1 Thursday, 25 September 2008
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.
8 This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Vojislav Seselj.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.
11 Today, we are Thursday, the 25th of September, 2008. I would
12 like to greet the representatives of the OTP: Ms. Dahl, Mr. Mundis, as
13 well as their legal assistant; Mr. Seselj, as well as Mr. Seselj's
14 associates; and I would like to welcome the new members on his team, who
15 have just taken up their new job. So I would like to welcome them.
16 Let's resume our proceedings. We shall drop the blinds, since
17 the witness has been granted protective measures.
18 Before we do that, Mr. Seselj, I think you wanted to say
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, just very briefly, Judges.
21 It is with great regret that I have to inform you that probably
22 this is the last trip of my legal advisers to The Hague because this
23 morning the Registry referred [as interpreted] to cover their travel
24 expenses; that is to say that they are covering their own expenses here.
25 I haven't got the money to pay for them, either, so they won't be able to
1 come anymore. Until now, they came about once a month, and the Registry
2 paid only for their trip and nothing else. Now they've even refused to
3 do that, so they will no longer be able to come.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have been advised
5 of this. I believe that this is something that can be dealt with. The
6 Registrar has asked your legal advisers for a number of answers to their
7 questions. I believe that the answers do not match the questions. This
8 is what I have been told.
9 There's no reason, of course, for your legal advisers not to be
10 reimbursed their expenses, all the more so for the new arrival on your
11 team, so this cannot apply to your new counsel. This is not something
12 that concerns him; i.e., the questionnaire that has been sent out.
13 Rest assured the Trial Chamber will resolve this issue so that no
14 one is prejudiced.
15 Let's bring the witness in now. Ms. Dahl, you have 15 minutes
16 left. Are we going to hear the witness in open session or in private
18 MS. DAHL: I will be needing to discuss some records that are
19 under seal, and I also have a housekeeping matter that I realised last
20 night when I was looking at the binders that were distributed for a
21 particular set of records.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 Good morning, Witness. You may sit down.
25 Let's move into closed session, or can you address your
1 housekeeping matters in open session?
2 MS. DAHL: This concerns records under seal, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, closed session,
4 please, Registrar.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 9984-10008 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Trial Chamber
15 would like to put the following question to you: You gave a statement to
16 the OTP in which you indicated that you had been the victim of a number
17 of assaults on certain dates. I shall not address this in detail.
18 It so happens that we discover now that a serious assault that
19 led to grave bodily injury was conducted against you, and this is
20 something you did not mention to the OTP. Why was this assault never
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I did not feel it was
23 necessary, although this was grave bodily injury. I went to see a doctor
25 (redacted). Well, now people know about this incident, and I
1 didn't really want that to happen. That would have made it an even more
2 aggravating circumstance in terms of what had happened there.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we redact at line 24 on
4 page 29, please.
5 Right, so you have given us your explanation.
6 Ms. Dahl.
7 MS. DAHL: We also need the place of medical treatment, as well,
8 in line 23.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It is very tricky
10 to switch from open session to private session, so let's move back into
11 private session so that we can finish with this series of questions.
12 Registrar, please, private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 10011-10013 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
20 MS. DAHL: Could we ask that the witness and the accused be
21 reminded to allow for interpretation and leave a pause between question
22 and answer. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have already mentioned this.
24 Please be careful. You speak the same language, and the interpreters are
25 having a hard time.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You confirm, sir, that it was in July and June 1992 that the
4 largest group of people arrived in Hrtkovci from Grubisno Polje?
5 A. Yes, that's where they came from, from Western Slavonia.
6 Q. Now I'm intentionally referring to Grubisno Polje.
7 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, Mr. Seselj needs to be reminded to turn
8 off his microphone to preserve the protective measures in place when he
9 completes his question.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why? I haven't quite
11 understood why. Why does he need to close his microphone to abide by the
12 protective measures?
13 MS. DAHL: The voice distortion works through the witness's
14 microphone, and his undistorted voice can be transmitted through the
15 accused's microphone.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this technical
18 Mr. Seselj, when you put the question, please turn your
19 microphone off. If you don't turn your microphone off, one can hear the
20 witness's voice.
21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Q. Do you remember - you stated that yourself, after all - that the
23 largest number of Serbs who had arrived were from Grubisno Polje, and
24 then you referred to Pakrac and you referred to Okucani, but most of them
25 came from Grubisno Polje, right?
1 A. They told me that that's where they mostly came from and also
2 from the area surrounding Zdenci. However, I have some names of persons
3 written down who are from Grubisno Polje, so they said that most of them
4 had come from Grubisno Polje.
5 Q. Do you know that in Grubisno Polje, there was never, ever any
6 fighting, any combat?
7 A. I heard about that later.
8 Q. So these people were brutally expelled by the Croatian Army and
9 police without having rebelled against Tudjman's regime at all; isn't
10 that right?
11 A. I am not aware of that, but I believe you that that's the way it
13 Q. Do you know - I assume that you'd have to know - that the media
14 in Serbia
15 from Croatia
16 A. I didn't know what the truth was. Some say one thing, and others
17 say the other thing. I as a person, as a human being, and (redacted), I
18 feel sorry for the Serb people and the Croatian people on account of
19 their suffering.
20 Q. Well, I do believe you that you're sorry, but I need to establish
21 the facts or to establish that we do not agree on the facts. So is it
22 not a fact --
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment. Registrar, we will
24 have to redact line 15.
25 Witness, when you answer in the future, never refer to who you
1 are. Otherwise, we will have to redact the transcript. So don't refer
2 to this, please. We are currently in open session, and it's rather
4 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Since you have lived in that area, you weren't limited only to
7 Hrtkovci; you went to other villages, to other parts of Vojvodina,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was it obvious to you that a large number of Serbs had arrived
11 not only in Hrtkovci but throughout Vojvodina?
