Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13707

 1                           Thursday, 29 January 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.31 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Vojislav Seselj.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

12             This is Thursday, January 29, 2009.  Now, 2000, as we see here on

13     the transcript, up on the screen.  We're only in 2000.

14             So I welcome all people in the courtroom, representatives of the

15     OTP, Mr. Seselj, our witness, as well as everyone helping us.

16             Let's continue with the examination-in-chief.  You still have 30

17     minutes, Mr. Mussemeyer.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Your Honour, and good morning to

19     everybody in the courtroom.

20                           WITNESS:  WITNESS VS-1035 [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

22                           Examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:  [Continued]

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, I wanted to come back to the collecting of bodies

24     where you participated.  Can you tell us how long you needed to collect

25     all the bodies in Bijeljina?

Page 13708

 1        A.   About two days.

 2        Q.   Had you been under certain pressure or in a rush to collect as

 3     soon as possible?

 4        A.   Well, it had to be done over those two days because this was

 5     followed by a visit by some people from the government of the Republic of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The area had to be cleared before their arrival.

 7        Q.   While collecting these bodies, did you see or contact Arkan on

 8     these days?

 9        A.   Not directly, that I didn't see him -- rather -- oh, but I saw

10     him, and I contacted the person who was with him in the car.

11        Q.   Can you please describe us this situation?

12        A.   I think it was the second day, while we were collecting the

13     bodies.  I had received a call from the duty officer to go to the

14     courtyard of the Secretariat for All People's Defence.  He said there

15     were some dead bodies there.  So we were there in the immediate vicinity,

16     waiting for someone to point out to us the location of those dead bodies,

17     since we were unable to find them ourselves.

18             At this point, I realised there was a car approaching from behind

19     me.  I suddenly heard someone greet me from the car.  I turned around and

20     saw Mr. Zecevic in the vehicle.  Mr. Arkan was in the driver's seat.

21        Q.   Do you remember the first name of Mr. Zecevic?

22        A.   Ferid Zecevic.

23        Q.   What did he do before the conflict?  What was his profession?

24        A.   He was a secondary school teacher.  At the time, he was running a

25     catering establishment in Bijeljina on Racanska Street, which is in the

Page 13709

 1     general direction of Belgrade and near the barracks.

 2        Q.   Did you know where they went or where Arkan brought him?

 3        A.   As far as I know, during those days he was often with Arkan since

 4     Arkan had captured him, if you like, or was simply driving him around

 5     Bijeljina and Janja as some sort of a shield to protect him from the

 6     Muslims.

 7        Q.   Do you know if he is still alive?

 8        A.   No.  He was killed, I think in June or possibly July of 1992.

 9        Q.   Do you know who killed him?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you know if Arkan had any influence or contacts to the local

12     Serb authorities?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, he probably had contacts with the Municipal

14     Presidency.  While he was at the Crisis Staff, they were together.

15        Q.   Was he, for example, in a position to give orders?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Where do you know this from?

18        A.   Well, while his people were still able to go there, to our area,

19     do whatever they pleased, seize vehicles, and be there deployed with all

20     the other colleagues, all of us, the patrols and so on and so forth, that

21     meant it wasn't his orders and certainly not because we wanted it to be

22     that way or because our boss had ordered that.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

24             Mr. Registrar, I would like to see the document with the 65 ter

25     number 1525 on the monitor.  For your information, this is a report dated

Page 13710

 1     the 29th of July, 1992, by the Ministry of Internal Affairs regarding

 2     Bijeljina sent by Dragan Adnan.  This document has already been tendered

 3     in the Milosevic case under the Exhibit 411, tab 7.

 4             Could I please see the second page.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, could you please read the first paragraph from

 6     the second page and, also, the five enumerations which follow?  Could you

 7     please read this?

 8        A.   Sure.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the English please be displayed for the

10     benefit of the interpreters, thank you, and ask the witness to read

11     slowly.  Thank you.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, can I interrupt you?  The interpreters cannot

14     follow.  They will have to see the English text.  Just wait a moment.

15             Mr. Witness, could you please restart reading again, and please

16     read slowly that the interpreters can follow.

17        A.   "Information from the Ministry of the Interior Security Services

18     Centre, Bijeljina, about the involvement and activities of the Ministry

19     of the Interior for the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in

20     establishing authority and the rule of law in the area covered by the

21     Bijeljina Security Services Centre.

22             "It is generally known that attacks by Muslim armed groups in the

23     territory covered by the Bijeljina CSB started on the 1st of April, 1992.

24     After the Bijeljina Territorial Defence, partly assisted by the so-called

25     Serbian Volunteer Guard, had routed their armed forces, attempts were

Page 13711

 1     made to ensure the functioning of the legal organs and institutions of

 2     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  However, the

 3     paramilitary groups in attendance, in the first place the Serbian

 4     Volunteer Guard, taking advantage of the situation and the slowness with

 5     which new organs of government were being constituted, established a

 6     parallel authority of their own in Bijeljina.  Members of the Serbian

 7     Volunteer Guard even entered the Public Security Station, pretending to

 8     be instructors, using this as a pretext to engage on a massive scale in

 9     various kinds of abuse in flagrant violation of the law.  Some workers of

10     the Public Security Station even helped them and only for the purposes of

11     financial and other kinds of gain.

12             "Among other things, during the period until the 27th of June,

13     1992, frequent cases of the following occurred:  terrorising of the

14     population, both Muslim and Serbian; numerous rapes; theft of property

15     and foreign currency; unauthorised invasion of houses and removal of

16     appliances, gold, artworks, et cetera; appropriation of flats and houses,

17     including the physical expulsion and even liquidation of some of the

18     owners.

19             "Over than 10 people of various ethnic origins were killed an

20     without apparent motive.  All these cases remain unsolved.  Not a single

21     criminal report was submitted regarding these murders."

22             That's as much as I can see on the screen.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Registrar, the next page.

24        Q.   And I want -- Mr. Witness, I want you to read the next two

25     paragraphs, short paragraphs.  Is it possible to start now?

Page 13712

 1        A.   The next two paragraphs?

 2        Q.   The next paragraph, on the English translation, starts with the

 3     words:  "The departure from Bijeljina ..."   If you could continue from

 4     there.

 5        A.   Is that the third paragraph:

 6             "Since the arrival on the 27th of June, 1992 ..."

 7        Q.   No, we stopped where you were reading:

 8             "... not a single criminal report was submitted regarding these

 9     murders."

10             And the next paragraph starts with:

11             "The departure from the Bijeljina area ..."

12             Is it on the page before?  Probably.

13        A.   Yes, I see it now.

14        Q.   Could you please read this paragraph and the following one.

15        A.   "The departure from the Bijeljina area of both Muslim and Serbian

16     citizens as a result of pressure and terror by paramilitary groups."

17             The next paragraph, please.

18        Q.   And, please, this last paragraph.

19        A.   "The introduction of a curfew during the commission of said

20     crimes, although there were also cases of theft, rape, robbery and murder

21     in broad daylight, as well, by camouflaged and masked members of these

22     groups."

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  And can you please let us know if this

24     reflects your observations at that time?  Did you share the assessment of

25     this -- do you share the assessment of this report?

Page 13713

 1        A.   I can talk about the time I spent there.  This was going on, so

 2     it's true.  Everything described here is true and reflects faithfully the

 3     situation in Bijeljina.

 4             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

 5             Your Honours, I would like --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a small detail.

 7     It's only a detail, but it might be important in order to really

 8     understand what happened.

 9             It says that the paramilitary groups were terrorising the

10     population, but I draw the attention of my colleagues on this paragraph

11     because the people who leave Bijeljina are both Muslims and Serbian

12     citizens.  Witness, you had a specific duty in this municipality; you

13     observed what happened, and in this report it seems to say that following

14     the action of these paramilitary troops, the entire population of

15     Bijeljina, Serbians as well as Muslims, were extremely afraid and left

16     the town.  Both communities left the town.  So did you tell us that the

17     Serbians did leave the city because they were afraid of these groups, of

18     these paramilitary groups?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The fear was so great, people

20     were so scared of these individuals, that one never knew who would be

21     next up, Serb, Croat, or Muslim.  Mostly, they went for people who were

22     well off and who owned some property, so they were temporarily moved to

23     Serbia or somewhere abroad.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's now move to the essential

25     question, which is the following:  These groups, if these groups were

Page 13714

 1     attacking Bijeljina with a view to carry out ethnic cleansing, thinking,

 2     We're going to terrorise the Muslims so they leave, but then how can you

 3     reconcile this with the fact that the Serbs were afraid and also left the

 4     city?  Do you think there's an explanation, as far as you're concerned,

 5     or not?  And I just want your opinion.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the only explanation I have

 7     is that all the ethnicities were scared and living in a state of fear.

 8     There were groups that were under no one's direct command.  They were

 9     self-motivated, if I can call them that.  If, for example, a Serb, a

10     Muslim or a Croat drove by in a nice car, they would just seize the car

11     and drive off, and you would be left standing there.  That's why

12     everyone, and not just the Muslims, were scared of those people.  There

13     was no way to track them down afterwards, nor, indeed, did you know who

14     they were.  There were many people who came in from other areas, and they

15     were linked to local criminals.  I could, to all practical intents, call

16     them criminals.  I don't think they were members of any unit.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're saying that they were

18     criminals, and they came from outside, and they linked up with local

19     criminals.  So we are listening to what you're saying very carefully, but

20     if I read again what you just said, you know, and thinking about the

21     first example that is in the text, terrorising the population and Muslims

22     and Serbs all leave, and then the author of the report mentions

23     everything that happened:  rapes, destruction of property, theft, and so

24     forth and so on.  As far as you're concerned, do you know if Serbian

25     women were raped?

Page 13715

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say that I

 2     don't have any information on rape in the area, not for as long as I was

 3     there.  I'm not aware of a single incident.  I know about the

 4     misappropriation of property, and I can say that the soldiers and the

 5     paramilitaries were receiving assistance from someone in Bijeljina, which

 6     means they would go straight to some specific persons who they knew were

 7     well off or in possession of something of value, which means that they

 8     had been receiving instructions from Bijeljina because if you just come

 9     into Sarajevo from a different area, you have no idea who is well off and

10     who isn't.  You need someone local on the ground to tell you, This or

11     that man is well off or wealthy, so that you can then go to that person,

12     seize their goods, and expel them.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  If I understood you

14     well, some Serbian houses were looted.  There were also Serbs whose cars

15     were stolen, whose money was stolen.  Of course, Muslims, too, but you

16     are telling us that Serbs did fall victim to them.

17             Very well.

18             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, I would like to move this document

19     into evidence.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let's give it a

21     number, Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P741.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

Page 13716

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, you already told us when you met Arkan the first

 2     time in Bijeljina.  Was there also a second time that you saw him, and

 3     can you let us know if it was like this?

 4        A.   The next time it happened was one or two days later, when

 5     representatives of the then BH Government were visiting,

 6     Ms. Biljana Plavsic and Mr. Fikret Abdic.

 7        Q.   Was their arrival the reason that you had to hurry up with

 8     cleaning the bodies?

 9        A.   Most probably.

10        Q.   Do you remember what Arkan was doing when greeting Ms. Plavsic?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Mussemeyer.

12     Sometimes the English translation is a bit sketchy.  I believe that when

13     the witness -- when the witness is talking in Bosnian, I get the

14     translation directly from French -- into French, and when I look at the

15     English transcript, it's a bit different from what I heard in French.

16             You asked -- okay.  Obviously, Ms. Plavsic and Fikret Abdic

17     arrived, and you're asking what the reason was for them to come.  And

18     then you're asking whether he didn't have to hurry collecting the bodies

19     because they were arriving.  In English, it says:

20             "Probably, yes."

21             That's the answer we obtained.  But in the French translation, we

22     heard something else.  He said that these people had come for that very

23     reason.  So maybe they arrived because there had been casualties, so we

24     would like the witness to expound on this and to explain.

25             Is he collecting the bodies because there is some imminent

Page 13717

 1     personalities coming and they don't want to be bothered by bodies, seeing

 2     bodies littering the streets, or is it that you have to rush and collect

 3     the bodies just because Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Abdic are coming to check

 4     what happened?  So could you ask the witness exactly why Mrs. Plavsic and

 5     Mr. Abdic came and if he could explain why he had to rush into collecting

 6     these bodies.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, you heard the question of the Presiding Judge.  Do

 9     you know what was the reason why Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Abdic came to

10     Bijeljina?

11        A.   The arrival of that delegation was not the reason for them to see

12     or not to see.  The reason was a different one.  They had, I think, been

13     invited by the SDA and the SDS from Bijeljina to visit so that the

14     problems occurring between the bodies in Bijeljina, or shall we call them

15     clashes, would be prevented and that the situation be normalised.  I know

16     that this delegation coming from Bijeljina was stopped at one point and

17     were not allowed into Bijeljina until all of the victims were cleared

18     from the streets.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Mr. President, I have

20     an objection.  This might be labelled a guerrilla attack by me on the

21     Prosecution, but I do have to say a while ago, when the witness first

22     mentioned Plavsic and Fikret Abdic, he called her "Milena Plavsic."  It's

23     an error.  The error might be made by anyone, but it was up to the

24     Prosecutor to warn the witness and set the record straight.  However,

25     there was something else that happened.

Page 13718

 1             On the transcript, instead of "Milena Plavsic," I read the

 2     correct version, Biljana Plavsic.  Is an interpreter allowed to set the

 3     witness straight?  For example, an interpreter notices that the witness

 4     misspoke and then he corrects this?  I think not.  Maybe the Prosecution

 5     can do that, maybe the Trial Chamber, and maybe the accused himself can

 6     raise an objection.  I'm not attacking the witness for saying "Milena,"

 7     but how can someone assume for themselves the right to correct the

 8     witness?

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Sir, can you tell

10     us the name and Christian name of the lady accompanying Mr. Fikret?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for the error, for

12     saying "Milena."  I just said "Milena Plavsic," but the person involved

13     is Biljana Plavsic.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

15             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I quickly checked on the English transcript, and

16     I didn't see "Milena Plavsic" mentioned by the witness, and I did not

17     hear this.  Should I have heard this, I would have asked him to correct

18     this.  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             Your Honours, I would like to show two stills now, which we have

20     in the Sanction system.

21             For your information, this is a still from a video showing the

22     arrival of Biljana Plavsic and greeting Mr. Arkan.  This is a still from

23     a video which is not on the exhibit list.  I only found it last week

24     while checking videos for another case, and this is the reason why we

25     don't have it on the exhibit list.  It's from a video which has the ERN

Page 13719

 1     number V000-0293.

 2             Could you show the next one.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we see the video rather

 4     than seeing the photograph or the still?

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This video I did not prepare.  Maybe that it is

 6     in Sanction, but we have to search it.  For reasons of time, I decided

 7     for a still because the video itself is not that interesting.  It shows

 8     only the arrival by these persons in a car and then this scene which is

 9     shown on the still.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, the picture I have on my screen

11     is blurred.  I see a woman kissing a gentleman, I think.

12             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And two other gentlemen turning their back to the

14     photographer.  I have no idea who is depicted or where it is or when it

15     was taken.

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I would like the witness to tell us if he

17     recognises -- if he was present at this scene and if he can tell us who

18     it is.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you please do this?

20        A.   This is the moment the delegation arrived, the delegation I've

21     already mentioned, Madam Plavsic and Mr. Fikret, and this picture was

22     taken in front of the municipal building of Bijeljina, and this is the

23     moment when Madam Plavsic is greeting Mr. Arkan, that is, kissing him.

