081119ED

Page 11856

1 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

2 WITNESS: VISNJA BILIC [Resumed]

3 [The witness answered through interpreter]

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj: [Continued]

5 Q. Mrs. Bilic, did you live in Zagreb from 1991 to 1995?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. If not as a civil servant, as a native of Zagreb, perhaps, did

8 you hear that in the area of the fairgrounds in Velesajam in Zagreb,

9 there was a camp for detained civilians?

10 A. No, I don't know that.

11 Q. Do you know that the existence of that camp was notified for the

12 first time to the public by Dr. Zarko Puhovski, the professor of

13 university and president of the Helsinki Council?

14 A. No, I don't know about that, but from a few articles and press

15 releases. I'm not familiar with any other information about it.

16 Q. Well, if you are a ranking civil servant and have no information

17 about the existence of a camp for detained Serb civilians, through which

18 several thousand Serbs who lived in Zagreb had passed, then it doesn't

19 surprise me that you're not aware of the other 220 camps for Serbs in

20 Croatia.

21 Here again, Mr. Dutertre is jumping to his feet.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would ask Mr. Seselj to please

24 give us documents when he is quoting figures. Otherwise, you know, he's

25 speaking without any references, and we have absolutely no way to know

Page 11857

1 whether what he's saying is true or not.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj. Yesterday, I

3 told you, after the objection raised by the Prosecutor, that when you are

4 submitting that you have such-and-such information, please also give us

5 the source of this information. Tell us this is a report from

6 such-and-such professor, published on such-and-such date at such-and-such

7 place, country, and so on, just so we have an idea and so we know that

8 what you are saying might be backed by at least some kind of document,

9 because if need be, the Trial Chamber could refer to this document; and

10 the Prosecutor could also refer to it if he has additional questions to

11 ask. We're inviting you to do this.

12 Of course, you're not legally bound to disclose all these

13 documents to us.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the existence of

15 camps for Serb civilians from Zagreb in the area of the Zagreb Velesajam

16 fairgrounds is a notorious fact, has been notorious for more than a

17 decade. The witness says she's not aware of it. She may have read

18 something in the newspapers, but she doesn't know anything about it. Her

19 answer is perfectly satisfactory to me. It would be a problem for me if

20 she said, "Yes, I know that camp existed. It was within the jurisdiction

21 of the Ministry of the Interior or the Ministry of Justice. Our ministry

22 was not involved, but that thing existed," because all Zagreb natives and

23 locals know that it existed.

24 And now, Mr. President, to answer definitively to the objection

25 of Mr. Dutertre: If I were Prosecutor in this trial, I would have called

Page 11858

1 Savo Strbac, the president of the NGO Veritas, yesterday. I have never

2 met Savo Strbac in my life, but the Prosecution has been cooperating for

3 years with Savo Strbac and his NGO, Veritas, and have received enormous

4 quantities of material from them.

5 If I were Prosecutor and if I had listened to the

6 cross-examination yesterday, where the witness refers to information from

7 NGO Veritas, I would have immediately contacted Veritas yesterday and

8 asked, "Is this correct, is this true, is this accurate, can you give us

9 the material?" Why can't Mr. Dutertre address Mr. Milorad Buha,

10 president of the government of the Serbian Krajina in exile, because

11 Milorad Buha is a member of the Serb Radical Party and he would have

12 radically refused all contact with the OTP. So it doesn't surprise me

13 that the Prosecution doesn't contact him.

14 But you tied my ears, you blindfold me, you shut my mouth, you

15 block visits from my advisers, communications with my associates, you

16 block all dispatches by fax; and now you want me to provide documents.

17 Why would I have to? I have reliable information.

18 The Zagreb Velesajam fairgrounds was a camp through which several

19 thousand Serbs civilians from Zagreb had passed.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] As to the latest allegations of

22 Mr. Seselj on his communications, I would like to refer to what

23 Mr. Mundis said yesterday extremely clearly regarding this issue. As to

24 the rest, Mr. Seselj is mentioning Veritas; so if he wants to, it's up to

25 him to bring documents and present documents in order to help the Trial

Page 11859

1 Chamber decide in an informed fashion. If he wants to call this person

2 for his Defence, he can do that. You know, it's not up to the

3 Prosecution to do this in his place.

4 That's just a few observations I wanted to make.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Seselj, while you

6 were talking, I was wondering maybe, you know, when you are asking for

7 your -- were you're calling your witnesses, you might call this

8 Savo Strbac, the director of this Veritas NGO. It doesn't necessarily

9 have to be an exculpatory witness, it can also be a context witness, you

10 know, somebody that is useful to help establish the truth. You can

11 always call this witness if the Prosecutor decides it's not useful to

12 call him on his side.

13 But through your questions, you seem to indicate that there was a

14 detainee camp for Serbs in Zagreb. The witness says she has no knowledge

15 of this, so please continue.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then later she said she may

17 have read something in the newspapers, but nothing much. That was

18 approximately her answer.

19 Mr. President, it is not up to me to prove anything here. It is

20 my job to ask questions. I have certain information, and I don't even

21 have to tell you what my sources are. All I do is ask questions. My

22 questions may be the most stupid questions in the world, but I have the

23 right to them. I have that right, and I don't want to prove anything.

24 Let the Prosecution prove whatever they want.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you are entitled to

Page 11860

1 put questions, that's true. That's a right that you have by the Statute.

2 But I don't agree with you when you say that you're allowed to ask stupid

3 questions or silly questions. That's not true, because then, you know,

4 the issue is to provide you with counsel, because a counsel will not ask

5 silly questions. If a counsel is asking stupid questions or silly

6 questions, he's going to go against his code of ethics, and he might be

7 penalized for that. You don't -- you cannot be penalized, but you must

8 ask questions for your Defence. You're not here to waste our time.

9 As such, I don't believe that your question was stupid, to know

10 whether Serbs were detained in Zagreb or not. That is not fundamental

11 regarding this expert's competence and expertise, but it might provide us

12 with a general picture. However, she gave you her answer. Her answer is

13 what it was. Now, you take note of the answer, and either you pursue the

14 topic or you move on to something else.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, just one sentence,

16 Mr. President.

17 If lawyers were really barred from asking stupid or idiotic

18 questions, I assure you 80 per cent of advocates would have to leave the

19 ICTY. I don't want to name names, but I will -- in fact, I could give

20 you information about each one of them, and I could give you examples,

21 specific examples from transcript.

22 This threat that you will impose counsel on me doesn't bother me

23 anymore. I'm completely indifferent to that. You can't impose counsel

24 on me. You can try me in absentia, and that's it.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I did not say that

Page 11861

1 I was going to impose counsel on you. All I said was that when an

2 accused is actually asking only silly questions, then the issue is that

3 the solution might be to impose counsel on the accused. But here, we're

4 in a different situation. I never said that when you were asking this

5 question about Serbs being detained in Zagreb, that this question was

6 stupid. I never said that.

7 Please continue.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. You have

9 now assured me that I have not yet reached that degree.

10 Q. Ms. Bilic, is it true a that your ministry, when it keeps records

11 of missing persons, keeps a unified record of all missing persons who are

12 citizens of Croatia, regardless of whether they disappeared?

13 A. That is correct. My ministry keeps a unified record of all

14 missing citizens, that is, nationals of the Republic of Croatia, who went

15 missing in relation to the war and whose families submitted a request for

16 tracing.

17 Q. So what matters is for their families to submit a request?

18 A. This submission of a request for tracing by family is one of the

19 basic criteria enabling a person to enter the category of missing

20 persons.

21 Q. All right. So this list of yours, this list of missing persons,

22 includes all Croat soldiers, regular Croatian soldiers, who as part of

23 regular units of the Croatian Army were involved in the war in 1993

24 against Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and who were involved in 1995

25 in the war against Serbs especially in the Serbian Krajina, if they had

Page 11862

1 gone missing in those war activities?

2 A. It is the obligation, and that's in the decree of the government

3 of the Republic of Croatia, it's the obligation of the Administration for

4 Detainees and Missing Persons to search for all missing persons who went

5 missing and who are citizens of Croatia, regardless of the location of

6 their disappearance and the circumstances. According to that single

7 criterion and that principle, the Commission for Missing Persons in

8 Belgrade, which also has lists of missing persons, includes soldiers of

9 the JNA who went missing in Croatia, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, or any

10 other place. It is the obligation of the state to solve a case of its

11 missing citizen.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no objection

13 regarding what is being said. However, I heard something in French that

14 is not in the transcript, the fact that the research was done

15 independently of the ethnic background. I heard that in French, and it

16 didn't come in the English translation. Could we clarify this?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please specify this,

18 repeat exactly what you said regarding the ethnical background of the

19 people?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the Administration for Detainees

21 and Missing Persons searches for all missing citizens, regardless of

22 their origin, their nationality, their faith, and regardless of the side

23 they were on at the time of their disappearance.

24 Equally, the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons

25 searches for missing citizens, nationals of the Republic of Croatia who

Page 11863

1 went missing in the war, regardless of whether they disappeared in the

2 Republic of Croatia or, for example, there were cases of missing persons

3 who went missing in the territory of Serbia and in the territory of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. Ms. Bilic, when Tudjman's regime was established, and that was

6 sometime in May 1990, if my memory serves me well, shortly afterwards

7 that regime enabled all Croats, regardless of where they were living, be

8 it in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the US, or Canada, to obtain Croatian

9 citizenship if they wished?

10 A. I really don't know.

11 Q. Well, you have to know about this. Please don't tell me that you

12 don't know even this. All Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina

13 participated in the elections of Croatia, both presidential and

14 parliamentary elections, and they have a special electoral unit in

15 diaspora?

16 A. Yes, I know there is an electoral unit for the diaspora, but I'm

17 not aware that all Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina have the possibility

18 to participate in parliamentary elections in the Republic of Croatia.

19 But I know there is a special electoral unit for the diaspora.

20 Q. How come I know about these things better than you do? And all

21 these Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina who are citizens of the Republic

22 of Croatia, and they are -- they were included in the books of citizens

23 after the establishment of the Tudjman regime, if their family reports

24 their disappearance, they automatically come onto your list?

25 A. I can tell you that with the Administration for Detainees and

Page 11864

1 Missing Persons, we have records, and I may not be completely precise, of

2 requests for tracing of about 60 persons who went missing in the

3 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Do you have a paper saying that?

5 A. Not with me, unfortunately.

6 Q. You don't have it even in this paper, do you? And it's a very

7 important piece of information, because I believe the number is higher

8 than 60.

9 A. If you give me a little time to try to find an overview of

10 missing persons broken down by counties, which is part of the material I

11 provided, I am sure that in that overview there is an indication of the

12 number of persons who went missing outside the territory of Croatia. So

13 we can establish the exact number. Therefore, this figure does exist in

14 my -- in the additions to my report.

15 Q. Unfortunately, I don't have time to give you that time.

16 Tell me this: According to your official data, searches are

17 still going on for about a thousand or 1.100 people?

18 A. At the time I made my report, 1.076 persons were still being

19 searched for. Those were persons about whom information was collected in

20 the drive of 1994. 874 of them went missing in the Operation Storm,

21 which makes --

22 Q. Let us look at it separately, because it's separate in your

23 report. 874 -- how many Serbs did you say went missing in Operations

24 Storm and Flash?

25 A. In the military police Operations Flash and Storm, according to

Page 11865

1 tracing requests submitted by the families of missing persons, thus

2 according to the same criteria used by the ICRC, and the same criteria on

3 the basis of which the lists of missing persons were compiled in 1991 and

4 1992, at this time we have outstanding requests for tracing of 874

5 persons.

6 Q. Well, I asked you about the 874, and you gave me a whole lecture

7 to confirm that number. And how many did you say there were missing

8 persons in total until 1994 or as of 1994?

9 A. 1.076 at the time I made my report.

10 Q. How many of these are Serbs?

11 A. Sixty-four, if I remember correctly.

12 Q. Well, let it stand. Let's assume it's correct. So if you take

13 64 Serbs, it's 1.012 Croats and a few others, a few Czechs, Ukrainians

14 perhaps. It doesn't matter. But when you add this number of 64 to 874,

15 it's 938 missing Serbs, according to your official records.

16 Now, you are aware that according to official statistics, such as

17 the census of 1991, let's put aside the fact that I have grave doubts

18 about the validity of that 1991 census, there were about four and a half

19 million Croats living in Croatia? Do you know how many?

20 A. In 1991, as far as I know, according to the census, I think there

21 were less than four million people of Croatian nationality, but I really

22 have reservations about this. This is not my area of expertise.

23 Q. Never mind. Even I don't know everything by heart. Around four

24 million. And how many Serbs, according to official statistics, in 1991?

25 A. Again, take it with a grain of salt, but I suppose that it's

Page 11866

1 500.000 to 600.000.

2 Q. According to official statistics, it's 580.000. I usually round

3 it off. So there were seven to eight times more Croats than Serbs in the

4 area of Croatia. We'll ignore the category of Yugoslavs, which was a

5 form of Serb mimicry or a way to express mixed marriages.

6 But isn't it striking that if there were seven to eight times

7 more Croats in Croatia than Serbs, and if from this figure, 1.012, we

8 deduct the Croats who went missing in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

9 and we deduct the members of these ethnic minorities, according to your

10 official records an equal number of Croats as Serbs are still missing.

11 Isn't that striking? Shouldn't that be proportionate to the population

12 numbers? Try to answer it with a "yes" or "no" so we can move on.

13 A. Well, this is such a complex question that I can't answer it with

14 a "yes" or "no." It's impossible.

15 I'd like to emphasise two things here. First, the data we are

16 talking about reflect the current situation, and the number of missing

17 persons of Serb and Croat ethnicity is much higher than the figures we

18 presented. In fact, it was much higher than the figures we presented,

19 because such a large number of cases have been solved.

20 Just let me finish. I find it very important to say the next

21 thing concerning the comparison and the proportions between various

22 categories of population, compared to the 1991 census.

23 Statistically, such a comparison would not be justified. It

24 would not be justified. But what would be justified would be to take

25 into account the number and ethnic composition in areas that were

Page 11867

1 affected by the war, not the territory of the Republic of Croatia as a

2 whole.

3 Q. Well, that's something else. I fully understand you. However,

4 if the number of missing Croats was far higher than you managed to solve

5 those cases, the number of missing Croats then corresponded to the number

6 of Serbs reported, and many Serbian families didn't want to report that

7 their family members were missing, well, could that mean that you were

8 far more expeditious and diligent when it came to locating missing Croats

9 than when it came to locating missing Serbs, or is something else at

10 stake?

