Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9345

 1                           Tuesday, 15 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.32 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is an open

 7     session.  Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Welcome to everyone.  I greet

11     our witness.  I greet the representatives of the OTP.  I greet Mr. Seselj

12     as well as everyone helping us.  We will now quickly move into private

13     session, Mr. Registrar, please.

14                           [Closed session]

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Page 9345











11 Pages 9346-9388 redacted. Closed session.















Page 9389

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21                           [Open session]

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, as Ms. Biersay explained while we

23     were in closed session, we have -- oh.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

Page 9390

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We are back in open

 2     session, so I would like to say that the Prosecution will present some

 3     audio material and the Prosecution will tell us how it is going to be

 4     presented.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, as Ms. Biersay explained, the

 6     intercepts we will be playing today are divided into four categories.  I

 7     will not repeat them, but we will explain what the four categories are as

 8     we move through them.  Your Honours, the first category of intercepts,

 9     which is composed our selection today is composed of four intercepts is

10     relevant to the issue of the JCE and the shared purpose among a number of

11     Serb leaders and people mentioned in the indictment, to create a

12     Serb-controlled area in Bosnia-Herzegovina in case Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     could not remain within Yugoslavia.

14             The intercepts will also be relevant to the issue of what the

15     Prosecution submits that is a decision to expel non-Serbs from these

16     areas.

17             The first intercept is of a conversation on the 12th of October

18     1991.  The speakers are -- well, we will let the speakers identify it if

19     needed by the witness but the speakers are Radovan Karadzic and Gojko

20     Djogo.  Your Honours will hear references to the consequences of a

21     decision by the Muslim side to declare independence and it is being

22     forecast that that would lead to bloodshed and the disappearance of

23     Muslims from the face of the earth.  You would also hear --

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] I did not hear the name of

25     Karadzic's alleged interlocutor.  The interpreter could not hear it

Page 9391

 1     properly either.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, could you please give us

 3     the name of the second person speaking?

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Djogo, Gojko.  Your Honours will also hear

 5     reference to the accused, and that Mr. Milosevic, President Milosevic,

 6     has decided to have an alliance with him so this confirms from the

 7     Prosecution submission is relevant to the issue of whether or not there

 8     was a shared purpose between the accused and President Milosevic.  And,

 9     yeah, I think that might be enough just to explain the relevance.  So if

10     we could now play Exhibit 65 ter number 572, and I propose that we listen

11     to the first nine minutes and eight seconds of this.  The full intercept

12     is 21 minutes and 46 seconds long.  Let's play it.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  In which binder is it?

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I believe that's in binder 1, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again I'm objecting I'm absolutely

16     opposed to having only part of the recording heard because the other part

17     may always contain an explanation of what was stated during the first

18     part, if the recording is authentic, which is something I also doubt.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Sorry, Your Honours, the intercept is in binder

20     2, I apologise.  As to the accused's submission, the Prosecution has of

21     course made an effort to present this evidence in a fair manner, and we

22     have not tried to cut out relevant information from any of the intercepts

23     we play, and I will respectfully submit that the accused can either read

24     the transcripts of these intercepts or listen to the intercept himself

25     later on and make written submissions if he has objections based on that

Page 9392

 1     but for the purpose of the Prosecution case, all we would need to play is

 2     the first nine minutes and eight seconds.  And if Your Honours agree, I

 3     would propose we play the intercept now.

 4                           [Intercept played]

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the interpreters are trying to

 6     translate or read the subtitles, but they are not being put into the

 7     transcript.  I was going to seek Your Honours' guidance on this.  Last

 8     week we did not, I believe, have the translators translate the audios and

 9     we didn't have any transcript of it.  Of course, the transcript would be

10     separate exhibits.  My proposal would be that we do as last week that we

11     just listen to the tape and then admit transcripts.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, what we should do is the

13     following:  Let's listen to the conversation.  We have the transcript on

14     the screen so we can read it.  And if there is something very important,

15     we can play it again and we can ask the interpreters to interpret

16     directly.

17             So let's start from the beginning.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Okay.  So let's play it again.

19                           [Intercept played]

20              MR. MARCUSSEN:  Could we stop?  Your Honours, at this stage, I

21     would seek the admission of 65 ter number 572.  Sorry, maybe I should do

22     that after the accused has had a chance to comment.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I would like to rewind to

24     five minutes when the tape says, five minutes.  I would like to hear in

25     translation what is said when Mr. Seselj's is mentioned.  So could we

Page 9393

 1     please rewind to five minutes and some seconds?  And I would like the

 2     interpreters could please translate what they are hearing in Serbian.