24        Q.   Do you remember the date when this happened?

25        A.   I can't tell you the exact date, but it may have been the fifth

Page 13720

 1     or sixth day after the outbreak of the conflict in Bijeljina.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The gentlemen that we see from

 3     behind, is Fikret Abdic among them or not?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Which one of the two is he?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you by looking at the

 7     photo.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So how do you know it's Mr. Fikret Abdic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that he arrived.  I saw them

10     coming, Mrs. Plavsic and Fikret Abdic.  But if I don't see their faces, I

11     can't say which one of the two he is because we -- they have their back

12     turned.  The other two persons I can see on face.  I can recognise

13     Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Arkan.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But I suppose they could be bodyguards or members

15     of the Municipal Council or somebody else, couldn't they?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was the President of the

17     Municipal Assembly and Fikret Abdic.  They were in that company, in that

18     group.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, Fikret Abdic was a

20     Muslim, wasn't he?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When he came, did he know that

23     Muslims had been killed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether he knew, probably he did,

25     because there must have been news on the various TV channels.  He may

Page 13721

 1     have learnt that there were dead.  There were photographs by the TV

 2     stations reporting there.  But he must have known; only they didn't come

 3     for that reason, to see whether there were any dead or not.  They came

 4     mainly to calm the situation down.  They were called and invited to come

 5     but not to investigate what had actually happened.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Go ahead,

 7     Prosecutor.

 8             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, if you would let me to shed some

 9     light on this, I wanted to prove only that Mr. Arkan and Mrs. Plavsic met

10     that day.  We also have two additional stills and a video showing Arkan

11     and Ms. Plavsic in a room of the community.  I didn't foresee to show

12     this for time reasons, but I can show this now.  I'm not sure of

13     everything is on there because I decided for stills.  If you want to see

14     this, we are prepared for this.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You would like to have the

16     photograph on the file.  Registrar, could you attribute a number to this

17     exhibit?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

19     anything, I think the Prosecutor should show the video.  I'm curious why

20     he's avoiding to do that, and the Prosecution has this video in its

21     possession for more than ten years.  Maybe something is shown that the

22     Prosecutor doesn't want us to see.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During the break, the

24     Prosecutor will try and get hold of this video, and if he finds it, then

25     we'll take a look at it afterwards.

Page 13722

 1             In the meantime, let's have a number for this still.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The still will be Exhibit P742.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Do you want me to show the video we have

 4     prepared?  I can do this.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  These additional two stills from the video

 7     I think we can show you.  I saw it in the folder.  This is at the

 8     municipality, and I think we have a video, also, in Sanction, the

 9     video-clip of this scene.

10                           [Videotape played]

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is a video-clip from the Exhibit 65 ter

12     number 6051 on the exhibit list.  Now that we have played it, I also ask

13     to have moved it into evidence.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Before giving a

15     number to this exhibit, I would like the transcript to record that the

16     Judges were able to see the video where Mrs. Plavsic gives her -- the

17     reasons for her coming there and says that she visited the Crisis

18     Committee.  She is the one to talk about this Crisis Staff.  And next to

19     her, we see Mr. Arkan and apparently also Mr. Fikret Abdic, and she is

20     being interviewed, and someone is asking her questions.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

22     didn't see Fikret Abdic.  She said that Goran Hadzic was present.  On

23     this video, we didn't see Fikret Abdic, at least as far as I am able to

24     see.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you saw this video.  Did

Page 13723

 1     you recognise Fikret Abdic or not?  He must be well known, after all.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know those persons, but I

 3     cannot say with certainty who the person to the left of Mrs. Plavsic was,

 4     but I don't think he was present at this point in time at this meeting.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  That has been

 6     recorded on the transcript with what Mr. Seselj specified.

 7             Let's now give this exhibit a number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video will be Exhibit P743.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, after these events, did you still work for the

11     police?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you tell us, what were your tasks while working for the

14     police?

15        A.   For the first few days or a week after that, we started working

16     normally, but every patrol that went from our station had to be

17     accompanied by a man from Arkan's unit, so that I did not join those

18     patrols with those men, but I stayed in the station and engaged in my

19     normal duties, the duties I had as a traffic policeman.

20        Q.   Did you also have to provide escort to military units?

21        A.   This happened a couple of days later, maybe a week.  A military

22     column of armoured vehicles was passing from Sremska Raca towards

23     Bijeljina, and we had to ensure their crossing the bridge.  We had to

24     stop the traffic until that column crossed from Sremska Raca to Bosanska

25     Raca.

Page 13724

 1        Q.   Were you spending all the time in Bijeljina, or were you sent,

 2     also, to other locations?

 3        A.   In those days, I stayed in Bijeljina.

 4        Q.   Were you later on sent to another municipality?

 5        A.   This happened on the 2nd of May, 1992.  I was, you could say,

 6     mobilised rather than sent to Brcko.

 7        Q.   What was the situation in Brcko?  Can you shortly describe this?

 8        A.   When I received the call from my colleague who told me to tell

 9     me -- who told me that I had to report to the station, I couldn't notice

10     much, but when I reached the station, we were told that under full

11     war-time gear we had to prepare to go to Brcko.  We were transferred to

12     Brcko, and as we entered Brcko one could see that a conflict of a larger

13     scale had occurred than the one in Bijeljina.

14        Q.   What was the city looking like?  Can you describe this?

15        A.   The situation in Brcko was identical to the one in Bijeljina.

16     There were various armies, various units, paramilitary units, and all

17     I can say, that there was more damage to buildings than in Bijeljina, and

18     the scope of the fighting, the shooting, was far greater in Brcko than in

19     Bijeljina, so that one can say with certainty that there was a war on

20     already there.

21        Q.   Did you realise signs of looting?

22        A.   When we were called from Bijeljina, we were told that we just had

23     to go to Brcko in order to secure the buildings of importance.  However,

24     once we reached Brcko, everything had already been looted, at least for

25     the part of the town I was in, the department store in the center of

Page 13725

 1     town.  We came to secure that department store, but there was nothing

 2     left to guard, so we stayed in the center of town, and we were not

 3     involved in the fighting.

 4        Q.   Which paramilitary groups were in Brcko?  Did you see and

 5     recognise them?

 6        A.   I can say it was the same as in Bijeljina.  There were Arkan's

 7     men.  There were reservists, military reservists.  They were members by

 8     the clothing they wore.  They were units of Mr. Blagojevic, and there

 9     were others who were wearing mixed clothing.  They were volunteers.

10        Q.   When did you finish your service in Brcko, and where did you went

11     then?

12        A.   I finished - I can't say exactly - five or six days later, and I

13     returned to Bijeljina.  And after that, with the assistance of the head

14     of the department, I got a passport, and I left Bosnia-Herzegovina via

15     Serbia, and I went abroad.

16        Q.   When you returned to your duty station in Bijeljina, did you

17     become aware of a certain list?

18        A.   As I stayed in Bijeljina for some time more, I worked at various

19     check-points, primarily at Bosanska Raca.  I noticed that some colleagues

20     who had been working with me, when checking buses or private vehicles,

21     persons driving by, then he would take those persons to the container.

22     He would take something out of his pocket, read that, and then release

23     those people or keep them at Raca.  Later on, I found out from another

24     check-point that was behind us, at the approach to the bridge of Bosanska

25     Raca, a colleague from the reserves of our station, I saw this list.

Page 13726

 1     They didn't hide it from me, and an active-duty policeman did, and I saw

 2     that this was a list of persons of Muslim ethnicity from Bijeljina who

 3     were being looked for.

 4        Q.   What was the ethnicity of your colleagues who were using this

 5     list?

 6        A.   They were of Serb ethnicity.

 7        Q.   Did you have the feeling that they were trying to hide this list

 8     from you?

 9        A.   Yes.  A couple of times, I asked him why he was taking these

10     people to the container, what was he checking, is there a list, and he

11     said, No, there's no list; you don't have to know about it.  So he never

12     allowed me to see this list.  But then these colleagues from the

13     reserves, they didn't hide some things from me, and it is thanks to them

14     that I could see what was going on, and he told me, Look at this list;

15     they are your Muslims that we're looking for.

16        Q.   Do you know if the Muslim villages which surround Bijeljina, did

17     the inhabitants have to declare something to the authorities in power at

18     that time?

19        A.   As far as I know, the villages within the municipality of

20     Ugljevik were, in those days, I can't say forced, but they were given a

21     dead-line to choose whether they would declare loyalty to the Serb

22     authorities or sign something.  I don't know whether that document

23     exists, but I learned later from the locals that they did sign this

24     loyalty and they were promised that they would not be attacked and that

25     nothing would happen to them.

Page 13727

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Sorry.  Mr. Registrar, could we please see the

 2     document 65 ter number 1138 on the monitor.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You must ask him the question,

 4     and then you have to stop because you no longer have any time left.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is my last question, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   It's very hard to read, but, Mr. Witness, do you know this

 7     document, and can you tell us what it is about?

 8        A.   I think it is this signing or expression of loyalty in agreement

 9     with the Serb side regarding the loyalty of these villages.  As far as I

10     am able to see, they are villages in Ugljevik municipality:  Janjari,

11     Teocak.  And this is signed by Mr. Vinko from Ugljevik.  I think he was

12     the President; I'm not quite sure.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecutor, the text that we

14     see here, which is a report by Vinko Lazic to the minister, apparently

15     Stanisic, is in fact an answer to a telegram that Stanisic sent on the

16     18th of April, 1992.  So the OTP, which is made up of competent people,

17     well, have you taken care to make sure that you have that telegram in

18     your possession?

19             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I cannot tell you.  I have to search.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you understand, you offer

21     into evidence a document that reports what is going on in the villages,

22     but of course it would be very interesting to know what the request

23     expressed to Lazic was in respect of the populations in those

24     surroundings.  Was it -- was the purpose to ask for a report on the

25     political situation or the health situation or the social situation?  I

Page 13728

 1     don't know.  I don't know.  This is basic groundwork.  When you're a

 2     Prosecutor, you have evidence.  You verify where the evidence comes from.

 3     If it's an answer to a telegram, well, we look for the telegram.

 4             Anyway, well, you don't know.  Okay.  Ask your question.

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This was my last question.  The question I asked

 6     to Your Honours is to move this document into evidence, and I can give

 7     you additional information.  This document was -- got the Exhibit 420,

 8     tab 6, in Milosevic.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mussemeyer, just to follow up on what the

10     Presiding Judge just proposed to you, I would like you to explain to the

11     Court, if you really wish to have this document entered into evidence, to

12     explain to the Court what it is supposed to document.  What are we to

13     conclude from the facts that the Serbian authorities have received

14     loyalty declarations from the civilian population in some of these

15     villages and cities?  What's the impact of that?  What is it that you

16     want to show?

17             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I want to show that they did not do this

18     voluntarily, wanted to stay, either had the choice to leave the area --

19     the persons who were asked to do this either had to choice to leave the

20     area or to sign this document, and this describes how the situation was

21     at that time.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But the document doesn't say so.

23             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The document says that there existed solidarity

24     declarations from certain municipalities surrounding Bijeljina.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, but there is no suggestion made in the

Page 13729

 1     document to show that these people would be forced or intimidated if they

 2     didn't sign the loyalty declarations.

 3             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  This is what I wanted to have the witness

 4     explain to us because the document alone doesn't show all to us, and I

 5     wanted to have the witness comment on this, and I think he did this.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Thanks.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Judges, what you could

 8     read in English cannot be made out in the Serbian original by a single

 9     living soul.  What about the first portion of the English?  Is the

10     reconstruction of the Serbian original accurate?  It is really not

11     something that I can say.  But what you have in part 2 underneath the

12     alleged signature of Vinko Lazic, concerning the belfry, this is

13     something that I cannot see in the Serbian original.  It is simply not

14     there.  It does not exist.  The methodology employed by the Prosecutor

15     may be allowed and fair game in other trials, but I hope that you will

16     put a stop to this practice.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Mussemeyer, you're

18     referring to exhibits that were tendered in the Milosevic case.  The

19     Milosevic case ended -- as in the circumstances, we all know there was no

20     judgement, so by definition, everything tendered in that such case

21     according to us is of no value.  This must absolutely be said.

22             Now, regarding this document, I saw the English translation, of

23     course.  It's a full translation, whereas the B/C/S document is hardly

24     legible.  So I wondered whether a translation was made from the original

25     copy, and then they scrutinised and tried to reconstruct it somehow.  I'm

Page 13730

 1     quite surprised because there's mention of Zvornik, where it says that

 2     the chief -- SJB Chief Mijic reported there was no shooting, that the

 3     city is under the control of Serbian police and members of the reserve

 4     forces of the TO.  I really don't see where that is on the B/C/S version.

 5     What does this mean?  What kind of work is this?

 6             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honour, this document is addressed to

 7     Mr. Stanisic.  Mr. Stanisic had a certain position in Serbia, and we

 8     think that this is a part of proof that there existed a JCE, a JCE from

 9     other members who --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's not the point.  That's

11     not my question.  My question is the following:  How did you manage to

12     have an English translation out of a document that is hardly legible?

13     And, secondly, we can't even read "Zvornik" on this document in B/C/S, so

14     where does this come from?  Where does all this come from?  It's not

15     because some people were very easy when it came to documents that I'll be

16     easy too, you know.  I want to be very strict about the exhibits and the

17     evidence.  Evidence is essential, so all documents presented must be

18     carefully scrutinised.  We have to take a look at whether it's reliable,

19     look at all the indicia of reliability, its authenticity and so forth.

20     No person, you know, with any common sense can say that Zvornik is

21     mentioned on this document.

22             Mr. Mundis.

23             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             I have requested that we get the best copy available of this

25     document from the Evidence Unit, and perhaps before we spend any more

Page 13731

 1     valuable time discussing that, we can return to this perhaps after the

 2     next break if we're able to get the document that quickly, and we'll then

 3     be in a better position to perhaps review the actual either original or,

 4     if that's not in our possession, the best copy that we have in the

 5     evidence vault.  So --

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So no number will

 7     be given to this exhibit at the moment.  No, let's give it an MFI number.

 8             Mr. Registrar, could we have an MFI number?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  What Mr. Mussemeyer

10     just said a while ago is monstrous.  He said the document was addressed

11     to Mr. Stanisic, who had an important position in Serbia.  Mr. Mussemeyer

12     is here alluding to Jovica Stanisic, who was head of the State Security

13     Service in Serbia.  He says that this, for him, proves the joint criminal

14     enterprise.  But what follows from all of that is that the document was

15     sent to the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska, Mico Stanisic,

16     who happens to share Jovica Stanisic's surname by pure accident, although

17     they are not related at all.  This is an insinuation that begs belief.

18     Of course, it says "Minister," but Mr. Mussemeyer does not repeat

19     "Minister."  He says Mr. Stanisic, who in Serbia, as opposed to Republika

20     Srpska, happens to be holding an important position.  I think this has

21     grown out of all proportion.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, which Stanisic

23     are we talking about?  Is it the Stanisic of the Serbian Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina or the Stanisic in the security services of the

25     Republic of Serbia?  Obviously, there are two Stanisics.

Page 13732

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I'm sorry.  I cannot give you an

 2     exact answer.  I see the name "Stanisic" here, and I combined with

 3     Stanisic, the chief of the secret service in Serbia.  If this is an

 4     error, I apologise, but this was my understanding of this document.  It

 5     might be that Mr. Seselj's remark is true or is correct.  I cannot give

 6     you a clear answer to this.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mussemeyer, I believe that

 8     if the OTP was doing perfect investigations, it would have checked about

 9     the telegram.  You know, this is 01-50/2.  That way we would know it

10     comes -- from which Stanisic it comes, there would be no problem because

11     if it's a telegram that comes from the Stanisic who is the Minister of

12     Interior for the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, it would be very

13     different than if it was from the other Stanisic in Serbia.  But you

14     should have done this groundwork earlier.  So it's not because it was

15     tendered in the Milosevic case, where they maybe have other things to do

16     and other things to worry, that we're going to, you know, follow exactly

17     what you're saying and give you numbers when you're asking for numbers.

18             I believe Mr. Mundis is going to check on this document.

19     Theoretically, you have it in the evidence vault, and you might have a

20     copy that is more legible.  The whole mystery is around Zvornik because

21     we really can't see "Zvornik."  Maybe it's on the reverse side of this

22     document, but we need to have the original.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something else?  May I

24     please add something?

25             When I look at the English translation, Mr. Mussemeyer should see

Page 13733

 1     that it reads loud and clear.  The document is being sent to the

 2     Ministry, the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

 3     and Herzegovina, and then the next line reads:

 4             "To Minister Mr. Stanisic."

 5             There is no room there for any ambivalence.  There is no room for

 6     Mr. Mussemeyer to hypothesise that this might indeed be the Mr. Stanisic

 7     who happens to be head of the State Security Service in Serbia.  This is

 8     a insinuation, pure and proper, and the Prosecutor should well be

 9     punished for contempt of court because of this.  I'm the only one being

10     hauled over the coals for contempt of court here, it seems, and I assure

11     you that over the last one and a half years, the Prosecutors have been

12     far guiltier of that particular crime than I have.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, it's

14     not because the OTP didn't do perfect work on this document that you have

15     to blame it for everything and anything.  Let's wait and see.  Let's wait

16     and see the original document.  Right now, we're totally in the dark,

17     can't see anything.

18             But we'll give it an MFI number for the moment, Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document will be MFI P744.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The

21     examination-in-chief is finished.

22             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.

23             Just a minute.  My fellow Judge has a question.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just before the floor is given to Mr. Seselj, I'd

25     like the witness to clarify one piece of information you gave during the

Page 13734

 1     examination-in-chief; namely, in respect of the people who took part in

 2     the fighting and in the looting afterwards of some of the villages in

 3     your area.

