Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11653

 1                           Wednesday, 12 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, everyone in and

 9     around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Vojislav Seselj.

12             Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

14             Today is Wednesday, the 12th of November, 2008.  I would like to

15     greet the representatives of the Prosecution and their associate,

16     Mr. Seselj, and all the people assisting us in the courtroom.

17             We are going to be hearing the next witness and moving into

18     closed session.  I'm checking the logo on the screen.

19             Registrar, please.

20                           [Closed session]

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11 Pages 11654-11672 redacted. Closed session.















Page 11673

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 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. MARCUSSEN:

12        Q.   1093, what was the distribution of managerial positions like in

13     Zvornik municipality at the time we are talking about?  Are you able to

14     comment on that?

15        A.   Well, 90 per cent of the directors in Zvornik municipality were

16     Serbs.

17        Q.   And when you say "directors," you mean directors of what?

18        A.   I mean company managers, company directors.

19        Q.   Now, you mentioned earlier that already by the time that you got

20     the position that you got, I think I can paraphrase it as tension was

21     mounting in Zvornik.  Did there come a time when the Serb population set

22     up parallel authorities?

23        A.   Yes, that did happen.  Already toward the end of 1991, there

24     started a continued obstruction of the functioning of legal municipal

25     structures.  They separated the Secretariat for the Interior and

Page 11674

 1     relocated it to Karakaj.  The directors in Zvornik regularly met for

 2     consultations in Mali Zvornik.  They denied any form -- they refused any

 3     form of joint functioning or living side by side.

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with a person by the name of Branko Grujic?

 5        A.   Yes, I am familiar with that name.

 6        Q.   Do you recall him ever making a statement which reflected his

 7     view of the Muslim population of the area?

 8        A.   Well, at a session of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik, he said

 9     loud and clear that, "We Serbs will not live with you, inter alia because

10     you multiply like rabbits and we won't have -- we will not support your

11     children."  At that time, actually, the daycare centres for children were

12     municipal structures, and they were financed out of joint resources, a

13     joint budget.

14        Q.   If you remember, when was this statement made?

15        A.   It was made at one of the last joint sessions of the Municipal

16     Assembly, perhaps in January 1992.  I do not know the exact date.

17        Q.   Did the Serbs -- the Serb part of the population, did they

18     establish their own defence or Territorial Defence unit ?

19        A.   Yes, they did.  Sometime in early February 1992, a unit was set

20     up and stationed in Karakaj, a unit of the Territorial Defence, which had

21     its commander who was -- I'm trying to recall his name.  He was a worker

22     at the Alumina company.  He was a major, and his surname was Jovanovic.

23     That unit was armed.  It was armed by the Bijeljina Garrison.  We would

24     have occasional negotiations with the commander of the Bijeljina

25     Garrison, and to my surprise this Major Jovanovic would always be there

Page 11675

 1     as well, who was the commander of that unit about which the official

 2     municipal authorities knew nothing.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And if we may move into private session for just

 4     a brief minute.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

 6                           [Private session]

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:

19        Q.   Prior to this establishment of armed units at Karakaj in 1991,

20     were there any steps taken which you realised were also related to a

21     Serb; defence or armed units being set up?

22        A.   Well, already at the end of 1990 and in 1991, constant

23     obstruction started of the normal functioning of the Zvornik Municipal

24     Assembly.  Sometimes the reasons were banal and sometimes they were very

25     serious.  One of the reasons would be, for instance, that the Hunting

Page 11676

 1     Association of Zvornik municipality asked to be able to hunt in the

 2     territory of Hrasnica as well, and this area was inhabited mainly by

 3     Serbs.  However, the municipal delegates to the Municipal Assembly of

 4     Zvornik from the ranks of the SDS simply refused such a request and did

 5     not want to participate in the work of the Municipal Assembly at all if

 6     that was placed on the agenda.

 7             When the war started, we realised why things had been like that,

 8     because throughout the Rastosnica [Realtime transcript read in error

 9     "Rastocnica"] region area, there were constructed very strong

10     fortification structures, trenches, shelters, fox holes, with concrete

11     works done to reinforce them, and weapons were also deployed there which

12     during the war actually were used to open fire at the Muslim parts of the

13     municipal territory.

14             So already in 1990 and 1991, they already knew that there would

15     be a war, and quite obviously they prepared for it in a very organised

16     way.

17             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And for the record, at page 23, line 22, and

18     page 24, line 3, the spelling of the location should be

19     R-a-s-t-o-s-w-i -- sorry, s-n-i-c-a.

20        Q.   1093, are you familiar with an officer with the name of Tesic?

21        A.   No, I didn't know anybody by the name of Tesic.  Perhaps you mean

22     "Tacic."

23        Q.   Yes, it's my pronunciation.  I am sorry.

24        A.   Yes, Colonel Tacic.  Yes, I did know him, and, what's more, we

25     were friends, we socialised.  He liked to have a drink of wine and to try

Page 11677

 1     Bosnian specialties, so we would very often sit down together.

 2        Q.   Did he come to the Zvornik area at some point?

 3        A.   He was the commander of the armoured unit which was, until the

 4     war in Croatia, stationed in Jastrebarsko.  And, of course, when the

 5     conflicts broke out, he pulled out his entire unit and stationed it in

 6     Dubrava under the command of General Jankovic.  And immediately upon

 7     arrival in Dubrava, he would come to visit the Zvornik headquarters, with

 8     the request that he be given a facility to use, some premises which he

 9     could use which belonged to the Zvornik municipality that was in Kuslat

10     and where a thousand men could be put up very comfortably.  They had

11     kitchens and bathrooms and so on.

12        Q.   When did he arrive with his units to Dubrava?

13        A.   He arrived in the second half of 1991.

14        Q.   Did he at some point deploy his units in other places in Zvornik

15     municipality?

16        A.   Well, yes, he did.  At the beginning of 1992, saying that Tudjman

17     had -- under the pretext that Tudjman had planes, he deployed his tanks

18     along the Zvornik area, and Zvornik had three or four bridges.  One was

19     an industrial bridge and two for the public, so actually there were four

20     bridges in all.  And all those bridges were secured with anti-aircraft

21     guns and tanks.  And he also deployed, already in February, his tanks in

22     Mali Zvornik, with their barrels facing Divic.  And in all those Serbian

23     villages from Zvornik to Bijeljina, he stationed this very, very heavy

24     weaponry, and also the territory of the Sekovic municipality, which

25     borders on Zvornik, which is well known as the white land, he deployed

Page 11678

 1     those units there and moved his headquarters, his command, from Dubrava

 2     to Sekovici, saying that the reason was that it had come -- that an order

 3     had come in from the higher command.

 4        Q.   Do you remember the villages -- the names of some of the villages

 5     in Zvornik municipality where he stationed his weapons?

 6        A.   That was Karakaj, Celopek, Trsic.

 7        Q.   What was the name of his deputy?

 8        A.   I'm not quite sure what his name was, but I know that he was a

 9     Muslim and that he was a major by rank, and I noticed that he would

10     always come with Tacic.  They were always together.  However, in February

11     I noticed that the major was no longer with Tacic.  And I asked him what

12     had happened to the gentleman, and he said he went to take up another

13     duty in Belgrade.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I would ask that we go briefly into private

15     session again, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

17                           [Private session]

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11 Page 11679 redacted. Private session.















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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:

Page 11681

 1        Q.   1093, you just explained that Zvornik had a mixed population of

 2     Serbs and Muslims or Bosniaks.  Did there come a time when the Serb

 3     population started to leave Zvornik?

 4        A.   Well, yes.  Already at the beginning -- or, rather, during 1991,

 5     anybody who had anywhere to go in Serbia would leave, and this became

 6     more prominent in 1992.  And just prior to the conflict breaking out,

 7     Zvornik was left to the Muslims.  It was just the Muslims who remained.

 8     A couple of days before the attack on Zvornik, the only people there were

 9     Muslims.

10        Q.   Have you any knowledge of why the Serbs left?

11        A.   Well, just like in other parts of Bosnia, a plan of attack

12     existed and there was a plan for ethnic cleansing, and it was easier to

13     ethnically cleanse if you knew there were no Serbs around.

14        Q.   Did the Muslim population in Zvornik create a crisis staff at

15     some point in time?  And if so, when?

16        A.   Well, I don't think I would call it a crisis staff.  Quite

17     simply, when it became obvious that nothing good could be expected, some

18     of the prominent citizens of Zvornik came to the municipality building,

19     Municipal Assembly building, to have a discussion to see what could be

20     done.  And the Municipal Assembly building was where the SUP building was

21     as well, and it was sheltered in a way from the weapons trained on

22     Veliki Zvornik.  So we went across to the SUP building, and that was just

23     two days prior to the attack on Zvornik.

24        Q.   And I understand, from the way you answer the question, that you

25     were one of the people who participated in that group.

Page 11682

 1        A.   Yes, you're quite right.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One point of clarification.

 3             You told us that the Serbs left Zvornik.  You said that there was

 4     a plan.  Are you quite certain that the Serbs who left Zvornik did not

 5     leave Zvornik because they were forced to do so by Muslims?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they left Zvornik because

 7     they had received instructions that that's what they should do, leave

 8     Zvornik so that Zvornik could be freed of the Muslims.  They were not

 9     jeopardised in any way by the Muslims.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that they had received

11     instructions, but from whom?  Who gave them these instructions?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was an unbelievable

13     situation.  Zvornik was multiethnic.  There were many mixed marriages,

14     friends between different ethnicities.  There were excellent examples of

15     inter-ethnic tolerance and socialising.  However, there was not one Serb

16     whoever let out where the directions -- directives and instructions came

17     from.  You wouldn't hear that from a single Serb, so I don't really know

18     who gave them those directives or instructions, from what side they had

19     come.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:

21        Q.   1093, are you familiar with the arrests of some Serbs around this

22     point in time in Zvornik?

23        A.   Well, yes.  On the 7th of April -- yes, the 7th of April, as I

24     say, the night prior to the attack on Zvornik, a group of citizens

25     brought four uniformed soldiers who set off to Karakaj.  However, when

Page 11683

 1     they crossed the bridge, they took the wrong turn, and instead of going

 2     right, they went left and came to a part of Zvornik which is mostly

 3     inhabited by Muslims.  And they were already wary of something happening.

