Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11552

 1                           Tuesday, 11 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, kindly call the

 6     case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Good afternoon to everyone in and

 9     around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Vojislav Seselj.

12             Thank you, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14             Good afternoon to the OTP representatives, Ms. Dahl, Mr. Ferrara,

15     and their team associates.  Good afternoon, Mr. Seselj, and of course

16     the -- good afternoon to the usher and the Registrar.

17             We're ten minutes late in starting because the previous Trial

18     Chamber was not able to stop at a quarter to 2:00, which causes this

19     delay, because I was waiting outside the door at 14 past 2.00.  I hope

20     this is not to occur again.

21             I have three topics.

22             First of all, Mr. Seselj, your brief on the reply to the

23     Prosecution motion for imposition of counsel has been translated.  We

24     have -- we got the English translation on Friday.

25             The Trial Chamber notes the following:  Your filings have two

Page 11553

 1     parts.  The first part is under 35.000 words long, so no problems there.

 2     That will be admitted and filed.  However, as to the second part, it is

 3     over 260 pages long, i.e., 91.000-odd words, so that will not be admitted

 4     because the title deals with violations of your rights.  And I read the

 5     contents this morning, as early as 5.00 this morning.  There's no direct

 6     relation to the key issue of whether you should be appointed a counsel or

 7     not.  Therefore, the said document will not be filed.

 8             Something else, another problem.  It has to do with the first

 9     document which will be filed.  It mentions several protected witnesses,

10     giving their names and pseudonyms.  As a result, the version that you

11     provided will be filed confidentially.  However, as soon as you have

12     redacted the first names and surnames, that version will be made public.

13             The second topic.  It concerns the witness we're going to hear

14     today.  The Trial Chamber handed down a decision on Friday.  It is 11

15     pages long and has 51 footnotes.  The document could not be translated

16     into your language since Friday.  I am therefore going to sum it up very

17     briefly.  It regards the testimony of Davor Strinovic.

18             The Trial Chamber said that the motions by the Prosecution

19     pursuant to Rule 94(B), seeking admission of schedules B and C of the 18

20     September 2008 motion, including exhibits admitted in the Milosevic and

21     Mrksic cases, those requests have been turned down, dismissed by the

22     Trial Chamber.

23             Furthermore, the Prosecution had sought to admit, pursuant to

24     Rule 92 ter, annexes B, C, D and E of their motion of the 13th of July,

25     2006.  They were transcripts of the testimony of the witness in the

Page 11554

 1     Milosevic and Mrksic cases and the exhibits related thereto.  The Trial

 2     Chamber decided to dismiss that motion as well.  However, the Trial

 3     Chamber authorised the new report to be added to the Prosecution 65 ter

 4     list.  Therefore, the Trial Chamber, in its disposition, ordered that the

 5     witness appear as an expert witness.  We recognise his status of expert.

 6     The examination-in-chief will be not over one hour and thirty minutes.

 7     As to the cross-examination, it will be 130 minutes maximum.

 8             The Trial Chamber dismissed the other motions.

 9             Now, regarding next week, experts Visnja Bilic is due to testify.

10     As you know, Visnja Bilic is going to replace expert Ivan Grujic.

11             On the 3rd of November, 2008, the Prosecution filed the report by

12     Bilic pursuant to Rule 94 bis and sought to add this report and related

13     documents to the 65 ter list.  The report and the documents were provided

14     to the accused on the 8th of October, 2008.  The translation into B/C/S

15     of the motion was provided to the witness on the 7th of November, 2008.

16     The witness is due to testify on the 18th of November, 2008, so that's

17     next Tuesday.  And given the time limits for responses and replies, we

18     have four questions for you.

19             The first question:  Do you challenge the additions sought by the

20     Prosecution to the 65 ter list; that is, the report and the related

21     exhibits?  Secondly, do you challenge the status of expert of the

22     witness?  Thirdly, do you accept the report made by Ms. Bilic?  Fourthly,

23     do you wish to cross-examine the witness?

24             So, Mr. Seselj, I know that you wanted to say something.  You can

25     answer the questions I put to you.

Page 11555

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, with regard to

 2     the information you've just given that you rejected the addendum to my

 3     response to the Prosecution and their request to impose counsel upon me,

 4     I'd like to draw your attention to the following:  My response is less

 5     extensive than I was allowed.  It's shorter.  Secondly, along with his

 6     request, the Prosecutor attached material numbering more than 1.000

 7     pages.  I didn't even count them.  Perhaps there are 2.000 pages

 8     attached, and it took up a whole box, a whole box full of material.  My

 9     supplement to the response is four or eight times less than the

10     Prosecutor's supplement to their motion, and I protest because you

11     accepted the Prosecution response and not my supplement.

12             Now, as far as expert Visnja Bilic is concerned, you will

13     remember that I was opposed to having another expert witness called in,

14     because Ivan Grujic was seriously compromised, in the professional sense

15     and moral sense, in some other trials and proceedings, and Visnja Bilic

16     appears as an uncompromised individual who will present his material.

17     And as far as I was able to see thus far and look at the new expert

18     report that was tabled, it is quite obvious that the report is wholly

19     based on the material of Milan Grujic.  Therefore, I am opposed to

20     following the 65 ter rule for new exhibits and having this one added.  I

21     challenge the qualifications of Visnja Bilic herself, both in the

22     professional and the moral sense.  I do not accept her report, and I'm

23     going to cross-examine her if I have the opportunity of doing so.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber is going to

25     discuss what you have just said, and you will know as early as tomorrow

Page 11556

 1     what our decision is going to be regarding Ms. Bilic.

 2             Did you have anything else to say, because we're pressed by time

 3     today and I'd like us to move swiftly and hear the expert.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I do have something to

 5     add very briefly, but three serious problems.

 6             First of all, it was the Prosecution's duty to disclose the

 7     complete transcripts of the testimony of Davor Strinovic in the Milosevic

 8     trial as well as in the Markesic and Mrksic et al trial.

 9             Now, in the Mrksic trial, they failed to provide me with 50 pages

10     of the transcript, and I'm referring to the final portion of the

11     transcript of the 23rd of May, 2006.  Through the representatives of the

12     Registry, I took up this problem with the Prosecution.  I tried to have

13     it resolved an hour ago, roughly, but was unsuccessful because I was

14     brought here at 1.15, and so I wasn't able to resolve that issue, which

15     means that it doesn't exist at all, because while I was studying this, I

16     was thinking about it and I thought perhaps they disclosed it to me

17     subsequently and I was just not able to find it.  As the Prosecutor can't

18     find it either, then that material just doesn't exist.  So the person who

19     translated this from the English to have it given to me probably thought

20     that I wouldn't read through the whole lot and wouldn't notice that there

21     are 50 pages missing from the central part of the document.  But as I

22     read through everything, I did notice it, and it's a serious problem.

23             Secondly, and this will be even briefer, yesterday I received --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll ask the question straight

25     away.

Page 11557

 1             Ms. Dahl or Mr. Ferrara, Mr. Seselj is telling us that he was

 2     provided with a transcript of the 23rd of May, 2006, with 60 pages

 3     missing.  That's what he says.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, we have just discovered what

 5     Mr. Seselj say when he informed the Court Officer, and he's right because

 6     they were not translated, the afternoon session of the evening of the

 7     23rd of May, 2006.  We immediately directed our office to translate these

 8     50 pages missing, and we hope to disclose it to Seselj -- to Mr. Seselj

 9     as soon as possible.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             So you've got your answer, Mr. Seselj, to this problem.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I should have been provided

13     it at least half an hour before Strinovic comes into the courtroom,

14     whereas I'm going to receive it, I think, when Davor Strinovic has

15     returned to Zagreb.  So that's the problem.  Had I not read through all

16     this or had I had some unskillful counsel or lawyer, that would have gone

17     unnoticed, you see.

18             The second problem is this:  Yesterday, I received a request for

19     VS-35 on the basis of 92 ter, a request from the Prosecutor, and as the

20     Trial Chamber you rejected that request.  Now they're bringing it up

21     again.  And it is dated the 28th of October, but I was just handed it

22     yesterday.  I am categorically opposed to having this request by the

23     Prosecution adhered to, and I would like to put forward all the reasons

24     that I've already stated, why we cannot apply Rule 92 ter in these

25     proceedings, so I hope I don't have to repeat all my points again.  You

Page 11558

 1     know that I stated my views and presented the reasons and repeated them

 2     several times, so that's the second point.

 3             Now, the third point is this:  Just before I entered the

 4     courtroom, I received a request from the Prosecutor for --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding VS-035, Mr. Ferrara?

 6             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, probably there's a misunderstanding

 7     interpretation, because VS-35 testified viva voce [indiscernible].  For

 8     this reason, it was Mr. [Indiscernible] Ejic, so --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1.035, 1.035.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was 1.035.

11             Now, if the Trial Chamber has already dismissed the first

12     request, request saying that it should be a viva voce witness, we now

13     take due note of new filings.  The Trial Chamber will examine them, but

14     at first blush I can't see why we should change tack.  But let's wait

15     until we see the contents of the filing.

16             Third and last point, Mr. Seselj?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before coming into the courtroom, I

18     received a Prosecution request dated the 26th of September, 2008, and the

19     heading is "Request for formally taking note of facts relevant for the

20     crime base with respect to Vukovar."  And there's a large number of those

21     facts set out in that document, almost 300.  I don't have time to count

22     them all.  But, anyway, I'd like to inform you that I'm categorically

23     opposed to that, too, regardless of the fact that certain facts are

24     notoriously well known.  So there was no reason to table this motion.

25     They can be seen from the general context and from numerous testimonies

Page 11559

 1     and documents presented.  However, there are some which are completely

 2     unacceptable.

 3             But, anyway, the Mrksic et al trial is still ongoing, that is to

 4     say, it is in the appeals stage, and they are not adjudicated facts.

 5     Adjudicated facts are only those which have been officially adjudicated.

 6     And so because of that very strong formal reason, this is completely

 7     unacceptable.  I think some notoriously well-known facts are mentioned to

 8     cover up other things, but, to be honest, I haven't had time to read

 9     through the whole document because I had to enter into the courtroom.

10             So for these reasons, I am categorically opposed to this.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't want to make any

12     filings, or have you just explained orally why you oppose them?  Do you

13     intend to make any filings as to judicial notice?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, I think it

15     suffices for me to say this out loud in the courtroom and it to be

16     recorded in the transcript, and that will save time, because I have filed

17     more than 400 motions and submissions to date, so let's make matters

18     simpler.  If I have to write a filing, then I'll have to do it in

19     writing, in my own handwriting, without a typewriter, et cetera.  So

20     while it's translated and sent to the Prosecutor, this will require a lot

21     of time.  But I've already stated my formal reason, and I think it is

22     sufficient for you to reject it.  And, anyway, of late I've been applying

23     this kind of practice, that is, to respond orally to everything that I

24     receive, because mostly the arguments I'd like to put forward are

25     repeated, so there's no reason for me to write them all down.  And I have

Page 11560

 1     to prepare for all the testimonies and just have two or three days free

 2     between one testimony and another, so I don't have much time to write

 3     submissions.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, very well.

 5             Mr. Usher, can you bring the witness in.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

 8             Can you please state your first name, surname, and date of birth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Davor Strinovic, 8th of March,

10     1949.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

12     occupation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a physician, a specialist of

14     forensic medicine, and a professor at the Faculty of Medicine in the

15     subject of forensic medicine.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're a forensic

17     pathologist.  Does that mean that you do forensic post-mortems?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I perform autopsies at the

19     Forensic Medicine Institute of the University of Zagreb.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you had an opportunity to

21     testify before this Tribunal?  And if so, in which case?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I testified on

23     several occasions; in the Milosevic case, then in the Sljivancanin case,

24     as well as in the Martic case.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that was on three occasions.

Page 11561

 1     In your own country or in other countries, have you had an opportunity to

 2     testify to events related to the former Yugoslavia or did you testify

 3     only here?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was once invited to a trial

 5     associated with the Ovcara case in Belgrade.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please read out the

 7     solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  DAVOR STRINOVIC

11                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Doctor.  Please sit

13     down.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Some brief explanations.  I

16     mean, nothing I'm about to say is going to be a surprise to you, because

17     you have testified on several occasions.

18             You must have met with Mr. Ferrara.  He's going to put questions

19     to you, following the report you drafted and documents related thereto.

20     He's going to submit documents to you, following which Mr. Seselj, who's

21     sitting on your left-hand side, is going to cross-examine you.  It may be

22     that the three Judges sitting in front of you also have questions to you.

23             These are very technical matters, so please do endeavour to be

24     very precise, and if you have the feeling that we fail to understand,

25     then you can expand on your answers.

Page 11562

 1             This is what I wanted to tell you.  Without further adieu, you

 2     may proceed, Mr. Ferrara.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             Given the Court's decision on 7 November 2008, qualifying

 5     Mr. Strinovic as expert with respect to his report concerning the

 6     exhumation and identification in Ovcara, I won't be covering a tremendous

 7     amount of his background.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Ferrara:

 9        Q.   Very quickly, Dr. Strinovic, you say that you testified before

10     this Tribunal in the Milosevic, Martic, and Mrksic trials.  Were you

11     asked to provide a new report in the case against Mr. Vojislav Seselj?

12        A.   Yes, I was asked to present my current position in connection

13     with this particular subject matter.

14        Q.   Do you have this report in front of you?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, can we have on the screen the 65 ter

17     number 7250.  Meanwhile, we can continue with the questions so we save

18     time.

19        Q.   With this report, did you provide to the office of the Prosecutor

20     your updated curriculum vitae, CV?

21        A.   Yes, I did, that is correct.

22        Q.   Could you please tell us the highest degree, including

23     specialisation, you hold, and from what institutions you obtained this

24     degree?

25        A.   As I've said, I'm a forensic medicine specialist.  After that, I

Page 11563

 1     obtained my Master's and Doctoral degree at the Medical Faculty in Zagreb

 2     and became an assistant professor and later on a professor, full

 3     professor, at the Medical Faculty.  And within the last two months, I've

 4     also been head of the Forensic Medicine Institute.

 5        Q.   So you are also a professor.  Where do you teach?

 6        A.   As I've already said, I teach the subject forensic medicine.

 7        Q.   Your CV had mentioned commissions and congresses you have

 8     participated in.  Did these include topics that are of interest in this

 9     case, so such as identification, exhumation, and cause of death?

10        A.   Yes, of course.  Namely, after we started with the exhumations

11     within the institute and then at state level, and gaining experience in

12     that field, we presented our cases to the international public by

13     publishing articles or by participating in congresses where we presented

14     our experiences with exhumations and identifications, both classical DNA

15     and other types of identification, and we passed on our experiences to

16     the international scientific community, as is standard in these meetings.

