Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14725

 1                           Thursday, 10 September 2009

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor

 9     versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  Today is

11     Thursday, 10th of September, 2009.  I would like to greet Mr. Seselj.  I

12     would like to greet our colleagues from the Prosecution, Mr. Marcussen

13     and Ms. Biersay, and I would like to greet their associates.  And I would

14     also like to greet all the staff helping us in this courtroom.

15             Mr. Seselj, we are holding this hearing today despite the fact

16     that last time I had said to you that we would meet again in October,

17     given that there were not many courtrooms available since several trials

18     are being held at the same time.  In the meantime, on the

19     27th of August, 2009, the Prosecutor issued a public request with

20     confidential annexes regarding the issue of your representation.  The

21     Prosecutor wanted the Chamber to impose a counsel on you.

22             We have looked into this motion and I hope that it was translated

23     into your language, and the Chamber felt that we had to see you very

24     quickly in order to see whether you are planning to answer to this motion

25     either by written submissions or by having an oral submission.

Page 14726

 1             But from a personal point of view, I have to say that given the

 2     importance of this motion, I do believe that it will be highly advisable

 3     for you to make written submissions.  Why?  Well, because it could be

 4     possible for the Chamber of Appeals that -- for the Chamber of Appeals to

 5     be either seized by the Prosecutor or by yourself.  So we are holding

 6     this hearing to see what is your intention as regards this motion and, of

 7     course, to give you the floor if you have other issues to touch upon.

 8             So, Mr. Seselj, I give you the floor regarding this motion to

 9     impose a counsel on you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How can I respond to that request

11     since I did not receive it, Your Honour?  I was never issued with that

12     request.  I heard that in the press there were articles dealing with the

13     matter and with the request that was resubmitted by the Prosecution;

14     however, I have not received that request.  In principle, I think that

15     such a request on the part of the OTP is nothing less than abuse of the

16     proceedings.  The OTP is asking for the impossible.  They are asking for

17     my right to defence be taken away from me.  This is not possible in a

18     civilised world.  I can be the worst of criminals, it is already assumed

19     that I am criminal, and that's why I'm on trial.

20             I could have even breached procedural rules; however, for as long

21     as I behave in an articulate and normal manner in the courtroom, you

22     cannot deprive me of my right to defence.  In other words, my behaviour

23     in the courtroom should be non-articulated, immoral, in other words, such

24     as to prevent a normal proceedings.  In this courtroom, you have not

25     encountered such behaviour.  You may have been cross with me when I told

Page 14727

 1     you something that you didn't want to hear, that was unpleasant for your

 2     ears, you could have felt hurt; however, you cannot deny that everything

 3     that was said was part of a very civilised communication process.

 4             I have never prevented normal procedure, and since I have never

 5     done that you cannot deprive me of my right to defence.  The press says

 6     that one of the arguments on the side of the Prosecution is the fact that

 7     I have been convicted of contempt of court.  Can you see how

 8     unprofessional the OTP are?  They don't have any clue about the law.

 9     That conviction is still not valid.  I have announced that I will appeal

10     and my appeal is pending.  I'm going to file my appeal within the

11     stipulated dead-line.  The OTP cannot invoke that conviction until it

12     becomes valid.  And even if it was valid, this is not a valid argument

13     for them to deprive me of my right to defence, because the book that I

14     was convicted for was published before the start of this trial, and if

15     this book jeopardises this trial, then you have to annul the entire

16     course of the trial so far.

17             Let's put this aside.  The fact that that conviction is against

18     the law that in no serious court of law it could be upheld.  I have been

19     convicted for its contents, and its contents consist of a number of

20     documents, none of the documents that I myself authored.  First of all,

21     you -- there are my submission to the Trial Chamber which are public.  My

22     objections to the indictment which are public.  The paper -- you don't

23     have the patience to listen to me?  Well, very well, then.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I do not want to interrupt you.

25     First of all, you are telling us that you haven't received or read this

Page 14728

 1     motion.  We are on the 10th of September.  The submissions were made on

 2     the 27th of August, so it's almost two weeks ago, so I don't understand

 3     why this has not been translated and brought to your attention.  So it

 4     goes without saying that it will be upon the date of receipt of this

 5     motion that you will be in a position to send your submissions or to let

 6     us know that you have the intention to answer.  That is for one.