 3                           [Intercept played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Yes that would be his enormous

 5     strength if you understand, yes, enormous strength in the opposition

 6     because he does not have a candidate opposing him in the opposition, yes,

 7     yes, and now he relies on that option of Seselj's, this and that, but

 8     which could cost him dearly.  Yes, not too seriously, that is not your

 9     SDS, that is not it, yes, and this cannot -- well, get burned again, yes,

10     yes, I don't know but I think that France is terribly afraid of Germany

11     and that it is prostituting itself, yes, and it's only England that is

12     not prostituting itself and that is our only chance and Spain and Greece,

13     well it's all American.  All this is well --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this is not exactly

15     conducive to interpretation, overlapping speakers, very fast, and you can

16     barely hear it.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I asked for this excerpt to be

18     played again where Mr. Seselj is mentioned.  It seems that the two people

19     are talking about a political option, one of Seselj's option, and they

20     say that this could have a boomerang effect.  We can infer from this that

21     the people holding the conversation do not share Seselj's opinion.  At

22     least when listening to their conversation.

23             Mr. Seselj, do you have any comments to make?  Please spare us

24     any speeches but could you please comment, do you have any technical

25     comments to make, or anything to say regarding yourself since you're

Page 9394

 1     mentioned in this conversation?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in a way, you are

 3     disqualifying me morally in advance, Mr. President.  You're saying don't

 4     make speeches.  As if I were making speeches all the time, whereas I

 5     never had any speeches made in this courtroom, although the Prosecutor

 6     tendentiously accused me of things like that.  First of all I'm

 7     challenging the legality of this intercept, this recording, because the

 8     wiretapping was carried out in an anti-constitutional way without a

 9     warrant and a warrant is required by the constitution of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in force then.

11             Obviously, the conversation was wire tapped by an illegal

12     conspiracy organisation.

13             Secondly, I doubt the authenticity of the conversation, and I

14     support this by the unequal tone of the recording.  The sound spectrum

15     would have to be tested to see whether this is coherent, authentic.

16             Thirdly, most importantly, the alleged conversation, I mean with

17     all these suspicions of mine regarding authenticity, the alleged

18     conversation is taking place purportedly between Radovan Karadzic and

19     Gojko Djogo.  At that time Gojko Djogo was a high official of the

20     democratic party who is president was Dragoljub Micunovic later on Zoran

21     Djindjic.  The Serb Radical Party throughout 1991 was in a clash with the

22     democratic party.  I'm making a comment because the Prosecutor is

23     presenting this as evidence of joint criminal enterprise.  Please --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, wait a minute.

25     Mr. Marcussen took the floor, and we didn't even hear his objection.

Page 9395

 1     Mr. Marcussen, you have the floor.

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Mr. President, the accused has now moved from

 3     authenticity provenance and technical issues with respect to the

 4     recording to testify about the different persons and events that are

 5     being mentioned in the tape.  So he is now started to testify.  So we

 6     respectfully submit that the accused should be directed to confine his

 7     comments to the issues that you had just outlined to him a few minutes

 8     ago.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, I told you not

10     to make speeches or comments.  You recall the grounds on which you oppose

11     this recording being admitted.  You can say in a few second that

12     Mr. Gojko Djogo was a high official of the political party to which the

13     late Zoran Djindjic belonged and later headed actually.  That's enough.

14     Cut it short, please.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, in a couple of

16     seconds, I cannot say anything and I truly admire people who can.

17     Secondly, as for this alleged intercept, the Prosecutor is proffering it

18     as evidence of the existence of joint criminal enterprise.  Between and

19     among who?  Radovan Karadzic, the president of the Serb Democratic Party

20     of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Gojko Djogo, a high official, I think the

21     vice-president, of the democratic party in Serbia.  Please, if I do not

22     have the right to say that here, then I'm not going to make any comments

23     whatsoever.  And don't even call me into the courtroom.  Just mail your

24     judgement to me and let's get there comedy done and over with.

25             If I cannot say who these persons are and that at that point in

Page 9396

 1     time, the relevant point in time, I have nothing to do with these persons

 2     whatsoever and that these persons have no relevant ties to Milosevic, as

 3     a matter of fact, how can I come up with counter-arguments with regard to

 4     the thesis of the OTP that there is a joint criminal enterprise?  There

 5     is a joint criminal enterprise at that time between Radovan Karadzic and

 6     Dragoljub Micunovic, the president of the democratic party in Serbia so

 7     why am I not allowed to say that here and now?

