Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10990

 1                           Thursday, 23 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.35 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-67-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, registrar.

11             This is Thursday, October 23rd, 2008.  I welcome Mr. Mundis,

12     Ms. Biersay, Ms. Dahl also.  On his right, I also welcome their case

13     manager.  And I greet Mr. Seselj.

14             We are here to continue with the cross-examination of our

15     witness, Mrs. Tabeau, but in the meanwhile I believe that the Office of

16     the Prosecution has a housekeeping matter to deal with.

17             MR. MUNDIS:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

18     Honours, to my learned colleagues, and everyone in and around the

19     courtroom.

20             Very briefly, there's a matter I feel needs to the drawn to the

21     Trial Chamber's attention.  Yesterday, before the commencement of the

22     trial, the accused provided the Prosecution with a copy of his most

23     recent book, "The Hague's Plucked Turkey:  Christine Dahl."  Because of

24     its offensive nature, I'm not going to ask the AV booth to show this

25     publication, but I do want to hand it up to the Trial Chamber and I ask

Page 10991

 1     you to please take a look at the cover of this book as well as briefly

 2     scan the contents.

 3             Your Honours, it's our submission and our position that the

 4     accused with the publication of this book has once again crossed the

 5     line.  This book, especially its title and its cover, are offensive and

 6     it's our view that this conduct is a deliberate affront to the dignity of

 7     these proceedings, and it must stop now.

 8             In accordance with his oft stated -- oft repeated statements, the

 9     accused's mocking the international Tribunal.  He is mocking this Trial

10     Chamber.  He is mocking the Office of the Prosecutor, he is mocking the

11     victims, and mocking the international community as a whole.  Outrages

12     such as this must stop, and the Trial Chamber must take steps to bring

13     this type of behaviour to an end once and for all.

14             I would now ask if we could please go briefly into private

15     session.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session.

18                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 10992-10995 redacted. Private session.















Page 10996

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, making this book a problem

 6     is quite simply not commensurate with these proceedings and bringing it

 7     up within these proceedings in trial.  If Mrs. Christina Dahl considers

 8     that she is been labelled and that any evil has been done to her, she can

 9     have me up for slander with the court in Belgrade.  She can file a

10     criminal report, although in Serbia for verbal abuse there are no prison

11     sentences that can be passed; it's just a monetary fine.  And she can

12     take me to court to seek compensation.

13             The political methods during this trial, that is to say, to

14     attack this book during the trial has absolutely no sense as well.  The

15     book was printed in 10.000 copies at the beginning of September, and you

16     cannot ban the book through the courts because it has been distributed

17     and almost all the copies have been sold out.  You can't send someone

18     from door to door to seize the books, nor do you know the list of

19     purchases.  And a large number of copies were handed out free of charge

20     as the Serbian Radical Party does.  Usually it hands out books free of

21     charge or otherwise sells them at a symbolic price.

22             So as far as the book is concerned, this Tribunal does not have

23     the authority to deal with the matter, nor is it in order to raise that

24     matter within these proceedings.  I handed over a copy of the book

25     yesterday to the Prosecution through the registrar because I wish to use

Page 10997

 1     the book while examining certain future witnesses.  Whether they are

 2     going to appear as Prosecution witnesses or Defence witnesses is a matter

 3     I'll have to decide in due course.  But I handed it over to the OTP

 4     yesterday.  I could have handed it over in September, but I was in no

 5     hurry to do so.  So I did that yesterday and I received just one copy,

 6     and a second copy arrived subsequently so that I was able to hand that

 7     one over later on.

 8             Now, as far as the title page goes or the cover of the book,

 9     that's up to the artistic vision of the person designing the cover.

10     Someone might find it abusive; somebody else might look upon it with

11     sympathy.  If somebody did something like that to me, perhaps I'd be

12     angry.  Perhaps I'd just laugh it off.  Perhaps I'd find it funny.

13             Now, Mrs. Christina Dahl's attitude towards the cover page is up

14     to her.  If she considers that she has been done and can claim damages,

15     then it's up to her to bring a lawsuit against me, but it comes under the

16     authority of the court in Belgrade and that's it.  That is the very end

17     of it.

18             Look at the list of books I've published to date, Mr. President.

19     Just have a look at what I said about certain judges of this Tribunal in

20     those titles.  Have the Hrtkovci affair book provided to you by the

21     Prosecution.  It's a big book, so I can't carry it around.  It's heavy.

22     But you have a list of all my books there.  See what I said about Judge

23     Alphonsus Orie.  I said much worse things than I did about Christine

24     Dahl.  I'm not going to read out the title, so you don't have to move

25     into private session.

Page 10998

 1             What about the Registrar Hans Holthuis, what I said, and what I

 2     said about Carla Del Ponte.  And what I said about that Justice Moloto,

 3     the Judge who asked in the Miletic trial, Why didn't you Serbs, when you

 4     weren't recognised by the Croats, didn't you go to Serbia where you are

 5     recognised?  And several other examples.  Judge Schomburg, for example, a

 6     whole title devoted to him, the title of the book, one whole book.

 7             So let them take me to court.  Let them sue me.  What I said

 8     refers to Christine Dahl is the mildest of my observations, and you can

 9     look at my collected works for that matter.

10             Now, are you going to try me because of the titles of my book?

11     All right, go ahead, try me for that, too.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let's stop here.

13     We have a witness and we have another witness listed for today.  The

14     Trial Chamber has heard you, has heard Mr. Mundis.  Let me return this

15     book to Mr. Mundis, because this was handed to the Prosecutor in the

16     first place.  What did you want to add, Mr. Seselj?

17             THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] Since you've brought up

18     administrative matters, two questions very briefly, ones that I'd like to

19     raise.

20             Yesterday I submitted to you a (redacted)

21     (redacted), that I received the day before yesterday.  I received it

22     properly through the prison administration, and I handed it over to the

23     registry so that it can be copied out for you.  I hope that you have

24     received a copy.  No, it's not that paper.  No, this is the one that I

25     handed in this morning.  Yesterday I handed over the letter so that it

Page 10999

 1     could be photocopied for the Judges and for the OTP.

 2             Today I brought in an order from the prison warden.  You have it

 3     in the English language, too.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move to private session.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in private session

 7                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 11000-11006 redacted. Private session.















Page 11007

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 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, since you were surprised

 7     yesterday by the fact that I have been denied telephones for telephone

 8     communication with my legal advisors, I brought in this letter by way of

 9     proof.  This is a letter from the prison warden sent to me on the 29th of

10     September, 2008.

11             On that day, on that evening, I had a scheduled conversation with

12     my legal advisors at 1800 hours, or at 1900 hours.  It doesn't really

13     matter.  I very properly asked the guard to have the line established and

14     I sat there and waited for 10 or 15 minutes and then the guard came with

15     the Registrar's letter and said that this became forbidden, conversations

16     from that telephone.  The same evening I received this letter from the

17     prison warden.  This is proof that I could no longer speak from that

18     particular telephone.

19             Before the 29th of September, on this list of telephone numbers,

20     in addition to Bojan Gajic, who is the consul of the Republic of Serbia

21     in Holland and who was in charge of us, The Hague convicts, he takes care

22     of some administrative matters for us or whatever else, there was just

23     the name of Slavko Jerkovic, too, on this list; that is to say, I could

24     not contact all my legal advisors in the case, only Slavko Jerkovic.

25     That is why I would have to schedule a meeting with Slavko Jerkovic and

Page 11008

 1     to say that the other members of the team should be in attendance as well

 2     and then we could all talk together.

 3             Well, from the 29th of September onwards, you see the date here,

 4     I have not been permitted to call Slavko Jerkovic from that telephone

 5     either.  Now I can only call Bojan Gajic, the Serbian consul in the

 6     Netherlands, and no one else.  That is what I told you about yesterday as

 7     well.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.  The document is

 9     very straightforward and the Trial Chamber will review it.

10             Let's have Ms. Tabeau brought into the courtroom.  Let me remind

11     you, Mr. Seselj, that you've already used one hour and 45 minutes.  You

12     have, therefore, 15 minutes left, but after consulting my fellow judges,

13     we decided to grant you 15 additional minutes.  In other words, you have

14     half an hour left.  I suppose there will be objections, questions by the

15     Bench, and I suppose we'll need to go until 10, until the break.  After

16     the break there may be some re-examination, I'm not sure.  But let's have

17     Ms. Tabeau brought in.  You have 30 minutes to complete your

18     cross-examination.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I needed more time, but if that is

20     your ruling, what can I do about it?  I did need at least an hour more

21     than the time that has been granted to me.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Tabeau.

24     Please accept our apologies.  You had to wait outside the courtroom, but

25     we had a number of housekeeping matters to deal with.

Page 11009

 1             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 2                           WITNESS:  EWA TABEAU [Resumed]

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] I'd like to continue the discussion about your

 5     sources, Mrs. Tabeau.  You used three basic sources - the book by

 6     Marko Kljajic, "The Parish Priest from Petrovaradin," based on

 7     information data from the records of the Hrtkovci parish office and

 8     information that you got from the Croatian authorities.  Now, you did the

 9     matching of that, and it was fairly unsuccessful from the aspects of what

10     you were looking at doing, matching of those three lists; right?

11        A.   Indeed, the matching rates were not very high.

12        Q.   Well, Mrs. Tabeau, why did you state here that the list of

13     Marko Kljajic relates to the period 1992 to 1993 when Marko Kljajic had

14     in mind a much longer period until the book was actually published and he

15     incorporates people who had moved out after 1995?  Are you aware of that?

16        A.   The list of 280 families you are referring to includes

17     individuals who left Hrtkovci in 1992, as far as I know.

18        Q.   But just individuals; right?  Now, when you had that book in your

19     hands and saw on the second cover that Marko Kljajic was a Roman Catholic

20     priest from Petrovaradin and that he had dedicated the book to the

21     well-known notorious criminal and war criminal Franjo Tudjman, did a red

22     light go on in your head?  Did you have any suspicions to the effect that

23     that book did not correspond to some moral or professional criteria and

24     the aspiration to reach the truth and so on?  Didn't it enter your head

25     it might be propaganda with a political goal in mind?

Page 11010

 1        A.   I didn't use the book in my study.  I used a list that was

 2     published in the book.  And I knew that the source for the list is VS-61

 3     and as such it was the same source as for parish records.  And knowing

 4     that the parish records were not fully complete, not all requests were

 5     registered in the book.  Naturally, this list was an expansion of the

 6     parish records that I also used in my study.

 7        Q.   Very well.  But you attach here a letter by Bishop Ciril Kos

 8     addressed to the Serb patriarch.  Didn't you wonder straight away and ask

 9     yourself, well, that it was obvious that they had a lengthy

10     correspondence and then ask to see their previous letters, the

11     patriarch's letters to Bishop Kos and other Croatian bishops, so that you

12     could see what all this was about?  Didn't you have any doubts and

13     suspicions that it's quite obvious here that there had been previous

14     correspondence and that the Serb patriarch appealed to the Roman Catholic

15     Croatian bishops to become involved and prevent the persecution of Serbs

16     by Tudjman's regime, and then at a point in time, Bishop Kos thought that

17     he had an argument to answer with the same measure and to tell the Serb

18     patriarch, It's not only that the Serbs are being persecuted over there,

19     the Croats are being persecuted over here.  Didn't that idea come to

20     mind?

21        A.   I didn't study the correspondence between these two churches.

22     What I was interested in was the statistical information that I needed

23     for quantification of the departures from Hrtkovci.  And at some point I

24     decided that parish records is the right source and the best source I

25     could use at that time for my study.  And my purpose was to assess this

Page 11011

 1     source and the related list of 280 families.  This is why I found the

 2     letter that was presented yesterday, together with the list, important

 3     and relevant.  It is just yet another confirmation that the list was

 4     making sense, was real, and could be taken as a source for studying in my

 5     report.

 6        Q.   Do you know that every parish office of the Roman Catholic church

 7     has a logbook, a protocol book, in which entries are made of the

 8     reception of all documents and in which any documents being issued are

 9     recorded, entries of that are made?

10        A.   Well, I don't know exactly what kind of logs the churches have.

11     I believe it would make sense to have a log of incoming and outgoing

12     correspondence.  If I --

13        Q.   But you should have consulted those logbooks because they can be

14     proof in evidence that, for instance, in May a certain number of

15     christening certificates were issued or marriage certificates or

16     whatever.  That would be a very good way of proving this.  And do you

17     know that in the records, the source records, no entries are made of when

18     copies are made from those records, that is, recorded in the logbook, not

19     in the records, parish records themselves?  And I think the situation is

20     the same in Poland or Holland.  When you are given a copy issued from the

21     -- of a marriage certificate or birth certificate, the very fact that

22     this copy has been issued and extracted, it's not recorded in the basic

23     records but in the logbook.  Am I right in saying that, Mrs. Tabeau?

24        A.   I think that the very important fact is that church book itself,

25     it is the primary document that really matters.  And it is important

Page 11012

 1     because in this document information about individuals is complete, for

 2     instance, when it comes to baptism, a child is first born.  There is a

 3     date of birth, place or date of the child, information about the parents,

 4     information about the christening, information about the godparents.

 5        Q.   This has absolutely no sense at all because we know that.  You're

 6     just wasting my time.

 7             MR. BIERSAY:  This is not for Mr. Seselj to comment on, the

 8     quality of the witness's testimony.

 9             THE WITNESS:  We know everything that is entered.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  If he could stop interrupting and allow her to

11     finish, we could probably get through this more quickly.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's for the Chamber to

13     eventually rule on the quality of a testimony of this witness.

14             Mr. Seselj, please put questions to the witness and let her

15     answer.  When it comes to the proper value of the testimony of this

16     witness, it will be for the Judges to decide.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But you see, Mr. President, what

18     I'm saying is this:  Nowhere in the records are the entries made that

19     extracts have been issued.  In certain countries, for example, extracts

20     have a three-month deadline and then you have to have a new extract

21     issued.  So the basic records do not contain entries of the extracts.

22     This is done in a logbook.  And the witness's answer to me is that she

23     describes all the entries made in the basic record, in the register, in

24     fact.

25             So I'm saying that they were -- that the Prosecution has been, I

Page 11013

 1     fear, instructed to waste as much time as possible in my

 2     cross-examination because I won't have time to ask all my questions if

 3     the witness irrationally uses up all my time and says things that have

 4     nothing to do with my questions.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Tabeau, Mr. Seselj seems to

 6     be suggesting that you did not quite answer his question.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Well, I want to finish what I started.

 8             So in these basic records there is information, the date of

 9     request, and in this way for me, for my statistical information,

10     purposes, this is what I exactly need, all the information there.