11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry. Let's -- before you answer the

12 question just put by Mr. Seselj, I'd like to clear up one thing with you,

13 because I think you started out by saying that the Administration for

14 Detainees and Missing Persons only registered Croatian nationals that had

15 gone missing; and now it seems that apparently Serbian missing persons

16 were also registered. So I just want to be sure whether the authorities

17 of Croatia took upon themselves not only to register missing Croats, but

18 also registering persons of other ethnicities, like Hungarians, or Serbs,

19 or Bosnians.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Administration for Detainees

21 and Missing Persons kept records of all citizens of the Republic of

22 Croatia, regardless of their ethnicity. So that included Croats, Serbs,

23 Hungarians, all the citizens of the Republic of Croatia who had gone

24 missing in the course of the war. Records were kept regardless of their

25 nationality. Records were kept on the basis of the same criteria.

Page 11868

1 If I can now answer Mr. Seselj's question --

2 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, when you refer to the

3 Republic of Croatia, are you talking about the republic that was part of

4 the federal Yugoslav state or are you referring about the current

5 republic and its current borders?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or is it the same? It doesn't

7 matter what she has in mind, since the borders are identical.

8 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, things are quite clear

10 for me, but I believe that there may remain some level of doubt.

11 You talked about the way that people were registered as missing

12 persons, and you said that all Croatian nationals were registered,

13 without any distinction being made in terms of their ethnicity. In other

14 words, the thousand Serbs mentioned by Mr. Seselj who went missing, these

15 Serbs were Croatian nationals, they were Serbs living in Croatia and

16 nationals of Croatia; is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. Yes, that's what I

19 thought.

20 In order to try and save time, it appears, out of all the

21 questions put to you by the Defence, that as of today we have roughly the

22 same number of Croats missing as Serbs, so we would roughly be talking

23 about the same figure, 1.000 Serbs, 1.000 Croats; would you agree with

24 that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite possible at this point

Page 11869

1 in time -- or, rather, it's quite possible right now that there are more

2 missing Croats, that the difference in the numbers of Serbs and Croats

3 missing is not that great right now.

4 However, for the sake of being objective and to give you a full

5 picture of the situation, I would like to point out that the number of

6 individuals who were registered as missing in the Republic of Croatia,

7 well, there were far more of them who were Croatian nationality than

8 there were of Serbian nationality. But at this point in time, as you

9 said, these figures are very similar.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you now answer the

11 question Mr. Seselj put to you initially?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj said that the families

13 of missing Serbs didn't want to report the fact that family members of

14 theirs had gone missing to the Croatian authorities. They didn't have to

15 do so. They didn't have to report the fact to the Croatian authorities,

16 if they didn't want to. But in such cases, the families would submit

17 requests to locate missing individuals to the International Red Cross.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not my question.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And all these requests to locate

20 them were entered into our records. So even those families that did not

21 contact the Croatian authorities, if the missing family members were the

22 responsibility of the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons,

23 well, this administration would have them on their records. It's

24 important. One has to understand that these records were complete, they

25 were full.

Page 11870

1 In addition to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the

2 families --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

4 Q. That has nothing to do with my question. You're wasting my time.

5 I wouldn't mind if you were wasting the Judges' time or the Prosecution's

6 time, but you're wasting my time.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll move on to the second part of

8 your question, because it was a conclusion.

9 As far as your question is concerned, well, I can tell you that

10 last year and the year before that year, the Administration for Detainees

11 and Missing Persons has completed the process of locating an identical

12 number of individuals of Croatian nationality and individuals of Serbian

13 nationality.

14 However, until the time that we had information on missing

15 individuals of Serbian nationality, until that time, until we had good

16 information that would help us to find them, we couldn't solve the cases.

17 Since information has been obtained, since exhumations have been carried

18 out and body remains have been identified, well, since that time the

19 number of solved cases with regard to missing Croats is about identical

20 to the number of solved cases for missing Serbs.

21 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Ms. Bilic, in the course of the proofing, you said that your

23 access to the archives within your ministry wasn't complete, wasn't full,

24 it wasn't unlimited. There's a part of the archives that contains some

25 very sensitive information that you don't have access to; is that

Page 11871

1 correct?

2 A. I said that I had almost unlimited access to the archives.

3 Q. But not unlimited access?

4 A. I don't even have to have totally unlimited access to the

5 archives. I have access to the part of the archives that's important for

6 me, as the head of the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons.

7 Q. Tell me, what is it that is so sensitive, so confidential, that

8 prevents you, as a high-ranking civil servant, from having access to such

9 information, and Ivan Grujic, the Colonel Ivan Grujic, has access to

10 that? He's now been promoted to the rank of brigadier general; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Well, as I have said, my access to the archives is mostly

13 unlimited.

14 Q. Please answer my question. What kind of material is so sensitive

15 that you don't have access to it?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.

17 Witness, do not beat about the bush, please. Apparently, during

18 the proofing session with the Prosecutor, you told him that you were not

19 able to have access to some sensitive archives. Mr. Seselj took note of

20 that. He's putting a question to you about this, and it's very

21 straightforward. Were you allowed to have access to all of the archives,

22 or is it the case that you were not able to have access to some archives

23 that may have been off limits because they were classified and secret

24 archives? Could you please very candidly about this?

25 You took the oath. You said that you were going to tell the

Page 11872

1 truth and nothing but the truth. It's very important for us to know

2 whether you had access to everything or only to part of the archives.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have access to the majority of

4 documents contained in the archives. I don't have access to some

5 documents. But it's not necessary for me to have access to such

6 documents, given the work I do. But since I don't have access to those

7 documents, I don't know really know what the contents of those documents

8 are.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a very simple case.

10 As part of your work, let's assume you want to have access to

11 documents related to the army. Are you entitled to go to the Croatian

12 Ministry of Defence and have a look into their archives? This is a very

13 specific question I'm asking you. What do you have to answer?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not go to the Ministry of

15 Defence to familiarise myself with my -- with their archives, but there

16 can be an official request that can have a certain level of

17 confidentiality, in which I can explain the reasons for which I need

18 access to some parts of the archives. And in such request, I can ask

19 them to provide me with the relevant documents.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me take a very specific

21 example. Let's assume that a Serb family in Belgrade gets in touch with

22 the relevant administration, telling them, "We have a relative who

23 disappeared in Croatia. He was detained in a camp run by the military."

24 You said that this would go through the ICRC and that you would then be

25 notified. So you are notified of this particular case. You are notified

Page 11873

1 of the fact that this individual was detained in a military camp. What

2 do you do in such a case?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I submit a request to the relevant

4 ministry for access with regard to the case in question.

5 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Since you say that you don't know anything about the contents of

7 the sensitive part of the archives that you don't have access to, well,

8 since that's what you say, I will now provide you with information; and

9 then tell me what you think about it.

10 The sensitive and confidential part of the archives, to which

11 only Colonel Ivan Grujic has access, contains information on the

12 exhumation of Serbs who were killed and who were located in 135 graves;

13 and it also contains information on how one artificially reduced the

14 number of victims in Pakracka Poljana and Malino Selo, for example.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

16 Mr. Dutertre.

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Objection, for the following

18 reason. The witness stated that since she did not have access to these

19 documents, obviously she has no idea what they are; so I do not quite see

20 how she could answer such a speculative question.

21 And, furthermore, we do not know how Mr. Seselj would be,

22 himself, aware of the nature of these documents. This is a very

23 speculative question, and we have nothing telling us that these documents

24 are the ones described by Mr. Seselj.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've interrupted the accused

Page 11874

1 as he was putting his question to the witness. Let's wait for him to

2 finish his question to decide whether it's a speculative question or not.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this isn't an ordinary

4 witness who knows or doesn't know certain things. This is an expert who

5 has to know everything. Not only does she have to know things that

6 Mr. Dutertre doesn't know, but also things that I don't know. One can

7 ask this expert for her expert opinion. This isn't a witness that

8 speculates. It's a witness that can reflect and think, and she thinks in

9 a far better manner than Mr. Dutertre. I'm quite happy about the way she

10 thinks.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please refrain from making

12 personal attacks against this or that person, but put your question to

13 the witness. Your question may be relevant, but we need to know what it

14 is.

15 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'm just providing you with a few examples out of the 135 graves

17 in Pakracka Poljana and Malino Selo, which is in Western Slavonia, from

18 October 1991 up until March 1992. Over 300 Serb civilians were killed,

19 and your ministry has reduced this number 15-fold, and secret information

20 on how many bodies were actually found is in the hands of Ivan Grujic and

21 no one else. So the traces are lost of these others.

22 And for another example, when it comes to the exhumation of

23 Serbs, Serbian civilians who were shot in the Medak Pocket in 1986, and

24 then we have Gospic, where over 200 Serbs -- almost 200 Serbs were

25 killed. The figure is slightly lower. And you officially say that only

Page 11875

1 11 Serbian bodies were exhumed there. We're talking about Gospic now.

2 That was in October 1991, roughly speaking. That's when they were

3 killed.

4 And then we have cases in many other places. One striking

5 example is that many Serbian civilians were killed in Osijek, and

6 Ivan Grujic was the local head of the State Security Service. That's

7 what it was called at the time. First it was State Security and then the

8 name was changed. The bodies of Serbs, in September and December 1991,

9 of Serbs who were killed in Sarvas and Paulin Dvor, near Osijek. Osijek,

10 Your Honours, is on the eastern edges, the estuary of the Drava and

11 Danube. The bodies of Serbs killed in Paulin Dvor and Sarvas were found

12 on Velebit in a place called Rizvanusa. Are you familiar with this, with

13 the fact that the bodies of Serbs killed in Osijek were found on Velebit?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre.

15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No, I thought that Mr. Seselj was

16 testifying. I was expecting a question, but he has finally put a

17 question.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj has put a

19 question to you. Please provide an answer, because we're dealing here

20 with the very heart of the matter.

21 The case of Mr. Seselj is that in your report, you give a number

22 of Serbs that were killed, and he's given us a series of examples to

23 illustrate the fact that according to him, many more Serbs were killed.

24 What do you have to answer?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my report, there is information

Page 11876

1 on all individuals who were exhumed and identified, individuals who were

2 also of Serbian origin. I'm familiar with the exhumation on Rizvanusa.

3 It's in my report as well. And victims from Paulin Dvor were found

4 there, 17 of them. The institution I work in carried out the exhumation

5 of the remains in Rizvanusa and identified the remains using the DNA

6 method of analysis, and this institution organised the funeral of all

7 those remains in accordance with their families' wishes.

8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Very well. I appreciate what you did, but Osijek is at the

10 estuary of the river of Drava and Dunav; is that correct?

11 A. More or less.

12 Q. And Rizvanusa is on Velebit, to the west of Lika, in the western

13 part of Lika; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And the distance, as the crow flies, is -- well, what would it

16 be, about 400 kilometres, perhaps more?

17 A. Well, about 400 kilometres.

18 Q. About 400 kilometres. So someone from Osijek or Paulin Dvor and

19 Sarvas near Osijek transported the Serbian bodies to conceal them on

20 Velebit, which is very difficult to have access to; and the bodies were

21 found. But the bodies of about 200 Serbs killed near Gospic still

22 haven't been found; is that correct? The bodies of the Serbs killed in

23 Osijek were found when this suited the regime for political reasons,

24 because they wanted to deal with Branimir Glavas, who they didn't favour

25 for political reasons, although he was one of the main persons

Page 11877

1 responsible for those eliminations. But the bodies of the victims of

2 military personnel who were in support of the regime haven't been found.

3 So that's why some victims have been found and in other cases the bones

4 found were destroyed. Am I right in saying this?

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is a compound question.

6 Could it be divided up into a number of other questions?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a very long question,

8 it's a very complex question, but let me summarise it.

9 According to Mr. Seselj, the bodies of those were not following

10 the political line of the regime are found, but the bodies of the others

11 are not to be found. What do you have to answer?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, in the question

13 put to me by Mr. Seselj, information on victims was mentioned,

14 information on victims of Serbian ethnicity, and this isn't supported by

15 the documents.

16 I'm not denying that people of Serbian ethnicity were killed,

17 but, however, in Gospic a grave was exhumed, a grave in which the remains

18 of 18 bodies were found. In the Medak Pocket, another grave was exhumed

19 and the remains of 11 individuals were found there. In Pakracka Poljana,

20 Mr. Seselj, in 1995 a grave was exhumed in which the remains of

21 19 individuals were found. And this shows that the Croatian authorities,

22 the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons, carried out

23 exhumations wherever they established that there might be graves, and

24 this was regardless of the ethnic origins of the bodies of the people in

25 those graves.

Page 11878

1 There was nothing done for political reasons when it comes to

2 exhuming remains, body remains. These remains were exhumed as soon as

3 information was obtained about the possibility that there might be mass

4 or individual graves at certain sites, and this was the case in all

5 cases.

6 Q. But you don't know what the secret part of the archives in your

7 ministry contains, the part of the archives you don't have access to.

8 That's why your answer can't be complete.

9 Please, could you tell me how much more time I have at my

10 disposal so that I can plan for my cross-examination?

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will tell you shortly. 17

12 minutes.

13 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Your ministry also became involved in the ideological process of

15 rehabilitating the Ustasha movement, and they became involved with

16 identifying it with a movement in the course -- the parties and movement

17 in the course of the Second World War. You did this by exhuming the

18 remains of Ustashas who were killed in the Second World War, and you

19 buried them -- or they were buried again with certain honours; is that

20 correct?

21 A. My ministry wasn't responsible for exhumations that date back to

22 the Second World War, exhumation of bodies killed in the Second World

23 War. However, given a particular decision of the government of Croatia,

24 we were made responsible for exhuming certain remains, in technical

25 terms, in order to take permanent care of certain remains. The

Page 11879

1 administration did this whenever the government of Croatia issued such

2 decisions. And I'll repeat, this was done regardless of the ethnic

3 origins of the victims concerned.

