Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14786

 1                           Tuesday, 24 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 4.00 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can you kindly call

 6     the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-03-67-T,

 9     the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.  Today is

11     Tuesday, the 24th of November, 2009.  I would like to greet Mr. Seselj,

12     Mr. Marcussen, as well as the entire OTP team, and I would also like to

13     greet the Registrar, the usher, as well as the interpreters.

14             This hearing today is dedicated to a number of topics on which we

15     have to take stock.  These are pending issues, and I wish to inform

16     Mr. Seselj of the fact that the Trial Chamber has recorded a decision

17     yesterday which relates to the assignment of counsel, which relates to

18     the adjournment and to the Prosecution's motion on additional time.

19     Since this decision is 30-odd pages long, it will be translated in the

20     language of the accused as soon as possible so that the latter may be

21     informed about this.

22             Nonetheless, I will inform the parties of the content of the

23     disposition.  Prior to that, I would like to tell the parties where the

24     Trial Chamber stands today, since a number of our associates have left

25     and have not been replaced.  Since the adjournment of the trial which

Page 14787

 1     took place in February, the assistants who were working for us have left

 2     one after the other, which means that as things stand today all in all

 3     the only person we have left is the Legal Officer who is sitting in front

 4     of us.  In a trial, normally speaking, to assist the Bench there is a

 5     Legal Officer, floating assistant, and three assistants, which means that

 6     we are now extremely limited in our resources.  The Registrar will have

 7     to exert due process to make sure that our team is expanded so that the

 8     trial can resume.

 9             I would like to say that the Trial Chamber has handed out three

10     decisions:  One decision which is of a public nature, one decision which

11     is confidential in nature, and one decision which is confidential and ex

12     parte, which explains why in the public decision certain passages have

13     been redacted, which also explains, Mr. Seselj, the fact that in the

14     confidential decision which will be given to you certain passages have

15     been redacted, and you will not be able to read these.  We could not do

16     it in any other way because of a number of constraints which go beyond

17     the scope of what the Trial Chamber is able to do.  We are dependent on

18     the Appeals Chamber and another Chamber, and despite our best efforts we

19     have been unable to lift this obstacle, which means that unfortunately

20     you will have part of the decision which you will not be able to access

21     since a number of paragraphs will have been redacted.  Nonetheless, the

22     decision for the main part is in there.

23             I have also added an individual opinion of mine which relates to

24     the issue of assignment of counsel, but as an introductory observation I

25     would like to say that I'm not in favour of this kind of practice, i.e.,

Page 14788

 1     to hand down decisions ex parte.  Unfortunately, the case law has been

 2     established here at the Tribunal for a number of years already and you

 3     cannot change this from one day to the next.

 4             In the disposition the Trial Chamber orders the joinder of all

 5     procedures on assignment of counsel, the adjournment, as well as

 6     additional time, which means, Mr. Seselj, that we have handed down a

 7     single decision which includes all the pending motions.

 8             The Trial Chamber orders the accused to communicate to the

 9     Trial Chamber a hard copy and, if possible, also an electronic version of

10     anything published in future in his name where the content relates wholly

11     or in part to the current case so that the Trial Chamber may forward it

12     to the Registrar, who will then review the material and determine whether

13     such publications contain any confidential information or not, and thus

14     it identify any Prosecution witness that is protected in this case.

15             This means, Mr. Seselj, that if you publish a new book, the

16     Trial Chamber would like you to communicate or disclose this book because

17     so far all these books that have been published we have never seen.  So

18     if you publish a book in future which is of interest to us in this case

19     in which you are being prosecuted, please give us a copy of your book.

20     We will have this copy translated in one of the two working languages of

21     the Tribunal to know whether this book contains any confidential

22     information requiring some form of protection.  This is what we are

23     asking you to do.

24             Then the Trial Chamber confirms the dismissal of the rest of the

25     motion on assignment of counsel and the addendum as regards the conduct

Page 14789

 1     of the accused outside the courtroom as well as the oral motion of the

 2     14th of January, 2009, and the supplemental motion.  Which means,

 3     Mr. Seselj - this is something I have told you already in the past - the

 4     Trial Chamber is not assigning you a counsel.

 5             The Trial Chamber grants the motion for review of the

 6     adjournment.  You had submitted an oral motion for review of the

 7     adjournment.  The Trial Chamber, therefore, grants your application.  The

 8     Trial Chamber orders the resumption of the remaining witnesses'

 9     testimonies.  The Trial Chamber dismisses the motion on extra hours,

10     which means that the Prosecutor will not have any additional time.  The

11     Trial Chamber decides to call the following witnesses herself, I shall

12     give you the numbers and not the names, since these are protected

13     witnesses:  VS-017, VS-026, VS-029, VS-032, VS -- there's a mistake on

14     the transcript.  Let me -- VS-017, VS-026, VS-029, VS-032, VS-067, and

15     VS-1067.

16             The witnesses I have just mentioned, VS-17, VS-26, VS-29, VS-32,

17     VS-67, and VS-1067, these six witnesses will be witnesses of the Court.

18     The Trial Chamber confirms that witness VS-034 will be led directly by

19     the Chamber.  The Trial Chamber prohibits the parties, i.e., the

20     Prosecutor and Mr. Seselj, from establishing any contact with those

21     witnesses called directly by the Chamber, namely, witnesses VS-17, VS-26,

22     VS-29, VS-032, VS-034, VS-067, and VS-1067 unless expressly authorised by

23     the Trial Chamber.  In other words, if the Prosecutor or Mr. Seselj wish

24     to contact any of these witnesses I have just mentioned, you must seize

25     the Chamber of this matter and file a motion stating the reasons why you

Page 14790

 1     wish to contact these witnesses.  The Trial Chamber would, of course,

 2     hand down a decision on this matter.

 3             The Chamber invites the Prosecution to withdraw witnesses VS-050,

 4     VS-1033, and VS-1058 on the deliberate pattern of conduct and inform the

 5     Trial Chamber within eight days of its position concerning these

 6     witnesses.

