Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15171

 1                           Wednesday, 27 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, kindly call the

 7     case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9     This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             Today is Wednesday, the 27th of January, 2010.  Let me first

12     greet Mr. Dabic, our witness; Ms. Biersay, Mr. Marcussen, and the entire

13     OTP team; good afternoon to you, Mr. Seselj, not to forgot of course the

14     interpreters and all the people assisting us in our work.

15             Sorry for the slight delay.  It's just that the previous hearing

16     finished a little late, which is why we are starting with a few minutes'

17     delay.

18             Ms. Biersay, based on our calculation you still have 40 minutes

19     left.  In other words, we'll try to stay within the time-limits.  You may

20     proceed.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  VOJISLAV DABIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Dabic.  I wanted to follow-up on some

Page 15172

 1     questions that were put to you yesterday by the Bench.  Specifically, I'd

 2     like to turn your attention to the summer of 1991, around the time when

 3     you joined the SDS.  You joined the SDS after going to an

 4     SDS-sponsored - now, what word would you use? - gathering or rally?

 5        A.   That is correct.  Yes, I was at this gathering, and I joined the

 6     Serbian Democratic Party.  It was the only party that was predominant in

 7     the Neretva River Valley and which rallied the Serb people, whereas the

 8     Muslim people had their SDA, the Party of Democratic Action; and the

 9     Croatian people had the HDZ.

10        Q.   Now, that rally, from what I understand, started in Mostar and

11     then went to Nevesinje -- sorry, the gathering, it started in Mostar and

12     then it went to Nevesinje; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, you understood it well.  The meeting at Mostar was at the

14     football-pitch of the football club Velez.  There were about 3.000 people

15     and the weather was very stormy, whereas the meeting in Nevesinje took

16     place somewhat later.  I don't remember the date, but I was present at

17     that meeting too.

18        Q.   Approximately how many people attended the gathering in the

19     Nevesinje town square in that period in 1991?

20        A.   Well, in Nevesinje perhaps 500 people more, so 3.500, something

21     like that.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  If I could ask the Registry for what has been

23     marked as MFI 880, and specifically I'd like to go to the -- in the

24     English it's page 8, the B/C/S will be page 6, and it begins with -- the

25     paragraph begins with:

Page 15173

 1             "The main speakers present were ..." to find the B/C/S.  The next

 2     page, please.

 3        Q.   Now, directing your attention to the paragraph with the number

 4     15- to 20.000 Serbs which is a paragraph up from the bar.  I'm showing

 5     you this because in your 2000 statement to the OTP you said that there

 6     were approximately -- you estimated that there were approximately 15- to

 7     20.000 Serbs at that rally.  Does that refresh your recollection about

 8     which --

 9        A.   Well, you see, the rally was in front of the sports hall, and in

10     front of that sports hall there were about three and a half thousand men,

11     maybe 4.000.  But the others were probably walking around town and the

12     surroundings, but in my estimate there were about 3.500 people in front

13     of the city hall because the square there is not really big.

14        Q.   So where were the other 15 -- the other people that you describe

15     in your statement?

16        A.   Well, they were probably in Nevesinje in the various coffee bars

17     in Nevesinje and the surroundings, because I stayed there for about an

18     hour, an hour and a half, and then I left.  And we were expecting -- I'm

19     sorry, we were expecting Radovan Karadzic to arrive, Krajisnik, and

20     Koljevic, but I left with my colleague.  And then maybe later on the

21     number increased to 10- or 15.000.

22        Q.   Well, I'm asking you why you said that there were 15- to 20.000

23     Serbs at this rally in Nevesinje.

24        A.   When I returned with my friend to Mostar, we learnt that the

25     number of people did go up to 15- to 20.000.  In the immediate vicinity

Page 15174

 1     of the sports hall there was the football stadium, and the stadium can

 2     take 10- to 15.000 people.

 3        Q.   From the national SDS party, which officials attended the rally

 4     that you're speaking about?

 5        A.   There was Radovan Karadzic, Nikola Krajisnik, Koljevic, and the

 6     president at the time of the municipality of Nevesinje, Vukan Bratic.

 7        Q.   And do you know someone by the name of Krsto Savic?

 8        A.   Krsto Savic, I do know him very well.  I know that he's from

 9     Nevesinje and he's married, or rather, his wife --

10        Q.   Let me be more precise.  Do -- you are familiar with someone

11     named Krsto Savic.  Are you saying that you know him personally?

12        A.   I never had any personal contact with him, but I do know him.  I

13     know he worked in the police and I would see him, and I was going to say

14     that I know his wife very well because she's from Mostar.

15        Q.   What position did he hold during the time-period of -- in 1992?

16        A.   In 1992 he was chief of the civilian police in Nevesinje, and

17     before that he held that post too, head of the police station.

18        Q.   Did he -- was he present at this rally that you just described to

19     the members of the Trial Chamber?

20        A.   Yes, normally he was.  Yes.

21        Q.   Why do you say "normally"?

22        A.   If he is chief of the police station, the police had to attend to

23     secure the rallies, so as to prevent any incident from occurring.

24     Because in those days, apart from the Orthodox people in Nevesinje - to

25     put it that way - there were people of other ethnicities too.  There were

Page 15175

 1     Muslims and Croats.

 2        Q.   Arsen Grahovac, could you tell us whether or not he attended the

 3     rally you just described?

 4        A.   I think he did.  I don't remember, but I think he did because it

 5     was very crowded and I wasn't close to the stage to see everyone there.

 6     But on the loud-speaker system they announced the arrival of guests.

 7        Q.   Did you hear his arrival being announced?

 8        A.   I didn't hear it because he's a local.  He's from Nevesinje.  In

 9     those days he wasn't that important.  So Radovan Karadzic, Krajisnik, and

10     Koljevic were far more significant at the time.

11        Q.   In very brief terms, what was the general message about the

12     situation that Serbs faced?

13        A.   I really do not remember, but I think -- no, I don't think.  I'm

14     a hundred percentage sure that at this gathering or rally - as you call

15     it - there was no call for a conflict against the non-Serb population in

16     eastern Herzegovina, that would be against the Muslims and the Croats.

17        Q.   What did they say about the situation that Serbs faced?

18        A.   I cannot remember, but I think -- as I was saying, they weren't

19     inciting any kind of conflict or war or saying that these people should

20     be expelled --

21        Q.   I understand, I understand.  You're saying that you don't

22     remember what they said about the situation that Serbs faced at this

23     rally?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's -- thank you.  At this rally were there officials

Page 15176

 1     from surrounding villages or towns as well?

 2        A.   Well, you see, mostly people from the surrounding villages came,

 3     such as Bileca, Gacko, or Trebinje.  There -- the presidents of those

 4     municipalities.  These are not villages, these are towns, so they were

 5     there, yes.

 6        Q.   And when you say "presidents" of these towns, what do you mean

 7     presidents, presidents of what?

 8        A.   In our country we usually call them town mayors.  For instance,

 9     the town mayor of Nevesinje, the town mayor of Trebinje or the

10     president -- it's easier to say the president of the municipality because

11     Trebinje is a municipality; it's not a big town.

12        Q.   The surrounding villages that you just mentioned, were they

13     predominantly Serb were they predominantly something else?

14        A.   To a large extent they were Serb, but the places I mentioned were

15     inhabited predominantly by Serb Orthodox inhabitants, but there were also

16     Muslims living there.

17        Q.   I'd like to move from 1991, and now I'd like to direct your

18     attention to the time-frame of May to June of 1992.  You describe for the

19     Trial Chamber that at some point in May of 1992 that you joined the

20     Mostar TO; is that correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   For what part of Mostar?

23        A.   For the eastern part of Mostar where I lived, the eastern part of

24     the town, because the town of Mostar is divided by the Neretva River.  So

25     you have the eastern and the western part, so I was in the eastern part

Page 15177

 1     of the town.

 2        Q.   And did that TO have a predominant ethnicity, the people in that

 3     TO, what were they?

 4        A.   As far as I know and as far as I can remember, to the best of my

 5     recollection, there were some Muslims and some Croat inhabitants too, not

 6     in large numbers.  The predominant ethnicity was Serb.

 7        Q.   With respect to Mostar, could you tell us where Podvelezje is in

 8     relation to Mostar and Nevesinje?

 9        A.   Podvelezje in relation to Mostar and Nevesinje is below

10     Mount Velez, which dominates the town of Mostar.  It is some 20

11     kilometres away; however, Mount Velez cannot be seen from the eastern

12     part of the town.  So it is more or less on the road between Mostar and

13     Nevesinje.

14        Q.   Now, in your statement - and I won't go through it - you describe

15     many factors that were in Mostar.  Was there an aluminium factory in

16     Mostar?

17        A.   In Mostar in the western part of the town -- or rather, in the

18     southern part of the town in the direction of the coast there was a large

19     aluminium factory that was operating rather well and it co-operated with

20     the aluminium factory in Sibenik, Split, et cetera.

21        Q.   Did that factory make military products?

22        A.   The aluminium factory in Mostar did not manufacture military

23     products.  It was simply aluminium that they were manufacturing.

24        Q.   What was the name of that factory?

25        A.   It was called the Aluminium Kombinat or combined factory.

Page 15178

 1        Q.   Have you heard of a factory by the name of Sokol, S-o-k-o-l?

 2        A.   I don't know how to express it.  Even small children knew of this

 3     factory.  Of course I'd heard of the Sokol factory --

 4        Q.   What is it --

 5        A.   And while I was -- very well.

 6        Q.   What kind of factory is it?

 7        A.   The Sokol factory in Mostar was a military factory manufacturing

 8     and making parts for military planes, and it manufactured aircraft and

 9     helicopters, planes, and helicopters.

10        Q.   Now, you have described in your statement and to the questions

11     posed by the Trial Chamber what Seselj's men meant to you, and I don't

12     want to go through that again.  What I do want to ask you is that:  Are

13     you aware that a man by the name of Branislav Vakic was made a Vojvoda in

14     part because of his contributions in Serbian Herzegovina in May and June

15     1992?  Did you know that?  Did you know of that?

16        A.   No, I hear of that man for the first time.

17        Q.   And do you know that Branislav Vakic has talked about being in

18     Nevesinje with the forces there?  Are you aware of that?  Are you aware

19     of it?

20        A.   Madam -- no.  How can I be aware of that when I don't know the

21     man?

22        Q.   No, I understand.  I have to --

23        A.   I never heard the name.

24        Q.   I have to get you to say yes or no before I can ask the next

25     question.  Because you say no, then I'll go on.

Page 15179

 1        A.   No, no.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  The

 3     witness didn't say "no."  He said he doesn't know.  It's one thing when

 4     he says he doesn't know, and it's another matter if he says no.  The

 5     witness didn't say that Vakic wasn't there because we have been saying

 6     for some time that Vakic was there, but the witness said that he didn't

 7     know.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's now on record.

 9             Please continue, Ms. Biersay.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  How much time do I have available, Your Honour?

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

12             Can the Registrar tell us.  I think you must have taken 20

13     minutes already, so I guess you have about 20 minutes left -- actually 15

14     so says the Registrar.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

16        Q.   For how -- just to be clear, for how long were you active in the

17     Mostar TO from May to June, just so we have that perfectly clear in the

18     record?

19        A.   To make it quite clear for you, I was there from May until the

20     13th of June, when I was wounded and transported to the hospital in

21     Titograd, now called Podgorica, and then on to the rehabilitation centre

22     in Meljine near Herceg Novi, where I spent two months for rehabilitation.

23     I'm really sorry I don't have the document to prove to you that this is

24     the truth.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, let me return to

Page 15180

 1     something that was said earlier on because it may turn out to be

 2     extremely important.  Regarding Branislav Vakic, did you know him or did

 3     you not know him?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, believe me, it is the

 5     first time in this Tribunal for me to hear of that man.  It really is the

 6     first time.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is why I was

 8     asking you that question.  We have a document that has been admitted,

 9     Exhibit 1841 - I don't have the exact number - but we have all the

10     Vojvodas that were appointed by Mr. Seselj because we can see his name

11     here and this one is under number 3.  And I have also his record.  It was

12     said that he was a unit commander, a Chetnik Serbian unit commander in

13     Serbian Herzegovina in May and June 1992, so May and June 1992.  So this

14     is the question put by Madam Prosecutor.  He took part in the battles of

15     Klepci, Tasovcici, and Mostar.  He also commanded units of the Chetnik

16     Serbian Movement in Skelani and took part in final operation in Brcko,

17     Zitnic, and Drnis.  Now, I'm interested in this period from May to June

18     1992.  We have Klepci, this is close to Mostar, Tasovcici.  Did you know

19     that there were -- that there was fighting there?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Antonetti,

21     during those two months that I spent in Mostar, I went to Nevesinje only

22     once and that is the moment I was wounded.  But you are right, there were

23     battles in Tasovcici and Klepci.  But regarding this individual that you

24     say Dr. Vojislav Seselj appointed a Vojvoda, I hear of him for the first

25     time, truly.  Please believe me.