11             In addition to this, I have the list of the 280 families, and

12     this can be seen as some kind of overview.  It is an overview of the

13     families who most likely all requested the certificates.  I know that the

14     request in the books are incomplete and this is why it makes sense to use

15     the two things together.  I don't need any separate log of incoming and

16     outgoing correspondence made by this church.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Instead of drawing up the graph that is really rather

19     frightening, you could compile the graph even if you had only five

20     extracts being issued during the month of May.  But anyway, didn't you

21     ask yourself, since statistics is the science of large numbers, that you

22     were now in a situation where your figures, your numbers, were too small?

23     Seventy extracts issued in May, 17 in June; these figures are too small

24     for you a priori to think that they are telling.

25             The Petrovaradin Catholic priest Marko Kljajic and the priest

Page 11014

 1     from Hrtkovci could have sat down one afternoon and entered into the

 2     notes of the register all the data that you have taken as being true and

 3     correct.  Nobody would accept them just like that, accept their validity

 4     without testing them and checking them out; isn't that right?

 5        A.   Well, somebody instructed you, Mr. Seselj, to speak about

 6     statistics and big numbers in statistics, how important they are.  But

 7     you are mixing up things.

 8             This report presents empirically observed data.  It has nothing

 9     to do with estimating unknown parameters or unknown numbers.  The issue

10     of the sample size, how big it is, does matter in the statistical

11     estimation of unknown information about the population in this particular

12     case.  I do work with real observed data, and the numbers produced in

13     this report are minimum numbers.  So is Annex A, the list in Annex A, and

14     so are the distributions, the timing that I present.

15             So your point is simply invalid in this case.  And it is not true

16     that any observed events must be big in order to make sense.  If you

17     think a little bit of situations in epidemiology for instance, there are

18     diseases that the prevalence of which is really very, very low, so don't

19     speak about sample size.

20        Q.   Mrs. Tabeau, I'm a layperson where demography is concerned, but

21     don't tell me that I need instructions about the substance of the

22     statistical method.  I'm a doctor of science.  I study the methodology of

23     social sciences and I know what is meant by the statistical method.  And

24     the statistics of science is a science of large numbers only when -- and

25     only when it compares certain groups with large numbers can the result be

Page 11015

 1     reliable.  As soon as it boils down to small numbers, it is highly

 2     unreliable.

 3             But since you've gobbled up so much of my time and you did not

 4     heed my request, let's go to your expert report and Annex A.  And may we

 5     have it placed on our screens so that we can go through your list there

 6     and see just how serious your work has been.

 7             You compiled the list by matching up two lists of the state

 8     authorities of Croatia from a list compiled by Marko Kljajic, allegedly

 9     on the basis of information and data of the register in Hrtkovci.  And

10     I'm just going to point to a number of examples which speak of imprecise

11     unconsciousness and irresponsible work, and that is my initial thesis.

12     Now I'm going to ask you concrete questions in that regard.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the list brought up.

14     It is Annex A.  I now have the title page of the expert report, but I

15     need Annex A. I have it here if the court administration doesn't have it.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe it's at around approximately page 37 of

17     the report, to assist the registrar.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the annex to the report,

19     and additional section.  And the title "List of Persons that Left

20     Hrtkovci in Relation to the Events in May-August 1992," that's the title.

21     Can we zoom into that please, now.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Now, let's look at the first person on that list and let me

24     repeat the title.  "List of Persons that Left Hrtkovci in Relation to the

25     Events in May-August 1992."

Page 11016

 1             Akrap, Anto, is number 1.  He exchanged his property before those

 2     events and had a contract on the exchange which was recorded in Zagreb on

 3     the 10th of January, 1992.  And you have that piece of information in the

 4     Croatian authorities records; right?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, let's look at number 5, Akrap Marija.  Just like

 7     Akrap, Anto, the situation is the same, the 10th of January, 1992?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Tabeau, let's go back to

 9     number 1.  Mr. Seselj is submitting that this Anto Akrap would have

10     exchanged his flat.  This flat would have been swapped in January 1992.

11     If he makes a swap, he leaves, so why is it that he is noted down as

12     having left on December 15th, 1992?  Of course assuming that what

13     Mr. Seselj is saying is true, assuming, number 1, that there has been a

14     contract to exchange flats, and 2, that Mr. Anto Akrap did say that he

15     left in January 1992, because here we see December 15, 1992, the figures

16     don't match.

17             THE WITNESS:  Well, I said I don't have the information

18     Mr. Seselj has, so this is what was my answer.  It is -- I report what is

19     reported in the refugee tables from the Croat authorities.  And I don't

20     have the contract related to the exchange of houses, so I simply don't

21     know.  In my statistics, he is reported in December 1992 as having left

22     Hrtkovci.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Look at number 3, Ivan Akrap.  He reported that he no longer

25     resided in Hrtkovci on the 19th of January, 1982, and he moved to Zagreb

Page 11017

 1     and then he registered residency on Zagreb on the 2nd of February, 1982.

 2     You have this information in the secretariat of the interior of Serbia

 3     and you also have the list of the Croatia authorities that were submitted

 4     to you.  Did you have that particular information?  Number 3 on your

 5     list.

 6        A.   Well, you are speaking of Akrap, Ivan?

 7        Q.   Ivan.

 8        A.   He is reported in the list of family members that I received as

 9     additional to the list of 280 families, and in his record his first

10     registration in Croatia is even earlier in 1982.  I have no information

11     in this record about his property.  I don't know whether he exchanged

12     property or not.  I know that he most likely, according to the record,

13     worked temporarily in Croatia and had an address in Croatia already

14     before 1992.  If he had a permanent address in Hrtkovci, he is reported

15     in this record as having the permanent address in Hrtkovci.  So this only

16     means that he made a final decision in 1992 to leave the village.

17        Q.   Why did you check with the Serbian authorities to see that he

18     cancelled his registration in 1982?  He is the son of Anto Akrap

19     registered under number 1.  He was born in Hrtkovci in 1982.  He moved to

20     Zagreb and he lived there.  And then the 10th of January, in 1992, he was

21     joined by his father, having signed a contract for the exchange of

22     property.  So your very own information shows what kind of forgeries you

23     resort to.  His son lived without interruption in Zagreb from 1982

24     onwards, and now in view of the fact that the priest Marko Kljajic only

25     has a list of heads of households, since you know that he is a Kinsmen of

Page 11018

 1     this person, you artificially include him in this list of yours so that

 2     you would have a bigger list.

 3             Now, let's move on.  Number 2, Gordana Akrap --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Tabeau, the list that we

 5     have here is a list that was drawn up by Croatian authorities.  Number 3

 6     is Mr. Ivan Akrap, who is the son of Ante Ivan, so everyone should think

 7     -- one can think and infer that the whole family is leaving at the same

 8     time - mother, father, son, and so on.  But there's a problem with what

 9     we have on Ivan Akrap, and I did deal with this yesterday, I addressed

10     the problem yesterday.  We know that, in fact, he was registered in 1982

11     in Zagreb.  I said that yesterday.  And apparently he is living in

12     Zagreb, and it's his father that is coming to join him.  So putting him

13     on the list as a person that could potentially be an expelled Croat can

14     cast some doubt on this document.

15             Didn't you think, you know, at the time that maybe in a household

16     -- within a household some people in the household might already have

17     left Hrtkovci, and that in this case what should have been done is to

18     check on the City Hall registers whether his place of residence was

19     actually Hrtkovci, to be a hundred percent sure?

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question on this.

21     Yesterday we saw a document where we saw that there was -- he had a

22     residence in Hrtkovci until 1992.  Where did you get this information?

23     There's an address, too, if I remember well.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Tabeau, when you take

25     a look at this list made by the authorities, you see that the address in

Page 11019

 1     Hrtkovci is unknown.  If this person is a refugee, he should give his

 2     previous address, and here it says "unknown," whereas we have the address

 3     in Zagreb.  So this should have been checked.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Well, it is -- first of all, Akrap, Ivan is

 5     reported with three family members as number 1 on the list of 280

 6     expelled individuals from the book of Marko Kljajic.  There is an address

 7     there.  It is Lenova [phoen] Street, which is mentioned on the list, so

 8     obviously there is an address in Hrtkovci for this family.  And on the

 9     other list that was received from a totally different source, from the

10     Croatian authorities, there is no address in Hrtkovci.  Obviously, the

11     Croatian authorities didn't have the information about the address

12     because probably the information was not given to them.  I don't know

13     what is the source for this.

14             Well, it's further stated in the records from the Croatian

15     authorities --

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but with this type of

17     computation, when you add all the members of this 280 households, you end

18     up with 722 individuals.  But if Ivan Akrap was already residing in

19     Zagreb, he should not be included in these 722.  He is not a refugee.  He

20     was not expelled because of being frightened and so forth and so on.

21     There may be others that are in exactly the same situation.  I don't know

22     about this.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, two-thirds of the

24     names on this list are that way.  Two-thirds.  And I have many other

25     examples.

Page 11020

 1             THE WITNESS:  What I want to comment here, first of all, the list

 2     of 280 families represents 805 individuals.  For every family, the size

 3     of the family in Hrtkovci is reported.  There is an address reported in

 4     Hrtkovci.  So this list was not made up I believe because there are

 5     concrete pieces of information in there.  I don't say that everybody in

 6     1992 was living in Hrtkovci.  I said yesterday and I'm saying today, it

 7     was quite a common situation in the former Yugoslavia that people who had

 8     permanent address of residence in one place were working and living in

 9     another place.  And it was often done between people like here, living

10     with permanent address in Hrtkovci but actually residing in Croatia.  So

11     that is how it was.

12             But what does this mean?  If the rest of the family -- son was in

13     Zagreb, father and rest of the family or if not the entire rest of the

14     family, then some family members lived in Hrtkovci, well, how should we

15     consider cases of this kind?  Whether it was a person who can be

16     considered an expat or refugee or what, I believe these are people who

17     eventually decided to leave the village, decided to exchange or were

18     pushed into exchanging property --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, people.  We do not contest

20     the fact that people left the village.  Number 24, for example, in the

21     Colonel Gruzic's list, he has an address in Hrtkovci, so that's fine.

22     For a number of them there are addresses in Hrtkovci.  But we need to see

23     exactly when they left Hrtkovci, whether they left Hrtkovci before or

24     after May 1992.  That's one problem.

25             Secondly, the Croatian authorities do their job very well, like

Page 11021

 1     any other administration of course.  But when I check this document, and

 2     Mr. Seselj is saying that there's two-thirds of them, I see that for a

 3     great number of people there is no address for Hrtkovci whereas there is

 4     an address for Zagreb, which leads me to wonder whether these people

 5     weren't already residing there in Zagreb.  Why would Croatian authorities

 6     have the specific address for some and not for others?

 7             THE WITNESS:  The address is available for everyone, every

 8     family.  The address for Hrtkovci is reported on the list of 280

 9     families.  The list of family members is just an expansion of the list of

10     280.  There is the link between these two lists.  There is the family

11     head, so the address is reported on the first list for family heads, also

12     valid for all family members.  It really doesn't matter that on the

13     expansion of the list of 280 there is no address in Hrtkovci, because as

14     a matter of fact, the address is available from the other list, from the

15     list of 280.

16             These are families, family members I was checking when comparing

17     the list of family size.  So the family size is different when you

18     compare the size reported in the first list with the size reported in

19     terms of family members.  But the issue is complicated here --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, proceed.  We've

21     heard your explanation.  Thank you.  We are in a rush, so please

22     continue, Mr. Seselj.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In relation to what the expert said, I just wanted to say that

25     I'm just talking about residence, and that is a permanent category,

Page 11022

 1     whereas addresses are a temporary matter, and I'm not talking about that.

 2             Gordana Akrap, under number 2, she is a permanent resident of

 3     Croatia and has been so since 1973.  You have that in the list provided

 4     by the Croatian authorities, right?

 5             Then number 4, Kata Akrap, she deregistered in Hrtkovci in 1980.

 6     You could have checked that at the municipality of Roma, and you didn't

 7     even try to do that.

 8             Number 6, Petar Akrap, he was born in Zagreb on the 29th of June,

 9     1983.  At that time on the 17th of July, two weeks after his birthday in

10     1938, he was registered as a resident of Croatia.  He never changed his

11     residency.  You have it in your list provided by the Croatian

12     authorities.

13             Then Ankica Akrapovic, number 7, she never resided in Serbia,

14     rather in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and she registered on the 4th of

15     November, 1988, in Croatia.  She has been living in Umag, Croatia, since

16     then.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  I respectfully request that Mr. Seselj give the

18     witness an opportunity to respond to what is now just merely assertions

19     instead of compiling them in such a manner -- if he could do them

20     singularly, it would be helpful.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22             So he mentioned a number of cases.  Could you please answer now?

23             THE WITNESS:  Obviously Mr. Seselj has additional information

24     about these individuals that I don't have.

25             From my analysis of this data and familial relationship between

Page 11023

 1     the individuals reported on the first list and the individuals reported

 2     as family members, it was justified to include both the family heads and

 3     the family members in my list attached in Annex A.  If there is

 4     additional information that I don't have that Mr. Seselj has, then I

 5     would really like to see it, because if it is the truth, what he is

 6     saying, then obviously a number of individuals have to be taken out of

 7     the list.

 8             But having this discussion without having this information

 9     doesn't make much sense because I must answer that I don't have this

10     information, and in order to make informed decision, I need to see it.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have mentioned

12     some cases and very serious cases actually.  You seem to say there are

13     people that are on this list who had been who were no longer in Bosnia or

14     Serbia for decades and who had been living in Zagreb and suddenly they

15     appear on a list of expelled people.  That's extremely serious because

16     this could mean that these documents are forged.  So where did you obtain

17     this information, please?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 04225 is the

19     document that you should see, that's the 65 ter number.  It was provided

20     by the OTP.  That's where the information is contained.  Look at number

21     16, for instance.  Let me just help you.  Number 16 from the annex to the

22     expert report, Nada Akrapovic.  Please, on page 2 of this document,

23     according to 65 ter, you'll find the name of Nada Akrapovic somewhere

24     around mid-page.  It says in that document that she was born in 1948 and

25     that she lived in Belgrade - the address was Uzice number 4 - and that

Page 11024

 1     she moved to Croatia on the 22nd of February, 1994.  Since then she has

 2     been a permanent resident of Zagreb.  This is the list of the expert

 3     authorities, of the Croat authorities, that was provided to me by the

 4     Prosecution expert, you see that, and the OTP.  You see that the expert

 5     cannot find her way in her own documents.  She lived in Belgrade.  In

 6     1994 she moved from Belgrade to Zagreb.  Two-thirds of them are that way.

