Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6619

1 Thursday, 8 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you call the

7 case, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This

9 is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today, we are Thursday, the 8th

11 of May, 2008. I would like to greet the representatives of the

12 Prosecution, the witness and Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people

13 assisting us in the courtroom or outside the courtroom.

14 Before resuming the cross-examination, I would like to move into

15 private session for a few minutes.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

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Page 6620











11 Pages 6620-6635 redacted. Private session.















Page 6636

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. VS-002, yesterday, at the beginning of the cross-examination,

22 I asked you whether, in me, personally, or in the Serb Radical Party, you

23 saw any danger due to which you sought protective measures, and your

24 answer was in the negative; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6637

1 Q. Now I would like to know the following. When was it that you

2 found out for the first time that you were supposed to appear as a

3 Prosecution witness here in the courtroom in the trial against me? When

4 were you first told about that?

5 A. Well, look, the first time this was mentioned to me as a

6 possibility, now, I don't know exactly, two or three years ago, when I

7 was here last time. I think it's been five or six months now that I've

8 been officially asked.

9 Q. So you were told by the Prosecution twice that you were planned

10 to testify in this trial. The first time, they referred to it as a

11 possibility, and the second time, they notified you officially that you

12 would be a witness for the Prosecution?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And the third time, when you came to The Hague for proofing; am I

15 right?

16 A. Well, I understood that not as proofing, but I knew that I would

17 be a witness when I came to The Hague then.

18 Q. During these three contacts with the Prosecution, did you express

19 any fear to the representatives of the OTP, to the effect that you felt

20 endangered by me or members of the Serb Radical Party?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you sure you never said any such thing to them? I'm not

23 going to torture you any longer. Your answer was, "No." This is not a

24 trap question for you. This is something that I have to put before the

25 Trial Chamber now.

Page 6638

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours -- rather, Judges,

2 last year, when you got a request -- a joint request from the Prosecution

3 for protective measures, you received an addendum as well, explaining the

4 reasons for which protective measures were sought for each and every

5 witness. As for this witness, VS-002, the explanation said at the very

6 end, so I'm not going to talk about the content of the planned testimony.

7 It says:

8 "Witness VS-002 lives in a territory that is easily accessible to

9 the followers of the accused."

10 So to me, to me, this is what I'm adding now:

11 "The witness is afraid he will be exposed to intimidation and

12 revenge if the public finds out that he testified, and the Prosecution

13 shares this fear. The testimony of this witness in connection with the

14 participation of volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, the Serb Chetnik

15 Movement --"

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We are in open session. It might

17 not be perhaps prudent to stay in open session. [Overlapping speakers]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

19 First of all, Mr. Dutertre, from time to time you complain that

20 Mr. Seselj speaks too fast and interrupts the witnesses, and now you

21 interrupted. I didn't even have the end of the translation of what

22 Mr. Seselj was saying. So I did not hear what you said. Could you

23 please tell me what you said again?

24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Certainly.

25 Your Honour, questions relating to protective measures are being

Page 6639

1 evoked here, and I think that maybe it would be more prudent to go back

2 into closed session and to redact what was said these last minutes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall consult my fellow

4 Judges first.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I say something before you

6 decide, if I have the right to do that before you decide? Afterwards,

7 it's too late.

8 I think that there is absolutely no specific reason to move into

9 closed session, because in this paragraph that I'm reading out, there is

10 no reference to any name, fact. Nothing is mentioned except for fear

11 that I or the Serb Radical Party could threaten the witness. Please let

12 me read out those two sentences. There's absolutely nothing that should

13 be read out in closed session. I can guarantee that.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre, what would

16 you like to add?

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is a

18 motion -- it is a motion that was filed confidentially, under seal, so

19 nobody can read something that was under seal unless the Trial Chamber

20 had lifted the confidentiality. So I object that excerpts from documents

21 that were filed under seal be read in this trial.

22 Your microphone is open, Mr. President.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

25 has deliberated on this and decides the following:

Page 6640

1 The sentence that was read by Mr. Seselj may remain in the domain

2 of the open session. This sentence talks about general matters relating

3 to reasons linked with protective measures, so this cannot identify the

4 witness at all.

5 Secondly, the Trial Chamber wishes to mention to Mr. Seselj that

6 if he continues to read excerpts from a confidential motion, the

7 Trial Chamber may adopt a different position if the read passages mention

8 elements that may identify the witness directly or indirectly.

9 Very well. Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm being very careful,

11 Mr. President, and I think that so far I haven't done anything that could

12 jeopardise the identity of protected witnesses, although in some cases I

13 fervently wanted to do that. But in the case of this witness, I really

14 never wanted to.

15 You have seen the kind of witnesses who appeared here, so you can

16 understand what I'm saying.

17 Let me just read these two sentences, and I guarantee in advance

18 that there will be nothing that would be subject to measures of secrecy.

19 Subsequently, you can declare this secret if I make a mistake, but I'm

20 sure I won't make a mistake.

21 So now let me read it out from the beginning, because I was

22 interrupted halfway, in half sentence, if you allow me.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Again, for the record, the Prosecution objects to

24 the accused reading out, in public, a filing that was filed

25 confidentially. That, in our submission, is improper, regardless of the

Page 6641

1 contents that might be contained within what he says. If we file

2 something confidentially, then the office has taken a position that the

3 material should not be in the public domain, and as a result of that the

4 accused should not be allowed to read into the record material that was

5 filed confidentially. As a matter of principle, Your Honours, we think

6 that's wrong.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you are a

8 prosecutor with a great deal of experience. You know very well the

9 Trial Chambers have the right to lift the confidentiality of any document

10 filed confidentially. Even more, Trial Chambers have the possibility to

11 render confidential ex parte documents public. So you are right, it's at

12 our own discretion. When it comes to confidential documents, you must

13 remember that Trial Chambers have the right to lift the

14 confidentiality - it's at our own discretion - when there are no -- when

15 there is no need to maintain the confidentiality of a certain document.

16 So I would like to say, for myself, I do not know what the

17 position of my fellow Judges are, but according to me, justice must be

18 done clearly, without any confidentiality, justice must be transparent,

19 except of course for documents that regard either the personal safety of

20 a witness, or of a victim, or when it contains state security matters.

21 But for the time being, the sentence that was read does not jeopardise

22 absolutely anybody's position and does not violate any rights. And as

23 the accused said himself, if the Trial Chamber deems that we can redact

24 certain elements, we will redact.

25 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

Page 6642

1 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly, the Prosecution has no quarrel with the

2 notion that the Chamber can lift the confidentiality or the nature of a

3 filing that was made ex parte and confidentially. What our concerns are

4 go to the broader issue concerning witness protection.

5 When we meet with witnesses and they request protective measures,

6 they are generally informed that such requests will be made

7 confidentially. If we then move into a situation where the public

8 becomes aware that in the future, notwithstanding the fact that a motion

9 was made confidentially, that the accused can come in and divulge parts

10 of that, that will have a devastating affect on our ability to bring

11 witnesses in here who might need protective measures.

12 Rather than allowing the accused to read this into the record

13 with the proviso that it can be subsequently redacted, we would suggest

14 it would be better to go into closed or private session, and if the

15 material can then be put into the public domain, so be it. But we're

16 dealing with a situation where, in our respectful views, Your Honours,

17 utmost caution must be taken when we're dealing with protective measures

18 concerning witnesses.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

20 Mr. Mundis, you are proposing that we first move into private session.

21 Mr. Seselj would then read those excerpts, and the Trial Chamber, if it

22 deems there is no problem, may at that point say that it can be read into

23 open session. Is that what you're proposing?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So let me confer

Page 6643

1 with my fellow Judges.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In order to find an

4 acceptable compromise that would satisfy all parties, we shall first move

5 into private session. Mr. Seselj will then read the two sentences in

6 question, and the Trial Chamber will decide on what will ensue, and I

7 may, myself, reread those two sentences at a later stage in order for it

8 to become public.

9 So, Mr. Registrar.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

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Page 6644











11 Page 6644 redacted. Private session.















Page 6645

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to read out in public as

7 well these two sentences from the Prosecution's explanation why

8 protective measures were sought for this witness, because I believe that

9 in this way, I am not challenging the witness's testimony, or his

10 credibility, or anything that has to do with him personally. In this

11 way, I'm just branding the procedure applied by the Prosecution, because

12 I'm saying -- it says here:

13 "Witness VS-002 lives in a territory that is easily accessible to

14 followers of the accused. The witness is afraid that he will be exposed

15 to intimidation and revenge if the public finds out that he testified,

16 and the Prosecution shares this fear. The testimony of this witness in

17 relation to the participation of the volunteers of the Serb

18 Radical Party, the Serb Chetnik Movement, in the massacre on the farm of

19 Ovcara is of crucial importance for the Prosecution case. The testimony

20 of Witness VS-002 will probably cause fury among many members and

21 sympathizers of the Serb Radical Party and Serb Radical Movement. Many

22 of them, like those that Witness VS-002 will mention, might try to take

23 revenge upon him or his family if they find out that he testified."

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, we did not have the text.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A few times in front of you here,

Page 6646

1 the witness said, decidedly, yesterday and today, several times that he

2 never felt any danger coming from me, personally, or the

3 Serb Radical Party.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

5 would like to add this so that it's on the transcript: The Trial Chamber

6 has authorised you to read a confidential document pertaining to the

7 protective measures after having considered the opinions of the

8 Prosecution and the witness on this matter. This is why the

9 Trial Chamber has entitled Mr. Seselj to read out this excerpt of the

10 document.

11 You may proceed, Mr. Seselj.

12 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. VS-002, I listened to your entire examination-in-chief, and I

14 read your statement from 11 years ago, and I read the transcript from

15 your hearing from last week. I never found a name anywhere of any

16 volunteer of the Serbian Radical Party who, according to your testimony,

17 participated in the Ovcara crime. You now -- are you now able to recall

18 any name of any man that you know for sure was a volunteer of the

19 Serbian Radical Party and that he had taken part in this crime? Please,

20 can you try to remember very well if you are able to find any name at

21 all?

22 A. Well, if I was not able to remember then, in 1997, I'm definitely

23 not able to remember anything now, after 10 years, so the answer is that

24 I cannot.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. VS-002.

Page 6647

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This other thing that I would now

2 like to read briefly probably is also affected by these protective

3 measures, so I'm letting you know in advance. And this is going to take

4 a minute or two at the most, so perhaps we can then move into private

5 session.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we'll adopt the same

7 procedure. Let's move into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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Page 6648











11 Pages 6648-6653 redacted. Private session.















Page 6654

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. VS-002, in your previous testimony, the first time you

5 testified - I don't have to mention the case, it's not so important - and

6 this is on page 1174 of the transcript, you said that there were all

7 sorts of volunteers in Vukovar and all sorts -- and reservists. This

8 indicates that not all volunteers can be described as volunteers of the

9 Serbian Radical Party; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, absolutely.

11 Q. The cockade that you received from me, after I actually took it

12 from a person, from my escort, that was Petar Panic who was my personal

13 escort for several years and my escort at the time, did you see an

14 identical cockade like that on anyone in Vukovar? So what is the sense

15 of my question? Was that cockade unique in the way it looked in Vukovar?

16 A. I don't believe so. Look, I didn't see such a cockade on others,

17 but I don't believe that it was created specially for Vukovar.