17        Q.   Have you ever written books or scientific papers on these topics?

18        A.   Yes.  As I've said, we wrote scientific articles and also parts

19     of books dealing with the subject of forensic medicine generally, and

20     specific chapters dealing with exhumation and identification in mass

21     disasters of the kind that war is.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your own country, how many

23     forensic pathologists are there?  Are they to be counted in scores, or

24     hundreds, or is it just a handful of you?  How many of you are there?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true, Your Honour,

Page 11564

 1     Croatia is a small country with 4.5 million inhabitants.  We have 20

 2     forensic pathologists, of which 12 or 13 are purely specialised in this

 3     discipline, and others are pathologists and also specialise in other

 4     disciplines.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since you are a professor in

 6     forensic medicine, can it be said that you are the number one in forensic

 7     medicine in Croatia?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wouldn't put it that way.

 9     There are other professors who are retired but who cooperate with us

10     always, but we do work in the number one institution in our state.  That

11     is the oldest and the biggest forensic medicine institution in Croatia,

12     and I am the director or the head of that institute.

13             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   You say that you have some -- you have testified before this

15     Tribunal in other cases.  Did you submit any written report in that case,

16     Milosevic, Mrksic and Martic trials?

17        A.   Yes, I submitted reports in those cases as well.

18        Q.   Do you have this report in front of you?

19             Your Honours, for your assistance and of the accused, is the

20     report number 2672.  That is the second document in the first binder.  I

21     will give you this reference along with all the testimony just for your

22     assistance and for the accused.

23        A.   Excuse me.  Where exactly is this that your question is about?

24        Q.   It is the second document in your binder.

25        A.   What is the answer that you require from me?  I see these

Page 11565

 1     documents.  These are my documents, I wrote them.

 2        Q.   Did you draft this report; yes?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   With your report -- this is the report in the Milosevic and

 5     Mrksic case, and attached to this report there are several tables related

 6     to certain localities in the former Yugoslavia, including Ovcara, near

 7     Vukovar, and Vocin.  They are the only two localities involved in our

 8     case.

 9             Before you come to testify, did you have the opportunity to

10     examine your documentation concerning these locations?

11        A.   Yes, I did, I did have an opportunity to do that.

12        Q.   Would these underlying documentation be available in your office

13     in Zagreb, and could it be reviewed if the Court or the parties would

14     like to do so?

15        A.   I can say the following:  All the documents which are associated

16     with the work that was done in the Forensic Medicine Institute in Zagreb,

17     all these documents exist at the institute in written form as well as in

18     computerised form, whereas the documents associated with cases done by

19     other experts, they also exist, but they are in the Commission for

20     Missing Persons.  For instance, a case in point is that of Ovcara, where

21     we did not process or participate in the process of examining the

22     post-mortem remains, and that is why those documents are not kept in the

23     institute, as are those pertaining to cases that were processed by us.

24        Q.   We have already said that you were asked to submit a new report

25     for the case against Mr. Seselj.  I'd like to direct your attention to

Page 11566

 1     this report that you produced for the present case.

 2             That is, for the assistance of Your Honours and for the accused,

 3     the first document in the first binder.  That is the 65 ter number 7250,

 4     and of course I will seek to tender both these reports at the end of the

 5     examination of the expert.

 6        Q.   Is that the report that you produced for this case, the first

 7     document in your personal binder?  The first document, the tab 1.  Maybe

 8     I was not clear.

 9        A.   7520, you said?

10        Q.   Yes, it is the 65 ter number.  7250, I'm sorry.  I changed that

11     one number.  7250.

12        A.   [In English] Tab 1?

13        Q.   Tab 1.

14        A.   [Interpretation] I'm unable to find that number.  This is my

15     material, that's for sure, but I cannot find the number that you're

16     asking me about.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Strinovic, it's the first

18     document in your binder.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document which I drafted for

20     this particular case.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Okay.

22        Q.   Just some general questions.  Firstly, would you be so kind to

23     define, in very brief terms, what is forensic pathology?  Very briefly,

24     of course.

25        A.   Forensic medicine is a branch of medicine which deals with a

Page 11567

 1     specific subject matter.  It is associated with medicine and traumas,

 2     primarily meaning all kinds of wounds and causes of deaths, and forensic

 3     medicine in fact serves to help translate medical subject matter to court

 4     language and thereby make proceedings in court possible.

 5             The basic thing which we do is to establish -- ascertain causes

 6     of death after post-mortems, i.e., for the needs of courts.  Apart from

 7     the cause of deaths, the manner of death and also the weapons used.  We

 8     also establish all other forms of violence which lead to the injuries of

 9     persons and establish the mechanism of the infliction of injuries.  And

10     that is the -- and those are the fundamentals of forensic medicine.

11        Q.   You mentioned in paragraph -- in the first paragraph of this

12     report that in December, 1991 until now, you have participated in the

13     work of the Croatian government Commission for Detained and Missing

14     People; am I right?

15        A.   Yes, that is right.  Namely, at the beginning of the war, which

16     is to say in October or November of 1991, we were faced, in the Republic

17     of Croatia, with the formidable problem of a great number of missing

18     persons, and the first thing we did in that situation was to set up a

19     commission, the so-called Commission for Detainees and Missing Persons,

20     which was to collect data related to what happened to such persons.  So

21     this commission started working in December 1991, and for a number of

22     years, up to this very day, has been in existence, and the basic problem

23     still remains missing persons.

24             I have to note that today in Croatia, we still have a thousand

25     persons who are unaccounted for and are considered missing persons.

Page 11568

 1        Q.   So could you briefly explain to us the purpose of this

 2     commission?

 3        A.   As I've stated, the commission's task was to create lists of all

 4     missing persons.  Then it was to get in touch with the families of the

 5     missing persons, gathering data on such persons.  Also, the commission

 6     liaised with the then former Yugoslavia and later Serbia in connection

 7     with missing persons.  It also had similar contacts with the authorities

 8     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, trying in that way to collect as much data as

 9     possible that might facilitate the later work on tracing such persons,

10     whether they were captured persons or dead -- killed persons, and to

11     later also find their gravesites and identify them.

12        Q.   What was the nature of the commission's work when the conflict

13     was still in process, so between 1991 and 1995?

14        A.   As I've already said, from 1991 to 1995 the commission had a

15     theoretical, we can say, part of its work, which is to collect and

16     exchange data, talk to other parties, and thus it endeavoured to create

17     as large a database as possible from which -- upon which to draw

18     subsequently in the process of identification, which only started in

19     1995.

20        Q.   What was the nature of the cooperation between your commission

21     and the Yugoslav government commission in that period?  Was it smooth or

22     difficult?

23        A.   I have to say that particularly in the beginning, namely, 1992,

24     when these meetings were first held, they were always monitored by

25     international organisations.  They were very difficult and very scant

Page 11569

 1     useful information was obtained in the beginning of these negotiations.

 2     Later, the commission increasingly -- cooperated increasingly better with

 3     both the Serbian and the Bosnian sides, so that today these commissions

 4     are still in touch and are still cooperating, and that cooperation is

 5     much better.  But talking about the beginnings, 1991 and 1992, those

 6     meetings were very difficult, and the results were quite meager.

 7        Q.   You say that at the beginning of the war, it was established,

 8     this commission.  Do you know if there was a specific event that set

 9     up -- that moved to the decision to set up this commission?

10        A.   I can say that there were a number of reasons for setting up this

11     commission.  Certainly, a war which resulted in such a large number of

12     victims, with so many people missing and killed or in camps was one, but

13     the decisive factor why already in December 1991 we set up this

14     commission was the event which took place in the Vukovar Hospital;

15     namely, over 260 persons went missing from that hospital, and nothing was

16     known of them until the mass grave at Ovcara was found.  Obviously, this

17     incident at the hospital had a specific weight which accelerated the

18     formation of this commission.

19        Q.   What was your specific role within this commission and what it is

20     now?

21        A.   My role in the commission then, in 1991 and 1992, was to collect

22     and obtain data regarding missing persons, in cooperation with the Red

23     Cross and the families of the missing persons.  Also, we were to look for

24     data that would be of interest for later identification, the ante-mortem

25     data with characteristics of the missing persons, and in that regard it

Page 11570

 1     was particularly important to collect such data as early as possible and

 2     to get the best-quality data so as to facilitate our later work in the

 3     exhumation and identification processes.  It was essential, from the

 4     medical standpoint, to get the best possible descriptions of the missing

 5     persons, to obtain all the ante-mortem data, namely, information that

 6     would assist us later in transacting our identification part of the work

 7     as quickly and efficiently as possible.

 8        Q.   Could you describe very briefly for the Trial Chamber the

 9     procedure of exhumation and identification, and what kind of

10     qualifications were involved in this procedure?

11        A.   Every procedure of exhumation requires preliminary actions, in

12     terms of talks with witnesses and the identification of the location of

13     the mass grave.  In the majority of cases, it took us a very long time to

14     find the mass graves, to find the places where the bodies had been

15     buried.

16             Once the location for exhumation has been established, then we

17     would start with our preparations, meaning examination of the terrain to

18     see whether there were any mines or any other devices that could

19     compromise the exhumation itself.  Then we would secure the site and

20     start with the exhumation proper.  It was done by a team headed by a

21     physician, either a forensic medicine expert or a pathologist, and he

22     supervised the exhumation, namely, the digging up of the mortal remains

23     of the people buried there.

24             The objective of every exhumation is to try, as painfully and --

25     painlessly and as efficiently to reach the body without injuring it,

Page 11571

 1     without -- and with all the articles associated with the body in question

 2     to be preserved along with the body, not to mix them with the articles

 3     belonging to other persons, i.e., other bodies.

 4             So the exhumation meant digging up the body, and once the body

 5     was presented, it would be individually placed in a body-bag, which would

 6     be marked with numbers inside and outside the bag, and the thus marked

 7     bag would then be further processed either in the -- at the site itself

 8     or in the dissecting room, where the conditions are of course much

 9     better.

10        Q.   The exhumations that were conducted as a result of the war in

11     Croatia, were they conducted by the Croatian government, through your

12     commission, or were they also conducted by international organisations?

13        A.   Initially, especially when larger mass graves were in question,

14     international organisations did the exhumation and we were present there

15     in the capacity of monitors.  Also, the Serbian side always had its own

16     observers attending such procedures at mass graves.

17             When we took over the complete procedure of exhuming mass graves,

18     an international organisation would always be present, so that

19     practically throughout all these years, there was always an international

20     organisation present when the mass graves in Croatia were being exhumed.

21        Q.   Concerning the qualifications that were involved in this

22     procedure, can you tell us very quickly what kind of qualifications were

23     involved in the exhumation, in the analysis of mortal remains and in the

24     identification process?

25        A.   That is quite a complex question.  I shall try to be as brief as

Page 11572

 1     possible and as clear as possible.

 2             The procedure of exhumation itself, for instance, in the Ovcara

 3     case was taken over completely by international organisations, meaning

 4     first anthropologists and archaeologists attended the scene, they did

 5     their measurements, and then after they proceeded with the digging, which

 6     was archaeological-type digging, meaning inch by inch, in order to

 7     completely and efficiently have such a gravesite presented, i.e., the

 8     mortal remains in it.

 9             When Croatia was in charge of such exhumations, we did not have

10     archaeologists because we do not have such experts, and it was conducted

11     by specially-trained people who did the excavation, the digging up,

12     always supervised by physicians, i.e., by forensic medicine experts and

13     pathologists, who saw to it that the exhumation was being carried out

14     properly and at the best possible level at the given moment.  That is as

15     far as exhumations are concerned.

16             As regards the subsequent processing, it was relatively the same,

17     by international experts and by us in Croatia, but I do have to mention

18     that not all cases were processed in optimal conditions, which is to say

19     at institutes.  A part of cases where we had a larger number of mortal

20     remains, such as that of the Vukovar Cemetery, where there were over

21     1.000 mortal remains, the complete processing was done at the cemetery

22     itself, where we had makeshift tents and makeshift conditions for such

23     work, and the forensic experts, the forensic medical experts, with the

24     help of technicians, processed the mortal remains there in-situ, and the

25     identification was also done at that location, because we invited the

Page 11573

 1     families of the exhumed persons to attend the site and we were able to

 2     identify most of the bodies.  The bodies had been well preserved, so that

 3     identification in the field was possible.

 4             In all complex cases of identification, namely, when much time

 5     has elapsed since death and where the bodies were damaged or heaped in

 6     piles, the identification was done in adequate institutions where -- and

 7     the majority of the cases were processed at the Forensic Medicine

 8     Institute in Zagreb where, first of all, there was an X ray machine and

 9     every body was X-rayed, every single body was X-rayed to ascertain any

10     changes that might indicate the causes of death or possibly facilitate

11     identification, such as the existence of prostheses or metal objects in

12     the body that could assist us in this identification procedure.

13             After the X-raying of every single body, the forensic medicine

14     expert would start his processing, assisted by an anthropologist who

15     would ascertain on the basis of the bones the stature, the height, the

16     age of that person, such persons, and also help establish the cause of

17     death.  Then there was the dentist, who inspected the complete status and

18     established the complete status of the teeth, also to aid later

19     identification.

20             So that after such processing, a sample of the teeth or of the

21     bones would be taken for DNA analysis, and thereby such a procedure would

22     be completed in terms of the processing of the mortal remains.  That data

23     obtained in this way, by this post-mortem, could then be compared with

24     the previously-collected ante-mortem data which we collected since 1995,

25     which then all together would facilitate the identification.

Page 11574

 1             So we had the post-mortem procedure in the room itself, plus the

 2     data obtained previously -- would be compared to the data obtained

 3     previously, and that is how we were able to identify the mortal remains.

 4             That was the so-called classical method of identification when,

 5     by collecting all relevant data, the age, the sex, the height, the

 6     stature, the status of the teeth, different damage and disease on the

 7     body itself, possibly some medical interventions that could be seen,

 8     objects, articles, documents, all those were collected and were of

 9     relevance, and all these made it possible for us to compare all these

10     elements with the ante-mortem data obtained from the relatives and

11     family, on which basis we then made a classical identification, which in

12     80 per cent of the -- which is the manner in which 80 per cent of the

13     identifications in Croatia were made.

14             When this was impossible to do this way, we performed a DNA

15     analysis, which only started to be applied as of the year 2000.

16        Q.   Why did you start only in 2000?

17        A.   As I was saying, the DNA analysis -- well, there's a new method

18     there, a new method in the world that started in the 1990s, but it was

19     only experimental.  But then in practice, it was only at the end of the

20     1990s and the beginning of the year 2000 when the method became more

21     prominent, and so we started using it.  And we included DNA analysis,

22     which was able to give us 100 per cent certainty the identity of an

23     individual, and so on and so forth.  And I can explain this.