 7     May I proceed now?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, on this specific case,

 9     this person living in Belgrade and arriving in Zagreb in 1994, what can

10     you say on this person?  Mr. Seselj, can you tell us exactly the exact

11     page where we have this person?  This person living in Belgrade.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the Prosecution designation

13     04239016.  I may have misspoken.  96, this is one of the lists provided

14     by the Croatian authorities, the ones that I objected to yesterday and

15     then you said that they should be marked for identification.  So that is

16     the list providing more detailed information.

17             Have I been of assistance to you now?  At least a bit.  You have

18     three lists from the Croatian authorities.  The first one is the table

19     with the very fine print, the second one is yet another table, and this

20     is a list with more detailed information.

21             And now on page 2 of that list, around mid-page, it says Nada

22     Akrapovic lived in Belgrade; in 1994, moved to Zagreb.  I don't have any

23     information apart from the information that the expert witness has;

24     however, I use the same information from her successfully.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, on page 2, Nada

Page 11025

 1     Akrapovic, there's an address in Belgrade.  She was registered in Zagreb

 2     on February 2nd, 1994.  That's what is written and reported.  How is it

 3     that this happened -- how can we think that this person comes from

 4     Hrtkovci?  What is the link?

 5             THE WITNESS:  The link is through the Ivan Akrapovic who is

 6     reported as number 3 on the first list, 280 heads.  There are two

 7     Akrapovics - Akrapovic, Ivan, with six family members and Akrapovic,

 8     Ivan, with two - and they are both listed in the second list with the

 9     family members with Akrapovic Ivan, number 3, he is born on 11th of June

10     1974.  Address in Serbia is unknown to the Croatian authorities, and he

11     arrived in Croatia in August 1992 and has an address in Zagreb.  And the

12     other two --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I understand what you did.  You

14     took the family head Ivan Akrapovic who lived in Ruma and left for Zagreb

15     in August, and then you attached to this family head all those who were

16     in the list of the Croatian authorities and who have the same name, the

17     same surname.  But that's extremely dangerous and perilous or risky.

18     Because Nada, for example, Nada Akrapovic might be a member of this

19     family, might have nothing to do with all this.  She might not be

20     involved by all the events.  She might just decide to out of the blue to

21     go to Zagreb in 1994, so why make a link here?

22             THE WITNESS:  Who made the link?  That is the answer.  The link

23     was made by the Croatian authorities who checked in the population

24     register how many family members were associated with the family heads.

25     For me, I'm taking the first list, 280 individuals who are culled and

Page 11026

 1     expelled persons from Hrtkovci and whom I know they were expelled in 1992

 2     when they left Hrtkovci, departed from Hrtkovci in 1992.  And I associate

 3     additional information about them and family members as obtained from the

 4     population registered in Croatia.

 5             And I want to explain a few things about the population register.

 6     It is the dates of registration in the register that should not be taken

 7     as the actual dates of arrival in Croatia.  So this is why in our list in

 8     Annex A, we actually --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me stop you here.  Document

10     4225 is called "Information on Families Expelled from Hrtkovci."  So

11     anyone reading this would first read the title, see all these names, and

12     at first sight would say this represents a great amount of people

13     expelled from Hrtkovci.  That is what you could infer at first sight.

14     And then we'll find all that in the bar charts and in the statistical

15     tables.  But when you take a closer look at this, it doesn't always

16     match.  This Nada Akrapovic does not live in Hrtkovci, so you can't say

17     she was expelled from Hrtkovci.  She didn't live there.  Can't you agree

18     with me, yes or no?

19             THE WITNESS:  Not really because it is a matter of how you read

20     the record of Croatian authorities.  That she had an address in Belgrade

21     at some point, first of all, we don't know when was it.  I have no idea.

22     What kind of timing here is involved, that is one thing.  And as far as I

23     can see, she registered in Croatia in 1994.  Again, it doesn't tell me

24     exactly when she departed.  The only information about departure I have

25     is from the family member, from the family head, which comes from the

Page 11027

 1     first list.

 2             So it's not that the information from the population register can

 3     be taken as resembling the actual population movement.  And this I'm

 4     saying, people in the former Yugoslavia were not often working and living

 5     at the same place.  The list that we are talking about, the family

 6     members was submitted to us as an expansion of the first list, 280

 7     individuals of whom we know they were from Hrtkovci, of whom we know we

 8     have their addresses, and we know that they left Hrtkovci in 1992.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me look at another.  Take a

10     look at Ankica Akrapovic.

11             THE WITNESS:  Belgrade.  It can be seen that at the time she

12     registered in Croatia she had an address in Belgrade.  This could only

13     mean that she could have moved between 1992 and 1994 from Hrtkovci to

14     Belgrade and from Belgrade to Zagreb.  That is not at all uncommon in the

15     time of the conflict at all.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me take another

17     example.  Ankica Akrapovic.  Address is Kacuni, it's Kacuni.  Kacuni is

18     not Hrtkovci.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And she is recorded

21     on November 4, 1988.  I get the impression that when a family, when a

22     head of family left Hrtkovci, of the relatives attached to that family

23     who may be in Croatia, end up in Croatia.  And then we have a list and

24     the conclusion is that they were all expelled from Hrtkovci.  But when

25     you detail it all, when you look into details and look at all the

Page 11028

 1     different families, it's a bit different.  It seems to be more

 2     complicated than that.  You know, when you do your work properly as a

 3     judge -- do you agree with this?

 4             THE WITNESS:  I have a different opinion on this.  For instance,

 5     if you look at this Akrapovic, Ankica, and you look at the family head,

 6     it is Akrapovic, Stipo, one record earlier on the list.  And the address

 7     of Stipo is also in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  His arrival in Croatia is

 8     1993, as you see, and it is, in my eyes, perfectly possible that he left

 9     Hrtkovci in 1992 as reported on the first list, moved to

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and eventually from Bosnia he moved to Croatia.  And

11     because he was in Bosnia, he cannot be reported as a refugee because it

12     is already his second country of destination.  And in this case

13     absolutely impossible to include such a person as a refugee.

14             So what I'm trying to say, reconstructing the migration history

15     is a very difficult task.  This is why initially the plan for this

16     project was to compare the census data and to study the records of people

17     known not reported at the later census in the registers of displacement.

18     And this is a source that is most certainly relevant, but it shouldn't be

19     taken literally as the reported dates have a more complex context than

20     what we think should be in there.  This is all I can say about it.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I fully understand what you are

22     saying because in your theory, these people might have an address some

23     place and go through Hrtkovci at one point in time, which is why I asked

24     you yesterday whether you went to take a look at the registers in town

25     hall, whether you went to take a look at the tax records, tax registers

Page 11029

 1     to get, you know, a formal proof of all this.  But you told me that you

 2     did not check all these registers.  But we cannot draw conclusions if we

 3     don't have -- if we are not a hundred percent sure.  And I can only be a

 4     hundred percent sure if I have an address in Hrtkovci on this document.

 5     It's straightforward.  But if there's no address in Hrtkovci, this is

 6     going to cast doubt in my mind, of course.  I'm going to wonder whether

 7     things really happened like I'm told, like you are telling me, especially

 8     -- the title of the list is "Expelled People."  If these people were

 9     truly expelled, I need at least to know a hundred percent sure that the

10     person was residing there in 1992.  I'm sure you understand me.

11             I'm not going continue on this because it's 10.00.

12     Unfortunately, Mr. Seselj, you have one minute left.  Well, you have 15

13     minutes.  We had 15 additional minutes, so you will have 15 additional

14     minutes after the break, but please be fast.

15             Maybe Mrs. Biersay will have additional questions.  Mrs. Biersay,

16     do you think you'll have additional questions, yes or no?

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  For how long?

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I think I can do it in less than 15 minutes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have another

21     witness scheduled.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I'm not going

23     to waste any of our time with that second witness and as Biersay has said

24     she'll just take 15 minutes, may I be given a little more time now?

25     Because I really have some very important questions to ask, and I don't

Page 11030

 1     think any of the question that I've asked so far were insignificant.  You

 2     can't say that about any of my questions.  And we are dealing with an

 3     expert witness.  So I did make an effort to save time with many witnesses

 4     beforehand.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll try to do some math.  Our

 6     goal is to hear witness -- the second witness under Rule 92 ter, so just

 7     a few questions are put to this witness.  We will also want Mrs. Biersay

 8     to put some additional questions because she needs time for that.  We'll

 9     do some math over the break.  We will see if we can give you 30 minutes

10     instead of 15 minutes.  We'll check on this.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.27 a.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session

14     without Judge Lattanzi, who has to attend to some other business.  But

15     we'll proceed with the hearing according to the rules with the two other

16     judges of the Bench.

17             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.  According to my math, you have until

18     11.00, provided there aren't any objections.  The Judges will refrain

19     from asking questions in order for us to hear this witness and the

20     following witness.  Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mrs. Tabeau, take a look at the number 18, and you'll find the

23     name Alisa Andrasek.

24             She didn't move out of Vojvodina at all.  She moved from Hrtkovci

25     and set up residence in the neighbouring village of Platicevo.  And here

Page 11031

 1     she is in the pre-electoral campaign of the Serbian Radical Party for the

 2     local elections in the Ruma municipality.  She is involved there, whereas

 3     you have put her on the list of expelled persons.  Why?  That's number 18

 4     I'm referring to.

 5        A.   I don't have the information you have.  Perhaps if I had it, I

 6     would have changed my mind.

 7             But, Your Honour, if I may comment on the discussion we had just

 8     before the break.  I wanted to close this discussion with some other

 9     remarks, very brief, if I may.  I would like to direct your attention to

10     Table 13 in my report, page 26.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are wasting my time again,

12     Mr. President.  This is on my time, time that I was at pains to regain.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It won't be deducted from your

14     time, Mr. Seselj.

15             Please proceed quickly, Witness.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS:  This list contains an overview of the records in

18     Annex A, the 722 [indiscernible] accepted records for refugees; 116

19     address in Hrtkovci is all known and available.  For family heads

20     accepted, 266 addresses in Hrtkovci, known and available.  For family

21     members, 88 addresses uncertain.  Not for all.  It is a maximum that for

22     88 addresses in Hrtkovci wouldn't be available and known.  For a number

23     is unavailable, unknown.  Christenings and marriages 170, 82; address in

24     Hrtkovci, available from the church books.

25             So the answer that you were talking about relates to up to the

Page 11032

 1     maximum of 88 records.  The information from Croat authorities shouldn't

 2     be read as to point -- as pointing exactly to the dates of the departure

 3     and residence at the time times reported in this records.  The

 4     information was provided to us as available to the Croat authorities.

 5     Addresses and dates were reported in the past and relate to different

 6     time periods and not to the time period we are talking about, that is,

 7     1992.

 8             That is all I wanted to say, and I hope this is useful.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Science -- in science you just have to have reliable data.

12     Science doesn't cater to speculation, and this kind of speculation is

13     something that not even philosophy can take.  Maybe theology, but not

14     that either.

15             Look at number 34.  Baric, Ana moved to Austria before the war

16     and is still living there.  All the inhabitants of Hrtkovci know that.

17     Have you ever been to Hrtkovci, Mrs. Tabeau?

18        A.   I haven't.

19        Q.   You've never been and never tried to see and investigate matters

20     in the field?  All right.  Perhaps that comes within the scope of the

21     framework of the methods you have applied.

22             Now, the next name we have, 35, Ana Baric.  She is a permanent

23     resident of Croatia and has been from the 25th of May, 1970.  You will

24     find that in the list compiled by the Croatia authorities.

25        A.   Again, my comment is you shouldn't read this list literally,

Page 11033

 1     Mr. Seselj.  It is -- what matters is the personal information about the

 2     individuals, and the rest is not necessarily relevant and exactly as it

 3     should be taken.

 4        Q.   You can't know in advance, Mrs. Tabeau, what is relevant and what

 5     isn't.  You compiled and submitted your expert report and the annexes,

 6     and I am proving that that is unreliable, because if we were to take you

 7     at face value, that would support the indictment.  However, since I'm

 8     refuting the indictment, I'm refuting your report, too.

 9             Now, let's look at number 48.  That is Ljubisa Baric.  In 1974,

10     on the 1st of February, she moved from Hrtkovci to Preboj, and Preboj is

11     a town in Serbia, along the Drina river.  So had you checked this out in

12     the Ruma municipality, you would have had that information.  But since

13     you didn't travel there, then this priest from Petrovaradin seems to be

14     the main source of your information.

15             Now look at Petar Baric.  I assume that's her husband.  He moved

16     to Preboj on the 31st of January, 1974.  Number 37 on your list.

17             Now take a look at number 70, Katica Baricevic.  She appears on

18     your list twice.  Also number 464, she's the same person but changed her

19     surname to Paulic when she married.  You could have established that in

20     the marriages register in Hrtkovci.  Now, look at number 77.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, excuse me.  Was there -- what was the

22     question to Madam Tabeau with respect to the first one he mentioned?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have identified

24     a number of cases.  Please put your question to the witness now because

25     otherwise we are going to get lost and lose the thread and Ms. Biersay

Page 11034

 1     will object.  And then you can proceed with other examples.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Well, my question was implicitly contained in the observation.

 4     Why is Katica Baricevic on the list twice, having married and changed her

 5     surname?  Just to increase the number of names and numbers; right?

 6        A.   This is unjustified, what you are saying.  First of all, I didn't

 7     have the opportunities to check the records.  Then I could answer.  But

 8     more generally, I would like to say it is not that I wanted to increase

 9     the size of the individuals listed.  I explicitly say in my report the

10     list might be first incomplete, but on the second hand, it can also

11     contain duplicates because the information of such individuals is not

12     complete, certain pieces of information were not there.  I note even

13     approximately 40 potential duplicates that are now included in the list.

14     Of these 40, I know a number are not duplicates because even though they

15     are listed with identical names, they have different addresses in

16     Hrtkovci.

17             So my marking of potential duplicates should be seen to you as

18     being honest and not inflating the size of the list.  I think I did it

19     conservatively because I know that a number of these records are not

20     duplicates, but I still mark them as potential duplicates in the list.

21     So I think you should read my report very carefully and then you would

22     see that it is not what I'm doing, what you are saying.

23        Q.   I hope, Mrs. Tabeau, that it has become quite clear to you what I

24     think about your honesty.  So let's leave that subject to one side.  I

25     don't want to speak about that now.

Page 11035

 1             Now, look at number 77 and 78.  You took one and the same person

 2     and that person's name is Gabor Bartok.  And then with number 78 you put

 3     Gavra Bartok, as if it's a female, whereas it's the same person, the same

 4     man.  His name is Gabor and his nickname is Gavra, given to him by the

 5     Serbian community where he lived.  Gavra is a male name, a man's name,

 6     not a female name.  Perhaps it is exists somewhere.  But anyway, you list

 7     one person in two places, and in the first place you say it's a man, for

 8     sex, and in the second one, you say woman, whereas -- and the date of

 9     birth is the same, whereas no twins like that were born ever in Hrtkovci;

10     isn't that right?