Page 15181

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  There was ongoing

 2     fighting over there, but who commanded the troops?  Was it the TO?  The

 3     VRS?  JNA?  According to you, who commanded all these troops?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, the commander of

 5     the defence in the Neretva River Valley, that is to say from Salakovac --

 6     well, Salakovac is about 17 kilometres away from Mostar on the road

 7     towards Sarajevo, and then from Salakovac to Tasovcici, it was the late

 8     Branko Simic from Zitomislic, which is a very small locality.  So he was

 9     the main commander for the entire Neretva river valley.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  According to you

11     the name of the commander was Branko Simic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 100 per cent sure.  And he

14     died?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- death, he died a natural death.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to know who this

17     commander reported to.  Did he report to the municipality under -- for TO

18     reasons?  Did he report to the JNA?  To the commander of the VRS, the

19     notorious General Mladic?  Who did this person report to?  Mr. Seselj?

20     Mr. Karadzic?  Who did he report to?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was subordinated to the Serb

22     Democratic Party because he was in the Presidency of the Serb Democratic

23     Party too.  So it is the party that appointed him commander, or rather,

24     made him in charge of the defence of the Neretva River Valley.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.  This is

Page 15182

 1     important.  You are saying that he was subordinated to the Serb

 2     Democratic Party.  Who was the president of this party?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think -- well, excuse me

 4     for my language, but I think that even the birds and trees know, everyone

 5     knows that it was Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  At the time he was president.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So if I understood you

 7     correctly, you say that everyone knows it.  Very well.  But it has to be

 8     on record.  If I understand you correctly, we have Radovan Karadzic,

 9     president of the Serbian Radical Party --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Democratic Party, interpreter's correction.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] -- appointing as person to be

12     in charge of the TO this person called Branko Simic, heading the TO; is

13     that it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's clearly noted

16     on the record, and if I understood correctly there is fighting, there is

17     ongoing fighting, there are units, and maybe among these units we could

18     find this famous Branislav Vakic but we don't know that, but that's the

19     way the structure is organised.

20             Ms. Biersay.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, based on your questions, I'd advise

22     the Trial Chamber that 65 ter number 1910 in your binders also pertains

23     to Branislav Vakic.  It specifically is a -- I believe it is an October

24     12th, 1993, transcript from the Serbian Assembly session, and it was

25     republished in Mr. Seselj's book "The Hard Fall of the Government," and

Page 15183

 1     in that exhibit at page 4 going to page 5, it describes what Mr. Vakic

 2     says about his participation in Nevesinje and in the Podvelezje area.

 3     Now, as this witness says he doesn't know him, I won't be putting it to

 4     him.  But should the Trial Chamber find it helpful, I would tender that

 5     into evidence to assist the Court.  And in conjunction with that, there

 6     is another exhibit which currently does have an MNA status, and that is

 7     the accompanying certificate that he talks about with respect to

 8     Podvelezje, and that is MNA P649 and it should be a supplement to your

 9     binder as 65 ter number 1636, to assist the Court.

10             And also to assist the Court, the order that you just described

11     to the witness is in evidence as Exhibit P217.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  This is an absolutely

13     impermissible method of conducting a cross-examination and tendering

14     documents into evidence.  Goran Stoparic was the first prosecution

15     witness that they called, and he testified that he was in Vakic's unit.

16     He testified that as a member of Vakic's unit he came to Nevesinje.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, we object to Mr. Seselj testifying.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- he took part in the fighting --

19             MS. BIERSAY:  If he has an objection, he --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't let her interrupt me.  You

21     see how she is shouting at me, Ms. Biersay.  That is impermissible.  You

22     would have thrown me out of the courtroom if I was speaking that way.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, up until now

24     everything ran very smoothly and you behaved yourself extremely well up

25     until now.  The cross -- you will soon be cross-examining this witness

Page 15184

 1     because Ms. Biersay is almost done with her own cross.  You will be able

 2     to check things with this witness, even if there are things he doesn't

 3     know.  There are things he know, and you can mention all this during your

 4     cross-examination.  So please let Ms. Biersay finish her own

 5     cross-examination, and then you'll have plenty of time --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Ms. Biersay tendered

 7     some documents into evidence and I am objecting to that proposal of

 8     her's, and it is my right to object as soon as a proposal is being made.

 9     If you are denying me that right and if you are calling my current

10     behaviour indecent, then you can throw me out of the courtroom and I

11     won't mind.  As soon as you tell me that you're throwing me out I'm going

12     to get up and walk out, but I am right on this:  As soon as Ms. Biersay

13     makes a proposal, I have the right to object to that proposal.  I am

14     explaining why it is that I object to her proposal, and Ms. Biersay did

15     not do that in a timely fashion.

16             This is a witness who had never heard of Branislav Vakic, and

17     then tendering documents related to Vakic ten pages long in relation to

18     this witness, whereas you had here as a Prosecution witness a man whose

19     commander Branislav Vakic was, and that was the opportunity to tender

20     these documents.  That is why I say it's impermissible.  As a matter of

21     fact, it is in my interest to have that admitted into evidence, but for

22     matters -- as a matter of principle, I am opposing the admission of that

23     document into evidence.  And now you can throw me out of the courtroom.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, no one wants to

25     chase you out of this courtroom; absolutely not.  We're doing our utmost

Page 15185

 1     to make sure that you stay in the courtroom.  And you're right,

 2     Ms. Biersay was tendering a document and you can raise objections, which

 3     is what you did, fine.  But I thought your objection had to do with the

 4     substance of the matter and not with the admission of the document,

 5     especially since one of the documents among these mentioned has already

 6     been admitted anyway.

 7             Ms. Biersay, if I understood you correctly, all the documents you

 8     mentioned were documents that you were tendering.  I hadn't noted that,

 9     but now I found that out, and Mr. Seselj raised an objection.  Is this

10     what you really asked?

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I'm not eliminating that as a

12     possibility, but my offer to the Court was to bring it to the Court's

13     attention because of the Court's questions.  And the Court correctly

14     seized on the value and role of Mr. Vakic, and I am advising the Court

15     that 65 ter number 1910 and 1636 are pertinent to the Court's questions.

16     Should the Court deem it appropriate, we would - and certainly the Court

17     can also - move it into evidence.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So you are not

19     tendering this document as of now.  Very well, please pursue.

20             MS. BIERSAY:

21        Q.   I'd like to in the time we have left move to the video that we

22     saw yesterday, and the entire video as I understand it has been admitted

23     as P -- sorry, MFI P879, and we played two clips yesterday that I would

24     ask the Court to be assigned either -- to be assigned numbers apart from

25     the 40-minute one that has this number.

Page 15186

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, yesterday we saw

 2     two videos, two clips, one which was an interview of Grahovac and the

 3     other one had to do with interviews between a journalist and a number of

 4     soldiers at night.  So we need two numbers, two MFI numbers first of

 5     course, because the Trial Chamber will rule on this later on after the

 6     cross-examination.  So could we please have two numbers for these two

 7     clips.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The first clip will be P886

 9     marked for identification, and the second one will be P887, MFI as well.

10             MS. BIERSAY:

11        Q.   Mr. Dabic, could I confirm with you what I believe you said

12     yesterday was that the Ravna Gora -- is it a restaurant or a tavern in

13     Nevesinje?

14        A.   Well, it's a sort of tavern --

15        Q.   Okay, that's fine --

16        A.   -- cafe.  The word we use is "gostiona" and over here they say

17     "kafic."

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Did that serve as a base for the Karadjordje

19     unit?

20        A.   I doubt it.  I doubt it that it was a base.

21        Q.   So you don't know?

22        A.   No.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Now if I could please have the clip A that we

24     played yesterday, and if we could go to one hour -- the time code one

25     hour, 15 minutes, and 25 seconds.

Page 15187

 1        Q.   Now, again this is MFI P886.  Could you -- are you able to see

 2     the caption before you?  Can you read the -- what it says?

 3        A.   Of course I can.  Of course I can.

 4        Q.   And what does it say?

 5        A.   Let me tell you loud and clear what is written here in Cyrillic

 6     letters is:  Arsen Grahovac, commander of the Serb Volunteer Detachment.

 7     However, the word "Karadjordje" is missing and it was written yesterday.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours, objection

 9     Judges, this question is wrong.  The Prosecutor is supposed to ask

10     whether the witness recognises the man on the monitor, not ask whether he

11     can read this out.  Let's hear the witness whether he can recognise this

12     man as being Arsen Grahovac or not.  That is the only relevant question.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is this supposed to prove,

15     that the witness knows all the letters of the alphabet?

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, witness, I thought I

17     understood that you had seen him once, this Arsen Grahovac, so that it

18     was so obvious that it went without saying.  But since we have an

19     objection, could you please tell us whether you had seen Arsen Grahovac

20     and whether you recognise him here on -- whether it's him that we see on

21     screen.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this picture here in front

23     of me on the monitor, on my right-hand side there is the Yutel journalist

24     of this Yugoslav television.  I don't know his name.  And on the

25     left-hand side is the late Arsen Grahovac.

Page 15188

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Ms. Biersay asked you to read the caption out loud.  Could you

 3     please proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Arsen Grahovac, commander of the

 5     Serb Volunteer Detachment; however, I repeat yet again that word missing

 6     is "Karadjordje" and last night it was written there as far as I can

 7     remember.  And I think that I do remember that well.  It was actually

 8     written there.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, it's -- would seem

10     that yesterday the word "Karadjordje" was on the caption, and between

11     yesterday and this afternoon this word disappeared.  I don't know.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, we can continue --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you have the footage --

14             MS. BIERSAY:  -- I'm addressing the Court's question, we can play

15     just a few seconds after and perhaps that will address the witness.  But

16     for now on the record is the witness reading --

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Go ahead.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MS. BIERSAY:

20        Q.   While we're addressing that technical issue, let me ask you this.

21     You just read this -- translated this as being the Serb Volunteer

22     Detachment.  Was that associated with some other group as far as you

23     know?

24        A.   As far as I know, it wasn't.  I don't think so.  I don't think

25     that there was some other group.  As for this footage that you showed

Page 15189

 1     last night and right this moment, that is what I watched on television

 2     too.  I remember that very well as if it were right now.  However, I

 3     think that the other part of the footage was a bit dark -- well, it was

 4     at night-time.

 5        Q.   Let me stop you there.

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  For technical reasons we may have to play the

 8     one-minute-and-30-second clip in its entirety.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. BIERSAY:

11        Q.   Mr. Dabic, does that refresh your recollection about whether you

12     saw on the screen something that said "Karadjordje"?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, I did see it last night.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, I listened to the

15     translation in French very carefully.  We have excellent interpreters

16     translating from B/C/S into French.  While listening to the late

17     Arsen Grahovac, I can tell you that he never said that it was a group of

18     volunteers.  He said the following:  These are armed civilians.  It is an

19     armed group.  He said the Serbs armed themselves.  I never heard in the

20     translation I received from the B/C/S-French booth that he was a

21     commander of a group of Serb volunteers.  Therefore, the caption as it is

22     does not seem to correspond to what is actually said in the interview.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  And that is a question for the witness.

24        Q.   Did you know Grahovac to be involved with this Serbian volunteer

25     detachment that was listed under his name?  Is that correct what they

Page 15190

 1     wrote under his name?