24             Samples of the bone tissue or teeth were taken from the deceased

25     person, and then the DNA is isolated from the samples, and then that DNA

Page 11575

 1     is compared to the blood of relatives.  Parents is best, or the wife and

 2     child -- her mother and child.  And then with 99 per cent certainty, we

 3     can establish who the person is, the identity of the person.

 4             The DNA analysis is of great assistance to us in our work,

 5     although there are cases where that doesn't help too, and it doesn't help

 6     in carbonised bodies, that is to say, bodies that have been completely

 7     burned, or when the bones are too small, too minute, and have laid on the

 8     surface of the soil and are damaged or dried out, so bones of that type

 9     cannot be used for DNA analysis.

10             So as I say, although DNA analysis is a very good method, we're

11     not able to use it in all cases.  There are cases where we have no

12     relatives to go by to compare the samples and to take blood from, and

13     therefore we're not able to establish identity.  So as I say, DNA

14     analysis facilitates our work greatly.  However, it's not all powerful.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Professor Strinovic, you

16     mentioned DNA analysis.  On the list of people who were exhumed in the

17     Ovcara mass grave, i.e., 200 people, 11 people have not been identified.

18     They have been given a number, OCV 011, OCV 015.  There are at least ten

19     people who have not been identified.  Since they have no name, I assume

20     that families contacted the institute to try and find their relatives.

21             Did you compare the DNA of these unidentified people with the

22     hundreds or thousands of people that are looking for a relative to

23     cross-reference the data and see whether, in terms of DNA analysis,

24     identification is possible?  How is it that today some people have been

25     dug out of these mass graves and that these people still do not have a

Page 11576

 1     name?

 2             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, for the answer, for the record, there

 3     isn't 11 people not identified.  I think there are seven people not

 4     identified in Ovcara in that report, because it says, the last page of

 5     the report, page 7, that up until the moment of writing this report, 193

 6     bodies.  Maybe it's a misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I had a list which mentioned 11

 8     bodies.  Even if there are seven bodies, how is it that these persons

 9     have not been identified, particularly if there are relatives that are

10     looking for them?  A family that comes to see you, do you take a sample

11     of their hair to be able to conduct a DNA analysis?  I assume you do.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honour, to be

13     as brief and clear as possible.

14             The problem of DNA identification precisely lies there,

15     especially when we're talking about victims of war.  We can't identify

16     them.  Now, we have the example of Ovcara, and as you said, there are 7

17     out of the 200 that we have not been able to identify.  We started the

18     process in 1996, and it's been 12 years since then, and we've been

19     working on the matter intensively, but we still haven't identified seven

20     persons.  Now, why is that?

21             At the Zagreb Cemetery, for example, we have 400 bodies that are

22     not identified yet.  They have been processed, but we have not

23     ascertained who the people were, so a large number.

24             We do have information about missing persons, and we have taken

25     blood samples from most of these people, that is true, but unfortunately

Page 11577

 1     we still do not have all the relatives, all the blood samples, and here's

 2     why:  Because some people moved out of the area, another portion has

 3     died, and in certain cases we don't know who the person is.

 4             And you asked about those seven specific cases.  We don't know if

 5     they're on the list of 200 or 260 persons or whether there are some other

 6     people.  For example, let me try and clarify this.

 7             We had a list for 260 missing persons, but there was no -- there

 8     were no women on that list, whereas in Ovcara we found the bodies of two

 9     women.  So they weren't on the list but their bodies were found, and we

10     managed to identify them.  So these lists are not 100 per cent correct,

11     especially in wartime.  So you don't know who all the bodies are who are

12     in a mass grave.  We don't know who these seven are, whether they are

13     people on the list or not.

14             And, secondly, although every six months or one year we go out to

15     look for relatives, ask them to give blood samples, and they come to us

16     for assistance, but we still cannot solve all the cases in that way.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On listening to you, I was

18     thinking about those seven bodies that have not been identified.  Can we

19     assume the following?  In the Ovcara mass grave, if victims had been

20     buried a few days or a few months prior to that and that the persons who

21     had been executed at Vukovar were then buried in the same place, with the

22     forensic techniques you have, are you able to assess exactly on what date

23     a body is buried or aren't you able to do that, which would explain why

24     seven people from Ovcara may have come from the hospital who, to date,

25     have not been identified yet?

Page 11578

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to answer that

 2     question, Your Honour.  What I can say is this:  There is no certain

 3     method today or procedure by which one would be able to determine, within

 4     the space of seven, ten or twelve years, when the people were killed, but

 5     what we can say, when we are faced with a mass grave of this kind, is

 6     that we can say that those -- the people in the grave were killed at

 7     around the same time.

 8             Now, just to illustrate how difficult it is, we determine the age

 9     of the body, that is to say, how long the body -- the person has been

10     dead until the corpse was found on the basis of certain signs.  There are

11     no scientific methods by which you can do this, just signs to indicate

12     that a body has laid there for a long time.  So we established the signs

13     of death, whether it has been skeletonised, whether it has -- whether

14     saponification has taken place, what kind of putrifaction has taken place

15     and so on.

16             In Ovcara, where we have a large number of bodies, around 200, on

17     the surface -- not because they have been killed previously, but because

18     they are on the surface, those bodies had already been skeletonised or

19     partially skeletonised, whereas bodies that were dug into the earth

20     deeper and the last bodies that were found, those bodies were saponified,

21     not because these people were killed later but because they were dug

22     deeper into the ground, where the process of putrifaction, decay, was

23     much slower and the process was different and saponification set in so

24     that the deeper embedded bodies were saponified, whereas scar tissue was

25     evident, skin was evident and so on, whereas the skeletonised bodies on

Page 11579

 1     the surface were killed on the same day or around the same time, but the

 2     bodies have a different appearance because they were on the surface and

 3     were rather skeletonised rather than saponified.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One last question.  Of course,

 6     we could spend hours on this, but one last question.  What about these

 7     seven unidentified bodies?  I suppose they have a DNA profile.  I suppose

 8     that for each one of them, you conducted DNA tests.  And for each one of

 9     these seven bodies, I suppose you have a DNA profile.  It looks like a

10     barcode that we're all familiar with .

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  All

12     these seven unidentified corpses, well, we isolated their DNA, their DNA,

13     but we haven't got anything to compare it with and then have a DNA

14     profile to match it up with the relatives.  So we need blood samples in

15     order to do that.

16             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, I would like now to turn your mind to the

18     exhumation at Ovcara.  You were involved in monitoring that exhumation;

19     that's correct?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   When was the mass grave at Ovcara discovered?

22        A.   The mass grave at Ovcara was discovered in October 1992, when

23     Clyde Snow, an anthropologist from America, came to Ovcara, and he

24     discovered a gravesite.  And on the surface or just below the surface he

25     came across human bones, and they were the bodily remains of a young

Page 11580

 1     male.  And he found a cross that the person obviously had worn around his

 2     neck, and he established with a great deal of certainty that it was

 3     probably a Croat.

 4        Q.   Concerning this work done by Dr. Snow, I want to show you some

 5     photos.

 6             Your Honours, it is the 65 ter number 2163.  It is a Powerpoint

 7     presentation with 28 slides related to the initial discovery of the site.

 8     In your binders and the accused's binders, you find the slides at binder

 9     7, document 42.

10             I would ask that you see these photographs, Dr. Strinovic, and

11     then comment on them.  I will tell the usher when the slide should be

12     stopped.

13             So, Your Honour, the Powerpoint presentation will not work

14     because all the computers are not working today, so we have these photos

15     in e-court with one number.  We can see the photo one by one, and I stop

16     the photos.  Of course, it will take a lot of time, but it's not

17     [indiscernible].

18             So let's continue, let's go on.  Go on.  You can continue until

19     slide 5.  Yes, continue.

20             Can you tell us -- can you comment on this photo you have seen,

21     and in particular this one?  What is this?

22        A.   Your Honour, I'd just like to say briefly that I was in this

23     particular locality for the first time, that is to say, the mass grave at

24     Ovcara, in 1996, and these are photographs taken earlier.  So when I

25     arrived there, I'd like to say that on the right-hand side it's a large

Page 11581

 1     field.  On the left-hand side, we can see some trees, and along the edges

 2     of those trees there's an area right by that little wood there or -- is

 3     the site where the grave was.  The photographs we saw earlier on, aerial

 4     photographs, there you can see the location of the mass grave or, rather,

 5     the first photograph taken by Clyde Snow linked to the skeleton that we

 6     saw.  You could see the skull, in actual fact; obviously, a human skull.

 7     And that is what led to further investigation and suspicions that there

 8     was, indeed, a mass grave there.

 9             MR. FERRARA:  We can continue with the next photo.  Just stop

10     here.

11        Q.   Do you know the person or the persons in this photos, the people

12     here?

13        A.   I know one of them, Clyde Snow.  He is the elderly gentleman

14     wearing glasses and a hat, standing by this wire fence.  When Clyde came

15     for the first time in October 1992 to Ovcara, he asked for military

16     assistance or, rather, that the area be secured, and it was secured as

17     you see it with this barbed wire.  And that's how the place was secured,

18     as far as I know, right up to 1996, when the exhumation process began.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Okay, you can continue.  Go on, go on, until I say,

20     "Stop," please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I ought to mention the

22     following:  This site is the site of the mass grave, and you can see that

23     water has been collected in the indentation, and that's where Clyde Scott

24     [as interpreted] found the photo we saw in the slide a moment ago.

25     That's a slight depression there where the water has gathered, and this

Page 11582

 1     on the very edge of the thicket or the trees.  On the other side, you

 2     have the fields.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Okay, let's continue.  Go on.  Continue.  Continue,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what is this in this photo?

 6        A.   We can see part of a human body here, the arm, with part of the

 7     clothing, and this was the beginning of the deeper exhumation that took

 8     place in December 1992.  It was a trial exhumation, if I can put it that

 9     way.

10             MR. FERRARA:  Let's continue.

11        Q.   What's this?

12        A.   Yes, that's the trial exhumation, preliminary exhumation.  There

13     was very little time and the commission had to leave the area quickly for

14     political reasons, so that they wanted to probe the area to see how many

15     people might be buried, then how big the grave might be, so they made a

16     probe and dug for some eight or nine metres and tried to establish what

17     earth had been dug up and what soil was untouched, and so they deduced

18     from there.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Let's continue.  Go on.  Let's continue.  Let's

20     continue.

21        Q.   Can you explain us what are doing -- what are these soldiers

22     doing?

23        A.   These soldiers established some damage -- strange damage on the

24     trees growing there, and that was right in the vicinity of the grave.

25     They found some defects, holes running through the trees, which had

Page 11583

 1     obviously been caused by projectiles passing through the tree trunks.

 2             MR. FERRARA:  Let's continue.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To your knowledge, were these

 4     Russian UNPROFOR soldiers?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  As far as I

 6     know, as of 1992, the guards securing the area were guards from the

 7     Russian Battalion, yes.

 8             MR. FERRARA:

 9        Q.   What is this in the photo?

10        A.   Yes, this is what we were discussing a moment ago.  This is a

11     body buried on the surface, in the surface layer, and the soil had fallen

12     away from the corpse.  This is a male skull, skeletonised, as you can

13     see, and it's about a year since this person died.

14             MR. FERRARA:  Okay.  Let's continue.  Let's continue.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what you see here?

16             Let's move to the other slide that is more clear, the following.

17        A.   This is an object found on the person on the surface; that is to

18     say, the skeletonised skull we saw a moment ago belongs to that

19     particular person, and nearby was this rosary or pendant worn by young

20     people, especially in the 1990s.  It was a symbol of belonging to the

21     Croatian people, being an ethnic Croat.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Let's continue.  I think we can move very quickly

23     to the end of the photos.

24        Q.   What does this photo represent?

25        A.   Once again, we have the symbol of a saint esteemed by the

Page 11584

 1     Croatian people, and very often it was sewn onto the clothing worn by a

 2     Croat, a Croatian national.

 3        Q.   I think it is the last one, the last one photo.  Okay.

 4             Dr. Strinovic, looking at those slides, briefly can you describe

 5     the process that occurred in that first excavation that you have already

 6     done and what did doctors know made after this discovery?

 7        A.   When we're talking about Ovcara, let me repeat that Ovcara was

 8     discovered in October 1992 and then was visited in December by Clyde Snow

 9     and another team of experts, when they did the probes and trial

10     exhumations, and this area was secured, as I said, by the Russian forces.

11     It was cordoned off with barbed wire, and as far as I know the site

12     remained intact, untouched, until the exhumation officially began in

13     1996, on the 30th of October, and went on until the 2nd of November,

14     1996, when anthropologists and archaeologists, international ones,

15     conducted the full exhumation of the area.

16             Would you like me to go into that in greater detail or shall we

17     do that in due course about the actual exhumation process at Ovcara

18     itself?

19             MR. FERRARA:  I think maybe it's time for the break, Your Honour,

20     and maybe we can continue this topic later on.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  We're going to break for

22     20 minutes.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 11585

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

 2             You may proceed, Mr. Ferrara.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             I'd like to tender the photos that we've seen into evidence.

 5     It's 65 ter number 2163.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have a number for the

 7     photos, Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these documents shall be given

 9     Exhibit number P611.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             MR. FERRARA:

11        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, you say that the Commission for Detained and

12     Missing Persons was set up in 1991.  Did the Croatian commission and the

13     Yugoslav commission meet at the time before the discovery of the mass

14     grave at Ovcara?

15        A.   Yes.  As I've already said, the commission started meeting in

16     1992 on a regular monthly basis, once a month, initially, and we met in

17     Hungary, in Budapest, so -- or in another place, so we met before the --

18     before the discovery of Ovcara.

19        Q.   On that occasion, did you discuss the problem of the missing

20     people from the Vukovar Hospital?

21        A.   Of course, one of the principal topics of our talks, at least

22     from the Croatian side, was the question of the missing people from the

23     Vukovar Hospital, so that every time -- I'm not sure of the number, but I

24     believe we had between seven and eight meetings in 1991, and that was on

25     the top of the agenda every time.

Page 11586

 1        Q.   And from the representative of the Yugoslav commission, at the

 2     time it was Yugoslav, after it became Serbian commission, what was the

 3     response to this issue?  Did they have information in relation to these

 4     missing people?

 5        A.   It was really such a long time ago, I cannot recall all the

 6     details.  But to the best of my recollection, we did not get any

 7     information in relation to Ovcara, nor was it recognised, acknowledged as

 8     such.  But it was about some persons, but not about that particular case,

 9     so we never got that particular reply from them, as far as I remember.