 7             Secondly, we are not here to talk again about the trial of the

 8     Trial Chamber II.  The Appeals Chamber is looking into your appeal and no

 9     sentence or no decision has been made.  This is clear for everyone.  Just

10     to clarify this, and you have touched upon the issue based on press

11     articles, and for once they were well informed.  The main basis for this

12     motion is that you were sentenced of contempt of court, and as far as the

13     Prosecution is concerned, it bears some consequences; namely, that you

14     should not be able to carry on defending yourself.  And, therefore, we

15     should impose a counsel on you.

16             This is the point of view of the Prosecution which is developed

17     in their written submissions.  And this is on this that I would like or

18     that the Chamber would like for you to answer either by written

19     submissions or by an oral position.  And my colleague is going to add

20     some points.

21             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to have some point

22     of clarification.  I would like to point out that this is not a motion

23     from August.  It's an additional document from a motion.  Unfortunately,

24     I do not remember the date of this other motion.  Have you not received

25     the first motion?  Or are you saying that you have not received the

Page 14729

 1     additional documents to this motion?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not received the motion and

 3     I've not even been aware of the existence of any additional documents.

 4     Judging by the press, that was towards the end of August.  That's when

 5     that motion was made public on the internet, but not in its entirety.  As

 6     far as I've been informed, some of the parts of that motion have not even

 7     been made available to the accused.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to ask a couple of

 9     questions to the Prosecution.  So I would like Mr. Marcussen to clarify

10     some points.  I would like to know whether the motion of the

11     27th of August, 2009, is a real motion which would come as an addition to

12     previous motions on which the Chamber had decided to postpone their

13     decision, or as my colleague was saying, was there a motion prior to the

14     27th of August?  So Ms. Biersay or Mr. Marcussen, could you answer that,

15     please.

16             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, what we filed

17     in August was a supplement to the Prosecution's motion dated the

18     28th of July, 2008.  Now, I'm having this verified, but from memory,

19     there are three versions of that motion filed, and ex parte confidential

20     version; a confidential version, which the accused should have received;

21     and a public version.  Now I think it might simply be due to the fact

22     that quite a long time has past and maybe the accused has forgotten that

23     motion was filed.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, given

25     that I know the procedure very well, I have no right to make any mistake.

Page 14730

 1     When I talked about the motion of the 27th of August, I thought that it

 2     was a new motion which was in addition to prior motions, but there wasn't

 3     a motion that would have been issued before July or before June, so I was

 4     referring to all prior motions.  But as far as I'm concerned, it's very

 5     clear now, and I would like to thank the Prosecution for having clarified

 6     that, as far as they are concerned, and I agree with them, the main

 7     motion was dated 28th of July, 2008, and the -- this motion is an

 8     additional motion compared to the main motion.

 9             So this is why I'm asking you, given that you were aware of the

10     previous motions, if you -- I'm asking you whether you are planning to

11     answer to the motion of the 27th of August, but given you've just told us

12     that you have not received it, it is becoming difficult because I cannot

13     really go any further.  First of all, you have to peruse all the

14     paragraphs of this motion, and then you can voice your point of view,

15     given that this motion is a 2.545 words and has 34 paragraphs, it will

16     take awhile.

17             2.545 words.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be permitted to say something

19     else?  First of all, I've not forgotten anything.  If anybody forgets

20     something in this courtroom, it's the OTP, not me.  I remember very well

21     the request that was filed on the 28th of July last year and I responded

22     orally to that request.  And that request also had a lot of ex parte

23     parts.  It seems that this annex or addition of which I hear the first

24     time, I hear for the first time that the new motion is in the form of an

25     addition to the request that was filed a year ago.  And that new motion

Page 14731

 1     also has ex parte parts.  Here we are not talking about whether I'm going

 2     to respond or not.

 3             The question that is raised here is whether you, as Judges, will

 4     permit yourself to look at a motion with a lot of ex parte details and

 5     decide on my essential procedural right.  You have a motion filed by the

 6     OTP to which I cannot respond because I'm not aware of all of its parts,

 7     because they are all ex parte.  They are eternally secret and

 8     confidential for me, and you have to make a decision.

 9             This is a Kafka-like process.  If you agree to decide on that

10     motion with its ex parte parts, then you have accepted to be in charge of

11     a Kafkian process.  I don't know what to respond to and I will not

12     respond to the OTP motions that have ex parte parts or ex parte

13     additions.  I will never, ever again do that.  I'm not interested in such

14     motions and request.  They are not existent for me.

