Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5874

 1                           Wednesday, 9 April 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecution versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Registrar.

11             Today is the 9th of April, 2008.  I would like to greet the

12     representatives of the Prosecution, the witness, as well as Mr. Seselj,

13     and all the people assisting us today.

14             This hearing is dedicated to the interview of a witness as part

15     of the 92 ter procedure.  Last week, and no later than yesterday,

16     Mr. Seselj told us that he did not wish to cross-examine this witness,

17     but I don't know whether he will cross-examine the witness.  After a good

18     night's sleep, sometimes one can change one's mind, whatever the case may

19     be.

20             The proceeding will unfold as follows:  The Prosecutor will

21     briefly summarise the written statement of the witness, will put the

22     traditional questions to the witness on the content and the truthfulness

23     of what he has said, and in addition the Prosecutor can also put

24     questions to him and show him a few documents.  After that, the Bench

25     will put questions to the witness.

Page 5875

 1             I shall therefore ask the witness to take the solemn declaration.

 2     I will ask the witness to stand, please.

 3             Sir, can you give me your first name, last name, and date of

 4     birth, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Fadil Kopic.  I was born

 6     on the 5th of March, 1966.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have an occupation

 8     currently?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unemployed at present.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been on the dole for

11     how many months, how many years?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't been working since

13     the end of the war, so for 15 years, roughly.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a source of income?

15     Do you have subsidies?  Do you have a personal fortune?  How do you live?

16     How have you been living for the last 15 years?  What do you live off?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I receive some social benefits

18     from the municipality.  I'm on welfare.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

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Page 5876

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10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I might ask a question before I

12     ask you to take the solemn declaration.  You have been interviewed by the

13     OTP, but have you been interviewed by any other investigators or police

14     officers?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Never?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read the text of the

19     solemn declaration now.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VS-1014

23                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you may sit down.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5877

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

 2     Prosecutor, some information I would like to impart to you, and I would

 3     like to explain to you how this hearing is going to unfold.  I will,

 4     after that, give the floor to Mr. Seselj, who would like to take the

 5     floor.

 6             You will have to answer questions which the Prosecutor will put

 7     to you.  You have met him, I'm sure, over the weekend or a few days ago

 8     with a view to preparing this hearing.  After that, I will put a number

 9     of questions to you and my colleagues will put a number of questions to

10     you, and if need be, I will ask Mr. Seselj if he has any intention of

11     putting questions to you.

12             Once all the questions have been put, you can then leave and go

13     back home.

14             Mr. Seselj, I believe you raised your hand and wanted to raise

15     something.  What would you like to say?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, before the witness took the

17     solemn declaration, I wanted to raise an administrative issue.  Now, if

18     that's possible now, I'll do it now.  If not, I'll do it after the break.

19     It has nothing to do with this witness at all.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not a problem.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five minutes ago, my associates

22     from Belgrade sent me a photocopy of an article that appeared in the

23     Belgrade "Daily Blitz" with a large circulation.  It appeared on the 6th

24     of April, the article, and it continues the propaganda war either by the

25     Registry or the OTP of The Hague Tribunal against me, because here, in

Page 5878

 1     over half a page, a lie is being stated that in the Detention Unit I met

 2     the Defence counsel of Ramush Haradinaj and that British lawyers from

 3     Tony Blair's chambers had a meeting with me, too.  Now, I don't have an

 4     opportunity of addressing the public and making statements for the press,

 5     and I demand that the Registry denies this straight away and to

 6     investigate whether the lie came from amongst its ranks or from the

 7     offices of the OTP, and the Detention Unit administration knows full well

 8     that I never had any meetings either with Ramush Haradinaj's lawyers or

 9     any other lawyers, for that matter.  And if I happen to say hello to a

10     Serbian lawyer in passing, that would be all.  So I think that this is

11     truly unbelievable, and I think it's just the first of a series of

12     attempts to launch false news from The Hague Tribunal by those who don't

13     like my successful defence and wish to slander me in various ways.

14             This has inflicted enormous moral damage to me.  I can provide a

15     copy for the OTP and the Registry, for copies for the Trial Chamber,

16     et cetera, and I'd like a copy to be returned to me, but I think you must

17     stand up and protect me.

18             Everything that has to do with this Tribunal and the lies put out

19     by the Tribunal in the media and that I'm not able to answer and respond

20     to them, somebody else has to do that in my name for me.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall make copies and have

22     it translated, and then we will ask the Registry to provide us with

23     further information.  And if the information stemmed from the prison --

24     we shall also give a copy to the Prosecutor.  Very well.  And we will

25     keep you posted and tell you what the prison warden has to say about

Page 5879

 1     this.

 2             Mr. Prosecutor, I shall now give you the floor.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we

 4     briefly move into private session.  I have a short issue to raise.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move into

 6     private session for a few moments, Madam Registrar, please.

 7                           [Private session]

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Page 5880











11 Page 5880 redacted. Private session.















Page 5881

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you have asked

15     me to do, I now suggest reading the testimony of this witness.  Let me

16     begin, and I would like the interpreters to let me know if I'm reading

17     too fast:

18             The witness is a Muslim man who was born in March of 1966 in

19     Caparde in the Kalesija Municipality.  He completed vocational school

20     training to become a waiter.  He also completed military service in

21     1985-1986 in Zagreb, Croatia.  He is married with children.

22             He was 26 years old and still living in Caparde when the conflict

23     began.

24             On May 5th, 1992, the witness and about 30 other people tried to

25     flee from Cerska to free territory.  When they reached the village of

Page 5882

 1     Planinci, a part of the group, including the witness, was arrested and

 2     detained by civil police officers.  The witness and his companions were

 3     taken to the Serbian village of Vidovici.  There, the witness saw men in

 4     civilian, police and military clothes.  The detainees were searched and

 5     their money, documents, watches and gold were taken.  Then they were

 6     ordered to lie on the ground and were beaten.  One of the captors, an

 7     older man with a subara, that is a high fur hat and long beard, said that

 8     he would kill them.  Another person declared that their orders were to

 9     take the detainees to Zvornik.

10             The policemen restrained the witness and the other detainees'

11     hands and loaded them on a truck to Zvornik.  The truck first stopped at

12     the Alhos factory in Karakaj, where the police captors spoke to a group

13     of Serb soldiers, with a group of Serb soldiers in green and grey

14     uniform.  The soldiers pulled the tarpaulin cover off the truck up to

15     beat them.  The witness arrived in Zvornik and the truck stopped at the

16     SUP building, where they were questioned about their background and

17     threatened.

18             After questioning, they were taken back to Karakaj to the

19     Ekonomija farm.  At the Ekonomija farm, the witness was placed in a

20     concrete room, 15 to 20 square metres in size, which had blood stains on

21     the wall.  There was a window 50 centimetres high with bars on it.

22             For the first few days, the witness had no bedding.  Hay and

23     cardboard was eventually provided.  There were no soap and no towels.

24     Some guards allowed the detainees to use toilet facilities.  They were

25     guarded by men in olive grey JNA uniforms.

Page 5883

 1             About two hours after arriving at the Ekonomija farm, a group of

 2     soldiers wearing camouflage uniforms came in.  They each had pistols and

 3     automatic weapon and a knife.  They threatened the detainees and cursed

 4     them.  They cursed President Milosevic and glorified their leader who

 5     they said was Vojislav Seselj.  Soon the soldiers started beating them.

 6     They were kicked and hit with rifle-butts.  Some detainees lost

 7     consciousness, and water was poured on them to revive them.  The witness

 8     later learned that these men were from Kraljevo.  These men included

 9     Major Dragan Toro, Zoks, Pufta, Savo, and Repak.

10             A few days later, the witness was joined by more detainees from

11     the Standard factory in Karakaj.  In fact, new detainees often arrived

12     and others left.  At one time, there were 40 detainees at Ekonomija.  All

13     of the detainees were repeatedly beaten by the group from Kraljevo and a

14     group of five or six military policemen from Loznica, including Rogonja,

15     Brko and Cupo.  The witness saw one detainee sexually assaulted.  This

16     detainee was then killed.  The guards [Realtime transcript read in error

17     "Croats"] did nothing to stop this treatment.

