Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14704

 1                           Tuesday, 18 August 2009

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             This 18 August 2009 I greet Mr. Seselj, Mr. Mundis for the

12     Prosecution.  I don't forget to associate also all those who help us, the

13     registrar, the usher, and all others.

14             Today we have a hearing which is on administrative matters.  We

15     haven't seen you, Mr. Seselj, for many weeks because of the holidays, and

16     now we are going to take stock of the questions you wish to discuss.  I'm

17     therefore going to give you the floor.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that you know in advance,

19     Your Honours, the following:  You suspended this case illegally on the

20     11th of February of this year, accepting the doubts or the suspicions of

21     the Prosecution that I and my associates exerted pressure on witnesses,

22     and then you noted in your decision that the proceedings would be

23     suspended until another Trial Chamber decides --

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Interpreters are talking

25     together at the same time.  Continue, please.

Page 14705

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Another Trial Chamber decides on

 2     the allegations made about intimidating the witnesses.  To date no

 3     proceedings have been indicate -- conducted against me or my associates

 4     for intimidation of witnesses, and you are still waiting.  The reason to

 5     adopt this decision, and I'm talking about the majority of the members of

 6     the Trial Chamber, was based on the false statement of Witness VS-008,

 7     that he had been intimidated and how.  No one directly intimidated him

 8     but my associates got in touch with him, and my associates do have the

 9     right to contact members of the Prosecution, and I had never asked for

10     the right to do that, but in principle I have the right to meet a witness

11     each time before he appears in the courtroom.  Only if the witness

12     refuses categorically to meet me then the meeting would not take place,

13     but I didn't have any need to do that, and I could have had I wished.  So

14     the meeting between members of the Defence team with a Prosecution

15     witness or a protected Prosecution witness is not something that is

16     forbidden per se.  It's permitted.

17             I would like to recall -- remind you that this witness stated

18     that none of my associates threatened him, that they were polite to him,

19     very polite, but in the general atmosphere in Serbia at the moment,

20     according to what he says, that there are frequent killings, threats,

21     intimidation, and so on, he saw himself in the situation of a frightened

22     man.

23             I would like to remind you once again that the Prosecution

24     informed here that that witness blackmailed them, either that they would

25     find accommodation for him and his wife in another country or he would

Page 14706

 1     refuse to testify according to the statement that he provided to the

 2     Prosecution.  This is something that the Prosecution informed us about

 3     here.

 4             You saw in the cross-examination that I proved that this witness

 5     was entirely a false witness.  I completely demolished his testimony.

 6     Then subsequently the Prosecution asked information from the Republic of

 7     Serbia and received the information that this witness had never worked at

 8     the Ministry of the Interior and that he had falsely introduced himself

 9     as a former security service member.  I hope that you have this

10     information in front of you, that the Prosecution provided this

11     information to you just as it had provided it to me, with certificate 613

12     dated the 14th of July.  This proves that he had never been employed in

13     the police.

14             Then there is another certificate from the Ministry of Foreign

15     Affairs that this witness was declared unfit for military service.  So he

16     had never served his military term of duty either.  Unfit for military

17     service in peacetime, meaning that in wartime he could have been only

18     engaged on work duty, his state of health permitting.

19             So you have here two pieces of evidence in writing that we are

20     talking about a false witness, two pieces of written evidence obtained by

21     the Prosecution.  You have my own cross-examination and the documents

22     that I used in the cross-examination where I proved that the witness was

23     lying and that he had never been at the Vukovar front at all.  And I'm

24     not going to speak about any other details about him so that he would not

25     be identified in public.

Page 14707

 1             So on the basis of the testimony of this false witness you made

 2     this decision.  Your decision has been left hanging in the air, because

 3     another proceedings for contempt of court is not being conducted at all

 4     because this proceeding was initiated in the first place because of

 5     allegations that I was intimidating witnesses.  None of my associates had

 6     been informed that proceedings for contempt of court had been initiated

 7     against them for harassing or intimidating the witness.