 4     Well, wary, if I can put it that way, they were cautious, and so these

 5     four soldiers who were wearing uniforms, camouflaged uniforms, and who

 6     had ID cards saying that they belonged to some Arkan units, they all had

 7     pistols, the Colt type pistols, the cowboy -- American cowboy Colts, and

 8     only generals had that type of a pistol in the JNA.  Anyway, all of them

 9     had a couple of sets of handcuffs, and they had some wires, thin steel

10     wires.  And as they explained, these wires -- this wire was intended for

11     silent liquidation of the enemy, and so on and so forth.  And they went

12     on to explain to us that certain media in Belgrade kept referring to --

13     kept calling for assistance to the Serb brothers, Serb brethren, in

14     Bosnia, and that Serb corpses were flowing down the Drina River, and that

15     the Serbs had to help -- fellow Serbs had to help their -- Serbs had to

16     help their fellow Serbs.

17        Q.   Were there bodies floating in the river at this point in time?

18        A.   No, not at that time.  But several weeks later, yes, that was the

19     case.  Unfortunately, they weren't Serb corpses; they were Muslim

20     corpses.

21        Q.   Did -- again, I can understand from your answer that you,

22     yourself, spoke to these four gentlemen.  Would you just confirm that

23     that's right?

24        A.   Well, yes, I did talk to them.  I asked them who they were, where

25     they were from, things like that.  And I asked the people present not to

Page 11684

 1     be brutal.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have a conversation

 3     with them or did you question them?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we talked.  They weren't

 5     tied, they weren't mistreated, they weren't beaten.  We handed them some

 6     cigarettes, and then we put all four of them up into a separate room.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it customary to be nice with

 8     people you've just arrested and whom you find with all sorts of weapons

 9     on them?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we were naive and

11     inexperienced.  Certainly, we thought that -- we thought at the time that

12     perhaps the situation would calm down and that there wouldn't be a war.

13     And to this day, I could never kill anyone, regardless of everything that

14     I have lived through myself.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the military police

16     of the TO, what about the civilian police?  Weren't there any police

17     around?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was disarray already at that

19     time.  Anybody who could escape escaped, beginning with the commander,

20     the other lower commanders, Secretaries of the Interior, his

21     subordinates, right down to the rank and file.  There were no -- there

22     was no more official structure that was in place.  Anybody who could

23     escape did.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:

25        Q.   To your knowledge, were the four men released?

Page 11685

 1        A.   Yes, they were.  They were released after our negotiations and

 2     talks in Mali Zvornik which took place the following day, when we decided

 3     to leave the premises of the municipal SUP building.  And one Muslim,

 4     I think his name was Fadil Mujic, took them to the hydroelectric power

 5     plant, and that's where they were handed over.  And then they left, they

 6     went where they thought was best for them to go, alive and well.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, before we move to the next topic,

 8     maybe this is a convenient time for the break.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a convenient time for

10     the break.  We'll have a 20-minute break.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

14     We are in open session.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:

16        Q.   1093, I'd like now to turn to the 8th of April, 1994 -- 1992.

17     Where were you that day?

18        A.   I was in the building of the Secretariat of the Interior in

19     Zvornik.

20        Q.   And could you tell us what happened during the morning that day?

21        A.   In the morning, fire was opened from some Zvornik settlements

22     inhabited mainly by Serbs, from the area of Karakaj, that is.  That is a

23     village which borders on the Zvornik area.  I proposed to the president

24     of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik --

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'll just stop you for one second.  We need to go

Page 11686

 1     into closed session again, Your Honours.  Private session will do.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please.

 3                           [Private session]

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I'd like if we could show Exhibit P358.  Yes,

 7     yes, and this can broadcast.  There's no problem with that.  This should

 8     be a map.

 9             If we could zoom in on the lower -- lower right side so that we

10     have -- maybe out a little bit more.  Sorry, the area is right.  We need

11     to zoom out a bit more so we can see a bit more of the area.

12             Okay, this is fine, we can do it with this.

13        Q.   Now, could you indicate on this map, and we need the help of the

14     usher to do this, where the artillery fire was coming from?  Now, you

15     mentioned --

16        A.   Yes, yes, I can show you that.

17        Q.   I think we cannot see Celopek on this map, as it is now, but if

18     you maybe indicate the other areas.

19        A.   It's over here, this belt along the Drina River [indicates], and

20     above Mali Zvornik too.

21        Q.   Could I ask you to put -- add a letter "A" at the first area you

22     indicated, so the belt?

23        A.   [Marks].

24        Q.   And the letter "B" for Mali Zvornik.

25        A.   [Marks].

Page 11697

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the area A, could you describe that area for us?

 2     Who were living in that area?

 3        A.   Living in that area were a mixed population of Muslims and Serbs,

 4     but mostly they were Muslims.  It was the so-called new settlement or

 5     Novo Naselje, inhabited by Muslims who had moved out of Mali Zvornik when

 6     the hydroelectric power plant was built and they were displaced and all

 7     the Muslims who lived in Mali Zvornik were moved to this area here.

 8        Q.   And were you able to see the fire coming from these areas, or how

 9     do you know that fire came from these areas?

10        A.   Well, yes, you could see it clearly.  It was nighttime, and every

11     shot is attended by a flash.  And most of the shells were coming from the

12     territory of Mali Zvornik and Karakaj.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And I think we have several other maps showing

14     where Karakaj and Celopek are, so I'm not going to create an exhibit for

15     that purpose.

16        Q.   But just, am I right, it would be north of what we're seeing now,

17     it's up above the area of Zvornik that we are seeing on the present map?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   What weapons were used for the shelling?

20        A.   Mostly they used mortars, mortars of large calibres, tanks as

21     well, and anti-aircraft guns.

22        Q.   From the use of the weapons that evening, are you able to

23     determine who would have been carrying out this fire, what units?

24        A.   Well, those kinds of weapons with that calibre -- well, the TO

25     didn't have that kind of weapon.  They were just units, regular units of

Page 11698

 1     the Yugoslav People's Army.  It was only the Yugoslav People's Army that

 2     had tanks, for example, cannons, things like that.

 3        Q.   And would you know who -- what units of that nature were

 4     stationed at Celopek, who was the commander of those units?

 5        A.   Those were Colonel Tacic's units, and during that time there was

 6     the proclamation on mobilisation signed by Colonel Tacic.  Artillery

 7     units of the JNA were commanded by Colonel Tacic.

 8        Q.   And what areas in Zvornik were targeted?

 9        A.   Mostly the parts along the outskirts of Zvornik which were

10     inhabited by the Muslims.

11        Q.   And maybe for the sake of completeness, could you mark where you

12     were when you saw this thing on this -- during this evening?

13        A.   It was a terrible night.  We had no peace and had to move around

14     all the time along the stretch from Kula Grad to Divic and Mladjevac

15     hill. [Marks].

16        Q.   Could I ask you to put the letter "C" next to the line you just

17     put, "C" like "Charlie"?

18        A.   [Marks].

19        Q.   The following day, were you able to observe events in Zvornik

20     town?

21        A.   I took with me one of the official binoculars, and so I could see

22     the events that followed fairly clearly.

23        Q.   On this map, could you indicate the general area where you were

24     the next day?  Maybe like you did last time, make a point or a line and

25     mark it with a "D" like "Delta."

Page 11699

 1        A.   [Marks].

 2        Q.   So if I can put on record, the witness drew a line with a "C" and

 3     has now made a circle around the line that he made and marked that with a

 4     "D", which indicated the general area where the witness were the next

 5     day.  So it's essentially the same area that you were in during the night

 6     and the following day; would that be correct?

 7        A.   That's right, yes.

 8        Q.   What did you -- what was going on and what were you able to

 9     observe happening in Zvornik?

10        A.   Well, I saw that from the direction of Mali Zvornik, across the

11     bridge infantry groups were being infiltrated into the area, which, while

12     moving around, as you'd say in military parlance, as if they were in

13     combat, combat formation.  And then they became lost amongst the houses

14     and so on.  And I saw the same thing happening from the Karakaj

15     direction.  They would be in groups of twos or threes.

16        Q.   And from Karakaj and the bridge, in what direction were they

17     moving?

18        A.   Well, they were moving into Karakaj, and it's this area here, the

19     entrance into Zvornik, over the bridge, and combed the whole territory,

20     the whole of the town of Zvornik.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And for the record, the witness have made two

22     arrows, one pointing from north, southward, and another arrow pointing

23     across the Drina River in a an east-westerly direction, and then sweeping

24     down south through Zvornik.

25        Q.   Were there --

Page 11700

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I think that the

 2     Prosecutor ought to show us the whole map so that we can see whether

 3     there are any projections there, because maps without projections mean

 4     nothing.  There's no scale to this map, so anybody with any knowledge of

 5     topography would know that you need the scale.  If the Prosecutor shows

 6     us the entire map, then we might be able to see something like that.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it possible to see the

 8     entire map?

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  But before we move away from this image, we have

10     to have it as an exhibit or we will lose the markings on the exhibit.  So

11     at this point -- but if I could put on record, Your Honours, the original

12     65 ter number that I referred to have the full map and have the scale on

13     it, so I don't think there's any reason for us to spend time in court on

14     this.  This can be checked by anyone.

15             What I can assist Your Honours with is just to indicate that --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, we never needed a scale

17     before, but now we do.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Or we could give a number and

19     then see the entire map.

20             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, Your Honour.  I could also assist by maybe

21     indicating that each of the squares on the map correspond to one

22     kilometre.  You can see various quarters of them, and they are one

23     kilometre on each direction.  And if the accused would like to make any

24     submissions -- cross-examine the witness on anything in relation to

25     distances or something like that, he can do that, but let's get an

Page 11701

 1     exhibit number for this one, anyway.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what you say, but

 3     Mr. Seselj may not be of the same view.

 4             Witness, do you agree that each square is one kilometre?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that's right.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's have a

 7     number, Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecutor has

 9     shown us -- has a map, the whole map, so would he provide me with that

10     entire map?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number first.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be given Exhibit number P627.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  To expedite matters, I propose to give my map to

15     the accused so he can look at it.  I don't quite understand what the

16     issue is, but if he would like to have a copy.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't say there was

18     anything questionable.  I don't know in advance, but I'd just like to

19     have a look, that's all.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:

22        Q.   1093, were there any civilians left in Zvornik town that you were

23     able to observe?

