Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7026

 1                           Tuesday, 20 May 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.30 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today, we are Tuesday, the 20th of May, 2008.

12             I would like to greet the witness.  I would like to greet the

13     OTP, Mr. Seselj, as well as all the people assisting us.

14             The Prosecutor must finish his examination-in-chief.  You have

15     half an hour left, so I shall give you the floor.

16             MR. DUTERTRE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           WITNESS:  ASIM ALIC (Resumed)

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Examination by Mr. Dutertre:  [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, Mr. Alic.

21             Mr. Alic, last week we addressed various --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is really an outrage.  The

23     Prosecutor says, "Good morning," to the Trial Chamber, to Mr. Alic, and

24     nothing to me, he says nothing to me.  Well, is that the way to behave.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't have to say hello to

Page 7027

 1     everyone, Mr. Prosecutor.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch what Mr. Dutertre

 3     said.

 4             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Last week, we addressed your personal history, the forces in

 6     Zvornik in 1991 and 1992, the various political forces in Zvornik during

 7     this period, the military forces present around Zvornik, the most salient

 8     events which you remembered between October 1991 and April 1992,

 9     presented to you in a chronological order, when possible.  And, lastly,

10     the arrest of four Serbs in April 1992.  That's what we were talking

11     about when we left off last week, and we addressed in detail the

12     situation of the two first men, the Vuckovic brothers.  You clearly told

13     us that they both had membership cards of the SRS and the Serbian Chetnik

14     Movement.

15             I would like to address the issue of the membership cards of the

16     SRS.  You mentioned this in 1996 already, and you mentioned that these

17     people had these cards.  Do you remember having testified in Belgrade in

18     2006?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness never spoke

20     about the IDs of the Serbian Radical Party in 1996, but exclusively of

21     the Chetnik Movement.  He started speaking about the IDs of the Serbian

22     Radical Party in the proofing session, as the Prosecutor told me in the

23     minutes from that proofing session, so the Prosecutor must not use that.

24     And I'm going to prove, using that, that this witness is giving false

25     testimony, because neither in 1996 or 1997 was there a membership card of

Page 7028

 1     the Serbian Radical Party.

 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I object to the use of the word,

 3     false witness.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're going so

 5     fast that it's difficult for us to keep up.  And you talked about false

 6     witnesses, but there are intervals in the middle which haven't been

 7     addressed.  I'm trying to understand when you talk about a false witness,

 8     and I'm trying to understand what the Prosecutor would like to establish.

 9             According to what I've understood, the witness testified in

10     Belgrade in 1996, I believe.  Is that right?

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say is that last

12     week the witness explained to us that in 1996, he had told the

13     investigator that these two cases existed.  Then I started addressing the

14     testimony of this gentleman in Belgrade in 1996.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor is

16     telling us that in 1996, the witness had spoken to the investigator about

17     these two cards, the Chetnik Movement card and SRS card.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, correct two cases by two

19     cards.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] ...  since he does not know how

21     this was translated, because you yourself highlighted this on a several

22     of occasions.  We have your statements, ones you made to the

23     investigators, and these are signed in English.  And since the witness

24     does not speak English, he may not have been made aware of the accuracy

25     of his words translated into English as concern these two cards.  And

Page 7029

 1     it's on this particular issue that the Prosecutor would like to get back

 2     to, since he seems to have addressed this during his testimony in 2006.

 3             Is that right, Mr. Dutertre?  Have I got it right?

 4             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I hadn't addressed this last point

 5     yet, but this is exactly what I wanted to get at.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is how things stand.

 7     Mr. Seselj, what do you have to say?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is impermissible

 9     for the Prosecutor to tell the witness that in 1996, "In the statement to

10     the Prosecution, you said that two membership cards existed, the Serbian

11     Radical Party and the Serbian Chetnik Movement."  That's how the

12     Prosecutor began, so I assume you have that in the transcript, and that

13     is impermissible.  And if you look at both those statements, you will see

14     that no mention is made of the membership cards of the Serbian Radical

15     Party, but only of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.  The first time that the

16     witness mentioned the membership card of the Serbian Radical Party was at

17     the proofing session which was held several days ago.  Never before did

18     he mention that.  And I received the minutes from the proofing session.

19     It is in three parts, and it is only there that the witness first

20     mentions the Serbian Radical Party.

21             So why is my objection well founded?  Because the Prosecutor must

22     not lead the witness and suggest that he said in 1996 something that the

23     witness did not say at that time.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, I believe that

25     Mr. Seselj has -- is right at least on one point.  The statement of 1996,

Page 7030

 1     which I have before me --

 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the

 3     witness told us last week as regards the statements he made in 1996.  I'm

 4     not referring to the written statement of 1996, but the explanations

 5     provided by the witness as regards what he said in 1996.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down, Mr. Dutertre, please.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is what the witness said, and

 8     it is on the transcript.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you give us the transcript

10     page, please.

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I can find it again, if you

12     would allow me.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While the Prosecutor is looking for

14     that, I'd like to draw your attention, Judges, to the following.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's on page 7012, Your Honour,

16     7012, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 7012.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 19 to 25, lines 19 to 25.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Registrar bring up

20     this page, please.

21             In the meantime, Mr. Seselj will address another issue.

22             Mr. Seselj.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor is now telling you

24     something new that I wasn't challenging at all.  It is correct that last

25     week, the witness mentioned two IDs or membership cards, that of the

Page 7031

 1     Serbian Radical Movement and the Serbian Chetnik Movement, but there's

 2     none of that in the 1996 statement, so this is quite impermissible

 3     behaviour.  He can score a point with people that have an IQ at the level

 4     of idiots, but at this kind of level, you can't pull a fast one like

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have the transcript before me

 7     now, and I'm reading it on my colleague's screen.  He explained it, on

 8     line 20, that the cards existed.  That is the truth.  One of the cards

 9     mentioned "SCP," and the other card "SRS," Serbian Radical Party.  So he

10     mentioned two cards here in the courtroom, whereas in the 1996 statement,

11     only one card was mentioned.

12             So, Witness, 15 years later, how is it that your memory has --

13             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, in 1996, it may sound

14     ambiguous, but what I -- my point today, which was by way of

15     introduction, I was just saying that the witness did state this at the

16     time, and I was only quoting his words.  Line 19 to 25.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.  My

18     colleague does not seem to agree.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is a problem for me,

20     particularly in the light of what the Prosecutor said just a few moments

21     ago.

22             On line 2 -- on page 2, line 13, 14, 15 and 16, I don't know if

23     it's a translation issue.  Maybe it would be best to check what the

24     Prosecutor said in French.  It seems that he refers to something which

25     the witness would have said to the investigator in 1996, as regards a

Page 7032

 1     membership card of the SRS.  So we should check this.

 2             Did you actually say this, because if you have said this, I

 3     believe that the accused is right to object, because in the 1996

 4     statement mention is made to a card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and

 5     not the SRS, so let's be quite clear about this.  This does not mean that

 6     the accused needs to be that aggressive when he objects.  He could be

 7     perhaps a little bit more courteous, but basically he is right.

 8             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the

 9     witness said last week, and in these lines from 19 to 25, maybe I didn't

10     express myself properly.  But in these lines 19 to 25, he mentioned

11     having mentioned it, and he said there might have been a translation

12     problem at the time, I mean.  This is why I did not mention the 1996

13     document, but I talked about what he had said in 1996.  So maybe I

14     didn't -- maybe I misspoke, but I was referring to the transcript.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On line 19 of page 7012 in the

16     English we have before us, we can read as follows, and he refers to both

17     cards, and he even adds:

18             [In English] "That is the truth."

19             [Interpretation] So since there is an objection, I shall take

20     charge of this.

21             Now, we have the proof, Witness, that in 1996, in the English

22     version -- normally speaking, the English version should match the B/C/S

23     version, which I do not have.  I do not have it.  You only talked about

24     one ID card of the Chetnik Movement, a membership card of the Chetnik

25     Movement, and last week you said that in your statement, you mentioned

Page 7033

 1     two cards.  So can you tell us what you actually said in 1996 to the

 2     investigator?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said exactly that two different

 4     membership cards existed.  I had them, I looked at them.  I had them in

 5     my hands, I read them, and it is true, there were two different

 6     membership cards, one of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the other the

 7     Serbian Radical Party.  So that is correct.  Now, how that was

 8     translated, I really don't know.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're a

10     professional.  If that had been very important and if the investigator

11     felt it was very important, why didn't you make sure that this was

12     properly translated at the time, that this be really recorded on the

13     transcript, because in your interview, this doesn't show.  One has the

14     feeling that these were cards of the Serbian Chetnik Movement.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I responded to the questions they

16     asked me at the time, and that's what I said at the time; what I've just

17     said now.  Now, how it was translated and then written down, I don't

18     know.  I didn't look at all that, the translation of it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that the Prosecution

22     provided you subsequently with the 1997 statement of this witness, so

23     that you can see that on page 7, that he is talking about the same

24     question, and he says that two brothers had membership cards issued by

25     Seselj's paramilitary, para-army.  So there's no mention of the Serbian

Page 7034

 1     Radical Party.  This could bring to mind the Serbian Chetnik Movement, if

 2     the witness considers that to be my paramilitaries, but there was no

 3     Serbian Radical Party there even in 1997, and it doesn't exist in his

 4     Belgrade statement, in the Belgrade testimony.  I don't know whether the

 5     Prosecutor has provided you with a copy of that, either.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, one year later, the

 7     investigator of the OTP interviews you once again, and then something

 8     crops up.  You talk about Seselj's paramilitaries, without mentioning the

 9     Serbian Radical Party.  How can you explain this to us?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to repeat for the umpteenth

11     time, two different membership cards existed.  Both of them were Seselj's

12     paramilitary formations, both, because it wasn't the legal army ever.  So

13     both the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the Serbian Radical Party, they

14     were paramilitary formations, and it was one and the same formation,

15     Seselj's one, but they had two different membership cards.  The first

16     membership card was produced much earlier, and according to some

17     information it was banned over there, and then they opted for a different

18     method, to use a milder expression for their party, and called it the

19     "Serbian Radical Party."  That's the truth of it, and I had those

20     membership cards in my hands.  I read them, and it cannot be otherwise.

21     Now, how it was translated over there, I really can't explain that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, and then I

23     shall give the floor back to the Prosecutor.

24             How would you define a paramilitary, according to your training?

25     What is a paramilitary formation, in your eyes?

Page 7035

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the forces who -- which were

 2     established, which were formed on the basis of certain people's volition,

 3     voluntarily, outside -- institutions outside the legal formations, and I

 4     said last time the legal formations were just the formations and units of

 5     the Yugoslav People's Army and the Ministry of the Interior.  All the

 6     rest were beyond, outside the system, which means paramilitary, illegal

 7     ones.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Dutertre, let's

 9     proceed.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11             I would just like to note that the translation of what I said,

12     page 7, line 9, is incomplete.  I shall not correct it now.  I'd like

13     time.

14        Q.   Do you remember you testified in 2006?

15        A.   Yes, I do remember.

16        Q.   Do you remember having mentioned the existence of these two

17     cards, one card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and one card of the SRS,

18     the Serbian Radical Party?

19        A.   Yes, I did mention that.

20        Q.   In this trial in Belgrade in 2006, Mr. Seselj was not one of the

21     accused, was he?

22        A.   No.

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, objection.  I think that

25     the Prosecutor must show you now that portion of the transcript from the

Page 7036

 1     Belgrade trial where this witness referred to those two membership cards.

 2     You can't just skip over that.  He is relating to an exhibit, and now he

 3     must provide it.  I will provide it during the cross-examination.

 4             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, if it's on Mr. Seselj's

 5     time, I don't mind.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  "If it's not on my time,

 7     that's fine."

 8             At the time you put the question, I thought you were going to

 9     show the witness a question which was put in Belgrade to the witness and

10     his answer.  I thought you were going to show him that to put it in

11     context, because it's important to know what question this related to.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is document 7227 65 ter list

13     page 627.  I'm interested in the two pages here in B/C/S, so pages 7 and

14     8 have been translated, and other two pages have not been translated, but

15     I can quote this.

16             The Judge was asking --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor repeat the

18     page number, because I omitted to hear one of the digits.

19             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

20     ... Mr. Seselj.  The translation in English is in the document.  I can

21     read it out, if you like.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For Mr. Seselj to be able to

23     check, we should show this on the screen.  We should show the document,

24     7227.

25             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 7.

Page 7037

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, he did say "7227."

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in B/C/S, yes?

 3             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Would you like me to read it to

 4     save time?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE:  Witness Asim Alic, there were two of them,

 7     identification cards, Seselj's members, one identification card, these

 8     were radicals, and before that there were -- I remember it well,

 9     identification cards labelled -- it said 'SCP' Serbian Chetnik

10     identification card, military one, and it was on those grounds that I

11     started contemplating --"

12             No, sorry, sorry. [Interpretation] I've made a mistake, sorry:

13             [In English] "...  movement, and I know they were banned under a

14     particular name, but the identification cards were still with them, so it

15     gave me evidence of the [indiscernible] and whom they belonged to."

16             [Interpretation] Is that what you stated in Belgrade?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, I have

18     an objection.

19             First of all, the Prosecutor did not read out exactly what it

20     says in the Belgrade statement, because I have page 7 in front of me of

21     the original transcript of the 10th of March, 2006.  The president of the

22     Trial Chamber says:  "Who was that?"  That's on page 7.  And the witness,

23     Asim Alic, says:

24             "They were two of them.  Two of them had ID cards, Seselj's

25     members, one ID card --"

Page 7038


 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We could ask the witness to read

 3     the translation out.  I read the translation which I had, but maybe it

 4     would be best if the interpreters translate when Mr. Alic reads out this

 5     passage.

 6             Could we scroll down to the bottom of the page, please.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before you, you have

 8     the text in B/C/S of the hearing.  Clearly, a question is put by the

 9     judge and the witness answers.  Clearly, we are dealing with a

10     professional judge here, because the questions are extremely

11     professional.

12             Could you read out the answer you gave, which is in B/C/S here?

13     With that, the interpreters can translate what you are reading out to us.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I begin?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were -- two people had them,

17     had identification cards, Seselj's members.  One of the IDs, those were

18     the Radicals, and before them, I remember well, IDs that were called --

19     on them, it said 'the SCP,' the Serbian Chetnik Movement, and I know that

20     what it was under that name that they were prohibited, but they still had

21     those IDs.  So that was proof even more of their affiliation, to whom

22     they belonged."

23             It is true I said that, but look at the second sentence in that

24     paragraph:

25             "They were people.  They had identification cards.  Seselj's

Page 7039

 1     members, one identification card said 'the Radicals,' so I'm talking

 2     about one where it said the Radicals and one where it said the Serbian

 3     Radical Party.  One was the Chetniks and the other the Serbian Radical

 4     Party, but it is true that there were two.  And I clearly spoke about the

 5     two of them.  I clearly saw them, and that's the truth of it."

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we've just heard the

 8     translation of what you've said.  The important point is the beginning.

 9     I would like you to read this out again slowly, please, just the

10     beginning.  So read it again, and read it slowly so that the interpreters

11     can do their job properly.  So please read it out again, just the

12     beginning.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were people -- two people had

14     identification cards.  When I say 'identification cards,' I mean several.

15     He didn't have one.  It's not in the singular, it's in the plural.  I

16     remember well the identification cards were called -- on it, it said --"

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What the witness is now doing has

18     no sense.  The witness isn't reading, he is interpreting it subsequently

19     and interpreting it wrongly.  You asked the witness to read it out, so

20     the witness has to read it out word by word without any comments.  You

21     can ask for comments later on.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, can you please

23     read what is in the text, but word for word?  Mr. Seselj speaks the same

24     language that you do, so if there is a difference, he will object.  So

25     please start again from the beginning, without commenting anything.  Just

Page 7040

 1     read out loud what is written on the screen.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "They were -- they were two people

 3     that had -- they had ID cards, Seselj's members, one ID card that was

 4     those Radicals, and before that there were, I remember that well, ID

 5     cards that were called -- it said on them 'SCP,' the Serbian Chetnik

 6     Movement, and I know that they were banned under that name, but those ID

 7     cards were left, and that was proof even more of their affiliation of who

 8     they belonged."

 9             And then it says, the next sentence:  "Double, they had double."

10             That's what I said in my testimony, they had double IDs, and

11     that's what I'm saying now.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  At the beginning of

13     the text read by the witness, there is a reference.  He says there were

14     two men.  They had ID cards, Seselj's men, and the translation says one

15     ID card, they were Radicals.  So in the first part of the sentence, it

16     does not seem that -- at least not formally that there was one ID card

17     from the Serbian Radical Party.  At least this is what I heard through

18     the translation.  However, at the end of the sentence, one could think

19     that there were two ID cards.  But it's not clear at all when you read

20     the first part of the sentence.

21             Mr. Prosecutor, this being said, you can now have the floor and

22     proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the interpretation

24     you received was not correct.  The correct one is:  "Those were."  There

25     were two people.  They had ID cards, Seselj's members.  So the witness is

Page 7041

 1     speaking in disjointed sentence.  "One ID," that's those Radicals, and

 2     not those were the Radicals, so you get a wrong translation.  That was a

 3     reinterpretation of what was just said in French.  It says:  "Those were

 4     the Radicals," so the witness gives a broader explanation, but please

 5     look at what it says in the paragraph below, three lines down.  The

 6     witness says:

 7             "I remember -- I remember that of the two that belonged to the

 8     Serbian Chetnik Movement or to the Radicals ..."

 9             So he identifies the Serbian Chetnik Movement with the Radicals,

10     and he's not talking about the Radicals' IDs.  He says those who had IDs

11     of the Serbian Chetnik Movement, those were Radicals, in his opinion.

12     That's the essence, in his view.  And then he goes on to explain what

13     they looked like.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In the first

15     translation that we heard, what was said was they were Radicals, and

16     Mr. Seselj is telling us that this is wrong, it was these were his

17     Radicals.  So there's a difference between these were Radicals and these

18     were his radicals.

19             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, I thank Mr. Seselj for all

20     his -- I already read this translation, we can ask for a new translation

21     of this passage for confirmation.  This is the translation I obtained.

22     I can only quote from this translation, I can't do anymore.  The witness

23     gave us his explanation regarding this passage.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is asking the CLSS

25     to translate in French and English the passage in question, read by the

Page 7042

 1     witness in his own language.

 2             Let's move on, please.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   Witness, please, did you ask Repic, the younger brother, whether

 5     he was a member of the SRS?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   What did he answer?