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are talking

 9     about your case.  Fine.  We'll hear your case.  But not now.  You will --

10     during the cross-examination, you have plenty of time.  You will also

11     have plenty of time during the examination-in-chief when you ask

12     questions to your witnesses, to expound your case, as well as in your

13     brief, your final brief.  You can develop your case on everything

14     presented, even the intercepted conversation.  But you are not allowed to

15     testify now.  You can also testify at a later stage.  You are not

16     entitled to do so right now.  We are not preventing you from presenting

17     your case.  Of course, not.  But you must use the rules of procedure to

18     do so.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, my fellow

20     judge is absolutely right.  I'll give you the floor in a second.  But let

21     me supplement what I wanted to say.  My fellow judge justly said that if

22     you wish to highlight the fact that this Gojko Djogo was working hand in

23     hand with Karadzic in a goal that was different than the goal alleged by

24     Prosecution, you will have plenty of time and plenty opportunities to do

25     so.  Be it when you will testify, for example.  The day you actually

Page 9397

 1     testify, you'll have plenty of time to talk about this.

 2             But we have a difficulty which is as follows:  I cannot rule and

 3     govern what is happening according to the former Article 314 of the

 4     Criminal Code that was in place in former Yugoslavia.  I'm no longer in

 5     the lead.  It's the Prosecutor and yourself that are leading.  If I was

 6     in charge, I would be dealing with this now.  But it's not the time now.

 7     I will -- I'm sure I will ask questions about this when you testify

 8     because I'll be allowed to ask questions then.  Because if you're telling

 9     me all this now, and I start asking questions where you have a right to

10     remain silent and you can remain silent if you wish to, I could

11     jeopardise my own situation in relation to the rules of procedure.  My

12     fellow judge was very clear:  There are rules to this trial and people

13     are allowed to take the floor at different moments.  Right now, we are

14     technically assessing a wire tap.  You have some -- you have the floor to

15     tell us why you oppose it, you have a few words to tell us if you have

16     reservations as to this conversation because this Gojko Djogo was this or

17     that but you cannot go any further right now.

18             Mr. Seselj, you wanted to supplement what I said?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have the right to object to the

20     relevance of this evidence that's been proffered.  In my objection, I

21     claim that this evidence is irrelevant and I base that on the fact that

22     the alleged conversation, because I'm challenging the authenticity, takes

23     place between Radovan Karadzic, the president of the Serb Democratic

24     Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Gojko Djogo, a high official of the

25     democratic party in Serbia, from which no one has been involved in any

Page 9398

 1     joint criminal enterprise in any one of these trials.  No allegations

 2     were made to that effect.

 3             If Gojko Djogo were accused along with Radovan Karadzic and

 4     myself then I would understand why the Prosecutor is offering this.

 5     Since Dragoljub Micunovic the then president of the democratic party was

 6     not included as a member of a joint criminal enterprise, I think this is

 7     irrelevant.

 8             Secondly, the Prosecutor is not offering any explanation as to

 9     what kind of Seselj option this is that Gojko Djogo refers to, and I have

10     no idea what this is all about.

11             Thirdly, I think that you brought me into a very difficult

12     position on purpose, in a premeditated way.  The listening of these

13     intercepts had to take place during the direct examination and then in

14     the cross-examination I would ask the witness, "Mr. So-and-so, do you

15     know that Gojko Djogo was a high official of Micunovic's democratic

16     party?  That he had such a position in this political party and then so

17     on and so forth."  Then all of that would make sense.  You think all of

18     my substantive objections should be left for my Defence case then what is

19     my role here in the first place?

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move back to

21     private session for a few seconds.

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, maybe I can solve this issue by

23     clarifying what the purpose of playing there intercept is.

24             Your Honours, this intercept is probative of the views expressed

25     by Radovan Karadzic.  As I said in the beginning, it shows knowledge of a

Page 9399

 1     plan that there would be bloodshed if the Muslim side took certain steps.

 2     We are offering this to show the existence of a plan in which we say

 3     Radovan Karadzic was a member and it's relevant to his intent and we

 4     submit ultimately, when we have the totality of the evidence, we would be

 5     submitting that the views expressed by him, Milosevic, the accused, based

 6     on a number of documents and testimony before Your Honours, that they

 7     share a common purpose and were part of a joint criminal enterprise.  We

 8     are not alleging that the other speaker on this tape is part of that

 9     enterprise but that does not render the evidence irrelevant and I take

10     note of the accused's objection but we are simply putting this forward to

11     illustrate what the views of Radovan Karadzic is.  I hope that clarified

12     matters and then maybe we don't need to go into these issues.  We simply

13     don't --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's not open a debate on