 4             If I recall correctly, you said that there were, of course, JNA

 5     forces involved; there were the reservists; sometimes there would be

 6     members of the local TOs; then there would be Arkan's men and perhaps

 7     other volunteers; and then - and this is what interests me - then you

 8     seem to suggest that there was, on top of all of that or, rather, in the

 9     tail of all of that, a hoard of criminals who simply were not controlled

10     by anyone and who were just fortune-hunters who sometimes were around,

11     but they were acting completely independently and under no control of

12     anyone.  Is that correctly understood?  Was there such a tail of

13     criminals following the events who sort of committed crimes on top of

14     everything else?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  All I can say

16     is about Brcko, there were units that were involved in combat along the

17     front-line, so to speak.  They fought the Muslims and the Serbs, and then

18     there was everything that was going on in the background - what shall I

19     call them - the unattached individuals.  I'm not sure if they were

20     organised or not, but they were just walking about town, carrying a

21     rifle.  No one knows which unit they belonged to.  You're free to take

22     anything you like from wherever, and nobody's standing in your way.  I

23     can't say that they were organised.  For the most part, I think they were

24     loose cannons, unattached.  They would simply blend with the army, and

25     then the soldiers would go to the front-line; these people would remain

Page 13735

 1     behind to pick up whatever they needed.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This is interesting.  And my question to you is,

 3     then:  Do you know if anything was done to try and control this, to

 4     prevent people from looting or to seek to control these gangs of

 5     criminals, or were they just accepted and left alone?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm talking about Brcko.

 7     There was more looting there than in Bijeljina.  There were situations

 8     where there was a trail of people following the soldiers, and they would,

 9     for example, pick up a vehicle from someone's private garage.  They would

10     switch on the ignition and drive off to Bijeljina or to Serbia.  They

11     would go there, sell the vehicle there, and then go back for more, and

12     they functioned like that throughout.  When you had situations such as

13     these, the police working in the Bijeljina area tried to put things back

14     under control to some degree, but it was very difficult.  When you see

15     something from someone, this same item is then returned to that person

16     the following day.  The police were facing difficult conditions in the

17     area because all of those people were invariably armed.  It was easy to

18     get hurt if you clashed with them directly, so people just tended to let

19     them go on like that because it was pointless.  You take it back from

20     them, and the item is then returned to them the following day anyway.  It

21     became a matter of person safety as well.  It was far better to let go

22     and let them get on with it, lest you, too, should get hurt.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, following this question

25     put to you by Judge Harhoff and your answer, I need clarification.

Page 13736

 1             Could you tell us, what was Arkan's position in relation to these

 2     criminal gangs?  Was he the chief, controlling them, and therefore he

 3     would also have been responsible for the looting, or was he just unable

 4     to control these gangs?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he, too, was unable to

 6     control them.  They were not under his control.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This topic is really at the

 9     heart of our matter.  So this notorious Arkan, could you tell us as far

10     as you know whether he also looted and stole?  Could you tell us whether

11     he was fighting a military type of war, or was he very opportunistic,

12     also, taking advantage of the situation to plunder what was there to

13     take, for him as well as for his soldiers?  What opinion do you have on

14     this?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Arkan, as far as I know, as

16     far as I could find out in my professional capacity, I know that Arkan

17     always came on someone's orders, and there was always a monetary reward

18     at stake.  As far as I could tell, at the outset he personally was not

19     interested whether he would take someone's money or someone's jewellery

20     or someone's car.  What I can say, though, is that his men, those who

21     stayed behind following Arkan's withdrawal or the withdrawal of his

22     command, were the ones who were seizing other people's goods and

23     property.  Quite simply, these were scattered individuals remaining in

24     the area who pretended to be instructors or organisers.  They would go

25     into people's homes.  They would seize people's houses, vehicles, even

Page 13737

 1     official police vehicles.  They would just come by, take our car, smash

 2     up the car, cause an accident, leave the scene, go take a different car,

 3     and just go on like that.

 4             I can't say specifically in relation to Mr. Arkan.  I didn't see

 5     that, but at the time his men who were in the area, I didn't see them

 6     take or seize anything, specifically, but later on it was also the case

 7     that his men, too, those who stayed behind in the area, did engage in

 8     these activities.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Just a few minutes

10     away from the break, so I will take this opportunity to read an oral

11     decision, and then we'll have the break, and Mr. Seselj will start his

12     cross-examination after the break.

13             It is an oral decision on the admission of exhibits after the

14     testimony of expert Strinovic.

15             During the hearing of November 11, 2008, when the Prosecution

16     asked for documents to be tendered, two documents obtained an MFI number

17     until the end of the cross-examination of this expert:  Document MFI P609

18     first, corresponding to the expert report written by Davor Strinovic,

19     prepared for this case and sent to the Prosecution on May 26, 2008;

20     secondly, document MFI P610, corresponding to the expert report drafted

21     by Davor Strinovic on January 17, 2003, which had been admitted in the

22     Milosevic case and the Mrksic case.

23             The Trial Chamber notes that the accused raised no objection when

24     these two documents were tendered.  Given the testimony of Expert

25     Strinovic, the Trial Chamber believes that his report prepared for this

Page 13738

 1     case can be admitted into evidence under P 609.  The Trial Chamber

 2     notably rejects for lack of relevance, according to Rule 89(C), the

 3     admission of document MFI P610, the report prepared for other cases.

 4             In a nutshell, through this decision we admit Strinovic's report,

 5     formerly P 609 MFI, and the Trial Chamber rejects the other report, which

 6     had been admitted into evidence in the other cases.

 7             This is now on the record.

 8             Let's break for 20 minutes.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 9.52 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.14 a.m.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, have you found this

12     document?

13             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honours, apparently the document was, in fact,

14     tendered into evidence in the Milosevic case, and as a result of that the

15     best copy or the original - whether it's the original or a scanned

16     print-out - is with the Registry.  We are providing them the Milosevic

17     exhibit number to the Registry officer, who will apparently be making

18     attempts to obtain the original.  It's no longer in the OTP's possession

19     in the Evidence Unit but, rather, is with the Registry as an admitted

20     exhibit in that case.  So steps are being taken to retrieve that

21     document, and perhaps Mr. Registrar would be in a better position than

22     myself to inform the Chamber as to how much time would be required in

23     order to get the document.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             Now, regarding the video-clip, Mr. Mussemeyer.

Page 13739

 1             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honour, could you repeat the question?

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Mr. Mussemeyer, this

 3     video-clip where we see Mrs. Plavsic's arrival, and she's kissing

 4     Mr. Arkan on the cheek, have you found this video?

 5             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I didn't find it.  I sent an e-mail to the

 6     person who normally is helping me preparing these clips, but I didn't get

 7     an answer.  I said she should answer urgently.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor for your cross-examination.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

11        Q.   Sir, VS-1035, you have so far provided three statements to the

12     OTP?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The first subject was 19 -- the first was taken in 1997, the next

15     one in 2001, and the last one in 2008?

16        A.   Yes, something like that.

17        Q.   Each of these three times, you clearly informed the Prosecutor

18     that you were speaking the Bosnian language; right?

19        A.   Yes, Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian.

20        Q.   Please, you said "Bosnian" here.  Please, let's not mix things

21     up.

22        A.   All right, then.

23        Q.   That's in all three of your statements.  I'm not attacking you.

24     I'm just stating facts.  Please, don't get defensive on me right away

25     because there is no need for that, or at least not for the time being.

Page 13740

 1             In 1997, you said you were a Bosnian by ethnicity, a Muslim by

 2     religion, and your languages were Bosnian and German.  You repeat the

 3     same thing in 2001:  the language used and spoken, Bosnian and German.

 4     Fast-forward to 2008:  languages spoken, Bosnian and German; right?

 5        A.   Right.

 6        Q.   The last time the Prosecutor spoke to you was in the 2nd of

 7     September, 2008.  You signed the statement that they drew up for you.

 8     The 28th of October, the Prosecution submitted a motion to this Trial

 9     Chamber for your statement to be admitted as a 92 bis/ter statement.

10     That is what they told you as well; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   There's a document attached.  On page 2 of this document,

13     paragraph 6, the Prosecutor says:

14             "As provided for by Rule 92 ter, the witness will confirm that

15     his statement is authentic and true and that he signed the statement in

16     the Croatian language."

17             Does that strike you as slightly strange?

18        A.   Indeed, it does.

19        Q.   You say Bosnian.  You call it whatever you like.  You are

20     perfectly entitled to.  I'm not challenging that.  But how did this come

21     about, the Prosecutor setting the record straight on your behalf, saying

22     you read the statement and signed the statement in the Croatian language?

23     Do you have an explanation for that?

24        A.   I'm not sure how the confusion came about, Croatian.  Mr. Seselj,

25     I can tell you Croatian-Bosnian-Serbian for me is the official language

Page 13741

 1     of the former Yugoslavia, and I think it's more or less the same thing.

 2     The language I use is a mixture of all.

 3        Q.   Sir, sir, that's not what I'm asking you.  I'm not trying to get

 4     into a linguistic debate with you now.  You are a police officer, an

 5     experienced one.  I suppose you're more than qualified for your work.

 6     There is no need for you to be qualified in full linguistic matters.

 7     It's not a linguistic debate that I'm engaging in with you.  What I'm

 8     putting to you is that you told the Prosecution three times that you

 9     spoke the Bosnian language, yet the Prosecution decided to correct you by

10     stating that you read and signed the statement in the Croatian language.

11     Was that something that they did unbeknownst to you?

12        A.   I don't believe that it was unbeknownst to me.  Maybe I wasn't

13     keeping track, myself.

14        Q.   You didn't see the document, yourself, did you?  It was something

15     that the Prosecutor drew up and submitted to the Court?

16        A.   I don't know that.

17        Q.   You don't know.  Okay.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I invite you to view that

19     document, 20th of October, 2008, page 2, paragraph 6.  This is not the

20     first time, and this is not an accident.  This is not a simple error that

21     slipped through the cracks, as it were.  This is an inclination displayed

22     by the Court and the Tribunal as a whole.  Everything is translated into

23     Croatian.  Ever since the Tribunal first came into existence, look at how

24     many jobs they gave to Croats; the Registry, the OTP, and so on and so

25     forth, and what the breakdown would be for all the other ethnicities,

Page 13742

 1     Serbs, Muslims, Macedonians.  This is something that blows the cover on

 2     the true nature of The Hague Tribunal, and that is why this is my

 3     introductory question.

 4        Q.   And now, there is something that I find surprising in your

 5     statement, and this is something that you repeated in chief.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. Mussemeyer.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. Seselj, I don't want to interrupt your

 8     cross-examination, but I may shed some light on this.  The reason that

 9     there is written Croatian language is that the language assistant we had

10     us is of Croatian origin, and she said, I can only certify Croatian

11     language.  This is the reason for the confusion which might appear.

12     Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Mr. Seselj, I

14     can't find trace of what you're saying.  You're saying on page 2,

15     paragraph 6?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 28th of October,

17     2008.  You should have that in e-court.  The OTP submitted a motion to

18     you for admitting this witness's written statement pursuant to

19     Rule 92 ter.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I found it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you look at that OTP document,

22     page 2, paragraph 6 specifically, it reads:

23             "The Croatian language."

24             Now, what rights do the translators of this Tribunal have,

25     including the OTP because the OTP is part of the Tribunal.  If there is a

Page 13743

 1     witness who claims he speaks Bosnian, he's then corrected by saying that

 2     the language is actually Croatian.  What sort of a right are we looking

 3     at?  Is that because the translator is a Croat, a Croatian lady?  Why

 4     don't you fire that translator, let alone the fact that you've been

 5     harassing me for a year and a half by having to listen to interpreters

 6     who speak a very distorted version of the Serbian language, and they now

 7     call it Croatian.  But if there is a witness who claims he speaks

 8     Bosnian, then his will must be respected.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you signed this

10     document with Ms. Dahl.  This must have escaped you.  But on paragraph 6,

11     obviously the person who drafted the document said that this is signed in

12     Croatian.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I don't think the

14     interpreters should be laughing while interpreting into the Serbian

15     language for me.  Let them assume a normal tone of voice and not giggle.

16     I don't think it's a good idea for interpreter to be laughing along as

17     they are interpreting.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me remind the interpreters

19     because it's not the first time we have a problem of the kind.  The

20     interpreter at all times must be extremely neutral and because of this

21     must express nothing through his voice, neither laughter or anything.

22             Now, this being said, Mr. Mundis, you signed this document.  This

23     must have escaped you.  The person who drafted the document says that it

24     was signed in the Croatian language, whereas in the statement what is

25     written is that it was in Bosnian, in the Bosnian language.  It may --

Page 13744

 1     probably an error.  What happened exactly?  Could you tell us?

 2             MR. MUNDIS:  I'm not in a position at this moment to do so, Your

 3     Honours, but I will take a look at this and see what I can determine with

 4     respect to what's written in the motion.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  In the statement, which

 6     was at first a 92 ter statement dated September 2nd, 2008, at the very

 7     end of this statement, in the certification paragraphs, the person

 8     involved does say that he speaks and understands Bosnian, the Bosnian

 9     language, and this is what should have been written in the certification,

10     "Bosnian language," and not "Croatian language."

11             MR. MUNDIS:  That would be a minor typographical error in the

12     motion, Mr. President.  I'm not going to get into the semantics or a

13     discussion on the differences between the Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian

14     languages.  If the Chamber would find it helpful, we can certainly get

15     someone from CLSS who can make more authoritative comments on that.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             Mr. Seselj, continue.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   At the beginning of your statement and also at the beginning of

20     the examination-in-chief, paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that in

21     1991 you were on vacation at the Plitnice Lakes and that you already

22     noticed that the Serbian people were holding nationalist rallies, that

23     the barracks had started, and so on.  Is that so?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   But what I'm surprised by here is the one-sided approach.  I

Page 13745

 1     assume you're a person who wants to convey the truth and to be objective.

 2     There's no mention here that a year prior to this, Franjo Tudjman came

 3     into power, and for decades he was known as the main protagonist of

 4     Croatian nationalism and the Ustasha movement.  He was even imprisoned on

 5     these charges.  You must be aware of that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you must have seen on television, in the press, that as soon

 8     as Tudjman came to power, Croatia was at a very fast rate introducing

 9     Ustasha --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Hold on, Mr. Seselj.  You will

11     continue, but let's put the original document on the ELMO so that we will

12     fully understand the problem.  There are two pages to this document.

13     Could we please have them on the ELMO.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that this will not be at the

15     expense of my time.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Don't worry.  This is not taken

17     out of your time.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is the first page, and it

20     is more legible than what we had earlier on the screen.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you can see that the

22     addition is not there.  The document can be read now.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The rest is still to come.

24     Here it is, second page.  This is the second page.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the second page is

Page 13746

 1     not the same as the addition on the first page.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Page 2 seems to be an

 3     attachment to page 1.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on a minute.  Mr. Usher, if you put the

 5     first page back and move the view down towards the bottom of the page,

 6     I think I saw a handwritten annotation.  There we go.  Move it up,

 7     further up.  That is the addition I think Mr. Seselj was making reference

 8     to.  What does it say there?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this just an indication:  "Our

10     telephone in the duty room ..." is such and such, and the number of the

11     telephone is given.  This is not the addition.  This second page cannot

12     be an annex to the first document.  The first document was signed by

13     Vinko Lazic, and the second document is signed by Miodrag Jesuric, and

14     those two documents are not linked together.  Even the stamps differ, as

15     you can see.  This is the chief of the Security Service Centre, Jesuric,

16     and this is the chief of the municipal police - I can't see the stamp

17     properly - Lazic, Vinko.  These two documents are not related at all, and

18     let me add that the addition that we saw before is not here.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Usher, could you

20     bring back these documents and show them to the Judges, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Chamber

23     ascertains the following thing:  There's a different stamp on page 2, and

24     the signature on the first -- on the second document is not the same as

25     on the first document.  So it would seem that the English translation has

Page 13747

 1     taken the second document, summarising what happened in Zvornik, and put

 2     it on the first page.  If you look at the English translation on the

 3     e-court system -- Registrar --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, that is not

 5     right.  No, Mr. President.  You see this second document, you see what a

 6     lengthy text there is on Zvornik, and in the translation of the first

 7     document, there's very brief reference to Zvornik of only one sentence.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Exactly.  That's why I said

 9     they summarised matters.

10             So we'll give the Zvornik text to the witness and ask the witness

11     to read it out so that we can find out what was said about Zvornik.

12     Could you give the second page to the witness, please, and the witness

13     will read out what is said about Zvornik.

