special.

9 Q. While you were being searched, did you see anyone who was in

10 charge of the JNA soldiers who were searching you? Did you notice anyone

11 giving these soldiers orders, telling them what to do?

12 A. Well, everybody knew what was to be done there and in what order.

13 And I already mentioned during my testimony in the Sljivancanin, Mrksic,

14 and Radic trial that at one point I saw Mr. Sljivancanin. For a

15 relatively brief period of time, but I did see him nonetheless.

16 Q. Thank you. Apart from the JNA soldiers did you notice

17 individuals who belonged to other units while you were outside the

18 hospital and when you were being searched?

19 A. Within the hospital compound I can't remember there being anybody

20 except members of the JNA. But outside the hospital compound, beyond the

21 fence, there were other forces, too, and I can tell you straight away

22 what I call the Territorial Defence and Chetnik forces is who was there.

23 Q. Do you remember what they did, how they behaved?

24 A. All I can remember is that they were standing outside in the

25 street, beyond the barracks compound or, rather, hospital compound --

Page 4694

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'll go back a few

2 seconds. You said that you saw Sljivancanin there. Did you know this

3 person? How did you know his name? What allows you to claim that when

4 you were there in the hospital you saw Mr. Sljivancanin?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, last time I testified during

6 the Sljivancanin trial -- well, at the time I didn't know it was

7 Mr. Sljivancanin, but later on when I saw his name and what he looks

8 like, what the man looks like, I realised that that was the same man. At

9 that point in time I didn't know that that person was Mr. Sljivancanin.

10 I didn't know him by name.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this person whom

12 you had seen on television, and you certainly saw him in the courtroom

13 when you testified, he was the same person who was in the hospital; is

14 that correct?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him in front of the hospital,

16 and that was the man, yes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he was there in front

18 of the hospital, did you have the impression that he was in command of

19 the entire operation? Were you certain of this fact?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I saw him in a situation when

21 he was calling to someone who was a lieutenant and said that he should go

22 a little faster, that he was too slow. So I realised by that that he was

23 the superior to this lieutenant because I don't assume anybody of a

24 lesser rank would be shouting at a lieutenant otherwise.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When one asks questions, what

Page 4695

1 is good is that one receives answers that one wasn't expecting. You say

2 that he issued an order to a lieutenant. How do you know he was a

3 lieutenant? Did he have any insignia on him? Because usually when we

4 see uniforms it's difficult to distinguish ranks or insignia that

5 indicate ranks. Is there anything that allowed you to conclude that he

6 was a lieutenant?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Sljivancanin called out to him,

8 "Lieutenant, lieutenant, why are you moving so slowly? Faster, faster."

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You heard him say

10 "Lieutenant, lieutenant," and then you concluded that the person

11 addressed in this manner was a lieutenant. Very well.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have two or three

13 questions that I would still like to put to the witness and then we could

14 have a break.

15 Q. Mr. Karlovic, you mentioned buses. How many buses were there?

16 A. To the best of my recollection, there were five buses.

17 Q. You were separated into two groups; that's what you said. Were

18 the two groups taken into the buses or just one of the two groups?

19 A. Both those two columns of people standing there were taken into

20 those buses.

21 Q. And which bus were you in yourself?

22 A. I was in the one-but-last bus. If I counted properly, that would

23 make it the fourth bus.

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we could stop

25 there, if it's an appropriate time. Could I just be informed of the

Page 4696

1 amount of time I still have at my disposal?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Could Mr. Registrar tell

3 us how much time the Prosecution has used so far and we will then make

4 our calculations, if possible immediately. You have used up 53 minutes,

5 so you can calculate how much time remains.

6 We'll have a 20-minute break now.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 --- Recess taken at 9.57 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.19 a.m.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will now resume,

11 and I will give the floor to Mr. Seselj who has administrative issues he

12 would like to address.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President and Judges, the first

15 matter that I'd like to raise is this: It is of an administrative nature

16 and has to do with a document disclosed to me by the Prosecutor, the

17 number of which is 237, of the 4th of March this year. They are notes by

18 an inspector, Prosecution inspector, about telephone conversations he

19 conducted with Petar Vujaklija and Ivica Kopic, and all this relates to

20 the testimony of Goran Stoparic. And you will remember that I challenged

21 vigorously the testimony of Stoparic, Goran, with respect to his

22 testimony of events in Vojvodina.

23 And now the Prosecutor, via their investigator, Paolo

24 Pastore-Stocchi, I'm not well-versed in Italian pronunciations, so it's

25 either Stocchi or Stocchi, anyway they checked out some of my assertions

Page 4697

1 documented by Defence witness statements, and he found the following:

2 That the exchange of property between a Serb Vujaklija and a Croat Kopic

3 was done in 1995, was conducted in 1995, and that these two men are on

4 good terms to this day and that they met up last summer. Vujaklija

5 confirmed that he gave the bill of sales to his property to my associates

6 and team, Defence team.

7 Now, on the 22nd of January, 2008, Investigator Stocchi talked to

8 Ivica Kopic, a Croat from Gabarac [phoen] who exchanged his house with a

9 Serb and went to live in Slavonia, and this is the interesting part. He

10 stated that in his yard a hand-grenade was not thrown in his yard because

11 witness Stoparic claimed that a hand-grenade was thrown Kopic's yard.

12 Furthermore, Kopic states that he was on good terms with Stoparic until

13 he heard that he Stoparic had in fact taken part in some form of violence

14 or abuse of Croats in the area. And Kopic stated that Serb extremists

15 never came to his house with the intention of trying to persuade him to

16 leave, and you will recall that Stoparic claimed here that members of the

17 Serbian Radical Party came to visit Kopic and tried to persuade him to

18 move out.

19 Therefore, the Prosecution here did a partially good job. It

20 didn't investigate the whole matter, but it did enough to come to the

21 conclusion that Witness Goran Stoparic lied in court.

22 Now, this paper must have some repercussions. It must be acted

23 upon. I think it is now the duty of the Prosecution to request of the

24 Trial Chamber to take legal proceedings for false testimony, because

25 never in this courtroom, although there was a lot of false testimony in

Page 4698

1 the various trials, legal proceedings were not taken against any false

2 witness. Now the Prosecution has concrete proof and evidence, and I

3 demand that the Trial Chamber issues an order for such proceedings to be

4 set into motion.

5 The other matter is this: You will remember that here in court I

6 presented a letter by Goran Stoparic to one of his friends. You did not

7 allow the letter to be read out. You did not allow me to examine

8 Stoparic based on the letter, but you confiscated the letter, you took it

9 away from me. Now, enough time has gone by and the authenticity of the

10 handwriting could have been tested. The Prosecution has all manner of

11 resources to do that, but they haven't done that yet.

12 And I consider that these are two very serious matters and that

13 you as the Trial Chamber must get involved. You have now received from

14 the Prosecution proof and evidence that the witness did in fact lie on

15 purpose, tendentiously, probably pursuant to instructions from somebody,

16 and now this witness will either have to tell us who told him to falsely

17 testify or must bear the consequences according to the Rules of Procedure

18 and Evidence. And you know that false testimony is a lack of respect for

19 the Court and that serious sanctions are taken for perjury. So that is

20 the first administrative matter that I wish to raise.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

23 Honours.

24 First of all, the Prosecution clearly takes issue with assertions

25 of Mr. Seselj -- Dr. Seselj that Witness Goran Stoparic has lied. We

Page 4699

1 simply made some inquiries based on the witness' testimony and disclosed

2 to the accused what might be considered an investigator's note or a

3 proofing note. That is certainly -- has been disclosed to him pursuant

4 to Rule 68. These are clearly matters that the accused can raise once we

5 get to the defence phase of the case. But for him to stand up here and

6 to assert that this witness has lied based on a Rule 68 investigator's

7 note that's disclosed to him, first of all, we would submit this is not

8 the right time to be doing that, and second of all it's inappropriate for

9 him to be implying that this witness lied and to be suggesting that he

10 should be investigated and/or prosecuted for contempt.

11 Third of all, this is with all due respect not some kind of minor

12 administrative matter that needs to be raised at this point in time.

13 We're clearly, all of us, operating under time constraints and time

14 pressures, and we would respectfully suggest that we move forward and

15 complete the evidence of the current witness who's being held.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Regarding this issue, the

17 Chamber will discuss it. But if I understand things well, the

18 Prosecution, through its investigator, has communicated to Mr. Seselj

19 matters regarding Mr. Kopic, and on that basis Mr. Seselj draws

20 conclusions to the effect that Witness Stoparic had lied when testifying.

21 And Mr. Seselj is asking us or, rather, asking the Prosecution to

22 institute a proceeding of contempt of court. That is the first point.

23 Secondly, during the appearance of Mr. Stoparic, the accused

24 Seselj produced a document which, according to Mr. Seselj, establishes

25 the fact that Stoparic wrote to another individual and Stoparic denied

Page 4700

1 this. And Mr. Seselj is asking the Chamber to order a handwriting

2 investigation to establish whether the handwriting is indeed of

3 Mr. Stoparic, and when he denied the authenticity of this document, he

4 lied once again.

5 So these are two points on which the Chamber will deliberate.

6 But to wind up, Mr. Seselj, what else do you have to say?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second problem or issue,

8 administrative issue, that I would like to raise is this: It is the

9 introduction of a new category into the legal proceedings conducted here

10 of the so-called consolidated statement. I've never heard of anything

11 like that before, a consolidated statement by the witness. Now,

12 witnesses give statements to the Prosecution; sometimes they give several

13 statements. Then those statements are provided to the accused and the

14 witnesses testify on the basis of those statements.

15 Now, in this Tribunal, sometimes under 92 ter, those statements

16 can be admitted into evidence. Now the Prosecution, for several

17 statements made by a witness who testified on several occasions, prior to

18 the proceedings, makes a consolidated statement, and you must have

19 noticed, Judges, that in that consolidated statement we have a segment

20 that does not exist in any previous statement or in any previous

21 testimony by this witness. Suddenly the witness mentions me and

22 allegedly that my voice was recorded, was on tape, when I called for the

23 Croat paramilitary forces to surrender in Vukovar over the loudspeaker.

24 That has never appeared before this consolidated statement that appeared

25 two or three days ago.