 8        A.   He replied in the affirmative.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that he also had a membership card of

10     the Chetnik Movement.  Did you know at that time who headed this

11     movement?

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, I was aware of that.

13        Q.   Who was it, please?

14        A.   That was Mr. Vojislav Seselj.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Who is Ulemek?

16        A.   Ulemek is one of the four people who happened to be at the Public

17     Security Station that day.  He was a member of the paramilitary

18     formations run by Arkan.

19        Q.   How did you know he was a member of the paramilitary formations

20     run by Arkan?

21        A.   We found several ID cards on Ulemek.  One of them was the

22     military ID card, the regular card ID card of the Yugoslav People's Army.

23     The other ID card -- or another ID card was that of Arkan's Tigers, and

24     the third one was that of the French Foreign Legion.

25        Q.   On the card of Arkan's Tigers, was there a photograph, his

Page 7043

 1     photograph?

 2        A.   Yes, there was a photograph, and he himself confirmed in his

 3     statement that he belonged to Arkan's paramilitaries and that he had in

 4     his possession the ID card.

 5        Q.   Do you remember his first name?

 6        A.   As I've said earlier, he had a number of ID cards, but there was

 7     the same name and the same photograph certified by a stamp in all of

 8     them, and that was Miroslav Ulemek, Legija.

 9        Q.   What does "Legija" mean?

10        A.   Legija was his nickname.  I think he probably got this nickname

11     because he belonged to the French Foreign Legion.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What is Ulemek doing at the moment; do you know?

13        A.   I think that Ulemek is currently serving his sentence which was

14     confirmed on appeal in a Serbian prison.

15        Q.   Do you know why he was convicted?

16        A.   He was charged with several offences, including the assassination

17     of the Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic.

18        Q.   I believe that there might be a problem at line 17, page 25.  You

19     talk about Milorad Ulemek or Miroslav Ulemek?

20        A.   Milorad, Milorad.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the fourth man arrested on the same day?

22        A.   The fourth man was also a member of Arkan's paramilitaries, yes.

23        Q.   Do you remember his name?

24        A.   I think it was Zvezdan Jovanovic.

25        Q.   Who is the person called "Stojanovic"?

Page 7044

 1        A.   That's the one, that's the person.  On two or rather three

 2     occasions that I gave statements, and it is possible that I had made a

 3     mistake, a slip of a tongue.

 4        Q.   Very well.  You said he was a member of Arkan's Tigers?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, it is not clear, what the

 6     witness is affirming now, whether it is Zvijezda Novanovic or Zvijezda

 7     Stojanovic, the fourth man.  Let us see what is the final statement made

 8     by this witness.  I think it is important.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please give

10     us some details of this?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I was not 100 per cent

12     certain about the last name, but I am 100 per cent certain about this

13     man, because he was present at the Public Security Station the whole day,

14     and I spoke to him on several occasions.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I could refresh

16     the witness's memory on this.  Referring to his hearing, his interview of

17     July 13, 1996, page 4, paragraph 18 -- if you may, I'll read the first

18     sentence.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.  This is

20     authorised by the Appeals Chamber.

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you:

22             [In English] " ...  second arrested man was Stojanovic, a dentist

23     from Belgrade, who had Arkan's ID card as well."

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Is this what you said in 1996, Mr. Alic?

25        A.   Yes, that's what I stated, and that was recorded as my statement.

Page 7045

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Earlier, you said that these four men, Repic, Zuto,

 2     Ulemek and now Stojanovic were going to the is that Jezero Hotel in Mali

 3     Zvornik.  Did they tell you the names of the people they were supposed to

 4     meet at the Jezero Hotel in Mali Zvornik?

 5        A.   No.  They had the intention to go to the Jezero Hotel, but they

 6     never got there, because they made a mistake and they crossed the Drina

 7     River to the right bank into Bosnia sooner than they were expected, and

 8     that's why they never did establish this contact.

 9        Q.   Very well.  But who were they supposed to meet at the Jezero

10     Hotel?

11        A.   At that time, they spoke about several people there.  The one of

12     those persons that was supposed to be there was Arkan, and there was also

13     Brano Grujic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know what Arkan did before the war?

15        A.   I think that I could only speculate, and I'm not here to

16     speculate.  I heard that he was a pastry maker.

17        Q.   You said that Repic and Zuto had been mentioned as having -- as

18     authors by people who were rescued from camps that had been set up around

19     Zvornik.  Was Ulemek also mentioned by these people?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What about Stojanovic, was he also mentioned?

22        A.   Yes.  All four were mentioned, and a specific detailed

23     description was given.

24        Q.   You also said that on the Serbian side, there had been phone

25     calls in order for these four men to be released from the Zvornik police

Page 7046

 1     station.  Among these four men, was there one which the Serbians seemed

 2     to be more -- feel more important?

 3        A.   There were several phone calls made on that day.  Of course, I

 4     was not in contact over the phone with that person.  That was done by my

 5     colleague, but he briefed me regularly and he relayed to me the demands

 6     made by the other side.  The other side insisted on the surrender of all

 7     four, but the stress was placed on Ulemek, Legija.  Since Legija held the

 8     military ID card of the regular Yugoslav People's Army among the ID cards

 9     that he had, with the military post codes that corresponded to the

10     Pancevo military police, at first I wanted to call the military police

11     and to hand him over to them, because I thought he was a military

12     policeman, but it was just one of the ID cards that he had in order to

13     identify himself and to ensure free passage.

14             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'm done with my question, but I

15     would like one thing to be clarified, if I may.

16             In the transcript, page 6970, line 12, there may be a problem

17     with the translation here.  I said:

18             [In English] " ...  against Dragan Spasojevic aided the SDS in

19     Zvornik, do you mean that he was a chairman?"

20             [Interpretation] I would like to know whether this is a mistake

21     or whether we are really talking about Mr. Brano Grujic as head of the

22     SDS in Zvornik, rather than Dragan Spasojevic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, the president of

24     the Serbian Chetnik Movement in Zvornik was Mr. Grujic.

25             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

Page 7047

 1     questions, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One follow-up question.

 3             If I understood you well, these four people, according to you,

 4     two were linked to the Chetnik Movement, possibly to Seselj's men.  The

 5     third one, Ulemek, has a membership card from Arkan's, and the fourth

 6     one, the dentist, Stojanovic, seems also to be in the same movement as

 7     Arkan.  These four individuals were arrested by chance because they lost

 8     their way, and you hear them, you interview them, and it seems that they

 9     were supposed to meet someone at the Jezero Hotel in Mali Zvornik.  They

10     were supposed to meet two people, actually, Arkan and Grusic

11     [as interpreted].  Grusic is the head in Zvornik of a party, but it is

12     not the Serbian Radical Party.

13             Is it exactly what you were said?

14             Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may help you,

16     it's Grujic, not Grusic.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So these four

18     people were supposed to meet someone who was not a member of the Serbian

19     Radical Party.  Is this what happened; is that it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you found out that this

22     meeting was to be held, did you try and find out what was the purpose of

23     the meeting, why the meeting had been set up?  What seems quite

24     surprising is that these four individuals were dressed like Rambo.  They

25     had the entire gear, you know.  They were geared up like people who

Page 7048

 1     wanted to carry out some kind of military action.

 2             So did you ask them what they were supposed to do at that hotel,

 3     what was the purpose of the meeting, and so on?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that day, I asked them a series

 5     of questions.  Among the questions I asked was the question that you just

 6     mentioned.  They said that they had come with the intention of helping

 7     and protecting the Serb people in Zvornik, and I said, "What kind of help

 8     are you offering?"  And they said, "The Serb people is under threat in

 9     Zvornik, it is threatened by Muslims.  The Muslims are mistreating them,

10     killing them, raping them, and we are here to help them."

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this meeting seemed to have

12     been organised by Arkan and this Grujic, and the purpose was to protect

13     Zvornik?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the meeting was

15     organised by Mr. Grujic and that Arkan and all the others were the

16     paramilitaries.  They were mercenaries, they were looters, and they

17     gladly responded to such summons because they were bound to get a lot of

18     money and a lot of the looted property, and they were doing that on a

19     large scale at that time.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Mr. Seselj, you can start the cross-examination.  Mr. Seselj, you

22     have two and a half hours, and you may proceed.  You have the floor, and

23     we will have our break around 10.00.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

25        Q.   Mr. Alic, since you worked as a police officer in Belgrade and

Page 7049

 1     you were a member of the city brigade of the police, did you ever meet me

 2     in Belgrade?

 3        A.   Yes, quite often.

 4        Q.   What kinds of meetings were they?

 5        A.   For the most part, you often stood in front of the Federal

 6     Assembly with a loudspeaker, and you made those inflammatory speeches,

 7     and for the most part you had around you your entourage of followers and

 8     the passersby, who would stop and look at you, and would cause

 9     disturbance to the traffic.  And it was our brief to make sure that the

10     traffic flowed freely, and we had to remove you from that area in order

11     to ensure that.

12        Q.   And in order to remove me, you had to arrest me?

13        A.   Well, if that's the term that you're using.  Let me explain what

14     we did.

15             We removed you, we put you in an official vehicle, and we took

16     you to the 29th November.

17        Q.   Could you explain to the Judges what the 29th November is?

18        A.   That's the unit of the Ministry of the Interior, where the

19     custody area was.

20        Q.   How many times did you arrest me in this manner?

21        A.   Well, quite a number of times.

22        Q.   How many times?

23        A.   Well, sometimes once or twice daily.

24        Q.   And how many times in total?

25        A.   Well, at the minimum, 10 or 15 times.

Page 7050

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It is very easy, when you both speak the same

 2     language, to just rattle off in a conversation.  That, however, leaves

 3     the interpreters as well as the Judges, and probably also the Prosecutor,

 4     completely outside your very interesting conversation.  I therefore

 5     kindly ask you to respect a pause, and I don't know if the best way for

 6     you, Mr. Witness, is to count to five before you answer the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So in 1990 and 1991, you took part in arresting me several times.

10     And in your statement dated 1997, it says that you did it 10 or 20 times,

11     perhaps more?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   So, Mr. Alic, we had skirmishes before.  This is not the first

14     one.  I'm intrigued by something you said in your examination-in-chief.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one thing.  At the time,

16     you know, Mr. Seselj, did he have some kind of a mandate?  Was he a

17     member of parliament or what?  I'm asking this question, because if he

18     was a member of parliament, he must have had some kind immunity.  You

19     can't arrest a member of parliament like that, so I'd like to know

20     exactly what happened at the time.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew at the time who we could

22     arrest and who we couldn't arrest.  At that time, Mr. Seselj was nothing

23     but the president and the founder of a party.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was arrested while

25     I was a member of the parliament.  I came here from the Federal

Page 7051

 1     Parliament, so all those stories about immunity had nothing to do with

 2     anything.  I actually arrested myself when I was a member of the Federal

 3     Parliament.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.

 5             Contrary to what you've been saying, Mr. Seselj says he'd been

 6     elected, so obviously there's a difference in terms of substance.  You

 7     were part of the police force, so you were supposed to know the law.  At

 8     the time, do you know whether a member of parliament could be arrested?

 9     Was it possible or not?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the law, it was not possible,

11     but I doubt that he had any kind of immunity, because if he had immunity

12     and if we made that mistake the first time, we couldn't have made that

13     mistake the 20th time, because by that time we would already know that he

14     had immunity.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps he needs some additional

16     information.

17             I became a member of the parliament in July 1991, and Mr. Alic

18     testified that he left Belgrade in October, so that was a couple of

19     months before I became.  But let me remind you that I was arrested in

20     1994 and 1995, when I had immunity, and I was kept in custody for a long

21     time.  But that's immaterial.  What is important to me is what Mr. Alic

22     said in his examination-in-chief, and that is that I was supposed to

23     visit Bratunac in early 1992, but that the arrival was postponed because

24     strong forces had arrived from Tuzla and they were getting ready to

25     arrest me.

Page 7052

 1        Q.   Is that what you stated, Mr. Alic?

 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to know

 3     whether Mr. Seselj could quote the page of the transcript he is referring

 4     to.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, because the transcript has not

 6     been translated into Serbian, and you know that you're not translating it

 7     into Serbian but you're just giving me DVDs, and it takes my team a month

 8     or more to transcribe it, to put it on paper.  And instead of being

 9     ashamed of what you're doing to me, you're now taunting me with it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, you

11     cannot give a positive answer to this request because the transcript is

12     not in B/C/S.  Therefore, you cannot answer this request.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think there's

15     anything that is challenged there.  I assume you remember the witness

16     saying that, and he's just confirmed this.  And as this is new, as far as

17     I'm concerned, I'd never heard about it before, that's the question I

18     began with.

19        Q.   Mr. Alic, this happened sometime at the beginning of 1992, as far

20     as I understand.

21        A.   Yes, I think that was the period.

22        Q.   I was supposed to go to Bratunac, and then the special police

23     came from Tuzla to arrest me; is that what you said?

24        A.   You were supposed to be present in Bratunac and to deliver some

25     of your speeches there, and we had information according to which you

Page 7053

 1     would arrive, you would be arriving and crossing over into

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Now, your arrival could have caused an upset in

 3     inter-human relations more than was already the case, and we wanted to

 4     prevent that.  We wanted to prevent that, and we would have prevented it

 5     by arresting you.  That's a fact, we would have arrested you.

 6        Q.   And what would you have done with me then?

 7        A.   Well, I wouldn't make the decisions.  Somebody above me would

 8     have made those decisions.

 9        Q.   Well, how could you arrest someone for preventative reasons

10     without that person having committed a crime at all?

11        A.   There is a way to do that, to arrest people without them having

12     committed crimes.

13        Q.   Ah, well, that's what I wanted to hear from you, those ways of

14     arresting people without them having committed any crime.  Very well,

15     Mr. Alic, I'm very grateful to you for adding to my biography, my CV,

16     because I've never heard about that, but you said that the Security

17     Service cautioned me and warned me that I was going to be arrested, and

18     that's why I didn't go.  So which service was it who warned me ?

19        A.   According to our information, because in our building, where the

20     Public Security Station was located, there was a Department of State

21     Security, too, so that's how.

22        Q.   Did you hear that before that, anywhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina I

23     held public rallies and made my political speeches; did you ever hear of

24     that?

25        A.   I'm not quite sure.  I can't answer that.

Page 7054

 1        Q.   Well, I'll tell you.  I had one in Bijeljina, in closed -- a

 2     closed premises, the Serbia Cafe, and in Banja Luka as well at the end of

 3     1991, in passing through towards Western Slavonia, and you've heard of

 4     the Borik hall, I assume, in Banja Luka.  But over there, we had already

 5     established the Serbian Radical Party there, both in Bijeljina and in

 6     Banja Luka, whereas in Zvornik and Banja Luka, we didn't have any -- in

 7     Bratunac.  And you thought we did?

 8        A.   I didn't know about that.  I don't deal with politics.

 9        Q.   Well, you would have heard how the party existed; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you didn't hear about that.  How could I then hold a rally in

12     a place where the Serbian Radical Party doesn't exist at all?  Who would

13     have organised it for me?  I assume you form a party first and then you

14     go on to work for the party.

15        A.   Well, somebody should have -- could have prepared the terrain for

16     you so that you had sympathizers.  The people hear of you, hear your

17     speeches, and then become members.

18        Q.   But you have to set the groundwork for that, an initiative board

19     or a municipal board, and then rally the people into membership; right?

20             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj and the witness are

23     talking together extremely fast, and it's very difficult to raise an

24     objection.  But obviously the witness is asked to speculate on a number

25     of things.  He said that he had heard about a party, and when checking

Page 7055

 1     his answers, you see that he's only speculating.  So this is why I'm

 2     raising an objection.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, given the objection

 4     that has just been raised, the important thing is the following:  In

 5     Zvornik, was there, yes or no, presence of the Serbian Radical Party?

 6     You said, "I was not involved in politics."  Fine, but this is not what

 7     you're asked.  You were asked whether, as a policeman, you knew whether

 8     there was or whether there was not a Serbian Radical Party in Zvornik.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question,

10     because I'm not quite sure whether it existed or not, but that

11     sympathizers of the Serb Radical Movement did exist.  I can say that with

12     certainty.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Well, Mr. Alic, in Tuzla there are many sympathizers of the

15     Serbian Radical Party without a municipal board.  There's no organisation

16     there; isn't that right?

17        A.   Unfortunately, that is right.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness.  We may

19     have a translation issue here.

20             In French, I heard "there were representatives of the SRS," and

21     after that I heard "sympathizers."  It's not quite the same.  So

22     "sympathizers," the interpreter has just corrected this.

23             According to you, there were sympathizers in Zvornik; is that

24     right?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said "sympathizers," not

Page 7056

 1     "representatives," so sympathizers of the Serbian Radical Party.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Alic, you said that you left Belgrade because in that police

 4     unit, and I'm paraphrasing now, there was a burgeoning nationalistic

 5     atmosphere and that your new commander, a Serb, Aleksandar Bosovic,

 6     ordered that in the brigade only Serbs should remain; is that what you

 7     said?

 8        A.   No, I did not.  The then commander, Aleksandar Bosovic, was the

 9     commander up until that time, and he never said that.  However, when he

10     was replaced with his replacement, a new commander arrived and words like

11     that were heard -- said by him.

12        Q.   I'm referring you to page 3 of your 1997 statement, and that --

13     and paragraph 3 of that page is what I'd like to refer you.  You say:

14             "At that time, our brigade received a new commander.  He was a

15     Serb, Aleksandar Bosovic, who ordered that all policemen from our brigade

16     should only be Serbs.  I attended a meeting at which he said that from

17     now on, the brigade would be known as the Serb Guard.  After I heard that

18     terrible news, I decided that I was not going to stay in Belgrade at any

19     cost and that I would return to Bosnia."

20             Is that what you said?

21        A.   It is true that I said that.  However, I didn't say the name

22     "Aleksandar Bosovic," because Aleksandar Bosovic was the commander up

23     until that time, until that time, and he never made that statement.  He

24     was quite proper, a normal man, quite different from the other man who

25     replaced me.

Page 7057

 1        Q.   Well, this is what it says in your statement.  I didn't add that,

 2     Mr. Alic.

 3        A.   I know what I said, but there might have been a mistake in the

 4     translation.  So I state again and claim that that is how it was.

 5        Q.   Please, Mr. Alic, there's no mistake in the translation.  You

 6     signed each page of the Serbian personally, so you signed the Serbian

 7     version, not the French or the English.  So there is no translation

 8     error.  That's how you signed it in 1997, on page 3.  Here's your

 9     signature, and your signature's on every page.