14             Witness, you can see the title "Zvornik."  Could you please read

15     this out in your own language?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Zvornik, by telephone with the

17     chief of the SMB Zvornik, Milenko Mijic:  I received the following

18     security information.  There is no shooting.  The town is covered and

19     under the control of the Serb police and members of the reserve of the

20     TO.  The town is being cleared up, and efforts are being made to bring

21     life back to normal in the town, but the assessment is that it is not

22     totally safe that would enable full normalisation of life.  Among the

23     public institutions, the hospital is working; the judiciary is

24     operational, except for the magistrates courts; and economic and public

25     life is under the control of the government of the Serbian Municipality

Page 13748

 1     of Zvornik."

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you, Witness.

 3     So quite clearly, the English translation took up the beginning of the

 4     paragraph on Zvornik concerning the fact that there is no shooting, that

 5     the town is under the control of the Serb police and the reservists of

 6     the TO.

 7             On the other hand, the document that has just been read was not

 8     written by Lazic, Vinko, which means, Mr. Mundis, that in professional

 9     terms, there are some reservations to be made about using this document,

10     a document that appears to come from two different authors, and the first

11     document has an English translation.  It in fact takes up what is in the

12     second document.  That's all we can say about this at this stage.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's something else,

14     Mr. President.  We don't have the date of the second document at all

15     because if the situation is calm in Zvornik, this could have been only

16     after July, when the Special Police of Republika Srpska arrested and

17     disarmed members of paramilitary units.  So it cannot be said that the

18     situation was calm until the beginning of August 1992 when these gangs

19     were disarmed.  So the dates of the two documents are not the same for

20     one to be able to link them together.  It is not possible for the date to

21     be the same.  We have no indication of the date.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Yes, what you are

23     saying has been put on record.  Let's give these documents back to the

24     Registrar.  Mr. Usher, go and get the second page from the witness

25     because, after all, you're the guardian of these documents.

Page 13749

 1             Thank you very much, Witness, for contributing to this by reading

 2     out the second page.

 3             Mr. Seselj, you can go on.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   As I was saying, you surely remembered that as soon as he came

 6     into power, Tudjman started introducing Ustasha symbols, promoted Ustasha

 7     ideology, and formed the illegal national guards?

 8        A.   That he did form certain guards is something I am aware of, but

 9     as for symbols, I cannot confirm.  I can't say that the police started

10     wearing the chequer-board insignia, but I can say that this was an

11     Ustasha symbol.

12        Q.   Very well.  We won't go into the details.  Let me ask you one

13     thing that you must remember.

14             Do you remember a deputy in the Croatian Assembly who took the

15     floor, and at the end of his speech, a very firey, nationalist speech, he

16     made the Ustasha greeting or the Nazi greeting to all those present in

17     the Assembly; do you remember that?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19        Q.   Very well, if you don't.  Then you also speak here of the

20     situation which deteriorated after the incident of the Muslim-Serb

21     village not far from Datunac [phoen].  Are you referring to Datunac on

22     the Drina?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   But that's quite away from Bijeljina, isn't it?

25        A.   Well, not that far away, some 50 kilometres.

Page 13750

 1        Q.   But it's more than an hour's drive from Bijeljina?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When you heard that two Serb policemen were talking on the radio

 4     link and apparently saying that the Muslims and Croats in Bosnia would

 5     have the same fate, why didn't you write a written report on what you

 6     heard?  Surely, it was your duty to report to your superior, and did you

 7     do that?  It is too big an issue for you to inform orally.

 8        A.   I didn't report this to anyone, nor did I say that.  This

 9     conversation must have been heard by the duty officer in the station, the

10     people at the exchange, and all the colleagues who were working on that

11     canal.  It was not my duty to report this.

12        Q.   How come, as a policeman, that it was not your duty?  Surely,

13     this is something affecting state security, and your priority, as a

14     traffic policeman, if you come across something affecting state security,

15     to immediately inform the competent institution.  This should be done by

16     every citizen, not to mention by state employees, a policeman; am I

17     right?

18        A.   Yes, one should have reported these things, but at the time this

19     conversation was heard, there was no point reporting it to anyone because

20     the person you would report it to had already heard it and he wouldn't

21     have done anything about it.

22        Q.   You have no evidence that anyone else heard it except you; you're

23     just assuming that someone else must have heard it as well?

24        A.   Yes, he must have heard it because all the patrols in the Tuzla

25     region, for instance, who were on the same canal with us, so that someone

Page 13751

 1     in that region must have heard it, too, and many colleagues did hear it.

 2     They had to hear it because the radio station in the car is always

 3     switched on.

 4        Q.   I agree they should have heard it, but there's no evidence that

 5     they really did hear it?

 6        A.   Yes.  Just like me, nobody reported anything.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.  You said here that you were sent to

 8     assist, together with some other policemen, to Bosanski Samac, and I was

 9     surprised by one thing.  You say that you Muslims took off your caps with

10     the five-cornered stars and you wore some other caps, whereas the Serbs

11     insisted on wearing the caps with the five-cornered star simply to

12     provoke the Croats.  This is in your last statement; is that true?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   But surely, the five-cornered star was still an official symbol.

15     Is that true too?

16        A.   Yes, it is true, but all I can tell you, that in that situation

17     and in that place where we were at the time, it was highly risky to wear

18     a five-cornered star because life was not normal, as it was in Bijeljina

19     or in Brcko in those days.  Over there, the tension was high.  There was

20     intolerance on the Croatian side.  I must tell you I was exposed to

21     danger by the Croatian Army.

22        Q.   Let us assume that we are two policemen, I'm a Serb and you're a

23     Muslim, and both of us are officially obliged to wear the red star on our

24     caps; this hadn't been changed yet.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I must stop you,

Page 13752

 1     I'm afraid.  I need to broach another question.

 2             The OTP has just informed me that the next witness, and I won't

 3     give his name because this is a protected witness -- well, let me go into

 4     private session, please, Registrar.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13753











11 Page 13753 redacted. Private session.















Page 13754

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're now in open session.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Sir, Mr. VS-1035, I gave you an example.  Imagine the two of us

21     are two police officers.  I'm a Serb; you're a Muslim.  We work at the

22     same police station.  We wear the same official uniform.  All right.

23     We're off on a mission to a different municipality where the situation is

24     rather difficult.  You remove the five-pointed star from your cap.  I

25     continue to wear the five-pointed star, it being an official symbol.  And

Page 13755

 1     then you talk about me and you say that I'm wearing this five-pointed

 2     star in order to taunt someone, and you remove yours in order to not

 3     taunt the local Croats.  Does this strike you as logical?  I'm wearing an

 4     official symbol.  How would I be taunting anyone in my line of duty in

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina?  I'm protecting public law and order, and as long

 6     as the rules don't change, I have no right at all to change that myself

 7     and remove the symbol, yet you do this yourself on your own urging and

 8     accuse me, on top of that, of taunting someone because I fail to remove

 9     this official symbol.  Does that strike you as logical?

10        A.   As far as the symbols are concerned, it's true that all over

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, police officers wore the same symbols.  In the case

12     of Bosanski Samac, we had been advised directly by the command of the

13     police station for people who went to do their job at the bridge, and I'm

14     talking about the bridge area specifically, to not wear these Tito caps,

15     the standard-issue police caps worn in emergency situations, in order to

16     avoid taunting the Croatian side, since the Croatian side demanded that

17     we keep the flow of civilians and vehicles across the bridge unhindered.

18     So we had to do this for them to know that we were there to secure the

19     bridge and that we were not looking at anything.  Were we Serbs, were we

20     Muslims, were we wearing this cap or not, this was up to you.  You were

21     not banned from wearing it.  You were not banned from removing it.  If

22     you're a shift leader at that bridge, your duty was to inform the

23     colleagues who were wearing those caps about the reasons why they had to

24     remove their caps.

25        Q.   I don't understand anything you are telling me.  How can a

Page 13756

 1     commander give you an order to the effect that you should remove an

 2     official symbol from your cap?  I understand nothing at all, but let's

 3     just leave it at that.

 4             And now I may be saying this with my tongue firmly in my cheek

 5     when I say I understand nothing.  We all know that, but can we please now

 6     have a look at a document that was submitted to me by the OTP.  This is a

 7     public document.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  There is no need to keep it secret

 9     because it will in no way disclose the identity of this witness.

10             Can it please be placed on our screens?  It's the document that

11     I -- that I requested from the OTP.  I wanted a translation into English,

12     as well, but they don't seem to have it yet or whatever.  I think it

13     should be made public, though.

14        Q.   This document is not about you personally.  It has nothing to do

15     with you, but it pertains to the situation in Bijeljina, and that's why

16     we would like to comment on it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  We don't have it yet, do we?

18             Can the Registrar please provide copies for the Chamber.  There

19     it is.  I have it now.  I see it on my screen.  Let's go through this

20     together.  Can we just please get the image to be a bit clearer?  This is

21     somewhat blurry.

22        Q.   You see the header of this document?

23             May the Registrar please provide a copy for you so that you can

24     look at a hard copy in front of you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  If a hard copy can be made

Page 13757

 1     available for the witness, the Chamber and the OTP.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   You see here, if you look at the header, it reads:

 3             "SFRY, Yugoslavia, Federal Minister for All People's Defence,"

 4     the federal coat of arms of Yugoslavia, and then a text in three scripts

 5     languages:  Serbian, in both Cyrillic and Latin script; and then

 6     Macedonian and Slovenian; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   If you look at the signature line:

 9             "Chief of the JNA General Staff, Colonel-General Blagoje Adzic."

10     Is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If you go to the bottom, you see the official Registry number of

13     The Hague Tribunal, 0038-3374.  Can you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you see who this document is addressed to, Colonel

16     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, in person.  It doesn't say Zeljko.  It just

17     says Z. Raznatovic personally; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Pursuant to the law on the armed forces of the SFRY and

20     instructions on service in the armed forces of the SFRY, I hereby order,

21     1, 2, 3.  Can you please be so kind as to read what exactly Blagoje Adzic

22     is ordering Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please read it out slowly.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Number 1, start with number 1, and then we'll proceed.

Page 13758

 1        A.   "I hereby order:

 2             "1.  Make a breakthrough along the Bijeljina-Loznica-Visegrad

 3     line or axis by driving out the Muslim population, regardless of any

 4     casualties.

 5             "2.  Regardless of any casualties, take hold of all the strategic

 6     features.  If necessary, involve the units of Jovic, Vucarevic, Nikola

 7     Luic, as well as the Herzegovina and Drina Corps and the Uzice Corps.

 8             "3.  Before the action is launched, link up with Milisav Gagovic

 9     and Major-General Ratko Mladic.  Continue to operate in concert.  The

10     corps and garrison commanders in the areas affected by war operations and

11     mopping-up operations shall be under the command of Colonel Raznatovic

12     and shall be under the obligation of obeying his orders alone and no one

13     else's.  If necessary, General Mladic will see to any support that the

14     Tigers, the Wolves from Vucjak, and the White Eagles might need, as well

15     as any support for the air forces.  About this, get in touch directly

16     with General Ninkovic or Stevanovic and Bajic."

17        Q.   Can you please read what the stamp says?  It reads:

18             "Federal Secretariat for All People's Defence, Political

19     Administration."  Right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   All right, sir.  You're an experienced police officer.  Doesn't

22     it appear to you at first sight that this document is a clumsy example of

23     forgery?

24        A.   I can only tell you about this document and specifically the

25     orders in it.  Not a single one bears a stamp in the upper left corner.

Page 13759

 1     Not a single institution is named there in the former Yugoslavia because

 2     this is a stamp.  This stamp reads:  "Political Administration," and

 3     frankly, if that's what it says, it should instead read "Federal

 4     Secretariat for All People's Defence of the SFRY" or, for example, "All

 5     People's Defence Ministry Political Administration," I'm unfamiliar with

 6     that.  I think this is a case of forgery.

 7        Q.   Well, there you go.  Thank you.  Let's try and go through this

 8     document together.  You provided all of my answers already, but if you

 9     look at the header up there, it reads:

10             "Federal Secretary for All People's Defence."

11             You're a police officer.  You completed your secondary schooling.

12     You're educated enough to know that the federal secretary was also the

13     defence minister; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   A member of the federal government.  That's the Defence Ministry?

16        A.   Right.

17        Q.   And yet you know that there's the JNA General Staff, right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the General Staff of the JNA is subordinated to the

20     Presidency of the SFRY; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Back in 1987, the JNA General Staff was now made into the General

23     Staff of the armed forces; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And it remained under the command of the Presidency of the SFRY?

Page 13760

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   As an experienced police officer, do you realise that there is no

 3     date here?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   There is no protocol marking here, right, and the rule had to be

 6     there, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So this is a document produced by the general secretary,

 9     allegedly.  In that case, it should be signed by the federal secretary,

10     Veljko Kadijevic, or the federal minister, right, not Blagoje Adzic;

11     right?  Right?

12        A.   Yes, right.

13        Q.   If this is a document produced by the General Staff of the armed

14     forces, in that case the header should read:  "General Staff," and there

15     should be a stamp there, the General Staff stamp, and not the Political

16     Administration of the Federal Secretary or Federal Secretariat; right?

17     If this had been signed by the Federal Secretariat, there would have been

18     a stamp there of the Federal Secretariat for All People's Defence, the

19     secretary's cabinet; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   This political administration is one of the several

22     administrations comprised by the Federal Secretariat; there was Political

23     Administration, Personnel Administration, Security Administration a

24     Quarter-Master's Administration, and so on and so forth; am I right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13761

 1        Q.   Okay.  So is this such a stupid case of forgery that we're all

 2     simply stunned by it?

 3        A.   I can only repeat this:  The header in the upper left corner is

 4     certainly no original.  Any order from the General Staff,

 5     Colonel-General Adzic, or the federal secretary can -- no order can read

 6     "Federal Secretary."  It has to be "Federal Secretariat for All People's

 7     Defence," and then if it's in reference to the federal secretary, then it

 8     would be "Federal Secretary for All People's Defence."  And then lower

 9     down it would be "Pursuant to the law on the armed forces of the SFRY,"

10     and then the appropriate paragraph, a reference to the appropriate law,

11     what paragraph of that law.

12        Q.   And the instructions and service, right, the appropriate

13     paragraph?

14        A.   Yes, and the protocol number under which the order was filed

15     because each order is filed into the protocol book of orders, right?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Judges, here is

17     evidence for you of the kind of forgery produced and resorted to by the

18     OTP.  This document was served on me several years ago, and it is

19     something that is supposed to be in support of the consolidated

20     indictment against me.  Is this sufficient for you to charge the

21     Prosecutor with contempt of court?  I don't know.  That is up to you to

22     judge.  But here is a plain example of the sort of forgery that the OTP

23     are resorting to.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, I'm seeing this

25     document for the first time of my life, the first time we see this

Page 13762

 1     document.  It must have been disclosed under the different rules in the

 2     regulation that ruled disclosure.  Now, if this is a forgery, how is it

 3     that the OTP had this document and didn't check into it?  Maybe you don't

 4     know anything about this document and you're discovering it for the first

 5     time, just like me.

 6             MR. MUNDIS:  We will determine where we obtained the document

 7     from and inform the Trial Chamber accordingly.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9             Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Fine.  Let us move on to the specifics of your written statement

12     and your examination-in-chief.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, despite the fact

14     that this document might be a forgery, I still note that it would have

15     been the JNA that would have conducted the action against Bijeljina, that

16     Colonel Arkan, whose rank was colonel, obviously, and he was in charge of

17     heading this operation.

18             Furthermore, General Mladic could, if need be, provide support to

19     the Tigers, the White Eagles, the Grey Wolves, and I note that the

20     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party are also mentioned as well as

21     other volunteers.  This is what the document is all about.

22             Now, it's up to the Prosecution to find how it came up with this

23     document.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

25     this, Mr. President.  Where have you found volunteers of the Serbian

Page 13763

 1     Radical Party?  They're not mentioned anywhere.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I never said this.  There must

 3     have been a problem in the translation.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is the translation I received.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I beg the interpreters, once

 6     again, be very careful with your interpretation.

 7             I said that in this document there is mention of the possible

 8     role played by General Mladic in case of providing, if need be, support

 9     to the following units:  The Wolves, the Tigers and the White Eagles.