16     this.  We will move briefly into private session, please.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9400











11 Page 9400 redacted. Private session.















Page 9401

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, could we move back into

 4     open session, please, Mr. Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I consider that this alleged

 7     intercept cannot be relevant as an exhibit of the OTP inter alia because

 8     it's evident that the alleged collocutors, if they really are Karadzic

 9     and Djogo, speak about me in negative terms.  They express themselves as

10     my political opponents, and they say that my political option, they are

11     referring to the Serbian Radical Party is neither comprehensive nor

12     serious and they compare it to the Serbian Democratic Party; and Djogo

13     allegedly says to Karadzic it's not the same as your Serbian Democratic

14     Party so he's pointing to essential differences between the Serb Radical

15     Party and the Serb Democratic Party.  And both of them here are

16     manifesting themselves as Milosevic's opponents.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen?

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, these are matters for final

19     submissions.  This is not addressing relevance.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please give us a

22     number for this tape.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P502.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Just so the information is close together in the

25     transcript the 65 ter number was 572.

Page 9402

 1             Your Honours, the next intercept that we would play is 65 ter

 2     number 606.  It is found in binder 2 of your materials.  This intercept

 3     is also relevant to the existence of the JCE.  It is between

 4     President Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic.  And I would particularly

 5     mention two aspects of this intercept that we submit are of interest

 6     to -- or maybe three aspects that are of interest to Your Honours.  At

 7     the beginning of the tape, you would hear reference to the fact that the

 8     Radovan Karadzic saying that they, meaning --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The Prosecutor cannot

10     explain to us in advance what we are going to hear.  Let him play the

11     tape and then we will see what we will hear.  He cannot suggest us in

12     advance what we are going to hear.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Marcussen?  Maybe it

14     would be best to hear the tape first and if there are any comments to

15     make you can make them afterwards.  I think it would be best to hear the

16     tape first.  Otherwise you're going to precondition our hearing, if I

17     could say so.  But, please tell us when this conversation was tapped and

18     when it was held.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  24th of October 1991, Your Honours.  To explain

20     if I just may without quoting from the transcript, the relevance is --

21     it's relevant to whether or not there existed a plan to create Serb-held

22     areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the issue of whether or not the Serbs

23     had a plan to take over control in a number of municipalities.

24             Let's play the intercept now, please.  And it's 11 minutes and 48

25     seconds long.

Page 9403

 1                           [Intercept played]

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I think we have to stop a brief minute.  There

 3     seemed to be no subtitles rolling up.  We'll try to play it again and see

 4     if it's just a technical issue that's going to fix itself.

 5                           [Intercept played]

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Let's stop again.  Your Honours, there seemed to

 7     be a problem here with the subtitles.  We don't have subtitles.  Now this

 8     presents us with the question of whether or not we should play the tape

 9     so that the B/C/S speakers, notably the accused, can hear what's being

10     said and the rest of us will rely on the transcripts that we have in

11     front of us, or whether or not we should ask the interpreters could try,

12     although we know it's difficult for them, to try to interpret as we move

13     through.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The subtitles, do you have it

15     some place?  Is it just a technical hitch?

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I will try to find out.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, we are trying to see if we can

19     solve that straight away.  Otherwise we can maybe push this particular

20     intercept to later on today while we have time to try to find it.  There

21     should be a synchronised version where we have the transcript.

22             Your Honours, I think we should try our luck with the next one

23     and hope we can get this fixed and then pick up this particular intercept

24     later on.

25             So what we will play instead is the intercept which has 65 ter

Page 9404

 1     number 977.  It is a conversation that takes place on the 13th of

 2     February, 2002, between Radovan Karadzic and a Lukic, first name unknown.

 3             This is again an intercept which is relevant to the issue of what

 4     the Prosecution submit is the alleged goal of creating a Greater Serbia.

 5             I propose that we play the whole intercept, which is six and a

 6     half minutes long.

 7                           [Intercept played]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen could we please

 9     rewind to 2 minutes?  At one point of time there is mention of Greater

10     Serbia, and I would like to hear this passage again.  We can check the

11     translation also.

12                           [Interpret played]

13             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

14             "However, we cannot give away.  We have given away as much as we

15     could.  The optimum for us is Greater Serbia if not, then federal

16     Yugoslavia, if not there is nothing but this and there can be no further

17     giving away.  When you look at this map --"

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Could we listen to it

19     once again?  I believe that what is said is extremely important.  Back to

20     120 seconds, please.