4 Q. Listen to me carefully now, please. The independent state of

5 Croatia, together with the Pavelic Ustasha regime, which acted as

6 Hitler's satellite, sent 10.000 Ustasha volunteers to the Eastern Front

7 as part of the so-called Croatian Legion. The Croatian Legion was routed

8 at Stalingrad and the majority of its members were killed there. 16

9 Ustasha from that Croatian Legion died or were killed with a group of

10 Italian soldiers.

11 One division, more or less, was at the Eastern Front, and as the

12 Italian military authorities collected their victims or exchanged -- or

13 did an exchange for them and transported their remains to Rome, as they

14 did this, they also took with them the remains of 16 Ustasha and buried

15 them at the Roman cemetery, Cimitero Del Verano.

16 And you, Ms. Bilic, together with Ivan Grujic, in 2007, on the

17 20th of December, 2007, went to Rome to take possession of the remains of

18 these 16 Croatian soldiers, the remains that were in small boxes, and you

19 transported them to Croatia. Religious rites were also performed on this

20 occasion; is that correct? I have a document to this effect. I'm

21 constantly being asked for documents, and I got this from the internet;

22 and I even have a photograph.

23 Mr. Dutertre has been provided with a copy. Why doesn't he look

24 for it on the internet himself?

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what is the relevance

Page 11880

1 of this question with respect to the case, as submitted to the Trial

2 Chamber?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I explain what

4 the relevance is?

5 In Belgrade, in the center of town, at the new town cemetery,

6 there's a special French military grave where several hundred French

7 soldiers, who were killed in the First World War, were buried. There is

8 also a Soviet military grave there, and Russian soldiers who were killed

9 in the Second World War, Russian soldiers fighting for the liberation of

10 Belgrade, they were buried there. This cemetery is very beautiful, if we

11 can describe a cemetery in this way. No one ever had the idea of moving

12 these French or Russian soldiers back to their homelands, because they

13 were buried in Belgrade with dignity.

14 Italy is a civilised country, and it has its own military grave.

15 Cimitero Del Verano is a cemetery which has a nice military grave. 16

16 Croatian soldiers, Ustashas, were also buried there. They were killed at

17 the Eastern Front. They happened to be with the Italian soldiers who

18 were killed, and they were transported there together.

19 And after so much time has passed, a government, which is very

20 similar to the Ustasha government from the Second World War, in terms of

21 its programme and ideology, has the idea of requesting that the remains

22 of 16 Ustasha be moved back from Rome to Croatia. This tells us a lot

23 about the character of the government, about the ideology of the ministry

24 that Ms. Bilic currently works for.

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I don't see the relevance of this

Page 11881

1 question.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Bilic, he says you went

3 to Rome, so what do you answer to this? I mean, we are here dealing with

4 the credibility of the witness, so what do you say to this?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see from my CV, in 2002

6 I was appointed member of the Joint Commission for the Implementation of

7 the Contract between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Italy,

8 related to the casualties of World War II; and it is precisely on that

9 basis, as a member of the Joint Commission, that I, together with other

10 members of that commission, was notified about the mortal remains of 16

11 citizens of the Republic of Croatia that the Republic of Italy brought to

12 Italy from Russia; and it was Italy that suggested we take over these

13 mortal remains because they were the remains of people originating from

14 Croatia. So these were the conclusions of a joint commission established

15 by an agreement between two states, two governments, those of Croatia and

16 Italy, and it was the realisation of one of the conclusions of that

17 meeting.

18 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. If you had already started to implement these

20 conclusions, did you exhume Italian citizens who were killed in the area

21 of Dalmatia towards the end of the war, when around 300.000 Italians were

22 killed or executed?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Madam Bilic, I

24 have a follow-up question.

25 It seems that contrary to what Mr. Seselj is stating, it is not

Page 11882

1 Croatia who went to get the 16 mortal remains, but it is upon a request

2 by Italy that you actually went there. The Italians initiated the

3 transfer. Obviously, this is what you're saying on page 27, line 4. And

4 you can this within the framework of an agreement between Italy and

5 Croatia. It seems to me it was the Italians that said, "We have 16

6 bodies. Please come and get them." Is that the way it occurred, or is

7 it Croatia who said, "We know that there are 16 Croat nationals buried in

8 Rome, and we would like the mortal remains of these 16 people"? Who

9 initiated the whole proceeding?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The notification on the mortal

11 remains of these 16 persons was received from the Italian side, and it

12 was their proposal that the Republic of Croatia take over these mortal

13 remains, which was done.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Mr. Seselj, contrary to what you are stating, obviously the

16 witness is saying the opposite of what you're stating.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's her job to say the

18 opposite of what I'm saying, Mr. President. And when she's not able to,

19 she will go on spinning her yarn.

20 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we're not here to

21 try Croatia or to try the ideology of Croatia and so forth. I really do

22 not see the relevance of this line of questioning.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sometimes, to be quite frank,

24 Madam Lattanzi, I forget who is on trial here, because looking at all the

25 witnesses who have been here, and the evidence led, it always seems to me

Page 11883

1 that I'm the Prosecutor here and the representatives of the OTP are

2 actually defending the interests of my Serbian opponents in the past

3 civil wars.

4 But let me use the few remaining minutes.

5 Q. Do you know, Ms. Bilic, that between 1991 and 1995 --

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This is totally unacceptable.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that

8 personally, I really hate the Prosecution attacking Defence or Defence

9 attacking the Prosecution. We're here to try and find out what happened.

10 We have a report which was drafted by an expert witness. This

11 report is challenged by -- at least some of the aspects of this report

12 are challenged by the Defence, and credibility of the author of the

13 report is also challenged. And the Judges need to know whether the data

14 included in the report is reliable. We need to know that in order to

15 draw our conclusions.

16 So I'm asking Mr. Seselj and the Prosecution to focus on what is

17 in the indictment, and only on what is in the indictment.

18 Continue, Mr. Seselj.

19 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Ms. Bilic, here come a few easier questions, so relax.

21 Do you know that between 1991 and 1995, on several occasions

22 there were negotiations between the representatives of the government of

23 the Serbian Krajina and the government of the Republic of Croatia on

24 mutual exchanges of the dead; do you know that?

25 A. I know that in that period between 1991 and 1995, there were

Page 11884

1 negotiations that discussed, among other things, deliveries and

2 hand-overs of mortal remains.

3 Q. Do you know that only in one case, in 1994, the Croatian

4 authorities turned over to the authorities of Serbian Krajina 70 Serbian

5 civilians, that is, bodies of Serbian civilians who had been exhumed in

6 the territory of Zagreb in 1994? Were you familiar with that?

7 A. No, I was not.

8 Q. And do you know that at these meetings, they also agreed about

9 exchanging living civilians? For instance, the government of the Serbian

10 Krajina would look through the lists and search for detainees in Croatian

11 camps, and Croatian authorities would look for their own nationals

12 detained by Serbian authorities? Do you know there have been such

13 exchanges of civilians?

14 A. I know there had been negotiations on exchanges, and there were

15 exchanges of persons held by one or the other side.

16 Q. Thank you for this brief answer. Do you know that the competent

17 commission of the Republic of Croatia, led by Ivan Grujic, participated

18 also in exchanges between the warring sides in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 Those were exchanges of prisoners, exchanges of bodies, and exchanges of

20 detained civilians.

21 A. I know about that, and the then Commission for Detainees and

22 Missing Persons was involved in the exchanges of prisoners and takeovers

23 of mortal remains when the persons involved were from the Republic of

24 Croatia.

25 Q. But there have also been detained civilians who were actually

Page 11885

1 treated as hostages. One side would detain a certain number of civilians

2 from the other side, and the other side would detain the same number, and

3 then they bargain about an exchange?

4 A. In exchanges of civilians in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I actually

5 can't think of a single case.

6 Q. But you do have information about exchanges of civilians between

7 the Serbian Krajina and Croatia?

8 A. Well, I know, for instance, in the prison in Knin, there were

9 villages of Marinovici, there were indisputably civilians. I know of

10 several such cases where civilians were held in prison and were

11 exchanged, because they had been in prisons in Beli Manastir, Knin,

12 Glina, a whole series of locations.

13 Q. But civilians on the opposite side, that is, your side, had also

14 been held in prisons or improvised prisons, camps. You did not open --

15 make an announcement in the newspapers for Serbian civilians to come up

16 and then be exchanged for Croats held in Serbian Krajina?

17 A. This is a very leading question, and I cannot answer it this way.

18 Q. But I'm entitled to leading questions, aren't I? You know that,

19 do you?

20 Why am I asking that? Because Berislav Pusic, for instance, is

21 on trial here, who as representative of Herceg-Bosna participated in

22 exchanges of prisoners, civilians, and detainees; whereas Colonel

23 Ivan Grujic is not on trial anywhere for exchanges of civilians. That is

24 against the law, because civilians cannot be taken as hostages, according

25 to international law, and even Ivan Grujic was involved in taking

Page 11886

1 civilians hostages and even exchanging them for the other side.

2 A. As I said in my earlier answers, people were exchanged when they

3 had been held by one or the other side. Concerning the Republic of

4 Croatia, I said very explicitly that I know not of a single case of

5 exchanges of civilians with Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the then

6 Commission and now Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons was

7 involved. So these claims that Colonel Grujic had been involved in the

8 taking of hostages and exchanging of civilians are not correct, are not

9 accurate.

10 Q. Colonel Grujic confirmed in the Milosevic trial, the Mrksic

11 trial, and other trials, I believe, Martic included, that he had been

12 involved in negotiating such exchanges; and I have information, for

13 instance, that he had personally been in Livno for one round of such

14 negotiations, and you don't know that?

15 A. If you tell me approximately at what time this happened --

16 Q. The transcript only mentions negotiations in Livno, but

17 unfortunately even I don't know the date, because the Prosecution had to

18 give me the transcript of the examination of Ivan Grujic. He had been

19 planned as an expert witness here, but he was so badly compromised that

20 they had to switch. That's why you were so hastily taken as his

21 replacement. You know that, don't you? Do you know that?

22 A. As for Colonel Grujic having been supposed to testify, I think

23 that's the question you should ask the Prosecution.

24 Q. All right. But you were produced here with such haste, as

25 Grujic's replacement, that you had to write your expert report in great

Page 11887

1 haste, and from the last expert report of Ivan Grujic, you copied the

2 entire passages. I took the trouble of actually reading them and

3 comparing them both, and underlining the passages that were copied.

4 A. I did not prepare my report in haste. I had ample time. It is a

5 fact that the text of Deputy Minister Grujic is largely identical to the

6 text of the report that I sent to the OTP, which is both justified and

7 expected, because the report describes the methodology of our work, the

8 results, and the status of our records. If you take that into account,

9 it would be very odd if the reports were different.

10 Q. Reports cannot differ significantly in figures and data. But if

11 you take whole sentences and paragraphs, then that would be plagiarizing,

12 because Grujic's report is his author work and yours is yours. But I

13 found whole passages pasted from Grujic's report in your report. That's

14 plagiarism. Is that punishable in Croatia? In Serbia, you could be

15 sentenced to prison. If you copied somebody's intellectual product and

16 published it, that is approximately the legal provision, you would be

17 sentenced to up to one year imprisonment.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Bilic, I'm not talking

19 about plagiarism here, but when the OTP commissioned you to draft this

20 expert report, I guess that you had asked for Mr. Grujic's report, and

21 you drafted your own report using Mr. Grujic's report as a base. Is this

22 what you did? Did you read Mr. Grujic's report beforehand?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct. I compiled my

24 report based on the report of the deputy minister, Colonel Grujic, and

25 all the passages that remain unchanged, that is, those that relate to

Page 11888

1 organisational aspects, the collection of information on missing persons,

2 exhumations and identification, all those passages that are identical

3 have been mostly taken over, as such, and put in my report. There was no

4 need to change them because, as I said, they describe our methodology of

5 work. All the new questions that the Prosecution included and asked me

6 to cover in my report are there. All the data has been updated and

7 included.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have two

9 minutes left.

10 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

11 Q. But in that case, Ivan Grujic is your co-author, at least, which

12 gives me the right to cross-examine him as well as you.

13 Here, I found one page of the transcript in the Mrksic trial

14 where Colonel Grujic confirms. That's page 10312, where Colonel Grujic

15 confirms he had participated in exchanges of civilians between Croatia

16 and Serbian Krajina and between the warring sides in Bosnia.

17 That is information that I wanted to put to you, but I have no

18 further questions, Ms. Bilic?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

20 Mr. Dutertre, any redirect?

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'll try to be as short as

22 possible.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, because we have a break at

24 10.00. It would be good to finish by 10.00, because we have another

25 witness waiting.

Page 11895

1 Q. Ms. Paulic, when were you born, and how long did you live there?

2 A. I was born on the 1st of April, 1956, and I lived there

3 permanently up until 1992.

4 Q. Where?

5 A. In Hrtkovci.

6 Q. What's your ethnicity?

7 A. I am a Croat.

8 Q. Where do you currently live?

9 A. I live in Zagreb, where I exchanged my house. That's where I

10 exchanged a house.

11 Q. What was your occupation and employment in Hrtkovci?

12 A. I was involved in agricultural labour for a while, until we built

13 a house, and then I opened up my own shop in my very own house. So I ran

14 a shop.

15 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of Hrtkovci in 19 -- until 1992?

16 A. Up until 1992, well, briefly, I would put it like this: It was

17 super. There was no stress. We got on well. We had lunch at each

18 other's places. We celebrated Easter and Christmas, et cetera, together.

19 Everything was excellent.

20 Q. So can you give us an estimate of the different ethnic group in

21 Hrtkovci at that time?

22 A. At the time, there were a lot of Croats, Hungarians. They had

23 been there for a long time because the village is an old one. There were

24 Hungarians and Germans. The Germans were expelled, the Hungarians stayed

25 on. Serbs from Slavonia moved in. Bosnians and Dalmatians moved in.

Page 11896

1 People from Lika moved in. They were all in the minority. Croats were

2 the majority, and there were somewhat fewer Hungarians than there were

3 Croats.

4 Q. You say that everything was excellent. When -- this relationship

5 changed, and when?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. When did this change?

8 A. Well, the relationship started changing when the war broke out in

9 Croatia. Shortly afterwards, after Vukovar, people from Slavonia started

10 arriving, various strangers started arriving in the village. They acted

11 in a disruptive manner in the village. They made everyone nervous.

12 That's when things started.

13 Q. When did you start hearing people talking about ethnic cleansing?

14 A. Well, since I ran a shop, my neighbour who lived across the road,

15 Slavko Mirazic, who was a calm boy, to tell you the truth; but he started

16 spreading rumours according to which the Croats didn't know what was

17 waiting for them, that there would be ethnic cleansing, and then he had a

18 list of those who would be leaving. Those were the words used, and

19 that's the first I heard about it.

