Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8364

 1                           Wednesday, 18 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.33 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Madam Registrar,

 6     please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10     Madam Registrar.

11             Today, we are Wednesday, the 18th of June, 2008.  I would like to

12     greet the representatives of the Prosecution.  I would also like to greet

13     Mr. Seselj, as well as all the other people who are helping us in this

14     hearing.

15             Mr. Seselj has 25 minutes for the cross-examination.  We are

16     going to now have the witness brought in.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before the witness

18     comes in, I have to tell you that what I expect is a two-minute video

19     clip.  It should arrive by e-mail.  There seemed to be some problems in

20     having it sent, but it is still being attempted.

21             Could the Registry please inform me when it arrives, and could

22     you tell me at the end, when there is only three minutes left.  I would

23     like to show a photograph and that two-minute video clip, because I think

24     that my time will be just right.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 8365

 1             Yes, Mr. Dutertre.

 2             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  In fact, this

 3     raises an issue.

 4             I received only this morning a photograph of a car.  You

 5     certainly have this picture as well.  The first element that poses a

 6     problem is that this document was disclosed to us while the

 7     cross-examination had already began, and the car has to do with a witness

 8     that testified a long time ago.  So Mr. Seselj had ample time to collect

 9     all these documents.  And on this photograph, we don't see a license

10     plate.  We also don't know to whom this car belonged.  We also do not

11     know when the picture was taken.  We have absolutely no element

12     whatsoever as to why this document would be presented.  We also don't

13     know what is the reliability of this document and to whom the car

14     belonged.  I imagine that it's about Mr. Vaske, but that's something I

15     don't know.

16             Now, all of a sudden we are told that a video is going to be

17     shown.  The Prosecution never saw this video, did not have time to look

18     at it, so basically we are getting documents as the case is going on

19     rather than presenting us all these elements before the beginning of the

20     cross-examination.

21             I understand that the accused is representing himself and he is

22     finding elements or proof that he would like to present, but it would be

23     much more useful if we could get all these documents ahead of time.  And

24     so I object to the use of the photograph as well as the video that was

25     announced.

Page 8366

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, would you like to

 2     answer?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             On the one hand, the objection of counsel for the Prosecution is

 5     senseless, and, on the other hand, it's premature.  I just hinted at this

 6     possibility to the Trial Chamber, that something should arrive by e-mail,

 7     and I asked that I be cautioned when there is only three minutes left.

 8     And then when I try to present this, that would be the right time for the

 9     Prosecutor to intervene with a possible objection; not now, just for

10     having received a photograph.

11             Why did I not request that photograph earlier on?  I could not

12     have dreamed of the Prosecutor finding a witness who's going to deny that

13     there was a helmet next to this plastic skull.  All of Ilijas, Vogosca,

14     Ilidza, everyone, wherever Vaske moved during the course of the war, knew

15     that on this skull there was a UN helmet.  And then the Prosecutor brings

16     a witness who claims that this was not a UN helmet.  So something came up

17     in cross-examination that I had to react to, and it's quite justified for

18     me to react in this way.

19             This is not of crucial significance.  It just has to do with the

20     witness's credibility and nothing else.  After all, it can be one and the

21     same thing, whether it is with a helmet or without a helmet, except for

22     the fact that the skull had to be protected from the rain.  So if nothing

23     else, that is why it was there.  So I think that the Prosecutor is

24     turning all this into a problem for no reason whatsoever.

25             You will remember, when the first expert of the Prosecution,

Page 8367

 1     Anthony Oberschall was heard, it was only in re-examination that

 2     Christine Dahl put to him my book ...

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the title.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] ... and I could not react.  Also

 5     she quoted what Schiller and other great poets said, and then I could not

 6     react to that, either.  And now out of this benign affair, the Prosecutor

 7     is making a problem.  And it is no problem whatsoever, two minutes only.

 8     You should see that I, Tomislav Nikolic, Vasilije Vidovic,

 9     Nikola Poplasen around that jeep, and perhaps there was someone else too,

10     just after we were missed by a firing Maljutka from the Muslim positions,

11     when we managed to get out of the jeep to see what the damage was due to

12     the gunfire.  And now the Prosecutor is turning that into a problem.

13             Isn't the truth what the Prosecutor is after, not creating

14     problems all the time on some kind of legal grounds?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             The Trial Chamber is only interested in the truth and everything

17     that can help us to get to truth.  That being said, the procedure of the

18     Tribunal allows the Prosecutor, even during the trial, to continue his

19     investigation.  This is, of course, possible, and this has been

20     authorised by this Tribunal.

21             When the investigation continues, new elements may appear,

22     elements that had not been there when the indictment was drafted or at

23     the beginning of trial, so new elements can occur, and I would like to

24     remind the Prosecution that they used a cassette in the Milosevic trial,

25     for instance.

Page 8368

 1             Secondly, the accused is defending himself.  He is presenting, at

 2     the very last moment, evidence as part of his cross-examination.  Now,

 3     this evidence can be presented to the witness in a few minutes, because

 4     the witness made a description.  Nothing will be easier for the witness

 5     to say if, in fact, that was the car, that was the skull, and that was

 6     the helmet, because now we have a picture.

 7             Now, about the video, I don't know if there is a technical

 8     problem.  There is a two-minute video that should be arriving shortly.

 9     The Registry told us that there is a technical problem that will have to

10     be solved.  I don't know if the problem will be solved, indeed.  Let's

11     wait and see.

12             Now, more generally, we have to go back in time somewhat.  It is

13     true that if Mr. Seselj had a counsel, we would not have had a certain

14     amount of problems, but Mr. Seselj is in a quite different situation.  He

15     expressed his desire not to be represented by counsel, and

16     notwithstanding this, evidence was sent to the standby lawyer with whom

17     Mr. Seselj had no contact.  All this evidence was in the possession of

18     the standby lawyer, and then after that, this evidence was sent to the

19     Registry.  This is why Mr. Seselj was not able to take all the necessary

20     measures in order to disclose all these documents, and since the trial

21     started he is faced to -- he has to face the situation, and he did

22     explain to us on many occasions that he has to proceed witness by

23     witness.  He was only -- in fact, whenever a witness comes along, he has

24     to prepare his cross-examination.  This technique obviously may bring

25     that some evidence is disclosed at the very last minute, such as

Page 8369

 1     spontaneous testimonies of witnesses that appear on behalf of the Defence

 2     of Mr. Seselj, or regarding some evidence that he could obtain at the

 3     very last moment, such as yesterday, the article pertaining to the

 4     presence of Mr. Karadzic during a televised interview on the night of

 5     November 19, 1993.

 6             So during the examination-in-chief, new elements may appear.  The

 7     Defence has to verify them right away, and if they wish to contradict

 8     this or challenge this, they can do it during the cross-examination.  And

 9     this is why, also, on the other side, the same thing can happen.  And

10     when the Defence will begin, when the Defence begins with the witnesses,

11     if in examination-in-chief some elements -- important elements appear for

12     the Prosecution, they will also be able to introduce documents at the

13     very last minute during their cross-examination.

14             So basically this is what I had to say on this point.

15             Yes, Mr. Dutertre.

16             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I

17     understand very well everything you said, but I wish to say the

18     following.

19             The Prosecution doesn't have any objection that a document be

20     disclosed or it be presented because all of a sudden somebody forgot it

21     and the document just appeared, but this is done in a systematic way.

22     The accused had all the weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.  I don't see

23     why he could not have sent us this video or the picture on Monday, or at

24     least Tuesday morning, when the cross-examination began.  I believe that

25     there was a delay of a couple of days.  I don't know if this document,

Page 8370

 1     this photograph, comes from Mr. Vaske.  Mr. Vaske may have sent the

 2     documents in this picture, but why didn't we receive the photograph of

 3     this picture at the same time as the documents?  If the documents were

 4     disclosed earlier and sent earlier, this picture should have been

 5     disclosed earlier as well.  Knowing that this particular witness would

 6     have had a couple of days before cross-examination, this should have been

 7     done.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, in fact the

 9     Trial Chamber quite agrees with the Prosecutor on that point.  If you had

10     had this document for a few days now, you should have disclosed it before

11     the beginning of the cross-examination.  Maybe you only obtained it

12     yesterday.  That is something I don't know.  But if you had this document

13     before, you should have disclosed it, and if something like that happens

14     in the future, you should disclose it immediately.

15             So now we agree with the Prosecutor on that point.

16             Yes, Mr. Seselj.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't mind you agreeing with the

18     Prosecutor, but I received this this morning from the Registrar.

19             Last night, I said already that I could not have envisaged the

20     witness is going to deny a fact that at least 100.000 people are aware of

21     in the area where Vaske Vidovic moved about, that on the plastic skull

22     there was a UN helmet.  I could not have dreamed of that.  And then I

23     said last night to my associates, "Find Vaske Vidovic.  Does he have any

24     photographs of the jeep?"