10        A.   Mr. Seselj, I know full well what I signed.  I know very well

11     what I stated.  However, I claim and state that there is a mistake in the

12     writing of the name and surname of the commander up until that time and

13     from that time.

14        Q.   Mr. Alic, when you read this text --

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I believe there must be a mistake.

16     On page 31, line 22, where Mr. Seselj says that the witness has signed

17     the Serbian version, what I have before me is a version in English that

18     is signed.  I just wanted to specify this.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj has read

20     out to you what you stated, and in what you said, Aleksandar Bosovic was

21     the new commander, who said, "From now on, there will only be Serbs."

22             Now you're saying that this is a mistake.  So you made the

23     mistake or is it the investigator who wrote this down and wrote the name

24     down?  But if it's the investigator who wrote the name down, he can only

25     have written it down according to what you told him.  What do you have to

Page 7058

 1     say to that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there was a mistake in the

 3     translation there, because Mr. Aleksandar Bosovic was the commander up

 4     until that time, which means that he was replaced at that point in time

 5     and a new commander arrived who made that statement, and that new

 6     commander is whom I'm referring to.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Maybe Mr. Alic signed the English version, too, but he quite

 9     certainly did sign the Serbian version, and here we have his signature.

10             Now, on the second page of the statement, something was corrected

11     here.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  We

13     need to start again because we didn't get the translation.

14             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to clarify this, in

15     the proofing notes that were sent to Mr. Seselj, as far as this paragraph

16     is concerned, something is being specified by the witness here, and he

17     mentions --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Completely impermissible.  This is

19     impermissible.

20             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to quote some --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Impermissible.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This deserves our attention.

23             Mr. Seselj, please start again, put your question again, because

24     we could not hear the interpretation when you were speaking.  I think

25     it's working again, so please repeat what you said when I interrupted

Page 7059

 1     you.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   The Prosecutor said that Mr. Alic had signed the statement in

 4     English.  Perhaps that is correct.  I don't know.  But what I can see is

 5     that he signed the statement in Serbian as well.  On page 3 -- page 3 is

 6     where the paragraph that I quoted from is, and Mr. Alic's signature at

 7     the bottom.  And we can show that in court here, if need be.

 8             Now, on the second page, we see here in paragraph 5 that Mr. Alic

 9     corrected something in his statement.  What it said was this:

10             "At the end of 1982, I graduated from the machine construction

11     faculty."

12             And then reading the statement, he crossed that out, because the

13     word was "strojarstvo," which is a term he never used in his life, and

14     then he corrected it and said, I graduated from the school of engineers

15     for work organisation, and then you signed the correction.

16             Again, you can see that on the screen, but I fear that this is

17     going to take up too much time.  Anyway, put this on the overhead

18     protector, and you'll see how conscientious Mr. Alic was in correcting

19     that and signing it, and now look at the other page that I quoted from

20     and Mr. Alic's signature there, too.  Then you can return the documents

21     to me.

22             And I hope that while we're waiting, this isn't deducted from my

23     time, Mr. President.

24             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it might be useful to

25     know when this version in B/C/S was signed, if we compare it with the

Page 7060

 1     English version which was signed.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, in your statement in

 3     your language, we have a written proof of this here, you may have made

 4     corrections.  The first question:  When were these corrections made; in

 5     1996 or after that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that these were done

 7     straight away when I gave the statement, but probably in reading through

 8     the statement -- the rest of the statement, that I didn't happen to

 9     notice what Mr. Seselj is insisting upon.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Give that back to me,

11     then.  That's enough.  You didn't notice it; fine.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think this -- when

13     the statement, 92 bis, was signed, the first page mentioned that this was

14     signed on the 24th of July, 2005.  That's when the document was signed in

15     the witness's own language.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is -- what's going on is quite

18     unbelievable.  The witness signed the statement of the 19th of May, 1997,

19     in the Serbian version.  Here you have his signature on page 1, on

20     page 2, and here the corrections in his own hand, and here is page 3 from

21     which I quoted, here is page 4, and every page is signed.  So why don't

22     you prevent the Prosecutor from using those methods?  It's impermissible.

23     This is the 1997 statement, and nowhere does it say "92 bis," so why

24     don't you intervene?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I step in when it's

Page 7061

 1     really worthwhile.  When, at first hand, the consequences are nil or

 2     non-existence, then I don't, but in this case I think we should shed some

 3     light.

 4             Mr. Prosecutor, you talk about the 24th of July 2005 and you

 5     mention a 92 bis statement.  If I understood you correctly, after this

 6     statement was written in 1996, you prepared a written statement, a 92 bis

 7     written statement; is that right?

 8             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is a written

 9     statement which is a 92 bis statement, which was signed.  I have the

10     first page.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is it dated?

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 26th of July, 2006, in Tuzla.

13     This is what the representative of the Registry states.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a statement dated 24th

15     of July, 2005, which the Bench does not have.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, please, could you

17     explain to me why I was not given that statement?  I can understand why

18     you weren't, maybe you don't need it, but why wasn't I provided this 24th

19     of July, 2005 statement of the witness?

20             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This was disclosed to Mr. Seselj,

21     Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On what date?

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I can let you know in the course

24     of the morning, but I am positive this was disclosed to the accused.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was never disclosed to me.

Page 7062

 1     I've never seen it.  Certainly, it wasn't disclosed to me, and I was

 2     preparing to ask those questions, because Mr. Asim Alic, on the 10th of

 3     March in Belgrade -- or, rather, 2006, he testified in Belgrade and

 4     stated on that occasion that the previous year, he gave some sort of

 5     statement to the Prosecution and that he gave two statements a year

 6     before that.  That's what Mr. Alic said.  So there are a total of three

 7     statements over a period of two years prior to the testimony in Belgrade,

 8     and I have received none of those statements, none of those three, and

 9     that is in the transcript of the Belgrade proceedings.

10             Now, why wasn't I disclosed that?  I think that that's quite

11     unbelievable.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honour, all

13     the statements made by the witness have been disclosed to the accused.  I

14     shall get back to you on this.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You know, Mr. Dutertre, that

16     there were a lot of problems between Mr. Seselj and the previous Trial

17     Chambers and the pre-trial Judges.  These problems were due to the fact

18     that he had been given a standby counsel.  From then on, Mr. Seselj

19     refused a whole series of documents.

20             When I was asked to become the Pre-Trial Judge, I was asked to

21     check this out, and I asked the Prosecutor to disclose to Mr. Seselj all

22     those documents in a hard copy version, which -- and in his own language,

23     as far as a witness which was a Prosecution witness, it is important that

24     Mr. Seselj have all the documents, the 1996 statement, 1997, the written

25     statements made in 2005, as well as the transcript pages of his testimony

Page 7063

 1     in Belgrade in 2006.

 2             So since this is a Prosecution witness, the accused should have

 3     received five documents, at the least.  This is -- I don't know what the

 4     issue revolves around.  The previous proceedings were a bit of a mess,

 5     but now we know where we stand, but we still have to deal with the

 6     adverse effects of this.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] On the transcript in Belgrade,

 8     this was a transcript on the 10th of March, 2008, number 275 in the

 9     92 bis package, this was disclosed in several goes; on the 13th of May,

10     2008, 349 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Please read slowly, Mr. Dutertre, please.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] ...  and 59, letter 59, on the

13     13th --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the date.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I can disclose this to Mr. Seselj

16     and to the Bench.  As soon as I have enough copies, I can distribute

17     these.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I insist on claiming that this has

20     not been disclosed to me.  And, Mr. President, you ordered, right at the

21     beginning of the trial, that the Prosecution must prepare a full set of

22     documents pertaining to that witness before he comes to testify,

23     regardless of whether the documents have been disclosed at an earlier

24     date or not.  I remember that quite clearly, and the Prosecution is not

25     meeting this obligation fully.  It is disclosing documents that it

Page 7064

 1     chooses to.  It should, however, provide all the documents in the folder

 2     for that witness.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, in the future for

 4     all Prosecution witnesses, please check that if a witness, X, Y or Z, has

 5     made or provided written statements, has testified, that all of this has

 6     been properly disclosed to Mr. Seselj and that you have the proof that he

 7     has received the documents, i.e., acknowledgment of receipt, to avoid any

 8     problem in the future.

 9             MR. MUNDIS:  That will be done, Mr. President.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

11             In addition, Mr. Mundis, since you are here in the courtroom, I

12     would like to impart to you something which the Trial Chamber wishes to

13     see in the future.

14             Mr. Ulemek, we discovered that this person was tried and

15     convicted.  This was something which was addressed during the hearing.

16     We feel that we have insufficient information.  We have not much

17     knowledge about legal proceedings against some people who are mentioned

18     in the statements provided by the witnesses, and the Trial Chamber would

19     like to have all the documents that relate to these witnesses that have

20     been tried in other cases.  And there are two documents which are

21     important; the indictment relating to them and the judgements, if

22     judgements there are.

23             In the case of Mr. Ulemek, for instance, who was part of the

24     quatro that was arrested by this witness, I understand that he was

25     incriminated in the assassination of the former prime minister.

Page 7065

 1     Therefore, it would be perfectly logical for the Bench to have these

 2     documents, i.e., the indictment against Ulemek and the judgement that

 3     convicted him, that sentenced him.  We need to have this minimal

 4     information.

 5             You know that the Rules entitle us to do this.  We shall turn to

 6     the Prosecution and ask it to complete this either by interviewing --

 7     having the interview of Mr. Ulemek before the Trial Chamber that

 8     convicted him.  We need to have at least the indictment and the

 9     judgement.  That is the bare minimum that we are entitled to request.

10             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             I take it from those remarks that the Chamber is calling for the

12     production of this evidence, and we will file this material and make it

13     available, and request that it be assigned exhibit numbers as soon as

14     we're able to gather all the material and put it into a comprehensive

15     filing, if you will, and we'll be submitting that for its submission into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course.  Also, disclose it

18     to Mr. Seselj, if he doesn't have it yet.

19             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Alic, you mentioned that on the 5th of April, there was an

22     attack on a column -- on a JNA column in the village of Sapna and that

23     one non-commissioned officer, a sergeant, was killed, and when the army

24     returned fire, a villager from Sapna was also killed.  Is that correct?

25        A.   No, that's not correct.

Page 7066

 1        Q.   How was it, then?

 2        A.   Well, the military column moving through Sapna opened fire first

 3     from the motor vehicles on the buildings, on the mosque.  They opened

 4     fire in order to intimidate the people.

 5        Q.   And who returned fire?

 6        A.   That's when the villagers of the Sapna village returned fire.

 7        Q.   How?  Did they fire from their own homes, from their doors and

 8     windows?

 9        A.   Well, I was not there to see it.

10        Q.   So how could they just spontaneously return fire?  The moment

11     they hear gunfire, they just run to their windows, they grab their

12     machine-guns, their rifles, and they open fire?  Were they organised in

13     order to be able to return fire, if indeed the army was the first to open

14     fire, or did they just sporadically return fire as they grabbed their

15     weapons?  How was it, then, Mr. Alic?

16        A.   Well, let me tell you one thing.  This was not the first case

17     where the army column would come and then the soldiers would open fire.

18     Every single column moving from Usice, from Valjevo, as they passed

19     through Mali Zvornik, as they crossed the bridge at Karakaj, I myself

20     witnessed that.  I was at the Public Security Station.

21        Q.   Mr. Alic, please do not waste my time.  Let me just get from you

22     what happened in Sapna.  I'm not interested in the broad picture.

23             You said that in Sapna, there was a clash between the army

24     personnel and the people from Sapna?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please, Mr. Seselj.

Page 7067

 1             You made a mistake when you asked the witness to only focus on

 2     Sapna.  The witness is saying that this was common practice on the part

 3     of the army.  When they arrived in an area, they started shooting.  If

 4     that is a common practice, well, then, maybe this is what was done in

 5     this village.  So this may stand to reason.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first clash that

 7     occurred in the territory of Zvornik was the one in the village of Sapna,

 8     and there is no logic to what the witness is trying to do now.  That was

 9     the first clash.  That was when the first casualties occurred, and that's

10     where it all started.  A JNA column was moving from Tuzla to Zvornik, and

11     in the village of Sapna it was ambushed.  There was gunfire directed at

12     the column, and this warrant officer, a non-commissioned officer, was

13     killed.  The army personnel returned fire, and one of the villagers who

14     took part in the ambush was also killed.

15        Q.   You know that when this clash occurred, that four or five

16     soldiers went missing?  Mr. Alic, you should know that.  You are aware of

17     that?

18        A.   Well, what you said earlier is not correct.

19        Q.   Well, I'm not expecting you to be entirely honest.  Let us move

20     on.  I said what I had to say.  You said what you had to say.  You,

21     yourself, said you did not know that, that you were not in Sapna?

22        A.   But my sources of information say it the way it is.

23        Q.   Well, then tell me, how was it?  The army personnel came in, they

24     opened fire.  How did the villagers respond spontaneously from the barns,

25     they ran into their doorways, windows; how did they respond?

Page 7068

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Witness.  The

 2     question by Mr. Seselj has been well put, so please answer the question.

 3     We can clearly see the situation.  The JNA arrives in the village and

 4     something happens.  So please tell us what you know about this, because

 5     Mr. Seselj has a theory which he is developing, in his eyes, and it's

 6     important also for the Trial Chamber.  Before Zvornik, this incident

 7     occurred in Sapna, and according to his theory, the JNA fell in an ambush

 8     or was ambushed, so this is why he's putting this question to you.  So

 9     please answer the question according to what you know.  If you can't

10     answer the question, do not speculate or misconstrue this.  This is how

11     the truth can emerge.

12             Mr. Seselj, please proceed with your questions.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you know that in the course of this clash, five JNA soldiers

15     went missing, four or five, from that column?  I cannot be more specific

16     than that.  Do you know that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Do you know that the commander of the Tank Battalion, Captain

19     Dragan Obrenovic, threatened that if the soldiers were not freed

20     immediately, that he would raze Sapna to the ground?

21        A.   Yes, I do know that.

22        Q.   Do you know that that very same Captain Dragan Obrenovic was

23     tried here before this Tribunal; in the meantime, he was promoted to the

24     rank of colonel?

25        A.   Well, I don't know that.

Page 7069

 1        Q.   Very well.  I wanted to ask you if you knew that he actually made

 2     a plea bargain with the Prosecution.  But if you don't know that, we will

 3     not explore that with you.  We will do that through other witnesses.  So

 4     we will deal with Dragan Obrenovic in detail.

 5             Do you know that after that, the villagers of Sapna, the armed

 6     inhabitants of Sapna, handed over the four or five soldiers to the army?

 7        A.   Yes, I know that.

 8        Q.   So you know that.  And then on the next day, the 6th of April,

 9     did Colonel Tacic come to Zvornik and issue an ultimatum for the

10     hand-over of weapons?

11        A.   Well, I know that he came, and I personally escorted

12     Colonel Tacic from the barricade to the municipality building.

13        Q.   Was it the aim of his going there to ask for the surrender of

14     weapons?

15        A.   Well, I did not attend the meeting.  I don't know what was

16     discussed, but I heard from the police chief, who did attend the meeting,

17     that this was one of the topics discussed.

18        Q.   In your statement, at page 5, you said:

19             "My chief informed me that the colonel had called him to talk

20     about the hand-over of all the weapons on the part of the Zvornik

21     authorities."

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Were weapons handed over to Colonel Tacic?

24        A.   Well, there was an order earlier whereby the JNA seized all the

25     weapons from the Territorial Defence, but the weapons that we're talking

Page 7070

 1     about were not handed over.

 2        Q.   Since the weapons were not handed over, Colonel Tacic said that

 3     Zvornik would be attacked unless the weapons were handed over; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That was on the 6th; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   And on the 8th, there was this clash in Zvornik; is that correct?

 9        A.   Well, there was no crash in Zvornik.  There -- what happened was

10     an attack on Zvornik.

11        Q.   Well, if Serbs had to leave Zvornik because you had distributed

12     weapons to a large number of criminals in Zvornik, and that made them

13     feel insecure, well, then we can't talk about an attack on Zvornik,

14     because the Serbs had moved out of Zvornik and then started off to

15     reclaim -- recapture their town, and they had the support from the

16     volunteers and the army?

17        A.   That's not correct at all.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Is this a question or is

19     Mr. Seselj testifying on what happened in Zvornik?  Still, the witness

20     said that weapons had been widely given to criminals.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, the scenario

22     could be the following, and here this is conditional:  The JNA goes

23     towards the village of Sapna.  The JNA's ambushed.  Obviously, something

24     happened, because at first you didn't say anything, and then after a

25     number of questions with Mr. Seselj, you agreed with him and said that

Page 7071

 1     four soldiers from the JNA had been captured by the villagers.  Very

 2     well, but this is an armed column --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  "Armoured column," interpreter's correction.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you can imagine the

 5     situation, and of course there will be negotiations, and these four

 6     soldiers are released.  And the JNA finds out that the villagers are

 7     armed, and because of this, Colonel Tacic goes to Zvornik and officially

 8     asks for these weapons to be handed over, all weapons, and he poses an

 9     ultimatum in that respect.

10             On the 8th, the ultimatum is actually implemented.  This is the

11     scenario put forward by Mr. Seselj, through his questions and through

12     your answers.

13             Now, we would like to know whether this assumption is possible,

14     whether it's completely false.  You were there, so what can you tell us

15     about this?  But tell the truth.  We want the truth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there has been a swap

17     of arguments here.  The JNA column had free passage to go anywhere.  It

18     could not have been ambushed or trapped anywhere, because at that time

19     the people still trusted the Yugoslav People's Army.  But because there

20     were those large-scale incidents wherever they passed, the people still

21     tolerated that.  They waited patiently for better times to come.

22             When this column -- when columns passed through, they would

23     always fire in the air, fire at mosques, at other buildings, in order to

24     intimidate the people, in order to create some kind of a psychological

25     effect in the people, insecurity, and it is a fact that the villagers of

Page 7072

 1     Sapna were armed, some of them.  They had purchased the weapons, whereas

 2     the Serbs got their weapons from the Yugoslav People's Army.  This was

 3     distributed to them in a systematic manner, with the police going house

 4     to house escorting a military truck from village to village, from house

 5     to house, leaving the weapons at the doorstep.

 6             On the other hand, Muslims had to buy weapons with their own

 7     money, and that's the truth.  And they were armed, but to a lesser

 8     extent.