10        Q.   You say that the full exhumation of the site occurred in 1996; am

11     I right?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That was in the fall of 1996, from October

13     to November.

14        Q.   Do you know why the site wasn't exhumed or the bodies weren't

15     exhumed in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996?  It took four or five years --

16     four years before exhuming these people, these bodies?

17        A.   As far as I know, the international organisations were willing

18     and prepared and had ready teams to start exhumations in 1992 and 1993,

19     but due to political reasons, political considerations on the Serb side,

20     that was prohibited so that no exhumations could take place until 1996.

21        Q.   Was that area Serbian territory until 1996?

22        A.   It was the so-called Krajina, so that, yes, it was in their

23     hands.

24        Q.   Do you know that if between 1992 and 1996 the site that was found

25     by Dr. Snow was protected?  And by whom, if "yes," of course?

Page 11587

 1        A.   As I have said, in October 1992 Dr. Snow found that gravesite,

 2     and at that time it was secured by barbed wire and it was guarded by

 3     Russian soldiers, by their units with international forces known as

 4     UNPROFOR.

 5        Q.   When the site was discovered, were you or the people involved in

 6     this process, were you sure it was people missing from the hospital in

 7     1992?

 8        A.   According to what information we did receive, and the information

 9     would be gathered in Croatia immediately after the disappearance of a

10     person or a group of persons, namely, the list would be immediately made

11     within a matter of days, we did suspect that those people who went

12     missing from the hospital and were seen at the Ovcara farm could be the

13     persons at that locality who had perished, and we really did suspect that

14     the Ovcara gravesite actually had the people from the Vukovar Hospital.

15        Q.   Did you have an idea how many people were buried there in October

16     1992, when the site was discovered by Dr. Snow?

17        A.   What we knew was that -- that about 260 per cent had been taken

18     from the Vukovar Hospital aboard five buses.  And we did not know the

19     exact number at the Ovcara gravesite, but we supposed that it was a large

20     number and that it could have been the 260 persons who had gone missing

21     from the Vukovar Hospital.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen the document 65 ter

23     number 1697.  It is in the binder 7, document 43, for the accused and for

24     the assistance of Your Honours.  It is a newspaper article dated 28th of

25     October 1992 from Novi Vijesnik.  It is the fourth document in your

Page 11588

 1     binder, Dr. Strinovic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  That article has not

 3     been disclosed in full, just in parts, and it was photocopied in a very

 4     odd way.  The second question is the relevance of it.  What does a

 5     newspaper article have to do with the exhumations and identifications of

 6     bodies carried out?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you say, Mr. Ferrara?

 8             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I believe that the copy of the entire

 9     article, the back, the other part of the article.  I don't know what is

10     missing.  I think nothing is missing here.

11             For the relevance, it is an article published immediately

12     after --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please give us the

14     number?  It's not recorded in the transcript.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, 65 ter number 1697.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which is the number of the

17     binder?

18             MR. FERRARA:  I'll repeat it.  It is binder 7, document 43.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that's binder 7, fourth

20     document in that binder.  2289, that's the number I have.

21             MR. FERRARA:  43, yes.  Your Honour, it's 43, document 43, but

22     the 65 ter number with the document is what I said is 1697.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

24             MR. FERRARA:

25        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, could you read the title of the article?

Page 11589

 1        A.   You probably mean this title:  "Any survivors in the darkness of

 2     Ovcara?"

 3        Q.   So it would be that after the discovery of the mass grave, it was

 4     possible there were still people alive, missing from Vukovar Hospital?

 5        A.   Yes, it is true that in relation to the list of the persons

 6     missing from the Vukovar Hospital, some people were later found alive.

 7     Those are people who perhaps were released during transportation to the

 8     Ovcara farm.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judges, please take a

10     look at my copy of that article.  On one side, you have the cover page of

11     the newspaper -- of the newspaper page.  On the other page, you have the

12     other part.  You don't have the middle.  In other words, the photocopying

13     of it was not done properly.  That is why this cannot be used as a

14     document, not to mention the objection regarding the relevance of this

15     text.  Such as it stands, it cannot be used.  This is not a complete

16     text.  Maybe you have it in the English version.  I do not have it in the

17     Serbo-Croat.

18             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You don't have the complete

20     text, but what is interesting is that on the 28th of October, 1992, there

21     was an article raising the issue of whether there were survivors from

22     Ovcara.  That's the issue.  Now, as to the article, that's secondary.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Ferrara.

24             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Exactly what you said.  So

25     I would like to tender this document into evidence.  I mean only the

Page 11590

 1     title of the article, not the content, of course.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The title.  Very well.  Let's

 3     have a number.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this comment of

 5     yours can also refer to the question:  Were there any discussions in the

 6     public about whether there were any people who survived from among those

 7     who were taken away from the hospital?  But in order for this article to

 8     be exhibited, it has to be complete.  It is not complete in the Serbian

 9     language, apart from the fact of its -- the fact that it's not really

10     relevant.  But I cannot use it in my counter-examination if it is not

11     complete.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, my -- sorry.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give it an MFI

15     number, Mr. Registrar, because apparently it's not complete.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It is going to be given MFI number P612.  Thank

17     you, Your Honours.

18             MR. FERRARA:  My case manager has already requested a better copy

19     of the article.  I think we can provide it before the end of the

20     examination of Dr. Strinovic.

21        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, did you have the opportunity to read the report of

22     a preliminary site exploration of a mass grave near Vukovar in the former

23     Yugoslavia drafted by Physicians for Human Rights?  It is 65 ter

24     number 1773.  It is in the binder 1, document 4.

25        A.   Yes, I did have the opportunity to read it.

Page 11591

 1        Q.   Can you briefly summarise what did emerge from this preliminary

 2     report that was drafted in January 1993?

 3        A.   Well, in brief, I can say that this text speaks about the

 4     existence of a mass grave, about what was done at that time, that is, in

 5     1992, and how it was secured, the gravesite.  Just general things

 6     associated with the location of that gravesite, with the Ovcara locality,

 7     and an attempt at carrying out further exhumations, which however was not

 8     possible.

 9        Q.   You say that you went to Ovcara in 1996, when the exhumation

10     started.  When you went there in 1996, was the situation similar to the

11     one described in this report or did you notice any relevant change after

12     four years, about three years and a half?

13        A.   I could answer in this way:  I was not there in 1992 and 1993,

14     but according to the photographs, i.e., the description that we are

15     talking about now, the situation has not considerably changed.  The only

16     thing which has changed is the vegetation that has grown, so that that

17     has changed it, but basically it is the same place as it was.  It is the

18     same since 1992, when Clyde Snow found the gravesite, until 1996, when we

19     went there to attend the scene and watch the exhumations being carried

20     out.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this document into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question beforehand.

24     You can guess that I examined -- I scrutinised with great care this

25     report by American physicians based in Boston, and upon reading the

Page 11592

 1     report, one notices that they probably had information from witnesses.

 2     That's page 2, where they said that according to some witnesses, some

 3     reservists, JNA soldiers and officers, and then all the events are

 4     described at 6.00 and so on.  So all that is very specific, so obviously

 5     they had information.  Obviously.

 6             So when did you hear of the existence of this report, which was

 7     done on the 18th of January, 1993?  You, when did you read it?  Because

 8     it is a very detailed and very precise report.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it for the first time

10     yesterday.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Oh, I see.  You'd never -- so

12     you found out about its existence yesterday only; you had no knowledge of

13     it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not before.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And this is a very

16     detailed report in which they explain that there was a bulldozer that dug

17     a grave of nine metres by seven, so everything was said in this report.

18     Obviously, they must have had information.  And I was somewhat surprised,

19     I must confess, when the doctor that went there found a skull, I mean,

20     they must have had information, prior information.  You can't just, by

21     happenstance, find a skull sort of out of the soil.  I mean, there was

22     fighting everywhere, of course, but how could you imagine that beneath

23     that skull there were 200 bodies?  They must have had information, had

24     they not?  What do you think?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only say what I said before.

Page 11593

 1     We knew that about 260 persons had been taken from the Vukovar Hospital

 2     by buses in that direction, and we got information that they were at the

 3     farm at Ovcara.  After that, all trace was lost of them.  On the basis of

 4     that information, we could suspect that those bodies would be somewhere

 5     in the vicinity.  That is how I drew that conclusion.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.  Let's have a number for

 7     the document, very official document.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P613.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             MR. FERRARA:

10        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, you say the full exhumation occurred in 1996.  Who

11     conducted that exhumation?

12        A.   As far as I know, these were experts designated by the ICTY.

13     They were international experts from all over the world.  I do not know

14     the exact name of the commission which carried out the exhumation and the

15     subsequent processing, but as far as I know, these were experts appointed

16     by the ICTY and the UN.

17        Q.   To your knowledge, was it conducted under the Yugoslav Tribunal

18     authority or was it in any way involved with the Yugoslav Tribunal?

19        A.   To my knowledge, when the Ovcara exhumation started, there were

20     present as monitors representatives of Croatia, which is to say myself

21     and some other people, and representing Serbia was a professor from Nis.

22     And as far as I can remember, there was a doctor from Vukovar.

23        Q.   How long did the exhumation last of retrieving the bodies from

24     the grave and delivering them?  Approximately, of course.

25        A.   The exhumation started on the 30th of August, 1996, and lasted

Page 11594

 1     until the 2nd of October, 1996.

 2        Q.   Where were the bodies transferred -- transported after the

 3     exhumation?

 4        A.   When the bodies were taken out, they would be placed in white

 5     bags, and all together were then transported to the Forensic Medicine

 6     Institute in Zagreb at Salata.  At that time, there was constructed a

 7     special space precisely for that purpose, for the identification of the

 8     Ovcara victims, and later those premises were used for all subsequent

 9     identifications that were conducted at our institute.

10        Q.   Where were the autopsies conducted, and when, and by whom?

11        A.   The bodies would be transported to Zagreb, to the Forensic

12     Medical Institute, into special rooms tailormade for that particular

13     purpose, which are today still used for that particular purpose, the

14     processing of victims of war.  They are some 50 metres away from our own

15     premises, those of the Pathology Institute.  This was done also by

16     international experts, just as the exhumation itself.  There were

17     monitors present as well from all over Yugoslavia, including from Serbia.

18        Q.   So in relation to this first phase, the exhumation and autopsy,

19     your role as the forensic pathologist within the commission, as we say,

20     was to -- only to monitor rather than conduct the exhumation; am I right?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   After the -- and after the autopsies were completed, who was in

23     charge for identification of the body?  Who was put in charge?

24        A.   After all the mortal remains had been completely processed, they

25     started on the 5th of October and were finished on the 16th of November,

Page 11595

 1     1996, of all mortal remains of the persons found at Ovcara, protocols

 2     were written for some time after that, the administrative part of the

 3     procedure, that is.  After that, the mortal remains were handed over to

 4     the Croatian authorities, i.e., to the Forensic Medicine Institute, in

 5     other words to me, who was in charge of the identification team.  The

 6     moment we received the mortal remains, we also received the autopsy

 7     reports, reports which contained descriptions of the bodies with all the

 8     details associated with their identification.  But at that time, we were

 9     not given the causes of death in respect of the persons concerned.  That

10     was omitted from the protocol.

11        Q.   Why not?  Why were not you given the causes of death?

12        A.   The explanation which was given to us was that what we had

13     received was sufficient for us for identification purposes and that the

14     cause of death was a bit of information which is of relevance to the

15     Court and would be submitted to the ICTY, rather than to us in charge of

16     identification stage.

17        Q.   Before moving to the identification process, that is, the process

18     that you were personally involved with as a member of the commission and

19     as a forensic expert, I would like to show you a serious of photographs

20     taken from the exhumation that occurred in 1996.

21             Please, can we have on the screen the 65 ter number 2710.  It's a

22     serious of 35 photos taken during the exhumation.  As before, I will stop

23     you, the usher, when we have some photos that we need a comment from the

24     witness, from the expert.  Is in the binder 6,  document 25, Your

25     Honours, for your assistance and the accused.

Page 11596

 1             Can you explain, Dr. Strinovic, what we see in this photo

 2     number 1?  Was this fence erected we see on the right side of the photo?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is the locality of the mass grave which is in the

 4     middle of this space.  We see some trees on the left side and a fence on

 5     the right-hand side which was erected in order to divide the mass

 6     gravesite from the rest of the area.  Then tents were erected to house

 7     the people in charge of the exhumation itself.  So this fence was put up

 8     in order to divide the area of the mass gravesite from the other area

 9     where people were moving about.

10        Q.   Let's turn to photograph 2, the second photo in the series.

11     Doctor, we see a white building - it's not very clear - on the right side

12     of the photo.  Can you tell us, what is this white building?

13        A.   These are tents that were pitched on the other side of the fence

14     which separates the mass grave from the rest of the terrain, so this is

15     where the people who did the exhumations were, where they rested, where

16     they waited for their scheduled exhumation times.

17             MR. FERRARA:  If we can slowly click through photos from 3 to 4

18     and stop at photograph 5.

19        Q.   Doctor, looking at photograph 5, what do we see here?

20        A.   This is the access to the gravesite at Ovcara.  A road was

21     subsequently cleared to enable machines and people to arrive at the site.

22     We can also see the fence which separates the gravesite from the outer

23     world.

24             MR. FERRARA:  Again, if we could move through the photos until

25     photo 10, photograph 10.

Page 11597

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] What's the purpose of all these

 2     photos, Mr. Ferrara?

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, it's to show the situation at Ovcara

 4     that was found in 1996 and how the situation was exactly the same as

 5     1992, so it was not any kind of interfering on this site in these four

 6     years.  It was protected.  And also we see the body situation, how the

 7     bodies were found, and the skulls, and so on.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is this a disputed question?

 9             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I think everything is disputed by the

10     accused.  If it's not disputed, we can tender the photo even without

11     showing it, because, you see, we filed a motion to take judicial notice

12     of this fact -- sorry, as adjudicated facts, and until today the accused

13     has challenged this motion, so I think that really everything is

14     disputed.  We can ask the accused.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You see, my point is that I would be hesitant

16     even to admit them into evidence because I don't see the relevance.

17             MR. FERRARA:  I think it's relevant, of course.  Maybe when we

18     finish seeing the photos --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, how many photos

20     did you want to show us, how many more?

21             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, all the photos in total are 35, but I

22     will stop only on some of them.  Of course, it's a bunch of photos all

23     together.  So if we can move to photo 10.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to comment on it?

25             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, please.

Page 11598

 1        Q.   What is this?

 2        A.   A trench that was excavated can be seen to establish the

 3     boundaries of the gravesite.  This is the way we dig in order to reach a

 4     boundary without damaging the bodies, but in order to determine the size

 5     of the grave itself.

