Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11855

 1                           Wednesday, 19 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.33 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to everyone in and

10     around the courtroom.

11             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

12     Vojislav Seselj.

13             Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             This is Wednesday, November 19th, 2008, and I welcome our

16     witness.  I also welcome the many representatives from the OTP, as well

17     as their assistant.  I welcome Mr. Seselj, and I also welcome

18     Mr. Registrar, ushers, our court reporter and the interpreters in the

19     booths helping us.

20             We'll now continue with the cross-examination.  Could the

21     Registrar please tell me how much time is left.  I believe it must be --

22     Mr. Seselj still has 30 minutes, unless I'm wrong.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, so far Mr. Seselj has used 49

24     minutes, which leaves him another 40 minutes.  Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 11856

 1             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 2                           WITNESS:  VISNJA BILIC [Resumed]

 3                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:  [Continued]

 5        Q.   Mrs. Bilic, did you live in Zagreb from 1991 to 1995?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   If not as a civil servant, as a native of Zagreb, perhaps, did

 8     you hear that in the area of the fairgrounds in Velesajam in Zagreb,

 9     there was a camp for detained civilians?

10        A.   No, I don't know that.

11        Q.   Do you know that the existence of that camp was notified for the

12     first time to the public by Dr. Zarko Puhovski, the professor of

13     university and president of the Helsinki Council?

14        A.   No, I don't know about that, but from a few articles and press

15     releases.  I'm not familiar with any other information about it.

16        Q.   Well, if you are a ranking civil servant and have no information

17     about the existence of a camp for detained Serb civilians, through which

18     several thousand Serbs who lived in Zagreb had passed, then it doesn't

19     surprise me that you're not aware of the other 220 camps for Serbs in

20     Croatia.

21             Here again, Mr. Dutertre is jumping to his feet.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

23             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would ask Mr. Seselj to please

24     give us documents when he is quoting figures.  Otherwise, you know, he's

25     speaking without any references, and we have absolutely no way to know

Page 11857

 1     whether what he's saying is true or not.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj.  Yesterday, I

 3     told you, after the objection raised by the Prosecutor, that when you are

 4     submitting that you have such-and-such information, please also give us

 5     the source of this information.  Tell us this is a report from

 6     such-and-such professor, published on such-and-such date at such-and-such

 7     place, country, and so on, just so we have an idea and so we know that

 8     what you are saying might be backed by at least some kind of document,

 9     because if need be, the Trial Chamber could refer to this document; and

10     the Prosecutor could also refer to it if he has additional questions to

11     ask.  We're inviting you to do this.

12             Of course, you're not legally bound to disclose all these

13     documents to us.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the existence of

15     camps for Serb civilians from Zagreb in the area of the Zagreb Velesajam

16     fairgrounds is a notorious fact, has been notorious for more than a

17     decade.  The witness says she's not aware of it.  She may have read

18     something in the newspapers, but she doesn't know anything about it.  Her

19     answer is perfectly satisfactory to me.  It would be a problem for me if

20     she said, "Yes, I know that camp existed.  It was within the jurisdiction

21     of the Ministry of the Interior or the Ministry of Justice.  Our ministry

22     was not involved, but that thing existed," because all Zagreb natives and

23     locals know that it existed.

24             And now, Mr. President, to answer definitively to the objection

25     of Mr. Dutertre:  If I were Prosecutor in this trial, I would have called

Page 11858

 1     Savo Strbac, the president of the NGO Veritas, yesterday.  I have never

 2     met Savo Strbac in my life, but the Prosecution has been cooperating for

 3     years with Savo Strbac and his NGO, Veritas, and have received enormous

 4     quantities of material from them.

 5             If I were Prosecutor and if I had listened to the

 6     cross-examination yesterday, where the witness refers to information from

 7     NGO Veritas, I would have immediately contacted Veritas yesterday and

 8     asked, "Is this correct, is this true, is this accurate, can you give us

 9     the material?"  Why can't Mr. Dutertre address Mr. Milorad Buha,

10     president of the government of the Serbian Krajina in exile, because

11     Milorad Buha is a member of the Serb Radical Party and he would have

12     radically refused all contact with the OTP.  So it doesn't surprise me

13     that the Prosecution doesn't contact him.

14             But you tied my ears, you blindfold me, you shut my mouth, you

15     block visits from my advisers, communications with my associates, you

16     block all dispatches by fax; and now you want me to provide documents.

17     Why would I have to?  I have reliable information.

18             The Zagreb Velesajam fairgrounds was a camp through which several

19     thousand Serbs civilians from Zagreb had passed.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As to the latest allegations of

22     Mr. Seselj on his communications, I would like to refer to what

23     Mr. Mundis said yesterday extremely clearly regarding this issue.  As to

24     the rest, Mr. Seselj is mentioning Veritas; so if he wants to, it's up to

25     him to bring documents and present documents in order to help the Trial

Page 11859

 1     Chamber decide in an informed fashion.  If he wants to call this person

 2     for his Defence, he can do that.  You know, it's not up to the

 3     Prosecution to do this in his place.

 4             That's just a few observations I wanted to make.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Seselj, while you

 6     were talking, I was wondering maybe, you know, when you are asking for

 7     your -- were you're calling your witnesses, you might call this

 8     Savo Strbac, the director of this Veritas NGO.  It doesn't necessarily

 9     have to be an exculpatory witness, it can also be a context witness, you

10     know, somebody that is useful to help establish the truth.  You can

11     always call this witness if the Prosecutor decides it's not useful to

12     call him on his side.

13             But through your questions, you seem to indicate that there was a

14     detainee camp for Serbs in Zagreb.  The witness says she has no knowledge

15     of this, so please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then later she said she may

17     have read something in the newspapers, but nothing much.  That was

18     approximately her answer.

19             Mr. President, it is not up to me to prove anything here.  It is

20     my job to ask questions.  I have certain information, and I don't even

21     have to tell you what my sources are.  All I do is ask questions.  My

22     questions may be the most stupid questions in the world, but I have the

23     right to them.  I have that right, and I don't want to prove anything.

24     Let the Prosecution prove whatever they want.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are entitled to

Page 11860

 1     put questions, that's true.  That's a right that you have by the Statute.

 2     But I don't agree with you when you say that you're allowed to ask stupid

 3     questions or silly questions.  That's not true, because then, you know,

 4     the issue is to provide you with counsel, because a counsel will not ask

 5     silly questions.  If a counsel is asking stupid questions or silly

 6     questions, he's going to go against his code of ethics, and he might be

 7     penalized for that.  You don't -- you cannot be penalized, but you must

 8     ask questions for your Defence.  You're not here to waste our time.

 9             As such, I don't believe that your question was stupid, to know

10     whether Serbs were detained in Zagreb or not.  That is not fundamental

11     regarding this expert's competence and expertise, but it might provide us

12     with a general picture.  However, she gave you her answer.  Her answer is

13     what it was.  Now, you take note of the answer, and either you pursue the

14     topic or you move on to something else.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, just one sentence,

16     Mr. President.

17             If lawyers were really barred from asking stupid or idiotic

18     questions, I assure you 80 per cent of advocates would have to leave the

19     ICTY.  I don't want to name names, but I will -- in fact, I could give

20     you information about each one of them, and I could give you examples,

21     specific examples from transcript.

22             This threat that you will impose counsel on me doesn't bother me

23     anymore.  I'm completely indifferent to that.  You can't impose counsel

24     on me.  You can try me in absentia, and that's it.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I did not say that

Page 11861

 1     I was going to impose counsel on you.  All I said was that when an

 2     accused is actually asking only silly questions, then the issue is that

 3     the solution might be to impose counsel on the accused.  But here, we're

 4     in a different situation.  I never said that when you were asking this

 5     question about Serbs being detained in Zagreb, that this question was

 6     stupid.  I never said that.

 7             Please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  You have

 9     now assured me that I have not yet reached that degree.

10        Q.   Ms. Bilic, is it true a that your ministry, when it keeps records

11     of missing persons, keeps a unified record of all missing persons who are

12     citizens of Croatia, regardless of whether they disappeared?

13        A.   That is correct.  My ministry keeps a unified record of all

14     missing citizens, that is, nationals of the Republic of Croatia, who went

15     missing in relation to the war and whose families submitted a request for

16     tracing.

17        Q.   So what matters is for their families to submit a request?

18        A.   This submission of a request for tracing by family is one of the

19     basic criteria enabling a person to enter the category of missing

20     persons.

21        Q.   All right.  So this list of yours, this list of missing persons,

22     includes all Croat soldiers, regular Croatian soldiers, who as part of

23     regular units of the Croatian Army were involved in the war in 1993

24     against Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and who were involved in 1995

25     in the war against Serbs especially in the Serbian Krajina, if they had

Page 11862

 1     gone missing in those war activities?

 2        A.   It is the obligation, and that's in the decree of the government

 3     of the Republic of Croatia, it's the obligation of the Administration for

 4     Detainees and Missing Persons to search for all missing persons who went

 5     missing and who are citizens of Croatia, regardless of the location of

 6     their disappearance and the circumstances.  According to that single

 7     criterion and that principle, the Commission for Missing Persons in

 8     Belgrade, which also has lists of missing persons, includes soldiers of

 9     the JNA who went missing in Croatia, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or any

10     other place.  It is the obligation of the state to solve a case of its

11     missing citizen.

12             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no objection

13     regarding what is being said.  However, I heard something in French that

14     is not in the transcript, the fact that the research was done

15     independently of the ethnic background.  I heard that in French, and it

16     didn't come in the English translation.  Could we clarify this?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please specify this,

18     repeat exactly what you said regarding the ethnical background of the

19     people?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the Administration for Detainees

21     and Missing Persons searches for all missing citizens, regardless of

22     their origin, their nationality, their faith, and regardless of the side

23     they were on at the time of their disappearance.

24             Equally, the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons

25     searches for missing citizens, nationals of the Republic of Croatia who

Page 11863

 1     went missing in the war, regardless of whether they disappeared in the

 2     Republic of Croatia or, for example, there were cases of missing persons

 3     who went missing in the territory of Serbia and in the territory of

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5        Q.   Ms. Bilic, when Tudjman's regime was established, and that was

 6     sometime in May 1990, if my memory serves me well, shortly afterwards

 7     that regime enabled all Croats, regardless of where they were living, be

 8     it in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the US, or Canada, to obtain Croatian

 9     citizenship if they wished?

10        A.   I really don't know.

11        Q.   Well, you have to know about this.  Please don't tell me that you

12     don't know even this.  All Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina

13     participated in the elections of Croatia, both presidential and

14     parliamentary elections, and they have a special electoral unit in

15     diaspora?

16        A.   Yes, I know there is an electoral unit for the diaspora, but I'm

17     not aware that all Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina have the possibility

18     to participate in parliamentary elections in the Republic of Croatia.

19     But I know there is a special electoral unit for the diaspora.

20        Q.   How come I know about these things better than you do?  And all

21     these Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina who are citizens of the Republic

22     of Croatia, and they are -- they were included in the books of citizens

23     after the establishment of the Tudjman regime, if their family reports

24     their disappearance, they automatically come onto your list?

25        A.   I can tell you that with the Administration for Detainees and

Page 11864

 1     Missing Persons, we have records, and I may not be completely precise, of

 2     requests for tracing of about 60 persons who went missing in the

 3     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   Do you have a paper saying that?

 5        A.   Not with me, unfortunately.

 6        Q.   You don't have it even in this paper, do you?  And it's a very

 7     important piece of information, because I believe the number is higher

 8     than 60.

 9        A.   If you give me a little time to try to find an overview of

10     missing persons broken down by counties, which is part of the material I

11     provided, I am sure that in that overview there is an indication of the

12     number of persons who went missing outside the territory of Croatia.  So

13     we can establish the exact number.  Therefore, this figure does exist in

14     my -- in the additions to my report.

15        Q.   Unfortunately, I don't have time to give you that time.

16             Tell me this:  According to your official data, searches are

17     still going on for about a thousand or 1.100 people?

18        A.   At the time I made my report, 1.076 persons were still being

19     searched for.  Those were persons about whom information was collected in

20     the drive of 1994.  874 of them went missing in the Operation Storm,

21     which makes --

22        Q.   Let us look at it separately, because it's separate in your

23     report.  874 -- how many Serbs did you say went missing in Operations

24     Storm and Flash?

25        A.   In the military police Operations Flash and Storm, according to

Page 11865

 1     tracing requests submitted by the families of missing persons, thus

 2     according to the same criteria used by the ICRC, and the same criteria on

 3     the basis of which the lists of missing persons were compiled in 1991 and

 4     1992, at this time we have outstanding requests for tracing of 874

 5     persons.

 6        Q.   Well, I asked you about the 874, and you gave me a whole lecture

 7     to confirm that number.  And how many did you say there were missing

 8     persons in total until 1994 or as of 1994?

 9        A.   1.076 at the time I made my report.

10        Q.   How many of these are Serbs?

11        A.   Sixty-four, if I remember correctly.

12        Q.   Well, let it stand.  Let's assume it's correct.  So if you take

13     64 Serbs, it's 1.012 Croats and a few others, a few Czechs, Ukrainians

14     perhaps.  It doesn't matter.  But when you add this number of 64 to 874,

15     it's 938 missing Serbs, according to your official records.

16             Now, you are aware that according to official statistics, such as

17     the census of 1991, let's put aside the fact that I have grave doubts

18     about the validity of that 1991 census, there were about four and a half

19     million Croats living in Croatia?  Do you know how many?

20        A.   In 1991, as far as I know, according to the census, I think there

21     were less than four million people of Croatian nationality, but I really

22     have reservations about this.  This is not my area of expertise.

23        Q.   Never mind.  Even I don't know everything by heart.  Around four

24     million.  And how many Serbs, according to official statistics, in 1991?

25        A.   Again, take it with a grain of salt, but I suppose that it's

Page 11866

 1     500.000 to 600.000.

 2        Q.   According to official statistics, it's 580.000.  I usually round

 3     it off.  So there were seven to eight times more Croats than Serbs in the

 4     area of Croatia.  We'll ignore the category of Yugoslavs, which was a

 5     form of Serb mimicry or a way to express mixed marriages.

 6             But isn't it striking that if there were seven to eight times

 7     more Croats in Croatia than Serbs, and if from this figure, 1.012, we

 8     deduct the Croats who went missing in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 9     and we deduct the members of these ethnic minorities, according to your

10     official records an equal number of Croats as Serbs are still missing.

11     Isn't that striking?  Shouldn't that be proportionate to the population

12     numbers?  Try to answer it with a "yes" or "no" so we can move on.

13        A.   Well, this is such a complex question that I can't answer it with

14     a "yes" or "no."  It's impossible.

15             I'd like to emphasise two things here.  First, the data we are

16     talking about reflect the current situation, and the number of missing

17     persons of Serb and Croat ethnicity is much higher than the figures we

18     presented.  In fact, it was much higher than the figures we presented,

19     because such a large number of cases have been solved.

20             Just let me finish.  I find it very important to say the next

21     thing concerning the comparison and the proportions between various

22     categories of population, compared to the 1991 census.

23             Statistically, such a comparison would not be justified.  It

24     would not be justified.  But what would be justified would be to take

25     into account the number and ethnic composition in areas that were

Page 11867

 1     affected by the war, not the territory of the Republic of Croatia as a

 2     whole.

 3        Q.   Well, that's something else.  I fully understand you.  However,

 4     if the number of missing Croats was far higher than you managed to solve

 5     those cases, the number of missing Croats then corresponded to the number

 6     of Serbs reported, and many Serbian families didn't want to report that

 7     their family members were missing, well, could that mean that you were

 8     far more expeditious and diligent when it came to locating missing Croats

 9     than when it came to locating missing Serbs, or is something else at

10     stake?