 9             Colonel Tacic issued this ultimatum, but only to one side, to the

10     Muslim side.  He asked them to hand over their weapons, whereas as far as

11     Serbs were concerned, he actually provided weapons to them.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, how can you explain

13     that four soldiers in a motorised column, maybe even an armoured column,

14     were actually captured?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the shooting started, those

16     soldiers jumped out of the trucks and they ran into the village, and they

17     went to the first home that they encountered, and the people there took

18     them in.  And it was already communicated, the fact that those people

19     were there in those houses, and the police simply came in and picked them

20     up.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll proceed after the break.

22     It's already 10 after 10.00, and we will resume in 20 minutes.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.09 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.31 a.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed, and the

Page 7073

 1     cross-examination can proceed.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, before doing that, I have

 3     to tell you something.

 4             A moment ago, I objected to the fact that Mr. Alic's statement

 5     was not disclosed to me, the statement of 2005, and now, during the

 6     break, the Prosecution provided me with two statements, two from 2006 and

 7     one -- one from 2006 and the other from 2007.  And in keeping with

 8     Rule 92 bis, confirmation or certificate.  Now, I received that, that's

 9     true, but here we heard Mr. Alic made a statement in 2005, and that's the

10     one I don't have much all I have is an agreement from Mr. Alic that his

11     previous statements can be used in trials before the International

12     Tribunal or other institutions, as the formulation is here.

13             Anyway, if there was a misunderstanding, the misunderstanding was

14     caused by the Prosecutor.  Now I want to ask the following question:  Is

15     there a third statement by Mr. Alic before the proofing session that the

16     Prosecution had with him three days ago?  If there has, I've still not be

17     disclosed of it.  Now, if they call the statement of 2005, provided by

18     the authorised official, I'm asking why they're calling this authorised

19     official's version a statement by Mr. Alic.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             We're glad that Mr. Seselj has confirmed that he has already

23     obtained these documents.  Then is the 92 bis package of 1995 covering

24     1996 and 1997?  There's no ambiguity there.  I have a list here of

25     everything that was disclosed, with a disclosure letter.  If it's useful,

Page 7074

 1     I may distribute it right now, but it corroborates all the -- it

 2     corroborates the fact that everything was disclosed.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understood you well, in

 4     2005, the document of 2005 is not a new statement.  According to the

 5     92 bis statement, it referred to the statements made in 1996 and 1997.

 6     There is no new written statement for July 2005.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, this is in the

 8     92 bis procedure.  There is no new statement.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             Please, Mr. Seselj, proceed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that is really the case, then I

12     assume everything has been cleared up.  But still there is a shadow of

13     doubt, as far as I'm concerned, but I can't do anything else and act upon

14     it.  So I'll have to be satisfied with the explanation just given.

15        Q.   Anyway, Mr. Alic, here you state that members of the Serbian

16     Radical Party, and you said that in several places, took part in the

17     conflicts in Zvornik; is that right?

18        A.   There was no conflict in Zvornik.  They launched an attack on

19     Zvornik.

20        Q.   Well, the side that was attacked, I assume, defended itself.  You

21     shot, didn't you, and then you became afraid and fled.  Fadil Mujic said

22     that nobody during that attack on your side was killed.  Do you know that

23     statement by Fadil Mujic?  He was the chief of the crime department.

24        A.   He probably said that, yes.

25        Q.   You say that somebody was killed during that conflict?

Page 7075

 1        A.   Nobody in the police force.

 2        Q.   I see.  But there was a conflict, and I state that the attack was

 3     launched by those who had previously taken control of Zvornik, armed the

 4     citizens, among them criminals, and that this led to the exodus of the

 5     Serb population.  You said that the attack was launched by those who

 6     entered into the conflict on the 8th of April, so we don't have to agree

 7     on that matter.  We were on opposite sides, so we can disagree.  But you

 8     heard that members of the Serbian Radical Party arrived there; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   As a highly-positioned police official, you know that volunteers

12     of the Serbian Radical Party came to Mali Zvornik from Belgrade; am I

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   As a high police official, I assume that you must have known how

16     it was that the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party came to

17     Mali Zvornik from Belgrade.  Somebody must have reported that, informed

18     you of that?

19        A.   We knew that they were -- that they came there frequently, but

20     that was in Serbia, not Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   This came frequently, I really don't know what that means.  They

22     came once and they came in two buses.  Were you aware of that?

23        A.   Just on one occasion, that was.

24        Q.   That was just prior to the conflict; isn't that right?

25        A.   I really don't know.  I don't know how many of them arrived, but

Page 7076

 1     I know that there were quite a few of them.

 2        Q.   Well, I'll tell you.  They came in two busloads, two busloads of

 3     them arrived, and you know that Arkan's men came, too; is that right?

 4        A.   I can claim what I know for certain, and this is what I know:  I

 5     know that from seeing people who were in the Public Security Station, who

 6     had been taken into custody, that's the best proof, as far as I'm

 7     concerned.

 8        Q.   Mr. Alic, we haven't come to that yet.  Why are you trying to

 9     escape from the topic we're discussing?  You heard and say in your

10     statement that Arkan's men arrived, and then you said that they held the

11     barricade at Karakaj; isn't that what you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I don't know if Arkan's men were indeed in Karakaj, but I do know

14     that that's where the Serb police in Zvornik had its headquarters; right?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   So Arkan's men arrived.  Do you know how Arkan's men arrived?

17        A.   I know on that on the previous day, the police patrol that went

18     out to Pilica was stopped at the barricade by Arkan's men and was

19     disarmed.

20        Q.   All right.  That means that you don't know that Arkan's men

21     arrived by bus as well?

22        A.   I don't know what means of transport they used, but I know they

23     were there.  I don't know how many that were there, but I know they

24     arrived in buses.

25        Q.   Are you challenging that, when I tell you that they arrived in

Page 7077

 1     buses?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down and pauses

 3     between question and answer for the benefit of one and all.  Thank you.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You know that there was a tank battalion there which held four

 6     positions in the area around Zvornik, commanded by Dragan Obrenovic; do

 7     you know that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.  The armoured battalion came from Jastrebarsko,

 9     withdrawing from Croatia, and went to Celopek.

10        Q.   Now, you should know that the JNA had engaged a certain number of

11     reservists from the Zvornik area.  Isn't that right?

12        A.   That is right.

13        Q.   Now, among the reservists -- were the reservists mostly Serbs or

14     almost exclusively Serbs?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is that because the Muslims refused to respond to the JNA call-up

17     to become included in the reserve force?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   Is it also true and correct that the Muslim authorities from

20     Sarajevo, and personally present, Alija Izetbegovic, called upon the

21     Muslims not to respond to the call-up for mobilisation of the reserve

22     force?

23        A.   That is correct, because the Muslims were sent to battle fronts

24     in Croatia, so that was the reason they were told not to respond to that

25     call-up.

Page 7078

 1        Q.   That might have been the reason.  I'm not interested in the

 2     reasons, I'm not going to go into that.  I'm just interested in facts.

 3     So we agree there about the facts.

 4             So the Muslims were set aside through their own free will.  They

 5     were called up to join the reserve force, and the structure would have

 6     been the same as the national composition was, had they responded?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the interpreters

 8     are begging you once again to speak slower to make breaks.  You know,

 9     they're doing excellent work.  Sometimes they manage to translate in

10     realtime, but sometimes, you know, they have a very hard time trying to

11     follow you because you're going so fast.  Please slow down.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I'll slow down, I'll

13     promise to slow down, but I don't know how long I'll be able to keep my

14     promise, because very often to be quite frank I forget my promises.  And

15     since Mr. Alic and I understand each other very well, although we're on

16     opposite sides, that's what happens.

17        Q.   Mr. Alic, had all the Muslims responded to the call-up to go to

18     the reserve force of the JNA, would that mean that the structure of those

19     units, those JNA units, would have been identical to the structure of the

20     population of Zvornik Municipality, so almost 50/50, a little more

21     Muslims perhaps than Serbs, but roughly 50/50?

22        A.   No, that wouldn't have meant that.

23        Q.   Why not?

24        A.   Because the Muslims in that war were just being used, and

25     ultimately what happened to us in Bosnia-Herzegovina happened.

Page 7079

 1        Q.   Well, these are all assumptions and speculation, what would have

 2     happened if this happened.  Anyway, what would have happened, Mr. Alic,

 3     had the Muslim authorities from Sarajevo proclaimed the independence of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Would there have been war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 5        A.   Yes, there would.

 6        Q.   Why?

 7        A.   Because your aspirations and those for a Greater Serbia would

 8     have meant a new Yugoslavia and Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, no part of

 9     Croatia.

10        Q.   But leave aside my aspirations, Mr. Alic.  I was an individual at

11     the head of a very small party and the only deputy in Parliament.  Do you

12     know about the Belgrade Declaration?

13        A.   I don't.

14        Q.   Do you know that an agreement was reached with the -- between the

15     authorities in Belgrade and Izetbegovic, personally, that

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina should remain within the composition of a rump

17     Yugoslavia and that Izetbegovic should be the first president of such a

18     Yugoslavia?  Do you know about that, do you know of that agreement?

19        A.   I do not.  That was politics.  I don't enter into politics.

20        Q.   All right.  If you don't, I'm not going to force you to state

21     your views in the matter.

22             Now, on several occasions here, you mentioned Dragan Spasojevic,

23     and he was the commander of the police in Zvornik, was he not?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   And you were his deputy; right?

Page 7080

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you happen to know that Dragan Spasojevic took part in a crime

 3     against the Muslims, any civilians, soldiers, policemen, whatever;

 4     Muslims?

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Now, your relationship with Dragan Spasojevic, were they correct

 7     and proper?

 8        A.   Very correct and professional.

 9        Q.   And you had a good opinion of him, did you not?

10        A.   Yes, mostly.

11        Q.   Okay, fine.  Now, Dragan Spasojevic says hello to you, and sent

12     me his statement, in which he says things about those same events -- he

13     talks about the same events that you talked about.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj's first comment is

16     totally inappropriate as to what Mr. Dragan Spasojevic can say to the

17     witness.  As for the rest, he may proceed.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand that objection

20     from the Prosecutor.  What could Dragan Spasojevic say to the witness?  I

21     have Dragan Spasojevic's statement here before me, and I want to show it

22     to the witness.  Could it be placed on the overhead projector?  I've

23     tried to ensure photocopying of this document.  However, the photocopy

24     machine was otherwise engaged, so that was not possible.  It was working

25     elsewhere.

Page 7081

 1             Have you already copied it?  Have you handed it 'round.  If you

 2     have, that's very good.  It is 1/1.  Great, so it is successful.  I

 3     thought we were going to have problems with the photocopying procedure.

 4             Anyway, let's put this on the overhead projector, it is

 5     Dragan Spasojevic's statement, so we can see what he says here.

 6             He says that he knows you personally, he knows that you worked in

 7     Belgrade, that you went to Zvornik, and then what we're interested in is

 8     his statements about what you did in Zvornik.

 9             Is that on our screens, is it on the overhead?  Right.

10             Anyway, Dragan Spasojevic says of you the following:

11             "In Zvornik, he worked to rally the active and reserve police

12     force of Muslim ethnicity and prepared the formation of a Muslim MUP.  He

13     effected close cooperation with a man named Hajra who was sent from the

14     SDA leadership to four Muslim territorial units and to train the military

15     and arm them."

16             Is that correct?

17        A.   No, it is not.

18        Q.   Well, you yourself said that in the police station, on two

19     occasions meetings were held of the Crisis Staff, the crisis staff of a

20     political party, the Party of Democratic Action, which rallied Muslims,

21     and that you attended those meetings; is that correct?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   All right, fine.  And then Spasojevic goes on to state the

24     following:

25             "Asim Alic became actively included in infiltrating members of

Page 7082

 1     the paramilitary units of the Patriotic League into the reserve force of

 2     the police of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and thereby through regular

 3     channels armed the units of the Patriotic League."

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   No, it's not.

 6        Q.   And who, then, Mr. Alic, just prior to the conflict, distributed

 7     a full set of weapons from the police station in Zvornik to the Muslim

 8     population, then?

 9        A.   The populous broke through into the de-person warehouse and

10     picked up the weapons themselves.

11        Q.   And armed themselves well?

12        A.   Well, there wasn't much weapons there.

13        Q.   Well, several hundred automatic rifles were there, weren't there?

14        A.   That's not true.

15        Q.   What did you say?

16        A.   That piece of information is not true.

17        Q.   All right, then.  How many automatic rifles were there?

18        A.   Before that, the entire reserve force of the police was called

19     up, and they were 50 per cent Serbs, 50 per cent Muslims at the time, and

20     they were armed with those weapons and they were our reserve policemen,

21     our reserve force, because in our warehouses there might have been just a

22     certain number of weapons which were issued to the active police force

23     and also to the reserve police force.  They had no other reserves.

24        Q.   And as you said, the people broke through into the warehouses,

25     and how many rifles did they come across there?

Page 7083

 1        A.   Very few.

 2        Q.   I see, very few weapons, very few rifles.  Anyway, Spasojevic

 3     goes on to say about you that in October 1991, he or you took part in the

 4     formation of the first units of the Patriotic League in the village of

 5     Godus where to this day there is a monument as a remembrance of that

 6     event.  Is that true?

 7        A.   This is not true at all.  In October, I moved to Zvornik to work,

 8     and here it says "seven months ago."

 9        Q.   Here it says "in October 1991."  That's the fifth paragraph on

10     page 1.

11        A.   Well, I moved from Belgrade to Zvornik only in October to work,

12     so I didn't know the people, I didn't know the place.  How was I then

13     supposed to organise all that?  That's not true.

14        Q.   Well, it doesn't say here that you organised it.  It says here

15     that you participated in the forming.

16        A.   Well, that's not true, either.

17        Q.   And is there a monument commemorating this event?

18        A.   Well, at the entrance to the village of Godus, there is a plaque

19     where it says that the villagers of the village of Godus were the first

20     to offer resistance to the aggressor, so it is not a monument.

21        Q.   And when did they offer resistance?

22        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I know that there were some

23     skirmishes up at Majevica.

24        Q.   What kind of skirmishes and gunfire in Majevica, Mr. Alic,

25     please?  Come on.  Before the conflict in Zvornik, there was nothing up

Page 7084

 1     there.

 2        A.   Well, then you know more about it than I do.

 3        Q.   Well, yes, because I studied that, and you were not prepped for

 4     your testimony properly.

 5        A.   Well, I was there.

 6        Q.   Mr. Alic, this paragraph that you tried to misinterpret does not

 7     refer to you.  It says here:

 8             "Seven months before the conflict broke out, they set up a unit

 9     of the Patriotic League with about 150 members, with full infantry

10     equipment, clothes, helmets, flak-jackets, automatic weapons.  This event

11     engendered a response on the Serbian side.  The Serbs started arming

12     themselves because of the bad experience from the Second World War with

13     the Muslims.  Is that correct?

14        A.   No, it's not.

15        Q.   No?  Fair enough.  Is it true that when Cutileiro's plan was

16     passed in March 1992, Momcilo Mandic sent an official dispatch calling

17     for the MUP employees in Zvornik to state their affiliation, which side

18     they wanted to be on; is that correct?

19        A.   Well, that's not how it was worded.

20        Q.   How was it worded, then?

21        A.   We'd received a dispatch from the Federal Secretariat of the

22     Interior that we should go to our rally in Sarajevo to express our

23     commitment to have unified police, to lend our support to the unified

24     police force in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   And only the Muslim police officers went there; is that right?

Page 7085

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   That's a different matter.  Are you aware of Momcilo Mandic's

 3     dispatch?

 4        A.   Yes, I know about Momcilo Mandic's dispatch.  It says in there

 5     that all the valuables that were seized and that were in the Public

 6     Security Station should be handed over to the federal SUP, and that's

 7     what we did.

 8        Q.   You're not aware of the other thing?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Did you attend a collegium meeting?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And did you talk about the separation or the division of the MUP

13     in terms of personnel and equipment?

14        A.   Well, there was no such agreement.

15        Q.   Well, Dragan Spasojevic says there was such an agreement and that

16     you attended this?

17        A.   Well, Dragan Spasojevic can say whatever he wants to.  I am

18     saying what I'm saying, and that's correct.

19        Q.   Well, what Dragan Spasojevic is claiming is also true.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, it is impossible to

21     interpret at this rate of speed.  The speakers are kindly asked to slow

22     down and make questions [as interpreted] before questions and answers.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, again I'm sorry that we have to ask

24     you, both of you, to slow down.

25             Mr. Witness, if you could look at the cursor on the screen in

Page 7086

 1     front of you, then you will notice that it stops running when the

 2     interpretation has ended.  That might be another indication for you as to

 3     when you can reply to questions put to you by the accused.  So please be

 4     aware of the movements on the screen in front of you.

 5             Thank you.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Alic, let us move on to the next claim made by

 8     Mr. Spasojevic.  He says:

 9             "Asim Alic, that evening, together with the criminals from

10     Zvornik and members of the Patriotic League, organised and led an action

11     to take the Public Security Station in Zvornik, where a bloodbath was

12     avoided by pure chance.  This incident caused a definitive split in the

13     Zvornik police and of course in the people, among the people too.  That's

14     when the Serb police officers withdrew to Karakaj, where there was a

15     majority Serb population."

16             Is that correct?

17        A.   No, that's not correct.

18        Q.   And what you said, that the people spontaneously broke into the

19     depots, that was not really spontaneous.  You lead the people, did you

20     not?

21        A.   Well, no, I did not.

22        Q.   Well, why should Dragan Spasojevic be lying?

23        A.   Well, what am I supposed to be saying?

24        Q.   Well, you say what you're supposed to say.  That doesn't matter,

25     because the Prosecution trusts Dragan Spasojevic more than it trusts you.

Page 7087

 1             And then he says:

 2             "Alic personally led the group that broke into the depots of the

 3     Public Security Station in Zvornik and seized weapons, uniforms, official

 4     IDs and other equipment of the Minister of the Interior, distributing all

 5     of that to members of the Patriotic League and local criminals."

 6             Listing them, Behulj [phoen], Musadic [phoen], Kalilovic [phoen]

 7     and others:

 8             "This forced all the Serbs to leave Zvornik, and Asim Alic, with

 9     the group that he led, broke into apartments and houses of eminent

10     Serbs - names are listed here, Petko Panic [phoen], Miko Milovanovic

11     [phoen], and Marinko Vasilic [phoen] - and looted those properties.

12     Hardened criminals were stationed at the border crossings with Serbia to

13     prevent Muslims who wanted to cross over into Serbia, because they were

14     aware of the bad situation that Alic and his people created in the city."