Page 4701

1 This consolidated statement represents a two-faced action, and it

2 is rather ludicrous. Does that mean that the previous statements were

3 not solid so that this is a "con-solidated" one? Does it mean that two

4 truths exist, the first solid statement and the second supplemented,

5 consolidated statement? Especially as I have three documents here before

6 me to the effect that the Croatian authorities prepared officially, of

7 course secretly and confidentially, Croat witnesses to appear before this

8 Tribunal as Prosecution witnesses, including this one Vilim Karlovic who

9 is here now, and it provided me with all three documents. The

10 Prosecution produced this to me because sometimes they disclose something

11 they hadn't planned to disclose to me. It is in the set of documents

12 that they prepared to send to me. And I consider that these so-called

13 consolidated statements are inadmissible, and especially not supplements

14 to those statements once the witness is placed in a new position, has a

15 new function. He is now here at this particular trial, and they needed

16 to slip in something that he never said previously, and that's what

17 they've done precisely on this occasion.

18 So that is the procedural issue that I wanted to draw your

19 attention to you without the presence of the witness, of course, because

20 I don't think it has anything to do with the witness and it's not his

21 problem. It's a Prosecution problem that the Prosecution has to deal

22 with with respect to his conduct.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution will respond,

24 but I shall try to summarise the problem first.

25 This witness, Karlovic, has already testified in several other

Page 4702

1 cases and he had to make written statements in those cases, which, under

2 92 ter, could have been admitted into evidence under that rule.

3 Before the Chamber ruled that it should be viva voce on the 5th

4 of March, 2008, there was a new statement, consolidated if you wish,

5 which was drawn up after the meeting of -- between this witness and the

6 investigators of the OTP. And apparently in this statement a new element

7 appears which is not negligible and which can have some importance,

8 according to which Mr. Seselj encouraged the Croats to surrender and the

9 witness says that he heard the voice of Mr. Seselj. This is not neutral.

10 Why does this element appear now, and why did it not appear

11 previously? Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Your Honours, let me briefly explain how these consolidated

14 statements are prepared.

15 What the Prosecution does in order to make the statements more

16 acceptable or in a format that's easier to use in terms of Rule 92 ter is

17 precisely as set forth by the Presiding Judge. We take the prior written

18 and signed statements of the witness and the testimony, the transcripts

19 of any prior testimony of the witness and attempt to consolidate that.

20 Those statements are then focused in terms of putting in only those

21 elements which are relevant to this case. The statements are then

22 translated into the language of the witness and missions are then sent

23 down where an investigator and a lawyer then sit down with the witness

24 who is able to review the statement in his or her own language, rather

25 than using the read-back procedure that was done with the earlier

Page 4703

1 statements that were taken in English or French.

2 At that point in time it is possible that clarification questions

3 are put to witnesses in order to clarify the consolidated statement. It

4 is entirely possible that within the scope of that follow-up interview,

5 in order to sign the statement in the witness' language, that additional

6 information is provided by the witness. It is also possible in some

7 instances that additional questions might be put to the witness that

8 relate specifically to this case. The prior statements might have

9 related to other investigations, the prior cases might have related to

10 other accused, and the simple fact of the matter is, given the length of

11 time that many of these investigations and cases have taken, that

12 questions are first put to the witness or additional information is

13 provided by the witness at the time the consolidated statement is being

14 reviewed by the witness in his or her on language. And that clearly

15 explains what might be considered new information suddenly appears in the

16 statements.

17 Now, this is a ripe topic that would be completely suitable for

18 cross-examination. The accused in this case has been provided with all

19 of the additional -- the previous statements, all of the prior

20 transcripts, and it's simply a question of putting questions to the

21 witness on cross-examination as to why this appeared now "but you never

22 said that before." These are topics that can be covered in

23 cross-examination, and again I would implore the Trial Chamber to reduce

24 the amount of time we spend on these so-called administrative matters,

25 because what they're doing is slowing down the pace of this trial. We

Page 4704

1 only sit three days a week. We've got a limited amount of time available

2 to us. We are trying to move as expeditiously as possible, and to be

3 quite frank, many of these interventions by the accused are not

4 particularly helpful in terms of moving this case along.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis has responded to the

6 problems raised. It was at the request of the Chamber who noted that

7 witnesses had testified in several witnesses and they have several

8 written statements, and it would be -- it appeared that there was a

9 consolidated statement summarising what he said but from the standpoint

10 of the current case, which means that perhaps other cases were of lesser

11 interest for this case. So it can happen that at this stage the witness

12 may add something and that is what apparently happened regarding him

13 hearing the voice of Mr. Seselj, and that is why it appears in paragraph

14 19 of this written statement. We are going to ask him whether he himself

15 said this or whether it was upon the incitement of the investigators of

16 the OTP.

17 Mr. Seselj, you have received complete answers to your questions.

18 Now, we are going to continue by bringing in the witness, and as soon as

19 he is here --

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have something else to say.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand why you're

23 moving on from this very inadequate explanation by the Prosecution, but

24 that's your affair, because if we're talking about a consolidated

25 statement, it's compiled on the basis of all previous statements and

Page 4705

1 testimony and this is a consolidated statement that contains something

2 quite new, a new element in it. And I think that is untenable because

3 that witness was interviewed with respect to this trial a long time ago

4 and I was provided with the statement more than a year ago. I don't know

5 exactly when. And that portion wasn't in it. And then prior to

6 testimony this new matter is included.

7 Now, the third matter that I wanted to raise, and I know that

8 I've tired you with it, but I do wish to state that last night I received

9 a letter from the Registrar, or rather --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but first, before you

11 address this last point, I wish to respond immediately. Mr. Mundis

12 explained to you that all the statements, previous statements, were

13 disclosed to you, and that during the cross-examination if you find that

14 there are differences and contradictions, then during the

15 cross-examination you may say so. You may say so the witness, Look, in

16 statement number 1 of such and such a date, you said this, and then in

17 the consolidated statement you say that and this to me seems to be a

18 contradiction. Can you explain it. That is what Mr. Mundis has said.

19 And you will be fully protected.

20 And now your last point?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that sense, Mr. President,

22 it is possible for the Prosecution to provide us with a new statement by

23 this witness with new matters inside it just today, so another

24 consolidated statement. So I don't seem to have understood this concept

25 of a consolidated same time.

Page 4706

1 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I should simply like

2 to ask you, during the preparations for this trial it is not frequent

3 that the witness can change something or add something to his preliminary

4 statements. I don't see the difference in relation to this particular

5 procedure. It is quite possible for something to be added to the

6 consolidated statement.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how you can call

8 that statement a consolidated statement, then, because according to the

9 previous explanation, a consolidated statement is compiled based on all

10 previous statements and previous testimony. Then it's not a consolidated

11 statement, then it's a completely new statement. Why should it be

12 consolidated? What's being consolidated there? But I allow for the fact

13 that perhaps I haven't understood it, so I won't take up more time with

14 this.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Next point.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, the third question that I have

17 tired you with quite a few times previously, but I promise you that I

18 won't raise it again, but it has to do with finance. Yesterday I

19 received a final letter from the Registrar concerning this issue, it was

20 signed by Martin Petrov, the Head for Legal Assistance and Questions of

21 Detention, it is dated the 4th of March, in which there are a few points

22 I would like to quote and read out and that's where I'm going to end.

23 Martin Petrov said that your ruling of the 30th of June, 2007, when you

24 were the Pre-Trial Judge, that in it you made the conclusion that perhaps

25 I do have the right for financial assistance by the International

Page 4707

1 Tribunal for preparing my defence. And then three conditions are laid

2 down which they say I have not fulfilled, whereas I have. I have proven

3 that I'm indigent, that I can't meet the costs of my defence, and I

4 appointed Slavko Jerkovic, as somebody who can be in charge of that

5 question; although, he is not the main legal advisor who is Mr. Zoran

6 Gazic, and you confirmed that. Next they say that legal assistance can

7 be paid out in conformity with the rules and regulations, and they say

8 that it is impossible to receive monies retroactively for the four years

9 and several months until your ruling was made, and that the Registry is

10 not bound to do so, that the situation is quite the contrary. And Martin

11 Petrov goes on to say, I wish to mention that you never asked permission

12 from the Registry with respect to any of -- any work concerning your

13 so-called expert team, whereas for four years I struggled to have

14 contacts with members of my expert team to be enabled to come and visit

15 me, because for four years I wasn't allowed any visitors ever during that

16 period of time, except once when I was represented with a chamber of the

17 Netherlands in the Van der Spoel trial.

18 Now, it appears that everything I do, expert opinions, reports,

19 or whatever, I have to ask the Registry's agreement that that be done,

20 although they did not recognise my legal advisors or didn't allow them to

21 visit me or me to have telephone communication with them.

22 Furthermore, the Registrar goes on to say that I did not want to

23 supply them with information as to my family's property, and I don't wish

24 to do so. I will never supply that information and I'm not duty-bound by

25 any rules to do so. And he rejects providing information as to how much

Page 4708

1 other defence cases cost and stand-by counsel and permanent counsel in my

2 trial. They say that the sums were paid -- that the sums paid out to

3 others in other trials are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, and they

4 refer to an Appeals Chamber decision in the Krajisnik trial, according to

5 which the resources allegedly who are paid to the accused who represent

6 themselves could not be comparable to those paid out to the Defence

7 counsel and accused who have legal counsel to represent them, and that

8 written matter is something that -- written statements is something that

9 the accused representing themselves should compile themselves. And then

10 they say that the Registry is ready to provide me with the total sum of

11 the remuneration paid out to three Defence counsel that were imposed by

12 the Tribunal but that it cannot and will not state the sums paid out to

13 each individual Defence counsel because the secretary deems that

14 information to be confidential, and it is only the Registry and the

15 Defence counsel receiving those monies who know about it.

16 So that is the final position taken by the Registry, Judges, so

17 I'm not going to insist upon the matter further. You can give thought to

18 the matter and see whether it will be possible for me to present my

19 defence case under those conditions. Before the new year, my legal

20 advisors and other members of my team warned me and said they will not be

21 able to continue working much longer in this trial and help me in my

22 defence unless they are paid, and I have that in writing, I have that

23 caution issued by them in writing. I can bring it into court tomorrow if

24 you're interested in seeing it. But I'm not going to discuss the matter

25 or contact the Registry with respect to that issue until those two --

Page 4709

1 that information is supplied me, how much the other defence cases came

2 to, how much money the Defence counsel received, and how much the

3 individual counsels received from the International Tribunal. That must

4 not be a secret.

5 And I repeat my promise that I'm not going to abuse your patience

6 with financial matters because I have put paid to that issue as far as

7 I'm concerned.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have the letter

9 the Registrar sent to you and we know what you have just said, and we

10 will address this matter. But you have said that as far as you're

11 concerned the subject is closed.