 7             Mr. Marcussen, therefore, over the next eight days you must tell

 8     us whether or not you are going to withdraw these three witnesses which

 9     pertain to the deliberate pattern of conduct.  The Trial Chamber holds

10     that it has already heard a number of witnesses on the issue of the

11     deliberate pattern of conduct and feels that it is not necessary to call

12     these witnesses.  The Trial Chamber decides that witness VS-037 would be

13     the first to appear before the Trial Chamber and invites the Prosecution

14     to arrange for his testimony on the 12th of January, 2010.

15             The only remaining witness of the Prosecution who is not a

16     witness of the Court is witness VS-037.  So please make sure he can come

17     on the 12th of January, 2010.  Why would it be on this date?  Well, it is

18     for the following reason:  There will be entire sittings of the

19     Trial Chambers as of that time onwards.  Judge Lattanzi will be involved

20     in the Karadzic trial, Judge Harhoff is involved in the Zupljanin case,

21     and I will be involved in the Prlic et al. case, which means that when we

22     sit in this case in the presence of the accused, Mr. Seselj, we have to

23     then make sure that we can all sit in the morning or in the afternoon or

24     vice versa.  This is quite tricky to organise, since we have to face an

25     additional problem, and it is for the following reason:  In the Prlic

Page 14791

 1     case there will also be sitting on the Bench a Judge sitting on the

 2     Tolimir case, which poses a problem because four different Judges can

 3     only sit in three concurrent trials given the number of courtrooms we

 4     have.  So since we have these four cases running and ongoing, it is

 5     sometimes difficult to find some extra time.  But the Registrar will look

 6     into this.

 7             We also have an additional workload.  We are involved in other

 8     cases, as I've just said.  And since most of the witnesses will be

 9     witnesses of the Court, which means that the Judges have to prepare for

10     these witnesses since the Bench is going to be asking the questions, over

11     the next few weeks as of the 12th of January, 2010, onwards we will only

12     be sitting for two days a week.  So far we have been sitting three days a

13     week.  This would be on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.  Since there are very

14     few witnesses left this should run fairly smoothly.

15             I would also like to indicate that out of the six witnesses of

16     the Court I have mentioned today, needless to repeat these numbers, as

17     far as three of these witnesses are concerned, we need to check their

18     medical records to see whether these witnesses will be fit to testify.

19     We know nothing today about their medical condition, so we need to have

20     additional information as regards three of these witnesses.  Perhaps

21     there are no medical issues, and in that case they will be able to come.

22     Conversely, if their medical condition is such that they cannot come and

23     testify, then we will have to hear them via a video conference system.

24     And maybe they will not be able to come and testify at all, but as things

25     stand today we know nothing about it yet.  We need to resume the trial

Page 14792

 1     and all this will take time.  This is why the first witness will come on

 2     the 12th of January, 2010.

 3             The Trial Chamber has decided to hand down this consolidated

 4     decision because as far as the dismissal of extra time is concerned, as

 5     far as the witnesses of the Court is concerned and no assignment of

 6     counsel is concerned, all these elements fit in together.  We have

 7     therefore filed this consolidated decision because we would like the

 8     trial to resume in the best conditions possible.

 9             I would like to specify two points nonetheless.  The Prosecutor

10     as far as his witness, Witness 037 which is a Prosecution witness is

11     concerned, has seven and a half hours left, perhaps even five and a half

12     hours, perhaps even two and a half hours.  The time that the Prosecution

13     had had for its re-direct, should that be deducted from the overall time

14     granted to the Prosecution.  If this time needs to be deducted, then the

15     Prosecutor will not have seven and a half hours less but much less than

16     that.  We are currently working all this out, and we will let you know

17     exactly how much time you have left.

18             Whatever the case may be, the Prosecution has enough time to hear

19     Witness VS-037.  As far as the witnesses of the Court are concerned - and

20     I have indicated the numbers of these witnesses - the Trial Chamber will

21     tell the parties how much time they will have to put that question to

22     these witnesses.  That said, the Trial Chamber will first put its

23     questions.  The Prosecutor will then have time to put his or her

24     questions as part of his or her examination-in-chief or

25     cross-examination, whatever the case may be.  And Mr. Seselj will also

Page 14793

 1     have time, the same time as the Prosecution has had, to put his questions

 2     to those witnesses since he will have the same time as the Prosecution.

 3             Just to give you some idea, this may still be changed in the

 4     future, VS-017 had been scheduled for two hours; 026, two hours; VS-032,

 5     one hour and a half; VS-034, one hour; VS-067, two hours; VS-1067, one

 6     hour; for Witness VS-037, two hours.  These are the empirical data which

 7     we would like to share with you.  As of the 12th of January, 2010, things

 8     should move on fairly quickly so that we are able to reach the 98 bis

 9     rule stage.

10             I would like to specify one point which relates to the book which

11     Mr. Seselj may write in the future.  I would like to say that this book

12     would then be disclosed to the Registry.  The Registry would then review

13     the book.  Someone who is conversant in B/C/S will review the book and

14     identify any potential protected witnesses in the book.  And then we will

15     see whether it is necessary to have the entire book translated.  I don't

16     think this will be a problem since I don't even know whether Mr. Seselj

17     intends to write a new book at all.  That much will depend on him.

18             This is what I wanted to say as a preliminary matter, i.e., to

19     announce that the Trial Chamber has handed down its decision.  It may

20     have seemed long to you, Mr. Seselj.  We did not stand idle, let me tell

21     you, because even if since the month of February the trial has not taken

22     place, we have deliberated on a great number of issues.  We have been

23     able to meet with you on a number of occasions, and we have had to

24     prepare these monumental decisions so that the trial can start again.

25             I know that you may complain about the fact that some paragraphs

Page 14794

 1     have -- the reasons for which the trial is going to start again, for the

 2     time being some of these paragraphs will not be disclosed to you.  But as

 3     soon as we are able to lift the confidentiality of some of these

 4     paragraphs, you will be informed about these.  We have done all we can to

 5     provide you with as much information as was possible, but we cannot take

 6     it further because it does not -- no longer depends on us.