10     And I added that I noted that in this paragraph, there is no mention of

11     the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.  This is what I said.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is absolutely a

13     forgery, an ill-intentioned and definite forgery, and this forgery has

14     been produced by The Hague OTP.  Such a document is quite impossible in

15     the practice of the activities of the Federal Secretariat for National

16     Defence and the Chief of Staff of the armed forces.  This is a

17     nonexistent document.  This is something manufactured by The Hague

18     Prosecutors.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  Don't say that

20     it's the OTP which fabricated this document.  This is a very serious

21     accusation.  The Prosecution must have received this document from

22     someone, from a witness, from the Serbian authorities.  I have no idea

23     who sent this document in the first place, and when he received the

24     document, it was disclosed to you.  Otherwise, you know, you are -- this

25     would be very serious.  This is a very serious allegation, you know, that

Page 13764

 1     an international tribunal would be fabricating documents.  This is a very

 2     serious accusation.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As if that would be the first time,

 4     Mr. President, as if there aren't many other cases when they produce

 5     false documents, even false indictments.

 6             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honours, as with much of what the accused

 7     alleges, this really doesn't merit much of a response.

 8             I will indicate, however, that this document was provided to the

 9     Office of the Prosecutor --

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I don't agree with you.  I

11     don't agree with you.  I don't think that you can say this merits no

12     answer.  There is a document.  It was disclosed to him officially through

13     the official channel, and he's saying this is -- he's saying that this is

14     a forgery.  We can't just, like, set it aside.  I believe that the OTP

15     must absolutely look into the origin of this document, see who provided

16     this document to you, whether you were instrumented -- you were

17     manipulated by the person who actually gave you this document.  This must

18     be dealt with with the utmost seriousness.

19             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honour, the allegations that the accused

20     continues to make about fabricating documents, fabricating evidence,

21     false indictments, is not something that we are prepared to deal with

22     each and every time he raises it because, quite frankly, he's doing it

23     for political reasons outside of this courtroom, and it is not, in our

24     respectful view, a proper use of the limited time we have available to

25     us.

Page 13765

 1             This document was provided to the Prosecution by a Defence

 2     counsel in another case.  It was simply disclosed to the accused.  We

 3     have not tendered this document.  We have not sought to rely on this

 4     document.  The accused has simply presented a document that was disclosed

 5     to him, flagged it up as some kind of Prosecution-fabricated document.

 6     It is a complete waste of everyone's time for us to continue talking

 7     about this.

 8             When we identify documents that may contain Rule 68 material,

 9     it's disclosed to the accused.  That does not mean in any way, shape, or

10     form that the OTP adopts the document.  We disclose material that we

11     believe, on its face, contains information that the accused might think

12     is exculpatory.  If he chooses to use it and it helps his case, fine.  If

13     he brings in documents and simply makes allegations that OTP -- unfounded

14     allegations that OTP has created a document, that is improper.

15             The document was provided to us, as I've indicated, by Defence

16     counsel in another case, and it was disclosed to the accused because our

17     searches indicated that it might contain material that was exculpatory

18     due to the search terms used that presumably included the name of

19     Mr. Arkan.  But we're not going to go into the merits of whether this is

20     a fabricated document or not.  This is simply a waste of our time, in our

21     respectful submission.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This document was

23     handed to the OTP by counsel of Defence, but we don't know which counsel

24     of Defence, we don't know who it is, and then the OTP disclosed it to the

25     accused under Rule 68.  Very well.  So as long as you're handed a

Page 13766

 1     document, you disclose it.  That's the conclusion I draw from this.

 2             Proceed, Mr. Seselj.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it seems to be that

 4     I am again to blame because of this forgery.  It is the duty of the

 5     Prosecutor to tell us from which Defence counsel and in which case he

 6     received this.  The Defence counsel cannot be relieved of responsibility.

 7     We must know the name of that person and the case.  What kind of a person

 8     would I be if I had even tried to use this document as exculpatory

 9     material?  As the Prosecutor said, this was disclosed to me under

10     Rule 68(1).  Is this kind -- is this intended to mislead, to compromise

11     my entire defence?  Imagine if I was stupid enough or as stupid as the

12     Prosecution thought I was to in haste use this document as exculpatory in

13     my defence, and then my whole defence would break into pieces on that

14     basis.

15             This is not such a minor issue, and I insist, Mr. President, that

16     the Prosecutor tells us from whom -- from which lawyer he deceived

17     [as interpreted] this document as an exculpatory one, and that lawyer

18     must be suspended and prohibited from appearing before an international

19     court, even before a national court.  Do we need to conceal the identity

20     of that attorney now?

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber

22     has been seized by this oral submission of yours and will deliberate on

23     this.

24             Proceed now.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 13767

 1        Q.   Mr. VS-1035, in paragraph 8, and you also said in the

 2     examination-in-chief, that at the beginning of 1992, you had problems in

 3     executing your duties.  You're a traffic policeman.  And then you say:

 4             "If I was to approach a Serb or a reserve officer of the JNA with

 5     the intention of fining him for a traffic offence, they would make it

 6     clear to me that I could do nothing to them because I was a Muslim and

 7     they were a Serb.  Does that mean that all the Serbs in Bijeljina knew

 8     you and that they knew you were a Muslim, but when stopping anyone in

 9     traffic and trying to fine them, you don't tell anyone your name?

10             "A.  No, I have been stopped hundreds of times by traffic

11     policemen, and no one ever introduced himself, nor did I ask them to

12     introduce themselves."

13             And then you say that you had problems with the reserve officers

14     of the JNA.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You should know that as a policeman, you are not competent for

17     JNA officers in uniform, whether they're active duty or reservists.  The

18     moment he puts on a uniform, then it is only the military police that has

19     competencies over him?

20        A.   Only if he's moving in a military vehicle.

21        Q.   But you have no right to detain a JNA officer if he shows you his

22     official ID, whether he's a reserve or active duty?

23        A.   If he commits an offence, I can detain him or I can inform the

24     military police.  We're talking about a traffic offence.  In that case,

25     not a single officer is exempted from paying a fine for an offence he may

Page 13768

 1     have made, and he's not exempt from my control if he's moving in a

 2     private civilian vehicle.

 3        Q.   But not a single officer is relieved of responsibility for a

 4     traffic offence, yes, but the procedure is different.  You stop a reserve

 5     officer and you tell him, You have been speeding, driving at such and

 6     such a speed, the fine is such and such; and wearing a uniform, he shows

 7     you his official ID confirming that he's a JNA officer, and your only

 8     possible measure is to report to the military police, for them to take

 9     over the case.

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Well, surely you didn't have the right to arrest him.  You had no

12     right to detain and arrest him.  You never had that right.

13        A.   Let us clear this up.  One thing is to ask for his ID, and to

14     detain him is another.  If he refuses to pay the fine for the offence he

15     has made, then I file a report, and that report is not filed with the

16     military police, the military organ, but to the magistrates courts.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, if he refuses to pay a

18     fine, that's not a problem.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There might be a mistake on

20     page 60, line 24.  My fellow Judge has signaled this to me.  Mr. Seselj

21     is putting a question to you.  You're a police officer, you're in charge

22     of traffic, and therefore, you are competent when it comes to traffic

23     offences, and then he looks into this, and in English on line 24, you

24     answer, saying:  "No."  In French, it was a "Yes."  So it seems that we

25     have a problem here.

Page 13769

 1             Let me put the question again to the witness.

 2             When a JNA officer is in a military vehicle, are you entitled to

 3     control this person?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A JNA officer driving a military

 5     vehicle, then I have -- the civilian police has no right to control him.

 6     But if he's driving in a civilian vehicle --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute.  I'll go step by

 8     step.  The second question now.

 9             Let's imagine we have a JNA officer in full uniform in a private

10     car, let's say in a Golf, for example, registered in Germany, for

11     example.  Are you entitled to check this person?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An officer driving a car with

13     foreign registration plates, for instance, for Germany, something he was

14     not allowed to do; but if he's driving a vehicle with civilian

15     registration plates or German or French registration plates, you can stop

16     him and control him if there is an offence made.  You ask him to pay the

17     fine on the spot, or you can write a report to the magistrates court.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let me make this a

19     bit more complex.  Let's say it's a JNA officer in a private car, but

20     let's say that he tells you that this vehicle has been requisitioned by

21     the army.  Are you entitled, then, to check and control him?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to see his documents.  For

23     the requisitioning of that vehicle, he must have a written certificate

24     showing that that vehicle has been requisitioned by the JNA.  This

25     document does not relate to him but to the vehicle.

Page 13770

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Proceed.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation].

 3        Q.   Let me now refer to something that surprised me most.  You made a

 4     statement in 1997 and in 2001.  In neither of those statements do you

 5     mention my name or the Serbian Radical Party or Mirko Blagojevic, and now

 6     suddenly, just before your appearance in court, on the 8th -- no, on the

 7     2nd of September, 2008, you now speak of Mirko Blagojevic.  In

 8     paragraph 26, you say all the police personnel in Bijeljina knew

 9     Mirko Blagojevic and his brother as criminals long before the conflict;

10     Mirko Blagojevic was a member of the SDS, of the Serbian Democratic Party

11     in Bijeljina, and one of Seselj's men.

12             Please, was Mirko Blagojevic ever had -- did he ever have a

13     criminal record?  As a policeman in Bijeljina, you should know that.

14        A.   In the territory of Yugoslavia, no.

15        Q.   I see.  He was never punished on the territory of Yugoslavia?

16        A.   That is what I believe, what I think.

17        Q.   How could you say, then, that he was a criminal?

18        A.   According to the information of the Crime Service.

19        Q.   What did the Crime Service know about him?

20        A.   Much more than I did.

21        Q.   What, specifically?  Tell me so that I should know.  I hear of

22     that for the first time.  I'd like to know.

23        A.   According to my information, he engaged in criminal activities

24     abroad.

25        Q.   Where?

Page 13771

 1        A.   Abroad.  I don't know where.

 2        Q.   Was it in Zambia?

 3        A.   No, in Europe.

 4        Q.   In Europe.  Was it in Spain?

 5        A.   I can't say with precision.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   What kind of criminal activity?

 7        A.   Stealing.

 8        Q.   What, stealing what?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.  I can't say.

10        Q.   You're a serious person.  You're a professional policeman with

11     some experience.  If you say of a living man who until recently was a

12     deputy in the Joint Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, who is to this

13     day a deputy in the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, who is President of

14     the Party of Serb Radicals, which contains my name in its name in the

15     Republika Srpska, when you say of him that he's a criminal in such an

16     important official document, and I think you repeated that in the

17     courtroom, surely you have to have some evidence of that.  Just imagine

18     if I were to say of you that you were a criminal.  I have no evidence.  I

19     never heard of any particular crime that you may have committed.  I have

20     no evidence that you committed a war crime.  Just imagine if I were to

21     say of you that you were a criminal.  Wouldn't that be terrible?

22        A.   I would have to defend myself.

23        Q.   Why would you have to defend yourself if I have no evidence?  Why

24     should Mirko Blagojevic defend himself, or why should I defend him, if

25     you don't have a single piece of specific evidence to prove that he was

Page 13772

 1     ever a criminal?

 2        A.   I personally don't have any evidence.  All I can say, that the

 3     Crime Service, even before this party was founded, that is, before all

 4     the parties were founded, that there was some analysis of persons such as

 5     Mirko Blagojevic and others.  And I can say, among other things, that I

 6     learnt from my colleagues who worked in that service about meetings that

 7     were held at those parties and what he did before, but I personally don't

 8     know.

 9        Q.   But what was he?  He was simply registered as a Serb nationalist,

10     that's all, and nothing more than that.  He was never charged with

11     anything before any court.  He was never charged with a single crime.

12     And what is this like?  You pin crimes on to someone.  You label him as a

13     criminal with no reason at all.  He is the chief Radical in Republika

14     Srpska.  If he's a criminal, then I'm a criminal too.  He enjoys my

15     complete trust.  He's a long-time friend.  We go way back, before the

16     Serb Radical Party was ever established.

17             You know that I used to go to Bijeljina before?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Do you know when I visited?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you perhaps hear that I was there some months before the

22     armed clashes broke out?

23        A.   All I can say is I did not personally see you there, Mr. Seselj.

24     But each time you visited, this is something that would be known.

25        Q.   The police would know about it?

Page 13773

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And they would provide -- they would monitor my movements around

 3     Bijeljina whenever I was there, discreetly, but every step I made; right?

 4        A.   Yes.  Well, let me be straight and open about this.  Those were

 5     other services that were involved in that type of work, and I can't say I

 6     monitored you myself.  I simply don't know.  But every time you visited,

 7     the police knew about it.  The police knew you were in Cafe Srbija with

 8     Mirko Blagojevic, that sort of thing.

 9        Q.   That could hardly have been keep secret; right?

10        A.   No.  That was being monitored.

11        Q.   Everybody knew that I was a major Serb nationalist, the biggest

12     Serb nationalist, perhaps, the most fervent.  Do you know of anyone who

13     is a more fervent Serb nationalist than I am?

14        A.   No, I don't, frankly.

15        Q.   There you go.  That's one thing that we agree on entirely.  For

16     example, six months before the conflict, were you aware of my visits to

17     Bijeljina?  Did I make any visits to Bijeljina as far as you could tell?

18     Let's assume the clashes broke out on the last day of March 1992.  Did I

19     visit Bijeljina at any point during the latter half of 1992 or the first

20     three months?

21        A.   Not as far as I know.

22        Q.   Do you know any differently?

23        A.   I can't say.  I don't know that, either.

24        Q.   I'm asking you because we had a witness here whose evidence I

25     challenged, who said that just before the clashes broke out, I had

Page 13774

 1     visited Bijeljina.  If I'd been there, you would have known about it;

 2     right?  The word would have gone 'round, wouldn't it?

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Would you please slow down.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Fine.  Let's move on to a different issue now.

 6             In the previous paragraph --

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, before we leave paragraph 26, I would

 8     like to put a question to the witness in respect of the next sentence of

 9     that paragraph because, Mr. Witness, you seem to have told the

10     investigator from the Prosecution that Mr. Mirko Blagojevic was a member

11     of the SDS, and yet in the video-clip we heard yesterday, Mr. Blagojevic

12     himself introduced him as the leader of the SRS volunteers.  So my

13     question to you is:  Where does this membership of the SDS come from?

14     Did you tell the investigator that he was a member of the SDS, and where

15     did you know this from?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may have been a

17     misinterpretation.  He was not a member of the SDS, not as far as I knew.

18     I know that he was with the Radicals.  That's all I know.  But the SDS,

19     that was probably a typo, an error.  The Serb Radical Party, SRS.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So you are entering a correction to the statement

21     in paragraph 26; is that correctly understood, that you meant to say that

22     Mr. Blagojevic was a member of the SRS?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'm trying to find

Page 13775

 1     some things about your credibility.  You have made a statement in 1997.

 2     I have this statement, and nowhere in this statement is there any mention

 3     of Mr. Seselj or of the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party.

 4     However, in this statement, you really stress the role played by Arkan.

 5             When you testified in 1997, did the OTP tell you which case you

 6     were going to testify in?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I gave a statement, this main

 8     statement that I gave the first time around.  Its scope is far broader

 9     than the one that I think you have, and my statement in its entirety, if

10     you look at it, shows you the overall goings-on in 1991 and 1992.  It was

11     about several different procedures that were in progress.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all the other

13     microphones in the courtroom please be switched off.  We cannot hear the

14     witness at all on account of the enormous background noise.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, no mention was made of

16     Mr. Seselj or anyone else in the --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  You say

18     that you made an initial statement that was a lengthy one.  In what year

19     did you make that statement?  Because we have three statements, the one

20     dating back to 1997, the one dating to 2001, and the 2008 statement.  So

21     the lengthy statement that you just referred to, when did that take

22     place?  Was it done here with the OTP, or was it done before other

23     investigators?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First, I gave a statement to

25     Germany's crime police, and then I provided the exact date and year.  I

Page 13776

 1     can't say really, but that was the --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpretation will

 3     proceed as soon as all of the sources of background noise have been

 4     eliminated and we can hear the witness.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In Germany, to what

 6     investigators did you make a statement?  Were they German investigators?

 7     Who were they?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The German investigators.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] They were all German, were

10     they?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were Germans.  They were

12     working for Germany's crime police.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And so they asked you questions

14     in the German language because you speak German?  They asked you

15     questions in German, did they?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, in Bosnian, Serbo-Croatian.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In your own language.  Well,

18     when you met with the investigators from OTP, they said to you that you

19     were going to be testifying in the Milosevic or the Seselj case or in

20     both?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told that it depended on what

22     was necessary as the proceedings progressed.  I would be called as a

23     witness.  If there is something in my statement about the Milosevic

24     trial, it would be the Milosevic trial.  If there was something about the

25     Seselj trial, I would be called to testify in that trial.  But it wasn't

Page 13777

 1     specified at the time.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were not told in which

 3     case they would be using your statements?  They didn't say, You'll come

 4     to the Milosevic trial, or to Seselj's trial, or anybody else's trial;

 5     nobody said to you at any time in which case you would be testifying?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but very soon there was another

 7     visit by The Hague investigators in relation to whichever trial was going

 8     on at the time.  For example, they wanted another statement that was in

 9     relation to one of the ongoing procedures at the time, that sort of

10     thing.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you testified in the

12     Milosevic trial, at any time were you asked questions about the

13     volunteers from the Serb Radical Party; do you remember that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Perhaps now you

16     will remember the last statement that you made, which is a recent one.