11        A.   Well, I'm not sure at all that Gabro and Gavra is one and the

12     same person.  To me these names are different.  And I have a native B/C/S

13     speaker in my unit who was looking at the names and who decided whether

14     or not the names can represent one and the same person or not.  My answer

15     is perhaps you know more about it than I do.  But from the names I

16     wouldn't decide these are exactly the same person.

17        Q.   But you didn't check it out on the ground, in the field, nor did

18     you go to the official state registers to check that out.

19             Now, take a look at number 82, Lucija Batista.  Everybody in

20     Hrtkovci knows that she's been living and working in Germany since before

21     the war, so how come you put her on this list?

22        A.   Well, yet again, it  telling me things based on common knowledge

23     or source that I don't have at my disposal.  In order to be able to

24     respond to what you are saying, I would need these additional

25     information.  That is all I can say about it.

Page 11036

 1        Q.   Well, you should have checked it out so that you can stand by

 2     every name that you put on the list.  You should have investigated.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Tabeau, if we look at the

 4     case of Ms. Batista who, according to Mr. Seselj, is currently working in

 5     Germany, we may suppose that through his own investigators, he checked

 6     that very fact.  That's what he found out after conducting an

 7     investigation.  I don't have the relevant documents, but I would find it

 8     difficult to believe that he could state something completely false,

 9     because if it appears that this lady does not work in Germany, then it

10     would mean that Mr. Seselj had lied.

11             Of course I understand that you were not in a position to check

12     this particular information.  It may very well have been that the OTP

13     should have conducted such checks, but it was not done.  That's all we

14     can say about this matter.  But you did not exclude the possibility of

15     duplicates or mistakes in these lists; you've stated that yourself and we

16     take due notice of that.  But if what is being said about Mrs. Batista is

17     correct, then it appears that this lady could not have left Hrtkovci as

18     an expellee.  Would you agree with that?

19             THE WITNESS:  Now, is it possible -- then how is it possible --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just add one

21     thing.  Not anywhere on the list of the Croatian authorities --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let the witness complete her

23     answer.

24             THE WITNESS:  This is that this person has reported based on the

25     parish books, christening records, and I'm asking myself why this person

Page 11037

 1     would request for the certificate on the 16th of May, 1992.  Well, I did

 2     not investigate this case in Germany, I must admit I didn't, as I didn't

 3     investigate all other cases.  That is an impossible task for a person

 4     like me.  I have to rely on some resources, statistical resources, and

 5     this is how this report was made.

 6             But if Mr. Seselj has additional information which I will find

 7     reliable, I'm prepared to revise the list.  It is the only answer.  It is

 8     not that I think this report was made to help understand what happened in

 9     this village, and I still see this report as such.  The only purpose of

10     my work is to bring a better understanding.  So whatever more information

11     is available, I will most certainly take it into account and revise Annex

12     A and whatever else is necessary.  That's all I can say.  As of now I

13     haven't received anything that I can work with.  That is where we are

14     today.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   But it never crossed your mind that two Catholic priests very

18     nicely forged information within the campaign that was carried out.  You

19     simply take everything from them at face value; right?

20             Look at 93, Martin Begic.  In 1970 he moved from Hrtkovci to

21     Sabac.  Had you checked in the municipality of Ruma, you would have found

22     proof of that; namely, his deregistration in the municipality of Ruma.

23     Martin Begic.  But you didn't check anything, did you?  And since he is

24     not on the list of the Croatian authorities, wouldn't that be an

25     indicator to you to become suspicious of what the priests gave you?  Am I

Page 11038

 1     not right?  Just say yes or no and let's move on.

 2        A.   You are not right.  In my eyes, it was not my task to investigate

 3     every single person.  If I would have to investigate, for instance,

 4     Srebrenica victims, I would be busy investigating the first 1.000 victims

 5     as of now and there would be a few more thousand to go.  So that is not

 6     the way -- how things are done in these days, Mr. Seselj.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's take the example of

 8     Begic.  According to Mr. Seselj, he left Hrtkovci in 1970.  I'm not sure

 9     if this individual requested a christening or marriage certificate, but

10     let's assume that Mr. Seselj and his investigators find Mr. Begic and ask

11     him whether he filed an application for a christening certificate.  Let's

12     assume that Begic responds, I've never requested a baptism certificate or

13     christening certificate.  What would be the impact of this from a

14     statistical perspective?

15             THE WITNESS:  Well, I think it is, first of all, not realistic to

16     believe that parish records are made up, so I think that the information

17     from parish records is detailed and correct.  And there is a note of

18     Mr. Begic's request for certificate on the 28th of May, 1992, so this is

19     what we see in the records.  What would be the impact here?  Yes.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, yes.  Yes, we

21     have a record here showing that he made that request on the 28th of May,

22     1992.  But when you are a judge worth his salt, when you do your job

23     properly as a judge, and that's what I hope to be doing, you need to

24     check things and you need to check first if Mr. Begic, indeed, made that

25     request on the 28th of May, 1992.  If he made that request, fine.  But if

Page 11039

 1     he did not requested such a certificate, then we have a question posed

 2     about this register, this parish book and this record and this entry in

 3     the register.

 4             Mr. Seselj, please proceed.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You mentioned Srebrenica.  You appeared there as an expert

 7     witness, too, and you took part in falsifying the information concerning

 8     the number of executed prisoners in order to create a background for

 9     declaring genocide.  This is how you did it:  You included more than

10     1.000 persons on the list of executed persons who had actually lost their

11     lives before 1995; then also you included many persons who lost their

12     lives during the breakthrough from Srebrenica to Tuzla; then you also

13     included the victims of the inter-Muslim fighting; and then you resorted

14     to different statistical finesse, and one is proverbial, comparing the

15     1991 census from there and the 1997 election lists or lists of voters.

16     You did all of that in order to artificially increase the number of

17     victims in Srebrenica and to create a basis for declaring falsely the

18     genocide had been carried out there.  That's right, right?  Okay.  Now we

19     move on.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this objection is

22     sustained.  We are not dealing here with events that happened in

23     Srebrenica, Tuzla, and so on and so forth, and not expected to rule on

24     this.  Our expert witness is here to testify solely on the study she

25     conducted about Hrtkovci, and it's solely on that basis, on the basis of

Page 11040

 1     that report, that we should decide whether the work was conducted

 2     properly, whether it should be completed or not.  That's all.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   All right.  Number 96, you have Tomislav Begic, and on the 10th

 5     of October, 1991, he was in Zagreb and he registered his contract to

 6     exchange immovable property.  Why didn't you check that in Zagreb?  You

 7     just have his first registration here, the one that took place almost a

 8     year later in 1992.  However, he registered his contract on the exchange

 9     of immovable property already in 1991.  Isn't that right?

10        A.   Well, if you give me this contract, exchange contract, then I can

11     tell you more about this case.  Again, it's your reading and your

12     interpretation of the data provided to us by the Croatian authorities,

13     and I have a different interpretation and different perspective on this

14     data.

15             So I think before you can draw any conclusions at all, you have

16     to submit the additional information that you have that would support the

17     conclusions you are drawing from this data.  As of now, I absolutely

18     don't accept what you are saying.

19        Q.   Now, you would have had that contract on your screen had I not

20     been dis-communicated from my associates.

21             110, Blazic, Ana Blazic, she never moved from Hrtkovci.  She died

22     there in 1999.  And you could have established that in the death register

23     in the municipality of Ruma, not with those preachers of yours in Ruma.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let's return to

25     this contract, assuming that there is such a contract, and if you mention

Page 11041

 1     it, I suppose that you checked that.  This contract was drawn up in 1991,

 2     so that person may have left for Zagreb in 1991.  Therefore, it is not

 3     related to what happened in 1992.  But Ms. Tabeau is right in saying that

 4     nothing proves that this person was still -- was not in the village.  So

 5     you are right and she is right.  What should have been done is check with

 6     Tomislav Begic exactly when he settled in Zagreb.  This should have been

 7     checked by the OTP, by the Defence maybe, but as things stand, both of

 8     you are right.  It's extremely difficult to decide which way to go.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   All right.  I'm always in favour of believing the Prosecutor and

12     the OTP because they are the truth-loving people in this Tribunal.

13             Why did you include this person under number 110 in your list

14     when she never moved out of Hrtkovci and she died in 1999?  You don't

15     even know that she died, right?  Because you didn't carry out any kind of

16     onsite investigation.  You never consulted the official books there and

17     registers, right?

18        A.   If she died, I would have seen a record of her death in the books

19     and I would have taken this record for my database, so that would be if

20     she was part of the Catholic church, registered simply in these books.

21        Q.   You did not consult the death register at all.  The death

22     register is kept by the municipality of Ruma, not by the church, and it

23     is not the obligation of every Croat to be a Catholic or to be buried

24     according to religious rights.  That is yet another reason for the

25     unreliability of your church records.  There's only one proper source and

Page 11042

 1     that is the death register of the municipality of Ruma.  We are not in a

 2     theocracy to proclaim church records as official records, and we have

 3     seen how preachers can falsify that in a single afternoon.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  If Mr. Seselj could just restrict his comments to

 5     questions instead of lecturing the witness, we could be done with this.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]  All right.

 7        Q.   Number 112, Antun Blazic.  You put him on the list of allegedly

 8     expelled persons whereas he never moved out of Hrtkovci.  He died in

 9     Hrtkovci in 1999, and that was registered in the death register in the

10     municipality of Ruma.  And you don't even have that piece of information,

11     right?

12        A.   No, sir, you know that I didn't use the death register, and if I

13     had a record in the parish books -- and I would have the record in the

14     parish book if he died and was buried in the Catholic church, and I would

15     most certainly exclude him from the list.  But you said he died in 1991,

16     right, in Hrtkovci, so he never left, so you are saying that --

17        Q.   1999.  9.  1999.

18        A.   Yes, this is what I said, 1999.  But your point is that there are

19     people who never left Hrtkovci and are on the list.  Well, it is possible

20     there are people who never left Hrtkovci on my list.  There might be a

21     few.  But on the other hand, if you look at the census in comparison to

22     the size of the Croat population, then you see that 250, 250

23     approximately are still there.  Whether they are the same persons, I

24     hope, yes.  That not everybody left the village, but I don't know because

25     I didn't study this, who was going, who was staying in Hrtkovci.

Page 11043

 1        Q.   Don't turn things the other way around.  I'm not challenging the

 2     fact that many Croats left Hrtkovci having exchanged their property, but

 3     your list about them is highly unreliable so these are two completely

 4     different matters.  Your heading here should have been "The List of

 5     Persons who had Certificates of Birth or Marriage Issued to Them," not as

 6     you did.

 7             Vesna Blazic, 116.  In the meantime she got married and now her

 8     last name is Vujicic.  Obviously she is married to a Serb.  She lives in

 9     the neighbouring village.  She never left Vojvodina, and to this day, she

10     works as a teacher in Hrtkovci.  Vesna Blazic, number 116 on your own

11     list, she is a teacher in Hrtkovci to this day.  This is not quite

12     reliable.  I think that she is also a member of the Serb Radical Party,

13     but I'll check that.  Why did you put her on the list?

14        A.   Because she is in the christening records, and she requested a

15     certificate in 1992.  This is why I put her on the list.  Why would she

16     do that, I don't know.  Perhaps she, after all, changed her mind.

17     Obviously in 1992 she requested a certificate.  After all, she wasn't

18     feeling that safe if she made this decision to be prepared for living.

19     So this is how the parish records should be read.  This is the --

20        Q.   You have no proof whatsoever of her having asked for a

21     certificate.  The fact that some preacher later on recorded it, that is

22     not proof that she actually asked for it, whereas you should have

23     investigated on the ground.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if we look at 116,

25     the case of Vesna Blazic, apparently your associates conducted a number

Page 11044

 1     of investigations about this person.  It would appear that she is now a

 2     teacher in the same village.  All right.  She may even be a member of

 3     your own party.  All right.  But if that's the case, what prevented you

 4     and your team from going to see that lady to ask her whether indeed in

 5     1992 she requested a christening certificate?  Two things may have

 6     happened.  She may have said, I requested a certificate for such and such

 7     a reason, or secondly, she may have said, I never made that request.  Why

 8     didn't your investigators conduct -- do that?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My investigators probably already

10     took care of that.  But for a month now I haven't had any communication

11     with them.  Even when they start telling me something in relation to this

12     trial, I stop immediately.  I say, No, no, don't talk about that.  We are

13     being eavesdropped on.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Ruzica Bogovic is someone who you placed on your list twice, 128

16     and 691, but under her maiden name Velez.  You could have established

17     that in those preacher books of yours, of marriages.  So it is 128 and

18     691.

19             Then 133, since this is a duplicate as well, I'll link it up.  It

20     says "Mirjana Damjanovic," who also appears under number 513 as Mirjana

21     Radocaj.  Why did you --

22        A.   I am sorry.  I'm unable to follow these records because

23     Mr. Seselj is proceeding so quickly.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  And I'm standing up to ask the Court to require

25     that Mr. Seselj pose a question to the witness instead of testifying,

Page 11045

 1     which is essentially what he is doing.  We would also strongly object to

 2     any reliance on Mr. Seselj's assertions, factual assertions, about the

 3     status of these people absent any records provided to either the witness

 4     or to the Prosecution.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I've already told

 6     you, in order to avoid objections by the Prosecution, you have to put

 7     questions to the witness.  For example, Witness, I'm looking at the case

 8     of number X on the list and I find such and such thing, and so on and so

 9     forth.  Please put actual questions to the witness and to avoid wasting

10     time.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I pointed out that I

12     want to link up two cases because they are identical in terms of the

13     nature of the forgery involved, because the same persons appear on this

14     list twice but under different surnames because they got married in the

15     meantime.  The first one got this new last name, Velez, and then the

16     other one got the last name of Radocaj.  I've given the numbers already.

17     Let me move on to the next question because this I've done in vain.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Number 172, you have Zlatko Damjanovic.  According to my

20     information, he is abroad in Germany.  He lived there from before the war

21     and he registered his residency in Croatia on the 11th of November, 1999;

22     that is to say, from Germany he went back to Croatia and registered

23     there.  You have him on the list of Croatian authorities.  Why did you

24     put him on the list of expelled persons from Hrtkovci?