 7             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor if you wish to say something; and

 8     after that, I shall give the floor to Mr. Marcussen.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have quite a lot to say

10     with respect to that decision of yours.  I energetically protest because

11     the Trial Chamber is bringing in a decision which has to do with me and

12     contains ex parte parts, that is to say, it contains portions the

13     contents of which I'm not allowed to know.  So you have decided something

14     that concerns me, and I don't know what you have decided.  This is the

15     Kafka trial, and the least that I can do is to tell you that that kind of

16     decision, as far as I'm concerned, is non-existent, it doesn't exist.

17     And then you go ahead and make your ex parte decisions, sentencing me

18     with the death sentence, hanging me here on the main square in The Hague.

19     You can make any ex parte decision that you like.  It will be self will

20     on the part of the Judges and completely against the law, unlawful, and

21     that does not exist in any modern, contemporary legal system.  There are

22     preparatory stages, investigations where certain facts must remain ex

23     parte in order not to jeopardise the investigation, the scene with the

24     facts and so on.  But once a Trial Chamber makes a decision, that

25     decision must not be ex parte; it can be confidential for the public for

Page 14795

 1     certain reasons, but it cannot be a secret and confidential as far as I'm

 2     concerned because the decision concerns me.

 3             Now, the fact that there might exist a precedent in some other

 4     trial - I don't know in which one because those documents were not

 5     accessible to me, case law of The Hague Tribunal was not accessible to me

 6     except for the judgements of the first and second instance.  Very rarely

 7     was I able to look at the texts of some other decisions.  But the fact

 8     that somebody violated the law before you -- as I was saying, because

 9     somebody trampled legal principles before you does not justify you to do

10     the same and follow suit.

11             Now, since you've done that, what I'm telling you now is I don't

12     recognise that decision.  I'm not going to appeal or complain; it just

13     doesn't exist.  It can't be ex parte --

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm not sure you have fully understood what the

15     Presiding Judge has told you.  First of all, there is no part of the

16     disposition of the decision that is ex parte.  The contents of the

17     decision has been made available to you and to the public.

18             Secondly, if I'm not mistaken, even in your own jurisdiction in

19     Serbia the possibility of rendering parts of a decision ex parte does

20     exist.  So this should not come as a surprise to you.  The decision is

21     clear, it's public, and you have been made aware of it.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Harhoff, out of a decision is a

23     statement of reasons and explanation.  Now, if I don't know the contents

24     of that, then I cannot apply any legal remedy.  How can I complain and

25     appeal that decision if I don't know what the statement of reasons are?

Page 14796

 1     I left Serbia a long time ago, and I don't know what the mafia-type

 2     regime in my own country has done since then in the meantime since I

 3     left.  You know that on the 5th of October, 2000, there was the first

 4     successful mafia putsch in the history of mankind carried out in Serbia.

 5     Under communism in Serbia that possibility did not exist.  When I studied

 6     law or was professor at the faculty of law, that still did not exist.

 7     This in procedural law and in criminal law, that didn't exist, but I

 8     wouldn't be surprised if it exists now since I left Serbia because now in

 9     Serbia everything seems possible because Serbia seems to be a country

10     akin to Lewis Caroll's "Alice in Wonderland."

11             However, you say the disposition is known to me, yes it is.  But

12     I have to appeal and complain about that disposition, and how can I do

13     that if I don't know what your statement of reasons are, how you explain

14     that disposition?  And what is it that is so important in those

15     confidential portions that I'm not allowed to learn them either?  Why did

16     you then put them in the explanations of reasons?  To whom are you

17     explaining this if I'm not allowed to know, if the public isn't allowed

18     to know, the ordinary public particularly not the professional public.

19     Well, who then is allowed to know?  Who is going to control your decision

20     then and say, "Well, this Trial Chamber has made a good decision and

21     good, stated valid reasons"?  People will come to hear about it maybe in

22     a hundred years' time when the confidentiality is lifted, but who's going

23     to control you?  You're trying me and the public is trying you, and you

24     are making a decision with an absolutely confidential parts which I am

25     not allowed to know about and then nobody can judge you.  I can't

Page 14797

 1     complain, I can't take you to a higher court, although I have far less

 2     confidence in that higher-instance court than I have in you here, and I

 3     want to tell you that.  But it's my formal right to be able to appeal

 4     your decision and to complain.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, how could I appeal

 6     if I don't know the ex parte parts?  Right.  I understand legally the

 7     question is pertinent, but are you going to appeal from the fact that you

 8     have been satisfied concerning the question of the non-imposition of

 9     counsel?  You didn't want counsel, you don't have counsel.  Are you going

10     to appeal on the fact that it was decided to start again the trial?  This

11     is what you had requested.  So it's difficult for me to understand you

12     there.

13             Though the Prosecution may appeal and ask for certification of

14     appeal, this may be understood since he -- his arguments were rejected.

15     But the Prosecution -- you will have a copy of the decision.  But you,

16     you suffer no damage because on the majority on issues you have been

17     granted what you requested.  The question may be asked, the fact that the

18     Chamber decided to call a certain number of witnesses as witnesses of the

19     Chamber because originally they were witnesses for the Prosecution and

20     some have said that they would be Defence witnesses later on.  So there,

21     maybe this is something you don't like, but on the rest you have been

22     satisfied on everything you asked.  So you can't say that you can't

23     appeal because some parts are missing unless you want to shoot yourself

24     in the foot.  Perhaps you want to appeal on the fact that you are not

25     satisfied because your requests were granted?

Page 14798

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am astonished.  I am astonished

 2     by your interpretation, Mr. President.  I did not expect any such thing

 3     because you had shown very well that you know how to run these

 4     proceedings and that you are very knowledgeable in the field of law.

 5     This decision that you made, the consolidated decision, that is an

 6     omnibus decision, I haven't seen it yet, but it is problematic and you

 7     included a whole lot of the demands made by the Prosecution and some of

 8     my own.  You are right, though.

 9             You mentioned here a few decisions that I have to be satisfied

10     with.  Last time I expressed my satisfaction over one decision, that is

11     to say, to reject imposition of counsel, to continue the proceedings, et

12     cetera.  However, you decided here to exercise censorship over my books.