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm sorry.  Let's -- before you answer the

12     question just put by Mr. Seselj, I'd like to clear up one thing with you,

13     because I think you started out by saying that the Administration for

14     Detainees and Missing Persons only registered Croatian nationals that had

15     gone missing; and now it seems that apparently Serbian missing persons

16     were also registered.  So I just want to be sure whether the authorities

17     of Croatia took upon themselves not only to register missing Croats, but

18     also registering persons of other ethnicities, like Hungarians, or Serbs,

19     or Bosnians.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Administration for Detainees

21     and Missing Persons kept records of all citizens of the Republic of

22     Croatia, regardless of their ethnicity.  So that included Croats, Serbs,

23     Hungarians, all the citizens of the Republic of Croatia who had gone

24     missing in the course of the war.  Records were kept regardless of their

25     nationality.  Records were kept on the basis of the same criteria.

Page 11868

 1             If I can now answer Mr. Seselj's question --

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, when you refer to the

 3     Republic of Croatia, are you talking about the republic that was part of

 4     the federal Yugoslav state or are you referring about the current

 5     republic and its current borders?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or is it the same?  It doesn't

 7     matter what she has in mind, since the borders are identical.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, things are quite clear

10     for me, but I believe that there may remain some level of doubt.

11             You talked about the way that people were registered as missing

12     persons, and you said that all Croatian nationals were registered,

13     without any distinction being made in terms of their ethnicity.  In other

14     words, the thousand Serbs mentioned by Mr. Seselj who went missing, these

15     Serbs were Croatian nationals, they were Serbs living in Croatia and

16     nationals of Croatia; is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Yes, that's what I

19     thought.

20             In order to try and save time, it appears, out of all the

21     questions put to you by the Defence, that as of today we have roughly the

22     same number of Croats missing as Serbs, so we would roughly be talking

23     about the same figure, 1.000 Serbs, 1.000 Croats; would you agree with

24     that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite possible at this point

Page 11869

 1     in time -- or, rather, it's quite possible right now that there are more

 2     missing Croats, that the difference in the numbers of Serbs and Croats

 3     missing is not that great right now.

 4             However, for the sake of being objective and to give you a full

 5     picture of the situation, I would like to point out that the number of

 6     individuals who were registered as missing in the Republic of Croatia,

 7     well, there were far more of them who were Croatian nationality than

 8     there were of Serbian nationality.  But at this point in time, as you

 9     said, these figures are very similar.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you now answer the

11     question Mr. Seselj put to you initially?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj said that the families

13     of missing Serbs didn't want to report the fact that family members of

14     theirs had gone missing to the Croatian authorities.  They didn't have to

15     do so.  They didn't have to report the fact to the Croatian authorities,

16     if they didn't want to.  But in such cases, the families would submit

17     requests to locate missing individuals to the International Red Cross.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not my question.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And all these requests to locate

20     them were entered into our records.  So even those families that did not

21     contact the Croatian authorities, if the missing family members were the

22     responsibility of the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons,

23     well, this administration would have them on their records.  It's

24     important.  One has to understand that these records were complete, they

25     were full.

Page 11870

 1             In addition to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the

 2     families --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   That has nothing to do with my question.  You're wasting my time.

 5     I wouldn't mind if you were wasting the Judges' time or the Prosecution's

 6     time, but you're wasting my time.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll move on to the second part of

 8     your question, because it was a conclusion.

 9             As far as your question is concerned, well, I can tell you that

10     last year and the year before that year, the Administration for Detainees

11     and Missing Persons has completed the process of locating an identical

12     number of individuals of Croatian nationality and individuals of Serbian

13     nationality.

14             However, until the time that we had information on missing

15     individuals of Serbian nationality, until that time, until we had good

16     information that would help us to find them, we couldn't solve the cases.

17     Since information has been obtained, since exhumations have been carried

18     out and body remains have been identified, well, since that time the

19     number of solved cases with regard to missing Croats is about identical

20     to the number of solved cases for missing Serbs.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Ms. Bilic, in the course of the proofing, you said that your

23     access to the archives within your ministry wasn't complete, wasn't full,

24     it wasn't unlimited.  There's a part of the archives that contains some

25     very sensitive information that you don't have access to; is that

Page 11871

 1     correct?

 2        A.   I said that I had almost unlimited access to the archives.

 3        Q.   But not unlimited access?

 4        A.   I don't even have to have totally unlimited access to the

 5     archives.  I have access to the part of the archives that's important for

 6     me, as the head of the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons.

 7        Q.   Tell me, what is it that is so sensitive, so confidential, that

 8     prevents you, as a high-ranking civil servant, from having access to such

 9     information, and Ivan Grujic, the Colonel Ivan Grujic, has access to

10     that?  He's now been promoted to the rank of brigadier general; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Well, as I have said, my access to the archives is mostly

13     unlimited.

14        Q.   Please answer my question.  What kind of material is so sensitive

15     that you don't have access to it?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

17             Witness, do not beat about the bush, please.  Apparently, during

18     the proofing session with the Prosecutor, you told him that you were not

19     able to have access to some sensitive archives.  Mr. Seselj took note of

20     that.  He's putting a question to you about this, and it's very

21     straightforward.  Were you allowed to have access to all of the archives,

22     or is it the case that you were not able to have access to some archives

23     that may have been off limits because they were classified and secret

24     archives?  Could you please very candidly about this?

25             You took the oath.  You said that you were going to tell the

Page 11872

 1     truth and nothing but the truth.  It's very important for us to know

 2     whether you had access to everything or only to part of the archives.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have access to the majority of

 4     documents contained in the archives.  I don't have access to some

 5     documents.  But it's not necessary for me to have access to such

 6     documents, given the work I do.  But since I don't have access to those

 7     documents, I don't know really know what the contents of those documents

 8     are.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a very simple case.

10             As part of your work, let's assume you want to have access to

11     documents related to the army.  Are you entitled to go to the Croatian

12     Ministry of Defence and have a look into their archives?  This is a very

13     specific question I'm asking you.  What do you have to answer?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not go to the Ministry of

15     Defence to familiarise myself with my -- with their archives, but there

16     can be an official request that can have a certain level of

17     confidentiality, in which I can explain the reasons for which I need

18     access to some parts of the archives.  And in such request, I can ask

19     them to provide me with the relevant documents.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a very specific

21     example.  Let's assume that a Serb family in Belgrade gets in touch with

22     the relevant administration, telling them, "We have a relative who

23     disappeared in Croatia.  He was detained in a camp run by the military."

24     You said that this would go through the ICRC and that you would then be

25     notified.  So you are notified of this particular case.  You are notified

Page 11873

 1     of the fact that this individual was detained in a military camp.  What

 2     do you do in such a case?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I submit a request to the relevant

 4     ministry for access with regard to the case in question.

 5             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Since you say that you don't know anything about the contents of

 7     the sensitive part of the archives that you don't have access to, well,

 8     since that's what you say, I will now provide you with information; and

 9     then tell me what you think about it.

10             The sensitive and confidential part of the archives, to which

11     only Colonel Ivan Grujic has access, contains information on the

12     exhumation of Serbs who were killed and who were located in 135 graves;

13     and it also contains information on how one artificially reduced the

14     number of victims in Pakracka Poljana and Malino Selo, for example.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

16             Mr. Dutertre.

17             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, for the following

18     reason.  The witness stated that since she did not have access to these

19     documents, obviously she has no idea what they are; so I do not quite see

20     how she could answer such a speculative question.

21             And, furthermore, we do not know how Mr. Seselj would be,

22     himself, aware of the nature of these documents.  This is a very

23     speculative question, and we have nothing telling us that these documents

24     are the ones described by Mr. Seselj.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've interrupted the accused

Page 11874

 1     as he was putting his question to the witness.  Let's wait for him to

 2     finish his question to decide whether it's a speculative question or not.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this isn't an ordinary

 4     witness who knows or doesn't know certain things.  This is an expert who

 5     has to know everything.  Not only does she have to know things that

 6     Mr. Dutertre doesn't know, but also things that I don't know.  One can

 7     ask this expert for her expert opinion.  This isn't a witness that

 8     speculates.  It's a witness that can reflect and think, and she thinks in

 9     a far better manner than Mr. Dutertre.  I'm quite happy about the way she

10     thinks.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please refrain from making

12     personal attacks against this or that person, but put your question to

13     the witness.  Your question may be relevant, but we need to know what it

14     is.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I'm just providing you with a few examples out of the 135 graves

17     in Pakracka Poljana and Malino Selo, which is in Western Slavonia, from

18     October 1991 up until March 1992.  Over 300 Serb civilians were killed,

19     and your ministry has reduced this number 15-fold, and secret information

20     on how many bodies were actually found is in the hands of Ivan Grujic and

21     no one else.  So the traces are lost of these others.

22             And for another example, when it comes to the exhumation of

23     Serbs, Serbian civilians who were shot in the Medak Pocket in 1986, and

24     then we have Gospic, where over 200 Serbs -- almost 200 Serbs were

25     killed.  The figure is slightly lower.  And you officially say that only

Page 11875

 1     11 Serbian bodies were exhumed there.  We're talking about Gospic now.

 2     That was in October 1991, roughly speaking.  That's when they were

 3     killed.

 4             And then we have cases in many other places.  One striking

 5     example is that many Serbian civilians were killed in Osijek, and

 6     Ivan Grujic was the local head of the State Security Service.  That's

 7     what it was called at the time.  First it was State Security and then the

 8     name was changed.  The bodies of Serbs, in September and December 1991,

 9     of Serbs who were killed in Sarvas and Paulin Dvor, near OsijekOsijek,

10     Your Honours, is on the eastern edges, the estuary of the Drava and

11     Danube.  The bodies of Serbs killed in Paulin Dvor and Sarvas were found

12     on Velebit in a place called Rizvanusa.  Are you familiar with this, with

13     the fact that the bodies of Serbs killed in Osijek were found on Velebit?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

15             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No, I thought that Mr. Seselj was

16     testifying.  I was expecting a question, but he has finally put a

17     question.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj has put a

19     question to you.  Please provide an answer, because we're dealing here

20     with the very heart of the matter.

21             The case of Mr. Seselj is that in your report, you give a number

22     of Serbs that were killed, and he's given us a series of examples to

23     illustrate the fact that according to him, many more Serbs were killed.

24             What do you have to answer?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my report, there is information

Page 11876

 1     on all individuals who were exhumed and identified, individuals who were

 2     also of Serbian origin.  I'm familiar with the exhumation on Rizvanusa.

 3     It's in my report as well.  And victims from Paulin Dvor were found

 4     there, 17 of them.  The institution I work in carried out the exhumation

 5     of the remains in Rizvanusa and identified the remains using the DNA

 6     method of analysis, and this institution organised the funeral of all

 7     those remains in accordance with their families' wishes.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Very well.  I appreciate what you did, but Osijek is at the

10     estuary of the river of Drava and Dunav; is that correct?

11        A.   More or less.

12        Q.   And Rizvanusa is on Velebit, to the west of Lika, in the western

13     part of Lika; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   And the distance, as the crow flies, is -- well, what would it

16     be, about 400 kilometres, perhaps more?

17        A.   Well, about 400 kilometres.

18        Q.   About 400 kilometres.  So someone from Osijek or Paulin Dvor and

19     Sarvas near Osijek transported the Serbian bodies to conceal them on

20     Velebit, which is very difficult to have access to; and the bodies were

21     found.  But the bodies of about 200 Serbs killed near Gospic still

22     haven't been found; is that correct?  The bodies of the Serbs killed in

23     Osijek were found when this suited the regime for political reasons,

24     because they wanted to deal with Branimir Glavas, who they didn't favour

25     for political reasons, although he was one of the main persons

Page 11877

 1     responsible for those eliminations.  But the bodies of the victims of

 2     military personnel who were in support of the regime haven't been found.

 3     So that's why some victims have been found and in other cases the bones

 4     found were destroyed.  Am I right in saying this?

 5             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is a compound question.

 6     Could it be divided up into a number of other questions?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a very long question,

 8     it's a very complex question, but let me summarise it.

 9             According to Mr. Seselj, the bodies of those were not following

10     the political line of the regime are found, but the bodies of the others

11     are not to be found.  What do you have to answer?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, in the question

13     put to me by Mr. Seselj, information on victims was mentioned,

14     information on victims of Serbian ethnicity, and this isn't supported by

15     the documents.

16             I'm not denying that people of Serbian ethnicity were killed,

17     but, however, in Gospic a grave was exhumed, a grave in which the remains

18     of 18 bodies were found.  In the Medak Pocket, another grave was exhumed

19     and the remains of 11 individuals were found there.  In Pakracka Poljana,

20     Mr. Seselj, in 1995 a grave was exhumed in which the remains of

21     19 individuals were found.  And this shows that the Croatian authorities,

22     the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons, carried out

23     exhumations wherever they established that there might be graves, and

24     this was regardless of the ethnic origins of the bodies of the people in

25     those graves.

Page 11878

 1             There was nothing done for political reasons when it comes to

 2     exhuming remains, body remains.  These remains were exhumed as soon as

 3     information was obtained about the possibility that there might be mass

 4     or individual graves at certain sites, and this was the case in all

 5     cases.

 6        Q.   But you don't know what the secret part of the archives in your

 7     ministry contains, the part of the archives you don't have access to.

 8     That's why your answer can't be complete.

 9             Please, could you tell me how much more time I have at my

10     disposal so that I can plan for my cross-examination?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will tell you shortly.  17

12     minutes.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Your ministry also became involved in the ideological process of

15     rehabilitating the Ustasha movement, and they became involved with

16     identifying it with a movement in the course -- the parties and movement

17     in the course of the Second World War.  You did this by exhuming the

18     remains of Ustashas who were killed in the Second World War, and you

19     buried them -- or they were buried again with certain honours; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   My ministry wasn't responsible for exhumations that date back to

22     the Second World War, exhumation of bodies killed in the Second World

23     War.  However, given a particular decision of the government of Croatia,

24     we were made responsible for exhuming certain remains, in technical

25     terms, in order to take permanent care of certain remains.  The

Page 11879

 1     administration did this whenever the government of Croatia issued such

 2     decisions.  And I'll repeat, this was done regardless of the ethnic

 3     origins of the victims concerned.

 4        Q.   Listen to me carefully now, please.  The independent state of

 5     Croatia, together with the Pavelic Ustasha regime, which acted as

 6     Hitler's satellite, sent 10.000 Ustasha volunteers to the Eastern Front

 7     as part of the so-called Croatian Legion.  The Croatian Legion was routed

 8     at Stalingrad and the majority of its members were killed there.  16

 9     Ustasha from that Croatian Legion died or were killed with a group of

10     Italian soldiers.

11             One division, more or less, was at the Eastern Front, and as the

12     Italian military authorities collected their victims or exchanged -- or

13     did an exchange for them and transported their remains to Rome, as they

14     did this, they also took with them the remains of 16 Ustasha and buried

15     them at the Roman cemetery, Cimitero Del Verano.

16             And you, Ms. Bilic, together with Ivan Grujic, in 2007, on the

17     20th of December, 2007, went to Rome to take possession of the remains of

18     these 16 Croatian soldiers, the remains that were in small boxes, and you

19     transported them to Croatia.  Religious rites were also performed on this

20     occasion; is that correct?  I have a document to this effect.  I'm

21     constantly being asked for documents, and I got this from the internet;

22     and I even have a photograph.

23             Mr. Dutertre has been provided with a copy.  Why doesn't he look

24     for it on the internet himself?

25             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what is the relevance

Page 11880

 1     of this question with respect to the case, as submitted to the Trial

 2     Chamber?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I explain what

 4     the relevance is?

 5             In Belgrade, in the center of town, at the new town cemetery,

 6     there's a special French military grave where several hundred French

 7     soldiers, who were killed in the First World War, were buried.  There is

 8     also a Soviet military grave there, and Russian soldiers who were killed

 9     in the Second World War, Russian soldiers fighting for the liberation of

10     Belgrade, they were buried there.  This cemetery is very beautiful, if we

11     can describe a cemetery in this way.  No one ever had the idea of moving

12     these French or Russian soldiers back to their homelands, because they

13     were buried in Belgrade with dignity.