 2        A.   Well, the Judge put it very well, and of course I understood

 3     everything he said.  There is interpretation.  What was written there,

 4     Arsen Grahovac, the commander of the Serb Volunteer Detachment, that can

 5     just be rigged by that TV, Yutel --

 6        Q.   Let me ask you this --

 7        A.   -- and that was to a large extent --

 8        Q.   Did you -- did they say that he was a member of a Chetnik

 9     Movement that you could hear?

10        A.   I didn't, and my hearing really is very good.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could -- if we could now move to clip B.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And now playing one hour, 19 minutes, and 19

14     seconds.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Stop.  I am not receiving

16     translation in French.  I can see that there is an English translation,

17     but I'd like to have directly B/C/S into French.  The interpreter forgot

18     to turn on the mike.  So let's start again, please.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Did the Court receive that interpretation in

21     French?

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I heard the following

23     sentence, which is extremely important.  One of the participants on the

24     screen says:  We only recognise Martic and Seselj and no one else.  This

25     is what I heard.  We only recognise, which doesn't mean that we are

Page 15191

 1     members of Martic's men or Seselj's men, but we only recognise.  And this

 2     is a translation we received directly from B/C/S into French.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have a question for the

 4     witness.

 5             Witness, you don't know whether Arsen Grahovac commanded this

 6     group, yes or no, you don't know, do you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon, what group,

 8     Karadjordje?

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] This group of armed civilians

10     who suddenly went to war.  As far as I'm concerned, I believe that these

11     were volunteers.  I would like to know whether you said that you did not

12     know that he commanded this group?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that properly, that the late

14     Arsen Grahovac had nothing to do with the Chetniks or some Chetnik

15     detachment of volunteers.  He was commander of the Karadjordje

16     Detachment.  However, this footage --

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let's set the video aside for a

18     minute.  I would like to know the following.  What exactly is this group

19     which you called "Karadjordje"?  Could you qualify this group?  Could you

20     tell us who made it up, who were part -- which kind of -- what kind of

21     people were in this group?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were mostly people from the

23     territory of Nevesinje municipality and the surrounding villages who

24     organised themselves, who were huntsmen and had hunting weapons.  And as

25     this -- one of these boys said, they had some leftover from their

Page 15192

 1     grandfathers.

 2             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] According to what I understand

 3     personally, myself, those are volunteers.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, so you are right.

 5             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us be very specific because

 7     this may have huge repercussions.  My colleague said as I understood they

 8     were volunteers, but in your view were they volunteers hailing from

 9     Serbia or local volunteers.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has been proven that they were

11     locals because this was before the outbreak of the conflict, quite a bit

12     before it, when village guards were organised.  100 per cent this has

13     nothing to do with volunteers from Serbia or anywhere else, nothing at

14     all to do with them.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this was happening

16     almost a year before the outbreak of the war.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in your view, when Judge

18     Lattanzi said "volunteers," you agreed with her but you specified that

19     they were local volunteers, people from the area, civilians who joined

20     that group and they hailed from that area.  They were not from Belgrade

21     or Serbia?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Far from Belgrade and Serbia, far

23     from it.  These were people from the local area, the surroundings of

24     Nevesinje.

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have no problem with that.  I

Page 15193

 1     just wanted to know whether they were volunteers or not.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So from Nevesinje municipality.  Do

 3     you understand me?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  All the Judges

 5     agree.

 6             Ms. Biersay.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the interpreter did

 8     not interpret what Judge Lattanzi just said, and you have it in the

 9     transcript in English.  Let me just say that I'm constantly dissatisfied

10     with the interpreter, especially the one who's doing it now, because he

11     said "Klepce" instead of "Klepci."  He couldn't pronounce Drnis, though I

12     see that he is a Croat so he should know the names of Drnis and so on.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Judge Lattanzi

14     spoke twice.  Which part are you now referring to that was allegedly not

15     properly translated.  The second time she spoke is on page 22, lines 23

16     and 24.

17             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Let me be specific when I said

18     what I said.  I spoke and it may be that the interpreter into English

19     misheard or it may be that the interpreter into French did not hear me

20     properly because my microphone was not on.  I was actually speaking to

21     the Judge, so no problem with me if this is now in the transcript.  But

22     this is not the interpreter's fault.  It's my fault because I did not

23     turn my mike on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this was not

25     interpreted for me "I have no problem with this, I just wanted to know

Page 15194

 1     whether they were volunteers or not."  This is in the transcript and this

 2     was not interpreted for me.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, I think the problem

 4     arises from the first time Judge Lattanzi spoke when she spoke about

 5     volunteers and it may be that it was not properly interpreted then.  But

 6     I think that we now -- we all are in the clear.  That's at least what I

 7     hope.

 8             Please, Ms. Biersay.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I understand that I have about five

10     minutes left, and with the Court's leave what I would respectfully

11     request is that I reserve it.  There are certain issues that the Bench

12     covered that I don't believe is necessary to cover again with the

13     witness, but depending on the nature of Mr. Seselj's cross-examination I

14     would ask for some latitude in using that five minutes as a kind of --

15     I'm not sure what to call it, but perhaps re-direct.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, but, Ms. Biersay, you

17     were trained in the common-law system.  You know better than I do that as

18     a rule when a witness is called by the Trial Chamber and becomes a

19     Chamber witness, nobody can ask a question after the Trial Chamber.

20     That's one possibility.  The Chamber may decide to reduce the duration of

21     the time reserved for questions.  We said that you had one hour and a

22     half.  Mr. Seselj had the same time.  You now would like to keep those

23     five minutes just in case.  I'm going to ask my colleagues.  I have no

24     problem with that.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 15195

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we say that as a rule you're

 2     not allowed to have any time after the cross-examination, but since you

 3     have five minutes left you may use it if you want to use it later on.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Excuse me, thank you.  My

 5     mike wasn't on.  And I could make submissions on it later, but in the

 6     interests of time I simply want to say that we will move for the

 7     admission of the witness's 2000 statement as well as his 2004 statement

 8     that was -- that were made to the Office of the Prosecutor, specifically

 9     MFI P880, MFI P881, and I'd be happy to address it afterwards.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as I understand it, you're

11     done with your cross-examination with your questions; is that right?

12             MS. BIERSAY:  You understood correctly, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I think it's best

14     to have a break now, a 20-minute break.  In this way Mr. Seselj will be

15     able to start after the break with his questions because he's going to

16     have an hour and a half at his disposal.

17                           --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The court is back in session.

20     Mr. Seselj has the floor for his cross-examination.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Seselj:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dabic, you have given two statements for The

23     Hague Prosecutors; isn't that so?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And for the team assisting my Defence, you have already made

Page 15196

 1     eight statements; is that so?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   You gave me statements that I needed for the cross-examination of

 4     some other witnesses; do you remember that?

 5        A.   Perfectly.

 6        Q.   Your first statement consists of 39 typed pages.  If I'm not

 7     mistaken, that is the lengthiest statement that appeared in these

 8     proceedings against me, and I'm impressed that you demonstrated

 9     encyclopedic knowledge about the events in eastern Herzegovina during the

10     war.  In that whole statement consisting of 39 closely typed pages, only

11     in three places do you mention either my name or Seseljevci or volunteers

12     of the Serbian Radical Party; isn't that so?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Now let us see where you do so.  The first time you mention my

15     name is in connection with the video-clips that we viewed a moment ago.

16     These videos are -- date back to July 1991, as we were told by the

17     Prosecution; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That was a time when there were no armed conflicts in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, except for some confrontation in western Herzegovina

21     between the JNA and the Croatian rebels; is that so?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And the Serbs learned that the surrounding Muslims and Croats

24     were arming and they also started to procure weapons and to hold night

25     guard duty; is that so?

Page 15197

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Dabic, you speak the same language, but

 3     nothing can be interpreted to the benefit of the Chamber if you overlap.

 4     So please, please do not answer the questions put to you by Mr. Seselj

 5     before a little moment has elapsed.  And if you are observant you will

 6     see that on your screen in front of you there's the rolling text and

 7     there is the cursor, and when the cursor stops moving that's the time

 8     when the interpretation is completed.  The usher will help you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Shall I continue?

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So wait for it to stop and then answer.

11             And, Mr. Seselj, I don't need to repeat it to you but also take

12     it easy.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On page 11 you mention my name for the first time and you say

15     that these men who belonged to the group of Arsen Grahovac, Karadjordje,

16     you called them a group; later on you called them a unit.  Am I right,

17     they were still a group here?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you have your statement?

20             I would like someone to give you both your statements for the

21     Prosecution which would facilitate things because I only have one copy.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Are you giving it in B/C/S?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only have it in Serbian.  I am

24     not familiar with B/C/S.  I never learned it and I don't believe I ever

25     will.

Page 15198

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If you only need the Serbian

 2     copy, I don't need it.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, Your Honour, if I may.  I believe

 4     Mr. Seselj is referring to the 2000 statement that was given to the OTP.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's what we're talking

 6     about, and I'm going through that statement.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  And that -- right.  And that's available in e-court

 8     at -- now is MFI 880, I believe --

 9             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I thought it was one of the

10     eight statements provided to your Defence team.  Sorry.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So here you refer to a group, not to a formed unit.  A group of

13     men had armed themselves and are holding night guard duty.  Am I right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And we saw that Arsen Grahovac was wearing civilian clothes.

16     He's not in uniform; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we saw that one of those armed men says that they don't trust

19     anyone more or less and that they only recognise Martic and Seselj.  Did

20     you hear him say that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that is what you stated in your statement, but they said they

23     support Karadzic, Seselj, and Martic and their efforts.  So it's not as

24     precise in the statement as it is in the clip.  They never mentioned

25     Karadzic, did they?

Page 15199

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   You remember that in the summer of 1991 there were no armed

 3     conflicts between Serbs and Muslims?

 4        A.   Do you mean in eastern Herzegovina?

 5        Q.   In the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6        A.   Of course not.

 7        Q.   But --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute.  Let me

 9     compare page 11 with the video we saw.  It's almost identical, but

10     there's a slight problem.  In the video there is no mention of

11     Mr. Karadzic, but here we have the name of Karadzic.  Why is that?  Can

12     you explain?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why Karadzic is being mentioned?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember well that on one

16     occasion with a friend of mine I was going to Nevesinje and I was

17     stopped, and this friend is from Nevesinje and he lives there.  And I was

18     stopped at a barricade and they asked for our documents, and they

19     mentioned Karadzic as well.  But Dr. Seselj and Martic were mentioned

20     only in the video-clip.  Actually, when they stopped us they asked us:

21     Are you for Karadzic?  Until they saw our documents.  And when they saw

22     our documents, they let us go.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   In the summer of 1991, was I popular among Serbs in

Page 15200

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Well, I think the chances were 50/50.

 3        Q.   What do you mean chances?

 4        A.   You were for some and not for others.

 5        Q.   But at least there was one person among these night guards who

 6     considered me to be popular; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, and I apologise.  I think I know that man.  He had a

 8     nickname, Usro.

 9        Q.   Why such a nickname?

10        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know.  It's a funny nickname.

11        Q.   Among Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, had they heard that

12     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party had been engaged in various

13     places within the Federal Republic of Croatia in defence of Serb

14     villages?

15             Could you please give me yes or no answers if possible.

16        A.   Yes, we saw that on television.

17        Q.   So did you learn on television of the great victory of the

18     volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party on the 2nd of May in Borovo Selo

19     against the Croatian police and paramilitary forces?

20        A.   I just heard of the victory of the Yugoslav People's Army.

21        Q.   On the 2nd of May?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Who did the JNA defeat on the 2nd of May?

24        A.   In Borovo Selo.  It couldn't defeat anyone in Borovo Selo.  It

25     was a Serb village in Croatia.

Page 15201

 1        Q.   Yes, but the village had been attacked by Croatian policemen and

 2     paramilitary forces?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Very well.  You don't know, so I won't insist.

 5             One man mentions my name and Martic's name, that he supports us.

 6     Nice of him.  How did you find such an ugly nickname?  I don't know.  The

 7     second time you mention my name is on page 17, that upon -- at the entry

 8     into Mostar you saw a check-point with Seselj's men armed to the teeth

 9     and wearing cockades.  You heard that volunteers of the Serbian Radical

10     Party during April and May 1992 were in Mostar?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you hear who was in command of those volunteers?

13        A.   Can I go back to this check-point?

14        Q.   Could you please give me brief answers.  We'll come back to the

15     check-point.  Please answer my questions.

16        A.   I didn't hear who was in command.

17        Q.   Do you know where General Perisic's headquarters were in Mostar?

18        A.   Momcilo Perisic, I think in the southern camp.

19        Q.   Do you know that next to his headquarters were volunteers of the

20     Serbian Radical Party, up to 100 strong, and that they were used as an

21     intervention unit that acted upon his orders and went where the situation

22     was most critical?