17     It dates back to the 2nd of September, 2008, just a few months ago.  Now,

18     that statement has been taken down.  How did that happen?  Were you told

19     to tell the whole story, or did they ask you very specific questions and

20     you answered those questions?  You were a policeman, and of course you

21     understand what I'm driving at.  Were they the ones who said to you to

22     narrate all the events and then they summarised them in the document, or

23     else did they ask you questions about specific topics?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After my first statement, something

25     was said about the preparations for the Seselj case, what was relevant --

Page 13778

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters couldn't hear the witness.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're not answering my

 3     question.  On the 2nd of September, 2008, you met with two investigators,

 4     one of whom is here - I won't give you his name - one interpreter, as

 5     well, and they heard you for the purpose of having your statement under

 6     Article 92 ter, and they said to you, Sir, could you tell us from the

 7     start the whole story, what you saw, heard, et cetera; or else, did they

 8     say, We shall deal with separate topics; the first topic, yourself and

 9     your professional background, and they then asked you to talk about

10     yourself; and then as to your background and personality, they drafted

11     three paragraphs?  I just want to know how this was done.  There's no

12     trap in my question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I can say is to repeat

14     something that I said already.  The statement that I provided --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is background noise.

16     We can't hear the witness.  Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then I was asked questions

18     about my previous statement and as far as it was relevant to this trial.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.

20             Now, as of paragraph 16, they call this mopping up in Bijeljina,

21     picking up of corpses in Bijeljina.  So as of paragraph 16, you start

22     talking about the 48 bodies, et cetera, and then all of a sudden we see

23     paragraph 22 --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  26, interpreter's correction.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, we talk about

Page 13779

 1     bodies being collected, and then we talk about Mirko Blagojevic, and here

 2     what you say is the whole police station in Bijeljina knew

 3     Mirko Blagojevic and his brother as being criminals.  Mirko Blagojevic

 4     was a member of the SDS in Bijeljina and one of Seselj's men.  So are you

 5     the one who spontaneously came forward with this information or did the

 6     investigators say, Do you know Blagojevic?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, based on my previous

 8     statement, and I think I -- [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  And you are the one

10     who said that Blagojevic was a member or was one of Seselj's men, rather?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  A member of Seselj's party.

12     We can put it that way.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He was a member of Seselj's

14     party.  He was a member at that time or became a member later on?

15     There's a difference.  Was he a member in 1992, in the month of May 1992,

16     or was -- did he become a member later on, or don't you know?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I can't answer that

18     one.  I don't know.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Last question,

20     because earlier on Mr. Seselj asked you a series of questions and you

21     answered, but it wasn't very clear.  It seemed to me that at some time

22     you were deputy, so I understood that you were elected at the

23     Municipality of Bijeljina.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mirko Blagojevic, Mr. President.

25     There might have been the misinterpretation.  Mirko Blagojevic was a

Page 13780

 1     deputy in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a federal one.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very good.  Very good.  And

 3     when Mirko Blagojevic, who was an MP in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when -- he

 4     was elected on a list of the Serbian Radical Party; is that right?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the Serb Radical Party,

 6     yes.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These were the elections following

 9     the Dayton Accords.  That was after 2000, I think, when he was a deputy

10     to the Joint Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Before that, he was a

11     deputy to the National Assembly of Republika Srpska, two terms of office

12     consecutive, I think.  But that's hardly of any consequence now.

13             Shall I continue?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go on.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. VS-1035, in your first statement, dated the 3rd of June,

18     1997, in your second statement dated the 22nd of October, 2001, and in

19     the entire transcript of your evidence in the Milosevic trial, and your

20     appearance - there was quite a lengthy one, right - there is not a single

21     reference to my name, to the name of Mirko Blagojevic, or the Serb

22     Radical Party, not a single one.  Yet now you appear in September before

23     Mr. Mussemeyer, and he tells you you're supposed to testify in the Seselj

24     case.  Was that the first time you heard that you would be appearing in

25     this case, in September last year?

Page 13781

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   When was the first time?

 3        A.   A long, long time ago, I was told by The Hague investigators

 4     that, should the need arise and if they believed there was anything in my

 5     statement that might be relevant to the case or to any other case, the

 6     Krajisnik case, the Plavsic, the Milosevic case, your case, that my

 7     evidence would be used and that if necessary I would be called.

 8        Q.   What year was that?

 9        A.   2001, when I gave my second statement.

10        Q.   Sir, Mr. VS-1035, in 2001 no one had any idea that there would be

11     an indictment against me to begin with, least of all the OTP.  Don't

12     protect the OTP.  There's no need for that.  You certainly weren't told

13     that at the time, not by them; is that a fact?

14        A.   Again, I don't know the exact date.

15        Q.   Quite right.

16        A.   But I can confirm that I was told this in relation to all of the

17     accused who were here, if needed, for the purposes of the Defence, the

18     Prosecutor.

19        Q.   But my name was not mentioned, was it?

20        A.   Probably not.

21        Q.   Very well.  You're saying what The Hague Prosecution is saying.

22     You're defending it, and they're not defending it themselves.  They say,

23     addressing the Trial Chamber, since the Trial Chamber allowed them to

24     request again that your statement be taken as 92 ter - there's no need

25     for me to elaborate on that - and it says in accordance with that, the

Page 13782

 1     OTP has reviewed the body of evidence linked to this witness - therefore,

 2     that is the evidence used by Mr. Mussemeyer in the examination-in-chief

 3     and probably the Prosecutor in the Milosevic case - and prepared a

 4     revised version of the witness statement relating specifically to this

 5     case:

 6             "Having reviewed the statement in his own language, the witness

 7     signed it on the 2nd of September, 2008."

 8             So the Prosecution admits that it prepared this statement of

 9     yours, this third statement, and then you reviewed that statement and

10     signed it; is that how it went?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Well, how did it go, then?

13        A.   The Prosecution came, and one day we worked on my first

14     statement, and then this statement was prepared that was signed in

15     September.  It wasn't prepared beforehand.  Each of my statements was

16     reviewed again with respect to the topics relevant to this particular

17     case.

18        Q.   Very well.  You're now defending the Prosecution, but the

19     Prosecution says that they prepared the revised version, which means that

20     the Prosecution had in mind everything else you had signed earlier on in

21     your previous statements, your testimony in the Milosevic case, and on

22     that basis they prepared a lengthier statement.  But this OTP would not

23     be true to itself had it not thought of adding something that you had no

24     idea about earlier on, to add the statement that Mirko Blagojevic was

25     known as a criminal, that he was a member of the Serbian Democratic

Page 13783

 1     Party.  You didn't even notice this when you signed it.  Surely, you

 2     would have corrected it.  He never was a member of the Serbian Democratic

 3     Party.

 4             But what's the most important thing:  In your first statement,

 5     you say that a father and his two sons, Muslims, were killed on the

 6     pavement in front of their house, 300 metres from the hospital, and you

 7     also said that one of the sons was killed -- shot in the forehead at

 8     close range.  And now, in this latest statement, paragraph 25, following

 9     instructions from the OTP, you add:

10             "My relatives told me ..." so there's an intermediary, "... that

11     the wife of the man and the mother of two sons had said that the murder

12     had been done by Damo [as interpreted], known as Sumar, a member of the

13     Blagojevic's men."

14             So this is hearsay.  You're making accusations against

15     Branislav Filipovic, called Sumar, who is dead now, that he killed these

16     people.

17             You know how the fighting went on in Bijeljina.  You showed us on

18     the map where this Srbija Cafe is, didn't you?  The hospital is quite a

19     long way away.  It's quite a long way away, and it is not in the part of

20     the centre of Bijeljina where Blagojevic's men were fighting.  They were

21     fighting in the surroundings of the Srbija Cafe, the municipality

22     building, and the bus station; is that right?

23        A.   Mr. Seselj, I cannot confirm this.  I don't know.  I didn't see

24     this.  You know much more.

25        Q.   How come that now, after so many years, surely it would have been

Page 13784

 1     quite logical if you knew that Branislav Filipovic, known as Sumar, had

 2     killed these three men - that's a terrible crime - that you should have

 3     said that immediately in 1997 when it was still fresh in your mind, and

 4     to say this in the Milosevic case and not now in the case against me?

 5             And let me add to this question.  The OTP knows that I refused to

 6     examine witnesses under 92 ter, and the Prosecution knows if they add

 7     this to your statement and the Trial Chamber admits it, that the

 8     statement goes into the file, it goes without any response on my part.

 9     Are you claiming today that Branislav Filipovic, known as Sumar, killed

10     these three people, the father and two sons?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Answer the question, and then

12     I'll give you the floor.  Mr. Seselj is asking you a very clear question,

13     Witness.  Can you answer this, and then I will give the floor to

14     Mr. Mussemeyer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not true that I said this

16     subsequently.  My first statement about the murder of these three people,

17     who were in the JNA street, figured from in my very first statement, and

18     it was linked to Mr. Branislav, Sumar, because I received that same

19     information from the wife of the killed person, that is, the father and

20     the mother of those two men, and I had to explain that to the

21     investigator.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   But where is that in your statement?  On page 5 in your first

24     statement, in the middle of the paragraph, you say that you remember a

25     father and two sons who were shot on the pavement in front of their

Page 13785

 1     house, which was 300 metres behind the hospital in the JNA street.  One

 2     son was shot in the forehead at close range.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Prosecutor is

 4     on his feet.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 6     interrupting me when it's most interesting.

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I didn't interrupt you while you were speaking

 8     [indiscernible] to you.  But what I want -- it may be that I'm not in the

 9     position to clarify this in the position as a Prosecutor.  I was a

10     witness when this statement was taken.  I only want to clarify that

11     every -- we drafted the statement from the first statement and the second

12     statement the witness has given and from his testimony, and every time,

13     we put the source of it at the end of the paragraph.  You can see this.

14             This draft was translated into B/C/S.  We brought it to the

15     witness.  The witness read it, and he made his annotations and

16     corrections all the time, and where you can see no quote, this is what

17     the witness told us at the end, and it was added according to the

18     witness.  He remembered certain things and added this, and we had no

19     quote from former statements, just to clarify this.

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the Prosecutor had

22     no right to provide this clarification.  Who can take the Prosecutor at

23     his word?  No court can without question take the word of the Prosecutor.

24     If there are proceedings against Mr. Mussemeyer, then he can go into

25     explanations.  It is up to me to state what is happening here on the

Page 13786

 1     basis of the facts.

 2        Q.   And I repeat, you never said earlier on that Branislav Filipovic,

 3     known as Sumar, killed these three men.  You didn't say that in the

 4     Milosevic case.  I have the complete transcripts from that case, nor did

 5     you say this in your first two statements.  It was only when the

 6     Prosecutor was preparing you for testimony in this trial this has been

 7     added to the text.  Who suggested that you make this addition, if you

 8     made that addition yourself?

 9        A.   I must repeat.  My first statement was linked to the killing of

10     these three men.  I said that then.  Now, whether you have it before you

11     or not, I don't know.  Whether I had that during the Milosevic case, I

12     can't remember whether there was a specific question by the Prosecution

13     or the Judges about this, who killed those three men, but I know that my

14     first statement referred to information that I had that this related to

15     Mr. Branislav, Sumar.

16        Q.   But it's not there.  The Trial Chamber has your first statement.

17     The Prosecutor has your first statement.  It is page 5, central

18     paragraph.  It is not to be found in the entire transcript of the

19     Milosevic case.  It's not there.  Very well.  It's not there.  What can

20     we do about it?  Let us move on.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, that first statement,

22     well, it would seem that that was the one you made with the German

23     police, and we don't have that statement.  In the first statement dating

24     back to 1997 that everybody does have here, well, the question of

25     Branislav Filipovic is not mentioned.  So the first statement is the one

Page 13787

 1     that was made before the German police, isn't it?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And where is that statement,

 3     Mr. President?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Nobody has this.  Indeed,

 5     nobody has that.  The OTP, have you ever had this statement made to the

 6     German police, or are you learning about it today?

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I am not sure, but I think it's the first time I

 8     hear about it.  I'm not aware and I never saw this statement.  I'm only

 9     aware of the OTP statement.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, did you inform the OTP

11     or the Tribunal's investigator of the fact that you had previously made a

12     statement -- previous to 1997 made a statement to investigators from

13     Germany, in Germany?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At our first meeting, it was on the

15     basis of that meeting that I had my first encounter with the

16     investigators of this Tribunal, and they were familiar -- they knew that

17     I had given that statement already.  Now, whether they received it or

18     not, or whether it was prompted by this that they took another statement

19     from me, I don't know.  This relates to the police in Germany.

20             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Mr. President, I was checking the transcript

21     from the witness testimony in Milosevic, and in fact he is mentioning

22     Sumar.  It's on page 18644, where he was shown a picture, a photo, and he

23     says:

24             "As far as I'm able to recognise him, I think it is Sumar.

25             "Q.  And this person by the name Sumar, what information are you

Page 13788

 1     able to provide about Sumar with respect to his involvement in Bijeljina?

 2             "A.  As far as I know, he was a member of the White Eagles, and

 3     most of the people killed, as far as I was able to learn, were killed by

 4     his group, especially the person killed in the JNA street.

 5             "Q.  Did you speak to the wife of one of the victims whose body

 6     you recovered in Bijeljina?

 7             "A.  Yes, the mother of the three persons I found in the JNA

 8     street next to the library told me that Brano, Sumar, himself had come,

 9     taken the three people out of the house and killed them in the street in

10     front of the house."

11             So far the quote from the Milosevic transcript.  So he mentioned

12     him.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a reference

14     to the White Eagles.  You see that the witness is talking second-hand or

15     third-hand.  He's identifying the White Eagles group, and he refers to

16     them in other places, and about whose existence there are official

17     documents, that the White Eagles did this, and he attaches Sumar to the

18     White Eagles, and now he's attaching Sumar to Mirko Blagojevic.  Surely,

19     this is something you should have cleared up with him.  Why did he say

20     "White Eagles" earlier on?  Branislav Filipovic, Sumar, could not have

21     physically been in that spot.

22             If you look at the improvised map, you will see where the

23     hospital is and where the Srbija Cafe is.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  What you've just

25     said is on the transcript.

Page 13789

 1             We'll now break for 20 minutes, and, Mr. Seselj, you will have 40

 2     minutes left.  We'll finish this hearing with this witness.  This means

 3     that we will not be able to hear the other witness.  It seems obvious

 4     now.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

 8             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

 9             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   According to my information, the conflict in Bijeljina started on

11     the 31st of March, and it continued on the 1st and 2nd of April, and on

12     the 3rd of April it was over by the defeat of the Muslim forces.  What do

13     you have to say to that?

14        A.   Yes, I agree with you.

15        Q.   Do you know how the conflict started?

16        A.   According to my information, it started when a bomb was thrown

17     into the Istanbul Cafe.

18        Q.   Who threw that bomb?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   So the person was never identified?

21        A.   I think not.

22        Q.   So a bomb was thrown, the police carried out an inquiry, some

23     minor material damage was done, and the perpetrator was never found?

24        A.   As far as I know, he was not identified.

25        Q.   And this was before the conflict?

Page 13790

 1        A.   I think that the building of barricades started that evening.

 2        Q.   I think you're confusing things.  Let me remind you.  Do you know

 3     who Alija Gusalic is?  He's well known in Bijeljina.

 4        A.   I think I do know him.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that he is a person of very poor moral qualities,

 6     without any job?

 7        A.   I didn't know him personally, but I know that he took part in

 8     these events.

 9        Q.   You're not aware of his criminal past?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you know that he went to a special school for retarded

12     children, elementary school?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   Do you know that on the 31st of March, in the afternoon/early

15     evening, he got on a horse, and in front of the Istanbul Cafe, with a

16     bomb in his hand, galloped past towards the Srbija Cafe, intending to

17     throw the bomb at the Srbija Cafe?  The whole of Bijeljina knows this.

18        A.   Yes, I do.  I'm aware of that.

19        Q.   And in front of the Srbija Cafe, there were Serbs standing.  It

20     was spring-time, quite warm.  There were people standing in front of the

21     cafe?