15             And as for you, you do whatever; it's up to you.  You know that I

16     have not expected anything good from you in principle and that hasn't

17     changed.  You do whatever.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I cannot let you

19     say -- well, you know, you have a great deal of freedom of speech and I

20     will never argue against that, but when you say, I do not expect anything

21     good from you, I'm actually flabbergasted as to what I hear from you.  I

22     have to say, I'm astonished.  You expected from Judges to issue informed

23     decisions and if you don't agree, you can make appeal.  By saying this,

24     you actually suspect that we are partial against you, and I cannot let

25     this happen and I cannot let this be said.  Please wait and see.

Page 14732

 1             There is a motion that has been filed by the Prosecutor, for what

 2     its worth.  You will say what you have to say and the Chamber will hand

 3     down a decision, and you will wait and you will see what happens.  If the

 4     decision is not in your agreement, then you can make appeal.  If you are

 5     happy with the decision, then you say nothing.  So before you decide on

 6     our behaviour preemptively, wait and see.

 7             We cannot really go any further on this issue since you have not

 8     been made aware of the motion, and I invite the translation services to

 9     be quick.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Mr. President, a majority

11     of the members of this Trial Chamber have already made a decision on

12     staying these proceedings and their decision also has a lot of ex parte

13     parts, so I've never learned of all the arguments that were used in

14     making the decision on putting this trial on hold for a number of months.

15     How can I appeal against somebody if I'm not aware of what it is that I

16     have to appeal against?

17             I value all that, but I'm looking at you as a Trial Chamber as a

18     whole and I'm looking at you as a materialised Hague Tribunal here in

19     this courtroom.  For me you are The Hague Tribunal.  It is you that I

20     meet as The Hague Tribunal and you know only too well what I think about

21     The Hague Tribunal.  I've never hidden that.  And this is the integral

22     part of the strategy of my Defence.  On every occasion that I have, I

23     emphasise what I think about The Hague Tribunal.  So I don't see that

24     there's any reason for anybody to be surprised.

25             If you again reach a decision based on the request that contains

Page 14733

 1     ex parte parts and ex parte additions, and then if your decision also

 2     contains new ex parte parts, what are we talking about?  You can find

 3     this only in Kafka.  I've not encountered that in any law book.  I have

 4     only found this in Franz Kafka's novel.  I have not encountered that

 5     anywhere else.

 6             You are making a decision on the request of the -- of which I'm

 7     not aware.  It is impossible anywhere else.  Not in Italy, not in

 8     Denmark, not in France.  In the proceedings against me, there shouldn't

 9     be a single secret.  The Rules of Procedure and Evidence enable temporary

10     confidentiality when it comes to the protection of the witnesses, but at

11     the end of the day, I have to be disclosed all that.  How can there be

12     secrets for me in the proceedings that are conducted against me?  It's

13     impossible.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, thanks for your viewpoints.  You know

15     very well, being a lawyer, that ex parte submissions in criminal

16     proceedings is not uncommon.  It exists in Danish law, in French law, in

17     Italian law, and even in your own system.  So that should not come as a

18     surprise to you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me, the interpretation is missing.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There may be ex parte motions, but

22     they concern some urgent measures that have to be taken.  And it's

23     impossible to conduct a trial with ex parte portions thereof.  That's

24     impossible.  So if a party files a motion ex parte asking you to do

25     something to prevent some negative effects or to prevent something that

Page 14734

 1     might cause irreparable damage, and it demands an urgent response on your

 2     part, that's okay.  And usually they are filed in the pre-trial stage.

 3     Once the trial begins, please explain to me in Danish criminal law what

 4     can be done ex parte, and in such a way that defence is never made aware

 5     of the contents.

 6             Here we are talking about my fundamental right.  I either am

 7     entitled to defend myself or not.  The fact that you are constantly being

 8     pushed and pressurised to assign counsel to me, well, it's been

 9     calculated in order to strip me of my right to defend myself because

10     nobody, no Defence counsel that you could assign to me would not be able

11     to defend me properly.  You would assign to me a spy from the OTP who

12     would do everything they could to argue in favour of the Prosecution and

13     to conduct this trial as has been planned, and there's no other way.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, let me speak for my own part, and I

15     do not know the position of my fellow Judges, but I have been quite

16     impressed by the way in which you have been able to defend yourself, and

17     as of this moment, no decision has been made to impose counsel on you.