 6        Q.   What was the size of the grave; do you remember?  Approximately,

 7     of course.

 8        A.   It is hard for me to give you the exact dimensions.  I believe

 9     that they were of the order of nine times seven metres.

10        Q.   Let's move to photo 12.  Can you tell us, looking at this plastic

11     sheeting, what's the purpose of this plastic sheeting?

12        A.   To the best of my recollection, in 1993 and in 1992, when we did

13     the trial excavations, a part of the grave was protected in this way and

14     that plastic foil was then covered by earth, by soil.  That is why it

15     remained there.

16        Q.   Okay.  Let's continue, please, to photo 14 -- or 15, sorry.

17             Is this 14 or 15?

18             We see here an excavator that we see in this photograph.  How did

19     that assist the excavation, the excavator ?

20        A.   Well, I can tell you this:  In most cases, there were large

21     gravesites, a large surface area, and these were small excavators,

22     earth-moving material, and they were of great assistance, because in

23     digging the trenches the size of a grave would save time.  Now, of

24     course, when the excavator came upon a body, they would stop using the

25     excavator and go on to manually digging up the grave.  In large

Page 11599

 1     gravesites, in most cases, especially if they are at great depths like

 2     two or three metres, then of course digging up the bodies is much quicker

 3     if you have these excavators to assist you.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  If we can move to the slide --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, how much time

 6     has been used so far?

 7             MR. FERRARA:  If we can go to slide 23.  It's not this one, it's

 8     not this one.  Next one, please.  It's not this.  23.

 9        Q.   Doctor, can you explain what you see here and indicate what the

10     meaning of that number 5?

11        A.   The photographs are rather dark, but that's how it was in the

12     actual locality.  Here we can see a number of bodies intermingled, and

13     the number 5 means that the individual who will be taken out is the fifth

14     person in order.  This was on the surface, and every body was given a

15     number.  It said "Ovcara," numbers 1 to 200.  This is obviously body

16     number 5 extracted from the grave.

17        Q.   So you say that --

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you have 20

19     minutes left, so please show us the important photograph which you wish

20     to tender into evidence, and please go to the point.

21             MR. FERRARA:  This was the last one.

22        Q.   So you said that numbers were assigned to the bodies that were in

23     the grave, and this number followed the body until now?  So until now,

24     this is the body of Ovcara victim number 5; am I right?

25        A.   Yes, that is right.

Page 11600

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number

 4     for the photographs, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  These other documents shall be given Exhibit

 6     number P614.  Thank you.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  If we can go now to the 65 ter document 2689.  It

 8     is a table entitled "Paragraph 49."  It relates to a chart that is

 9     attached to your report, prepared for the Milosevic case.  So it's binder

10     6, document 26.

11        Q.   Can you comment on the statistics in this table?

12        A.   Yes.  The table shows the 200 bodies, of which we show the number

13     that -- the number of people suffering gunshot wounds, trauma and so on.

14     Of the 200 individuals who were killed, 195 were killed --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation].

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was saying, 188 were gunshot

17     wounds, six individuals were killed through trauma, and one person was

18     killed by stabbing.

19             MR. FERRARA:

20        Q.   What does it mean, "killed by trauma," "killed by shooting,"

21     "killed by stabbing," "trauma"?

22        A.   Most of these individuals found in Ovcara were killed by gunshot

23     wounds; that is, projectiles fired from firearms.  The people that died

24     through trauma, that means that we cannot determine the means used to

25     kill them.  It must have been blows with certain objects which led to

Page 11601

 1     injury and death, other than firearms.  Whereas stab wounds, since the

 2     tissue was preserved, we were able to ascertain that there were a number

 3     of stab wounds in the torso and neck of the individual concerned.

 4        Q.   What is this -- when you say "stabbing," I don't see the word

 5     "stabbing" here.  Where do you find this "stabbing"; under the category

 6     "Other Violence," maybe in there?

 7        A.   Yes, it's the column where the cause of death has been

 8     ascertained.  Under "Other," other violent deaths.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us the youngest age and the eldest age of the people

10     found killed at Ovcara?

11        A.   [In English] Yes.  As you can see in paragraph 49 of my report --

12     [interpretation] The youngest was 16.  The oldest was 72.

13             MR. FERRARA:  I'd like to tender this table into evidence.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number

15     for this table, please.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  This shall be Exhibit number P615.  Thank you,

17     Your Honours.

18             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have the document 65 ter number 2687.  It is

19     in binder 6, document 28.  It is the next document.

20        Q.   Can you tell us what is it this list represent, and who prepared

21     this -- drafted this list?  It is the document 10 in your binder, 10.

22        A.   On this table, we can see the names -- the first names and last

23     names of the persons identified at Ovcara, their date of birth, and it

24     says "Pos ID," that is to say, positive identification as a separate

25     column under "Status."  So it is a list of persons from Ovcara, along

Page 11602

 1     with their dates of birth.

 2             MR. FERRARA:  I'd like to tender this document into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have a

 4     number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This shall be Exhibit number P616.  Thank you,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I believe we don't have enough time

 8     to examine with the expert, of course, the autopsy report.  I will put

 9     questions to the expert in relation to just three of these autopsy

10     report.

11             In relation to one autopsy report, my aim is adding a general

12     explanation of the standard template followed in drafting all the autopsy

13     report, and in fact you can see that all the report are drafted according

14     to the same template.  And I think that the answers given by the expert

15     concerning one report can fit exactly to all of them that I will ask to

16     tender into evidence.

17             In addition, I want the doctor to comment specific details in

18     other two autopsy report, because they are particularly interesting for

19     our case.  It's one of the women that was killed at Ovcara and one of the

20     stabbing that we found in these bodies.

21             To tender the autopsy report, I prepared a list.  I have here a

22     hard copy for Your Honours and for the accused as well, where I mentioned

23     all the -- the number of the autopsy with this reference the doctor gave

24     us is OCV 001, 002 and so on, with identification, so with the name of

25     the -- of the body, of the person who was found there, the date of birth,

Page 11603

 1     the date of the document, the autopsy, the English ERN, the 65 ter in our

 2     list, and the identification document, if it exists, because in a lot of

 3     bodies, as the expert will explain, were found a lot of document,

 4     identification document or other documents that were used to identify the

 5     person found in the mass grave, and the photos were taken.  Of course, I

 6     did not prepare the set of photos related to all victims.  I selected

 7     only 10 of them, just to give an explanation to the Trial Chamber.

 8             So if we can give this list, and I want to comment the -- from

 9     the witness that 65 ter number 2297, that is the autopsy report in

10     relation to Ovcara victim number 9, Josip Balog.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In what binder is the autopsy

12     report?

13             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, it's binder 2, document 37.

14        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, if you can, very briefly, of course:  Is this the

15     autopsy report that was prepared by the international group -- the

16     international group of pathologists; I'm right?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.  More or less the 200 reports were done in

18     this way, like the one we have in front of us.

19        Q.   Can you comment on the main entries of this report?  Of course,

20     we don't want you to read, but just that short area.

21        A.   Well, the essential points with respect to the report and the

22     prototype, you always have the number of Ovcara, Ovcara 9, then the date

23     when the autopsy was conducted, and brief information regarding the age,

24     sex and whether they were left-handed or right-handed.  Then any

25     interesting pieces of clothing are listed and other facts that might be

Page 11604

 1     of interest for identification purposes, personal documents, if they are

 2     of interest.  In this specific case, what was found was an ID card made

 3     out to Josip Balog, which means that identification was made easier.

 4     Then there's an external examination with descriptions of what was found

 5     on the bodies.  Some were skeletonised, others were well preserved, which

 6     made the description much more detailed.  The state of the skin, various

 7     deformities that the person was born with or gained later on in life.

 8     And if the organs were present, then a description of those organs; an

 9     examination of the teeth and their description, which are especially

10     important for identification purposes.  Then there was a column specific

11     to Ovcara which was any signs of hospital treatment, because it was

12     thought that most of these people had been treated in hospital, they had

13     been patients in a hospital.  Then traumas linked and associated with

14     death, and the injuries that were found, if any evidence such as

15     projectiles or anything else that were found that could have been the

16     cause of death, those are recorded.  And then you have the column "Cause

17     of death" and "Manner of death," "Killing."

18        Q.   You say that you did not receive the entire report until such

19     time, I don't remember.  Which part of this report did you receive from

20     the internationals?

21        A.   As I've already said, when we received the bodies, we received a

22     partial report from the international experts which went up to "Trauma

23     associated with death."  We didn't receive that column, "Trauma

24     associated with death," neither did we receive the column "Cause of

25     death."

Page 11605

 1             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this report into

 2     evidence, together with the other 199 that are indicated in my list.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2297 shall be given

 5     Exhibit number P617.  Thank you.

 6             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, for the other document, I think the

 7     exhibit number will be assigned outside the court, not in court, because

 8     we need one hour to [indiscernible] the numbers.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document is document 2856;

10     is that right?

11             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, maybe I was not very clear in my

12     explanation.  The document 2856, we have to show -- we have to show to

13     the witness this 2856.  This is a table for your assistance to follow the

14     document in the court binder, the autopsy report.

15             Now I show to the witness this document 2856.  That is the

16     document that was admitted already in the Mrksic and Milosevic.  But in

17     this document I gave you, it is more complete because we found the number

18     of identification document and the photos document.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So show him the

20     document.

21             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen the document 2856.

22             Your Honours, this chart that we prepared, it is only a list of

23     200 autopsy report.  Of course, I have yet to enter the autopsy report,

24     but if you want, I can tender all of them, but I think it is not

25     necessary.  We can tender only the list, and we can have the exhibit

Page 11606

 1     number outside the court.  So we can have an exhibit number starting from

 2     the chart, one by one.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Ferrara, you have two

 4     alternatives.  You can ask to tender all the autopsy reports or you are

 5     just asking for this document to be tendered into evidence and that

 6     refers to all the autopsy reports.  It's for you to decide.

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender all the autopsy

 8     reports, but to have a quick list -- short list of the autopsy report, I

 9     created this chart.  Of course, I have the autopsy report here with me,

10     but I think ...

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give a number to the

13     list, but show the table to the witness first.

14             MR. FERRARA:  2856 on the screen, please.

15             THE WITNESS:  [In English] What is this?

16             MR. FERRARA:  It is document 12, your document 12.

17             THE WITNESS:  What is the question?

18             MR. FERRARA:

19        Q.   Can you tell us what does this chart represent?

20        A.   [Interpretation] This table represents the names and surnames of

21     persons who have been identified and the way in which they were

22     identified, which means that it was the classical method that was

23     applied.

24        Q.   I think you're -- 12.

25        A.   Yes, 12.  On this table, we have the names and surnames of the

Page 11607

 1     persons identified, their date of birth, who conducted the autopsy, when

 2     the autopsy was carried out, and in what way; the classical method or in

 3     any other way.  The date of birth of the individual that was identified

 4     is also there.

 5        Q.   Do we have in this chart the reference to the autopsy report, so

 6     the number of the autopsy report?

 7        A.   Yes.  There is the number Ovcara 1.  Yes, the number's there.

 8        Q.   So we have all the autopsy report number until 200, or we see

 9     200; am I right?

10        A.   Yes, that is right.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have an exhibit number

12     for this document, please, Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be given Exhibit number P618.

14     Thank you, Your Honour.

15             MR. FERRARA:

16        Q.   Just in relation to the victim that we have seen before,

17     Mr. Josip Balog, can we have very quickly the 65 ter number 2706 in the

18     screen.  It are the photos taken of the body.  If we can move very

19     quickly to the photo.

20             Your Honours, these are a set of photos taken of this victim

21     number 9, that is Josip Balog, in this case.  These is just a template of

22     the photo that were taken of the body, and I'd like to tender just ten of

23     them that are in our 65 ter list, just as an example of the video was

24     taken in -- was made in the pit.

25             So if we can go to most interesting, to the photo 17, very

Page 11608

 1     quickly.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, do you feel that

 3     these photographs are really necessary or not, since we have the list

 4     that refers to all the autopsy reports?  Do we really need to have these

 5     photographs, do you think?  Technically speaking, it's not a problem as

 6     far as I'm concerned, but do we really need these photographs?

 7             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, we tender just this set of

 8     photographs for one victim, just to have an idea of what activity it was

 9     made in the field.  I think it's important, because, for example, with

10     this victim we found we have the paper document, the identification paper

11     at the photo 18, so the doctor has explained a lot of times we found

12     these kind of documents in the victims, which is easier to identify them.

13     So if you go there, the doctor can confirm in the photo 18.  I think it's

14     important also because we have this list of people missing from the

15     hospital and the people that was found in the pit on the field.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, to gain some time:  When

17     the bodies were exhumed, you found ID papers, for instance, on some of

18     the bodies, in the case of Josip Balog, you found this document during

19     the exhumation.  Coins were found, money was found, and various documents

20     were found.  Can you confirm that all of this was found on the bodies

21     during the exhumation?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, I can tell you what

23     was found.  In some cases it was personal documents, in others it was

24     medical documents or something similar that indicated the identity of the

25     individual, and all this helped in the identification process.

Page 11609

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when it says in the column

 2     "Classical identification," it is thanks to this that the body has been

 3     identified, all the more so that this document was found on the body; is

 4     this why this is termed classical form of identification?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not the only method of

 6     identification.  We cannot give a name and surname to a person only on

 7     the basis of a document.  We must find other elements, too, regarding

 8     height, sex, and various other elements that bear out and ascertain the

 9     identification.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give an exhibit number to

12     all these photographs.  Registrar, can we have a number, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these photographs shall be given

14     Exhibit number P619.  Thank you.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen the 65 ter number 2371.

16     That is in the binder 4, document 25.  It is 16 in your binder.  It is

17     the autopsy report of Ovcara victim 174.

18        Q.   Can you tell us the cause of death for this victim?

19        A.   In the case of Ovcara 174, it was multiple stabbing wounds to the

20     torso, head and neck.

21        Q.   So is it correct to say that the only lethal wounds in this case

22     was a stabbing; am I right?

23        A.   Yes, that is right.

24             MR. FERRARA:  I seek to tender these documents, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have an

Page 11610

 1     exhibit number for this document, please.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be given Exhibit number P620.

 3     Thank you.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen the 65 ter number 2503.

 5     It is the Ovcara victim number 095.  This is one of the two women found

 6     at Ovcara.

 7        Q.   What can you tell us about this victim?

 8        A.   Very briefly, this is a female.  She was killed with multiple

 9     gunshot wounds to the head, and upper leg, the pelvis area, and also the

10     thorax, the ribs, et cetera.  So there were gunshot wounds all over her

11     body, from the neck down.