15             Is that true, Mr. Alic?

16        A.   Well, that's not true.  That's a notorious lie.

17        Q.   Do you know Petko Panic, Miko Milovanovic and Marinko Vasilic?

18        A.   Petko Panic was a police officer that was my subordinate, and

19     Miko Milovanovic was a colleague of mine, and he was --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, please.

21     Mr. Dutertre is on his feet.

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we briefly move into closed

23     session, please.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 7088











11 Pages 7088-7090 redacted. Private session.















Page 7091

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Alic, let us look at the last paragraph of

19     Dragan Spasojevic's statement at page 1.  It says:

20             "I know that Alic was tasked by AID to mention that among the

21     captured Serbs, there were members of the Serbian Radical Party.  Some

22     people who participated in the arrest talked about that.  I also know for

23     sure that he has been in Sarajevo recently, for seven or eight days, to

24     hold some talks at AID."

25             Is that correct, Mr. Alic?

Page 7092

 1        A.   No, not at all.

 2        Q.   In your examination-in-chief here, you said that you immediately

 3     sent a dispatch to Sarajevo and to Tuzla about the fact that four Serbs,

 4     wearing uniforms, fully armed, had been arrested.  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before moving on to the four

 7     whom you arrested, it is mentioned that you went to Sarajevo and there

 8     you met the State Security Services or Intelligence Services, and at

 9     their request you said that Mr. Seselj could be involved in one way or

10     another.  So let me remind you that you have taken the oath and that you

11     have said that you will tell all the truth.  If ever we discover that

12     there was a meeting in Sarajevo and that you tell us the opposite, well,

13     then you will be charged with contempt of court.

14             So what do you have to say to these statements made by the

15     witness, who says, "I know that Mr. Alic met AID"?  Is it true or is this

16     not true?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not true at all.  I never

18     met with any AID officials, and I don't know where their headquarters is

19     in Sarajevo at all.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   A little while ago, the AID changed its name, did it not,

23     Mr. Alic?

24        A.   I know that there was some talk about that, but I don't know the

25     exact name, because it is an organizational unit that has nothing to do

Page 7093

 1     with us.

 2        Q.   Is it maybe SIPA, S-I-P-A, or close?

 3        A.   No, it is not SIPA.

 4        Q.   Now, at page 2, Dragan Spasojevic describes the way in which the

 5     four people were freed.  He describes the role of Fadil Mujic, and you

 6     confirm that Fadil Mujic had assisted in obtaining their release; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Let me just read it.

 9        Q.   And in return, Fadil Mujic was allowed to leave Zvornik through

10     Serbia and go to Germany; is that right?  Just to go through briefly

11     through all these passages so I don't have to read all that.  Is it true

12     that Fadil Mujic released the four and was allowed in return to go to

13     Germany via Serbia?

14        A.   Yes, that's what Fadil told me.

15        Q.   Let's not dwell on this for a long time, because I will have the

16     opportunity to discuss this with other people.

17             Now, let me move to the third passage, because it concerns you.

18     Spasojevic says:

19             "When the war began, Asim Alic fled to Tuzla, and on the 22nd of

20     May, 1992, he went from Tuzla to Sapna and was appointed the commander of

21     the Public Security Station.  A terrible crime against Serbs and the

22     ethnic cleansing of Serbs happened in Sapna at that time.  He personally

23     led the police in the effort to ethnically cleanse and kill the Serb

24     civilians in the villages of Rizanj, Zavid, Rastosnica, and Laze,

25     et cetera.  While he was the commander in Sapna, all the Serbs were

Page 7094

 1     either killed or expelled, and it became a 100 per cent ethnically pure

 2     Muslim territory."

 3             Is that correct?

 4        A.   No, that's not correct.

 5        Q.   Is it true that all the Serbs in Sapna disappeared?

 6        A.   Well, there was no Serbs in Sapna.  Sapna was a ethnically-pure

 7     Muslim village.

 8        Q.   How can you say that in Rizanj, Zavid, Rastosnica, and Laze,

 9     there were no Serbs?  These are all villages around Sapna; is that so?

10     Sapna is now a municipality, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And all those villages are in the municipality of Sapna?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Where are the Serbs from those villages, Mr. Alic?

15        A.   They left.

16        Q.   And how many of them were killed?

17        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't have the figure.

18        Q.   And as the commander of the Public Security Station in Sapna, did

19     you ever file any criminal reports against any Muslim soldiers,

20     paramilitaries, police officers, armed civilians, for crimes against

21     Serbs; murder, beatings, looting of property, burning of houses?

22        A.   Well, it was not in my jurisdiction.

23        Q.   In whose jurisdiction was that?

24        A.   Military security.

25        Q.   Well, that's if somebody from the regular army commits a crime.

Page 7095

 1     If a civilian commits a crime, an armed civilian, under whose

 2     jurisdiction were such crimes?

 3        A.   Under our jurisdiction, but there were no such crimes.

 4        Q.   But who burned all those Serb houses in those villages?

 5        A.   Well, I can't answer that question.

 6        Q.   Well, you can't, you can't.  Let us move on.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we find out, because

 8     this is something I did not know, you commanded the police in Sapna, and

 9     this something I didn't know about, either; seemingly, some Serbs were

10     killed.  As a police commander of the civilian police, you should have

11     carried out investigations.  If the investigations established that the

12     perpetrators of the crimes are policemen or belonging to the military,

13     then you are quite right, it is for the military police and the military

14     prosecutor to carry out the investigation and do what is necessary.  But

15     if it so happens that among those people who perpetrated these acts, some

16     people were civilians, then it was for you to do something about it.

17             Your answer is elliptical.  If you can tell us, as a commander of

18     the police forces, of the civilian police in Sapna, whether you carried

19     out any investigations after some people disappeared or some people were

20     killed.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't any such cases.  What

22     is stated here is not the truth.  Sapna is an exclusively Muslim place,

23     inhabited by Muslims.  Now, the places that Mr. Seselj mentions, there

24     were Serbs there, but in the military operations they were cleansed, in

25     military operations.

Page 7096

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Very well, Mr. Alic.  Dragan Spasojevic goes on to say:

 5             "In the course of 1993," and he's referring to you, "Because of

 6     his merits, he was appointed chief of the police in Sapna."

 7             So that's a higher post and command?  Isn't that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Near his office, for days, there was the head of a Serb,

10     Cedo Nikolic, impaled on a pole, whom the Muslims had taken prisoner, had

11     captured in a purely Serb village of Boskovic?

12        A.   That's a notorious lie.

13        Q.   Had you heard of Cedo Nikolic?

14        A.   No, but such things never happened in those areas.  That's

15     ludicrous.

16        Q.   Well, you don't assume that Dragan Spasojevic is lying, these are

17     total lies, or why would a colleague of yours lie when you say you're on

18     good terms?

19        A.   Well, I'm asking that myself.

20        Q.   He goes on to say about you:

21             "He left Sapna because of crimes and the trafficking -- illegal

22     trafficking of cigarettes, and through his criminal associates, he was

23     placed commander of the Tuzla Canton MUP units, and that unit was well

24     known because of its special brutality in the ethnic cleansing of Vozuca

25     and the surrounding Serb villages."

Page 7097

 1             Is that true?

 2        A.   That is a notorious lie, too.

 3        Q.   Is it true that your unit took part in the -- in taking control

 4     of Vozuca?

 5        A.   Well, I know those areas better than you, and that's not true.

 6        Q.   You didn't take part in taking control of Vozuca?

 7        A.   My unit was in Vozuca to protect the material property there,

 8     because the army had already freed it.

 9        Q.   And where are the Serb civilians from Vozuca?

10        A.   They left together with the army, when the army withdrew.

11        Q.   Well, why did they leave?

12        A.   Ask the 2nd Corps that, who liberated the area.

13        Q.   And who is the commander of the 2nd Corps?

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   How do you not know who the commander of the 2nd Corps was of

16     your army, how could you not know that?  How should I know if you don't?

17        A.   Well, I see you know everything, so you should know that, too.

18        Q.   You're the witness here, not me.  When I am a witness, I'll say

19     what I know, but now you must tell me who the commander of the 2nd Corps

20     was.

21        A.   I don't remember the name.  There were three of them.

22     Zeljko Knez was there first, then there was Azim Sadic, and after that

23     there was -- there was another commander.  I don't know his name.

24        Q.   All right, fine.  If you happen to remember, tell us.

25        A.   Okay.

Page 7098

 1        Q.   After the war, he issued false documents in the name of those who

 2     had died, were killed, or Muslims living abroad, so that in that way he

 3     could populate places in the Republika Srpska with Muslims, and then

 4     these names are mentioned, Mahala Jusici, Dugi Do; is that correct?

 5        A.   They're all Muslim places that you are mentioning now, and this

 6     is one of a series of lies that he is putting forward.  And I'd like to

 7     see that letter if possible, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Of course, this will all be published in the newspaper in a few

 9     days, but he says they aren't Muslims places -- Mahala Jusici and Dugi Do

10     are Muslim places, but what he says is this:  That the Muslims who lived

11     there, that they had either died, been killed, or left and took up

12     residence abroad.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

14             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I'm sorry for

15     interrupting, but I would like to seek certification of the decision you

16     handed down a few moments ago as regards a document quoted by Mr. Seselj

17     and the protective measures therein.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you are saying this in

19     open session.

20             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] But I haven't quoted any names,

21     but we can move into private session.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall move into private

23     session, and in the meantime, before redaction is ordered, so, please,

24     Mr. Registrar, please issue an order for this to be redacted, and the

25     Trial Chamber will deliberate instantly.

Page 7099

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber, after having

 3     deliberated on the matter, has rejected the request for certification in

 4     open session.

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have a second issue which is not

 6     connected to the first one.

 7             The documents which Mr. Seselj relies on during his

 8     cross-examination were given to me when the cross-examination had started

 9     already.  I believe that this is a problem, and the OTP can legitimately

10     expect these documents to be provided to him before the beginning of the

11     cross-examination.  I would like a decision to be taken on the matter,

12     which I think it's an issue relating to the equality of arms.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this document which

14     you had received, according to the fax number we can read on the

15     document, this seems to indicate that you received it on the 15th of May,

16     at 13 minutes past 2.00.  No, the 14th of May.  How is it that you did

17     not disclose this at the start of the hearing to the Prosecution, since

18     you have mentioned this document in the middle of your cross-examination?

19             I remember that you had asked to have a copy, you wanted to make

20     copies and the photocopying machine wasn't working properly.  How can you

21     explain this?  The document reached you on the 14th of May and was not

22     disclosed in B/C/S to the Prosecutor this morning before the commencement

23     of your cross-examination.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I really did receive

25     the document on the 14th of May, during the examination-in-chief,

Page 7100

 1     somewhere towards the end of the in-chief.  So I had to read it first,

 2     this document and other documents which I received.  Then I had to make a

 3     selection, and then on Friday -- or, rather, on Thursday and Friday --

 4     or, rather, on Friday and Saturday, I had from 9.00 until 1.00 a visit by

 5     high-ranking officials of the Serbian Radical Party, Tomislav Nikolic and

 6     Dragan Todorovic, and I assume you're aware of the fact that we're

 7     forming a new government in Serbia, and the party whose president I still

 8     am is taking part in the formation of that government, so we had to hold

 9     consultations about that, and I'm still the party President, although I'm

10     a prisoner here of the enemies of the Serbs.  And in the afternoon, my

11     wife visited me.  On Thursday -- or, rather, Friday, Saturday, in the

12     afternoon, Sunday morning, and all day Monday.

13             So quite literally, I didn't have any time to take any steps with

14     respect to photocopying, and today, as soon as I arrived here, Mr. Ram

15     came from the Registry, and I gave him those documents over to him to

16     have them copied, and I was afraid they would not be copied because the

17     photocopying machine was engaged.  So what else could I do?  You know

18     that the prison authorities don't wish to provide me with any

19     photocopying facilities.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your explanations

21     are satisfactory.  You told us and you explained why you were not able,

22     in did due time, to disclose these documents.

23             However, I would have to tell you that I disagree on part of what

24     you said.  When I agree with you, I tell you, but when I disagree, I also

25     tell you.

Page 7101

 1             You said, "I'm here as a prisoner of those who are against the

 2     Serbs."  Well, I can tell you that you're not my prisoner, as far as I'm

 3     concerned.  And as far as the Bench is concerned, we are not anti-Serb,

 4     as you seem to say or hint.

 5             I wanted this to be said so that everything is clear.

 6             Mr. Dutertre.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't really know how difficult

 8     this is materially, but I did -- I only obtained these documents during

 9     the break, and the cross-examination hardly started.  I spent quite a

10     while during the examination-in-chief, and I believe that this time could

11     have been used to make the photocopies so that I could get the documents

12     before the cross-examination started.

13             I don't know when exactly Mr. Seselj gave these documents, but if

14     he had handed them over to the Registry in due time, we could have had

15     the photocopies before the cross-examination started, and I think

16     practically it would be good if things were run that way.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a problem with this

19     objection.  Through this objection, we would not want too much importance

20     to be given to this document.  Let me repeat what I have said on many

21     occasions.

22             This document is a statement made by a witness.  We don't know

23     how it was made.  We don't know much.  We only know what is written in

24     this document, but it doesn't prove that things happened that way.  The

25     only thing that is certified is the signature of the person making the

Page 7102

 1     statement.

 2             Mr. Seselj is using this document to ask questions.  He was

 3     allowed to do this.  He is allowed to do this, but I want things to be

 4     very clear.  This -- according to me, this document should not be given

 5     too much importance.  The only thing we provide importance to is the

 6     answers given by the witness.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

 8             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I fully agree with this, I

 9     support this, but I would like to make sure that in the future, we have

10     the documents in time.  And I don't want to focus on this document, but

11     we should have the document in time so that the OTP can get ready.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Seselj, I fully

13     support what my fellow Judge just said.  Of course you may ask a question

14     using a document, but as to the probative value, remember that we have a

15     witness that is under oath.  He is challenging what is in the statement.

16     When your own witness comes to testify, he will also be under oath.  He

17     will also answer your questions.  I'm sure you will use this document to

18     ask your questions.  And then the probative value of the document might

19     possibly be at the same level as what the witness is saying today.  This

20     is the way things work, and you know it as well as I do.  So my fellow

21     Judge was absolutely right to point this out.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, had I not had the

24     assistance of persons who were direct participants in these historical

25     events, I would have absolutely no idea about them.  What would I know

Page 7103

 1     about Mr. Alic had Dragan Spasojevic not come to my assistance and

 2     written what he knows about him?  So I can't just invent questions for

 3     Mr. Alic.  And during the examination-in-chief, I drew your attention to

 4     the contradictions in his various statements, and the Prosecutor did his

 5     best to hide them.  But I wasn't there, I have no idea what happened, and

 6     I would never have learned what had happened over there if I had not been

 7     accused here of something I did not take part in.

 8             Now that I have information, I have sources of where I got the

 9     information, so this is proof that I'm not inventing things, since you

10     assumed on many occasions that perhaps I might be inventing things along

11     the way.

12             And let me tell you one more thing.  When I said that I was a

13     prisoner here of Serb enemies, the enemies of Serbs, well, I didn't think

14     of you, personally, or your colleagues.  True Frenchmen cannot be an

15     enemy of the Serbs, but we have French regimes from Mitterrand onwards

16     who are expressly anti-Serb.  But I do believe that many Frenchmen, most

17     Frenchmen are the friends of Serbs from World War I, I know that the

18     Italians were friends of ours, and we've never had any conflicts with the

19     Danes, perhaps because we're very far away from them, that might be one

20     reason; but there was never any hostility or enemy feelings.

21             Now that your regime is against the Serb people, I assume they

22     might be punished as they were -- the Italians were, so I hope that I

23     will see the day arrive when friends of the Serbs in France will come to

24     power.  This man Sarkozy is even worse than his predecessors.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This is a political speech,

Page 7104

 1     Mr. Seselj, and you're not entitled to do this.  You cannot use this as a

 2     forum to make political speeches.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, what we're

 4     interested in is what happened at the time.  The rest of what you're

 5     saying might be interesting, but please say it in another forum.

 6             So please proceed with your cross-examination, and maybe -- just

 7     ask the questions that are interesting for your case.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let's round off this question of Dragan Spasojevic.  He says one

10     more thing of you.  He says:

11             "I know that at the moment he's working in the MUP of the Tuzla

12     Canton and that he was suspended for criminal acts."

13             That is to say, receiving bribes and issuing false documents; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   All right.  I like these short answers.  You say it's not

17     correct, he says it is, and we're finished with that.

18             Now, I have another document here.  I don't know whether it's

19     been photocopied, whether we had time for that.  It's from the Centre for

20     Research of Crime committed on the Serb people," signed by the leader of

21     the center Milivoj Ivanisevic.  Have you heard of Milivoj Ivanisevic,

22     Mr. Alic?

23        A.   No, I have not heard of him.

24        Q.   Milivoj Ivanisevic intensively and systematically is doing

25     research into crimes against the Serbian population in

Page 7105

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You know there war crimes against the Muslims,

 2     crimes against the Serbs and crimes against the Croats, and this is

 3     indisputable.  But he deals with one segment, one section of those

 4     crimes, crimes perpetrated against the Serbs in this case.  And in that

 5     centre of his, your name is mentioned, so I'm going to show a document

 6     now and we're going to comment on it briefly which relates to you.

 7             Could you just show the first page?  We're not going to dwell on

 8     it, and move on to page 2 straight away.  But let's have it on the

 9     overhead projector.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Unless I'm

11     wrong, this document was not disclosed to us.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, yes, which document

13     is it?  Your documents have numbers "I1" and "2/3."  Could you tell us

14     exactly which document you're using?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just place page 1 on the overhead

16     projector.  I know it's page 2, but I'm not quite sure.  What number is

17     it, number 2?  Perhaps we didn't have time to photocopy that.  You can

18     see the title page of the document, though.  Perhaps we can leave this

19     document until after the break and I could start off with the documents

20     that you do have in your possession.

21             So shall we leave this for the next session?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You can address

23     these issues after the break.  The document will first be photocopied,

24     because no one has it.  Then the Prosecutor will have a copy, as well as

25     the Bench, and you will ask questions on this document after the break.

Page 7106

 1             So please move on to another document for now.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Alic, let's now come to these four people, deal with these

 4     four people who were stopped at the Muslim barricade towards Karakaj in

 5     the night between the 7th and 8th of April.