25        A.   Because I didn't have your sources, Mr. Seselj.  And as long as I

Page 11046

 1     don't have these sources, I can't say anything.  I'm still having trust

 2     in the sources I use and in the records I place on my list, and I can

 3     only say when I will receive additional information I'm able to revise

 4     what I presented.  That's all.  I'm not taking your words for granted,

 5     sorry, but you have to give me something.

 6        Q.   Well, yes, I have this list that you gave to me, the list by the

 7     Croatian authorities.  You can see Zlatko Damjanovic there, first

 8     registered in the Republic of Croatia on the 11th of November, 1999, in

 9     Bjelovar, Tomar Bakrav [phoen] Street, number 38.  There you have the

10     information.  You could have checked that out in your own documentation

11     had you been conscientious in fulfilling your task.  Have you found him?

12        A.   I think you're wrong in saying I had information on Zlatko

13     Damjanovic from the Croats.  He reported on the basis of christening.

14     Damjanovic, Zlata is a refugee.

15        Q.   Come on, please.  Here he is on the list compiled by the Croatian

16     authorities.  Here he is on the Croatian list.  The last two figures, 29,

17     you can see that for yourselves, Judges.  What we've already looked at,

18     29 are the last digits.  And the number -- it's under number 54.  And I

19     should assume it should be 54 after that as a family member.  In 1999 he

20     was registered in Croatia.

21             Furthermore, why on the list do you have 189 as being Antun

22     Engert?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  For

24     Zlatko Damjanovic, in the Croatian document, he has an address in

25     Hrtkovci.  Nazoro Street, number 26.

Page 11047

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, Mr. President.

 2     But in 1999 he moved to Croatia.  In 1999 you have the information right

 3     below that.  They have not got the information that he worked in Germany,

 4     so that's my additional information, that he worked in Germany from

 5     before the war.  But in 1999 he came to reside in Croatia, and that's

 6     what it says there, too.  I'm not challenging the place of birth, his

 7     place of the birth.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Tabeau, above there's

 9     Zlata.  This person must be a relative.  I see that Zlata is born on

10     March 6th, '24, whereas Zlato is born in 1950.  So Zlato is probably

11     Zlata's son.  However, if Zlata lives in Hrtkovci, the Croatian

12     authorities maybe put his residence in Hrtkovci, even though he is

13     working in Germany.  Could that be an explanation?

14             THE WITNESS:  Of course this can be an explanation, but we don't

15     know what the Croat authorities really did when it comes to addresses and

16     dates.  He is included in my list based on christening records, not on

17     the records of the Croatian authorities or the records from the refugee

18     tables.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, a judge could infer,

20     could have the following explanation:  This Zlata leaves Hrtkovci on July

21     14, 1993.  We don't know when he left, but he is registered on July 14,

22     1993.  Now, maybe Zlata at that point in time asked the priest for all

23     christening certificates of the entire family, of the entire household,

24     and he was provided with these certificates.  And his son Zlato, who

25     according to Mr. Seselj works in Germany, would have left Germany in 1999

Page 11048

 1     and would then be registered in Croatia in 1999.  That would be one

 2     explanation of all this, which would mean also that Zlato had not been

 3     expelled from Hrtkovci.  Maybe his father was but not him.  Otherwise,

 4     the Croatian authorities would have recorded him on July 14th, 1993, both

 5     father and son.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Well, it is one of the complex cases for which we

 7     don't know the migration history and, well, according to the approach

 8     taken in my report, Zlata and Zlato are reported from two different

 9     sources.  Zlato is a refugee.  He's taken based on the christening.  I

10     don't want to speculate about the migration history.  But, again, it is

11     if the --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a problem with the

13     other brother, Zdenko.  He is recorded on September 24, 1996.  I don't

14     know where he lived, where he was, but there could also be a problem with

15     him, with Zdenko.  However, Rijana [phoen], who might be the daughter,

16     was recorded on February 18.  Then there's Adrijan, another relative, who

17     is recorded on August 27, 1999.  So it's quite complex.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is what I'm saying.  It is a complex

19     situation.  If you look, Your Honours, on the address in Hrtkovci, it's

20     all the same address.  Obviously it is a family living in one and the

21     same place in Hrtkovci.  And it is possible that some members of the

22     family --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  Let's

24     assume the father lives in Hrtkovci but all the others might be scattered

25     anywhere else.  So who is expelled here?  It's the father, not the other

Page 11049

 1     members since they are elsewhere.  Unless you decide that when expelling

 2     one -- the father, you expel the entire family, even if some relatives

 3     live in Canada at the time.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Why, under 189, did you put the name of Antun Engert when he died

 6     in Hrtkovci in 1991?  And his death was recorded in the register of

 7     deaths in Ruma municipality.  E-n-g-e-r-t.  Because those preachers gave

 8     you that piece of information.  Perhaps that priest was under the

 9     influence that day when he provided you that data, and you're taking it

10     as all being true and correct.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Biersay.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Mr. Seselj asked:  "Why, under 189, did you put the

13     name of Antun ..."  Could the witness please be allowed to answer?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please answer.  It seems

15     that this person died in 1919, so why is it on the list?

16             THE WITNESS:  There was no record in the death -- parish book of

17     the death, and he is reported in my list based on the request for

18     marriage certificate that was made on the 7th of June, 1992.  That is the

19     answer.  And I didn't check the death registration in the municipality of

20     Ruma, and according to Mr. Seselj, if I had done this, I would have

21     information about the deaths.  I believe that deaths are also

22     parallel-registered in the parish books.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But there's danger in focusing

24     only on the church records.  If this person died in 1991, maybe a

25     relative, a son or daughter, for problems that have to deal with

Page 11050

 1     inheritance or other problems, might need a certificate, and then goes to

 2     the church to ask for this church record on June 7th, 1992, and you can

 3     draw the conclusion that he had asked for this certificate because he was

 4     being expelled.  You could draw this conclusion.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe my fellow Judge had a

 7     question to put.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  In fact, I had the same problem and

 9     the same question to you that the Presiding Judge just put to you,

10     because it seems to me, in reviewing the parish list, that of course the

11     parish list is not complete, and you have stated this at several

12     locations in your report and during the testimony here.  I think that is

13     a fact that is easily accepted by the Chamber.  The difficulty, however,

14     comes from the title of the document, because the title seems to suggest

15     that the people who are mentioned in the list actually left Hrtkovci, and

16     that is a conclusion that may not be warranted necessarily by the fact

17     that Croats in Hrtkovci required from the priest certain certificates,

18     either of birth or marriage or whatever.  That is the shortcoming that I

19     see in the importance and significance of this list.  Can you give us a

20     brief comment on that?

21             THE WITNESS:  Well, it is in the church records, the dates for

22     requests, I said several times should be seen as proxies for certain

23     decisions related to the departure.  It is not that the decision to be

24     ready to go is exactly the same as just going.  And as I said earlier in

25     my testimony, I didn't see -- or documents or myself -- buses taking

Page 11051

 1     these people away and soldiers escorting these people to the border, so

 2     it is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying this is a good proxy for the

 3     decision, and it's possible that some of these people didn't even leave

 4     the village, but a majority of them did because this is what we see from

 5     other sources as well.  And it is a matter of the timing of the

 6     departures.  Ideally we would like to see a data of the dates when these

 7     people were going away and places where they went to, but that is not

 8     possible.  I don't have this data.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I accept that.  I accept that fully.  Of course

10     we will give the weight to this list that we will determine in the end.

11     The only problem is that the title of the document suggests that these

12     people actually left and so that's why I feel that the title of the

13     document is slightly misleading.

14             THE WITNESS:  I understand, yes.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think this is also Mr. Seselj's point.

16             THE WITNESS:  I think that is an issue here.  The issue related

17     to the fact that physically these people who are reported on the list,

18     not all were at Hrtkovci at the time of the events and I'm not saying

19     they were all there, physically speaking.  However, here is the question:

20     If there is a family that is composed of six people, there is a mother,

21     father and four children, and two of these children are studying, one in

22     Belgrade and one in Zagreb, two others are working, one in Bosnia and one

23     somewhere in Vojvodina, not necessarily in Hrtkovci; there comes 1992,

24     the political situation becomes unstable and difficult, and the family,

25     the parent physically being there, decides it's time to go because it is

Page 11052

 1     too risky to stay.  Then a decision is made as a matter of fact for the

 2     entire family.  The question not to me but I'm afraid to Your Honours and

 3     to this Chamber is how to --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't agree with what you are

 5     saying.  If the father and the mother decide to leave, they decide for

 6     themselves.  It's their decision.  If their children are minors, fine, I

 7     agree with you.  But if their children are adults and live and work

 8     elsewhere, you cannot claim that because the father and the mother

 9     decided to leave, the entire family left.  I cannot agree with this

10     interpretation because I believe it goes too far.  They can take a

11     decision for a minor, that's fine, but they cannot make a decision for

12     their relatives who are adults who might be living in other cities, who

13     might be in other places, and who might not have made the same decision

14     had they been in Hrtkovci.  We don't know anything there.  I believe that

15     with your interpretation, you inferred that if the head of the household

16     decided to leave, the entire family left.  So I'm saying, Okay, for

17     minors but not for adults, because I believe there is a problem.

18             Mr. Seselj.

19             THE WITNESS:  May I add one comment?  There is the issue of the

20     family, and there is intergenerational transfers.  It is a very

21     well-known fact that people who were working in western countries were

22     transferring money, and a lot of it, to families back home, and houses

23     and property was mainly coming from these extra sources.  And the same

24     with children.  It is not that the children are able to finance

25     themselves when studying.  So the families, I think in the western

Page 11053

 1     family, it is indeed minors, end of story.  But we are speaking of a

 2     family in a totally different environment.  We are speaking of a family

 3     in a little village, Hrtkovci, in a country which is exceptional among

 4     all post-communist countries.  You are speaking of a country when the

 5     borders were open since the beginning of the 1970s, and people were

 6     travelling freely were making money and bringing money a lot of

 7     properties were paid with this money.  So the family is different.  It's

 8     the traditional family.  It is multigenerational families living in the

 9     one house.  The house belongs to the entire family.  This is my rationale

10     behind this list.  So I didn't want to mislead anybody.  But we are

11     speaking of a totally different family situation here compared to western

12     countries.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is absolutely not true.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Why, under number 263, did you put the name of Kata Ilic, when up

18     to 2003 she lived in Opovo [phoen]?  That is also in Vojvodina but in a

19     region called Banat.  And on the 27th of November, 2003, she moved to

20     Croatia and you have her on this list of -- of the Croatian authorities

21     list under number 90.  So in 2003 she came to reside in Tejn [phoen] near

22     Osijek, obviously exchanging her property because Tejn was a Serbian

23     village near Osijek.  So she's number 90 on the Croatian list, and on

24     your list, she's number 263.

25        A.   Well, I think I have to explain this again in exactly the same

Page 11054

 1     way.  In my list she's taken from the family heads.  That is what I see

 2     here on the list.  And there is additional information and she's reported

 3     in 2003 by the Croat authorities.  Again, it is a misreading of the

 4     Croatian sources, as far as I can see.  That is all I can say.

 5             We can proceed like this record by record, but I think that this

 6     will not change the basic principle I used to make this list, and it will

 7     not have any impact on what I said so far about these sources and about

 8     the records included based on these sources.

 9             And so once again, if there is more information, please give it

10     to me.  I will look into it and assess it and revise, if necessary.  But

11     on the other hand, I still stand behind the principle and the sources I

12     used for this list.

13        Q.   I'm absolutely opposed to you changing your report subsequently.

14     The Prosecution can engage a new expert.  You had your opportunity.  You

15     had the chance to change your report before testifying.

16             Why, under number 264, do you have the name of Milan Ilic when he

17     didn't live in Hrtkovci but in Platicevo?  And you have him under number

18     91 on the Croatian list, and there it says that his address was

19     Platicevo, in Platicevo, whereas you list him as a Hrtkovci inhabitant.

20     Number 264 is what I am referring to.

21        A.   It is listed in my list based on the family head records.  He is

22     reported as departed to Croatia in 1992, and in the Croatian records the

23     other list, it is number 92.  He is reported in Platicevo, but I can't

24     see here the date when he was -- he is reported from Platicevo, in

25     Serbia, but there was no date when he was registered in Croatia.  So I

Page 11055

 1     have no idea whatsoever when --

 2        Q.   Well, what do we care when he left Platicevo.  The important

 3     thing is that he didn't leave from Hrtkovci.  That's the point.

 4        A.   The point is that in family heads he is reported in Hrtkovci with

 5     an address.  So the point is that the address given in the Croatian

 6     records, we don't know to which time, moment, it refers.  So it is

 7     perfectly possible that the person left Hrtkovci in 1992, moved somewhere

 8     else within Serbia, and after that moved a second time from Serbia to

 9     Croatia.  Anything is possible as long as we can document it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could I please have the time

11     left, Mr. Registrar.  I'm worried about the time.

12             Mr. Seselj, I believe that your time has run out, so please speed

13     up.  Move to the core of your question.  I mean we could review all these

14     cases one by one.  It would take forever.  Please put a question that

15     would sum up the problem.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, I think that

17     these special cases are the most effective way of challenging the entire

18     expert report.  This is key evidence to the lack of seriousness on the

19     part of the expert and her report.  I have a few more significant

20     examples.  You know, yesterday when I made all these attempts to have an

21     expert discussion with the expert, all of that proved futile because she

22     gave answers that were way too extensive, and also I'd ask one thing and

23     she'd say something completely different in reply.  Now she has no way of

24     dealing with it when she's put specific questions.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Put your question and quote the

Page 11056

 1     numbers of the relevant cases.  Put your question and the expert will

 2     answer.  You've used up 2 hours and 37 minutes so far.  You've now almost

 3     had 40 minutes more than the Prosecution had.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Under number 364, why did you put the name of Antun Ledenko when

 6     he exchanged his property on the 14th of November, 1991, and the contract

 7     on the exchange of immovable property was registered?  Antun Ledenko.

 8        A.   It is included based on the family head's record as departed to

 9     Croatia in 1992, and I didn't have the exchange contract, Mr. Seselj,

10     which if you give it to me, I will look through it and assess it and

11     possibly, or not, revise my list.  It depends on what you would give me.

12     That's my answer.

13        Q.   Well, wasn't it more important for you to study the exchange of

14     -- registers of contracts on exchanges than to focus on information that

15     was fabricated by the two parish priests?  You were only interested in

16     that, nothing else.  If other objective sources testified to the

17     contrary, so much the worse for the objective sources.

18             Jure Mrkonja, why did you put that name on your list when he

19     exchanged his property and on the 5th of November this contract was

20     registered in Zagreb?  You could check that with the Croatian

21     authorities.  On the 5th of November, 1991.

