Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12704

 1                           Tuesday, 9 December 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 8.31 a.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 9             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Vojislav Seselj.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you,

13     Mr. Registrar.

14             This is Tuesday, December 9, 2008, and I welcome everyone in the

15     courtroom.  I welcome the representatives of the OTP, I welcome

16     Mr. Seselj, as well as everyone helping us.

17             As you know, we will be hearing a witness that has been granted

18     protective measures.  Therefore, I will not give his name.  This witness

19     will testify today.  This is witness VS-1028.  The Prosecution has been

20     granted one hour.  Mr. Seselj, one hour.

21             After this witness, we will have a court witness tomorrow,

22     VS-044.

23             The Trial Chamber said that after questions from the Bench, and

24     that should take about an hour and a half or two hours, the Prosecution

25     will have one hour and Mr. Seselj will also have an hour.  And then we'll

Page 12705

 1     end the week with a 92 ter witness.  So that's the schedule for this

 2     week.

 3             I believe that Mr. Seselj has a few housekeeping matters to deal

 4     with.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have two issues that I wish

 6     to raise, Mr. President.

 7             First of all, on Friday, I believe, I received an urgent addendum

 8     to the Prosecution motion to end the right of the accused to

 9     self-represent, and since this motion has 20 pages, exactly, 7.765 words,

10     more than twice the limit, the usual limit, I need additional time to

11     file my response.  I ordered Zoran Krasic, my legal adviser, to draft a

12     response, but my wife, Jadranka Seselj, could only bring the response

13     next Tuesday, next week, so I would like to ask for the deadline for the

14     filing of my response to the addendum to the motion by that time.  So I

15     would be able to file it on Tuesday.  That's one thing.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, since

17     your wife is coming next Tuesday and will bring the response, we grant

18     you this motion.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second request, second motion,

20     I did the rough version this morning.  I was caught by surprise by the

21     fact that the Prosecution has given me a confidential decision on the

22     actions taken pursuant to a confidential decision of the Chamber dated

23     the 6th of November.  I will not now go into the Prosecution explanation,

24     because it is confidential, but the decision that you actually filed on

25     the 6th of November is not confidential.  And here it says that you

Page 12706

 1     decided to admit, pursuant to Rule 92 quater, the statement by

 2     Ljubisa Petkovic.  I have yet to receive them.  I am actually quite

 3     astonished that you have made this decision, and, secondly, because the

 4     Prosecution is already acting upon it, despite the fact that the decision

 5     has not been communicated to me.

 6             I will, of course, be challenging any decision admitting anyone's

 7     statements pursuant to Rule 92 quater, persons who are not available to

 8     the Court, who are deceased, and in particular persons who are not

 9     available to the Court.  You had Ljubisa Petkovic here for four months.

10     You convicted him on contempt of court charges.  He was in the

11     Detention Unit, and it is impossible to admit any statements of his under

12     92 quater.  If you actually did make this decision, it is contrary to the

13     decision that you communicated to me, rejecting my motion and the motion

14     of the Prosecution, in which we sought the access to the complete record

15     of the proceedings in the contempt of court charges against

16     Ljubisa Petkovic.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to answer straight

18     away, but let's move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're back in open session.

 8             Our witness is about to testify.  He's been granted protective

 9     measures, so before he comes in, we're going to lower the blinds.  They

10     will be raised again once the witness is protected by the screen and has

11     made his solemn declaration.

12             Mr. Registrar, can you lower the blinds and can you fetch the

13     witness.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's move into closed session,

16     Mr. Registrar.

17                           [Closed session]

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Page 12714











11 Pages 12714-12715 redacted. Closed session.















Page 12716

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may proceed,

17     Mr. Mussemeyer.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, you have already told us that you were born in

21     Bijeljina.  Did you live your whole life in Bijeljina?

22        A.   Yes, until the war broke out.  I worked in Austria for a time.

23        Q.   Did you make your military service somewhere at that time?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  I did my military service in Pristina in 1984-1985.

25        Q.   Can you tell us which unit you were trained at the military and

Page 12717

 1     in what arms -- in using of arms were you trained?

 2        A.   I was light anti-aircraft artillery, which is a three-barrelled

 3     20-millimetre cannon.

 4        Q.   When did you finish your military service?

 5        A.   In 1985, the month of November.

 6        Q.   Where did you go after you finished your military service?

 7        A.   I went to my birthplace in Bijeljina.  I didn't have any work.  I

 8     just did odd jobs.  I didn't have steady employment in any firm or

 9     anything like that.  I worked privately.

10        Q.   Have you ever been a member of a political party?

11        A.   Yes.  In 1991, I was a member of the SDA.

12        Q.   Do you know if also other parties existed in Bijeljina at that

13     time?

14        A.   Yes, there were other parties; the SDS, the SRS -- the Serbian

15     Radical Party, that is, the SPD, and several other smaller parties.  But

16     mostly the main parties were the SDA, the Serbian Radical Party, and the

17     SDS.

18        Q.   Do you know who established the Serbian Radical Party at

19     Bijeljina?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  Mirko Blagojevic.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly be asked to speak up,

22     please.  Thank you.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

24        Q.   Do you know also members of the Serbian Radical Party who were

25     living at Bijeljina at that time?

Page 12718

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, please, when you

 2     answer, could you please try to speak loud, loudly, so that the

 3     interpreters can hear you.  I also noted that the interpreters told me

 4     that sometimes you use German words, so please try to only speak your own

 5     language, with words of your own language, so that the interpreters don't

 6     run into difficulties with words of another language they don't

 7     understand.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, no problem there.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

10        Q.   I repeat my question.  Do you remember also other members of the

11     Serbian Radical Party at Bijeljina?

12        A.   Yes, I do.  I remember there was Sumar.  That was the nickname

13     for Filipovic.  And there was Pero Simic and Tuzlancic, who was the

14     editor -- well, not the editor, but he was the head of Radio Bijeljina.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Do you know if the Serb Radical Party

16     had a party office in Bijeljina?

17        A.   I don't remember whether it had a party office, but I do remember

18     that they conducted similar discussions in a cafe called Srbija.

19        Q.   Did you also go to the Cafe Srbija?

20        A.   Yes, I did, because the Srbija Cafe was in my town, so of course

21     I'd go there.

22        Q.   Did you always go there alone or were you in company with others?

23        A.   I would sometimes go alone, and at other times I would go with

24     other people, with my friends.  I was going out with a Russian girl, and

25     I would go and have a cup of coffee with her there.

Page 12719

 1        Q.   What was the reason for you to go to the Cafe Srbija?

 2        A.   Because during the war in Croatia and in Vukovar, when it all

 3     started, I was interested in hearing what happened and whether something

 4     similar would happen to us in Bosnia.

 5        Q.   For that reason, you had to go to the Cafe Srbija?

 6        A.   Well, I went for that reason and, well, mostly because the same

 7     thing was brewing up in Bosnia as had happened in Croatia, so I was

 8     interested to hear the latest news, and I went to see what was going to

 9     happen and things like that.

10        Q.   Did you do this also in the interests of your party?

11        A.   I was working in the interests of my party, but also in my own

12     interests and in the interests of my own people, of course.

13        Q.   Can you describe us the atmosphere in the Cafe Srbija?

14        A.   Already at the beginning, when the war had already started in

15     Croatia, in the Srbija Cafe you can feel animosity towards the Croats and

16     Serbs; total hatred, in fact.  And when it all started in Croatia,

17     I think that it was 100 per cent certain that the same thing would happen

18     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the war and all the rest of it, and that they

19     couldn't take it anymore; they couldn't take the non-Serbs, because it

20     was only Serbs that gathered in the Srbija Cafe.

21             A long time ago, all the ethnic groups would gather together

22     there in the cafe, but just prior to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there

23     were members of the Serbian Radical Party going to the cafe, and it was

24     only Serbs that frequented it in the end.

25        Q.   Did you realise a kind of hate against non-Serbs there?  And if

Page 12720

 1     so, who pronounced this?

 2        A.   Of course there was hatred towards the other ethnic groups, the

 3     non-Serbs, and this was expressed mostly by Mirko Blagojevic and the

 4     other people who led the Serbian Radical Party.

 5        Q.   Did they say what should happen to the non-Serbs if the war

 6     breaks out?

 7        A.   Yes.  They said that anybody who wasn't loyal to the Serbs and

 8     the Serbian Radical Party, and Serbs in general, would be killed,

 9     slaughtered, and then the rest of those who weren't loyal should be sent

10     to -- the Muslims to Turkey, the Croats to Croatia, so that the Serbian

11     part of Bijeljina shall remain ethnically pure.

12        Q.   Was there a specific expression for the non-Serbs used by these

13     members of the SRS?

14        A.   Yes.  They referred to us Muslims as Ustashas.  They said we were

15     Ustashas and linked to Croatia, linked up to Croats, that kind of thing;

16     that we were balijas, Ustashas, things like that.

17        Q.   So also for Muslims, the expression "Ustashas" was used?

18        A.   Yes, that's right, that was used.

19        Q.   Do you know the ethnic composition of Bijeljina at that time; how

20     many Muslims lived there, how many Croats, and how many Serbs?

21        A.   As a town, the town, well, in the municipality I think there was

22     75 Muslims, 20 per cent was Serbs and 5 per cent was Croats and others.

23     The but when I say 75 per cent Muslims, I include the Romas, who were

24     also Muslims.

25        Q.   Have there already been clashes before the outbreak of the

Page 12721

 1     conflict at Bijeljina?

 2        A.   There were clashes -- well, not clashes.  It's more that the

 3     steelworkers were let go who were Muslims.  The workers, the

 4     editor-in-chief, Jusuf Trbic, of Radio Bijeljina was let go, and other

 5     people as well who were Muslims, and you could feel the hatred then, the

 6     hatred of the Serbs towards the Muslims.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, what I'm specifically interested in --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please speak

 9     louder?  The interpreters are really having a very difficult time hearing

10     you.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, what I'm specifically interested is:  Can you give

13     me a reason, how is it possible for you, as a Muslim, who grew up in

14     Bijeljina, where everybody knew that you were a Muslim, to go into a

15     Serbian cafe?  How is this possible?

16   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need to

24     redact line 14 and after.  (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12722

 1     (redacted) everyone will know who he is.

 2             Mr. Prosecutor.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 4        Q.   A while ago, you mentioned you were going there with a Russian

 5     girlfriend.  How was this received by the Muslims -- by the Serbs?

 6     Excuse me.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, this was not

 9     interpreted?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they didn't like it.  That's

11     natural.  But I was a young guy, she was a little older, and she was

12     going around with a number of Serbs.  She had several boyfriends, and I

13     would go there with her.

14             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

15        Q.   Do you know if also other Muslims went to this cafe or worked

16     there?

17        A.   I don't know.  I can't remember whether they worked there or went

18     there.  I think they did before the clashes in Bijeljina started.

19        Q.   So you could go to this cafe without being recognised as a Muslim

20     or as an SDA member; is that true?

21        A.   Yes, that's true.  That's how it was.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, what did you do with

23     alcohol?  I assume that in these cafes, alcohol was served, so what was

24     your attitude towards alcohol?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question.

Page 12723

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  In this cafe, there were

 2     Serbs, and I assume that alcohol was served.  What did you do?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't drink alcohol when I went.

 4     I went to have a cup of coffee.  I drank coffee.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 6        Q.   Do you know if also Mr. Seselj frequented this Cafe Srbija when

 7     he was in Bijeljina?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, he would come by.

 9        Q.   Did you see him, and when was that?

10        A.   I did see him before -- well, mid-March, he came with

11     Mirko Blagojevic and the other two or three bodyguards or whatever they

12     were.

13        Q.   Did you see him also before this, before March?

14        A.   Yes, I did, I saw him before March too.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, in the interests of Mr. Seselj, I

16     would like to go into private session for my next question.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's move into

18     private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

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Page 12724











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Page 12725

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 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you remember if Mr. Seselj was in the company of

10     a woman at that time, and what was her name?

11        A.   I think her name was Suada.  She was a nurse, as far as I

12     remember.  I never had any contact with her, nor did I know her before

13     that.

14        Q.   I will come back to the first event when you told us that you saw

15     Mr. Seselj and Mr. Blagojevic at the beginning of March 1992.  Do you

16     know what they were discussing about?

17        A.   They were talking about killing the Muslims if they weren't loyal

18     to the Serbs, exterminating them, and that those Muslims who remained

19     would be expelled to Turkey and the Croats to Croatia.

20        Q.   Can you a bit specify when was this that you overheard this

21     conversation?

22        A.   I happened to overhear it in the Srbija Cafe.  I was sitting not

23     far from Blagojevic and Mr. Seselj.

24        Q.   Can you tell us how far you were away from Mr. Seselj and

25     Mr. Blagojevic, approximately?

Page 12726

 1        A.   I think it was about four metres away.  Anyway, I would hear

 2     quite clearly what they were talking about.  I think I heard it

 3     correctly.

 4        Q.   When this conversation took place, was it in the evening or was

 5     it in the afternoon; can you let us know?

 6        A.   It was in the afternoon, as far as I remember.

 7        Q.   Do you remember how many persons, approximately, were in the cafe

 8     at that time?

 9        A.   I remember that there might have been 10 to 15 people.

10        Q.   Do you remember how Mr. Seselj was dressed that day?

11        A.   Mr. Seselj was wearing a suit and a sort of white coat -- well,

12     not actually white coat, but a sort of light-coloured formed coat.

13        Q.   Where in the cafe were they, in the corner or in the middle of

14     the cafe?  Can you describe this?

15        A.   The two of them were standing by the bar.

16        Q.   And you could clearly overhear what they were talking about?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did hear what they were talking about.

18        Q.   Did they mention what they would do with the non-Serbs in

19     Bijeljina after the outbreak of a conflict?

20        A.   Yes.  They said they would kill them, and anybody who remained,

21     they would be expelled to Turkey, as I said; and the Croats would be

22     forced to go to Croatia if they weren't loyal to the Serbs and the

23     Serbian Radical Party in that town, the town I lived in.

24        Q.   Do you know why they had this plan or what was the aim of this

25     plan?