20 Q. What was the ethnicity of this Slavko Mirazic?

21 A. A Serb, a Serb. Both his father and mother were Serbs.

22 Q. Did he belong to any political party?

23 A. Yes. He would always boast that he belonged to Seselj parties,

24 that he knew him.

25 Q. How do you know he belonged to this party? He told you?

Page 11897

1 A. That's what he said, yes. He said that. He would come to my

2 shop, and he used those very words.

3 Q. You say that as the war was spreading in Croatia, there was

4 this -- the refugees start -- people from East Slavonia start to arrive

5 in your village. How many refugees would you estimate arrived in

6 Hrtkovci in 1992?

7 A. Well, look, it's very difficult to give you a number, because

8 this occurred on a daily basis. They would move around in groups. There

9 would be four or five of them together, sometimes ten of them together,

10 sometimes four of them in a group. It depended on the kind of groups

11 they formed, but this was a daily and continual occurrence.

12 Q. Were they organised in some way or they arrived on initiative --

13 their initiative?

14 A. I believe that they were organised, because initially they moved

15 around. Well, they were most interested in large houses, to start with.

16 They weren't really interested in small houses. They were interested in

17 large houses, and that's where they would go. That's what they would

18 attack. I can provide you with a few examples.

19 They'd come to me, and I also know the lady across the road, not

20 exactly across the road; but to my right there was an old granny who

21 lived there. Her son was in Germany, and naturally a new house was

22 built. It was a new house full of everything, lots of tools. There was

23 lots of furniture and other things in the house. The old lady died and

24 the son remained in Germany. The son had to sell the house. He sold the

25 house to a man and woman who also lived abroad, and they would come,

Page 11898

1 well, occasionally. They'd spend a few days in the house. They returned

2 to Hungary, a bit of the weekend remained. At the time the Serbs

3 arrived, they moved into the house. They did that overnight. They

4 opened the house up and they moved in.

5 Someone reported this to the couple. They told them that people

6 had moved into the house. They returned then. The lady reported the

7 fact to the police there, and she wasn't able to achieve anything through

8 this means. She came to my shop and she told me that she was looking for

9 a few dresses.

10 Q. When did it happen, this event?

11 A. Before Seselj arrived.

12 Q. When did Seselj arrive in Hrtkovci, just to have a clear idea?

13 A. That was when these people were involved in the attacks. That's

14 what I'm talking about. She literally asked me to let her go to the

15 toilet, to let her use my toilet, because she couldn't enter her own

16 house, and she didn't gain access to her house.

17 Q. Were these Serb refugees viewing only houses or other people in

18 Hrtkovci or businesses as well, like shops or factories?

19 A. That's correct. I had my shop, my own shop. Naturally,

20 Zdenko Barisic also had his own shop. He also worked in the local

21 commune as a secretary in the local commune. The case was the same for

22 him. The people who were called out, well, they were all in power.

23 But people were interested in large houses. My uncle has a

24 small, miniature house, so he wasn't affected. But we were, because we

25 had big houses. When I say "a big house," I don't know what you consider

Page 11899

1 to be a big house, but they were big houses.

2 Q. Did you receive any visit from any of the refugees in your shop?

3 A. Oh, yes, many.

4 Q. When, and what they told you?

5 A. It was like this: When you enter the shop, there was a sort of

6 storage space to the left. They would sometimes open it up and say,

7 "Well, it's good, that could be ours." They said it's better to go there

8 with a bag. They used a local word for "bag." They said, "It's better

9 for you to go out like this than leave with a bag in your hand." Well,

10 that, in effect, meant you should leave, you should go.

11 I could go on about these people for an entire day, but I'll

12 select a number of examples.

13 There was someone called Jovo. He was tall, wore a beard, and he

14 would bring these people in. And on one occasion, he appeared on his

15 own. I remember that well. It's as if it happened yesterday. It was on

16 a Sunday. I was working on my own. My employee had the day off. I was

17 working there alone. There was a long queue. When I saw him, I was

18 afraid, naturally. I served the customers, I don't know how. It doesn't

19 even matter. When it was his turn, I mustered all my courage and briefly

20 asked him, "How can I help you?" He was a customer, but I knew why he

21 was there. He said he wasn't going to buy anything. He said the

22 following: He said, "Madam, I admit that I'm bringing other people in

23 here to exchange houses. You should leave your house. Well, I have a

24 house in Zagreb, so it would be better for you to go to Zagreb. Zagreb

25 is the capital," and so on and so forth. He said I should go to Zagreb.

Page 11900

1 I then mustered all my courage, or the courage just appeared of its own

2 accord, and then I told him quite clearly and loudly, "What kind of a man

3 are you? Look at yourself. You have come here to expel me and to talk

4 to me. Go and see my husband." My husband was in the center. "Go and

5 see him," I told him, "and speak to him about this." And he really did

6 go away, and he found my husband, and he told my husband, "Your wife is

7 someone to be reckoned with. She expelled me."

8 There were other incidents. On one occasion, my employee was

9 working there. I'd gone to town to pay something in the bank, to pay

10 some bills. My husband went away to collect some goods, because he was

11 working with me at the time. The shop was doing well. The employee was

12 also working. Then a group attacked the shop, another group attacked the

13 door, the door that I used to enter my house. They wanted to come in.

14 They swore a bit. We're talking about a married woman, and when I say

15 they swore a bit, they cursed. This married woman, she wanted to defend

16 herself. They told her, "What do you know?" Her younger son is in the

17 ZNG. The ZNG didn't even exist there, how can a child who goes to the

18 seventh class and is 14 years old be a member of the ZNG? She didn't

19 allow this to happen. She quickly contacted her husband and told him to

20 come. She said that there was some strangers there. That's what we

21 called them. He appeared. They left, and they said they would be back,

22 but they probably saw him and didn't return.

23 Q. Did you -- did you receive any phone calls concerning the threats

24 that --

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 11901

1 Q. Can you describe? Can you describe?

2 A. I can, I can. Since I use the phone a lot because of the shop,

3 well, it was early evening I left the receiver -- well, it might be

4 difficult to describe this for you because you are not familiar with the

5 Zagreb dialect and Serbian dialects; but I'll explain this for you. I'll

6 quote this person. He said, "Look after your child, take care of your

7 child. We'll come now." But in Serbia, they say, "Look after your

8 child." "Dete" is the word used, not "dijete," "because we'll come now."

9 Again, I mustered my courage and I said, "Come, come, just you come and

10 we'll see." What else could I have said?

11 But he threatened me -- this is an assumption of mine, not a

12 conclusion; but I think he threatened to do something to my younger

13 child, because he was in the seventh grade, and the older child was not

14 staying at home. I told my husband about what had occurred. He reported

15 it to the police, and the police said, "What can we do? You should

16 disconnect the phone." He said, "I can't disconnect the phone. We need

17 the phone." My husband said then, "I'll deal with this person." And the

18 police said, "Well, in that case, we'll organise a patrol." That's what

19 they did when they were concerned, but when we were concerned, it didn't

20 matter.

21 That's how things happened.

22 Q. Did you hear about people receiving similar threats over the

23 telephone or otherwise?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who were these people? What ethnicity were these people?

Page 11902

1 A. All the Croats and the Hungarians, all the Croats. There were

2 some good Serbs, too, some very good ones. I'd single out some of the

3 good ones, the best ones. A lot of time has passed, but there was the

4 head of the school, Trifunovic, and there was Dobroslav Markovic. He is

5 married to a Croat, but this didn't mean anything to him. He was an

6 exceptionally good man. And there were others.

7 I'll repeat what I have said. You just can't imagine how

8 beautiful the relationship was between members of all ethnic groups.

9 This isn't something one taught our children. We didn't teach our

10 children that someone was a Hungarian, while others were Serbs and so on.

11 I'm partly a Hungarian, my mother is a Hungarian. But as far as

12 the Serbs are concerned, my -- all the same, are also baptized a Serbian

13 child. We had lunch in each other's houses. We would celebrate

14 festivities. They would come and celebrate Easter and Christmas with us,

15 and so on and so forth.

16 Q. Were some people targeted more than others, and for which reason

17 if "yes"?

18 A. What do you mean?

19 Q. You say that they were looking for big houses, not for small

20 houses. Were the most healthy people, people in the village, targeted

21 with these threats more than other people?

22 A. Correct, that's certain.

23 Q. Did you speak with the Serb refugees? How did they describe the

24 reason for arriving in Hrtkovci?

25 A. I'll just give you an example. Someone came to the shop.

Page 11903

1 Sometimes my husband would replace me. As I'm a woman, I would have to

2 do my duties as a woman. He replaced me, and he asked the gentleman why

3 he had come there, what the reason was. And he said "Well, because they

4 have promised us that this will be Serbia, that it will all be ours."

5 And my son doesn't want to learn Cyrillic -- rather, I apologise, doesn't

6 want to learn the Latin script. My son wants to learn to write by using

7 the Cyrillic script, not the Latin script.

8 Q. You say that some of these events happened before the arrival of

9 Vojislav Seselj in Hrtkovci. Did you attend the rally on the 6th of May,

10 1992?

11 A. Yes, I did. I'm a curious being. I did.

12 Q. Why did you go there?

13 A. Well, look, I was curious. I wanted to see what this man wanted.

14 I don't know whether you can understand this. Everything was wonderful

15 and peaceful, and now someone wants to destroy this. Why? Well, let's

16 see why, let's hear what the reason is for this.

17 In the morning, I opened up my shop. Since I was to work the

18 first shift, I opened the shop. Well, it's difficult for me to be

19 precise. I'm a woman, so I can't be very precise, you know. But about

20 300 metres from my house, there's a road, and they had constructed a kind

21 of stage by using tractor-trailers. I don't know whether you can imagine

22 this, but that was the stage. They started singing Serbian songs, which

23 I hadn't heard before. So these songs were being sung. I was somewhat

24 surprised. Why were they suddenly singing these songs? We couldn't

25 understand this. Very briefly, we didn't understand that such things

Page 11904

1 would happen. They started singing Serbian songs.

2 Initially, I didn't want to go there. What does he want, what's

3 he playing at now, what's he up to, et cetera; so that's how I reacted.

4 And then in the end, out of curiosity, I said, "To hell with it, I'm

5 going to go and see what he has to say."

6 Q. Was anyone escorting or accompanying Mr. Seselj?

7 A. Well, when I came close to the stage, I heard huge applause, and

8 I told myself, ah, there he is, he's arrived. He was already on the

9 stage. Around him, to his left, to his right, there were people. He was

10 not alone on the stage. And as I was coming closer and closer to him, I

11 was horrified, because I was seeing in the flesh what I had never seen

12 before. And I must say it was horrible.

13 Q. What did you see?

14 A. I saw his army. Those were people, his troops, all in black,

15 black like this frame of this monitor, dressed in black from head to toe.

16 They had ammunition belts across their chests, hanging from one shoulder

17 and another. They had rifles. Of course, I can't tell you the type of

18 rifle, because I don't know anything about that. They had Serbian-style

19 traditional peasant hats, and they had something I saw for the first time

20 in my life; and it was horrific to me, those cockades on their caps. And

21 from those hats and cockades, I knew it was the Serbian Army. I knew it

22 was not the regular army, because I recognised the regular army. And to

23 me, those people were frightening, horrible.

24 Q. You say that Seselj was not alone on the stage. Did you

25 recognise anybody who was on the stage with Mr. Seselj?

Page 11905

1 A. Yes, I knew that person who said his son shall not learn the

2 Latinic script. His name was Zelic. I knew him, and this Zelic was

3 standing to the left of Seselj.

4 Q. He's the same man that came to your shop; am I right?

5 A. Yes, yes, because he was close to the house. His parents had

6 taken over one house that was close to mine, and he came there often.

7 Q. So when you arrived, Mr. Seselj had already begun his speech,

8 because you say that you heard an applause?

9 A. There was a speech, and then he began.

10 Q. Can you describe, to the best of your recollection, exactly what

11 Mr. Seselj said in his speech?

12 A. Well, the first thing he said, and it was strange to me that he

13 was addressing only to brother Serbs and sister Serbs - that was not the

14 usual way people addressed the locals. We use the old-fashioned way,

15 "Hello, comrades." And as long as he was saying "brother and sister

16 Serbs," there must have been an intention behind it.

17 As to what he said, he issued threats that we had to leave. Then

18 he was talking about politics again, that we had to leave, we had to free

19 up the jobs.

20 Q. When you say "we," what do you mean?

21 A. We, we who have jobs, we Croats. We Croats, at the end of the

22 day, Croats and some Hungarians.

23 Q. Please continue with a description of the speech.

24 A. That we had to go, that we had to vacate our jobs, that these

25 people who had newly arrived needed houses. The houses had to

Page 11906

1 accommodate these new people, and that we should not reckon on coming

2 back, that we had to go, that buses would be organised; and we would go

3 on these buses up to the border, we Croats and Hungarians, but mostly

4 Croats. And from the border, we would have to walk. And I'm quoting his

5 words. We would go on buses. We, the Croats and Hungarians, would go on

6 buses, and the new authority "will be us." And then he pounded his

7 chest.

8 I saw many surprised faces in the public, including some Serbs.

9 I stress "some." And among the decorative trees, children were hiding,

10 clapping, and shouting, "Ustashas will drive you out, Ustashas will drive

11 you out." Those were the words of the audience who attended that rally.

12 Q. Do you remember if, during this speech, was anybody named?

13 A. Yes, yes. The people named were those holding some sort of

14 prominent position; one doctor, then Mato Sama, who was a manager;

15 Mr. Grizelj, director of the cooperative; Franjo Maricic, who worked in

16 the local commune; and other people who had good jobs and high positions

17 were named. They were named as people who had to leave their jobs,

18 that's what Seselj said, because the people who had newly arrived from

19 Croatia had to have those jobs.

20 Q. Was any of your relatives named?

21 A. Franja Baricevic was one of those named, and he's my brother.

22 And the Barisic who worked in the local commune was also named.

23 Q. What was his position [French interpretation on English channel]?

24 A. Franjo was in charge of the hydrants and the water supply in the

25 village. He worked in the local commune. He was an employee of the

Page 11907

1 local commune.

2 Q. Did he give -- Mr. Seselj give a reason for why those people had

3 to leave Hrtkovci, or the Croats had to leave Hrtkovci?