18             Based on what the men from Kraljevo said, the witness believes

19     that they reported directly to Seselj.  Pivarski later joined these men

20     and took part in the beatings as well.  In one instance, Niski, one of

21     the men from Loznica, lined up detainees and selected the most physically

22     fit.  The selected group was then put on a truck and taken to the

23     Novi Izvor brick factory, also known as Ciglana.  The witness was not

24     among the selected group.

25             Later that day, the witness was approached by Pivarski and asked

Page 5884

 1     if the witness had any money and if he had someone willing to pay for his

 2     release.  The witness offered 700 Deutsche mark which he had carefully

 3     hidden.  As a result, the witness was taken to Ciglana.  He doesn't know

 4     what happened to the others who remained in the detention room at the

 5     Ekonomija farm.

 6             In Ciglana, the witness worked with the men from Loznica and

 7     Kraljevo to loot from empty Muslim houses in the town of Zvornik and

 8     neighbouring villages.  Trucks transported these items to Serbia.  Other

 9     detainees worked in Ciglana to make bricks.

10             The beatings resumed in Ciglana.  It is the same group that had

11     been beating the witness in Ekonomija, but they did not come as often.

12     The witness remembers one beating where they were told to strip down to

13     the waist.  Their bodies were inspected for tattoos.  One man had a

14     tattoo on his lower arm.  The witness thinks that it showed a crescent

15     moon and star, and a crescent moon.

16             Pufta told him to have the tattoo removed by morning.  The man

17     tried to burn it off, but it still showed.  Pufta then removed the tattoo

18     with a knife.  Pufta also cut the ear of a detainee named Ismet Cirak.

19     Pufta then killed Cirak.

20             While in Ciglana, a group of people was brought in.  They said

21     they had been detained at Dom Kulture in Celopek and had been tortured

22     there.

23             In mid-July or late July, the witness was transferred to

24     Batkovic.  He stayed there until November 1992 when he was released on a

25     prisoner exchange.

Page 5885

 1             [Interpretation] This is the end of the witness's summary.

 2             On page 10912, I'm told that there is a translation mistake.  I

 3     said "guards did nothing to stop this treatment," and in English it says

 4     "Croats did nothing."  But I said "guards" and not "Croats."

 5             If you may, I can now submit the witness's statement according to

 6     Rule 92 ter.  I gave the usher a small binder with the hearing of this

 7     witness.  And you can also put this on the screen.  This is Exhibit 7190

 8     in the 65 ter list.  I would like to have the Serbian version of the

 9     document, if possible, so that the witness can look at it.

10                           Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

11        Q.   Mr. Kopic, do you remember having been interviewed by an

12     investigator on the July 13 and 14, 1997?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

14     know exactly what is the difference between a statement and a hearing.

15     In French, "declaration" and "audition."  "Interview."

16             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] I will check what word I used.

17     It is a written statement, to be extremely specific.  Maybe I was using

18     generic terms so that the witness would understand them, but this is a

19     written statement I was talking about.

20        Q.   Mr. Kopic, do you remember having provided a written statement to

21     an investigator from this Tribunal in 1997, on July 13 and 14?

22        A.   Yes, I do remember.

23        Q.   Mr. Kopic, you have a binder in front of you, and there's a

24     document also that is displayed on the screen in front of you.  I have

25     three questions to ask.

Page 5886

 1             The document that you see on the screen and which you have a hard

 2     copy of, is this the written statement that you gave to the investigator

 3     of this Tribunal on July 13 and 14, 1997?

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Does this written statement faithfully reflect your

 6     testimony and what you said to the investigator who put the questions to

 7     you at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.  I would like to add something, if I may, to what you said.

 9     May I?

10        Q.   Please go ahead.

11        A.   When you were talking about that, that gentleman who was sexually

12     abused at Ekonomija, I don't know what you consider sexual abuse to be,

13     but he was actually impaled.  He didn't have contact with another person.

14     And after that, he was killed.

15        Q.   Thank you for this detail, useful detail.

16        A.   Ismet Cirak, not Sirak.  I don't know how you write these

17     letters, but in our parts you read this as "Cirak."

18        Q.   Thank you.  This is quite useful.  We'll maybe come back to all

19     this, Mr. Kopic.

20        A.   May I have a pencil so I can make a note here?  I don't want to

21     interrupt you, but I want to be able to go back and correct you if

22     there's a mistake somewhere.  Because it might slip my memory if I don't

23     make a note.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Of course.  My question, Mr. Kopic:  If you were asked the same

25     questions again, would you give the same answers today, if asked the same

Page 5887

 1     questions?

 2        A.   Yes, certainly.  I'm only talking about what I experienced and

 3     what I saw.

 4             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             Your Honour, I would like to tender the written statement, and I

 6     would like an exhibit number, please.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will give a number after we

 8     ask the questions ourselves.

 9             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10             I would now like to display Exhibit 7188 on the 65 ter list.

11     This is a map.

12        Q.   Mr. Kopic, could you, in a very general fashion, tell us exactly

13     what this map represents?  What is the area we see on this map?

14        A.   I see Zvornik, Karakaj, the River Drina here, and the surrounding

15     villages.

16             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honour, I would

17     like to tender this exhibit as evidence, to have a blank map available.

18     It might be very useful for the next witnesses.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have a number, please,

20     Ms. Registrar, for this map.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P358.

22             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Kopic, in your 92 ter statement, you said that you were

24     arrested in Planinci.  Could you please tell us on the map where this is?

25     If you could please place a map -- a cross -- an X on this, and the usher

Page 5888

 1     will help us with the pen.  Could you please place a cross next to

 2     Planinci and circle this cross and number 1.

 3        A.   This is it. [Marks]

 4        Q.   Please place an A, not "1," "A."

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kopic, you also said in your statement that you

 7     were detained in Karakaj at the Ekonomija farm.  Could you please tell --

 8     show on this map where this Ekonomija farm is located in Karakaj, then

 9     place a cross, put a circle around it, and then place a "B" next to this

10     cross.

11        A.   I'll do my best, but I can't pinpoint it precisely, since I never

12     looked at this map in this way.  It's a bird's-eye view.  I think it's

13     somewhere around here, somewhere around here.  [Marks]

14        Q.   Very well.  Could you do exactly the same thing for the brick

15     factory, Ciglana, where you were then taken, so please place a cross with

16     a circle around it, and a "C" next to it.

17        A.   I'll try, I'll do my best.  [Marks]

18             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to

19     tender this.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number,

21     Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P359.

23             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] I would like now to have some

24     information on how to continue.  Maybe Mr. Kopic can take his headset off

25     for a minute.

Page 5889

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kopic, could you please

 2     take off your headset for a minute.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, in 1997 the witness

 4     drew a sketch of the place where he was detained in Karakaj.  I would

 5     like some instructions.  This number has an exhibit -- this sketch has an

 6     exhibit number, and I could display it and so he could recognise it, but

 7     maybe we would rather that the witness draws a new sketch.  I don't know

 8     what you rather -- how to proceed, and I would like your guidance,

 9     please.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you may use the

12     old sketch.  I don't think we need to make a new one.  And ask your

13     questions using that sketch.

14             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15     Mr. Kopic can place his headset back on.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Interpretation] It's the witness who drew the

17     sketch?

18             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, as far as I

19     know.

20             Could I please display Exhibit 2526.  Could we zoom out, please.

21     A little bit more.

22             For your information, there is a translation attached to this in

23     the e-court system.

24        Q.   Mr. Kopic, could you tell us generally what this sketch

25     represents?

Page 5890

 1        A.   Well, I'm no artist, but this is the Ekonomija area where we

 2     spent a few days.

 3        Q.   Very well.  You drew this sketch, and your signature is on the

 4     bottom of the page; is that it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   On the sketch, we see a number of buildings.  Could you tell us

 7     in what building you were detained?  Can we see it on the sketch?

 8        A.   The first building to the right of the entranceway, you can see

 9     the door.  Do you want me to draw something here?

10        Q.   Your words are enough, because we already have a legend, anyway.

11     Thank you.

12             Your Honour, I would like to tender this exhibit, please.  Can we

13     have a number, please?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P360.

16             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

17        Q.   Now, for the next step, I don't have any sketch that is

18     ready-made, but maybe you could put a blank sheet on the ELMO, because I

19     would like the witness to draw the place where he was detained later on

20     in the Ciglana factory, if the usher could please help him.