 6             In your statements, you say that two of those men had membership

 7     cards of the Serbian Chetnik Movement and the other two of the Serbian

 8     Volunteer Guard; right?

 9        A.   I said that two men had membership cards of the Serbian Chetnik

10     Movement, and parallel to that, membership cards of the Serbian Radical

11     Party.

12        Q.   That is not contained in your 1996 and 1997 statements, and

13     that's what I'm referring to.  Can you now describe to the Judges here

14     what the membership card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement looked like, or

15     identification card?  What did it look like?  How do you remember it as

16     being?

17        A.   The membership card of the Serbian Chetnik Movement was a

18     membership card which, on the first page, had three letters in the

19     Cyrillic, "SCP," which was abbreviated for the Serbian Chetnik Movement,

20     and that was in some sort of circle over which was the Serbian "Tricolor"

21     flag.

22        Q.   How many pages did the membership card of the Serbian Chetnik

23     Movement have?

24        A.   You would open it like you would the former ID cards.  It was a

25     little bigger.

Page 7107

 1        Q.   And how many colours were there on it?

 2        A.   Three.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, the Prosecution showed you

 4     what the Serbian Chetnik Movement ID card looked like.  I think it was

 5     during the evidence of Protected Witness 007 or the witness before that

 6     one, and you were able to see that the Serbian Chetnik Movement ID card

 7     is one small card.  It doesn't have any pages, and it is only one colour.

 8     There is no tri-colour.  It is a dark blue item.  This was shown to you

 9     here, and it was admitted into evidence.  I don't recall the actual

10     exhibit number, but I think that you all remember what the Serbian

11     Chetnik Movement card looked like.

12             I think that the Protected Witness 007 talked about that.  I'm

13     trying to show you now that this witness doesn't even know what this ID

14     card looked like.

15        Q.   Mr. Alic, since you said, about the other two men, that they had

16     ID cards from the Serbian Volunteer Guard, an organisation run by Arkan,

17     you mentioned that Ulemek had an ID card from the French Foreign Legion

18     sewn into somewhere; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So since you were able to find this ID card, which was so well

21     hidden from the French Foreign Legion, did it not occur to you that this

22     man was sent there on some secret task by the French Foreign Legion?

23        A.   No, because he had other ID cards, including that of

24     Arkan's Tigers and the JNA, and out of those three ID cards I could think

25     that anyone might have sent him.

Page 7108

 1        Q.   Well, if he was such a collector, don't you find it strange that

 2     he didn't have one from the Serbian Chetnik Movement?

 3        A.   Well, it didn't surprise me, but, at any rate, he didn't have

 4     one.

 5        Q.   So let us now make this clear.  If the volunteers from the

 6     Serbian Radical Party had arrived by bus the day earlier and if Arkan's

 7     men also came by bus a day or two earlier, how come that now we have four

 8     men here, two from Arkan's men and two Radicals, in a single car and they

 9     get lost?  What do you think about that?

10        A.   Well, I don't know about that.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes.  The conversation was so fast

13     that when we want to raise an objection, it's too late.

14             The witness said, if I remember well, that he didn't know whether

15     the volunteers came by bus or not.  In the question, there's an

16     assumption.  We're asking the -- the witness is asked to speculate.  Of

17     course, my objection has lost its meaning, since we had an answer since

18     then.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have already heard

20     a good number of volunteers who came here, and we've understood that they

21     arrived by bus, they were transported by bus.  So if these individuals

22     are volunteers, why is it that they did not come as a unit, but they came

23     as a force, I mean, in a private car, in a passenger car?  It's quite

24     interesting.  Can you tell us whether you have any idea why this

25     happened?  You may not, especially since when you interviewed these four

Page 7109

 1     individuals, you were supposed to know that there are Serbian volunteers

 2     that may be coming from Serbia, and you may be aware, notably as a

 3     policeman, that these volunteers come in convoys and not individually.

 4     So why did you not ask the foursome about this, you know, to ask them who

 5     they were, exactly, and what they were doing, especially if one has a

 6     card from the French Foreign Legion?  You might really wonder why he's

 7     there and ask him.

 8             As far as I'm concerned, your answers are not quite satisfactory

 9     regarding a number of questions.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained this in my statement,

11     and I maintain what I said.  Mr. Ulemek had three ID cards; the regular

12     JNA ID card, an ID card issued by the French Foreign Legion, and an ID

13     card --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the last ID card.

15        A.   When I saw the military ID card, I thought he was really a member

16     of the military police, and I wanted to call the army and hand him over

17     to them.  But I talked to them on several occasions throughout the day,

18     and I kept gleaning new bits of information.  I don't know how they were

19     coming in, but these four came in, in a passenger vehicle, and that

20     passenger vehicle had been seized.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is Mr. Alic, you mentioned several times, when those four men

23     were arrested, that there was a lot of telephone calls asking for their

24     release; that people intervened from high up, making those phone calls.

25     Can you recall who made those phone calls and who asked for their

Page 7110

 1     release?  Was it somebody from Belgrade?

 2        A.   Well, I can't answer that, because my colleague took all those

 3     calls.

 4        Q.   Do you know that your colleague, Fadil Mujic, who actually had

 5     those calls, stated at the trial in Belgrade - I have the transcript of

 6     his evidence in its entirety, and so does the Prosecution - that Colonel

 7     Boskovic, the head of the Security Service in the JNA at the time,

 8     called, and he was promoted to lieutenant general quite soon afterwards?

 9        A.   I didn't that.

10        Q.   Fadil Mujic didn't tell you that?

11        A.   Well, no.

12        Q.   The Prosecution has Fadil Mujic's statement and can make use of

13     it.

14             When you left Zvornik, you described the circumstances, in part.

15     Apart from this function in the Sapna police station, did you hold any

16     other functions, such as, for instance, any political functions?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Were you a member of the War Presidency in the Zvornik

19     Municipality set up in Tuzla?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Well, it's a political function, is it not?

22        A.   Yes, but that was ex officio because of my job.

23        Q.   Please, a member of a War Presidency in a municipality is a

24     political function, is it not?

25        A.   The chief of the Public Security Station, ex officio, is a member

Page 7111

 1     of this Presidency.

 2        Q.   Under which law?

 3        A.   Well, under the law of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it was at the time.

 4        Q.   Is it so?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   The chief of the police from Sapna is the member -- is a member

 7     of the War Presidency of the Municipality of Zvornik?

 8        A.   Well, that's because the police station was relocated to the free

 9     territory in the Zvornik Municipality, and the Zvornik Municipality

10     itself had its War Presidency in the free territory.

11        Q.   So you were the chief of the police for the entire Municipality

12     of Zvornik, not only for Sapna?

13        A.   I'm saying that the chief of the police of the free part of the

14     Zvornik Municipality territory.

15        Q.   The free territory, that means the territory that you held in

16     your hands, not free for Serbs?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   So you were the chief of the police for the part of Zvornik

19     Municipality under the Muslim control, and you were responsible for

20     everything that was going on in that part; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, no.

22        Q.   So who, apart from you, was also responsible, as the police

23     chief?

24        A.   I was the police chief, and the civilian situations were within

25     my purview.  On the other hand, there was also the military, and since

Page 7112

 1     everybody there was in the military, I had very little work to do.

 2        Q.   Since you failed to mention this political function that you

 3     held, I have an excerpt from Mirzad Handzic's [phoen] book, entitled

 4     "Zvornik from the elections to the Dayton," where your role is confirmed.

 5     But since you now confirm that you held this role, there's no need for me

 6     to exhibit that.  Is it so?

 7        A.   Well, I didn't read this book and I have no reason to read it.

 8        Q.   Well, it is my role to read books.  A police officer is not

 9     expected to read books.  He's supposed to wield his truncheon, is he not?

10        A.   Well, you have time enough on your hands to read books.

11        Q.   The four men who were arrested, were they beaten in the course of

12     their arrest?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, avoid these

14     comments.  It's a waste of time.  The only question is whether he had a

15     political office or not.  You're saying, "No, you have the opposite

16     proof" because it seems that it's some kind of book called :  "After

17     Dayton ... " I don't know exactly what it's called because it's was not

18     recorded on the transcript, author Mizrad Hamdzic seemed to mention the

19     role played by this witness.  This is the interesting part, and only

20     this.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the witness recalled later

22     that he did hold this political function, so I wouldn't dwell on that.

23     The point is that this was a major political function that covered the

24     whole territory of the Zemun Municipality that was under the Muslim

25     control after the 1992 conflict.

Page 7113

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Zemun is far away.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Yes, Zvornik, not Zemun.  Zvornik is

 3     close.  So I wouldn't really dwell on that and waste any time, it's just

 4     a detail, not particularly important, but perhaps of interest.

 5        Q.   The four men, were they beaten when they were arrested, Mr. Alic?

 6        A.   As far as I know, they were not mistreated or beaten at the

 7     Public Security Station, but for sure they were at the roadblock.

 8        Q.   They were beaten there?

 9        A.   I suppose so, because that's what they told me.

10        Q.   Where were they taken from, from the roadblock, first?

11        A.   At the Public Security Station.

12        Q.   Not to the firefighters' place and then to the Public Security

13     Station?

14        A.   As far as I know, that was not the case.

15        Q.   Fine, we'll deal with that later.  Do you know that

16     Dusan Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, that he showed up at the places where the

17     Zvornik Muslim were detained, when he killed people and where he tortured

18     people, cut off their ears, when he had his way with them in a really

19     atrocious manner, that he was looking for men called "Boban" and "Zuna,"

20     some people by that name?

21        A.   I was told that but I was not able to identify who Boban and

22     Zuna, were.

23        Q.   When he was beaten in the course of his arrest, did you learn

24     that Boban and Zuna had beat him up the most brutally, and he learned

25     their names?

Page 7114

 1        A.   That's what he told me during the interview at the police

 2     station.

 3        Q.   So he told you that immediately.  Do you know in 1993, he was put

 4     on trial together with his brother, Vojin Vuckovic, at the district court

 5     in Sabac?

 6        A.   I heard that.

 7        Q.   And do you know that there is a final judgement sentencing

 8     Dusan Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, to 20 years in prison for the murder of

 9     seven Muslims, because it was not known at that time about the others; do

10     you know that?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   And do you know that his brother, Vojin Vuckovic, a.k.a., Zuco,

13     was charged only with false representation and illegal carrying of

14     weapons, and that he was convicted only for the latter; do you know that?

15        A.   I don't know that.

16        Q.   So no criminal offence could be proven during that trial against

17     him.  Do you know that Dusko Vuckovic, a.k.a., Repic, was subjected to

18     psychiatric observation on several occasions following his arrest and

19     during the trial in Sabac?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21        Q.   I have a series of documents here confirming that various

22     psychiatrists determined that he was a psychopath.  Do you have any

23     reasons to doubt that?

24             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I raise an objection.  The witness

25     is not a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and cannot have an informed view

Page 7115

 1     on this.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the witness has

 3     interviewed Dusan in the premises of the civilian police of Zvornik.

 4     Maybe he noted that he was a psychopath or not.  You don't really need to

 5     be an expert in psychiatry to know whether a person has psychiatric

 6     disorders.  It could be interesting, but I will ask the witness myself

 7     this question.

 8             Witness, according to the documents held by Mr. Seselj, it seems

 9     that expert say Dusan Vuckovic was a psychopath.  When you saw him, what

10     was he like?  Did you think that he had a mental disorder?  Did he look

11     like that?  What did you think of him?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't able to notice that he

13     suffered from a mental disorder or anything like that.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Is it obvious to you, Mr. Alic, that after all the beatings that

16     he received and in the beatings Zuna and Boban were prominent, that this

17     psychopathy of his went to such brutal limits as a result of that?  Now,

18     you're a policeman and you know from your own practice when somebody is

19     subjected to something like that, something clicks in his brain and then

20     he's ready to do something which he would never have thought of in normal

21     circumstances?

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  The

23     witness said that he noticed no mental disorder, and there was a

24     follow-up question to this.  I don't wish to repeat what was said.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Dutertre is quite

Page 7116

 1     right on this point.  When Dusan, Ulemek and the other two people were

 2     with you, did you beat them up, all four of them?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They weren't beaten during the

 5     period which they spent at the police station?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the police premises, the

 7     practice is never to resort to physical force, and that's prescribed by

 8     law.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness and I

10     agree on one point, that the beating took place before they entered the

11     police station, so there's no dispute about that.  They had been beaten,

12     and the witness confirmed that Repic had mentioned Zuno and Boban as the

13     people who had beaten him up.  So that's not being disputed.  And the

14     witness also said that he doesn't know who Boban and Zuno were, and these

15     were two men who were quite obviously were among the Muslims who had

16     beaten up the other four men.  And what happened there was -- or, rather,

17     I tried to elicit an answer from the witness, as a policeman with many

18     years of experience, whether he was able to conclude that what happened

19     was that somebody who looked quite normal and appeared to be normal to

20     him, about these terrible beatings that he was subjected to, became a

21     bloodthirsty criminal, whether he, as a policeman, could arrive at a

22     conclusion like that.  So if that isn't a proper question, I'll give up

23     on it and move on.  I'm not insisting upon it, but it's quite obvious to

24     me, and that's why I wanted to ask the witness, who is a policeman.  He's

25     a witness of justice here, so he could state his views in the matter on

Page 7117

 1     that basis.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you answer the question or

 3     not?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't answer that question, I

 5     just can't.  I'm not a professional in the area.  Everything would be

 6     pure speculation on my part.

 7             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Now, do you know that when the new indictment was raised against

 9     Dusan Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, together with Brano Grujic,

10     Branko Pavlovic, and then those people who had nicknames Zoks,

11     Major Toro, Lopov, and Bosanac; and I can't remember all their names, and

12     I seem to remember the nicknames better, but, anyway, he was indicted

13     together with them.  I assume you know about that?

14        A.   I really don't know things like that.  I don't want to talk about

15     them, because I really don't remember.

16        Q.   Just remember.  You were questioned in Tuzla or Sarajevo with

17     respect to the Belgrade trial?

18        A.   In Sarajevo, but they didn't mention the people you've just

19     mentioned.

20        Q.   Well, their names were mentioned there.  I'm going to tell you

21     their real names now.  I thought that you might have remembered the

22     nicknames.  I have the indictment raised against them here, so I'll read

23     them out.  Branko Grujic and Popovic, Branko.  You know them, don't you?

24     Then there was Dusko Vuckovic, that's this man Repic; Dragan Slavkovic,

25     his nickname was Major Toro, and you testified in the Dragan Slavkovic

Page 7118

 1     trial about that, isn't that right?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3        Q.   Well, you did testify in Belgrade about these people.  Don't you

 4     know who you testified about?

 5        A.   I testified in the Brano Grujic trial and the Ulemek trial.  Now,

 6     the people you just mentioned are people I don't know.

 7        Q.   You did not testify in the Ulemek trial.  Mr. Alic, collect your

 8     thoughts for a moment.  And in what circumstances did you testify in the

 9     Ulemek trial?

10        A.   The group of those four men.

11        Q.   Ulemek was never tried for Zvornik.  I can guarantee you that.

12        A.   I say that in my statement.  Now, whether he was taken to trial

13     or not, I'm not -- I don't know.

14        Q.   Mr. Alic, I have to remind you of the trial you testified in

15     Belgrade.  It was the Branko Grujic, Branko Popovic, aka, Marco Pavlovic,

16     Dusko Vukovic, nicknamed Repic; Dragan Slavkovic, known as Toro or Major

17     Toro; Ivan Korac, whose nicknamed Zoks; Sinica Filipovic [phoen],

18     nicknamed Lopov; and Dragutin Dragicevic, nicknamed Bosanac.  Those were

19     the trials in which you testified, and the Prosecutor can confirm that if

20     you don't remember, if you don't know.

21        A.   That is true, but I confirmed the case of the people that I knew

22     personally.

23        Q.   Just a moment, Mr. Alic.  Right now, we've established that you

24     were previously questioned in Sarajevo by the investigating judge in

25     Sarajevo pursuant to instructions from Belgrade; is that right?

Page 7119

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   When you were questioned during the investigation,

 3     Dusko Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic, was still alive, and later on he

 4     committed suicide, he hanged himself in prison.  So when you came to

 5     testify in Belgrade, you no longer saw him; isn't that right?

 6        A.   I heard that he had hanged himself in the central prison.

 7        Q.   And you almost recognised somebody else as being Repic; wasn't

 8     that how it was?

 9        A.   No, it wasn't.

10        Q.   All right, never mind.  It's not an essential point.  But,

11     anyway, I have here the indictment against these people and,

12     Mr. President, you asked for that and the Prosecution disclosed it to me.

13     I don't know whether they provided it to you.  04615792 is the page I

14     would like to have called up now.  04 -- I'll repeat the page number.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have asked to have the

16     indictment.  From what I understood, the indictment is being translated,

17     but we still don't have it and we're still waiting for it.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, from that lengthy

19     indictment, I'd just like to read out a brief excerpt from page 18, and

20     you can see that on the overhead projector, perhaps:

21             "If the Secretariat provides us with 04615792," that's the page

22     number.  You don't have it on e-court.

23             All right, take my copy, and we can just take a look at that part

24     of the indictment, and that's the number that the Prosecution gave me.

25             I thought the OTP was well equipped for e-court.  I thought I had

Page 7120

 1     a problem, but, you see, it's always their problem.  When it comes to the

 2     use of e-court, they seem to have a problem.

 3             So let's just have a look at this one paragraph now which is

 4     marked, highlighted.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are talking about the

 6     indictment in the trial in Belgrade; that's right?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's the current trial of

 8     the group accused for crimes in Zvornik, and I've already mentioned their

 9     names.  I don't want to repeat them.  They are names that appear in

10     different witness testimony of the victims, and their nicknames.  I'm

11     sure you'll remember their nicknames.  But I'm not interested in the

12     trial, per se, as such, with respect to this document, but what the

13     Prosecutor says in the indictment, and this is what he says in this

14     paragraph:

15             "The accused, Dusko Vuckovic, Dragan Slavkovic, Ivan Korac,

16     Sinisa Filipovic, and Dragutin Dragicevic were volunteers who were

17     included into a unit which was commanded by Witness Vojin Vuckovic,

18     nicknamed Zuco, which unit was called Igor Markovic and the Yellow Wasps

19     or "Zute Ose."  According to written documentation which agrees on all

20     points and is in conformity with the statement by Vojan Vuckovic, the

21     witness interviewed, it emerges indubitably that this unit was within the

22     composition of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian Municipality of

23     Zvornik and that it did not represent a paramilitary formation outside

24     the Command of the Staff of the Territorial Defence."