14             Italy is a civilised country, and it has its own military grave.

15     Cimitero Del Verano is a cemetery which has a nice military grave.  16

16     Croatian soldiers, Ustashas, were also buried there.  They were killed at

17     the Eastern Front.  They happened to be with the Italian soldiers who

18     were killed, and they were transported there together.

19             And after so much time has passed, a government, which is very

20     similar to the Ustasha government from the Second World War, in terms of

21     its programme and ideology, has the idea of requesting that the remains

22     of 16 Ustasha be moved back from Rome to Croatia.  This tells us a lot

23     about the character of the government, about the ideology of the ministry

24     that Ms. Bilic currently works for.

25             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't see the relevance of this

Page 11881

 1     question.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Madam Bilic, he says you went

 3     to Rome, so what do you answer to this?  I mean, we are here dealing with

 4     the credibility of the witness, so what do you say to this?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see from my CV, in 2002

 6     I was appointed member of the Joint Commission for the Implementation of

 7     the Contract between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Italy,

 8     related to the casualties of World War II; and it is precisely on that

 9     basis, as a member of the Joint Commission, that I, together with other

10     members of that commission, was notified about the mortal remains of 16

11     citizens of the Republic of Croatia that the Republic of Italy brought to

12     Italy from Russia; and it was Italy that suggested we take over these

13     mortal remains because they were the remains of people originating from

14     Croatia.  So these were the conclusions of a joint commission established

15     by an agreement between two states, two governments, those of Croatia and

16     Italy, and it was the realisation of one of the conclusions of that

17     meeting.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   All right.  If you had already started to implement these

20     conclusions, did you exhume Italian citizens who were killed in the area

21     of Dalmatia towards the end of the war, when around 300.000 Italians were

22     killed or executed?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Madam Bilic, I

24     have a follow-up question.

25             It seems that contrary to what Mr. Seselj is stating, it is not

Page 11882

 1     Croatia who went to get the 16 mortal remains, but it is upon a request

 2     by Italy that you actually went there.  The Italians initiated the

 3     transfer.  Obviously, this is what you're saying on page 27, line 4.  And

 4     you can this within the framework of an agreement between Italy and

 5     Croatia.  It seems to me it was the Italians that said, "We have 16

 6     bodies.  Please come and get them."  Is that the way it occurred, or is

 7     it Croatia who said, "We know that there are 16 Croat nationals buried in

 8     Rome, and we would like the mortal remains of these 16 people"?  Who

 9     initiated the whole proceeding?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The notification on the mortal

11     remains of these 16 persons was received from the Italian side, and it

12     was their proposal that the Republic of Croatia take over these mortal

13     remains, which was done.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             Mr. Seselj, contrary to what you are stating, obviously the

16     witness is saying the opposite of what you're stating.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's her job to say the

18     opposite of what I'm saying, Mr. President.  And when she's not able to,

19     she will go on spinning her yarn.

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we're not here to

21     try Croatia or to try the ideology of Croatia and so forth.  I really do

22     not see the relevance of this line of questioning.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sometimes, to be quite frank,

24     Madam Lattanzi, I forget who is on trial here, because looking at all the

25     witnesses who have been here, and the evidence led, it always seems to me

Page 11883

 1     that I'm the Prosecutor here and the representatives of the OTP are

 2     actually defending the interests of my Serbian opponents in the past

 3     civil wars.

 4             But let me use the few remaining minutes.

 5        Q.   Do you know, Ms. Bilic, that between 1991 and 1995 --

 6             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is totally unacceptable.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that

 8     personally, I really hate the Prosecution attacking Defence or Defence

 9     attacking the Prosecution.  We're here to try and find out what happened.

10             We have a report which was drafted by an expert witness.  This

11     report is challenged by -- at least some of the aspects of this report

12     are challenged by the Defence, and credibility of the author of the

13     report is also challenged.  And the Judges need to know whether the data

14     included in the report is reliable.  We need to know that in order to

15     draw our conclusions.

16             So I'm asking Mr. Seselj and the Prosecution to focus on what is

17     in the indictment, and only on what is in the indictment.

18             Continue, Mr. Seselj.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Ms. Bilic, here come a few easier questions, so relax.

21             Do you know that between 1991 and 1995, on several occasions

22     there were negotiations between the representatives of the government of

23     the Serbian Krajina and the government of the Republic of Croatia on

24     mutual exchanges of the dead; do you know that?

25        A.   I know that in that period between 1991 and 1995, there were

Page 11884

 1     negotiations that discussed, among other things, deliveries and

 2     hand-overs of mortal remains.

 3        Q.   Do you know that only in one case, in 1994, the Croatian

 4     authorities turned over to the authorities of Serbian Krajina 70 Serbian

 5     civilians, that is, bodies of Serbian civilians who had been exhumed in

 6     the territory of Zagreb in 1994?  Were you familiar with that?

 7        A.   No, I was not.

 8        Q.   And do you know that at these meetings, they also agreed about

 9     exchanging living civilians?  For instance, the government of the Serbian

10     Krajina would look through the lists and search for detainees in Croatian

11     camps, and Croatian authorities would look for their own nationals

12     detained by Serbian authorities?  Do you know there have been such

13     exchanges of civilians?

14        A.   I know there had been negotiations on exchanges, and there were

15     exchanges of persons held by one or the other side.

16        Q.   Thank you for this brief answer.  Do you know that the competent

17     commission of the Republic of Croatia, led by Ivan Grujic, participated

18     also in exchanges between the warring sides in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19     Those were exchanges of prisoners, exchanges of bodies, and exchanges of

20     detained civilians.

21        A.   I know about that, and the then Commission for Detainees and

22     Missing Persons was involved in the exchanges of prisoners and takeovers

23     of mortal remains when the persons involved were from the Republic of

24     Croatia.

25        Q.   But there have also been detained civilians who were actually

Page 11885

 1     treated as hostages.  One side would detain a certain number of civilians

 2     from the other side, and the other side would detain the same number, and

 3     then they bargain about an exchange?

 4        A.   In exchanges of civilians in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I actually

 5     can't think of a single case.

 6        Q.   But you do have information about exchanges of civilians between

 7     the Serbian Krajina and Croatia?

 8        A.   Well, I know, for instance, in the prison in Knin, there were

 9     villages of Marinovici, there were indisputably civilians.  I know of

10     several such cases where civilians were held in prison and were

11     exchanged, because they had been in prisons in Beli Manastir, Knin,

12     Glina, a whole series of locations.

13        Q.   But civilians on the opposite side, that is, your side, had also

14     been held in prisons or improvised prisons, camps.  You did not open --

15     make an announcement in the newspapers for Serbian civilians to come up

16     and then be exchanged for Croats held in Serbian Krajina?

17        A.   This is a very leading question, and I cannot answer it this way.

18        Q.   But I'm entitled to leading questions, aren't I?  You know that,

19     do you?

20             Why am I asking that?  Because Berislav Pusic, for instance, is

21     on trial here, who as representative of Herceg-Bosna participated in

22     exchanges of prisoners, civilians, and detainees; whereas Colonel

23     Ivan Grujic is not on trial anywhere for exchanges of civilians.  That is

24     against the law, because civilians cannot be taken as hostages, according

25     to international law, and even Ivan Grujic was involved in taking

Page 11886

 1     civilians hostages and even exchanging them for the other side.

 2        A.   As I said in my earlier answers, people were exchanged when they

 3     had been held by one or the other side.  Concerning the Republic of

 4     Croatia, I said very explicitly that I know not of a single case of

 5     exchanges of civilians with Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the then

 6     Commission and now Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons was

 7     involved.  So these claims that Colonel Grujic had been involved in the

 8     taking of hostages and exchanging of civilians are not correct, are not

 9     accurate.

10        Q.   Colonel Grujic confirmed in the Milosevic trial, the Mrksic

11     trial, and other trials, I believe, Martic included, that he had been

12     involved in negotiating such exchanges; and I have information, for

13     instance, that he had personally been in Livno for one round of such

14     negotiations, and you don't know that?

15        A.   If you tell me approximately at what time this happened --

16        Q.   The transcript only mentions negotiations in Livno, but

17     unfortunately even I don't know the date, because the Prosecution had to

18     give me the transcript of the examination of Ivan Grujic.  He had been

19     planned as an expert witness here, but he was so badly compromised that

20     they had to switch.  That's why you were so hastily taken as his

21     replacement.  You know that, don't you?  Do you know that?

22        A.   As for Colonel Grujic having been supposed to testify, I think

23     that's the question you should ask the Prosecution.

24        Q.   All right.  But you were produced here with such haste, as

25     Grujic's replacement, that you had to write your expert report in great

Page 11887

 1     haste, and from the last expert report of Ivan Grujic, you copied the

 2     entire passages.  I took the trouble of actually reading them and

 3     comparing them both, and underlining the passages that were copied.

 4        A.   I did not prepare my report in haste.  I had ample time.  It is a

 5     fact that the text of Deputy Minister Grujic is largely identical to the

 6     text of the report that I sent to the OTP, which is both justified and

 7     expected, because the report describes the methodology of our work, the

 8     results, and the status of our records.  If you take that into account,

 9     it would be very odd if the reports were different.

10        Q.   Reports cannot differ significantly in figures and data.  But if

11     you take whole sentences and paragraphs, then that would be plagiarizing,

12     because Grujic's report is his author work and yours is yours.  But I

13     found whole passages pasted from Grujic's report in your report.  That's

14     plagiarism.  Is that punishable in Croatia?  In Serbia, you could be

15     sentenced to prison.  If you copied somebody's intellectual product and

16     published it, that is approximately the legal provision, you would be

17     sentenced to up to one year imprisonment.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Bilic, I'm not talking

19     about plagiarism here, but when the OTP commissioned you to draft this

20     expert report, I guess that you had asked for Mr. Grujic's report, and

21     you drafted your own report using Mr. Grujic's report as a base.  Is this

22     what you did?  Did you read Mr. Grujic's report beforehand?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.  I compiled my

24     report based on the report of the deputy minister, Colonel Grujic, and

25     all the passages that remain unchanged, that is, those that relate to

Page 11888

 1     organisational aspects, the collection of information on missing persons,

 2     exhumations and identification, all those passages that are identical

 3     have been mostly taken over, as such, and put in my report.  There was no

 4     need to change them because, as I said, they describe our methodology of

 5     work.  All the new questions that the Prosecution included and asked me

 6     to cover in my report are there.  All the data has been updated and

 7     included.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have two

 9     minutes left.

10             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   But in that case, Ivan Grujic is your co-author, at least, which

12     gives me the right to cross-examine him as well as you.

13             Here, I found one page of the transcript in the Mrksic trial

14     where Colonel Grujic confirms.  That's page 10312, where Colonel Grujic

15     confirms he had participated in exchanges of civilians between Croatia

16     and Serbian Krajina and between the warring sides in Bosnia.

17             That is information that I wanted to put to you, but I have no

18     further questions, Ms. Bilic?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

20             Mr. Dutertre, any redirect?

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'll try to be as short as

22     possible.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, because we have a break at

24     10.00.  It would be good to finish by 10.00, because we have another

25     witness waiting.

Page 11889

 1             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] To come back to this report, Ms. Bilic, you were

 4     based yourself on an internal document drafted by Mr. Grujic in order to

 5     write your report; is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And you base yourself on the same statistical data; right?

 8        A.   Correct, the same records, the same statistics, the same forms,

 9     because it's all about the methodology of work.

10        Q.   You told us that you updated the data, and as far as the rest is

11     concerned, some information was not updated, but it was information that

12     didn't have to change, but you checked the veracity of this --

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   This information was actually exact and true?

15        A.   That information was correct, was accurate, and they reflect the

16     state of records in the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons

17     and the work processes that the administration is engaged in.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us the distance between Velebit

19     Mountains and Vukovar?

20        A.   450, perhaps 500 kilometres.  I'm not sure.

21        Q.   Very well.  Regarding the seven non-identified persons among the

22     Ovcara victims, page 11832-11834 of today's transcript, you were asked

23     some very speculative questions, so I'll do the same.

24             So is it possible that the relatives of these people could live

25     in Croatia and had not been -- had not heard about this information,

Page 11890

 1     collection campaign, or could it be that these people come from Croatia,

 2     but actually had no relatives, and that's why no one actually identified

 3     these seven bodies, because actually no one claimed them?

 4        A.   It's also possible that they did not have any family members who

 5     would look for them, that entire families were dead, or perhaps they did

 6     not have enough relevant family members or next of kin that DNA analysis

 7     would be possible.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Next item, and it was at page 11, line 14 and 15, in

 9     today's transcript.  This proportion of ethnicity, proportion of

10     ethnicity.  Could you confirm that among the exhumed people for which the

11     identity was established that 87 per cent of them were Croats?  This was

12     in document 7362 of the 65 ter list that we saw yesterday.  87 per cent.

13        A.   Correct.  87 percent of identified persons are of Croat

14     ethnicity.

15        Q.   Now let's talk about the people who were still gone missing.  I'm

16     having a hard time tracking all this, but I'm sure Mr. Seselj won't blame

17     me for this.

18             We have document 761 in the first binder, the blue binder.  Could

19     you please take a look at this document.  In this document, there is

20     mention of the 1.076 people who are still gone missing.

21             I repeat the number of the document, 7361 [Realtime transcript

22     read in error, "761"] in the first binder, the blue binder.  The "3" is

23     still missing, 7361.

24             So in this document, on the sixth page in the English version, we

25     have the nationality of the people gone missing of these 1.076 people

Page 11891

 1     that have gone missing, and we can note that 87 are Croats.  Do you

 2     confirm this figure, that there are only 64 Serbs among these people gone

 3     missing?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   The English transcript does not reflect what I heard in my

 6     headset in French.  Could you please repeat your answer, Ms. Bilic?

 7        A.   I said that was correct.  87 per cent of missing persons are of

 8     Croat ethnicity, and among the missing persons there are 64 Serbs.

 9        Q.   Now, quickly and in order to supplement the questions that we

10     mentioned this morning on page 7 and 8, and yesterday, page 11834 of the

11     transcript, so if a French family, a Serb family, an Italian family,

12     inquires with the Administration of Missing Persons, saying, "This

13     persons disappeared on the territory of Croatia between 1991 and 1995,"

14     could you tell us exactly what you would do after having obtained this

15     inquiry from this family?

16        A.   We will receive a tracing request if it's within the jurisdiction

17     of the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons.  And if it is

18     not, in that case we would tell the family to approach the ICRC.

19        Q.   One last question.  Yesterday, page 11842 to 11845 in the

20     transcript, you were asked a question on the Serb detainees in Croatia,

21     and we mentioned this again today.  Your report has little information on

22     the detainees held by Croat authorities during the conflict, but is it

23     because this is -- this comes under the aegis of another ministry, for

24     example the Ministry of Defence, and has its own information; and you're

25     not in charge of collecting this information?  Or is it a deliberate

Page 11892

 1     choice to have decided not to address this question in your report?

 2        A.   As we can see from the decrees of the Republic of Croatia

 3     government, governing issues of detainees and missing persons, the

 4     Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons is not in charge of

 5     keeping records of persons who were in the hands of the Republic of

 6     Croatia authorities.  It's the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of

 7     Defence, not our ministry, that are in charge.

 8             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             No further questions, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we have just completed

11     your testimony.  On my behalf and on behalf of my colleagues, I would

12     like to thank you for having come to testify for the Prosecution in this

13     case in relation to missing persons who are victims of the conflict of

14     the former Yugoslavia.  I wish you a safe trip home.

15             The usher will now escort you out of the courtroom, and thus

16     you'll be able to take your plane home.

17             We're going to have a 20-minute break now.  After that break,

18     we'll have the following witness.

19             With respect to the documents, Mr. Dutertre, the documents you

20     offered into evidence, you've already listed them yesterday?

21             MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, but we have to add 65 ter

22     document 7361.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will rule in

24     writing about these documents.