Page 12727

 1        A.   The aim of the plan was to cause incidents to break out or to do

 2     something in Bijeljina to promote clashes.  And an incident did break out

 3     there in Bosnia -- well, they wanted to cause an incident so that the

 4     conflicts could start in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're talking about

 6     plans, so we have two situations.  We have Mr. Seselj and

 7     Mirko Blagojevic, who are standing at the bar of the cafe, and you

 8     overheard Mr. Seselj say, "We need to kill them."  That's what you hear?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is the other aspect, the

11     aspect of the plan.  Do you think that a plan, such a large-scale plan,

12     can be drafted in a cafe, at a bar?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that any vital plans

14     were elaborated in the cafe, but what they were talking about in the cafe

15     is what actually happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina ultimately.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After having overheard this,

17     and noting what happened later in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you concluded that

18     there indeed was a plan; is that it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was of course a plan to

20     exterminate the Muslims.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Mussemeyer.

22             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

23        Q.   Did they also mention units who should participate in this kind

24     of cleansing?

25        A.   Yes, they did mention units:  Arkan's units, the Yugoslav

Page 12728

 1     People's Army, the reservists, the volunteers, and of course the local

 2     Serbs who were in the Serbian Radical Party.

 3        Q.   What was your reaction after you left the cafe?

 4        A.   Well, I went home, of course, and told my mother what was going

 5     on.

 6        Q.   You told us you were also a member of the SDA.  Did you inform

 7     your party members?

 8        A.   No, I did not inform them, because I didn't trust the members or

 9     some members of the SDA party.  And the others, the rest, well, they were

10     normally good people.  But members of the SDA, the leaders of the SDA in

11     Bijeljina, were not -- it wasn't safe -- they couldn't be trusted.  It

12     wasn't safe to tell them.

13        Q.   Do you know what happened to other party members later on?  Were

14     some lists found, or what happened to them?

15        A.   That evening when the conflicts broke out in Bijeljina, all the

16     lists remained with the names and surnames.  They remained in SDA

17     premises.  And when there was shooting in the evening, the Serbs took

18     those lists.  And after that, after the end of the clash in Bijeljina,

19     when it was over, they went from house to house looking for SDA members.

20     They beat them up, and they even killed some.

21        Q.   Are you aware if some paramilitary forces were already deployed

22     in the surrounding areas of Bijeljina?

23        A.   Yes.  Arkan's units were deployed there, I think in the area

24     around the Drina River, Popovi and Amajlije, that they were in the motels

25     there, and that they came into town from that direction.

Page 12729

 1        Q.   Do you remember the date when the conflict started in Bijeljina?

 2        A.   The 31st of March, in the evening, at about 10.00 or 11.00 --

 3     8.00, 9.00, thereabouts.

 4        Q.   How did this start?

 5        A.   In front of the Srbija Cafe, which the Serbian Radical Party had

 6     provided security for -- or, rather, they had their weapons there, a bomb

 7     was thrown -- a hand grenade was thrown into the Stambol Cafe, and the

 8     proprietor was Gogic.  Well, that was his nickname.  Akmedzic might have

 9     been his name.  Anyway, a hand grenade was thrown into the cafe, and on

10     the occasion two people were injured.  One of them was my neighbour.  Can

11     I give his name?

12        Q.   It's not necessary for me.  Can you explain us how did your Serb

13     neighbours react or behave at the day of the attack?

14        A.   That evening, since the Serbs were in my neighbourhood, not a

15     single Serb was home.  All the lights were off, and they that gone to

16     their villages, where their parents lived, their family, their mothers,

17     where they were born, in fact; they went back to their native villages,

18     and that means that they knew something was going to happen that night.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we move on to that

20     topic, let me come back, Witness, to this conversation you overheard in

21     the cafe.  It is important, because in the Prosecution's pre-trial brief,

22     that was mentioned in paragraph 78, 79 and 80.  So what you're saying is

23     extremely important, and it is worthy of some further investigation.

24             So you were in this cafe.  You overheard what was said.  You

25     spoke about it to your mother, but you did not mention that to the SDA

Page 12730

 1     because you didn't trust them, you say.  But how is it, then, given the

 2     circumstances where you potentially could have been a target, because

 3     they wanted to kill all the non-Serbs, why did you not flee immediately?

 4     Why didn't you tell your mother that she had to go as well because

 5     something very serious is about to happen, is being prepared?  So why

 6     didn't you do that straight away?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I had family, my brothers

 8     and everybody else.  Why should I leave the place I was born in, why?

 9     Just because I'm a Muslim?  Why?  And I hoped that what happened

10     ultimately would not happen.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But based on what you

12     say, it seems that you heard Mr. Seselj say, "We'll have to kill them,

13     they'll have to be killed," and then the Croats or the -- will be

14     expelled or the Muslims will be expelled to Turkey if they have not been

15     killed.  So if what you overheard was indeed said, there's a major risk

16     for everybody, isn't there?  Then somebody overhearing this would flee.

17     And you say, no, because you had some relatives.  Did you not say

18     anything to your brothers, to all the other relatives, that there was

19     some risk?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I doubted that things

21     like that would actually happen.  I just couldn't believe it, because

22     President Alija Izetbegovic called for peace, he said that we should

23     go -- we shouldn't go to war against anyone, that there should not be a

24     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.  So what I heard, I didn't take

25     seriously enough for me to get into a panic and tell my mother that we

Page 12731

 1     should flee and so on.  Why?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So when you overheard that, you

 3     didn't take it seriously because they might have been things you say in a

 4     bar?  You know, in bars, people would say anything.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did understand what they

 6     were saying, but not to the extent that I thought we should flee.  Why

 7     should we flee, why?

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you thought that this peril

 9     was not imminent?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It wasn't that great a peril, that

11     great a danger, because the war hadn't broken out yet.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I will come back to the moment when the war

14     already broke out or the conflict broke out.

15        Q.   Can you please tell us how the Muslim population reacted to these

16     first shootings?

17        A.   That was in the evening, and the first shots reverberated, and

18     then a spontaneous group of young men, some 15 or 20 of us, set up some

19     barricades with sandbags and things in the Jugoslavska -- in the JNA

20     Street, Yugoslav People's Army Street, and we tried to prevent something

21     to prevent them from killing our families and so on.  So we had a truck

22     and sandbags, and we set up a barricade using that; and we just stood by

23     to see what would happen next.

24        Q.   You said "we."  Can I conclude that you also participated in this

25     erecting of barricades?

Page 12732

 1        A.   Yes, I was there.  I was there, personally, yes.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, so barricades were

 3     erected.  We can easily imagine how it all happened, but chronology, the

 4     sequence of event, is important.

 5             Were these barricades erected after the shooting was heard or

 6     were they constructed before, which is not the same thing?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The barricades were erected after

 8     the shooting, afterwards, the next day in the morning, at around 9.00 or

 9     10.00, 8.00 maybe, not even.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand properly, the

11     Muslims were a majority, 75 per cent of the population in Bijeljina.  Is

12     that correct?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many inhabitants were there

15     in Bijeljina at the time?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think as a municipality, it had

17     33.000 inhabitants, up to 35.000.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a municipality with 33.000

19     inhabitants, were there only 20 people to erect this barricade?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not 20.  I'm just talking about

21     my area, which was called Gozdavic, Tombak Mahala and Hambar Mahala.  So

22     in other parts, barricades were also erected, and in the center of town

23     you had the Serbs, the Serbian Radical Party, Arkan's men, and the

24     Yugoslav People's Army.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there were other barricades.

Page 12733

 1     Well, there where you were on that barricade, did you have any weapons?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes -- no, we didn't have much

 3     weapons.  We had maybe four automatic rifles and three to four -- or two

 4     to three hunting rifles, three pistols, one sniper, and perhaps two or

 5     three hand grenades, but nothing much.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 8        Q.   Do you know which forces -- which units on the Serb side were

 9     involved in the attacks?

10        A.   The Serbian Radical Party of Mirko Blagojevic and

11     Vojislav Seselj, and Arkan's men, the reservists, and even, I would say,

12     the Yugoslav People's Army, who was in the garrison there, in the

13     barracks.

14        Q.   Could you distinguish between these different units?  And if so,

15     by which way?

16        A.   Arkan's men had modern weapons.  They were the sort of specials

17     and were well armed, whereas the Serbian Radical Party was also armed,

18     but they didn't have any special uniforms.  So, yes, I was able to

19     distinguish between them, because Arkan's men had insignias, had the

20     tiger insignia on their uniforms, so you could see them.  And they were

21     ready and prepared, these Arkan's men, whereas Seselj's men, well, some

22     wore uniforms, others had, well, civilian clothes, jeans, the fur hats

23     with the cockades, things like that.

24        Q.   Did you realise a kind of cooperation between Seselj's men and

25     Arkan's men?

Page 12734

 1        A.   Yes.  Seselj's men and Mirko Blagojevic's men, well, people knew

 2     a lot of the local inhabitants because they lived in town, they lived

 3     there together with us; so they went ahead and the others went behind

 4     them.  Arkan's men went behind, because this first lot, well, they knew

 5     how to move through Bijeljina.  They knew Bijeljina, the town of

 6     Bijeljina, well.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, at this point I would like to

 8     have the document 65 ter number 2115 seen on the monitor.  And for the

 9     witness, it's page 4, which I want to have him shown.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, what is the

11     origin of the document?

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The origin is a book which Mr. Seselj gave to

13     the Prosecution on the 29th of October, 2003, together with 73 other

14     books.  That day, he gave us 74 books, and it is his books -- the title

15     is "Serbia's Mr. And Mrs. Caucesku":

16             "On visits to RS and RSK population movements in Eastern Bosnia

17     and in Herzegovina, Chetnik activity in Bijeljina."

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, I would like you to read where it starts:

19             "Did you believe that Arkan's influence in Semberija is so

20     powerful ..."

21             Did you find it?  It's the third paragraph, I think.  My B/C/S is

22     not that good.  Please read slowly so that the interpreters can follow.

23        A.   "Arkan --" maybe it's this bit:

24             "Over the last few months, Arkan was really mentioned in the

25     Western media in the context of the war crimes and in The Hague,

Page 12735

 1     et cetera.  Did you have any specific with the Western --"

 2        Q.   I think it's the second dot which you can see on this page.

 3     Could you please read this?

 4        A.   Yes.  "I think that Arkan -- I think that Arkan had such strong

 5     influence in Semberija, that it was so powerful that he came up against

 6     no resistance from the powers that be in Republika Srpska, and if --"

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  The witness obviously

 8     doesn't know how to read.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read Cyrillic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He read out, "I think," where it

11     says the word is "do you think that," that's the question, and he said,

12     "I think that Arkan's influence ..." so we're dealing with a question,

13     and then there's an answer where as he was reading the question as being

14     an observation because he's assuming and guessing what the text says.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Seselj, but I

16     can't read Cyrillic, so I can't understand these letters of theirs.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the witness

18     cannot read Cyrillic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I repeat that?

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I'm a bit surprised about that, because I showed

21     him this document yesterday, and I had the impression that he fully

22     understood.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you want to say something?

24        A.   May I read it again, because the letters were very small, so I

25     couldn't read them properly.

Page 12736

 1        Q.   Please do so.

 2        A.   "Do you think that Arkan's influence in Semberija is so strong

 3     that none of this is met with any opposition from the official

 4     authorities of Republika Srpska, if everything is indeed as you claim?"

 5        Q.   Could you please also read Mr. Seselj's answer?  Read it.  It's

 6     the following text.  Please read it.

 7        A.   "Arkan has no influence there whatsoever.  He only took 29 of his

 8     men to Bijeljina.  Bijeljina was liberated by the Bijeljina residents,

 9     and it was our Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic that made the greatest effort

10     there.  Our volunteers were the first to get there, the first to get

11     organised and carry out all actions."

12        Q.   Is this correct, what is said by Mr. Seselj?  Does this conform

13     with your experience?

14        A.   That is quite true.

15        Q.   So it's true that Arkan had no influence in the takeover?

16        A.   That is quite true.

17        Q.   You say "quite," but not "100 per cent."  Is it true?  What was

18     the participation of Arkan's men and Seselj's men?

19        A.   It is 100 per cent true.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to move this

21     document into evidence.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

23     number for this document which originates from Mr. Seselj's book.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  This document shall be given

25     Exhibit number P682.

Page 12737

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I demand that this entire text be

 4     admitted into evidence, not only this excerpt, because the entirety of

 5     the text, I think, fully explains what it was that was happening there.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We take note of what you have

 7     said.

 8             Witness, I'd like to return to the answer provided then by

 9     Mr. Seselj to that question.  It appears from the answer that the

10     residents of Bijeljina, led by Mirko Blagojevic, have taken over the town

11     and that apparently Arkan played only a secondary part because he only

12     had 20 of his men with him.  But after that, the text does continue, and

13     it seems that Arkan's men committed a lot of offences, like plundering.

14             You were on the ground.  What was your impression as to the armed

15     force that took over control of the municipality?  Was it made up of

16     Bijeljina residents or Arkan's men?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say this?  Arkan's men

18     mostly came from Serbia, because I know the Serbian accent, and I know

19     how different it is from the accent of people from Bijeljina.

20             The Serbian Radical Party, with Mirko Blagojevic, was

21     established, and it consisted only of Serbs from Bijeljina and from the

22     municipality of Bijeljina.  For the most part -- well, not for the most

23     part.  100 per cent, they were the ones who took Bijeljina, and they were

24     the ones who committed many, many crimes.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You say "100 per cent," so

Page 12738

 1     you're speaking about Blagojevic's men?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100 per cent, Blagojevic.  Arkan

 3     was just an insignificant person.  He didn't know anyone there.  He

 4     committed some crimes on the basis of Mirko Blagojevic, because

 5     Mirko Blagojevic knew that if he did anything, he'd be accused or

 6     whatever.  So Arkan was just an insignificant person there in Bijeljina.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you, you Muslims, resist these attacks by Serb

10     forces?

11        A.   Since we had very few weapons, we could not resist these attacks

12     of the Serbs coming from town, and we had our barricades mostly by the

13     hospital.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecutor has

15     just mentioned Serb forces.  Well, there's a connotation in there.  It

16     could encompass JNA, Territorial Defence, the Bijeljina residents who

17     were a member of the Serbian Radical Party, Arkan's men, et cetera.