24        A.   Well, about two hours after the infantry attacks began, I saw

25     columns of women and children, groups of women and children crossing over

Page 11702

 1     the bridge between Veliki and Mali Zvornik, which means that they

 2     separated the men from the women and -- or, rather, the women and

 3     children, and the men were liquidated.  If there were smaller groups,

 4     they liquidated them on the spot, and they would escort the larger groups

 5     to the collection centre at Karakaj.

 6        Q.   How do you know that men were executed?

 7        A.   I saw the liquidation of a group which -- whose building was

 8     located at the entrance to Zvornik, on this side, the side I was on, and

 9     that might have been, well, about a kilometre if you follow the road, but

10     shorter as the crow flies.  I knew that building and those people,

11     myself, and somebody's sister lived in the building, and the neighbour

12     was (redacted), and he was the largest man in Zvornik.  He had two sons

13     who played basketball in the basketball club in my local town, and I saw

14     the liquidation of that group.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I think we would need to redact the

16     name that appear at page 49, line 28.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, please, line 28,

18     page 49, or line 24.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And as we still have the exhibit on the screen,

20     if I could ask the usher to assist us once again with -- have the witness

21     mark the approximate location of the apartment block being mentioned.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can to that, I can mark

23     it.

24             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The usher will provide you with a pen, and --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, why not a new

Page 11703

 1     map?

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Marcussen, the easiest thing is to -- you can

 3     continue on this map, but just because the new edition will then have a

 4     different exhibit number, and for that purpose it's better to ask the

 5     witness if he can indicate the next thing in blue, or green, or some

 6     other colour.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, Your Honour, I think just to avoid spending

 8     time zooming in again, we can maybe change the colour to whatever, green,

 9     blue.

10        Q.   And if you would now please, with a pen, mark the location.

11             Would the usher please give the pen to the witness.

12        A.   [Marks].

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you.  And so the location has now been

14     indicated in blue.  I don't think we need any further markings on this,

15     and I propose that we make this an exhibit now, which in one way replaces

16     the one we just made, but --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A number, please.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  This shall be Exhibit P628.  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's just clear one point.  The

20     blue marking, is that Zamlaz settlement, is that what the witness meant?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Hrid settlement.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What about Zamlaz, where is that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Zamlaz settlement is further

24     into Zvornik, deeper into the territory.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that the Prosecutor ought

Page 11704

 1     to have Zamlaz settlement marked, too.  If we have Hrid, we need Zamlaz.

 2     I assume the Prosecutor is well aware of that, and here I am in the

 3     position to help the Prosecutor.

 4             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Well, I was not intending to lead any evidence

 5     about that, so if the accused would want to have that marked at some

 6     point in time for some purpose, that's perfectly okay with me.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Indeed.  During

 8     cross-examination, Mr. Seselj, you can ask for this map again, and the

 9     witness can then indicate where Zamlaz is.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:

11        Q.   Could you please explain us -- the execution you saw, could you

12     please explain us what you saw?

13        A.   I saw masked soldiers opening fire and people falling.

14        Q.   Lastly -- well, maybe not lastly.  You also said that larger

15     groups of men were taken away.  Did you see men, groups of men, being

16     taken away?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  I saw one such group being taken away towards Zamlaz

18     that the accused just mentioned, and later on I heard the shots.  I

19     didn't see any liquidation, though.

20        Q.   Now, you told us earlier on what the ethnic composition of

21     Zvornik was prior to the events you have testified about today.  After

22     these events, what was the ethnic composition like?

23        A.   100 per cent Serbs, 0 per cent Muslims.

24        Q.   Did a similar change in the ethnic composition take place in

25     other parts of Bosnia?

Page 11705

 1        A.   Quite certainly, this whole belt, whole stretch along the Drina,

 2     was ethnically cleansed, including Grude, Visegrad, Bratunac, Zvornik,

 3     Vlasenica, Srebrenica, and all those municipalities.  All the entire

 4     Muslim population was expelled from those municipalities, and the whole

 5     thing happened in Northwestern Bosnia, Prijedor, Ljubija, that area

 6     around Banja Luka.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I'd like if we could now show Exhibit number 65

 8     ter 7011.

 9        Q.   The areas that you mentioned, are they indicated on the map that

10     you now see, in any particular colour?

11        A.   That is the area marked red.

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I'd like to tend this map, please.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit number P629.  Thank you.

15             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And, Your Honours, that concludes the direct

16     examination of this witness by the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have only one

18     question for you.  It's a question of military technique.

19             Arkan's men, you said that you saw some of them.  If I understood

20     the situation as it was from a military point of view, the JNA was

21     present in Zvornik.  Well, on the other side, were they going to shell

22     and bomb?  Apparently there are some tanks, and you said that the

23     infantry took control in groups of two to three, that's what you said

24     earlier on, so took control of houses and streets.

25             During that phase of the attack, at one point in time you spoke

Page 11706

 1     about the people you saw as they were liquidated.  That's the word you

 2     used.  They were liquidated by masked individuals.  What about these

 3     masked individuals?  Were they Arkan's men or were they foot soldiers of

 4     the JNA, infantrymen?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were people in camouflage

 6     uniforms and with balaclavas on their heads.  They could have been

 7     Arkan's men or JNA members, although I don't think that at that time the

 8     JNA wore those uniforms.  I think that they were paramilitary

 9     organisations.  The JNA units did the strategic part of the job, which is

10     the shelling and the intimidation of the population, because shells kept

11     landing, heavy-hardware shells.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the JNA was in charge of

13     logistics.  If you have a paramilitary unit of the type of Arkan's unit,

14     what was the use of it on the ground?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were ruthless killers.  The

16     only question they asked was, "Are you a Serb?"  If you were not a Serb,

17     you would be shot in the head.  The officers and troops of JNA could not

18     do that at that time.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you saw Arkan

20     at some point in time.  I'll not go into any detail.  What impression did

21     he give to you?  Was he just a madman, was he a military leader, an

22     idealist; what was your impression of him when you saw him in the flesh

23     and when you talked to him?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a baby face, a very likable

25     face, mischievous face, a thievish face.  He treated us fairly in the few

Page 11707

 1     contacts that we had, but it was obvious that he was completely in charge

 2     of the situation.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he was completely in charge

 4     of the situation, you say.  But does that mean that, technically

 5     speaking, he could order artillery shelling from JNA tanks?  Was he the

 6     number 1 or was he only the leader of a paramilitary unit?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Tacic was the artillery

 8     commander in that territory.  Now, what the relations were between Tacic

 9     and Arkan, I really don't know.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that you don't know at all.

11     Very well.

12             We're going to have the cross-examination, but it might be better

13     to have a break now.  We could start at 5.30, to work until 7.00.

14             What do you think, Mr. Seselj?  Would you rather have the break

15     now?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that it is better if I

17     start after the break.  At least that is better for me.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Well, let's have the break now.  We shall resume at 5.30, and we

20     shall work until 7.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 5.32 p.m.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

24             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 11708

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 2        Q.   Mr. VS-1093, you know that Bosnia and Herzegovina is one of the

 3     federal units of the former Yugoslavia, was under the Communist regime

 4     until 1990; is that correct?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   At the end of 1990, the first multiparty elections were held, at

 7     which the Communists lost power; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Three national parties won those elections, the Party of

10     Democratic Action, which rallied the Muslims, the Serbian Democratic

11     Party, which rallied the Serbs, and the Croatian Democratic Union which

12     rallied the Croats; is that correct?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

14             MR. MARCUSSEN:  As this is a witness with voice distortion, it's

15     my understanding that the accused will have to turn off his microphone

16     after he has put the question, before the witness answers.  It's one of

17     these technical difficulties we unfortunately have.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay, let me do that.  But you

19     could have found me an assistant, because sometimes it just slips my

20     mind, even though I'd like to do it.

21        Q.   So three national parties won the elections; right?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct, but I don't know why you're asking me that.

23        Q.   You know what, you have come here to answer questions.  I cannot

24     tell you beforehand why I am asking you any particular question, and be

25     kind so as to answer them.  I have no ill will towards you, so please be

Page 11709

 1     patient and answer the questions, because that is why you are here.

 2        A.   The same goes for you, and there are no problems.

 3        Q.   I haven't said anything to offend you, have I?

 4        A.   No, you haven't.

 5        Q.   Well, tell me if I do so.  If I say anything that you find

 6     insulting or offensive, please inform me and warn me.  Immediately, I

 7     shall try to avoid doing that.

 8        A.   No problem whatsoever.

 9             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The accused now turned down his microphone, but

10     during the other questions and answers, the microphone was not off.  It's

11     difficult.  I don't know if it's better that we just are in private

12     session, because it is hard also for me to remember.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, be careful.  Think

14     of the microphone, because if you do not switch off your microphone, the

15     voice of the witness will be heard through your microphone.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] [Interpretation].

18        Q.   These three national parties were in a coalition; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And supported each other at the elections, and the Muslim party

21     called up on the Muslims to vote for Serbian candidates to the Presidency

22     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbian party called up on the Serbs to

23     vote for the Muslim candidates and the Croatian party called upon their

24     voters to vote for the Serbian and Muslim candidates, and the Serbian and

25     Muslim parties asked their voters to support the Croatian candidates?

Page 11710

 1        A.   I was not in politics for long, but it was like that, more or

 2     less.

 3        Q.   But you were a member of the Party of Democratic Action, the

 4     largest Muslim party, and you pursued and followed its policies, so I

 5     suppose that you also voted for candidates of the Serbian Democratic

 6     Party and the Croatian Democratic Union to the presidency of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina, did you?