18             The Prosecution has filed a submission to have such counsel

19     imposed because of the fact that you have been convicted of contempt, and

20     the meeting today was called because the Chamber wanted to hear your

21     position on that issue.  That's all.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, do you

23     want to conclude on this topic?  I fully share what Judge Harhoff has

24     just said.  He has told you exactly what is the situation at this stage.

25     Until now, the Chamber has not imposed a counsel on you, as you are

Page 14735

 1     aware.  Secondly, the Prosecutor has filed a motion on the

 2     27th of August.  We are waiting for your position on this motion, and the

 3     Chamber will hands down a decision.  So you cannot pre-empt our decision

 4     in one way or another.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not intend, Mr. President, to

 6     pre-empt your decision.  As regards the assignment of Defence counsel to

 7     me, you do know what my general view is, what my position is, and you

 8     know what I am prepared to do to defend my right to defend myself, to

 9     safe-guard it.

10             If you deliver to me a Prosecution motion or an addendum to a

11     motion with ex parte parts, let me tell you in advance, I do not have any

12     intention to responds to that.  I'm not interested in any OTP motions

13     with ex parte parts.  For as long as I'm not able to read the entirety of

14     the motion, that motion is non-existent.  I will sign -- I will confirm

15     the receipt of the motion in Serbian but I will not respond to it, so you

16     can rule right away.  Why should you wait for me respond if I tell you in

17     advance that I will not respond to any motions that contain ex parte

18     parts?  There's no reason for you to wait.  You can rule immediately.

19     You can rule today, in fact.  I have told you what the repercussions will

20     be of a decision which might possibly, let me stress possibly might,

21     strip me of my right to defend myself and I have let you know what it is.

22             I hope that you are aware of it, and I hope that as professional

23     Judges, as professional -- as law professionals who are well regarded in

24     your countries, that you are aware that there is no foundation

25     whatsoever, no reason whatsoever for you to strip me of my right to

Page 14736

 1     defend myself, and that nobody who would appear here in this courtroom to

 2     figure as my Defence counsel could not do the job.  They could not defend

 3     me, they would just be a figure head, acting, an actor pretending that

 4     they are defending myself.  And we have seen such actors play-acting as

 5     Defence counsel here in this -- in many courtrooms here, in many trials.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, the Registrar's

 7     informed me that you will receive translation today of this motion.  You

 8     have pointed out your position.  It's on the transcript.  So the Chamber

 9     will look into this.  You say that if the motion contains ex parte parts,

10     you will not answer this motion.  So everything is very clear.  This was

11     the main topic that we wanted to handle today with you, and this is why

12     we organised this hearing.

13             So, Mr. Seselj, I would like to know whether there are other

14     topics that you would like to touch upon, bearing in mind that of course

15     we saw each other not so long ago, there are other problems that may have

16     cropped up in the meantime.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have two things to say to

18     you.  First, I have to keep the promise that I gave you, that at every

19     session I will draw your attention to the fact that other fundamental

20     rights that I possess are being violated, primarily the right to be tried

21     expeditiously in a reasonable time, and this has been violated, and I

22     have been here in the Detention Unit for such a long time and also I'm

23     convicted for contempt of court.  And I'm discriminated against when

24     you -- in comparison with other people who are on trial here in this

25     manner.

Page 14737

 1             Secondly, some ten days ago I filed a request to the Registry,

 2     and this regards the next week, Thursday and Friday next week, I asked to

 3     be allowed to receive a visit by Zoran Krasic, Slavko Jerkovic,

 4     Boris Aleksic, and Marina Raguz as my legal advisors and case managers in

 5     the main trial, and Dejan Mirovic as my legal advisor in the contempt of

 6     court proceedings.  And since a year has passed since the adjournment or,

 7     rather, the suspension of two of my legal associates, and prohibiting me

 8     from establishing and maintaining proper communications with them, based

 9     on a false claim by Tomislav Nikolic that I abused the privileged

10     communication for political ends.  Since none of it has been proven,

11     there is not a single shred of evidence that might disqualify either

12     Zoran Krasic or Slavko Jerkovic, I demanded that their status as legal

13     advisors be restored with all the rights that stem from it, and I have

14     yet to receive a response.