25             When we were there, the entire leadership of the Serb Radical

Page 8371

 1     Party was visiting Ilijas, Vogosca, Blazuj, Ilidza.  Find the photograph

 2     of when we were shot at by the Maljutka and you can see the jeep and you

 3     can see the helmet on that photograph.  I wouldn't dream of it otherwise.

 4             Why would I deal with a period that is not charged in the

 5     indictment?  I just want to look at this detail in order to challenge the

 6     witness's credibility, because yesterday several times categorically he

 7     denied that there was a UN helmet on the skull, and the skull was getting

 8     caught in the rain and so on and so forth.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you very much.

10     You've explained it to us.  It is quite understandable if you received

11     this document at the very last minute.  I understand.

12             Now, let's go back to the video, however.  I would like to raise

13     this issue for the following reason:  Well, first of all, this video has

14     to, first of all, arrive, but if it does arrive, I do not know the

15     content of the video.  I have absolutely no idea what the video will

16     show.

17             Now, when the Prosecutor, on his 65 ter list, makes a list of

18     videos, there are these videos that enable the Trial Chamber to see -- to

19     view the video prior to its presentation, but you are -- you desire to

20     show us a video, but I cannot control it because it would arrive at the

21     very last minute.  So if we take this hypothesis, if the video arrives

22     and if it's only a two-minute-long video, I propose to go into closed

23     session for two minutes.  And then after we've viewed the video, then we

24     can go back into open session and then it can be shown to everybody,

25     because if that video contains an element that could be a problem, the

Page 8372

 1     Trial Chamber has the possibility of ordering closed session or

 2     redactions.  Then we can do that.  So even if there are people in the

 3     public gallery, then we can do it that way.  So this is the procedure

 4     that we could use.

 5             First of all, the video can be shown in closed session, then --

 6     in private session.  Then we see it.  And then after that, we can show it

 7     again in open session.

 8             The Registry just informed me that the video has arrived, and the

 9     video lasts 1 minute and 40 seconds.

10             Yes, Mr. Seselj.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I agree that the

12     video should first be viewed in closed session and then in open session.

13     However, do not include the closed session video in my time, because

14     these are your precautionary measures, not mine, because I want the

15     public to see this.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, no problem at all.

18     I completely agree with you, and thank you for your cooperation.

19             Very well.  Now, Mr. Seselj, the cross-examination can begin, and

20     you have the floor.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that I should leave the

22     video until the end, but since it's arrived, I would like to start with

23     that, and then I will go on with the rest of my questions and then we'll

24     see.

25             So first show this photograph that arrived this morning to the

Page 8373

 1     witness.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You would like this

 3     picture to be shown to the witness immediately?  Very well.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please put it on the ELMO.

 5                           WITNESS:  SAFET SEJDIC [Resumed]

 6                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need to display it to the public

 8     as well.

 9             I still can't see it on my screen.  Can you put it on this screen

10     that goes into the internet?  Ah, here it is.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:  [Continued]

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Sejdic, to the best of your recollection, is this the

13     jeep of Vasilije Vidovic?

14        A.   It is similar to this jeep, but this is not the jeep.  And this

15     helmet and this head -- I mean, the head is that one, but the helmet is

16     not, because that jeep had two poles on both sides where the wheels are,

17     there were two poles, and on that pole there was a flag that I already

18     described, and on the other one was the head.  That is what I described

19     at Crna Rijeka Plateau.

20        Q.   All right.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you show the video clip now.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session

23     first.  Madam Registrar, can we go into private session, please.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Since the witness will be

Page 8374

 1     able to see the video and there are people in the public gallery, we have

 2     to lower the blinds.

 3                           [Closed session]

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Page 8375











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Page 8378

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, can I just ask you if the car on the

Page 8379

 1     photo is indeed the car we saw on the video?  And of course I'm referring

 2     to the right headlight of the car, which is intact here and which seemed

 3     to be destroyed on the video.  So I just want to ascertain if it is,

 4     indeed, the same car or if you're talking about another car.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Judges, from what I

 6     know, this is the same vehicle.  I don't know whether this photograph was

 7     taken before or after the Maljutka.  But after the Maljutka, the

 8     headlight was repaired.  You see there is a lot of damage on the bonnet,

 9     on the sides, on the bumpers, and there are no license plates on the

10     vehicle.  Maybe the vehicle itself used to belong to the United Nations

11     and that's why it was repainted, but I cannot know that for a fact.  You

12     know how many vehicles and jeeps the UN lost during the war in Bosnia.

13     Therefore, it's most probably the same vehicle, but if we look at the

14     photograph, if we look at the type of the vehicle and other details, then

15     we'll know for sure.  But the skull is certainly the same.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Seselj, we are now in

17     open session, so I must say that the Chamber, as a majority, decided to

18     show a video which is shown during the cross-examination by the accused.

19     Prior to that, a photograph showing a vehicle was presented to the

20     witness.  The witness said that this could very well be the same car that

21     he saw.

22             We will now watch this video, which is one hour and 49 seconds

23     long.  We are asking the interpreters to do their best to translate the

24     words that they can understand being said by these people in this video,

25     and then we'll see whether there are -- whether the photo and the video

Page 8380

 1     are alike or not.

 2             Madam Registrar, can we see the video.

 3                           [Videotape played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "The stars looked over you.  He

 5     wouldn't have had time to fill it.  They say Maljutka -- no, no, it's not

 6     a Maljutka.  The Maljutka would have produced a greater flame.  Possibly

 7     it was hissing."

 8             Everybody talking at the same time.

 9             "When he was shooting, the road is destroyed.  There is a hole in

10     the road."

11             "Well, then, it's pure coincidence.  It's your luck.  No, you --

12     some heard the hissing.  I didn't."

13             Seselj:  "It must have been an idiot who was shooting, his hand

14     was trembling.  Let's go, let's go, we have to make it in good time."

15             Seselj:  "They were shooting at this UNPROFOR guy of mine."

16             Another voice:  "They were not going to shoot at you, were they?"

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In the translation

18     we obtained from the interpreters, let me sum up what was said.  It seems

19     that there was a discussion on this Maljutka, there was a hissing.

20     Obviously, people are talking right -- are talking after a shot by a

21     Maljutka.  The person shooting the video, at the very end, zooms on the

22     front right of the vehicle, where we see that part of the headlight must

23     have been broken by the shot.  However, we note that the car seems to be

24     almost new, but that compared to the photograph, without advertising for

25     this brand, there is the mention of Toyota which we do not see on the

Page 8381

 1     photograph.  So it might be the same vehicle, but on the photograph the

 2     mention "Toyota" might have been taken out later on, because we don't

 3     have "Toyota" on the photograph, whereas it is shown on the video.  We

 4     can watch the video again, if need be.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I say something first,

 6     Mr. President?  I think those are two different vehicles, because this

 7     one [indicates] reminds me of a Mercedes jeep, but I'm not 100 per cent

 8     sure.  You see above the central headlight, there is a sign.  The other

 9     one is a Toyota.  However, the war lasted from 1992 until the beginning

10     of 1996.  This is an older jeep that was well used, damaged, in poor

11     working order.  That one is a new jeep, but the skull and the helmet are

12     the same.

13             I can check with Vaske Vidovic in the course of the day.  Vaske

14     must have had to change the jeep at some point, but that's what was his

15     hallmark.  He was identifiable by this jeep with the skull and the helmet

16     of the United Nations on it.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] We now have a problem.  The only

18     problem is to know whether the car that was mentioned by the witness

19     yesterday is the same one as the one we see either on the video or on the

20     photograph.

21             Mr. Seselj, could you please endeavour to elicit that from the

22     witness, and the -- or the Judges will do it.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd rather the Judges took

24     over that task from me immediately, because that would save my time.  I

25     presented the evidence that I disposed of, and you can take over the

Page 8382

 1     examination at any point, because the witness denies that there was a

 2     helmet of the United Nations on the skull, and we see two skulls and two

 3     identical helmets of the same kind.  That's the thing that makes it

 4     identifiable.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll take over.

 6             Witness, the car that you were mentioning yesterday, you said

 7     that on the right-hand side of the door, it had an emblem.  Is it the

 8     same one as the one we see here on the video?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's not the

10     vehicle Vaske was driving then.  Maybe he used it before, when he was

11     driving him and his associates, but Vaske's hardware and Vaske's jeep

12     looked completely different.  He had that sign at the front, like two

13     tubes going from the car, and above the jeep he had raised headlights,

14     nighttime headlights, yellow.  And I told you there were two bars,

15     uprights, on one of them a flag and on the other one a head, and between

16     them was an old skull, I don't know from which century.  It was on the

17     car.