25             Do you see this definition of the unit there, Mr. Alic?

Page 7121

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   Do you think that this unit, on the basis of what we can read

 3     here, has anything to do with the Serbian Radical Party?

 4        A.   As far as I know, the Vuckovic brothers were from surrounding

 5     parts of Obrenovic, at Umka, and they could not have been in the

 6     Territorial Defence of Zvornik Municipality.  That's a different state

 7     altogether.

 8        Q.   Now, that other state was recognised by the Western powers, but

 9     the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina never recognised it or didn't

10     recognise it at the time; is that true?  It is -- I'm not challenging

11     that they went from Obrenovic to Zvornik, but this is what the Belgrade

12     prosecutor says at the Belgrade trial; they became part of the

13     Territorial Defence and established the Igor Markovic or "Zute Ose" unit

14     there.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.

17             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection.  Since an indictment

18     relies on a number of documents that are in the hands of the prosecutor

19     in Belgrade and it's on the basis of these documents that the prosecutor

20     says this, I don't see how the witness can give an opinion, since he

21     doesn't have the documents.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This has to do with relevance

23     and probative value.  As far as relevance is concerned, there is no

24     problem whatsoever.  The individuals whose names are mentioned in a

25     number of testimonies, this has been confirmed by the witness on trial in

Page 7122

 1     Belgrade, so it is relevant since it relates to facts that were -- or

 2     things that were committed in Zvornik.

 3             As far as probative value is concerned, once the Bench has all

 4     the documents at hand, the Trial Chamber will assess the probative value

 5     of this.  We have a document which stems from a legal entity, and all the

 6     people that were members of the Territorial Defence were connected to a

 7     paramilitary formation called the Yellow Wasps.  This is what we can say

 8     so far.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Seselj, and then we will have a break.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another document that I'd

11     like to show here.  Now, whether I'll have time, I don't know.  It's one

12     I received from the Prosecution.  The number of it is 00741342.

13             Can you bring it up on e-court?  The document has three pages.

14     I'd have to go through it, Judges, so do you want to take the break now

15     or would it be better to do so straight away?  It's an important

16     document, and I'd like to go through it in its entirety, so when?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The best would be to deal with

18     this after the break, and the Registry, in the meantime, can call it up

19     on the screen.

20             It's two minutes past 12, and we shall resume in 20 minutes'

21     time, and we will have an hour left after that, since we finish at

22     quarter past 1.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Registrar has

Page 7123

 1     told me that you have one hour and 22 minutes left, which means that we

 2     will not finish today, unfortunately.  Witness, you will have to come

 3     back tomorrow morning, unless Mr. Seselj finishes before his time.  I

 4     don't know.

 5             Mr. Seselj, you have one hour and 22 minutes left.  The Registrar

 6     has told me that the document you wish to display cannot be displayed,

 7     which explains why it's not on the screen.

 8             Mr. Prosecutor.

 9             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As far as this concerned is

10     document, I must tell you that the Prosecution has received no

11     information prior to Mr. Seselj's cross-examination, and I would like to

12     object to this practice.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, normally speaking,

14     as part of the cross-examination, the list of documents to be shown

15     should be disclosed before the cross-examination.  This should not happen

16     halfway.  I know you come up against a whole series of technical

17     problems.  Let us know about these problems and then we'll have a better

18     understanding of this and why it is that you cannot meet this

19     expectation, i.e., to provide the documents before the commencement of

20     the cross-examination.

21             I'll give you the floor back now.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think you and your

23     colleagues are conscious of the fact that just prior to the testimony of

24     a Prosecution witness, I prepare myself for the cross-examination.

25     That's all the possibility I have.  I have been inundated by the

Page 7124

 1     Prosecution with vast quantities of documents, and I'm not complaining,

 2     but to look through them takes time.  And I need to make a selection, of

 3     course, of those I can use.

 4             Now, the Prosecution sent me, as I said, heaps of material, heaps

 5     of documents, with no order in them, documents obtaining to all sorts of

 6     matters, so every time I have to leaf through many thousands of pages to

 7     find something that I can use with each individual witness.

 8             And you might have noticed that I seem a bit tired today because

 9     I just had two nights' sleep last night.  I'm not complaining, but I

10     don't expect the impossible of me.  I don't have 15 associates like the

11     Prosecution to do my work for me.  If I had a secretary in the cell, then

12     I could say such-and-such.  Everything would be different then, but I

13     haven't got that opportunity.

14             Now, the warden won't let me employ a secretary, and my wife

15     looked at me askance, too, when I happened to mention the possibility of

16     this to her.  So what can I do?  I do the best that I can.

17             Now, the fact that the Prosecutor is complaining, what can I do,

18     how can I help him?  He should have had all this in e-court.  When I say

19     the number, he should just press the button and it should pop up before

20     him.  So why are they not prepared for that.

21             They announced the advent of e-court many years ago, so I can't

22     help them in that regard, I'm afraid.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have this document

25     put to the witness so we can go through the document together.  It's an

Page 7125

 1     interesting one because it dates back to 1992.

 2             Ah, you don't even have it.  You have to use my copy.  Oh dear,

 3     oh dear.  Very well.

 4             It's a document of the Serbian Security Service or rather the

 5     Republika Srpska, or, rather, the Security Services of Republika Srpska,

 6     signed by Dragoljub Andan, dating back to 1992.  We'll see the date and

 7     the heading on page 1.  It's the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     and the Ministry of Interior, Centre of Security Services, Bijeljina,

 9     that's what it says at the top, and the date is the 20th of July, 1992.

10     The title of the document is:  "Information about the security situation

11     in the territory of the Serb Municipality of Zvornik."  And now I'd like

12     to go through the document slowly and to hear the witness's views on each

13     of the paragraphs.

14             In paragraph 1, the situation on the fronts is explained, where

15     the frontline towards Kalesija-Sapna is, and so on, and it says that

16     there are actions on the part of a certain number of paramilitary

17     formations which have still not been placed under the united command of

18     the Army of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19        Q.   Have you seen that, Mr. Alic?  It's the second part of the first

20     paragraph.  So that is the assessment made by the Serbian Security

21     Service.  And in the next paragraph, they go on to name the paramilitary

22     units and say, according to available information that the service has,

23     in the territory of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, three

24     paramilitary units work in organised fashion; the unit under the command

25     of a certain person called Zuca, the unit under the command of a certain

Page 7126

 1     man called Pivarski, and the unit under the command of a certain person

 2     called Niski.

 3             Have you heard of those three paramilitary units, as they call

 4     them, Mr. Alic?  Did those names crop up in the witness and victims'

 5     testimony when they came from Zvornik to the territory under your

 6     control?

 7        A.   Yes, they did appear.

 8        Q.   Now let's look at the next paragraph, and this is what it says:

 9             "The most numerous and best-armed and organised is the unit under

10     the command of the said person called Zuca.  Allegedly, this is an

11     individual who used to belong to the Serbian Radical Party or who

12     belonged to the Serbian Radical Party, and because of inter-party

13     conflicts, was excluded from the membership of the said party."

14             Now, why is this important?  This is a document which dates back

15     to 1992, July 1992, in fact, where this observation is made, and we've

16     had information so far that in 1991, he was excluded or, as he said, he's

17     left the Serbian Radical Party, but the facts coincide.  His unit numbers

18     about 100 men who are armed with infantry weapons and dispose of a

19     certain number of heavy machine-guns and three anti-aircraft guns built

20     into the trucks.  The unit is located at Caparde, where it has been

21     accommodated in makeshift buildings.  Of the total number of men, 80 of

22     them come from the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, whereas the rest are

23     from the territory of the Republic of Serbia, mostly persons prone to

24     criminal actions."

25             So here it says 80 from Zvornik and just 20 from Serbia.

Page 7127

 1             Let's continue.  I don't know why my screen is being switched off

 2     and I lose the document.  I have it now.  I seemed to have pressed the

 3     wrong button.

 4             Anyway, it says:

 5             "In addition to Zuca, in the said unit, Rade Tanackovic is

 6     prominent."

 7             Turn over to the next page, please, the top of it.  He's from

 8     Zvornik:

 9             " ...  and Zuca's brother, nicknamed Repic, and" and then there's

10     a mistake there, it says Repic, and then in brackets "This is a

11     pathological case."

12             So in 1992, they have described Repic as being a pathological

13     case.  The other two units have been accommodated in the outside area of

14     Zvornik Municipality and come into town from time to time with infantry

15     weapons, and they number about 20 people.  Apart from criminal acts, such

16     as the theft of cars, setting up their own check-points, stealing

17     technical goods and furniture from houses left void, which they sell on

18     the territory of Serbia.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we have an

20     objection.

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'd like to know

22     where the question lies.  If the question is right at the end, it can

23     only be a compound question.  I would like to know when the question

24     comes, because we are reading out an entire document.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I think you're

Page 7128

 1     laying -- please lay the foundations to your questions.  I assume there's

 2     going to be a question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to have a

 4     foundation for each and every question.  Without those papers, I cannot

 5     do anything.  I don't know what was happening.  I used these as sort of

 6     landmarks.  And the Prosecutor is really impatient.  He interrupted me at

 7     the very moment when I was about to ask my question, and we waste time.

 8        Q.   Mr. Alic, do you know these things that are listed here in this

 9     document; that the Serbian Security Service, at the Bijeljina centre, had

10     problems with three paramilitary units that are described in this manner?

11        A.   I don't know about that.  This is the first time that I see this

12     document, and this is the first time I hear about this.

13        Q.   And have you heard that the members of the Yellow Wasps were

14     arrested in the course of July in Zvornik and were taken to prison in

15     Bijeljina?

16        A.   I don't know that.

17        Q.   Fair enough.  Let us move on.

18             Those units, in particular the one that is commanded by Zuca,

19     intensified its activities aimed at the legal authorities in the Serbian

20     municipality of Zvornik.  And I don't want to read the whole paragraph,

21     prompting the Prosecutor to jump to his feet.  Let me now ask a question.

22             Do you know that they mistreated Serb civilian authorities in

23     Zvornik after the majority of Muslims had already moved out of Zvornik?

24        A.   I do know that.

25        Q.   Do you know that this was also said at the Belgrade trial, that

Page 7129

 1     they would walk into the sessions of the Zvornik Presidency with

 2     machine-guns?

 3        A.   I don't know details, but I do know that the official authorities

 4     there have problems with them.

 5        Q.   Do you know that at one point, they caught Branko Grujic, the

 6     first accused in the Belgrade trial, tied him up, and paraded him around?

 7        A.   I don't know that.

 8        Q.   Well, the Muslim side would have laughed heartily had you heard

 9     that, wouldn't you?  But at any rate, the document goes on to say the

10     service has information about Zuca's intentions to use armed force and

11     violence to influence the authorities, to effect certain changes in the

12     personnel policies, so that Zuca's people would be appointed to

13     appropriate functions and posts in the municipality.  One of the aspects

14     of the pressure is taking control over the check-points in the town, and

15     earlier cases of arrest of a certain number of members of the government

16     in May of this year.  In addition to the above, members of this formation

17     ensure that they could legalize their criminal activities."

18             Do you know that?

19        A.   No, I don't.

20        Q.   And do you know that a huge mass of Serb refugees from Tuzla

21     simply overflowed Zvornik after the armed conflict, or the attack, as you

22     term it, after the Muslims left or withdrew from Zvornik?  Do you know

23     that there was a huge influx of Serb refugees from Tuzla to this area?

24        A.   Yes, I do know that.

25        Q.   And do you know that they moved into Muslim houses?

Page 7130

 1        A.   I do know that.

 2        Q.   And do you know, on the other hand, that various gangs in Zvornik

 3     were trying to loot those very houses before the arrival of the refugees

 4     and before the refugees move in?

 5        A.   That's possible.

 6        Q.   Do you know that they drove a lot of the white goods,

 7     refrigerators, ovens, even construction material, across the Drina River?

 8        A.   Yes, I do know that.

 9        Q.   When the JNA -- do you know when the JNA column was attacked in

10     Tuzla; do you recall?

11        A.   The 15th of May, 1992.

12        Q.   About 200 JNA soldiers were killed on that occasion?

13        A.   I don't know the exact figure because I was not in that area.

14        Q.   And this murder of over 200 soldiers, JNA soldiers in Tuzla, and

15     the huge influx of Serb refugees from Tuzla, could it have intensified

16     the anti-Muslim animosity amongst Serbs in Zvornik?

17        A.   Yes, it could have done so.

18        Q.   You know that hatred feeds on itself?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Something happens on the Serb side, the Muslims' hatred

21     increases, and then something happens on the Muslim side and then the

22     Serbs' hatred increases, and it's a vicious circle with no end?

23        A.   Yes, that's how it is.

24        Q.   Okay, let us move on.

25             Through its operational work, the service has obtained unverified

Page 7131

 1     information, as it is indicated here, that Zuco has contacted members of

 2     the Green Berets from Kalesija in order to hand over -- surrender the

 3     frontline at Caparde, thereby cutting off the only communication route

 4     with Romanija and to create an unimpeded -- to create conditions for the

 5     Serbian municipality of Zvornik to be taken over?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Dutertre.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't know whether Mr. Seselj is

 8     quoting something or whether these are his own words, when he talks about

 9     these services and what relates to operations.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am moving through the

11     document.  I indicated that, and the witness understands that's what I'm

12     doing.

13        Q.   Is that right, Mr. Alic?  Well, you understand everything and the

14     Prosecutor doesn't understand a thing.

15             Well, the last sentence in this paragraph, and then I'm going to

16     ask you the question.  For this concession, foreign currency was offered

17     to the amount of 350.000 German marks on the side -- on the part of the

18     Green Berets, while Zuca requested 500.000 German marks.  Are you aware

19     of this kind of talks between the Green Berets and Zuca?

20        A.   No, this is the first I've heard of it.

21        Q.   Well, Zuco will be thankful to you denying this, denying that you

22     know of this.  I don't know whether this actually happened or not, and

23     the service itself indicates that this is unverified information, but I

24     wanted to hear your opinion because it is quite important.  Then I move

25     on.

Page 7132

 1             For an overall insight into this paramilitary unit and its

 2     possible influence on the very unfavorable development of the security

 3     situation in this area, it is important to bear in mind the connection

 4     between Zuco and Vidovic, Milje [phoen], killed on the 17th of July,

 5     1992, in Mali Zvornik in unclear circumstances."

 6             Do you know about this man, Milje Vidovic?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   And then it goes on to say in the text:

 9             " ...  and we had operational intelligence that he was supposed

10     to get in touch with the former JNA officer, Sasha Sedinovc [phoen], who

11     in his statement," turn over to the next page:  "Through the organs of

12     the Serb army admitted that earlier this year he had been hired by the

13     Dutch police and that it was his task to get in touch with this man,

14     Vidovic, who allegedly has some codes and some instructions for further

15     work.  It is also interesting to note that when Vidovic was killed, a

16     Dictaphone was found -- a tape-recorder was found in his apartment with a

17     tape containing the recording from the meeting of the Staff of the

18     Territorial Defence of the Serbian Army, BiH, in Zvornik."

19             Do you know that?

20        A.   I don't.

21        Q.   And do you know that various foreign intelligence services were

22     operating in that area?  Did you have them on your side of the frontline?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is and if you had them, then there had to be some operating on

25     the Serb side?

Page 7133

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.

 2        Q.   And would it be possible, if it were in their interests, for them

 3     to stoke the flames between Serbs and Muslims if it were in their

 4     interests to have the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina to escalate?

 5        A.   I don't know what their intentions were.

 6        Q.   Let us see what the conclusions were in this document.  It

 7     transpires from everything that was transpired above that Zuco is

 8     carrying out his criminal activities for larger sums of money, with the

 9     assistance of some members of the government of the Serbian municipality

10     of Zvornik.

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.  The

12     witness is asked to speculate.  He answered that he didn't know the

13     intent, but the question was not appropriate.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj is asking

15     you whether you knew whether the security services, be it of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina or of Serbia, had ties with foreign services, and you

17     said, "Yes."  So I thought I understood that your answer dealt with the

18     two sides.  So when you answered, "Yes," to this question, is this

19     speculation or do you have specific information on this?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, Mr. President, specify, I

21     did not say that those foreign intelligence services were cooperating

22     either with the Muslim or the Serb intelligence services.  I said they

23     were just operating in the area.  I didn't say that they were cooperating

24     with anyone.  And the witness confirmed that the operation of those

25     services was felt on the Muslim side.  We didn't go into detail because I

Page 7134

 1     didn't -- I don't know the details myself.  I don't want to confuse the

 2     witness.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Without talking

 4     about cooperation, to your knowledge, did foreign intelligence services

 5     operate in this area?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the answer is "yes."  They

 7     were operating in many ways through humanitarian organisations, various

 8     representative offices, but I do think they were operating there.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me finish this document, with

11     your permission, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Everything that is presented above indicates that Zuco performs

13     his criminal activities exclusively for large sums of money, with the

14     assistance of some members of the government of the Serbian municipality

15     of Zvornik," and now this is my comment:  So he has assistance from these

16     people, through whom he's trying to conceal his activities:

17             "In this relation, it is to be expected that he might, in light

18     of his pretensions and aspirations, to carry out armed pressure on the

19     government in order to achieve a full takeover.  It is our assessment

20     that the current activity of those paramilitary units might lead to huge

21     consequences for the security of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, and

22     in this -- for the purpose of preventing this and to making it

23     impossible, we propose that a special unit of the Republika Srpska -- of

24     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP be sent there in the area

25     of Zvornik."

Page 7135

 1             So do you know whether, after this date, and I forgot the

 2     date - it's on page 1 - that there was a large-scale intervention by the

 3     special police of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it was

 4     styled then, and that members of these paramilitary formations were

 5     actually all arrested; you know that?  You were there.  You were in

 6     range, in Sapna.

 7        A.   I don't know that.

 8        Q.   But did you not observe some large-scale movements of special

 9     units at that time?

10        A.   Well, I was not concerned with those activities.

11        Q.   Well, if you don't know that, I can't now force you into making a

12     statement.

13             Now I am about to spring a surprise on you, on the Prosecution --

14     well, rather, it is not a surprise for the Prosecution and for the Trial

15     Chamber because they've already received it during the first break.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the surprise, there are

17     two things I'd like to know, in terms of this document which comes from

18     the Prosecution, because it's the Prosecution that disclosed it to the

19     Defence.  There are two important items here.

20             First, I note here that in this document, can comes from the

21     Republika Srpska, Bijeljina, July 20, 1992, people from Zuce,

22     representing a group of 100 people, of which 80 come from Zvornik and 20

23     from Serbia.  So there's a majority of locals.  Since you interviewed

24     Zuco, who is Repic's brother, could you tell us whether he addressed this

25     with you, yes or no?