12 A. Yes. I know that Novi Slamkamen, Golubinci, and then in
13 Kukujevci, Gibavci [phoen], so that is to say in almost every town in
14 Vojvodina and Srem, there were refugees.
15 Q. And there were several hundred thousands of them?
16 A. Yes. I met quite a lot of them in Sremska Mitrovica. The
17 greatest number was there, but also in Ruma and in other villages.
18 Q. All right. So the war hadn't started yet, and there was a huge
19 number of refugees in Serbia
20 those refugees to attempt to find somebody that they could exchange their
21 property with so that they could have a more or less normal life?
22 Wouldn't that be a normal conduct under the circumstances?
23 A. Yes, a normal conduct. You're quite correct. I would have done
24 the same.
25 Q. Providing there were no incidents.
1 A. Yes, certainly, without incidents.
2 Q. So what was happening in relation to the exchange of property --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, if I understand you
4 correctly - because the Prosecution had not highlighted this and
5 Mr. Seselj has just emphasised this - before the Croats left your area, I
6 believe - and this is what I understand now - that hundreds of Serbian
7 refugees arrived massively in the area, and you gave us the names of
8 these settlements in chronological order. The Serb refugees arrived
9 first, and then the Croats started to leave. Is this in the right
10 chronological order?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First, the Serb refugees came.
12 Later on, I heard that six or seven Croatian families left during the
13 same time, and, well, perhaps they came across each other on the road.
14 Perhaps they were motivated by fear, but it was first the Serb refugees
15 from Croatia
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is now on the transcript.
17 According to you, the Serb refugees arrived first, and they came from
19 Let's proceed.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now, these Serb refugees who had left their property in Croatia
22 who were expelled, they were looking for some Croats who would be willing
23 to exchange property, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you have information indicating how many properties were
1 exchanged between Serbs who had been expelled and Croats in Hrtkovci from
2 June 1991 until the 6th of May, 1992, when the rally of the Serbian
3 Radical Party was held? How many properties had been exchanged before
4 that time?
5 A. Mr. Seselj, that's not my job. I don't like to interfere in
6 other people's business. I have no information to that effect. I later
7 on learned about this in 1995 and 1996 when we socialised in Zagreb
8 so on. It was then that we informed each other about these events.
9 Now, as to who was exchanging property with whom at that
10 particular time, I knew nothing about it then.
11 Q. All right. So if you don't have accurate information about the
12 number of properties exchanged, would you agree that a large number of
13 properties was already exchanged in that period of time?
14 A. Before your public rally in Hrtkovci, yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Thank you. That's a very important piece of information for me.
16 So a large number of properties had already been exchanged before I even
17 appeared in Hrtkovci?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I suppose that you are aware of the fact that before my arrival
20 on the 6th of May, there was no branch office of the Serbian Radical
21 Party in Hrtkovci at all.
22 A. I know that there were existing authorities of Mr. Milosevic.
23 They mentioned the Serbian Renewal Movement, and then I know that there
24 were supporters in your political party there, but I didn't know much
25 about political parties.
1 Q. But you should know that the Serbian Radical Party was
2 established more than a year later after other major political parties in
5 A. Perhaps I read it in the papers. I used to read papers.
6 Q. Yes. And before the 6th of May, 1992, we didn't manage to
7 establish a branch office in Hrtkovci. The ruling party, the Socialist
8 Party, was already there, the Serbian Renewal Movement was there, perhaps
9 even the Democratic Party of Croats in Vojvodina led by Tonkovic, but
10 there were no Radicals there in Hrtkovci; am I right?
11 A. I know about other people, and if you say so, you're probably
12 right about what you say.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, at this stage of the
14 proceedings you have just said something which caught my attention. You
15 said that you read the press at the time. We don't have the press. I
16 assume that when these thousands of Serbs left Croatia, articles must
17 have been written in the press about these flows of refugees. I assume
18 that the journalist that wrote about these migrations must have also
19 mentioned a similar phenomenon, i.e., the departure of the Croats. I
20 assume that the journalists also mentioned that the Serbs arriving from
22 or houses and that others had to turn to the authorities to have
23 somewhere to live, and the others may have exchanged flats with Croats so
24 that the Croats could go to Serbia
1 (redacted); it's very
2 difficult, as I have said - and you are someone who reads books. Now,
3 could you tell us whether this was mentioned in the press? And this is
4 irrespective of any political party intervention.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...
6 informed about this at length, but there were so many refugees coming in
7 from Croatia
8 Hrtkovci, even if everybody had moved out voluntarily, and I regret the
9 fact that these refugees had to go to other villages. They were
10 overflowing to other villages, and wherever they could, they found
11 various arrangements to either legally occupy certain houses, or in some
12 cases they would use force to expel previous tenants. But there was a
13 huge number of friends coming in from Croatia. I was surprised that so
14 many people had decided to take this historic step and go into an
15 unknown. One had to have faith to do something like that.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We need to have a break now
17 because it is 10.00. We shall have a 20-minute break and resume in 20
18 minutes' time.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.00 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 10.23 a.m.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.
22 We're in open session.
23 Ms. Dahl.
24 MS. DAHL: Before we resume the cross-examination of the witness,
25 Your Honour, I wanted to report on my attempt to review and evaluate the
1 material that Mr. Seselj disclosed to the Prosecution at the beginning of
2 the session today.
3 First, I want to put on the record that at 9.20 this morning, I
4 was handed another 20 pages of material, and awaiting me after the break
5 were an additional six pages or so of newspaper articles. I arranged to
6 have a language assistant meet me at the break. We attempted to review
7 the material. I was not able to get past the first couple of pages.
8 Site translation is time-consuming; and regardless of the first read, I
10 evaluation of the material. I was not able to read more than the first
11 cover page of the very first document that was first presented.