21             Mr. Kopic, could you please draw a sketch of the place where you

22     were detained in Ciglana?

23        A.   May I ... [Marks]

24             The first thing I drew is the Karakaj-Bijeljina road, and then

25     I'll explain as I go along.

Page 5891

 1             Around here is the entrance to the Ciglana, the brickworks.

 2        Q.   Could you please place an "A" next to the entrance so we remember

 3     that it's the entrance?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   [Marks].  This is the room where we were imprisoned [Indicates]

 7     and this is the door.  Next to the door, there is a window.

 8        Q.   Could you please place a "B" to show the room where you were

 9     detained?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.

12        A.   [Marks].  What I've just drawn was the factory where their

13     products were produced; bricks, roof tiles, I don't know what else.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Please place a "C" there --

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   -- to locate the plant.

17             I would like to tender this sketch as an exhibit.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number,

19     Ms. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P361.

21             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  If we could please

22     keep it for later.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Usher, could you please get the

24     drawing back.

25             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 5892

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Usher, could you please

 2     make a copy of this drawing for Mr. Seselj.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add something?  May I?

 4             There was some other buildings around there which are not so

 5     important.  On the right-hand side of the factory, there was a place

 6     where we loaded concrete products onto trucks and where they beat us if

 7     we were unable to work hard enough.

 8             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you for this detail,

 9     Mr. Kopic.

10        Q.   Mr. Kopic, let's move on to something else and return to your

11     statement.  On page 3 of your written statement in English, you said that

12     you were placed in a room in the Ekonomija farm in Karakaj the day you

13     were arrested, and you say that two hours later, a group of men came in

14     and that they glorified their leader, Vojislav Seselj.  Could you give us

15     some details about this and say what words they said when they were

16     talking about Mr. Seselj.

17        A.   Well, I can't tell you the precise day and time, because it was a

18     long, long time ago.  It was a few hours after our arrival, and when this

19     group came in, one of the guards outside said, "Here come the soldiers."

20     I don't know whether he called them White Eagles or something similar.

21     When they came in, they started beating us with various objects.  They

22     started cursing our president, Alija.  They asked us why we had voted for

23     Alija.  They said we shouldn't have voted for Milosevic either, but for

24     Seselj.  They said Seselj was a wolf.  That's what they said.

25        Q.   How did they describe Mr. Seselj?  Do you remember this?

Page 5893

 1        A.   Well --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, not "wolf," "god."

 3        A.   They said he was a god.  Well, he was a god to them, not to us.

 4             MR. DUTERTRE:

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Kopic, could you tell us who is the person

 6     named Marko Pavlovic ?

 7        A.   I can't be very precise.  I think he was an important person in

 8     Zvornik.  I'm not sure, but on one occasion he came to Ekonomija when

 9     they were separating off those of us who were more fit for work.  I think

10     he was in that group.  I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think he was.

11        Q.   You say "I believe he was there."  What made you believe that he

12     was there?  Did you see him, did you hear his name?

13        A.   I heard one of the guards saying, "Well, Marko will now decide

14     what to do with them," referring to us, the people who were detained with

15     us.

16        Q.   When the guard said this, how far were you from this guard?

17        A.   I can show you that on this sketch.  They were passing in front

18     of the building where we were detained.  We were in a small room inside.

19     It was only about 20 or 25 square metres in area.  And when they were

20     passing by outside, we could hear everything they said.  We didn't dare

21     look at them, but you could hear everything.  You could hear people

22     breathing.  We weren't allowed to make any noise whatsoever, not even to

23     cough, let alone say something.

24        Q.   How did people react, if you were able to see this, when the

25     guard pronounced the name of Marko Pavlovic?

Page 5894

 1        A.   What people are you referring to?

 2        Q.   The people who were guarding you, the military who were guarding

 3     you.  Could you tell me what their reaction was when the name

 4     "Marko Pavlovic" what pronounce, if you were able to see this?

 5        A.   I said we didn't dare look at anything, we only heard things.

 6     But when they came in we would take a look, however, we had to keep our

 7     heads down.  Otherwise, they would beat us.  I didn't know what their

 8     reaction was, but I could hear by the sound of their voice that he was

 9     some sort of superior to them.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Another thing now, Mr. Kopic.  Who is Meco?

11        A.   Meco?

12        Q.   Thank you for the pronunciation.

13        A.   He was a gentleman who used to live in Zvornik before the war,

14     and he was with us at Ekonomija for a while.

15        Q.   What happened to him?

16        A.   I don't know what his real name was.  "Meco" was his nickname.  I

17     can find out and let you know subsequently, if necessary.  But I

18     mentioned the name of Petko Hajdukovic.  It's somewhere in my statement.

19     Petko Hajdukovic and Meco were both from Zvornik.  They used to live

20     there before the war.  Petko would often beat Meco when he came in with a

21     big stick or a rifle-butt.  He beat him a lot.  He would beat him almost

22     until the stick broke.  And then one of those soldiers took him away.

23     After the war, I heard he had been killed somewhere.

24        Q.   Who told you that he had been killed?  How did you get to know

25     this?

Page 5895

 1        A.   I was with many people who knew him, even with his father-in-law

 2     and with friends and neighbours of his, and it was they who told me that

 3     Meco had been killed.  I don't know how he was killed.

 4        Q.   After he had been taken, did you ever see him, as of the moment

 5     he was taken until you learned by his father-in-law that he had been

 6     killed?

 7        A.   I never saw him again.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kopic, who is Muhamed -- I probably don't

 9     pronounce the name correctly, so please correct it for me.

10        A.   As for the name "Muhamed," I'm not sure whether it's "Muhamed" or

11     "Hamo."  That was a nickname.  That was a lad who was brought to where we

12     were in the Ciglana, that room I sketched.  When they brought in a group

13     of people, there were hundreds of people there, a Serb who was a

14     neighbour of his tried to save this young man.  He brought him to us, so

15     he stayed with us for a certain time, and later on -- well, first a group

16     was brought from the direction of Sapna, of Bijeljina, towards Karakaj on

17     the left-hand side.  Later, when they were going back in these buses, one

18     of the soldiers came to get Muhammad and he got him on the truck, and

19     they drove off.

20        Q.   You mentioned the group of people in buses.  Could you be a bit

21     more specific?  We'll take this one step at a time.  Who were the people

22     on the buses that you just mentioned?

23        A.   That lad who was with us, he said those people from Sapna,

24     Bijeli Potok, Djulici, those villages, there were about 700 of them, and

25     when they were taking these people somewhere in buses, they stopped the

Page 5896

 1     buses to get Muhammad in, and we saw them sitting in the buses with their

 2     heads down.  And all these groups I mentioned, the names that are in my

 3     statement, we saw them being beaten and cursed at.  This was very close

 4     to where we were in that Ciglana, and you could see what was going on up

 5     there on the road.

 6        Q.   So at the time, could you tell us where exactly you were?  On

 7     which road were the buses that you just mentioned?

 8        A.   Well, the sketch I made just a minute ago, when we were in

 9     Ciglana, you know, we were in a room, and there was a window facing the

10     Karakaj-Bijeljina road.  We were inside that room which I sketched.

11        Q.   Very well.  And the buses were on the road; is this what you

12     said?  Did I understand you correctly?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   How long did the buses stay on this road?

15        A.   I'm not sure.  Maybe 15, 20 minutes.

16        Q.   Do you know why they stopped in that exact location?

17        A.   I think they stopped to pick up that lad who was with us, and

18     maybe for some other reasons, but none that I know.

19        Q.   You say "that young man."  Do you mean Hamo or this other person

20     we mentioned a moment ago?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22        Q.   And who was escorting these people on the bus?  Were you able to

23     see who it was?

24        A.   Well, there were all sorts of soldiers there, some dressed in

25     camouflage, some in civilian clothes.  Among them were those groups that

Page 5897

 1     I mentioned in my statements, during the escort.

 2        Q.   When you talk about the groups you mentioned in your statement,

 3     could you repeat this, please?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.  These two groups from Serbia, those from Loznica and

 5     from Kraljevo.  When I'm saying "those from Kraljevo," that's how we

 6     referred to them, although they had not introduced themselves to us.