18     Those who are the main actors in that operation, who were they?  It was

19     said, but it has to be on record.  Were they Bijeljina residents, led by

20     Mirko Blagojevic, were they the ones who attacked, or was the attack more

21     coordinated with other individuals?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Arkan's men and Mirko Blagojevic's

23     men launched that attack, so it was mixed forces.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So now you're saying that the

25     attack was carried out by Arkan's men and Mirko Blagojevic's, and you

Page 12739

 1     added it was mixed forces.  But in terms of unity --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried to say -- well, how shall I

 3     put this?  They were together, they were in groups together.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they acted together.  But

 5     who were the more numerous, Arkan's or Blagojevic's men?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Blagojevic's men were more

 7     numerous.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How many, approximately?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know to what extent, but I

10     know that we were weaker.  I couldn't really count, because we ran in all

11     directions, we were withdrawing.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but were there 50, 100,

13     200, 300 men?  Just tell us roughly.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.  I just know that

15     there were more of them, because -- because we were withdrawing.  I

16     couldn't do any counting.  I repeat once again, there were more of them

17     than of Arkan's men, because I recognised Arkan's men by their uniforms;

18     and I recognised Mirko Blagojevic's men because they wore jeans, normal

19     clothing, things like that.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, you already told us that you had to flee.  Can you

23     tell us in which direction you fled, and what did you do later?

24        A.   Well, we all fled.  I mean, we were all over the place.

25     Everybody fled in different directions.  I was fleeing in this direction

Page 12740

 1     of my house.  I was near the cemetery.  That's where I stopped, and other

 2     people went in other directions.  That is to say, when they attacked

 3     front the direction of town.  We were not strong enough in order to be

 4     able to repel their attack.  We were protecting our lives, so we had to

 5     withdraw.

 6        Q.   When you were at the cemetery, did you observe a specific event,

 7     and can you tell us what?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  I saw Arkan's men kill the Sabanovic family, and their

 9     son -- well, I didn't see the son because I couldn't see everything

10     because of the mosque that was in the yard.  They killed an Albanian too

11     then, a brother that I knew, and a woman; and I don't know who that woman

12     was.  I cannot say what her name and surname were.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could I please have the photo

14     which bears 65 ter number 1038 on the monitor.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, is this the situation you observed or is it a

16     different event?

17        A.   This is a different event.  On the same spot, an Albanian was

18     killed, the older brother from among the three brothers, actually, who

19     had this "borik" [phoen] shop at the Sabanovic house.

20        Q.   In the beginning, you said that you observed the killing of the

21     butcher.  Who is this person lying on the ground?

22        A.   The person is an Albanian.  I said in the beginning that I saw

23     two persons being killed; Sabanovic, Redzep, and his wife.

24        Q.   This is not Sabanovic?

25        A.   It's not Sabanovic.

Page 12741

 1        Q.   Who is this?  Can you tell me?

 2        A.   I don't know his name.  I just know he's an Albanian, because he

 3     had this "borik" shop there for 15 years.  I knew him since I was a

 4     child.

 5        Q.   Wasn't Sabanovic an Albanian?

 6        A.   Redzep Sabanovic, I think that he was originally Albanian, but

 7     he's in a different picture; he and his wife, that is.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could we please have the picture

 9     65 ter 1037 on the monitor.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you please describe what we see here and if this

11     is the situation you observed?

12        A.   Yes.  This is Redzep Sabanovic's wife and Redzep.

13        Q.   Who is Redzep Sabanovic's wife, who of these killed persons?

14        A.   The soldier's kicking her.

15        Q.   Can you tell us which unit -- to which unit these soldiers

16     belonged to?

17        A.   These soldiers belonged to Arkan's unit.

18        Q.   And this is the situation you observed?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Can we please see again the first picture,

21     Mr. Registrar.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, what I would like to know from you, if this is

23     more -- isn't this the same situation, only some seconds before?  But,

24     please, you must be certain about this.  What we see on the right hand --

25     on the right picture, is this different from what we see on the left?

Page 12742

 1        A.   This photograph, where the Albanian was killed, was taken before

 2     the other one was, where Redzep's wife is, because the wife -- or,

 3     rather, this woman was killed later.  This same woman was killed.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to move both photos

 5     into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the photograph on the

 7     left is well known.  The whole world has already seen this picture.  But

 8     on the right-hand side, the lady that is looking after -- caring after

 9     this Albanian person, is it the same person as the one we see lying next

10     to the person that is being kicked on the left picture, on the left-hand

11     side picture?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That lady that is holding the

13     Albanian is standing -- is, rather, by the wall.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We see her killed, dead, lying

15     on the sidewalk with the two others?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How far were you from this?

18     Can you tell us the distance in metres?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think approximately about 200

20     metres.  I cannot show it now, because the picture's not there, the

21     sketch.  One street goes in one direction, the other one goes in another

22     direction, so I cannot show you where it was that I was.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were 200 metres away.  You

24     heard the shots?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did hear the shots.

Page 12743

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These individuals that we see

 2     standing, three of them, there's three, one of them is kicking the person

 3     lying down and has glasses, the two others have black caps.  You say they

 4     are Arkan's men.  We see there are three of them, and there are two that

 5     are actually looking in another direction and checking what's happening.

 6             When they shot these people down, did they shoot them point

 7     blank, without saying anything?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say whether they had said

 9     anything.  I just know that they brought them there, to this wall, and

10     killed them there.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You were 200 metres away.  You

12     were hidden; I guess no one knew that you were there, looking at

13     everything?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could see.  Yes, I was hiding,

15     but I could see.  Well, we don't have a sketch here so that I could show

16     where it was that I was and from where I could see this.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, the person taking the

18     photographs, was it one of Arkan's men, because the person taking the

19     photograph is at the very heart of the action.  Was he one of Arkan's men

20     or was it just a photographer?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person was not one of Arkan's

22     men, that's for sure.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A civilian?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have been a civilian, a

25     reporter.

Page 12744

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A photojournalist.  Okay.

 2             Judge Lattanzi has a question, but do we have numbers for these

 3     pictures?  The Prosecutor has asked for these photographs to be tendered.

 4     Do we have a number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  65 ter number 1038 will be

 6     given Exhibit number P683.  65 ter number 1037 shall be given Exhibit

 7     number P684.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, I did not really

 9     understand how much time went on between these two events, because we

10     have two photographs and tow events that occurred one after the other.

11     Could you tell us how long it took from one event to the other?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that much time between these

13     two photographs, because the first victim was this one [indicates], the

14     Albanian here.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Maybe I have not really

16     understood.  I understood that the person we see in the center of the

17     photographs where we have three people lying down, I thought I understood

18     that the person in the middle is the woman standing above the Albanian in

19     the other picture.  Is this -- did I understand correctly or did I

20     misunderstand?  Is it the same person, yes or no?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not understand it

22     correctly.  I've repeated this twice already.  The woman that is holding

23     the Albanian is by the wall.  The other woman that is being kicked by the

24     soldier is Redzep Sabanovic's wife.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] It's another woman.  Okay, thank

Page 12745

 1     you very much.  I've understood correctly now.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you didn't understand me.  I'm

 3     saying that the woman that is holding the Albanian was killed, but she's

 4     by the wall.  The woman that is being kicked by the soldier is

 5     Redzep Sabanovic's wife.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You confirm that

 7     the woman we see alive on one picture is dead on the other picture.

 8     That's what I understand, but I don't believe that my fellow Judge

 9     understands the same thing.

10             So let's be very clear about this.  The woman that we see

11     standing, standing over the Albanian man, is it the same woman that we

12     see dead, lying next to Mrs. Sabanovic, who is being kicked?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying, "Yes."  I would

15     like to know whether my fellow Judge understood that the person standing

16     above the Albanian man is the one that we see dead just a few minutes

17     later lying on the ground, because she has the same vest, we see the same

18     skirt, blue skirt, and there's the jumper also that's blue.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I've understood correctly.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time for our 20-minute

22     break.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 10.30 a.m.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

Page 12746

 1             Mr. Mussemeyer, you have 20 minutes left.  We're running a bit

 2     late, so please be very careful when it comes to the time you have left.

 3     Twenty minutes.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. President, for that information.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, you already spoke about the killing of the butcher's

 6     son.  Can you please describe us again in a bit more details what you

 7     saw?

 8        A.   I saw that the butcher's son - his name was Ado - was running

 9     around the mosque, and I just heard a shot and I couldn't see him after

10     that.  I never saw him again.  I heard that he had been killed and that

11     he was buried together with his parents, in the same grave.

12        Q.   Do you know if the Sabanovic family was the only family which got

13     killed during the takeover?

14        A.   No.  During the attack from the town towards where we were, they

15     killed a family in Hamzica Sokak.  That's what I heard from a man who

16     told us they'd killed a family there, and that we had to withdraw because

17     they were attacking from the part of the town towards us.

18        Q.   You did not observe this killing of that family you mentioned?

19        A.   No, I didn't see it.

20        Q.   Do you know which -- to which units the soldiers who did the

21     killing belonged to?

22        A.   I don't know, I don't know that.

23        Q.   When you observed the killing of the butcher's family, you did

24     not stay there all the time.  When did you leave and where did you go?

25        A.   At the time, I set out towards my house, in the direction of my

Page 12747

 1     house.  I was running through the graveyard.  I heard shots.  I heard the

 2     bullets hit the monuments, the tombstones.  And then I went home, and at

 3     that time Arkan and Seselj's units and Mirko Blagojevic's units stopped

 4     by the mosque.  They didn't enter my part, the part where we lived, and

 5     it was called Tombak Mahala.  They had already stopped and didn't enter

 6     until the next day.

 7             And over the radio, I heard Coso Nargalic, who was asking us to

 8     hand over our weapons, those of us who had weapons, to hand them over,

 9     and nothing would happen to us and that we were free to go, that nobody

10     would kill us anymore, beat us up or anything like that, and that we

11     should surrender our weapons.  He pleaded with us to do that, and that's

12     what we did.

13        Q.   Can you please specify who is "we"?

14        A.   Those of us manning the barricades, the young guys who were at

15     the barricades at the time, those of us who were there.

16        Q.   When you went to your family house, were your family members

17     still there?

18        A.   No, no, they weren't there.  They had left in the direction of

19     the garrison.  It was called training site, Golo Brdo, Poligon.  The

20     garrison was called Golo Brdo.  And they went there to seek refuge with

21     the JNA, as if they were going to protect them from Arkan's and Seselj's

22     men.

23        Q.   Were you hiding in your house?

24        A.   Yes, I was hiding in the attic.  It's called an attic.  How shall

25     I explain it?

Page 12748

 1        Q.   When did you leave your house?

 2        A.   I left my house when my family arrived.  Upon returning from

 3     Golo Brdo, my mother told me that my friend, Maida, had been taken out

 4     and that I had to leave the house because they would search for me, too,

 5     come looking for me and kill me.  And that's when I left my house, and I

 6     never returned.

 7             And while -- the next day, when I was leaving my house, I passed

 8     through my road.  I saw a white Golf car without a license plate driving

 9     in the direction of my house.  I didn't turn back, nor did I return to my

10     house.  I went to live with my sister in the center of town, and that's

11     where I hid.  I was in hiding there for a day, so they didn't know where

12     my sister was.  And later on, I went to other people's houses and was in

13     hiding until mid-April.

14             Later on, when I'd already left to a third country - it's not

15     important where I went - anyway, to a third country, I found my brother

16     there, who told me he had been beaten up by Arkan's and Seselj's men, and

17     that they were looking for me.  They said that unless he came up with me,

18     unless he told them where I was, that they'd kill him and my whole

19     family.  And so he had to flee to a third country, too.  He had to pay

20     for crossing the border, I don't know how he managed to do that, and

21     escaped to a third country.

22             They beat him up.  He lost all his teeth.  They did all sorts of

23     things to him.

24        Q.   I would like to come back when you went to your house.

25             You told us that your family members already left, and some

Page 12749

 1     seconds later you told us you met your mother.  Can you please tell us

 2     where you met your mother?

 3        A.   The next day, when everything became calm again and when we heard

 4     from Nargalic that we had to hand in our weapons, our people came back

 5     from Golo Brdo; and my mother at that point in time told me that they had

 6     taken Maida out, that is to say, a friend of mine, and that I ought to

 7     leave Bijeljina; I ought to leave town, because Maid was also at the

 8     barricades with us that same day.

 9             So of the soldiers who came and said they were bringing peace,

10     and tried to enter the hospital - there was a hospital there at the

11     time - they said that nothing would happen, that all they wanted was to

12     get inside the hospital.  Well, that soldier, whether he was a policeman

13     who came with Osman before that to try and convince us to hand in our

14     weapons and not to take any action, quite possibly he might have been

15     there.  My mother said that he had a black hat on his head and all you

16     could see was his eyes.  And so they all issued orders and told all the

17     men to line up in Golo Brdo, to line up, and that that soldier, whether

18     he was a policeman I don't know -- anyway, wearing a cap, he had come in

19     a jeep and he got out, and he looked everyone in the face and watched

20     everyone.  And then they took Maid, Maid out, and he was found killed the

21     next day in Sabanovic's cellar.

22        Q.   Please explain you think they sorted Maid out of the line.

23        A.   Well, I think they took him out of the line because he had been

24     at the barricades and because he had an automatic rifle on him.  Well,

25     because he was a Muslim, because of that, because he was with us up at

Page 12750

 1     the barricades.  And that's what would have happened to me, too, when

 2     I -- had I gone to Golo Brdo the next day to take refuge with the

 3     soldiers in the Yugoslav People's Army, as it was called then.

 4        Q.   Do you know if Maid at the barricades disarmed someone from the

 5     Serb forces?

 6        A.   I don't think he disarmed anyone.  I think he took the rifle from

 7     this policeman.  His name was Rajo, I think.  I don't know what his

 8     surname was.

 9        Q.   So when you took off his rifle, he disarmed him?

10        A.   Yes, I think that was him.  I'm not 100 per cent certain, but

11     I think it was him, because later on the rifle was given back to the

12     policeman.

13        Q.   You already told us that when you left your house, you saw a

14     white Golf coming.  Can you tell us, who was sitting in this Golf?

15        A.   I wasn't able to see who was there.  I think it was soldiers

16     wearing uniforms with black caps on their heads, and they were going at

17     great speed.  They were in a hurry to get to my house and find me there,

18     because all the members -- anybody who had been at the barricades of the

19     SDA, they were looking for them.  When they found them, they beat them up

20     and that kind of thing.

21        Q.   When you left Bijeljina at the end, which direction did you go

22     and what did happen at a specific city which you had to pass?