12 Let us bring in the witness now, please. The Prosecution has one

13 hour and 37 or 33 minutes left, I'm not sure. Thirty-seven. That's an

14 error on my part. Perhaps we could complete it today. I'm just going to

15 ask him a question regarding the drafting.

16 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, "about the surrender."

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I said "surrender." It's not

18 the same thing. An error on the part of the interpreter.

19 THE INTERPRETER: I apologise.

20 [The witness takes the stand]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before we give the

22 floor to the Prosecution I have a question to put to you which is very

23 simple: In the written statement that you signed on the 5th of March,

24 2008, in paragraph 19 you say that in Vukovar you heard the voice of

25 Mr. Seselj calling on the Croats to surrender. When you mentioned this

Page 4710

1 did you do so spontaneously yourself or was it the investigators who drew

2 your attention to this particular point? Could you clear this up for us,

3 please?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I heard a voice that

5 was similar to Mr. Seselj's voice. I said that spontaneously during the

6 interview that I remembered this minor point. Well, minor point.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you did not record this

8 detail in the other statements that you made?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, I didn't feel that to be

10 that important at that point in time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 Mr. Prosecutor.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Could you tell us, Witness, how many persons in all were put in

15 the buses? You said that there were five buses.

16 A. Well, I made an estimate myself. If there were five buses, a bus

17 can take 50 to 55 persons, roughly. So that's my calculation. Five

18 times 50 is approximately 250 people.

19 Q. Thank you. In your bus, what was the composition of the people?

20 Were they men, women? Could you tell us that, the composition of the

21 people on your bus?

22 A. They were mostly men, but I remembered later on that together

23 with me in my bus there was a married couple. And apart from us there

24 were two soldiers who were in front of the bus, in the front part of the

25 bus by the front door, and of course the driver.

Page 4711

1 Q. I'll come back to this last part of your answer. Still talking

2 about the composition of the people on your bus, could you tell us

3 whether the people were patients, wounded men, invalids? What was their

4 physical condition?

5 A. Well, in my bus I saw people who had been wounded, and I saw

6 people whom I couldn't say whether something had happened to them or not.

7 But there were wounded people in my bus, too, yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us the proportion of the people who were wounded

9 in the bus?

10 A. After all that passage of time I can try to remember. It was

11 roughly 50/50, half/half. Of course that's not that reliable.

12 Q. Of course I understand. It's an approximation. Did you know

13 certain people by name on your bus?

14 A. Well, in my bus I recognised a member of my own brigade, not

15 company but brigade. His surname was Gruber and I know that he had been

16 wounded. His arm was bandaged. His shoulder, arm, and stomach had been

17 bandaged.

18 Q. Could you give us his first name?

19 A. I think it was Ivan Gruber. I know that Gruber was the surname.

20 It's rather specific, but I think his first name was Ivan. Ivan Gruber.

21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that there were two soldiers on the

22 bus. Could you tell us whether they were JNA soldiers, or did they

23 belong to some other group? Could you be more specific?

24 A. It's like this: I'm certain that one of them belonged to the

25 JNA. He was quite young and dressed as the JNA were dressed. As to the

Page 4712

1 other one, I believe he was a little older and could have belonged to the

2 reserve forces of the JNA.

3 Q. And what was their role in the bus? Why were they there?

4 A. At first I assumed on the basis of what I could see that it was

5 sort of to provide security.

6 Q. Thank you. You were all in the buses. Once you were in the

7 buses what happened? Did you stay there? Did you move?

8 A. For a time we waited in front of the hospital on the street

9 there, and then after about half an hour to 45 minutes the buses started

10 a manoeuvre and started moving. So after about 40 minutes the buses

11 started driving off.

12 Q. Could you tell us approximately what time it was when the buses

13 started moving?

14 A. Well, I would say that from the 9.00 I mentioned in the morning

15 to the time they started moving, not more than -- well, it was not more

16 than half past 10.00 or 11.00. 11.00 at the latest.

17 Q. Thank you. So you started off, as you just explained. Where

18 were the buses going?

19 A. Well, I didn't know this at the time, but sometime later we

20 reached the Vukovar barracks.

21 Q. And how did you know that it was the barracks of Vukovar, the

22 place where the buses drove to?

23 A. Well, I didn't know at the time, although it was quite a specific

24 place. You could notice that it was a military facility anyway. And

25 later on I learnt that it was in fact the Vukovar barracks.

Page 4713

1 Q. When the five buses arrived at the Vukovar barracks, who did you

2 see? Who was present?

3 A. There we came across the JNA soldiers, the territorials,

4 Chetniks, in actual fact all types of the people we were fighting

5 against, the enemy.

6 Q. How many people were there in all? The JNA, the TO, and the

7 Chetniks that you saw there, how many were they?

8 A. Well, I'll try to hazard a guess. It's difficult to say and to

9 give specific figures. There were a lot of them, I'd say. In that yard,

10 in that compound, there might have been some 100 people. But as I say,

11 it's difficult to give you an exact figure.

12 Q. Thank you. Among this hundred or so people, had you seen any of

13 them before?

14 A. At the hospital I saw the same people that came up there to the

15 barracks later on, or several of the same people. We all have to be

16 aware of this fact that while we were driving in the bus we had to keep

17 our heads down, so we couldn't really look around too much. But I did

18 notice the same people at the hospital and at the barracks.

19 Q. And those same people that you noticed at the hospital and at the

20 barracks, were they people belonging to the JNA, to the Chetniks, to the

21 TO? Could you be more specific?

22 A. Well, look, naturally there were JNA members. There were

23 Chetniks too because the Chetniks were with us all the time. They were

24 with the JNA and the Chetniks were behind us in their vehicles all the

25 time. As far as I could see there were members of the Territorial

Page 4714

1 Defence, too. There were Chetnik formations. There was the JNA who had

2 organised and coordinated everything.

3 Q. Thank you. What was the attitude of the Chetniks when you were

4 in the barracks in Vukovar?

5 A. Well, I'll put it in my own words which perhaps won't be very

6 grammatical but it was completely wild, completely savage. One could see

7 that they wanted to take their revenge. There were verbal comments when

8 we were entering the bus. You could see that they really wanted to harm

9 us.

10 Q. You said that they made verbal comments, so can you be more

11 precise? What did they say? Do you remember that?

12 A. Well, look, you had the usual traditional swear-words that were

13 used, the "swear-words" used in our lands. They would usually start with

14 the words "Ustasha." So these were the usual swear-words. They would

15 refer to your mother, to your homeland. They would call you an Ustasha

16 and they would say that they would kill all of us, and so on.

17 Q. What sort of frame of mind were you in in the bus? How did you

18 feel?

19 A. Well, we were afraid. We were afraid.

20 Q. What did the two soldiers who were in your bus do when the

21 Chetniks wanted to enter the bus?

22 A. Well, it's quite clear that they were told not to let anyone in

23 the bus, and they did not let one Chetnik get into the bus. So it seemed

24 at that time that they were protecting us. As far as they are concerned,

25 I can't complain about them behaving incorrectly towards us.

Page 4715

1 Q. Thank you. Did everyone stay on the bus or were there people who

2 were taken off the bus?

3 A. No one was taken off my bus, apart from this married couple. I

4 can't remember whether they were both Serbs or perhaps only the man was a

5 Serb or the wife. But I think that they were well educated. They had a

6 higher education. And as far as I can remember they were taken off the

7 bus in Vukovar barracks.

8 Q. And in the other buses, were you able to see anything in the

9 other buses?

10 A. Well, there was a JNA officer who would go into the buses with

11 lists. He'd call out certain names. None of the names he called out

12 were the names of people in our bus, but we could see that some people

13 were taken off other buses if they were on the list.

14 Q. How many people were taken off the buses?

15 A. Well, I would be able to make an estimate on the basis of what I

16 saw in this military bus that they put these people into. In my opinion

17 there weren't more than about 20 people who were separated, at least in

18 that bus. Naturally I couldn't see whether they took all the people into

19 that bus, or rather, whether they put all the people into that bus, all

20 of the people that had been taken off that bus had been put into the

21 other bus.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know why these people were taken off the

23 buses, what the criteria were for taking them off, what the reasons were?

24 A. I really don't know. I have no idea.

25 Q. What happened to them? Where were these people taken to?

Page 4716

1 A. As far as I can remember, I think that bus was the last one to

2 arrive in Ovcara. I must admit that I'm not quite clear about, whether

3 I'm certain about this, given all the time that has passed. But I have a

4 recollection, a vague recollection, of this bus following us to Ovcara.

5 Q. Thank you very much. How much time did you spend in the Vukovar

6 barracks?

7 A. Well, I would say that we stayed there for two hours at least.

8 Q. And after two hours what happened?

9 A. Well, let's say that this convoy of buses and other vehicles set

10 off along a route that I was not familiar with, and we arrived at this

11 location that we call Ovcara.

12 Q. When you say "convoy," are you referring to the five buses, or

13 did the sixth bus that you mentioned also form part of the convoy?

14 A. As far as I can remember it went to Ovcara with us, that bus went

15 to Ovcara with us, and it was part of the convoy.

16 Q. Very well. How do you know you went to Ovcara? How do you know

17 that the convoy arrived in Ovcara?

18 A. Well, naturally at the time I didn't know that it was Ovcara, but

19 at the time of being liberated from Ovcara and being freed, well, I was

20 one of the local people - I'm from Zagreb - and it was the first time in

21 my life that I was there. But from those people, those locals, I found

22 out that the place was Ovcara, that it was a former farm and that it was

23 Ovcara.

24 Q. What time was it when you arrived in Ovcara, approximately?

25 A. Well, in my opinion it was around 1400 hours, perhaps 1430 hours.

Page 4717

1 Perhaps a little earlier, but it was around 1400 hours.

2 Q. At that time were the two soldiers who were in your bus still in

3 the bus or had they got off the bus?

4 A. They remained in the bus all the time, and when we got off the

5 bus I think they even departed in those buses but I can't claim that for

6 sure now.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you describe the site you arrived at, Ovcara?

8 What did you see, buildings, farms? What did it look like?

9 A. Well, I can remember the building next to which we stopped, where

10 the buses stopped. That's all I can remember. It was a big hangar. It

11 had a large metal door. Perhaps -- it was perhaps 30 or 40 metres long,

12 15 to 20 metres wide.