21                           [Intercept played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] To achieve success.  However we

23     cannot give way.  We've given way as much as we could.  The optimum for

24     us is Greater Serbia, if not then federal Yugoslavia, if not then there

25     is nothing but this, there can be no further giving way.  When you look

Page 9405

 1     at the map we can go for this, two cantons, ten kilometres we lack only

 2     one village to have it all in one piece, if only there was ten kilometres

 3     less then we could have it all in one piece."

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             In this sentence, it says, "The optimum for us is Greater Serbia.

 6     If not, then federal Yugoslavia.  If not, then what is under way."  This

 7     is important.  What did you want to add, Mr. Marcussen?

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, Your Honours, maybe we can leave it at this.

 9     The main issue here is Karadzic expressing what we submit is a views that

10     are relevant to the existence of the JCE.  I don't think I need to spend

11     more time on that.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, any

13     comments on the authenticity of the tape as well as its relevance?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I consider that this was illegally

15     and unconstitutionally taped.  I doubts the authenticity.  I think there

16     have been interventions.  I think it's been doctored according to the

17     wishes of the person who commissioned.  They have at their disposal the

18     most up-to-date technical equipment, and they can doctor the tapes.  I

19     think it's totally irrelevant because Karadzic never was in favour of

20     Greater Serbia.  He may have mentioned this somewhere while chatting with

21     someone but that doesn't prove anything.  It proves absolutely nothing,

22     because thousands and millions of people could have mentioned Greater

23     Serbia in a chat as a kind of ideal, but it was never a plan espoused

24     either by Milosevic or Karadzic or anybody else.

25             The OTP is now grasping at a detail as if clutching at straws.

Page 9406

 1     This is not testimony.  This is concerning relevance.  I'm objecting to

 2     the relevance.  If a politician never said this in public, or secretly at

 3     an official meeting of his party or a state organ, if he mentioned this

 4     in passing, as an optimum in a chat, what does that mean?  Nothing.  It

 5     doesn't demonstrate the existence of a joint criminal enterprise and

 6     especially as we don't know who he's talking to, a Lukic, what Lukic?

 7     Nobody knows.  If you take as evidence a conversation with an unknown

 8     person, then you can try me for raping an unknown girl.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Registrar, could we

10     please move into private session for a few seconds?  It's going to be

11     very short.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9407

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Yes?

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I would respectfully request the admission of 65

25     ter number 977 which is the intercept we just heard.

Page 9408

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we please get a

 2     number?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P503.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I don't know if we have -- well, I

 5     think we have time if Your Honours want to play the relevant parts of the

 6     next exhibit before the break but we are getting close, so I wanted to

 7     get Your Honours' guidance on this before --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's better to take a break now

 9     and then we'll continue after the break.

10             We'll take a 20-minute break now.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

14     Mr. Marcussen, you have the floor for the third tape.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The technical problem

16     with 65 ter number 606 has been resolved.  I introduced that exhibit

17     already.  So in the interests of time, I propose that we just listen to

18     it now.

19                           [Intercept played, no sound]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we don't have the sound

21     but we have the text.

22                           [Intercept played]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We've already --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

25                           [Intercept played]

Page 9409

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Marcussen?

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, if I may, I think that it is clear

 4     that the accused has two objections to all the intercepts so maybe we can

 5     just take note of those two objections.  One is the legality because

 6     there is no court order allowing the intercept and the second one is he's

 7     objecting to the authenticity to all of the intercepts.  So it's just

 8     going to propose in the interests of time that he address other issues

 9     and the Court takes notice of these two other objections as being

10     objections to all these intercepts that we play today.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Very well.  So

12     Mr. Seselj, you don't have repeat each time every objection as to the

13     illegal character of these intercepts and so on and so forth.  It's

14     perhaps better to focus on relevance.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not opposed to you

16     acknowledging that I consider all these conversations to have been wire

17     tapped in an anti-constitutional way by an illegal and conspiratorial

18     organisation and that I challenge the authenticity.  There is no need for

19     me to repeat all of that.  It goes without saying that I object to all of

20     that.  So I would just deal with the relevance of the proffered evidence

21     on the assumption that they are authentic.  I challenge this recording

22     even if it were authentic as irrelevant to this case because why would

23     the two most prominent Serb politicians of the 1990s not speak on the

24     telephone?  What is particularly important is that Karadzic and Milosevic

25     here do not agree on the strategic steps that Karadzic is planning as the

Page 9410

 1     leader of the Serb Democratic Party.  It has to do with convening the

 2     assembly of the Serb deputies from the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3             Throughout this conversation, Milosevic is opposed to it.  That

 4     is obvious.  Therefore, this cannot be evidence of the existence of a

 5     joint criminal enterprise even among them, let alone me.  No one can

 6     explain where my place is in all of this.  I am no where to be found here

 7     and I'm so sorry that I'm no where to be found here.