23        A.   Dr. Seselj, I hear this from you for the first time.  I heard

24     that they were in the Benkovac settlement in the garrison command, and

25     they didn't walk around town at all, I didn't see them, because they were

Page 15202

 1     in an intervention unit and they were sent where they were mostly needed.

 2        Q.   You heard of Klepci, Prebilovci, Tasovcici, and other Serbian

 3     villages that were surrounded.  General Perisic sent them there as an

 4     intervention unit.  So you hadn't heard of that?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did you ever hear of Oliver Baret --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are going much too fast and

 8     I think this is why Ms. Biersay is on her feet.  Mr. Seselj, you are

 9     speaking much too fast and because of this the villages you mentioned

10     cannot be recorded on the transcript.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you ever hear of Oliver Denis Baret?

13        A.   I did not.  I hear it from you.

14        Q.   So you're hearing this name from me for the first time as the

15     commander of this unit of volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party, the

16     so-called Seseljevci in Mostar?

17        A.   Yes, for the first time.

18        Q.   But you said that Seselj's men held a check-point and I was

19     surprised by this.  What would Seselj's men be doing at the check-point?

20        A.   So we're coming back to the check-point.  When I got to Mostar,

21     or rather, in Nevesinje and when I started off from Nevesinje - and I

22     said this last night here in court - driving a Renault 4 vehicle, upon

23     the entrance to the town near two petrol stations there were a group of

24     men and I asked the policeman:  Who are they?  And he said that they were

25     Seseljevci.  I didn't ask where they were from.

Page 15203

 1        Q.   Was it customary for the military police to hold check-points?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you ask yourself what would Seseljevci be doing there?

 4        A.   It wasn't clear to me.

 5        Q.   So you were not certain that Seselj's men were holding this

 6     check-point?

 7        A.   I don't think they were Seselj's men.

 8        Q.   But it says that here.  So you're not sure about that?

 9        A.   I heard that from these policemen.

10        Q.   And the third place you refer to Seselj's men is on page 23, and

11     you say that in Nevesinje there were about 100 Seselj's men and about 50

12     armed volunteers, et cetera.  Do you remember that?

13        A.   I do, but those were probably when they were withdrawing from

14     town, when those from the garrison command had withdrawn.

15        Q.   But what are Seselj's men doing among the people withdrawing from

16     the garrison?

17        A.   This was during the withdrawal from Mostar.

18        Q.   Seselj's men withdrew from Mostar when the JNA withdrew, and this

19     had to be before the 25th of May, 1992, and do you know why?  Because

20     their commander, Oliver Denis Baret, was with me in Podgorica on the 25th

21     of May.  Did you hear that on the 25th of May, 1992, in Podgorica an

22     assassination attempt was made at me, that a Muslim threw a hand-grenade

23     at me after a rally of the Serbian Radical Party?

24        A.   I hear of that for the first time.

25        Q.   So you didn't hear that Oliver Denis Baret was seriously wounded,

Page 15204

 1     that he had several shots in his lower stomach and legs?

 2        A.   I really don't know about that.

 3        Q.   Because I've given the book to the Prosecution called the

 4     "Podgorica Assassination" with all the court documents showing that

 5     Oliver Denis Baret was one of the injured in that assassination together

 6     with Miroslav Vukovic.  So they withdrew.  If Oliver was in Podgorica on

 7     the 25th of May, all of them had to have withdrawn by that date.

 8             And you never heard of Branislav Vakic?

 9        A.   Never.  I heard that name for the first time here in court.

10        Q.   But you heard that there were Seselj's men in Nevesinje; isn't

11     that so?

12        A.   I heard only about the garrison command.

13        Q.   I have been given a document by the Prosecution, a certificate by

14     General Novica Grusic.  Could it be placed on the ELMO, please.  It is

15     handwritten by the general on the 28th of June, 1992.  Could you put it

16     on the ELMO, please.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe this is 65 ter number 1636, to which I

18     referred the Court in discussing 65 ter number 1910 by Branislav Vakic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it on the ELMO.

20             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   If you have not heard of Branislav Vakic, then you have never

22     seen him in Nevesinje?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   You hadn't seen Seselj's men in Nevesinje either?

25        A.   Dr. Seselj, during my stay in Mostar while I was wounded I went

Page 15205

 1     to Nevesinje only once.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   100 per cent.

 4        Q.   All right.  So you cannot confirm that there were 100 Seselj's

 5     men in Nevesinje?

 6        A.   I cannot.

 7        Q.   Was this put into your statement just like that?

 8        A.   Well, I heard that very often from people who went up there.  I

 9     had no need to go to Nevesinje because my family was in Mostar.

10        Q.   Let's read this document.

11             "Certificate by the commander of the war unit 7640 Nevesinje,"

12     that was later the Nevesinje Brigade?

13        A.   The 8th Motorised --

14        Q.   Confirming that --

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  If possible, Your Honours, could we have the split

17     screen so we could see the English.  Thank you.  Thank you.

18             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   That Branislav Vakic took part with 19 others in the liberation

20     of Podvelezje and in crushing the enemy's front line along at

21     Banjdol-Sipovac-Sveta Gora axis.  Is that what is written here?

22        A.   That's what's written here.

23        Q.   Do you know where this Banjdol, Sipovac, and Sveta Gora are?

24        A.   Dr. Vojislav Seselj, at the time of the liberation of Podvelezje,

25     I was in the military hospital, and I know where that axis is.

Page 15206

 1        Q.   That's the only thing I'm interested in.  Keep your answers as

 2     short as possible because I don't have enough time to put all the

 3     questions that I want to put to you.

 4        A.   I'm going to do my best.

 5        Q.   I know where you were and I'm not going to miss a beat.

 6        A.   All right.

 7        Q.   So you know where that axis or road is?

 8        A.   Yes he.

 9        Q.   How far away is it from these localities where these mass crimes

10     occurred later?  Can you tell me that?

11        A.   Well, in my estimate it must be over 35 kilometres.

12        Q.   Over 35 kilometres?

13        A.   Perhaps even more than that.

14        Q.   All right.  Now, it's pretty far away from the place where the

15     crimes had been committed, if I can put it that way?

16        A.   That's 100 per cent sure.

17        Q.   Throughout your statement there are only these three places where

18     you mention me or Seselj's men, or rather, volunteers of the Serb Radical

19     Party, which is their official name.  Am I right now?

20        A.   You are quite right.

21        Q.   In this statement you describe in detail a large number of crimes

22     that were committed in the territory of Nevesinje and Mostar in June

23     1992; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, let us see what it is that you're describing there.  First

Page 15207

 1     of all, when Dragan Lozo was killed, that is page 20 of your statement on

 2     the 13th of June.

 3        A.   When I was wounded.

 4        Q.   A few soldiers took military trucks, went to Zalik and took these

 5     78 men out of the building, Muslims they were, and about ten of them were

 6     taken to someplace where they killed them near Zalik, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Not to go into great detail.  All of that is contained in my

 9     indictment and I had never heard of these places.  You do not mention

10     Seselj's men as any kind of perpetrators here.  Am I right?

11        A.   You are quite right.

12        Q.   The second place is the 14th of June in Vrapcici.  20 Muslim and

13     Croat civilians were arrested, they were taken to the morgue at the city

14     cemetery called Sutina, and after that they were taken to the bank of the

15     Neretva River and they were executed there, buried, and covered by sand.

16     That is on page 21, and there is no reference there to these people being

17     Seselj's men or volunteers of the Serb Radical Party; right?  So this --

18        A.   That's right.  That's what I heard.  The 13th of June when

19     Dragan Lozo got killed, that is when I was wounded.

20        Q.   Just keep your answers as short as possible.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  For the Court's assistance, it's page 21 and 22 in

22     the English.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Later on when the Muslims killed Colonel Tomislav Pusara, he was

25     a colonel?

Page 15208

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   In Podvelezje.  Then a group of Serb soldiers carried out a

 3     retaliation against the Muslims in the villages of Sopi --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is too fast for

 5     interpretation.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   -- I don't want to mention all the names of the villages.  You

 8     did not mention at all that it was Seselj's men or the volunteers of the

 9     Serb Radical Party that took part in this?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   You mentioned some other names --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Everybody's speaking at

13     the same time.  Impossible to interpret.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, please observe the instructions of

15     the Court and speak slowly, and Mr. Witness as well.

16             Please continue.

17             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You speak about the crime at Teleca Lastva, the massacre that

19     took place there, and you mention many names of the protagonists of that

20     crime.  Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men, or rather,

21     volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, that is on page 25?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   All right.  On page 26 you talk about members of the military

24     police who committed some crimes, organised an ambush, and then allegedly

25     they liquidated 70 civilians.  You are mentioning people here who

Page 15209

 1     commanded these men.  Does this have anything to do with Seselj's men or

 2     volunteers of the Serb Radical Party?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Let me not go into all the names that you mention.  There are

 5     some people there who are deceased and others who are alive.  All right.

 6     Well, anyway, page 27.  There is a reference to a crime against Muslims

 7     in the pit called Breza, which is 4 kilometres from Zijemlja.  You talked

 8     about that as well?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men or

11     volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, rather?

12        A.   I heard of that crime when I got out of hospital, and no one

13     mentioned Seselj's men, as you had put it, or the volunteers of the Serb

14     Radical Party.

15        Q.   Now, the seventh crime you mention, you say that that is in the

16     territory of the 2nd Light Brigade.  You also say who the commander was

17     and who was there and whatever else, and then towards the end of June

18     1992 in the upper field of Nevesinje a mass crime had been

19     committed - let me not go into all the details now.  Do you remember

20     that?

21        A.   Of course I do.

22        Q.   Does that have anything to do with the volunteers of the Serb

23     Radical Party or Seselj's men?

24        A.   That happened yet again at the time when I was in hospital.  I

25     heard that they -- that the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party or

Page 15210

 1     Seselj's men were not there.

 2        Q.   On that same page, number 27, you mention Boro Antelj, the

 3     volunteers of the SPO, Radovan Soldo, and some other people who you also

 4     identify as members of the SPO and there is no mention of Seselj's men?

 5        A.   That is quite right.  They were volunteers of the SPO and the Red

 6     Berets.

 7        Q.   All right.  The ninth crime you mention was yet again in

 8     Nevesinje itself.  That must have been the expulsion of the Muslims from

 9     Nevesinje in June 1992?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You mentioned the men who took part in that.  Can you say that

12     there was a single man of Seselj's there, or rather, a single volunteer

13     of the Serb Radical Party?

14        A.   I can confirm with certainty that not a single one was there.

15        Q.   Then there is also the crime in the pit of Sehovina near

16     Nevesinje, it is 60 metres deep.  You spoke of the crime against Muslim

17     civilians there; is that right?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   Does that crime have anything to do with Seselj's men or

20     volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, rather?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Had any one of these crimes been linked to my name or the

23     volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, would there be any reason for you

24     not to say that to The Hague investigators in 2000?  You made -- you gave

25     this statement in the year 2000?

Page 15211

 1        A.   That's right, yes.  I did give that statement, yes.

 2        Q.   You did not have any information that would charge me with -- or

 3     the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party with the commission of that

 4     crime?

 5        A.   No way.  I was in Mostar and I said very nicely that your men, or

 6     rather, the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party, Seselj's men, that I

 7     had not seen them at all in the town of Mostar.  I just heard that they

 8     were up there at the garrison command, and this is the first time that I

 9     hear of Branislav Vakic.

10        Q.   Because he commanded the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party in

11     Nevesinje?

12        A.   I really don't know.

13        Q.   All right.  Please.  Let us move on.  Let's just not waste any

14     time.

15        A.   All right.

16        Q.   Do you know where the Braca Fejica Street is in Mostar?

17        A.   Full well.

18        Q.   Have you ever heard of a man being thrown into a pit there and

19     that a grenade was thrown in after him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Who was the man?

22        A.   I think he was an ethnic Croat and a man of Albanian ethnicity

23     threw the grenade into the pit after him.

24        Q.   So if it was a man of Albanian ethnicity then it was a conflict

25     between Croats and Muslims; right?

Page 15212

 1        A.   No.  The man who threw the grenade was a member of the JNA.

 2        Q.   Does that man have anything to do with Seselj's men?

 3        A.   How could he because he was an active-duty officer.

 4        Q.   I have to ask you --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

 6             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The Judge has already reprimanded you, and he likes complaining

 8     noisily about me the most.  I have adapted but you seem to be unable to

 9     adjust.  So don't speak at the same time.