13 Q. Thank you. How did the buses park in relation to this hangar?

14 A. Well, the buses stopped parallel to the hangar, and the people

15 who got off the buses -- well, the bus would arrive by the -- next to the

16 metal door and that's where the people would get off. So the buses were

17 parallel to the hangar.

18 Q. Thank you. Which bus were you in when you arrived, in the first,

19 second, third, fourth, fifth bus? Which one were you in?

20 A. I was in the fourth bus.

21 Q. When the bus you were in stopped, were you able to see what was

22 happening outside, or was that only possible once you had got off the

23 bus?

24 A. Well, yes, it was possible to see what was happening.

25 Q. And what was happening outside? Could you describe that for us?

Page 4718

1 A. Well, the people who would get off the bus, they passed

2 through -- they ran through a gauntlet in single file, a gauntlet

3 composed of Chetniks. While they ran through this gauntlet the people

4 would leave their personal items, their documents, and they would be

5 beaten. After they had run through the gauntlet they would enter the

6 Ovcara hangar.

7 Q. You mentioned the fact that there were -- that there was a

8 gauntlet formed of Chetniks. The Chetniks who formed this gauntlet --

9 well, apart from the Chetniks who formed the gauntlet, did you notice any

10 other soldiers who were part of any other groups, of the JNA or of the

11 Territorial Defence?

12 A. Look, the JNA was there all the time. They were constantly

13 present. As far as I could see, they were in charge of the entire

14 operation. So there was the JNA, the Chetniks, and the Territorial

15 Defence members; they were always together on the whole.

16 Q. Very well. And with regard to the people who composed the

17 gauntlet, did you recognise any individuals whom you had seen previously?

18 A. Are we talking about my men or about the enemy? What are you

19 asking me about?

20 Q. I am referring to the enemy.

21 A. No, I didn't know any of them. They were practically the same

22 people who had escorted us from the hospital, from the barracks as far as

23 Ovcara. I had known them for two or three hours, but I hadn't previously

24 known any of them.

25 Q. Very well. How many people approximately were there who were

Page 4719

1 beating you in this gauntlet?

2 A. Well, there were about 20 to 25 individuals who composed the

3 gauntlet, not more than that. Also because of the area that this was

4 being done in.

5 Q. And could you tell us a little more about how you were beaten?

6 A. They beat us with their hands, with rifle butts. One person even

7 had chains. They would kick us. They would use anything they could get

8 their hands on to beat us with.

9 Q. How fast did the prisoners run the gauntlet?

10 A. Well, that depends. Some would run through the gauntlet faster;

11 some a little more slow. But it was between 20 to 30 seconds for each

12 man. We ran through the gauntlet fairly rapidly.

13 Q. And while you were being beaten, what did the soldiers who had

14 escorted you in the bus do?

15 A. Well, I'll repeat this: As far as I can remember the soldiers

16 who were in the bus remained in the bus and the buses moved on.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, when the passengers in

18 the buses were maltreated, the soldiers who were in the bus were no

19 longer there; they had left with the buses?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well because -- I'm

22 putting this question to you because for us, the Judges, it's important

23 to know who did what. Apparently, according to what you have said, there

24 were three bodies in the field - the JNA, the Territorial Defence, and

25 the Chetniks. You have said that the JNA was coordinating everything.

Page 4720

1 That's what you said. And you have mentioned an event. You said that

2 the buses left with JNA soldiers and there were individuals at the site,

3 at the location you have described, that maltreated the detainees or

4 those who had been on the buses.

5 The Judges weren't present there. You are the victim. You were

6 there and you are in the best position to tell us what happened. Did you

7 feel that there was a change in the attitude of those who were guarding

8 you there, or was their attitude the same as the attitude of those who

9 had escorted you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll have to explain this in

11 detail now. I'll need a little time to do so. Yes, in my head the

12 situation is quite clear, but certain things can be confusing. When we

13 refer to the soldiers who left that place, well, we're talking about

14 perhaps 12 men who were JNA members and I wouldn't want this to confuse

15 you. I don't want you to think that the JNA left that area. I said, I

16 don't know how easy it is to interpret all of this, to make it

17 understandable, but I said that the JNA coordinated the entire operation

18 and that the three forces were still present in Ovcara. The soldiers who

19 left the place constituted a small number of soldiers who were in the

20 bus. In each bus there were probably about two men. So if we have six

21 buses, that's 12 men at the most. So I hope I have been clear now.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's very clear.

23 Mr. Prosecutor.

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Was it possible to avoid running the gauntlet, or did all the

Page 4721

1 prisoners who were on the buses have to run through the gauntlet?

2 A. They had to run the gauntlet.

3 Q. Can you remember the names of some of the individuals who ran the

4 gauntlet?

5 A. Well, naturally I remember Ivan Gruber, who was with me on the

6 bus. I also saw Zeljko Major. And I can remember two brothers who ran

7 the gauntlet. I remember them from Vukovar but I can no longer remember

8 their names. But there were a few people I recognised when they were

9 running the gauntlet.

10 Q. Once you got off the bus and before you ran the gauntlet composed

11 of Chetniks who beat you, what happened?

12 A. Well, I got off the bus. We lined up and we started approaching

13 that gauntlet. At that point in time a soldier approached me. He

14 started talking to me. On the whole they would ask us where we were

15 from, they'd ask us what we were doing there, where we had fought. These

16 were the usual questions put, and that is what I was asked about by this

17 soldier. He asked me where I was from. I said that I was from Zagreb.

18 And then he said something like, Well, what did you need this for? In

19 two or three days' time I'll be leaving the army and going away to Ruma.

20 And we established some kind of contact there.

21 I told him that I had been in Ruma quite frequently. He asked me

22 what I had done there. And then I told him that I had a very good friend

23 in Ruma. He asked me who that friend was. I told him his identity. I

24 asked him whether he could help me. He said, "That's not possible. May

25 god help you." And then I said, "Save me if you can, please." However,

Page 4722

1 it was time for me to run the gauntlet, and I ran the gauntlet, and then

2 entered the Ovcara hangar itself.

3 Q. Thank you. I have a few other questions in relation to what you

4 have just said. You said something about a friend. Could you give us

5 his name?

6 A. Miroslav, also known as Kemo, from Ruma. I can't remember his

7 surname.

8 Q. Thank you. This soldier who addressed you, was he a Chetnik?

9 Was he a JNA soldier, a reservist? Can you remember anything about this?

10 A. Well, he was a JNA soldier.

11 Q. Why do you claim that?

12 A. Well, he himself told me that he a few more days before he would

13 complete his military service and that he was then going to Ruma. And

14 given the way that he was dressed, you could see that he was a member of

15 the JNA.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you describe him for us? Could you describe

17 his physical appearance?

18 A. Well, at the time he was built like me. At the time I was -- I

19 weighed between 70 and 75 kilos. He was about my height, 1 metre, 75.

20 Short hair. Fairer than my hair, let's say light brown hair. And his

21 face was a little narrow. It wasn't very long but it wasn't your usual

22 round face.

23 Q. Thank you. And as far as his clothes are concerned, how was he

24 dressed?

25 A. Well, he was dressed like a JNA soldier, but he had some kind of

Page 4723

1 a JNA pilot jacket on him. He didn't have the usual JNA overcoat. He

2 had a sort of spitfire pilot jacket.

3 Q. As far as his trousers are concerned, could you describe them for

4 us? Can you remember what sort of trousers he was wearing?

5 A. Well, as I have said, everything else he had on him was the usual

6 JNA uniform.

7 Q. Fine. After you had run the gauntlet composed of soldiers who

8 beat you, you went to the hangar. And what happened there?

9 A. Well, after we had run the gauntlet we entered the hangar and

10 they continued beating you there. There was another group of people who

11 continued beating us there. Fortunately I wasn't beaten for very long in

12 the hangar.

13 Q. I'll stop you there for a follow-up question. When you say that

14 the beating continued, who beat you in the hangar? Could you tell us

15 whether the Chetniks, the JNA soldiers, or members of the Territorial

16 Defence beat you there?

17 A. Well, look, the Chetniks were most active when it came to

18 beating, but everyone would beat us. The JNA, the Territorial Defence,

19 the Chetniks, everyone beat us.

20 Q. How many people beat you in total? Can you remember the number?

21 A. Well, I believe that in Ovcara, in front of the hangar and in the

22 hangar, there were 150 men for sure. I know that there were more of them

23 there -- they were more numerous than we were.

24 Q. My question was how many people were there in the hangar who were

25 beating the prisoners?

Page 4724

1 A. Well, I'd say there were between 50 and 80 men who beat the

2 prisoners in that hangar. I must admit that it's difficult for me to

3 provide you with an estimate.

4 Q. Could you describe how the prisoners were beaten?

5 A. Well, it's not possible for me to describe this, but you could

6 hear people's bones breaking as a result of the beating. They'd use iron

7 rods, chains, rifle butts, spades, to beat the prisoners with. It's

8 unimaginable.

9 Q. Did you recognise anyone you knew in the hangar?

10 A. Well, I saw Zeljko Major standing by the wall in the hangar. I

11 recognised him. I heard them mentioning the name of Sinisa Glavasevic,

12 too, and I assume that's the person who was lying on the ground and who

13 was being beaten. That's what I can remember. But when you enter the

14 hangar you're not really in the mood for looking around. It's difficult

15 to remember the people who were there. I managed to remember these two

16 individuals in the hangar, though.

17 Q. Thank you. You said that the beating, as far as you are

18 concerned, didn't last for very long. Could you tell us what happened,

19 and why, when you say that it didn't last for very long?

20 A. Well, when I say the beating didn't last for long, I mean that it

21 didn't last for more than two or three minutes. The others were beaten

22 for two hours. I spent five minutes in the hangar at the most, because

23 afterwards this soldier I had spoken to outside of the hangar entered the

24 hangar and he spoke to an officer whom he called "Captain," and they both

25 took me out of the hangar.

Page 4725

1 Q. Can you tell us exactly what he said to the captain whom you have

2 mentioned, and how did you leave the hangar? Could you provide us with

3 more details?

4 A. I entered the hangar. They started beating me. Three of them

5 were beating me, I think. I was trying not to fall to the ground. I

6 tried to duck my head to the extent that this was possible and then I

7 heard someone say, "Don't beat him." I knew the voice. And this young

8 man, this soldier approached me. They stopped beating me. This officer

9 was with him. He grabbed me by the shoulder and he said, "Captain, let's

10 save this man. I know him."