 8        A.   I do not remember.

 9        Q.   Fine.  There was a mutual trust among those parties until the

10     Communists were toppled and until war broke out in the area of the

11     Croatian federal unit; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   When war broke out, in connection with Croatia's attempts to

14     separate from Yugoslavia, to break away from Yugoslavia, which was

15     attended by the Tudjman's regime, and the Serbs in it did not want that

16     to be done, there was greater mistrust among the Serbian and Muslim

17     politicians; isn't that correct?

18        A.   Can you repeat the question?

19        Q.   When Tudjman tried to break away with Croatia from Yugoslavia,

20     which led to an armed conflict between him and the Serbs in the area of

21     the Croatian federal unit, and then between him and the JNA, that led to

22     the first mistrust between the leading Serb and Muslim politicians in

23     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Was I precise now?

24        A.   Yes, you were.

25        Q.   Was it like that?

Page 11711

 1        A.   I was not so deeply involved in politics to register all that.

 2        Q.   I reckon that you are a very educated man.  You are university

 3     educated.  I'm not going to say anything more, in order not to disclose

 4     your identity.  I see that you are an intelligent person.

 5        A.   Thank you.

 6        Q.   I can see that you are able to reply to these basic questions.

 7     But these are not trick questions.  I just want to paint, together with

 8     you, the general political scene.

 9        A.   All right, fine.

10        Q.   Was it the first cause of the mistrust which set in between

11     Muslim and Serbian politicians there?

12        A.   I don't think there was ever sincere trust between Muslim and

13     Serbian politicians, and this especially escalated when the war broke out

14     in Croatia.  You are right there.

15        Q.   Did the Muslims then stop to respond to JNA cause for

16     mobilisation en masse?

17        A.   Yes, they did.

18        Q.   Did they -- was it only or solely Serbs or almost solely Serbs

19     that responded to the call-up in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Looking in hindsight, was it a big mistake on the part of the

22     Bosnian leadership, because responding to the call-up, Serbs also got

23     hold of weapons, set up certain units of territorial defence controlled

24     by the JNA, and the Muslims themselves renounced all such possibilities;

25     is that correct?

Page 11712

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   And do you remember that the Muslims, in 1991, formed an

 3     organisation which was called the Patriotic League?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Was this -- did this Patriotic League have its military

 6     component?

 7        A.   Yes, it did.

 8        Q.   Was that the Green Berets?

 9        A.   That was a very poorly-organised structure which only served as a

10     pretext for aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina.  They had no

11     organising -- organisational, striking or manoeuvring capacity.

12        Q.   Well, but they did exist.  We can now have our differences

13     regarding the quality of that organisation; right?

14        A.   Right.

15        Q.   Tell me, you should know that there operated in the area of

16     Zvornik two Muslim political parties; right?

17        A.   Yes.  The Party of Democratic Action actually split.

18        Q.   There was a schism in the Party of Democratic Action?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In addition to that, there was the Muslim Bosniak organisation

21     headed at the level of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina by the prominent

22     intellectual Adil Zulfikarpasic who died recently; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you remember that the Muslim Bosniak organisation of Adil

25     Zulfikarpasic sought -- looked for a way to achieve a political solution

Page 11713

 1     with the Serbs and for Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain part of

 2     Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   I have read about it.

 4        Q.   Do you know that on the other hand, in the Party of Democratic

 5     Action there increasingly strengthened the aspiration for Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina to separate from Yugoslavia and declare independence?

 7        A.   These are known things.  Everybody knows about that.

 8        Q.   Very well.  We shall go on, and my questions are going to be

 9     very, very easy, I assure you.

10        A.   But I like difficult questions.

11        Q.   I don't have difficult questions for you.  I reserve them for the

12     OTP's experts.

13             Do you remember when these first political tensions arose in the

14     Zvornik municipality area, as well as the first misunderstandings between

15     the Serbs and the Muslims, that Radovan Karadzic and Adil Zulfikarpasic

16     sometime around the end of 1991 organised a joint rally of Muslims and

17     Serbs in the sports hall in Zvornik?

18        A.   Which was not actually held.

19        Q.   What do you mean, it was not held?

20        A.   It was not held.  It was called off.

21        Q.   I have a book here by Himzo Tulic, who wrote -- who published his

22     memoirs of these events in Zvornik, and on page 10 he claims that that

23     rally was indeed held and that the tensions between the Serbs and the

24     Muslims started to ease after that rally.

25        A.   I do not doubt that it is so written in that book, which I

Page 11714

 1     haven't read, but that rally of togetherness was never held in Zvornik.

 2        Q.   I don't know.  I do not live in Zvornik, as you know, and just on

 3     the basis of Himzo Tulic's book, I have this information that a joint

 4     rally was held and that this restored mutual trust, which was sustained

 5     until the beginning of 1992.  And you negate that?

 6        A.   Yes, 100 per cent.

 7        Q.   All right.  Do you know this:  At the end of 1991 and in 1992,

 8     there appeared in the Zvornik area some arms dealers who sold weapons to

 9     both Serbs and Muslims?

10        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that, I know that.

11        Q.   And they gradually intimidated the people in order to induce them

12     to buy their weapons; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, the people bought arms, they were intimidated.

14        Q.   Do you know any of those arm dealers?  Were they Muslims or

15     Serbs?

16        A.   I don't know any.  I never had dealings with any such persons.

17        Q.   Have you ever heard of a Pusula?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know that he, too, was an arms dealer?

20        A.   No, I don't know that.  I know that he was an extremist, and a

21     month before the war broke out he put on a camouflage uniform.

22        Q.   Very well.  Do you know that at the end of 1991 and beginning of

23     1992, the JNA conducted, in keeping with a decision of the Federal

24     Presidency, the taking over of the municipal archives of Secretariats of

25     National Defence which had the cards and lists of conscripts, military

Page 11715

 1     conscripts; do you know that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Do you know that the Muslim leadership throughout Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina asked its subordinates not to hand over the archives?

 5        A.   Yes, I know that.

 6        Q.   Do you know that the president of the Zvornik municipality,

 7     Abdulah Pasic -- that was his name; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That he ordered the chief of the Municipal Ministry of the

10     Interior, the chief of the municipal police, in other words, to prevent

11     the taking away of the municipal archives?

12        A.   I don't know that.

13        Q.   Do you know -- he didn't obey him.  Do you know who was the MUP

14     head in Zvornik?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   He was a Muslim; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What was his name?

19        A.   Osman Mustafic.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Previous translation continues]... are

21     overlapping, answering much too fast the questions that are being put to

22     you, and you are stepping over, Mr. Seselj, stepping over the answers

23     given by the witness.  Again, we kindly ask you to observe a short pause

24     between question and answer, both of you.

25             Thank you.

Page 11716

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you know that according to the orders of Juzbasic, namely, the

 3     chief of the municipal MUP, the municipal police actually assisted the

 4     soldiers of the Tuzla Corps, helped them when this documentation was

 5     being taken over?

 6        A.   Now you have confused the names of Juzbasic and -- actually, you

 7     mean Mustafic.

 8        Q.   Yes, I did make a mistake.  I'm sorry.

 9        A.   Do not apologise.  I don't know.  I was not in Zvornik that day.

10        Q.   Himzo Tulic writes about that, so I wanted to verify whether his

11     allegations were correct.  And who is Juzbasic?

12        A.   He was the president of the Party of Democratic Action in

13     Zvornik.

14        Q.   And between him and Abdulah Pasic, there was constant strife

15     within the party?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And this conflict contributed very much to the Muslims in Zvornik

18     not actually being ready when the war broke out and not being in

19     agreement?

20        A.   I don't know whether it was this conflict, but they were never in

21     accord in any of the municipalities.

22        Q.   You know that there was an order of the Yugoslav Presidency to

23     the effect that the JNA was to take over all weapons from the TO depots

24     and to place them under its control; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 11717

 1        Q.   And the JNA did so because there was a tendency, starting with

 2     Slovenia already, for the leaderships of the federal units to create new

 3     armies opposing the JNA through their Territorial Defence units; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I don't know about that.

 6        Q.   But you are clear on the fact that already in 1987, the

 7     General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army was renamed the General Staff

 8     of the Armed Forces, so that it was superior to both the JNA and the

 9     Territorial Defence; do you know that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Immediately after taking over the municipal National Defence

12     archives, the disarmament ensued of the Territorial Defence of the

13     Glinica, which had the strongest territorial defence in that area; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   That TO unit of the Alumina factory even had its own artillery?

17        A.   Yes, it did.

18        Q.   Very well.  Then in February, we have the stationing of an

19     armoured mechanised brigade of the JNA which arrived from Jastrebarsko,

20     which is from the surrounding parts of Zagreb; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that particular unit, as you yourself said, had its seat in

23     Sekovici, and it relocated from Dubrava.  First of all, it was near

24     Tuzla, Dubrava, and then went to Sekovici, and one of its battalions was

25     stationed in the Zvornik area; right?

Page 11718

 1        A.   Well, I don't know whether it was a battalion, but, anyway, key

 2     positions, that's where the tanks belonging to that brigade were.

 3        Q.   You know where Celopek and Radalj are?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what about those two places?  Was that where the main forces

 6     of this battalion were stationed?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   And the main role of that particular battalion was to protect the

 9     bridges along the Drina River, to protect the vital facilities, and so

10     that battalion was deployed for that purpose?

11        A.   That's what Colonel Tacic said.

12        Q.   Now, Zvornik before that didn't have a JNA garrison of its own,

13     did it?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Therefore, with the arrival of this battalion, Zvornik gained its

16     own JNA garrison, to all intents and purposes; right?

17        A.   Well, not -- Zvornik is not only the Serbian part of Zvornik.

18        Q.   Well, you know the Yugoslav People's Army was a Yugoslav army,

19     the only regular Yugoslav armed force; do you agree there?

20        A.   While Yugoslavia existed, I agree, yes.

21        Q.   Well, at the beginning of 1992, there was -- Yugoslavia was still

22     there.

23        A.   Well, it already began to disintegrate, and the JNA became --

24     came to represent the extremist interests more and more.