25             We'll have a 20-minute break, and we'll resume then with the

Page 11893

 1     following witness.  The Prosecution will have one hour to examine the

 2     witness, and Mr. Seselj one hour to cross-examine him.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.22 a.m.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 8             Please state your first name, last name, and date of birth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Katica Paulic, the 1st of April,

10     1956.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have a profession, an

12     occupation?  If so, which one is it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am now an employee in the company

14     called Elektrocontact.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before

16     a court about the events that took place in the former Yugoslavia, or is

17     it the first time you're going to testify about this?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the first time today.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Please read the

20     solemn declaration the usher is going to show to you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  KATICA PAULIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  You may

Page 11894

 1     be seated.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me give you some

 4     explanation.

 5             You will answer questions put to you by Mr. Ferrara, whom you've

 6     probably met as part of preparation of your testimony.  Mr. Ferrara will

 7     ask you questions and show you a number of documents.  If necessary, the

 8     Judges will also put questions to you.  Mr. Seselj, who is the accused in

 9     this case, will also put questions to you as part of the

10     cross-examination.  That's the way we are going to proceed.

11             I'm not sure whether we'll be able to complete your testimony

12     today.  Barring any incidents, this should be possible, but we also may

13     have to continue with your testimony tomorrow morning.  I can't tell you

14     anything at this stage.

15             I'm trying not to waste any time at all, and I'm immediately

16     going to give the floor to Mr. Ferrara.  He has one hour to examine you.

17             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             I want to point out that the witness has some health problems, so

19     maybe it's possible that she will ask to break or something if she feels

20     not well.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I was not aware that

22     you had health problems.  If you feel unwell at any time, raise your hand

23     and ask for the hearing to be adjourned.  But it's up to you, of course.

24             MR. FERRARA:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Examination by Mr. Ferrara:

Page 11895

 1        Q.   Ms. Paulic, when were you born, and how long did you live there?

 2        A.   I was born on the 1st of April, 1956, and I lived there

 3     permanently up until 1992.

 4        Q.   Where?

 5        A.   In Hrtkovci.

 6        Q.   What's your ethnicity?

 7        A.   I am a Croat.

 8        Q.   Where do you currently live?

 9        A.   I live in Zagreb, where I exchanged my house.  That's where I

10     exchanged a house.

11        Q.   What was your occupation and employment in Hrtkovci?

12        A.   I was involved in agricultural labour for a while, until we built

13     a house, and then I opened up my own shop in my very own house.  So I ran

14     a shop.

15        Q.   What was the ethnic makeup of Hrtkovci in 19 -- until 1992?

16        A.   Up until 1992, well, briefly, I would put it like this:  It was

17     super.  There was no stress.  We got on well.  We had lunch at each

18     other's places.  We celebrated Easter and Christmas, et cetera, together.

19     Everything was excellent.

20        Q.   So can you give us an estimate of the different ethnic group in

21     Hrtkovci at that time?

22        A.   At the time, there were a lot of Croats, Hungarians.  They had

23     been there for a long time because the village is an old one.  There were

24     Hungarians and Germans.  The Germans were expelled, the Hungarians stayed

25     on.  Serbs from Slavonia moved in.  Bosnians and Dalmatians moved in.

Page 11896

 1     People from Lika moved in.  They were all in the minority.  Croats were

 2     the majority, and there were somewhat fewer Hungarians than there were

 3     Croats.

 4        Q.   You say that everything was excellent.  When -- this relationship

 5     changed, and when?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   When did this change?

 8        A.   Well, the relationship started changing when the war broke out in

 9     Croatia.  Shortly afterwards, after Vukovar, people from Slavonia started

10     arriving, various strangers started arriving in the village.  They acted

11     in a disruptive manner in the village.  They made everyone nervous.

12     That's when things started.

13        Q.   When did you start hearing people talking about ethnic cleansing?

14        A.   Well, since I ran a shop, my neighbour who lived across the road,

15     Slavko Mirazic, who was a calm boy, to tell you the truth; but he started

16     spreading rumours according to which the Croats didn't know what was

17     waiting for them, that there would be ethnic cleansing, and then he had a

18     list of those who would be leaving.  Those were the words used, and

19     that's the first I heard about it.

20        Q.   What was the ethnicity of this Slavko Mirazic?

21        A.   A Serb, a Serb.  Both his father and mother were Serbs.

22        Q.   Did he belong to any political party?

23        A.   Yes.  He would always boast that he belonged to Seselj parties,

24     that he knew him.

25        Q.   How do you know he belonged to this party?  He told you?

Page 11897

 1        A.   That's what he said, yes.  He said that.  He would come to my

 2     shop, and he used those very words.

 3        Q.   You say that as the war was spreading in Croatia, there was

 4     this -- the refugees start -- people from East Slavonia start to arrive

 5     in your village.  How many refugees would you estimate arrived in

 6     Hrtkovci in 1992?

 7        A.   Well, look, it's very difficult to give you a number, because

 8     this occurred on a daily basis.  They would move around in groups.  There

 9     would be four or five of them together, sometimes ten of them together,

10     sometimes four of them in a group.  It depended on the kind of groups

11     they formed, but this was a daily and continual occurrence.

12        Q.   Were they organised in some way or they arrived on initiative --

13     their initiative?

14        A.   I believe that they were organised, because initially they moved

15     around.  Well, they were most interested in large houses, to start with.

16     They weren't really interested in small houses.  They were interested in

17     large houses, and that's where they would go.  That's what they would

18     attack.  I can provide you with a few examples.

19             They'd come to me, and I also know the lady across the road, not

20     exactly across the road; but to my right there was an old granny who

21     lived there.  Her son was in Germany, and naturally a new house was

22     built.  It was a new house full of everything, lots of tools.  There was

23     lots of furniture and other things in the house.  The old lady died and

24     the son remained in Germany.  The son had to sell the house.  He sold the

25     house to a man and woman who also lived abroad, and they would come,

Page 11898

 1     well, occasionally.  They'd spend a few days in the house.  They returned

 2     to Hungary, a bit of the weekend remained.  At the time the Serbs

 3     arrived, they moved into the house.  They did that overnight.  They

 4     opened the house up and they moved in.

 5             Someone reported this to the couple.  They told them that people

 6     had moved into the house.  They returned then.  The lady reported the

 7     fact to the police there, and she wasn't able to achieve anything through

 8     this means.  She came to my shop and she told me that she was looking for

 9     a few dresses.

10        Q.   When did it happen, this event?

11        A.   Before Seselj arrived.

12        Q.   When did Seselj arrive in Hrtkovci, just to have a clear idea?

13        A.   That was when these people were involved in the attacks.  That's

14     what I'm talking about.  She literally asked me to let her go to the

15     toilet, to let her use my toilet, because she couldn't enter her own

16     house, and she didn't gain access to her house.

17        Q.   Were these Serb refugees viewing only houses or other people in

18     Hrtkovci or businesses as well, like shops or factories?

19        A.   That's correct.  I had my shop, my own shop.  Naturally,

20     Zdenko Barisic also had his own shop.  He also worked in the local

21     commune as a secretary in the local commune.  The case was the same for

22     him.  The people who were called out, well, they were all in power.

23             But people were interested in large houses.  My uncle has a

24     small, miniature house, so he wasn't affected.  But we were, because we

25     had big houses.  When I say "a big house," I don't know what you consider

Page 11899

 1     to be a big house, but they were big houses.

 2        Q.   Did you receive any visit from any of the refugees in your shop?

 3        A.   Oh, yes, many.

 4        Q.   When, and what they told you?

 5        A.   It was like this:  When you enter the shop, there was a sort of

 6     storage space to the left.  They would sometimes open it up and say,

 7     "Well, it's good, that could be ours."  They said it's better to go there

 8     with a bag.  They used a local word for "bag."  They said, "It's better

 9     for you to go out like this than leave with a bag in your hand."  Well,

10     that, in effect, meant you should leave, you should go.

11             I could go on about these people for an entire day, but I'll

12     select a number of examples.

13             There was someone called Jovo.  He was tall, wore a beard, and he

14     would bring these people in.  And on one occasion, he appeared on his

15     own.  I remember that well.  It's as if it happened yesterday.  It was on

16     a Sunday.  I was working on my own.  My employee had the day off.  I was

17     working there alone.  There was a long queue.  When I saw him, I was

18     afraid, naturally.  I served the customers, I don't know how.  It doesn't

19     even matter.  When it was his turn, I mustered all my courage and briefly

20     asked him, "How can I help you?"  He was a customer, but I knew why he

21     was there.  He said he wasn't going to buy anything.  He said the

22     following:  He said, "Madam, I admit that I'm bringing other people in

23     here to exchange houses.  You should leave your house.  Well, I have a

24     house in Zagreb, so it would be better for you to go to ZagrebZagreb

25     is the capital," and so on and so forth.  He said I should go to Zagreb.

Page 11900

 1     I then mustered all my courage, or the courage just appeared of its own

 2     accord, and then I told him quite clearly and loudly, "What kind of a man

 3     are you?  Look at yourself.  You have come here to expel me and to talk

 4     to me.  Go and see my husband."  My husband was in the center.  "Go and

 5     see him," I told him, "and speak to him about this."  And he really did

 6     go away, and he found my husband, and he told my husband, "Your wife is

 7     someone to be reckoned with.  She expelled me."

 8             There were other incidents.  On one occasion, my employee was

 9     working there.  I'd gone to town to pay something in the bank, to pay

10     some bills.  My husband went away to collect some goods, because he was

11     working with me at the time.  The shop was doing well.  The employee was

12     also working.  Then a group attacked the shop, another group attacked the

13     door, the door that I used to enter my house.  They wanted to come in.

14     They swore a bit.  We're talking about a married woman, and when I say

15     they swore a bit, they cursed.  This married woman, she wanted to defend

16     herself.  They told her, "What do you know?"  Her younger son is in the

17     ZNG.  The ZNG didn't even exist there, how can a child who goes to the

18     seventh class and is 14 years old be a member of the ZNG?  She didn't

19     allow this to happen.  She quickly contacted her husband and told him to

20     come.  She said that there was some strangers there.  That's what we

21     called them.  He appeared.  They left, and they said they would be back,

22     but they probably saw him and didn't return.

23        Q.   Did you -- did you receive any phone calls concerning the threats

24     that --

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 11901

 1        Q.   Can you describe?  Can you describe?

 2        A.   I can, I can.  Since I use the phone a lot because of the shop,

 3     well, it was early evening I left the receiver -- well, it might be

 4     difficult to describe this for you because you are not familiar with the

 5     Zagreb dialect and Serbian dialects; but I'll explain this for you.  I'll

 6     quote this person.  He said, "Look after your child, take care of your

 7     child.  We'll come now."  But in Serbia, they say, "Look after your

 8     child."  "Dete" is the word used, not "dijete," "because we'll come now."

 9     Again, I mustered my courage and I said, "Come, come, just you come and

10     we'll see."  What else could I have said?

11             But he threatened me -- this is an assumption of mine, not a

12     conclusion; but I think he threatened to do something to my younger

13     child, because he was in the seventh grade, and the older child was not

14     staying at home.  I told my husband about what had occurred.  He reported

15     it to the police, and the police said, "What can we do?  You should

16     disconnect the phone."  He said, "I can't disconnect the phone.  We need

17     the phone."  My husband said then, "I'll deal with this person."  And the

18     police said, "Well, in that case, we'll organise a patrol."  That's what

19     they did when they were concerned, but when we were concerned, it didn't

20     matter.

21             That's how things happened.

22        Q.   Did you hear about people receiving similar threats over the

23     telephone or otherwise?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Who were these people?  What ethnicity were these people?

Page 11902

 1        A.   All the Croats and the Hungarians, all the Croats.  There were

 2     some good Serbs, too, some very good ones.  I'd single out some of the

 3     good ones, the best ones.  A lot of time has passed, but there was the

 4     head of the school, Trifunovic, and there was Dobroslav Markovic.  He is

 5     married to a Croat, but this didn't mean anything to him.  He was an

 6     exceptionally good man.  And there were others.

 7             I'll repeat what I have said.  You just can't imagine how

 8     beautiful the relationship was between members of all ethnic groups.

 9     This isn't something one taught our children.  We didn't teach our

10     children that someone was a Hungarian, while others were Serbs and so on.

11             I'm partly a Hungarian, my mother is a Hungarian.  But as far as

12     the Serbs are concerned, my -- all the same, are also baptized a Serbian

13     child.  We had lunch in each other's houses.  We would celebrate

14     festivities.  They would come and celebrate Easter and Christmas with us,

15     and so on and so forth.

16        Q.   Were some people targeted more than others, and for which reason

17     if "yes"?

18        A.   What do you mean?

19        Q.   You say that they were looking for big houses, not for small

20     houses.  Were the most healthy people, people in the village, targeted

21     with these threats more than other people?

22        A.   Correct, that's certain.

23        Q.   Did you speak with the Serb refugees?  How did they describe the

24     reason for arriving in Hrtkovci?

25        A.   I'll just give you an example.  Someone came to the shop.

Page 11903

 1     Sometimes my husband would replace me.  As I'm a woman, I would have to

 2     do my duties as a woman.  He replaced me, and he asked the gentleman why

 3     he had come there, what the reason was.  And he said "Well, because they

 4     have promised us that this will be Serbia, that it will all be ours."

 5     And my son doesn't want to learn Cyrillic -- rather, I apologise, doesn't

 6     want to learn the Latin script.  My son wants to learn to write by using

 7     the Cyrillic script, not the Latin script.

 8        Q.   You say that some of these events happened before the arrival of

 9     Vojislav Seselj in Hrtkovci.  Did you attend the rally on the 6th of May,

10     1992?

11        A.   Yes, I did.  I'm a curious being.  I did.

12        Q.   Why did you go there?

13        A.   Well, look, I was curious.  I wanted to see what this man wanted.

14     I don't know whether you can understand this.  Everything was wonderful

15     and peaceful, and now someone wants to destroy this.  Why?  Well, let's

16     see why, let's hear what the reason is for this.

17             In the morning, I opened up my shop.  Since I was to work the

18     first shift, I opened the shop.  Well, it's difficult for me to be

19     precise.  I'm a woman, so I can't be very precise, you know.  But about

20     300 metres from my house, there's a road, and they had constructed a kind

21     of stage by using tractor-trailers.  I don't know whether you can imagine

22     this, but that was the stage.  They started singing Serbian songs, which

23     I hadn't heard before.  So these songs were being sung.  I was somewhat

24     surprised.  Why were they suddenly singing these songs?  We couldn't

25     understand this.  Very briefly, we didn't understand that such things

Page 11904

 1     would happen.  They started singing Serbian songs.

 2             Initially, I didn't want to go there.  What does he want, what's

 3     he playing at now, what's he up to, et cetera; so that's how I reacted.

 4     And then in the end, out of curiosity, I said, "To hell with it, I'm

 5     going to go and see what he has to say."

 6        Q.   Was anyone escorting or accompanying Mr. Seselj?

 7        A.   Well, when I came close to the stage, I heard huge applause, and

 8     I told myself, ah, there he is, he's arrived.  He was already on the

 9     stage.  Around him, to his left, to his right, there were people.  He was

10     not alone on the stage.  And as I was coming closer and closer to him, I

11     was horrified, because I was seeing in the flesh what I had never seen

12     before.  And I must say it was horrible.

13        Q.   What did you see?

14        A.   I saw his army.  Those were people, his troops, all in black,

15     black like this frame of this monitor, dressed in black from head to toe.

16     They had ammunition belts across their chests, hanging from one shoulder

17     and another.  They had rifles.  Of course, I can't tell you the type of

18     rifle, because I don't know anything about that.  They had Serbian-style

19     traditional peasant hats, and they had something I saw for the first time

20     in my life; and it was horrific to me, those cockades on their caps.  And

21     from those hats and cockades, I knew it was the Serbian Army.  I knew it

22     was not the regular army, because I recognised the regular army.  And to

23     me, those people were frightening, horrible.