22        A.   What number is it on my list?

23        Q.   411.  411 on your list, the list of those whom I expelled from

24     Hrtkovci, as you say.  List of my victims.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection.  The witness made no such statement

Page 11057

 1     these people were expelled by Mr. Seselj.  That is an allegation that we

 2     make in the indictment, but this witness has never said such a thing.

 3             THE WITNESS:  In the record, number 411, Mrkonja, Jure.  Based on

 4     the family heads table, he is included in my list as departed from

 5     Hrtkovci in 1992 and heading to Croatia.  That was his destination.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Well, isn't it possible that he exchanged property in 1991, and

 8     in 1992, when he needed that for obtaining Croatian documents, he then

 9     asked for an extract from the birth register in Hrtkovci?  Is that

10     possible?

11        A.   He is not registered in my list based on the parish records.  It

12     is family heads list.  Well, I think I'm feeling very uncomfortable with

13     the questions related to the exchanges because the exchanges is something

14     that goes beyond this report.  I didn't study this and I don't have data

15     on this, and moreover, I don't have the contextual information about how

16     the contracts were made.  So I think it is not a fair question to ask me

17     to comment on this.  It's just not my subject.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

19     is fully informed of all this.  We've understood the problem.  This lady

20     did not know about the contracts.  We know that she worked from three

21     sources only, and we see, as we look at a few cases, that there are some

22     problems.  Everyone is fully aware of this now.  You've used up 2 hours

23     and 40 minutes.  You may ask one last question, but I'm going to cut you

24     off very soon.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 11058

 1        Q.   Why did you put the name of Jure Mrkonja under 411 on your list?

 2     I've already asked you that.

 3             Under number 416, why did you place the name of Stjepan Muzik

 4     when he did not move out of Vojvodina?  To this day he lives in Novi Sad

 5     and is registered there.  Novi Sad is the capital of Vojvodina.

 6        A.   This record is based on the record in the parish books.  He is

 7     registered with the request for a christening certificate made on the

 8     19th of June, 1992.  And Novi Sad, I believe, is a slightly bigger place

 9     than Hrtkovci, so if I had an opportunity to go from a small village to a

10     bigger environment, urban environment, I would consider this seriously.

11             So this is not -- the departures had to be Croatia only.  People

12     could have moved in all kinds of directions, and I believe several of

13     them moved within Serbia in the first step and later, who knows where

14     they went to.  To all kinds of countries, including Croatia and western

15     countries, of course.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I told you this was your last

17     question.

18             Mrs. Biersay, do you have additional questions?

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I do, Your Honour.  May I inquire what time the

20     Chamber hoped to take the break just so that I can ...

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The break is around quarter to

22     12.00.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.  Your Honour.

24                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

25        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention now to, I believe it's in your

Page 11059

 1     binder under 65 ter number 2859C, and it's specifically I'd like to

 2     discuss the organisational chart 1.  Do you have that before you?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Could you describe for the Trial Chamber what role the overlap of

 5     sources, what role did that play in your assessment of the reliability of

 6     the information you provided in Annex A?

 7        A.   This overlap confirms information included in one source, in the

 8     second source, and it gives the opportunity to have a more complete

 9     record of information.  So here in this figure, the sources are

10     visualised as three groups - refugee tables, christening and marriages

11     books, and the third group is the family heads and family members.  So

12     obviously there are -- the sources are interrelated, and obviously one

13     could have hoped for a higher matching rate, but the matching rate is not

14     extremely high.

15             But I want to point out a few things that would explain that the

16     overlap was not perfect.  Well, for instance, between parish books and

17     refugee tables, there is a huge time difference.  The records of the

18     refugees provided as of mid-2005, parish books registrations made in

19     1992, and that is the family members and their family heads, these two

20     sources which overlap with each other by 97, so out of 202 persons

21     reported as family members, 97 are included in the family heads, which is

22     roughly one-third of the family heads.  And the list of family members is

23     made alphabetically.  It is that the Croats authorities were able to

24     compile additional information for the first 97 family heads reported

25     among the 280.  And as for the first or 100 or one-third of the list,

Page 11060

 1     this is a very consistent sources, these two sources.

 2        Q.   And just to be clear, 65 ter number 2859C is a page from your

 3     report; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.  It is page 9 in my report.  Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In assessing the sources that you just described,

 6     what did you do with any duplicates that you discovered?

 7        A.   Duplicates were checked within each source and duplicates that

 8     were found within sources were eliminated.  And a second time at the time

 9     the sources were merged, we looked for duplicates again.  These

10     duplicates would represent the overlap of sources, and overlapping

11     records were eliminated as well.  There is a table in the report which

12     summarises the elimination.

13        Q.   Directing your attention to page 26, table 13 of your report, is

14     that the table to which you are referring?

15        A.   What page was it you said?

16        Q.   Page 26, table 13.

17        A.   Yes, this is -- no, no.  Yes, yes, yes, it is.  This is the table

18     we just discussed today in the context of the availability of the

19     addresses in Hrtkovci for these individuals that are listed in Annex A.

20     And in this table the duplicated records among the sources, that is, the

21     overlap of sources, are explicitly mentioned.  So that is the summary of

22     what is in Annex A.

23             And as I mentioned already earlier today, the addresses for a

24     majority of these individuals, addresses in Hrtkovci, are available.

25     There is this 88 persons, family members of whom -- for a number of whom

Page 11061

 1     there is uncertainty about their place of residence in 1992 and about the

 2     migration history.  But for the rest, for the remaining individuals, the

 3     information about their residence is clear and available.

 4        Q.   I'd like to move from the overlap of the sources as an indicator

 5     of reliability for the Annex A, and I would like to shift to your

 6     assessment of the comparison between the 1991 census and the 2002 census.

 7             What, if anything, did the results of that comparison indicate to

 8     you with respect to your findings in Annex A?

 9        A.   We remember there was a very significant change in the ethnic

10     composition in Hrtkovci.  There was a decline in the Croatian population

11     and in other non-Serb populations.  For Croats, the decline was by 750

12     persons, which is approximately 76 percent of the 1991 population.  These

13     750 persons who initially were living in Hrtkovci 1991 are still not

14     there as of the time of the census in 2002.  So there is no doubt that

15     there was -- there were departures from Hrtkovci in the interceding

16     period and based on the timing in my report shown in my report, it is

17     clear that majority of the departures or decisions made to prepare for

18     the departures were made in 1992, between May and August, and more

19     significantly in May and June 1992.

20        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention specifically to the refugee

21     table that we've discussed.  Could you summarise for the Trial Chamber

22     the numbers of people who reported having left Hrtkovci in 1992?  So,

23     generally speaking, when you assess the departure, is there a spike in

24     1992 at any time?

25        A.   Yes.  You are speaking of the refugee table which contains

Page 11062

 1     records of 116 refugees from Hrtkovci.  116 of these left in 1992.  We

 2     have specific data on departure, including the day and months of

 3     departure in 1992.  So the same analysis I presented here in this

 4     courtroom based on parish records was also done for this source.  And I

 5     looked at the timing.  I have drawn the same chart based on these records

 6     as for the parish records.  So I have the chart.  I'm not sure I can use

 7     it, but perhaps I can use it.

 8        Q.   If you can just describe for us the numbers for that year.

 9        A.   Yes.  So I see on this chart that the maximum departures were

10     particularly in June 1992.  There were 34 departures out of 113.  And in

11     May there were 11.  The next -- third highest number was in August, and

12     later at the end of 1992, in October and November.  In all these three

13     months there were reported departures from Hrtkovci, and there were of

14     course also departures reported in the period outside May.  August --

15     well, perhaps it is interesting to take a look at the number of

16     departures before May 1992, not to bias or mislead anybody, and the

17     number of these departures is 15.  So 15 departures out of 116 reported,

18     or 113 reported in 1992; 15 were before May.  The rest were May and

19     later, with a maximum in June and May and August and again more towards

20     the end of this year.  So this timing is actually latterly consistent

21     with the timing that I saw in the parish records.

22             So for 1992, I don't think there is any serious significant

23     inconsistency between the sources.  So the analysis that are presented in

24     the report based on merged sources are basically resulting from the

25     patterns contained in single sources.  That would be the refugee table

Page 11063

 1     and the parish books.  As in other sources, there were no details about

 2     the dates of departure.  Just generally for family heads, 1992 was

 3     reported.

 4             So what I'm trying to say is, the estimated or shown timing based

 5     on the empirically observed numbers indicates that May and June were the

 6     months in 1992 where the maximum departures took place.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  And, for the record, the refugee table is 65 ter

 8     number 4100, which is also Exhibit MFI P568.

 9             Your Honours, that would terminate my questions to the witness at

10     this time.  However, I would like to move several additional exhibits

11     into evidence because they were either used or referred to during the

12     cross-examination.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please give us the numbers.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  The first -- excuse me, Your Honour.  The first one

15     would be 65 ter number 2764, and that was the document from which

16     Dr. Tabeau read extensively during your cross-examination, I think, in

17     response to some questions from the Bench, in addition to questions posed

18     by Mr. Seselj.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  We'll give an MFI number

20     to this document.  The Trial Chamber will rule afterwards.

21             Mr. Registrar, can we have an MFI number for this document?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judge, the document was never

24     mentioned during the cross-examination.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number --

Page 11064

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  We'll need to

 2     check that.  Witness, or Ms. Biersay, when was this document mentioned?

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Two points.  One, it's a source in the report and

 4     it's identified on page 2 of the report, and I believe it was mentioned

 5     at page 20 of the transcript from yesterday, October 22nd.  But perhaps I

 6     can get some assistance from Dr. Tabeau.  If she could turn to 65 ter

 7     number 2764 just to make sure we have the right document.  And it should

 8     be in the second one, forgive me.

 9             THE WITNESS:  It is 64 or 54?

10             MS. BIERSAY:  2764.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.  That's the document and this is the

12     report for made by the provincial secretariat for demography, family and

13     child welfares in the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina, according to the

14     2000 census dated November 2003.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 2764 shall be given Exhibit number

16     P00573, marked for identification.  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  And finally, Your Honour, there is a series of the

18     reports for the individual ethnic groups that Mr. Seselj discussed

19     yesterday during the cross-examination that we'd also like to move, with

20     the Court's permission.  May I read them out?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please do.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  The first, 65 ter number 2756, and that one

23     pertains to the Croatian ethnic majority in the Autonomous Province of

24     Vojvodina.

25             THE WITNESS:  Minority.

Page 11065

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Minority.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is not used.  This is not

 3     true.  It was only used for the Hungarian, Romanian, Slovenian and

 4     Ruthenian minorities.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  In any event, the Prosecution would move for the

 6     admission of that one to complete the presentation of all the separate

 7     ethnic groups, and I believe it was discussed yesterday.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One number, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 2756 shall be given

10     Exhibit number P00574.  Thank you, Your Honours.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  The next one.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] MFI, Registrar.  MFI.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the document shall be given

14     P00574, marked for identification.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  The next one is 65 ter 2757.  That one pertains to

16     the Hungarian ethnic minority in Vojvodina.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

18     number of this document because it has not been transcribed properly,

19     Ms. Biersay.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  2757.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 2757 shall be

23     given Exhibit number P00575, also marked for identification.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I have four more.  The next one is

25     2754, which is the report on the Slovak ethnic minority in Vojvodina.

Page 11066

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 2754 shall be given

 3     Exhibit number P00576, also marked for identification.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  The next, 2753 65 ter number, which pertains to the

 5     Romanian ethnic minority in Vojvodina.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 2753 shall be given number

 7     P00577, marked for identification.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  The following is 65 ter number 2755, and that

 9     pertains to the Ruma ethnic minority in Vojvodina.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 2755 shall be given

11     Exhibit number P00578, marked for identification.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Finally, 65 ter number 2758, which pertains to the

13     Ruthenian ethnic minority.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 2758 shall be given

15     Exhibit number P00579, marked for identification.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  And that would conclude the Prosecution's redirect,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Tabeau.  On

19     behalf of my fellow judges, I would like to thank you for having come to

20     testify on behalf of the OTP to contribute to establish the truth in this

21     case.  I wish you a pleasant return to your usual occupations.

22             Before we take the break, one question for Ms. Dahl:  Are there

23     any protective measures for the following witness?

24             MS. DAHL:  The Chamber may recall that according to the August

25     decision, the witness was given a pseudonym that would expire upon the

Page 11067

 1     witness's testimony.  No additional protective measures will be sought.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  We are now going to

 3     break for 15 minutes, not more than 15 minutes.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.05 a.m.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam.  I hope

 9     you are in a position to hear what I'm saying in your own language.  I

10     would like you to stand up because I'm going to ask you to read the

11     solemn declaration.

12             Please give me your first name, last name, and date of birth.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jelena Radosevic, I was born on the

14     10th of April 1951.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you retired or do you work?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not working at the moment.  I

17     still haven't met the necessary conditions to retire either.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Have you ever testified

19     before a court about the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia,

20     or is it the first time you've testified about these matters?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please read the

23     solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 11068

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may be seated.

 2                           WITNESS:  JELENA RADOSEVIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before I give the

 5     floor to the Prosecutor who will apply the 92 ter procedure, I have a

 6     number of questions to put to you.

 7             I know that you are Serb.  Before you came here to testify before

 8     this Tribunal, have you received any telephone calls?  Have you met

 9     people who tried to intimidate you in order to convince you not to

10     testify, or is it the case that no one got in touch with you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had no such calls, nor did

12     anybody attempt to do any of those things or to prevail upon me not to

13     testify or to influence me in any way.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So you are

15     testifying here freely, without any problems?  That's right?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  Let me give you some

18     explanation about the way we are going to proceed today.

19             First, the Prosecutor will summarise what you said in your

20     written statement.  The Prosecutor will ask you to confirm a number of

21     informations.  He may show you a number of documents attached to your

22     statement, and he may ask you other questions.  The Prosecutor has half

23     an hour to do all this.

24             The two Judges sitting in front of you -- let me add that,

25     normally speaking, there are three of us, but one of the Judges is not

Page 11069

 1     here today, so the two of us will then ask you questions, at least I am

 2     going to ask you a number of questions.

 3             As a general rule, when we have a witness here, the accused

 4     cross-examines the witness, but Mr. Seselj, for whatever reason, has

 5     decided not to cross-examine witnesses called under Rule 92 ter.  This is

 6     a position adopted by Mr. Seselj and the Judges have nothing to say about

 7     this.

 8             That's the way we are going to proceed, madam.  When you are

 9     asked a question, please try to answer very accurately, very

10     specifically.  If you do not understand the meaning of the question, do

11     not hesitate to ask for the question to be rephrased.

12             It's 10 past 12.00.  We'll conclude today at a quarter past 1.00,

13     so we'll start for about an hour.  But if you feel unwell, Witness, do

14     not hesitate to raise your hand and ask for the hearing to be stopped.