22        A.   Probably.

23        Q.   And when Mirko Blagojevic saw him galloping on his horse with a

24     bomb in his hand, he fired his pistol and hit him in the leg; is that

25     true?

Page 13791

 1        A.   Possibly, but I can't confirm this.  I wasn't in Bijeljina just

 2     then.  It's possible that that is how it happened.

 3        Q.   So Alija Gusalic didn't manage to throw that hand-grenade?

 4        A.   That is what I heard.  He was hit before he opened the fuse.

 5        Q.   I wasn't there, either.  I heard this from other people.

 6        A.   I also heard about it.

 7        Q.   And that is when the shooting started.  According to my

 8     information, the Muslims put up 24 barricades in the centre of Bijeljina;

 9     is that true?

10        A.   According to my information, it is not.

11        Q.   I was told this by eye-witnesses and the participants, and they

12     had control over the whole centre of Bijeljina; is that true?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   In the centre of Bijeljina, only people under Mirko Blagojevic's

15     control were there, and they were the first to respond and to take part

16     in the conflict.  Do you know that Mirko Blagojevic and his men were

17     members of the TO, were part of the TO at the time?

18        A.   I'm not aware of that.

19        Q.   Was he outside the regular TO forces?

20        A.   I think he was outside the regular TO forces because before that,

21     his men, armed men, provided security of the cafe.

22        Q.   That is one thing, but to take part in armed conflicts is

23     another.  This was not the reason; it was the trigger.  If that had not

24     triggered it, something else would have because passions and tensions

25     were running high; am I right?

Page 13792

 1        A.   I'm just saying that I can't remember whether the grenade was

 2     thrown into the Istanbul Cafe first or was this Alija Gusalic who was

 3     galloping towards the other cafe first, which of the two events took

 4     place first.

 5        Q.   I know the grenade was thrown at the Istanbul Cafe, that came

 6     first, but there was no shooting after that.  Is that so?

 7        A.   I think -- actually, I am not sure about the date, but I think

 8     what triggered the events was the grenade in the Istanbul Cafe.

 9        Q.   When the grenade was thrown into the Istanbul Cafe, no one was

10     hurt; isn't that so?  The police came to carry out an investigation, so

11     the police were still operational in the whole town; are you aware of

12     that?

13        A.   A colleague who was a member of the SUP was injured by that

14     grenade.

15        Q.   He happened to be there?

16        A.   Yes.  He had the good fortune that this was a grenade with small

17     balls in it.

18        Q.   That's an offensive or a defensive weapon?

19        A.   No, the offensive one.

20        Q.   Let us say it's the black one.  This is an offensive grenade

21     because you throw this grenade.  If you throw the defensive type, then it

22     can hurt you, too, but the offensive one cannot, and what was that

23     policeman by ethnicity?

24        A.   He's a Muslim.  He was not a policeman.

25        Q.   Well, why did you say he was a colleague?

Page 13793

 1        A.   No, he worked in the Secretariat of the Interior.

 2        Q.   Was he involved in the throwing of that grenade?

 3        A.   I don't believe it.  He was a guest.  I must say he is an

 4     employee of the SUP, but I think he was working in the Administration.

 5        Q.   Fine.  In your previous statement, you talked about the existence

 6     of the JNA reservists - that was a JNA unit, right - the TO, the Serb

 7     National Guard, and the Serb Volunteers Guard.  You never mentioned

 8     Blagojevic's men as an independent unit, never, ever, so the Serb

 9     Volunteer's Guard at the people who came with Arkan's men; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you know how many men in total Arkan brought to the area?

12        A.   I don't know.

13        Q.   Well, I'll tell you.  A total of 30?

14        A.   Probably.

15        Q.   Probably.  Not many, right?  Okay.  The Serb National Guard was

16     established by Mauzer; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you know that Mauzer was close with Arkan?

19        A.   Probably.  They were together from the outbreak of these clashes.

20        Q.   From the very outset.  Okay.  Do you know that they remained

21     close over the following years?

22        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.

23        Q.   All right.  Is it true when on the 3rd of April when the Muslims

24     were defeated, most of those involved in the clashes managed to leave

25     Bijeljina, right, and left for Brcko, as far as I know, or someplace

Page 13794

 1     else?  I don't know exactly.

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Is it true that the Muslims who remained in Bijeljina surrendered

 4     to the Serb forces?  I'm saying the Serb forces.  The Muslims forces,

 5     although in the Serb forces there were a great many Muslims, actually,

 6     quite a considerable number of them; right?

 7        A.   I don't believe that.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I'll convince you later on.  Is it true that the Muslims,

 9     once the clashes had ended, surrendered to the Serb forces about 500 long

10     barrels?  When I say "long barrels," I mean rifles, semi-automatic

11     rifles, automatic rifles, carbine rifles, that sort of thing.  Is this

12     something that you're aware of?

13        A.   I don't know the exact number of pieces that were handed over.

14     Most of the weapons were small arms or pistols, some hunting rifles,

15     maybe a handful of automatic rifles, but I wasn't aware of a huge amount

16     of automatic weapons.

17        Q.   I didn't say a huge amount of automatic weapons.  I said about

18     500 long barrels.  Did you see the actual heap when the weapons were

19     surrendered and piled up?

20        A.   Some of the weapons were surrendered at the SUP station, and the

21     figures don't seem to tally.

22        Q.   Maybe somebody simply stole part of it before it ever got to the

23     SUP building.  This was sometimes the case, somebody took a shine to a

24     certain rifle and then they just nick it; right?

25        A.   Possible.

Page 13795

 1        Q.   So you say that a total of 48 people were killed during the

 2     clashes in Bijeljina.  Based on what I know, the clashes went on for

 3     those four days, and a total of 38 people were killed, 22 of them

 4     Muslims, 15 Serbs, and a Croat lady.  Ten people were killed over the

 5     following month in the aftermath when various groups were marauding the

 6     Bijeljina area; that's what the MUP chief is telling us about; you read

 7     that document, didn't you?

 8        A.   All I say was about the bodies that I collected, and that's in

 9     the sketch that we looked at.  Those are bodies that I personally took to

10     the morgue at the hospital.

11        Q.   And your count was 48?

12        A.   At the hospital, the body count was 48.  It's not the number of

13     bodies that I brought there.  The number I'm telling you about is the

14     number of people that I brought there.

15        Q.   Is it true that the Muslim forces at the beginning of the clashes

16     already had a machine-gun that was mounted at the so-called water-tower?

17     You know the water-tower.  You probably know about that more than I do.

18        A.   Yes, yes, I'm familiar with that.  I don't believe that.  A

19     machine-gun would be impossible to mount there because it would be very

20     difficult to target anything from that position.

21        Q.   Why would it be difficult?

22        A.   In order to operate a machine-gun like that, you must have a

23     surface on which you can mount it.  As far as I know, by looking at the

24     water-tower, there's a window, and opening it up there, it would have

25     been very difficult to handle a machine-gun there.

Page 13796

 1        Q.   Why would one not be able to mount a machine-gun on a window?

 2        A.   A small one like that.

 3        Q.   A machine-gun, as an infantry weapon, is standard issue; right?

 4        A.   That's an automatic rifle, but a machine-gun is different.

 5        Q.   It's an automatic rifle.  We refer to it often as a machine-gun,

 6     but it wasn't a heavy machine-gun; right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Do you know that the Muslims had a number of

 9     sharp-shooters or snipers deployed around the centre of town?

10        A.   I can't really say.  I don't know that there were any sniper

11     nests at all.  Don't get me wrong.  I can't say because I didn't see, nor

12     did I hear of anyone being there and sniping from those positions.  What

13     I can tell you is that there were pockets of resistance by the Muslim

14     population.  There certainly were.

15        Q.   Fair enough.  Do you know that the Muslims had a bunker in the

16     park which is in the town centre, a makeshift bunker?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   You don't.  All right.

19        A.   I didn't see that.

20        Q.   All right.  You told us about the executions of Muslim civilians.

21     I'm not challenging that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let's be clear about

23     this.  This could be quite surprising and incredible.  Mr. Seselj is

24     asking you whether the Muslims had a bunker in the city centre.  I mean,

25     a bunker is quite obvious.  You say, "No."  I don't know where he got his

Page 13797

 1     information.  Are you absolutely sure that there was no bunker in the

 2     city centre?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The park in Bijeljina's town centre

 4     is not that large, really.  You would see a bunker.  I don't think you

 5     could build a bunker in a couple of hours.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.  You spoke about several Muslim

 8     civilians who were killed.  They were shot on the spot where they were

 9     found.  Nevertheless, I have to tell you that this happened to a number

10     of Serb civilians too.  Is that something you're aware of?

11        A.   It's true.

12        Q.   All right.  It's true.  Some bits of information for you.  Do you

13     know about Galac Street; where is that?

14        A.   Galac?  Yes.

15        Q.   According to my information, the Muslim forces shot the

16     19-year-old Zvonko Lazarevic there.  Have you heard of that?

17        A.   No, I haven't.

18        Q.   You haven't.  All right.  Do you know that Zvonko Lazarevic was

19     killed?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Fair enough.  Do you know that Antonija Ostojic was killed?  She

22     was born in 1926.

23        A.   As I said, I don't know.  I'm not privy to these names, but I can

24     tell you about that sketch and my evidence about that sketch.  There is a

25     rough location given for Serb victims --

Page 13798

 1        Q.   Let's just try to move things along a little bit and hurry things

 2     along a little.  I will give some information to you, and you confirm or

 3     deny whether you know anything about that.  Do you know that a Serb named

 4     Risto Stevanovic was killed in much the same way, and this person was not

 5     at all involved in the fighting?  If you don't know, I just move on; that

 6     simple.

 7        A.   I can't remember any names.

 8        Q.   And what about a Serb who was killed while riding a bicycle by a

 9     sniper?

10        A.   I don't know who killed him, but I know that he was killed.

11        Q.   Do you know about a Serb who was mentally retarded who was

12     killed?

13        A.   Yes, I heard about that.

14        Q.   You did.  Okay.  We won't mention his name.  There would be no

15     point to it.  Do you know that the Muslim forces killed a Croatian lady

16     named Marija Ilic at her door-step?  Her son Tomislav witnessed the

17     killing of Marija Ilic by the Muslim forces?

18        A.   I know that the lady was probably killed, the Croat lady, because

19     there is information to that effect in my statement about a Croat lady

20     being among the casualties.  I can't say who killed her because I don't

21     know.  I have no information indicating who it was who killed her.  You

22     probably know better than me.

23        Q.   Very well.  Then what about the mosque in the town centre, one of

24     the mosques in the town centre, that there was a machine-gun nest on top

25     of the mosque; right?

Page 13799

 1        A.   As far as I know, based on the information we received when we

 2     came to the station, there was something in the town centre, yes.

 3        Q.   On top of the mosque; right?

 4        A.   Yes, probably.

 5        Q.   All right.  Do you know that Coso Nargalic was the commander of

 6     the Muslim barricades; have you ever heard that name?

 7        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the name, but I don't know about him being

 8     in command of the barricades.  I can't confirm that, but I don't believe

 9     that that was, in fact, the case.

10        Q.   And what about Hasan Dusic?  Does that ring a bell?  Apparently,

11     he led the attack on the Serbs.  He was the founder of a unit that after

12     he was killed was named the Black Swans.  Does that ring a bell?

13        A.   Yes, it does.  The unit rings a bell.

14        Q.   At first it was a paramilitary unit, and then later it became

15     part of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, let's see the other side of this coin.  Do you

18     know about Gvozdevici?  It's a village; right?

19        A.   Yes, I know.

20        Q.   Do you know there were clashes that broke out among the Muslims

21     there?

22        A.   I'm not familiar with that, and I have family there.

23        Q.   Yet you don't know about this?

24        A.   No, I never learned about this.

25        Q.   All right.  Do you know that a substantial number of Muslims were

Page 13800

 1     involved in the fighting on the side of the Serb forces?

 2        A.   It was after June and July 1992.

 3        Q.   No, no, no, during the clashes in April.

 4        A.   No, not that I knew of.

 5        Q.   You didn't.  All right.  And what about Sergeant Admir Smajic, a

 6     Muslim, a person who was killed while fighting the Muslims in those first

 7     days?

 8        A.   That's not true.

 9        Q.   When was he killed?

10        A.   I think he was killed in Vukovar.

11        Q.   In Vukovar?

12        A.   Yes, as a member of the JNA.  He was a member of the JNA.

13     I think he was killed in Croatia.

14        Q.   Aren't you confusing him with somebody else?  According to my

15     information, he was killed while fighting the Muslim forces.

16        A.   No.  I think he was a regular officer of the army, and he was

17     killed somewhere in Croatia, I think.

18        Q.   Please, please, I verified some of this information.  Maybe this

19     is not all impeccable or perfectly accurate, but that's why I'm asking

20     you.  Tell me what you know.  That's how it works.

21             Do you know that by a decision of the Serb authorities, a street

22     in Bijeljina was named after him, Admir Smajic Street, which used to be

23     called the Jaksic Brothers Street?

24        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

25        Q.   Fine.  Fine.  What about Ibrahim Belgic [phoen] and Asim Vidahic

Page 13801

 1     [phoen]?  They, too, were killed in the fighting around the Bijeljina

 2     city park; right?

 3        A.   I'm not familiar with the names.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   You told us about the fact that later on, more Muslims were

 5     fighting with the Serb forces, had joined the Serb forces.  I looked at

 6     the BH media and press a little bit, and last year I came across a very

 7     interesting feature entitled:  "Muslims with cockades."  We don't have

 8     that much time, so I won't be showing it to you, but do you see how

 9     beautiful it is to see a Serb cockade on a Muslim fez cap.  Doesn't it

10     look nice?  I find it looks lovely.  I think the Muslims are actually our

11     brethren.  They're just Serbs who happen to be Muslim too.  You see how

12     nice it looks, this cockade on the Muslim fez cap.  The 3rd Semberija

13     Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska was established, 95 per cent of

14     its composition were Muslims; is that right?

15        A.   As far as I know, there was a unit like that, and as far as I

16     know, the same unit or part of its command were captured by --

17        Q.   The Croats; right?

18        A.   -- the Croats or the BH Army somewhere around Brcko.

19        Q.   Was this not perhaps close to the Orasje front-line?

20        A.   Probably.

21        Q.   So this BH Army of yours, what did that have to do with Orasje?

22     There were the Croat forces there, the local Croats, organised to form

23     Ustasha units.  They did not recognise any BH officer as their own

24     commanding officer; right?

25        A.   Let's try to explain this.  Orasje is close to the Sava River.

Page 13802

 1     The BH Army and the Croatian Defence Council, the 108, they were on the

 2     other side looking from the direction of Tuzla.

 3        Q.   Yes, but my information suggests that it was along the Orasje

 4     front that Smail Camdzic as arrested, as well as Amir Durakovic, Jusuf

 5     Verise [phoen], and Major Seifudin Guric [phoen], who was the Chief of

 6     Staff of the 3rd Semberija Brigade, so there were these four Muslims who

 7     were with the Serb army.  They were captured and later exchanged and

 8     released?

 9        A.   Yes, that's true, but I'll try to point this out again.  They

10     were captured by the BH Army or the HVO, the 108, not Orasje.  What are

11     you suggesting?

12        Q.   According to my information, this was along the Orasje

13     front-line, and the front-line ranged along this axis:  Orasje, Krepcici,

14     Markovici, Vasovic Polje, Vuksic.  Is that right?  Was that the line, the

15     front-line?

16        A.   It probably was, but what I'm telling you, there was something

17     going on on the other side of that line.

18        Q.   The commander of the 3rd Semberija Brigade was a well respected

19     Muslim called Pasaga Halilovic.  He was the manager of the Duvan company,

20     and I believe he still is.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm really sorry to interrupt you, but I'm simply

22     losing track of the direction here.  Where are we going with all of this?