18             I indicated that at the beginning, when I had -- when he was

19     questioning me.  I presented clear, accurate evidence.  This car could

20     have been used when they were driving him around and when they put this

21     UN helmet on the skull so that the UN wouldn't shoot them, thinking it

22     was their own jeep.  He was quite able to put it on the skull, himself.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I am interested in the emblem

24     that we see in the video on the right-hand side, the right-hand door of

25     the vehicle.  Do you remember whether, on Vaske's car, there was a

Page 8383

 1     similar emblem?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that emblem was there, but

 3     that's not the same jeep.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Was it a Mercedes or a Toyota?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know for sure.  I can't

 6     remember that much.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question, Witness.

 9             On the video, we see almost the same helmet and the same skull.

10     The photograph shows that there is a likeness.  That's what we're

11     interested in did.  You saw the video with the UN helmet and the skull.

12     You confirm that this is what you saw?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I saw it.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

17     has a question as to the relevance of this.  Is there relevance, to your

18     mind?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you ask me, this is just one

20     more piece of evidence that this witness is devoid of even elementary

21     credibility.  If the Prosecution had investigated, they could have found

22     100.000 witnesses who could have confirmed that the skull had a helmet,

23     that only such a skull with a helmet existed on Vaske's jeep.  Those

24     were -- it's complete nonsense that there was a real human head next to

25     this skull on the jeep, that a real human head couldn't have lasted hours

Page 8384

 1     before decomposing and stinking.  Plus a flag, a flag would have been

 2     torn within hours at that speed.  He would have had to change flags every

 3     few hours every day.  It's impossible.  Every flag, made of fabric, at a

 4     speed of 50 kilometres an hour, tears.  What would it have had to be made

 5     of, metal?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

 7             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The comments on the credibility of

 8     this witness should be left for the accused -- for his closing brief.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Proceed with your

10     questions, please.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Yesterday, Mr. Sejdic, we discussed you were allegedly used as a

13     human shield, and you said at the end that the Semizovac Battalion, in

14     whose labour platoon you were until 1993, had 300, even 400 soldiers?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   But the only labour platoon of the Semizovac Battalion had 25

17     men, and how then a battalion of 300- to 400-men battalion uses only 25

18     men to put forward and use as a human shield?  How are you able to shield

19     300 or 400 soldiers?

20        A.   As far as I know, at the frontline at that time there were not

21     enough soldiers, so not all the 300 or 400 soldiers were there all the

22     time.  There were older people, not so able, who were just guarding the

23     frontline.  And when an attack started from all directions, from

24     Rajlovac, Vogosca, Ilidza, all the men would gather from everywhere, and

25     that's how they went into attack.

Page 8385

 1        Q.   All right.  Out of 25 of you, you said only 4 got killed?

 2        A.   More got killed.  Seven or eight remained alive out of the

 3     twenty-five.  I have a list, and you see the exact numbers and names in

 4     my statements.  You can see how many of them stayed alive.  The Court can

 5     look at it and check what I said and see if it's true or not.

 6        Q.   Your wages while you were in the labour platoon was just

 7     20 per cent less than the wages of a member of a fighting unit; correct?

 8        A.   Not correct.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Could you please

10     display this document given me by the Prosecution, 0200-0629, because the

11     witness denies that his wages were only 20 per cent lower in this labour

12     platoon than the wages of a fighting man.  This is a document from 1992,

13     June 1992, I think.  We'll see it in a moment.

14        Q.   You see the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     Serbian Municipality of Vogosca, War Commissariat.

16             "The Wartime Presidency of the Serbian Municipality of Vogosca

17     hereby decides that all persons in the units of the Serbian Army in the

18     municipality of Vogosca and those engaged for labour for the month of

19     June 1992, monthly wages shall be paid out:

20             "1.  To those engaged in fighting units, 50.000 dinars.  To those

21     engaged in labour obligation, 40.000 dinars."

22             Have you seen this?

23        A.   This has nothing to do with anything.

24        Q.   This is evidence that your wages in the labour platoon was only

25     20 per cent lower than the wages of a soldier.  When you left the labour

Page 8386

 1     unit, you had the same wages as a soldier?

 2        A.   This not true.  It's only towards the end of the war that I

 3     received humanitarian aid, food, five kilos of flour per family, some tin

 4     cans, fish and cheese.

 5        Q.   Towards the end of the war?

 6        A.   No, I said when I was engaged, and the rest that was received by

 7     my wife, my mother, my father, they got humanitarian aid.  How else could

 8     we have made ends meet?  We needed to work.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have a document

10     here.  It seems reliable.  We have a stamp, we have a signature.  There's

11     the name of Nikola Poplasen, a person that we've mentioned many times.

12     This document seems to make a difference between those who are in the

13     combat units and the other soldiers who do not seem engaged in combat.

14     The first ones would receive 50.000 dinars, and the second category would

15     get 40.000 dinars.

16             Now, given this, if we have a document that says that you

17     received 50.000 dinars, any reasonable trier of fact could deduct from

18     this that you were a member of a fighting unit.

19             Let me add that this document is dated June 23rd, 1992.  I'm

20     saying that out of memory.  June 25th, 1992.  It seems that the members

21     of the unit were given this amount of money.

22             So what can you say to this?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not receive

24     this, and I stand by what I'm saying.  I was not a member of this unit,

25     either.  So towards the end of the war, they could have put me on a list

Page 8387

 1     to do with me whatever they wanted.  They knew if they couldn't kill me,

 2     if I stay in Muslim hands, when the Muslims come into authority, they

 3     left this list in the Command so that the Muslims would kill me.

 4             After the war, I applied, myself, to make statements and to

 5     testify, to come here, and I'm prepared to say what exactly I was.  I'm

 6     not saying I was what I wasn't.  I suffered a lot.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

 8     witness.  Do you know whether, in the Serbian Army, among the normal

 9     components of this Serbian Army, there was a difference made between

10     those who were engaged in fighting and those who were doing other kinds

11     of missions, as far as salary is concerned?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that for a fact.  I

13     never had any insight into their lists.  I was not in the Command.  I did

14     not serve as a secretary.  I didn't distribute wages.  Their bosses

15     should know that.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But maybe you know whether they

17     were regular members of this army.  Maybe they were Serbian, maybe they

18     could have also been Croats or Muslims that would have been normally

19     recruited, freely recruited, and not forced to be mobilised.  So whether

20     you know if these kind of members of the army who were doing labour, but

21     who were not engaged in fighting, was there a difference between these

22     two categories or were these two types of functions totally

23     interchangeable?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was that distinction.

25     Certain labour platoons, let's say Vogosca or Ilijas, they gave them 20

Page 8388

 1     dinars so that they could buy cigarettes.  So they were in that unit,

 2     these people whom they called loyal, who swore their loyalty and who

 3     stayed with them, yes.

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I was asking you something that

 5     was slightly different.  I'd like to know whether in the army, the army

 6     that you were recruited in, either freely or not, but you were in this

 7     army, and I'd like to know whether there were soldiers who were only

 8     engaged in labour.  I'm not talking about forced labour.  I'm talking

 9     about the regular members of this army who had been mobilised normally.

10     I'd like to know whether they were -- in this category of people, there

11     were soldiers who were maybe doing support functions for those who were

12     engaged in combat and who might have been paid less than the actual

13     fighters who went to fight.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, those who were labour units,

15     who were in the labour platoon.

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] So let's be very direct.  There

17     were also Serbs that were in the labour platoon, but they had not been

18     forced to be in that labour platoon.  They were just in that labour

19     platoon, and maybe they obtained a salary that was lower than the

20     soldiers who were engaged in combat activities?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, are you going to

23     ask for this document to be admitted?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  No, there's no need,

25     absolutely.

Page 8389

 1             How much time have I got left?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is your point of view.  I

 3     might have a different one.  In the interests of justice, I will first

 4     consult with my fellow Judges to see whether we should admit this exhibit

 5     as a Court exhibit for the following reasons:  In paragraph 103 of the

 6     pre-trial brief, this document is obviously relevant because it shows --

 7     it proves that on June 23rd, 1992, there were soldiers, that there is a

 8     difference made between combat units and other units which seem to be in

 9     the rear only.  Furthermore, this document also establishes, as far as

10     I'm concerned, anyway, the possibility that fighters were not volunteers,

11     quote/unquote, but that they were subjected to a command-and-control

12     system, because we have a military order with reference to the

13     Republika Srpska, with the registration number and so forth and so on.

14             I would first like to ask my fellow Judges whether they are in

15     favour or against the admission of this document, in the interests of

16     justice.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, I wanted to ask you in which capacity

19     Nikola Poplasen had ordered the payment of combatants and members of the

20     work platoons.  Was that in his capacity as a member of the Radical Party

21     or was it in his capacity or possible capacity as a member of the

22     government of Republika Srpska?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, I'm sure you

24     remember my objection in relation to what the Prosecution did, when they

25     gave me a pile of documents with Nikola Poplasen's signature when another

Page 8390

 1     witness testified here.  I attacked the Prosecution here rather sharply

 2     because I thought that this was trickery in a way.