15             Secondly, yesterday, the deputy warden of the Detention Unit came

16     and handed me a letter from the Prosecution but took it away afterwards.

17     In this letter the Prosecution demands that I return to them a list of

18     videotapes that they have.  It's the 6.600 hours of video recordings that

19     were handed to me, but this was not done in good faith because it was

20     impossible to do so in the conditions that were set up.

21             The Prosecution now tells me that this is a wrong list and I

22     should return it to them so that they can give me the right list.  And I

23     have a feeling that the Prosecution now feels bad about giving me the

24     first list because they now informed me that they have some recordings

25     that they don't want me to know about.  I haven't yet been able to

Page 14738

 1     identify what those tapes are but I have asked my case manager to look

 2     into it since the whole list is in Belgrade.  And I also told her that

 3     she should keep it safe because if the Prosecution asks the pro-Western

 4     regime in Belgrade to look for it there, there is no legal foundation for

 5     them asking me to return the list to them.  If the list was labeled

 6     confidential, I will not make it public, but why should I return it to

 7     them?

 8             Let me remind you that in 2005, at the request of the

 9     Prosecution, my cell was raided and documents were seized, documents that

10     the Prosecution itself submitted to me, and they removed some documents

11     that the Prosecution didn't want me to have.  And those documents were

12     later on given to the Registry for safekeeping, and I now want to renew

13     my request that those documents be given back to me, the documents that

14     were seized, because I believe those documents to be very important for

15     me case.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj.  You are

17     touching upon quite a few questions and I'm going to try and list them

18     down so that we don't forget to answer to any of them.

19             This is news to us.  You have just told us that you had written

20     to the Registry and you told them that you wanted to meet on Thursday and

21     Friday your legal associates.  I would like to know whether the Registry

22     answered or not?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With me, not with them, because the

24     interpretation that I received is that they should meet with them.  Not

25     with them, with me.  They should meet with me, the Registry has yet to

Page 14739

 1     respond to this request.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  Very well.  So

 3     you did not get an answer from the Registry, I understand.  It is our

 4     opinion -- but let me confer with my fellow Judges and I will tell you

 5     immediately what is our position on that meeting.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Seselj, I

 8     conferred with me fellow Judges and the Trial Chamber's position is very

 9     clear on this.  You are absolutely -- you should actually meet your

10     associates.  You are perfectly -- you have the right for that.

11             But the Chamber would like to say the following:  Concerning Mr.

12     Krasic, the Trial Chamber said that you cannot -- Mr. Krasic concerning

13     Mr. Krasic, the Trial Chamber believes that you cannot tell him any

14     confidential information, but nothing forbids you to meet with him and to

15     inform him on the case.  You may talk to him about this trial, of course,

16     but since our decision has been rendered, you cannot communicate to him

17     any confidential information.  But there are no -- you don't have that

18     many confidential information anyway, so nothing opposes you.  We do not

19     disagree with you meeting with him and the Registry will answer to you on

20     this.

21             And I would like to add that the decision that we had rendered

22     applied also to Mr. Jerkovic.  I don't know if on the list that you have

23     given us --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

25     ... one word.

Page 14740

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, there's not a single shred

 3     of confidential information that Zoran Krasic has not yet been made aware

 4     of, so I would like to somebody to draw my attention to it if there is

 5     such piece of information.  Even the witness that we heard in closed

 6     session in July, Zoran Krasic knows everything about him because

 7     documents had been delivered before that.  So there is not a single

 8     important confidential piece of information that he is not aware of.

 9             If the Prosecution now calls a new witness that was not on the

10     initial list requesting full confidentiality, then it would make sense

11     for you to insist that Zoran Krasic should not be made aware of it.  But

12     what is the problem now?  If you say that Zoran Krasic cannot be told any

13     confidential information, the Registry will use that just as it had the

14     last time, about a year ago, to convene a meeting that is videotaped in a

15     small chamber that looked like a gas chamber after several hours of

16     conversation, because there was not enough air.  So what is the point?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  In any case, the

18     Trial Chamber confirms that you may meet with your associates with the

19     exception of course, of communicating confidential documents, but to my

20     knowledge there were no confidential documents since then.  I do not have

21     the entire list, however, but I believe that there weren't any

22     confidential documents.