18 Q. Well, it wasn't made for anything concrete. This was sold on

19 Belgrade's Main Street. I mean, everybody knows the manufacturer. But

20 what I'm asking you is: Did you see one like that on anyone else?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you couldn't say in any way that that cockade was a marking of

23 the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party?

24 A. No, definitely not. It's possible that some radicals there also

25 wore a cockade like that, but I didn't see them all wearing it uniformly.

Page 6655

1 Q. All right, all right. You said that there were reservists there

2 from different groups. Some were from Novi Sad, some were from

3 Crnojevac. You even mentioned some Nis Rangers, but you said that you

4 didn't know what kind of a formation that was. In any event, all of

5 those groups of reservists, volunteers, soldiers, they were all part of

6 the JNA; do you agree with me?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your examination-in-chief, you mentioned that there were some

9 individuals who were walking around Vukovar. "From what I can recollect,

10 they could have been armed, but they didn't belong to anyone." Do you

11 recall saying anything like that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And there were persons like that; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And their motives were of a criminal nature; would you agree with

16 me?

17 A. Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, thank you very much.

19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm terribly sorry to

20 interrupt, but the pace is very fast, the interpretation is done from

21 Serbian to English and from English to French. When the witness

22 answered, since the pace was so fast, I only heard then the

23 interpretation into French. I cannot make any objections.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, you speak the

25 same language I do, and I'm under the impression that the interpreter in

Page 6656

1 the French booth is interpreting directly from Serbian into French,

2 meaning that we are following as the original goes on simultaneously. So

3 maybe you get a delay on your end of the courtroom.

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I believe it's the same thing, but

5 the witness is answering so quickly that I cannot make any objections. I

6 would kindly ask the pace to be slower.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please try to slow

8 down, and especially when you want to emphasise a very important event,

9 do so. And this is what I do: When I wish to emphasise an important

10 sentence or something very important, I slow down intentionally so that

11 people pay attention. So if you want to highlight something, such as the

12 cockade that you mentioned earlier, slow down, and you will see that

13 automatically people will pay more attention to what you're saying.

14 These are various techniques. You know them better than I, of course, in

15 terms of speech techniques.

16 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. VS-002, I am constantly being criticised in this courtroom,

18 but what can I do? I have to bear all of that. Don't be surprised

19 because of that. I would like you to tell us --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, some critiques can

21 be constructive critiques.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

23 ... I can when somebody's younger and they can be corrected, but I'm

24 incorrigible, Your Honour. They have declared me as incorrigible a long

25 time ago.

Page 6657

1 Q. Would you be kind enough to tell me everything you know about

2 Spasoje Petkovic, called Stuka, without mentioning your own relations

3 with him so that you could be recognised? What did you know? What did

4 he do during the war in Vukovar? I'm keeping in mind what you have

5 already mentioned in your statement, so now if you could give us the

6 whole picture about him. But avoid saying anything that would take us

7 into private session. I would like this to be said in public.

8 A. Stuka, if I can put it in general terms -- it was rumoured that

9 Stuka was very dangerous and that he liked to kill, so that -- well, the

10 reason for that was that while he was a regular soldier, he was

11 personally connected to another friend of his, a soldier. He was

12 seriously wounded in the spine and became an invalid. So I think that he

13 wanted to seek revenge for what happened to his friend.

14 Q. Do you know any specific instances of Stuka killing?

15 A. I mentioned some events in my statement, but I never saw the

16 killings directly, myself. But it's logical, you see, because quite

17 simply I didn't like being present when things like that were going on,

18 so I avoided situations like that as much as I could.

19 Q. And was Stuka at Ovcara?

20 A. Yes, he was.

21 Q. Did Stuka kill at Ovcara?

22 A. He took people out of the hangar, and he didn't bring them back.

23 And as far as I learnt, they were killed with a Scorpio rifle -- Scorpio

24 gun, he had this gun for liquidation purposes.

25 Q. Do you know that pathological analysis found that there was some

Page 6658

1 18 weapons used to kill the prisoners at Ovcara? The press wrote about

2 this. I think there were 18. There was just one Heckler among them.

3 Did you say he had a Heckler or a Scorpion?

4 A. A Scorpion.

5 Q. There was just one Scorpion among all those other weapons; do you

6 remember that?

7 A. No, I know nothing about that.

8 Q. Do you know who Bozo Latinovic?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Or Boro Latinovic. What's his real name? What's the correct

11 name?

12 A. I know the surname Latinovic. I could describe the man. Now, as

13 far as -- I think it was Bozo, yes.

14 Q. And was his nickname "Krajisnik"?

15 A. Then it's Boro Latinovic.

16 Q. Boro Latinovic, nicknamed "Krajisnik." Is that right?

17 A. Yes, Krajisnik.

18 Q. Was he at Ovcara?

19 A. I don't know. I didn't see him there.

20 Q. Very well. Now why did I ask you that? Because both of them

21 were accused by the court in Belgrade, and then they struck a bargain

22 with the prosecution, and the indictment was withdrawn if they agreed to

23 give false testimony against other accused. Very well.

24 Now, yesterday --

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wanted to intervene for

Page 6659

1 something else, but, yes, Mr. Dutertre.

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, once again I think we

3 should omit talking about false testimonies, whether it's relating to

4 this witness who is here or a witness who's testified in other matters.

5 I think it's inappropriate.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I did not want to intervene for

7 that, and it was brought up by my colleague yesterday, and the

8 Trial Chamber would invite once again, Mr. Seselj, unless he really knew

9 that in Belgrade it was withdrawn because there were some false

10 witnesses, but then that has to be proved, but I did not want to

11 intervene for this. I wanted to say something else.

12 Many weeks ago, I requested the Prosecution -- and now I'm

13 talking to Mr. Mundis officially. The Trial Chamber requested the

14 Prosecutor to hand us a copy of the indictment regarding a case that was

15 judged in Belgrade, and we still haven't received it. The Trial Chamber

16 requested it, but I did not get it yet, and I am very surprised, because

17 the Trial Chamber made that request, the Prosecutor could have called the

18 prosecutor in Belgrade to ask him to send him, by fax, the indictment in

19 Serbian. That should have been given to the Translation Section

20 immediately. So it would be incredibly ridiculous that I ask the accused

21 to get this document.

22 So, Mr. Mundis, how is it so that when witnesses come and we talk

23 about Vukovar and we talk about the Belgrade trial, how is it so that we

24 don't have in our hands the indictment from Belgrade?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the CLSS is working on the

Page 6660

1 translation of a number of indictments from the former Yugoslavia for

2 transmission to the Chamber. We attempted to file those earlier. They

3 were rejected on the grounds that we didn't have the translations yet.

4 So we're working on the translations, and they will be provided as soon

5 as they are ready and available.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But this indictment

7 has a priority. It has to be translated as soon as possible. It is a

8 priority. Some witnesses come to talk to us about Vukovar, and there

9 were trials with people who are being tried right now or who will be

10 tried, and we have to be able to check some data, and we do not have the

11 indictment to do so.

12 I will stop here. Let's continue.

13 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your

15 attention, Mr. President, to the fact that the first-instance judgement

16 in the Belgrade trial was appealed, fell on appeal by the Supreme Court,

17 and the Supreme Court ordered a new trial, which is underway, so that the

18 qualifications that I gave you a moment ago are not far from the truth.

19 In fact, they're very close to the truth.

20 Now, I have before me part of the transcripts from the trial in

21 Belgrade, and I provided the service yesterday for it to be copied for

22 the Trial Chamber. The Prosecution has it, because the Prosecution

23 disclosed it to me sometime ago. But I selected just some excerpts from

24 that -- or those transcripts which contain the statement of some of the

25 accused. So what was in open, public session. There is no secret

Page 6661

1 testimony, so there's no reason for us to go into private session,

2 either, here.

3 Q. Mr. VS-002, you said in examination-in-chief that

4 Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni, you did not see him at Ovcara; is that right?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. However, I have to inform you now that for a brief time he was,

7 indeed, at Ovcara, but for a very short period of time, and I assume that

8 you weren't there at that time. So I have before me here the statements

9 given by Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, one moment, please.

11 The Prosecutor wishes to say something. He is on his feet.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. Your Honour, I

13 myself put the question to the witness as far as if he saw Kameni. He

14 did not say that he didn't see him, he said that he didn't remember

15 seeing him. So if the witness is to be quoted, I would like him to be

16 quoted precisely, or maybe one should quote a transcript page.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj asked you

18 if you had seen Kameni. You saw Kameni or you don't remember seeing him?

19 It's not exactly the same thing.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be true to say that I

21 don't remember seeing him. But how can I say, here and now, that I

22 didn't see him? Well, I don't remember having seen him. So -- well, I'm

23 doing my best to answer the questions truthfully, to the best of my

24 knowledge, so this places me in a very stupid situation, whether I don't

25 remember seeing him -- well, I don't remember seeing him now. Whether I

Page 6662

1 did see him, what can I say?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is a very important

3 question, and if Mr. Seselj puts that question to you, it's because it's

4 important for him. But it's also important for the justice, for us --

5 for justice or for us.

6 Was Mr. Kameni in Ovcara? You could say, if you know, yes, you

7 saw him in Ovcara, or if you do not remember, you can also say that you

8 don't remember. But give us exactly the right answer.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection to make. I

10 just informed the witness that Kameni was at Ovcara for a brief period of

11 time. The witness says he doesn't remember seeing him, so if he doesn't

12 remember seeing him, it's the same as saying he didn't see him. "I don't

13 remember seeing him," that means he wasn't there. That's so clear to me

14 that I have nothing further to ask. But I'm informing him of this now so

15 that I can continue with my questions, because I have collected the

16 transcripts here of the interviews by Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni,

17 Predrag Milojevic, Kinez, and Marko Ljuboja, nicknamed Mare, what they

18 said in the court in Belgrade. So now on the basis of parts of those

19 transcripts, I'd like to ask the witness specific questions.

20 It's not my aim to force him to remember at all costs something

21 that he didn't see, but what is interesting for me is part of the

22 statements given in Belgrade, and then I'd like to hear his comments, the

23 witness's comments and testimony to those portions of the transcript.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead. We all agree on

25 this.

Page 6663

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I provided you with those

2 transcripts. I'm on page 10 now of the transcript which begins with

3 "06260125." That's the number. And then it goes on to "0143," page 19

4 of that set.

5 Kameni says that the Staff of his unit was in Nova Ulica Street,

6 and you said in your testimony that it was in his house. He says that it

7 was in Vaso Robija and his brother Pero's house.

8 Q. Does that change anything substantially? Is that nearby or what?

9 A. Well, it's possible. I assumed it was Kameni's house. I really

10 didn't know where Kameni lives, either before the war or after the war.

11 So what I meant was, yes, Nova Ulica, that's where -- I thought it was

12 Kameni's house. Possibly it's not his. The possibility is there.

13 Q. Did you know at that time that on that day when I was in Vukovar,

14 I spent the night there?

15 A. I know you stayed there for two or three days.

16 Q. I remember that they took me to Kameni's house to spend the

17 night. So it wasn't the house in which the headquarters were located,

18 but another house in the vicinity. That's what that means. Well, it's

19 not important.

20 Now, do you remember that that same night, right next to the

21 house where I spent the night, an aeroplane -- an agricultural plane

22 belonging to the Croatian Air Force dropped a load of explosives?