12 I propose as a remedy that Mr. Seselj be precluded from using the
13 documents during cross-examination. I think the Prosecution is unfairly
14 prejudiced by untimely disclosure.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I assume that Mr. Seselj
16 intends to use these documents. According to the case law and
17 jurisprudence of this Trial Chamber, these documents will not be
18 admitted. This is the way things were decided. When documents are not
19 translated, they cannot be admitted.
20 However, Mr. Seselj may ask questions and present the documents.
21 On your hand, you can ask additional questions after the
22 examination-in-chief [as interpreted], and we will ask the witness to
23 come back for these additional questions because then you will have had
24 time to read the documents.
25 So let's continue.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The arrival of several hundred thousand of Serbs expelled from
4 isn't that right?
5 A. Yes, that's quite logical.
6 Q. And that atmosphere could be observed in all parts of Serbia
7 that's quite logical, isn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Amidst that sentiment, from time to time there were certain
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the Serbs who were arriving, in addition to trying to find
13 Croats that wanted to exchange their properties, they frequently came
14 across vacant houses of people who had lived abroad for many years prior
15 to that, correct?
16 A. I'm not aware of that, but there were such cases. As to how
17 many, I don't know.
18 Q. There's no need to talk about figures. We're just talking about
19 a phenomenon. So it was quite natural that if there were a certain
20 number of vacant houses in Hrtkovci, the owners of which lived in Germany
21 or they moved out to another place due to their work and they kept a
22 house in Hrtkovci as their country home that they visited only
23 occasionally, there were cases when people entered these vacant houses,
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Whenever somebody intervened, the police would come and evict
2 people from those houses?
3 A. I heard about evictions. I did not attend them, and I don't know
4 how many there were.
5 Q. But you can confirm that police evicted people from houses?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But there were cases when owners did not react to somebody
8 occupying their house, either because they were abroad or because they
9 thought it was not humane to react under those circumstances, and then
10 police would not intervene?
11 A. Police would only intervene if somebody reported that.
12 Q. So only if an owner reported that, the police would go and evict
13 people. Thank you. Thank you for these truly sincere answers.
14 You know that in law, there is something called "vis maior." If
15 there are some catastrophes, natural catastrophes, earthquakes, fires, or
16 wars, when there is great destruction, people need to be provided with
17 accommodation, with housing. They need roofs over their heads, and if
18 somebody's property is available, it can be temporarily given to somebody
19 who truly needs it.
20 A. Yes, but people could live together. There need not have been
21 any expulsions.
22 Q. Now, speaking of expulsions, do you know of any case where a
23 Croatian family was expelled from Hrtkovci without exchanging their
24 property with Serbs prior to that?
25 A. There were many of them who had to leave in great haste. They
1 would only collect their passports and very few belongings, and they
2 would leave. I heard that later on, fortunately, there was a better
3 outcome. They managed to find better arrangements.
4 Q. I don't know about these cases of people leaving in haste, but
5 would you agree that all Croats who'd left from Hrtkovci, be it in 1991
6 or later, exchanged property with Serbs who had previously been expelled
7 from Croatia
8 A. I don't know that, and it wasn't within my domain. There were
9 authorities in charge of that. All I know are the documents that I was
10 duty-bound to issue. I did not meddle into anything else.
11 Q. Very well. Do you know of a single case where somebody was left
12 without their property, that they were deported, expelled from Croatia
13 from Serbia
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
15 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
16 Q. -- from Serbia
17 this is how it remained? Do you know of a single such case?
18 A. I personally don't know of such cases, but people are saying that
19 many of them were defrauded. When they came to Croatia to the address
20 given to them, they found people living there, which is to say that wrong
21 addresses were given to them, and that was the greatest stress for them.
22 Q. Let us understand each other. When Serbs were leaving Croatia
23 with a Yugoslav passport, they had no opportunity to return back to
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Is it true that Croatian authorities would let in only Catholics,
2 Croats with a Yugoslav passport, those in possession of a certificate
3 from a Roman Catholic church that they were proper Catholics?
4 A. I don't know how they arrived. I don't know how Croatian
5 authorities conducted themselves at the border. What I was asked to do,
6 I did that, simply that.
7 Q. Is it true that a large number of Croats, prior to exchanging
8 property with the Serbs who were expelled, first went to Croatia to see
9 the condition of the Serbian property there to assure themselves of the
10 value of that property, and then they would come back to Serbia and sign
11 a contract on exchange, correct?
12 A. There were cases where people would travel together to Rijeka
13 Kraljevica, to make arrangements. There were such cases where they would
14 see the property first and then exchange it. That's true.
15 Q. Is it true that the Serbs from Croatia were expelled in three
16 great waves? The first wave was in 1991, and they were expelled from
17 places where there was no war, Croatian cities such as Zagreb, Rijeka
18 Bijelovar, Sisak, Grubisno Polje -- it's not a city; it's a village. Is
19 it true that before the war, it was first the so-called urban Serbs that
20 arrived from that area?
21 A. Whether those were urban Serbs or rural Serbs, I don't know, but
22 they were certainly predecessors who wanted the Croat families to leave
23 their properties because they themselves needed it.
24 Q. Is it true that the second wave was in December of 1991 when
25 there was an exodus from Western Slavonia?
1 A. More and more people would come. Where they were coming from, I
2 don't know, but there were many of them who came in several instances.
3 That's true.
4 Q. And then the third great wave was after Operations Flash and
5 Storm in 1995?
6 A. Mr. Seselj, we, people of Croat ethnicity, suffered greatly
7 there, at least mentally, under pressure. We all remember the Flash and
8 the Storm operation, but the question is, why were we, people in
9 Hrtkovci, blamed for that?
10 Q. Certainly you can't be blamed for Flash and Storm, but we have
11 already agreed that there was an anti-Croat sentiment that surfaced as
12 soon as that first great influx came from Croatia of several hundred
13 thousand, and that sentiment could not be simply terminated on its own?