 8             Now I would like us to make a contribution to that effect.  Let

 9     us incorporate some more stuff in this conversation and lets me appear as

10     well.  Science has advanced so far that I can indeed become the third

11     interlocutor in this conversation between Karadzic and Milosevic.  I

12     accept that for you in advance.  But just in order to be incorporated.

13     I'm no where to be found.  I'm desperate because I'm no where to be

14     found.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Registrar, can

16     we get a number, please?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P504.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And that was 65 ter number 606.

19             Now, the next intercept we would like to play is 1363, 65 ter

20     number 1363.  We are still in binder 2, Your Honours.

21             The witness has already explained, when he testified, how the

22     interlocutors speaking in the intercepts have been identified.  This is

23     an intercept of a conversation from the 26th of May -- 25th of May 1992,

24     it is between Milanko Mucibabic and Momcilo Mandic.  I will play as I

25     said the witness have explained how these people have been identified in

Page 9411

 1     the transcript, but I would play the beginning of the transcripts where

 2     the speakers introduce themselves or are being introduced at least in

 3     part, and then I'll stop and move to the part of this intercept which is

 4     relevant.  So that's how I'm going to proceed with this.  The full

 5     intercept will be over 17 minutes, nearly 18 minutes, to play, but I

 6     believe we don't need to do that.

 7             So if we can now play -- start playing this tape.

 8                           [Intercept played]

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I think you can stop here.  This was just to have

10     the speakers identify themselves.

11             I'd now like to move if we can to nine minutes and 40 seconds or

12     a little before.  Yeah, that's good.

13                           [Intercept played]

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the relevance of this from the

15     Prosecution's submission is that it illustrates the shared purpose

16     amongst a number of Serb leaders.  Your Honours have just heard how there

17     is talk about expelling Muslims from areas around Sarajevo, Ilijas among

18     others, and this is I said in May 1992 so it's during the relevant time

19     frame.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Objection.  I consider that this is

21     absolutely irrelevant, along with all my doubts concerning authenticity

22     and legality, Momcilo Mandic was tried before the state court of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina pursuant to an indictment for war crimes and he was

24     acquitted.

25             Secondly, Momcilo Mandic is a long-term associate of The Hague

Page 9412

 1     OTP.  He testified in some Prosecution cases, and the OTP delivered to me

 2     the transcripts of his statements, running to about 100 pages, where he

 3     expresses himself about me in very negative terms.  He doesn't to be sure

 4     accuse me of war crimes but he describes my character in the worst way.

 5             And fourthly I have been in a fierce conflict with Momcilo Mandic

 6     for two decades.  The public knows of our conflict.  There is no way I

 7     can be together with him in any kind of enterprise including a criminal

 8     enterprise.  If this conversation is authentic, it has -- it concerns the

 9     OTP.  The OTP is using this man.  He may have improvises this

10     conversation pursuant to orders from the OTP in order to fabricate

11     evidence.  I suspect that that's what happened.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen?

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I don't even know if I find it worth commenting

14     that of course the OTP has not manufactured this intercept.  We have

15     heard evidence about how this intercept came about and how it has been

16     delivered to the Office of the Prosecutor.  I have no further submissions

17     on that.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Registrar, could

19     you please give us a number for this exhibit?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P505.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, we will now pass to the next set or

22     segment of intercept that we have chosen for today.  This segment is

23     related to the previous intercept -- segment in that it also is relevant

24     to the JCE aspect of the case.

25             As a general matter, these intercepts shows how different alleged

Page 9413

 1     members of the joint criminal enterprise had communication with each

 2     other.  One of the things, general things, I would recall to the Chamber

 3     is the evidence you have heard about the command of the JNA and how

 4     Mr. Milosevic, although he did not have any formal functions in the

 5     command of the JNA, gave instructions in the summer of 1991 to Kadijevic

 6     and Adzic and how there were various meetings.  One of the themes in this

 7     case is how various players in fact corroborated with each other with a

 8     view to implement the common goal we allege exists in the indictment.

 9     And these intercepts form part of the evidence that be --

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Objection.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:  He cannot object to my information of

12     relevance --

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Objection.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  -- in this way.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, wait a moment,

16     please.  You have to allow Mr. Marcussen to finish saying what he has to

17     say and then you can make an objection, if you wish, because you cannot

18     cut him off.  He was just telling us something and you just interfered.