23 A. I don't know that it happened then.

24 Q. And the next day, Tomislav Peternek, a famous Serbian

25 photographer, took a picture of me in front of that house, stripped to

Page 6664

1 the waist, washing myself, with a volunteer pouring water for me. Do you

2 remember that picture, that photograph? "Nin" published it and some

3 other magazines.

4 A. I don't remember the photograph, but I do remember the journalist

5 who was with my unit for 10 or 15 days.

6 Q. Tomislav Peternek was a very brave man. He went to the

7 frontlines and took photographs of the fighting?

8 A. Yes. He was armed with a camera, that's quite right.

9 Q. Mr. 002, we've been told to slow down, but I think it applies to

10 you, rather than me. Would you pause before you answer my question?

11 A. Yes, I'll do my best.

12 Q. On that same page, Kameni refers to Major Tesic, Major

13 Borivoje Tesic. That's who he is. I assume you knew him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He was the commander of the 1st Assault Battalion, right, or

16 rather the 1st Assault Detachment? He was the commander of the battalion

17 within the Guards Brigade, and then he was appointed commander of the

18 Assault Detachment; is that right?

19 A. I know that he commanded the battalion, as far as the

20 Guards Brigade is concerned, under whom the Territorial Defence left

21 flank belonged to. Now, the exact names of the units which he commanded,

22 I don't know. I don't know the exact names of the units.

23 Q. When you spoke about the structure of the units of the

24 Territorial Defence here, I noticed, and with the help of Kameni's

25 statement, I'd like to ask you additional questions on that same subject.

Page 6665

1 Kameni says they were all under the command of Borivoje Tesic, that in

2 the evening they held meetings, and that coincides with your statement,

3 that they coordinated operations. And Kameni goes on to say that the

4 battalion that was commanded by Major Tesic had three companies. Can you

5 confirm that?

6 A. Well, it's like this: I assume that that is correct, that what

7 Kameni said is correct, because he knew the top echelons better. I was a

8 soldier, he was a commander. I know about Tesic because I happened to

9 see him two or three times, and I know that Tesic knows of me, of my

10 existence, so -- now, I never had to go to him to report or anything like

11 that, so I really didn't know all the officers and who was in command of

12 what.

13 Q. Now, on the next page there, Milan Lancuzanin, Kameni, goes on to

14 explain who the commanders of the three companies were, and he says --

15 and that's paragraph 1 on page 20 -- that they were Captains Radic,

16 Zirovic, and Bojkovski. And then he goes on to say:

17 "Captain Radic was along our axis of activity, where Miroljub and

18 myself were, Miroljub and I," and so that was the Petrova Gora

19 Detachment, and Miroljub Vujovic was its commander. And then there was

20 the Leva Supoderica Detachment whose commander was Kameni, and there was

21 the company of Captain Radic as well.

22 Now, what is Kameni explaining here? He's explaining that each

23 JNA company was linked to a Territorial Defence detachment and they

24 worked in unison; is that right?

25 A. Probably that is correct, theoretically speaking. However, in

Page 6666

1 our particular case, that is to say, in the case of the unit that I was

2 in under Miroljub's command, the only assistance we had from the army was

3 by way of ammunition and weapons.

4 Q. We're talking about action here. Do you understand me? Your

5 unit is going into action and Captain Radic's unit is going into action.

6 That's the Guards company. And then you have the Leva Supoderica,

7 belonging to Kameni?

8 A. That is possible, yes.

9 Q. Right. Then he goes on to say Captain Bojkovski went with a unit

10 under the command of Stanko Vujanovic, and Captain Zirovic, to all

11 intents and purposes, had lagged behind and that he found it difficult to

12 advance because his unit was rather inert. That's what Milan Lancuzanin

13 says here in his statement. Do you agree that what -- how he describes

14 it is correct?

15 A. As far as Bojkovski is concerned, I really can't say. Now with

16 respect to Captain Zirovic what I can say is that it wasn't his fault

17 that they were inert, because he only had two or three soldiers.

18 Q. You've already said that the commander of the Vukovar Territorial

19 Defence was Jaksic. However, Jaksic did not have a single unit

20 immediately under his command and did not take part in the fighting. He

21 was in the rear all the time. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers kindly slow down for the

24 benefit of one and all. Thank you.

25 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 6667

1 Q. ... there were two or three units, one under the command of

2 Stanko Vujanovic, Miroljub Vujovic, and a third unit --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're going way

4 too fast. Follow the transcript. You will see that the interpreters are

5 shouting for help.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll speak much more slowly now.

7 Q. Anyway, Kameni is testifying here and says there were a total of

8 three units, one under the command of Vujovic, one under the command of

9 Stanko Vujanovic, and one under his own command. Now, at the bottom of

10 that same page -- or rather he says somewhere there that it was Jaksic's

11 intention for Kameni's unit to be the 3rd Company of the

12 Territorial Defence, in actual fact, whereas he was placed under the

13 direct command of the Guards Brigade already. And the Prosecution in the

14 Slobodan Milosevic trial, while I was a Defence witness there, the

15 Prosecution showed me a document signed by Milan Mrksic, where it states

16 that all the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party should go to the

17 Leva Supoderica Detachment. Is this something new, are you hearing

18 something new now or did you know about it at the time?

19 A. Well, it's like this: What they did and where they sent whom and

20 who was under whose command, I really wasn't much interested in any of

21 that. Well, I don't know whether it was a power struggle as to who would

22 be the commander or whatever, but I didn't like it then either.

23 Q. Well, there was some competition and rivalry among the three of

24 them for supremacy; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6668

1 Q. So although they cooperated in battle, on a human level there was

2 rivalry and competition; would you agree with that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right, fine. Now, here on page 29, Kameni is previously

5 speaking --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone.

7 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Kameni is explaining how he came to be at Ovcara. He said he

9 heard something was going on there, and he says that he drove in in a

10 Passat car. Did you see that Passat car of his in Vukovar?

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness said that

12 he didn't remember, and I know that this question should not be put.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But maybe he saw a vehicle.

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, but in that case, there's an

15 assumption, the assumption that Kameni had a Passat. So in his question,

16 there's a hypothesis put to the witness, so I object to that sort of

17 question.

18 First of all, we should establish whether Kameni had a car, what

19 kind of car he had, and if he drove in a car.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, in order to avoid

21 that the Prosecutor puts objections, which of course makes us all waste

22 time, try to put questions to the witness in such a way so that the

23 Prosecutor is not rising to put objections.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Whatever questions I come to ask,

25 I can assure you, Judges, that the Prosecutor will jump to his feet all

Page 6669

1 the time, because he's dissatisfied with these proceedings, the way the

2 witness is testifying, the results of the cross-examination, and I am not

3 able to help him out there.

4 But this is what I want to ask the witness: Kameni is explaining

5 that he arrived at Ovcara, and you have that in paper there, and that

6 with him were Kinez, Ceca and Marko Ljuboja, and when he saw that the

7 prisoners were there, they were in the hangar, he tried to take out some

8 of those prisoners, and he gives names. And I want to ask this witness

9 whether he knows the names of those Croats whom Kameni wanted to take

10 away from Ovcara, because they were friends of his. That's what I want

11 to ask, but how am I to do that?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, please.

13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Now, Kameni, on page -- and I'm jumping over this now, going

15 further -- on page 33, says that he wanted to take away Jarabek -- well,

16 he enumerates them, so I don't want to run the risk of making mistakes,

17 let's take it this way: Jarabek, Sarek, Medjasi and Zvonimir Caleta.

18 Did you know these Croats from Vukovar?

19 A. I just think I know Medjasi.

20 Q. Now, this Zvonimir Caleta person, he says he was the maitre d' at

21 the Hotel Dunav [as interpreted], and that he was related to his friend

22 Mile Belanovic. So he says, I wanted to take him away and take him to

23 that relative of his. Did you know this maitre d' at the Danube Hotel?

24 If not, we can go ahead.

25 A. No, I didn't, but we can move on.

Page 6670

1 Q. And then Kameni goes on to say that seven or eight of them --

2 that he did separate -- select seven or eight of them and that he wanted

3 to take them away from Ovcara, but that the people who were there, that

4 those who were there told him that they would get up on to the

5 trailer-truck and that he could follow the trailer-truck. Does this ring

6 a bell? Does the situation seem familiar, that certain people were set

7 aside, not to mention names, that they wanted to set aside people to save

8 them, whereas they were taken in quite a another direction and killed?

9 A. Yes, I am familiar with that.

10 Q. So something similar happened to Kameni. And Kameni goes on to

11 explain now, and I have here, on the following pages, where he says that

12 he set out in this Passat car of his, following the trailer-truck, and

13 that suddenly the trailer-truck took a turn off the asphalt road and went

14 into the fields, and that he was surprised to see that, and that he kept

15 following the trailer-truck and got stuck in the mud off the road, and

16 that the trailer-truck went further on and he was no longer able to catch

17 up with them. So was that the usual method, that trailer-trucks set out

18 along the asphalt with the prisoners and that after a certain amount of

19 time and distance they turned off into the fields?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, I don't know what

21 you're about to say, but the question is an important one, as far as I'm

22 concerned. Now, we are cross-referencing what the witness has been

23 telling us and what Kameni has been saying about the trailer-truck. Why

24 do you want to raise an objection?

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] What Mr. Kameni says in a trial

Page 6671

1 where he is an accused is his business. Anybody can put the question he

2 likes. But that is not why I'm on my feet.

3 I believe the witness has never been to the site of the

4 execution, if I understand this correctly, so he can't say anything about

5 it. He can only speculate the way in which the trailer-truck might have

6 been able to go -- be driven around the field and get stuck in the mud.

7 So he can't answer this in any way, and this is why I have risen to my

8 feet.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Kameni now explains here that he returned very angry and that he

13 quarrelled with the people who were in charge of this dirty job at

14 Ovcara. Then an incident took place. They started insulting him, saying

15 that he's a coward, and in a derogatory sense they used a vulgar term

16 relating to female genitals, and with Kinez, Ceca and Marko Ljuboja, he

17 left Ovcara. That is it in the briefest possible terms, the content of

18 his statement.

19 You did not hear of anyone being insulted there, these derogatory

20 terms being used, as far as Serbs are concerned? Did you hear that?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. My

22 colleague has just brought this to my attention.

23 This legal document you are reading, which is Kameni's testimony

24 during the trial, is this a statement which is part of the trial that has

25 been cancelled or is this a testimony that followed the opening up of the

Page 6672

1 trial again, when the trial resumed?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a statement during the

3 first trial, and the date here is the 29th of June, 2004. That is what

4 is written here, and this was submitted to me by the OTP, the OTP of

5 The Hague Tribunal. They probably thought that they would scare me when

6 they provided me with this pile of material, and I sit leafing through

7 that for nights, and then they regret ever having sent such things to me.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, all right. The

9 Trial Chamber will assess the value of this document, but for the time

10 being, since the trial has been cancelled, we are starting anew. Since

11 the trial has been cancelled, everything prior to that has been cancelled

12 also. So in legal terms, without wasting any time on this, theoretically

13 the document you are reading does not exist. So for your information, it

14 would be interesting for us to know Mr. Kameni's version of this.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all these documents

16 exist, in legal terms, but there is no judgement only. These documents

17 were taken over by the new proceedings and a single sentence suffices, if

18 an accused person says, "I fully subscribe to the statement I made

19 personally." Believe me, I know that, because I was tried there for 30

20 years.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Seselj, you are

22 well-versed in the proceedings here, so you are providing additional

23 information to some of the questions of my colleague. You have just told

24 us that this document was tendered in the new trial, so we have

25 acknowledged this and note what you are telling us.