15     But I hope that everything will run very smoothly.

16             Mr. Prosecutor, it's for you now to start this procedure.

17             MR. RINDI:  Good morning.  I will begin with a short summary of

18     the statement that the Prosecution seeks to admit under Rule 92 ter.

19             At the beginning of the conflict, Jelena Radosevic was living

20     with her family in Slatina, in western Slavonia.  Because of the rising

21     tensions between Croats and Serbs in Slatina, at the beginning of

22     September 1991, the witness moved to Vocin.  In Vocin, the witness worked

23     as a nurse in the infirmary -- in an infirmary.

24             At the beginning of October 1991, the witness saw seven buses in

25     front of the former Sumarija company building in Vocin.  On the front

Page 11070

 1     side of the buses were various flags.  The witness also noticed armed men

 2     in front of the buses wearing olive-grey uniforms, with a fur hat on

 3     their head and a cockade.  The witness later learned by talking to them

 4     that the soldiers who arrived with those buses were volunteers.

 5             A couple of days after their arrival, Radovan Novacic came to the

 6     infirmary.  He presented himself as the commander of one of the volunteer

 7     units, and he told the witness that he had come to visit his wounded

 8     soldiers.  The witness heard that his soldiers called him Vojvoda, and

 9     she concluded that he was the commander of Seselj's volunteers.

10             Members of the Territorial Defence told Jelena Radosevic that the

11     volunteers were mixed with members of their units; however, the

12     volunteers were indisciplined, would not cooperate, and did not want to

13     obey the orders of the TO Commander.  They were rough, and the witness

14     saw them drunk in the streets on a regular basis.

15             On one occasion, sometime in November 1991, 14 volunteers came to

16     the infirmary looking for Davor Jusufovic, a member of the Croatian

17     Defence Forces, wounded in his shoulder.  The volunteers were all very

18     young, up to 25 years old, and had a white bird on their sleeve patches.

19     One of the volunteers told the witness, "Hey, sister, we heard that one

20     Ustasha is here.  We would like to chop him to pieces."  The witness did

21     not allow them to see Davor, which made the volunteers very angry.  They

22     had a Serbian accent, were rough, and one of them even shot accidentally

23     a bullet to the ground.

24             At the end of November or in the first two days of December 1991,

25     Vojislav Seselj came to Vocin.  The witness noticed several cars parked

Page 11071

 1     in front of the building of the command, and a volunteer who was standing

 2     there told her that Seselj was in that building.  She noticed that in

 3     front of the building there were military policemen dressed in blue

 4     uniforms.  They wore white belts on which was written "Military Police."

 5             The witness heard from members of the Territorial Defence that on

 6     that occasion Seselj paid a visit to his soldiers in Lager Seculicia,

 7     Lisicine, and Ceralije.  The witness believes that the main reason behind

 8     Mr. Seselj's visit was to give moral support to the volunteers.  The

 9     witness is not aware of whether Seselj gave orders for civilians in Vocin

10     to be killed.  However, she did notice that the killing of Croat

11     civilians started after his visit.

12             Although very few Croats had been killed before Seselj's visit,

13     the majority of Croat civilians were killed in two weeks after his visit

14     in Vocin.  Members of the Territorial Defence command were helpless and

15     afraid of volunteers.

16             The witness knew that JNA uniforms, weapons, and ammunitions were

17     stored in the Catholic church in Vocin.  She knew this because every time

18     a Serb soldier got killed, as a nurse, she had to dress the victim with a

19     JNA uniform before burial.  She would get those uniforms from a man who

20     told her that he collected them in the Catholic church.  The witness was

21     later told that the church was allegedly destroyed to prevent materiel

22     and weapons from falling into the hands of Croatian forces.

23             The witness left Vocin on 9 December 1991.  When she left the

24     volunteers were still in Vocin.

25             Your Honours, this concludes my summary.

Page 11072

 1                           Examination by Mr. Rindi:

 2        Q.   Witness, have you ever met with a representative of the Office of

 3     the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Witness, do you remember meeting myself yesterday during the

 6     proofing?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you remember also meeting Mr. Mussemeyer, my colleague who is

 9     standing here next to me?

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11        Q.   Yesterday, during the proofing, you had an occasion to review a

12     statement that you had signed before representative of the Office of the

13     Prosecutor.  Do you remember doing so yesterday?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you remember when you signed that statement?

16        A.   The first statement.  Well, everything that's recorded here, I

17     signed that first statement in 2001, in Munich.  I can't remember the

18     exact date, though.  I think it was May, but not the -- I don't know the

19     day.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you.  Did you have a

21     chance to meet with a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor a

22     second time after having met them in 2001, as you just described?

23        A.   Yes.  Last year once, and another time this year.

24             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could we please have the document bearing the

25     65 ter number 5052 displayed on the screen.  Usher, could you also please

Page 11073

 1     hand out a hard copy of the statement in question to the witness.

 2        Q.   Witness, could I please direct your attention to the last three

 3     lines highlighted in bold on the first page of this statement.

 4             MR. RINDI:  Usher, this is still the first page of the statement

 5     that we have displayed on the screen.

 6        Q.   Could you please confirm that you -- that on the 15th of August,

 7     2006, you met with a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor?

 8        A.   Of course I did.  Yes, yes.  I apologise for mixing up the years.

 9     Yes.  The answer is yes, as it is stated here.

10        Q.   Thank you.  On this occasion, did you make any corrections to

11     your first statement that you signed in 2001?

12        A.   Well, I can't remember that, really, whether I did make some

13     corrections or not.  But what we read through yesterday is quite all

14     right.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If you look at the first page of the statement that

16     you have in front of you, do you recognise your signatures at the bottom

17     of the page?

18        A.   Yes, I do recognise it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please now slowly flip through the pages of

20     the statement and tell the Trial Chamber if you recognise your initials

21     at the bottom of each page.

22        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.  Yes.  Mmm-hmm, yes.

23             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could we please have page 9 of the statement

24     displayed on the screen.  It's page 9 both in the B/C/S and in the

25     English version.

Page 11074

 1        Q.   Witness, yes, if you could please look at page 9 of the

 2     statement.  Do you recognise your signature at the bottom of the page?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you already mentioned to us that you had a

 5     chance to go through your statement yesterday during the proofing.  Could

 6     you --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could we now look at paragraph 12 of page 3 of

10     the statement.  It's the same page in both the B/C/S and the English

11     version.

12        Q.   Witness, I would like to direct your attention to this paragraph,

13     to paragraph 12 of the statement.  I will read out the relevant lines for

14     you:

15             "A couple of days after their arrival, I spoke to the commanders

16     of the volunteers.  He came to the kindergarten.  That was a place where

17     patients were taken for medical care.  I asked who he was and he

18     presented himself as Radovan Novacic from Loznica.  He was about 35 years

19     old.  He said that he was the commander of one of the volunteer groups

20     and came to visit his soldiers when he arrived in the infirmary.  I heard

21     that the soldiers called him Vojvoda.  I think he was the commander of

22     Seselj volunteers."

23             Witness, why did you conclude that Radovan Novacic was the leader

24     of the Seselj volunteers in Vocin?

25        A.   Well, I didn't conclude that myself.  He said so himself when we

Page 11075

 1     started talking, and when I asked him, that's what he said himself.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Could I now direct your attention to paragraph 21 of

 3     the same statement.  Usher, if you could also please display that

 4     paragraph on the screen?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I will read out the relevant lines of the statement for you:

 7             "Vojislav Seselj came to Vocin on the end of November 1991 or

 8     during the first days of December 1991.  Once, I went to the bakery and

 9     saw a crowd of people and several cars parked in front of the building

10     where the command in Vocin was in."

11             Witness, when you mention the building of the command in Vocin,

12     to which command are you referring to?

13        A.   Well, before the war, it was the forestry, the Sumarija, and when

14     the war operations began, the military command was established there.

15     But I'm referring to the command of the Territorial Defence in actual

16     fact.  Not the command of the Vojislav Seselj, but the other command.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, with the clarifications that you just

18     specified, does the statement accurately describe the events that you

19     described therein?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So if you were asked questions about those events today, would

22     you give the same answers that are contained in this statement?

23        A.   Certainly I would, yes.  Except for some dates.  I might have

24     forgotten some dates.  But otherwise, this is exactly how I experienced

25     the situation.

Page 11076

 1             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, at this time I would like to move for

 2     the admission of the document bearing 65 ter number 5052 into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 5052 shall be

 6     given Exhibit number P00580.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             MR. RINDI:  I would also like to show to the witness a number of

 8     documents that are attached to her statement --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  There's a

10     mistake on line 6.  Mr. Registrar, could we have the number again.  I

11     believe it not transcribed correctly.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 5052 shall be given the

13     Exhibit number P00580.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could you now please display on the screen the

16     document bearing the 65 ter number 834.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the document that you have in

18     front of you.

19        A.   Yes, I can see it, thank you.

20        Q.   Could you please describe to the Trial Chamber what this document

21     refers to.

22        A.   Well, this is a description of all those people who were victims

23     on the 13th of December, 1991, in Vocin when we withdrew or during those

24     days, 12th and 13th.  Mostly people who were killed in Vocin on the 13th

25     of December, 1991.

Page 11077

 1        Q.   Are you familiar with any of the people listed in the document?

 2        A.   Yes, yes, certainly.  I knew them all.  I knew where they lived,

 3     and we all knew each other, yes.

 4        Q.   Are you aware of what the ethnic origin of the people listed in

 5     the document is?

 6        A.   Yes, perhaps just two names on that list.  Well, they are all

 7     Croats with the exception of two names perhaps.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, at this point I would like to move for

10     the admission of this document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have a

12     number.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter number 00834 shall be

14     given Exhibit number P00581.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could you please now display on the screen the

16     document bearing the 65 ter number 506 on the screen.  For Your Honours'

17     information, this is Exhibit number P431, which has already been admitted

18     in this trial.

19        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the document which is displayed

20     on the screen in front of you.

21        A.   Yes, I've seen it, thank you.

22        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what this document is

23     about.

24        A.   Well, this is a set of physician's findings and it relates to

25     Kresimir Doric whom I knew.  It is a medical report.  And he was beaten

Page 11078

 1     up in Vocin.  I know the doctor that signed this document.  I also knew

 2     Kresimir Doric, and I know this, this is a document which is quite in

 3     order.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You just told us that you knew the victim.  Are you

 5     aware of what the ethnic origin of the victim was?

 6        A.   Yes, he is a Croat.

 7        Q.   Are you aware of what the ethnic origin of the perpetrator is?

 8        A.   Well, I mean, the name mentioned here is a Serb name, of the

 9     perpetrator.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. RINDI:  I do not need to move for the admission of this

12     document as it has already been admitted.

13             Usher, could you please now display on the screen the document

14     bearing the 65 ter number 498.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the document which is displayed

16     on the screen in front of you.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Could you please tell the Tribunal what this document is about.

19        A.   Well, this is a document that shows that Antun Simic, whom I also

20     knew, was beaten up in Vocin.  I know him as well.  I know the director

21     who has signed here, and I know the people on the right-hand side, those

22     who were the perpetrators in this incident.  I knew all of them.  And

23     this is a truthful document.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what the ethnic origin of the victim is?

25        A.   Croat.

Page 11079

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know what the ethnicity of the perpetrator

 2     is?

 3        A.   Serb.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   You are welcome.

 6             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could you please display on the screen the

 7     document bearing the 65 ter number 07222C.

 8             Beg your pardon, Your Honours, I would like to tender into

 9     evidence the document that we just discussed.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 498 shall be given

11     Exhibit number P00582.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MR. RINDI:  Could you please show the second page of this

13     document.  Usher, this is -- is this document number 07222C?  Because I

14     believe this is ...  I have the ERN number of the document for your

15     convenience.  Or we can put the document in question on the ELMO.  It

16     would probably be easier.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the picture which is displayed

18     on the screen in front of you.  Could you please describe to the Trial

19     Chamber what this picture represents.

20        A.   Well, what is written here is "Main Staff, the Serbian Chetnik

21     Movement."  This is a skull and behind the skull are bones probably,

22     bones of a corpse.

23        Q.   Have you ever seen this patch before?

24        A.   Well, I can't remember now whether I did -- I'm not sure.  I'm

25     not sure.  Now I'm no longer sure whether I had seen it before.

Page 11080

 1        Q.   Do you remember if you have seen this patch, if at all, in Vocin,

 2     during the time you were there?

 3        A.   Well, in Vocin there were quite a few such emblems in 1991, quite

 4     a few.  However, I cannot be sure now whether I recall this picture.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. RINDI:  Usher, could we now please display the document

 7     bearing the 65 ter number 07222D.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, could you take a look at the picture which is displayed

 9     on the screen in front of you.

10        A.   Yes, yes, yes, I know that.

11        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what this picture

12     represents.

13        A.   Very well.  It's written here "White Eagles Assault Battalion."

14     It was one of the emblems that volunteers wore on their caps and on their

15     shoulders, but I do remember it from Vocin in 1991.  I did come across

16     that.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   You are welcome.

19             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, at this point I would like to move for

20     the admission of this document into evidence.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 07222D shall be given

23     Exhibit number P00583.  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, wasn't this

25     document already in the exhibit -- in the list?  Because a book has

Page 11081

 1     already been admitted in the case.

 2             MR. RINDI:  Yes, the whole document has a 65 ter number, but --

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And has been admitted?

 4             MR. RINDI:  I don't believe it has been admitted into evidence.

 5     It has a 65 ter number but we submitted individual pages of this

 6     document.

 7             Usher, could you now please display the document bearing 65 ter

 8     number 07222E.  Could you please display the second page of this

 9     document.

10        Q.   Witness, do you recognise this picture?

11        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  As for this patch, I also came across it in 1991.

12     I remember it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And where have you seen this patch?

14        A.   Yes, yes, I did see it on the insignia of the Serb volunteers who

15     came from Serbia.  They wore that.  Also, there were flags, but I

16     remember this sign.

17             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I would like to move for the admission

18     of this document into evidence.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 07222E shall be given

20     Exhibit number P00584.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             MR. RINDI:  This is the last document I will show to the witness.

22             Usher, could you now please display the document bearing the 65

23     ter number 4203 on the screen.

24        Q.   Witness, could you please take a look at this picture.  Do you

25     remember having ever seen this picture, this flag, before?

Page 11082

 1        A.   Right now, I cannot remember having seen it.  I cannot state with

 2     certainty that it's somewhere in the recesses of my mind.  I can't

 3     remember.

 4        Q.   Thank you, witness.

 5             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, this concludes my examination.