11 Q. What did the captain say?

12 A. The captain then said, "Take him outside and make sure that the

13 Chetniks don't kill him." After that he grabbed me by the shoulder,

14 let's say he embraced me and said, "What's your name? I need to know

15 your name." I told him what my name was. And as we left the hangar I

16 stood by the door and I asked him what his name was. He then told me his

17 name was Ilija and that they called him Stuka.

18 Q. After that did you learn his first and last name? Were you able

19 to establish who exactly he was?

20 A. At the court in Belgrade I had occasion to hear his name, but

21 even before that I came across his name in a magazine and then I saw that

22 it wasn't Ilija but it was Stuka, which was still his nickname. And as

23 far as I can remember this magazine - I don't know the name exactly - but

24 it was published by the army, and Stuka was rewarded or decorated or

25 something like that. I found this magazine in a garage in a location

Page 4726

1 called Rakovica during the Operation Storm.

2 Q. And what was his full name indicated in the magazine?

3 A. Yes, his full name and his nickname.

4 Q. And what was it?

5 A. Spasoje Petkovic, Stuka.

6 Q. Thank you. You told us that he took you outside the hangar. Who

7 was outside the hangar, if anyone?

8 A. In front of the hangar there were another two or three men, some

9 men that someone had saved. I can't remember exactly whether I was among

10 the first to be taken out, but I know that there were some people already

11 there in front of the hangar and that I -- and also I know that some

12 people were brought to the same spot after me and saved.

13 Q. In all how many people were taken out of the hangar and saved, as

14 you say?

15 A. Seven.

16 Q. Do you remember their names?

17 A. Well, today I know those names. Perko Faro ^, Cakalic, Guncevic,

18 the late Perkovic, Kojic. Those are the names I can remember.

19 Q. When you say Perkovic, is it the same Perkovic as the commander

20 of your unit that you mentioned at the beginning of your testimony?

21 A. No, no. It is the same surname. I even think they had the same

22 first names, but they were two different people, another Perkovic that I

23 didn't know from before.

24 Q. What time was it when the seventh person of this group left the

25 hangar?

Page 4727

1 A. All of us were taken out of the hangar roughly about the same

2 time, within a period of some 15 or 20 minutes. However, we waited quite

3 a long time in front of the hangar.

4 Q. How long did you wait in front of the hangar?

5 A. In my assessment for at least half an hour. Maybe even as long

6 as one hour.

7 Q. And who guarded you while you were outside?

8 A. Well, this Stuka was next to me all the time and another soldier

9 who was on good terms with him. I think they called him Mujidza or

10 Mujidza. Mostly the two of them. And then another two of ordinary

11 regular JNA soldiers.

12 Q. Where were you waiting outside in relation to the hangar? Close

13 to the hangar? Some distance from the hangar? Could you be more

14 precise?

15 A. It was in front of the hangar, right next to the entrance door,

16 next to the wall adjoining the door.

17 Q. In what position was the gate? Was it open, fully closed, half

18 open?

19 A. When we entered it was opened, but then afterwards it was half

20 closed. They weren't fully open.

21 Q. Were you able to hear what was happening inside?

22 A. Of course I was. We could hear the beatings, the cries, the

23 screams, the calls for help, yelling by the enemy, swear-words, bad

24 language. In fact, I heard people's bones breaking while I was outside

25 when they were being beaten.

Page 4728

1 Q. You mentioned earlier on that the beating lasted about two hours.

2 I can check in the transcript. So this included the period you were

3 outside while you could hear the blows. Is that your testimony?

4 A. Well, you see, when I said two, maybe as long as two and a half

5 hours, I'm talking about the entire period of beatings from the moment

6 you ran through the gauntlet till you got inside. And the people who

7 entered first they were beaten the longest, because the search and the

8 running the gauntlet took a little time.

9 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification. About what time do

10 you believe that the beating inside stopped, in the hangar?

11 A. Yes, they stopped, but again I didn't have a watch. But I can

12 judge by the weather outside, by the fact that it was still daylight when

13 the beating stopped. It just started to get dark when it stopped.

14 Q. Thank you. In addition to the blows and the noise you heard in

15 the hangar, did you hear other noises while you were outside the hangar

16 that attracted your attention?

17 A. Well, I remember some sort of a whistle like a football coach may

18 use, a football referee, but it was some kind of a whistle used for

19 orders and replacements because they couldn't go on beating all the time

20 so they would probably taking turns. But I can't be very precise. I

21 heard that whistle when I was in front of the hangar, and it's difficult

22 for me to state clearly whether this was an indication of a change of

23 shifts, but that is what I seem to recall.

24 Q. Thank you. And outside the hangar did you hear any noises that

25 drew your attention?

Page 4729

1 A. Well, I heard some kind of a sound of some sort of a vehicle, a

2 tank, a dredger. I heard the sound of an engine, some sort of engine.

3 Q. Did you ask what it was?

4 A. I did at a point in time. While I was talking about Stuka, I

5 even asked him what was going to happen to all these people and he said

6 they would be killed. Then I asked him what the noise was and then he

7 said that they were dredgers digging holes. So that is what I learnt

8 talking to him. I can't say that I saw any of that, but this is all on

9 the basis of the conversation that we had.

10 Q. Thank you. What else did you talk about with Stuka when you were

11 outside?

12 A. Well, Stuka saw that I was wearing boots which they called Zenga,

13 and these were boots, let's call them mountaineering boots or so-called

14 Canadians that were manufactured in the Borovo footwear factory, and as

15 it was getting colder the boots were very good for us because there were

16 quite a number of boots in that factory. He suggested that I take off

17 those boots, and I took them off so they wouldn't kill me as a Zenga

18 because of those boots. And on a pile of footwear he found another pair

19 of shoes. I put them on.

20 And he also found an old leather jacket on this pile. He gave me

21 that jacket too to put on. And I remember that he said that he had seen

22 a ring on my finger, which I didn't take off when I got into the

23 gauntlet. They took off my cross from the necklace, they took my

24 documents, the photographs of my wife and child, but nobody took off my

25 ring. And then he said to me, "It would be a good idea to take off that

Page 4730

1 ring and throw it away so the Chetniks don't cut off your finger because

2 of that ring." And I remember taking off the ring and I said, "Please,

3 you take this ring of mine. It's better for you to wear it than for me

4 to throw it into the rubbish."

5 At first he didn't want to take the ring. I asked him, I begged

6 him, I said, "Maybe one day you will be able to hand it back to me." It

7 was my wedding ring. And after I asked him kindly he took it. And I

8 remember that his hands were bigger than mine and he couldn't put it on

9 his wedding finger. He put it on his small finger, on his little finger.

10 Q. You said so as not to be killed because of these boots. Could

11 you explain why the boots?

12 A. It wasn't popular for you to be recognised as a Zenga, as they

13 called us. Zenga is short for ZNG which means Zbor Narodne Garde, or the

14 National Guards Corps. And they had the impression that all the boots --

15 or, rather, whoever was wearing those boots was a member of the ZNG, the

16 guards, though this did not correspond to the truth. They were simply

17 warm and everyone used them.

18 Q. I understand. Did you at some point enter the hangar again?

19 A. Yes, we did. When the beating stopped, then they formed some

20 sort of a group which was supposed to compile a list of names. And we

21 entered the hangar. There was a small table there or some boxes or

22 something like that, and JNA officers and soldiers were standing by this

23 table and this is where they were making this list of men.

24 Q. Thank you. And what was the situation in the hangar? What was

25 the condition of the prisoners in there?

Page 4731

1 A. Well, you see, I didn't really look closely, but those that were

2 close by and who I saw as I entered, I saw people lying on the ground.

3 Some were still moaning and crying quietly. I saw some standing, too. I

4 can't say whether those that were lying were dead or beaten up, but there

5 were quite a number of people lying on the ground.

6 Q. Thank you. After giving the names of the seven men what

7 happened? Did you stay there? Did you leave?

8 A. We were taken out again in front of the hangar and a vehicle

9 arrived. I think it was white. When I entered this vehicle I saw

10 baskets that were used to distribute bread, loaves of bread, and then in

11 this vehicle we were taken away from Ovcara. It was almost dark but not

12 quite nighttime yet.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would like to show the exhibit

15 under 65 ter 2521. 2521, page 21 -- 22, I'm sorry.

16 Q. Mr. Karlovic, could you tell us what this picture shows?

17 A. I see now that it is the Ovcara hangar.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you please

19 assist the witness so he could mark with a circle the hangar that you

20 entered and where the prisoners were put.

21 Q. And would you mark it with the letter A.

22 A. So a circle and the letter A.

23 Q. Thank you. Could you now tell us where the five or six buses

24 were parked and mark it with the letter B.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 4732

1 Q. Could you now mark with a cross where you saw Stuka for the first

2 time. Encircle this place and mark it with the letter C.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And perhaps you will need an arrow so as to avoid crowding, the

5 spot where you waited outside together with these seven people, guarded

6 by Stuka, make a circle and put the letter D there.

7 A. I don't quite understand where you want me to put an arrow.

8 Q. No, no, this is quite clear enough now. It's not overcrowded.

9 So this is the spot where you were outside the hangar.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to

11 submit this document.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have a number,

13 Mr. Registrar?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P276.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, perhaps

16 it is time for the break now.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we are going to have a

18 break. According to my reckoning you have used one hour, 50 minutes, so

19 you will have another 40 minutes left when we resume.

20 So we will now have a 20-minute break.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.51 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. We should

24 be able to complete the examination-in-chief today.

25 I give the floor to the Prosecution.

Page 4733

1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ten seconds, please, just ten

3 seconds of your time. Would you ask the Registry to provide you with a

4 certificate that Marina Raguz has received the e-mail message, Marina

5 Raguz. She says that the message arrived at 2005 hours last night and

6 that she hadn't had an opportunity of confirming the reception of that

7 message. That's what I learned in my telephone contacts. So could they

8 provide you with proof that it was sent out on Friday, as they claim.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. I don't have much time, Mr. Karlovic, so please listen carefully

12 to my questions and answer very precisely. Once you left Ovcara with

13 this group, where did you go?

14 A. From Ovcara we were driven first of all to Velepromet for a brief

15 period and then we continued our journey to Modateks, the textile

16 factory.

17 Q. Who was present at Modateks?

18 A. In Modateks there were civilians mostly - women, children,

19 elderly person - and the JNA soldiers were there, too.

20 Q. What did Stuka and the soldiers who were accompanying you do once

21 you arrived at Modateks?

22 A. Well, they were with us throughout. They stood guard over us and

23 handed us over at Modateks.