 3             In that year, he was not a member of the Radical Party,

 4     Nikola Poplasen.  He was the war commissioner of the government of

 5     Republika Srpska for Vogosca who was personally appointed by

 6     Radovan Karadzic.  That document was also given to me by the Prosecution.

 7     In this set of documents, I have that one as well on his appointment.

 8             Nikola Poplasen, at the beginning of 1993, became a member of the

 9     Serb Radical Party, and then he was elected its president.  Before that,

10     we had only three committees of the party in Banja Luka, Bijeljina and

11     Sarajevo respectively, whereas the party was registered by Nikodin Cavic

12     from Banja Luka in 1992.  According to our then personnel policy, we

13     thought it was much better that Nikola Poplasen, as a doctor of political

14     sciences and a youngish man, should be president of the party in

15     Republika Srpska.  Nikodin Cavic was a highly honourable man, a lawyer,

16     but he was already well advanced in age at the time, and he's died in the

17     meantime.

18             So this was a personnel choice that we made in 1993.

19             In 1992, when he was war commissioner, Nikola Poplasen had

20     nothing to do whatsoever with the Serb Radical Party.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, the video we saw just a while ago,

23     when was that taken?  You may have told us, but I've forgotten.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In 1995, sometime -- well, it was

25     the summer of 1995.  I cannot remember exactly what the date was, but we

Page 8391

 1     could even find that in our archives; that is to say, that it is not

 2     within the period relative to the indictment, but approximately it was in

 3     1995.  That is when Nikola Poplasen was already president of the

 4     Serb Radical Party for Republika Srpska.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me consult my

 6     fellow Judges.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber

 9     deliberated and decides to admit the document as a court exhibit.

10             Madam Registrar, could you please give us a number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit C7.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Mr. Seselj, the Registry informs me that you have 16 minutes

14     left.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we were told on what

16     date the video was taken, but I would like to know if Mr. Seselj

17     remembers where the video was taken.  He should remember, because he was

18     attacked on that day.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that the video was

20     shot in 1995.  Do you know where it was shot?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The attack happened at Poljine, on

22     the slopes to the north of Sarajevo.  Since the Serb municipalities of

23     Ilijas, Vogosca, Ilidza, and Hadzici were isolated from the rest of

24     Republika Srpska when the airport was handed over to the UN, there was no

25     direct communication.  Then the Serb Army built a macadam road on the

Page 8392

 1     slopes that are called Poljine, and on part of that road, people who

 2     passed there could be within the range of fire of the Muslims.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Since you insisted on your assertion that on the very eve of the

 6     attack on Niksic Plateau, Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic and I met up

 7     there, in the meantime I received information from my friend,

 8     General Ratko Mladic, who says that he cannot remember exactly where he

 9     was on the 9th of November, 1993, but he is quite certain that the three

10     of us did not meet up at that point of departure, in terms of the attack

11     at Niksic Plateau, and he drew my attention to another thing.  The

12     Command of the Serb Army never would have allowed three such prominent

13     Serbian military and political leaders to be exposed to enemy fire.  One

14     shell could have been fired precisely and killed all three of us, and

15     that would have been a great loss for the Serb people.  That is what

16     Ratko Mladic says.

17             What do you think?  Is his explanation convincing?

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Mladic is at

19     large.  As we all know, Mr. Seselj seems to have an easy access to

20     Mr. Mladic.  In order to assess the reliability on the information that

21     he just gave us, he should tell us where, how and under which conditions

22     he obtained that information.  Yesterday, I put the same question about

23     Mr. Karadzic, and the answer was more than vague, if I recall correctly.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor would like to test the reliability of

Page 8393

 1     your information.  He put a series of questions.  You may answer or you

 2     very well may not want to answer.  It's up to you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the Prosecutor has an

 4     enormous number of personnel available, and they could carry out proper

 5     investigations every now and then.  I'm not here to give information to

 6     the Prosecution, let alone information that would harm my friends

 7     Ratko Mladic or Radovan Karadzic.  I'd rather die, myself, as I said

 8     yesterday.  So the Prosecution should not hope for anything on that

 9     score, as far as I'm concerned.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it's up to you, but

11     you also have to understand that you are not giving any elements to the

12     Trial Chamber.  We cannot know if the witness is credible or not on that

13     basis.  That's up to you, of course.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  If you doubt the

15     reliability, then I'm going to move on to my next question, because I

16     don't have much time left.  After all, what would a comment by this

17     witness mean to me with regard to information that I received from

18     General Ratko Mladic?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, to sum up, I would

20     like to explain to you what the problem is, and this will not be taken

21     from Mr. Seselj's time.

22             This issue was talked at length, the possibility that Mr. Seselj

23     eventually has to meet Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic and other people,

24     because [indiscernible] -- I'm sorry if I'm not pronouncing correctly,

25     but you yourself were present and there were other military leaders

Page 8394

 1     there.  You also told us that at that point, you were carrying ammunition

 2     because some shooting was taking place.  This is what you are telling us.

 3     I have absolutely no reason to doubt what you are telling us.  But,

 4     firstly, Mr. Seselj challenges that fact because he says that he was not

 5     there, and then, through mysterious ways, Mr. Mladic would have told him

 6     that technically that would have been impossible because militarily

 7     speaking, it would never be authorised that at a same place, you would

 8     put personalities of such a high profile in order to protect them,

 9     because if a shell had fallen, everybody could have died at the same

10     time, so this could have had some consequences.  So the army would have

11     never accepted that type of gathering, so Mr. Seselj withdrew his

12     question for procedural matters, but I am interested in the answer.  Do

13     you challenge this fact or do you still -- or this vision, rather, or do

14     you still maintain what you're saying?  Because to tell you the truth, I

15     thought carefully, and I wondered if, on the one hand, you could not

16     maybe be confusing the fact that Mr. Seselj came in 1994, he did come,

17     but he came after, not during that period, and maybe 15 years later, your

18     memory could be mistaken.  There could be a confusion in your mind.  This

19     can happen, because if you ask me what I did 15 years ago, I would

20     perhaps not be able to tell you exactly what I did.

21             So it is quite possible that when one is talking about an event

22     that took place 15 years ago, it's quite possible that various periods in

23     time can be mixed up.  So what can you tell us on that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honour, as for

25     what I said earlier on, all of that is correct and true, that I saw him

Page 8395

 1     up there.  And what he is saying, that the Muslim forces could have fired

 2     and killed them all, they were behind tanks.  There were tanks in front

 3     of them, firing at the village.  The village was exhausted.  It's not

 4     that they had that many weapons.  It's not that they could fire back at

 5     them, because they were taking these Muslim positions.  They attacked

 6     Crna Rijeka all of a sudden and they took everything they had, because

 7     they were firing from their tanks and none of the Muslims could have hit

 8     them.

 9             They were there, that's where I saw them, and it doesn't have to

10     mean that since it's been 15 years or 20 years, that I don't remember.

11     My memory is good.  I remember that, and that is why I am here, because I

12     remember all of that.  And I pointed that out on the first day, and that

13     is what I'm saying today as well.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  How far was the distance

15     from the plateau, in your memory?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly, but I think

17     it was about two and a half kilometres from them.  So the tanks were

18     firing at that village.  That is right off the main road.  Perhaps it was

19     about 50 metres away from the main road.  It was close to the entrance

20     into Crna Rijeka.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So two kilometres

22     and a half.  You should know that a very good sniper can, at that

23     distance of 2.5 kilometres, may hit a target.  So seeing a civilian, or

24     seeing Karadzic or Mladic, a sniper could have very well shot them or

25     fired at them.  Would you consider that or is that completely impossible,

Page 8396

 1     to your mind?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's impossible, Your Honour.

 3     When they were attacking, when there was this all-out attack, the Muslims

 4     didn't have enough time to put their shoes on, let alone fire at them.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My last set of questions has to do with the statement of

 8     General Dragan Josipovic.  That is document Roman numeral III.

 9     General Josipovic gives me 12 points here challenging what you said

10     during your cross-examination and your statements, and in the first

11     point -- I'm going to deal with this point by point, and I'm going to ask

12     you to say what you have to say in relation to that.  General Josipovic

13     says:

14             "I was never commander of the Vogosca Brigade.  I was commander

15     of the Ilijas Brigade, and from June 1993, I was commander of the

16     Tactical Group of Vogosca, that the Ilijas, Vogosca, Kosevo, and Rajlovac

17     Brigades belonged to.  In February 1994, out of the last three brigades,

18     the Semizovac Battalion and the battalion of Srednje, the 3rd Sarajevo

19     Infantry Brigade was established, and I was its commander.  The Command

20     Post of the Tactical Group of Vogosca, after the prison was disbanded,

21     was the Sonja facility."