 7     Really, only some of them said they had been from Kraljevo.  The other

 8     ones, since they were called "Nis" people, they must have been from Nis,

 9     and they forced us to sing one song, "Fire is blazing above Kraljevo,

10     let's see which Chetnik is missing," and they were mentioning somebody

11     named Igor.

12        Q.   Thank you for having specified this.  If you were able to see,

13     how did the guards behave vis a vis the people on the buses?

14        A.   Those people on the bus, the detainees, a couple of people -- a

15     couple of men would get in and beat them.  Now, from the distance of 50

16     metres, I wasn't able to see who exactly was doing that, but mainly those

17     groups from Serbia, Kraljevo, Loznica, and Petko was among them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What was the attitude of those people who were being

19     beaten on the buses?  Could you describe this to us, please.

20        A.   Do you mean the victims?

21        Q.   Yes.

22        A.   Well, what could they do?  They kept their heads down.  You could

23     barely see.  They looked miserable.  They looked awful to me.

24        Q.   After about 15 to 20 minutes, you said they stayed there for 15

25     or 20 minutes, in what direction did these buses go after that, if you

Page 5898

 1     know?

 2        A.   Right.  Well, they set off from Karakaj, then turned off towards

 3     Bijeljina.  However, there are many turnoffs from Bijeljina, so I don't

 4     know where they ended up.  I was only able to watch them for a hundred

 5     metres or so, and then I don't know where they continued.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             I have no further question, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Mr. Prosecutor [as interpreted], I have a whole series of

10     questions to put to you that are of a different nature.  First of all, we

11     will go back in time a little.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your written statement, you

14     mentioned that before the war, before the conflict erupted, you were a

15     truck driver.  According to you, when did the conflict start, exactly?

16        A.   In Bosnia, the conflict erupted in the beginning of April, it

17     seems to me.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when the conflict began at

19     the beginning of April, were you a truck driver then?

20        A.   No.  I'm a driver for all categories of motor vehicles.  I used

21     to drive some trips engaged by certain people occasionally.  Sometimes I

22     did work as a waiter.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the conflict began, you

24     mentioned in your written statement that you went to Kula Grad to join

25     the resistance.  This is very ambiguous.  Were you incorporated into the

Page 5899

 1     Territorial Defence or not?

 2        A.   First of all, they put me on the reserve force of the police,

 3     when we had a mixed police force between Serbs and Bosnian Muslims.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're making progress, because

 5     this is something which was not mentioned in your statement.

 6             So you were then incorporated into the mixed police force; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You had a uniform and a weapon?

10        A.   Yes, what I was issued by the police force.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who told you to go to

12     Kula Grad?

13        A.   Well, many men went there from Kalesija, and I, since I worked

14     Zvornik, I was frequently there.  My mother is from Zvornik, and I heard

15     from her what's going on, and I went up there with a couple of other men,

16     but I wouldn't like to mention their names for their own safety.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was there any fighting in

18     Kula Grad between the Serbian and Croatian warring factions?

19        A.   Kula is populated 100 per cent by Muslims.  I have both friends

20     and family there.  I don't know what Serbs from Serbia especially were

21     looking for there.  So I felt it incumbent upon me, as a member of my

22     ethnic group and a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to go there and

23     help my country and my people.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your ethnic group?  You

25     are a Muslim, aren't you?

Page 5900

 1             In Kula Grad, was there any fighting, was there any shots fired,

 2     were there any casualties, people wounded and killed?

 3        A.   I think so, some people were even killed, because as I told you,

 4     Kula had a 100 per cent Muslim population, and when the Chetniks captured

 5     that area, those Bosniaks who could do it in time fled.  Others were

 6     killed.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This means I can now put to you

 8     a question on the way in which you were arrested.

 9             You were part of a group of 30 people, and you were going to the

10     village of Planinci.  This group of people, you were wearing civilian

11     clothes, you were wearing camouflage clothing, were you armed?  Please

12     tell us more about this.

13        A.   I was in civilian clothes.  I know that for certain.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were wearing plain clothes.

15     Could you tell us what you were wearing?  Did you have a coat?  Did you

16     have a wallet on you?  What were you wearing on that day, and what did

17     you have on you?

18        A.   I was wearing jeans, running shoes, a jacket.  I had no weapons

19     whatsoever.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were arrested, did

21     those people who arrested you search you?

22        A.   Yes, yes, they did.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They searched you from head to

24     foot, did they?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5901

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, please tell me, then, how

 2     is it that a long time afterwards you had 700 Deutsche mark on you which

 3     you were able to give Pivarski?

 4        A.   I had bank notes hidden in my underwear.  They frisked us when

 5     they searched us, but they didn't really make us take off our underwear.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you had hidden your Deutsche

 7     mark in your underpants; is that right?  You weren't properly searched,

 8     in other words?

 9        A.   That's all I could hide, paper.  Everything else, they took away.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time you were searched,

11     things were taken off you, I don't know, a watch, a ring?

12        A.   Correct.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm putting this question to

14     you because, as you had 700 Deutsche mark on you, this does raise a

15     question, and you are giving us an explanation which is worth what it's

16     worth.  But you are telling us that you hid these 700 Deutsche mark on

17     you.  700 Deutsche mark is quite a lot of money.  Where did this money

18     come from?

19        A.   Well, my family was not totally poor.  It was enough to sell a

20     calf [Realtime transcript read in error "car"] to have that amount of

21     money, if you were living in a village.  I don't think you should

22     confused by that.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, a calf, not a car.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The group monitoring you in

25     Planinci, you said there were 12 of them.  You said there was people who

Page 5902

 1     were wearing civilian clothes and policemen, and as you were part of the

 2     reserve unit, you were able to recognise these people.  Under whose

 3     authority were these people who arrested you?

 4        A.   Those of us who were arrested were 12, but I wasn't able to count

 5     those people who arrested us.  At that spot where they stopped us, there

 6     were perhaps five or six of them.  When we came down to the village,

 7     there were many more of them, but they were wearing police uniforms, too.

 8     They had a blue uniform, a cap, and on that cap they had a tri-colour

 9     emblem, red, blue and white, instead of the five-pointed star the police

10     used to have before on their caps.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to you, whose

12     authority were they under?  Did they report to the army, the police, the

13     civilian/municipal authorities?  Who were these people who arrested you?

14        A.   This man, Cevap, whom I mentioned in my statement, he was in a

15     police uniform.  There were others who were in camouflage or military

16     olive green-grey uniform.  However, they told us immediately to keep our

17     heads down.  They searched us, they felled us to the ground and tied our

18     hands.  They were wearing all sorts of uniforms, carrying all sorts of

19     rifles and weapons.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At one point in time, you were

21     taken to the village of Vidovici, and there there were three people whom

22     you recognised:  Dusan, Cevap and Cizmo.  I apologise for the

23     pronunciation.  Who are these three individuals who you recognised?

24        A.   Those two, Cevap and Dusan, they were from that area, from

25     Grbavica, Vidovici.  That's all one area.  Cevap is perhaps two years

Page 5903

 1     older than I am, also works in catering, and Dusan, too.  And the older

 2     man, who was nicknamed Cizmo, I think his real name was Milorad, he was a

 3     farmer.  His property was next to my mother's, so I knew them.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These people whom you knew and

 5     who were there, what were they wearing, military clothes, camouflage

 6     uniforms?  What were they doing there?

 7        A.   Cevap and the other one, Dusan, they were in military uniform.

 8     Others, Cizmo, for instance, only had the military shirt on, the olive

 9     green-grey one, and he had a rifle in his hand.  I can't tell you exactly

10     which kind of rifle.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you had done your

12     military service together with Dusan, did you talk to him at all?

13        A.   You mean at that moment when we were captured?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

15        A.   No, we said nothing.  He just stood there, carrying his rifle.

16     But you have to remember that it was all 15 years ago.  I cannot give you

17     the details anymore.  I remember the faces and the most important things.

18     I cannot forget that.  In small things, in small details, I can be off

19     the mark here and there.  I know that those were the people.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your statement, you say that

21     you were tied by the policeman, your hands were tied, and then you were

22     taken to Zvornik.  The policeman didn't have any handcuffs.  Usually a

23     policeman doesn't have a rope to tie up people's hands.  How were you

24     tied up?