4 A. He said those people had to leave so that he could place his own

5 people, so that they would have jobs. Of course, these people needed the

6 jobs of those who were already in those positions.

7 Q. These people who were mentioned, were they only Croats or

8 non-Serbs?

9 A. They were Croats, down to the last one, Croats and Hungarians.

10 Franjo was half Hungarian. Another person was Hungarian. Yes, mainly

11 Croats.

12 Q. Those people mentioned during the speech, did they later,

13 subsequently, experience any hostility or maltreatment?

14 A. Well, depends on what you mean by "hostility." If there had been

15 no pressure, of course these people wouldn't have left their homes.

16 Q. So you already described the audience response to Seselj's

17 speech. Can you tell us which word or phrases generated this kind of

18 response, an enthusiastic response by the crowd?

19 A. Well, the audience responded most enthusiastically when he said

20 the Croats would be boarded on buses, and he, Seselj, he said that

21 pounding his chest, would be the government. He didn't say that he,

22 himself, would be the new authority, but he said "we." And he knows best

23 whom he meant. That's when he got the greatest applause from the

24 audience. That's when the greatest commotion occurred, and the shouts,

25 "Ustashas, Ustashas." I don't know why, but that's how they called us.

Page 11908

1 What can we do about it now?

2 Q. Did you recognise anyone in the audience, and did you discuss the

3 speech with this person?

4 A. Yes, I did. That's why I didn't hear all of what he said. I

5 could have listened more carefully. But from his party, there was

6 Milena Rajakovic. Her parents lived close to my house. She stood next

7 to me to hear what I was going to say. My employee was also standing

8 next to me because my husband had let her attend the rally instead of

9 working, and there were also some of my other neighbours who were Croats,

10 whereas she was Serb. So I talked to her. I talked perhaps too much,

11 and she remembered.

12 Q. What did she say?

13 A. Well, she was in favour of her own party, and I was against it.

14 I was saying:

15 "Why would Seselj be allowed to come here now? Why would he

16 drive me out? I didn't do anything wrong. He had no reason to drive me

17 out." And then I said at the end -- perhaps it's a bit ridiculous, but I

18 said, "It's my house, I've just built it. For someone to just take it

19 away from me, I wouldn't allow. I'll take a bottle of gas and blow up

20 somebody else's house."

21 What I said might be ridiculous, but I was so distraught and

22 disappointed, I hope you can understand that.

23 Q. How do you know that this Milena Rajakovic was a member of the

24 Seselj party?

25 A. Because she -- because I knew her well, and she was constantly in

Page 11909

1 contact with Ostoja Sibincic, and Ostoja Sibincic was the main man in

2 Hrtkovci, who organised it all and who made a list of all the names of

3 owners of the best houses. He knew that, because he had been brought to

4 our village from Slavonia. They got the house of -- that formerly

5 belonged to some Germans, so it was practically through colonization that

6 his family got the house they lived in.

7 Q. You say there was a list of all the names of the owners of the

8 best houses. Did you see this list?

9 A. I didn't see it, myself, but you don't have to see a list for

10 yourself if people are being chased out one by one, this house, that

11 house, and then the next one. People who had nothing, no house, no land,

12 were not persecuted; but if it went the way it did, it meant the

13 persecution targeted those who were wealthy and had large houses. If

14 somebody is going after you, you'll easily understand that it's you

15 because you have a large house, whereas I won't be affected because I

16 have nothing.

17 Q. How long did the speech last?

18 A. You mean Seselj's speech or all the speeches? There had been

19 speeches before Seselj that I did not attend.

20 Q. Seselj's.

21 A. Seselj's speech went on easily for an hour, at least.

22 Q. At the end of the day, what message did you get from this speech?

23 A. What do you mean, "message"? The message was, "You can't survive

24 here. Get out here -- get out of here, save your skin and that of your

25 family, any way you know how." The message was that we Croats and

Page 11910

1 Hungarians had to get out of that village.

2 Q. Was there a change in Hrtkovci, after this speech, in the

3 relationship among the different groups?

4 A. After that, people were very intimidated, frightened, didn't feel

5 like working anymore. We didn't have our hearts in it. Our houses were

6 taken over, and a kind of unrest overwhelmed the village. The

7 hardworking people didn't -- couldn't work anymore. Everyone only

8 thought of surviving from one day to the next, and waiting for what would

9 come next.

10 Q. Can you tell us what happened to you?

11 A. I can, of course I can.

12 After this speech he made and that rally, a lady came to visit us

13 with her son aged 16. She spent ten days in our house. Until then, the

14 police had no need to call on us. I had to give her my new bedroom with

15 the new furniture that my father had bought us as a house-warming

16 present. She slept in my room, together with her son. She cooked on my

17 stove, helped herself to the meat from my fridge. When I had come back

18 from the church, I found her eating lunch with her son. She was beside

19 herself with happiness. She couldn't believe her good luck in getting

20 our house. She didn't think twice about saying to her son, "God, can it

21 really be true that we got a house like this?" She already thought of it

22 as her house, and she thought that we had to leave. She had a house in

23 Zagreb, and she thought that I had to go there, and whatever I had in my

24 house was hers now.

25 My house was new, built in 1980 or 1981. I had my own shop, well

Page 11911

1 stocked with the goods that I had bought, unencumbered by a single dinar

2 of loan. It was all mine.

3 We had a piece of land that we bought for our eldest son, so that

4 we could build a house for him, because our shop was a great success.

5 She said that she had a house in Zagreb and a piece of land, and that we

6 should go there; and whatever we had, and everything in our house was

7 brand new, was going to become her property now. And in exchange, she

8 lifted all the things that she had in Zagreb.

9 Q. Was she Serb, Serbian?

10 A. She was a Serb from Zagreb. She and her son came looking for a

11 house, whereas her elder son was in the Serbian Army. She had two sons.

12 The elder one was in the Serbian Army, the younger one was with her. And

13 she had left her husband behind in Zagreb, in that house, so that --

14 Q. Excuse me. Did you try to call the police when this woman moved

15 into your house?

16 A. Yes, yes, but they did not react in any way. On the contrary,

17 they helped her. They were helping her, because since communications had

18 broken down at the time, they were cut off, and they enabled her to talk

19 to her husband in Zagreb. I remember well that at one point my aunt

20 came, saw a police car outside the house. My aunt came in all

21 frightened, and she said, "What happened in your house? Why is the

22 police here?" I just shrugged my shoulders. I told her, "Well, you can

23 see for yourself. One doesn't dare say anything." And since we had no

24 choice, we packed our things. And how did we pack? We packed like

25 gypsies.

Page 11912

1 Q. When?

2 A. When she said that she had all that we needed in Zagreb, that we

3 should exchange houses. That's when we packed.

4 I'm telling you, she had been in our house for ten days up to

5 that moment, and we realised we had no choice, because when a Serb comes

6 into your house, you can say goodbye to it. You are left without

7 anything in the world.

8 There was only one man who managed to expel the new occupants,

9 there was one single case, so we thought we'd better leave. And as I

10 said, we packed. They gave us a few bags. We had an Opel Ascona, and we

11 loaded it with all the things that would fit into the car and onto the

12 roof. All the clothing and necessities we managed to put in the boot of

13 the car, including some of my valuable zepter crockery and pots.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you have eight

15 minutes left.

16 MR. FERRARA:

17 Q. What happened when you were in Zagreb?

18 A. When we arrived in Zagreb, this Mico, the lady's husband who had

19 been left behind, had transferred the title to the house to his brother,

20 so legally we had no house. That lady had taken over our house, and we

21 were in the street.

22 Then Mr. Spiric came. I was in tears now. Spiric asked me what

23 had happened. I explained. And then that husband left. We were in the

24 street. Our house was gone. One child was with us, one child was in a

25 boarding school. And then Spiric suggested that he could go to Hrtkovci

Page 11913

1 and find another alternative house for us. My husband gave him a lift.

2 And when he saw our house, he asked Mile to swap houses with us, himself;

3 and we agreed to that swap, although we were getting less. He only had

4 the house, no land, nothing, but still we agreed.

5 Q. Did you sign any contract for this exchange?

6 A. Yes. This was all done legally. Our house has all the relevant

7 documents; water certificates, urban certificates, everything. He didn't

8 have anything.

9 MR. FERRARA: Mr. Registrar, can we have on the screen the

10 document with the 65 ter number 1398, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that has to do with the house

12 exchange.

13 MR. FERRARA:

14 Q. Is this the contract you signed by Mr. Bilic -- with Mr. Spiric,

15 sorry?

16 A. That's right.

17 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, I'd like to admit into evidence the

18 document.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's give it a

20 number. Let's give this official contract a number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be given

22 Exhibit number P631. Thank you, Your Honours.

23 MR. FERRARA:

24 Q. Can you briefly describe the condition of this house that you got

25 in Zagreb, and the condition of the house that you left in Hrtkovci?

Page 11914

1 A. In Hrtkovci, well, I have a photograph which you can have a look

2 at to see what the house looked like. If you're interested in it, I can

3 show it to you.

4 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, can we put it on the ELMO, this

5 photo?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd just like to draw your

7 attention to the fact that in similar cases, when the Defence wants to

8 show something, the Prosecution is on its feet, but I have no objections.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's take a look

10 at this picture.

11 MR. FERRARA:

12 Q. What's this?

13 A. The photograph shows my house, which I built in 1980 and 1981.

14 There is a real cellar, and it's a real house with foundations.

15 MR. FERRARA: Your Honours, I'd like to add this document to our

16 exhibit list, and --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This photograph cannot be admitted

20 into evidence until the Prosecution obtains a photograph of the house

21 that Ms. Paulic is living in Zitnjak, in Zagreb right now.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But that was the exact question

23 I was going to ask the witness. Do you have a picture of your house

24 today?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this: I have half a

Page 11915

1 photograph, because it was an old house and the roof had to be replaced

2 this year. I can switch my mobile phone on and show you part of the

3 house that has been renovated. You can see the part that I renovated,

4 you can see that it's new. This was done this year.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, you represent the

6 OTP. You knew very well that when you were asking to see this picture,

7 inevitably we would want to see the picture of the house where the

8 witness lives in now. But it seems that this photograph of her house,

9 where she lives now, is on her mobile phone, so you should have done what

10 was needed in order to have a hard copy of this picture, and you didn't

11 do this. You just told us that she only had the photograph on her mobile

12 phone?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I, myself, said.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The picture of the house you

15 live in in Zagreb, is it only on your mobile phone? That's what I

16 understood.

17 MR. FERRARA:

18 Q. Can we see this photo?

19 A. Yes, yes. But I didn't tell that to Prosecution. I have this

20 for my own sake.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow

22 Judges.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will not

25 admit this picture, neither picture, neither one of them. Take your

Page 11916

1 picture, please.

2 MR. FERRARA:

3 Q. Can you describe the condition of the house in Zagreb?

4 A. The house was smaller. It was all covered in wallpaper on the

5 inside. You know what wallpaper is. It doesn't have any foundations,

6 windows -- when that wallpaper came unstuck, when we removed the

7 wallpaper, tears started flowing. We were horrified. We renovated

8 everything, literally everything.

9 His son, Spiric's son, was there last year, his son who was in

10 the Serbian army. He came to attend a neighbour's wedding. He wanted to

11 take photographs of the inside. I said, "Feel free to do so." I said,

12 "You can take photographs, but there's nothing for you to photograph.

13 Everything has been renovated."

14 Naturally, if you take the ugliest girl and dress her up as a

15 bride, she'll be beautiful. Well, that's what that house looks like.

16 But now that the roof caved in, well, I can describe the house for you.

17 We buttressed the house up. Well, it's a bit like putting a lid on a

18 pot. That's how the top caved in. So, very briefly, that's how I would

19 describe it, yes.

20 Q. My last question: Did you exchange with Mr. Spiric only your

21 house in Hrtkovci or also a piece of land, a piece of land as well? What

22 did you give to Mr. Spiric?

23 A. The house, the land. We had to give him everything in exchange

24 for his house. And in addition, he asked for us to give him 800 German

25 marks. At the time, one used marks, not Euros. We had to give him that

Page 11917

1 money so that he could pay for a lorry to collect the things that he

2 wanted, all the -- he said he wouldn't do this. He took his things, he

3 packed them. We gave him 800 kuna, and he left without a word.

4 Q. Did you hear of other non-Serbs who exchanged their house with

5 Serbs that lived outside Hrtkovci?

6 A. You mean Hungarians, people who weren't Serbs?

7 Q. Correct.

8 A. Well, yes, I heard about that, yes.

9 Q. Any of your relatives?

10 A. Well, it's difficult for me to talk about that. My brother had a

11 house, a house that was newer than mine. It was built of facade bricks.

12 He had a small, orderly house. While Spiric was moving out, I went to

13 Franjo's out of curiosity to see how he was, because I'm his sister and I

14 feel for him.

15 In the front rooms, they had left some earth. Why, I don't know.

16 The house was in a terrible state, but at the time it was terrible. My

17 sister-in-law was crying. I tried to console her. I'm quite courageous,

18 as you can see. I'm courageous. I consoled her. I said, "Well, what's

19 important is that you're alive and that your children are healthy.

20 That's also the case with my children. You'll always have a house,

21 you'll have everything." She couldn't reconcile herself to that for a

22 certain period of time. Eventually she became reconciled to that. But

23 the house and the yard and everything else was in a very bad state.

24 MR. FERRARA: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 11918

1 Let me turn to my fellow Judges to see if they have any

2 questions.

3 Witness, I have just one question for you.

4 In your testimony, there's just one thing I find relevant, and

5 that is the speech given by Mr. Seselj. You said that he gave names.

6 Apparently, Mr. Seselj did not know the names of the people whose name

7 was mentioned.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't know them, but he had

9 been provided with a list of those people. But it's true, he couldn't

10 have known those people. He knew none of us, none of us. He didn't come

11 to Hrtkovci to get to know the locals. He was a stranger for us. He

12 wasn't a local inhabitant. He arrived in the village and created a

13 disturbance, but he was given that list.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that he was

15 given a list. How do you know this? How do you come to that conclusion?