22             Is that correct, to the best of your knowledge?

23        A.   That is correct, but what is not correct is that he was not the

24     commander.  He was the commander then.  In Vogosca, Ilijas, Semizovac, so

25     from all sides, they addressed him.

Page 8397

 1        Q.   That is from June 1993, when he became commander of the

 2     Tactical Group; right?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I don't recall exactly.

 4        Q.   Further on, General Josipovic says:

 5             "The prison facilities and their structure were a separate

 6     organisational unit that was regulated by the Ministry of Justice.  The

 7     war obligation that Safet Sejdic belonged to was carried out through the

 8     organs of civil authority in the Vogosca municipality."

 9             Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   "3.  Reserve Lieutenant Rajko Jankovic became commander of the

12     Semizovac Battalion in December 1992, and his predecessors were

13     Mr. Torbica and Mico Colak."

14             Is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   "4.  The time of combat activities in which the frontline was

17     moved by --" all right, I'm going to read slower:

18             "The time of combat operations in which the frontline was moved

19     by the BH Army is related to October and November 1992."

20             Is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   "5.  The category of a human shield is unknown to me, because if

23     it were effective, probably all commanders would use it for taking enemy

24     positions.  I claim with full responsibility that no such thing happened

25     in the units that I commanded."

Page 8398

 1             Is that correct?

 2        A.   That is not correct.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's move on:

 4             "On the basis of the aforementioned, it is obvious that

 5     Vaske Vidovic and Rajko Jankovic were in completely different structural

 6     and territorial units, the Ilijas and Vogosca Brigade.  Apart from that,

 7     every battalion and brigade had their own mobile units.  At the time,

 8     most often they were called 'Intervention Units.'  It is senseless to

 9     link all activities and events in the area of responsibility to these two

10     units."

11             Is that correct?

12        A.   I don't remember that.

13        Q.   All right.  General Josipovic says further on:

14             "I have to say that the structure of the unit of Vaske Vidovic,

15     in terms of type of weaponry, was a support unit."

16             Is that correct?

17        A.   I don't remember that, either.  I didn't write this text.

18        Q.   All right.  But Vaske had artillery pieces, anti-aircraft guns

19     and so on?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   All right.  Number 8:

22             "I don't know what led Mr. Sejdic to add yet another head in

23     addition to the skull to Vaske's jeep, but that certainly belongs to the

24     domain of fantasy."

25             Is that correct?

Page 8399

 1        A.   That is not correct.  I stand by what I said.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's move on:

 3             "9.  As for fighting at the Niksic Plateau, I must, first of all,

 4     explain that this was fighting that was imposed on us.  The reason is

 5     that after the fighting between the Muslim and Croatian forces and the

 6     defeat of Croatian forces in Vares, the Muslim forces reached the

 7     Niksic Plateau, where they reached the road Ilijas-Srednje-Sokolac,

 8     threatening to completely cut off the northern and northeastern part of

 9     the Sarajevo theatre of war.  On the basis of that, an operation was

10     planned and carried out, and parts of the forces of Tactical Group

11     Vogosca, the Igman and Ilidza Brigades, took part in this."

12             Is that correct?

13        A.   That is not correct, because at the Crna Rijeka Plateau, when the

14     Serbs took Crna Rijeka, after that, when the Muslims and the Croats

15     clashed, when the Muslims drove the Croats away, they crossed Crna Rijeka

16     because Jankovic, Josipovic and the rest of their guys let the Croats go

17     through their territory.

18        Q.   Well, first and foremost, they probably wanted to save the

19     Croatian population from Muslim retaliation, and that's why they let them

20     cross through the Republika Srpska and reach their own people.  This was

21     a humanitarian gesture, wasn't it?

22        A.   I don't know, but I just know that they let them through there

23     because they held Crna Rijeka and they knew the Serbs did -- when they

24     would take Crna Rijeka and when they would attack.

25        Q.   Further on:

Page 8400

 1             "The operation started on the 9th of November by bringing the

 2     unit into the area, and the immediate combat activities started in the

 3     early-morning hours on the 10th of November.  Enemy resistance was broken

 4     down around 1430 hours, so around 1600 hours, units were stopped at the

 5     line attained and they moved to defence.  The unit of Rajko Jankovic, on

 6     the 11th of November, was sent to the area of the village of Zubet, which

 7     is about five kilometres away as the crow flies to the southeast of the

 8     village of Crna Rijeka.  The unit of Vaske Vidovic had the task to give

 9     firing support to the forces on the left flank on the road towards

10     Crna Rijeka.  Vaske's motorised platoon was taken out of combat and

11     returned to base."

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'll give you the

13     floor in a second, but the Trial Chamber has a slight problem.

14     General Josipovic wrote all that, and he said on the 9th of October,

15     there were some units that were deployed and fighting took place, but

16     what year are we talking about, 1992, 1993, 1994, what year?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is 1993.  That is the attack on

18     the Niksic Plateau, Mr. President.  It's the 9th of November, 1993.  What

19     he is portraying for you here is the tactical situation, and it is

20     obvious that Vaske Vidovic's unit was on one side and Ranko Jankovic's

21     unit was on the completely opposite side.  Since this witness belonged to

22     Rajko Jankovic's unit, he could not even see Vaske in that area, because

23     there were five kilometres between.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Objection.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed?

Page 8401

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   "Vaske's motorised platoon was pulled out of the fighting and

 4     returned to base.  The reason was that Josilo, Zoran, a member of his

 5     unit, got killed from friendly fire, or, rather, when one of the -- when

 6     one of the units was moving, it fired also on positions where Vaske was.

 7     Both units were pulled out of the fighting and returned to base, to avoid

 8     possible incidents."

 9             Were you aware at all that there was considerable error in which

10     one Serb unit opened fire on another and Vaske's soldier, Zoran Josilo,

11     was killed?

12        A.   That's not true.

13        Q.   Did you hear of Zoran Josilo?

14        A.   No, but I know it's not true.

15        Q.   How do you know that if you were with Rajko Jankovic?

16        A.   I'm saying that it's not true.  Vaske's unit did not move.  When

17     they took that territory under control, they left their weapons and

18     troops to control it, and Vaske and Jankovic would then return in their

19     jeeps to their pavilions, to their commands.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's go to point 10.  General Josipovic says:

21             "In the course of preparation and execution of combat operations,

22     one of the most important elements is secrecy in order to achieve a

23     surprise against the enemy.  To achieve this, a series of manoeuvres and

24     camouflage of movement is undertaken.  I am saying this to show that

25     nobody normal would risk their own or other people's life creating an

Page 8402

 1     atmosphere of a football match.  Unfortunately, I never had the privilege

 2     to perform combat activities before the gentlemen that he indicated.

 3     None of those enumerated at that time was not even close to that area,

 4     and I personally believe that President Karadzic and Dr. Vojislav Seselj

 5     have never in their lives been in that area."

 6        A.   That's not true.  When you were touring Sarajevo, how did you

 7     come then?

 8        Q.   Well, I said I was in Ilijas for the first time in 1994.  At

 9     least that is something the Prosecution can help with.  The Muslim secret

10     police can give them proof, when I was in Ilijas for the first time.  Let

11     me finish with the statement.

12        A.   It's not true.

13        Q.   Item 11, General Josipovic says:

14             "I believe it is my duty to refresh the memory of

15     Mr. Safet Sejdic, for whom I have only respect as a member of one of the

16     units that I commanded, that in this fighting in the area of Zubeta, as a

17     member of the Semizovac Battalion, he personally liquidated one enemy

18     soldier and captured a mortar, a 60-millimetre mortar, and received

19     commendation from the commander for it.  Certainly, Mr. Sejdic knows that

20     his fellow fighters from the unit can confirm his courage and his

21     soldierly conduct.  Mr. Sejdic, everybody knows that as well, he knows,

22     too, that a member of the Intervention Platoon is -- you cannot become a

23     member of the Intervention Platoon by following rallies and carrying

24     water."

25        A.   You know full well that is not true.  After what I said here, he

Page 8403

 1     could have written whatever well he liked.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Seselj has to slow down and observe pauses

 3     between question and answer.  We cannot continue this way.

 4             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, you're going too fast, and,

 6     Mr. Sejdic, unfortunately the interpretation didn't catch your last

 7     remark, so I would kindly ask you to repeat it.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am stating again, this allegation

 9     that I liquidated a Muslim or captured a mortar, I have never done any

10     such thing.  At that time, I was pulling out the dead and wounded, and

11     when I managed to pull out their dead and wounded, I was indeed praised

12     by their soldiers because I had the courage to pull them out.  Nobody

13     else had the courage.  I was the only one.