23     Can you clarify?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Harhoff, I'll only be too happy

25     to clarify.  In Bijeljina, there were clashes between the Serb forces and

Page 13803

 1     the Muslim forces as a matter of principle.  However, the actual clashes

 2     erupted between the forces who wanted to preserve Yugoslavia on the one

 3     hand and the ones who were in favour of an independent Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina on the other.  A considerable number of Muslims were in

 5     favour of preserving Yugoslavia.  They fought for the Serb Army, on the

 6     side of the Serb Army, and this wasn't just Bijeljina.  It was in other

 7     towns, too, there.  My information suggests something about Bosanska

 8     Posavina as well.  There was a Muslim unit within the Serb Army, and its

 9     name was - a detachment - Mesa Selimovic Detachment.  For example, there

10     were a number of other situations like that.  The objective was not to

11     wipe out the Muslims.  The objective was to keep Bosnia and Herzegovina

12     within Yugoslavia.  It wasn't about any intolerance that the Serbs might

13     have harboured for the Muslims.  That's not what it was about.  The

14     crimes against the Muslims, the looting and expulsions occurred later on,

15     sometime later once Mauzer had taken control of Bijeljina.  Why?  The

16     Serb authorities were renaming streets across town after well-known

17     Muslims, Camil Sijaric, for example.  Vati Salamumba [phoen], there was a

18     street that was called that.  He was a politician from Congo.  He was a

19     national fighter during the non-aligned movement, and then it occurred to

20     someone to name a street in Bijeljina after him.  So the Serb authorities

21     thought it was appropriate that that street should be renamed after the

22     great fighter who was a Muslim -- a Serb writer who was a Muslim, Camil

23     Sijaric.  I think that's highly relevant.

24             Let me draw your attention to everything that is there in the

25     platform of the Serb Radical Party and the Serb Chetnik Movement.  Before

Page 13804

 1     that, we were in favour of the brotherhood and unity of Serb -- Orthodox

 2     Serbs, Muslim Serbs, Catholic Serbs, Protestant Serbs, all united.

 3     Therefore --

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But the difficulty I have is that as noble as the

 5     motives behind all of this may ever be, what this trial is concerned with

 6     are the crimes that were committed in the wake of the attempts to keep

 7     the Greater Yugoslavia or Yugoslavia together.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Mr. Harhoff, but one

 9     must also establish who was really responsible for those crimes, who was

10     out to commit those crimes, what were their motives, and what actions

11     exactly led to those crimes or contributed to the commission of those

12     crimes.  It's not simply about the desire to preserve Yugoslavia at the

13     cost of armed combat.  That in itself is not a crime.  Nevertheless,

14     there were many shady dealings that became part of all the fighting that

15     erupted later on.  So what shady dealings are we talking about exactly?

16     What I'm telling you is that those who were in favour of preserving

17     Yugoslav what were not by their nature criminals.  Well, now --

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think we've been through this many times

19     before.  The issue of the armed conflict, as such, is not at stake in

20     this trial.  It's only the crimes that were committed during the armed

21     conflict, and this is what you're up against.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether you have

23     already found evidence that a crime can be attached to me or linked to

24     me.  I haven't seen it anywhere.  Maybe you have.  I don't know.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm completely neutral in this.  I'm just telling

Page 13805

 1     you that you're accused -- you're up against the indictment that charges

 2     you for responsibility for some of these crimes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4             Let us now look at document 1525, if we may have it on the ELMO.

 5        Q.   You read out a part of that document which the Prosecutor asked

 6     you to read.  You have seen that the Serbian Volunteer Guards are

 7     mentioned here explicitly as a paramilitary formation linked to various

 8     criminal activities; isn't that so?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Nowhere in that document is there mention of the Serbian Radical

11     Party.  However, in para 8 on page 4 of that document -- do we have it

12     now before us?  Page 4, please, paragraph 8.  It says:

13             "By effective preventive measures, attempts at armed conflict

14     were prevented by large groups of people belonging to various

15     paramilitary formations."

16             And then there is mention of the Red Berets, Captain Dragan's

17     groups and so on, of course, local groups which essentially were prompted

18     by motives of plunder and not ideological aims as they tried to portray

19     themselves.  Are they right in saying this?

20        A.   As far as I know, the Red Berets belonged to Captain Dragan, and

21     they were formed already in Croatia.

22        Q.   Well, now you see on page 5 of this document, we see on the first

23     page that this document is addressed to Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President

24     of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  On the

25     last page, page 5, it now says in Radovan Karadzic's handwriting:

Page 13806

 1             "Continue with the enforcing of law and order.  August the 2nd,

 2     1992, Radovan Karadzic."

 3             Can you see this handwritten note?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, I do.

 5        Q.   You see that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So it follows from this - this is an authentic document - that

 8     Radovan Karadzic advised law and order to be re-established in the area

 9     of Bijeljina.  Do you know that for months after the liberation of

10     Bijeljina - I'm calling it the liberation, you can call it capture,

11     whatever you like - there were individual and group expulsions of the

12     Muslim population from Bijeljina; their property was looted, they were

13     expelled, et cetera?

14        A.   As far as I know, already at the beginning of July some persons

15     were expelled from their homes.  If you had two houses, you had to empty

16     one of them, and other persons of other ethnicity would move in.

17        Q.   Very well.  Do you know who did this?

18        A.   I was not there at the time.

19        Q.   Have you heard of someone who called himself Major Vojkan

20     Djurkovic?

21        A.   I think so.

22        Q.   The press wrote about him too.

23        A.   As far as I know, he participated in these evictions.

24        Q.   Do you believe that he was a major of the Army of Republika

25     Srpska?

Page 13807

 1        A.   As far as I know, that rank came from before the war, but he was

 2     never a military man, and it's not easy to get such a rank, even if he

 3     had been in the army.

 4        Q.   Do you know that he was a self-proclaimed major belonging to

 5     Arkan's unit?

 6        A.   Possibly, because as I was saying, he was not a member of the

 7     regular army before that, and later on if he attributed this rank to

 8     himself, that's it.

 9        Q.   However, if you left Bijeljina in 1992, had you ever heard that

10     Mirko Blagojevic, heading the Serbian Radical Party, and our party in

11     Bijeljina were constantly opposing Mauzer's arbitrariness and the

12     persecution and eviction of any Muslims from Bijeljina?  The Hague

13     Prosecution has written declarations signed by Mirko Blagojevic opposing

14     the eviction of Muslims.  Did you hear of this, as a Muslim?

15        A.   I did not hear about it, but I do know that there were major

16     conflicts between not individuals but groups in Bijeljina.  There were

17     disagreements, and the situation was aggravated by these persons, by

18     Blagojevic's group, Mauzer's group, and very frequently there were

19     clashes between them, even armed clashes.  Why, I don't know.

20        Q.   Do you know that the Serbian authorities in Pale, the authority

21     of Radovan Karadzic and the Serbian Democratic Party, never managed to

22     neutral Mauzer, though they wanted to do that and they tried to do it?

23        A.   I don't know about that.

24        Q.   And do you know that Mauzer became a member of Zoran Djindjic's

25     Democratic Party and the vice-President of that party?

Page 13808

 1        A.   That must have been later, but I don't know.

 2        Q.   Do you know that after the Dayton Agreement, Ljubisa Savic,

 3     Mauzer, as President of Djindjic's Party for Republika Srpska

 4     participated in the elections?

 5        A.   I'm very sorry, but in those days I had no contacts.  I was not

 6     aware of any parties, who belonged to who and what they were doing, so I

 7     can't say anything about that.

 8        Q.   Very well.  We'll leave the parties aside.  Do you know that when

 9     Biljana Plavsic carried out a coup in Republika Srpska and formed a

10     government, that under the influence of foreigners, Ljubisa Savic,

11     Mauzer, was appointed deputy minister of the interior and the head of the

12     police for Republika Srpska?  Did you hear of that?  You should have

13     heard that Mauzer had that position.

14        A.   I did hear that, but I can't be specific.  For the whole period

15     after Dayton, I think he was killed.  I'm not sure.  As I was saying,

16     what he was, where he was, where they were, I can't say.  I wasn't au

17     courant.

18        Q.   All right.  We won't go into who killed him, though there are

19     certain clues there too.  But is it clear to you now as a Muslim who

20     lived in Bijeljina who lived with the Serbs and who had good and bad

21     experiences with the Serbs, depending on the kind of persons they were,

22     but as a Muslim who had relations with their policemen, that someone like

23     Mauzer through expulsions of Muslims was intentionally doing a service to

24     Serb -- to these opponents of Serbs if the authority in Pale was never

25     able to settle accounts with Mauzer?

Page 13809

 1        A.   I can't say that because I really don't know whether Mauzer was

 2     under the control of Mr. Karadzic or someone else.  I don't know.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I assume that during the war or after the war, you

 4     must have been in Tuzla, and you had occasion to talk to your compatriots

 5     there.  Did you hear from Serbs who had fled Bijeljina all the things

 6     that Mauzer did to the Muslim population?

 7        A.   I didn't hear so much about Mr. Mauzer, but regarding the

 8     expulsions, I did hear who did this.

 9        Q.   You heard of Djurkovic?

10        A.   Yes, Vojkan.

11        Q.   Did you ever hear that Blagojevic or someone from the Radical

12     Party took part in the persecution and eviction of Muslims from

13     Bijeljina?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And did you hear of them publicly standing in the defence of the

16     Muslims?  Recently, a book was published in Tuzla who expressed gratitude

17     for this defence of Muslims.

18        A.   Could we slow down a little bit because --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm in a hurry because I have

20     little time left.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have five minutes left.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  I hope I'll manage to cover the

23     most important points.

24        Q.   There was reference to the destruction of a mosque.  You yourself

25     said that mosques were destroyed a certain time after the conflict; isn't

Page 13810

 1     that so?

 2        A.   Yes, a couple of months later; not all at once, but in a period

 3     between the autumn of 1992 and the spring of 1993.

 4        Q.   So the main mosques were killed about a year after the conflict?

 5        A.   Not a whole year, but five or six months later.

 6        Q.   Do you have any information as to who exactly stands behind the

 7     destruction of the mosques in Bijeljina and the surrounding villages?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   No knowledge?

10        A.   None.

11        Q.   And do you know that Mirko Blagojevic and the Serbian Radical

12     Party in Bijeljina opposed this fiercely and publicly condemned all such

13     moves?

14        A.   I'm very sorry, but I don't know.

15        Q.   I see.  You don't know that either.  You said here - and I must

16     say this surprised me a little bit, I must admit - you spoke about a man,

17     saying of him that he had given instructions to collect the bodies after

18     the conflict; is that so?  And that man, according to your statement

19     here, was called Seval Begic.  You said about him that he had headed the

20     utilities company in Bijeljina?

21        A.   No, I didn't say that.  I said that he organised the car for the

22     transport of the dead.

23        Q.   Here is what you say in your last statement, and it coincides

24     with other statements.  It's in paragraph 16:

25             "The mortuary van was the property of the service headed by

Page 13811

 1     Seval Begic.  He came to the police station and took us to two employees

 2     who were instructed to collect the bodies in town, and though I cannot

 3     remember their names, I know that they were full-time employees of the

 4     utilities company."

 5             That is what you say in your statement.  Now, what I am confused

 6     by is in another place in the same statement, you say that the Serbian

 7     police wanted to arrest Seval Begic as a member of the Presidency of the

 8     SDA, that is, the Muslim Party of Democratic Action, but he had already

 9     left the area because he knew that he was being searched for by the

10     Serbs.  How can you explain this contradiction?  Is it a contradiction

11     because there was manipulation by the Prosecution with the text of your

12     statement, or did you make such a statement?

13        A.   I must say that the police did not arrest anyone at that time,

14     and I -- this may be a mistake in the statement, but he was looked for by

15     the people from the Crisis Staff and not by the police.

16        Q.   Who was looking for him?

17        A.   The Crisis Staff of Bijeljina Municipality.

18        Q.   Yes, but on the one hand he's almost giving instructions to the

19     police, he's coming to fetch you, he's giving orders.  You said, We were

20     under the control of Seval Begic, and he gave us orders.  You said that

21     in your first statement; isn't that so?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Well, we'll find it in your statement.

24        A.   I was never under the control of Seval Begic.  Well, let's see.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Sir, in the statement, Witness,

Page 13812

 1     it is stated that upon arriving at the police station, two employees --

 2     he took two employees and instructed them to go and collect bodies in the

 3     city, so these were police employees, were they?  These were police

 4     employees, were they?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were employees of the public

 6     utilities enterprise.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I had a doubt.  Thank you

 8     for elucidating that.

 9             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Was Seval Begic the manager of that company at all?  Was he the

11     director of this communal enterprise?

12        A.   Now, whether he was a director of that company or a branch of

13     that company, but as far as I know, he worked there.  Now, whether he was

14     a supervisor or something, but the organisation went through him, the

15     organisation of providing the vehicle and the personnel.

16        Q.   According to my knowledge, a Serb, Milan Peric, was the manager

17     of the communal enterprise.

18        A.   Yes, of the communal enterprise, but then the public utilities

19     included water, heating, and everything else.

20        Q.   Very well.  But Seval Begic, according to my information, was a

21     teacher and he worked as an engineer in the Mladost pipe factory which

22     was called Teleflex.  That is where he was employed.  He was no manager

23     in the public utilities company, nor did he work there.  I find this a

24     little strange.

25        A.   I know Mr. Seval Begic personally.  But after those events,

Page 13813

 1     actually, that is when I met him.  I may have made a mistake.  I may have

 2     thought that he was a manager.  But I repeat once again, this person was

 3     the contact person between the police and the organisation of the vehicle

 4     for the transportation of bodies and the personnel engaged to do this.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, your time is up.

 6             Prosecutor, in a little time, do you have any redirect?

 7             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I have only one issue I want to discuss with the

 8     witness, and I can inform you that we are now able to play you the video

 9     where Mr. -- Ms. Biljana Plavsic arrived.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How long does it last?

11             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  I did not have a chance to see it, but it will

12     not last -- less than a minute, I guess.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right.  Let's take a look

14     at it.

15                           [Videotape played]

16             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  The stills I showed before are from this video.

17     Can I move it into evidence?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We shall give the video a

19     number now.  Since we already had the stills, let's now give the video a

20     number as well.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the video will be Exhibit P745.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Mussemeyer:

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want to ask or to know from you if you remember

24     that Mirko Blagojevic was searched by the police in the time-period of

25     1990.

Page 13814

 1        A.   I don't know exactly what you mean.  You mean were the police

 2     looking for him?

 3        Q.   I mean if the police was looking for him for crimes committed not

 4     in the former Yugoslavia but in other European countries.

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Blagojevic has been convicted for crimes in

 7     other European countries?

 8        A.   I don't know that.

 9             MR. MUSSEMEYER:  Your Honours, this would finish my redirect.  I

10     did not discuss it with the witness before.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, thank you very much

12     for having come at the request of the OTP to testify on the events that

13     took place at Bijeljina and in the surrounding area.  Thank you for

14     having answered all the questions raised by the Judges, Mr. Seselj, as

15     well as the OTP.  My best wishes to you for your return journey to your

16     country.

17             Before the hearing ends, as I already said, the next witness will

18     be heard as long as his health permits it at the hearing that begins at

19     quarter past 2.00 on Tuesday.

20             Is that there anything new, Mr. Mundis?

21             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             The witness that was scheduled to appear today, VS-1010, has now

23     been rescheduled until the 11th of February.  The witness that was listed

24     for next week, Witness VS-1066, will appear Tuesday and Wednesday of next

25     week as scheduled.  So today's witness will move down the road a week.

Page 13815

 1             I will indicate so that there is no problems next week, Witness

 2     1066, who's scheduled for Tuesday and Wednesday, is scheduled to appear

 3     in another country in legal proceedings on Friday, so it would be

 4     absolutely important for us to get him done by the close of the court

 5     session on Wednesday so that he can travel to another country to testify.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No problem.  I don't have the

 7     file right here, but how much had you asked for 1066?

 8             MR. MUNDIS:  I believe two hours.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [In English] Two hours, yes.

10             [Interpretation] So Mr. Seselj will have two hours.  We will

11     indeed need two days.  That's no problem.

12             Very well.  Thank you.  Thank you to everyone.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What shall we do on day 3 next

14     week?  We have a total of three days.

15             MR. MUNDIS:  The witness scheduled for next Thursday remains on

16     the schedule, VS-1104.  So the order will be -- next week we will have

17     1066 on Tuesday and Wednesday, 1104 on Thursday.  The following week, we

18     only sit Wednesday and Thursday because of the other trial.  We will have

19     Witness 1010 on 11 February and, if possible, Witness 1029 on the 12th of

20     February.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So everybody is

22     fully informed of how things will proceed.

23             Thank you very much.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't say that I've been

25     sufficiently informed.  I want this in writing today, if possible,

Page 13816

 1     because I don't think I've been able to memorise the whole thing.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall send you an e-mail to

 3     confirm this, but in any case, next week -- generally, you have very

 4     quick thought processes, but perhaps I'm mistaken.  Next week, 1066 will

 5     testify over two days, Tuesday and Wednesday, and then he has to leave

 6     because he has other obligations, and on Thursday we will hear 1104.

 7             Is that all right now?  Fine.  Good.

 8             Have a nice afternoon.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.16 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

12                           February, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.