Page 6673

1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In relation to Kameni's statement, I just want to put one more

3 question to the witness. Kameni states here that already on the 18th of

4 November, people were leaving, being disengaged from his unit, and that

5 Leva Supoderica was reduced to about 30 members in total. Did you see

6 that from the 18th of October, onwards, many buses were taking

7 territorials and volunteers and reservists from Vukovar, taking them back

8 to where they had come from?

9 A. I did not see them being driven away or not, but I wasn't even

10 interested in that. I know that people believed that the war was over,

11 and I myself had the opportunity to ask for a leave to go to Novi Sad,

12 and that would have been approved. My problem was that I did not have

13 any transportation. At that time, I hadn't passed my driver's exam,

14 either, so I didn't ask for leave at that point.

15 Q. All right. Well, that's what he says. I thought that you knew

16 something about that. You don't, so I'm not going to insist on it any

17 longer.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I'm going to

19 stress this, because this is extremely important, and it's very important

20 for the following reason: You were there. We know that the tragic

21 events that occurred in Ovcara took place on the 20th. Now, what we are

22 interested in is to know, after, I'm using a general term, the Serb

23 forces took Vukovar, without going into any detail, you were there, did

24 you have the feeling that a lot of the fighters then left after Vukovar

25 was taken? They went of their own free will or they went because they

Page 6674

1 had been given orders, or did you feel that everybody was waiting for

2 potential orders? You said yourself that you wanted to leave because it

3 was over, but it was a problem. What I'm interested in is the fate of

4 all the others.

5 How did you understand the situation at the time?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, as far as I can

7 remember now, the army issued permits for departures, about 200 per day.

8 I cannot remember exactly now. I know that there were one-time permits

9 and also multiple-use permits. So you could get permission to leave on a

10 particular day, that you could leave the zone on a particular day. I

11 personally needed a permit that would be valid for seven days or for a

12 month, because after receiving this permit, I would need a day or two to

13 find transportation to Novi Sad.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When the Bench is

15 running the proceedings, that is a different approach.

16 Now, you have just told us about something which we've never

17 heard about before. You've just told us that you remember after --

18 seemingly after the fall of Vukovar, the army gave -- on page 35553 [as

19 interpreted], they gave orders to let soldiers go on leave. Are you

20 quite sure? Page 55, page 55.

21 Could you answer my question, please? You said 200 soldiers were

22 authorised to go on leave per day?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not say that. I said

24 that the army could issue 200 permits per day, and that I heard that,

25 which is not to say 200 soldiers. So 200 soldiers could have received

Page 6675

1 these permits, but perhaps they didn't.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this

3 clarification.

4 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

6 Q. So the permit could have been a collective one, one permit for

7 several soldiers?

8 A. I assume that that is the case, but, really -- I mean, really, I

9 do not remember. I know that permits were being issued.

10 Q. For instance if an entire bus is leaving, a single permit was

11 sufficient, as far as I know.

12 A. Exactly.

13 Q. Thank you. I have Marko Ljuboja's statement here. Did you know

14 him? Mare was his nickname.

15 A. Look, if I'd see his picture, I'd recognise him for sure, because

16 the name rings a bell. I don't have his face before my eyes now. I

17 cannot say that I directly know the person, but if I were to see his

18 picture, I'd certainly recognise him.

19 Q. Never mind. Marko Ljuboja was briefly at Ovcara with Kameni, and

20 what happened in Belgrade was that Kameni was convicted and Marko Ljuboja

21 was set free, because they wanted to link Kameni up to me. But now we're

22 getting to Predrag Milojevic's statement. His nickname was Kinez. I

23 don't think there's anything else of interest except that his story

24 corroborates Kameni's story.

25 Oh, yes, another thing regarding Marko Ljuboja's statement, he

Page 6676

1 mentions this Topola, who you mentioned as well. And he says that Topola

2 was in the Leva Supoderica unit, but that Kameni expelled him from the

3 unit because of a lack of discipline or perhaps cruel treatment, or

4 something like that. Could that jog your memory, because you could not

5 say where Topola was? You saw him at Ovcara, but you didn't know what

6 unit. After Topola was expelled from Leva Supoderica, was he in any

7 other unit or was he roaming Vukovar on his own?

8 A. For me, it was news that he was --

9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are several

10 questions wrapped in one, so perhaps we could focus only on what is

11 essential.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please focus on your question.

13 Make sure that we understand.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will be as

15 specific as possible.

16 Q. We had Goran Stoparic's testimony here, who also stated that

17 Topola was expelled from the unit. Now we have Marko Ljuboja's statement

18 who says the same thing. I'm just asking the witness whether after that,

19 Topola belonged to any unit or whether he moved about Vukovar on his own.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj. You

21 can put your question again, but I would like to put a question to

22 Mr. Mundis.

23 The document which relates to Kinez -- Kameni's testimony, during

24 the trial in Belgrade Mr. Seselj said these documents were given to him

25 by the Prosecution, and it is my colleague who's drawn my attention on

Page 6677

1 this. Now, if you had disclosed them to Mr. Seselj, you have a

2 translation of these documents into English. I don't see how you could

3 be sending documents to the accused without having read them beforehand.

4 Mr. Mundis, do we have a translation into English of these

5 documents, and if you do, the Trial Chamber would like to have these

6 documents. The.

7 MR. MUNDIS: If the reference, Your Honour, is to the indictment

8 concerning the Vukovar case in Belgrade, that is 65 ter number 2775. The

9 other documents I will make inquiries with respect to and get those in

10 the hands of the Trial Chamber if you don't have them already.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's this document that

12 Mr. Seselj is talking about [indicates]. The number is 0626-012. So

13 this is an official document. There is a seal on this document, and this

14 is a document that Mr. Seselj received. So you must have translated it

15 into English.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, there's no

17 translation into English of this document. The documents in B/C/S are

18 very great in number, and to date I have not received a translation of

19 this document. It was disclosed to the accused, and it is certainly

20 relevant in terms of Rule 66(b). I have just received a two- to

21 three-page summary yesterday which the Trial Chamber might be interested

22 in, but I have no more than that.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Seselj.

24 Put your question again. I interrupted you. I am sorry. Please put

25 your question again.

Page 6678

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to observe, first of all,

2 that I am convinced that had the OTP had this translated into English,

3 they probably wouldn't have sent this to me either, because this is a

4 treasure box for me for data. However, in 2005, they did seize some

5 documents from me, because they said that they mistakenly submitted them

6 to me, and they never told me what the mistakes were. They searched my

7 cell, then they took out what mattered to them and they returned the

8 rest. To this day, I don't know what it was that they took from me then.

9 But what can I do? That is my fate here.

10 Q. Mr. VS-002, I just asked you whether Topola, at the time when you

11 saw him in Vukovar, was alone, a lone individual, or whether he seemed to

12 belong to some unit, or whether somebody else was moving about with him.

13 What is your impression about that? I assume that you saw Topola in

14 Vukovar even before Ovcara.

15 A. Well, look, I may have seen him before that, but I don't remember

16 him in particular. I only remember him from Ovcara, and it didn't seem

17 to me at all that he was a member of this unit, of the radicals, because

18 I would have had that impression to this day, had that been the case. I

19 immediately categorised him as a volunteer independent of all.

20 Q. Let me just say one thing. It wasn't only volunteers of the

21 Serb Radical Party on -- in that unit. I'll tell you what Kinez says

22 here.

23 If the OTP would be so kind as to find that first video footage

24 where Topola was identified and then the photograph where another

25 Prosecution witness identified Topola, and if we could show both

Page 6679

1 photographs to the witness. Well, I'm not counting on that extent of

2 kindness from them, and also this other group of Chetniks with Chetnik

3 flags marching through Vukovar, and one of them only has a Chetnik hat.

4 If you don't want to, I'm not going to insist. Perhaps I'm counting on

5 too much kindness.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, without relying on

7 the courtesy of the Prosecution, the document you are talking about has

8 been shown to the Trial Chamber, and it has a number. So you're

9 perfectly entitled to ask the Trial Chamber to display it on the screen,

10 since it has been tendered into evidence, because you want to show it to

11 the witness. I don't have a number, but if you give me the number, it's

12 not a problem. I just ask the Registrar to display the document in

13 question on the screen, and then he can say, yes, it's Topola, or it's

14 not Topola.

15 Unfortunately, I didn't know that you were going to address this

16 issue. Otherwise, we could have given instructions to look for the

17 document. But, unfortunately, I don't have it.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to admit sincerely that it

19 just occurred to me to mention this. I didn't really prepare for that,

20 and I didn't ask for the number, and I didn't ask the Registry to help

21 me. It just occurred to me right now that this could have been useful.

22 But since this is now not possible, I'm going to move on, because I

23 cannot count on the kindness of the Prosecution. I will move on.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.

25 That you don't rely on the courtesy of the Prosecution, that's one thing,

Page 6680

1 but you can rely on the Chamber's eagerness to do everything that can be

2 done to make sure that all the evidence is adduced, particularly in the

3 presence of a witness.

4 Now, a document has been tendered into evidence. This document

5 relates to Mr. Topola. Was Topola in Ovcara or not? This could be an

6 important question, particularly in light of the case you have just made,

7 and you said that Topola had been thrown out of the unit and that he was

8 an individual on his own. Now, if the witness says this is Topola or it

9 isn't Topola, it could be important.

10 I would like the Registrar to find this document. Perhaps we can

11 lay our hands on a photograph that has already been admitted. If I

12 remember correctly, this photograph had been shown to a witness, and the

13 issue concerned Topola.

14 Normally speaking, if the Registrar goes through the list of

15 exhibits, we'll be able to find it again. Otherwise, we won't.

16 Mr. Seselj, this is what I wanted to say. If the Prosecution

17 doesn't want to make our life easy or be -- very well, but the

18 Trial Chamber, if the exhibit has already been admitted, can find it

19 again.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I want to mention the kindness

21 or not of the Prosecution. I've noticed that oftentimes the Prosecution

22 has provided the accused with a series of documents, so I don't think

23 that they're not willing to do this. And I don't understand why the

24 Prosecution should remember the number of the video clip if you yourself

25 don't remember it. We don't remember all these numbers, the Registrar

Page 6681

1 not either. So why should the Prosecution have to remember the number?

2 I don't understand.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think clearly

5 the Prosecution is under no obligation to assist Mr. Seselj when he is

6 cross-examining a witness. He is in charge then. Of course, we can't

7 remember all the numbers of an exhibit -- all the exhibit numbers. Of

8 course, I shall look for it and address it during the redirect, and I

9 shall try to find the number. So we are willing and in any case working

10 in the interests of justice.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, I would like the Registrar

12 to give us a countdown, please.

13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you've had one hour

15 and 20 minutes. You had three hours and five minutes, so you have -- let

16 me subtract.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can help, an hour and 20

18 minutes, I think.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have 105 minutes left.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One hour and 45 minutes.