23        A.   While I was hiding, while I was in hiding with my friends, I

24     wanted to go to Brcko because nothing was going on in Brcko at the time,

25     or it wasn't as bad.  And I went to the bus station with a colleague of

Page 12751

 1     mine to buy a ticket, and at the bus station I happened to see

 2     Branislav Filipovic, nicknamed Sumar, whom I've known since childhood,

 3     and he was buying a ticket for Belgrade.  I remember that very well.  And

 4     he was looking at the two of us.  I turned my head so that he wouldn't

 5     recognise me, so I turned my head to avoid a direct face-to-face clash

 6     with him.  And I bought a ticket that day, and in Brezevo Polje, I heard

 7     that the check-points of Brezevo Polje, the control-points there, were

 8     manned by the Serbs, and that they searched all the buses.  And if

 9     anybody was a suspect or was on the SDA list, they would be taken off the

10     buses.

11             I was very lucky at that time, because the soldier who stopped

12     the bus didn't search anyone.  I didn't dare look at him, because he

13     might have recognised me.  So you had to give your ID card and all your

14     documents if you wanted to cross over into Brcko, but I was very lucky

15     and I managed to reach Brcko.

16             Afterwards, after Brcko, I crossed over into Croatia.  And when I

17     crossed to Gunja, I heard that after that crossing of mine, that the

18     bridge had been destroyed from Brcko and Gunja.  So then I went off to a

19     third country.  "Gunja," GU-N-J-A.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, I would like to have the document

21     65 ter number 1052 on the monitor, and have it on page 8 of the B/C/S

22     version and page 11 on the English version.

23             This is an excerpt published by Mr. Seselj in the book

24     "Milan Panic Mora Pasti."  That means "Milan Panic Must Fall."  It's also

25     from one of the books -- the 75 books which Mr. Seselj gave to the

Page 12752

 1     Prosecution on the 29th of October, 2003.  And I want the witness to read

 2     the two paragraphs from this which starts from the 9th of April.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  I have to correct the

 4     Prosecutor, because this has happened several times.  The wrong figures

 5     were quoted.  Exactly 80 books is the number I handed over to the

 6     Prosecutor at the end of 2003, exactly 80.  So he can't say "75" if it

 7     was 80 books.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Seselj, we checked, and we found only 74

 9     books.  I always had the impression it was 80.  Then we counted again and

10     we could only find 74.  That is the reason why I'm always referring to

11     74.

12             Mr. Registrar, could we please have it.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say, in advance, that in

14     the courtroom I handed over 80 books to a representative of the OTP.  He

15     counted the books.  Now, where the books disappeared to, I don't know.

16     I'm not interested in that.  And I think it was in this particular

17     courtroom I handed the books over.  I was sitting in the last row, and an

18     OTP representative came up to me and took over the books.  The security

19     guard was carrying the books for me from the entrance to the Tribunal up

20     to the courtroom.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry for the correction, but it was in

22     Courtroom II, and I was, myself, in the courtroom.  But I don't want to

23     be a witness here.

24             Is there any problem?

25             Just to save time, can the witness be provided with a hard copy

Page 12753

 1     to read from this?  Is it possible?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, do.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 4        Q.   Please, Mr. Witness, go to page 8, where it starts with the 9th

 5     of April.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, please.  Yes,

 7     please, the ELMO.

 8             But this is a text in English.  I don't think the witness speaks

 9     English.  It might be necessary for him to see the B/C/S text on the

10     overhead projector.

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  We have the B/C/S text, if it could be given.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment.  Now it's good, we

13     have it on the screen.  Fine.

14             Look at the screen, please, Witness.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, could you please go to 65 ter

16     number 03 -- to the ERN number 0346, and then 3835.  It's eight pages

17     later.

18             Thank you.  This is the page I mean.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, please read, slowly for the interpreters, also

20     that we can all understand, what is written there.  Please read the first

21     two paragraphs.

22        A.   "The 9th of April, 1992.

23             "Seselj:  The Serbian Radical Party welcomes the independent

24     state of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and will do everything in its

25     power to contribute to its internal stabilisation, the administrative,

Page 12754

 1     political and economic build-up or construction, and, above all, to its

 2     defence from the Ustashas and pan-Islamist hoards.  The Serbian Radical

 3     Party believes that the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina are

 4     masters of their own fate and that the recognition of the independence of

 5     the Islamic Jamahirija in Bosnia and Herzegovina by the European

 6     Community does not concern the Serbian people.  The European Community

 7     can recognise the independence and sovereignty only to the territories

 8     where Croats and Muslims live in the majority, and we are not interested

 9     in those territories.

10             "The Serbian Radical Party hails the fight of the Serbian people

11     for freedom and democracy.  This time again we demand from the Yugoslav

12     Army leadership that they discontinue the policy of waiting, the policy

13     of non-interference.  In accordance with the exclusive desire expressed

14     by the Serbian people, we are calling on the leadership so that the army

15     remains in their territory and that it operates as the army of Serbian

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is the only one to decide to remain within

17     Yugoslavia.  The army has no longer a legal basis to consider itself

18     either the Muslim or Croatian Army.

19             "We demand that the army leadership immediately, until the final

20     division, take control over Sarajevo, and not to allow Islamic and

21     Ustasha groups to wander around the capital of what was Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina until yesterday.  I think that Sarajevo should be divided

23     into a Serbian and Muslim part."

24        Q.   Thank you for this paragraph.  Could you please read the other

25     one, the next one, which is much shorter?

Page 12755

 1        A.   "The Serbian Radical Party will render all kinds of assistance to

 2     the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it has done hitherto.

 3     Today's press conference is attended by the president of the Regional

 4     Board of the Serbian Radical Party for Northeastern Bosnia, and the

 5     president of the Serbian Chetnik Movement over there and the commander of

 6     the Serbian volunteers, Mirko Blagojevic.  The commander of the Serbian

 7     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party and the Serbian Chetnik ..."

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  This has been read out

10     so badly that I think that the Prosecutor should have brought in somebody

11     who knows the Serbian language and for it to be read out fluently,

12     because what's the purpose of having a semi-literate read out the text

13     who's never seen the text in his life before?  And the witness can

14     express his opinion about what was read out, but this way the text has

15     been distorted.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Notwithstanding what was just

17     said, what is your question, Prosecutor, because two paragraphs have just

18     been read out.  What is the question you want to put now?

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think before I come to the questions, I want

20     to mention that here is no place to offend the witness.  The accused is

21     not entitled to offend the witness, which he did some seconds ago.

22        Q.   My question is:  What was the majority of the population in

23     Bijeljina?  Can you please let us know?  Was it a Serb majority there?

24        A.   No, the Muslims were the majority in Bijeljina.

25        Q.   And in the second paragraph is mentioned the decisive role which

Page 12756

 1     Mirko Blagojevic had in the takeover of Bijeljina.  Can you confirm that

 2     he had a decisive role there?

 3        A.   Yes, he did play a decisive role there.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I would like to move this

 5     document into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

 7     number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be given

 9     Exhibit number P685.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             Mr. Mussemeyer, your time is up.  Maybe time for one last

12     question, but you've used the hour that had been granted to you.

13             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I only have one last

14     question.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, if you think back what you overheard in the

16     conversation between Mr. Seselj and Mr. Blagojevic in the Cafe Srbija at

17     the beginning of March, and what happened later, do you see any

18     connection?

19        A.   Yes, of course you can see a connection, that what they were

20     talking about in Cafe Srbija came to pass.  The area was cleansed of

21     non-Serbs, Muslims and Croats, which means that's it.  That's what was

22     discussed and said in the Cafe Srbija.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

24             Mr. President, this was my last question.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, unless my fellow

Page 12757

 1     Judge has a question.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, the Trial

 4     Chamber, and we're reminded of it by Judge Harhoff, says this:  There

 5     were two statements, one given in 2007, but there was a former one in

 6     2004, and they're basically the same.  Why was there, in 2007, the same

 7     statement as the one given in 2004?

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  It was the intention of the Prosecution to get a

 9     new 92 ter statement at that time.  It was before Your Honours rendered

10     the decision from the 7th of January, 2008, so it's not in the format

11     which you requested in that decision because it was done before.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Mr. Seselj, you may proceed.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. VS-1028, a few times the Prosecutor asked

16     you about the ethnic structure of the municipality of Bijeljina before

17     the war, and you keep insisting on the Muslim population being a majority

18     there?

19        A.   That's right, the municipality, the town of Bijeljina.

20        Q.   All right.  According to the last census in 1991, that was the

21     last census that was organised, Bijeljina had a population of 96 .796

22     inhabitants.  Serbs accounted for 57.551, which means that Serbs were

23     59.4 per cent.  Muslims were 30.314, which is to say 31.3 per cent.

24     Croats, only 517, which means .5 per cent.  Yugoslavs, 4.256,

25     4.4 per cent; and the rest, others, 4.168, which is to say 4.4 per cent.

Page 12758

 1     These are officials figure of the 1991 census, and you see that what you

 2     have been stating is not true; namely, that Muslims were a majority in

 3     the Bijeljina municipality.

 4        A.   You don't want to understand me or you cannot understand me?

 5     You're speaking Serbian, I'm speaking Bosnian.  I'm saying that the town

 6     of Bijeljina.  I'm not talking about the municipality.  I'm talking about

 7     the town.  Cadzavica, Crnaljevo, there are a lot of villages in the

 8     municipality of Bijeljina.  I was talking about the town of Bijeljina.

 9     Please, if you don't understand my language, what language should I speak

10     to you?

11        Q.   You kept saying "municipality" and "municipality," that's in the

12     transcript.

13        A.   The town of Bijeljina, the town of Bijeljina.  I lived in the

14     town, sir.

15        Q.   Well, it's not a municipality that takes up half of Siberia.  It

16     is an average municipality.

17        A.   It is a municipality that includes Crnaljevo, Cadzavica, Bijelo

18     Polje.  The Serbian majority of villages, that is.

19        Q.   Please wait for my question.  After the fighting for Bijeljina,

20     in which the Serb forces won over the Muslim forces, defeated them, you

21     went to a third country.  I'm supposed to keep that secret.  Right?

22        A.   Of course.

23        Q.   All right.  And you have been staying in that third country since

24     1992 to the present day; right?  To this day, you live in this third

25     country?

Page 12759

 1        A.   I live in this third country, but I was in the same one all the

 2     time.

 3        Q.   So there were two third countries.  So there was a third country

 4     and a fourth country, actually?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Until what country was the third country and from what year did

 7     the fourth country start?

 8        A.   Up until 1995, it was the third country, and since 1995, it's

 9     been the fourth country.

10        Q.   Oh, so you still live in the fourth country?

11        A.   But of course.

12        Q.   Up until 2008, that is to say, for 13 years, you have been

13     struggling to get a residency permit in that country; right?

14        A.   I got a residency permit in that country before -- without

15     The Hague Tribunal.  Do you want me to tell you why?  Because my mother

16     still lived in Bijeljina.  That's why.  I did not make any statements to

17     them.

18        Q.   Wait a bit to hear my question.  When was it that you got this

19     residency permit for staying in that third country?

20        A.   In 2007.

21        Q.   In 2007?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So for 12 years, you struggled before the state authorities of

24     that fourth country to get a residency permit, and finally, in 2007, you

25     got it; is that right?

Page 12760

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   Right.  So that's what I'm interested in.  And I see here I have

 3     some documentation about that, how many times you were refused.  I have

 4     the reasons why you were refused.  And you kept insisting -- and you even

 5     got married there.  Your wife had a residency permit, and then you tried

 6     to take advantage of that as an argument, and yet again they refused you;

 7     right?  They refused you several times?

 8        A.   No.  I did get a residency permit.  I'm a married man, and I've

 9     been living with this woman since 1997, sir.

10        Q.   Please, you got a residency permit in 2007.  That's what you just

11     said yourself?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Up until 2007, you were struggling to get that residency permit?

14        A.   No, I wasn't struggling, because in the third country, when I was

15     there, I got a residency permit.  So it's not the residency or the permit

16     that matter.  It doesn't matter where I am.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I hope you have also

18     received this document that I have.  It's 10 pages' long, 10 pages.  We

19     see the struggle of this witness to get a residency permit in this fourth

20     country.  So if you've already received this, perhaps I shouldn't dwell

21     on it any longer.  I hope that the OTP provided you with this, just like

22     they provided me with this document.  Could you please tell me whether

23     you indeed have this or not?

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I don't have it.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I insist.  I insist that the

Page 12761

 1     Prosecution provide you with this document immediately so that you could

 2     follow what it is that I'm talking about.  I think that that is

 3     indispensable for you, because this is of particular importance in terms

 4     of establishing the credibility of this witness.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Seselj, it is you,

 6     because it is Defence that should present this document.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I got this from the

 8     OTP yesterday, yesterday or was it Friday night?  I think it was

 9     yesterday.  No, Friday night.  Yes, all right, Friday night, after 1800

10     hours.  That's what the OTP provided to me.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have to explain this.

13             I had in mind this document.  I had seen it some years ago.  It

14     did not pop up with our normal searches, but I was aware that it exists,

15     so I -- it cost me a lot of time to find it.  I found it.  It was in a

16     different language.  It had to be translated into English, and from

17     English into B/C/S.  That needed time, and that's the reason why we

18     disclosed it so late.  And the disclosure was on Friday evening.  This is

19     as far as I remember.  We have it now in English and in B/C/S.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we trust you.

21     There is a document that states that the witness -- it took years for the

22     witness to get a final residence permit.  But apart from that, what are

23     you hinting at?  Please get to the question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am going to put my question, but

25     I think that you have to have the document in front of you in order to be

Page 12762

 1     able to follow this, because I have to keep this secret, what the country

 2     is, and there's some other information that I have to keep secret.  And I

 3     imagine that the Prosecution is in a position to provide you with copies

 4     straight away.  If you think that this is not necessary, I'll just move

 5     on.

 6        Q.   Mr. VS-1028, since eight years -- no, nine years -- for nine

 7     years, you had a problem with your residency permit, and since we see

 8     here how many times they refused you, and higher instances also discarded

 9     your appeals, you complained to different administrative organs,

10     different courts, and this is explained in 10 pages.

11             In 2007, you had this idea to get in touch with The Hague

12     Tribunal and to offer to be a false witness in the proceedings against

13     me; and from The Hague Tribunal you asked, in return, to be helped by

14     them --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I believe

16     Mr. Mussemeyer is raising to his feet exactly for that.  I mean, don't

17     talk about false witnesses.  Please try to first highlight that he

18     took -- he decided to initiate the contact with The Hague to offer his

19     testimony and so forth and so on.