25        Q.   Well, Slovenia and Croatia had already stepped down from

Page 11719

 1     Yugoslavia, but all the other federal units remained within Yugoslavia,

 2     and the JNA was opposed to separatists wherever they raised their heads;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Well, that's all relative, what a separatist is or is not.

 5        Q.   Well, if Yugoslavia was the sole recognised international state

 6     in the area, then I assume that the separatists were all those who wanted

 7     to separate themselves from Yugoslavia.  Right?

 8        A.   Well, that's a philosophical question.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, microphone for the accused.

10     Microphone, please.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   All right.  If it's a philosophical question, I won't insist upon

13     it.

14             Now, I'm sure you know that the first incident broke out between

15     the local armed Muslim population and the JNA in a place called Sapna in

16     Zvornik municipality; right?

17        A.   Yes, I do know about that.

18        Q.   Do you know when that happened?

19        A.   I don't know the exact date, but it might have been some few

20     weeks before the war broke out.

21        Q.   A member of the JNA was killed on that occasion, right, a warrant

22     officer?

23        A.   Yes, but he was shot at first.

24        Q.   The JNA column was passing through Sapna, and somewhere in the

25     centre of Sapna it came across a large number of armed Muslims; right?

Page 11720

 1        A.   I don't know the details.

 2        Q.   Anyway, this warrant officer of the JNA asked those Muslims to

 3     surrender their arms?

 4        A.   I don't know anything about that incident.

 5        Q.   Well, how do you know that a Muslim was killed first and then

 6     this warrant officer?

 7        A.   It was on the Belgrade news, the incident.  And they interviewed

 8     a soldier who was wounded, and he said that it was the army that opened

 9     fire first.

10        Q.   Well, I watched the news regularly, but I didn't see that.  But

11     never mind, it's not important.  Anyway, a number of soldiers

12     disappeared.  They were arrested; right?

13        A.   Well, I said I don't know the details of the incident.

14        Q.   And do you know who Dragan Obrenovic is?  He was the commander of

15     this battalion, the Armoured Mechanised Brigade; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you know that Dragan Obrenovic threatened the armed Muslims

18     from Sapna and said that unless they returned the soldiers they had

19     captured, they would raze Sapna to the ground?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21        Q.   Do you know that those soldiers then were actually found and

22     released?

23        A.   I don't know that either, no.

24        Q.   And do you know that before this final clash in April 1992, in

25     fact, in the Zvornik municipality, there were many Muslim paramilitary

Page 11721

 1     organisations active already?

 2        A.   No, I don't know that.

 3        Q.   Well, here are the Muslim paramilitaries, paramilitary

 4     organisation.  They are listed by Himzo Tulic.  You know where Godusa is,

 5     don't you?

 6        A.   What did you say?

 7        Q.   Godusa.

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   It says in Godusa, there was mortar, and Nis, two paramilitary

10     organisations.  Have you heard of them?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Then in Zvornik itself there were the Cobras.  Have you heard of

13     the Cobras?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Have you heard of the Mosque Pigeons?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Have you heard of the HAP Platoon?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   HAP, that is a platoon that steals, right, that's the meaning of

20     the word "HAP"?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   Since I was born in Sarajevo, too, I think you and I understand

23     each other and "hapana," [phoen] the verb "hapana" means "to steal" in

24     the local jargon; right?

25        A.   Yes, but so that the person that is stolen from doesn't notice

Page 11722

 1     it.

 2        Q.   Well, all right, but you always notice when something is stolen

 3     from you, sometimes earlier, sometimes later.  But, anyway, have you

 4     heard of the Drina Zmajs or Dragons?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   How about the Muslim Battalion, have you heard of that?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Have you heard of the Satan legion, as it was called?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   All those paramilitary organisations Himzo Tulic lists on

11     page 130 and 131 of his book, and the Prosecutor has had that book of his

12     for a long time.  Of course, it didn't provide me with the book, so I had

13     to find it through other sources.

14             Anyway, Himzo Tulic says that all these units became the 206th

15     Zvornik Brigade.  Do you know about that, that the 206th Zvornik Brigade

16     was formed sometime in the second half of 1992?

17        A.   I only know about the units formed on the territory of Sapna.  So

18     if that's that unit, then I do.

19        Q.   Do you know that from the area of Zvornik municipality, by these

20     paramilitary organisations, they shot on the other side of the Drina

21     River?

22        A.   No, I don't know about that.

23        Q.   That they frequently opened fire from artillery -- infantry

24     weapons, light weapons, and sometimes mortars too.  You don't know that

25     either?

Page 11723

 1        A.   No, I don't.

 2        Q.   Do you know where the villages of Sakar and Amajlici [phoen] are?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Where?

 5        A.   Opposite Divici, and it's Amajic village.

 6        Q.   All right.  You're a local man so you know that better than me.

 7     I just read about it because other people provide me with information,

 8     and I'm testing that information in my examination of you.  So according

 9     to the information that I have provided to me by Mr. Milivoje Ivanisevic,

10     who was head of the centre for research into crimes against the Serbian

11     people, it was mostly the Muslims from Zvornik municipality who used

12     artillery, mortars, infantry weapons, to fire at these villages on the

13     opposite bank of the Drina River, that is to say, in Serbia.  What do you

14     have to say to that?

15        A.   Well, it seems quite unbelievable, because mostly Muslims live in

16     Sakar.

17        Q.   The Muslims and Serbs lived together and they never clashed.  The

18     only thing was that they were shot at from the opposite bank of the

19     Drina, and the opposite bank of the Drina River is Divic, which is almost

20     100 per cent Muslim; right?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   Do you know that on the 11th of February, 1993 -- no, 1992, there

23     were shots from automatic weapons fired across the Drina River, targeting

24     the Raketa bus running along the route from Bajina Basta to Belgrade in

25     Zvornik -- or, rather, from Vucica [phoen], and Vesna Zivanovic, one of

Page 11724

 1     the passengers, was wounded, and I have the license plates of that

 2     particular bus.  Did you hear about that incident?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   All right.  If you've never heard of that, let's move on.  Let's

 5     see whether you've heard of some of these other things.

 6             You've already told us here that the Serb population from Zvornik

 7     municipality left their town, I think you said, two days before the

 8     beginning of the conflict.  Right?

 9        A.   That's right, yes.

10        Q.   All the Serbs quite literally left Zvornik; right?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   Now, what organisation could it be to force the entire Serbian

13     population, and the Serbs amounted to over 40 per cent of the inhabitants

14     of town, to leave their apartments and homes and flee across the Drina

15     River, leaving behind all their property?  What kind of organisation

16     would be capable of putting something like that into effect?

17        A.   Well, I've already said that it's almost -- it's quite

18     unbelievable how well organised and well disciplined it was.  Now, what

19     organisation would be capable of doing that, I said I didn't know.

20        Q.   Well, historically speaking, the Serbs were never a disciplined,

21     well-disciplined nation.  There's a proverb that says that each Serb has

22     a policy, an idea of his own, and now suddenly you have them pulling

23     together, deciding to leave all their property behind and flee across the

24     Drina River.  So it can't be just an organisation that made them do that.

25     There must be another reason for them fleeing en masse.

Page 11725

 1        A.   I don't know what to say to that.

 2        Q.   Well, the reason for that was that the Muslim leadership of the

 3     municipality and the SDA Party previously tried to pull in the worst

 4     Muslims in the paramilitary organisations to loot in town, abuse the

 5     population, and so on and so forth.  They tried to recruit these people?

 6        A.   No, that's not right.

 7        Q.   So you're saying that these criminals were not mobilised and

 8     recruited into the paramilitary units?

 9        A.   Not as far as I know.

10        Q.   And do you know that as soon as the Serbs left Zvornik, that

11     their homes were looted?

12        A.   I don't know that, no.

13        Q.   Well, I find that strange that you don't know about that, because

14     these are well-known facts.  And do you know that Alija Izetbegovic, as

15     president of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 4th of April

16     issued an order by which all Muslim conscripts should be mobilised into

17     special units of the Territorial Defence which would be outside JNA

18     control?

19        A.   Through the Municipal Secretariat, that is to say the SUP, we did

20     receive orders of that kind for mobilisation, but there was no question

21     of separating from the JNA.  And, in fact, that order was never able to

22     be implemented, because if you mobilise someone, you have to provide

23     accommodation and food and all the other facilities.  So that was an

24     illusion that was never put into effect.

25        Q.   And when was the Crisis Staff established in Zvornik?

Page 11726

 1        A.   About two or three days before the conflict broke out.

 2        Q.   And that Crisis Staff was formed by the Muslim Party of

 3     Democratic Action, right, the SDA?

 4        A.   Well, that Crisis Staff was automatically established.  Now, who

 5     came from the municipality?  They were mostly prominent citizens who went

 6     to the SUP to see what could be done.  There was no instruction to do so,

 7     anything like -- no call-up or anything like that.

 8        Q.   They almost laid down an ultimatum and told the JNA to return its

 9     weapons to the TO from the depots?

10        A.   No, there was no question of that.

11        Q.   And did you know that already at the meetings of the Crisis Staff

12     that were held, there was a clash between the two Muslim factions?

13        A.   You're speaking about a crisis staff which I didn't know was in

14     existence.

15        Q.   Well, Himzo Tulic is writing about that, and I didn't know of

16     their existence before I read his book.  On page 15 of his book, he

17     refers to the Crisis Staff of the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA.

18     Do you believe what Himzo Tulic writes?

19        A.   Well, I know Himzo Tulic personally.  I know him to be a serious

20     intellectual, a fellow citizen, but I wouldn't like to delve into other

21     matters, about whether what he writes is true or false.

22        Q.   Well, I don't think one can believe him in all the things he

23     says, but some things you can believe, especially when he describes the

24     situation among the Muslim ranks.  I think he was fairly objective in

25     describing that situation.  He speaks about Muslim-Serb relations in a

Page 11727

 1     slightly heated manner, but there's no reason for him not to be objective

 2     when he describes the situation among the Muslims.

 3        A.   Well, I don't want to go into his reasons.  That's his own

 4     affair.

 5        Q.   Do you know that the activists of the Party of Democratic Action

 6     on several occasions journeyed to Sarajevo to ask for mediation in that

 7     conflict of theirs?