13     Perhaps I did not understand you fully, perhaps you were not explicit

14     enough.  Do I have to provide the Registry with a manuscript of every one

15     of my books before sending it to the printing press, or do I send you

16     copies of my book once it is printed and then you have it checked?

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Maybe there is a mistake in

18     interpretation.  There is no censorship.  In order to avoid problems, the

19     Chamber considered that it was wise to ask you, at least as a minimum by

20     courtesy, to let us have your own works if you are writing and -- because

21     I don't know your language, we would then have some checking done to see

22     whether by any chance there are some passages which may be confidential

23     in order to avoid any problem for you, in order to avoid any problem.

24     All of this is an assumption.

25             We have preferred for this trial to start the best possible -- in

Page 14799

 1     the best possible way.  To do this, ask you to communicate your text to

 2     be in a position to tell you be careful on this page there is a problem,

 3     and this is all we can do.  I am not behind you while you are writing.

 4     There is no question about censorship.  Perhaps you didn't understand as

 5     well.  What we put in the decision is that there is a request to

 6     communicate to us the book if you are writing a book.  I don't know.

 7             Now, why am I saying this?  Because on the book which cause some

 8     difficulty for you and which is pending, a case pending the Appeals

 9     Chamber, we never read that book.  Maybe if at the time you had

10     communicated to us, you had given it to us, or certain passages had been

11     translated for us, we could have acted in a timely way and told you,

12     "There is such and such a problem."  So this is to avoid new problems of

13     this kind that we prefer to take this decision in this -- dispositive.  I

14     read it to you, the disposition.  You didn't read the whole decision

15     because there are about 30 pages and certain passages which you won't

16     have for the moment.  It doesn't mean you won't have them one day, but

17     for the moment you can't.  But there is no censorship.  We simply request

18     you to communicate to us the book, but I'm not going to check behind you

19     in your cell whether you have written a book or not.  I'm not going to

20     write the authorities in your country to say, "Caution, you have to

21     confiscate all the books."  No.  I don't have a right to do so, and it is

22     not in my mind, but it's just to avoid problems in case there would be a

23     publication of a new book that we ask you to communicate your text.  And

24     since the three Judges don't know your language, we will look at it very

25     quickly, but if it's written in Cyrillic our checking will be minimal and

Page 14800

 1     we will have to ask the Registry to tell us whether there is anything in

 2     the book which could be an issue.  And if we're told, "Yes, this page

 3     there is a problem."  We will say, "What did you mean to say here?"

 4     That's all.  It's not censorship in any way.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. President, this

 6     decision of yours is absolutely unprecedented in the legal history of

 7     mankind, unprecedented.  Can you indicate to me any similar case?  If you

 8     do, I will agree with you straightaway.  However, no such other decision

 9     exists.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, wait a minute.  You

11     are a lawyer, a high-level lawyer, everybody knows this.  So there's no

12     reason to praise you, but you know as well as I do that there are some

13     countries who do organise a form of control beforehand.  For instance,

14     for the showing of certain films and before giving permission to show

15     such films, the producer gives to a committee the film to obtain a visa.

16     Many countries in the world act in such a way.

17             There are also in certain countries minor, for instance, but

18     others will certainly -- when certain books which can cause a problem,

19     morals problem, for instance, then an order can be given not to publish

20     the book.  Don't tell me it doesn't exist.  I could give you a horde of

21     examples.

22             In our decision here, we have tried to find a system which would

23     reconcile only aspects of your freedom of speech which recognised by

24     international instruments and the need that we have to make sure that the

25     protected witnesses remain protected.  But if you know a better system

Page 14801

 1     [indiscernible] then we will listen to you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I say in the

 3     entire legal history of mankind, I'm referring to the civilised part of

 4     mankind, those that do have a legal history or a history of law.  A

 5     country like Pakistan cannot have a legal history at all.  In very rare

 6     periods they had a democracy during the military dictatorship, everything

 7     was subjected to censorship.  Paraguay also during the rule of dictator

 8     Stroessner.  Again, everything was subjected to censorship.  You know

 9     that I was an anti-communist dissident for many, many years in the former

10     Yugoslavia, who was persecuted on account of writing books, and I was

11     sentenced to many years in prison because the police had seized some of

12     my manuscripts while they were still in my bag before anybody had seen

13     them.  However, books were not subjected to censorship.  It was hard to

14     find a publisher.  There were no private publishing houses, but then

15     there were also concealed forms of censorship because a publisher would

16     refuse to publish your book.  However, you did not have to ask anyone

17     formally for their consent to have your book published.  However, you --

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, I think that the form of censorship

19     that you are speaking about in legal terms is the censorship where the

20     censor has the power to forcibly remove parts of the scripts from the

21     author.  What we are suggesting here is nothing of the sort.  You have

22     been convicted for publishing in one of your books information that

23     should not have been published; therefore, it's a reasonable measure that

24     the trial -- that this Trial Chamber takes in asking you to in the future

25     submit your manuscript to us, so as to enable us to check if there is

Page 14802

 1     again such information that should not and cannot be published.

 2             If it happens, we are not considering to forcefully remove any

 3     such part, but what we will do is to address the problem with you.  So

 4     the censorship that you are talking about is a completely different kind

 5     in substance than the measure that we are taking here.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, my colleague is

 7     entirely right to say this, and I would like to add -- let's take a case.

 8     Imagine that in the future book, if there is to be one, that just by

 9     mistake, without actually knowing, you quote the name of a protected

10     witness and that after that we see that there is a problem, we Judges,

11     we'll tell you.  We'll tell you, "Caution, be careful on this page, you

12     have mentioned this."  Perhaps you would have done so with no bad

13     intention whatsoever.  That's all.

14             But if we tell you, "Witness X is a protected witness," and then

15     you communicate his name in the book and you want to maintain the

16     publication, then what would we do, we Judges, we will not ourselves take

17     any action.  It will be the Prosecution who will file a motion, as he

18     would have done, and then we will step down because it will be for

19     another Chamber to judge that.