21 I mentioned, because it had occurred to me -- I really didn't

22 prepare. I can withdraw all that if the Prosecution is unable to help

23 me. You recall that we had a video still of a big soldier with white

24 cross-belts and somebody lying on the ground, and then we had

25 Witness 007, I think, who identified another person as Topola. This

Page 6682

1 first person was identified as Topola as well, so I would like this

2 witness to look at the video footage and the photograph and to tell us if

3 either of these two people is Topola.

4 I wanted -- actually, this footage was shown in the courtroom

5 several times, and it was separate from the testimony, when there was a

6 group of soldiers marching, wearing JNA helmets, with a Chetnik flag in

7 front of them, and among them, in the middle, is a person with a Chetnik

8 hat and a cockade. Well, if this is not possible, I will withdraw it

9 immediately.

10 Q. But now I would like to ask the witness if he knew

11 Predrag Milojevic, called Kinez?

12 A. I know who that person is. I spoke with him on two or three

13 occasions during the war in Vukovar, but I don't really know him all that

14 well.

15 Q. He was Kameni's deputy, wasn't he?

16 A. I guess so. I don't know exactly.

17 Q. But you must have noticed that throughout the whole war he wore a

18 five -- a red star on his uniform?

19 A. Yes. That was very strange.

20 Q. So it was not only Chetniks who were members of the

21 Leva Supoderica unit; that's one proof?

22 A. I cannot exactly remember his explanation, but I asked him once

23 why he was wearing the red star. There was an explanation that he gave,

24 but I can't remember what it was.

25 Q. Are you aware that he was never a member of the Serbian Radical

Page 6683

1 Party, nor was sent to the front as a volunteer of that party?

2 A. I don't know that.

3 Q. I don't want to say anything or distance myself from him. He's a

4 very good man and an honest fighter. But it's important that you confirm

5 for me that he wore this red star, a communist symbol.

6 A. Yes, that is right.

7 Q. On the second -- in the second set of papers, on page 2 --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The numbers were too fast for the interpreter.

9 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

10 Q. ... he says at the top of the page that in the Leva Supoderica

11 Detachment, the number of people went up to 400 even. Is this something

12 strange to you? Was there such a high number of members of that

13 detachment at any given point?

14 A. I don't know that. I can't reply to that. I really don't know.

15 Q. All right. I'm not going to press you on that. He also came

16 with Kameni, according to his statement here, to Ovcara, where they

17 remained briefly. In the circumstances, actually, he explains that in

18 the same way as Kameni, Marko Ljuboja and Ceca. Did you know Ceca?

19 A. I had heard of him and I probably did see him, but I would need

20 to see a photo to be sure.

21 Q. All right, then. It's not important. This is what he said in

22 his testimony before the Belgrade court, I'm thinking of Kinez, he

23 describes what he saw at Ovcara. So when I read that to you, it's a

24 short passage, I would like your comment:

25 "There was a mass of people there. You could see that something

Page 6684

1 was not going well. The last thing that a person could think --"

2 Yes, I will read more slowly. I am being warned to read more

3 slowly:

4 "You could see that something was not quite right, but the last

5 thing that a person could think of was the fact that there were many

6 soldiers there. There were active-duty soldiers. This was about 5.00 or

7 6.00. There were soldiers there. There were senior officers there,

8 officers. Military policemen were there with cross-belts. These were

9 guys with bulletproof vests, professional bulletproof vests, so these are

10 not volunteers, these are not people from outside.

11 "And I could never think, when the loading was going on, because

12 at the time it was normal to carry out transfers of prisoners. At that

13 time, this was something normal, to load them up. I don't know where

14 they were being boarded to go where. There were stories that they were

15 going to Mitrovica, here or there. So it was quite normal for them to be

16 boarded, but nobody would ever think that soldiers were there or that

17 anything like that would happen. Who would think of anything like that?

18 "To this day, it is unclear to me that such a failure occurred

19 and exactly what happened. If there is God, we will find out what

20 happened here, and there is a god."

21 Do you believe that this is the way in which many soldiers

22 thought at the time who happened to be there at that time? I'm talking

23 about regular soldiers, TO members, reservists, volunteers, that nobody

24 could even conceive that these prisoners of war would be liquidated?

25 A. I personally think that in the beginning, nobody assumed or

Page 6685

1 thought that they would all be killed. I personally assumed that they

2 would be interrogated, that perhaps they would be beaten to find out some

3 truth or not, but it didn't even occur to me that they would all be

4 killed. So this testimony of Kina and the only thing that I cannot agree

5 with is -- and that is that I did not see any soldiers with white

6 cross-belts. But, look, because I didn't see them, it's possible that

7 they happened to be there at a point in time when I wasn't there, because

8 I said that I wasn't there longer than an hour or an hour and a half.

9 But, in essence, I think I answered your question. No one,

10 practically until -- well, how shall I put it? Nobody assumed that

11 anything that happened would happen until it was actually starting to

12 happen, until it was actually happening, so it's possible that somebody

13 from the Command knew something like that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The soldiers with white

15 cross-belts, do you mean that those were soldiers of the military police?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, the soldier with the white

17 cross-belts, and not only in the Guards Brigade but in all the former JNA

18 units, there was a military policeman. This is a little bit strange to

19 me, because I would have definitely seen such soldiers, had they been

20 there. I say again I was not there on a couple of occasions. I would

21 be -- I was away for an hour or two at a time, so I don't know.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now I'm on page 14 again. I am skipping over many parts of the

25 statement. Predrag Milojevic confirmed that the unit was reduced to 40

Page 6686

1 people, he said. And we saw that Kameni said that it was down to 30 men.

2 Probably they cannot be exactly identical in their information after so

3 many years, but he said:

4 "I think that there were about 40 people, that there were not

5 more than that, because, look, with the fall of Vukovar, all the fighters

6 that had been at the front for a long time, the first thing they wanted

7 was to go home. Since General Mrksic was in The Hague when we were

8 making the plan for the action, I was personally present at that meeting.

9 He said, "The end is nigh," he said that personally to me, "We have many

10 men." And then he said, "Let's remove these people gradually," and this

11 is what we were doing so that practically when the 19th came, we only had

12 about 40 people. On the 18th, perhaps there were a bit more."

13 Does anything seem strange to you here when he says that he

14 received an order from Colonel Mrksic to start quickly reducing the

15 number of men in the units?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, yes.

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness

18 stated earlier that he didn't have many contacts with the SRS unit. I do

19 not see what he can answer, and I would like to object.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You do not see what is the

21 relevancy of that question, but I, as a judge, do see a relevance as to

22 what this person, Predrag, said in Belgrade.

23 You may continue, Mr. Seselj.

24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please tell us how tall Kinez was?

Page 6687

1 A. Well, he was taller than me, perhaps 1 metre 90. He was some 10

2 centimetres taller than I was, in any case.

3 Q. But in any case, he's considered to be a tall man?

4 A. Yes, yes. Absolutely.

5 Q. Well, look, this is interesting, what he says here in his

6 testimony; that General Vasiljevic, who gave a statement in The Hague, he

7 testified in the Milosevic case in public session and one part of the

8 testimony was in closed session, and I still haven't received that,

9 unfortunately, he said that he edited a serial truth in Vukovar which was

10 published in some Serbian newspapers, "Ekspres Politika" or something,

11 and he that mentioned Kinez. In describing Kinez, he said that he was an

12 exceptionally small, short man, and I'm saying this because when I was

13 arrested at the end of the Sablja action, he was arrested after the

14 assassination of Djindjic, and this was called the Sablja action, the

15 sabre action, when almost 20.000 people were arrested by the Serbian

16 regime; you heard about that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, I'm saying that when I was taken in at the end of Sablj a,

19 when the people in Belgrade who were working on shedding light on this

20 case, first they came and told me to report to Belgrade at 3.00, and I

21 reported there. As soon as I entered, there was a Mr. Milosevic there,

22 he's thinking of some policeman whose last name is that, and then

23 Vasovic. As soon as I entered, one of them said, 'Sit,' and so I sat

24 down. They told me three times, "Stand up.' First of all, why should I

25 stand up? They asked me, 'Is there another Kinez?' They asked me how

Page 6688

1 tall I am. I would stand up. They asked me, 'Is there another Kinez?'

2 I said as far as I can remember at that time I couldn't remember -- there

3 wasn't another Kinez in my unit. They asked me how tall I am. I said

4 that I was 188 metres tall, in my boots I'm 1.91 metres."

5 This is on page 18, Your Honours:

6 "I sat down. We began to talk about Ovcara, about all of that.

7 When I made my statement, they asked would I be able to dare to take a

8 lie detector test. I said, 'Why wouldn't I dare?' Then they refused

9 that."

10 And then the President of the Trial Chamber interrupted him and

11 said:

12 "Well, let's not discuss that."

13 And that it's very characteristic that he was interrupted at that

14 particular point in time. Then he wanted to explain:

15 "I went and took the lie detector test there. I was questioned

16 twice. Then I was taken back again and they asked me again, 'You must

17 recall that there was another Kinez.' I said, 'I don't know.'

18 Mr. Vasovic then told me that he had information that there were seven

19 men with the 'Kinez' nickname. Seven men with the same nickname of

20 Kinez," and so on and so forth.

21 He's simply telling a true anecdote here, how General Vasiljevic

22 said that Kinez was an exceptionally short man, the police came to arrest

23 him and Kinez is there 1.90 centimetres [as interpreted] tall? Is this a

24 surprise to you, that somebody is describing Predrag Milojevic, called

25 Kinez as a person who was exceptionally short?

Page 6689

1 A. I don't know -- I know that the Kinez that we're talking about is

2 1.9 metres tall. This is the one that I know. I don't know of any Kinez

3 who is short. If you're thinking of any Serb with the nickname Kinez,

4 then I really don't know.

5 Q. As far as I know, there's no person who had the nickname of Kinez

6 except Predrag Milojevic. I never heard of such a person.

7 A. No, neither did I.

8 Q. All right. Witness VS-002, I would like to put several questions

9 to you which I believe you will probably insist you answer in private

10 session, so I'm just letting the Trial Chamber know this in advance. I

11 wouldn't wish in any way to -- well, before that, I would actually like

12 to put some other questions, before we move to closed session, if you

13 permit me. I just failed to ask you one thing. I've just remembered it.

14 It's indisputable that a serious crime occurred at Ovcara?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in this crime, a certain number of people took part. We

17 don't know exactly how many of them, but a certain number of people did

18 participate in that. Among them, mostly the inhabitants of Vukovar were

19 recognised. There were some others as well; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You agree with that. Before the serious crime occurred, there

22 was cruel treatment, a lot of hate was expressed. Tell me, you knew some

23 of those people who participated in that, who generated this hatred. Did

24 many of them have private reasons to express such hatred; that, for

25 example, Croat soldiers, Ustashas in Vukovar, killed one of theirs,

Page 6690

1 burned their house, robbed them or anything like that? Do you have any

2 knowledge about that?

3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. If

4 Mr. Seselj wishes to evoke some names, he should first establish whether

5 the accused knows them and what he knows of what these people had in

6 mind. This question is general, it is vague. It calls for speculation.

7 One has to be more precise.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please try to rephrase these

11 questions. Just take the witness to the example and then ask him

12 questions.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll talk about his personal

14 example in private session, because he was a victim of the war in Vukovar

15 as well. I know that, and I have reliable data to that effect. But let

16 me ask him in open session.