 8             Of course, another political decision was made to my detriment at

 9     a different court.  Perhaps this decision will be quashed, but in the

10     appeals I am going to disqualify it in legal and moral terms that the

11     Judges will have red ears who made such an illegal decision.

12             In that judgement the Trial Chamber never noted that I

13     intimidated any witnesses or that I published the book in question for

14     purposes of intimidating witnesses.  In the judgement it says that I just

15     enabled the public to learn the names of protected witnesses.  There is

16     no consequence of the publication, and there is never any assertion of

17     intimidation even though the theory of the Prosecution was that I had in

18     that way intimidated witnesses.  It is not stated anywhere in the

19     judgement that I -- it was my intention to intimidate witnesses or that

20     this intimidation was carried out.

21             So since this decision of yours is left hanging up in the air, I

22     don't know what else we are waiting for with this decision.  If from the

23     11th of February to the 18th of August no proceedings had been initiated,

24     what is the point of waiting?

25             There are ten remaining Prosecution witnesses.  The Prosecution

Page 14708

 1     has 5 hours and 15 minutes at their disposal.  They had asked for

 2     additional time.  There is no reason for them to be granted additional

 3     time because the Trial Chamber took over at least two Prosecution

 4     witnesses as court witnesses and used three or more hours for the

 5     examination-in-chief there.  Thus the Prosecution practically gained or

 6     saved the time for two witnesses, at least two witnesses.  So as for

 7     these 5 hours and 15 minutes, they would need to question the remaining

 8     witnesses in that time.

 9             I had made a specification at the last or the Status Conference

10     before last which witnesses are relevant and which are not, or which

11     could be relevant according to the locations of the crimes that they're

12     testifying on.  And now bringing more witnesses in such a short period of

13     time who would testify allegedly about the model of conduct but are

14     actually testifying about the material nature of the crime, which is not

15     referred to in my indictment, would be absolutely futile, pointless, and

16     that is why I am inviting you to review your decision, to make a new

17     decision whereby you would instruct that the proceedings continue and

18     that the Prosecution completes the questioning of Prosecution witnesses.

19     Otherwise, you are going to make this whole proceedings futile.  You are

20     going to continue to jeopardise my -- or violate my procedural rights, my

21     fundamental right to a fair trial and my fundamental right to a trial

22     within a reasonable period of time.

23             Perhaps you are waiting for something to happen, something that

24     nobody knows could happen.  Well, thank God I'm still alive.  I'm happy

25     to see that you are as well.  God forbid that anything would happen to

Page 14709

 1     any of the Judges.  This would immediately stop the proceedings for three

 2     months at least until a new Judge would be able to join the Trial

 3     Chamber.  So that is the only reason why I'm praying for your good

 4     health, so that the proceedings would not be stopped by some newly

 5     created objective circumstance.  Please don't understand me wrongly that

 6     I am having any emotions or sympathies or anything like that in terms of

 7     that.  I consider you as opponents in these proceedings, much more

 8     serious opponents in the proceedings than the Prosecution, because the

 9     Prosecution is something that I am dealing with very easily.  I cannot

10     deal with you as easily, and whatever I say you don't even have to reply

11     to me.  You are going to do what you are going to do, and things keep

12     continuing.  I could do my utmost and bring out any sorts of arguments.

13     However, none of that would be any good if you are not going to hear

14     these arguments.

15             This is what I have to say in the first stage, and I hope that

16     I'm going to have another opportunity to address you about something

17     else.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, first of all, Mr. Seselj,

19     the Judges of the Chamber are not your adversaries.  You are, for us, an

20     accused who is presumed innocent.  There is an indictment against you,

21     but you are presumed to be innocent.  Therefore, you are not an enemy of

22     the Judge, and we are not adversaries or enemies.  Simply, I think you

23     may have said this in another meaning.

24             Secondly, I listened carefully, as I always do, what you just

25     said, and I believe I understood that it is on line 17, page 5, that you

Page 14710

 1     request the Chamber to reconsider its decision of postponement of the

 2     procedure.  You are asking us to review this matter.