24        Q.   You say that Seselj was not alone on the stage.  Did you

25     recognise anybody who was on the stage with Mr. Seselj?

Page 11905

 1        A.   Yes, I knew that person who said his son shall not learn the

 2     Latinic script.  His name was Zelic.  I knew him, and this Zelic was

 3     standing to the left of Seselj.

 4        Q.   He's the same man that came to your shop; am I right?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, because he was close to the house.  His parents had

 6     taken over one house that was close to mine, and he came there often.

 7        Q.   So when you arrived, Mr. Seselj had already begun his speech,

 8     because you say that you heard an applause?

 9        A.   There was a speech, and then he began.

10        Q.   Can you describe, to the best of your recollection, exactly what

11     Mr. Seselj said in his speech?

12        A.   Well, the first thing he said, and it was strange to me that he

13     was addressing only to brother Serbs and sister Serbs - that was not the

14     usual way people addressed the locals.  We use the old-fashioned way,

15     "Hello, comrades."  And as long as he was saying "brother and sister

16     Serbs," there must have been an intention behind it.

17             As to what he said, he issued threats that we had to leave.  Then

18     he was talking about politics again, that we had to leave, we had to free

19     up the jobs.

20        Q.   When you say "we," what do you mean?

21        A.   We, we who have jobs, we Croats.  We Croats, at the end of the

22     day, Croats and some Hungarians.

23        Q.   Please continue with a description of the speech.

24        A.   That we had to go, that we had to vacate our jobs, that these

25     people who had newly arrived needed houses.  The houses had to

Page 11906

 1     accommodate these new people, and that we should not reckon on coming

 2     back, that we had to go, that buses would be organised; and we would go

 3     on these buses up to the border, we Croats and Hungarians, but mostly

 4     Croats.  And from the border, we would have to walk.  And I'm quoting his

 5     words.  We would go on buses.  We, the Croats and Hungarians, would go on

 6     buses, and the new authority "will be us."  And then he pounded his

 7     chest.

 8             I saw many surprised faces in the public, including some Serbs.

 9     I stress "some."  And among the decorative trees, children were hiding,

10     clapping, and shouting, "Ustashas will drive you out, Ustashas will drive

11     you out."  Those were the words of the audience who attended that rally.

12        Q.   Do you remember if, during this speech, was anybody named?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  The people named were those holding some sort of

14     prominent position; one doctor, then Mato Sama, who was a manager;

15     Mr. Grizelj, director of the cooperative; Franjo Maricic, who worked in

16     the local commune; and other people who had good jobs and high positions

17     were named.  They were named as people who had to leave their jobs,

18     that's what Seselj said, because the people who had newly arrived from

19     Croatia had to have those jobs.

20        Q.   Was any of your relatives named?

21        A.   Franja Baricevic was one of those named, and he's my brother.

22     And the Barisic who worked in the local commune was also named.

23        Q.   What was his position [French interpretation on English channel]?

24        A.   Franjo was in charge of the hydrants and the water supply in the

25     village.  He worked in the local commune.  He was an employee of the

Page 11907

 1     local commune.

 2        Q.   Did he give -- Mr. Seselj give a reason for why those people had

 3     to leave Hrtkovci, or the Croats had to leave Hrtkovci?

 4        A.   He said those people had to leave so that he could place his own

 5     people, so that they would have jobs.  Of course, these people needed the

 6     jobs of those who were already in those positions.

 7        Q.   These people who were mentioned, were they only Croats or

 8     non-Serbs?

 9        A.   They were Croats, down to the last one, Croats and Hungarians.

10     Franjo was half Hungarian.  Another person was Hungarian.  Yes, mainly

11     Croats.

12        Q.   Those people mentioned during the speech, did they later,

13     subsequently, experience any hostility or maltreatment?

14        A.   Well, depends on what you mean by "hostility."  If there had been

15     no pressure, of course these people wouldn't have left their homes.

16        Q.   So you already described the audience response to Seselj's

17     speech.  Can you tell us which word or phrases generated this kind of

18     response, an enthusiastic response by the crowd?

19        A.   Well, the audience responded most enthusiastically when he said

20     the Croats would be boarded on buses, and he, Seselj, he said that

21     pounding his chest, would be the government.  He didn't say that he,

22     himself, would be the new authority, but he said "we."  And he knows best

23     whom he meant.  That's when he got the greatest applause from the

24     audience.  That's when the greatest commotion occurred, and the shouts,

25     "Ustashas, Ustashas."  I don't know why, but that's how they called us.

Page 11908

 1     What can we do about it now?

 2        Q.   Did you recognise anyone in the audience, and did you discuss the

 3     speech with this person?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  That's why I didn't hear all of what he said.  I

 5     could have listened more carefully.  But from his party, there was

 6     Milena Rajakovic.  Her parents lived close to my house.  She stood next

 7     to me to hear what I was going to say.  My employee was also standing

 8     next to me because my husband had let her attend the rally instead of

 9     working, and there were also some of my other neighbours who were Croats,

10     whereas she was Serb.  So I talked to her.  I talked perhaps too much,

11     and she remembered.

12        Q.   What did she say?

13        A.   Well, she was in favour of her own party, and I was against it.

14     I was saying:

15             "Why would Seselj be allowed to come here now?  Why would he

16     drive me out?  I didn't do anything wrong.  He had no reason to drive me

17     out."  And then I said at the end -- perhaps it's a bit ridiculous, but I

18     said, "It's my house, I've just built it.  For someone to just take it

19     away from me, I wouldn't allow.  I'll take a bottle of gas and blow up

20     somebody else's house."

21             What I said might be ridiculous, but I was so distraught and

22     disappointed, I hope you can understand that.

23        Q.   How do you know that this Milena Rajakovic was a member of the

24     Seselj party?

25        A.   Because she -- because I knew her well, and she was constantly in

Page 11909

 1     contact with Ostoja Sibincic, and Ostoja Sibincic was the main man in

 2     Hrtkovci, who organised it all and who made a list of all the names of

 3     owners of the best houses.  He knew that, because he had been brought to

 4     our village from Slavonia.  They got the house of -- that formerly

 5     belonged to some Germans, so it was practically through colonization that

 6     his family got the house they lived in.

 7        Q.   You say there was a list of all the names of the owners of the

 8     best houses.  Did you see this list?

 9        A.   I didn't see it, myself, but you don't have to see a list for

10     yourself if people are being chased out one by one, this house, that

11     house, and then the next one.  People who had nothing, no house, no land,

12     were not persecuted; but if it went the way it did, it meant the

13     persecution targeted those who were wealthy and had large houses.  If

14     somebody is going after you, you'll easily understand that it's you

15     because you have a large house, whereas I won't be affected because I

16     have nothing.

17        Q.   How long did the speech last?

18        A.   You mean Seselj's speech or all the speeches?  There had been

19     speeches before Seselj that I did not attend.

20        Q.   Seselj's.

21        A.   Seselj's speech went on easily for an hour, at least.

22        Q.   At the end of the day, what message did you get from this speech?

23        A.   What do you mean, "message"?  The message was, "You can't survive

24     here.  Get out here -- get out of here, save your skin and that of your

25     family, any way you know how."  The message was that we Croats and

Page 11910

 1     Hungarians had to get out of that village.

 2        Q.   Was there a change in Hrtkovci, after this speech, in the

 3     relationship among the different groups?

 4        A.   After that, people were very intimidated, frightened, didn't feel

 5     like working anymore.  We didn't have our hearts in it.  Our houses were

 6     taken over, and a kind of unrest overwhelmed the village.  The

 7     hardworking people didn't -- couldn't work anymore.  Everyone only

 8     thought of surviving from one day to the next, and waiting for what would

 9     come next.

10        Q.   Can you tell us what happened to you?

11        A.   I can, of course I can.

12             After this speech he made and that rally, a lady came to visit us

13     with her son aged 16.  She spent ten days in our house.  Until then, the

14     police had no need to call on us.  I had to give her my new bedroom with

15     the new furniture that my father had bought us as a house-warming

16     present.  She slept in my room, together with her son.  She cooked on my

17     stove, helped herself to the meat from my fridge.  When I had come back

18     from the church, I found her eating lunch with her son.  She was beside

19     herself with happiness.  She couldn't believe her good luck in getting

20     our house.  She didn't think twice about saying to her son, "God, can it

21     really be true that we got a house like this?"  She already thought of it

22     as her house, and she thought that we had to leave.  She had a house in

23     Zagreb, and she thought that I had to go there, and whatever I had in my

24     house was hers now.

25             My house was new, built in 1980 or 1981.  I had my own shop, well

Page 11911

 1     stocked with the goods that I had bought, unencumbered by a single dinar

 2     of loan.  It was all mine.

 3             We had a piece of land that we bought for our eldest son, so that

 4     we could build a house for him, because our shop was a great success.

 5     She said that she had a house in Zagreb and a piece of land, and that we

 6     should go there; and whatever we had, and everything in our house was

 7     brand new, was going to become her property now.  And in exchange, she

 8     lifted all the things that she had in Zagreb.

 9        Q.   Was she Serb, Serbian?

10        A.   She was a Serb from Zagreb.  She and her son came looking for a

11     house, whereas her elder son was in the Serbian Army.  She had two sons.

12     The elder one was in the Serbian Army, the younger one was with her.  And

13     she had left her husband behind in Zagreb, in that house, so that --

14        Q.   Excuse me.  Did you try to call the police when this woman moved

15     into your house?

16        A.   Yes, yes, but they did not react in any way.  On the contrary,

17     they helped her.  They were helping her, because since communications had

18     broken down at the time, they were cut off, and they enabled her to talk

19     to her husband in Zagreb.  I remember well that at one point my aunt

20     came, saw a police car outside the house.  My aunt came in all

21     frightened, and she said, "What happened in your house?  Why is the

22     police here?"  I just shrugged my shoulders.  I told her, "Well, you can

23     see for yourself.  One doesn't dare say anything."  And since we had no

24     choice, we packed our things.  And how did we pack?  We packed like

25     gypsies.

Page 11912

 1        Q.   When?

 2        A.   When she said that she had all that we needed in Zagreb, that we

 3     should exchange houses.  That's when we packed.

 4             I'm telling you, she had been in our house for ten days up to

 5     that moment, and we realised we had no choice, because when a Serb comes

 6     into your house, you can say goodbye to it.  You are left without

 7     anything in the world.

 8             There was only one man who managed to expel the new occupants,

 9     there was one single case, so we thought we'd better leave.  And as I

10     said, we packed.  They gave us a few bags.  We had an Opel Ascona, and we

11     loaded it with all the things that would fit into the car and onto the

12     roof.  All the clothing and necessities we managed to put in the boot of

13     the car, including some of my valuable zepter crockery and pots.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you have eight

15     minutes left.

16             MR. FERRARA:

17        Q.   What happened when you were in Zagreb?

18        A.   When we arrived in Zagreb, this Mico, the lady's husband who had

19     been left behind, had transferred the title to the house to his brother,

20     so legally we had no house.  That lady had taken over our house, and we

21     were in the street.

22             Then Mr. Spiric came.  I was in tears now.  Spiric asked me what

23     had happened.  I explained.  And then that husband left.  We were in the

24     street.  Our house was gone.  One child was with us, one child was in a

25     boarding school.  And then Spiric suggested that he could go to Hrtkovci

Page 11913

 1     and find another alternative house for us.  My husband gave him a lift.

 2     And when he saw our house, he asked Mile to swap houses with us, himself;

 3     and we agreed to that swap, although we were getting less.  He only had

 4     the house, no land, nothing, but still we agreed.

 5        Q.   Did you sign any contract for this exchange?

 6        A.   Yes.  This was all done legally.  Our house has all the relevant

 7     documents; water certificates, urban certificates, everything.  He didn't

 8     have anything.

 9             MR. FERRARA:  Mr. Registrar, can we have on the screen the

10     document with the 65 ter number 1398, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that has to do with the house

12     exchange.

13             MR. FERRARA:

14        Q.   Is this the contract you signed by Mr. Bilic -- with Mr. Spiric,

15     sorry?

16        A.   That's right.

17             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to admit into evidence the

18     document.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

20     number.  Let's give this official contract a number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

22     Exhibit number P631.  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             MR. FERRARA:

24        Q.   Can you briefly describe the condition of this house that you got

25     in Zagreb, and the condition of the house that you left in Hrtkovci?

Page 11914

 1        A.   In Hrtkovci, well, I have a photograph which you can have a look

 2     at to see what the house looked like.  If you're interested in it, I can

 3     show it to you.

 4             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, can we put it on the ELMO, this

 5     photo?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your

 7     attention to the fact that in similar cases, when the Defence wants to

 8     show something, the Prosecution is on its feet, but I have no objections.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's take a look

10     at this picture.

11             MR. FERRARA:

12        Q.   What's this?

13        A.   The photograph shows my house, which I built in 1980 and 1981.

14     There is a real cellar, and it's a real house with foundations.

15             MR. FERRARA:  Your Honours, I'd like to add this document to our

16     exhibit list, and --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This photograph cannot be admitted

20     into evidence until the Prosecution obtains a photograph of the house

21     that Ms. Paulic is living in Zitnjak, in Zagreb right now.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But that was the exact question

23     I was going to ask the witness.  Do you have a picture of your house

24     today?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this:  I have half a

Page 11915

 1     photograph, because it was an old house and the roof had to be replaced

 2     this year.  I can switch my mobile phone on and show you part of the

 3     house that has been renovated.  You can see the part that I renovated,

 4     you can see that it's new.  This was done this year.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you represent the

 6     OTP.  You knew very well that when you were asking to see this picture,

 7     inevitably we would want to see the picture of the house where the

 8     witness lives in now.  But it seems that this photograph of her house,

 9     where she lives now, is on her mobile phone, so you should have done what

10     was needed in order to have a hard copy of this picture, and you didn't

11     do this.  You just told us that she only had the photograph on her mobile

12     phone?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I, myself, said.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The picture of the house you

15     live in in Zagreb, is it only on your mobile phone?  That's what I

16     understood.

17             MR. FERRARA:

18        Q.   Can we see this photo?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  But I didn't tell that to Prosecution.  I have this

20     for my own sake.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow

22     Judges.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will not

25     admit this picture, neither picture, neither one of them.  Take your

Page 11916

 1     picture, please.

 2             MR. FERRARA:

 3        Q.   Can you describe the condition of the house in Zagreb?

 4        A.   The house was smaller.  It was all covered in wallpaper on the

 5     inside.  You know what wallpaper is.  It doesn't have any foundations,

 6     windows -- when that wallpaper came unstuck, when we removed the

 7     wallpaper, tears started flowing.  We were horrified.  We renovated

 8     everything, literally everything.

 9             His son, Spiric's son, was there last year, his son who was in

10     the Serbian army.  He came to attend a neighbour's wedding.  He wanted to

11     take photographs of the inside.  I said, "Feel free to do so."  I said,

12     "You can take photographs, but there's nothing for you to photograph.

13     Everything has been renovated."

14             Naturally, if you take the ugliest girl and dress her up as a

15     bride, she'll be beautiful.  Well, that's what that house looks like.

16     But now that the roof caved in, well, I can describe the house for you.

17     We buttressed the house up.  Well, it's a bit like putting a lid on a

18     pot.  That's how the top caved in.  So, very briefly, that's how I would

19     describe it, yes.

20        Q.   My last question:  Did you exchange with Mr. Spiric only your

21     house in Hrtkovci or also a piece of land, a piece of land as well?  What

22     did you give to Mr. Spiric?

23        A.   The house, the land.  We had to give him everything in exchange

24     for his house.  And in addition, he asked for us to give him 800 German

25     marks.  At the time, one used marks, not Euros.  We had to give him that

Page 11917

 1     money so that he could pay for a lorry to collect the things that he

 2     wanted, all the -- he said he wouldn't do this.  He took his things, he

 3     packed them.  We gave him 800 kuna, and he left without a word.