14             When a soldier got killed near Muslim trenches, nobody dared to

15     go there and get him out, and I ran to Muslim trenches, and the best I

16     could, I pulled the men out.  That's why they praised me.

17             As for this writing, they can write anything.  They are listening

18     to my testimony.  He can send this paper to him, saying that I killed 100

19     Muslim soldiers, that they had given me weapons.  If he needs this paper,

20     let him keep it.

21             I came here to tell the truth, and I'm prepared to back it with

22     my life.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   At the end, General Josipovic emphasizes that:

25             "I believe it is my duty to indicate that it is my privilege to

Page 8404

 1     have been the commander of courageous and valiant people, and I don't

 2     want anything to taint their courage."

 3             This statement was signed in Belgrade.

 4             I have here a statement of Nenad Kuzmanovic.  You know who that

 5     is?

 6        A.   Yes, I know, it's Rajko's deputy.

 7        Q.   So he was the deputy commander of your battalion?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much time do we have?  Can we

10     go through this statement?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're hardly -- you hardly

12     have any time left.  You had six minutes.  You have very little time now.

13     Let's put this last statement, show it, and ask your question.

14             Madam Usher, could you please help.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps just one fragment of

16     that statement.

17             I have a statement of Nadan Andric, Vaske's deputy, but I won't

18     have time to use it today.

19        Q.   Here in the penultimate paragraph on the first page,

20     Nenad Kuzmanovic says:

21             "In the area of Semizovac, there was also a structure called

22     Sonja --"

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] We haven't had any time to see the

24     number of the document.  Everything is going way too fast.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Document Roman numeral IV.  Roman

Page 8405

 1     numeral IV, page 1.

 2        Q.   In the area of Semizovac, there was also a structure called

 3     Sonja, which, as the official prison of the Ministry of Justice of

 4     Republika Srpska, had its own composition and organisation of which I

 5     know nothing.  In the past days, I heard and saw all sorts of untruth

 6     about who came to visit the Sonja Prison.  Among all these unbelievable

 7     stories, there is one saying that Vasilije Vidovic, whom I know

 8     personally, used to come to this prison.  I never saw him even close, and

 9     I never even heard that he had visited any prison at all."

10             Is this true, what the deputy commander of your battalion says?

11        A.   It's not true.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then I'm finished with

13     the cross-examination.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Dutertre, any

15     redirect?

16             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For how long?

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I will try to be short, as brief

19     as possible.  I need between 15 to 20 minutes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's five after

21     10.00.  We will break for 20 minutes, but let me ask the usher to escort

22     the witness out of the courtroom first.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's five after

25     10.00.  We will resume at 10.25.

Page 8406

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.05 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, you have the

 5     floor for the redirect.

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             I have four issues to address.  First, the conditions under which

 8     Mr. Sejdic came back to Semizovac from Korita.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:

10        Q.   On page 8239 [Realtime transcript read in error "8249"], line 21

11     to 24 in the transcript, I'm waiting for the French transcript --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  For the English transcript, Interpreter's

13     correction.

14             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You're saying that once in Korita, you were told, and I quote,

16     and I will move to English:

17             [In English] "... Semizovac and Sarajevo, there is a free place

18     down there, a free place down there."

19             [Interpretation] End of quote.  Let me move further.  I quote:

20             [In English] "And then my father decided that we would start out

21     towards Sarajevo because we have some family there."

22             [Interpretation] End of quote.  Later, page 8240, line 2 to 3,

23     you say, and I quote:

24             [In English] "If we wanted to go to Sarajevo, we had to go to

25     Semizovac."

Page 8407

 1             [Interpretation] End of quote.

 2             My first question is as follows:  Could you tell us whether in

 3     Korita you had a house where you could have settled and stayed?

 4        A.   Yes.  In Korita, first of all, we had the schoolhouse where we

 5     stayed as refugees, and then later they put us up in various private

 6     houses to spend the night, and then four or five days later joint guards

 7     were organised.  However, my father and I were not called upon to

 8     participate in the guard duty.

 9        Q.   I apologise if I interrupt you.  In Korita, did you own a house

10     where you could have settled?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   So you leave for Sarajevo --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecutor cannot

14     shape the answers of the witness as he pleases.  The witness wanted to

15     say something, and the Prosecutor prevented him.  The fact that they

16     didn't want to ask him and his father to participate in the village

17     guards is very important.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] On the transcript, it's already

19     been said during the examination-in-chief, and I'm not going to look into

20     this, because this is something everyone knows.

21        Q.   So you go for Sarajevo, as you told us, you leave for Sarajevo.

22     Could you give us some details as to why you finally did not go to

23     Sarajevo, but rather stayed in Semizovac that was under Serb control?

24        A.   Yes.  At that time, Mr. Nebojsa Spiric was in control of the

25     Semizovac Detachment.  He didn't let us pass through towards Sarajevo,

Page 8408

 1     because my brother had been in Territorial Defence, and when he was taken

 2     away I've never heard of him again.

 3        Q.   You anticipated slightly.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  There's a

 5     detail that just cropped up.  You are saying that your brother belonged

 6     to the Territorial Defence, and he was taken away and never seen again.

 7     Does this mean that your brother disappeared completely?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  No one has ever heard of my

 9     brother from 1992.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, this is

11     not a proper interpretation of the transcripts.  In all the statements

12     this witness has given and in the examination-in-chief, the witness said

13     his brother had been arrested as a member of the Territorial Defence

14     because he had had a weapon earlier, and he was taken to prison to Planja

15     house; that he was released from that prison, spent two days at home, and

16     then left.  The witness claimed he was arrested again.  I have

17     information that he left.  Nobody knows where.  But here the story's

18     abbreviated.  As soon as he came to Semizovac, he went missing without a

19     trace.  This is not consistent with what he said in statements and in

20     examination-in-chief.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, despite what the accused

22     has just told us, the important question for me is the following:  You

23     have never seen your brother again?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I've never seen my brother

25     again.

Page 8409

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Mr. Dutertre, please continue.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Well, this corresponds exactly to

 4     what was said during the examination-in-chief.  Contrary to what the

 5     accused is saying, it's page 8241, line 6 of the transcript.

 6        Q.   So regarding your brother and reasons why you had to stay in the

 7     area, did you ever learn about -- ever know about what happened to your

 8     brother?

 9        A.   Yes.  I learned that my brother had been in Planja House in

10     Semizovac, village of Svrake, where that prison was located.  They kept

11     around 100 people in that prison.  I emphasised that already in my first

12     statement, where this Planja House was, what it was, it was a prison,

13     and at the same time their command, the command of the Svrake Platoon.

14     They stayed there as well.  And from the day when my brother was taken to

15     that prison, I've never heard of him again, I've heard no news of him.

16             Later on, I learned that half of those people were executed,

17     killed, or taken no one knows where.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I call upon you not

19     to allow this subsequent revisiting of the statement of this witness.

20     Look at the page 4 of the statement given to the ICTY by this witness.  I

21     have no further possibility to examine.  I can only address you.

22             It says in the second paragraph of that statement on that page

23     that Spiric told the witness's family not to worry, that the brother is

24     in Sonja's Prison and he would soon be released:

25             "Soon after that, my brother was released.  I heard, when he said

Page 8410

 1     to my mother that there were a lot of prisoners there, that he was glad

 2     because of the food, and two days later my brother was to report to

 3     another prison.  That other prison was Planja's House.  He didn't want to

 4     go there, so he ran away into the mountains."

 5             So it's a completely different version.  Why is the Prosecutor

 6     trying to cover this up?  There's no doubt about this.  He was released

 7     and he was at home two days later.

 8             Later, as the witness says, he tried to escape, and he was

 9     captured in some sort of forest.  Whether he was or not, we have no

10     trace.  He could have ran away from Semizovac, and with any luck he could

11     still be alive.  He could have been close to Muslim positions.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do ask to object about this.

13             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm thanking

14     Mr. Seselj for all these comments, but he is not referring to the 92 ter

15     statement, where what the witness is saying is mentioned, and I would

16     like to continue if I may.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Sejdic, once your brother was arrested again, he was -- he

20     disappeared after that, and did this have an influence on you?  Did that

21     influence you in thinking that you should not leave Semizovac, that you

22     were not allowed to leave Semizovac?

23        A.   No, that's not the only reason.  The reason was that when my

24     brother came back home from Sonja's Prison, my brother said he was

25     supposed to go to the Planja House to prison, and the prisoners all knew

Page 8411

 1     that if they go there, they'll never get out again, because Vaske's men,

 2     Seselj's men, mercenaries, were in control there, the worst kind of

 3     people.  So he tried to escape, and that evening they caught him in the

 4     forest and they took him to Planja's House.  We know he was in

 5     Planja's House, and from then on, we know nothing of him.  He was not the

 6     only one who went missing from there.  At least 25 from the village of

 7     Svrake, and the women reported it.  Men were taken no one knows where.

 8     They were killed, and no one heard of them again.

 9        Q.   Okay, but was this an element that might have made a strong

10     impression on you and convince you that you should not leave Semizovac

11     and the area of Semizovac?