 3             Is this an oral motion which you are making to request the

 4     Chamber to review this [indiscernible], because if it is a verbal, oral,

 5     then we are obliged to answer, if it is a motion.  Of course, the

 6     Prosecution will also have to let us know his observations.  So the

 7     question is the following:  Are you requesting formally the Chamber to

 8     review, re-examine its decision on the postponement, on the adjournment?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I formally, orally demand

10     that the Trial Chamber reconsider their decision to suspend proceedings,

11     and at least in the continental law an oral has the same weight as a

12     written one.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, the Prosecution

14     would let us know its position.  Taking into account the importance of

15     the matter, perhaps you should let us -- give us your observations in

16     writing.

17             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

18     Your Honours, and to Dr. Seselj and to everyone in and around the

19     courtroom.  Perhaps written pleadings would be the best course of action

20     to take with respect to this oral application.  If I could get an

21     indication from the Trial Chamber as to when they might like to have

22     those written pleadings, I will ensure that that deadline is met.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Perhaps we could

25     have it within the next ten days.  That would be fine.

Page 14711

 1             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.  We will

 2     ensure that our filing is with the Registry within ten days from today.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, now, this being said, the

 4     Chamber will make a decision, but on another plane you do imagine --

 5     understand, Mr. Seselj, that if the Chamber took a decision, a majority

 6     decision, to postpone, there was a reason.  So it wasn't done just like

 7     that.  You will see that there were reasons to do so.  I cannot say more.

 8             So this is the first point which we have now examined.  As soon

 9     as the Chamber will have the motion -- or the observations of Mr. Mundis,

10     it will take a decision.

11             You have the floor again, Mr. Seselj.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Concerning what you said, there had

13     been reasons, of course some reasons existed, but even then they were

14     totally unconvincing to me.  For most members of the Trial Chamber, they

15     seemed convincing enough, I suppose.  Let me now go -- not go into

16     speculations.  The reasons presented to you by the Prosecution to suspend

17     proceedings were enough for you pending verifications of allegations that

18     I'm intimidating witnesses, but now you have newly arisen circumstances.

19     The newly arisen circumstances are these two documents procured by the

20     Prosecution, documents that were given me by the OTP that show

21     additionally, once again, that that protected witness lied in every way

22     in all he said in the courtroom and outside the courtroom.  He had held

23     himself out to be somebody who used to work in the state security

24     service.  Now we have proof he never worked there, not only in the state

25     security service.  He was never even a beat policeman.  He was never an

Page 14712

 1     employee of the Ministry of the Interior.  We also have proof that he was

 2     unfit for military service.

 3             This is more than enough to initiate contempt proceedings against

 4     this false witness.

 5             You have seen the documentation that I've used in the courtroom,

 6     which I used to crush his entire evidence.  You have also heard from the

 7     Prosecution that he had tried to blackmail them and bargain with them

 8     before he ever came inside a courtroom.  He said, "Unless you provide

 9     residence for me and my wife in a foreign country, I shall not give

10     testimony for the Prosecution on the basis of the statement I've given

11     you.  I will testify instead for the Defence."  We've heard that from the

12     Prosecution, and we have written proof of that.

13             I have pointed out to you indications that there have been many

14     false witnesses, and you've always found justifications for each one of

15     them, including the one who claimed that I held a rally in Mali Zvornik

16     two years before I actually held it.  You were always inclined to justify

17     them by poor memory.

18             There are no errors caused by poor memory here.  Last time, you

19     had a witness who couldn't even remember when he lived in France and what

20     he did there, but he remembered my words clearly.  And even what he wrote

21     in his notebook, he did not know when he had written it, whether

22     contemporaneously or subsequently.  And he cut out a dark figure who

23     stands behind much of the evidence presented here.  You will remember him

24     perhaps, a general.  The Prosecution never brings him here to testify,

25     not even in the Vukovar troika case, but he goes through many of their

Page 14713

 1     cases like a constant thread.