24 Q. Once they handed over -- handed you over to, I imagine, JNA

25 soldiers, what did they do?

Page 4734

1 A. Well, at one point I asked Stuka if he could stay with me until I

2 was safe and he said he had to move on, and he left Modateks with the

3 soldiers that brought us there.

4 Q. Thank you. What happened in the course of the night?

5 A. Well, during the night a group arrived at Modateks, a group of

6 Chetniks, and they asked what we were doing there, why we were there,

7 that we couldn't stay there and that they would come to fetch us in the

8 morning.

9 Q. Are you referring to this group of people that you were part of

10 or to all the people who were there, including women and children?

11 A. I mean the group that we were. Seven of us, actually.

12 Q. Did you recognise anyone from before amongst these Chetniks?

13 A. Well, I recognised one man from all these events.

14 Q. Could you be more precise?

15 A. Well, the person who came to Modateks, I had seen him at the

16 Vukovar barracks and at Ovcara, too, beforehand. He was perhaps a little

17 taller than me. He had a moustache and the various Chetnik insignia -

18 the cap, the cockade.

19 Q. Did you learn his name?

20 A. Well, to be quite frank, two names are in my head. I don't know

21 how I remember those. So it's certainly one of those two names. Whether

22 it was Topala or Budza.

23 Q. When you say "Topala" or "Budza," that concerns the Chetnik that

24 you mentioned?

25 A. The name was Bulidza. Bulidza was the other name.

Page 4735

1 Q. This person Topala or Bulidza, I apologise for my pronunciation,

2 did this person say anything in particular?

3 A. Well, I remember that he asked us how come we were there, where

4 we had come from, and then the locals from Vukovar explained where we

5 were from. And at one point he said that he would kill us and those who

6 had brought us there to that place, Modateks. And I still seem to

7 remember that this man said -- I'm not quite sure, I think it was said in

8 the morning, because after that night they returned in the morning to

9 Modateks again and he said that he had been killing the whole night.

10 So because of that context I seemed to remember that they said

11 that when they returned on the second occasion. He said that he had been

12 killing the whole night and that he would continue to do so and that he

13 would kill us, too.

14 Q. You said they came back in the morning so I conclude that you

15 spent the night in Modateks. Did you leave with these Chetniks in the

16 morning?

17 A. No. When they came in the morning at that place, Modateks, there

18 was a group of soldiers there and a JNA reservist was in command of that

19 group. I think his nickname was Deda. They referred to him as Deda, or

20 grandfather, because he was a little older. And when they came to

21 collect us in the morning, Deda told him that we had to clear up the

22 whole hall and that afterwards we would be placed at their disposal, that

23 kind of thing.

24 Q. Once you had cleaned up the hall what happened, when you had

25 finished that work?

Page 4736

1 A. When we cleaned it up, this man Deda organised some soldiers to

2 get us away from that place, Modateks. So in a column, one by one, we

3 moved towards Velepromet, which as far as I can remember was fairly near

4 to this Modateks place.

5 Q. Why did they decide to send you to Velepromet? Why did Deda make

6 this decision?

7 A. Well, he even said that he was sending us there so that these

8 people could come back and kill us. Deda seemed to me to be okay. His

9 conduct was proper towards us.

10 Q. Could you perhaps repeat your answer? Perhaps there was a

11 translation error. Did you say that he sent you there so that the others

12 could return and beat you? Is that what he said? That's how it has been

13 interpreted in English.

14 A. No, no. What I was saying is that Deda took us over there so

15 that they would not kill us, the Chetniks that came. And as I say, he

16 wanted to get us away from these Chetniks who said they would kill us.

17 Q. Very well. That's clear. When you arrived at Velepromet who was

18 there? I'm referring to the enemy.

19 A. I saw the military police of the JNA. I saw the territorials,

20 and they were the dominant people mostly.

21 Q. And you said that they were there mostly, but at Velepromet were

22 there any other soldiers who were members of some other group, apart from

23 the JNA and the military police?

24 A. Well, afterwards I came to realise that there were others, in

25 view of the fact that the Chetnik units took people out of the premises

Page 4737

1 we were in.

2 Q. You have just mentioned the area you were kept in. You were

3 placed in a building, in a certain -- at a certain site. Could you be

4 more precise?

5 A. Well, let's put it this way: It was a house or a warehouse. I

6 don't know what to call it. I learnt later that they referred to it as

7 the Stolarija, carpentry shop. Well, 50 or 60 metres away you come

8 across that premises and they referred to it as the Stolarija, or

9 carpentry workshop. And there was a door there and I entered and went

10 left, because there were several rooms in that carpentry workshop, so I

11 went left.

12 Q. How did you find out that it was the carpentry workshop? Did

13 someone tell you that that was the case? Did you find out about it

14 later?

15 A. I learnt that quite a long time afterwards.

16 Q. And who told you about that?

17 A. I don't really know. I don't remember, but I think that when I

18 was here to testify for the first or second time, I realised that it was

19 the carpentry workshop. But at the time I didn't know that that was what

20 it was. All I knew is that it was a house with those premises.

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 7182. 7182.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Prosecutor, while we are waiting for this

23 next exhibit to come up on the screen, I would like you to explore with

24 the witness because this is not entirely clear how many people were taken

25 from Ovcara Farm to Velepromet and then to Modateks? Was it only the

Page 4738

1 seven people who were taken outside and saved or did other prisoners come

2 out of the hangar in Ovcara and brought along with them? So how big was

3 the group that was taken away from Ovcara?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I know is that in my group,

5 the group I was in, there were seven. Now, whether somebody else managed

6 to escape or was saved afterwards, I don't know.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you ever meet anyone from the farm at Ovcara

8 again after you left?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the people who were saved

10 like me?


12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. I did come across

13 some.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And did you meet some of those who were not saved

15 with you outside, I mean any one of the other seven? Did you -- my

16 question is: Did you ever see again any of the people who were left

17 inside the hangar?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have the photograph 7182.

21 Could the Prosecution tell us where this photograph is from?

22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must admit that I

23 don't know who took this photograph, nor do I know when it was taken.

24 I'm only interested in the site, in the lie of the land, if you like.

25 Q. Mr. Karlovic, what does the main building represent? What is it,

Page 4739

1 the main building one can see in the middle of the photograph?

2 A. That's the carpentry workshop that I mentioned a moment ago.

3 Q. Could you take a marker and indicate, if possible, the place that

4 you were detained in. Could you mark this location with an X perhaps.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

8 have this document entered into the record.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number,

10 Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P277, Your Honours.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Q. Witness, how long did you stay in this location?

14 A. Several hours. At least three hours.

15 Q. Thank you. Who else was there in that room?

16 A. There were some other prisoners, people like me. There might

17 have been as many as 20 people in that room.

18 Q. Tell us whether they were women, men, or children.

19 A. I remember the most being -- mostly being men. There was a young

20 boy there, though, who was there who certainly wasn't older than 15. He

21 might have been 13 or 14 years old.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you see people in uniforms or were they wearing

23 civilian clothes? Could you describe how they were dressed?

24 A. The people in those premises were all wearing civilian clothes.

25 Q. And what were their ethnic origins?

Page 4740

1 A. I think most of them were Croats. But having mentioned that

2 14-year-old boy, as he was killed that day at Velepromet, later on his

3 brother visited me in Zagreb when I was liberated and that's when I

4 learnt that they were of mixed ethnicity. They weren't purely Croats.

5 Q. Thank you. While you were in that room - and you already

6 answered part of the question I was going to put to you - but while you

7 were there what happened? Can you describe the events for us?

8 A. Well, Chetniks entered the room, members of the Chetnik

9 formations, and they would take people out, outside the room. I can't

10 remember exactly now, but to the best of my recollections about three

11 people were taken out before I myself was taken out.

12 Q. Did these individuals go out together or separately? Were they

13 taken out in a group or separately?

14 A. As far as I remember they were taken out one by one.

15 Q. Can you remember who the first person to go out was?

16 A. The first person -- well, I can't remember exactly, but I do

17 know -- I was 20 years old at the time so this man seemed to be older

18 than me, and I would say he was about 40 years old, the man that was

19 taken out.

20 Q. And did you find out about what happened to him?

21 A. I did not find out, no. We could hear some of the initial

22 conversation between the Chetniks and the people who were taken out, but

23 all I know is that afterwards I learnt that all -- of all the people who

24 were taken out, only I returned alive to the room.

25 Q. Fine. Can you remember who the second person to be taken out

Page 4741

1 from the building by the Chetniks was?

2 A. To be quite frank, I have to say that it's fairly difficult for

3 me to remember all those things now and the order in which they took

4 place. But I seem to remember that Perkovic was taken out, but I have to

5 say that I'm not quite sure about that. And I do know that this young

6 boy was taken out, the one I mentioned a moment ago.

7 Q. And you said you could hear the beginning of a conversation

8 between the Chetniks and the people who were being taken out. But did

9 you hear anything else afterwards, once these three individuals had been

10 taken out?

11 A. Well, I heard when they said to this young boy that he should

12 take off his clothes, and I heard when they started beating him and when

13 he started crying and wailing and said, "Please, it hurts. Stop.

14 Don't." And he was probably taken out, somewhere outside, so that the

15 voices became feint. But we could hear something almost all the time.

16 And some 10 to 15 minutes later after this moaning and wailing and

17 crying, we heard some sort of shooting from an automatic pistol or

18 something like that, we heard some shots, and that's where it ended.

19 This noise or these screams stopped.

20 Q. Could you tell us how you heard all of this? You were in a

21 building and these individuals had been taken outside. How was it

22 possible for you to hear what was happening once these people had been

23 taken outside?

24 A. Well, there was a window to that room and everything took place

25 quite close by and with loud voices. But anyway, there was a window in

Page 4742

1 the premises we were in.

2 Q. Did you see any of these three people again after they had been

3 taken out?

4 A. No. No, I did not.

5 Q. Just a detail I forgot to mention. The seven of you from your

6 group were all in the same room, to the left, in the carpentry workshop.

7 Is that the case? Or were you separated? Were you still in the same

8 group in the room? And were these 20 individuals in that room?

9 A. It's like this: As far as I can remember we weren't in -- all in

10 that same room.

11 Q. Do you know where the others were, the others who were part of

12 this group of seven?

13 A. I assume that they were in one of the other rooms that existed

14 there, because we could hear the voices from that other room. We heard

15 the voices, for instance, when people were taken out of there. I heard

16 them, actually. I heard them. I'm speaking about myself.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that you had been taken out.