12        A.   I don't know exactly if that was the only reason, but still, in

13     view of our faith, they would have stopped us anyway, even if my brother

14     had not been in the Territorial Defence, because they stopped all of us,

15     me, my father, my brother, my uncle, everyone.  My uncle was later

16     released for exchange when there was the first exchange.  He was released

17     only because he had a wife in Sarajevo.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would not want any

19     doubt to exist after Mr. Seselj's objection.  Let me pick up on this

20     problem with your brother so that everything is clear.

21             In your written statement, which I was scrutinising, if I'm not

22     mistaken, at first your brother goes to Sonja's Prison.  Then he's

23     released and comes back home.  Two days later, your brother is supposed

24     to go to another prison, Planja's Prison.  At that moment, your brother's

25     going to try to escape through the woods.  He is captured, brought to the

Page 8412

 1     police station.  After that, he is escorted to Planja's House.  And you

 2     said that after that, you never saw him again.  This is what you're

 3     saying in your written statement.

 4             Mr. Seselj seems to be giving us another version of this, and

 5     viva voce you told us that you never saw your brother again.  Is this the

 6     chronology of events, starting with the disappearance of your brother?

 7     He was first released, came home, knew that he was supposed to go back to

 8     jail, escaped, was arrested, captured, sent to the police, and then sent

 9     to Planja's House, and then after which you never saw him again?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Judge.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I insisted on this fact because

12     in the indictment and the pre-trial brief, paragraph 103, there is

13     mention of Planja's House, where, in the detention centres, the prisoners

14     were beaten, raped and killed.  This is written in the indictment.

15             Now, you are telling us that your brother was in detention in

16     Planja's House.

17             Mr. Dutertre, proceed.

18             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Second point.  It will be very

19     quick, because we've been through it over and over again, but there is

20     still ambiguity.  It's the problem of the salary, the wages.  Page 8241

21     in the transcript, the accused is telling you, and I quote:

22             [In English] "You were given a certain sum of money which wasn't

23     a large sum of money by way of salary, and every month you would get food

24     issued to you; isn't that right?"

25             [Interpretation] That was the question, and your answer was:

Page 8413

 1     "Yes."  This is a compound question, so I don't really understand what

 2     this "yes" referred to.  When you say "yes," did you mean, "Yes, I was

 3     given a salary," or are you saying, "Yes, I was given food," or do you

 4     mean, "Yes, I got both the food and salary"?

 5        A.   I was only receiving my ration, enough to eat.  That was a ration

 6     for my whole family.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I now move to my third point, and there will be only

 8     one left.

 9             Page 8245 in the transcript, we saw a document which seemingly

10     had been signed in 1994.  I'm saying "seemingly" because there's no

11     specific indication as to when you actually signed this document.  This

12     being said, in this document it says that -- retroactively, that you had

13     been a member of the Army of Republika Srpska since 1992, and the

14     document --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This cannot be called back-dated or

16     retroactive.  It says he was a member from to.  There's nothing

17     retroactive about it.  This certificate was needed in order to regulate

18     some sort of entitlement, and that's why he was issued the certificate

19     saying he was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska from such a date

20     to such a date.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The comment is on the

22     transcript, but I'm interested in the question and the answer, so please

23     wait for the Prosecutor to put his question.

24             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This document has been delivered,

25     so you can have your entitlements, your compensation.  I have a couple of

Page 8414

 1     questions regarding this.

 2        Q.   1992, you -- let me say first that you are a Muslim, you are of

 3     Roma ethnicity.  During the attack on Svrake, your brother fought with

 4     the Muslims.  You saw this brother for the last time and sent to Planja.

 5     So why is it that you would voluntarily join the Serb forces?  What would

 6     be the point in doing that for you, in 1992?

 7        A.   I did not mean that I joined voluntary, because when my brother

 8     was taken away, it was their strategy towards us.  My brother was on the

 9     Muslim side, and he defended that village.  My father and I were not

10     issued with any weapons.  When the Muslims distributed weapons, we did

11     not get any.  So they did it because of my brother, and that they

12     persecuted us from 1992 onwards, they put us on that list, that we were

13     there.  I don't know about anything else.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Again, the Prosecution

16     is trying to cover up a very important thing.  Here before you, in

17     re-examination, the witness said as soon as they returned from Korita to

18     Svrake or Semizovac, his brother was arrested, taken away, and he was

19     never seen again.  And then later, after my objection, when you asked

20     him, he confirmed his statement that his brother was released after two

21     days, then arrested in the forest after trying to escape.  He couldn't

22     have seen how he was arrested in the forest.

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'm no longer on this issue.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your objection is totally out

25     of focus.  You wanted to establish the fact that the witness was a member

Page 8415

 1     of the Republika Srpska.  That was your point, obviously.  This is what

 2     you were trying to elicit.

 3             The Prosecutor is asking him a question during the redirect.  He

 4     is quoting the question you asked, and he is asking him what could be his

 5     reasons to join the Army of Republika Srpska, given that his brother had

 6     fought on the Muslim side, he'd been arrested, detained and so forth.

 7     This is the question put to the witness by Mr. Dutertre.  We would like

 8     to hear the witness's answer, because this might be important.

 9             Witness, the Prosecutor asked a question.  Could you please

10     answer this question.  If you don't remember the question, Mr. Dutertre

11     will rephrase the question.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I will reformulate it, maybe

13     in a more simple fashion.

14        Q.   In 1992, did you sign a document proving that you were freely

15     joining the Serb forces?

16        A.   No, I did not voluntarily join the Serb forces, nor would I have

17     ever done that voluntarily.

18        Q.   Very well.  From 1992 to 1994, you said that you were part of the

19     work platoon.  You said that as a member of this work platoon, you were

20     sent to the frontlines.  You had to dig trenches.  You had to carry

21     weapons for the soldiers.  And you were also used as a human shield, so

22     you were just as exposed as any soldier would be.

23             Here's my question:  Given these conditions, given the fact that

24     you were exposed just like a soldier would be, why is it that from 1992

25     to 1994, you would voluntarily decide to join the work platoon rather

Page 8416

 1     than join a combat unit, where at least you would have been issued a

 2     rifle to fight for your life?

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, have you understood

 4     the question?  I have had a hard time following.

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I agree this was a complex

 6     question.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, please

 8     reformulate your question and make it simpler.  You would need to be a

 9     Nobel Prize of literature to understand the question.

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Maybe not a Nobel Prize, but it is

11     an important question, so I will reformulate it.

12        Q.   If you had been given a choice, Witness, in 1992 to 1994, rather

13     than being on the work platoon, where you were exposed on the frontline

14     with no weapon whatsoever to defend yourself, or joining a combat unit

15     where you would have been issued weapons, what would you have chosen had

16     you been given the choice?

17        A.   I would have chosen the labour platoon.

18        Q.   In 1994, when you signed this document, what was your frame of

19     mind?  Why did you sign this document which I mentioned earlier, a

20     document which is -- which entitles you to some compensation and

21     benefits?  Why did you sign the document?

22        A.   They forced me to sign their document to make me seem like a

23     member of their unit.  They needed a signature.  What they wrote later, I

24     don't know.  I know that we had to sign that we were loyal, together with

25     our families, those of us who stayed, because there was no one but us.

Page 8417

 1     After signing that so-called loyalty in 1994-1995, Rajko Jankovic put me

 2     in his group because I was always at his beck and call.  I carried his

 3     weapon, I pulled out his dead and wounded, I dug.  I was active, I was a

 4     strong man, able-bodied, and that's why he took me to work for him.  It's

 5     not what I wanted.  And they kept these signatures.  If anything went

 6     wrong, they wanted to show it in court or somewhere, that I voluntarily

 7     took up their arms to voluntarily join their paramilitary unit allegedly

 8     to protect my family or something.  I think it is in my statement.  I

 9     said that at the outset.  Those who stayed loyal to them, they kind of

10     protected them because they had killed everyone else.  Everyone that

11     remained alive were put in work platoons.

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

13     witness, of course.

14             Witness, at the end of the war, did the commander of the unit in

15     which you worked in the labour platoon, did this person propose -- did

16     the people who made you sign this statement that the Prosecutor just

17     mentioned, did these people, the commander or the authorities, did they

18     ask you whether you wanted to move to the territory of Republika Srpska

19     or even move to Serbia?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They used to tell me, this

21     commander, Rajko Jankovic, and others to accept, to be loyal to them, in

22     order to be able to stay with my family like they did.  They told me,

23     "Whether you accept or not, you can't return to Sarajevo to be with your

24     own people.  Either you're going to get killed here or we are going to

25     kill you."  That was the only choice.