12        Q.   Would it be possible to say -- it is to say that she was pregnant

13     or not?

14        A.   No.  On the basis of the autopsy report and what was found during

15     the autopsy, there was no conclusions made as to whether she was pregnant

16     or not.

17        Q.   Why not?  Can you explain us?

18        A.   The reason is that due to putrifaction, the fetus, which is

19     composed of water mostly, disintegrates and disappears, and therefore

20     pregnancy in cases of this kind, that is to say, persons who were buried

21     in the ground for a long time after death, no traces of pregnancy are

22     found or of the fetus are found.

23             MR. FERRARA:  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have an exhibit number,

25     please.

Page 11611

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This shall be Exhibit P621.  Thank you,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Let's move to the other location.  It's Vocin, and

 4     I have really a few questions on the location.

 5             Please can we have on the screen the 65 ter number 2670.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Vocin is a location

 7     where the pattern of the joint criminal enterprise is supposed to be

 8     shown, not --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Vocin relates to deliberate

10     conduct, deliberate.  Are you saying that in Vocin, people were killed?

11     Is that what you would like to say?  Vocin is part of the deliberate

12     pattern.  Are you wanting to establish that people were killed in Vocin?

13             MR. FERRARA:  Exactly, Your Honour.

14        Q.   What can you tell us about the Vocin crime scene in relation to

15     your finding?  Were you there?  Did you go to Vocin?

16        A.   Yes.  According to the information we had, the people had been

17     killed in Vocin on the 13th of November, 1992, and the autopsy was done

18     on the 17th of December.  It was carried out in Slatina, which is a place

19     in the vicinity of Vocin.

20        Q.   How many corpse were found there?

21        A.   Forty-three.

22             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I seek to tender into evidence this

23     chart.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  A number for this document.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be given Exhibit number P622.

Page 11612

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. FERRARA:

 3        Q.   Did you take part to the identification process of the bodies

 4     found at this mass grave in Vocin?

 5        A.   In Vocin, it was not a classical mass grave, but rather when the

 6     dead bodies were found in the street, in the houses, they were collected

 7     and taken there.  This was a village where these bodies were found.  As I

 8     say, they were of 43 persons, so they were well preserved, so that the

 9     autopsy was performed just as in a situation when you deal with recently

10     deceased persons.

11             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen, then, document 834.  The

12     document is already admitted into evidence, Your Honours, as P581.  I

13     want to ask the witness only if this is the list of the victims found at

14     Vocin.  It is the list in binder 7, document 46, the 21st of your binder,

15     21.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is that list, that is

17     correct.

18             MR. FERRARA:  Can we have on the screen the photo with 65 ter

19     number 2715.

20        Q.   This photo and the following -- the next one is related to a

21     victim Stojan Nenadovic.  Dr. Strinovic, what detail -- what does this

22     photo tell us about the cause of death?

23        A.   This is an elderly man who died a violent death due to multiple

24     blows by a blunt object to his body.  We can see on his shoulder and

25     right arm irregular traces which are consistent with the blows of a chain

Page 11613

 1     or a similar object, and irregular trauma on the head which could have

 2     been inflicted by a booted foot, by a hand, fist, or some other similar

 3     object.

 4        Q.   Do you know why this person was killed?  And if you know, how did

 5     you learn it?

 6        A.   When we arrived in Slatina to conduct the autopsy, we were

 7     informed by the police guarding the area that it was a male of Serb

 8     ethnicity whose son had been a member of the Croatian Army, and that is

 9     why this man was killed in this way.

10        Q.   So is this the only --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  This exceeds the

12     possibilities of the expert report.  The expert is here speaking about

13     the motives -- the possible motives of the killing.  He can just say one

14     thing, which is that the victim was identified and that it was a Serb.

15     Why the person had been killed, that is beyond the expert's -- the

16     witness's capacity.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if you did, as I

18     did, participate in an autopsy, you would know that the forensic

19     pathologist carrying it out seeks information from the people bringing

20     the body as to the circumstances.  So before he starts with the medical

21     examination as to the manner of death, that's what you do, isn't it,

22     Doctor?  You are brought a corpse, and then you ask questions to find out

23     in which circumstances the person was found, met her end, and maybe fell

24     out of a window, was run over by a bus.  That's what is asked before you

25     carry out the post-mortem?

Page 11614

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is exactly how we

 2     proceed with every forensic medical autopsy.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honour, I seek to tender into evidence this

 4     photo.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you give us

 6     a number for this document.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be Exhibit number P623.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             MR. FERRARA:  My last question.

10        Q.   Concerning these 43 people killed at Vocin, did you have the

11     opportunity to review the expert report containing the forensic analysis

12     of bodily injuries and corporal wounds of victims from Vocin drafted by

13     Dr. Kraus, Zorislav?  That is 65 ter number 1748.

14             That is for your assistance, Your Honours, and the accused, in

15     the binder 2, document 25.

16        A.   Yes, I had occasion to read that report.

17        Q.   Can you tell us, really briefly, the content of this report and

18     if you agree with the conclusion in this report?

19        A.   Dr. Kraus, on the basis of the records made by forensic medicine

20     physicians in Zagreb, us who conducted the procedure, he formed an

21     opinion -- drafted an opinion for the needs of the Court.  On the basis

22     of our records, he established the causes of death, which we had also

23     established.  He established the manner of the infliction of the wounds

24     and possibly the position of the person inflicting the wound and the

25     person who died.  All this was derived from our own protocol which we had

Page 11615

 1     written and submitted to the Court, and I fully subscribe to those

 2     findings, to that report.

 3             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I seek to tender this into evidence.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  A number, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  This shall be P624.  Thank you.

 6             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, before ending the questions, I ask to

 7     tender into evidence the report of Dr. Strinovic bearing 65 ter

 8     number 7250, drafted for this case, and his previous report with 65 ter

 9     number 2672, drafted for the Milosevic and Mrksic case that we used today

10     for his testimony.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's give two MFI numbers.

12     Indeed, only after the cross-examination will we decide whether we need

13     to give final numbers or not.  So we need to have MFI numbers for 7250

14     and 2672.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these two documents shall be given

16     MFI numbers P609 and P610.  Thank you.

17             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, and concerning the document that was

18     tendered, the press article that received the MFI P612, here I have a

19     better copy of the article.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please give the copy to

21     Mr. Seselj so that he can check that it is now a complete document.

22             MR. FERRARA:  This concludes my examination-in-chief.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             Mr. Seselj, you now have the complete article.  Let's give a

25     number.  So the MFI number will become now a final number, Mr. Registrar.

Page 11616

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI document P612 will become Exhibit P612.

 2     Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             We're going to break for 20 minutes, and then Mr. Seselj can

 5     start with his cross-examination.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

 9             Mr. Seselj, you now have the floor for your cross-examination.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

11        Q.   Mr. Strinovic, when was it that you were at this mass grave near

12     Ovcara for the first time?

13        A.   As far as I remember, that was in 1996, but I'm not quite sure.

14        Q.   And do you remember what month it was?

15        A.   In 1996, when I was at the mass grave, it was just before the

16     excavations; that is, it was August or thereabouts.

17        Q.   And did there exist this filled road, this road that you just

18     showed us moments ago in the photograph, or was it constructed later?

19        A.   Work was being done on the road about that time, but when it was

20     finished, it is hard to say.

21        Q.   Otherwise, one could not reach the mass grave in a regular car;

22     one had to use an all-terrain vehicle or a tractor?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That's the way it was.  It was a very

24     impassable road.

25        Q.   It was actually the field road used by tractors, combine,

Page 11617

 1     harvesters and such?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct, that is what I heard.

 3        Q.   And you were there in August, that is the height of summer, that

 4     is the dry season, there is no rain; right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is how it usually is.

 6        Q.   In October and November, the rains are heavy and everything is

 7     soaked, so one cannot get there except by tractor or a caterpillar fitted

 8     vehicle or something similar?

 9        A.   Yes, a specially for that purpose outfitted vehicle.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Strinovic.  This answer of yours to this question

11     is very important, although you may find it odd, because you know we had

12     some false witnesses here who claimed that they used a private luxury car

13     in November to reach from Ovcara to this pit to execute people.  That is

14     why I'm asking this, so that you don't think that my questions make no

15     sense.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused please pause

17     between question and answer.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You supervised, oversaw the exhumations as director of the

20     Forensic Medicine Institute in the majority of cases; right?

21        A.   Yes, generally, not only in this case.  Rather, I organised the

22     work but the supervising of the exhumations was done by other people, but

23     I was there on a daily basis.

24        Q.   This included exhumations where the Serbs had been victims, like

25     in Pakracka Poljana and Gospic, victims of mass crimes, that is?

Page 11618

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Tell me one thing.  When you saw this number, 260 found bodies --

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're both speaking the same

 4     language.  So, Witness, before answering questions put to you by

 5     Mr. Seselj, wait for a little bit to allow the interpreters to translate

 6     what you have said, because you're talking very fast and the interpreters

 7     have difficulty following you.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This mass grave at Ovcara, I suppose, is the biggest in terms of

10     the number of exhumed bodies.  Right?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.  In Croatia, that is the largest mass grave

12     that has been detected.

13        Q.   And when you saw this number of 260 bodies, did it seem a bit

14     odd?  200 executed people could not have been the result of some

15     spontaneous action by a gang on the rampage or some territorial seeking

16     revenge, or any other groups.  Was it not obvious that someone had

17     ordered the execution of precisely 200 people, because it is a very small

18     degree of probability that it was precisely 200 people that were killed

19     and thrown into a mass grave?

20        A.   I have to tell you this in answering:  I really never gave any

21     thought to what you're asking me now.  I was there as an expert.  I came

22     to the mass grave, I heard what the number was.  Why precisely 200, I

23     cannot really say.  It is very difficult for me to give you an answer to

24     that question.

25        Q.   Well, I see in the case of the murder of Stojan Nenadovic, the

Page 11619

 1     Serb, you ventured into some -- to give some lengthier explanations of

 2     these secondary circumstances which had led to the crime.  The Croatian

 3     public was informed about this case of Ovcara very much, there was very

 4     much written about it; right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is quite correct.  Victims of Ovcara are,

 6     unfortunately, one of the sad symbols of Croatia, and very much was

 7     indeed written and said about it.

 8        Q.   Then you should be aware of the fact that not all the prisoners

 9     who had been taken to Ovcara had been killed.  207 actually came there,

10     but 7 were released, their lives were spared.  Do you know that?

11        A.   Yes, I know that.  I know that not all the people who had been

12     taken to the farm of Ovcara were executed.  Some were let go.

13        Q.   A total of seven were set free.  We know some of them, Dragutin

14     Berghofer, Emil Cakalic, Vilim Karlovic and some others.  I cannot recall

15     all the names, but we have established with certainty that there have

16     been seven of them.

17             As an expert of forensic medicine, as a secondary circumstance

18     you found 200 bodies.  You know that there had been 207 prisoners, and

19     someone decided to let 7 go.  So someone had planned that precisely 200

20     be executed, and those who carried out the order wouldn't do anything

21     more than they had been ordered to.  A crime is a crime, there is no

22     doubt about it, but those who committed the crime did not want to surpass

23     the figure of 200; isn't that obvious?

24        A.   Look, I cannot give you an answer to the question the way you put

25     it.  I know about these seven people who were released.  There was a

Page 11620

 1     story associated with each one of them as to why he or -- he had been

 2     released, either knew a Serb soldier or was on good terms with somebody.

 3     So there was a reason why these seven people were set free.

 4             As to this precise number of 200, I cannot give you an answer,

 5     either as an expert or I in my personal capacity, why it had been that

 6     precise number.  Was it accidentally or purposefully, I don't know,

 7     really.

 8        Q.   We had occasion here to see that some other people also tried to

 9     save their acquaintances or friends, and once the number of seven had

10     been filled, they were no longer able to do that.  This doesn't say

11     anything to you, does it?

12        A.   I have given you an answer to that.  I don't know about that.  I

13     really don't know anything about it.

14        Q.   Fine.  Do you know that there was a larger number of people at

15     Ovcara, that a large number of people had been at Ovcara, and a large

16     number of people participated in the executions?

17        A.   As regards the number of people who participated in the

18     executions or those who were at Ovcara, I don't have that data.  I

19     couldn't tell you with precision or even approximately how many people

20     were involved.

21        Q.   But you should know how many pieces of weaponry were used in the

22     execution, because you established that on the basis of a review of the

23     found bullets or cartridges; right?

24        A.   I can give you an answer to this question by saying that I know

25     how many people were killed and what the wounds were which caused their

Page 11621

 1     deaths, but as regards the number of cartridges, that is up to the

 2     ballistic experts, those who looked for and found those bullets or

 3     cartridges, and this is a question for that kind of a specialist, for the

 4     ballistic expert.

 5        Q.   But in the course --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Following the question put to

 7     you by Mr. Seselj, let me now deal with a very technical issue.

 8             You, yourself, as part of your specialty, when you perform a

 9     post-mortem examination, do you have any ballistic data at your disposal,

10     and don't you work in cooperation with the ballistics specialists in

11     order for you, at the time of the autopsy, to be able to determine the

12     path and the trajectory of bullets with the help of the ballistics expert

13     by knowing, for example, what was the calibre of the weapon, what sort of

14     impact that calibre can have?  In other words, do you work in close

15     cooperation with a ballistics expert or not at all?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two stages.  The first

17     stage is when the autopsy is being carried out, when we look for the

18     cause of death.  When there is a gunshot wound, we can only sometimes

19     determine the calibre with which the wound had been inflicted.  If it

20     involves those parts of the body, it is usually a bone where there is the

21     exact diametre of the damage, which indicates what the calibre

22     diametre -- the diametre of the calibre had been.  So when we do the

23     post-mortem, actually, we do not yet know what kind of a weapon was used.

24     Later, when there is -- when the expert analysis for a court is being

25     made in the second stage, we cooperate and form a joint opinion with a

Page 11622

 1     ballistic expert, and a ballistic expert determines the calibre of the

 2     projectile, its velocity and its characteristics, but not on the basis of

 3     the post-mortem report, because that is impossible, but on the basis of

 4     the found projectile which can be found in-situ, which is much more

 5     simpler, or in the body, rather, or if it is found elsewhere, which is a

 6     bit more complicated.

 7             So these expert analyses establish the characteristics of the

 8     projectile, whereas we establish the cause of death and the wound caused

 9     by projectile, but we cannot exactly say what kind of a projectile.  We

10     can draw indirect conclusions when there is vast damage, for instance, to

11     the cranium or to the body, to the trunk, that speedy projectiles had

12     been in question, those fired from a weapon used for war purposes.  These

13     are usually long-barrelled weapons which cause massive damage, which

14     suggests to us that it was a high-speed projectile which could have been

15     off this or that calibre, approximately.  But the actual calibre is

16     established by the ballistic experts by finding the projectile near or

17     inside the body, or the cartridges of the projectile.