 2             There are many newly arisen circumstances, as I said, on which

 3     you have to make up your minds and review your decision.  Either stick to

 4     the one you've made or make a new one.  It is up to me to make my case

 5     and let you decide.

 6             You see, I'm in a very favourable position here.  Time is working

 7     in my favour.  Nothing new can happen that can add to the charges already

 8     level -- levelled against me, and you can see that there's actually

 9     nothing weighing against me.  There is not a single piece of evidence

10     that can link me to a single war crime, not a shred of evidence.  Find

11     just one that would be convincing enough and I would immediately

12     stipulate to the entire indictment, but there is not one.  So now either

13     a miracle will happen, or something will become known that nobody knew

14     before, or a new crime will come to light that could be ascribed to me.

15     For instance, in the war in Afghanistan, in Iraq, whatever.  You can

16     charge me with supporting the Taliban or supporting the Iraqi insurgency

17     against American occupation.  I will gladly admit to these crimes and

18     will shorten these proceedings.  But as far as the war in the Balkans are

19     concerned, you cannot associate me with a single war crime, and I think

20     that's crystal clear to you.

21             It's high time to draw this proceeding to a close.  I've been

22     here nearly seven years.  There's not a court in the US or anywhere that

23     would not acquit me just because I've been here seven years.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

25     continues] ... what you've just said.  I had a question to ask you.  I

Page 14714

 1     was waiting for the end, but I'm going to ask you straight away.  When

 2     we -- when the Chamber -- the Chamber has not yet decided anything, but

 3     suppose that we get the end of the proceedings, all the witness have come

 4     or not come, and the Prosecution's argument is finished today, do you

 5     intend to use the procedure of Article 98 bis, according to which you

 6     will say that the Prosecutor has no argument to support his views, or do

 7     you think it's too early?  Because as you know, Article 98 bis enables

 8     the Chamber ex officio to decide a case, but it can also be the request

 9     for the Defence.  So I would like to know, in order to reflect on the

10     matter personally, whether you have already envisaged a moment when you

11     yourself would give your own argument in order to show that the

12     Prosecution did not bring enough evidence sufficient to justify a

13     conviction, capable of supporting a conviction as said in Rule 98 bis.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like you to remind you,

15     Mr. President, that you had already asked me this a few months ago and

16     that I had answered in the affirmative at that time that I am already

17     getting ready when the time comes to state my position on the 98 bis.

18     Now you can do it orally.  Before you had to do it writing.  So I'm going

19     to ask you to give me the adequate time so that I can state my arguments

20     why I consider that the Prosecution failed to prove any of the items in

21     the indictment.  For example, for Hrtkovci, there is no attack.  It's

22     pointless to discuss anything else if there has been no attack.  Yes, of

23     course when we come to that.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

25     continues] ... you'll do that when the moment comes, but thank you for

Page 14715

 1     confirming your intention.  This is good news already.  Therefore, you

 2     have the floor once again.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The other thing I would like to say

 4     is actually just a matter of information.  I warned you on a number of

 5     occasions, gentlemen, Judges, that various intelligence services were

 6     interfering in the proceedings being conducted against me.  Of course I

 7     did not accuse any of you of directly being instrumentalised in that

 8     sense, but there are certain activities around the edges whose objective

 9     is to keep me for as long as possible away from the political life in

10     Serbia.  And the second objective is that during my absence to destroy

11     the Serbian Radical Party.

12             You've seen from Carla Del Ponte's book what the reasons were for

13     issuing the indictment against me.  You've seen that famous sentence of

14     Zoran Djindjic, "Take Seselj away and don't bring him back again."  And

15     then I presented information of the involvement of the British and the US

16     intelligence services in these matters.  For example, how Morton

17     Abramowitz, the famous US intelligence official, the US intelligence

18     agency, began to make advances to Aleksandar Vucic and so on.  Then I

19     have information which I think, Mr. President, will be of particular

20     interest to you because I'm talking about the involvement of the French

21     intelligence service, one of the most prominent --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

23     continues] ... [overlapping speakers] ... this.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again I would like to say that I