 6                                Questioned by the Court:

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to put a

 8     number of questions to you.  Where do you currently reside, in Croatia,

 9     in other country, in Serbia?  Where do you live?

10        A.   In Croatia, in Slatina.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You stated that you arrived in

12     Vocin in 1991.  Vocin is a small town.  What was the population size in

13     Vocin, roughly?

14        A.   I lived in Slatina and I went to Vocin.  That's 23 kilometres

15     away from Slatina.  Vocin is a village, and in 1991 it had a population

16     of 1.700.  In 1991, that is.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why did you leave Slatina for

18     Vocin?  What is the reason for your departure?

19        A.   Well, for 20 or so years before that, I had lived in Slatina.

20     And everything was all right up until 1990 or 1991 when this great fear

21     was instilled in me.  The HDZ won and I as a Serb felt very unsafe.  We

22     were threatened.  My husband lost his job.  At work it was quite

23     difficult to deal with all the things that I had to deal with then, like

24     the other Serbs in Slatina.  That's why I went to Vocin, because I

25     thought that's where my parents are, the population is Serb, and I

Page 11083

 1     thought that that would last only for a few days.  So I thought that I

 2     should try to get away from something that I didn't even know what I

 3     would term it and what it would look like.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've just stated that the HDZ

 5     had won the elections and that you noticed a change in the atmosphere and

 6     that Serbs were under threat.  That is why you decided to go to Vocin.

 7     To your knowledge, did Serbs in Slatina leave Slatina to go to Serbia or

 8     to another country?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know.  It's not that we talked amongst ourselves,

10     who was going where.  We just knew that we were all afraid and that we

11     wanted to go somewhere, somewhere where everybody individually would feel

12     safe.  I don't think it was only Serbia, because masses of people went to

13     Hungary, to Bosnia.  People went places.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  At the time, did you

15     hear that it was possible to exchange flats; for example, if you had a

16     flat in Slatina as a Serb, you could exchange it with a Croat living in

17     Serbia?  Did you hear about that, about the possibility of exchanging

18     property?

19        A.   You mean then, in 1991?  No.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you never heard about that

21     at all?

22        A.   No.  No.  Not me.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  You arrived in Vocin.

24     In what month of 1991 did you arrive in Vocin?

25        A.   I came to Vocin on the 4th of September, 1991.

Page 11084

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then you worked as

 2     nurse; is that correct?

 3        A.   Not immediately, a few days afterwards.  I wish to correct

 4     myself.  The date was the 5th of September, if it matters.  But I didn't

 5     go to work straightaway at this newly established centre.  It was about

 6     15 days later.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Later on you saw Serbs arrive.

 8     They carried weapons; they were wearing uniforms.  In your view, why did

 9     they come to Vocin, these Serbs?  What was their purpose?  You haven't

10     heard my question.  Let me repeat it then.

11        A.   Yes, I didn't seem to hear something.  I came to Vocin then --

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat my question.  You

13     were there and you saw Serbs arrive in Vocin.  They were armed; they had

14     uniforms.  According to you, what was the purpose of these Serbs?  Why

15     did they come to Vocin?

16        A.   Since I worked in the medical profession and I was a civilian

17     there, I don't know much about military things, but we, the population in

18     Vocin, heard that they had come to help us in the conflict between the

19     Serbs and Croats.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So they wanted to

21     help the Serbs who lived in Vocin, I suppose.  At some point in time you

22     met with Radovan Novacic, a man aged about 35, and his men would call him

23     Vojvoda.  So if I understand correctly, you had a talk with him, you had

24     a chat with him?

25        A.   Yes, yes, twice.

Page 11085

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what did he tell you?  What

 2     did you ask him?

 3        A.   Well, for the most part, he kept quiet.  His head was down, and

 4     he kept quiet.  When he walked into the room where we were working, he

 5     introduced himself and he said why he had come.  Mostly he would sit

 6     there and keep quiet.  He didn't talk, but we knew who he was and the

 7     soldiers who were there addressed him as Vojvoda, and he didn't say

 8     anything else.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why are you saying that

10     Radovan Novacic was, according to you, the commander of Seselj's

11     volunteers?

12        A.   He introduced himself as such.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And he actually stated, "I am

14     the commander of Seselj's volunteers," that's how he introduced himself?

15        A.   Well, it's not that he introduced himself that way when he

16     introduced himself in terms of what his name was.  He stayed at the

17     infirmary for awhile and then he asked about his soldiers, who were

18     there.  And in this conversation, it's not that I asked him, but it was a

19     very small room and all of us were doing something there and somebody

20     asked him in what capacity he was there.  Perhaps it was the wounded who

21     had addressed him; I cannot recall that detail now.  But I do know that

22     what was said was that he was one of the commanders out there.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So he was one of

24     the commanders, but was it stated that he was the commander of Seselj's

25     volunteers?  It was something that somebody told you, but you didn't hear

Page 11086

 1     -- rather than Radovan Novacic tell it to you personally, didn't tell

 2     that to you personally?

 3        A.   He said it and I heard it.  The only difference was that I was

 4     not the one who had asked him.  He said it and I heard it.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  You heard it said.  At

 6     the time did you know who Mr. Seselj was, or was it someone you didn't

 7     know at all?

 8        A.   Oh, no.  I had heard of Mr. Seselj then, in 1991.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when Radovan Novacic said

10     that he was the commander of Seselj's volunteers, for you it was

11     something rather normal?  I mean, it didn't raise any questions in your

12     mind, or did it?

13        A.   But of course it did.  I immediately complained to him -- well,

14     how should I put this?  How do I describe this to you?  I complained

15     about this conduct of his soldiers that was not very nice, if I can put

16     it that way.  I remember that I was really happy to have the opportunity

17     to meet someone to whom I could say that I was so afraid of these

18     soldiers who were in the street and who behaved so improperly.  And when

19     they came to the infirmary, too, as the Prosecutor mentioned.  Yes, yes,

20     I did say that to him.  Of course I did.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what did he say?

22        A.   Nothing.  Nothing.  He just shrugged his shoulders.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, in Vocin, there was the

24     TO, yes or no?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11087

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was the commander of the

 2     TO?

 3        A.   Now, who was the commander then?  Now I'm not quite sure.  Was it

 4     Rajko Bojcic or -- or I've already forgotten that.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the ethnic

 6     composition of Vocin?  Which ethnic group was in the majority?  Was it

 7     the Croats or the Serbs?

 8        A.   In 1991 there were 95 percent Serbs, and the remaining 5 percent

 9     were Croats.  Perhaps it wasn't exactly 95 percent, but ...

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We now know there was this

11     commander of the TO.  Did you see anyone from the JNA in Vocin, yes or

12     no?

13        A.   Well, I didn't see anyone from the JNA, but I know that people

14     were talking at the time, November 1991, or somewhere around that time,

15     that it was only Jovan Trbojevic who had come from the JNA.  Now I've

16     forgotten what rank he had, but he had a pretty high rank.  He is the

17     only one who had come in 1991 from Novi Sad, from the Novi Sad corps of

18     the JNA.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your statement, you said

20     that Jovan Trbojevic had a fight with the TO.  Do you remember stating

21     that or not?

22        A.   Well, perhaps not exactly the way you just put it now, sir.  It's

23     not that they quarrelled, but there was discord.  You could feel it, that

24     there was this thing between the territorials and the JNA.  There was

25     something wrong there.  I'm not the military type myself, but well, it's

Page 11088

 1     not that there was some kind of cooperation that could be seen or felt.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a slight contradiction

 3     here.  You said that there was no cooperation between the TO and the JNA,

 4     but at the same time you are saying that Colonel Trbojevic was on his

 5     own.  Were there other men from the JNA there or not?

 6        A.   No, no, I do apologise to you.  No one was there from the JNA

 7     except for Mr. Jovan Trbojevic.  He had come from the JNA.  The

 8     Territorial Defence is something different.  I really wish to correct

 9     myself now.  There was cooperation between the JNA and the territorials,

10     but it's not that there was that much cooperation.  I really do apologise

11     to you.  With the Serb volunteers, as far as I could feel, there wasn't

12     that much of that there.  What I'm saying now is quite different.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have Serb volunteers who

14     behave very badly, and if I remember properly, you stated in your

15     statement that some of them were in prison and suddenly became

16     volunteers.  Did they mention that to you as well, because you took care

17     of them?  Did they tell you that they were in prison before becoming

18     volunteers?

19        A.   That's right.  That's the truth of it.  There was a man called

20     Ivan who was there in a bed.  I didn't know his surname.  He was 18 years

21     old at the time.  He came and said he was Ivan from Pancevo and that he

22     was a Serb volunteer, and he came to us to the infirmary because he had

23     jaundice.  And I asked him, I asked him how come he was there when he was

24     the same age as my daughter.  I said, Have you done your military

25     service?  He said no.  He said, No, sister, what military service,

Page 11089

 1     because for one month in prison, I get four months at liberty.  And

 2     that's why I became very afraid when I heard from him that he had

 3     actually come to us from a prison.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me now turn to the arrival

 5     of Mr. Seselj in Vocin.  Did you see him arrive with your own eyes in

 6     Vocin, yes or no?

 7        A.   No.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI:  [Interpretation] Who told you that he was

 9     there?

10        A.   Well, stories were going around.  People were talking about it on

11     the streets, at work, in the bakery, everywhere.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay, everyone was talking

13     about it.  Did he deliver a speech, or did he come and meet have with the

14     volunteers and the local population?  Do you remember that or not?

15        A.   As for the civilian local population, I don't know if he had a

16     meeting with them, but people said that he had toured Sekolinci [phoen]

17     which is where, as far as I was informed, was where his soldiers were put

18     up, and he toured the rest of the terrain in Vocin where the soldiers

19     were stationed.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He went to see the soldiers,

21     all right.  You stated that in front of the building where he was, there

22     were military policemen wearing belts.  I was wondering whether these

23     were JNA military policemen or TO military policemen.  If there was no

24     JNA in Vocin, who were these military policemen in your view?

25        A.   They were members of the TO, the Territorial Defence.

Page 11090

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  They were members

 2     ever the TO.  Fine.

 3             Why did you leave Vocin?  For what reason did you leave Vocin in

 4     December?  Why did you leave?

 5        A.   We left, or rather I left on the 9th of December 1991 -- 2, and I

 6     went with my husband to Belgrade to visit my children there.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  My fellow Judge has

 8     a few questions to put to you.  I'm looking at the clock so I'm going to

 9     ask you one last question.

10             You wrote three books.  Two of them were confiscated by the

11     Croats and we learned that you were imprisoned by the Croats.  Why?  For

12     what reason were you arrested?

13        A.   Well, I was imprisoned in 1995, part of October and November, and

14     I was imprisoned because, well, I don't know what article that was that I

15     was sentenced by, but I was a rebel under some article and -- well, I've

16     forgotten.  I had to prove something but I forget what is it was now.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What did you write

18     in these books?  Did you write these books to talk about your experience

19     as a nurse, or did you write them to talk about your experience, because,

20     I'm sorry, I haven't had the pleasure to read you.  But why did you write

21     these books?  What was your purpose?

22        A.   Well, because I was very sad at the time and I found it very

23     difficult at the time, and I thought that only if I wrote it all down

24     would I be able to remain normal and sane.  That was a sort of defence

25     mechanism that I used to defend myself from everything around me that was

Page 11091

 1     happening.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Madam Radosevic.  I just have a couple

 4     of questions for you in relation to the link between -- please go ahead,

 5     if you need.  The link between the beating up of your two friends that

 6     you named Kresimir Doric and Antun Simic.  This happened, if I understand

 7     correctly, and I just want you to confirm, this happened well before the

 8     volunteers arrived to Vocin; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So did you form any relation yourself between the

11     beating up of these friends of yours and the volunteers?

12        A.   No, not me.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Interpretation] So the beating up.  In

14     principle.  Could not have had anything to do with the volunteers, could

15     it?  I just want to be sure that I've understood it correctly.

16        A.   That's right.  That's right, yes.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The other question I had to you was in relation

18     to your mentioning of the Catholic church and I was just curious to know,

19     why would, as I understand it, Serbs hide weapons, ammunition and

20     uniforms in a Catholic church?  Was it empty, or can you tell us a little

21     bit about that?

22        A.   Well, yes.  Yes, that's a good question.  That's what I was

23     wondering myself, many times.  The church served as an institution -- as

24     a religious institution, as a church in 1991.  It was a Catholic church,

25     a functioning Catholic church.  Was it empty?  Well, it was the same as

Page 11092

 1     any other church would look like for the services it held.

 2             And in 1991, I think I said that in my statement, I happened to

 3     learn due to force of circumstance that the TO had made a warehouse, a

 4     depot there.  I didn't see it myself.  But when we went to collect

 5     uniforms, then a person who was in charge of distributing -- I seem to be

 6     talking too fast again, all right.  I apologise.

 7             When we went to collect our uniforms, as I was saying, then the

 8     person in charge of distributing the uniforms did bring those uniforms

 9     precisely from the church.  And the church was mined in 1991.  Probably

10     the way I described it in my written statement, that's what the rumours

11     going around were, so that the uniforms and weapons and whatever else

12     that was there, I don't know, would come into the hands of the Croatian

13     army.  But I wondered why myself, because as far as I'm concerned, the

14     church is always a religious edifice, whatever.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It does seem to be odd, doesn't it?  But did you

16     ever hear that also the Croatians and the Croatian army availed itself of

17     the weapons and ammunition and uniforms that were available in the old TO

18     depot in that church?  Or was it only something that the Serbs used?

19        A.   Oh dear, I don't think I can answer that question.  Whether the

20     Croats used it, too -- well, could you repeat your question, please.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  My question was, if you knew or heard of the

22     ammunition and weapons and uniforms that were deposited in the old TO

23     depot in the Catholic church, whether these things that were there were

24     also used by the Croat army and the Croat Defence.  You have told us that

25     it was used by the Serbs, and I'm just curious to know whether also the

Page 11093

 1     Croats came there to pick up weapons or ammunition or uniforms?

 2        A.   Yes, thank you, I understand you now.  It was only the Serbs that

 3     used it.  Yes.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 5        A.   You are welcome.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, thank you very much on

 7     behalf of the Trial Chamber for coming to testify here in The Hague.  I

 8     wish you a very pleasant trip home.

 9             Before we adjourn, let me tell everyone that next week we'll be

10     sitting in the afternoon, but on Thursday, the afternoon sitting will be

11     transferred to the morning.  In other words, on Thursday we'll be sitting

12     in the morning.  Please take good note of this.

13             Mr. Seselj, please take note of the fact that we'll be sitting on

14     Thursday in the morning and the two other days, in the afternoon.  I wish

15     you a very pleasant day.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.12 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

18                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.