16 Did someone tell you about this?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone said that -- what's his

18 name -- Ostoja Sibincic had compiled the list and recorded the houses, so

19 the numbers of the houses and the names of the streets.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Ostoja Sibincic is the one

21 who compiled the list and gave it to Mr. Seselj; and Mr. Seselj, when he

22 delivered his speech, read out the list and the names. And you mentioned

23 the name of your brother?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was Mr. Sibincic on bad terms

Page 11919

1 with your brother?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he acted as if he wasn't in a

3 conflict with anyone.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Earlier on, we saw the picture

5 of your house. It's a nice house.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For me, a beautiful house.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, Mr. Sibincic could

8 have put your name on the list. Why is it that he didn't do so?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know why he

10 didn't do that. Perhaps he was afraid of my husband. My husband is

11 quite a strict man, and they'd been down there together because he worked

12 for the local commune. As for his reasons, well, I don't know. I,

13 myself, am surprised by this.

14 I apologise. It's probably because he no longer worked in the

15 local commune, but worked for me. So he wasn't making a post vacant.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In any case, you are saying

17 that you are certain that it's Mr. Seselj who gave these names; you're

18 100 per cent sure about this?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those names were quite clearly

20 pronounced. I know that because I know all those people, and I was

21 horrified by what I heard.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And those names were pronounced

23 by Mr. Seselj or by someone else?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He uttered the names.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right. So you are quite

Page 11920

1 sure about this.

2 Mr. Seselj, please proceed with your cross-examination. You have

3 one hour.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

5 Q. Ms. Paulic, before your testimony today, had you prepared your

6 testimony with the Prosecution?

7 A. A little bit.

8 Q. In the course of that proofing, did you go through the statement

9 that you signed a long time ago?

10 A. Well, I'm familiar with it. I'll never forget it.

11 Q. I'm not asking you whether you are familiar with it, but whether

12 you and a representative of the OTP went through the text.

13 A. Well, yes, I did.

14 Q. In that case, why didn't you tell the Prosecution many of the

15 things that you have first stated today?

16 A. Well, I could go into that, but you'd need a 500- or 600-page

17 book.

18 Q. Well, why didn't you write that book, then?

19 A. Well, I'm not that sort.

20 Q. You're not the sort that the Prosecution wants to obtain

21 information from in advance. You want to surprise the Prosecution in the

22 courtroom as well?

23 A. Well, I was asked a few questions and I answered them.

24 Q. And now you've felt free to talk about things you weren't asked

25 about?

Page 11921

1 A. Well, yes.

2 Q. Very well. Let's go and deal with these things in order.

3 Before coming to The Hague, did you speak to the Croatian

4 authorities?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you look at me when I ask you questions?

7 A. Why not?

8 Q. Be courteous, then. I'm looking at you. I'd like you to look at

9 me.

10 A. I can look at you, but I don't see why.

11 Q. If I'm putting a question to you and if you're answering my

12 question, well, then it would be decent for us to look at each other.

13 A. The Judges are here to be looked at.

14 Q. Yes, that's correct. But when the accused puts questions to you,

15 then you are engaging in a dialogue with the accused.

16 A. I can hear the accused.

17 Q. You can hear me sufficiently well, so you don't need to look at

18 me. Don't you feel uneasy? Is your conscience ill at ease, and as a

19 result you can't look me in the eyes?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Well, then you don't want to look me in the eyes out of spite,

22 not because you can't?

23 A. Why should I want to look at you. You are such an evil man.

24 Q. But you've never seen a more handsome man, never in your life.

25 A. Well, whatever you say. That's a well-known fact.

Page 11922

1 Q. Very well. You don't want to look me in the eyes. What can I do

2 about it? I'm looking in your eyes.

3 Why did you invent the story about Slavko Mirazic, saying that he

4 was a member of the Serbian Radical Party, where that was never the case?

5 He is not a member of that party today, either.

6 A. No, I didn't invent that. That's what he said.

7 Q. He was a member of the Serbian Renewal Movement, and everyone in

8 Hrtkovci knew that and that's probably the case today because no one is

9 aware of him having left that body.

10 A. That's his problem.

11 Q. Very well. If that's his problem, if it's his problem that you

12 accuse him of being a member of the Serbian Radical Party. You said that

13 the refugees in Hrtkovci started arriving from various parts of Croatia

14 as early as 1991; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Most of them came after the fall of many places in Western

17 Slavonia in December 1991; is that correct?

18 A. They were continually arriving.

19 Q. But most of them came from Grubisno Polje, Slatina, and some

20 other places. Can you remember the names of those places?

21 A. Grubisno Polje, I remember that place; and I also remember Kule.

22 Q. You mentioned the case or a case that isn't referred to in your

23 statement. You said that there was an old lady living alone in your

24 neighbourhood, in a good house, in a nice house. Her son was abroad.

25 The lady died. The son sold the house, and then some refugees illegally

Page 11923

1 moved into the house. The new owner arrived, and he couldn't get them to

2 leave. Is that correct?

3 A. The new owner bought the house, and then they arrived.

4 Q. I interpreted what you said. Refugees moved in. When he heard

5 about that, he came from abroad, he tried to expel them; and he was

6 unsuccessful. I'm interested in the name of the old lady who died. You

7 didn't mention it.

8 A. The old lady, Kata Francuz.

9 Q. What was her surname?

10 A. Francuz, Kata Francuz.

11 Q. What was her son's name?

12 A. Well, how do I know?

13 Q. How don't you know the name of neighbour's son? You would see

14 the old lady, Kata, every day; and she would continually speak to you

15 about her son, if what you're saying is the truth, because you needed

16 some time to remember the name of the old lady. I haven't heard about

17 that surname, Francuz, in Hrtkovci, but I'll check on this when you

18 leave.

19 What was the name of the new owner when he bought the house from

20 the old lady Kata's son?

21 A. I wasn't interested in his name.

22 Q. Do you know him?

23 A. Partially, to an extent.

24 Q. Why didn't you mention this fact to the Prosecution when you

25 spoke to the Prosecution the first time? It's a very interesting case.

Page 11924

1 The old lady, Kata, died. The son sold the house. Refugees moved in.

2 Why didn't you tell the Prosecution about this? Didn't they ask you

3 about it?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Well, what then?

6 A. No, they didn't ask me about this. I said there were so many

7 cases -- there was so many cases, I could write a book about it. You

8 can't remember everything, but I just remembered that.

9 Q. And you also needed a little time to remember the name of old

10 lady Kata?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well. You said that the refugees arrived and that they

13 moved around town in groups of four, five, or six individuals; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did these refugees attack?

17 A. They attacked good houses. They wouldn't attack poor people.

18 Q. How did they attack? Did they form groups, then have artillery

19 fire, then mortars? Did they then fire shots? What did the attack look

20 like, or did they just appear, knock on doors, say, "We're from

21 such-and-such a place, we have a good house. Would you like us to do an

22 exchange"? What did this attack resemble?

23 A. There was no knocking. They would enter the yards.

24 Q. Well, when you enter a yard, do you have to knock?

25 A. It depends.

Page 11925

1 Q. Well, what do you knock on when you enter a yard?

2 A. Sir, you knock on the door, but let me repeat this. It depended.

3 They entered the yards. They made threats, used bad language, disturbed

4 us and so on.

5 Q. Perhaps that happened on occasion. I believe that is the case.

6 But you don't have any specific information, you're inventing things, and

7 you're talking in general terms.

8 A. Well, dear Seselj, I know about this.

9 Q. But you're afraid to look me in the eyes, and I can see that

10 you're not telling the truth. That's quite sufficient for me.

11 A. Well, look --

12 Q. Shall we use the "T" form of addressing each other, the impolite

13 form of addressing each other?

14 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please. We have a

16 technical problem here.

17 JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please, do not ask

18 that question again to the witness about why the witness is not looking

19 at you. When the witness was answering the questions of Mr. Ferrara, she

20 was looking at the Judges. Everybody's free to look at the Judges.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ms. Lattanzi, according to

22 procedural law, in direct testimony is one of the main principles, that

23 the testimony has to appear in person and address the court, and this is

24 one of the basic factors for checking the witness' credibility. And then

25 there is the witness' body language. A truthful witness looks the person

Page 11926

1 putting questions to the witness in the eyes. As a student at the

2 faculty of law, this is something that I was taught. It's part of

3 criminal law.

4 I won't go on about this, but on two occasions I informed you of

5 how I interpret this, and you can draw the conclusions you like.

6 Q. Very well. How did they threaten you? Apart from the phone

7 calls, which we can't check up on - who knows whether there were any such

8 phone calls or not - but did anyone curse you, for example, in the

9 street?

10 A. Well, if they were my friends, well, was it only a matter of

11 cursing --

12 Q. Just a minute, please. There wasn't any swearing.

13 A. Well, there were all sorts of things, Mr. Seselj.

14 Q. I want to clarify this. Were there any swear words used, and

15 which ones?

16 A. Well, we're not going to start cursing, using swear words in the

17 courtroom.

18 Q. No, we won't, but we'll tell the Chamber what sort of swear words

19 were used.

20 A. Is it that important? It's so ugly, should I have to tell you

21 that they cursed my mother, that they cursed my child or, rather, they

22 said that my child was a member of the ZNG, the Home Guards Corps. All

23 sorts of words were used. It's not important.

24 Q. I'm drawing a conclusion from the fact that you don't want to say

25 which swear words were used. Well, finally you said that they cursed

Page 11927

1 your mother, so the conclusion I draw is that no one used any swear

2 words; and when you imagine such things, when you invent such things,

3 you're not finding your bearing in this cross-examination.

4 A. Sir, I don't use swear words. I don't want to do so. I'm a

5 Catholic.

6 Q. I'm not interested in the fact that you're a Catholic, and I

7 didn't say that you used swear words. What I want to say is that in

8 Hrtkovci, you're well known as a person who can be quite brazen and

9 people don't really want to have a verbal conflict with you; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Well, that's not true.

12 Q. Very well. Let's move on. You said a certain Jovo brought in

13 some people who wanted to enter your house; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You don't know what this Jovo's surname is?

16 A. [No verbal response]

17 Q. Is he a refugee or a local inhabitant?

18 A. Jovo is a refugee. He has a house, together with his brother, in

19 Zagreb, in a neighbourhood called Zitnjak.

20 Q. Did this Jovo incite you to go there to Zitnjak and to do some

21 sightseeing and find someone to possibly swap houses with?

22 You are hesitating for a long time. What's the reason?

23 A. And you are nervous, aren't you? Jovo finally admitted to me

24 this: "I am bringing to you other people all the time, but I have a

25 house myself in Zagreb, in Zitnjak, that you could take in exchange for

Page 11928

1 your house."

2 Q. Did Jovo introduce you to Dragutin Spiric, with whom you swapped

3 houses?

4 A. No, he did not.

5 Q. That's what I wanted to know. Now, let's come to the rally.

6 Why were you astounded by the broadcasting of Serb songs before

7 the rally? You don't like Serbian songs?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And you were taken aback?

10 A. I was taken aback because I had never heard any of them before

11 that moment, and it sounded horrible to me. Why would Seselj's arrival

12 necessarily mean that these songs would be booming around town?

13 Q. What else would you play before a rally?

14 A. Well, I listened to other songs. They were very nice songs.

15 Q. You mean songs about Ban Jelacic, young Ustashas charging into

16 battle. But, anyway, every bird flies to his own nest. Some are even

17 willing to sacrifice themselves for their own flock.

18 A. Let it be.

19 Q. You saw, at my rally, you say, men dressed in black from head to

20 toe, with ammunition belts on their chests and terrible cockades on their

21 hats. What's so terrible about those cockades?

22 A. What was terrible? Well, it was terrifying to me, because I had

23 never seen them before. How wouldn't it be? What were suddenly Serbian

24 soldiers doing in our beautiful, peaceful village?

25 Q. You say in your statement there was very few police at the rally;

Page 11929

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And we have information from a man who worked in the State

4 Security Service, Slavko Kolundzic, who attended the rally as part of his

5 job; and he said there was a lot of police security and you didn't see

6 it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. It seemed to you that those policemen were Seselj's soldiers,

9 with ammunition belts and Serbian-style hats?

10 A. I don't know what you mean.

11 Q. You say that these cockades were as big as plates?

12 A. That there are all sorts of sizes.

13 Q. It says here that "they were as big as plates."

14 A. That's how things looked like when you are frightened.

15 Q. And these hats, were they as big as army caldrons? If the

16 cockades were as big as plates, then the hats had to be as big as army

17 caldrons; right?

18 A. I don't know the size of an army caldron. I've never been in the

19 army. But they were black and pointed, ugly. Again, I'm saying I've

20 never seen them before.

21 Q. So even the hats were ugly to you?

22 A. Yes. They were pointed and ugly.

23 Q. Well, these Serbian-style hats were produced as Serbian military

24 uniform in the 19th century, emulating French hats, and the Serbian

25 military uniform in the First World War was among the most beautiful army

Page 11930

1 uniforms. Do you know that?

2 A. We didn't want to know about that. We liked our traditional

3 national costumes of the Sokac people.

4 Q. You mean Sokac, Serbs who converted to Catholicism?

5 A. Well, they used to be Orthodox and then they converted.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. Well, I learned about it.

8 Q. You mean from your own books? Why do you keep saying that

9 Hungarians were mentioned at the rally, when nobody ever mentioned

10 Hungarians?

11 A. Sir, I am not making anything up. I did not come here to make

12 things up. I came here to tell the truth and only the truth. And you,

13 if you were proud enough to pound your chest there, be brave here.

14 Q. I am, I am brave. There's nobody braver in the whole Hague

15 Tribunal.

16 A. I can see that.

17 Q. Fine. During that speech, did I say that all children from mixed

18 marriages should be killed?

19 A. I've been warned by interpreters to make a pause.

20 Q. What are you looking at? Is somebody sending you any messages?

21 A. Come and see, come and have a look.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you can look at the

23 screen, but at the screen what you see is the English translation of your

24 answers or of Mr. Seselj's questions, or the Judges' questions. If you

25 like to learn English, you can do so, but maybe at another time.

Page 11931

1 Now, could you please answer Mr. Seselj's questions?

2 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Will you answer my question? Please try. Did I say at that

4 meeting that all children from mixed marriages should be killed off?

5 A. I heard with my own ears that you said mixed marriages should be

6 broken.

7 Q. And children killed?

8 A. I didn't hear anything about children, because as you said, I am

9 very talkative myself and Milena was standing next to me, a child of a

10 mixed marriage; and it didn't hurt me so much because of Milena but

11 because of my own sister who is in a mixed marriage and has two children,

12 so I started talking to her immediately. I didn't hear about children,

13 but you did say that mixed marriages between Croats and Serbs should be

14 broken up.