23             This being said, I am satisfied that the first problem is solved,

24     but of course everything will depend on the answer that the Registry will

25     give you.

Page 14741

 1             You know, I'm very -- I believe in transparency.  I don't like to

 2     hide anything and I was wondering, and I checked the transcript in the

 3     Karadzic Pre-Trial Conference, and I checked which were his associates,

 4     and while I reread the transcript, I found out that Mr. Karadzic has

 5     associates, they are -- they receive a pay and they can come here and the

 6     trip is paid.  So I think that your associates should get the same rights

 7     just like the associates of Mr. Karadzic, with respect to the material

 8     question.  It is of course very important that everybody gets the same

 9     treatment in this Tribunal.  But that's of course the Registry's

10     responsibility.

11             Now, about the videos, you told us that the index had been sent

12     to Belgrade.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something in this regard,

14     Mr. President?

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would you like to react to the

16     index or --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As regards not what you have just

18     said, but actually you raised a new issue that I did not raise at this

19     conference, so I think it would be good for me to follow-up on what you

20     just said.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well, go ahead,

22     please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Travel expenses for the Defence

24     counsel and members of the Defence team that are allowed to come and

25     visit their client, so far the travel expenses have always been paid by

Page 14742

 1     the Registry, and the travel expenses have never been at the expense of

 2     the Defence, because the Defence budget, as it is determined and it is

 3     for the most part paid by the Registry, did not include -- was not

 4     supposed to cover the travel expenses.  Those expenses were always

 5     supposed to be extra on top of that.  And since September last year, when

 6     I was visited on one occasion by all of my legal advisors and case

 7     managers, and that was that meeting that I was telling you about that was

 8     recorded by cameras and in a small airless chamber, that happened only

 9     once.  After that I was only visited by Mr. Aleksic and Marina Raguz on

10     several occasions and I always had to cover their travel expenses.  The

11     Registry refused to cover it.

12             So now I am demanding, since you have now given me an example

13     from Mr. Karadzic's case, from another case before this same Tribunal,

14     that the Trial Chamber should demand from the Registry to cover the

15     travel expenses for my legal advisors and to recompense me for the visits

16     that have not been paid for so far in the past year.

17             I think it would be in line with the practice before this

18     Tribunal.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber

20     notes your words and we will give you the adequate answer.

21             Now, with regard to the videos, a couple of months ago you

22     requested to obtain the videos from the Prosecutor.  The Prosecutor

23     gathered the videos, you say that you have over 6.000 hours of viewing

24     time.  You are surely right.  And the Prosecutor sent you also an index.

25     The OTP informed you that there was a mistake and that they will hand you

Page 14743

 1     a different or another index, and asked you to return to them the index

 2     that you had received so that you may have the exact index and exactly

 3     what you had requested.  So the situation is as follows:  You just

 4     informed us that all of this is in Belgrade, therefore, the Prosecutor

 5     would like to get all that material so that he can send you a new index.

 6             If I understood correctly, and can you please tell me, what is

 7     your exact position regarding that problem?  You told us already but I

 8     would like it to be clear.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the

10     Prosecution would go and pick up anything anywhere, but I took preemptive

11     measures.  If the Prosecution shows up with an armed support by the

12     pro-Western regime in Belgrade, I've taken measures to prevent them from

13     finding it there where I keep the materials that pertain to my trial.

14             But since I am a person -- a good person, I'm always ready for

15     compromise.  If they pay back the 250 Euros that the detention

16     administration found and seized from my cell, and I could not find any

17     rule that prohibits explicitly a detainee from having money in their

18     possession, so 250 Euros and also for the 31 sports shirts that were

19     taken away from me, well, you know when it was that I first raised this

20     issue, two and a half years.  And if I get the books and the copies of

21     the Velika Serbia journal that were seized by the Detention Unit

22     administration, if I get all that, I will order my legal advisors to

23     bring the whole list here next week and to hand it over to the

24     Prosecution, and I don't need a new one.  So you can see that I am a

25     person showing goodwill and very constructive.