20             So Mr. Mussemeyer, please.

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Seselj is referring to 2007.  How, then, is

22     it possible that we already have a statement from the witness of 2004?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, 2004.

24             Mr. Seselj.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know what kind of

Page 12763

 1     translation was received.  I said "2004."  At least that's what I seem to

 2     recall that I said, "2004."  I'm looking for it now, but it's

 3     disappeared, it's disappeared from the transcript.  I don't know how a

 4     person can return this transcript.  I don't know whether it's possible at

 5     all.  I said that in 2004, the witness turned to the OTP in The Hague.

 6        Q.   Is that true?

 7        A.   What year?

 8        Q.   What year?

 9        A.   I'm not sure.  2003 or 2004.

10        Q.   How did you do that?  Did you send a letter?

11        A.   Why are you asking me that?  You mean why I turned to them in

12     2003 or 2004?  Do I have to say why?

13        Q.   You're not here to quarrel with me.  You're just here to answer

14     my questions.  I'm not asking you why it was that you turned to them but

15     how you turned to them.  Was it by telephone, letter, or what?  Answer

16     that, please.

17        A.   By telephone.

18        Q.   You called The Hague by phone?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The Hague OTP, I assume.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you said that you wanted to be a witness in the proceedings

23     against me?

24        A.   Of course, because I had arguments.  That's what I said.

25        Q.   Did you say straight away then that you were in this foreign

Page 12764

 1     country and that you had problems with your residency permit in that

 2     country?

 3        A.   I didn't say that straight away.  I said that -- I said that I

 4     wanted to testify against you because I had arguments against you,

 5     against your political party, the one that you were in charge of.

 6        Q.   I assume that you understand that I'm not interested in your

 7     arguments against me.  Just give me answers to the questions I'm putting.

 8     You said during the direct examination what your arguments against me

 9     were.  I'm not interested in that any longer.  Now just answer my

10     questions.

11             When you first phoned them, how did they react from The Hague

12     OTP?

13        A.   Of course, they accepted that I should be a witness, and of

14     course they came to examine me in that country where I was staying.

15        Q.   When they came to examine you, did you say that you had problems

16     with your residency permit in that country?

17        A.   I didn't say that.  I said that I wanted to be a witness.

18        Q.   When did you tell them that you had problems in that country,

19     problems with the residency permit in that country?

20        A.   I said that I had problems when they already wanted to return me

21     from that country, because I could not return, because it was dangerous

22     for me to return to my country.  They kept trying to send me back to my

23     country.  Why would I go back when it was dangerous?  I couldn't go

24     anywhere, so I wanted to stay in that country in order to protect myself.

25        Q.   I'm really not interested in that.

Page 12765

 1        A.   Why are you not interested in that?

 2        Q.   I'm not going to explain this to you why you're not interested in

 3     this.  Just answer my questions.

 4        A.   You just want me to give you brief answers in just the things

 5     that you're interested in.

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   Why don't you --

 8        Q.   I don't want to quarrel and squabble with you here and explain

 9     things to you.

10        A.   You're not interested in details, and I don't want to give

11     answers then.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I insist that you make the

13     witness answer my questions.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, this is quite a

15     specific procedure.  In your country or my country, things would not

16     happen this way, because in my country, Judges ask questions; and I

17     believe that the questioning is courteous in our countries.  But here the

18     Prosecution asked questions, and then the Defence asks questions.

19             And the Defence is asking questions from their own point of view.

20     And Mr. Seselj, with his question, is trying to demonstrate that your

21     testimony, your 2004 testimony, had a hidden agenda behind it, and in

22     order to establish this, he has to put a number of questions to you.  It

23     might be very unpleasant, but please answer the questions that are put to

24     you.

25             Please continue, Mr. Seselj, and slow down, please slow down.

Page 12766

 1     You're talking much too fast, and the interpreters are raising the white

 2     flag.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   When did you complain to the OTP in The Hague that you had

 5     problems with your residency permit in that country?

 6        A.   I complained -- no, I didn't complain.  I said that I had

 7     problems, that "abschiebung" [phoen] --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, the witness lapses into

 9     German.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  -- so I didn't know where I could

11     be a witness, I couldn't tell them where they could find me, so then it

12     would be important for me to be there for as long as the court

13     proceedings were on.  And the trial has been on until 2008, so from 2004

14     until 2007.  I wouldn't come 2008 if I had some kind of interest between

15     those two other dates, because I already have a residency permit in that

16     country.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   All right.  How many days elapsed between your conversation with

19     The Hague investigators and the signing of your statement in that

20     country, up until the moment when you turned to The Hague OTP and when

21     you said that you had problems with your residency permit?

22        A.   I don't understand your question.

23        Q.   You had this conversation, this interview with The Hague OTP in

24     that country; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12767

 1        Q.   And the result of that conversation was the statement that they

 2     wrote up and that you signed; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you say to them straight away then that you had problems with

 5     your residency permit?

 6        A.   I didn't.

 7        Q.   How many days elapsed from the signing of the statement up until

 8     the moment when you said that you had problems with your residency

 9     permit?

10        A.   I can't remember.

11        Q.   Roughly?

12        A.   I cannot say.  I don't remember.

13        Q.   All right.  What I have here is information to the effect that

14     you talked to The Hague investigators --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Given the

16     problem raised, Mr. Mussemeyer, the Trial Chamber would like to have this

17     document, this 10-page document relating to all the difficulties

18     encountered by the witness to obtain his residency permit, and the Trial

19     Chamber will then see whether this document should be admitted, "yes" or

20     "no," but we absolutely need it.  Could we please have it?

21             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I think we have one copy in the courtroom.  Just

22     one moment.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The case manager will send it to the court

25     officer so it can be printed.

Page 12768

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So according to the information I have, on the 24th and 25th of

 5     September, 2004, you had this interview conducted with the investigators

 6     the OTP; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   On the 14th of December, 2004, Patrick Lopez-Terres, the chief

 9     investigations of the OTP, addressed the authorities of the state in

10     which you wished to obtain a residency permit, and he says:

11             "Reference our letter from the 28th of September, 2004."

12             So if you talked to them on the 24th and the 25th of September,

13     already on the 28th of September they sent a letter to the state

14     authorities of the said country, intervening in your case.  I did not

15     receive that letter.  The OTP did not give me that letter.  They gave me

16     the letter of the 14th of December.  That means that immediately when

17     being interviewed by the Hague investigators, you said that you had a

18     problem with your residency permit; is that right?

19        A.   That's not right.

20        Q.   All right, if you want it that way, but the papers show something

21     different:

22             "And we wish to confirm that the above-mentioned person is a

23     witness in the case of the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.  The trial

24     will not start before 2006.  What is envisaged is that due to the

25     importance of the testimony involved, this person will be asked to

Page 12769

 1     testify in other proceedings before this Court.  Therefore, we would

 2     appreciate it if the relevant authorities would make an exception in the

 3     case of this person and the members of his family, in terms of

 4     repatriation to ..." and then the country's name is mentioned, "... for

 5     at least two years.  If you should require an answer, we can confirm it

 6     at any given point in time, whether we still count on this person."

 7             So they are asking for repatriation to be delayed for two years

 8     in your case; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Obviously, the result of that letter of theirs, you were not

11     expelled from that state.  And then in 2007, what a strange coincidence,

12     you sign a new statement for the OTP.  I don't have it now.  If the

13     secretary from the OTP would be kind enough to find that statement for

14     2007.  I assume that she can do that quickly and easily.

15             So in 2007, you get a permanent residency permit in that said

16     country, and you sign a new statement for the OTP?

17        A.   That's not right.

18             Your Honour, may I say something?  Before I signed this statement

19     in 2007, my wife -- my wife that I married -- the lady I married in 2004

20     was already working full time in that state, and then that state, this

21     town, asked for my wife to work for eight hours; that is to say, that we

22     would not depend on the state, so that I could get this residency.  So

23     what I signed in 2007, this statement, has nothing to do whatsoever with

24     my residency and -- well, on the basis of my wife, you can have this

25     confirmed by the state that I was in.  I got residency on the basis of

Page 12770

 1     the work of my wife and on the basis of my wife, in general.

 2             So 100 per cent, what Mr. Seselj is saying is a lie, that it's on

 3     account of some interests that I signed this in 2007, so that I could get

 4     a new residency permit.

 5             Thank you very much.

 6        Q.   Mr. VS-1028, do you have a passport on you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Would you show your passport to the Trial Chamber; not -- you can

 9     do this through the usher.  You don't have to get up, yourself, but just

10     so we can see when this residency permit dates from, as of what date it's

11     valid.

12        A.   Well, I don't have it with me.

13        Q.   You mean your passport?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   But when I asked you whether you have a passport on you, you

16     said, "Yes."

17        A.   I meant I don't have it in the courtroom, but in the room where

18     my wife is staying.

19        Q.   All right, fine.  Now you're saying that I'm lying.  Yes, quite

20     normally.  And the Prosecution -- or, rather, the Trial Chamber won't

21     allow me to say you're lying.

22        A.   I just want to say that there was no signature in 2007 in giving

23     my statement because of the residency, so that means your information is

24     not correct.  I received residency status on the basis of my wife being

25     employed, so that's it, Mr. Seselj.

Page 12771

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At any rate, that piece of

 2     information, Judges, would be important for us to see this coincidence

 3     between the signing of a new statement and the issuing of a residency

 4     permit.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, we don't know what

 6     country this passport comes from, but are you a Bosnia-Herzegovinian

 7     national?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this passport must have been

10     issued by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I assume that that's the

11     case.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was issued a passport in the

13     country in which I reside, in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Embassy there.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have a passport issued by

15     the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it is the embassy of the country

16     where you reside now that issued this passport.  But in your BiH

17     passport, your residency permit is not mentioned, because this has

18     nothing to do with it; right?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't.  You can check out,

20     in the country I'm living in and in the town, that in the papers of that

21     state, well, you can take my documents and see on what basis I was

22     granted residency.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now, you state here a completely wrong piece of information, that

Page 12772

 1     in mid-March 1992, as you say, 15 to 20 days before Bijeljina was taken,

 2     I was in Bijeljina myself, and you link that up with the following piece

 3     of information; that three or four months earlier on, and that's to be

 4     found in paragraph 18, that most probably at the end of 1991 I went to

 5     the same cafe with a certain Suada person.  And you say she was a Muslim

 6     and rumours had it that she was Seselj's lover; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I'm going to provide you with information as to when exactly

 9     I was in Bijeljina.  I was in Bijeljina on the 9th of December, 1990, on

10     the very day of the elections in Serbia, and I delivered lectures in the

11     Srbija Cafe.  They removed the tables.  Lots of people had gathered

12     there, and I had a lecture.

13             Did you attend that lecture, perhaps?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you hear about that lecture of mine at the end of 1990?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The second time I was in Bijeljina was on the 23rd -- or, rather,

18     sometime in February, possibly the 23rd, in 1991, immediately after the

19     Assembly in Kragujevac.  And we're talking about February 1991 now.

20             The third time, I just passed through Bijeljina at the beginning

21     of April 1991 on my way to Knin, and with me were Maja Gojkovic and

22     Aleksandar Stefanovic; and we were joined in Bijeljina by

23     Mirko Blagojevic, and we stayed there for just 20 minutes.  That's April

24     1991.

25             The next time that I was in Bijeljina, according to the official

Page 12773

 1     data of the Serbian Radical Party, only on the 21st of March, 1993, when

 2     a rally -- a party rally was held in front of the municipality building.

 3             So those are official data from the Radical Party about my stays

 4     and visits to Bijeljina.  Are they correct?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   You don't know?

 7        A.   No, I don't.

 8        Q.   Now, as far as the young lady you mentioned, she was my

 9     girlfriend until the end of the 1980s, and certainly people knew about

10     that in Bijeljina, because I would visit Bijeljina from time to time and

11     she would come to Belgrade from time to time.  Her name was not Suada.

12     I'm not going to tell you what her name was, because that's not

13     important.  She was not a nurse.  What she was was an employee, a clerk

14     in an enterprise; and I saw her for the last time on the 9th of December,

15     1990, precisely at the lecture I held in the Srbija Cafe.

16             And you heard some rumours about my having a girlfriend, and then

17     you wanted, in a way, to say that she was my mistress, lover.  She wasn't

18     a mistress or a lover.  She was my girlfriend.  You wanted to berate it

19     all.  I was going out with her publicly in Belgrade and in Bijeljina.

20     And then you mixed up the years.

21        A.   No, I didn't mix up the years.  You can say whatever you like,

22     where you were and what you did, but I'm certain I didn't mix up the

23     years.

24        Q.   Yes, you did, you mixed them up.

25        A.   No, I didn't mix the years up.  You can say whatever you like,

Page 12774

 1     give us whatever dates you like and write down whatever dates you like,

 2     but what I said is the truth.

 3        Q.   All right.  It's quite obvious you're telling the truth?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   Yes, I think everybody understands that, and it's clear to one

 6     and all, except to the Prosecutor.

 7             Then you went on to invent that for 15 to 20 days, I was in

 8     Bijeljina, and in the Srbija Cafe I sat up in the bar and said how all

 9     Muslims should be killed and expelled to Turkey?

10        A.   That is true.

11        Q.   You invented that.  You simply invented that so that in the eyes

12     of The Hague investigators, you should score a point and to have them

13     help you to gain a residence permit in Germany; right?

14        A.   No, that's not right.

15        Q.   Yes, it is.  Yes, it is.

16        A.   No, it's not.

17        Q.   All right, fine.  If you say it isn't, let's move on.

18             Now, here in this statement of yours, you present some other

19     incorrect information, from which we can see that in actual fact, you

20     don't know about the situation, you didn't know about the events in

21     Bijeljina.

22        A.   Yes, I do know about them, because I am a local, I was a local

23     child there from the town, and everything I said is true.

24        Q.   You spoke about fighting in Bijeljina.  You were a member of the

25     Patriotic League, weren't you?

Page 12775

 1        A.   No, I wasn't a member of the Patriotic League.  What I was was an

 2     ordinary citizen of Bijeljina.

 3        Q.   And you joined the Green Berets?

 4        A.   No, I never joined the Green Berets, never in my life.

 5        Q.   Well, did you have weapons during that fighting?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   And to what unit did you belong?