14 A. Yes. This bad sentiment could be felt from the Serbs, and the
15 Croats had to leave because of that.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I am interested in the
17 two first waves, not the wave of 1995 but the two first ones. Did you
18 actually talk with a Serb that would have been expelled from Croatia
19 Did you have the opportunity to talk to them, or was there absolutely no
20 dialogue with them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't really like to socialise
22 with people I don't know. That is a question of my own nature, so I
23 really avoided people I didn't know. Forgive me for my weakness.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please proceed.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You, as a Croat --
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I asked
4 Mr. Seselj to proceed, but I've been thinking, and I'm a bit surprised at
5 your answer. I would like to have -- let's move to private session very
6 briefly. Mr. Registrar, could we please move briefly into private
8 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In view of the fact that you said that the Serbs had been talked
25 into leaving --
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're now in open session.
3 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].
4 Q. In view of the fact that you said that Serbs had been talked into
5 leaving, are you referring to 1991?
6 A. I don't know what year it was, but they were on the move. I have
7 a videocassette showing that, a speech made by a distinguished gentleman
8 who was instigating people to leave.
9 Q. How can a distinguished gentleman make several hundred thousand
10 Serbs leave Zagreb
11 have these people take their women and children and leave practically
12 everything that they had acquired during the course of their life? Who
13 could do that?
14 A. Force is the distinguished gentleman I referred to, and I will
15 put that under quotation marks. However, these people would not want to
16 leave on their own just as the Croats didn't want to leave. It was
17 simply force major. One had to leave.
18 Q. So someone forced these Serbs to leave? Isn't that right?
19 A. If so many of them had left, it would be very surprising that it
20 was voluntary.
21 Q. You do know that the first Serbs started leaving when the Tudjman
22 regime came to power; isn't that right?
23 A. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm not approving of anything as far as
24 the situation is concerned, but evil things happened on both sides.
25 Q. So we do agree that evil things happened on both sides. Now, let
1 us discuss where it was first that the evil cropped up and where it was
2 worse in terms of their consequences.
3 A. Mr. Seselj, I am the one who should speak of that least of all.
4 Q. All right. If you should not speak about this, then we're not
5 going to dwell on it any longer.
6 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question. You
7 said that they were convinced by speeches; but according to you, who
8 convinced them? Is it the Croatian authorities or other entities?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said to Mr. Vojvoda
10 Seselj that it's not for me to say who had made the call. I personally
11 have a video-recording of the gentleman's speech, and what was said was
12 that people should be on the move.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you just said "Vojvoda
14 Seselj." Why are you saying that?
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're in open session. Could
19 we please redact, Mr. Registrar. I tried to stop you, but you were
20 faster than I was.
21 So you're saying that you're using "vojvoda" because that is what
22 is relayed in the press. Very well.
23 Mr. Seselj.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the witness says
25 "vojvoda" because I really am a Chetnik vojvoda, and I'm proud of that
2 Q. Mr. VS-0061, now we're going to deal with the first rally of the
3 Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci on the 6th of May, 1991. You were not
4 present at that rally, right?
5 A. I wasn't.
6 Q. It is only from other persons that you heard that some things had
7 been mentioned during the rally; isn't that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you aware of the fact -- or rather, do you remember that this
10 rally was held within the pre-election campaign for the first federal
11 elections in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia towards the end of May
13 A. People I socialised with told me that your purpose was to
14 establish your party.
15 Q. To establish a branch of the Serb Radical Party in Hrtkovci and
16 to make a pre-election speech, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The people who attended the rally, did they tell you that I was
19 presenting the election programme of the Serb Radical Party?
20 A. Yes, and among the many things that I was told, I remembered many
21 good things as well.
22 Q. I talked about economics, social, cultural programmes, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in passing, I spoke of the ethnic issue, right?
25 A. Yes, that was mentioned as well.
1 Q. In view of the fact that you did not attend the rally - but you
2 did read the newspapers and you watched television; you listened to the
3 radio - I assume that you'd have to remember had I during this election
4 campaign presented two theses. The first one, due to the fact that
5 Tudjman's Croatian authorities had expelled thousands of Serbs from
7 measures of retorsion. "Retorsion" means retaliation.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I have an
9 administrative question. I noted that in Binder -- in the Prosecution's
10 Binder number 3, there is -- we can find your speech, the speech you
11 gave. And if I'm right, this speech comes from a book that was published
12 by the Serbian Radical Party. In the documents in Cyrillic, we have this
13 speech, and this speech is translated into English in the Prosecution's
15 Given that this speech is extremely important, the judgement will
16 be made in French, and I don't want to run any risk as to a possible
17 misinterpretation of the words you used in your speech, so this will have
18 to be really very carefully translated.
19 I checked and wondered whether I could obtain a French
20 translation -- a perfect French translation of this speech that's in
21 Cyrillic from CLSS. I was told that here we don't translate from B/C/S
22 into French. We translate from B/C/S into English and then the English
23 is translated into French, so we do have a problem here.
24 The head of the CLSS -- the head of the department --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- speaks all three languages
2 and can control what is being translated, but as of now, we don't have a
3 translation. B/C/S into French, you know, that would be 100-per cent
5 Maybe given your resources and what means you have at your
6 disposal, maybe you could obtain a French translation using the services
7 of a Serbian official translator who could actually do the job.
8 Here at the Tribunal, we don't go directly from B/C/S into French
9 for written translations. I wanted you to be aware of this so you know
10 exactly what the situation is.
11 Ms. Dahl.
12 MS. DAHL: Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to note that the
13 publication of Mr. Seselj's book containing text from the speech is not
14 contemporaneous, nor is it necessarily a verbatim recording. He has
15 published the speech in two different books. One indicates a stoppage of
16 a tape and an incomplete recording, so I just wanted to qualify that it
17 is some evidence of the speech but certainly not conclusive.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That is very
19 important. Thank you.