Page 14744

 1             If I don't get those things that belong to me, the Prosecution

 2     will never, ever get the list that they had given me.  The list will

 3     simply disappear, without a trace.  And nobody will be able to determine

 4     how it disappeared.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Mr. Seselj, we

 6     already knew, of course, but we didn't follow it up.  You did tell us a

 7     while ago that you had in your possession a certain sum of money,

 8     250 Euros.  You say that this sum of money was "seized," I don't really

 9     know the exact reason, the exact legal reason for this money being

10     seized.  And you've also told us about these jerseys that you had

11     received, somebody had sent them to you and you wanted to distribute them

12     to your fellow detention comrades, and the UNDU did not give you those

13     jerseys.

14             Now, I'm also discovering or I hear you that -- I hear you saying

15     that there are some magazines, Velika Serbia, I don't also know why that

16     was seized and why you were not given these magazines, and so you are

17     telling us that in a spirit of cooperation you are ready to proceed to an

18     exchange.

19             It's the Registry that was in charge of the seizure of this

20     money.  I don't know if the rule is against a person having money.

21     Normally in our jurisdictions, the detainee does not have the right to

22     have money on him.  He may purchase food but then from an account which

23     is held by the Registry in order to avoid money trafficking within a

24     prison -- within the prison walls.  That's of course -- those are the

25     rules.

Page 14745

 1             But your request is basically addressed to the Registry.  But you

 2     know, Mr. Seselj, that the relationship between the Registry and detainee

 3     is a relationship that can be -- or you can be -- you can inform the

 4     Presiding Judge or the President of the Tribunal if you are not satisfied

 5     with the relationship that you would have with the Registry.  You may

 6     make a written submission and the Registry has the obligation to answer;

 7     and if you are not happy with the answer, then you inform the President

 8     of the Tribunal.  And I would like to remind you that this is a principle

 9     that exists, and we also reminded you of this on many occasions.

10             Now, you are making an oral request, in a way.  You are asking to

11     get your money back, the magazine, and the jerseys.  I can say that this

12     is a motion made to the Registry in a certain way.

13             Yes, Mr. Seselj.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a few days ago,

15     maybe ten or 15 days ago, I reminded the Registry about the three

16     problems that I've just mentioned, and the Registry replied that that was

17     the discretionary right of the Detention Unit management and that applied

18     to the money, the jerseys, and the books, and Velika Serbia magazine, all

19     of which were seized from me.  Why did I present these problems?  This is

20     a sign of my goodwill.  If the Detention Unit restores my money -- and I

21     never received a general document showing that detainees are not supposed

22     to keep money.  It is true that money should be deposited in an account.

23     However, I had a certain sum of money in my cell and the Detention Unit

24     management punished me for that without any disciplinary proceedings.  I

25     believe that that was against the law and I insist that these things

Page 14746

 1     should be returned to me.

 2             I'm talking here about that somebody [as interpreted] that the

 3     OTP requests, and it seems that the OTP is very keen on having the file

 4     returned to them because they provided something to me within that file,

 5     and I don't know what it is, but they obviously know what it is and they

 6     don't want me to know what it is.  And I'm just asking for three very

 7     minor things.  250 Euro, 31 sports jerseys, that will not jeopardise

 8     anybody in the detention unit, and a certain number of book that were

 9     seized, as well as the copies of the Velika Serbia magazine.  Again,

10     these will not jeopardise anybody because all these are public.  Those

11     were all published and available to the general public and there was no

12     ban on their distribution.

13             On the one hand, they can do a little thing and return to me what

14     is mine, and they can deal with that problem; and I, on my part, return

15     the file to them.  I believe this is fair on my part.  If they don't wish

16     to do that, if they want to play tug of war with me, there's no single

17     person in this world who can be more obstinate than me.  There's no

18     person in the world more obstinate than me.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  All those who have

20     decisionary power will be able to -- a decision of power will be able

21     react to what you said.  Now, I don't know if your legal advisors were

22     coming next week if their trip will be paid for.  I have no idea.  But it

23     looks good so far, and as we said, let's wait for Thursday and Friday and

24     then you will be able to talk to them.  They will come and visit you.

25             Now, Mr. Seselj, would you like to raise another issue?

Page 14747

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have told you everything that I

 2     wanted and had to tell you.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much,

 4     Mr. Seselj.

 5             Mr. Marcussen, I'm very happy to see you again.  I know that you

 6     are now in charge of the file as regards the OTP, since Mr. Mundis left

 7     us.  So I would like to give you the floor and you can therefore tell us

 8     what are the issues that you would like to raise on behalf of the

 9     Prosecution.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm at the moment

11     holding the baby, so to speak, but we will see how we will organise this

12     case later on and the Chamber will be informed if needed about the

13     structure of the Prosecution team.