19     What did you want to tell us?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen or I?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No.  You.  What did you want to

22     say?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, firstly, it's

24     evident that whenever the Prosecutor rises, you interrupt me.  So he is

25     able to interrupt me.

Page 9414

 1             And I understood this to mean that I also had the right to

 2     interrupt him.  I wanted to say that you should not permit him to give

 3     political speeches.  We can hear the tape and then we can get additional

 4     information if needed.  But he is making a political speech even before

 5     the intercept has been presented.  That's what I wanted to say.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Marcussen?

 7     What did you want to say?  You wanted to tell us what we can hear in this

 8     wire tap and this is related to the indictment, is that what you wanted

 9     to say?  This is what I thought you wanted to say.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, Your Honours, I believe that I was

11     referring to evidence that has previously been presented before the Trial

12     Chambers rather than making speeches as sometimes happen in the

13     courtroom.  I don't think I need to elaborate further on the general area

14     of -- that these exhibits cover.  So I was going to address now the first

15     of these intercepts which is found in binder 1 of your material.  It is

16     65 ter number 348.  It is an intercepted conversation which took place on

17     the 8th of July 1991, between -- the relevant part is between Karadzic

18     and Milosevic, but it begins with persons named Vukojevic -- I apologise.

19     The intercept in our submission is relevant in that it illustrates offers

20     by Mr. Milosevic to provide superior -- material support to the JNA for

21     operations in Bosnia, and it shows that president Milosevic had contacts

22     with JNA generals in -- in the area, and again I recall this as relevant

23     to the issue of Milosevic's role and how different players in different

24     structures were actually operating together.  So I propose --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's proceed, then.

Page 9415

 1     Let's listen.

 2                           [Intercept played]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to come back to

 4     four minutes to hear the excerpt where he mentioned Mr. Seselj.

 5                           [Intercept played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover].

 7             "And that Kupres we've got 750 people but it's important for us

 8     that this battalion which is mobilised by the army is in Kupres and that

 9     everything will be as it should be, it will be, let those who remain be

10     put under Hess command because Kupres is terrible it's 50/50 and Serbs

11     suffered a lot there during the war, even this crazy Seselj fucked the

12     opposition's mother yesterday.  I heard that he said now that the JNA is

13     supposed to be defending the Serbian people you mustn't attack the JNA,

14     he said the one that has the tie of Zimmerman's waiter.  Yes, yes,

15     fucking hell.  So it's clear even to him, clear, clear, I've seen that.

16     I've seen that.  He's in direct contact with Mesic, do you have Uzelac's

17     telephone number.  No but let your people find it."

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop.  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  First of all, the fact

20     that RAM is mentioned here, that has been introduced into this context

21     subsequently because even the person to whom the OTP has shown the

22     greatest confidence here, Aleksandar Vasiljevic, on the 28th of December

23     2007, said or rather denied the existence of any kinds of ram plan.  This

24     has been inserted for some reason.  The whole plan concerns the efforts

25     to support the JNA in opposing the Croatian separatists.  This was when

Page 9416

 1     the rebellion of the Croatian population in western Herzegovina started.

 2     I assume that's why Kupres is being mentioned, if this conversation is

 3     authentic at all.

 4             Further, I have an objection to your translation.  The

 5     translation is not good.  This sentence that concerns me, because in the

 6     original it says, "Seselj fucked the opposition's mother."  And it was

 7     translated to you as, "Seselj fucked the opposition."  I have to use this

 8     nasty word even though it's not a habit of mine, and I am irritated by it

 9     but I'm just trying to point out that the translation is not a good one.

10     I happened to observe that.  Had it not been for the swear words I might

11     not have noticed it.

12             And there was something else I wanted to say to you.  If

13     Milosevic says that crazy Seselj, he is revealing what he thinks of me,

14     and at that point, when he liked one move of mine in the National

15     Assembly, he is still demonstrating an overall antipathy towards me.  Why

16     am I crazy?  Because I'm an anti-communist because I was prepared to

17     sacrifice my life fighting the communist regime.  He has no other

18     evidence of my craziness.  No one has ever managed to get any such

19     evidence although many have tried, and if this is used in a conversation

20     of this sort, then this conversation cannot be evidence of the existence

21     of a joint criminal enterprise.  There is no joint criminal enterprise

22     between Milosevic and Karadzic either because they are both trying to

23     help the JNA, to help the mobilisation, to support -- if this

24     conversation is authentic, which I doubt, they mention 750 volunteers who

25     want to join the JNA, in one place, 70, in another place, Kupres is a key

Page 9417

 1     strategic point in Bosnia-Herzegovina which was not to be allowed to fall

 2     into the hands of Croatian separatists in 1991.  In 1991, there was no

 3     conflict between the Serbs and the Muslims, absolutely no conflict.