20 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor after this digression.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this speech was
22 first published in a book of mine before there was any intimation that an
23 indictment would be issued against me in The Hague, so what is recorded
24 on videocassette was recorded on paper too. If this witness has a
25 videocassette of the speech, it would be a good thing if it were to be
1 brought here because no one could have known then that it would be needed
2 one day to have it broadcast in its entirety. What is clear from the
3 speech is that I did not read any list or name any names, and in the
4 indictment it says that I made lists and named names. So some things are
5 clear already.
6 As for the translation of this speech into French, the Registry
7 would have to take care of that. I don't have the resources or the
8 possibilities to do that.
9 Unfortunately, I had a good lawyer who had a very good knowledge
10 of French. He was on my team. Dragan Tasic was his name. Regrettably,
11 he died a few months ago. He provided invaluable assistance to me when I
12 needed to have some things translated from French.
13 You remember when I cross-examined Yves Tomic, that Prosecution
14 expert witness, that I then had text in the French language thanks to
15 Dragan Tasic, that associate of mine. He died a premature death, and I
16 cannot deal with the French language any longer.
17 At any rate, I have to ask this witness about some things that
18 have to do with that speech. The witness already confirmed that in May I
19 had already publicly advocated retorsion and I attacked the regime in
21 Croatian authorities were expelling Serbs from Croatia, I was attacking
22 the Milosevic regime for not responding the same way.
23 Q. Isn't that true, sir?
24 A. It is true, but why do the innocent have to suffer? Who was
25 innocent there? Your people and my people. This is a sin that will have
1 to be atoned for. No comment.
2 Q. I fully understand you, but in that situation that was one of the
3 solutions to an already existing problem; don't you agree?
4 A. Yes. Regrettably, it was one of the solutions when there wasn't
5 a better one.
6 Q. In a more normal situation, it wouldn't have crossed anyone's
7 mind to advocate that kind of thing, right?
8 A. Thank God.
9 Q. But by then, hundreds of thousands of expelled Serbs had reached
11 possible solutions by itself, although it is painful. I agree that it's
13 A. It is painful, but the question is that someone had to instigate
14 all of that.
15 Q. We know who instigated all that: the Tudjman regime in Croatia
16 Isn't that right? There is no one else.
17 A. I cannot say anything. I'm not involved in politics. We are a
18 smart people. Let us read people's minds.
19 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Witness, could
20 you please specify this for us? You said that you did not hear the
21 speech directly. You heard about it. I would like to know whether you
22 were told that in this speech there was hints at retorsion or retaliation
23 measures, retaliation, which is the word used by Mr. Seselj.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would see two or three people at
25 a time, at the most. They were visibly frightened, and they said, "Sir,
1 we have to leave." I don't want to state in public anything that I had
2 heard from other people. I already said I'm not interested in that
3 speech. However, they left, saying that they felt that they needed to
4 leave as soon as possible.
5 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The people who attended the rally, did they tell you that at one
8 point in time during this speech, I stated that when the Serb
9 Radical Party comes to power, we would resolve that problem more easily;
10 we are going to give expelled Serbs Croat addresses, and we're going to
11 say, "Go there and exchange property with these people"? Did they tell
12 you that?
13 A. Yes, they did tell me that, and I found it in many newspapers,
14 and this became extremely popular among the Serbs who had come from
16 Q. Are you aware of the fact that I'm not denying the fact that I
17 advocated such political positions at all? I confirm this to this day.
18 A. In a civilised way, you were sharply against both.
19 Q. All right. You say in one of your statements that I mentioned
20 some names during the rally; isn't that right?
21 A. Names? That was never uttered by me. I heard things from other
22 people, and I said that I don't want to speak about that.
23 Q. Other people told you that I mentioned the names of some Croats
24 from Hrtkovci?
25 A. Yes, including my own.
1 Q. Do you know who mentioned your name and in what context?
2 A. When names are mentioned, tensions run even higher and the
3 pressure is even greater. We were pressured to leave as soon as
4 possible. That was their conclusion, not my personal conclusion.
11 Ms. Dahl, maybe you could explain your reasons.
12 MS. DAHL: May we discuss this in closed session so we don't
13 increase the amount of redactions.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a few seconds, then, now.
15 Mr. Registrar, could we please briefly move into private session.
16 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
18 (redacted) It's difficult for you, I know. We all make mistakes.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know who Mate Markus is?
22 A. Mr. Seselj, I know all of these people to this day. We
11 Page 10041 redacted.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what is the truth?
3 Who knows whether this is true or not? I know nothing about that.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Dahl.
5 MS. DAHL: May we go into private session for a moment, please.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, private session.
7 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know what? If these names were
1 uttered in 1992, then everybody remembers that, I guess, and it is well
2 known which names were uttered, but it doesn't matter.
3 Q. Mr. VS-0061, since at the time of the rally of the Serbian
4 Radical Party you were in Hrtkovci, did you hear that there was no
5 incident whatsoever at the rally?
6 A. Yes, I heard that everything was conducted in a civilised,
7 orderly manner.
8 Q. Do you know that a lot of Croats attended the rally?
9 A. Yes, there were.
10 Q. They couldn't have liked my words concerning Croats and Croatia
11 but perhaps they liked some other things that I said?
12 A. Both are true.
13 Q. Do you know that there was a large number of people from the
14 neighbouring villages there?
15 A. Yes, I know that because so many people could not have come just
16 from Hrtkovci.
17 Q. So during that campaign, we didn't have time to tour all places
18 in Serbia
19 people from neighbouring villages; isn't that right?
20 A. Yeah, that's what it seems like.
21 Q. There were people from Mikinavci [phoen], Paticova [phoen], and
22 some other places?
23 A. Yes, even from the south of Serbia.
24 Q. You mean from the other bank of the Sava River
25 had in mind?