25        A.   Rope.  They got hold of some rope and tied our hands.  There were

Page 5904

 1     three or four policemen around.  I don't know if a single one of them had

 2     handcuffs, because they were standing on a road which the Muslims used to

 3     go to Tuzla.  So maybe for those occasions, they had lengths of rope on

 4     them.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were these civilian or military

 6     policemen?

 7        A.   These were civilian.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was commanding this group,

 9     the policemen, the military?

10        A.   I think by the time they took us to Zvornik, before they took us

11     to Zvornik, I think it was the policeman I mentioned.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are taken to the SUP

13     building.  What is the SUP?  You mentioned the policemen.  I heard about

14     the MUP, but what is the SUP?  Maybe it's the same thing.  I don't know.

15        A.   It's the same thing.  It was also called "police station."

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are taken to this

17     building, where you're going to be questioned; yes or no?

18        A.   Yes.  First they placed us in some sort of garage that was

19     locked, and then there were stairs from that garage that led upstairs to

20     a room in which they interrogated us.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When they were questioning you,

22     what kind of questions did they put to you?

23        A.   Where we were from, why we were there, why we were Muslims.

24     I think one of them pulled out a gun at one point and said, "Why don't

25     you switch sides and become one of us?"  I didn't know what to answer.

Page 5905

 1     And then they said, "Let's be off with you, and may God help you,"

 2     something like that.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Seemingly, among the policemen

 4     there's someone called Boja?

 5        A.   Yes.  He had been a policeman even before the war, and I believe

 6     at that time he had a higher position than a simple policeman.  He was

 7     some sort of commanding officer, something like that.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He was a head of the police

 9     station in this building or not?

10        A.   He must have been some sort of officer, possibly a commanding

11     officer.  He did have some sort of higher rank.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After that, you are taken to

13     the Ekonomija farm; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you showed us the layout of

16     the place.  You drew this sketch, and this is what I'm interested in.

17     This goes to the heart of the matter.  What I've just talked about is

18     only a starter.  We are now addressing the heart of the matter.

19             Now, let me sum up.  You are a Muslim fighter in Kula.  You go

20     off with a group.  You are stopped and arrested by some people,

21     policemen, amongst others, who question you, and then you are taken to a

22     detention centre, which is Ekonomija farm.  What I'm interested in is

23     this:  Who was guarding you when you were there?  If need be, what

24     connection was there with the accused?  Under whose authority were you

25     detained in this farm?  According to you, who was guarding the place?

Page 5906

 1        A.   I think those were reserve soldiers, older -- they were not young

 2     men, they were 40ish, 50ish.  They were wearing military uniforms, olive

 3     green-grey.  They had rifles and they secured the building when the other

 4     groups that I mentioned in my statement were absent.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you say part of the reserve

 6     unit.  You mean the reserve unit of the JNA?

 7        A.   A man of 40, 50, was no longer a regular soldier in our parts at

 8     that time.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You, yourself, did your

10     military service in the JNA in 1985 and 1986 in Zagreb; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These are reservists who are

13     guarding the place; is that right?  Were these people armed and were they

14     wearing uniforms?

15        A.   Yes.  As I said, they were in uniform and they had weapons.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since they were guarding the

17     place, you yourself could not move around freely and you couldn't escape.

18     We agree on that, don't we?

19        A.   Of course.  We were not even free to go to the lavatory until we

20     asked for their approval, and then we would go there and get beaten on

21     the way.  We would go one by one to the lavatory and go back in.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you were detained there,

23     did you have the feeling -- of course, this goes back some time, this was

24     more than 15 years ago.  I know it's difficult to remember, but did you

25     feel that in this location there was a head, there was a commander of

Page 5907

 1     some sort, or was it total chaos?

 2        A.   There was somebody who ruled, although there was some chaos as

 3     well.  I just don't know who it was who ruled.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Someone was in charge, could

 5     you tell us who this was or didn't you know?

 6        A.   I don't know who exactly, in particular, was in charge.  I know

 7     there were those two groups from Serbia.  In one group, Major Toro and

 8     Pivarski were the men in charge.  In the other group, I don't know, they

 9     were separate.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're getting close to the

11     core issues.  He told us that you were beaten -- you were detained, you

12     were beaten up.  I'm not going into this in any detail, because it's not

13     the purpose of the questions I'm putting to you.  My question is:  Who

14     beat you up, who was heading this, who was in charge, who was

15     responsible?  Seemingly, there is a group who comes.  This is the

16     so-called Kraljevo group.  You mentioned a few names, Toro, Zoks, Pufta,

17     Savo and Repak.  You mentioned nicknames and names.  And this small group

18     of individuals is not the same as the group of people guarding the place;

19     is that right?

20        A.   Yes, they did not guard the building.  They came to fetch us when

21     they were about to beat us.  However, there were other men whose names I

22     don't remember who would sometimes come together with them.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they came to beat you up.

24     Where did they come from?  Were these locals, did they come from Zvornik?

25     Where did they come from?  Or perhaps they lived there.  Where did they

Page 5908

 1     come from?

 2        A.   I don't know how to answer that question.  They would just come

 3     through the door.  I don't know where they're coming from, from which

 4     direction, from which road.  We had no contact with the outside world.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They'd come on foot, by

 6     bicycle, on horseback, they'd come by car, in a truck?  According to you,

 7     how did they get there?

 8        A.   Well, you could hear the sound of a car when they were coming,

 9     when we were in the Ekonomija farm.  In the Ciglana, in the brickworks,

10     we could see them in cars through the windows.  Cupo would sometimes come

11     on a motorcycle.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, did you feel that the sole

13     purpose of their coming was to beat you up, or did they come to check

14     that you had no more money on you, no more gold, no more valuables which

15     they wanted to take off you, or did they only come to beat you up?

16        A.   Well, to begin with, while we were at the Ekonomija farm, they

17     only came to beat us.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us how they were

19     equipped?  Were they well equipped, ill equipped?  What was it like?

20        A.   They were very well-equipped.  They had camouflage uniforms, they

21     had two or three guns -- pistols apiece, they had automatic rifles.  They

22     had even truncheons to beat people with.  For a while, Toro carried

23     around a baseball bat.  Their uniforms were quite nice.  Special

24     equipment, I would say.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They were particularly

Page 5909

 1     well-equipped.  What were they wearing on their heads, a beret?  What did

 2     they have on their heads?

 3        A.   Well, as for headgear, I'm not sure everyone wore something on

 4     their heads.  They were bare-headed most of the time, because it was

 5     warm, but sometimes they would wear berets.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is a crucial question now.

 7     Did you see, at any point in time, did you see an insignia on these

 8     people?

 9        A.   I don't know what kind of insignia.  Rank insignia or a badge?

10     What?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Insignia.  I'm not talking

12     about ranks, I'm talking about insignia.  I'll show you three.

13             I'd like to ask the Registrar to put page 109, 110 and 111 on the

14     ELMO, please.

15             Please show page 109 first.  This is an insignia.  Did you see an

16     insignia looking like this?

17        A.   Yes, they did have some signs, but I can't remember now what they

18     were exactly.  I can't be precise, but they did have some on their

19     shoulders, on their arms here, up here [indicates].  But not all of them

20     had them, and it was a long time ago, a long time ago.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We now show you the next page,

22     page 110.  This is another insignia.

23        A.   I've already said they had something, but I can't be specific.  I

24     can't say what exactly.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Next page, 111.  It

Page 5910

 1     doesn't ring a bell?

 2        A.   Well, I did see -- I saw all these, but I can't say exactly where

 3     and when.  All this is known to me.  I was in the camp in Karakaj,

 4     Batkovic and so on, but I can't be specific and say this one had that

 5     sign and the other one had the other sign.  It was a long time ago.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I've just shown you

 7     three insignias potentially allocated to the White Eagles.  In your

 8     written statement, you mentioned that they belonged to the White Eagles,

 9     that these people belonged to the White Eagles.  I've shown you three

10     insignias.  Had you seen them either there or elsewhere or are you seeing

11     them for the first time today?

12        A.   No, I'm not looking at them for the first time today.  I did see

13     this insignia, and I heard the White Eagles come to the door.  They would

14     comment with the guards, and then the guards would say -- or when there

15     was somebody at the door, they would say, "Well, the White Eagles are

16     coming now."