 8        A.   Yes, I do know about that.

 9        Q.   Do you know that one stream, one faction, was supported by Omer

10     Bekber [phoen] and the other by Hasan Cengic?

11        A.   No, I don't know that.

12        Q.   Do you know that several days before the conflict broke out, one

13     of those two sides wanted to prove, at a meeting of the Crisis Staff,

14     that it had armed the Muslim people well, and if it came to war, the

15     Serbian Democratic Party and the JNA would stand no chance?

16        A.   No, I don't know about that.

17        Q.   It was so persuasive that most of the people believed it, and

18     Himzo Tulic claims that you weren't allowed to lie to the people, he says

19     that on page 16 of his book, and that this in fact led to a greater

20     defeat of the Muslim forces than could ever have been expected, this

21     conceit, in actual fact.  What do you have to say to that?

22        A.   Well, I think that in the Zvornik municipality, there was no

23     respectable military unit with any manoeuvre -- manoeuvring power which

24     would be successful in standing up to the Yugoslav People's Army, which

25     had tanks and all the rest of the equipment.

Page 11728

 1        Q.   Well, you were proved right ultimately.  However, these Muslim

 2     politicians didn't understand that at the time, and they were conceited

 3     and thought that they could be victorious in that conflict?  They deluded

 4     themselves, in fact; right?

 5        A.   Well, it wasn't the only erroneous evaluation made by that

 6     leadership.  Later on, we found that all their assessments were wrong and

 7     all their plans were wrong.

 8        Q.   Well, I think you're quite right when you say that.  And when

 9     this arming started of the local criminals and the setting up of

10     paramilitary groups, is it correct that all Serbian policemen fled

11     Zvornik?

12        A.   Well, the SUP simply separated itself.  The Serbian SUP relocated

13     to Karakaj.  And the reason for that separation was not the arming of

14     criminals, because that is not correct.  They simply got such a

15     directive.

16        Q.   But wait a minute.  Some fled with arms, and some didn't even

17     manage to get arms and they rushed to Karakaj; isn't that so?

18        A.   I don't know in what way they left.

19        Q.   And Karakaj is a suburb of Zvornik mainly inhabited by Serbs; is

20     that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And between the Serbian suburbs and the center of the city, there

23     were barricades put up on both sides, the Serbian and the Muslim?

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   Armed guards manned the roadblocks, the barricades, and they

Page 11729

 1     controlled all traffic; is that right?

 2        A.   That is right.

 3        Q.   So there wasn't a single route leading from the centre of Zvornik

 4     in any direction that didn't have Muslim barricades on one side and the

 5     Serbian barricades on the other; am I right?

 6        A.   The Muslims put up roadblocks in Zvornik two days before the war,

 7     and the Serbs had done that a month before the war.  One could not leave

 8     Zvornik either towards Tuzla or towards Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   First of all, this didn't happen until the Serbian police fled

10     Zvornik?

11        A.   I don't know what the link is between these two events.

12        Q.   Tell me, how many Serbs were there in the Zvornik police force,

13     on the Zvornik police force?  Was it proportionate to the number of

14     inhabitants?

15        A.   I don't know those ratios.

16        Q.   But one could say half/half, perhaps a bit less of the Muslims,

17     but approximately the same?

18        A.   Well, the municipal structures were quite correctly divided, both

19     in the SUP as well as in the other municipal organs.

20        Q.   Very well.  How was -- how did it happen that a part of the

21     weapons was distributed to the Muslim side?

22             Himzo Tulic writes about that on the 18th page of his book.  This

23     is for the benefit of the OTP.

24        A.   This distribution never took place, actually, or not that I know

25     of.  I think that this is a mistake on the part of Mr. Tulic, because the

Page 11730

 1     weapons were in Tuzla.  The TO weapons were in Tuzla, and it was only in

 2     May that the JNA left Tuzla.

 3        Q.   But the Crisis Staff in Zvornik did have at its disposal -- the

 4     Muslim Crisis Staff in Zvornik did have some weapons at its disposal.

 5     Why would Himzo Tulic have made that up?  He was not

 6     anti-Muslim-inclined.  On the contrary.

 7        A.   I don't know anything about those facts.

 8        Q.   All right.  You spoke about the arrest of these four Arkan's men

 9     who had arrived -- who had come against a Muslim roadblock at Karakaj, at

10     the entrance to Zvornik.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were you sure all four of them were Arkan's men?

13        A.   They had identity cards which showed that they belonged to

14     Arkan's units.

15        Q.   As you were in touch with them, do you remember that anyone or

16     someone from Belgrade, from a very high position, called the local Muslim

17     leadership and insisted that these four men be released?

18        A.   I don't know that.

19        Q.   Have you heard of General Nedjo Boskovic?

20        A.   No, I haven't.

21        Q.   Fine.  I have already presented here the statement -- a statement

22     of one of these four.  His name is Vojin Vuckovic, Zuco, and he claims

23     that the four of them had been ordered by Nedjo Boskovic to go to

24     Zvornik, find Pusula, arrest him, and bring him to Belgrade on account of

25     his arms dealing.  Do you know anything about that?

Page 11731

 1        A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

 2        Q.   Were you told anything about that by these four arrested men?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Why would they have sets of handcuffs with them?

 5        A.   Each one of them had a set of handcuffs.  Later, one of them

 6     committed some mass murders in Karakaj.

 7        Q.   But all this happened later?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   We know what happened later, but you are giving testimony up to

10     the time of this conflict, because after it you were not in Zvornik.

11     That is why I'm asking you only these questions.  I know what the role of

12     his unit was afterwards.  He claims that at this Muslim roadblock, they

13     were stopped by a group of some 20 Muslims without any patches, without

14     any emblems or markings and uniforms.  They were in civilian clothes.

15     They had Hungarian Klashnikovs, they were armed with Hungarian automatic

16     rifles.  Do you know anything about that?

17        A.   I think that this is an exaggerated number, 20.  I know that two

18     people from Zvornik brought them to the SUP building.  They were these

19     local smugglers.

20        Q.   Do you know how dangerous and how capable, in the military sense,

21     people are, that it is impossible for a couple of people, citizens of

22     Zvornik, even if they are armed to the teeth, to actually arrest them and

23     bring them in?  It had to have been a larger unit.

24        A.   I would not venture an opinion, an assessment, about their

25     military training or capacity, capability.

Page 11732

 1        Q.   Do you know who Sinan Kameric [phoen] is?

 2        A.   No, I don't.

 3        Q.   Do you know who the brothers Mustafa and Benjamin Halilovic are?

 4        A.   Yes, I know they're from Zvornik.

 5        Q.   Are they known as criminals -- were they known as criminals

 6     before the war?

 7        A.   No, they were not.

 8        Q.   Well, according to the information that I have obtained by my

 9     investigators, they were criminals even before the war and they were in

10     the group that arrested Legija, Zuco, and another two persons.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Will the accused and witness please pause

12     between question and answer.

13        A.   These Mustafic brothers were holiest.  They did not loot, they

14     were not criminals.  They had no convictions, were never in prison.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, my associates recently

16     visited Milorad Lukovic, Legija, at the Central Prison in Belgrade.  You

17     know that he also is implicated in the murder of Zoran Djindjic.  They

18     interviewed him, and he wrote an extensive statement in his own hand,

19     which was authenticated by the prison authorities.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you're examining

21     the witness, you're not testifying yourself.

22             And may I take this opportunity to remind both of you, once

23     again, please to observe a short pause between question and answer,

24     because the interpreters cannot follow you, and thus they cannot

25     interpret what you are telling to each other.

Page 11733

 1             Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I have to tell you that my

 3     associates have this important statement, which I would be using today

 4     had not all my communication with my legal advisers been severed.  So

 5     that statement has not reached me, unfortunately, but I did have to

 6     comment on this in this way.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  As I believe the Prosecution has already

 8     indicated to the Chamber, we object to the accused making these wrong

 9     representations regarding his communication with his Defence counsel --

10     his associates.  His communication has not been cut off.  It is being

11     monitored, but he's able to communicate with them.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will shortly

13     hand down a decision on this particular subject.

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Whatever the case may be,

15     Mr. Seselj, this statement would have been in Serbian, or has the

16     statement been translated?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would certainly be in Serbian,

18     because I speak no other language.  And I just don't have time -- I don't

19     have enough time to learn any other language.  I'd love to learn Italian,

20     Madam Lattanzi, that's the desire of my life, but not English.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Well, that is another question.

22             You have the duty to ask the translation department to translate

23     those documents which you wish to adduce during the hearing, because the

24     Bench is not familiar with the Serbian language.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me seize the opportunity,

Page 11734

 1     Mr. Seselj, briefly.  I'm looking at the clock.

 2             The Trial Chamber has given you credit for translation purposes.

 3     I think you're entitled to something like 10.000 pages, if I'm not

 4     mistaken.  So all this is costly for the Tribunal, and to date I believe

 5     we -- this has not materialised.  You have so far not shown a single

 6     translated document.

 7             You mentioned the name of this person, who is currently in jail,

 8     who has provided you with a statement.  This might be very interesting

 9     and very important to you.  This is something that you could have had

10     translated, and in that case you could have adduced it today.

11             This is what I wanted to tell you.  Please proceed.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, had I received it on

13     time, I would have probably have given it for translation, but I cannot

14     tell my associates, "Send me this or that," even though the Registry is

15     monitoring communication, because I don't know what is in the statement.

16     Maybe Legija wrote that there had been five people in the car and that I

17     was the fifth person, and I cannot have the Registry see that.  If it is

18     in the vehicle that I was in the car with Legija and Zuca, and the

19     Registry would give it immediately to the OTP, and the OTP would have it

20     on paper that I was the fifth person in the car.  So until I have seen it

21     and verified what is in it, it cannot reach any other hands, including

22     that of the Registry.  That is the problem.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, the Registry will not pass on,

24     neither to the Prosecution, nor to the Bench, any of the information that

25     they may become familiar with during the monitoring of your

Page 11735

 1     communications.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is so, in theory,

 3     Judge Harhoff.  That is the way it would have to be from the legal

 4     aspect, but the distance between legal regulations and the actual state

 5     of affairs is huge.  I have no trust whatsoever in the Registry, and I

 6     have a lot of argumentation to corroborate that with.