14             As for the issues raised today, I just -- there's one thing I

15     would like to raise, and that's going back to the beginning of what we

16     discussed this day, and that is the issue of the supplement to the

17     Prosecution's motion to terminate the accused's self-representation.

18             I just wanted to update the Trial Chamber on one issue.  Of

19     course, as the Chamber has of informed the accused, the basis for the

20     motion or the supplement is that the accused has been convicted for a

21     deliberate breach of protective measures ordered by the Trial Chamber.

22     He has been found guilty and sentenced, and it's the Prosecution position

23     that, as a matter of law, the accused can no longer represent himself.

24     We're also pointing out that there's been continued breaches by the

25     accused, and one of the things that the accused has been ordered to do

Page 14748

 1     was report to Trial Chamber III [sic] about what steps he has taken to

 2     withdraw certain material from the internet.  He did not do so within the

 3     dead-line he was given.  And it is also my understanding that, at least

 4     as of yesterday, the material has not been removed from the internet.  So

 5     that is simply to update Your Honours on the status of some of the points

 6     or two points we have raised in the supplement.  That is all I had for

 7     today, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I look at the

 9     transcript, maybe there is an interpretation mistake, line 10, page 23,

10     you talked about Trial Chamber III, were you maybe thinking of

11     Trial Chamber II?

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I probably made a mistake, yes, Your Honour.  It

13     is Trial Chamber II of course.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well,

15     Mr. Seselj, you have the floor, and after that the hearing will be

16     resumed [as interpreted].

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the conviction

18     against me or the decision that was handed down consists of two parts.

19     One part deals with my 15-month sentence; and the second part is the

20     order for me to withdraw the book from my internet site.  I don't know

21     whether you are familiar with the decision of the Trial Chamber.  The

22     withdrawal of my book from my site is something that is harmful for me

23     and I deny the Trial Chamber's right to try me for contempt of court

24     based on the rules that were passed by the Trial Chamber.  This cannot be

25     done even by the Roman court.  I'm going to include that in my appeal.

Page 14749

 1             However, the sentence is not final and I will not act upon it

 2     before it does become final.  I announced my appeal and one of my -- the

 3     grounds for appeal concerns the illegal request for the book to be

 4     removed from my internet site.  The book has been published, it has not

 5     been banned.  If there has been a ban imposed on the distribution of that

 6     book, then the book would have to be removed from all the libraries and

 7     burned.  The book has not been banned and it will remain on my site.  If

 8     I have indeed disclosed the name of protective witnesses, which I didn't,

 9     then this is possibly something that has already been done.

10             Somebody who has committed the crime of murder and is convicted

11     of murder cannot be imposed the obligation to bury the body.  I don't

12     think that this is possible.  Maybe it can be done at the Hague Tribunal.

13     Be it as it may, I was given a deadline, the 7th or the 8th of August, to

14     remove my book and the decision is still not final.  And I'm not removing

15     my book for as long as the decision is not final.  When it is going to be

16     final, we shall see.

17             I have until the 1st of November to file my appeal.  Today or

18     tomorrow I will file my request for the exemption of two Judges, Meron

19     and Pocar, from the Appeals Chamber.  I have drafted my explanation on 40

20     pages, but that cannot be an argument for me to have a Defence counsel

21     imposed.  The argument is he has not complied with a decision that is

22     still not final.

23             I'm asking you what kind of schools you finished, what kind of

24     professors did you have, what kind of text books did you learn from?  I

25     find this astonishing.  As a professor of law school, I would fail

Page 14750

 1     students like you are.  They would never pass any exams with me if they

 2     had acted and reasoned as you do.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Everything has been

 4     said.  We will see each other again in the month of October as soon as we

 5     have a date.  I hope that we will see each other shortly, since every

 6     hearing is useful.  And one should not despair, sometimes things take

 7     time.  But I'm hopeful.

 8             So we will adjourn now, and the Registrar will let you know ahead

 9     of time of the new date so that you may get -- you may prepare yourself.

10     I thank you all the parties present.  The hearing is adjourned.

11                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

12                           at 10.00 a.m.