17 Q. Does he know that the Croatian authorities, the police, the

18 paramilitary formations, and among them the ZNG, so-called, the

19 National Guards Corps and other formations, that in the

20 Vukovar Municipality area, before the Guards Brigade arrived, that they

21 had killed about 150 Serb civilians? Do you know that piece of

22 information?

23 A. I know that there was killing. I never knew the exact number.

24 Q. But you confirm that there was large-scale killing?

25 A. Yes. People were taken away, and they never returned.

Page 6691

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Now we could move into

2 private session to protect the witness's identity.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please,

4 Mr. Registrar.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6692











11 Pages 6692-6703 redacted. Private session.















Page 6704

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you try playing the video,

12 and if that's not it, then we're not going to dwell on it any longer.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not the video clip, obviously.

15 I asked for a group of soldiers marching, and in front of them is a

16 Chetnik flag, and in the middle, among the soldiers with helmets, there

17 is a man with a hat. But never mind. Since the OTP hasn't found this,

18 I'll move on.

19 Q. Mr. VS-002, do you know anything about the political situation in

20 the area of the Vukovar Municipality in the beginning of 1991? This was

21 after the elections in Croatia, when the HDZ reinforced their power.

22 A. Well, look, I was not in Vukovar at that moment, but I know that

23 the situation changed drastically, because I spent a weekend or two

24 there. All of a sudden, Serbian and Croatian cafes appeared separately,

25 so it was suggested to me that I be careful about where I go out. And

Page 6705

1 this was said to me several times.

2 Q. You know where Trpinjska Cesta is in Borovo Naselje, I assume?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know of the meeting of the HDZ at Trpinjska Cesta in

5 February 1991, that was called by Tomislav Mercep and was attended by

6 Vladimir Seks, Ivan Vekic, and Branimir Glavas from Zagreb?

7 A. I know that the HDZ had celebrations and that they had meetings

8 and rallies in villages, and that they roast meat. But I don't know

9 about that particular one.

10 Q. Do you know that they made a decision to cleanse Vukovar of

11 Serbs? First of all, that all Serbs be removed from political and other

12 positions, that Serb citizens be intimidated in order to move out, and if

13 all of that fails, then to start with physical liquidations? Do you know

14 that that was the decision made by the HDZ at that meeting of theirs?

15 A. Look, I don't know about that meeting, but sometime around

16 then -- well, before the war, on television there was that programme

17 about the arrest of that general of theirs, Djuro Decak. When the

18 intelligence people recorded him with Spegelj, what should be done to the

19 Serb people, that's what they were discussing, the Serb leaders, that

20 they were all supposed to be removed, killed, things along those lines.

21 Q. Do you know that already towards the end of 1990, the massive

22 arming of members of the HDZ started, that automatic rifles and

23 ammunition were distributed to them?

24 A. I heard about that.

25 Q. Do you know that their volunteer units and paramilitary

Page 6706

1 formations were reviewed, and that this review was attended by 2.000

2 people in February of 1991 in Borovo Naselje?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. If you don't know, just tell me briefly that you

5 don't know. Do you know of the large-scale operation of removing all

6 ethnic Serbs from Borovo?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I assume you've heard of Tomislav Mercep?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you heard of his crimes against the Serb civilian

11 population?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know that he brutally openly committed crimes to such an

14 extent that the Croatian authorities started minding and Marin Vidic Bili

15 asked the authorities from Zagreb to have him replaced?

16 A. I heard something along those lines, but later after the war.

17 Q. Did you hear that he caused a big massacre of Serbs in

18 Pakracka Poljana and Western Slavonia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know who Blago Zadro was?

21 A. He was some general of theirs from Trpinjska Cesta, if I'm not

22 mistaken. I cannot guarantee anything.

23 Q. A general from Trpinjska Cesta, so he was one of their

24 paramilitary leaders; is that right?

25 A. I think so, yes.

Page 6707

1 Q. Did you hear him speak openly about all the Serbs who do not

2 accept the Croatian Constitution having to leave Borovo Naselje one way

3 or the other?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. There was a large Serbian population in Borovo Naselje; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you hear of the Serb Zdravko Egic, the director-general of

8 Borovo?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was replaced only on account of the fact that he was a Serb?

11 A. Look, I wasn't in Vukovar in 1991, practically, not until

12 September, so ...

13 Q. Do you know who Marin Vidic Bili is?

14 A. I heard of him.

15 Q. He was the deputy mayor in the municipality, and then after

16 Dokmanovic was told to go away, he took all power?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know that he replaced all the Serb cadre in Vukovar?

19 A. I heard about that.

20 Q. Do you know that he personally replaced Dr. Rade Popovic from his

21 position as the administrator of the Vukovar Hospital?

22 A. I didn't know that he personally replaced him, but I knew that

23 Rade Petrovic [as interpreted] was replaced.

24 Q. Do you know that all Serb police officers were dismissed from the

25 Vukovar police?

Page 6708

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Do you know that the reserve police forces were augmented by

3 admitting many Croatian civilians, including notorious criminals armed

4 with the latest weapons?

5 A. Yes, yes, I know that.

6 Q. Do you know that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know that armed incidents were provoked in order to

9 intimidate these Serbs in Vukovar villages?

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the names of all

11 the villages.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't object to the question,

14 but there are a series of questions that are put to the witness. We

15 don't know what time-frame they relate to, the attacks on villages. When

16 exactly did all this happen?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please clarify

18 this. Please ask -- please specify and ask whether this happened before

19 the Serbs entered Vukovar.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we clarified. We

21 clarified that all of this is happening before the armed conflict between

22 the Guards Brigade and the Croat rebels. All of this preceded the war.

23 This is the year 1991, and everything is happening before the actual war,

24 before the JNA got involved in the conflict at all. We started from

25 February 1991. We haven't even reached the summer yet.

Page 6709

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I know that, Mr. Seselj, but

2 the public at large might not be aware of this. Some people might have

3 questions about it, so please try and be accurate. You list some of the

4 events that took place, but you could perhaps just sum it up in one

5 sentence and ask the question which you are undoubtedly going to have to

6 ask him.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I promised that I'm going to cut

8 this short. I'm constantly putting questions and that I'm going to cut

9 short my cross-examination, so all I want is "yes" or "no." I'm going

10 very fast, so let's not waste time, so that I don't change my mind about

11 my previous promise that I will finish at 1.00. I'm not using almost a

12 full hour of the time that I had allotted. So the Prosecutor is doing

13 this on purpose.

14 Q. Do you know about the mining of Serbian catering and other

15 facilities in the area of Vukovar?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Do you know that Belgrade newspapers were systematically seized

18 when they arrived in Vukovar so that it would not be sold at the

19 newspaper stand, so that the Serbs could not read the Serbian press?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. All right, you don't know about that. Do you know that news

22 stands that carried Serbian press were mined, or bombed, or blown up?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. All right. Do you know about a major police action in

25 Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991?

Page 6710

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. Do you know that before that, an accord was reached to go for a

3 favourable solution of the problem, to lift the Serbian blockades --

4 barricades around the village and to restore normal life?

5 A. I don't know about that.

6 Q. You don't know about that, but you know that Borovo Selo was a

7 majority Serbian settlement, almost 90 per cent was Serbs?

8 A. Yes, I know that.

9 Q. Do you know that the Croat police officers were defeated there,

10 and there were a large number of victims there?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the next

13 question.

14 A. I don't know that.

15 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'm only asking you this because I'm especially proud of this

17 victory, but I'm not -- it doesn't matter if you don't know it.

18 Do you know who Marin and Ivan Pliso are?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Who are they?

21 A. I know Marin Pliso. The other name is not known to me.

22 Marin Pliso had a reputation -- or it was said about him that he had

23 imported weapons, Kalashnikovs from Hungary.

24 Q. Do you know that together with Ivica Franjic, Draca Mrkobasic,

25 Josip Gazo, the Mulnar brothers, Joza Horvat, Josip Mazar, and

Page 6711

1 Ivica Kasalo and others inflicted terror against the Serbian population

2 in the Vukovar Municipality?

3 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

4 Q. All right, you're aware of that. Very well. Do you know that a

5 large unit of the Vukovar police administration was engaged in the action

6 of harassing Serb citizens in Borovo Naselje on the 4th of July, 1991,

7 and that Zeljko Marusic, Zoran Gotal, Ante Roso and Blago Zadro were in

8 command of that unit?

9 A. I don't know about that.

10 Q. Do you know about the marking of Serb houses, clearly -- clear

11 markings of Serb houses in order to frighten the Serbs who lived in them

12 and to incite Croat extremists to harass and rob the Serbs who lived

13 there and to perpetrate violence against them?

14 A. No, I don't know about that.

15 Q. Do you know that these people organised illegal entry-and-search

16 actions of Serb houses, sporadic arbitrary fire, that they harassed them

17 mentally and physically, that they robbed Serbian property, illegally

18 deprived them of their freedom, and killed Serb citizens?

19 A. Yes, I know that.

20 Q. Do you know that Dragan Mijatovic, called Macak, and Stojan

21 Stojanovic from Borovo Naselje were killed?

22 A. No, I don't know those people.

23 Q. Do you know that a large number of citizens of Serb ethnicity

24 were killed and that their bodies were thrown into the Danube?

25 A. I heard about that, but I can't say that I know about it for

Page 6712

1 sure. I did hear of it, though.

2 Q. Did you hear when Serbs began to flee from Borovo Naselje

3 en masse to Borovo Selo, that in the cornfields between those two

4 settlements, the Croat paramilitaries and police officers killed a number

5 of Serbs, and that the corpses of those Serbs remained in the cornfield,

6 and that a stench was spreading from these corpses, causing additional

7 fear among the Serbs? Do you know about that?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Did you hear of any of these Serbs, Blagojevic, [indiscernible],

10 Uros Tomic --

11 A. Vorkapic is known to me.

12 Q. Do you know that without any reason they were searched, beaten

13 and taken to the Osijek prison and that no legal documents were issued

14 against them?

15 A. I heard something, but this was a long time ago.

16 Q. Do you know about the mining of Serb houses, them being blown up

17 and demolished?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Do you know that the houses of Serb Uros Tomic, Jovica Brdenic

20 [phoen], Svetko Tomic, Marko Milivojevic, Jovan Tintor, Bajo Blagojevic,

21 Mico Vorkapic, Mileta Skeledzija [phoen] and others were blown up and

22 demolished?

23 A. I don't know that, specifically. Probably this did happen.

24 Q. You don't know any of the names?

25 A. I don't know those people.

Page 6713

1 Q. All right. You don't know those people, but you did hear of it,

2 about this blowing up and looting of houses?

3 A. Yes, I did hear about that.

4 Q. Do you know about the Borovo Naselje areas called Budzak and

5 Kriva Bara?

6 A. Yes, I heard about those areas of that town.

7 Q. Do you know that in July 1991, a pogrom was carried out against

8 the -- of the Serbian population?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. All right. If you don't know, I'm not going to -- do you know

11 that Kapel [phoen] Milica and Golub Marceta were killed, Andja Akif, and

12 these were elderly and weak people, [indiscernible] and Bozo Lukic's

13 wife, and "N. Lukic," unknown, I don't know her first name.

14 A. Look, I really don't know what was happening there, especially

15 not in Borovo. I know roughly what was going on there, that Serbs were

16 harassed, but I don't know any incidents by name.