 7             But shall I continue?  What I want to do is just to present my

 8     problem, but you know --

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It has to be recorded.  I also

10     want to be very clear as to the tapping.

11             If the Registrar does not communicate anything to the Judges or

12     to the Prosecutor, what is the point of having that service, that

13     tapping?

14             Now it's recorded.  Continue.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I understood that

16     the accused was referring to the documents he received, and that

17     Judge Harhoff also referred to the documents and not to the outcome of

18     the tapping itself.  That's how I understood.  Maybe I was wrong.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Seselj.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Here I have a statement of Colonel Tacic, who was the commander

22     of this armoured mechanised brigade, and he claims in it --

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

25             The Judges have discussed the issue of monitoring by the Registry

Page 11736

 1     of documents.  It is a very complicated matter that may be such as to be

 2     divisive among the Judges, so I think it's better to move on to other

 3     things.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As I do not have much time at my

 5     disposal, I'm not going to present the entire statement of Colonel Tacic,

 6     but I will interpret a part of the substance.

 7             Colonel Tacic says that the moment his brigade arrived in the

 8     area, he intensified to the maximum his contacts with the leadership of

 9     the -- of Zvornik municipality, especially with the Muslim leaders.  And

10     he states their names, starting with Abdulah Pasic and on, and that he

11     wished for a constructive atmosphere to be created for tensions to be

12     eased, and for that JNA unit to be the guarantor of peace and security in

13     the general area of Zvornik.

14        Q.   Is it your impression that Colonel Tacic indeed tried to achieve

15     something like that?

16        A.   You're asking me?

17        Q.   I have nobody else to ask.  Nobody else will answer my questions,

18     to tell you frankly.

19        A.   Well, until the outbreak of the conflict, I agree with his

20     statement and his claim.  But, however, he is a professional soldier who

21     followed orders that he received from his superior, and the moment he was

22     ordered to open fire on Zvornik, he did so.

23        Q.   In the statement given by Colonel Tacic to me, he claims that his

24     unit had manning problems, that he had at his disposal quite a lot of

25     hardware and weaponry, but he had few men, because when the unit was

Page 11737

 1     moved from Jastrebarsko, from near Zagreb, the Muslims, the Slovenes, the

 2     Croats and partly the Muslims left -- simply left the units, so that this

 3     attrition of his unit was a problem that he was faced with throughout his

 4     stay in that area.  Did you know that he had problems with manpower?

 5        A.   He actually complained that he lacked rear facilities, that he

 6     lacked cooks and mechanics, and that he could take some on if this center

 7     of ours was given to him.

 8        Q.   But he also needed infantry, because tanks cannot function really

 9     successfully without infantry crews; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, those are the fundaments of military tactics.

11        Q.   I believe that this entire region from Karakaj to Bijeljina was

12     already without question, but he mobilised military conscripts in order

13     to man his unit and to make his unit efficient, but his problem was that

14     only Serbs responded to the call for mobilisation and the Muslims evaded

15     it.  Is that correct?

16        A.   No, it is not correct.  He actually launched this call-up after

17     the conflict had broke out, when it was quite clear that there would be

18     an attack on Zvornik.

19        Q.   When was it clear to you that there would be an attack on

20     Zvornik?

21        A.   After these talks that we had in Mali Zvornik.

22        Q.   But these talks actually happened a day prior to the attack, but

23     what matters here is that mobilisation was carried out and that unit was

24     replenished.  Why would the unit attack Zvornik at all, an armoured

25     mechanised brigade, if it was the only military force in the Zvornik

Page 11738

 1     area?  Who was it to attack?  There was no one for it to attack.  It was

 2     in control of everything.  It was the only military force in the area.

 3     Everything was doing their job, the police was doing its job, the

 4     citizens were going to work.  It was a normal life, business as usual.

 5     Was it not like that?

 6        A.   No, it was like that.

 7        Q.   But explain it to me.  Why not?

 8        A.   Well, Zvornik was attacked in order to be ethnically cleansed.

 9     The Serbs had not fled, that was not it at all.  The Serbs simply

10     vanished from Zvornik.  And on the pretext of -- actually, I would like

11     it to be corrected, that all these units that you enumerated indeed

12     existed in Bosnia would be liberated in a couple of days.  But, no, that

13     was not the case.  This job was to be done, this other one.

14        Q.   But tell me, how was it that the Serbs simply vanished and the

15     Muslims fled or were being driven away, expelled or similar?  One should

16     think when a civil war breaks out, and that was a civil war between the

17     Orthodox Serbs and the Muslims, let us leave the Croats for the time

18     being aside, because there were not many of them in that part of Bosnia,

19     how come that some vanished and others were driven away?  Were not those

20     Serbs ethnically cleansed if it was only a couple of days before that

21     final showdown, final conflict, that they disappeared from Zvornik?

22        A.   Yes, but they came back a couple of days after the ethnic

23     cleansing of Zvornik had taken place.

24        Q.   The Serbs returned after the Muslim military units had been

25     defeated; isn't that correct?

Page 11739

 1        A.   No, it isn't.

 2        Q.   All right.  You say it's not.  Let's leave it at that.  Now, tell

 3     me, please, if that is not the case, tell me, then, how come Kula Grad,

 4     for a full 20 days, resisted the JNA, and the JNA had the Territorials,

 5     the police force, volunteers, and even Arkan's men within its

 6     composition, so they managed to prevail for 20 days?  They resisted

 7     tanks, cannons, mortars.  How could they do that if the Muslims were

 8     unarmed and if they didn't have their military formations?  How would

 9     they have been able to do that?

10        A.   Well, during those 20 days, there wasn't a single serious

11     infantry attack launched.  They just shelled the area, and the infantry

12     didn't engage in any decisive combat.

13        Q.   My information tells me that there were infantry attacks and that

14     the Serbs had suffered serious losses.  Even Arkan's man Rambo, whatever

15     his name was, that prominent member of his unit.  Have you heard of

16     Rambo?

17        A.   No, but I did hear that one of Arkan's men were killed, one of

18     his close associates.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, fine.  Now perhaps

20     you'll insist, Judges, that this be heard in closed session, in private

21     session, although I'm opposed to that but I can't prevent you.  Because I

22     have a number of questions now which might help disclose this person's

23     identity, so it's up to you to decide.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Closed session, Mr. Registrar,

25     or private session.

Page 11740

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 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 11741











11 Page 11741 redacted. Private session.















Page 11742

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you know that when the Muslim soldiers withdrew to Kula Grad,

23     that they received reinforcements there from Kalesija and Zivinice?

24        A.   That's not true.

25        Q.   How do you know it's not true?

Page 11743

 1        A.   Because there was no organisation at all which could accomplish

 2     that.  They were just verbal -- there was just verbal support.  But in

 3     practice, it didn't function.  It was the mentality of the HAP Platoon.

 4        Q.   The HAP Platoon.  Did the HAP Platoon appear up there?

 5        A.   No, the HAP ward -- the HAP Platoon was established later after

 6     May.

 7        Q.   Do you know who Izet Mehinagic is?

 8        A.   Yes, it sounds familiar.

 9        Q.   Well, it sounds familiar too.  We were colleagues in the Students

10     Alliance in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1970s, and as far as I remember he

11     studied political science.  Right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   What did he study?

14        A.   Machine engineering.

15        Q.   Right, machine engineering, but he was the secretary of the

16     Municipal Board of the Student Alliance of Sarajevo.  I know him well.

17     Have you any news of him?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   But why I'm asking you is this:  After the Muslim forces withdrew

20     from Zvornik, he held, together with Asim Juzbasic -- do you know who

21     Asim Juzbasic is?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   As I was saying, he held a press conference in Tuzla on the 10th

24     of April, 1992, and this was published the day after by the main

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina newspaper, 'Oslobodjenje', said that the Serb forces

Page 11744

 1     had quite a number of wounded and killed, and that the Muslim forces,

 2     until the departure, had about 15 wounded and 1 killed.  Did you hear

 3     about that press conference of theirs?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, did you hear that there were indeed quite

 6     a lot of Serbs who lost their lives in that fighting?

 7        A.   No, I never heard that.

 8        Q.   Except from that statement of theirs; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   All right.  Now, you describe -- but is that true, is what you

11     said correct?  Well, to tell you the truth, I wasn't there, I can't say

12     either way.  You were closer to the events than I was.  Perhaps you don't

13     know the whole truth of it, but you're a witness here and you're

14     testifying, I assume, to the best of your knowledge and your life

15     experience, the experiences you had there which unfortunately were very

16     difficult and tragic.  So I can't be ill disposed towards you, because

17     your experience was worse than mine.  And there is a little humanity in

18     me, so somebody who went through troubles like you, I don't want to

19     mistreat.  I want to have a dialogue with you so that you can give

20     yes-or-no answers.  It's up to me to ask you and up to you to answer.

21        A.   That's how I understood it, and I think that I was proper in my

22     conduct with you thus far.

23        Q.   Well, yes, you were, but you have no reason to be disrespectful.

24        A.   No, I don't.

25        Q.   I'm seeing you here for the first time, and I don't think that

Page 11745

 1     you testified untruthfully.  I think you testified to the best of your

 2     ability according to your experiences.  Now, in every testimony there are

 3     weak points, and it's up to me to find those weak points.  Do you agree.

 4        A.   Yes.  Go ahead.

 5        Q.   Now, what is particularly important, as far as I'm concerned here

 6     is the following:  Now, you described and said that you were observing

 7     from your vantage point on the hill when the Serb JNA forces entered

 8     Zvornik.  You were observing that, and you said that Arkan's men in the

 9     village -- what was the name of that village, Namlaz [phoen]?  Well, it

10     was a settlement.