18             We can seldom speak about the direction which the projectile took

19     in passing through the body.  We can talk about the direction from which

20     the shot had been fired, but not the actual movement direction of the

21     projectile in the body.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have seen a number of

23     autopsy reports, and I was very surprised to see that at no point was

24     there mention of whether the fire was opened at close range or not,

25     because in cases of execution, you can very well imagine that this would

Page 11623

 1     be done very near to the victims.  Did you also notice that in the

 2     reports, that none of that type of information was provided?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw that this information was

 4     missing, but I have to explain, as a forensic medical expert, why that is

 5     so.

 6             When wounds of this kind are in question, sometimes we can indeed

 7     establish that the shooting took place at close range or at a very short

 8     range of several millimetres from the body, in which case a massive,

 9     irregular defect will be caused by the shot, usually in the skull, where

10     we can see great damage, massive damage of the bones, or in other parts

11     of the body with massive damage to the tissue.  Sometimes only the bones

12     remain and we cannot see these characteristics, the close-range

13     characteristics.  But when we have a speedy projectile, there will be

14     massive destruction, just as in the case of close range.  And if we only

15     have a bone and not soft tissue, it is difficult to tell what the

16     distance had been.

17             In other words, when we have bodies that have been in the earth

18     for many years and the post-mortem is then done, and the distance of the

19     shooting established, it is very hard to do on the basis of the remaining

20     bones or tissue.  But to establish that there had been a firing from

21     close range, that is -- that is something that should have been

22     described.  I have no other explanation.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for you,

24     Professor Strinovic.

25             Was it possible to establish whether the individuals found in

Page 11624

 1     that mass grave were, for some of them, killed on the spot, after which

 2     they fell into the grave, or was it possible to establish whether some of

 3     them were killed in another location and whether their bodies were then

 4     removed and thrown into the mass grave once they had been executed?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can give you the

 6     following answer to that question:  When you have gunshot wounds, which

 7     was the case in the majority of cases, multiple gunshot wounds had been

 8     in question, and death was a consequence of those gunshot wounds,

 9     obviously, where exactly the shooting had taken place is impossible to

10     conclude on the basis of the wounds themselves.

11             However, when the supplementary processing was conducted by

12     ballistic experts, and we participated by just attending the scene, and

13     they showed us the places where there were a large number of cartridges

14     and were able to see vegetation, i.e., damage to vegetation, which

15     indicates that there had been firing at that location, it was obvious

16     that it was the site of the shooting.  So most probably the bodies then

17     fell into the already-dug pit.  So I can just conclude by the

18     indications, because the found cartridges and the damage to the trees on

19     the other side, that it had been the place where the shooting had taken

20     place.  And as I said, most probably because of the multiple gunshot

21     wounds, we can conclude that the shooting took place where the mass grave

22     is, but we cannot say that with precision.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Strinovic, I presume that you know what a magnum revolver is.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11625

 1        Q.   It has a very specific calibre.  Do you know what that calibre

 2     is?

 3        A.   No, I don't know, being no ballistic expert myself, but I know it

 4     has a very strong impact and effect.

 5        Q.   As I have to be a ballistic expert, I know that it is a .357

 6     calibre.  It is called a magnum .357 calibre in ballistics.  Does that

 7     ring a bell?

 8        A.   I understand what you're saying.

 9        Q.   It has a very specific calibre, and had that calibre was used in

10     liquidating the prisoners, that cartridge would have had to be found; is

11     that not a fact?

12        A.   Not necessarily.  It depends what part of the body was pierced,

13     where the bullet passed.

14        Q.   A witness here claimed that one of the perpetrators, as criminals

15     say, verified the people.  I suppose that's the term they also use where

16     you come from; namely, after the people had been executed, he came up to

17     every victim and shot him in the head in order to finish him off.  So if

18     that were true, if that had been true, all the .357-calibre bullets would

19     have been fired into the cranium, and that would have had to be

20     established by the post-mortem analysis if that had really happened,

21     really?

22        A.   Yes, that would have to have been seen by a post-mortem examiner.

23        Q.   If there had been ten or so or more such cases, some of the

24     bullets would have been fired into that part of the skull which certainly

25     would not have been hit had the man been erect when he was executed and

Page 11626

 1     when he was being shot at.  There is a part of the cranium, the top of

 2     the cranium, where you can shoot a man who is standing upright only from

 3     the air?

 4        A.   No, not necessarily.  If one bows his head, that part of the

 5     cranium is also exposed.  If a man is standing, you can bend your head,

 6     so one can also shoot at the nape or at the top of the head if a man is

 7     in that position even standing.

 8        Q.   When you were testifying in the Belgrade case, the trial of the

 9     accused for the concrete crimes committed at Ovcara, you testified

10     together with Dr. Milovan Kubat.  He's a colleague of yours from Zagreb;

11     is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.  He was a colleague, a specialist for DNA.

13        Q.   Tell me, as I'm no expert on that, and when I passed my

14     examination in forensic medicine we had no DNA analysis, but I do

15     remember my genetics from the third grade of high school, we call it

16     "DNA," deoxyribonucleic acid.  Why are you saying "DNA"?

17        A.   We have two ways of marking the same thing, basically.  Actually,

18     a part of Europe and America call it DNA, and some call it DNK, which is

19     the same -- one and the same thing.

20        Q.   This deoxyribonucleic acid is what we're talking about; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   The third witness was professor Dr. Milos Tasic.  You know him as

23     well?

24        A.   [No interpretation].

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a problem with the

Page 11627

 1     microphone, and instead of listening to Mr. Strinovic, I'm hearing the

 2     English interpretation.  And you know how I abhor that language.  I

 3     became depressed straight away and quite nervous and upset.  So could

 4     that matter be put right, please?

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  We're

 6     going to check what's going on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it's all right now.  I can

 8     see -- I can hear the Serbian interpretation now.

 9        Q.   Anyway, the three of you, to all intents and purposes, tabled the

10     report together.  You went first, then Dr. Milovan Kubat and then

11     Dr. Milos Tasic; right?

12        A.   This is how it was.  First of all, it was Kubat and I who

13     provided identification with respect to identification at Ovcara, and

14     when we had done our job, Professor Otasevic went in to present his

15     opinion but we had already left, gone out, and we didn't hear his

16     findings.

17        Q.   So I assume you know what his findings were.

18        A.   While we were in the courtroom, we didn't take part, nor were we

19     aware of his findings.

20        Q.   And two other Serbian specialists, forensic experts, took part in

21     the post-mortem examinations, the autopsies conducted in Zagreb; isn't

22     that right?

23        A.   Yes, that is right.

24        Q.   One of them was Dr. Dobricanin; right?  I'm not sure that I

25     remember all their names, but do you remember who the doctors were?

Page 11628

 1        A.   Professor Otasevic from Nis, he was together with me as a monitor

 2     during the autopsy conducted in Zagreb.

 3        Q.   Otasevic, and there was another one, as far as I remember.

 4        A.   As far as I know, not in Zagreb, but at Ovcara during the

 5     exhumation process, there was somebody from Vukovar.  I don't remember

 6     the name.

 7        Q.   Dr. Milos Tasic claimed that one can exclude the fact that

 8     gunshot wounds used in rifles was used for the liquidation of these

 9     victims.  Do you agree with that?  Or, rather, shots.

10        A.   It's difficult for me to give a decisive answer.  I'd have to

11     look through all the autopsy reports and the causes of death and

12     descriptions, but I think that's the right answer.  I don't think there's

13     any dilemma.  Pellets from shotguns, I mean.

14        Q.   I looked at all your 200 autopsies, and I never saw the mention

15     of buckshot and pellets from buckshot.  I'm quite certain of that.  Now,

16     if the Prosecutor considers otherwise, he can say so, but there's no

17     mention of buckshot or pellets from buckshot.

18        A.   I think that's quite true.  I don't remember any pellets being

19     mentioned.

20        Q.   Which excludes the use of hunting rifles in this liquidation

21     process?

22        A.   Yes, it excludes the use of pellets, gunshot pellets.

23        Q.   According to Dr. Milos Tasic, 540 projectiles were found in the

24     various bodies, and about 1.500 cartridges were found next to that mass

25     grave.  Are you aware of those facts and findings?

Page 11629

 1        A.   I don't know the exact figures, but roughly those are the figures

 2     that I would say were mentioned.

 3        Q.   And all those cartridges and projectiles testify to the fact that

 4     Kalashnikov-type rifles were used, or pistol ammunitions from automatic

 5     pistols of the Skorpion type, and some other automatic pistols such as

 6     Hecklers or the M-56 type automatic rifles?  Are you aware of that?

 7        A.   Well, my answer would be the same as the previous one.  I don't

 8     know for sure and precisely, but as far as I know, yes, that would be

 9     correct.

10        Q.   But mostly, we're dealing with bullets fired from Kalashnikovs?

11        A.   Yes, in the vast majority they were Kalashnikov bullets.

12        Q.   All right.  You ascertained, and I assume that that is your most

13     reliable piece of information, that of a total of 200 persons liquidated

14     at Ovcara, that 6 were -- their death was caused by traumas and 1 by stab

15     wounds inflicted to the body and neck; right?

16        A.   Yes, that is right.  Those were our conclusions on the basis of

17     the information received about the cause of death from the international

18     experts.

19        Q.   So there's no doubt that all the rest were killed through gunshot

20     wounds, that is to say, through firearms?

21        A.   Yes, to the best of my knowledge, that is right.

22        Q.   From your report, I see that some of the bodies have more gunshot

23     wounds, others were killed with just one bullet, but they were all killed

24     from firearms.  Now, when it comes to these six individuals who died as a

25     result of trauma, you had certain methodology that you applied to

Page 11630

 1     ascertain those traumas, whether it was fracture to the skull, bone

 2     fractures, or anything similar; right?

 3        A.   Well, when trauma was the cause of death, then quite obviously it

 4     was as a result of some blunt object inflicting a blow on the part of the

 5     body or head, leading to death.

 6        Q.   And that blunt object can be a rifle-butt; right?

 7        A.   Yes, that is right, a blunt object; a rifle-butt or --

 8        Q.   A metal pipe, for instance?

 9        A.   Yes, a metal pipe or whatever.

10        Q.   We have testimony from some survivors saying that some victims

11     were killed in hangars through having been beaten up with blunt objects.

12     Brute force was applied with some blunt object, and these six people were

13     killed through blows inflicted by blunt objects; right?

14        A.   Yes, that was the cause of death, which we say trauma, trauma

15     resulted in cause of death.

16        Q.   You don't have to be wary.  I'm not asking you trick questions.

17     I think you're a very proper expert witness, which is quite different to

18     the ones we've heard previously.

19             Anyway, one particular victim that was found, for that victim it

20     was established that it had stab wounds on the body and neck.  As far as

21     I remember, and I studied the trial in Belgrade, the wound in Belgrade

22     was inflicted from the back.  It was a stab wound to the back of the

23     neck, and the metal object entered the skull, right, pierced the skull?

24     Am I right?

25        A.   Well, I'd have to look at the autopsy report to see the

Page 11631

 1     direction, the channel stab, channel took, but certainly it was a result

 2     of a stab caused by a knife or whatever, and the injuries were inflicted

 3     that way.

 4        Q.   But you established that because the skull had been damaged by

 5     the stab wound.  Had the person's neck been slit, it would be difficult

 6     for you to ascertain that; right?

 7        A.   Once again, I have to look at the autopsy report.  With that --

 8     the particular person you're referring to, there was soft tissue present,

 9     so you could see the stab wound to the soft tissue in the neck.  So the

10     person conducting the autopsy saw the piercing of the skin and the

11     channel the object took as it entered the neck.

12        Q.   Well, it's a lot of material.  I couldn't take it all with me,

13     but I do remember that it was a bayonet or a knife that pierced the soft

14     tissue through force.  It is difficult for somebody wielding a knife to

15     pierce the skull, unless he's very strong, but if it's a bayonet that was

16     used, then it's easier to pierce the skull; right?  Would you agree with

17     me there?

18        A.   Yes, certainly.  If the skull was damaged, then it had to be

19     through great force and impact.

20        Q.   And you found a number of stab wounds on the body, right,

21     several?  I don't know the exact number.

22        A.   Well, we didn't do that, but the person conducting the autopsy

23     found those injuries, stab wounds to the neck and torso, but there's no

24     reason to doubt it.

25        Q.   Well, I assume that all the autopsies were done with the

Page 11632

 1     intention of ascertaining the cause of death and that there was no

 2     manipulation there.

 3        A.   Yes, that's absolutely correct.  We were there to monitor the

 4     whole process, and our colleagues from Serbia did the same, so there's no

 5     reason to doubt any of that.

 6        Q.   So for these 200 victims, we agree that not a single one of them

 7     died through having their throat slit, without the use of firearms,

 8     without any stabbings and so on?

 9        A.   What we can say is that the cause of death was ascertained.  They

10     were stab wounds, gunshot wounds, et cetera.  Now, whether their throats

11     were slit, that's difficult to establish because the tissue from the neck

12     area was not described, because they disappeared.  So there's no cause of

13     death -- so a throat slitting was not listed as a cause of death.

14        Q.   I'm asking you that, because we had a false witness here who

15     claimed that several prisoners had their throat slit and died that way,

16     without the use of firearms, in the liquidation process.  That's why I

17     found it important to clear that up in talking to you.

18             Now, we have a great disproportion here in the number of

19     cartridges found and bullets found.  There are three times as many

20     cartridges that were found than bullets, because many of the bullets

21     didn't hit their target, they didn't hit the victim.  So that is one

22     possible explanation?

23        A.   I'm waiting.  I'm pausing slightly for the interpretation.  If

24     many more cartridges were found compared to bullets or gunshot wounds,

25     then of course a part of those projectiles used went far off the mark,

Page 11633

 1     didn't hit their target.  Now, the question is how many entrance/exit

 2     wounds were established.  Perhaps the soft tissue was hit, which

 3     disintegrated later on, and so no traces were found during the autopsy

 4     and they weren't recorded.  So it's difficult for me to give you an exact

 5     answer, but to all intents and purposes, the large number of cartridges

 6     found show perhaps that the bullets had either gone astray or that they

 7     had hit soft tissues which had disintegrated.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused repeat his question, please.