17             THE INTERPRETER:  That's what the guards would say.

18     Interpreter's correction.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll get the document back.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am familiar with this.  I do know

21     these emblems and I can read what it says on them.  But as I say, so much

22     time has gone by, and let me repeat that, I can't say that Zoks had this

23     one and the other one had the other one, but they certainly did have

24     insignia on them of some sort.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You just said

Page 5911

 1     something very important.  A guard told you, "The White Eagles are coming

 2     now."  You remember that?  So these individuals who came and who were

 3     well equipped, armed, and you told us that some of them had an insignia,

 4     you believe that these were the White Eagles?

 5        A.   The men who came had some insignia, and the guard said that the

 6     White Eagles would come.  Now, whether they were actually the White

 7     Eagles, I can't say, because they didn't introduce themselves and say,

 8     "We're the White Eagles."  When they beat us, they swore at us and

 9     glorified Seselj and that kind of thing.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm gradually

11     reaching the heart of the matter.

12             You said that when these individuals arrived, they allegedly told

13     you, "Why didn't you vote?"  They were extremely hostile towards

14     Milosevic, and seemingly, when answering the Prosecutor, you said that

15     they mentioned Mr. Seselj.  Let's go back in time.

16             In 1992, when you were a reserve policeman, had you ever heard

17     the name of Mr. Seselj?

18        A.   Yes, through the media.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My fellow Judge is

20     telling me that it's time for the break, so we will take a break, and we

21     will resume with the questions after this 20-minute break.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.05 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just before the break,

25     I was putting questions to you about Mr. Seselj, and I asked you to go

Page 5912

 1     back in time.  I asked you whether you had heard about Mr. Seselj, and

 2     you said, "Yes."  Could you please tell the Bench when you heard the name

 3     of Mr. Seselj, and could you tell us who Mr. Seselj was for you, before

 4     the conflict started?

 5        A.   Well, I said that I heard the name before the conflict in the

 6     media, and then later on in the camp from the groups I mentioned, they

 7     glorified him and would say that he would -- that he was God and things

 8     like that to them.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You say "in the

10     media."  At the time, did you have a radio, television, did you buy

11     newspapers?  How did you obtain your information?

12        A.   Well, watching television, the news on television.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And on the TV news, they were

14     mentioning Mr. Seselj?

15        A.   Yes, because in 19 -- well, before the conflict in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you had the battlefield in Croatia, so the media

17     would explain what was going on there.  And on a couple of occasions, I

18     heard that name mentioned, too.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The television that you could

20     watch on your TV set, was it the Belgrade Television, Sarajevo

21     Television, or Zagreb Television?

22        A.   Mostly Sarajevo.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In the Ekonomija

24     farm, we have these individuals which are called the White Eagles by one

25     of the guards, and you say that these individuals were glorifying

Page 5913

 1     Mr. Seselj, saying that he was a god.  If you remember, could you give us

 2     some additional information on this?

 3        A.   Well, I don't know what to tell you.  They glorified that name

 4     and beat us, and it was assumed that he was their god and, therefore,

 5     their leader.  That's how those of us who were incarcerated thought.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that

 7     because they glorified Mr. Seselj, you assumed that this group may have a

 8     connection with him?

 9        A.   Well, of course.  The only person they glorified was him, so who

10     would be their leader?  They didn't glorify any other person.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That was the first

12     group.  And then there was another group coming from Loznica.  Who were

13     these people?

14        A.   Well, I named a few names.  They were some sort of reserve,

15     perhaps police force.  They were armed nicely, well equipped, and both

16     groups -- well, how shall I put this?  People -- they appeared to me to

17     be like people from the street who were full of anger and wanted to

18     express it.  They didn't leave the impression of being different.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Loznica group, in your

20     written statement you mentioned three people, and I apologise in advance

21     for the pronunciation.  Cupo, Brko and Rogonja or something like that.

22        A.   Yes, that's right.  Rogonja, he got the nickname before the war.

23     He worked in a cafe in Loznica or near Loznica in Serbia.  As for Cupo

24     and Brko, we gave them those nicknames.  Cupo had longer hair and Brko

25     had a moustache, so we chose the nicknames accordingly to reflect that.

Page 5914

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  These people who

 2     came from Loznica, according to you, were they under the authority of the

 3     army, of the civilian police, of the military police, or of some

 4     unidentified group?  What can you tell us about them?

 5        A.   Well, they were all sorts.  Some wore reserve military uniforms,

 6     other wore police uniforms.  Cupo had some sort of camouflage uniform,

 7     military, but certain individuals wore police uniforms, you see,

 8     depending on how they were equipped, what group they belonged to, who

 9     issued them with this equipment.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These two groups would come in

11     to beat you up.  I mean, at least the guards had to agree with them.

12     Otherwise, they would not have let them in.  What can you tell us about

13     this?

14        A.   On the contrary, I think the guards were just there to prevent us

15     from leaving the premises.  But when they turned up, they did whatever

16     they liked, and I don't think the guards could influence them at all.

17     That was my impression, anyway.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your written statement,

19     there is a brief episode about the Novi Sad TV, who came to film you.

20     Could you tell us exactly what happened?

21        A.   That was while we were at the Ekonomija.  They arrived, one with

22     a camera and one of the journalists, and before that, before they came in

23     and activated the cameras and microphones, they told us -- we were told

24     that we were going to be filmed and that we would make statements, but

25     that we were not allowed to say that anybody beat us or behaved badly

Page 5915

 1     towards us.  And they told us to say that we were some paramilitary units

 2     and things like that and that we were fine there.  So they prepared us

 3     for what we should say.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You, yourself, were

 5     filmed, and you also made a statement?

 6        A.   Yes, they did film us.  I don't know what we said.  The filming

 7     lasted a few minutes, and later on I heard that they broadcast this over

 8     Television Novi Sad and that they said that they had captured the

 9     Muslim Green Berets and things along those lines.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And did you say a

11     few words on the microphone?

12        A.   I did say something, but I don't remember exactly what.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the Green Berets, you

14     did not belong to the Green Berets?

15        A.   No.  I think that that formation, the Green Berets, didn't

16     actually exist in the area that I lived in, I think.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have two other

18     questions regarding Niski and Pivarski.

19             I carefully listened to your answers to the Prosecutor.  You said

20     that you believed that Niski came from Nis.  You recognised his accent,

21     and I was very interested by this.  I would like to ask you the following

22     question:

23             In your own region at the time, you were able to recognise where

24     a person came from just by listening to this person's accent?

25        A.   Well, yes.  In the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were a lot

Page 5916

 1     of different accents and dialects, and that's the case in Serbia, too.

 2     You can differentiate between people's accents.  In Sarajevo, for

 3     example, although the same language is spoken, the accent is a bit

 4     different, and you can distinguish people from various parts of Serbia

 5     based on their accent as well.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This group from

 7     Kraljevo, Toro and the others, did they also have an accent that could

 8     make it possible to recognise them and to say that they came from

 9     Kraljevo?

10        A.   Well, they had the typical Serbian type of accent.  That's what

11     I think.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the group from Loznica?

13        A.   I think they had a similar accent.  Well, I don't know their

14     accents specifically.  I know that in Vojvodina, they tend to draw out

15     their syllables whereas in Nis, for example, in my opinion, they speak a

16     little faster and swallow some of the syllables but they are fairly

17     similar.  I don't live there but I go to Serbia from time to time.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the written statement, you

19     mention Pivarski at one point in time, and you say that he came from

20     Vukovar.  What did you base that on, that he came from Vukovar?

21        A.   Well, he told me that personally, that he was from Vukovar.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to you, why did he

23     come from Vukovar to the Zvornik area?

24        A.   Well, I think that at one point he told me that he and Niski were

25     at the battle front in Vukovar at one time and that then they crossed

Page 5917

 1     over into Bosnia.  I don't exactly know why, but that was the story he

 2     told me.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  One question before

 4     last.

 5             In your written statement, you talk about how Pufta killed Cirak.

 6     You describe what happened.  Through your detention, how many people were

 7     killed?

 8        A.   I saw three killings.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With your own eyes?

10        A.   I saw three dead men with my own eyes.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.  At the end

12     of the questions asked by the Prosecutor, you said that later on you were

13     freed during a prisoner exchange.  Within this prisoner exchange, were

14     these -- was this an exchange of war prisoners, or were civilians

15     exchanged for civilians, or were civilians exchanged for military

16     soldiers?  Do you know anything about this?