 8        A.   To no unit.  I was an ordinary citizen.  We were at the

 9     barricades, ordinary citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   At a point in time, you took over Bijeljina; is that right?

11        A.   No, it isn't.

12        Q.   Yes, that is right, and then the fighting in Bijeljina went on

13     for four days.

14        A.   That's not correct.

15        Q.   How long did the fighting go on for?

16        A.   The fighting did not go on for four days.  They were just in the

17     evening and the following days.  So on the third day, the next day, we

18     handed in our weapons, when Nargalic told us that we should hand over our

19     weapons.  So the fighting didn't go on.  The fighting just went on, on

20     the 31st in the evening and the 1st, up until the afternoon, and that was

21     the end of it.  So when I spent the night in my attic, it was the next

22     day that we handed over our weapons.  And then Arkan's men and your

23     forces entered my part of town, which is called Tombak Mahala, sir.

24        Q.   Now, listen to me.  I have in front of me Vahid Karavelic's book.

25     Have you heard of Vahid Karavelic?

Page 12776

 1        A.   He was the commander.

 2        Q.   Commander of what?

 3        A.   The commander of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I think.

 4        Q.   He wrote a book, "The Aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 5     Northeast Bosnia, 1991 to 1992," and in that book he describes of course

 6     from his own angle of vision all the events that took place in the entire

 7     Tuzla region.  And then he goes on to say the following, referring to

 8     Bijeljina:

 9             "The inhabitants of Northeastern Bosnia, through the

10     Patriotic League, the police and the Territorial Defence of the SR BiH,

11     and other defence forms of organisation, set up resistance to the

12     aggressor in Bijeljina during the four-day defence of Bijeljina."

13        A.   That's not correct, that's not true.  I was in Bijeljina at that

14     time, so I know the situation better than this man Vahid or whatever his

15     name is, the commander.  I know better than him.  He wasn't from

16     Bijeljina.

17             I'm a local of Bijeljina and a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

18     I was in Bijeljina at the time.  The war was going on from the 31st, in

19     the evening, up until the 1st, in the afternoon.  The next day, the

20     following day, the fighting stopped.  We handed over our weapons to the

21     SUP in Bijeljina, and the Muslims were not in the police force.  Most of

22     the people in the police and the Territorial Defence were Serbs,

23     Mr. Seselj.

24        Q.   You're telling me something I'm not asking you about.  Is

25     Vahid Karavelic a general, was he a general?  A general of the Muslim

Page 12777

 1     army?

 2        A.   Not the Muslim army, but the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  You're

 3     wrong there.

 4        Q.   I see.  Very well.  Now, let's see what he says after that.  He

 5     goes on to say, in addition to saying that the fighting for Bijeljina

 6     went on for four days, he goes on to say the following:

 7             "The Regional Staff of the Patriotic League of Tuzla at the time,

 8     as well as the Municipal Staff of the Patriotic League of Bijeljina were

 9     conscious of the overall political and military situation of Bijeljina

10     and the situation in the region further afield.  The greatest resistance

11     in defending Bijeljina was put up by the Patriotic League of Bijeljina."

12        A.   That's not true.

13        Q.   And in the footnote on page 236, he mentioned Alija Izetbegovic's

14     speech at the Congress of the SDA of the BH in Sarajevo on the 6th and

15     7th of September, 1997; and in that speech of his, Alija Izetbegovic

16     commends the Patriotic League and says that it put up the greatest

17     resistance in the defence of Bijeljina?

18        A.   That's not true and correct.  We weren't able to put up a

19     resistance in Bijeljina.

20        Q.   Well, here's what Alija Izetbegovic says.  He is commending you

21     and says that the resistance went on for four days.

22        A.   That's not true.  The resistance was not put up over four days.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, Vahid Karavelic, on page 236, says something

24     else which is quite important.  He says the speedy occupation of

25     Bijeljina was assisted by the psychological and propaganda activity of

Page 12778

 1     the aggressor and the antagonisms between the political and military wing

 2     of the Patriotic League of Bijeljina.

 3             Therefore, he's complaining and says that among your ranks, there

 4     was antagonism, antagonism within your ranks between the political and

 5     military wing.  Is that true?

 6        A.   No, it isn't.

 7        Q.   Did you have problems among your own ranks?

 8        A.   No, we were not in our ranks.  We were citizens, and we had

 9     rallied together.  We weren't a league of any kind.  We had no uniform.

10     We were normal civilians, civilians, Mr. Seselj.

11        Q.   I hope you're not angry with me for believing Vahid Karavelic

12     more than I believe you.

13        A.   Well, he cannot talk about things he didn't see, and I don't

14     think he was there at that time.

15        Q.   Let's see what he says further on.  He says:

16             "Although the political leadership expressly challenged the

17     military wing, putting up resistance to the aggression, the

18     Patriotic League of Bijeljina put up a four-day resistance, and it was

19     led by Muhidin Bilalic and Haset Tiric, with the remarks that the

20     Patriotic League of Bijeljina had a small numbers of members and modest

21     hunting rifles within its unit.

22             Now, did you know Muhidin Bilalic and Haset Tiric?

23        A.   Haset Tiric I know personally.

24        Q.   The two of them were commanders of the Muslim forces in

25     Bijeljina, weren't they?

Page 12779

 1        A.   They weren't the commanders of the Muslim forces in Bijeljina,

 2     because there were no Muslim forces in Bijeljina.  What there was was

 3     citizens, and I'm telling you again, they were the citizens of Bijeljina,

 4     citizens.  Can you understand the word "citizens of Bijeljina," normal

 5     people who were wearing jeans and normal clothing.  We never had any

 6     insignia or anything like that.  We were there, we happened to be there.

 7     What you did in Vukovar we wanted to prevent from happening where we

 8     were.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, who was in command of you there?

10        A.   Nobody.  We were there on a spontaneous basis.  There was no

11     commander.  We were there on a spontaneous basis.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're a bit fast.

13             Witness, the question is as follows.  We have been listening to

14     you.  You have explained that in Bijeljina, it was the citizens who set

15     up a defence, and you gave us details.  That's very good, but it so

16     happens that a book has been written by a general of the army in your

17     country, and he provided another version in that book, saying that behind

18     it all, there was the Patriotic League.  So there's a contradiction

19     between what was said in that book and what you say here, and we were

20     trying to unravel this.

21             Did the general overdo it when he related the events, possibly to

22     glorify the Patriotic League, or is it you failing to underline specific

23     factors, because technically speaking it is difficult to understand

24     that -- if there was a defence, there must have been a leader, there must

25     have been somebody leading the defence, or was everybody a leader?

Page 12780

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you this way.  I've

 2     repeated this several times.  We citizens gathered together.  That means

 3     it wasn't organised.  There wasn't a commander or anything like that.  It

 4     was the citizens of Bijeljina.  We gathered together.  And Karavelic,

 5     writing in this book of his, he wasn't in Bijeljina at all.  He could

 6     just have, well, written this down.  He could just write about -- how

 7     shall I explain myself, explain this?

 8             He could just write what he'd heard, "It is like this, this is

 9     what happened," but there wasn't a war going on in Bijeljina for four

10     days, not fighting for four days.

11             As I've already said, they lasted one evening.  At about 10.00,

12     they broke out, on the 31st of March, until the 1st in the afternoon,

13     thereabouts, and then that was all.  The fighting did not go on for four

14     days, nor was there any Patriotic League, nor did anybody have a uniform

15     or anything else.  It was just the citizens that gathered together.  So

16     that's what I'm saying.  I was there, and then I can tell you what

17     happened.  I can repeat this a hundred, a thousand times.  I was there on

18     that particular day.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] Witness, are you speaking about

21     the town of Bijeljina or about the municipality of Bijeljina?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the town, the

23     town of Bijeljina, the town.  I was in town, the town of Bijeljina.

24     Bijeljina is a big municipality as well, including several villages.

25     These villages were around Bijeljina, and most of them were Serb

Page 12781

 1     villages; not most of them, 90 per cent.  I was born there.  I lived

 2     there for 27 years up until the conflict broke out.  I know every stone

 3     in Bijeljina.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on a minute.  You see, the reason I'm asking

 5     is to try and sort out this apparent difference between what the ABiH

 6     General Karavelic might have to say and what you might have to say about

 7     the same incident, and I was trying to figure out if there might have

 8     been extended armed action going on outside of the town of Bijeljina.  If

 9     you say that the fight was only going on for one day in Bijeljina town,

10     then my question to you is:  Could it be possible that there were still

11     armed fighting going on outside the town of Bijeljina, but still within

12     the municipality of Bijeljina?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fighting could not take place

14     outside of Bijeljina.  It wasn't possible, because there were Serb

15     villages around Bijeljina.  So from Tuzla, no one could have come.  From

16     Brcko, no one could have come to help us.  So there wasn't fighting in

17     Brcko.  They couldn't even dream that -- well, they couldn't come, they

18     couldn't come, because around Bijeljina there are Serb villages.  The

19     only Muslim village was Pejocari [phoen], and it's far from Bijeljina.

20     You have to go through Ugljevik, which is a Serb village.

21             I mean, I would like to explain this, but I can't write a book

22     about what happened in Sarajevo when I was not a Sarajevan myself, or a

23     book about Zenica or whatever.  I was in Bijeljina there on that day, on

24     that date, 100 per cent.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

Page 12782

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   All right.  So the fighting took place only in the town Bijeljina

 3     itself?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The book of Vahid Karavelic is a scholarly work, not a book of

 6     memoirs.  He's writing about a segment of war from his own ideological

 7     and political positions, and he even mentions that they tried to help

 8     assistance from the outside to the Muslims in Bijeljina while the

 9     fighting went on.  And then he says:

10             "During the fighting for Bijeljina, the Patriotic Staff or the

11     Regional Defence of Tuzla took urgent measures to arm and prepare, in an

12     overall fashion, units in Northeastern Bosnia in order to send them to

13     help the defenders of Bijeljina."

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we do not have the text.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   "An urgent decision was made to set up three battalions; namely,

17     one in Gradacac, responsible person of Husein Huseinagic, commander of

18     the Patriotic League in Gradacac.  He's supposed to help the defenders of

19     Bijeljina through Brezevo Polje to Bijeljina, the 2nd Battalion in the

20     area of Zvornik; responsible person, Sakib Halilovic, commander of the

21     Staff of the Patriotic League from Zvornik.  He should be sent to help

22     the defenders of Bijeljina-Zvornik.  Janja-Bijeljina is the route they

23     should take.  And 3rd Battalion in the area of Zivinice, Said Nistovic

24     was responsible, the then-commander of the regional staff of the

25     Patriotic League of Tuzla, to be sent to assist the defenders of

Page 12783

 1     Bijeljina along the Zivinice-Ugljevik-Bijeljina route."

 2             As a participant in this conflict, as a defender, as

 3     Vahid Karavelic would put it, were you expecting assistance from the

 4     outside while the fighting went on?

 5        A.   How could we expect assistants when over -- when it is not

 6     possible to get there through 10 Serb villages?  We didn't have

 7     helicopters or planes, so nothing doing, as far as assistance was

 8     concerned.

 9             And, secondly, we couldn't go on fighting.  Why would we fight?

10     Well, I mean, we did fight, but how, why?  You had 10 villages.  Up to

11     Ugljevik, there are 10 villages.  Up to Gradacac, it's 10 Serbian

12     villages.  Zvornik, Pilica, you didn't even mention that.  Who is going

13     to come, from what side?  On the other side is the Drina River in Serbia.

14     From where can we get help?  He can write whatever he wants out there.

15             So we were left without any mercy.  We were at your mercy.  You

16     could kill all of us.  We were under a siege, like at the river of

17     Sutjeska.  If you know history, you should.  You were there.

18        Q.   Was I at Sutjeska?

19        A.   No, no, but you grew up there and you know what happened.

20        Q.   This is why Vahid Karavelic explains why you did not get

21     assistance in a timely fashion.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we have not been provided

23     with text at all.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   "During the preparation of the units on the 2nd of April, 1992,

Page 12784

 1     the commander at Gradacac submits a report on readiness to move.

 2     However, that same night the units stopped for two reasons.  The first

 3     was the unit from Gradacac was slowed down by the leadership of Brcko.

 4     Then the mayor of Brcko said to the commander of the Tuzla

 5     Patriotic League Staff the following:  'I am not going to allow the unit

 6     to go through Brcko, because after that the JNA would bomb and level to

 7     the ground Brcko itself.  Let Bijeljina fend for itself.'  I talked to

 8     the president, Alija Izetbegovic, and he agreed with my positions."

 9             So this is one of the reasons why you did not get help from the

10     battalion in Gradacac.  The Muslim president of the municipality of Brcko

11     agreed with Alija Izetbegovic not to let that unit go through Brcko; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   No, that's not correct.  No assistance could come in, because

14     already in Brezevo Polje, there were Serb barricades and bunkers and lots

15     of weaponry.  There were lots of soldiers in Bre zevo Polje, so they

16     could not get there because of the JNA, was there, the volunteers, the

17     reservists.

18             So around Bijeljina, there were bunkers where the Yugoslav

19     People's Army, volunteers, that is to say, in the direction of Bijeljina

20     from Tuzla, Zvornik, in the direction of Brcko.  That is to say, the JNA

21     was there with large groups of soldiers.  I told you, we were under siege

22     and we could not get help.

23        Q.   Since this is a scholarly work written by Vahid Karavelic, so I'm

24     referring to page 237, in footnote number 355 he quotes three sources.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we do not have the text.

Page 12785

 1             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The first one is a statement of Alija Muminovic, given to the

 3     author himself.  The second source is the book of Sefko Hodzic, published

 4     in Sarajevo in 1993.  And the third source is the Master's paper of

 5     Izet Hadzic devoted to this topic, and the Master's degree was obtained

 6     at the Faculty of Political Science in Sarajevo in 2001.  He quotes these

 7     three sources, and are you saying that they are all inaccurate?

 8        A.   They are untrue.  I was in town.

 9        Q.   All right.  We are going to move on straight away.  You said what

10     you have to say, and we were going to move on.

11             He says the second reason for the lack of success was the delay

12     in the providing of weapons from Sarajevo; namely, the Main Staff of the

13     Patriotic League of Bosnia-Herzegovina promised for a long time that

14     ammunition and weapons would come in, in February and March.  And then

15     when the Regional Staff of the Patriotic League in Tuzla established

16     units to help Bijeljina, it was stated that on the 2nd of April, 1992,

17     weapons would arrive in Zivinice.  However, just like until then, on that

18     occasion, too, weapons did not arrive.  Only a few days later, the

19     Regional Staff of the Patriotic League of Tuzla -- and so on.  This

20     doesn't really matter for our purposes.  That was already late when you

21     lost the battle for Bijeljina.