18 Can you tell us what happened to you?

19 A. As it was getting dusk, a group of Chetniks came to fetch me, a

20 group that hadn't taken part in taking people out that day. There were

21 three of them, actually, three men. And they said that I was being taken

22 to the major for interrogation. But I knew that that was not the case.

23 And they took me out. One of them held a rifle to me; the other had a

24 Kalashnikov. And the man who was biggest built, Belgija, he held me and

25 forced me to sing Croatian songs and took me from Velepromet along a road

Page 4743

1 which was near the railway line, and some 100 metres on a vehicle arrived

2 and we all got into it.

3 Q. You mentioned a railway line. Was it far from Velepromet or

4 close to Velepromet, the railway line where the car stopped and picked

5 you up?

6 A. Well, I exited by an exit on the opposite side and the railway

7 was near Velepromet and the road.

8 Q. Where did the vehicle take you to?

9 A. I was taken to Petrova Gora, to a house there where there were

10 some Chetniks.

11 Q. How many Chetniks were there in this house?

12 A. Well, I would say about 20.

13 Q. Was this house far from Velepromet? How long did the trip take?

14 A. We weren't driven for a long time. It might have been just some

15 two or three minutes until we arrived at the house.

16 Q. Thank you. Did you find out the names of any of these Chetniks

17 who were in the house?

18 A. What I remember is Belgija, a man called Belgija, and some --

19 another man that they referred to as Cedo. And they had two names which

20 I'm not quite sure of. The eldest Chetnik among them I think was Miljan

21 or Smiljan, a name like that. And then there was a woman, and I'm not

22 sure whether she was Darca or Arca, but something like that. So those

23 are the names that ring a bell.

24 Q. How did you find out their names?

25 A. Well, Belgija introduced himself to me and I heard other people

Page 4744

1 calling this man Ceda and the other names. From them, I heard them

2 referring to each other using those names. But Belgija introduced

3 himself to me.

4 Q. Thank you. Once you had entered the house what happened?

5 A. As soon as I entered the house there was general jubilation.

6 Belgija spat in my face and -- well, can I use swear-words here, if you

7 want me to repeat the exact words that were said to me?

8 Q. Say what you remember, but it all depends on the Presiding Judge.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Say what you remember.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when he spat in my face, he

11 said, "We Chetniks will show you what we know. We're going to fuck your

12 mother, you cunt."

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And after he said that, what happened to you?

15 A. After that they made me sit down at the table, if I can call it

16 that, somewhere in the middle of the room. The table was about 4 metres

17 long. And all the Chetniks were sitting around that table. To my left

18 there was Belgija; to my right there was this elderly Chetnik. I said

19 his name was either Smiljan or Miljan, I can't remember. But behind me

20 with a rifle to my head was Ceda. And the others were sitting around the

21 table. Opposite me was this woman.

22 Q. And how were you treated?

23 A. The torture began straight away. They asked me where I was from,

24 what I did. They kept beating me while they were asking me these

25 questions. Then they took off the top part of my clothing and I was bare

Page 4745

1 to the waist. They stripped me to the waist. And another thing that

2 happened was I happened to be wearing a black T-shirt underneath my outer

3 clothing and they said I was one of the black shirters, an Ustasha. They

4 went mad when they saw this black T-shirt and the torture started up.

5 Q. Very briefly could you describe the kind of torture inflicted on

6 you?

7 A. Well, the essential point to tell you is that when all this

8 started there was somebody -- a man sitting in the corner of the room who

9 said to -- asked them why they were doing all that, and they even had an

10 argument over it. And after that Belgija told this man sitting in the

11 corner, "If you don't want to take part, then leave the room," and the

12 man actually did leave the house.

13 Now, after that they tried to burn my hair with a lighter and my

14 nipples, and they started -- they tried to set fire to my hair, but as it

15 was damp at they didn't manage to burn me with the lighter. And there

16 were two candles on the table, and then Belgija took one of these candles

17 and placed the candles to my ear, to my hair, to my hand. And at one

18 point because I wasn't tied, they hadn't tied me, I reacted instinctively

19 and the candle fell off the floor -- fell off the table to the floor.

20 And the person on my right went mad, took a bottle from the table, hit it

21 against my head, cut my right arm and cut me on the back.

22 And while I was still sitting on the chair, Belgija took up the

23 candle again and started burning my nipples with this candle. I took it

24 as long as I could and then I couldn't and started screaming and

25 gesticulating with my hands. And then they started beating me again so I

Page 4746

1 fell off the chair, fell to the floor. They started beating me again.

2 They picked me up. However, at that point something happened. People

3 entered the room, the people who actually saved me afterwards.

4 Q. Can you briefly tell us how they saved you?

5 A. If I can just add something before I go on to answer that.

6 Q. Yes, of course. Go ahead.

7 A. During that torture the woman persuaded them -- tried to persuade

8 them to rape me and then cut off my genitals and slaughter me in the

9 yard, and she was persistent in that, in trying to persuade them to rape

10 me.

11 We can go on now. What was your question?

12 Q. Yes. That is your testimony and you are here to tell us. How

13 did you feel? You said that two men entered. Could you tell us briefly

14 what they did and how you emerged from this situation?

15 A. Well, two men entered, and later on I learnt who they were, but

16 an argument broke out. The man whose nickname was Kinez, well, it

17 appeared to me as he was some authority amongst these other people, and

18 he said something like, "Belgija, why are you doing that? Did you

19 capture that man at the front?" And I remember he said, "You're all

20 young men. Why are you dirtying your hands with blood? There's been

21 enough of all that. He's a prisoner of war. If he is guilty, he must be

22 held responsible." But Belgija entreated him and he said, "We'll just do

23 this one and then we won't do it anymore."

24 However, this man Kinez did not give up. He went round the

25 table, took hold of me by one arm, and with him escorting him was another

Page 4747

1 man. I knew that he was a volunteer. I don't know whether he belonged

2 to the Chetniks or the Territorial Defence, but I do know that he was a

3 volunteer and his nickname was Mare and the two of them were armed and

4 that's when the struggle started. They tried to pull me out of the

5 house, and at one point they were successful. They did manage to pull me

6 out of the house. They placed me in the yard. However, the Chetniks

7 went of the house came into the yard again, and Cedo was the most

8 aggressive one who had cocked his weapon at Kinez as well and this other

9 man Maro, and Kinez said to him, "Brothers, don't force me to shoot.

10 This is quite nonsensical. This mustn't go on."

11 After that we went out into the street where, with my hands on up

12 above of my head, I walked in front of them, several metres in front of

13 them along the street and Mare and Kinez were escorting me that way. We

14 entered another courtyard very quickly, and --

15 Am I speaking too fast? I'm sorry, am I too fast for the

16 interpreters?

17 Q. That's fine.

18 A. In the courtyard, and it was already getting dark, somebody was

19 waiting there for us. I think he was a captain. Anyway, he was an

20 officer. And a woman was there, too. And they gave me some water to

21 drink from the well and I was given an apple.

22 Q. After that where did you go?

23 A. What I want to say is that Belgija came to the yard after me and

24 he asked Kinez and Maro to hand me over to him once again. But they

25 refused to do that, and that's important.

Page 4748

1 Now, several metres away there was another house. We went into

2 this other house which is where the military police was located. And

3 there was an officer there belonging to the military police and he took

4 me over. They gave me -- rather, I was given something to put on, some

5 clothes, because I was bare. Anyway, this officer, Mare, Kinez, and two

6 or three other soldiers from the military police, put me into an APC and

7 they took me back to Velepromet.

8 Q. Thank you. When you reached Velepromet where did they put you?

9 A. I was taken back to the same room I was taken out of in the first

10 place.

11 Q. How long did you stay in that room?

12 A. As I was all bloody and cut up and I had wounds on my head, I was

13 so tired that I sort of lost conscious -- I dropped off, I sort of went

14 into a sleep.

15 Q. And you stayed there for a long time in that room, or did you go

16 somewhere else afterwards?

17 A. We stayed in that room, as far as I can remember, for about two

18 hours, or perhaps one hour. And I do know that another officer entered

19 the room. He was a man of short build, a sort of sports -- of a sports

20 build with a strong voice. And while I was lying on the floor I heard

21 him ask in Serbian, "Where's the man that they cut up?" And at first I

22 was afraid but then I woke up, I came to, and I saw that it was a JNA

23 army soldier and there was somebody else that seemed to me to be a

24 special, one of the specials with a rifle and with a camouflage uniform,

25 a security detail for that officer.

Page 4749

1 He looked at my wounds, saw where I'd been cut up, and told a

2 soldier who was standing there that he should go and fetch a doctor. And

3 I remember him saying, "We've been fighting with the Ustashas for an hour

4 and now we're going to have to tackle the Chetniks."

5 After that, to cut a long story short, I was given medical aid

6 and assistance and I was placed in that commander's car. And I remember

7 this very well, it was an Opel Omega with a clock -- a little watch in

8 front, or a clock. It's just a detail that I happen to remember. I

9 remember looking at it and it was 20 minutes to midnight.

10 So the soldier escorting this commander, whom I referred to as

11 one of the specials, he sat -- got in the back of the Omega and he sat in

12 the front with the driver of this Omega car --

13 Q. Yes, I'll come back to that. Were other people following you

14 also?

15 A. That's what I was going to say. To continue my story, while all

16 this was going on and happening to me, the commander - and I realised

17 that he came from the Vukovar barracks, I realised that later on - he

18 organised everybody to leave the room. And I remember that the bus that

19 was there, they couldn't turn the engine on, so they all started pushing

20 the bus and then got into the bus, and together with this other vehicle

21 that I was in, we were taken all together to the Vukovar barracks.

22 Q. I see. Where did you spend the night?

23 A. Well, I spent the night at the Vukovar barracks, in a room there.

24 Q. And what happened the next morning?

25 A. The next morning, on the 22nd of November, 1991, we were, all of

Page 4750

1 us, put on a bus which was a kind of two-part bus and we were taken to

2 Sremska Mitrovica.

3 Q. And where in Sremska Mitrovica? Could you be more specific?

4 A. Sremska Mitrovica is in Serbia. It is quite close to the border.

5 I was put up in one of the premises in the prison which is actually a

6 civilian prison.

7 Q. I see. So you were in prison. How long did you stay in prison?

8 A. I was there for exactly six months.

9 Q. Six months. And what happened?

10 A. There was an exchange and I was exchanged.

11 Q. Where did you go after the exchange? What was your destination?

12 A. I went to Zagreb.

13 Q. And once you reached Zagreb did you continue to take part in

14 combat operations; and if so, in which?