20             But in order to avoid this sort of problem we have thought that

21     it was the better solution, the best solution.  If you have a better

22     solution, perhaps the best would be not to write a book so then there

23     would be no problem; but if you do want to write a book, do so, please.

24     What else can I tell you?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have three more things to say in

Page 14803

 1     relation to that, if you have the patience to hear me out.

 2             First of all, I don't write all of my own books.  Out of these

 3     111 titles, I have personally written four books.  This is no mean feat

 4     if you take into account that all four of these books are 1.000 pages

 5     long respectively.  The rest are books in which my newspaper interviews

 6     are compiled, parliamentary speeches, TV duels, court proceedings, there

 7     are three or four books of that time from the times of communism and

 8     further on.  Since I have been here at The Hague Tribunal, I have been

 9     publishing compilations of documents that are accessible to the public.

10     I have already published about 40 such books.  Not a single one was

11     controversial, not a single one contained any confidential documents.

12     All of them contained documents that were accessible to the public.  You

13     say that I was convicted because of one book.  I claim that I was not

14     convicted.  I can -- I say that I can -- it can be said that I was

15     convicted only when the decision becomes final.  However, the appeal

16     proceedings are underway, and not a single one of these documents

17     contained in that book were inaccessible to the public, not a single one

18     of these documents was confidential, and there is an enormous number of

19     such documents in 1200 dense pages.  I was sentenced because if someone

20     were to compare very carefully page 200 and something and page 900

21     something, this somebody may infer who a particular protected witness is.

22     And that is why I was tried and sentenced if you compare this to all the

23     other previous trials for contempt of court.

24             Secondly, I'm convinced that there is something else behind that

25     decision of yours --

Page 14804

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, my colleague has

 2     called my attention on this fact because since you are mentioning it, we

 3     are all expecting the decision of the Appeals Chamber.  If finally the

 4     Appeals Chamber considers you innocent, of course the measure we have

 5     taken in a preventive way would then be appealed, re-examined at least.

 6             So don't worry.  Wait serenely for what the Appeals Chamber will

 7     decide, and if you do -- if you are acquitted at the Appeals Chamber on

 8     this matter, then what we have decided will fall out, will not use it

 9     anymore -- I don't understand why you are getting so excited on this

10     particular aspect.  You certainly have good reasons to call our attention

11     to these matters.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not getting excited, but

13     I know what the background to that decision is.  The Registry or the

14     President of the Tribunal or some third person learnt that I was

15     preparing three books of Tribunal documents accessible to the public

16     whose titles are a problem because in one title I have very bad words to

17     say about the former Judge, Judge Bonomy; and then in the second one

18     about Kevin Parker; and then in the third one about Judge O-Gon Kwon, so

19     that's the problem.  I say insulting things about them.  Now, if I use

20     wit to make up a title for some book which comes out in Serbia, those

21     Judges can take legal proceedings against me --

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

23     continues]...  please know that the Chamber here in this Chamber, nobody

24     would dare do anything on -- under any pressure of any of us three.  And

25     I am now telling you - and this is my word as a Judge - that nobody came

Page 14805

 1     to tell us, "Mr. Seselj has written three books."  I knew nothing about

 2     it.  You have told us.  I knew absolutely nothing about the fact that you

 3     have written books about Judges.  You're free to do so.  So I'm just

 4     telling you, the decision we have made is totally disconnected with this.

 5     You may believe us or not believe us, but I am affirming and telling you

 6     that the measure we have taken did not take into account the fact that

 7     you had three books which were now being printed.  What is more, if these

 8     books are being printed in Serbia what can you think we can do about it?

 9     Please believe us when I tell you that this Chamber is totally

10     unaccessible to any form of pressure whence it comes.  I have always

11     functioned this way.  You may doubt this, but it is the truth.

12             Therefore, the decision we have taken is here precisely in order

13     to ask you to let us have -- let us see a book, but one has taken care in

14     this decision - and you didn't see that - about a book which has to do

15     with this case.  Because if you're writing a book on Judge Bonomy, I

16     don't care, I have nothing to do with that.  But if you are writing a

17     book which has to do, for instance, with Vukovar, what happened in

18     Vukovar, Zvornik, or any other place which is mentioned in the indictment

19     with the name of witnesses which might be involved, we ask you to

20     communicate to us the text of the book.  But you may write whatever you

21     want.  There is no censorship.  You have total freedom to write on what

22     you want, on whom you want.  But if this book has to do only with the

23     indictment because there may be some witnesses, yes.  On the other hand,

24     if you're writing a book on experts, ballistics, this you may.  Of course

25     you don't need to communicate this to us.  What we are interested in is

Page 14806

 1     only information which have a link with this case, which is to say this

 2     is quite well defined.  If you're writing a book on Srebrenica, I am not

 3     seized with the Srebrenica events.  You see?  So since you don't have the

 4     decision, you haven't yet seen all this.  But when I read request for us

 5     it's the books which would have a direct link with this case.  A book on

 6     Bonomy, we're not interested; on Judge Kwon, we're not interested; on

 7     Judge Parker, we're not interested.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps I wasn't precise enough.  I

 9     informed you that three of my books have gone to the press, which are

10     collections of publicly accessible documents from this trial.  They're my

11     motions and submissions, those of the Prosecutor, and the Trial

12     decisions.  And all this is accessible to the public, and they're being

13     printed.  Perhaps my advisors and associates will bring in one of them,

14     at least one of them, on Thursday.  Maybe they'll all come out in print

15     by Monday, but anyway, they are three books, and in those three books

16     there is nothing that is not accessible to the public, nothing

17     confidential.  I'm absolutely certain about that because I keep

18     emphasising to the people who are preparing this material under my

19     instructions that they must not make a mistake, they must not put a foot

20     wrong.  It is not my aim to make smaller problems which will hamper the

21     bigger trial.  It is my aim to have the trial over as soon as possible --

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

23     continues]...  to still check for yourself because the problem is that

24     you are the one who will be responsible for what will appear in your

25     name, what will be printed in your name or published.  So try and check

Page 14807

 1     yet in these books to avoid any problem.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have the possibility

 3     of having somebody travel from Belgrade to The Hague all the time.