Page 8418

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Last question on this issue, and

 4     then I'll move to my final point.

 5        Q.   In this conflict, what was your objective?  Was it to fight

 6     against the Muslims, was it to survive with your family, was it to become

 7     a hero?  What was your objective?

 8        A.   Nothing was on my mind.  I just wanted my family to survive and

 9     for myself to survive.  Had they told me to do anything, I would have had

10     to do it when they demanded that.  They always made threats vis a vis my

11     family, saying that they would slaughter my son and daughter, rape my

12     wife, so I'd have to agree to anything they'd tell me to do, because I

13     could not watch with my very own eyes what they would do to my wife and

14     my family.

15        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  I will now move to my final point.

16             The visit made by Mr. Seselj to the Crna Rijeka Plateau, a visit

17     which you have mentioned, could you tell us how long -- how long did the

18     combat go on at that plateau?  Was it for a couple days, a couple months?

19     Can you tell us how long they went on for?

20        A.   As for the Crna Rijeka Plateau, when the offensive just started

21     there, for two or three hours they were attacking that village.  When

22     they took the village, they went further on to the village of Olovo.

23     Along the frontline, they went to the village of Olovo; that is to say,

24     that they'd be there for months.  That is where the frontline was, and

25     they maintained it that way.  While this line was being attacked, it was

Page 8419

 1     something that went on for three or four hours, this offensive.  They did

 2     whatever they wanted to.  That's the way it was at the time.

 3        Q.   Could you tell us whether, when you made written statements to

 4     the local authorities and whether in your first statements made to the

 5     OTP and to the Tribunal investigators, could you tell us whether you were

 6     questioned about Mr. Seselj or not, whether there was focus on

 7     Mr. Seselj, "yes" or "no," during these early statements that you made?

 8        A.   No, no, they didn't ask me about Mr. Seselj then.  I made my

 9     statement here, and I said what I said.  When I came here, I didn't know

10     what the objective was, who I would testify against.  Just before I was

11     about to leave, I was told that I would be testifying against Mr. Seselj.

12     I remembered then that I saw him at the Crna Rijeka Plateau, and I said

13     that in my statement.

14             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no other

15     questions, Mr. President.  However, I have some information to give you,

16     if you find it useful, for the two MFI exhibits that I was going to

17     tender -- try to tender.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us what

19     it is?

20             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The first document was a list of

21     houses in Svrake, empty and unoccupied houses.  It's document P463, MFI.

22     This document is part of what we call the integration collection.  Those

23     are documents collected by AID in the Sarajevo sector, after having been

24     handed over in 1996 by the authorities of Republika Srpska.  According to

25     AID, this document would have been received from the General Staff,

Page 8420

 1     Army Security Service -- Security Service of the Army of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the OTP members collected -- went to the AID

 3     premises to get these documents.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecutor is not

 5     resolving the problem of the authenticity of the document in this way at

 6     all.  The re-examination is over, and this is now a procedural debate on

 7     the acceptability or non-acceptability of some documents.  I challenge

 8     the documents because there is no signature, stamp, letterhead, nothing.

 9     And now, as an argument to prove authenticity, the Prosecutor refers to

10     the AID.  Well, that is the core of the matter.  The AID instrumentalizes

11     witnesses who appear in The Hague Tribunal in different trials.  They

12     falsify documents and so on.  They are very involved in this.  They

13     cannot be proof of authenticity.  The document either has a signature or

14     not, it either has a stamp or not, it either has a registration number or

15     not.  If we are going to refer to AID, then you can immediately find

16     evidence for anything you want to prove here.  In 15 minutes' time, the

17     AID will type that up, write it up.  They can even make the documents

18     look older.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's as far as

20     the first document goes.

21             The second document.

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted very

23     candidly to give the background regarding this evidence.  I cannot be

24     reproached for that, knowing that the witness gave us some explanation of

25     the document tells who were the -- which were the people who were in the

Page 8421

 1     premises, and so on and so forth.  So now it's a matter of weight, as far

 2     as I go.

 3             Now, regarding the second document, considering the list of

 4     prisoners, P464 MFI, this document was seized by the OTP in July 2003 in

 5     the archives of the prison KPD Butmir, or better known as the

 6     Kula Prison, and more precisely this document was seized out of a green

 7     folder called Daily Bulletin of the Vogosca Prison for July and August

 8     1992.  So, Prison of Vogosca, July and August of 1992.  And you'll

 9     remember that at the very end of this document, they were making

10     reference to other documents.  You put -- you were wondering whether we

11     had it or not.  The only document that I was able to find so far was a

12     document that regards a list of prisoners.  They have it in e-court.  I

13     have hard copies, if you wish to get them.

14             Now, as far as the other documents, I don't know if they were --

15     as far as the others, I don't know if they were missing in the prison or

16     other people collected these documents.  I have no additional information

17     on that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Mr. Seselj, on the second document, do you have any comments to

20     make?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't seen that document

22     yet in e-court.  I have to see what this is all about.

23             Secondly, let the OTP tell me whether I've already received this

24     document and when, because I cannot remember all the documents that I've

25     received.  I've already received hundreds of thousands of pages of

Page 8422

 1     documents.  And then when the Prosecution replies to that question of

 2     mine, then I'm going to put forth my objection.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document, when

 4     was it given to Mr. Seselj?

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It was on the exhibit list I don't

 6     know when.  Probably pursuant to 66(B).  But, anyhow, this document is on

 7     the exhibit list.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document was

 9     on the 65 ter list documents.

10             Mr. Seselj, do you have any points?  Do you challenge anything

11     about this document?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Taking prisoners out to the

13     frontline, exposing them to risks, and we see here that one person was

14     wounded, that is a crime, and I do not challenge the fact that it is a

15     crime.  However, there is no proof of this document being authentic.

16     There is no signature, there is no stamp, there is no registration

17     number.  And what I think of straight away is the AID wrote this up

18     themselves.  They had an original document as a template, so to speak,

19     and then they just changed a few words, and that is always my suspicion

20     as far as these documents are concerned.

21             Secondly, there is also the question of relevancy, because the

22     prison warden is under the Ministry of Justice.  The OTP takes a

23     statement from the then Minister of Justice, submits it to me.  They

24     haven't called him as a witness yet.  What do I have to do with that

25     Minister of Justice, and what do I have to do with the system of

Page 8423

 1     prisoners?  So it's the question of relevancy.  If the then Minister of

 2     Justice is not held accountable for this but if they plan to use his

 3     statement against me in any way, I think from the point of procedure,

 4     this is practically an unresolvable problem.

 5             Secondly, perhaps all of this is correct, but then it raises the

 6     question of the responsibility of the person who took the prisoners out

 7     to the frontline to do work.  That is prohibited by the International Law

 8     of War.  It is not prohibited to take members of the work platoon to work

 9     on the frontline, because they are within the system of national defence.

10     Taking prisoners out, that is a crime punishable by law.

11             Who is this being ascribed to?  Myself, personally, the Serb

12     Radical Party, our volunteers?  Who?  Who is being charged with this

13     crime, if this crime ever took place?  First of all, what happened, and

14     secondly, who is responsible?  Who is immediately responsible, who is

15     responsible at the next degree of responsibility from the point of view

16     of hierarchy, and last but not least, thirdly, what does this have to do

17     with me?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Your comments are

19     noted in the transcript.  The Trial Chamber will deliberate on it and

20     will render a decision.

21             Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

22             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] At page 42, line 7, one point.  I

23     mention the transcript page, but there is a mistake.  I mention

24     page 8239, page 42, line 7, and not 72.  Page 42, line 7, we should read

25     page of the transcript -- transcript pages 8249.

Page 8424

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this

 2     correction.

 3             On my name and on behalf of my fellow Judges, I thank you very

 4     much for coming to testify before this Tribunal.  I wish you a safe

 5     journey back home, and I will ask Madam Usher to escort you out of this

 6     courtroom.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In advance, thank you

 8     very much to all of you.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Still one problem.  It's not 8249

11     but 8239 on the transcript.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

13             Let's now move into private session.  The next witness has

14     protective measures.

15             Madam Registrar, actually, I would like to ask you for a closed

16     session.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While the blinds are going down,

18     have you admitted this document into evidence or not?  I didn't quite

19     understand.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Both documents are going to be

21     the subject of a deliberation.  They are not admitted yet.  We have to

22     deliberate on this, and we will render a decision.  They are not admitted

23     into evidence yet.

24                           [Closed session]

25   (redacted)

Page 8425











11 Pages 8425-8466 redacted. Closed session.















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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day

12                           of June, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.