25     absolutely believe that this has nothing to do personally with you.  It

Page 14716

 1     has to do with the French service, the French official policy, and with

 2     those who are pulling strings from the rear in this Tribunal.  That

 3     person is called Arnaud Danjean, and now he has become a member of the

 4     European Parliament.  For years he was engaged in espionage missions in

 5     the Balkans, in Kosovo.  From what I hear, they have even named a street

 6     after him because they believe him to be worthy of that.  And according

 7     to the Serbian press, he's a close friend of Nicholas Sarkozy, the

 8     president of France, who unfortunately not stayed true to the De Gaulle

 9     ideals.  Then we have the Serbian weekly "Nin" which wrote about that.

10     Many other newspapers wrote about that blitz for example.  Well, this is

11     something that is being written about right now, because there is

12     testimony by a man who was pretty highly placed in the Montenegrin

13     regime, Ratko Knezevic is talking about meetings of Tomislav Nikolic and

14     Aleksandar Vucic in the Paris Ritz hotel with the king of the Balkan

15     tobacco smugglers Stanko Subotic, Cane, about the role of Arnaud Danjean

16     in these proceedings of trying to come to engage for their purposes some

17     of my associates and to engage the Serbian Radical Party in these

18     matters.  So these intelligence services, the French, the American and

19     the US, are involved in this recruitment.  This process has vast

20     political implications, and there is a danger here that you three Judges

21     are exposed to.

22             I am not going to talk about what your personal preoccupations

23     may or may not be, but you would need to take care about the perception

24     of the public.  It is not enough for you to be exercising justice in the

25     courtroom.  Perhaps the three of you are convinced totally that you are

Page 14717

 1     implementing justice even if you disagree amongst yourselves, but keep in

 2     mind the public must have the impression that justice is being

 3     administered truly in the courtroom.  All of the Serbian press is writing

 4     about this day after day and you can get translations through your

 5     services of these articles and so on and so forth to see for yourselves.

 6     I assume you are partially informed about previous events, the objective

 7     of the Western forces is for me never to return to Serbia again, and then

 8     if this cannot be secured, at least for me never to go back again, at

 9     least to delay this return as much as possible.  Enormous sums of money

10     have been offered to some of my former closest associates.  Some of them

11     they did manage to recruit, but they did not manage to break the

12     Serbian Radical Party.

13             Perhaps some would warn you to complete the proceedings as soon

14     as possible had the break-up of the Serbian Radical Party succeeded last

15     year.  It did not succeed.  Some at the top of the Tribunal are already

16     issuing statements including the President of the Tribunal that the

17     Tribunal simply does not know what to do with me.  And if the Tribunal as

18     such does not know what to do with me, I am asking you as three Judges

19     who are personally responsible for the gravity and professionalism of

20     these proceedings call upon you not to be susceptible to any influences

21     from the side and to make sure that the public has the perception that

22     these proceedings are going to be brought to their normal closure so that

23     the proceedings at least have the perception of regularity by being

24     completed within a reasonable period of time.  This reasonable period of

25     time has expired a long time ago.

Page 14718

 1             Well, when I am talking about a more reasonable period of time,

 2     I'm thinking of something that would be more reasonable than the totally

 3     unreasonable period of time.  That would mean that the proceedings go on

 4     for at least another year and a half or so.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So regarding the second point,

 6     i.e., the impact -- or the influence of the secret services on the Judges

 7     and the time period concerning your -- the proceedings, you should know

 8     that nobody got in touch with us.  We have no connections with anyone,

 9     and if ever any fool tried to influence the Judges, I would be the first

10     one to disclose that.  I can reassure you on this point.

11             You're expecting decisions from the Chamber.  We will take the

12     decisions.  If you are guilty, we will declare you guilty.  If you're

13     innocent, we will declare you innocent, and all this will be based on the

14     evidences presented by the Prosecution and based on the evidence you may

15     also bring here.  So you should not be worried.