 4                 Secondly, the only possibility I have -- my visits by friends

 5     have been reduced to a minimum.  Only my immediate family has the right

 6     to visit me and only two representatives of the Serbian Radical Party

 7     have the right to visit me and nobody else.  In two or three cases in

 8     seven years an exception was made, and then some friend of mine was able

 9     to come in, but there were a lot of problems over that.  So nobody's

10     allowed to visit me anymore, and I'm looking at my fellow inmates who

11     have many visits.  So I'm discriminated against in that respect.

12             Secondly, I don't have the possibility of looking through every

13     book before it goes to press, but I have full confidence in the people

14     working according to my instructions, just like in the book for which I

15     was taken to trial and you see that I took all the responsibility on

16     myself for that.  I didn't accuse anybody of anything; I took it upon

17     myself.

18             Now, I'm interested in something else.  You have made your

19     decision, and now the decision has to be accompanied by certain

20     sanctions.  So what sanctions do you have in mind when I violate that

21     decision?  Will I be forbidden to write anything whatsoever?  Will I be

22     forbidden to make any telephone calls to Belgrade?  Will I be forbidden

23     to have books in my cell?  So what sanction is it that you have in mind

24     now if I fail to respect your decision and provide you my books in

25     advance for you to look through them?  That's what I'm interested in.

Page 14808

 1     Because I suppose every person needs to know what punishment awaits him

 2     if he violates a law.  You have established a norm, this is a legal norm,

 3     an individual legal act and document, which concerns me; but I suppose

 4     it's your duty now to tell me what punishment you intend to mete out so

 5     that I can assess whether it's in my interests to override that decision

 6     of yours or not.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you straightaway you know

 8     that I am not the one who will meet in front of a hurdle.  Let's take the

 9     case of the three books that are going to be printed.  We don't know the

10     contents.  You tell us it has a compilation of decision of all the public

11     documents, all right, I suppose you are telling us the truth.  Your books

12     are published in Belgrade and then the Prosecutor who has got to big

13     means will certainly have a copy.  And if he considers that there is an

14     infringement or violation of the protection measures of a witness, he

15     will file a motion to seize the Chamber; and the Chamber will then have

16     to ask another Chamber to take it.  Don't count on us to seize in your

17     own cell a draft book.  We're not going to go to Belgrade to tell the

18     printer, "Stop what you're doing."  No.

19             If you violate the rules concerning protected witnesses, this is

20     your own risk, but you are sufficiently intelligent to remain within the

21     proper way.  It may happen again that you -- happen to the Judges of the

22     Chamber that by mistake in a decision the name of somebody he's quoted

23     while the person is a protected witness, it can happen.  Sometimes there

24     are mistakes, and good faith has to prevail.  If you tell us, "In this

25     book I just realised there is a problem," just let us know and we shall

Page 14809

 1     see how to proceed.  But if deliberately you publish some information,

 2     what could I do about it?  I am not in your own conscience.  You decide.

 3     You have your own fate in your own hands, so if you want to do it, you

 4     can do it.  But if you are wise and intelligent, you know that some

 5     people are protected witnesses and it is better not to mention them at

 6     all.

 7             So I don't know, you tell me you'd like to know what are the

 8     sanctions of punishment.  It is not this Chamber who will impose any form

 9     of punishment or sanction.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This also is my personal

11     opinion, but in the light of your decision and the arguments you have

12     mentioned that you will have the possibility in the confidential version

13     to read this, you will see also that there is a risk of certain

14     behaviour, certain forms of behaviour - this is not yet the case - but if

15     such behaviour were to take place and if it could be considered as

16     persisting behaviour which prevent proper development of the trial in the

17     future, this could be a form of obstruction or filibustering, you might

18     then expose yourself to some risks which is not yet the case.  This has

19     been said clearly in the decision, but there could be as a result

20     imposition of a counsel.

21             Therefore, you have to be careful to what you publish or what is

22     published by somebody in your name, your collaborators if they have this

23     possibility.  And personally, I advise you to check very well what is

24     written and published.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have fully understood you and

Page 14810

 1     there's nothing contentious there.  When I publish something, then I run

 2     the risk of whether I'm going to violate the rules or not, and the rules

 3     state what is in contempt of court.

 4             Now, if I publish something that is not accessible to the public,

 5     then proceedings for contempt of court may be launched.  You can call

 6     obstruction some conduct on my part in which I disclose the names of some

 7     protected witnesses or give some confidential information to the public.

 8     That is obstruction.  I agree.  That is obstruction.  However, if you

 9     have made a decision whereby I am supposed to provide my manuscript in

10     advance or before the book goes to the printing press to the Registrar

11     and I fail to comply and I fail to do that and publish the book anyway

12     and then I hand you over the book and I take it upon myself to provide

13     three copies for each member of the Trial Chamber, one copy for the

14     Prosecution, and one copy for the Registrar of each of the books that I'm

15     going to publish in future, so I'll resolve that problem myself.  I just

16     heard that the Prosecution's resources have been reduced, so I hear that.

17     So it's not only my resource that are limited.

18             So what I'm doing now is providing you with this information that

19     three books have already gone to the press, they're going to be printed.

20     You have informed me of your decision here today.  You have told me that

21     I have to submit before my book goes to the printers a manuscript of the

22     book that I intend to publish, but I'm telling you now that three of them

23     are already with the printers, and I've told you what the contents of the

24     books are.  They are trial documents accessible to the public.  I have

25     checked that that is so, and those books are going to come out in a week

Page 14811

 1     or two.  And you say that I have violated your decision because I have

 2     not provided you with the manuscript in advance, and then you can look

 3     through the books and you will see that there is nothing there that is

 4     not accessible to the public which would represent contempt of court.

 5             Now, what now?  In formal terms I have violated your decision

 6     because the books are coming out and have come out, whereas there is

 7     nothing controversial in the books.  So that's the problem that I want to

 8     hear your answer to.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we would like you

10     to make it short because we would like the Prosecution to take the floor

11     and our time is not unlimited.  We all agree that you should disclose the

12     book to us once you have it.  There is no censorship and no prior

13     control.  As my colleague told you, you must just be careful.  If

14     unfortunately when a book is published violation of the status of

15     protected witnesses could constitute a violation of the decision and a

16     counsel will then be assigned to you.  This is what we are warning you

17     about; we are warning you to be careful.