17 Q. Have you heard of Luzac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that there was a large pogrom committed there of

20 Serbs?

21 A. Yes, I know that there were problems there, that the Serbs there

22 had problems, but I don't really know exactly what happened.

23 Q. Do you know that the commander of that pogrom action was

24 Tomislav Mercep?

25 A. No, I didn't know that.

Page 6714

1 Q. Do you know who Ivica Franjic Srna was?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Very well. Then we're going to move to Dalmatinska Street, which

4 is more familiar to you; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know who Josip Tomasic is?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know that all houses on Dalmatinska Street were searched,

9 robbed, that Serbs were detained, taken to the police administration

10 where they were beaten and some of them were killed?

11 A. Look, I wasn't in Vukovar until the end of September 1991, so I'm

12 not familiar with the details.

13 Q. All right. I'm not insisting on anything that you don't know.

14 Feel free to tell me if you know or you don't know. These are -- this is

15 information of mine that can be used in the cross-examination of any

16 witness, and none of that can be disputed. I'm just seeing if you know

17 any of this or not.

18 Did you hear of Serbs called Nedeljko Turukalo, Petar Turukovic

19 [phoen], Cedo Latinovic, Jovo Dragosavac, Petar Zoric, his wife,

20 Lazar Ristic, Drago Grujic?

21 A. I heard of many of them, yes.

22 Q. Do you know that they were all killed in Vukovar's

23 Dalmatinska Street?

24 A. I don't know if this happened in Dalmatinska Street, but I do

25 know that they were killed.

Page 6715

1 Q. Very well. I mean it's not "very well." It's a sad matter. I'm

2 just using that as an expression. Did you ever heard of Drazen Gazo?

3 A. No, I don't know him.

4 Q. Did you hear that Serb restaurants and shops were demolished in

5 Vukovar, itself; for example, the Migros shop owned by Branko Sucevic;

6 the Restaurant Grmes, also owned by Branko Sucevic; Restaurant Royal,

7 owned by Bozo Sucevic; Restaurant Maci Raj, owned by Zivko Strika;

8 Restaurant Veselj Bosanci, owned by Djordje Pavlovic, and then that

9 passenger vehicles were blown up, the car of Vlado Tepavac, for example,

10 that Branko Sucevic was killed, and so on and so forth?

11 A. I know of those restaurants, I know that they were blown up, but

12 I didn't know who the owners were by name. I know just that they were

13 Serb owned.

14 Q. The JNA investigative organs established that this was committed

15 by Drazen Gazo, that's why I asked if you knew about him. This happened

16 in June/July 1991. Did you hear of Zdravko Komsic, Stejpan Mackovic and

17 Ivan Mikulic?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Did you know that in the village of Sremski Cakovci, they opened

20 fire at the restaurants owned by Serbs there on the 29th of June, 1991?

21 And then in Sotin they killed Mihalj Nadj and Joco Ivkovic?

22 A. I didn't know that.

23 Q. They killed Mihalj Nadj by mistake, thinking that he was an

24 ethnic Serb, but he was actually an ethnic Hungarian. Did you hear of

25 Franjo Bracko [phoen], called Brada?

Page 6716

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. Do you know that Marin Vidic is from Lovac?

3 A. I didn't know him before the war.

4 Q. You heard about that crime. A lot was written about this in the

5 press, about the Serbs committing the killing of Croat citizens in the

6 village of Lovac?

7 A. I heard about that, but I don't know any specifics.

8 Q. Do you know that this was preceded by a Croat crime, when 33

9 ethnic Serbs were killed in that same village of Lovac?

10 A. I did hear about that, but I heard it from others. I heard talk,

11 but I don't know anything specific about this.

12 Q. Do you know that the Croatian authorities, in late August 1991,

13 in order to attack a JNA barracks, sent to Vukovar from Zagreb Mile

14 Dedakovic, who was previously a JNA officer, his nickname was Jastreb, as

15 well as Branko Borkovic, called Mladi Jastreb, who was also a JNA

16 officer?

17 A. I know that they were members of the defence in Vukovar during

18 the war, but I don't know when they were sent to Vukovar from Zagreb.

19 Q. Do you know that they formed four ZNG battalions with Marin Vidic

20 in Vukovar; one was in Borovo Naselje, one was in Mitnica, one in Lusac

21 and Sajmiste, and one was not linked to any particular part of town?

22 A. Well, I wasn't even interested in that kind of information.

23 Q. Did you hear of Ferdinand Lukic, called Jeja?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Let me remind you, he's an international criminal, smuggler of

Page 6717

1 stolen cars abroad and in the area of the former SFRY, there was a search

2 warrant issued for him by international police forces?

3 A. Well, I try not to socialise with criminals.

4 Q. Well, that's nice, but sometimes criminals take the main word in

5 society, and then we are faced to deal with them, aren't we? Have you

6 heard of legionaire Anto Roso?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know about the castle of Count Eltz in Vukovar?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. This is a protected cultural monument, isn't it?

11 A. It should be that, yes.

12 Q. Well, the legionaires of Ante Roso then occupied that entire

13 castle. Do you know that there were some legionaires in Count Eltz's

14 castle during the war?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Do you know perhaps that some Croatian paramilitary soldiers used

17 some anti-hail or hail-breaking instruments and used them to fire against

18 the Vukovar citizens?

19 A. No, I didn't hear about that.

20 Q. All right. Very well. Did you know that in 1991, pursuant to

21 orders of Marin Vidic and Bojkovic, an ZNG military police formation was

22 established?

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. Did you hear that they even had military police?

25 A. Well, no, this is the first time that I'm hearing this now. I'm

Page 6718

1 not interested. I wasn't interested in all the things on the Croat side.

2 Q. Well, I'm not insisting on this. What you know, you can confirm.

3 What you don't know, you can just say so and everything will be fine. I

4 just want to cover as many details as possible and to see what you know

5 and what you don't know. If you don't know, it's not a problem.

6 Somebody else will know.

7 Do you know that on the 3rd of September, the barracks of the JNA

8 in Vukovar were blockaded pursuant to Marin Vidic's order, and he was a

9 special emissary of the Croatian government, and the electricity, the

10 water and the telephone lines to the barracks were cut?

11 A. I don't know how this was blockaded, but I know that the blockade

12 was imposed because after that the army lifted the blockade sometime in

13 late September.

14 Q. Do you know that immediately after the blockade, since you don't

15 know any details of the blockade, the barracks was fired at from all

16 sides, from all available weapons?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

18 witness.

19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know that after the barracks was blockaded, the Serbs

21 suffered the most; they were arrested for no reason, they were spent --

22 they were put into prison, they were tortured, harassed, many of them

23 were taken to the Danube where they were killed, that some of them were

24 killed in the yard of the kindergarten, on the street, in shelters, and

25 so on and forth?

Page 6719

1 A. Yes, I do know about that.

2 Q. You say know about that; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know that not even to this day is it known what happened

5 to some of the Vukovar Serbs and that there are quite a number like that?

6 A. Yes, they are listed as missing.

7 Q. Do you know that the captured members of the JNA were killed

8 straight away, even if some of them were wounded?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Have you ever -- did you hear of the fact that a JNA member's

11 head was cut off, that there was an incident like that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And what about the killing by flames from a Brena [phoen] that

14 were used by some Croatian guardsmen to kill?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right, let's move on. Do you know that the military courts

17 of the JNA, immediately after the liberation of Vukovar, brought criminal

18 proceedings to bear against members of the Croatian paramilitary

19 formations, members of the ZNG, National Guards Corps, the police and so

20 on?

21 A. Yes, I do know about that. I'm not sure whether they were

22 military courts, but I do know that certain lawsuits were instigated.

23 Q. Did you hear about Tomas [indiscernible]?

24 A. No.

25 Q. They were commanders, the commanders of some paramilitary units,

Page 6720

1 and accused of crimes committed in Dalmatinska Street. You haven't heard

2 about them?

3 A. No.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 So, Mr. Seselj, if you really want a name to be taken down in the

22 transcript, say it very slowly. Otherwise, it has absolutely no use.

23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. VS-002, do you know who Zdenko Novak is, nickname Miner?

25 A. No.

Page 6721

1 Q. You didn't hear of him mining Serb houses around Vukovar and

2 placing mines in Serb settlements so that the civilians would be

3 affected, without any military need?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know about the mining of some Serbian settlements to cause

6 casualties?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I have here quite a lot of information about Croats from Vukovar

9 against whom legal proceedings were taken before the military court, but

10 do you know what happened to all of them afterwards?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. What?

13 A. Milan Panic freed them all and had them exchanged.

14 Q. Do you know that with the first plane, the greatest Croatian

15 criminals from Vukovar, including Vesna Bosanac and Marin Vidic Bili,

16 that General Aleksandar Vasiljevic went to Zagreb personally with them?

17 A. No, I did not know that.

18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Well, you learned something along

19 the way. Mr. VS-002, that completes my cross-examination, unless the

20 Prosecution can offer up some videotapes or photographs, if they've found

21 them subsequently, or perhaps the Registrar, if you have anything at your

22 disposal, but I don't want to go into detail about the Croatian criminals

23 from Vukovar because the witness confirmed a large number of crimes that

24 took place. He confirmed that. And as we're dealing with crimes that

25 are indisputed and which cannot be wiped out by anything now, I have no

Page 6722

1 reason to tire him with any more details.

2 Can you tell me if you have managed to find some material that

3 could be presented now in the form of photographs, tapes and so on?

4 Nothing, right.

5 Tell me, please, just one more thing, a few details?

6 Q. You said, during the examination-in-chief, that you considered

7 the cockade to be a symbol of affiliation to the Chetnik movement. Did

8 you mean the Serbian Chetnik Movement, which existed as a section within

9 the frameworks of the Serbian Radical Party, or did you mean in general

10 terms the Chetnik movement as an abstract concept, of an undefined

11 concept, but rallying people of the same political and ideological ilk?

12 A. Well, it's like this: I considered that no political party can

13 appropriate the Serbian Chetnik Movement as being its own. Every Serb

14 nationalist has the right, in case of war, to be a Chetnik. That's my

15 vision of things. And I also consider that the Chetniks were -- are a

16 military, not a political organisation. I think that would be my answer.

17 Q. Well, if they're organised, they can be an organisation of war

18 veterans as well?

19 A. Yes, that is possible.

20 Q. Or they can be the descendants of the one-time Chetniks, such as

21 the people from the -- the fighters from the Salonika front and things

22 like that, their descendants?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So we can't limit that to soldiers, can we? It can apply to

25 various categories of civilians; would you agree with me there?

Page 6723

1 A. Yes, categories of civilians, if they were Chetniks or if they

2 have any links to Chetniks.

3 Q. Even if it is a freedom-loving idea that guides them; right?

4 A. Well, I don't think I can agree with you fully on that score.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. In order to allow the

6 Prosecution to have their time, and not to have to come back here from

7 afar, thank you, VS-002. I cannot appraise and evaluate your testimony

8 in total, because I don't know about many of the things that you spoke

9 about, but I think that your testimony was very honourable, especially

10 with respect to those parts of your statement that can relate to the

11 indictment against me, and I wish to state that publicly. You really did

12 testify honorably in that respect.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 With regard to redirect, Mr. Dutertre, you have 20 minutes.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 I will try to be quick.