16             Personally, I have been working in a court for more than

17     30 years, and in an international court for more than six years, and I'm

18     still waiting for someone who would dare say -- think that he can exert

19     any pressure on me.  I believe that this will never happen.  The Chamber

20     on various occasions has proven to you that it is completely independent

21     from the Prosecution's office, the registrar or yourself or anyone else.

22             Now, you may be worried.  This is only legitimate.  The fact that

23     you want to go back home is understandable.  The fact that you want to

24     continue and play a political role is also normal but all this can only

25     happen only once the Chamber has made a decision and rendered justice.

Page 14719

 1     This is what I wanted to say regarding the second point.

 2             Any other issue you would like to raise?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to briefly emphasise

 4     that I was not suspecting you of connections with the service.  What

 5     happened here is that it just happened coincidentally that the French

 6     intelligence service is also mentioned besides the other two that I

 7     mentioned.  And you know, Mr. President, that even when I disagree with

 8     your positions and confront you, I do not believe even then that you are

 9     not behaving honourably.  So, so far I have not had any reason to doubt

10     this impression of mine.  I also never said of your colleagues that they

11     were behaving dishonourably either.  I am just drawing your attention to

12     the broader context in which all of this is taking place, and I am

13     emphasising what even many other second instance judgements at this

14     Tribunal emphasise, that it is not enough for justice to be administered

15     only in the courtroom.  We must also make sure that the public has the

16     perception that justice is being administered really in -- and truly in

17     the courtroom.  This is very important.

18             And as for Carla Del Ponte, who is a precious witness of mine and

19     who is testifying how the indictment was issued against me, I have

20     nothing to worry about that, and I'm not worried about anything at the

21     moment.  I would be worried and concerned if I were to know in my heart

22     that there was a possibility of me being linked with any war crimes.  In

23     that case I would be concerned.  But since I am convinced that there is

24     no possibility -- and in this situation I'm also achieving some sort of

25     historical role of mine.  This is something -- these proceedings before

Page 14720

 1     The Hague Tribunal are going to be remembered no matter how they end.

 2     They will be remembered indeed already by a number of things.  It is

 3     different from any other proceedings and you are aware of that

 4     yourselves, starting from the staff of the Tribunal who are scratching

 5     their heads the minute my name is mentioned and on.

 6             Everybody in a way is impressed, some by the difficulties that

 7     they're having to face by working on this case, some by the troubles they

 8     are experiencing holding me in the Scheveningen gaol, or the Dutch police

 9     who are transporting me and so on and so forth.  This particular process

10     is already very deeply rooted in the history of international criminal

11     law, and it will not fail to become part of all the law books.  And even

12     if I die tomorrow, I would have achieved a very important historical

13     role.  So I have no reason to worry.

14             Of course, as for my private reasons, you know that I have never

15     referred to them in the courtroom, and I'm not going to do that now.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  You have dealt

17     with all the issues on the agenda.  I now would like to give the floor to

18     the Prosecution.

19             Mr. Seselj, I would like to tell you as far as the future dates

20     are concerned that I cannot for the time being give you any specific

21     date, because September is a very busy month.  We have six trials going

22     on right now, and my colleague will be starting a new trial too.

23     Therefore, the -- looking at the calendar this morning, I was not able

24     to -- I'm not able to tell you that we would meet on that or that date.

25     We could meet at 8.00 some morning because we could very well have a

Page 14721

 1     meeting at 8.00 in the morning.  Very often I am here at 6.00 in the

 2     morning, so if need be we could have an early-morning session.

 3     Otherwise, I would like to draw the attention of the Registry on this

 4     point so as to book a day in October, the beginning of October, so that

 5     we meet and take stock of the situation.  This is what I wanted to tell

 6     you concerning the future session.