1 A. Yes, the vicinity of Sabac.
2 Q. Yes, because Sabac is just across over the bridge?
3 A. Yes, correct.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you challenge the figure.
18 He says that there were 100, approximately.
19 Mr. Seselj, please proceed.
20 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In examination-in-chief, you stated that the greatest wave of
22 departures of Croats from Hrtkovci came after the killing of
23 Mijat Stefanac?
24 A. Yes, Stefanac.
25 Q. Can you confirm that?
1 A. After your speech and especially after the killing of
2 Mr. Stefanac, the number of people departing increased.
3 Q. The murder of Stefanac was almost two months after my speech,
5 A. Yes. Well, if that was May, then two months later, yes.
6 Q. You stated to The Hague
7 has not been resolved to this day?
8 A. I'm not aware of that, whether it has been resolved or not. I
9 heard that some people were accused. Now, whether it was fully resolved,
10 I don't know.
11 Q. I apologise, but that's not what your statement says. Let's see
12 what your statement says.
13 Paragraph 32 of your statement which you gave in 2006, would you
14 please put it on the ELMO? It's very important. There's just one
15 sentence there but quite remarkable. Could that be placed on the ELMO,
16 please. If not, we'd rather not waste time.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The image must not be broadcast
18 outside the courtroom.
19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Paragraph 32 of your 2006 statement. This is page 9.
21 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I'm unclear about the display on the
22 ELMO. Everyone has a copy of the statement in the courtroom, I believe,
23 and the witness can look at his text, but putting it on the document
24 camera is designed to broadcast it. So I'm a little confused and would
25 like to ask for some clarification.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Theoretically, the Registrar
2 can stop or prevent the picture from being broadcast. There seems to be
3 a problem because we don't have it on our screens.
4 Since everyone has a paper copy, put your question, Mr. Seselj.
5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 Q. In paragraph 32 of your 2006 statement, there is just one
8 "The murder of Mijat Stefanac was never solved."
9 Correct? Do you have it before you?
10 A. Yes, I have it, Mr. Seselj. I can see that. As far as I'm
11 aware, it hasn't been solved. If it has been, then I beg everybody's
12 forgiveness, but I'm unaware of that.
13 Q. I have a whole set of documents here. I published them in my
14 book (redacted) I'm not
15 going to put the entire book to you. We will simply see from these
16 documents that the murderers of Stefanac were arrested on the same day
17 and tried later on.
18 This is the first set of documents starting on page 6, the
19 documents that I had photocopied today.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Dahl.
21 MS. DAHL: In January, the Chamber redacted the title of the book
22 because of its offensive nature, and I would ask that that same decision
23 be repeated today.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber
25 does not want to hear such offensive words. In the interest of justice
1 and in the interest of persons, I would like to ask you not to use such
2 offensive, inappropriate terms.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not attributing
4 anything to anyone. What I said was quite appropriate. This is the
5 correct title of the book. I can't change the title now after it's been
6 published in 3.000 copies and then several thousand more copies were
7 downloaded from my web site.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the title of the
9 book in a number of countries would have been subject to a legal action
10 to ban such titles being used because of the terms used. I don't know
11 what's happened as far as the interested party is concerned. Maybe she
12 did not resort to any legal action. Whatever the case may be, this
13 Tribunal cannot use such offensive terms, and I would adopt the same view
14 if the situation were the other way around.
15 Let's now focus on matters of substance and hear your question.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please place on the ELMO -
17 all of these documents can be shown to the public because they deal with
18 the murder of Mijat Stefanac - just to describe briefly how this all
19 unfolded and so that you can give me your position on that.
20 Do you have this set of documents? I provided them today so that
21 they can be photocopied for everybody, including OTP and the Trial
22 Chamber. It's the first set of documents and then the second subset
23 within the first set, page 6.
24 MS. DAHL: Your Honour, I appreciate that this is Mr. Seselj's
25 first time conducting a trial, but the vague references to the material
1 without numbering or date or further reference leaves me unable to
2 identify what he's referring to, particularly because I can't read the
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, when you introduce
5 a document, say, for instance, that this is an article from the press
6 published on such-and-such a day, stemming from such-and-such a newspaper
7 or review, so please give us a number, and then everybody understands.
8 I've seen a number of newspaper articles pass before my eyes, but just
9 specify that you are placing such-and-such a document on the ELMO. Give
10 us a place, name, and date of the article. This avoids the Prosecution
11 from getting on its feet, and we save time thereby.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am putting to the witness the
13 official note of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia,
14 Sremska Mitrovica SUP, dated 29th of June, 1992, compiled by Milorad
15 Popovic, authorised official -- police official. And if we show it to
16 Mr. Stefanac [as interpreted], then with his assistance we can learn of
17 the contents of this document. When he sees it, when we put it on the
18 ELMO and he will tell us about it, then you will learn what's in it.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You are quite
20 right. However, you could have supplemented this by saying that this
21 document was given to you by the Ministry of the Interior, you had asked
22 to have a copy from them, and you could have got up and said, "This is a
23 forged document," and so on and so forth. So you have to tell us what
24 the source of this document is, whether it comes from the archives, your
25 lawyers, or whoever may have given you these documents.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm convinced that the Prosecution
2 has had this material for quite a long time, but that's not the most
3 important thing.
4 Q. Do you have this document before you now, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. I still don't have it on my screen. Oh, there it is. All right.
7 Do you see that this is the official note of the
8 Sremska Mitrovica SUP?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you want me to read this, this first sentence, or would you do
12 A. You mean the first sentence:
13 "On the 29th of June, 1992, after the person suspected of the
14 murder of Mijat Stefanac from Hrtkovci were taken in - namely, Mladjen
15 Kekerovic, Momcilo Vidakovic, Branislav Kalinic, Pero Lukac, Petar
16 Zagarac, and Dragan Lazarevic - these persons have been processed in the
17 Crime Investigation Department. Their clothes were checked, as there was
18 a suspicion that on the trousers of Mladjen Kekerovic as well T-shirt of
19 Momcilo Vidakovic, there are blood traces.
20 Q. We don't need to go on further. Since Stefanac was killed on the
21 night between the 28th and 29th of June, isn't it clear that immediately
22 on the following day, the 29th of June, the policemen from
23 Sremska Mitrovica arrested six perpetrators of this crime?
24 A. This murder took place between St. Vitas's day and St. Peter's
25 Day, and I see from the documents that this was done, but I didn't know
1 about this earlier.