11        A.   No, it's Zamlaz and Hrid, and it's part of Zvornik.

12        Q.   Very well.  Anyway, in your statement, this is what you say.  You

13     say that you had binoculars and that from a distance, that is to say, up

14     on the hill where you were, you were able to see Arkan's men.  You

15     recognised them by their uniforms.  And you say you saw the four young

16     men whom you had previously arrested and taken to the police station in

17     Zvornik.  And that's to be found on page 7 of your statement; right?

18        A.   No, it's not.  I didn't mention that.

19        Q.   Well, then somebody put that in contrary to your will.  Did the

20     Prosecutor show you your statement today?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And did you notice it?

23        A.   What page?

24        Q.   Page 7.  You say you saw Arkan's men because they had the same

25     uniforms as the four young men "whom we arrested and took to the police

Page 11746

 1     station in Zvornik."  That's what you allegedly said.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 3             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The accused has clarified his questions on that

 4     point here, so I have nothing.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   So judging by their uniforms, you recognised them to be Arkan's

 7     men?

 8        A.   Yes, I assumed that was the case, yes.

 9        Q.   And in Zamlaz, you saw them in front of the building.  You saw

10     them taking out a group of men, among whom there was Sabit Bilalic with

11     his two sons, and that they shot at them; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, I don't doubt that this crime occurred, because we had

14     witnesses who were eyewitnesses to that crime and indeed testified that

15     Sabit Bilalic and his two sons were killed, along with another number of

16     Muslims, some 20 Muslims.  I'm not sure of the exact figure.  But it's a

17     little strange to me that you could have seen this from Mladjevac Hill,

18     so I'd like to ask you now whether you learned about this liquidation in

19     Zamlaz from some other people and then you mixed it up in your mind and

20     you thought you'd seen it actually happen with your own eyes.

21        A.   Well, I did see it with my very own eyes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's a little strange, in

23     my opinion, so I'd like to take a look at the map that the Prosecutor

24     showed us earlier on.  And as I am able to find my way quite well in

25     maps -- on maps, I personally think that that is impossible, so can we

Page 11747

 1     have the map back, the one in which the witness marked the various

 2     locations?  Can we have it back on our screens, please?

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Let me explain this to you better.  I believe that the incident

 6     took place and that that liquidation did take place, but I have a problem

 7     here, and it's to do with your memory and how you remember it.  I assume

 8     that people told you about it and that you couldn't have actually

 9     witnessed it yourself from your position up on the hill.  So let's take a

10     look at that.  And I assume that you can do map-reading fairly well, too,

11     so let's look at the map and see what we come up with.

12             Now, here we have the map, so you can see where Mladjevac Hill is

13     near Divic.  Were you on top of that hill?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Where were you, then?

16        A.   I was on the slopes below Kula Grad.

17        Q.   So between Mladjevac and Kula Grad?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Below Mladjevac Hill?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I can see that that is an elevation of 524 metres.  Right?

22        A.   Well, I can't see that, but --

23        Q.   It says so on the map.  Now, tell me, how far below Mladjevac

24     Peak were you, looking towards Kula Grad?

25        A.   Well, it was a slope.  I was on a slope which might have been

Page 11748

 1     some several hundred metres.

 2        Q.   You mean below the top of the hill?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, you're looking at Kula Grad in front of you?

 5        A.   No, it's to my side.

 6        Q.   Right, Kula Grad is to your side, and it runs right towards the

 7     Drina.  The fortress goes right up to the Drina River, because I passed

 8     by that way several times in my car.  I know that.  So the fortress is on

 9     the edge of the water, and you have the hill in front of you, and the

10     highest peak at which Kula Grad lies is at an altitude of 524 metres.

11     And you're far below the peak, down a slope several hundred metres, which

12     doesn't mean that it's several hundred metres below the peak, because

13     there's an angle of inclination for a slope.

14             Now, show me something that the Prosecutor wouldn't allow you to

15     do, and that is indicate where Zamlaz is.

16        A.   Zamlaz is located -- but that happened in Hrid.

17        Q.   You mean the liquidation?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   But we have eyewitness testimony that it was in Zamlaz

20     settlement, and the Prosecutor called certain witnesses who said that.

21     And where is Hrid?  You indicated it to us on the map.  Hrid is roughly

22     two kilometres away from Mladjevac, right, from the top of Mladjevac

23     Hill?

24        A.   Yes.  And now as the crow flies, it's less than one and a half

25     kilometres.

Page 11749

 1        Q.   But you were far below this altitude of 524 metres?

 2             MR. MARCUSSEN:  It seems that we have a whole series of

 3     compounded questions.  I wonder whether the accused would like the

 4     witness to mark on the map or not, because so far nothing has been

 5     marked.  The witness pointed to the map, but not with the kind of pen

 6     that can mark on the map, so does the accused want any markings?  Then

 7     I think we should have them [indiscernible].

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, if you want these

 9     series of questions to be useful, you need to ask the witness to mark the

10     map, a clean map.  And we can display a clean map, if you intend to

11     request the admission of this map.  But if it's not your intention, then

12     I believe this line of questions is totally useless.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it is to no avail, it's to

14     my own detriment, Mr. President.

15             In the statement on page 7 the witness says that the distance

16     between him and Zvornik had been 500 metres as the crow flies.  That is

17     on page 5 of his statement.  If that distance, looking on the map, was

18     two kilometres, as the distance as the crow flies between the place where

19     he was and the Hrid settlement, has to be bigger if you use the

20     Pythagoras theory, and we can actually calculate the distance, because

21     the distance the crow flies is not under the right angle, he's not

22     looking at the right angle.  He is at a certain elevation, and he is

23     looking on events which are down in the valley, at an elevation much

24     lower than his position.  So the distance between him and that place

25     cannot be two kilometres.  But following Pythagoras' theory, it has to be

Page 11750

 1     a much bigger distance.  So if we calculated exactly, I don't know what

 2     the elevation of the city of Zvornik is, but if it is a much lower

 3     elevation than Mladjevac, but that distance has to be 3 or 3.5

 4     kilometres.  So I wonder what kind of binoculars that he had if he was

 5     able to see all that.

 6             But I'm not challenging the truthfulness of his statement.  I'm

 7     just seeking to show that there has to be a mistake in his memory, even

 8     though he has no intention of falsely testifying.  It is impossible to

 9     discern what was happening so clearly from Mladjevac Hill in the area

10     where he says these incidents happened.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  We've listened -- in

12     fact, Witness, you've listened to the submissions of the accused based on

13     the theorem of Pythagoras, so what do you have to say?  Do you agree or

14     not?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the distance between my

16     position and where these events happened was less than a kilometre,

17     because from Divici to the center of Zvornik, it is two kilometres, so

18     that this distance, the two rectangles, is quite correct.  I was under

19     Divici about a -- below Divici about a kilometre, and this position is in

20     front of Zvornik, so that this is actually a much smaller distance than

21     what the accused claims.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, would it be possible for you with a

23     pen to mark with just one single dot exactly where you think you were

24     standing when you saw the executions at Hrid?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are constantly in a rush, and

Page 11751

 1     constantly climbing up, and constantly observing and looking on, but

 2     basically we moved about in this region which I've already marked.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been asked to do

 4     something that could be extremely useful for us.  Please indicate, with a

 5     dot, the place -- the location where you were when you witnessed these

 6     events.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Well, I'll mark this area here

 8     [marks].

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And the record should reflect that it's now a

11     black circle that has been made.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's on the record, but we

13     could give a new number to the map.

14             Mr. Registrar, can we have another number for the map.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this should be Exhibit number D20.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Registrar, that cannot be true.  630,

18     perhaps.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Here we are faced with a legal

22     problem.  The Registrar just gave the map the following number, D20.

23     It's a Defence exhibit.  If that's the case, Mr. Seselj, it means that

24     you requested a number for this exhibit.  It may have escaped you, but

25     nothing escapes me.  So I see that at line 8 of page 98, Exhibit

Page 11752

 1     number D20 has been given to this map.  In other words, this map has been

 2     tendered into evidence based on your request.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you know that I do

 4     not ask for anything.  I just wanted to demonstrate, in practice for you,

 5     how it is possible for something to be erroneous in somebody's memory

 6     without there being an intention on the witness's part to testify

 7     falsely.  I only think that it is possible for the witness to confuse

 8     what he had heard from other people and what he had seen with his very

 9     own eyes, because he could have recognised from that hill Sabit Bilalic

10     and his two sons only if he had watched them with a telescope.

11             But that is of no importance for my further cross-examination,

12     because I have concluded my cross-examination with this question.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine, you've completed your

14     cross-examination.

15             What we're going to do is we're going to give a Trial Chamber

16     number to this exhibit.  Mr. Registrar, please remove this exhibit

17     number, D20, and we're going to give a "C" number to this exhibit.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Correction.  In the transcript, this exhibit

19     won't be given Exhibit number D20.  Instead, it will be given Exhibit

20     number C9.  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have five minutes left

22     before the break.  Mr. Marcussen, any re-examination?

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on my behalf and on

25     behalf of my colleagues, thank you for having come and testified in

Page 11753

 1     The Hague.

 2             Please do not leave the courtroom before we draw down the blinds,

 3     but I'm going to ask the Registrar for us to move into private session

 4     immediately.  I have something to tell you all.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

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Page 11754











11 Page 11754 redacted. Private session.















Page 11755

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hope that what you

15     said -- this last thing which you said was not for private session, that

16     it could have been disclosed to the public.

17             I should just like to correct it to tell you that I did not ask

18     for the Registrar to inform me of Rule 45 ter.  I asked for him to inform

19     me of the recently-adopted amendments of the Rules, and then he brought

20     me this new Rule as an amendment of the Rules.  It was not a Rule 45 ter

21     that I asked for.  I asked them to inform me of any changes to the Rules.

22     Otherwise, they do this very frequently.  The Rules are amended twice

23     every year, and they never think of it, to inform me themselves, so I

24     always have to remind them and insist on it.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only change was the

Page 11756

 1     amendment of this Rule.

 2             We have no more witness for this week.  Let us hope that next

 3     week will be better, as good as it can.  I know that the Prosecution will

 4     do their level best, and the legal officer will let Mr. Seselj know as

 5     soon as we have further, more specific information.

 6             I wish you all a good evening.  We shall reconvene on Tuesday at

 7     8.30, since we work in the mornings.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of

10                           November, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.