 4        Q.   Did you hear of other non-Serbs who exchanged their house with

 5     Serbs that lived outside Hrtkovci?

 6        A.   You mean Hungarians, people who weren't Serbs?

 7        Q.   Correct.

 8        A.   Well, yes, I heard about that, yes.

 9        Q.   Any of your relatives?

10        A.   Well, it's difficult for me to talk about that.  My brother had a

11     house, a house that was newer than mine.  It was built of facade bricks.

12     He had a small, orderly house.  While Spiric was moving out, I went to

13     Franjo's out of curiosity to see how he was, because I'm his sister and I

14     feel for him.

15             In the front rooms, they had left some earth.  Why, I don't know.

16     The house was in a terrible state, but at the time it was terrible.  My

17     sister-in-law was crying.  I tried to console her.  I'm quite courageous,

18     as you can see.  I'm courageous.  I consoled her.  I said, "Well, what's

19     important is that you're alive and that your children are healthy.

20     That's also the case with my children.  You'll always have a house,

21     you'll have everything."  She couldn't reconcile herself to that for a

22     certain period of time.  Eventually she became reconciled to that.  But

23     the house and the yard and everything else was in a very bad state.

24             MR. FERRARA:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 11918

 1             Let me turn to my fellow Judges to see if they have any

 2     questions.

 3             Witness, I have just one question for you.

 4             In your testimony, there's just one thing I find relevant, and

 5     that is the speech given by Mr. Seselj.  You said that he gave names.

 6     Apparently, Mr. Seselj did not know the names of the people whose name

 7     was mentioned.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't know them, but he had

 9     been provided with a list of those people.  But it's true, he couldn't

10     have known those people.  He knew none of us, none of us.  He didn't come

11     to Hrtkovci to get to know the locals.  He was a stranger for us.  He

12     wasn't a local inhabitant.  He arrived in the village and created a

13     disturbance, but he was given that list.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that he was

15     given a list.  How do you know this?  How do you come to that conclusion?

16     Did someone tell you about this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone said that -- what's his

18     name -- Ostoja Sibincic had compiled the list and recorded the houses, so

19     the numbers of the houses and the names of the streets.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Ostoja Sibincic is the one

21     who compiled the list and gave it to Mr. Seselj; and Mr. Seselj, when he

22     delivered his speech, read out the list and the names.  And you mentioned

23     the name of your brother?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was Mr. Sibincic on bad terms

Page 11919

 1     with your brother?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he acted as if he wasn't in a

 3     conflict with anyone.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Earlier on, we saw the picture

 5     of your house.  It's a nice house.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, a beautiful house.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, Mr. Sibincic could

 8     have put your name on the list.  Why is it that he didn't do so?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know why he

10     didn't do that.  Perhaps he was afraid of my husband.  My husband is

11     quite a strict man, and they'd been down there together because he worked

12     for the local commune.  As for his reasons, well, I don't know.  I,

13     myself, am surprised by this.

14             I apologise.  It's probably because he no longer worked in the

15     local commune, but worked for me.  So he wasn't making a post vacant.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In any case, you are saying

17     that you are certain that it's Mr. Seselj who gave these names; you're

18     100 per cent sure about this?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those names were quite clearly

20     pronounced.  I know that because I know all those people, and I was

21     horrified by what I heard.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And those names were pronounced

23     by Mr. Seselj or by someone else?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He uttered the names.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  So you are quite

Page 11920

 1     sure about this.

 2             Mr. Seselj, please proceed with your cross-examination.  You have

 3     one hour.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

 5        Q.   Ms. Paulic, before your testimony today, had you prepared your

 6     testimony with the Prosecution?

 7        A.   A little bit.

 8        Q.   In the course of that proofing, did you go through the statement

 9     that you signed a long time ago?

10        A.   Well, I'm familiar with it.  I'll never forget it.

11        Q.   I'm not asking you whether you are familiar with it, but whether

12     you and a representative of the OTP went through the text.

13        A.   Well, yes, I did.

14        Q.   In that case, why didn't you tell the Prosecution many of the

15     things that you have first stated today?

16        A.   Well, I could go into that, but you'd need a 500- or 600-page

17     book.

18        Q.   Well, why didn't you write that book, then?

19        A.   Well, I'm not that sort.

20        Q.   You're not the sort that the Prosecution wants to obtain

21     information from in advance.  You want to surprise the Prosecution in the

22     courtroom as well?

23        A.   Well, I was asked a few questions and I answered them.

24        Q.   And now you've felt free to talk about things you weren't asked

25     about?

Page 11921

 1        A.   Well, yes.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Let's go and deal with these things in order.

 3             Before coming to The Hague, did you speak to the Croatian

 4     authorities?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Can you look at me when I ask you questions?

 7        A.   Why not?

 8        Q.   Be courteous, then.  I'm looking at you.  I'd like you to look at

 9     me.

10        A.   I can look at you, but I don't see why.

11        Q.   If I'm putting a question to you and if you're answering my

12     question, well, then it would be decent for us to look at each other.

13        A.   The Judges are here to be looked at.

14        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  But when the accused puts questions to you,

15     then you are engaging in a dialogue with the accused.

16        A.   I can hear the accused.

17        Q.   You can hear me sufficiently well, so you don't need to look at

18     me.  Don't you feel uneasy?  Is your conscience ill at ease, and as a

19     result you can't look me in the eyes?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Well, then you don't want to look me in the eyes out of spite,

22     not because you can't?

23        A.   Why should I want to look at you.  You are such an evil man.

24        Q.   But you've never seen a more handsome man, never in your life.

25        A.   Well, whatever you say.  That's a well-known fact.

Page 11922

 1        Q.   Very well.  You don't want to look me in the eyes.  What can I do

 2     about it?  I'm looking in your eyes.

 3             Why did you invent the story about Slavko Mirazic, saying that he

 4     was a member of the Serbian Radical Party, where that was never the case?

 5     He is not a member of that party today, either.

 6        A.   No, I didn't invent that.  That's what he said.

 7        Q.   He was a member of the Serbian Renewal Movement, and everyone in

 8     Hrtkovci knew that and that's probably the case today because no one is

 9     aware of him having left that body.

10        A.   That's his problem.

11        Q.   Very well.  If that's his problem, if it's his problem that you

12     accuse him of being a member of the Serbian Radical Party.  You said that

13     the refugees in Hrtkovci started arriving from various parts of Croatia

14     as early as 1991; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Most of them came after the fall of many places in Western

17     Slavonia in December 1991; is that correct?

18        A.   They were continually arriving.

19        Q.   But most of them came from Grubisno Polje, Slatina, and some

20     other places.  Can you remember the names of those places?

21        A.   Grubisno Polje, I remember that place; and I also remember Kule.

22        Q.   You mentioned the case or a case that isn't referred to in your

23     statement.  You said that there was an old lady living alone in your

24     neighbourhood, in a good house, in a nice house.  Her son was abroad.

25     The lady died.  The son sold the house, and then some refugees illegally

Page 11923

 1     moved into the house.  The new owner arrived, and he couldn't get them to

 2     leave.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   The new owner bought the house, and then they arrived.

 4        Q.   I interpreted what you said.  Refugees moved in.  When he heard

 5     about that, he came from abroad, he tried to expel them; and he was

 6     unsuccessful.  I'm interested in the name of the old lady who died.  You

 7     didn't mention it.

 8        A.   The old lady, Kata Francuz.

 9        Q.   What was her surname?

10        A.   Francuz, Kata Francuz.

11        Q.   What was her son's name?

12        A.   Well, how do I know?

13        Q.   How don't you know the name of neighbour's son?  You would see

14     the old lady, Kata, every day; and she would continually speak to you

15     about her son, if what you're saying is the truth, because you needed

16     some time to remember the name of the old lady.  I haven't heard about

17     that surname, Francuz, in Hrtkovci, but I'll check on this when you

18     leave.

19             What was the name of the new owner when he bought the house from

20     the old lady Kata's son?

21        A.   I wasn't interested in his name.

22        Q.   Do you know him?

23        A.   Partially, to an extent.

24        Q.   Why didn't you mention this fact to the Prosecution when you

25     spoke to the Prosecution the first time?  It's a very interesting case.

Page 11924

 1     The old lady, Kata, died.  The son sold the house.  Refugees moved in.

 2     Why didn't you tell the Prosecution about this?  Didn't they ask you

 3     about it?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Well, what then?

 6        A.   No, they didn't ask me about this.  I said there were so many

 7     cases -- there was so many cases, I could write a book about it.  You

 8     can't remember everything, but I just remembered that.

 9        Q.   And you also needed a little time to remember the name of old

10     lady Kata?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Very well.  You said that the refugees arrived and that they

13     moved around town in groups of four, five, or six individuals; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Who did these refugees attack?

17        A.   They attacked good houses.  They wouldn't attack poor people.

18        Q.   How did they attack?  Did they form groups, then have artillery

19     fire, then mortars?  Did they then fire shots?  What did the attack look

20     like, or did they just appear, knock on doors, say, "We're from

21     such-and-such a place, we have a good house.  Would you like us to do an

22     exchange"?  What did this attack resemble?

23        A.   There was no knocking.  They would enter the yards.

24        Q.   Well, when you enter a yard, do you have to knock?

25        A.   It depends.

Page 11925

 1        Q.   Well, what do you knock on when you enter a yard?

 2        A.   Sir, you knock on the door, but let me repeat this.  It depended.

 3     They entered the yards.  They made threats, used bad language, disturbed

 4     us and so on.

 5        Q.   Perhaps that happened on occasion.  I believe that is the case.

 6     But you don't have any specific information, you're inventing things, and

 7     you're talking in general terms.

 8        A.   Well, dear Seselj, I know about this.

 9        Q.   But you're afraid to look me in the eyes, and I can see that

10     you're not telling the truth.  That's quite sufficient for me.

11        A.   Well, look --

12        Q.   Shall we use the "T" form of addressing each other, the impolite

13     form of addressing each other?

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  We have a

16     technical problem here.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please, do not ask

18     that question again to the witness about why the witness is not looking

19     at you.  When the witness was answering the questions of Mr. Ferrara, she

20     was looking at the Judges.  Everybody's free to look at the Judges.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ms. Lattanzi, according to

22     procedural law, in direct testimony is one of the main principles, that

23     the testimony has to appear in person and address the court, and this is

24     one of the basic factors for checking the witness' credibility.  And then

25     there is the witness' body language.  A truthful witness looks the person

Page 11926

 1     putting questions to the witness in the eyes.  As a student at the

 2     faculty of law, this is something that I was taught.  It's part of

 3     criminal law.

 4             I won't go on about this, but on two occasions I informed you of

 5     how I interpret this, and you can draw the conclusions you like.

 6        Q.   Very well.  How did they threaten you?  Apart from the phone

 7     calls, which we can't check up on - who knows whether there were any such

 8     phone calls or not - but did anyone curse you, for example, in the

 9     street?

10        A.   Well, if they were my friends, well, was it only a matter of

11     cursing --

12        Q.   Just a minute, please.  There wasn't any swearing.

13        A.   Well, there were all sorts of things, Mr. Seselj.

14        Q.   I want to clarify this.  Were there any swear words used, and

15     which ones?

16        A.   Well, we're not going to start cursing, using swear words in the

17     courtroom.

18        Q.   No, we won't, but we'll tell the Chamber what sort of swear words

19     were used.

20        A.   Is it that important?  It's so ugly, should I have to tell you

21     that they cursed my mother, that they cursed my child or, rather, they

22     said that my child was a member of the ZNG, the Home Guards Corps.  All

23     sorts of words were used.  It's not important.

24        Q.   I'm drawing a conclusion from the fact that you don't want to say

25     which swear words were used.  Well, finally you said that they cursed

Page 11927

 1     your mother, so the conclusion I draw is that no one used any swear

 2     words; and when you imagine such things, when you invent such things,

 3     you're not finding your bearing in this cross-examination.

 4        A.   Sir, I don't use swear words.  I don't want to do so.  I'm a

 5     Catholic.

 6        Q.   I'm not interested in the fact that you're a Catholic, and I

 7     didn't say that you used swear words.  What I want to say is that in

 8     Hrtkovci, you're well known as a person who can be quite brazen and

 9     people don't really want to have a verbal conflict with you; is that

10     correct?

11        A.   Well, that's not true.

12        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.  You said a certain Jovo brought in

13     some people who wanted to enter your house; is that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   You don't know what this Jovo's surname is?

16        A.   [No verbal response]

17        Q.   Is he a refugee or a local inhabitant?

18        A.   Jovo is a refugee.  He has a house, together with his brother, in

19     Zagreb, in a neighbourhood called Zitnjak.

20        Q.   Did this Jovo incite you to go there to Zitnjak and to do some

21     sightseeing and find someone to possibly swap houses with?

22             You are hesitating for a long time.  What's the reason?

23        A.   And you are nervous, aren't you?  Jovo finally admitted to me

24     this:  "I am bringing to you other people all the time, but I have a

25     house myself in Zagreb, in Zitnjak, that you could take in exchange for

Page 11928

 1     your house."

 2        Q.   Did Jovo introduce you to Dragutin Spiric, with whom you swapped

 3     houses?

 4        A.   No, he did not.

 5        Q.   That's what I wanted to know.  Now, let's come to the rally.

 6             Why were you astounded by the broadcasting of Serb songs before

 7     the rally?  You don't like Serbian songs?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   And you were taken aback?

10        A.   I was taken aback because I had never heard any of them before

11     that moment, and it sounded horrible to me.  Why would Seselj's arrival

12     necessarily mean that these songs would be booming around town?

13        Q.   What else would you play before a rally?

14        A.   Well, I listened to other songs.  They were very nice songs.

15        Q.   You mean songs about Ban Jelacic, young Ustashas charging into

16     battle.  But, anyway, every bird flies to his own nest.  Some are even

17     willing to sacrifice themselves for their own flock.

18        A.   Let it be.

19        Q.   You saw, at my rally, you say, men dressed in black from head to

20     toe, with ammunition belts on their chests and terrible cockades on their

21     hats.  What's so terrible about those cockades?

22        A.   What was terrible?  Well, it was terrifying to me, because I had

23     never seen them before.  How wouldn't it be?  What were suddenly Serbian

24     soldiers doing in our beautiful, peaceful village?

25        Q.   You say in your statement there was very few police at the rally;

Page 11929

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And we have information from a man who worked in the State

 4     Security Service, Slavko Kolundzic, who attended the rally as part of his

 5     job; and he said there was a lot of police security and you didn't see

 6     it?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   It seemed to you that those policemen were Seselj's soldiers,

 9     with ammunition belts and Serbian-style hats?

10        A.   I don't know what you mean.

11        Q.   You say that these cockades were as big as plates?

12        A.   That there are all sorts of sizes.

13        Q.   It says here that "they were as big as plates."

14        A.   That's how things looked like when you are frightened.

15        Q.   And these hats, were they as big as army caldrons?  If the

16     cockades were as big as plates, then the hats had to be as big as army

17     caldrons; right?

18        A.   I don't know the size of an army caldron.  I've never been in the

19     army.  But they were black and pointed, ugly.  Again, I'm saying I've

20     never seen them before.

21        Q.   So even the hats were ugly to you?

22        A.   Yes.  They were pointed and ugly.

23        Q.   Well, these Serbian-style hats were produced as Serbian military

24     uniform in the 19th century, emulating French hats, and the Serbian

25     military uniform in the First World War was among the most beautiful army

Page 11930

 1     uniforms.  Do you know that?

 2        A.   We didn't want to know about that.  We liked our traditional

 3     national costumes of the Sokac people.

 4        Q.   You mean Sokac, Serbs who converted to Catholicism?

 5        A.   Well, they used to be Orthodox and then they converted.

 6        Q.   How do you know that?

 7        A.   Well, I learned about it.

 8        Q.   You mean from your own books?  Why do you keep saying that

 9     Hungarians were mentioned at the rally, when nobody ever mentioned

10     Hungarians?

11        A.   Sir, I am not making anything up.  I did not come here to make

12     things up.  I came here to tell the truth and only the truth.  And you,

13     if you were proud enough to pound your chest there, be brave here.