10             The Prosecution has a false witness saying that this man was

11     killed by Seselj's men.  That's why I'm asking you.  You're from Mostar

12     and that's why I'm asking you about that.  Have you heard of the village

13     of Topja or Topla near Mostar?

14        A.   Topla?

15        Q.   Yes, if I wrote it down properly.  Allegedly there is a Muslim

16     village called Topla.

17        A.   This is the first time I hear of it.  Perhaps it was written

18     wrongly.

19        Q.   And how could it be written?

20        A.   Topla?

21        Q.   Tople?

22        A.   I really don't know about any of that and I am from that area.

23        Q.   All right.  Have you heard of some Ljubo Kapor?

24        A.   Ljubo Kapor?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 15213

 1        A.   I think he's from Bileca.

 2        Q.   And what was he?

 3        A.   He was in the Bileca volunteers with the late Radovan Radovic.

 4        Q.   And he got killed?

 5        A.   Ljubo Kapor.

 6        Q.   Yes?

 7        A.   I don't think so.

 8        Q.   I have information here about a witness saying -- okay, if you

 9     don't know about it I'm not going to ask you.

10        A.   I really know the one what was in the unit of the late Rade

11     Radovic.

12        Q.   Now explain the following to me.

13        A.   Please go ahead.

14        Q.   In 2004 the OTP took yet another statement from you, and now in

15     that statement they quote some parts from the first statement and

16     allegedly you then interject, saying, these were Seselj's men, that were

17     Seselj's men, et cetera.  Now, it says here that you said on page 2 -- I

18     mean paragraph 2 --

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Seselj.  You

20     are now moving to the 2004 statement.  I would like to stay with the 2000

21     statement.  I've asked you this question already, but I'm trying to

22     understand.  You spent four days with the OTP back then.  We have the

23     very exact dates, on the 10th of November, the 11th of November, the 12th

24     of November, and apparently you returned on the 13th for the statement to

25     be read back to you.  So four entire days, which explains why there are

Page 15214

 1     so many pages, 39 all in all.  So this is a major piece of work that was

 2     done then.  But when you finished the interview, did you not ask

 3     Madame St. Germain what this was going to be used for, in which

 4     proceedings?  Did she say nothing to you about it?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you didn't know?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As much as you can remember - I

 9     know it is very difficult to remember because we're now in 2010 and that

10     was in 2000, so that was ten years ago - didn't she tell you that this

11     was going to be for the Seselj trial?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am stating to you with full

13     argumentation that that was not the case.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, well, the statement

15     for me was made up only in 2004.  You see how tendentious it is.  They

16     just kept putting in my name and linking it to various crimes

17     subsequently.  In 2000 they didn't even know that they would be indicting

18     me for anything, that they would be writing up an indictment.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In the second paragraph you say - and now tell me how come this

21     is here - that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Serb Radical Party in

22     Nevesinje.

23        A.   Dr. Seselj, I think that that was mistranslated.  I know that the

24     late Arsen Grahovac was a member of the SPO.  I'm sure that the

25     translator/interpreter did not translate that properly for Ms. Brigitte.

Page 15215

 1        Q.   Do you know that in the first elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

 2     1990, the SPO, the Serb Renewal Movement was victorious in the local

 3     elections in Nevesinje?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you know that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Municipal

 6     Assembly of Nevesinje?

 7        A.   I really didn't know about that.  I hear about it from you now.

 8        Q.   I have here a certificate from the president of the municipality

 9     of the Nevesinje that I showed in court when another witness was being

10     heard, to the effect that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the Municipal

11     Assembly of Nevesinje up until the moment he was killed.

12        A.   Well, I know that he was the top man there and that he must have

13     been a member of the Municipal Assembly.

14        Q.   But you don't know about that specifically?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Then I'm not going to show you that document -- or rather, you

17     said that he was a member of the SPO, you know that for sure?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In paragraph 5 you say that you know that Arsen Grahovac met up

20     with Seselj in Belgrade.  How come that is in your statement?

21        A.   I heard that from other people.

22        Q.   From who?

23        A.   Those people who were on the front line with me, excuse me, in

24     Mostar.  And they were from Mostar you see, but I do not believe anything

25     I don't see myself.  These are various tales.

Page 15216

 1        Q.   But these tales became part of your statement.  What are we going

 2     to do about it now?

 3        A.   Well, I'm telling you that's what I heard about.

 4        Q.   You mention here that you heard that Seselj's volunteers were in

 5     Mostar, there were about 50 of them; right?

 6        A.   That's what I heard, that they were up there at the garrison

 7     command, but I didn't go there.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 9 on page 4, you say that Seselj's men came to Buna

 9     and that the commander of Seselj's men was a local man known as Bovan.

10        A.   I heard about that, Dr. Seselj.  I moved from Zalik to the Zvezda

11     Cinema in Mostar.

12        Q.   And then you say that he was a member of the SDS and the

13     president of SDS for Buna?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   How come Seselj's men could be under his command then?

16        A.   I really don't know -- oh, but it was -- it is correct that he

17     was a member --

18        Q.   How come you mention Seselj's men here?

19        A.   I really don't know, I don't remember.

20        Q.   All right then.  Perhaps the OTP just interjected that there

21     without you seeing it or knowing about it.

22        A.   That is quite possible.

23        Q.   All right.  If it's quite possible, let's move on.  They quote

24     later on that you saw a check-point that was manned by Seselj's men,

25     which is what you stated in your first statement; and then you explain

Page 15217

 1     here that there were Seselj's men from Serbia there and that some man

 2     called Kinez was there commander, that he had a uniform similar to

 3     Croatian uniforms, et cetera.  Is that what you explained there?

 4        A.   I said already that when coming to Mostar --

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One moment, Witness.  I thought

 6     that Mr. Seselj was going to ask you more questions about the contents of

 7     the statement regarding Seselj's men.  You stated that there was a group

 8     that committed crimes and you mentioned various places, Kula, Buna,

 9     Mostar, Bijelo Polje, Pisevce [phoen].  And you went on to say that they

10     committed the crimes in the village of Sopilja, where some hundred people

11     were killed.  You added this:  In Mostar there was another Chetnik unit

12     of some 50 men.  They wore Chetnik insignia and then in brackets there is

13     cockades, the two-head eagles, et cetera.  And then you continued.  You

14     said:

15             "We knew that they were always Seselj's volunteers from Serbia.

16     This unit didn't have any specific name," you said.  So what you say is

17     very serious and very specific.  You said that there was a 100-men-strong

18     unit which you described, and you said that these were people from

19     Serbia, Seselj's volunteers.  This is written in your statement.  And

20     beforehand you said that they committed crimes.  Do you remember saying

21     that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you nicely that I remember

23     and that I know that in the garrison command there was a group of

24     volunteers known as Seseljevci.  Now, that they had committed crimes in

25     town or around it, I'm not aware of that.  I don't remember.

Page 15218

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but you said that they

 2     came from Serbia.  How did you know that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learnt that as we held the

 4     eastern part of the town and there was a front line there and we moved

 5     around town, and I learned from men who were close to the garrison

 6     command.  But I myself never went to that command.

 7             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, yesterday

 8     you also said that they spoke differently from the locals.  Do I remember

 9     properly or not?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, you're not mistaken.  They

11     spoke the Ekavica dialect.  You know what Ekavica is?

12             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One detail.  My colleagues and

14     I were really sort of poring over this statement, and it appears that

15     there were two groups.  There was those who committed the crimes in

16     Nevesinje, where over 100 people were killed, and then there is a full

17     stop in the sentence in your statement.  Then the sentence went on, and

18     it is said that in Mostar there is another Chetnik group of some 50

19     people.  And apparently it was this group that was made up of volunteers,

20     Serbian volunteers, from Serbia.  So given the way the sentence is

21     written, one could infer that the group that committed crimes was not

22     Seselj's group.  But the sentence is supposed to render what you said to

23     Ms. St. Germain.  So you are the only one who could tell us whether there

24     were indeed two groups, which one was it that did, and what they did.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, while I was in Mostar

Page 15219

 1     and while I moved around the area where we were functioning, I said that

 2     I did not see a single volunteer or member of the Serbian Radical Party

 3     that are known as Seseljevci.  As for the crimes and the pits and these

 4     killings in Nevesinje and the municipality of Nevesinje, I heard about

 5     them in hospital and when I returned from hospital.  So I was in hospital

 6     from the 13th of June until the 1st of August, and all this was happening

 7     while I was in hospital.  So what can I say?  I can just say that I heard

 8     about these things.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you heard about it.

10             Mr. Seselj.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   What does this mean in paragraph 15, that you were in the Mostar

13     unit before you were wounded?

14        A.   I was in the territorial defence.

15        Q.   Here it says Mostarska unit.  Maybe it's a misinterpretation.

16     Did you say Mostarska unit.

17        A.   Mostarska unit.  We were protecting the bridge.  And that's why

18     they translated it as the bridge unit.

19        Q.   In paragraph 15 you say during the period that I spent in my

20     bridge unit, I never saw any crimes committed by members of the

21     Seseljevci.  Then you mention a Vranjanac, you say that he was one of the

22     Seseljevci, that you never met him, and that you do not know that he

23     committed any crime.  So before your wounding, you clearly said that you

24     were not aware of a single crime committed by the Seseljevci.

25        A.   While I was there I didn't see nor did I hear -- Dr. Seselj, I

Page 15220

 1     repeat, I never saw a single man of yours down there.

 2        Q.   But then it says here that you heard of the Seseljevci crimes

 3     while you were in Montenegro in hospital.  Did you hear in Montenegro in

 4     the hospital that Seseljevci had committed crimes?

 5        A.   There were 10 or 15 of us there from the Nevesinje brigade and

 6     from Mostar, so I didn't hear anything to that effect.

 7        Q.   You speak about the participation of Seseljevci and Red Berets in

 8     the attack on Bijelo Polje on the 19th of May.  Are you sure that the

 9     Seseljevci and the Red Berets were acting together?

10        A.   I really don't know.  I came to Mostar after the 19th of May.

11        Q.   Very well.  Then in paragraph 17 there is reference to the crime

12     in Uborak, in Gornji Vrapcici, and you say here that you don't know

13     whether Seseljevci or the Red Berets were involved, but you do say that

14     the Seseljevci were under Kandic's control.  Kandic was the commander of

15     a battalion in the Nevesinje Brigade?

16        A.   I think he was but very briefly, for two or three days.

17        Q.   So you're talking about Ratko Kandic, he was killed in the war?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   They say that he was a great hero during the war; is that true?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And was he in this area where General Glusic says that members of

22     the Serbian Radical Party were involved?  When you mentioned Klepci?

23        A.   While I was there I didn't see Kandic at all.  Where did you find

24     that?

25        Q.   But it says here in your statement that he was in command of the

Page 15221

 1     Seseljevci.

 2        A.   No, out of the question.

 3        Q.   So that's not true, is it?  Now we come to the best bit, that's

 4     paragraph 20, and here you're quoted from your first statement.  There

 5     were about 100 Seselj's men and about 50 armed volunteers.  They were

 6     never issued any military cards nor were they registered, so referring to

 7     the 50 and not the Seseljevci?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   We just saw that there weren't a hundred but 19 plus one, 20.

10     You saw General Glusic's --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

12     witness that statement by the general.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   It says here that you said allegedly:

15             "I wish to add the following.  During the summer of 1993" --

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, what statement is Mr. Seselj referring

17     to?

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

19     continues]...

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Statement of 2004, paragraph 20,

21     there's no numbered paragraph in the statement of 2000.  The statement of

22     2000 is not divided into paragraphs, whereas the statement of 2004 is.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  [Previous translation continues]...

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Ms. Biersay, to make

25     things easier, if I understand Mr. Seselj he's reading the 2004 statement

Page 15222

 1     and you see this was done by your own investigators.  They numbered the

 2     paragraphs.  We're now dealing with paragraph 20.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  I --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you can see that.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  I understand that.  I thought I heard the

 6     interpretation as please give the witness the statement from the general.

 7     So that's when I stood up to ask what statement of the general are we

 8     talking about.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the usher to be kind enough

11     to give the general certificate back to me which was on the ELMO so that

12     it doesn't get lost.