18 Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:

19 Q. Witness 002, page 6080 and 6066 of the transcript, in answering a

20 question put by the accused, you said that up until the last moment, the

21 various members of the volunteers and members of the TO present on the

22 field did not know what was going to happen with the prisoners. On

23 page 6547 of the transcript, I was trying to understand. Why did you

24 help Perkan and Berghofer, and I asked you what you thought that would

25 happen to them, and you said -- you knew very well at that point, didn't

Page 6724

1 you, that they were going to be executed, and this is why you took them

2 out from --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get where.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. I think that this is an

5 unbelievable example of manipulation with witness testimony. We should

6 differentiate between what the witness's opinion was, looking at it from

7 this point in time. When he says, "I don't think they would be alive

8 today," and what he thought at the time when he quite simply wanted to

9 take these people away to a safe place, to avoid them being mistreated,

10 and I don't think this manipulation should be allowed.

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No manipulation whatsoever. I

12 only quoted the words of the witness. And maybe it's something he may

13 have thought later. And my question was very clear, that is, the

14 question that I have here before me.

15 Q. You knew very well at that time, didn't you, that Perkan and

16 Berghofer would be executed if you didn't take them out of the hangar?

17 A. Well, it's like this. Look, my father told me to help if I was

18 able to Berghofer or Perkan, so when I saw them at Ovcara, I did my best

19 to help them. At the time, I could not have even assumed that all those

20 who had been captured there would be killed. But when you help someone,

21 you try and help him so as to avoid that that person be mistreated. So,

22 quite simply --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm only intervening

24 because I wish to save time, and also it's in the interests of justice.

25 The interests of justice supersedes the interests of the parties.

Page 6725

1 In answering a question put by the Prosecutor, you said that you

2 helped Perkan and Berghofer. What we would like to know is the

3 following: When you helped them, what kind of help did you do? Is it

4 because you knew them and you helped them, or in your mind you thought

5 that something horrible would happen and you wanted to make sure that

6 they would not be executed, and you wanted to do everything in order to

7 take them out of the hangar. Do you see the difference here? You can

8 say many years after, "This is what I thought would happen," but what we

9 would really like to know is to find out at the time, on that particular

10 day, at that very moment, what was in your mind?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, at that point in time, well,

12 it was the first time that during the war there was mass killing taking

13 place. So before that, it couldn't have even entered my head that

14 anything like that could happen. I couldn't imagine anything like that.

15 Quite simply, I was saving them from being mistreated. It never occurred

16 to me that they would be killed. Had somebody asked me before, "What do

17 you think is going to happen," I would say, "Probably they'll be

18 interrogated, perhaps somebody might die during that questioning," but I

19 didn't think they'd all be killed, personally. And if that was to be

20 done that it was going to be done by the military court, because when the

21 army comes in, they have the right to court-martial, so as villains, and

22 that was the law in the SFRY, there were rebels against the regular

23 state, they would be court-martialed, and this would be done in a legal

24 way. They would accuse him for treachery against the state, high

25 treason, and then that would have been the result.

Page 6726

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Dutertre.

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. On page 6066 of the transcript, you said that Mr. Miroljub

4 Vujovic maybe knew as a commander, but not other people who were there

5 knew about it, and you also said there was a lot of coming and going, and

6 you yourself were gone on two occasions, and according to you, for

7 several hours. Given all this movement, you were not able to know, given

8 that all the people from the Serbian side were present in Ovcara, you

9 were not able to know what they knew of what was going to happen?

10 A. I absolutely agree with you. Quite right.

11 Q. On page 6572 of the transcript, you mentioned that the official

12 announcement of the massacres in Ovcara was made rather late in the day.

13 This official information, I think, needs to be clarified.

14 On page 6573 of the transcript, as regards the group of people

15 which you separated from the hangar when you got back from Velepromet,

16 who boarded a tractor, you said that you had the premonition -- you had a

17 premonition. You felt that something ominous was going to happen, but

18 that you couldn't imagine that they would be executed. And prior to

19 that, 6548, lines 13 to 15, you said that you had understood that

20 Miroljub Vujovic had used you to separate the prisoners on his behalf, so

21 that these could be executed. This is how things happened. It is then

22 that you understood, when you separated the prisoners, that they were

23 going to be executed?

24 A. I think that I understood only when I separated the second group.

25 When I separated the first group, I went back inside, and it was only

Page 6727

1 when I took out the second group that a light flashed and I realised what

2 was happening. And then I went to talk to Miroljub and asked him whether

3 there was the possibility of me not doing that anymore.

4 Q. Therefore, you asked him to stop doing that, because you had

5 clearly understood that the fate of these people was to be executed?

6 A. Yes. The only thing I didn't know was whether there was the

7 possibility of somebody with more authority appearing and putting a stop

8 to this, with greater authority than me.

9 Q. Let me now move on to the visit, Mr. Seselj's visit to Vukovar.

10 On page 6608 of the transcript, the accused put questions to you. He

11 wanted to know when he visited Vukovar, whether it was possible to gather

12 an assembly in order to deliver a speech given the security situation and

13 the artillery fire. You answered by saying that it was not possible at

14 that time.

15 When you later went to Kameni's -- Stanko Vujanovic's house, when

16 you received the cockade --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor does not have the

18 right to put things that way. The witness said that that was in

19 [indiscernible], and he mustn't mix that with Vujanovic's house.

20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Very well. I didn't remember.

21 That had escaped me, and I thank him for having specified this.

22 Q. When you were in Kameni's house, were there any security

23 problems, as far as you could see?

24 A. I don't understand what you mean by "security problems".

25 Q. Was there any artillery fire at that time, still, any sniper

Page 6728

1 fire? What do you remember?

2 A. No, there wasn't any problem in that respect.

3 Q. Thank you. On page 6608, you say that you had not heard of a

4 speech or a gathering of soldiers to hear a speech delivered by

5 Mr. Seselj. You said that you'd heard about someone who was -- someone

6 whom you knew well. In light of what had happened to this person who was

7 fairly close to you, you were not concerned about anything else, you

8 weren't interested in being made aware of the fact that Mr. Seselj had

9 addressed an assembly of people, because your state of mind was such that

10 you weren't really interested in that?

11 A. Well, it's like this: At the time, I really wasn't interested in

12 any political matters, precisely because all that had happened, so

13 that -- that I was under stress, that's true, I was.

14 Q. And when you say because of what happened to you, you mean what

15 had happened to this person who was close to you; is that what you have

16 in mind?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Very well. Do you know whether the 80th Motorised Brigade of

19 Kragujevac, was in Vukovar during the conflict in 1991?

20 A. Now, whether that was exactly the 80th Motorised Brigade, but

21 they were people from Kragujevac, I am aware of that.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. The Prosecutor is

23 expanding the re-examination. The 80th Kragujevac Motorised Brigade

24 wasn't brought up either in chief or in the cross-examination. I don't

25 mind that it's mentioned but I have to reprimand the Prosecutor and tell

Page 6729

1 him to stick to the rules. We talked about that in some other instances,

2 and so I am raising the objection for reasons of principle, that the

3 brigade wasn't mentioned either in chief or during the cross-examination.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now on the basis of the

5 cross-examination, what entitles you to discuss this?

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, the chain of command and the

7 hierarchy.

8 Q. Witness 002, do you know the name and the rank of the commander

9 of the 80th Motorised Brigade?

10 A. I have absolutely no idea.

11 Q. Do you know who Colonel Milorad Vojnovic is?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is impermissible,

13 because this gives me the right to cross-examine with respect to any new

14 matters that the Prosecutor raises in redirect, and how am I going to

15 have time now to re-examine?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please allow me to

17 say that I disagree with you for the following reason: You, yourself,

18 during your cross-examination, you highlighted the possible presence of

19 the colonel who had been ordered to go to Ovcara. He had received

20 instructions from a general. Perhaps the Prosecution does not like your

21 version of the story. In that case, the Prosecution, by putting a

22 question during in redirect, he is entitled to discuss this, and this

23 colonel in question could be the person who was part of the 80th

24 Motorised Brigade. Why wouldn't he be entitled to ask a question, like

25 you were allowed, and afterwards you can call your witness to put --

Page 6730

1 witnesses to put questions about this colonel. But the Prosecution may

2 think that this is the same colonel and not your colonel.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

5 Q. On page 6660 of the transcript, you were questioned at length

6 about the presence of a colonel and a captain of the JNA in Ovcara, and

7 according to your testimony, you said that you thought the second person

8 was a captain. And then you were asked whether you had seen these two

9 colonels before, and you said, "No."

10 So this is my question: You heard someone call this person

11 "Colonel," and another person whose rank you cannot identify, and you

12 believe the second person was a captain, but it certainly wasn't two

13 colonels you saw on that same day, is it?

14 A. Correct.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] One last point, Your Honour, just

16 very briefly. I'd like to address the issue of artillery and the way the

17 town was taken.

18 Q. You said, Witness 002, that the town could have been taken in one

19 day, and that the artillery kept on shelling the town, sometimes

20 preventing you from moving forward. Were you trained in any way in the

21 use of artillery fire during combat operations?

22 A. I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. What training do

23 you mean?

24 Q. Did you attend a training course or anything of that kind on how

25 to use artillery fire when a town is being taken?

Page 6731

1 A. No.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Obviously, the

3 Prosecutor is trying to provoke the witness, because not even Theunens,

4 the Prosecution expert witness, could say that. He didn't know the

5 difference between an automatic rifle and a submachine gun. So this has

6 no sense.

7 In the cross-examination, we talked about what the soldiers said,

8 what their comments were about this artillery fire.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you did your

10 military service in the JNA, the witness did his military service in the

11 JNA, so the question that could be of interest to all of us is: When you

12 do your military service, are you trained in any way in the use of

13 artillery weapons? He will say, "Yes," "No," "I don't know."

14 The second question: When he was seconded to this unit in

15 Vukovar, did he receive any kind of training on how to use artillery

16 weapons; yes, no, we don't know. This is a purely technical matter.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I believe the witness, on

19 page 100, line 1, that he had received no training. And just one last

20 question.

21 Q. Were you present when the orders -- when the orders to use

22 artillery weapons were given to the artillery unit, and did you attend

23 the officers' meetings?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No further questions, Your Honour.

Page 6732

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before adjourning

2 today, I would like to clarify something in light of the request you made

3 this morning, but I would like to address this in private session. This

4 is not going to take -- this is not going to be long.

5 Registrar, can we move into private session, please.

6 [Private session]

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Page 6733

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, very well. We

21 are back in open session. Today's hearing has just ended.

22 I would like to thank, on my behalf and on behalf of my

23 colleagues, the witness coming here and testifying, but I believe that

24 Mr. Mundis wanted to say something.

25 MR. MUNDIS: I did, if I could before we adjourn, concerning next

Page 6734

1 week, in the event the witness scheduled for whatever reason is not

2 available. We do have two backup witnesses available for next week, but

3 I again would ask that we go into private session, perhaps that this

4 witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's lower the

6 blinds, and in future please raise these housekeeping matters at the

7 beginning of the hearing and not at the end of the hearing, so that we do

8 not go overboard.

9 Let's move into a private session right now.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 [Private session]

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Page 6735

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're back into

11 open session. Today's hearing is adjourned. We will resume next

12 Tuesday, and the hearing will take place in the afternoon.

13 So the hearing will take place at 2.15 next Tuesday.

14 Have a nice weekend.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

17 May, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.