15 A. I was on sick-leave for about three or four months and then I

16 returned to the Dubrovnik theatre of war.

17 Q. So you took part in other operations?

18 A. Yes, I did. I was a member of the 1st Guards Brigade. I was a

19 professional soldier and I took part in all other operations that my unit

20 participated in, including the Dubrovnik theatre of war, the hinterland

21 of Zadar for two years. I took part in the Operations Lightning and

22 Storm -- Flash and Storm, I'm sorry.

23 Q. When you came to testify for the first time, do you remember

24 whether you travelled with other witnesses?

25 (redacted)

Page 4751

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. And did you discuss the contents of your testimony with these

7 other witnesses?

8 A. Not the contents. We spoke about the events that we had

9 witnessed. We discussed these things amongst ourselves but not really

10 the contents of my testimony. I didn't talk about it and they didn't

11 talk about it with me.

12 Q. Thank you. We are approaching the last question. Before your

13 testimony in 1996 you were in contact with the military security services

14 in Zagreb, were you?

15 A. Yes, of course. As a professional military man of Croatia I

16 couldn't go anywhere abroad without my superior in Croatia knowing about

17 it. So as an officer it was my duty to report leaving and going to a

18 foreign country, and I had to let them know why. That was the normal

19 procedure.

20 But I wish to say something. It is important to note that this

21 happened just before my first arrival here to testify. Before that in

22 1992, 1993, 1994, I never discussed this with anyone. I made my

23 statement only once in the office of the President of the republic,

24 Dr. Franjo Tudjman, and that was in 1992. That was my story, actually.

25 I recounted what had happened to me. Regarding the statement in the

Page 4752

1 office of the President of the republic is something I probably didn't

2 mention in my earlier testimony.

3 Q. I see. When you had this contact with the military security

4 service, did they tell you what you should say in the Tribunal regarding

5 your testimony?

6 A. You see, first of all, my story didn't need any kind of additions

7 because from the beginning I said that I only wanted to tell the truth.

8 My attitude towards the whole story is clear and this can be seen from my

9 going to Belgrade and testifying in favour of a man who was a member of

10 the enemy forces. I'm sorry that I didn't manage to liberate both of

11 them. I did manage to free only one. And I would never have allowed

12 anyone to influence my story or to tell me what I should say, because

13 it's bad enough as it is, because lies would be discovered sooner or

14 later and I would not have liked that to have happened. So I never

15 received any suggestions as to what I should say, never from anyone.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have a last question, if I may.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the last one, because we

18 need to adjourn.

19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Karlovic, does the name Colonel Ivankovic mean anything to

21 you; and if so what?

22 A. While we were standing in front of the hangar, a woman came in

23 front of the hangar and she was wailing and crying, saying that her son,

24 who was an invalid, was in the hangar. And she was asking this JNA

25 officer to bring her son out and he took her in and they brought out the

Page 4753

1 young man. She said that he was retarded, that he was not well. And

2 when this woman and her son were leaving, I remember that this man said,

3 "Remember that your son's life was saved by," and then there are several

4 surnames which are similar and I'm not sure which one it was; was it

5 Ivankovic, Ivanovic, or Jovanovic? These three surnames are similar and

6 I seem to remember them. The words were: "Remember that your son's life

7 was saved by," and then one of these three surnames was mentioned. I

8 can't remember which.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

11 Mr. President. Just a point of clarification. Regarding the video that

12 we saw with the flag - you will remember that - I have been told that the

13 video was made by Adno Verlinden in Vukovar for SkyNews, so the

14 information I gave was wrong.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

16 Sir, your examination-in-chief has just been completed. You will

17 come back tomorrow for the cross-examination. As now you're a witness of

18 justice, you will no longer be able to contact the Office of the

19 Prosecutor and you mustn't discuss what you have said with anyone,

20 including any witnesses that may be staying in the same hotel as you. So

21 you can talk about the rain, the weather, but not about the case. And

22 you will come back here tomorrow at 8.30 because that is when we begin

23 the hearing. So I'll ask Madam Usher to escort you out. I wish to touch

24 upon two other issues with Mr. Seselj before we adjourn, so you may leave

25 now.

Page 4754

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, all.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, first issue. You

4 asked for proof that Madam Raguz was informed. I wish to show you two

5 documents which show that Madam Raguz was informed on the 3rd of March,

6 at 4.52 in the afternoon, of the fact that the proceedings will be viva

7 voce. There's an e-mail sent by the officer of the Chamber to Ms. Marina

8 Raguz. And also a copy of the same was sent to the registrar of the case

9 and other individuals from the Tribunal. I will provide this for you.

10 A second document. On Monday, at 12.16, Madam Raguz again was

11 told that the Chamber had rendered a decision and that the Prosecutor and

12 you yourself would have two hours, 30 minutes, for the questions.

13 So here are the two documents which we are going to give you.

14 They are in English, but I think that you have some knowledge of the

15 language.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the 3rd of March is

17 not indicated anywhere here. There's no 3rd of March. This is an

18 English method of writing - though I don't know any English, but I hear a

19 word or two - this is the English way of writing first the month and then

20 the day. So when it says "3/10," it is not the 3rd of March but the 10th

21 of March. That was what was sent yesterday to Marina Raguz.

22 And the other document of the 7th of March, you know that that

23 was last Monday. After that there was Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

24 All three days we were here in the courtroom, and all these three days

25 you were telling me that Vilim Karlovic would be testifying under 92 ter

Page 4755

1 and I was complaining about it. So you see, your information is not

2 quite correct.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, do not add any

4 confusion. I wish to confirm, because I was a witness of this, that last

5 week, on Friday, Madam Raguz was informed, and you have the proof of it

6 in front of you. And Monday, the 10th of March, Madam Raguz again

7 received information that you would have two and a half hours, as well as

8 the Prosecutor. That is what was done. And who sent the information is

9 front of you -- in front of me, so please don't call in question the

10 people who have done everything they could for you to be informed in a

11 timely fashion. Madam Raguz was informed on Friday and on Monday.

12 So we are going to further improve the method of information. We

13 will make sure that you will be the one to receive without any delay this

14 type of information, and we are working on this so as to avoid this type

15 of problem.

16 Second point I wish to make: The Chamber, which discussed the

17 matter a moment ago, has decided that the next witness who will come on

18 Thursday, Mr. Berghofer, will be heard under the procedure of Rule 92

19 ter. As a result the Chamber gives the Prosecutor already now 30 minutes

20 for the presentation of the written and consolidated statement, dated the

21 6th of March, 2008. There are five documents which will be shown,

22 photographs and maps. And, Mr. Seselj, you will have one and a half

23 hours to cross-examine. The testimony of Mr. Berghofer will complete the

24 testimony of the witness that we heard today and that we had in front of

25 us.

Page 4756

1 It is Tuesday today. You have all of tomorrow to prepare for the

2 cross-examination. If you do not wish to ask questions under the

3 cross-examination, then the Chamber will ask questions and the testimony

4 of this witness will be completed on Thursday.

5 That is what I wanted to tell you. We have three more minutes

6 left. If you wish to take the floor, I will gladly give you the floor.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Are you going to explain to

8 me, Judge, that this is possible? If you, as a Trial Chamber, ruled

9 yesterday that Witness Vilim Karlovic should be heard viva voce, how is

10 it possible that the Registry could inform Marina Raguz on Friday about

11 it? The decision was made yesterday for Vilim Karlovic to be heard viva

12 voce. And secondly, why would the secretariat have to go by Belgrade to

13 inform me about this?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you straight away.

15 On Friday I was in contact with the office of the Chamber and with my

16 colleagues and we decided that it would be viva voce, and I gave

17 instructions that you should be immediately informed of this through the

18 intermediary of Madam Raguz. Also, we rendered a decision, a written

19 decision which consists of several pages, to specify the transfer from 92

20 ter to viva voce. As the written decision needs to be registered and

21 translated, this was only done on Monday. And it is an order to give you

22 time that we informed you about this on Friday, not to place you in a

23 position of a fait accomplis.

24 So you see, on the part of the Chamber, a maximum of effort was

25 invested to inform you. Maybe we did too much. Maybe we needn't have

Page 4757

1 done so much. We could have waited for Monday to tell you. But surely

2 you're not going to reproach us for this. That would be really too much.

3 We wanted to give you all the information in due time. We could have

4 waited until Monday for the decision to be recorded and communicated to

5 you. I wanted you to be informed several days in advance, that is as of

6 Friday.

7 If Madam Raguz, and I can understand that she may not have

8 received the message and was unable to convey it to you, fine. We are

9 going to remedy this and we will make sure that you receive the

10 information directly. It is true that if you had a Defence counsel, the

11 question would not arise. We would have immediately informed counsel and

12 he would have prepared himself. It so happens that you are acting as

13 your own counsel. We thought that your assistants are constantly in

14 touch with you, and informing them they would automatically inform you,

15 because of course there is telephone communication between Belgrade and

16 The Hague. This was not done. We will make sure that in future you will

17 have no cause for criticism. But you must know that the desire of the

18 Chamber was to inform you as soon as possible. That is what I wanted to

19 tell you, Mr. Seselj.

20 It is time to adjourn. My colleagues have to work in another

21 proceeding in a few minutes. We'll meet again tomorrow at 8.30.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just ten seconds, please.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can contact my

25 associates by telephone only when I call them and in no other way.

Page 4758

1 During the weekend Marina Raguz cannot contact me through the detention

2 authorities because the officer in the management of the detention centre

3 is not working during the weekend. And thirdly, for the five years, all

4 information, all decisions and all documents were handed over to me and I

5 had to sign for it. I have to sign everything I receive. So please do

6 not inform anyone else. When Marina Raguz is on trial, then you can send

7 her the information. Marina Raguz doesn't exist for you. She cooperates

8 with me and not with you. She has nothing to do with this Tribunal as

9 the question of her funding has not been resolved. She has no -- there's

10 no reason to contact her. I am the counsel here and as the counsel I

11 have to be informed like all other counsel. And you know my address and

12 it hasn't changed for the past five years. So why look for me via Addis

13 Ababa or Palma de Mallorca. Why don't they look for me in Scheveningen?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have taken note

15 of what you have said, and of course also the point that it is not

16 possible to communicate with you during the weekend.

17 As I said we will meet again tomorrow at 8.30. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.16 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

20 March, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.