13             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Now you're allegedly adding here, first of all when you referred

15     to Seselj's men in the first statement it referred to the year 1992, but

16     here you say:

17             "I want to add the following.  During the summer of 1993 these

18     men came to Nevesinje on two buses from Serbia.  They were members of the

19     Serb Volunteer Guard (meaning Seseljevci) and members of the SPO party

20     led by Vuk Draskovic.  They had photographs of Vojislav Seselj and

21     Vuk Draskovic on the buses.  Their commander was Zvonko Osmajlic.  He

22     later got killed.  At one point he was Vuk Draskovic's body-guard.  When

23     they arrived they joined with the Red Berets and the 2nd Light Brigade

24     which was a JNA brigade, and their commander at that point was Boro

25     Antelj.  The deputy commander of Osmajlic was Branislav Lainovic."

Page 15223

 1             So this was science fiction.  This would not be possible in a

 2     cartoon.  Did you say this or did somebody put this in your statement

 3     without your knowledge?

 4        A.   Dr. Vojislav Seselj, my position was 35 kilometres away from

 5     Nevesinje, so I heard from people who came up there, as we worked in

 6     shifts, that they had seen two buses coming of these volunteers of the

 7     guard of the SPO, the Serbian Renewal Movement, they were led by Osmajlic

 8     and apparently there were some of yours and Vuk Draskovic's.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Let's proceed slowly, though this will take some

10     time.  It says here they were members of the Serb Volunteer Guard

11     (i.e. Seseljevci).  Can under any conditions members of the Serbian

12     Volunteer Guard be called Seseljevci?

13        A.   No, how could they?

14        Q.   But you did call them that here.

15        A.   I'm telling you, I heard this up on the front.

16        Q.   Did you hear at the front that members of the Serb volunteer

17     guard were Seseljevci?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Well, who said that, people who came to take over as the next

20     shift?

21        A.   I told you a moment ago that I don't believe anything I don't

22     see.  I didn't see any of this.  I just heard about it.

23        Q.   Yes, but you didn't say that here.  You're giving a statement to

24     the Prosecution which is incriminating me.  I simply can't stop wondering

25     how I can read something like this in your statement.  And let me tell

Page 15224

 1     you something else, the name isn't good, the Serb Volunteer Guard was

 2     held by Arkan and Draskovic had the Serbian guards.  This is a minor

 3     difference in the name, but every Serb was aware of the difference, of

 4     the distinction.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know what a fierce conflict there was between the Serbian

 7     Radical Party and the Serbian Renewal Party, between me and Vuk Draskovic

 8     in 1993 as it says here?

 9        A.   Yes, that you were in conflict.

10        Q.   Yes.  There was an absolute conflict between us.

11        A.   No, I don't know.  I hear this from you for the first time.  I

12     didn't have any media available to me.

13        Q.   How could it be possible that photographs of Vojislav Seselj and

14     Vuk Draskovic be posted next to one another on buses in the summer of

15     1993?  How is that possible?  And their commander was Zvonko Osmajlic.

16     Could you explain that to me, did somebody tell you this on the front?

17        A.   I told you, because I was at the command post and that is where

18     the shifts took place.

19        Q.   And so they told you that these two photographs were stuck

20     together on the buses and they went off to the Borac Lake and that

21     Zvonko Osmajlic was the commander.  The commander of the Seseljevci of

22     all the people in the buses.

23             Were there any Seseljevci in those buses?

24        A.   I didn't see them.  I only heard about it.

25        Q.   How could you make such a statement?  Did you see this when you

Page 15225

 1     signed this?

 2        A.   All the statements I signed were written in English.

 3        Q.   Yes, but you confirm now that you had heard that Seseljevci were

 4     members of the Serb volunteer guard.

 5             Judge Antonetti asked you something yesterday.  He asked you

 6     whether it is the same Vuk Draskovic who was the foreign minister, and

 7     you said no, that it was somebody else.  And I was astonished to hear

 8     this.  Do you know that Vuk Draskovic, president of the Serbian Renewal

 9     Movement and the founder of the Serbian Guards, was the minister for

10     foreign affairs, first of Serbia and Montenegro and later of Serbia only.

11     Did you ever hear that?

12        A.   Yes, I heard it and saw it on television.  I didn't say it was

13     him.  This was some other Vuk Draskovic.

14        Q.   So someone else was a minister?

15        A.   No, he wasn't a minister.

16        Q.   The minister now is Vuk Jeremic.  Maybe you mixed up the two

17     names, Vuk Jeremic and Vuk Draskovic.  But you never heard that Vuk

18     Draskovic was the foreign minister?

19        A.   I'm telling you that I know that he was the minister, but I'm

20     saying that he wasn't there then.

21        Q.   When?

22        A.   They said yesterday that he was at the Borac lake.

23        Q.   No, no, no, nobody said that.  The judge didn't say that that he

24     was at the Borac lake, but the Judge asked you when you were talking

25     about Draskovic's guards, whether it was the same Draskovic that was the

Page 15226

 1     foreign minister.  Maybe you didn't understand the question.  Did -- do

 2     you know that the French president at the time, Francois Miterrand in

 3     1993, when the Serb -- Draskovic's Serb guards were fighting at the Borac

 4     lake, that President Miterrand invited Vuk Draskovic and his wife Danica

 5     for treatment to France and recovery, because they were arrested during

 6     bloodshed, during some demonstrations when they were beaten up.  That is

 7     what the Judge asked you.  Had you heard of that?

 8        A.   I hear of it from you.

 9        Q.   On all the Serb media published it that Carla del Ponte, while

10     she was the lead Prosecutor, publicly acclaimed Vuk Draskovic and praised

11     him while he was foreign minister as her best friend and ally in

12     Belgrade.  Did you hear that?

13        A.   No, no.

14        Q.   And did you hear Vuk Draskovic fiercely advocating the delivery

15     of Ratko Mladic and Hadzic to The Hague Tribunal?

16        A.   I hear that from you and I believe you.

17        Q.   So Ratko Mladic should be held responsible for the crimes

18     committed by his followers in Herzegovina and now he wants him arrested,

19     and the Serb people won't give Ratko Mladic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is the whole of the Serbian people very proud of Ratko Mladic?

22        A.   As far as I know, 1.000 per cent.

23        Q.   The entire Serb people are proud of Ratko Mladic 1.000 per cent.

24     And here they've accused Ratko Mladic even of the crimes committed by

25     Draskovic; isn't that so?

Page 15227

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Let us move on.  In paragraph 21 they are quoting what you said

 3     in your first statement where there is no mention of Seselj's men, the

 4     crime, the massacre in Teleca Lastva, and now you add that Seseljevci and

 5     the Red Berets were responsible for it.  How is that possible?

 6        A.   I think in that paragraph that it says very nicely that the only

 7     thing that I do know, that is to say what I heard, happened at the time

 8     when I was wounded; namely, that Seselj's men and the Red Berets were

 9     responsible for it.

10        Q.   Who did you hear that from?

11        A.   Men from the front line.

12        Q.   How come Seseljevci were at Teleca Lastva?

13        A.   I was surprised by that too.

14        Q.   I know, but --

15        A.   They had already left.

16        Q.   All right.  But what you add here is:  The only thing I know

17     about this incident, Teleca Lastva massacre, is the fact that the

18     Seseljevci and Red Berets were responsible for it.

19        A.   And now I'm answering --

20        Q.   And the Judges can't wait to impose a life sentence on me on the

21     basis of this, what you say you hadn't even seen yourself, that you heard

22     sort of from someone.

23        A.   I'm telling you that I was in hospital at the time and I heard

24     about that.

25        Q.   From whom?

Page 15228

 1        A.   People who were at the front line.

 2        Q.   Who talked about that, people at the barber shop?  Who, what?

 3        A.   Well, I heard it from my fellow combatants.

 4        Q.   Why didn't you say that in your first statement to the OTP

 5     because that is a very important piece of information.  Had you said that

 6     in your first statement, maybe you would have convinced me too; however,

 7     since that is not in your first statement but only in the second one that

 8     was tendentiously prepared in 2004 for my trial, you keep adding Red

 9     Berets, Seseljevci, Red Berets, Seseljevci, look at paragraph 22 as well.

10     And then in paragraph 25:

11             "Seselj's volunteers were members of the Karadjordje group and

12     Arsen Grahovac was their leader."

13             Is that what you said?

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I have two comments.

15     First an assumption.  If you had died, the Prosecutor would have tendered

16     your statement under Rule 92 quater.  This is the procedure that we use

17     here.  When someone is deceased, his or her statement may be tendered

18     through this rule, and I'm sure you understand the consequences.  In 2004

19     when Mr. Yves Roy contacted you.  I've never met this man.  I don't know

20     who it is.  He takes all the paragraphs that you had in your 2000

21     statement and reviews them, but systematically he always adds something.

22     Each time there is written:  I said, and then information that you add.

23     So any trier of fact reading this could think that this witness is

24     extremely accurate because every time he says "I said," and the entire

25     statement is organised in such a way.  So everything is very -- very

Page 15229

 1     specific, very precise, but it seems that now you're telling us that this

 2     is all hearsay, that everything that is written is hearsay.  So you

 3     should have said -- you should have told Mr. Roy:  I am saying this

 4     because I heard it from someone else.

 5             Furthermore, on paragraph 2, because they there are paragraph

 6     numbers, paragraph 2 for this Karadjordje group and Grahovac's group, you

 7     say he was a member of the SRS in Nevesinje.  This is exactly what you're

 8     saying.  And when you said that you were absolutely sure that Grahovac

 9     was a member of the SRS in Nevesinje and that they -- and that the SRS

10     had a local structure there with politicians who took part in elections,

11     with a local president for the party in that place, and so forth and so

12     on.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, I certainly wasn't sure of

14     that, but I was sure that this was a member of the Serbian Renewal

15     Movement, but I wanted to tell you something about what you had said:

16     How come you never said that during that questioning?  Well, the person

17     who was putting questions to me did not even ask me whether I had heard

18     about that or this or that.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  Most of

19     these things that had happened, happened during that period of time when

20     I was in hospital.  And when I got out of hospital, I do not remember

21     that there was any massacre anywhere or something like that.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, fine, fine.  You said he

23     was member of the Serbian Renewal Party, but this is not the Serbian

24     Radical Party.  It's not the same thing.  The investigator maybe was

25     confused and didn't understand and would write SRS and not think twice

Page 15230

 1     about it, fine, that might have happened.  But, you see, there are

 2     consequences.  Imagine you had died.  This document would be binding and

 3     any Judge reading this would see Grahovac was a member of the Serbian

 4     Radical Party period.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I told you yesterday

 6     very nicely that I'm not quite sure -- actually, I mean -- well --

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me read this sentence.

 8             "The only Chetnik group present was the group of Arsen Grahovac

 9     called Karadjordje.  He was a member of the SRS in Nevesinje, he was

10     there with his group of 20 to 30 men."

11             That is the sentence as it is written in English.  So when

12     reading this anyone can infer that Grahovac is a member of the Serbian

13     Radical Party.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If I may intervene at this point and assist in

15     refreshing the Presiding Judge's memory, I think we covered this issue

16     yesterday when I was you putting my questions to the witness, and it

17     became clear that this statement made by the witness in paragraph 2 of

18     the 2004 statement was indeed a mistake.  So that has been clarified.

19     The witness has confirmed today that at no point did he wish to maintain

20     that Arsen Grahovac was a member of the SRS.  The witness has repeatedly

21     highlighted that Mr. Grahovac, as far as he knew, was a member of the

22     SPO.  So I think we can stop there.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Mr. Harhoff, look at paragraph

24     25, the last sentence.  It says:

25             "The Seseljevci volunteers were members of the Karadjordje group

Page 15231

 1     and their leader was Arsen Grahovac."

 2             You see what kind of a mess we're dealing with here and how do we

 3     get out of it?  All of this was added on to the statement of 2000.  They

 4     were inserting things there because they issued an indictment against me

 5     when there was no evidence whatsoever, and then they fabricated this kind

 6     of evidence.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Seselj, in that same paragraph if you go up a

 8     few lines it appears that what is reflected here is what the witness

 9     heard in the third line, at least in the English version, it says that he

10     heard that the Red Berets, the SPO members, and the Seseljevci were

11     involved in these killings.  But it's clear that this is something that

12     he heard, and I don't think that we can take it any further than that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Harhoff, if the witness

14     had heard something, he should tell us as a bare minimum I think who he

15     heard it from.  If it was women at the barber shop who were talking about

16     that, he has to say which woman was having a shave and talked about that.