18             There's no prior censorship.  Maybe you have misunderstood.

19     Please disclose the book to us as soon as it is published, and you have

20     told us that you would hand these copies over to you [as interpreted].

21     So that is not a problem.  As my colleague has quite rightly said, just

22     control what your associates are doing because if what is being published

23     has a boomerang effect on you, this could pose a very great problem.

24             Please address the other points you wish to address.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will provide you with

Page 14812

 1     five copies of those three books as soon as possible, and they'll be

 2     coming out in a week.  And you'll be able to see for yourselves, and I'm

 3     convinced in advance that there is nothing controversial there in its

 4     contents.  Now that some of the people will be -- will go mad when they

 5     hear the titles of the books, that's another matter.

 6             But I wanted to say something else.  You made the decision and

 7     said that the Prosecution will not have more time, and you've now given

 8     us some different figures.  Now I have reliable information that the

 9     Prosecution has five hours and 15 minutes left for the Prosecution case,

10     if you do not count any re-direct or additional examination, and this is

11     something that the Registrar calculated for me seven or eight months ago.

12     Now, the Prosecution, therefore, has just one more witness to call.

13             I'm very happy to have that witness come in as soon as possible,

14     although in formal terms you have not increased the number of hours to

15     the Prosecution, you have taken over the Prosecution witnesses as the

16     witnesses of the Chamber, of the Court.  And most of those witnesses have

17     expressed the desire to be Defence witnesses.  We've already had cases of

18     that kind.  You found one such witness in contempt of court because he

19     did not wish to testify.  Whether you're going to have any more such

20     cases, I don't know, I can't say.  However, of the seven witnesses listed

21     here, six plus one that is, at least four of them, at least four, have

22     made statements to my Defence team and expressed their desire to be

23     witnesses for the Defence.  Many of them have spoken publicly and said

24     that they were badly treated by the Prosecution, that tried to blackmail

25     them and exert pressure on them, and this one Witness VS-206 was taken to

Page 14813

 1     a Nordic country, held there for a week with his wife, and since they did

 2     not comply with all their promises he asked to go back to Serbia and then

 3     contacted my Defence team and described all this.  So I'm just drawing

 4     your attention to all the things that exist since you've made your

 5     decision that's it.  I will cross-examine each of those witnesses, but

 6     the problem is there, a problem obviously exists.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seselj.

 8             Mr. Marcussen, do you wish to make any observations?  We shall

 9     hear them now.

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  First, let me just

11     inform you that we in addition to the people you already know, Ms. Divya

12     Prasad and Jasmina Bosnjakovic have our -- one of our new interns,

13     Ms. Mandy Stewart with us today so you know who is sitting here on the

14     bench here with me.

15             I don't have many observations to make.  We will get back to the

16     Chamber within the next eight days regarding the remaining -- the three

17     witnesses we have been asked about, and we are reading the decision to

18     see whether or not there is a need to seek certification through appeal.

19     We will do that if necessary under Rule 72(C)(ii).

20             One matter I would raise is the Trial Chamber has ordered that

21     the parties cannot contact any of the newly appointed -- or the witnesses

22     that have been designated as Court witnesses.  I was going to suggest

23     that maybe the Trial Chamber wish to supplement that order with a

24     direction to the parties that if any of the witnesses contact a party

25     then the Trial Chamber should be notified and maybe also the other party.

Page 14814

 1     Because it may of course be that a witness contact one of the party of

 2     their own motion, so to avoid any ambiguity as to what the context are

 3     with these witnesses that the Chamber wish the parties not contact that

 4     might be a good message to put in place.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We actually didn't think of

 6     that, but of course since the Trial Chamber trusts the parties, if one of

 7     the witnesses - let's take the case of VS-032 - calls Mr. Seselj or calls

 8     Mr. Marcussen, you will both of course tell this witness that, "I must

 9     not contact you since the Trial Chamber has stipulated that there can be

10     no further contact.  So just ask them to hang up.

11             It is very simple.  It is not necessary to notify this to each

12     witness.  These witnesses will know soon enough that they will be

13     witnesses of the Court.  They have been assigned a number and some of

14     them will be subpoenaed.  So this is how things are going to happen.

15     They might even have been listening to us today.

16             If that happens to you, Mr. Marcussen, just turn around -- just

17     say, "Sorry," and hang up.

18             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Indeed, Your Honour.  My suggestion was for an

19     additional measure that the parties notify -- file a notice of any such

20     contact by a witness so that everyone is informed if that were to occur.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall think about this

22     proposal of yours.

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  And also I was going to remark that as a number

24     of witnesses will now be Court witnesses, there's going to be -- it's

25     going to be likely that there would be issues arising as to information

Page 14815

 1     obtained by the Trial Chamber in relation to these witnesses in the

 2     preparation of their testimony and maybe in the context of preparing

 3     their -- making the practical arrangements for the appearance before the

 4     Trial Chamber.

 5             So the Prosecution just wishes to stress that it would be

 6     important for the appearance of how the trial is conducted that there are

 7     disclosures to both parties of any information that might impact on their

 8     credibility, might mitigate the guilt of the accused, or might be

 9     relevant to their testimony in some way.  Of course the disclosure rules

10     that normally apply, apply to the parties; but it will be important that

11     some mechanisms are found for sort of Chamber disclosure to the parties

12     of any information that the Trial Chamber needs to elicit from these

13     witnesses in the context of the preparation of their testimony if

14     something come up like that.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Marcussen, the Chamber is not going to