17        A.   I was exchanged on the 24th of November, 1992, in a place called

18     Satorovici.  I was in Batkovici, where there were about 1.600 of us, and

19     we were visited by the International Red Cross at one point.  And whether

20     they organised the exchange, I don't know.  We were in the camp, most of

21     us were civilians there, you know, and on the opposite, too.  When the

22     exchange took place, we just went one way and the others went the other,

23     in the opposite way, and they were all dressed in civilian clothes, all

24     of us on both sides.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After the war, after 1995, did

Page 5918

 1     you register as a veteran in order to be granted a veteran's pension or

 2     did you decide not to register?

 3        A.   Yes, I was registered as a combatant of the BH Army.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were freed on November

 5     24th, 1992.  After this, did you join the ABiH?  What did you do after

 6     you were freed?

 7        A.   First of all, I underwent treatment for several months, and then

 8     I went to the army, BH Army.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And which corps or which

10     brigade were you --

11        A.   3rd Corps, 28th Division.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I believe my fellow

13     Judges have questions to put to you also.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have just one question.

15             Except from the fact that you heard the people who were beating

16     you talk about Seselj, were glorifying Seselj, and asked you to vote for

17     Seselj, did you ever hear from either the people who were beating you or

18     by others that they were Seseljevci?

19        A.   Do you mean the people from Kraljevo, that they were Seselj's

20     men, or whether his units existed at all?  I don't really understand the

21     question.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No.  I'm asking you whether the

23     people who were beating you up, those from Kraljevo or Loznica, did you

24     ever hear them say -- or did you ever hear others say about them that

25     they were Seselj's men, Seseljevci?

Page 5919

 1        A.   Well, that's what they said themselves, and I said that in my

 2     statement and a moment ago, that they would swear to Seselj and said that

 3     we should vote for him and that they sung his praises and things like

 4     that.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We must be very specific,

 6     we must obtain very specific answers.  Maybe it's my fault.  I did not

 7     ask you whether these people were glorifying Seselj.  You said this, this

 8     is clear, they glorified Seselj and they said that you were to vote for

 9     Seselj.  Fine.

10        A.   Not that we had to vote, but that we should have voted for him.

11     I apologise.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute.  You, except for

13     the statements here, you only mentioned people who were glorifying Seselj

14     and who allegedly would have told you that you should vote for him.  So

15     far, this is all you've told us about Seselj here.  Now, I would like to

16     know the following:  Regarding these people who were beating you up, have

17     you ever heard either them or others say that they were Seseljevci, which

18     means Seselj's men, that they were Seselj's volunteers?

19        A.   I'm not quite sure that they, themselves, said that they were his

20     men, but they did speak about him, said all the best about him, sung his

21     praises.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Kopic.  I also have just a few

24     questions for you, and my questions relate to the distinction between the

25     various groups that came to beat you in the Ekonomija factory.

Page 5920

 1             You have told us about the group from Loznica.  You have told us

 2     about the group from Kraljevo.  And you also told us at a certain point

 3     of a group of White Eagles.  First of all, just to be sure, the group

 4     from Kraljevo, were they the White Eagles that you spoke about or are we

 5     talking about two different groups?

 6        A.   They were two groups, the Loznica and the Kraljevo group, but

 7     this lot belonged to the Kraljevo group.  At least that's what people

 8     said.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  So the White Eagles who came to beat you

10     at a certain moment, they were, in your understanding, members of the

11     Kraljevo group; is that correct?

12        A.   They were from Kraljevo, that first group that came to beat us.

13     Well, that's how they introduced themselves, that's what they said, which

14     does not mean that there was not somebody that might have been from

15     Belgrade or Nis amongst them.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly.  I want

17     to find out if the group from Kraljevo is one and the same group as the

18     group that you have referred to as the White Eagles.

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Another question relates to the

21     visits that you had from the ICRC in the Batkovic detention, and my

22     question is:  Were you given a chance to talk to the members of the ICRC

23     in private and individually or were you speaking to the ICRC

24     representatives in groups, and were there some of the guards present

25     during the interviews?

Page 5921

 1        A.   When they came to visit us, the International Red Cross, in front

 2     of the hangar there was a tent where there was a bench, where we sat, and

 3     they registered us then.  And right behind the tent, so through the

 4     canvass, were the Serb soldiers who were guards there.  So quite possibly

 5     they could hear everything we talked about.  However, when they were

 6     supposed to come and visit us, and the first time they came and in future

 7     as well, they would always set aside the minors and the elderly from that

 8     camp, Batkovici, and they would take them to some forest to hide them

 9     there.  So when they would leave, they would bring these people back to

10     the hangar.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So the ICRC never saw the children and the

12     elderly?

13        A.   I don't think so, because they took the children off and then

14     I think for a time they let them go to Bijeljina, to some relatives or

15     friends.  And later on I heard that some of them were transported across

16     Hungary to some other countries, to some third countries, the children

17     who were under age and the more elderly.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.  Just to get back to my question relating

19     to the interviews with the ICRC:  Were you taken to the tent individually

20     or in groups?

21        A.   One by one.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just to finish it off, one last

24     question that does not have to do with the facts but rather to procedural

25     matters.

Page 5922

 1             After the Washington Agreements in 1995 and the peace, could you

 2     tell us in what circumstances you were contacted to testify for the OTP?

 3     I would like to know whether you contacted them, yourself, or whether one

 4     day your phone rang and an investigator from the OTP called you in order

 5     to meet up with you.  Could you tell us exactly what happened?

 6        A.   I first gave statements when I came there from the camp, Kalesija

 7     and Tuzla, and then later on somebody called me up and said some of the

 8     internationals would come, for me to give statements.  So it wasn't me,

 9     personally, who asked for that, but I didn't decline.  I agreed to

10     cooperate when they came.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were interviewed by the

12     OTP in these circumstances.  Very well.

13             Another question now.  At any point in time, were you contacted

14     by the secret services of your own country, who would have prepared you

15     for possible testimonies or future interviews?

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I believe that I

24     was right to ask questions.

25             You went to Belgrade.  We're going to have to redact this.  This


Page 5923

 1     is in line with what we said earlier.  And I think we should move to

 2     private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5924











11 Page 5924 redacted. Private session.















Page 5925

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             The Judges are finished with their questions, and now they turn

13     to Mr. Seselj and they would like to know whether he wishes to

14     cross-examine the witness or not.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any redirect?

18             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] No additional questions,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

21             Mr. Kopic, on behalf of my fellow Judges, I'd like to thank you

22     for having come to The Hague to testify, and we wish you the best for

23     your return in your own country.

24             I would now like the usher should escort the witness out of the

25     courtroom.

Page 5926

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.  I wish you success

 2     in your work.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have an oral decision that

 5     needs to be made.  It's a bit lengthy, but we have plenty of time for

 6     once.

 7             Oral decision on lifting the confidentiality of the transcript of

 8     April 1st, 2008.

 9             Noting the oral motion made by the accused on April 2nd, 2008, in

10     view of lifting the confidentiality of excerpts of the transcript of

11     April 1st, 2008, noting that the Trial Chamber considers that the

12     confidentiality of the excerpts mentioned hereunder may be lifted because

13     they did not make it possible to identify the protected witness who

14     testified on April 1st and 2nd, 2008, and I will say exactly what pages

15     and lines are involved.  Page 5541, lines 6 to 23; page 5542, line 21, to

16     page 5544, line 24; page 5545, lines 14 to 25; page 5546, lines 13 to 24;

17     page 5553, line 14, to page 5554, line 2; page 5554, line 7, to

18     page 5556, line 9; page 5556, line 20, to page 5562, line 17; page 5569,

19     line 14, to page 5571, line 12; page 5571, line 17, to page 5571, line

20     18; page 5580, line 11, to page 5581, line 4; page 5569, line 12, to

21     page 5590, line 17; and, finally, the last page, 5597, line 20, to

22     page 5598, line 11.

23             This was a bit lengthy, but it had to be done.  These pages are

24     the French transcript.  We have to say this so there's no errors.  I

25     mentioned the pages for the French transcript and not for the English

Page 5927

 1     transcript.