14        Q.   I am, I am brave.  There's nobody braver in the whole Hague

15     Tribunal.

16        A.   I can see that.

17        Q.   Fine.  During that speech, did I say that all children from mixed

18     marriages should be killed?

19        A.   I've been warned by interpreters to make a pause.

20        Q.   What are you looking at?  Is somebody sending you any messages?

21        A.   Come and see, come and have a look.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you can look at the

23     screen, but at the screen what you see is the English translation of your

24     answers or of Mr. Seselj's questions, or the Judges' questions.  If you

25     like to learn English, you can do so, but maybe at another time.

Page 11931

 1             Now, could you please answer Mr. Seselj's questions?

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Will you answer my question?  Please try.  Did I say at that

 4     meeting that all children from mixed marriages should be killed off?

 5        A.   I heard with my own ears that you said mixed marriages should be

 6     broken.

 7        Q.   And children killed?

 8        A.   I didn't hear anything about children, because as you said, I am

 9     very talkative myself and Milena was standing next to me, a child of a

10     mixed marriage; and it didn't hurt me so much because of Milena but

11     because of my own sister who is in a mixed marriage and has two children,

12     so I started talking to her immediately.  I didn't hear about children,

13     but you did say that mixed marriages between Croats and Serbs should be

14     broken up.

15        Q.   And who was at that rally from your own family?

16        A.   Well, I don't have to tell you that.

17        Q.   You do have to tell me.

18        A.   My niece.  There were others, but she is the most important.

19        Q.   Was your brother there?

20        A.   My brother lives on one end, I live on another.  I repeat to you

21     that I was on the street where my house is.

22        Q.   And how many people attended that rally?

23        A.   About a thousand, give or take.

24        Q.   So was your brother at the rally or not?  Did you see him?

25        A.   Can you really see every face in such a big crowd?  I believe he

Page 11932

 1     was there.

 2        Q.   Was he or wasn't he?

 3        A.   I believe he was.

 4        Q.   Did you talk to your brother at any time after the rally about

 5     the things you heard?

 6        A.   The whole village talked, not just my brother and I.  Everybody

 7     talked about it.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's 12.00, and I believe we

 9     should break for 20 minutes.

10             We'll resume at 12.20.  We'll finish at 1.15.

11             I think you have used up 25 minutes already, you'll have 35

12     minutes left, so normally we shall be able to finish on time.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

16             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Ms. Paulic, you said at one point that in my speech at that

19     rally, I read a list of names.  How come that I, as the president of a

20     political party coming to a rally, read a list of names of inhabitants of

21     Hrtkovci who should be expelled?  Doesn't that sound tragic comic to you,

22     ridiculous?  It's my electoral campaign.  I'm making a political speech,

23     making promises as to what the Serbian Radical Party would do when they

24     come into power; and I also advocate the principle of retorsion, that is,

25     an exchange of population of Croatia, saying that if Croatia expelled so

Page 11933

 1     many Serbs, we would do the same to Croats, briefly we would do to Croats

 2     whatever the Tudjman regime did to Serbs.  And then I take out a list of

 3     inhabitants of Hrtkovci and read it out?  Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

 4             Shall I have to wait much longer?  The interpretation has

 5     finished long ago.

 6        A.   It was funny to us at the time, but obviously, looking at you, it

 7     wasn't funny.  You did it all in a politically-organised way.

 8        Q.   First, we expelled hundreds of thousands of Serbs from Croatia,

 9     and then we expelled a couple of thousand Croats from Serbia.  It was all

10     conceived and designed by us.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, would it be possible

12     to turn off the screen in front of Ms. Paulic, where she's following the

13     transcript, so that she can think about answers, because the transcript

14     lags behind the interpretation.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, don't waste your

16     time looking at the screen.  I don't know what you're looking at.  Maybe

17     you see myself on the screen, and then there's another screen with text

18     in English that is scrolling.  But it's useless for you, unless you need

19     time to think about your answer.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not impossible that somebody

21     is sending her answers to my questions.  This waiting is very suspicious.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody needs to send me answers.

23     I can easily answer to them.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So when I get your goat a little, then you're very ready to

Page 11934

 1     answer.  So let me go on.

 2             How do you know -- where did you get this idea that

 3     Ostoja Sibincic gave me that list to read?

 4        A.   Well, who else would it be?  He was the main organiser in

 5     Hrtkovci.

 6        Q.   And to what party did Ostoja Sibincic belong to at the time?

 7        A.   You know that well.  Why would you ask me if you know it?

 8        Q.   I know very well.  I'm asking you, as a witness.

 9        A.   Just like you.

10        Q.   You mean he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Are you sure.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Well, if you're sure, why would we go on.  You said that you were

15     in Hrtkovci when the wife of Dragutin Spiric came and came into your

16     house with her child?

17        A.   Not Spiric's wife, another woman with whom we were supposed to

18     swap houses.

19        Q.   And you didn't, eventually?

20        A.   Not with that woman.

21        Q.   Because her house was not good enough for you?

22        A.   No.  The thing is that her husband, while she was staying in my

23     house, signed over the title to the house to his brother.

24        Q.   So you went to Zitnjak in Zagreb?

25        A.   The surname is Milutinovic.

Page 11935

 1        Q.   Wait a little.  So you personally went to Zitnjak, near Zagreb?

 2        A.   She invited us with the intention to swap house for house, Mico

 3     Milutinovic's house.

 4        Q.   And since your agreement with the Milutinovic's fell through?

 5        A.   That's not how it happened.  We went to the registrar, to the

 6     public notary, and the public notary found that there were no papers, no

 7     title.

 8        Q.   And then you went around and made inquiries around Zitnjak?

 9        A.   No.  I was sitting down and crying when Dragutin Spiric came in

10     and asked me why I was crying.  And I answered, to which he said, "Dear

11     lady, come and have a look at my house."  So I did go because it was

12     nearby.

13             My husband went back to Hrtkovci because we realised we had lost

14     our house, there was no title to the other house.  We had a shop and a

15     house, and Spiric told my husband to find another house in Hrtkovci.

16        Q.   You've told us all that.  Zitnjak is a neighbourhood in Zagreb?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Four kilometres from the center?

19        A.   That's not true.  It's seven or eight kilometres.

20        Q.   I have a statement here --

21        A.   Well, that's your problem.

22        Q.   You are quite quarrelsome now.  That's better.  The wife of

23     Dragutin Spiric says it's four kilometres from the center of Zagreb.

24        A.   Let it be.

25        Q.   It was populated by 70 per cent Serbs before the war?

Page 11936

 1        A.   How would I know?

 2        Q.   Were there many Serbs?  You live there now.

 3        A.   I know about now, but I don't know about before.

 4        Q.   That's right.  You did not count them as they were leaving, did

 5     you?

 6             The wife of Dragutin Spiric says that you came and went around

 7     the neighbourhood, looking for a house that would be suitable, and you

 8     viewed a lot of Serbian houses.  And that was not unusual in any way,

 9     because many Croats had come before and after you to look at Serb houses

10     and inquire about possible swapping.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

12             MR. FERRARA:  Yes, I did not understand.  Mr. Seselj is reading a

13     statement of the wife of Dragutin Spiric?  It was never disclosed to

14     the --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood, too.

16     But you know that --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the Prosecutor has no idea

18     what has or hasn't been disclosed to him.  This -- in fact, to me.  This

19     is in my book, "The Hrtkovci Scandal," and if I give you some headlines,

20     you are again going to redact it from the transcript and turn it into a

21     private session.  So there's "The Hrtkovci Affair," in the headline and a

22     few more words.  I disclosed it to the Prosecution in good time, at least

23     a month before the first Hrtkovci witness appeared, and the Prosecutor

24     should do his homework.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, this statement

Page 11937

 1     made by this woman is in the book that you received.

 2             MR. FERRARA:  Maybe Mr. Seselj should point out before reading

 3     and say, "I'm reading a statement in the book," and so on.  Of course, we

 4     have thousands of documents.  We cannot know everything in the documents.

 5     He should be more precise.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Please continue.

 7           THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this book, (redacted)

 8     (redacted) and so on, consists of studies on the Hrtkovci case,

 9     written by my associates, that I had turned over to you in October of

10     last year with my objection to the indictment.  You decided at the time

11     that it shouldn't be translated into English.  You only translated the

12     objection and ruled on the objection.

13             If you had translated it all into English, I believe that the

14     evidence on Hrtkovci would have been so convincing that you would have,

15     without any hesitation, decided to remove all references to Hrtkovci in

16     the indictment.

17             So this is the study in my book, first, and then goes all the

18     rest; the judgements, the --

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please continue the interpretation.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  It's mostly finished.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Seselj, the Chamber ruled that you could

23     have a great number of pages translated into English.  So far, we haven't

24     seen one single page.  Because you have not ordered it or why?

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I told you last

Page 11938

 1     time that this is probably a very interesting book, as far as what

 2     happened in this municipality is concerned, so you should have thought

 3     about the fact that the Judges needed to know about this book.

 4             When this book was mentioned ages ago, we had no idea what was in

 5     the book, and now I'm discovering that in this book we could find the

 6     statement made by this woman, this woman who was part of the exchange of

 7     houses.  It's quite interesting.  So out of the 10.000 pages in the book,

 8     you should have told the translation department, "Translate this page and

 9     that page so that the Judges know about these elements."  But this is

10     something you did not do.

11             I note that this book might be of interest, but unfortunately we

12     don't have it, it's not available to us.

13             Mr. Mundis.

14             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Two points, very quickly.

15             As we've indicated in the past, the book primarily consists of

16     material that is -- that relates to protected witnesses or material that

17     the Trial Chamber has ordered to be placed under seal.

18             Second of all, the book is more than a thousand pages' long, and

19     we would ask the Trial Chamber to order the accused that when he is going

20     to be using parts of that book, or any of his other books, in terms of

21     cross-examination, that he needs to notify us so that we can have those

22     parts of the book ready and available to us.

23             Simply saying he's disclosed a 1.000-page book to us, and,

24     therefore, anything and everything in it is fair game for each and every

25     witnesses in cross-examination, is not fair; and we need notification,

Page 11939

 1     just as the Trial Chamber does, so that Your Honours can have those pages

 2     before you when he cross-examines a witness.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis.  You know that

 4     the events linked to this municipality are very important, of paramount

 5     importance to this document, notably because of the speech that was made

 6     there and everything that occurred around the speech.  And because of

 7     this, the OTP must know of all of the book, the entire book.  If I were

 8     you, I would know the book from page 1 to the last page.  If the accused

 9     is talking about this book, then the OTP would have the answer, if the

10     OTP knew the book.

11             I know that you came in, in midstream, you know, and you were not

12     able to know of all the exhibits, but when you're a prosecutor, and it's

13     a job I had at one point, it's to know everything, to know all the

14     evidence, to be aware of the existence of the entire body of evidence so

15     that you're never taken by surprise by the Defence.

16             If he is mentioning part of a book, normally you should be able

17     to answer quickly without having to be told about the page where the

18     passage can be found.  If I had read this book, I could tell you by

19     route, you know, the page and the paragraph.  Unfortunately, we're not

20     given this book.

21             MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, with all due respect, the fact that

22     the witness -- or the fact that the accused wants to cross-examine from

23     certain pages of the book is certainly something that he can notify us

24     about in advance.

25             The fact is, as we've said before, this book contains largely

Page 11940

 1     information that shouldn't have been published and put into the public

 2     domain in the first place.  The remainder of that book, if the accused

 3     knows he's going to cross-examine on certain parts of the book, he has an

 4     obligation, just as any other accused or any other Defence team do, to

 5     provide adequate notice to us so that we can be thoroughly prepared.

 6     This is what is known as trial by ambush, and it is no more fair to the

 7     Prosecution to allow this to proceed than it would be if we were to try

 8     the same thing against the accused.  It's a fundamental issue of equality

 9     of arms.

10             And I note for the record, once again, Dr. Seselj is laughing.

11     This is inappropriate behaviour in the courtroom, and we would ask again,

12     these are exactly the kinds of things that demand imposition of counsel

13     immediately.  We are not getting a fair trial, we're not being put on

14     fair notice as to what he's cross-examining on, and when I raise issues,

15     he mocks us.

16             This is not the way to proceed, with all due respect.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation]  Mr. Seselj, I was not looking

18     at you.  You are not supposed to smirk or smile when the Prosecutor is

19     talking.  And Mr. Mundis is right in one part.  If, in this book, there

20     are passages on protected witnesses, you must be very careful and never

21     mention this in open session.  However, this was not the case, because

22     our witness here is not protected, and the wife -- everything that deals

23     with the wife of the person who swapped -- they swapped apartments with

24     is not protected either.

25             But we now have some minutes left, and you have the floor.

Page 11941

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,

 2     laughter is something that one can often not control.  It's a spontaneous

 3     reaction of an individual to certain events.  It can be controlled

 4     sometimes, but not always, and it cannot be forbidden.  First of all, I

 5     did not laugh out loud, and thus it was not insulting, it was not

 6     offensive.

 7             I have disclosed this book to the Prosecution, and I meant to

 8     submit one copy for translation.  But when I saw that you forbade the

 9     title to be mentioned in the courtroom, I gave up on that idea.

10             Third, I wasn't quoting from the book.  I am interpreting part of

11     the statement of Dragutin Spiric's wife.  I didn't even have time to

12     write down her name, so I keep referring to her as Dragutin Spiric's

13     wife.  And it is only after the intervention of the Prosecutor that I

14     said that it was published -- that statement was published in the book.

15     I have the right to use it in my cross-examination.

16             Fourth, Mr. President, I am, in principle, opposing that any

17     statement taken by the Defence or the Prosecution be admitted into

18     evidence without prior cross-examination, just as I oppose the proffering

19     by the Prosecutor of 92 ter statements that the Prosecutor, himself, has

20     written, and that's why I did not offer into evidence -- I did not tender

21     the statements -- witness statements taken by my own associates.  When I

22     call Defence statements, I will bring many of those who have already

23     given written statements.  But that's something we can leave for later.

24             I have the right to interpret various statements, and if the

25     Prosecutor asks me, I'll tell him it comes from a book.  They can find

Page 11942

 1     it.

 2             It says, in Dragutin Spiric's wife's statement, that Ms. Paulic

 3     came to Zitnjak, looked around for a suitable house for purposes of an

 4     exchange, and now I'm putting it to her that Dragutin Spiric's wife

 5     claims that the Spiric family had swapped their house in a blind exchange

 6     for the Paulics' house.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true.

 8             MR. SESELJ:  [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   However, the contract on the exchange was drafted by

10     Igor Kanajet, attorney-at-law; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   From another village, and it was verified in Zagreb.  That

13     attorney is from Dugo Selo.  That's just outside Zagreb; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So, you see, I know a few things myself, and Dugo Selo is not in

16     Ruma municipality where the Hrtkovci is.

17             And now I'm asking the witness:  You and your husband intended to

18     cheat Dragutin Spiric and his wife, and in concluding that contract, they

19     did not provide all the necessary documentation.  So when Dragutin Spiric

20     came to Hrtkovci, he could not book the house in Hrtkovci in his own

21     name; whereas the Paulics signed in the register, in the land register,

22     immediately.  Isn't that correct?

23        A.   No, no, we couldn't transfer the title.  We couldn't have

24     transferred the title unless it was all legal.  Everything was legal.  We

25     had all the permits, all the papers.  There was no encumbering mortgages

Page 11943

 1     or anything, loans.

 2        Q.   Ms. Paulic, you didn't give Dragutin Spiric all the necessary

 3     documents.  Your house was legal.

 4        A.   How could we have transferred it, then?

 5        Q.   With the help of the documents in Zagreb.

 6        A.   Of course.

 7        Q.   And Dragutin Spiric didn't have all the necessary documents to

 8     register it in Ruma?