22             He mentions as a second reason the delay in providing weapons,

23     and they couldn't arm these three battalions.  Do you find that strange,

24     what is written in his book?

25        A.   Of course I find it strange.

Page 12786

 1        Q.   All right.  Just another quotation from his book, page 241.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, we do not have the text.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   "After the telephone report of the commander of the

 5     Patriotic League of Bijeljina on the 4th of April, 1992, concerning the

 6     situation in Bijeljina, the units of the Patriotic League and part of the

 7     population of Bijeljina that wished to get out with permission of the

 8     commander of the Regional Staff of the Patriotic League of Tuzla, they

 9     started getting out in the direction of Brcko and Tuzla, and after that

10     Bijeljina was occupied."

11             So that is to say that you had enough strength to withdraw in the

12     direction of Brcko and Tuzla in an organised manner?

13        A.   That is not true.  I already told you, we, the young men who were

14     on the barricades, we left individually, just like I left and went to a

15     third country, so that's not true.  A young man was killed on the

16     barricades when he tried to pass through the Serb forces on foot.  Never

17     mind you killed him.  A bird could not fly over anywhere.

18        Q.   All right.  This is what he says here:

19             "After the occupation of Bijeljina, part of the units of the

20     Patriotic League, headed by Haset Tiric, was withdrawing through Teocak

21     and Tuzla in the area, in the direction of Zivinice, where the expelled

22     Regional Staff of the Patriotic Staff was at the time.

23             "Later on, they were renamed, whereas Muris Ibrahimovic and

24     another group managed to get to the area of Brcko."

25             On the base of this, it would seem that you were in this group

Page 12787

 1     led by Muris Ibrahimovic and managed to get to Brcko.

 2        A.   That's not true.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.

 4        A.   May I finish?

 5        Q.   Go ahead, finish.

 6        A.   I came on a bus.  My colleague and I went on a bus.  A colleague

 7     who was not in the barricades at all, a regular guy.  We passed through

 8     on a bus, and on that day in Brezevo Polje, there were no checks.  If

 9     there were checks, I wouldn't be here today, Mr. Seselj.

10        Q.   All right.  In footnote 365, he quotes several documents that are

11     in the archives of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the army of the

12     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is the official name of your army;

13     right?

14        A.   That was the army later, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that

15     time.

16        Q.   Well, we have what Vahid Karavelic says.  Now let us look at some

17     other matters.

18             Over here, you mentioned fighting in Bijeljina, and you said that

19     in Bijeljina, there was the JNA, the reservists, the volunteers of

20     Mirko Blagojevic, and Arkan's men, right; and you called

21     Mirko Blagojevic's volunteers "Seselj's men"?

22        A.   No, that was the Radical Party, and you're the president.

23        Q.   Yes, I am the president.

24        A.   And who does Mirko Blagojevic belong to?  He is yours; right?

25        Q.   Yes, he's my closest friend and party associate, the president of

Page 12788

 1     our party for Republika Srpska.

 2        A.   So am I lying?

 3        Q.   About that?  No, not at all.

 4        A.   I never lied anyway.  I'm from a family --

 5        Q.   But what you said about the killing of the Muslims, you invented

 6     all of that.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Witness and Mr. Seselj, you are overlapping.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   All right.  Do you know that among the volunteers that you call

10     "Seselj's men," and I'm proud of the fact that you're calling them

11     "Seselj's men," the volunteers led by Mirko Blagojevic, was there anyone

12     from Serbia among them?  Was there anyone who wasn't from Bijeljina?

13        A.   They were all from Bijeljina.

14        Q.   All right.

15        A.   As far as I know.

16        Q.   From Serbia, it was only Arkan's men?

17        A.   Arkan's men were from Serbia for the most part, but there was

18     this one man from Bijeljina there too.  I know him.  He's younger than I

19     am.  He went to my elementary school.  I couldn't -- I could recognise

20     him, but I don't know his name.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note, could the speakers please

22     speak one at a time.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have too much time left.

24     How much time do I have left?  Could you tell me so that I can see what I

25     could deal with?

Page 12789

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Empirically, I believe you have

 2     about 20 minutes left, but Mr. Registrar is going to confirm this.

 3             I was wrong by two minutes.  You have 18 minutes left.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I hope that I will

 5     manage to deal with important things, at least.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, could I have a break now?

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's have a break.  Let's have

 8     a 20-minute break, and we will resume in 20 minutes.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're back in session.

12             Mr. Seselj, proceed.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I have some information about crimes which according to your

15     testimony were perpetrated by Arkan's men, when the photographs were

16     shown.  Now, do you know of any specific piece of information to which

17     Mirko Blagojevic and his men committed any crimes during the battle of

18     Bijeljina?

19        A.   I know a piece of information to this effect:  That

20     Mirko Blagojevic killed -- perhaps killed -- well, 100 per cent -- well,

21     he didn't kill, but he ordered the killing of Nargalic, Coso Nargalic.

22             The other one, the other piece of information is this.  My

23     professor, Ferid Zecevic, was proclaimed by you, by the Radical Party and

24     Mirko Blagojevic that he's some kind of Mujahedin, that he's some kind of

25     Islamic army or whatever and that he organised something.  Because of

Page 12790

 1     that I consider that he either ordered or gave a statement -- or made a

 2     statement that he should be done away with, killed.  I think that that

 3     was in Batkovic camp.  That's my information.

 4        Q.   Just wait a moment.  What can Mirko Blagojevic have to do with

 5     the camp in Batkovic?

 6        A.   Well, because nobody knew of Arkan's men 100 per cent.  Well, I

 7     considered that nobody knew that Ferid Zecevic was some kind of organiser

 8     of the Islamic Mujahedin or -- or Coso, because in the past, before the

 9     war, Coso and Blagojevic had verbal duals, because Coso was a boxer and

10     Blagojevic was a boxer; and so they had conflicts and clashes, which

11     means that 100 per cent certain Blagojevic is responsible for Coso's

12     death.  I don't know who killed Coso Nargalic, but I know he wielded

13     influence on that killing, which means that Arkan's men didn't know who

14     Nargalic was or who Ferid Zecevic was.

15        Q.   But you're just making assumptions.

16        A.   No, I'm not.  I think I'm 90 per cent correct that that's how it

17     was, and that's what I'm saying, nothing else.

18        Q.   You think that that's how it was, but you haven't got a shred of

19     evidence?

20        A.   Well, I have a piece of evidence.  When we were at the

21     barricades, Cazim passed by us, Cazim Karadzic, the former colleague -- a

22     former colleague of Mirko Blagojevic.  He had been beaten up.  He was

23     covered in blood, and we could hardly recognise him.

24        Q.   So all those are your assumptions, speculation on your part.  You

25     don't know anything for sure?

Page 12791

 1        A.   Cazim Karadzic was beaten up.  I know that for sure.

 2        Q.   Who beat him up?

 3        A.   Mirko's men, Mirko Blagojevic's men beat him up, Cazim Karadzic.

 4     I repeat once again.  That means he was beaten up, they beat him up.

 5        Q.   When was Cazim Karadzic beaten up?

 6        A.   In the evening.  I don't know where he happened to be.

 7        Q.   What day?

 8        A.   On the following day, the 1st of March.  That's when he was

 9     beaten up.  He passed by us, and we couldn't recognise him.

10        Q.   Did you say the 1st of March?

11        A.   No, I meant the 1st of April.  After the conflicts in the

12     evening, when we set up the barricades, he passed by us that same day,

13     and I couldn't recognise the man.  I knew him before.

14        Q.   Let's stop.  Pause there for a bit.  Did he tell you that

15     Mirko Blagojevic's men had beaten him up?

16        A.   No, he didn't.  Mirko Blagojevic said he was in a hotel where he

17     had been beaten up.  Mirko Blagojevic happened to be in the hotel where

18     he was beaten up, and he said, "What have they done to you, Cazim,"

19     that's all.

20        Q.   So Mirko said to him, "What have they done to you, Cazim"?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And from that, you draw the conclusion that Mirko's men beat him

23     up?

24        A.   Of course I draw that conclusion.

25        Q.   Oh, come on, come on, let's move on.  If you find that normal and

Page 12792

 1     natural, let's move on straight away.

 2             Now, do you know that the Serbian Radical Party in Bijeljina was

 3     established together by Mirko Blagojevic and Izet Salihbegovic?

 4        A.   I know Izet Salihbegovic and his late brother, the brother who

 5     died and was the proprietor of a cafe opposite the park.  I know them

 6     well.

 7        Q.   Well, do you know that he and Mirko set up the party together?

 8        A.   No, I don't know that, because I'm not interested in the man at

 9     all.

10        Q.   All right.  Then we can move on right away.

11             Now, you said in your statement somewhere that in the Srbija

12     Cafe, Arkan's men, Captain Dragan's men, congregated and so on?

13        A.   No, I didn't put it that way.  I said that Serbs frequented the

14     cafe.

15        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, when did Arkan arrive in Bijeljina?

16        A.   Some 15 days before, he was seen around Bijeljina with his unit

17     as he was stationed there.

18        Q.   And how many men did his units number?

19        A.   I don't know.  They appeared in those military "pinskalas"

20     [phoen] or what are they called?

21        Q.   You've just invented that, made it all up, and wait for me to ask

22     you the question.  Arkan first appeared in Bijeljina in the early-morning

23     hours of the 1st of April, 1992, and he arrived with 29 men?

24        A.   That's not correct.  Arkan's men and that young man whom I knew

25     came earlier on.

Page 12793

 1        Q.   Do you know who called Arkan to come to Bijeljina?

 2        A.   I don't know who called him, but I do know that he was in

 3     Bijeljina before --

 4        Q.   If I tell you that he was called personally by Biljana Plavsic,

 5     does that tell you anything?

 6        A.   No, it doesn't.

 7        Q.   Do you know that immediately after the liberation of Bijeljina,

 8     Biljana Plavsic arrived with Fikret Abdic?

 9        A.   Yes, he was disloyal, a traitor to his people.

10        Q.   Fikret Abdic is not important.

11        A.   Yes, he is important.  You could say that Fikret Abdic came to

12     Bijeljina, which means he was a traitor of his own people.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers kindly slow down and speak

14     one at a time.  They are overlapping.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Well, refrain from proclaiming people traitors, will you, because

17     you, from Brcko, fled to Western Europe.  It never occurred to you to

18     fight in the war.

19             Now let's see this:  Do you know that Biljana Plavsic,

20     immediately upon arrival in Bijeljina, publicly kissed Arkan?  That was

21     public, it was on television.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you know that Biljana Plavsic struck a bargain with The Hague

24     Tribunal to be given a smaller sentence, and that she appeared as a false

25     witness in the Momcilo Krajisnik trial?

Page 12794

 1        A.   No, I don't.

 2        Q.   We'll move on.  Does the name of Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer ring a

 3     bell?

 4        A.   Yes.  You killed him.

 5        Q.   Who killed him?

 6        A.   You killed him after the war.

 7        Q.   I killed him?

 8        A.   No, you Serbs, your own people, not my people.  Mauzer was

 9     killed.

10        Q.   Are you sorry that he was killed?

11        A.   I don't know.  You would have to ask that question --

12        Q.   Now, why would it be important for us here who killed Mauzer?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   I just asked you whether his name was familiar.

15        A.   Yes, it is familiar.

16        Q.   Do you know that Mauzer took part in the fighting in Bijeljina

17     too?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Do you know that Mauzer, after those battles, in cooperation with

20     Arkan, set up the guards that were called the Panthers?

21        A.   No, I don't know that, because I wasn't in Bosnia-Herzegovina at

22     that time.

23        Q.   You've never heard about that?

24        A.   No, never.

25        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, do you know this: that Mauzer, immediately

Page 12795

 1     after the liberation of Bijeljina, took over -- seized power, almost all

 2     power, in Bijeljina?

 3        A.   I heard that, and I'd heard you killed him later on.

 4        Q.   All right.  The fact that we killed him later on, well, that's

 5     not it.  Well, maybe it's a good idea, maybe it's not.  But why is that

 6     important, that Mauzer was killed later?  Let's focus on my questions.

 7     What do I care that Mauzer was killed?

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, please try and wait with your answer

 9     until you have seen the cursor on the screen in front of you stop,

10     because only when the cursor stops is the translation finished.  You see,

11     if you overlap, then we do not understand a word of what you're saying,

12     and then we might as well just close.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

14             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   As a man from Bijeljina, although you weren't present yourself,

16     do you know, in talking to other fellow townsmen, that after these

17     battles, Mauzer ceased to respect any military and political authority in

18     Republika Srpska, that he set out on his own, he became independent?

19        A.   Well, yes, I do know that, and perhaps he was right in doing so.

20        Q.   All right.  You can continue to support him and say he was right

21     in doing so, but what I'm asking you is this:  Do you know that Radovan

22     Karadzic and Ratko Mladic avoided coming to Bijeljina while Mauzer was

23     the main authority there?

24        A.   No, I don't know about that.

25        Q.   Do you know that Mirko Blagojevic and the Serbian Radical Party

Page 12796

 1     were for years in a public conflict with Mauzer?

 2        A.   I heard about that.

 3        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, do you know this: that Mauzer, in addition

 4     to closely cooperating with Arkan, was the vice-president of the

 5     Democratic Party of Zoran Djindjic?

 6        A.   I don't know that.

 7        Q.   Do you know that after the Dayton Accords, he went out to the

 8     elections in Republika Srpska at the head of Djindjic's Democratic Party

 9     for Republika Srpska?

10        A.   Well, that means that the man was in favour of democracy, which

11     means he was a good man.

12        Q.   Well, you go on commending him.  It's very nice of you to do so.

13             Now, do you know that after those elections, Mauzer became the

14     main chief of police in Republika Srpska, the deputy to the minister?