Page 7136

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not about that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you missed a piece

 3     of information.  This unit, Ivo Markovic, the Yellow Wasps, was set up in

 4     Zuce, became its commander on the 27th of April after Kuljagrad [phoen]

 5     fell.  This is when the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and the

 6     special unit of Zene [phoen] from Pancevo and Arkan's units a withdrew

 7     from Zvornik.  That was when this unit was set up and that's when Zuco

 8     was appointed commander.  Up until that time, he did not have any command

 9     responsibility there.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

11             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The witness has just given

12     evidence, and I object to this.  However, in the very clever way

13     Mr. Seselj read verbatim, the so-called testimony of a person, without

14     calling this person, without respecting any of the rules, 92 ter, 92 bis,

15     or anything, and I object to this kind of a practice.

16             The OTP is not able to cross-examine this person and to assess

17     the relevance and the reliability of what is mentioned in this document.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your objection is now noted on

19     the transcript.

20             The second thing, sir:  This Zuco, according to this document, it

21     seems that Zuco is undergoing criminal activities, motivated mainly by

22     greed and nothing else, nothing that would have to do with politics, and

23     the best proof that we have in this document is the paragraph where he in

24     contact with the Green Berets.  So unless I'm wrong, the Green Berets

25     were an organisation that was internal to Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was a

Page 7137

 1     group of people who wanted to fight for Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Weren't

 2     they?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is so.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Therefore, this

 5     Zuco is in contact with the Green Berets, with the Muslim side, and it

 6     seems that he had contacts for many reasons.  There seems to be no

 7     politics involved here.

 8             What do you have to say to this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first that I hear about

10     this possibility, and I can't really comment on it.  There's no need for

11     me.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the first time that you

13     hear this?  Very well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to respond to

15     the objection made by the Prosecution.

16             The document that we went through with the witness is not a

17     statement.  It is an official police document from the Centre of Security

18     Services in Bijeljina, signed by the chief of the Security Services

19     Centre, Dragan Andan.  Dragan Andan is not a witness that I intend to

20     call.  I might put him on the list if I need him.  But this is an

21     official document disclosed to me by the Prosecution God knows

22     when - several years ago - but it bears the number that was assigned to

23     it by the Prosecution.  It is their exhibit, as they call it.  It's not

24     mine.  I am using it in the cross-examination legitimately.  How can I

25     use it, if not in the cross-examination?  It's the only way in which

Page 7138

 1     I can do it.  I cannot just put it in the mail and send it to you.  I

 2     have to find a witness through which I can deal with it, because I myself

 3     don't know whether all this is true.  I just know that it is written in

 4     this document, and I don't know if it's true or not.

 5             The only thing I know, is that this sentence that in 1991, Zuco

 6     was a member, and that sometime in September or October, he was no longer

 7     a member, it was his version of events that he left, and our version of

 8     events is that he was expelled.  And I don't know the details, because he

 9     was not a major figure in our ranks.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What you have just

11     said is now on the transcript.  However, when I said that it was a

12     document from -- that came from the Prosecution, I think I said

13     "everything."

14             One last item, Witness.  At the very beginning of this text, in

15     the first paragraph -- this is a document that you do not know, but since

16     you were there, maybe you could shed some light on this.

17             This document seems to say that these paramilitary formations

18     are -- there are three of them, and that these three paramilitary

19     formations are not under the command of Republika Srpska.  This is

20     written, black on white, here in this document from the very onset, and

21     this might have consequences for us, for the Bench.

22             You were involved.  You were on the ground.  You were there.  You

23     had an official post in the War Presidency, and you had functions in the

24     different police stations.  So according to you, these kind of

25     paramilitary formations, and here three are mentioned -- let's talk about

Page 7139

 1     the Yellow Wasps, for example.  According to you, were these people

 2     alongside and autonomous or were they under command, the Command of the

 3     Army of Republika Srpska?  What is your opinion on this?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't say with any

 5     precision.  All I can do is to speak about the period until the 8th of

 6     April, 1992, and everything happened after the 8th of April, 1992, all

 7     that, when we were expelled from Zvornik and when we were outside those

 8     events.  So what went on in the town of Zvornik, I really can't testify

 9     about that because I don't know.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have the surprise now.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your

12     attention, Mr. President, and it's something the Prosecution knows about,

13     and it is this:  That this unit was formed as the territorial Defence

14     unit of Zvornik on the 27th of April, and that's not in dispute.  That

15     was found to be so during the indictment in Belgrade and so on.  But it

16     was set up as a Territorial Defence unit, but it went off on its own

17     afterwards and there was no stronger force until the special police

18     forces arrived to overcome it as being a renegade.

19             Now, the surprise:  I received a statement from Vojin Vuckovic

20     today, nicknamed Zuca.  I have provided photocopies for the Trial Chamber

21     and for the Prosecutor.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  The Prosecutor.

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, once again.  The

24     accused is testifying on all this, once again, in a repetitive fashion.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we've taken due note of

Page 7140

 1     this.  But this Vojin, Mr. Seselj, please go ahead.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be placed on the overhead

 3     projector so that Mr. Alic can follow.  This is a statement that has been

 4     authenticated or certified in the 4th District Court in Belgrade

 5     yesterday.  I was faxed it this morning.  The date is the 20th of May up

 6     there at the top, and he first of all provides all his personal data and

 7     says that watching your testimony last week, he was astounded by the

 8     lies.  Those were his words.  Don't consider yourselves -- don't think

 9     this comes from me.  I had some observations to make with respect to

10     false testimony, but you did tell some truth as well.  Anyway, he says he

11     felt the need to present the facts about events that he took part in

12     personally --

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please.  Can we

14     please look at what has been authenticated, certified, according to you?

15     Is it the signature, the statement?  You know that I was having problems

16     with this, so please be very accurate, and the transcript needs to be

17     accurate.  It seems that it's only the signature once again.

18             Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Madam Judge, on page 4 you

20     have the certification, and on page 3 you have the signature and the

21     stamp.  Actually, they were two pieces of paper, because obviously on

22     page 4 is the certification.  You have the photocopy of that here.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have a PhD in

24     Law.  Could you tell me whether, in your legal system -- I'm not asking

25     you to testify, but to answer a legal question.  You are both counsel and

Page 7141

 1     accused here, since you are self-represented.  If you had counsel, I

 2     would ask the question to your counsel.  You have no counsel, so I'll put

 3     the question to you.

 4             In your own legal system, somebody is making a statement either

 5     in typewritten form or handwritten form, and signs, if this certificate

 6     is false, is there -- is it an offence in your -- is it an offence

 7     according to your legal system, that you could be charged -- that this

 8     person could be charged with --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and criminal proceedings can

10     be taken against me if there's a false authentication, false

11     certification.  And your service will be able to check this out in the

12     4th District Court in Belgrade during the afternoon.  The Prosecutor

13     could have actually done that during the second break if he was provided

14     with this document in the first break.  The OTP could have checked this

15     out and could have been sent the same document.

16             Now, as far as the certification is concerned, only the signature

17     is certified, not the truthfulness of what is stated.  The clerk of the

18     court has authenticated the fact that it is Vojin Vuckovic who signed it,

19     but he's not authenticating the truth.  Who knows where the truth lies?

20     But I am in search of the truth, and I'm more successful along that path

21     than the Prosecutor is, as you've been able to convince yourselves of.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you.

23             Mr. Prosecutor.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, just for clarification, does this

25     authentication require Mr. Vuckovic to be present in the court before the

Page 7142

 1     authentication was given?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, each individual who

 3     provides me with a statement agrees that he will be a Defence witness,

 4     and in the last sentence on page 3, Vojin Vuckovic states as follows:

 5             "I give this statement voluntarily and at my own request, and

 6     agree that Professor, Dr. Vojislav Seselj can use it before The Hague

 7     Tribunal.  I should like to emphasize that I am ready to appear in

 8     The Hague exclusively as a Defence witness called by

 9     Professor Dr. Vojislav Seselj."

10             Whereas the Prosecutor was not going to call him as a Prosecution

11     witness, so I don't suppose you're going to seize him from me, are you?

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you're not

13     answering my fellow Judge's question.  He asked you whether, in your

14     legal system, the person asking for authentication of a document and a

15     signature must be present when, in court, a stamp is set on the document,

16     that is recorded, the person -- must the person be present when this

17     person is asking for a stamp to be affixed on the document?

18             By definition, the agent who's going to stamp the document is

19     supposed to check that the person in front of him has exactly the same

20     signature as the one that is on the document.  This is the question you

21     were asked.

22             Could you please answer?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, he must be present, absolutely

24     so.  Otherwise, a clerk, certifying somebody's signature without his

25     presence and without the identification card of the person signing, would

Page 7143

 1     be in prison.  Not only does he certify the signature, but the person has

 2     to sign in front of the court official.  He can't bring in a signed copy,

 3     but he has to sign in front of the court clerk, and there must be two or

 4     three copies, which some are stored in the archives, and everybody can

 5     check whether that is the case.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The reason I'm asking, Mr. Seselj, is that in

 7     both documents that you have put to us, the authentication has been

 8     provided on a separate sheet of paper.  It would have been natural to put

 9     the authentication directly on the page where the signature occurred.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, look, this statement

11     covered two pages, quite obviously, and so what is authenticated is the

12     last page of the second -- the last page of the statement, the second

13     page.  But when you send it by fax, as they are actually four pages on

14     two pieces of paper, then we receive four pages.  I think that's clear,

15     but the Prosecution can check that out in Belgrade.  They can send a fax

16     telling them what it was that Vojin Vuckovic signed and had authenticated

17     at the 4th District Court in Belgrade yesterday.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

19             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exactly what my

20     problem is, but the OTP cannot check as quickly as Mr. Seselj says we

21     could.  And even so, this does not explain why this certification -- why

22     this stamp is not affixed right next to the signature of Vuckovic.  The

23     third page is blank, for the most part, and the certification could very

24     well have been affixed there.  So I still have questions pending

25     regarding this.

Page 7144

 1             Secondly, I'd like to know under which Rule Mr. Seselj would like

 2     to use this statement with, 92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater?  Does he want to

 3     read it extensively, like he did with the previous document?  And I

 4     believe that if, once again, we have a full reading of the entire

 5     statement, I would like to add that the OTP cannot cross-examine this

 6     witness, and therefore this witness should be called during the Defence

 7     case.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is noted on

 9     the transcript now.

10             We have ten minutes left.  Please continue, Mr. Seselj, and

11     finish.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not my

13     intention to offer you up any document under 92 bis, ter, quater, or

14     whatever, because I'm categorically opposed to the application of those

15     Rules in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence in this trial.  I'm

16     absolutely against that, so if I'm against something, I can't allow

17     myself to do something that I do not allow the Prosecutor to do.

18             But since this is rather lengthy, I'd like to go back to a

19     document that was photocopied during the break.  This will last ten

20     minutes, and then tomorrow we can go back, in the time we have, to

21     Vojin Vuckovic's statement, and given enough time for the Prosecutor to

22     check this out in Belgrade to see if it's authentic or not, if you agree,

23     because we're not going to get through everything and I don't want to

24     leave this document up in the air because I have quite a few questions

25     relating to it.

Page 7145

 1             May I now have the document of the Centre for Research into the

 2     Crimes Against the Serbian Population, sent by Vojan Ivanisevic [phoen],

 3     and you can see that on page 1, and the attached documents sent to my

 4     Defence team and it has to do with Asim Alic and the information that

 5     they have on Asim Alic from Zvornik.

 6             So we can move on to page 2, and in paragraph 1 there, it says

 7     the following -- is it on the overhead projector?  This is the

 8     information that they have on you, Mr. Alic, so you can give me your

 9     views and tell me whether it's correct or not:

10             "He came to Zvornik from Belgrade in 1991, and he was appointed

11     assistant commander of the police station straight away.  According to

12     many indications, he had links in Belgrade with the representatives of

13     the Party of Democratic Action, who, just like Naser Oric, and not only

14     the two of them, persuaded him to go to Bosnia and place himself at the

15     disposal of the Muslim leadership.  In Zvornik and the surrounding

16     villages, he trained members of the Green Berets or, rather, the

17     Patriotic League.  In that work, he closely cooperated with Alan Karlovic

18     [phoen] from Bratunac," and in brackets it says "I'd like to remind you

19     that the Muslims through the SDA sent their young men for training in

20     Croatia in their masses.  The instruction for sending candidates to the

21     training center, the MUP of the Republic of Croatia with the signature of

22     Hasan Cengic we have already sent to your team.  He was known for his

23     fundamental -- extreme fundamentalism and hostility towards his

24     colleagues who were Serbs."

25             Is that right, Mr. Alic.

Page 7146

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thanks for that brief answer, just a yes or no.  We

 3     can move on.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, what's the

 5     problem?

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  To the extent

 7     that excerpts are read verbatim, I believe that it would also be good to

 8     read the cover page of this document, because it explains how Mr. Seselj

 9     obtained this document, and it explains the relationship between the

10     author of this document and Mr. Seselj.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Seselj, for each and

12     everyone to understand this document and to know exactly what probative

13     value is to be granted to this document, I assume that this document was

14     sent to you at your request.  Could you tell us exactly how you obtained

15     this document?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I obtained this document at the

17     request of my legal advisers.  I can read it out.  I hope that you won't

18     deduct it from my time, because this is something at the Prosecution

19     request.  But it says in the attached letter:

20             "We enclose documents, the documents that you requested about the

21     Muslim policeman Asim Alic from Zvornik."

22             So we did request it:

23             "In our documents, the named person was recorded as one of the

24     people responsible for the persecution and suffering of Serbs in that

25     municipality.  The documents of our institution is at your disposal for

Page 7147

 1     any matters related to assisting the Defence of respected

 2     Dr. Vojislav Seselj.  We wish you every success in this responsible and

 3     humane task."

 4             That is what Milivoj Ivanisevic says, who is the head of the

 5     centre for research into crimes committed against the Serb nation, and he

 6     is somebody who has published seven or eight books on that same topic,

 7     and some of those books are ones that I'm going to use here in court with

 8     other witnesses.  So obviously he is well disposed towards my Defence.

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I must

10     absolutely repeat what I have said on many occasions about these

11     statements.

12             The issue of its probative value cannot be raised if the accused

13     is not asking for this document to be tendered into evidence.  If the

14     accused eventually asks for the document to be tendered into evidence,

15     then we must now solve, either now or when he will ask for this document

16     to be tendered, we must solve the problem of the reliability of this

17     document.  But I really do not see how any probative value can be granted

18     to this document if it's not tendered.

19             The only thing I will keep in mind are the answers given by the

20     witness in connection to questions that were put according to this

21     document, but this document has no value by itself.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In line of what has just

23     been said, I've already told you this, you are showing documents,

24     presenting documents, and not asking for these documents to be tendered.

25     And as my fellow Judge just said excellently, the Trial Chamber cannot

Page 7148

 1     take them into account, for -- the Trial Chamber can only use the

 2     witness's answer on the transcript to check the probative value of

 3     whatever, which is why I have asked you on a number of occasions to make

 4     sure that the important documents to your case are translated.  And once

 5     they are shown to the witness, they must be translated, and then you must

 6     ask for these documents to be tendered.  And once these documents are

 7     admitted, then these documents may benefit from probative value.

 8             I've said this over and over again.  It seems that you have

 9     another vision of things or another view on things.  And my fellow Judges

10     want to safeguard the rights of the Defence, you know, and we've alerted

11     you on this issue on many occasions.

12             You might have very interesting documents, very important

13     documents, but if you do not tender them and they are not admitted, the

14     Chamber will not even look at them.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you remember full

16     well that I collected together 160 documents, along with the wholehearted

17     assistance of Slavko Aleksic [phoen], and Vasil Vasilevic [phoen],

18     Vranislav Graviljevic Brne [phoen] whose alleged, and I insist on this

19     word, alleged crimes are ascribed to me, and from which we can see they

20     weren't volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party at all at that time.

21     Now, I put those documents to Mr. Theunens, the military expert, when you

22     categorically refused to admit them into evidence.

23             Now, after that, I'm not tendering any more documents.  I haven't

24     done so.  And why?  Because it is up to me to challenge the Prosecution

25     witness through my cross-examination, and in order to challenge him, I

Page 7149

 1     use various documents.  Now, you can treat his answers to my questions in

 2     any way you want.  I think that I have been successful in overthrowing

 3     this witness's testimony, at least in the part which relates to the

 4     indictment raised against me.  Now, how you're going to treat this later

 5     on is up to you.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we are going to

 7     finish now.  I understand your position.  You've told us already.

 8             Once, the Trial Chamber did not admit some documents.  I was

 9     against this, because I felt that these were reliable and that the

10     probative value could be assessed afterwards.  This was ruled by the

11     Trial Chamber.  But other documents can be shown, and so long as they

12     remain reliable and relevant, then there might be grounds for admitting

13     these.  My colleagues and I might refuse to admit them, but it's not

14     because we took this stance once that this will be the case forever.

15             So if a document is reliable, if a document is relevant, then it

16     may have a probative value, and in that case there's no reason to dismiss

17     it.

18             Let me finish.  This last document, which seems to stem from an

19     association or organisation which should list those crimes committed

20     against the Serbs, I believe that this organisation is very similar to

21     the one headed by Mrs. Natasha Kandic.  If this body has conducted work,

22     if this is a recognised body, then there is certainly a modicum of

23     reliability.  There would be no reason, then, to dismiss this document.

24     This is what I wish to tell you.  It's not because in a particular case

25     some documents were rejected, that this is applied at all times.

Page 7150

 1             Let me also draw your attention to the fact that you are putting

 2     arguments forward which may carry some weight in your Defence, but these

 3     documents need to be part of the proceedings, unfortunately.  Otherwise,

 4     we will not be able to do anything about them.

 5             It is now time to stop, because it is a quarter past 1.00.

 6             I would ask the Registrar to tell me tomorrow morning how much

 7     time you have left.  Normally speaking, we should finish this witness's

 8     testimony.

 9             Witness, I am sorry, but in light of all the procedural issues

10     that have been raised, you are still here today, and you will be asked to

11     come back tomorrow morning at 8.30.  But then it will be finished,

12     because we have another witness after you.  Is this a problem for you?

13     Can you come tomorrow morning?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.  I will be here.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we shall meet again tomorrow

16     morning at 8.30.  Thank you.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

19                           May, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.