15 Q. And who was at that rally from your own family?

16 A. Well, I don't have to tell you that.

17 Q. You do have to tell me.

18 A. My niece. There were others, but she is the most important.

19 Q. Was your brother there?

20 A. My brother lives on one end, I live on another. I repeat to you

21 that I was on the street where my house is.

22 Q. And how many people attended that rally?

23 A. About a thousand, give or take.

24 Q. So was your brother at the rally or not? Did you see him?

25 A. Can you really see every face in such a big crowd? I believe he

Page 11932

1 was there.

2 Q. Was he or wasn't he?

3 A. I believe he was.

4 Q. Did you talk to your brother at any time after the rally about

5 the things you heard?

6 A. The whole village talked, not just my brother and I. Everybody

7 talked about it.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's 12.00, and I believe we

9 should break for 20 minutes.

10 We'll resume at 12.20. We'll finish at 1.15.

11 I think you have used up 25 minutes already, you'll have 35

12 minutes left, so normally we shall be able to finish on time.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

16 Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

17 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Ms. Paulic, you said at one point that in my speech at that

19 rally, I read a list of names. How come that I, as the president of a

20 political party coming to a rally, read a list of names of inhabitants of

21 Hrtkovci who should be expelled? Doesn't that sound tragic comic to you,

22 ridiculous? It's my electoral campaign. I'm making a political speech,

23 making promises as to what the Serbian Radical Party would do when they

24 come into power; and I also advocate the principle of retorsion, that is,

25 an exchange of population of Croatia, saying that if Croatia expelled so

Page 11933

1 many Serbs, we would do the same to Croats, briefly we would do to Croats

2 whatever the Tudjman regime did to Serbs. And then I take out a list of

3 inhabitants of Hrtkovci and read it out? Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

4 Shall I have to wait much longer? The interpretation has

5 finished long ago.

6 A. It was funny to us at the time, but obviously, looking at you, it

7 wasn't funny. You did it all in a politically-organised way.

8 Q. First, we expelled hundreds of thousands of Serbs from Croatia,

9 and then we expelled a couple of thousand Croats from Serbia. It was all

10 conceived and designed by us.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, would it be possible

12 to turn off the screen in front of Ms. Paulic, where she's following the

13 transcript, so that she can think about answers, because the transcript

14 lags behind the interpretation.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, don't waste your

16 time looking at the screen. I don't know what you're looking at. Maybe

17 you see myself on the screen, and then there's another screen with text

18 in English that is scrolling. But it's useless for you, unless you need

19 time to think about your answer.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not impossible that somebody

21 is sending her answers to my questions. This waiting is very suspicious.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody needs to send me answers.

23 I can easily answer to them.

24 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So when I get your goat a little, then you're very ready to

Page 11934

1 answer. So let me go on.

2 How do you know -- where did you get this idea that

3 Ostoja Sibincic gave me that list to read?

4 A. Well, who else would it be? He was the main organiser in

5 Hrtkovci.

6 Q. And to what party did Ostoja Sibincic belong to at the time?

7 A. You know that well. Why would you ask me if you know it?

8 Q. I know very well. I'm asking you, as a witness.

9 A. Just like you.

10 Q. You mean he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. Are you sure.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Well, if you're sure, why would we go on. You said that you were

15 in Hrtkovci when the wife of Dragutin Spiric came and came into your

16 house with her child?

17 A. Not Spiric's wife, another woman with whom we were supposed to

18 swap houses.

19 Q. And you didn't, eventually?

20 A. Not with that woman.

21 Q. Because her house was not good enough for you?

22 A. No. The thing is that her husband, while she was staying in my

23 house, signed over the title to the house to his brother.

24 Q. So you went to Zitnjak in Zagreb?

25 A. The surname is Milutinovic.

Page 11935

1 Q. Wait a little. So you personally went to Zitnjak, near Zagreb?

2 A. She invited us with the intention to swap house for house, Mico

3 Milutinovic's house.

4 Q. And since your agreement with the Milutinovic's fell through?

5 A. That's not how it happened. We went to the registrar, to the

6 public notary, and the public notary found that there were no papers, no

7 title.

8 Q. And then you went around and made inquiries around Zitnjak?

9 A. No. I was sitting down and crying when Dragutin Spiric came in

10 and asked me why I was crying. And I answered, to which he said, "Dear

11 lady, come and have a look at my house." So I did go because it was

12 nearby.

13 My husband went back to Hrtkovci because we realised we had lost

14 our house, there was no title to the other house. We had a shop and a

15 house, and Spiric told my husband to find another house in Hrtkovci.

16 Q. You've told us all that. Zitnjak is a neighbourhood in Zagreb?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Four kilometres from the center?

19 A. That's not true. It's seven or eight kilometres.

20 Q. I have a statement here --

21 A. Well, that's your problem.

22 Q. You are quite quarrelsome now. That's better. The wife of

23 Dragutin Spiric says it's four kilometres from the center of Zagreb.

24 A. Let it be.

25 Q. It was populated by 70 per cent Serbs before the war?

Page 11936

1 A. How would I know?

2 Q. Were there many Serbs? You live there now.

3 A. I know about now, but I don't know about before.

4 Q. That's right. You did not count them as they were leaving, did

5 you?

6 The wife of Dragutin Spiric says that you came and went around

7 the neighbourhood, looking for a house that would be suitable, and you

8 viewed a lot of Serbian houses. And that was not unusual in any way,

9 because many Croats had come before and after you to look at Serb houses

10 and inquire about possible swapping.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

12 MR. FERRARA: Yes, I did not understand. Mr. Seselj is reading a

13 statement of the wife of Dragutin Spiric? It was never disclosed to

14 the --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's what I understood, too.

16 But you know that --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the Prosecutor has no idea

18 what has or hasn't been disclosed to him. This -- in fact, to me. This

19 is in my book, "The Hrtkovci Scandal," and if I give you some headlines,

20 you are again going to redact it from the transcript and turn it into a

21 private session. So there's "The Hrtkovci Affair," in the headline and a

22 few more words. I disclosed it to the Prosecution in good time, at least

23 a month before the first Hrtkovci witness appeared, and the Prosecutor

24 should do his homework.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara, this statement

Page 11937

1 made by this woman is in the book that you received.

2 MR. FERRARA: Maybe Mr. Seselj should point out before reading

3 and say, "I'm reading a statement in the book," and so on. Of course, we

4 have thousands of documents. We cannot know everything in the documents.

5 He should be more precise.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this book, (redacted)

8 (redacted) and so on, consists of studies on the Hrtkovci case,

9 written by my associates, that I had turned over to you in October of

10 last year with my objection to the indictment. You decided at the time

11 that it shouldn't be translated into English. You only translated the

12 objection and ruled on the objection.

13 If you had translated it all into English, I believe that the

14 evidence on Hrtkovci would have been so convincing that you would have,

15 without any hesitation, decided to remove all references to Hrtkovci in

16 the indictment.

17 So this is the study in my book, first, and then goes all the

18 rest; the judgements, the --

19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please continue the interpretation.

20 THE INTERPRETER: It's mostly finished.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.

22 If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Seselj, the Chamber ruled that you could

23 have a great number of pages translated into English. So far, we haven't

24 seen one single page. Because you have not ordered it or why?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I told you last

Page 11938

1 time that this is probably a very interesting book, as far as what

2 happened in this municipality is concerned, so you should have thought

3 about the fact that the Judges needed to know about this book.

4 When this book was mentioned ages ago, we had no idea what was in

5 the book, and now I'm discovering that in this book we could find the

6 statement made by this woman, this woman who was part of the exchange of

7 houses. It's quite interesting. So out of the 10.000 pages in the book,

8 you should have told the translation department, "Translate this page and

9 that page so that the Judges know about these elements." But this is

10 something you did not do.

11 I note that this book might be of interest, but unfortunately we

12 don't have it, it's not available to us.

13 Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Two points, very quickly.

15 As we've indicated in the past, the book primarily consists of

16 material that is -- that relates to protected witnesses or material that

17 the Trial Chamber has ordered to be placed under seal.

18 Second of all, the book is more than a thousand pages' long, and

19 we would ask the Trial Chamber to order the accused that when he is going

20 to be using parts of that book, or any of his other books, in terms of

21 cross-examination, that he needs to notify us so that we can have those

22 parts of the book ready and available to us.

23 Simply saying he's disclosed a 1.000-page book to us, and,

24 therefore, anything and everything in it is fair game for each and every

25 witnesses in cross-examination, is not fair; and we need notification,

Page 11939

1 just as the Trial Chamber does, so that Your Honours can have those pages

2 before you when he cross-examines a witness.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis. You know that

4 the events linked to this municipality are very important, of paramount

5 importance to this document, notably because of the speech that was made

6 there and everything that occurred around the speech. And because of

7 this, the OTP must know of all of the book, the entire book. If I were

8 you, I would know the book from page 1 to the last page. If the accused

9 is talking about this book, then the OTP would have the answer, if the

10 OTP knew the book.

11 I know that you came in, in midstream, you know, and you were not

12 able to know of all the exhibits, but when you're a prosecutor, and it's

13 a job I had at one point, it's to know everything, to know all the

14 evidence, to be aware of the existence of the entire body of evidence so

15 that you're never taken by surprise by the Defence.

16 If he is mentioning part of a book, normally you should be able

17 to answer quickly without having to be told about the page where the

18 passage can be found. If I had read this book, I could tell you by

19 route, you know, the page and the paragraph. Unfortunately, we're not

20 given this book.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with all due respect, the fact that

22 the witness -- or the fact that the accused wants to cross-examine from

23 certain pages of the book is certainly something that he can notify us

24 about in advance.

25 The fact is, as we've said before, this book contains largely

Page 11940

1 information that shouldn't have been published and put into the public

2 domain in the first place. The remainder of that book, if the accused

3 knows he's going to cross-examine on certain parts of the book, he has an

4 obligation, just as any other accused or any other Defence team do, to

5 provide adequate notice to us so that we can be thoroughly prepared.

6 This is what is known as trial by ambush, and it is no more fair to the

7 Prosecution to allow this to proceed than it would be if we were to try

8 the same thing against the accused. It's a fundamental issue of equality

9 of arms.

10 And I note for the record, once again, Dr. Seselj is laughing.

11 This is inappropriate behaviour in the courtroom, and we would ask again,

12 these are exactly the kinds of things that demand imposition of counsel

13 immediately. We are not getting a fair trial, we're not being put on

14 fair notice as to what he's cross-examining on, and when I raise issues,

15 he mocks us.

16 This is not the way to proceed, with all due respect.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I was not looking

18 at you. You are not supposed to smirk or smile when the Prosecutor is

19 talking. And Mr. Mundis is right in one part. If, in this book, there

20 are passages on protected witnesses, you must be very careful and never

21 mention this in open session. However, this was not the case, because

22 our witness here is not protected, and the wife -- everything that deals

23 with the wife of the person who swapped -- they swapped apartments with

24 is not protected either.

25 But we now have some minutes left, and you have the floor.

Page 11941

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,

2 laughter is something that one can often not control. It's a spontaneous

3 reaction of an individual to certain events. It can be controlled

4 sometimes, but not always, and it cannot be forbidden. First of all, I

5 did not laugh out loud, and thus it was not insulting, it was not

6 offensive.

7 I have disclosed this book to the Prosecution, and I meant to

8 submit one copy for translation. But when I saw that you forbade the

9 title to be mentioned in the courtroom, I gave up on that idea.

10 Third, I wasn't quoting from the book. I am interpreting part of

11 the statement of Dragutin Spiric's wife. I didn't even have time to

12 write down her name, so I keep referring to her as Dragutin Spiric's

13 wife. And it is only after the intervention of the Prosecutor that I

14 said that it was published -- that statement was published in the book.

15 I have the right to use it in my cross-examination.

16 Fourth, Mr. President, I am, in principle, opposing that any

17 statement taken by the Defence or the Prosecution be admitted into

18 evidence without prior cross-examination, just as I oppose the proffering

19 by the Prosecutor of 92 ter statements that the Prosecutor, himself, has

20 written, and that's why I did not offer into evidence -- I did not tender

21 the statements -- witness statements taken by my own associates. When I

22 call Defence statements, I will bring many of those who have already

23 given written statements. But that's something we can leave for later.

24 I have the right to interpret various statements, and if the

25 Prosecutor asks me, I'll tell him it comes from a book. They can find

Page 11942

1 it.

2 It says, in Dragutin Spiric's wife's statement, that Ms. Paulic

3 came to Zitnjak, looked around for a suitable house for purposes of an

4 exchange, and now I'm putting it to her that Dragutin Spiric's wife

5 claims that the Spiric family had swapped their house in a blind exchange

6 for the Paulics' house.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true.

8 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

9 Q. However, the contract on the exchange was drafted by

10 Igor Kanajet, attorney-at-law; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. From another village, and it was verified in Zagreb. That

13 attorney is from Dugo Selo. That's just outside Zagreb; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So, you see, I know a few things myself, and Dugo Selo is not in

16 Ruma municipality where the Hrtkovci is.

17 And now I'm asking the witness: You and your husband intended to

18 cheat Dragutin Spiric and his wife, and in concluding that contract, they

19 did not provide all the necessary documentation. So when Dragutin Spiric

20 came to Hrtkovci, he could not book the house in Hrtkovci in his own

21 name; whereas the Paulics signed in the register, in the land register,

22 immediately. Isn't that correct?

23 A. No, no, we couldn't transfer the title. We couldn't have

24 transferred the title unless it was all legal. Everything was legal. We

25 had all the permits, all the papers. There was no encumbering mortgages

Page 11943

1 or anything, loans.

2 Q. Ms. Paulic, you didn't give Dragutin Spiric all the necessary

3 documents. Your house was legal.

4 A. How could we have transferred it, then?

5 Q. With the help of the documents in Zagreb.

6 A. Of course.

7 Q. And Dragutin Spiric didn't have all the necessary documents to

8 register it in Ruma?

9 A. How could he have sold it?

10 Q. First he filed charges against you?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The interpreters are

13 complaining. Witness, you must wait for Mr. Seselj to be finished with

14 his question before answering, as it takes some time, but don't take too

15 long. And try not to answer too fast. Otherwise, the interpreters

16 cannot keep track of what you are saying.

17 Continue, Mr. Seselj.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we see a document from

19 the Prosecution binder, one that the Prosecution didn't want to use for

20 some reason. The Prosecution provided me the document evidence according

21 to which Dragutin Spiric filed charges against you.