2 Q. Let's move on to the next document now. We see here that Mladjen
3 Kekerovic is being sent to detention. You see the text down there.
4 Perhaps I'll read it. Perhaps I can read it faster, and then you can
5 confirm whether I'm reading right or not. There is --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note: It is too fast for
8 MS. DAHL: Reading the document would put the interpreters
9 behind, and I cannot follow without the interpretation.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please try and slow down.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's not read it, then.
12 Q. Do you see in the first sentence that Mladjen Kekerovic is being
13 sent to detention because he had killed Mijat Stefanac from Hrtkovci?
14 A. There is no mention of Kekerovic here. There is Vidakovic,
16 Q. Have a look up there below the heading "Rjesenje," "Decision."
17 It says Mladjen Kekerovic, and then further down it says that he did it
18 together with Momcilo Vidakovic, right?
19 A. I don't see the name of Kekerovic anywhere.
20 Q. Do you see "Rjesenje" up on the top of the document?
21 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Sorry, I see it.
22 Q. So it is a decision stating that Kekerovic, Mladjen, is being
23 detained; and then further down, Vidakovic, Momcilo, is being named as an
25 A. Yes, I see all of that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have the next document now,
3 Q. Pero Lukac is also sent to detention. Do you see his name here
4 underneath the word "Decision"?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. However, the disposition is somewhat different because this is
7 the crime of violence imperilling the rights of citizens, so he is a
8 participant in the violence that preceded the killing. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let's move on to the next page now. Dragan Lazarevic was also
11 detained. Do you have the other page on the ELMO?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you have the papers before you? Can you please be so kind as
14 to leaf through it yourself so that we don't have to keep calling the
15 lady in all the time? She can put it all in front of you, and then you
16 can just leaf through it.
17 A. Please go ahead.
18 Q. Now we have a decision on the detention of Dragan Lazarevic,
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the disposition down here says why it is that he was
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we've seen all
25 these documents. What the Chamber is interested in is this : Whether
1 after the investigation there was a trial or not. This is what matters
2 to us, so -- whether the perpetrators of the murder were tried and
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if you're so impatient,
5 Mr. President, I have the judgement. If you leaf through these
6 documents, then you will see that, again, there is a decision on
7 detention, and then there is an on-site investigation report, and then
8 the judgement, which is page 16 in this set of documents. This is the
9 judgement of the District Court in Sremska Mitrovica.
10 Q. Have you found it, Mr. VS-0061? Have you found the judgement on
11 page 16? It says "16," and there is a handwritten numeral.
12 A. I can't find it here.
13 Q. The lady will help you. Page 16.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness. Stop. We
19 were in open session, so we'll have to redact some portions. I asked you
20 not to mention any names, nor to tell us what you do in life. We are in
21 open session. We shall redact this. We can make up for the mistake.
22 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Have you found page 16, please?
24 A. Yes. "In the name of the people..."
25 Q. Yes. "In the name of the people..." and then the judgement is
1 handed down. And then it says that the accused, Mladjen Kekerovic, and
2 then his information follows, correct? And then the second accused,
3 Momcilo Vidakovic, and then his personal details, and then the personal
4 details of the rest of the four accused, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then we have something concerning Mladjen Kekerovic. He is
7 guilty because on the 28th of June, 1992, having arrived in his vehicle,
8 Mercedes license plates, to Nikinci, to -- with Mijat Stefanac, for some
9 reason they were travelling in the car together, weren't they? And since
10 Stefanac asked him to drive him from Hrtkovci to Nikinci, and then they
11 went to a bar and they drank in a bar, and then there was a brawl in the
12 bar, and then -- please go to page 19, the handwritten 19 numeral. And
13 then it says that he is guilty of manslaughter -- of manslaughter.
14 This was a murder committed in a brawl between two people who
15 were drunk, and he was sentenced to four years and six months in prison,
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he's guilty of unlawful possession of weapon -- unlicensed
19 possession of weapon?
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Ms. Dahl.
21 MS. DAHL: For the Chamber's convenience, I have the 1992
22 indictment, the 1992 judgement of conviction, and the 1995 Supreme Court
23 confirmation of convictions for the crime of violence related to an
24 ethnic group. I have them in translation and wanted to tender. I made
25 copies. I didn't know if this was going to come up in cross-examination,
1 but I have a full set for the Chamber.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I ask the witness: Sir, do you know these
3 people who were convicted for the manslaughter of Mr. Stefanac?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I saw them,
5 but I personally don't know them.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you happen to know their ethnicity?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: So they were members of the Serb community?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They come from the Serbian nation,
10 Serbian community.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff, if I can assist you,
12 these people are not from Hrtkovci. They came to Hrtkovci on some
13 business, and they met with Stefanac. They wanted to sell a vehicle, and
14 then they got drunk in a bar and started arguing.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yeah. I was just trying to establish the
16 ethnicity because I think this is an issue which obviously is of some
17 importance to this question. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me get to the
19 point. With these documents, we have seen that those people who had
20 killed Stefanac were tried, and this was confirmed in 1995 by the Supreme
21 Court. Now, when you are interviewed by the OTP in 2006, in paragraph 32
22 you say that the murder was never resolved. So I'm dumbstruck by this
23 because there was a trial, people were convicted, and judgements were
24 handed down. The investigator, if he'd done his job properly, should
25 have known that an investigation had been carried out and a judgement had
1 been rendered.