16     conduct any investigation on its own.  The Chamber will call these

17     witnesses, and we will then examine them first on the basis of the

18     material that has already been provided to us by the Prosecution.  That

19     is the foundation and the basis upon which the Chamber will conduct the

20     first examination.  Then each of the parties, Mr. Seselj and yourself,

21     will have the chance to - if I may use the

22     expression - cross-examination, in lack of any better word.  And may I

23     remind you that for the purpose of your cross-examination of the

24     witnesses, both parties are obliged to indicate to the Trial Chamber and

25     to the other party which documents they need to -- they wish to introduce

Page 14816

 1     or to bring up and to put to the witness during the cross-examination.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, let me add

 3     something.  From what I understood from what you said, we shall - as

 4     Judge Harhoff has just said - subpoena these witnesses.  For three of

 5     them at least we have asked to have medical certificates.  Of course when

 6     these documents arrive, we shall hand these over to you and to

 7     Mr. Seselj.  If one of the witnesses writes to us and tells us the

 8     following, "You have asked me to come at the end of January, I cannot

 9     because my mother-in-law is going to be operated on that day," that

10     letter will then be forwarded to you, and it will be forwarded to

11     Mr. Seselj as well.

12             All the contacts we have with these witnesses, these will be

13     formal contacts on the date of their arrival and their medical condition.

14     All of this will be forwarded to you.  That is, however, when they come

15     in the courtroom we shall drop the blinds since they have been granted

16     protective measures.  We will tell them, "You are Witness 026, you have

17     been granted protective measures because the Prosecution at the time, and

18     so on and so forth.  Do you wish to still have protective measures, or do

19     you wish to testify in public?"  And if the witness says, "I wish to

20     testify in public," then we lift the blinds, we ask them to take the

21     solemn declaration in open session.  And if the person wishes to maintain

22     these protective measures, so be it.  That is not a problem.

23             As my colleague has just said, we shall put questions to the

24     witness.  You understand the outline of -- what the outline of the

25     questions will be, the outline will always be the same.  And once we have

Page 14817

 1     checked the major points of his statement, you can then put questions and

 2     Mr. Seselj can then put questions, and you may submit documents.

 3     Clearly, this poses no problem whatsoever.  The Trial Chamber has already

 4     proceeded in this way and we all -- we are all seasoned Judges.  We are

 5     not new to the game since we have been involved in complex trials until

 6     now.  So that's it.

 7             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That sounds like

 8     basically there's going to be no substantive contact between the

 9     Trial Chamber and the witnesses, and therefore, these issues -- there

10     should be no concern.  The practice of some Trial Chambers have been

11     different, but the importance is just that of course there is no -- that

12     there might be the appearance of any sort of non-disclosed information,

13     but it sounds like that will certainly not arise.  That is all I wanted

14     to state for today.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have addressed all these

16     topics.  Mr. Marcussen, therefore, we would like you to call VS-037 on

17     the 12th of January, that is in a few weeks' time.  Make sure that the

18     necessary arrangements are being made.  If you run behind time, please

19     let the Chamber and Mr. Seselj know, and we will then hear all the other

20     witnesses, VS-34 and the three witnesses pertaining to the issue of

21     deliberate pattern of conduct.  Conduct I believe is something in which

22     we have heard a lot of evidence about already.  So these would be

23     witnesses VS-050, VS-0133, and VS-0158.  I believe we have addressed all

24     the points on the agenda for today.  We shall see each other again on the

25     12th of January.

Page 14818

 1             Before we adjourn, Mr. Seselj?

 2             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Judges, I have already informed you

 5     in good time that in the beginning of September I asked the Registry to

 6     normalise the status of my legal advisors, Zoran Krasic and Slavko

 7     Jerkovic and to have travel expenses paid when my legal advisors come to

 8     pay me regular monthly visits.

 9             For a long time now there haven't been regular monthly visits,

10     but it was much rarer than that because the Registry had refused to pay

11     their travel expenses.  The Registrar refused my request on the 10th of

12     September, and I appeal that to -- I appealed to the President of the

13     Tribunal, Patrick Robinson, but then he had recused himself because he

14     was a member of the Panel in the case of Judge Orie when they were

15     brutally violating my rights when they imposed counsel on me.  Then his

16     deputy, Judge O-Gon Kwon recused himself yet again because he presided

17     over the Chamber that passed that scandalous decision regarding contempt

18     of court.  So it was Judge Mehmet Guney who was appointed as acting

19     President of the international Tribunal.

20             On the 21st of October, he rejected my request, but I received it

21     only yesterday.  You see here the stamp when I received this document.

22     So I received this decision with a delay of one month and two days.  I

23     would like to inform you now that I have exhausted all administrative

24     possibilities to fight for my rights because this is an administrative

25     procedure, and it is carried out by the Court administration.  Now, if

Page 14819

 1     you believe that the tenets of fairness in these proceedings call for my

 2     having competent legal advisors, as I'm self represented, you decide for

 3     yourselves.  For the time being, I only have one legal advisor, that is

 4     Boris Aleksic.  I am satisfied with him, and I have Marina Ragus, who is

 5     my case manager, and they will be coming on Thursday.  However, I need a

 6     few more legal advisors, at least these two, Zoran Krasic and Slavko

 7     Jerkovic, who have been kept abreast of these proceedings.  And then in

 8     terms of the contempt proceedings, I would like to legalise the status of

 9     Dejan Mirovic who has a master's degree in law, and he was my legal

10     advisor during the contempt proceedings, and he had paid visits to me in

11     that capacity at that time.  That is one matter.

12             Another thing is that I have been informed that the Prosecution

13     filed a reply to my oral motion to stay the proceedings in accordance

14     with the doctrine of abuse of process; however, I have not received this

15     yet, it hasn't been translated into Serbian.  Since we probably will not

16     have any more Status Conferences before the 12th of January, as it were,

17     I would like to make an oral motion to you now to give me the right to

18     reply to this motion of the Prosecution.  I would write up this reply on

19     five or six pages, at any rate less than ten pages, and I would submit it

20     a day or two after I receive the reply of the Prosecution.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have just conferred with my

22     colleagues.  You are entitled to respond to the Prosecution's written

23     submissions.  So you may reply.

24             I think we have addressed all the topics for today.  The court

25     stands adjourned, and we shall meet again on the 12th of January.

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 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.25 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 12th day of

 3                           January, 2010