22 Q. Ms. Paulic, did you cheat him?

23 A. No.

24 Q. He didn't file charges against you?

25 A. No.

Page 11944

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document on the

2 screen?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the documents weren't in order,

4 we wouldn't have been able to sell the house immediately and we wouldn't

5 have been able to open an establishment, a catering establishment.

6 Q. He didn't do anything, but he prosecuted you.

7 A. How could I have sold the house if the documents weren't in

8 order?

9 Q. When you did the exchange in Zagreb, you did not give

10 Dragutin Spiric all the necessary documents.

11 A. It wasn't necessary.

12 Q. It wasn't necessary because you wanted to cheat him?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And then Dragutin Spiric arrived in Hrtkovci. He was first

15 astounded because he had been given a house that wasn't as good as the

16 one he had, according to his wife. He also suffered a stroke shortly

17 after that. The house was empty, it wasn't furnished, there was nothing

18 in it, whereas he had left you all his property in the house in Zitnjak?

19 A. Were you listening to this?

20 Q. Well, no.

21 A. Did you listen to what I said in my statement? I said Spiric

22 went to have a look at a different house in Hrtkovci with my husband.

23 Q. That has nothing to do with what I'm asking you about.

24 A. Yes, it does. Listen to me. He saw my house. He brought a

25 photograph of my house with him and showed it to the lady. You said that

Page 11945

1 she was shedding tears, apparently, and complaining. Well, she said the

2 following, "Is it possible for us to actually get that house?" And they

3 told us that they had to go so that the children could be together,

4 because their son was in the Serbian army, in your army. He left the

5 army to go to the Serbian army and his daughter stayed in Zagreb.

6 Q. Did he wear a cockade hat?

7 A. I don't know. I didn't see him.

8 Q. Have a look at this document. It's a judgement from the Ruma

9 Municipal Court, issued because you and your husband didn't respond to

10 the charges.

11 A. We didn't receive it.

12 Q. It came into force on the 5th of October, 1993, and it states the

13 following:

14 "In the name of the people, the Municipal Court in Ruma, the

15 court of first instance in this litigation with Judge Dragan Mandic as

16 president of the Chamber, and illegal matter of Dragutin Spiric from

17 Hrtkovci, represented by Mladen Grbic, a lawyer from Ruma, against

18 Defendants Mile Paulic and Katica Paulic from Zagreb.

19 "With the purpose of establishment of facts, during the

20 preliminary hearing, the first hearing before the main hearing on the

21 16th of July, 1993, in the presence of the proxor [phoen] of the

22 plaintiff, in absence of the defence, who have been summoned, delivered

23 the following."

24 So the verdict for the failure to appear is as follows:

25 "It has been established that the plaintiff, Dragutin Spiric from

Page 11946

1 Hrtkovci, is the owner of property registered in Land Registry Hrtkovci

2 under number 1972; namely, the parcel number 15281, which is land

3 consisting of four areas," and so forth.

4 "The defendants are obliged to admit to the said and to issue a

5 tabulation fit to re-register the said property from the names."

6 You didn't want to issue him with that document so that he could

7 register the property. That's how you cheated him?

8 A. No, we didn't.

9 Q. He had to consult the courts, refer the matter to the courts?

10 A. He wanted to sell the property. He did so. That was his

11 intention, and that's it. Had we cheated him? Well, no, we didn't cheat

12 him. We didn't receive this document, however.

13 Q. Just pause there, please. It says you should have given him the

14 document so that he could register the property in the name of the person

15 filing the charges. It says:

16 "This verdict shall substitute for any opposite conduct on this

17 issue within 15 days, with the possibility of enforcement."

18 So Mr. Spiric had to go to court to prove that he had exchanged

19 houses with you. And on the basis of the court judgement, he had to

20 register his house in his name, because you didn't give him the documents

21 he needed to register the house. He provided you, however, with all the

22 documents you needed, and you had no problems to register the house in

23 Zagreb in your name.

24 Is that what this judgement, in fact, shows?

25 A. Well, I'll repeat what I said. We didn't receive this judgement,

Page 11947

1 and I'll repeat what I said. There was no reason for him to file such

2 charges, because all our documents were in order.

3 Q. In that case, why would he file such charges, if there was no

4 reason?

5 A. You have to ask him that question. I don't know.

6 Q. Why would the Court issue a judgement if all the documents were

7 available? Are you a little surprised by this judgement?

8 A. Yes, naturally.

9 Q. When did you have the proofing session with the Prosecution?

10 A. What proofing?

11 Q. Did you speak to the Prosecution yesterday or the day before?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When? How long did the conversation last?

14 A. It was very brief.

15 Q. Were you shown the contents of the conversation or were you shown

16 this list that you can see, this document, in the course of the proofing?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he ask you what it meant?

19 A. I said I had nothing to do with it. I said I knew nothing about

20 it.

21 Q. You said that Dragutin Spiric didn't file charges against you a

22 minute ago?

23 A. I have never received this.

24 Q. But the Prosecution showed this to you.

25 A. Do you understand me?

Page 11948

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the speakers to

2 slow down and to pause between question and answers. It's impossible to

3 follow like this.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't receive that document. I

5 can't say I received the document, because I didn't.

6 MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did the Prosecution show you the document yesterday?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have a look at it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you read through it all?

12 A. Yes, I read through it, and I was surprised.

13 Q. In that case, when I asked you whether Dragutin Spiric filed

14 charges against you, why did you say "no"?

15 A. Well, he didn't file charges against me. I didn't receive the

16 document.

17 Q. The Prosecution informed you of the fact that Dragutin Spiric did

18 file charges against you.

19 A. Very well. So he filed charges? So what? What he wanted to do,

20 he managed to.

21 Q. What did he want to do?

22 A. Well, I have no idea. You should ask him.

23 Q. He wanted to register the house in his name, the one that he

24 exchanged for his own house.

25 A. Well, then he was successful.

Page 11949

1 Q. But that was only one year later.

2 A. And he sold it four months after the exchange.

3 Q. How could he have done it without having registered it?

4 A. Well, I don't know.

5 Q. Are you sure he sold it after four months?

6 A. He boasted about it.

7 Q. But he couldn't register the house, and he couldn't transfer the

8 house to some other owner.

9 A. Very well.

10 Q. But his house or the house was so bad that he sold it for

11 nothing, and what he got for your house -- well, for what he got for your

12 house, he could have bought a flat of 60 square metres.

13 A. He boasted he could buy two.

14 Q. No, he didn't. You've amended that.

15 A. No.

16 Q. But you wanted to cheat him?

17 A. He built everything.

18 Q. You wanted to cheat him, didn't you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You didn't?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So why didn't you give him this tabulation document so that he

23 could register the house?

24 A. Everything was in order.

25 Q. What do you mean? He didn't receive it?

Page 11950

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. This judgement was one that he used instead of the tabulation

3 document so that he could register the house in his name.

4 A. I don't know. They're always murky affairs.

5 Q. Is this a murky affair?

6 A. Probably.

7 Q. In what sense?

8 A. He knows about that.

9 Q. I wouldn't be aware of this document if the Prosecution hadn't

10 provided me with it. Did the Prosecution create this?

11 A. I don't know, I have no idea.

12 Q. Ms. Paulic, you didn't manage to cheat Dragutin Spiric, at least

13 not completely; is that correct?

14 A. That's your conclusion.

15 Q. And when you exchanged houses and went to live in Zagreb, your

16 husband --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Ferrara.

18 MR. FERRARA: [Interpretation] I'd like a clarification.

19 Mr. Seselj said that he is not aware of this document, because I

20 found this document in his book, in his "Hrtkovci Affair" book here,

21 immediately after the declaration of the wife of Mr. Dragutin Spiric.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You see,

23 Mr. Seselj, that the Prosecutor read your book, because he found this

24 document in your book.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We're advancing.

Page 11951

1 MR. FERRARA: This he should answer, instead of laughing.

2 There's nothing to laugh, I think.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that I

4 wouldn't even be aware of the document if the Prosecution hadn't provided

5 me with it. So we have some stylistic nuances here now. But I showed

6 you the original of the document that the Prosecution gave me, not my

7 book. As if I can remember what my 1.200-page book contains? So

8 everything is contained in it, Mr. President, especially since on the

9 basis of my instructions, others drafted the book. But it was on the

10 basis of my very strict instructions, so I am the author of the book.

11 They were just doing what I wanted. It's a book compiled of documents.

12 It contains documents alone, nothing else.

13 And Mr. Ferrara would like to exchange the thesis here. The

14 point is to establish why the witness wanted to cheat Dragutin Spiric

15 when exchanging property. The point isn't whether this document that I

16 got from the Prosecution is in my book or not. Naturally, my associates

17 looked into everything in detail and obtained far more documents than the

18 Prosecution could even dream of.

19 MR. FERRARA: Well, Your Honour, maybe the Prosecution can inform

20 Mr. Seselj that the document is in his book, allegedly his book at the

21 time, page 386, 387, 388, immediately after the declaration, the

22 statement of the wife of Dragutin Spiric.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we're just wasting

24 time for no reason. Why should I refer to my book and then have

25 Mr. Ferrara up on his feet because the book hasn't been translated? I

Page 11952

1 can refer to the document that he provided me with. It's easier. He

2 can't say it hasn't been translated, because you have received this

3 document in the English language. So why all this muddle now?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fine. This is a minor matter.

5 We have 15 minutes before we adjourn. Please try to conclude.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will conclude by then -- I

7 wouldn't say it's a subsidiary matter, because this undermines the

8 credibility of this witness, given the attempt to cheat someone when

9 exchanging property. I don't think you could have been provided with

10 anything more convincing.

11 Q. Where did your brother, Franja Baricevic, go to, Ms. Paulic?

12 A. To Jaksic.

13 Q. That's near Slavonska Pozega; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then your son went to Franja Baricevic on a number of

16 occasions?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Never? What's the distance between Zagreb and Pozega?

19 A. What is it? 150 kilometres at the most?

20 Q. No, 350 from Zagreb to Pozega.

21 A. There was a war, so the motorway was closed, so you had to go

22 around, yes.

23 Q. Very well. When you exchanged this house with Dragan Spiric, you

24 went to Zagreb, and your husband and son stayed on in Serbia for a little

25 while?

Page 11953

1 A. Not for a certain while, but to save the house. They returned to

2 save the house because Mico didn't have any papers.

3 Q. You waited for your son to complete the secondary school for

4 internal affairs in Sremska Kamenica, and then with a diploma from the

5 police school, he could go to Zagreb with his father; that was the

6 reason?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So you didn't just move around because you are under threat; you

9 were able to move out comfortably. You could choose a house that you

10 wanted, that you liked?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. No, it wasn't like that.

14 Q. So why did you make up the story that I mentioned

15 Dragutin Vuksanic in my speech, a doctor from Hrtkovci? He was a

16 well-liked person in Hrtkovci; isn't that correct?

17 A. Well, I don't know whether he was well liked. He was a doctor.

18 It was Branko Vuksanic, that was his name.

19 Q. Branimir, is that his name?

20 A. Branko.

21 Q. Did the Serbs trust him, and the Croats as well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was he well known in the broader area as someone whose diagnoses

24 were exceptional? He could have a look at you and diagnose your illness;

25 isn't that correct? So why would anyone disturb that man?

Page 11954

1 A. Well, why did he move out?

2 Q. Well, he moved out because he was cheated, deception was

3 involved.

4 A. That's what you say.

5 Q. Because of deception, because people from Belgrade came to

6 convince him that he should move out, and they said that if he didn't do

7 so, a lot of Croats would follow him?

8 A. Since he was such a good doctor, I don't believe that he would

9 have fallen for such words.

10 Q. Yes, but the offer was attractive.

11 A. That's what others say.

12 Q. But you heard others saying that?

13 A. No, I assume that was the case.

14 Q. You assume. So you're testifying about something that you

15 assume?

16 A. No. You're making this up.

17 Q. We're still using the "T" form, the familiar form of address.

18 A. Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

19 Q. Very well. Do you know Niko Kraljevic, the local priest?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know him well?

22 A. Well, do I know him well? I don't know my husband very well, let

23 alone him.

24 Q. You don't even know your own husband?

25 A. I don't know him well.

Page 11955

1 Q. How should I understand that?

2 A. Well, think about it.

3 Q. I can't think about that. I'm sorry, I have to disappoint you.

4 How about Niko Kraljevic; was he known for a drinking problem?

5 A. To some extent, yes.

6 Q. Was he prone to causing trouble when drunk?

7 A. No.

8 Q. He never attacked anyone?

9 A. No. He was known for merry-making and singing.

10 Q. Do you know he attacked Djordje Obric from Sabac when inebriated?

11 A. I don't know that man Djordje and I never heard of this case.

12 Q. So you don't know. Very well. Have you heard of Mijat Stefanac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he suffering from a drinking problem?

15 A. No. He lives at one end of the village, and I at another.

16 Q. Do you know he was killed in Hrtkovci?

17 A. I heard about that when I was already in Zagreb.

18 Q. He was killed somewhere between Hrtkovci and Batkovici?

19 A. I heard he was tortured. It was awful.

20 Q. Do you know the motives for murder?

21 A. He let strangers into his own house.

22 Q. But it's not those strangers that killed him. His wife had left

23 him, and his sons had left. He allowed refugees into his house.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But it's not the refugees who killed him, or did you hear

Page 11956

1 otherwise?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. I'm interested in this story, because it had spread among people

4 in Hrtkovci, especially the Croats who'd left.

5 A. I was in Zagreb.

6 Q. But you heard the story, that he was killed by Serbian refugees

7 that he allowed into his house; is that what you heard? Say it loud and

8 clear, because we can't record your head nodding.

9 Do you know it was established before the Court that he was

10 killed by completely other people?

11 A. I am only telling you what I heard. I'm not claiming anything.

12 Q. And all the rest that's said is also what you heard; you're not

13 claiming anything?

14 A. I can say what I know, and I can tell you honestly when I'm

15 saying something I only heard.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've completed my

17 cross-examination.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 Mr. Ferrara, any re-examination?

20 MR. FERRARA: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, on behalf of my fellow

22 Judges, I would like to thank you for having come and testify here. The

23 cross-examination may have come as a surprise for you, but pursuant to

24 the Rules of this Tribunal, both the Prosecution and the Defence are

25 allowed to cross-examine witnesses. That's the way it's organised here.