 2             Mr. Prosecutor.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, after the hearing of

 4     Witness Kopic, could we please have an exhibit number for the witness

 5     statement, according to Rule 92 ter?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 7     continues] ... as you read.  Could we please have a number for

 8     Mr. Kopic's witness statement?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 362.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move back to private

11     session for a couple of minutes, because the Trial Chamber must issue

12     another decision, and this time confidentially.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 5928











11 Pages 5928-5938 redacted. Private session.















Page 5939

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

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 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In open session, tomorrow we

15     have a witness who has been scheduled, but for administrative reasons

16     this witness was unable to come today.  Had he been here today, we could

17     have started his testimony today, but we cannot, and we will start his

18     testimony tomorrow.

19             Unfortunately, we might not be able to finish his testimony

20     tomorrow because we have planned two hours for the Prosecution, as part

21     of the examination-in-chief, and Mr. Seselj will also have two hours.

22     Since more often than not time is wasted because of procedural issues, it

23     would be quite remarkable if we would be able to finish tomorrow, but we

24     have planned two hours for the Prosecution.  If the Prosecution only has

25     an hour, hour and a half, then we might be able to make it.  But that

Page 5940

 1     would only be if no procedural issues are raised, which are time-wasting.

 2             If the Prosecution actually has all of its time and if there is

 3     any redirect, the witness will then have to stay on until next week, and

 4     I don't see how we could do otherwise.

 5             Whatever the case may be, we are quite sure that this witness is

 6     coming tomorrow.

 7             And as far as the following week is concerned, the week after

 8     that, I had rather that the issue of upcoming witnesses be settled at the

 9     beginning of the hearing, rather than addressing this at 25 minutes past

10     6.00 or 20 minutes past 1.00, when it is time to adjourn.

11             Mr. Mundis, are there any issues concerning next week?  Will

12     there be any difficulties?  What is it to be?

13             MR. MUNDIS:  As of right now, there are no difficulties,

14     Mr. President.  One must always wait and see what transpires over the

15     course of the next few days.  But as of right now, there are no

16     anticipated problems with the schedule for next week.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             Mr. Seselj, in light of cells transfer, because there is work

19     underway in the detention centre, have all the issues been settled, in

20     other words, the ones you mentioned to us last time?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The problems cannot be settled

22     until these works are over.  It will take about three weeks, 21 days,

23     perhaps until the end of this month.  I just got two additional cells,

24     and all my documents are placed there in boxes.  I'm not going to unpack

25     the boxes at all.  It's impossible to unpack them and sort them out,

Page 5941

 1     because there are no shelves or anything.  So just the boxes are stored

 2     there, but I have the documents here for the next two witnesses, for next

 3     week and the week after, and unless the witnesses are replaced and

 4     changed by other witnesses, then I will have no problem.  And then in

 5     May, things will be normal when the works are finished.

 6             If the witness lists change until May, then I'll have

 7     insurmountable problems.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  As of now, the

 9     Prosecutor is telling us that there is no changes in store.  We'll take

10     due note of this, but we never know.  There's always surprises that can

11     come up at any time.  But as of now, obviously everything is well

12     underway and well planned.

13             Mr. Mundis, please, could you have this list of video that could

14     be seen, if need be, as a backup?  That would be nice.  You told us that

15     you would prepare this, and I still don't have it.

16             MR. MUNDIS:  My understanding, Your Honours, is it's still being

17     worked on, and as we indicated yesterday, what we're trying to do is

18     narrow the video list down so that the Trial Chamber has only those

19     videos which are absolutely crucial, in terms of the Prosecution's case.

20     I will make some inquiries this afternoon with members of my team who are

21     working on that component, and we will endeavour to provide further

22     information and/or to get the list to the Chamber and the accused as

23     quickly as possible.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In my mind, and I

25     believe that it's also in the minds of my fellow Judges, the videos that

Page 5942

 1     we see under these conditions may also be, if need be, shown to other

 2     witnesses.  That's a possibility.  But the videos are useful for the

 3     following reasons:  When you will have explicit reference to these videos

 4     in your final submission, with the footnotes, given that these videos

 5     will back your case, or another criterion would be that these videos are

 6     corroborating what a witness might have said, either in one direction or

 7     another, I believe that this is the usefulness of these videos.

 8             The Trial Chamber agrees, and I believe that Mr. Seselj also

 9     agrees, on the fact that these videos must be the most efficient and the

10     most relevant ones, the ones that will be the most useful to everyone.

11     It's a waste of time to show a video that will not be used in the end.

12     Of course, I would like to reassure Mr. Seselj, because when his time

13     comes, if he has videos to show, the Trial Chamber will watch them

14     exactly under the same conditions as the other ones, notably regarding

15     the issue you mentioned.  When we see an excerpt from a video, when we

16     see a clip, sometimes the clip doesn't mean anything if there's no

17     context.  You, yourself, noted this kind of problem, so this is why you

18     should maybe give us the contextual elements that will maybe contradict

19     the Prosecution's case, and we can have hearings that will be devoted

20     specifically to listening to and watching videos provided by the Defence.

21     The Trial Chamber is not excluding to see other videos in the future.

22             Mr. Seselj.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The basic problem has not been

24     solved yet, the problem of obtaining video footage.  The Registry has not

25     found a solution, and I presented the problem to you a few days ago.

Page 5943

 1             When somebody brings from outside DVDs, then they have to turn

 2     them over to the prison authorities to be examined, and then I get them

 3     after a while.  Why would I allow anybody to see them before I do?  I

 4     don't want to do that?  I am the one who decides whether a video clip

 5     will be shown in the courtroom or not.  Why would the prison authorities

 6     look at it and then possibly make copies, or maybe the Registry would do

 7     that and God knows who, and then only it reaches me and then only I can

 8     select what to use in the courtroom or not.  I must have privileged

 9     rights over those video recordings.  They have to be brought to me, given

10     me to take in my hands, and only then it makes sense.

11             I'm not afraid for the contents.  I just insist on the principle.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This question did

13     not escape me.  A few months back, I had mentioned it and I had talked

14     with the Registry about it.  So far, the Chamber did not decide anything.

15     Maybe -- let me state the problem once again.

16             The accused is self-representing himself, and when either

17     Prosecution witnesses come or when Defence witnesses come, he may want

18     videos to be shown, and to this end the accused has told us on several

19     occasions that he had to see the footage himself, beforehand, in order to

20     know exactly how to use them.  Insofar that Mr. Seselj said on different

21     occasions that he was in charge of his own defence and that his

22     associates are only here to carry out his instructions.  And then

23     Mr. Seselj asked us to make sure that prison management allow him to have

24     access to DVDs, without any prior control by the administration, and here

25     maybe I'm interpreting Mr. Seselj's mind, but he believes that if there

Page 5944

 1     is control, there would be interference as far as the rights of the

 2     Defence are concerned.

 3             Now, this being said, the position of the Registry and of the

 4     detention centre is as follows, and I will sum it up:  According to the

 5     Statute and the Rules, they have the responsibility to make sure that

 6     everything is running smoothly in the jail, and because of this, they

 7     must control everything coming in the jail, except, of course, for the

 8     control of a lawyer-to-client relation.  Apart from that, they are

 9     entitled to control everything coming in the jail.  As an example, let's

10     imagine that an accused wants to see a cartoon, for example.  Well,

11     inasmuch as it would be the right of the Defence, this cartoon video

12     would not be submitted to a prior control, and this could be a problem

13     for the -- for prison management.  This is how things stand now, but as

14     we see, this is quite difficult and complex.

15             As of now, the Trial Chamber made no decision on this.  We're

16     still thinking about a procedure that would help arrange the accused and

17     prison management, but I must say that we have not found any solution

18     yet.  But we are fully aware of the problem.  Unfortunately, we don't

19     have a solution yet.

20             The Trial Chamber may have to issue a written decision on this,

21     which may be -- may lead to an appeal, and maybe the Appeals Chamber will

22     find a solution in its great wisdom.  It seems that the Appeals Chamber

23     finds a solution regarding other problems.

24             But it is now time to adjourn.  Thank you all, and we will meet

25     again tomorrow at 8.30.

Page 5945

 1             I would like my fellow Judges to confirm this.  Yes, obviously

 2     they confirm this, so we will meet again tomorrow at 8.30.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.49 a.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

 5                           April, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.