17     So I want to hear from the witness who it was that was saying that.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You have heard from the witness.  He told you

19     that he had heard this from combatants who had been at the front line and

20     who had come back that he met.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I have yet another

22     question now.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Since you did not hear that from the fighters who came back from

25     the front line before your statement in 2000, that means that you heard

Page 15232

 1     all of this about Seseljevci between 2000 and 2004; is that right?

 2        A.   First of all, I did not hear about it from fellow combatants who

 3     had come from the front line, but rather from those who were going to the

 4     front line, Dr. Seselj.

 5        Q.   Oh, so you heard it from those who were about to go to the front

 6     line?

 7        A.   Yes, who had come from Nevesinje that was 35 kilometres away.

 8        Q.   Now I'm even more confused.  Instead of hearing about Seselj's

 9     men who were criminals from people who came from the front line where

10     crimes were being committed, you heard that from people who were yet to

11     go there; that is to say, that they went there with certain information

12     to the effect that Seselj's men were committing crimes in some kind of

13     impossible combination with members of the SPO and the Red Berets?

14        A.   That's right.

15        Q.   All right.

16        A.   And as you said a few moments ago, I mean, you know, women in a

17     barber shop, I can just add one more thing that women at the market-place

18     in Nevesinje knew a lot more.  Perhaps the Court is not really interested

19     in that but they knew more than we did at the front line.

20        Q.   So did you learn something from women at the market-place?

21        A.   Well, yes, all sorts of things.  Like, tomorrow there's going to

22     be an attack on Mostar and whatever.

23        Q.   Well, on page 28 you say:

24             "I want to add the following.  The killings in Gacko that

25     happened around the 20th of June, 1992, were committed by the Red Berets

Page 15233

 1     Seseljevci, Serbs from Gacko, Bileca, et cetera," what does that mean?

 2     How come Seseljevci were in Gacko?

 3        A.   As for that period I really wasn't there and -- I mean I was in

 4     hospital.  I heard that in hospital in Meljine from these wounded men.

 5        Q.   Obviously, the investigators who were speaking to you in 2004,

 6     they kept insisting on you inserting "Seselj's men" into your statement?

 7     Did they insist on that?

 8        A.   To a large part, yes.

 9        Q.   Did they offer anything in return?

10        A.   Well, you know what, in return that would mean, well, that some

11     third country was offered to me, that I was paid per diems for having

12     skipped work, then my travel expenses, and things like that.

13        Q.   And then it turned out to be a lie, what they told you about the

14     third country?

15        A.   Well, 2000 was a long time ago and now it's been ten years,

16     right, and you can see that that is the case.

17        Q.   So they lied to you.  But I want you to tell me whether it's

18     true, then you say, yes, it's true, they lied to me.  I mean, it's not

19     that I want to get this out of you.  Did they lie to you?

20        A.   Well, you can see that they did.

21        Q.   All right.  So when you realised that they were lying to you,

22     then you turned to my associates and you asked to come and testify as a

23     Defence witness.  Am I right?

24        A.   Fully.

25        Q.   Thank you.  So that is a full answer on your part.  Thank you.

Page 15234

 1        A.   Don't mention it.

 2        Q.   Oh, but I should mention it and how --

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Seselj, but I

 4     have a question for the witness.

 5             Witness, you understood that they lied while they were telling

 6     you all this, or did you just understand today that they lied at the

 7     time?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know how it was.  During the

 9     first talks a promise was made to me that I would leave very shortly.

10     That was at the first interview and the second and the third interview.

11     So it wasn't a short-term dead-line.  Short-term is five or ten days, so

12     it's not just some ordinary statement.  It is practically a military

13     secret, highly confidential.  It's not easy to say that kind of thing.

14     You know how people look at you.

15             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I don't

16     understand your answer.  You said that you understood that they lied.  I

17     would like to know whether you understood that they lied when they were

18     actually telling you all these, all this, or did -- or is it just today

19     that you finally understood that they lied?  When did you understand that

20     they were lying?  Who exactly is "they"?  Is it the OTP, the soldiers,

21     the combatants?

22             The combatants, the people who told you all these things.  You

23     understood that when they were telling you all this, actually they were

24     telling you a bunch of lies?  Very well.  Now, I would like to know

25     exactly when you understood that they were lying, at what point in time.

Page 15235

 1     Was it at the time, while they were telling you all these lies or just

 2     today?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam --

 4             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I would like an answer from the

 5     witness before you speak, Mr. Seselj.  After I have my answer, you can

 6     say whatever you want, Mr. Seselj.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  I thought that you

 8     were asking ant the interview with Ms. Brigitte.  Do you understand me?

 9     That's what I meant.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] No, no.  We've already talked

11     about this at length yesterday.  We've understood that there was an

12     interpreter, that the interpreter read you a number of things.  You even

13     said that the interpreter changed things.  This has settled the matter.

14     I'm talking about something else.  Now, have you understood my question

15     this time?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your

17     question, but briefly, briefly.  I went to the statement --

18             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I'll repeat slowly.  In these

19     statements you're saying a number of things about Seselj's volunteers who

20     would have done this -- this or that, but you add that you heard this

21     only through hearsay.  And you also added who told you about this, so who

22     was responsible for this hearsay.  But then later you said that you

23     understood that when these people were telling you all these things they

24     were just telling you a bunch of lies.  It seems that now that there were

25     just liars everywhere.  Fine.  Set this aside, but this is what you said.

Page 15236

 1             Now, I would like to know when exactly you understood, you

 2     realised, that these were lies, that all these people who were telling

 3     you all these things were liars.  Was it as they -- when they were

 4     telling you all the lies or did you find -- realise this now, today,

 5     finally?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madame Judge, I said that I do not

 7     believe anything until I see it.  I heard everything they said, what was

 8     going on, and how it went on.  I said what I knew.  Had you asked me

 9     about something that I had seen for myself at the front line, I would

10     have confirmed all of that for you.  Basically, I didn't believe anything

11     coming from anyone.  I really did hear a lot of lies.  How should I put

12     this to you?  Well, I will give you an example.  I was a soldier.  I was

13     involved in shooting.  I'm not hiding that.  So I kill someone for

14     instance and they say, "He didn't do it, somebody else did it," so it is

15     hearsay.  That's what we call it in our language.  So that's the same

16     thing what happened.  They wanted -- they wanted to blame someone else.

17     They wanted to blame someone who was well-known, like the members of the

18     Serb Radical Party or Seselj's volunteers --

19             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly,

20     you understood that they were lying at the time, when they were telling

21     you all those lies, you knew that they were lies, you had realised that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 99 per cent I was convinced because

23     I didn't believe these things, I didn't see them, I just heard about

24     them --

25             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] But you did not share what you

Page 15237

 1     were convinced with the Prosecutor in 2004?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the Prosecutor didn't ask

 3     me that at all.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something now, Judge

 5     Lattanzi?

 6             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 7     continues]...

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm addressing you now.  You

 9     started this discussion with the witness after I had discussed with him

10     for some time about his conversations with The Hague investigators, and

11     the witness confirmed that The Hague investigators had asked him to amend

12     his previous statement and add the Seseljevci.  And then I asked him:

13     What did they offer in return?  And the witness said:  They offered me

14     life in a foreign country.  My question then was:  Did they lie to you?

15     And the witness said:  Yes.  And I insisted that he give me a clear-cut

16     answer whether they had lied to him.

17             So the witness wasn't saying that the people who were telling him

18     about the crimes of the Seseljevci, but it was The Hague investigators

19     who lied to him because they offered him life in a foreign country.  And

20     when he signed this statement, that was filled in with the Seseljevci

21     everywhere.  Nothing came of it.  And then, realising that he had been

22     lied to and as a sign of revolt, he addressed my Defence team.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this is something

24     else, but thank you, but this is something completely different.  I had

25     fully understood and heard what was said about the so-called tampering

Page 15238

 1     that might have happened -- allegedly would have been done by the

 2     Prosecutor.  But this witness also talked about people, women, all sorts

 3     of people who told them this and that, that he had understood that these

 4     were lies.  And this is what my question was about, about these facts.  I

 5     wanted to know when he realised that these were lies.  And I understood

 6     now that he realised it at the time but he did not convey that to the

 7     Prosecutor because he never denied not having said this to the

 8     Prosecutor.  As to the reasons why he said what he said, well the

 9     Trial Chamber will see into that.  But he never denied that he had said

10     this to the Prosecutor.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, continue.

12             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   You mentioned here the Red Berets, but you said yesterday that

14     they were not the Red Berets belonging to the police of Serbia from a

15     later date, but that they are Red Berets from the 2nd Light Brigade.

16        A.   They organised themselves on their own.

17        Q.   And who was the commander?

18        A.   Captain Boro Antelj.

19        Q.   But Captain Boro Antelj was the commander of this light brigade,

20     right?  But who was the commander of the Red Beret units within that

21     brigade?

22        A.   Baca Milosevic who left the country.

23        Q.   Baca Milosevic, I see.  I was given a document by the Prosecution

24     which comes from the military security service of Croatia, the Croatian

25     Republic of Herceg-Bosna, forward command post Posusje.

Page 15239

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you be kind enough to put

 2     this on the ELMO, please.

 3             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   It is the document dated the 30th of November, 1993.  So let us

 5     briefly take a look at this document and could you comment on it, please.

 6     I would like us to identify who these people are.  You've already said

 7     this is a unit within the brigade.  Let us see what it says for the Baca,

 8     what the Croats say.  Here it is.

 9             You see, this is an interview with a representative of the VRS,

10     and they say that on the 29th of November they had an interview with

11     Baca Milosevic, commander of special unit of the VRS, the so-called Red

12     Berets.  Also present was a member of the SIS, that is their security

13     service, and Nikola Peric.  In this document - and the Prosecution has

14     this document - they say that Baca Milosevic went to Mostar to Croatian

15     territory.  Did you know that?

16        A.   I remember that very well.

17        Q.   And he discussed co-operation between Serbian and Croatian forces

18     in the struggle against Muslim forces, and they even considered the

19     possibility of jointly taking Konjic in the third paragraph, the town of

20     Konjic.  You see that?  And that is the only reason we need this

21     document.

22             So the Croats also knew that this was a special unit of the VRS,

23     the Red Berets?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Has this unit any connection with Franko Simatovic?

Page 15240

 1        A.   As far as I know, no.  There's no connection.  And never during

 2     the armed conflict did I go to Borac lake, and I can assert that this

 3     unit had only one operation that was just an attack.

 4        Q.   So we're not interested in that.  So within the framework of that

 5     light Konjic brigade, there was this unit called the Red Berets and Baca

 6     Milosevic was in command.  Was that so?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And was there Arsen Grahovac's unit, Karadjordje, until he was

 9     killed?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And was there the Serbian Guards from Serbia sent by Vuk

12     Draskovic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Under the commander Zoran Osmajlic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the rest of the unit were locally mobilised soldiers; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know that the Main Staff of Republika Srpska from 1994 did

20     everything they could to get rid of Boro Antelj, did you hear about this?

21        A.   No, but I believe you because I know more or less why.

22        Q.   Tell me so that they don't think I'm leading you.  But why did

23     they wish to dismiss him?

24        A.   Because in the period of 1993 in my assessment there was an

25     impermissible trade with the Croatian army from the small place of Turija

Page 15241

 1     near Konjic inhabited by Croats, and there was a re-settlement of Croats

 2     across Serb territory.  Then fuel was brought in from Kiseljak for the

 3     Croatian army, et cetera.

 4        Q.   So you're talking about smuggling?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you know that he provided military weapons to the Serbian

 7     Renewal Movement in Serbia?

 8        A.   I hear of that for the first time.

 9        Q.   Very well.  If you hadn't heard about it I won't insist.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please have this document

11     back, Mr. Usher.

12             Your Honours, did you plan a break now or shall I continue?

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, it's time for the

14     break.  We will break for 20 minutes.  I believe you have about 30

15     minutes left.  The Registrar will check this for us and I'll tell you

16     when we resume.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Court is back in session.