2 So when you discussed this murder with the investigator, the
3 investigator knew nothing about this? Didn't the name ring a bell? What
4 do you remember? Because you, in your position, maybe you didn't know
5 that the perpetrators had been apprehended and convicted, but the
6 investigator according to his mandate must prepare a perfect case file,
7 that he discussed the issue of this murder without mentioning anything
8 that had happened and let you say that the murder had never been
9 resolved, I must say I am a little surprised by this.
10 When you were in contact with the investigator, do you remember
11 anything? When you said this, sir, didn't he say anything and he just
12 moved on to paragraph 32? Do you remember anything about this? Because
13 when we read paragraph 30, 31, and 32, something is being demonstrated
14 here, and there is a demonstration. And when there's been a judgement,
15 well, the two don't really tally. Do you remember what the investigator
16 told you at the time, or was it just plain sailing and nobody noticed
17 anything? And these were high-profile investigators. Do you remember
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I found
20 out that some persons had been convicted. I was not aware of the names.
21 Among all of these people, one of the guilty parties was convicted as
23 As for the killing of Mr. Stefanac, I was not aware of the fact
24 that the case had been resolved altogether. I had begged for forgiveness
25 a few moments ago. I did not know myself that it was a solved murder
1 case and that the murderer had been convicted, and then the gentleman
2 from The Hague Tribunal just stopped.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you learned about
4 it, but when? Before 2006? When did you find out that someone had been
5 convicted for this murder?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned about it in 2004.
7 However --
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You learned about it in 2004.
9 But when you're saying that the murder was not solved, that's not true.
10 When someone is convicted, the murder has been solved. So why do we have
11 this sentence in your statement? When you read -- when you reread your
12 statement, it says the murder was never solved. Obviously, it doesn't
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg for forgiveness. I have
15 already said that I'm glad that it was resolved. However, I was ignorant
16 of this. I thought that it had not been solved. I made a mistake, and I
17 kindly ask the Trial Chamber for forgiveness.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, one last question. You
19 know, I could go on for hours, but I have one last question.
20 When you signed your statement in your own language, handed to
21 you in your own language, did you very carefully reread all sentences?
22 Did you go -- scrutinize every word, every sentence before signing, or
23 were you just handed the statement and you just signed it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement was read out before
25 me, all of it, and I signed it without having a single document. They
1 didn't give me a single document for keep. What I signed at that moment
2 I believed was the most sincere thing possible. However, there seems to
3 be this omission, and I am sorry.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the interpreter read the
5 English version, and you listened to it, and then you signed. Very well.
6 Mr. Seselj.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know how much I
8 abhor closed sessions, but the question that I'm about to put now is one
9 that you will probably say can reveal the witness's identity, so I'd like
10 to draw your attention to that fact in advance. The question that
11 follows is a question like that, but I would be the happiest of all if
12 the witness had not sought protective measures. So -- well, perhaps
13 you'll consider this question to be one that merits private session.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move into
15 private session. Mr. Registrar, please.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 10058-10093 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, you may leave.
23 Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for everything.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're now in open
2 session. The Registrar is going to raise the blinds. It would be nice
3 to have a remote to do that.
4 Mr. Mundis.
5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 I rise to my feet simply to ask for an extension of the word
7 limit with respect to the Prosecution's response to Mr. Seselj's
8 submission number 394. I believe, if memory serves me, that response was
9 5.000 -- or that motion was 5.650 words. We would ask, respectfully, for
10 a similar word limit in order to file our response. That would be point
11 number 1.
12 Point number 2. It is my understanding --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Let me consult
14 with my colleagues on this one. I'm in favour of this, and on behalf of
15 the Trial Chamber I grant you this motion. So you can exceed the word
16 limit. But let me tell you, as I already said, I always grant these
17 types of motions.
18 MR. MUNDIS: And we are always grateful for that, Mr. President.
19 The second request would be concerning the same response. It's
20 my understanding that our response is due today. I would ask that we be
21 given one additional day. If that's acceptable, we will file that
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me consult with
24 my colleagues.
25 Yes. There, again, we grant your motion. We understand that you
1 are running into a lot of difficulties to be on time, and we grant you
2 this extension.
3 MR. MUNDIS: And, finally, as indicated earlier this week,
4 tomorrow I will be circulating by way of e-mail the updated list of
5 witnesses that remain to be called. What I have done is placed all of
6 the information on one table rather than two but made an indication
7 that's clearly marked on the document, and it's a self-explanatory
8 document. And that will be distributed no later than the close of
9 business tomorrow.
10 There are no additional changes with respect to the witness
11 calender for next week, so I would propose that I not recirculate that.
12 The calender as it was circulated last Friday remains in effect at least
13 with respect to next week, but I will be circulating the revised or
14 updated witness list tomorrow, and we will be responding to Dr. Seselj's
15 submission 394 --
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, it would be nice if
17 we had a colour chart because that way, you know, we can make a
18 difference between viva voce witnesses and the 92 ter witnesses, and a
19 colourful life is more pleasant than a sad and black-and-white life. So
20 please put some colour into your chart, if you may. I know that you can
21 do it.
22 MR. MUNDIS: It's absolutely in living colour, Your Honours, and
23 you'll have that tomorrow.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
25 As for next week, Monday there's no hearing; Tuesday is a
1 holiday, so we will only be sitting for two days, Wednesday and Thursday.
2 We're sitting in the afternoon.
3 Furthermore, how long have you set aside for the
4 examination-in-chief of this witness? Two hours equals a day, after all.
5 Ms. Dahl.
6 MS. DAHL: [Interpretation] Two hours.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that you will make a
9 record of when I showed goodwill and that when I need time, in turn you
10 would be just as generous towards my request.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I never doubted
12 your goodwill to make sure that these hearings run smoothly.
13 It was almost time to adjourn. I now wish everyone a good
14 afternoon. I want to thank Mr. Seselj's associates for having come to
15 this hearing. I hope that their financial -- the financial problems will
16 find a solution as quickly as possible so that we can see you again very
17 soon in this courtroom.
18 Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of
21 October, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.