 7             Mr. Mundis, anything you would like to add?

 8             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The Prosecution has

 9     nothing further to add, but I would like to take this opportunity to

10     alert the Trial Chamber to the fact that this is likely to be the last

11     time I appear in this case.  I will be leaving the Tribunal on Friday of

12     this week.  It is likely that I will be back for a short period of time

13     later in the fall on a special project, but it is unlikely that I will be

14     appearing before the Chamber, and I wanted to take this opportunity to

15     thank the Trial Chamber for its attention throughout the past period of

16     time that I've appeared before Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough, Mr. Mundis.  I

18     just heard that you're going to leave us, and all I can do is on behalf

19     of all my colleagues wish you well in your future professional life, and

20     I hope it will be very successful and to the best of your interests, and

21     it is true that lately several people have been leaving the court as --

22     the Tribunal.  As you know, this Tribunal will disappear soon.  The

23     Security Council has renewed the terms of reference of the Judges for

24     this case until the completion of this case, but it is obvious that when

25     all the cases have been judged, all these -- the Tribunal will disappear,

Page 14722

 1     and I understand that all those working in this Tribunal are trying to

 2     find a position elsewhere, and I hope they will be able to continue their

 3     career in the future.  And as you know, our best wishes accompany you,

 4     and I hope that your colleagues will, nevertheless, stay with us, because

 5     if everybody leaves the Tribunal, I do not know who will be sitting on

 6     the other side of the bar.

 7             That's what I wanted to say.

 8             Mr. Seselj, this is the end of today's session.  I give you the

 9     floor.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few words in conclusion.

11     Since I see that the Prosecution is disintegrating from within, true

12     chaos is beginning to reign there.  I have to say that I'm facing chaos

13     in my own Defence team, although not for internal reasons but for outside

14     reasons.  To this day my two legal advisors have been suspended in a way.

15     Zoran Krasic still has no access to confidential documents.  I do not

16     have privileged communication with Slavko Jerkovic, so I have no

17     privileged, secure line to my associates, and in this way they have been

18     practically suspended for completely arbitrary reasons because there is

19     no evidence that they violated the rules of conduct.

20             I must draw your attention that if the trial does continue, this

21     issue has to be resolved, too, and my cooperation with my legal advisors

22     has to be restored.

23             As of September last year, I have been unable to have privileged

24     communication with them on a secure telephone line.  They did come to

25     visit me once but it was in a sort of gas chamber in Scheveningen,

Page 14723

 1     observed by cameras.

 2             A new legal advisor is visiting me, Boris Aleksic, and another

 3     associate, Marina Raguz, from time to time.  I have also a new legal

 4     advisor, Dejan Mirovic.  But I cannot normally function without

 5     Zoran Krasic and Slavko Jerkovic.  Not the way I would like to.  Of

 6     course I can cope even if you deprive me of all my associates.  If you

 7     isolate me completely I will still be superior to the Prosecution, but I

 8     cannot be as efficient as I would like to.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On this point should we

10     consider that you are once again asking the Chamber to reconsider its

11     decision regarding Mr. Krasic's suspension, Zoran Krasic, as a privileged

12     colleague?  Is that what you're asking us, to reconsider our decision?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  So this is what you're

15     asking.  And as you know, the Registrar was the one who suspended --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

17     ... [overlapping speakers] ... I need a secure line with him, a

18     privileged line.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  Regarding

20     Mr. Jerkovic, we would like to be able to have a secure line with him.  I

21     checked that on the transcript to make sure it is mentioned.

22             Fair enough.  The Chamber will meet tomorrow and we will study

23     all these points.

24             Regarding your request or the two requests of Mr. Seselj about

25     Krasic and Jerkovic, Mr. Mundis, anything you would like to add?

Page 14724

 1             MR. MUNDIS:  Your Honours, perhaps the Prosecution might make a

 2     brief written submission on that point.  It's -- I'm not in a position at

 3     this stage to indicate what our views might be on the matter, but we will

 4     certainly do so in writing if we have anything that we think needs to be

 5     put before the Trial Chamber.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  I'll check with

 7     my colleagues to see how much time we can give you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber will give you one

10     week to prepare this.

11             MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I said, since we have dealt

13     with all the issues on the agenda, we will now adjourn the meeting and I

14     wish you all a very nice afternoon.

15                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

16                           at 3.02 p.m.