15        A.   No, I don't know that.

16        Q.   You don't know?

17        A.   Well, no.  Can I tell you something?  I'm not interested in

18     Mauzer at all.  I'm not interested in the topic at all.

19        Q.   All right, fine.  Now, many books published by the Muslims, your

20     compatriots, I find the information that main crimes against the

21     Bijeljina Muslims were perpetrated by Arkan and Mauzer.

22        A.   Well, that's not right.

23        Q.   Well, you go ahead and defend Mauzer.

24        A.   I'm not defending Mauzer.  All I'm saying is this:  If he was in

25     the Democratic Party of Zoran Djindjic, it means he was repentant and

Page 12797

 1     that he had opted for democracy.  That's all I said.  I didn't say I

 2     defended him.

 3        Q.   And he continued in his mafia dealings?

 4        A.   Well, let me say again --

 5        Q.   Do you know who looted the whole of Janja?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   Do you know that Janja is the largest Muslim village in Bijeljina

 8     municipality?

 9        A.   Yes, I do know that.  Between Janja and Bijeljina, there are 10

10     Serb villages, and between Janja and Zvornik too.

11        Q.   Well, how are you, as a Muslim, not interested in who looted the

12     whole of Janja and expelled the whole of the Muslim population from the

13     village?

14        A.   I know who did that.

15        Q.   Who?

16        A.   And I know who was expelled from Bijeljina, who expelled the

17     Muslims from Bijeljina and Janja.

18        Q.   Who was it?

19        A.   It was -- just a moment, just let me remember.

20        Q.   Was it somebody who was a self-appointed major, perhaps?  Was his

21     name similar to mine?

22        A.   Just a moment, just let me take a moment.

23        Q.   Well, I'm waiting.

24        A.   I knew his name, but I can't remember it just now.

25        Q.   Was it Vojkan?

Page 12798

 1        A.   Yes, yes, Vojkan.  He expelled my mother.  My mother was on the

 2     list too.

 3        Q.   And what was his surname?

 4        A.   Djuric.  It began with a "Dj" letter.

 5        Q.   You mean Djurkovic.  Do you know Mirko Blagojevic was in conflict

 6     with him all the time?

 7        A.   I don't know that, no.

 8        Q.   Did you hear that Mirko Blagojevic from the very first day fought

 9     against the expulsion and persecution of Muslims from the Bijeljina area?

10        A.   That's not true.

11        Q.   Well, The Hague Tribunal has public statements made by Mirko

12     Blagojevic in standing up to Mauzer and Djurkovic and I have copies of

13     that here.

14        A.   He did stand up to them, but finally he said that we should all

15     be expelled.

16        Q.   Do you know Mirko Blagojevic?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You've just invented that.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping, and it is

20     impossible to interpret.  Could they please slow one by one.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   When the OTP people talked to you and proofed you, led by

23     Mr. Mussemeyer --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, take your time.  You

25     are speaking too fast, responding too fast, and the interpreters are

Page 12799

 1     complaining once again.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   During the proofing session, did Mr. Mussemeyer perhaps show you

 4     the public statements made in 1992 and 1993, and the following years, by

 5     Mirko Blagojevic in Bijeljina?

 6        A.   In 1993, well, that was already the area where there were no more

 7     Muslims left.  I think there was just a small percentage.  So the

 8     important day is the 31st and the 1st and after that, whereas in 1993,

 9     there were no more Muslims there, so whom could he have protected?  To

10     protect Muslims, the Muslims had to go up to the line and dig trenches

11     for the Serb forces up at Mount Majevica.

12        Q.   There were enough Muslims in Bijeljina, and some of them were

13     members of the Serbian army, and Mauzer expelled those, too, from

14     Bijeljina?

15        A.   That's not true.

16        Q.   All right, if you say it's not true.

17        A.   It's not true.  They had to go and dig trenches.  They were

18     forced to go and dig trenches at Majevica.

19        Q.   Does that mean that Mr. Mussemeyer didn't show you the public

20     statements made by Mirko Blagojevic?

21        A.   I know what Mirko Blagojevic did.

22        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you.  I'm asking you about the

23     Prosecutor, Mr. Mussemeyer.  He's over there, across the way, sitting in

24     the courtroom.  He conducted the proofing session with you.  Well, if he

25     didn't show you that, he didn't prepare you for this -- for your

Page 12800

 1     testimony well enough.

 2        A.   Well, I prepared myself, and I'm saying what I said, what I've

 3     already said.  I've talked about it, and that's what I want to talk

 4     about.  I don't want to talk about Mauzer and what he did.

 5        Q.   You seem to me to be a little nervous.  You're too nervous during

 6     your testimony.

 7        A.   You are swerving from the topic.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, don't fly off the

 9     handle.  It's useless.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Comrade Judge, he's talking about

11     subjects that I'm not interested in.  I'm focusing on my own topic, so he

12     should speak about what I said, not about Mauzer, because when I left

13     Bijeljina, I wasn't interested about what happened afterwards, whether

14     Mirko Blagojevic, in 1993, was saving the Muslims or whether he was

15     persecuting them.  I focused my attention from the 31st and the 1st.

16     Well, I wasn't interested in Mauzer at all, nor was I interested in

17     Vojkan Djurkovic.  He's on the list.  My mother was expelled, too.  She

18     was on the list, and that was in the Bosnian papers.

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, Mr. Seselj is

20     interested in this.  If you don't have the answer, just say, "I don't

21     know."  That's it.  Unfortunately, you cannot choose the questions that

22     are going to be put to you, the questions that you want to answer.  You

23     must answer all questions put to you.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, proceed.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 12801

 1        Q.   So you only know one thing, what you've invented; that I was

 2     sitting in the cafe, up at the bar, with Mirko Blagojevic, deciding on

 3     the killing of the Muslims, and on the basis of that you seem to have

 4     merited that The Hague Tribunal has managed to procure a residency for

 5     you in a foreign country.  So that's all you're sticking to.  You're not

 6     interested in anything else.  You weren't interested in the struggle and

 7     fight of the Muslims, although you took part a little bit in the first

 8     days.  Then you beat a hasty retreat from Brcko to the West, and you

 9     weren't interested anymore.  And now you've come to fulfill what you owe

10     The Hague Tribunal as a mark of recognition and gratitude for them having

11     got you a permit in a foreign country, where you have a good job and a

12     good salary and you couldn't care less?

13        A.   Could I say something?

14        Q.   You can say whatever you like.

15        A.   Judge, Your Honour, I want to say this:  What I said here is the

16     truth.  Secondly, you can take it -- well, you can take documents from

17     the police in the country in which I'm residing, when you know on the

18     basis of which I was granted a residence permit.  So I don't need to give

19     anything back to The Hague Tribunal that I owe them.  I obtained my

20     papers in regular fashion through my wife.  I am legally married to my

21     wife, and it was through her that I was able to get my papers.

22             I state once again that what Mr. Seselj is saying is not the

23     truth.  So whenever you want to see the documents, my file in the police

24     station, on the basis of which I was granted a residency permit.  So let

25     me repeat that once again.  That's why I'm nervous, because of his lies,

Page 12802

 1     because he is not telling the truth.  So he does not know how I came to

 2     be given my residency papers, so I ask you once again to take my police

 3     file, look at the documents, and then we can resolve that issue.

 4        Q.   You received your papers on the basis of a number of requests

 5     made by The Hague Tribunal to the state organs of that country, and of

 6     those many requests, one of them has been provided by Mr. Mussemeyer, and

 7     it is Patrick Lopez-Terres' letter three days after talking to you and

 8     after you had signed the statement.  Immediate -- he reacted immediately

 9     to protect you as a valuable witness; isn't that right?

10        A.   No, it isn't.

11        Q.   Well, what does this paper mean?

12        A.   That's the paper, but it wasn't on the basis of that paper that I

13     was given residency.

14        Q.   Is this a forgery, then?

15        A.   No, it isn't.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted) documents referring to the request made by The Hague Tribunal and

18     the OTP of The Hague.

19             Now, Judges, Mr. Mussemeyer should have brought in the document

20     from 2007 granting this witness permanent residence in the third country.

21     We're lacking a lot of documents, but we do have 11 pages that are very

22     valuable and explain everything to us.  So this isn't documentation

23     against this witness, primarily; it is against The Hague OTP and the

24     methods employed by the OTP.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we need to

Page 12803

 1     redact line 5, page 98.  There is mention of the country.  Line 5,

 2     page 98.

 3             I believe your time has almost run out, Mr. Seselj.  Please

 4     resume and finish.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did I mention the country?  I don't

 6     think I did.  I mentioned it?  Well, then it was truly by accident.

 7        Q.   Mr. VS-1028, the price that you paid in order to get permanent

 8     residency is not a high one in your moral framework, but in the moral

 9     framework that all honest people are guided by and all of mankind is

10     guided by, it is a very, very high price.  It's better not to be alive

11     than to perjure oneself.

12        A.   That's not true.

13        Q.   In your people and in your religious group, perjury is one of the

14     most terrible crimes, whereas you decided to perjure yourself in order to

15     get a residency permit.  We have information attesting to that.

16        A.   Can I say something now?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.

18             Mr. Mussemeyer.

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I realise the accused now is changing from using

20     the words "false witness."  He is using other words, but the meaning is

21     the same.  He should restrain from this.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, what do you want to

23     add?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that what he said,

25     I mean, that I got papers on the basis of the fact that I came here,

Page 12804

 1     that's not true.  You can check that.  You can check that.  I've said

 2     that several times.  I didn't get papers on that basis, nor would I ask

 3     to get papers on that basis.

 4             As for my faith, I am very clear on that.  I never lied.  I come

 5     from a very good family, too.  I'm not interested in his faith, but what

 6     I say, that is true.  You can take the documentation from the police of

 7     the country that I am in.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a question for you in

 9     this respect.

10             Based on the documents that we have been given, or based on this

11     document, you went to the country I'm not going to name on the 11th of

12     May, 1992, and you applied for asylum.  The application was denied.  And

13     based on this document, you then left the country in question.

14             Later on, you returned to that country, and at some point I see

15     this detail in the document:  On the 23rd of November, 1999, you

16     explained to an office in that country that you have not left the

17     country.  On the 14th of November, 2000, so that's one year later, you

18     introduced or presented a passport, and you allegedly gave your real name

19     then.  Does this mean that when you went to that country, you went under

20     a fake name?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I used a different name,

22     because they were looking for me.  In 1992, when I came to this country

23     where I had been, a woman told me -- a woman who was there told me that

24     she had heard that I had already been killed, that I was no longer among

25     the living, so I had to protect my life.  I had to say something.  So

Page 12805

 1     since in that country, on that year, it wasn't that only Muslims had

 2     fled; Serbs and Croats had sought refuge there too.  Many Serbs assumed

 3     Muslim names in order to register.  So I had to protect myself somehow,

 4     so for the sake of my own safety and security, I had to change my name.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  But, sir, you applied in

 6     1992 for asylum, and it was a regular application.  No problem about

 7     that.  But later on, in 1995, you returned to that country.  Then,

 8     obviously, you gave a different name, and you applied for asylum under a

 9     different name, and that's the reality of it.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already explained, I was

11     afraid.  I was afraid for my life.  I feared for my life, and I explained

12     that to the police of that country, and it says that over there.  So it

13     was for the sake of my own safety.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, any redirect?

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have only two additional questions.  But

16     before I come to this, I must again make you aware that the accused has

17     used extensively a book which he did not provide before

18     cross-examination.  He even did not inform us that he would quote from

19     this book.  And for me, this is completely unprofessional.

20             Now to my questions.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know the date, the month, for example, when

23     you got the permanent residence in the country you are living in now?

24        A.   On the 25th of May, 2007.  I think that was it, the 25th of May,

25     2007.  The 25th.

Page 12806

 1        Q.   And the second statement you gave to us was in November of 2007,

 2     so that was some months after you got the permanent residence; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   My second question:  Which month in 1992 did you leave Bijeljina?

 6        A.   I think in April, mid-April, after the conflict.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Just to assist the Trial Chamber, the letter

 8     Mr. Seselj was referring to, the letter from Mr. Blagojevic, is from

 9     September, the 27th of September, 1992.  So the witness has already left

10     in April and Mr. Blagojevic wrote this letter in September.  It has the

11     exhibit number -- not the exhibit number, sorry, the 65 ter number 1677

12     and 1678.  It's the same document.

13             This is all I wanted to know.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

15             This concludes your testimony, Witness.  I shall ask the usher --

16     he is not there because he had to take a document out of the courtroom.

17             Before you leave the courtroom, we have to lower the blinds.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something at the end now?

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  What do you want to say?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to say that what I

21     testified here against Mr. Seselj, I mean, I would like to say that all

22     Serbs or other ethnicities -- well, I really don't know how to put this.

23     I mean, not everybody is the same.  And may I also say that I hope that

24     the evil that befell my people and my country never befall anyone.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're going to be

Page 12807

 1     escorted out of the courtroom, but first the usher has to lower the

 2     blinds.

 3             You may leave the courtroom.  Let's make sure that the cameras

 4     are not turned on.

 5             Let's move into private session before you leave the courtroom.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Tomorrow, in open session,

16     we'll have Witness VS-44.  Of course, since he's a Court witness, a

17     witness of the Trial Chamber, I'll ask him whether he wants to testify in

18     open session, and thereafter the Trial Chamber will have questions for

19     the witness.  As usual, I can already sketch out the proceedings: that

20     everybody be prepared; there will be questions on his personal situation;

21     his political involvement in the 1990s; then he will be asked questions

22     regarding the Serb Radical Party from 1991 to 1994; then the issue of

23     dispatching volunteers; relationships between Mr. Seselj and other

24     members of the joint criminal enterprise; questions on speeches made by

25     Mr. Seselj; the issue of financing of the SRS; questions on the part

Page 12808

 1     played within the SRS by Mr. Seselj; and other questions arising from the

 2     usual questions.  Once that is over, the Prosecutor will have an hour,

 3     Mr. Seselj too.  But since the Judges are basically going to cover the

 4     entire scope of all these questions, it may be that you just have

 5     residual questions to put, inasmuch as the Trial Chamber will deal with

 6     the essential questions during that first stage of the proceedings.  We

 7     shall endeavour to comply with the schedule in the hope that we can

 8     finish tomorrow's hearing with the testimony of this witness.

 9             Let us hope that he will arrive today.  He was supposed to arrive

10     today, and since he's a witness of the Trial Chamber, nobody will see him

11     before he gets to this courtroom; neither the Judges, nor the Prosecution

12     or the accused.

13             The time has come for us to adjourn.  We shall reconvene tomorrow

14     at 8.30.  Thank you.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.52 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day of

17                           December, 2008, at 8.30 a.m.