 9     It was much too fast.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, the interpreters didn't catch your

11     question because you're overlapping.  Could you please repeat your

12     question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I was suggesting to the

14     witness is the following:  I'm saying that it might be possible that

15     certain projectiles cause entrance/exit wounds, which means they went

16     through the body and continued along their trajectory and that those

17     bullets were never found, so they could have been bullets that did not

18     touch any of the bones, go through any of the bones.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that is possible, and in fact

20     many bullets, whether they passed through soft tissues or some bones,

21     might have exited the body and then, therefore, were never found.  So

22     that is something that happens, too, particularly in the case of

23     Kalashnikovs.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We had the example of one woman -- there were two women who were

Page 11634

 1     killed, but with one of these victims, female victims, doctors,

 2     specialists ascertained that it wasn't possible that she had been

 3     pregnant because of her age.  Now, as to the other woman, the other

 4     person, you yourself said that it wasn't possible to ascertain whether

 5     the person was pregnant or not because of putrifaction and decay.

 6             Now, if it was advanced pregnancy, for example, the fetus in its

 7     eighth month, for such an advanced pregnancy, would the same answer hold

 8     true, that it's not possible to establish whether someone is pregnant or

 9     not because of decay and putrifaction?

10        A.   The description during the autopsy is quite clear and indicates

11     that there were no visible signs of pregnancy.  And I have to repeat once

12     again, when we're dealing with pregnancy, even advanced pregnancy in the

13     eighth or ninth months, the first thing that disappears in the process of

14     decay is the fetus because, as I said, the fetus is made up 90 per cent

15     of water, and so it is the fetus that disintegrates and dissolves and you

16     cannot find it later on.  So it is possible that somebody might have been

17     in an advanced state of pregnancy and that this cannot be ascertained.

18     And six years after death, it's quite possible that you can't find any

19     traces which would have suggested that the person was pregnant, the woman

20     was pregnant.

21        Q.   Now, this might be morbid, and since we're in open session, I'd

22     like to ask you something, but this is important for me because of

23     previous testimony by someone else.  Is it possible, and you presented

24     data about that, that on the body of that particular woman, a lot of

25     entrance wounds were found all over her body and on her head?  Is it

Page 11635

 1     possible that all those bullets, that the woman was reclining or

 2     semi-reclining and that all the bullets were shot -- well, if the woman

 3     was lying -- well, that all the bullets were shot into her genital area

 4     and that then they spread through the body and reached the head as well?

 5     Is that possible?

 6        A.   In view of the description of the entrance/exit wound, quite

 7     obviously it was a burst of gunfire that went from top to bottom or

 8     bottom to top, from head down the body or the other way around, but there

 9     are no indices to show that everything was concentrated on the pelvic

10     area, because she had been pierced all over her body; her head, her body

11     and her pelvis.

12        Q.   Now, we know the woman's name.  I don't think I'll bring that up

13     in open session.  But was she in the upright position when this burst of

14     gunfire was shot at her and into her?

15        A.   The wounds and injuries that are incurred from the head down the

16     body to the extremities, as a rule, are inflicted on somebody in the

17     upright position when there's a burst of gunfire.

18        Q.   Mr. Strinovic, I have one more question for you.  The Serb that

19     was killed in Vocin, Stojan Nenadovic was mentioned, and in my opinion,

20     from quite clear morbid propaganda reasons, the Prosecutor chose to

21     display that photograph.  And then you said the man was killed because

22     his son was in the Croatian Army.  Where did you get that information

23     from?

24        A.   We received that information when we arrived in Slatina and

25     started the autopsy and came to that particular body.  Then we were given

Page 11636

 1     the information from the authorities who found the body in Slatina and --

 2     well, we came across the body, and the officials there told us that he

 3     was a Serb whose son was in the Croatian Army and that that was the

 4     reason, so that's where we got the information from.

 5        Q.   Do you know that Croatian courts tried some of the perpetrators

 6     of the crimes in Vocin on the 13th of December?  Do you know that there

 7     was a trial either in Bjelovar or Podravska Slatina, I think that was the

 8     relevant court or was it Podravska Slatina?  I'm not quite sure now, I

 9     can't remember, but do you know that they were taken to court and tried?

10        A.   As far as I know, proceedings were initiated against certain

11     perpetrators, certain individuals, and the investigating judge asked for

12     an expert opinion which was then to serve for that trial linked to the

13     victims of Vocin.  Now, I don't know anything more than that, whether

14     there was a judgement, whether they were sentenced or not.  I don't know

15     how the trial ended, but I do know that proceedings were initiated.

16        Q.   Do you know that all the accused in that trial were Vocin locals,

17     local people from Vocin?

18        A.   As I've already said, I don't know all the details of the case,

19     nor do I know who the perpetrators were, the accused were, so I don't

20     know who was taken to trial.

21        Q.   Then I assume that you don't know whether the trial incorporated

22     or -- that the trial incorporated persons accused for the killing of the

23     Serb Stojan Nenadovic.

24        A.   My answer would be the same as my previous answer.  I really

25     don't know.

Page 11637

 1        Q.   But since you speculated on the basis of knowledge that you

 2     received -- information that you received from the people who brought in

 3     the corpse and who had heard something about the case, is my speculation

 4     possible, too, that this Serb didn't want to flee from Vocin when the

 5     rest of the Serbs withdrew and fled, with the onslaught of the Croatian

 6     Army and the police, and he remained because he considered because of the

 7     fact that his son was in the Croatian Army would mean that his life would

 8     be saved; however, the first Croatian forces that entered, they beat him

 9     up as a Serb, without listening to him saying that his son was a member

10     of the Croatian Army?  Is that a possibility?

11        A.   I've already said I have no specific or objective information,

12     except what I heard when we arrived in Vocin.  Of course, all options are

13     open.

14        Q.   I'm glad that you said very fairly that you have no reliable

15     data.  I've just now constructed this speculation of mine, and I'm sure

16     that you are quite clear on that, and that I did in response to this

17     unfair proceeding on the part of the Prosecutor.

18             Thank you, Mr. Strinovic.  I think that you were a very fair

19     witness and expert witness, but you might be called again once I have

20     submitted this 50 pages of transcript that have not been translated.

21             I am going to apply for it, Mrs. Lattanzi.  You can, of course,

22     not grant my application, but I will do so.

23             You will probably not be called again, Mr. Strinovic, but I'm

24     going to do so in order to teach the Prosecutor a lecture.

25             Thank you, Mr. Strinovic.

Page 11638

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A follow-up question.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you answered one of

 4     Mr. Seselj's questions, you said you testified at the Ovcara trial in

 5     Belgrade, and you said that when I put the question to you right at the

 6     beginning of your testimony.  I was wondering, when you testified in

 7     Belgrade, since you, as a forensic pathologist, you hadn't taken part in

 8     the examinations, forensic examinations, you were called to testify in

 9     what capacity; because you're a well-known expert?  Could you tell us,

10     please?

11        A.   Your Honours, we were given a query and a summons from the court

12     in Belgrade to come to the hearing and to prepare material related to the

13     identification of the post-mortal remains, exclusively that

14     identification, because I and Dr. Kubat worked on that identification.  I

15     did the classical part and he the DNA one.  They were particularly

16     interested to hear how we had established those names that we had

17     identified, and how reliable our method was, and whether we were able to

18     guarantee that identification was reliable.  So it was exclusively for

19     the purpose of the -- of our explaining how we had established that --

20     how we had identified the 192 bodies that we had identified.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I suppose that you were put

22     questions by the judges, just as we put questions to you.

23        A.   Yes, but also solely in respect of the identification, not in

24     connection with the cause of death or the history of the Ovcara gravesite

25     from beginning to end.  It was all solely pertaining to the

Page 11639

 1     identification method, the ante-mortem data strictly connected to

 2     identification.  That was in Belgrade.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 4             Doctor, I just have one question regarding the information that

 5     you gave us on the size of the mass grave, because it struck me -- but I

 6     have no experience with this, but it struck me a bit odd that you would

 7     have room for 200 bodies in a single mass grave measuring 7 by 9 metres.

 8     How deep was it, or were there several mass graves at Ovcara?

 9        A.   No, it was just one mass grave.  All the bodies were in one

10     place, in one heap.  Now, what the height or the depth of the grave was,

11     it is hard for me to say offhand, but it must have been at least five or

12     six metres.  It was an impressive depth of that mass grave, where there

13     was a relatively small area but the depth was enough to accommodate 200

14     bodies, and they were piled up in a pyramidal heap.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see, thanks.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination?

17             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, just a couple of questions.

18             Before that, I was just informed that we have the transcript --

19     the translation of the transcript that are missing ready by tomorrow

20     afternoon.  So if we want to keep the witness so he doesn't need to come

21     back, if Mr. Seselj wants to continue his cross-examination after reading

22     this transcript.

23             And before that, just a couple of questions.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do not believe that it is

25     that relevant a point.

Page 11640

 1             Mr. Seselj, do you insist on reading that transcript, to then

 2     possibly ask further questions to the witness, or is that not necessary?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What matters to me is that I get

 4     that portion of the transcript, because I'm entitled to it.  Perhaps I am

 5     not going to use it in cross-examining Mr. Strinovic.  Perhaps I'm going

 6     to use it at some other juncture in this place, in this trial.  But if

 7     Mr. Ferrara guarantees that I'm going to get it tomorrow afternoon,

 8     Mr. Strinovic can have a happy journey back home.  I'm not going to

 9     insist on cross-examining him.

10             But today, when we finish, I'm going to raise an administrative

11     matter, so will you please bear that in mind?  It is very important for

12     me.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

14             Yes, Mr. Ferrara, you will disclose the transcript to Mr. Ferrara

15     [as interpreted].

16             MR. FERRARA:  Just a couple of questions.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Ferrara:

18        Q.   Dr. Strinovic, your report, we found that until now there are

19     four cases, in four cases the cause of death of the people killed at

20     Ovcara are unknown.  What does it mean?

21        A.   When it is established that the cause of death is unknown,

22     unascertained, that means that either there have been no visible wounds

23     or that it was the soft tissue that had been wounded.  It could have been

24     an exit-and-entry wound or slaughter or a gunshot wound, but because the

25     soft tissue decays and dissolves with time, it is not possible to

Page 11641

 1     establish that.  Then there could have been extensive damage to the skull

 2     or some other bones, but that damage cannot be reproduced.  It cannot be

 3     associated with a gunshot wound, with a blow or something similar, so

 4     that in some cases the post-mortem examiner is not sure, having conducted

 5     all the necessary examinations, taking all the necessary steps, examining

 6     all the organs and tissues.  The examiner is in a dilemma, cannot

 7     establish the actual cause, the real cause of death, in which case the

 8     indication is the cause of death, unknown.  I suppose that's what

 9     happened in this case as well.

10        Q.   In the case of killing as consequences of stabbing, slaughtering,

11     strangulation, is it always possible to prove the causes of death?

12        A.   No, it is not.  As I've just said, in such cases when we have

13     strangulation, stabbing wounds and similar, and the damage was inflicted

14     on soft tissue, and the soft tissue has decayed, completely dissolved

15     because the bodies were in this surface layer or were changed -- or other

16     changes took place, there is no indication of what wound really was

17     inflicted on the soft tissue to indicate the cause of death, in which

18     case the cause of death is unascertainable.

19             MR. FERRARA:  I don't have further questions.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Professor Strinovic, in such a

21     case, in the case of a wound being inflicted to the soft tissues and the

22     soft tissues being then decomposed, is it possible that these people died

23     as a result of a haemorrhage?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.  When people have bled

25     to death and then we have post-mortal damage to tissue, that is precisely

Page 11642

 1     when it is impossible to establish the cause of death.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.

 4             Witness, we have just completed your testimony.  On my behalf and

 5     on behalf of my colleagues, thank you very much for having come for the

 6     fourth time, I believe, to The Hague.  Thank you very much for having

 7     assisted the Bench with your technical knowledge.

 8             I wish you every success in your occupation, and I wish you a

 9     safe trip home.  And I'm going to ask the usher to escort you out of the

10     courtroom.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you said that you

13     wanted to raise another matter.  But before I give you the floor, let me

14     turn to Ms. Dahl.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Tomorrow, we have a witness

17     whose name I'm not going to give because it's a protected witness.  This

18     witness will be here at a quarter past 2.00.  Two hours have been given

19     to the Prosecution to examine this witness, and two hours for Mr. Seselj

20     to cross-examine him.  That's right?

21             Okay, Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11643











11 Page 11643 redacted.















Page 11644

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give you the floor,

 7     Ms. Dahl, but before I do, let me say the following:

 8             Mr. Seselj, you've developed your point, and you are asking the

 9     Chamber to take measures.  The Trial Chamber may act proprio motu, but

10     you also can file a motion.  Is what you've just said tantamount to an

11     oral motion?  Should we see that as an oral motion from you?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is an official oral

13     application on my part.  It is formulated succinctly, and -- but it is

14     very precise.  I did so in order to save time.  I can give it in writing

15     in a number of pages, but, yes, you can read this as my official oral

16     motion.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, so am I to understand that you are

18     asking the Chamber to initiate contempt proceedings against this witness

19     for having done what exactly; falsely testified for having driven his car

20     into a field, which is not possible, or, I mean, what's the substance of

21     this?

22             MS. DAHL:  Your Honour, my request is that we go into private

23     session and redact this information, because it's susceptible to being

24     interpreted as witness intimidation, and it also relates to Rule 77.  The

25     redaction would begin at today's transcript page 90, line 17.

Page 11645

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely oppose that, because

 2     I think that that would be an outrage.  I strictly -- took strict care

 3     that no one can even guess the identity of this witness, no one on earth,

 4     so if you are going to redact this and move into private session, please

 5     consider this motion not having been made, because I've had enough of

 6     private sessions, really.  Then I could be strangulated in the dark here

 7     or I could be strangulated in public.  I opt for the second possibility.

 8     I'm not threatening anyone here, but if the moment is ripe for

 9     instituting proceedings for contempt of court against one witness, that

10     is not intimidation of other witnesses.  One has been caught shamefacedly

11     lying.  What happens if we catch a witness lying and I want proceedings

12     to be instituted against him?  How can that amount to intimidation of

13     other witnesses?  This is only a message to other witnesses to speak the

14     truth and not falsely testify.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber has been

16     requested to redact part of the transcript, and I have to consult my

17     colleagues before we make our determination.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, after considering

20     the matter -- but before saying anything else, let's go into private

21     session.

22             Mr. Registrar, private session, please.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 11646











11 Pages 11646-11651 redacted. Private session.















Page 11652

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  We shall resume tomorrow at a

10     quarter past 2.00.  We are going to be hearing a witness who has been

11     granted protective measures.

12             I wish you a pleasant evening, and we meet again tomorrow at a

13     quarter past 2.00.  The hearing stands adjourned.

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of

16                           November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.