 9        A.   How could he have sold it?

10        Q.   First he filed charges against you?

11        A.   No.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are

13     complaining.  Witness, you must wait for Mr. Seselj to be finished with

14     his question before answering, as it takes some time, but don't take too

15     long.  And try not to answer too fast.  Otherwise, the interpreters

16     cannot keep track of what you are saying.

17             Continue, Mr. Seselj.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we see a document from

19     the Prosecution binder, one that the Prosecution didn't want to use for

20     some reason.  The Prosecution provided me the document evidence according

21     to which Dragutin Spiric filed charges against you.

22        Q.   Ms. Paulic, did you cheat him?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   He didn't file charges against you?

25        A.   No.

Page 11944

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document on the

 2     screen?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the documents weren't in order,

 4     we wouldn't have been able to sell the house immediately and we wouldn't

 5     have been able to open an establishment, a catering establishment.

 6        Q.   He didn't do anything, but he prosecuted you.

 7        A.   How could I have sold the house if the documents weren't in

 8     order?

 9        Q.   When you did the exchange in Zagreb, you did not give

10     Dragutin Spiric all the necessary documents.

11        A.   It wasn't necessary.

12        Q.   It wasn't necessary because you wanted to cheat him?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And then Dragutin Spiric arrived in Hrtkovci.  He was first

15     astounded because he had been given a house that wasn't as good as the

16     one he had, according to his wife.  He also suffered a stroke shortly

17     after that.  The house was empty, it wasn't furnished, there was nothing

18     in it, whereas he had left you all his property in the house in Zitnjak?

19        A.   Were you listening to this?

20        Q.   Well, no.

21        A.   Did you listen to what I said in my statement?  I said Spiric

22     went to have a look at a different house in Hrtkovci with my husband.

23        Q.   That has nothing to do with what I'm asking you about.

24        A.   Yes, it does.  Listen to me.  He saw my house.  He brought a

25     photograph of my house with him and showed it to the lady.  You said that

Page 11945

 1     she was shedding tears, apparently, and complaining.  Well, she said the

 2     following, "Is it possible for us to actually get that house?"  And they

 3     told us that they had to go so that the children could be together,

 4     because their son was in the Serbian army, in your army.  He left the

 5     army to go to the Serbian army and his daughter stayed in Zagreb.

 6        Q.   Did he wear a cockade hat?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I didn't see him.

 8        Q.   Have a look at this document.  It's a judgement from the Ruma

 9     Municipal Court, issued because you and your husband didn't respond to

10     the charges.

11        A.   We didn't receive it.

12        Q.   It came into force on the 5th of October, 1993, and it states the

13     following:

14             "In the name of the people, the Municipal Court in Ruma, the

15     court of first instance in this litigation with Judge Dragan Mandic as

16     president of the Chamber, and illegal matter of Dragutin Spiric from

17     Hrtkovci, represented by Mladen Grbic, a lawyer from Ruma, against

18     Defendants Mile Paulic and Katica Paulic from Zagreb.

19             "With the purpose of establishment of facts, during the

20     preliminary hearing, the first hearing before the main hearing on the

21     16th of July, 1993, in the presence of the proxor [phoen] of the

22     plaintiff, in absence of the defence, who have been summoned, delivered

23     the following."

24             So the verdict for the failure to appear is as follows:

25             "It has been established that the plaintiff, Dragutin Spiric from

Page 11946

 1     Hrtkovci, is the owner of property registered in Land Registry Hrtkovci

 2     under number 1972; namely, the parcel number 15281, which is land

 3     consisting of four areas," and so forth.

 4             "The defendants are obliged to admit to the said and to issue a

 5     tabulation fit to re-register the said property from the names."

 6             You didn't want to issue him with that document so that he could

 7     register the property.  That's how you cheated him?

 8        A.   No, we didn't.

 9        Q.   He had to consult the courts, refer the matter to the courts?

10        A.   He wanted to sell the property.  He did so.  That was his

11     intention, and that's it.  Had we cheated him?  Well, no, we didn't cheat

12     him.  We didn't receive this document, however.

13        Q.   Just pause there, please.  It says you should have given him the

14     document so that he could register the property in the name of the person

15     filing the charges.  It says:

16             "This verdict shall substitute for any opposite conduct on this

17     issue within 15 days, with the possibility of enforcement."

18             So Mr. Spiric had to go to court to prove that he had exchanged

19     houses with you.  And on the basis of the court judgement, he had to

20     register his house in his name, because you didn't give him the documents

21     he needed to register the house.  He provided you, however, with all the

22     documents you needed, and you had no problems to register the house in

23     Zagreb in your name.

24             Is that what this judgement, in fact, shows?

25        A.   Well, I'll repeat what I said.  We didn't receive this judgement,

Page 11947

 1     and I'll repeat what I said.  There was no reason for him to file such

 2     charges, because all our documents were in order.

 3        Q.   In that case, why would he file such charges, if there was no

 4     reason?

 5        A.   You have to ask him that question.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Why would the Court issue a judgement if all the documents were

 7     available?  Are you a little surprised by this judgement?

 8        A.   Yes, naturally.

 9        Q.   When did you have the proofing session with the Prosecution?

10        A.   What proofing?

11        Q.   Did you speak to the Prosecution yesterday or the day before?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When?  How long did the conversation last?

14        A.   It was very brief.

15        Q.   Were you shown the contents of the conversation or were you shown

16     this list that you can see, this document, in the course of the proofing?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did he ask you what it meant?

19        A.   I said I had nothing to do with it.  I said I knew nothing about

20     it.

21        Q.   You said that Dragutin Spiric didn't file charges against you a

22     minute ago?

23        A.   I have never received this.

24        Q.   But the Prosecution showed this to you.

25        A.   Do you understand me?

Page 11948

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the speakers to

 2     slow down and to pause between question and answers.  It's impossible to

 3     follow like this.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive that document.  I

 5     can't say I received the document, because I didn't.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did the Prosecution show you the document yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you have a look at it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you read through it all?

12        A.   Yes, I read through it, and I was surprised.

13        Q.   In that case, when I asked you whether Dragutin Spiric filed

14     charges against you, why did you say "no"?

15        A.   Well, he didn't file charges against me.  I didn't receive the

16     document.

17        Q.   The Prosecution informed you of the fact that Dragutin Spiric did

18     file charges against you.

19        A.   Very well.  So he filed charges?  So what?  What he wanted to do,

20     he managed to.

21        Q.   What did he want to do?

22        A.   Well, I have no idea.  You should ask him.

23        Q.   He wanted to register the house in his name, the one that he

24     exchanged for his own house.

25        A.   Well, then he was successful.

Page 11949

 1        Q.   But that was only one year later.

 2        A.   And he sold it four months after the exchange.

 3        Q.   How could he have done it without having registered it?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Are you sure he sold it after four months?

 6        A.   He boasted about it.

 7        Q.   But he couldn't register the house, and he couldn't transfer the

 8     house to some other owner.

 9        A.   Very well.

10        Q.   But his house or the house was so bad that he sold it for

11     nothing, and what he got for your house -- well, for what he got for your

12     house, he could have bought a flat of 60 square metres.

13        A.   He boasted he could buy two.

14        Q.   No, he didn't.  You've amended that.

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   But you wanted to cheat him?

17        A.   He built everything.

18        Q.   You wanted to cheat him, didn't you?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You didn't?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   So why didn't you give him this tabulation document so that he

23     could register the house?

24        A.   Everything was in order.

25        Q.   What do you mean?  He didn't receive it?

Page 11950

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   This judgement was one that he used instead of the tabulation

 3     document so that he could register the house in his name.

 4        A.   I don't know.  They're always murky affairs.

 5        Q.   Is this a murky affair?

 6        A.   Probably.

 7        Q.   In what sense?

 8        A.   He knows about that.

 9        Q.   I wouldn't be aware of this document if the Prosecution hadn't

10     provided me with it.  Did the Prosecution create this?

11        A.   I don't know, I have no idea.

12        Q.   Ms. Paulic, you didn't manage to cheat Dragutin Spiric, at least

13     not completely; is that correct?

14        A.   That's your conclusion.

15        Q.   And when you exchanged houses and went to live in Zagreb, your

16     husband --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

18             MR. FERRARA: [Interpretation] I'd like a clarification.

19             Mr. Seselj said that he is not aware of this document, because I

20     found this document in his book, in his "Hrtkovci Affair" book here,

21     immediately after the declaration of the wife of Mr. Dragutin Spiric.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You see,

23     Mr. Seselj, that the Prosecutor read your book, because he found this

24     document in your book.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  We're advancing.

Page 11951

 1             MR. FERRARA:  This he should answer, instead of laughing.

 2     There's nothing to laugh, I think.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that I

 4     wouldn't even be aware of the document if the Prosecution hadn't provided

 5     me with it.  So we have some stylistic nuances here now.  But I showed

 6     you the original of the document that the Prosecution gave me, not my

 7     book.  As if I can remember what my 1.200-page book contains?  So

 8     everything is contained in it, Mr. President, especially since on the

 9     basis of my instructions, others drafted the book.  But it was on the

10     basis of my very strict instructions, so I am the author of the book.

11     They were just doing what I wanted.  It's a book compiled of documents.

12     It contains documents alone, nothing else.

13             And Mr. Ferrara would like to exchange the thesis here.  The

14     point is to establish why the witness wanted to cheat Dragutin Spiric

15     when exchanging property.  The point isn't whether this document that I

16     got from the Prosecution is in my book or not.  Naturally, my associates

17     looked into everything in detail and obtained far more documents than the

18     Prosecution could even dream of.

19             MR. FERRARA:  Well, Your Honour, maybe the Prosecution can inform

20     Mr. Seselj that the document is in his book, allegedly his book at the

21     time, page 386, 387, 388, immediately after the declaration, the

22     statement of the wife of Dragutin Spiric.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we're just wasting

24     time for no reason.  Why should I refer to my book and then have

25     Mr. Ferrara up on his feet because the book hasn't been translated?  I

Page 11952

 1     can refer to the document that he provided me with.  It's easier.  He

 2     can't say it hasn't been translated, because you have received this

 3     document in the English language.  So why all this muddle now?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine.  This is a minor matter.

 5             We have 15 minutes before we adjourn.  Please try to conclude.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will conclude by then -- I

 7     wouldn't say it's a subsidiary matter, because this undermines the

 8     credibility of this witness, given the attempt to cheat someone when

 9     exchanging property.  I don't think you could have been provided with

10     anything more convincing.

11        Q.   Where did your brother, Franja Baricevic, go to, Ms. Paulic?

12        A.   To Jaksic.

13        Q.   That's near Slavonska Pozega; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And then your son went to Franja Baricevic on a number of

16     occasions?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Never?  What's the distance between Zagreb and Pozega?

19        A.   What is it?  150 kilometres at the most?

20        Q.   No, 350 from Zagreb to Pozega.

21        A.   There was a war, so the motorway was closed, so you had to go

22     around, yes.

23        Q.   Very well.  When you exchanged this house with Dragan Spiric, you

24     went to Zagreb, and your husband and son stayed on in Serbia for a little

25     while?

Page 11953

 1        A.   Not for a certain while, but to save the house.  They returned to

 2     save the house because Mico didn't have any papers.

 3        Q.   You waited for your son to complete the secondary school for

 4     internal affairs in Sremska Kamenica, and then with a diploma from the

 5     police school, he could go to Zagreb with his father; that was the

 6     reason?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So you didn't just move around because you are under threat; you

 9     were able to move out comfortably.  You could choose a house that you

10     wanted, that you liked?

11        A.   No, no.

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   No, it wasn't like that.

14        Q.   So why did you make up the story that I mentioned

15     Dragutin Vuksanic in my speech, a doctor from Hrtkovci?  He was a

16     well-liked person in Hrtkovci; isn't that correct?

17        A.   Well, I don't know whether he was well liked.  He was a doctor.

18     It was Branko Vuksanic, that was his name.

19        Q.   Branimir, is that his name?

20        A.   Branko.

21        Q.   Did the Serbs trust him, and the Croats as well?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Was he well known in the broader area as someone whose diagnoses

24     were exceptional?  He could have a look at you and diagnose your illness;

25     isn't that correct?  So why would anyone disturb that man?

Page 11954

 1        A.   Well, why did he move out?

 2        Q.   Well, he moved out because he was cheated, deception was

 3     involved.

 4        A.   That's what you say.

 5        Q.   Because of deception, because people from Belgrade came to

 6     convince him that he should move out, and they said that if he didn't do

 7     so, a lot of Croats would follow him?

 8        A.   Since he was such a good doctor, I don't believe that he would

 9     have fallen for such words.

10        Q.   Yes, but the offer was attractive.

11        A.   That's what others say.

12        Q.   But you heard others saying that?

13        A.   No, I assume that was the case.

14        Q.   You assume.  So you're testifying about something that you

15     assume?

16        A.   No.  You're making this up.

17        Q.   We're still using the "T" form, the familiar form of address.

18        A.   Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

19        Q.   Very well.  Do you know Niko Kraljevic, the local priest?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you know him well?

22        A.   Well, do I know him well?  I don't know my husband very well, let

23     alone him.

24        Q.   You don't even know your own husband?

25        A.   I don't know him well.

Page 11955

 1        Q.   How should I understand that?

 2        A.   Well, think about it.

 3        Q.   I can't think about that.  I'm sorry, I have to disappoint you.

 4             How about Niko Kraljevic; was he known for a drinking problem?

 5        A.   To some extent, yes.

 6        Q.   Was he prone to causing trouble when drunk?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   He never attacked anyone?

 9        A.   No.  He was known for merry-making and singing.

10        Q.   Do you know he attacked Djordje Obric from Sabac when inebriated?

11        A.   I don't know that man Djordje and I never heard of this case.

12        Q.   So you don't know.  Very well.  Have you heard of Mijat Stefanac?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Was he suffering from a drinking problem?

15        A.   No.  He lives at one end of the village, and I at another.

16        Q.   Do you know he was killed in Hrtkovci?

17        A.   I heard about that when I was already in Zagreb.

18        Q.   He was killed somewhere between Hrtkovci and Batkovici?

19        A.   I heard he was tortured.  It was awful.

20        Q.   Do you know the motives for murder?

21        A.   He let strangers into his own house.

22        Q.   But it's not those strangers that killed him.  His wife had left

23     him, and his sons had left.  He allowed refugees into his house.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But it's not the refugees who killed him, or did you hear

Page 11956

 1     otherwise?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   I'm interested in this story, because it had spread among people

 4     in Hrtkovci, especially the Croats who'd left.

 5        A.   I was in Zagreb.

 6        Q.   But you heard the story, that he was killed by Serbian refugees

 7     that he allowed into his house; is that what you heard?  Say it loud and

 8     clear, because we can't record your head nodding.

 9             Do you know it was established before the Court that he was

10     killed by completely other people?

11        A.   I am only telling you what I heard.  I'm not claiming anything.

12        Q.   And all the rest that's said is also what you heard; you're not

13     claiming anything?

14        A.   I can say what I know, and I can tell you honestly when I'm

15     saying something I only heard.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've completed my

17     cross-examination.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19             Mr. Ferrara, any re-examination?

20             MR. FERRARA:  No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on behalf of my fellow

22     Judges, I would like to thank you for having come and testify here.  The

23     cross-examination may have come as a surprise for you, but pursuant to

24     the Rules of this Tribunal, both the Prosecution and the Defence are

25     allowed to cross-examine witnesses.  That's the way it's organised here.

Page 11957

 1             I wish you a safe trip home, and I'm going to ask the usher to

 2     escort you out of the courtroom.

 3             Now, as for tomorrow, we have an expert witness scheduled to

 4     testify in the same conditions as the previous expert witness.  The Trial

 5     Chamber has decided that the Prosecution would have 45 minutes to conduct

 6     its examination-in-chief, and Mr. Seselj will have an hour and a half to

 7     conduct his cross-examination.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's all.

10             It's almost time to adjourn.  I wish you a pleasant afternoon,

11     and I will see you all here tomorrow morning at 8.30.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of

14                           November, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.