 4     There was only a problem in that a certain number of Muslims failed to

 5     respond to the call-up, to join the reserve forces of the JNA, and that

 6     was all.  Bosnia was still functioning as a federal unit of Yugoslavia.

 7     That is why this is not relevant and cannot be relevant.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question, sir, could

 9     we please move into private session for a brief moment?

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9418











11 Pages 9418-9422 redacted. Private session.















Page 9423

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session and 65 ter number 348

 6     will be Exhibit number P506.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen?

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour we have indeed taken up a lot of time

 9     on objections and various matters.  The exercise has maybe also shown the

10     utility of the procedure that has been adopted.  We have made it in terms

11     of time, I think we are well beyond halfway through the intercepts we are

12     going to play because some of these intercepts have been very long and

13     the next ones to come are going to be shorter.  There are still a number

14     left that we intended to play, so I wanted to seek the guidance of the

15     Chamber on whether or not it would be useful to continue this tomorrow,

16     if the witness is available, and of course I have no idea because we have

17     no communication with the witness but we should maybe wrap that up before

18     we --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will put this question but I

20     believe we should move back into closed session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9424

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour we are back in open session.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, you have the

16     floor.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The next intercept is

18     fortunately a short one.  It is 65 ter number 357 -- sorry, 353.  It is

19     an intercept which -- of a conversation which took place on the 9th of

20     July 1991, between Duvnjak and Veselinovic and - I guess I'm getting

21     tired - Veselinovic.  The issues that this intercept is relevant to is

22     the same as the previous one, namely coordination of military support and

23     mobilisation.  Let's try to play the tape.  And it mentions, sorry, and

24     of course what is in our submission relevant here is not the speakers but

25     the people that are being discussed in it and the coordination between

Page 9425

 1     Karadzic and Milosevic and Kadijevic and things like that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, first of all, let us hear

 3     loud and clear who the participants in the conversation are.  Who is

 4     Duvnjak and who is this other one, Danilo.  I have absolutely never heard

 5     of these people.  Let us see who these people are.  Then let us see what

 6     kind of conversation they are conducting.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, do you know who

 8     this Duvnjak is or this Danilo person, or do you have no idea?

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'm not aware of that and I do believe looking at

10     the transcript that I omitted to mention that the second speaker in this

11     transcript will be Radovan Karadzic, who we do know, who is a -- and it

12     is what he says that is relevant.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, let's move to

14     closed session, please.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9426

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And let's listen to the tape.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please go ahead,

15     Mr. Marcussen, we can listen to the tape now.

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I believe it's coming up.

17                           [Intercept played]

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go back to 55 seconds.

19                           [Intercept played]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21             Well, so, Mr. Seselj, please hurry because we are just about to

22     finish the session.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In addition to my suspicion that

Page 9427

 1     this is not authentic and my statement that this is illegal, I believe

 2     that this is fully irrelevant for this case.  First of all, the

 3     conversation is taking place on the 9th of July 1991 and the joint

 4     criminal enterprise on the basis of what the Prosecution states in my

 5     case and in the Milosevic case started on the 1st of August; and

 6     obviously if this is truly Radovan Karadzic's voice, that he is

 7     advocating rallies as many volunteers as possible within the JNA ranks

 8     and it is the JNA that should be in command of all.

 9             It is the Croatian separatist rebellion that is under way and

10     obviously this is the time just before the JNA was involved in this open

11     showdown with the Croatian separatists.  Obviously, this has nothing to

12     do with the -- with any joint criminal enterprise because the JNA is the

13     only regular military force in the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.  It's on

15     the record.

16             Mr. Registrar, give me a number, please.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit number P507.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

19     Mr. Marcussen, we will continue tomorrow because we have no more time for

20     today.  I don't know how much longer you will need, how much more time do

21     you need, or how many more tapes do you have, approximately ten, I

22     suppose.  They must be shorter than the ones we heard, I imagine.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Fortunately we will move to intercepts that are

24     going to be much shorter and it's very difficult to say how long it will

25     take tomorrow but we will definitely be able to finish both the

Page 9428

 1     intercepts and the witness tomorrow.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the hearing is

 3     adjourned, and I wish you a nice afternoon, pleasant afternoon, and we

 4     will see each other tomorrow at 8.30.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.13 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th of

 7                           July, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.