20             Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

21             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   There is something else I was surprised by, Mr. Dabic.  When you

23     were talking about these two rallies of the Serbian Democratic Party in

24     Mostar and Nevesinje, you said that they were held in 1991; is that so?

25        A.   Just before the war.

Page 15242

 1        Q.   Yes, but you said in 1991.  The rallies that you spoke about were

 2     held in 1990, prior to the first multi-party elections; isn't that so?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in 1990 Arsen Grahovac didn't have any armed groups?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   So this occurred in July 1991, a year later?

 7        A.   I apologise.

 8        Q.   Tell me, please.

 9        A.   I can't see you properly because of the ELMO, please, because of

10     this antenna.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, could you remove the --

12             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We're wasting time.  There are quite a number of things I'd like

14     to clear up.

15             Did you make a mistake there unconsciously or what -- in

16     connection -- in connection with these rallies in Mostar and Nevesinje?

17        A.   I thought it was then.

18        Q.   But in 1990 nobody was armed, were they?  In 1991, yes; but in

19     1990 no; am I right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So I see you have to correct that, too?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   You mentioned my coming to Nevesinje in 1995.  In paragraph 29 of

24     this second statement of 2004.  You say here that:

25             "I came with two military trucks, three or four cars with

Page 15243

 1     Belgrade plates, and with the flag of the Serbian Radical Party," is that

 2     so?

 3        A.   That is what it says.

 4        Q.   Is that what you saw?

 5        A.   No, I didn't see you.

 6        Q.   But how come this is in your statement?

 7        A.   For the four years that I was on the front, I spent only three

 8     months in Nevesinje.

 9        Q.   Did you see this on television then?

10        A.   I didn't have any TV.  I lived in the barracks.

11        Q.   In paragraph 29 you describe my coming to Nevesinje in 1995, and

12     in paragraph 30 you say that this event was shown on Trebinje TV a few

13     days later.  And now you're say that you didn't have a TV and that you

14     couldn't have watched this.

15        A.   In the 30th paragraph I didn't say this.  My name is not

16     mentioned there, is it?

17        Q.   Your name isn't mentioned, but there's your signature at the end

18     of the statement.

19        A.   I don't remember that.

20        Q.   But you know about Radovan Radovic, he was killed.  He was the

21     commander of a special unit that rallied volunteers from the area of

22     Bileca; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   This was a unit that fought heroically at many fronts?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 15244

 1        Q.   And Radovan Radovic is considered a great hero among the Serb

 2     people; am I right?

 3        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 4        Q.   Did you ever hear that Radovan Radovic was involved in a war

 5     crime ever?

 6        A.   As far as I know, he was not, and there isn't a battle front in

 7     Bosnia and Herzegovina where he wasn't -- where he was present and me

 8     being present.

 9        Q.   So what I'm asking is:  You're not aware of a single crime that

10     Radovan Radovic was involved in.

11             Do you know that Radovan Radovic in 1994 joined the Serbian

12     Radical Party?

13        A.   Really, I didn't know that.

14        Q.   And did you know that after he became a member I proclaimed him a

15     Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda?

16        A.   I heard that you had proclaimed him Vojvoda, but I didn't hear

17     that he was proclaimed a Chetnik Vojvoda.

18        Q.   I can only proclaim Chetnik Vojvodas and no others.

19        A.   I see.

20        Q.   And that is what I did but only once he had joined the Serbian

21     Radical Party.

22        A.   I didn't know that he had become a member, but I did know that he

23     was a Vojvoda.

24        Q.   And do you know how many people I proclaimed Serbian Chetnik

25     Vojvodas from Herzegovina?

Page 15245

 1        A.   I only know of the late Radovan Radovic.

 2        Q.   Had you heard of Nedeljko Vidakovic?

 3        A.   I hear it from you.

 4        Q.   He is from Trebinje who had a unit of local volunteers, and he

 5     fought in the direction of Dubrovnik.

 6        A.   I was at the Trebinje battle front only when Knin fell.  And

 7     Vidakovic was killed as a hero during the war.  I hear that from you.

 8        Q.   These are the only two Serbian Chetnik Vojvodas that I proclaimed

 9     from Herzegovina, but you only heard of Radovic?

10        A.   Yes, correct.

11        Q.   Who did you hear from about my coming to Nevesinje?  Did you tell

12     the investigator this or did he write it himself?

13        A.   I told him that I spent very little time in Nevesinje, and I

14     heard about this when I came for a bath to the barracks.

15        Q.   Who did you hear it from?

16        A.   From my co-combatants who were living in the barracks.  We didn't

17     have a home.

18        Q.   So you said here that I came with three or four cars with

19     Belgrade plates and the flag of the Serbian Radical Party at the head of

20     the column.  This is what you heard?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And with us there were two military trucks.  Did those military

23     trucks have Belgrade plates?

24        A.   These people told me that they didn't.

25        Q.   Were they trucks of Radovic's unit?

Page 15246

 1        A.   I think they were.

 2        Q.   And I went with them to the front line; is that so?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And then you say that from Nevesinje I went to Prijeka Grma.  To

 5     tell you the truth, I don't remember this place, but probably that's

 6     true.  That was the forward command post of the Nevesinje Brigade; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This is 12 or 13 kilometres towards Mostar?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the commander was Zoran Purkovic, and you said that Zdravko

12     Kandic was a major and an operative of that brigade?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And who did I meet with there, with Purkovic or Kandic?

15        A.   If I had heard I would have said, but I don't know.

16        Q.   But you heard that I went to the front line with Radovan Radovic?

17        A.   Prijeka Grma is not the front line.

18        Q.   How far is the front line that I went to from Mostar?

19        A.   About 30 kilometres, that's for sure.

20        Q.   30 kilometres.  That is where I went?

21        A.   No, let me tell you now exactly.  Mostar-Nevesinje is 45

22     kilometres, about 37 kilometres.

23        Q.   Where I was at the front line, I was 37 kilometres from Mostar?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So you say here that there was a tank there, that a soldier asked

Page 15247

 1     me to get in, but I couldn't get in because you say I was too fat for the

 2     tank?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you say that I was too fat?

 5        A.   I told you I heard about these things.  I didn't see you; if I

 6     had, I would say so.

 7        Q.   Does any army in the world manufacture tanks for 2-metre high

 8     people like me?  It's always shorter soldiers are chosen for -- to man a

 9     tank.  Have you ever seen a tank operator of 2 metres?

10        A.   Only basketball players are that high.

11        Q.   So I could never be a tank driver.  So then you say that I took a

12     Browning machine-gun and fired at Mostar.  Did you say that?  In

13     paragraph 29, last sentence:

14             "Instead of that he took a Browning machine-gun and fired at

15     Mostar."

16        A.   I keep telling you I told them what I heard.  I never saw you.

17        Q.   Did I open fire at Mostar?

18        A.   How do I know when I didn't see you?

19        Q.   But that is what it says here, that I took a Browning machine-gun

20     and fired at Mostar.  Is a Browning fixed on a tank?

21        A.   That's 12.7-calibre and it's not mounted on a tank.

22        Q.   What is the range of a machine-gun 12.7-calibre?

23        A.   I think about 3 kilometres.

24        Q.   That would be a maximum, wouldn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 15248

 1        Q.   If an ordinary machine-gun has a range of 2, then this one 3.

 2             But this line was 37 kilometres from Mostar?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Then how could I use a Browning machine-gun to fire at Mostar?  I

 5     could have fired at the moon; isn't that so?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Well, why does it say here that I was firing at Mostar?  So has

 8     this been put in by the investigator to say that I fired at random to

 9     kill civilians in Mostar, but I was firing in the direction of Muslim

10     positions not Mostar?

11        A.   I don't believe you could have reached the Muslim lines either

12     because they were too far away.

13        Q.   If I had a howitzer of 203-millimetres, I couldn't have fired at

14     Mostar either?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   A 203-millimetre howitzer has a range of 20 kilometres, so I

17     couldn't have fired at Mostar.  Now, why does it say that here then?  I

18     can't understand this nonsense in this statement.  How did it get in your

19     statement?  You don't know?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Do you remember saying this?

22        A.   This really was a long time ago, but I tell you that I remember

23     talking in the barracks.  But this conversation was much -- was much

24     later.

25        Q.   Let me make myself clear.  I'm proud of my role in this war.  It

Page 15249

 1     was a small role, but I'm proud of it.  I did visit Radovan Radovic's

 2     unit at the front line.  I did open fire with a Browning machine, but not

 3     at Mostar.  How can I fire at Mostar when it's 37 kilometres away?  What

 4     about the moon, do you know how far the moon is?  No, you don't know?

 5        A.   I'm not an astronomist.

 6        Q.   It's easier to target the moon than Mostar because you can't see

 7     Mostar from this spot?

 8        A.   It is impossible.  It is impossible to see it from Prijeka Grma.

 9        Q.   Is there a mountain in front of us?

10        A.   Yes, there's a hill, there's a hill.

11        Q.   And you can't see anything in the direction of Mostar, can you?

12        A.   I remember that hill.

13        Q.   Were the Muslim positions on the hill?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So I couldn't see anything behind that hill; is that true?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The Prosecution could have found that clip because it was aired

18     on television, and then they could see where I fired from and at what.

19             We have mentioned Radovan Radovic.  Do you know that the Chetnik

20     Vojvoda Radovan Radovic was killed from the behind in January in Bileca?

21        A.   I know that.  He killed him from behind and he was convicted to

22     only two and a half years of imprisonment.

23        Q.   Yes, and he hid in Belgrade, and I think he served for about one

24     year and nine months.  And do you know that this same Krsto Savic was

25     convicted at the state court of Bosnia and Herzegovina to 20 years of

Page 15250

 1     imprisonment for war crimes?

 2        A.   Yes, I know that.

 3        Q.   I have this judgement on a hundred pages.  Whether it's founded

 4     on true facts or not, I haven't analysed it.  The appeal ruling hasn't

 5     been made, but I know that Krsto Savic killed Radovan Radovic for no

 6     reason and that he was never properly punished for it; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said yesterday that there were people who falsely claimed to

 9     be Serb Radicals.  Were there some gangs that would be formed of who

10     knows which bandits and would claim to be members of the Serb Radical --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Judge Lattanzi, have I

12     made a mistake?  The witness said yesterday that there were people who

13     falsely claimed to be Serb Radicals --

14             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] That's before --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.  Microphone,

16     Your Honour.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm not testifying.  I'm just

18     asking questions.

19             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You said that yesterday.  Do you remember?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know that today in Republika Srpska there's an entire

23     political party that claims to be falsely a Serbian Radical Party led by

24     somebody called Milenko Mihaljica.

25        A.   I hear this from you because I rarely go to Republika Srpska or

Page 15251

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   There's a party that has been in existence for seven years that

 3     is falsely claiming to be the Serbian Radical Party of Republika Srpska.

 4     With the help of the regime at the time, they took --

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.  Objection.  Mr. Seselj is

 6     speaking about things that have no relevance and his purpose is simply to

 7     use this as a public platform.  And the Prosecution objects to it.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you told us that

 9     there is a Serbian Radical Party in the Republika Srpska that is not

10     yours.  We have understood what you meant to say.  Please move on to

11     something else.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that that is an important

13     argument that supports the statement made by this witness yesterday,

14     Mr. President.  But all right, I'll move on to something else.

15             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   In your statement here you mentioned some other men whose names I

17     find interesting.  You mentioned Petar Divjakovic, Radovan Soldo,

18     Dragan Zirojevic, and some others; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you remember having mentioned them?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   Now, these men belonged to this so-called unit of the Red Berets

23     at lake Borac; right?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   I received information from Ilija Vuckovic, who was commander of

Page 15252

 1     the special-purpose unit of the Ministry of the Interior of Republika

 2     Srpska Krajina in the period from 1991 to 1993.  It was in Pajzos near

 3     Ilok in the Republic of Serbian Krajina that his unit had its

 4     headquarters.  Have you heard of that place?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   You didn't hear of it before?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   He says that in mid-1991 Petar Divjakovic and three other men,

 9     Dragan Zirojevic, Radovan Soldo, and the third name he cannot remember,

10     joined that unit voluntarily and arrived there.  That they spent 17 days

11     in that unit and they trained and then fled from the unit and took their

12     combat kits along.  They had red berets on their heads.  They also stole

13     a van in the village of Lezimir near Sremska Mitrovica.  The -- this was

14     the property of a company from Lezimir.  Do you know that they arrived in

15     Mostar in that van?

16        A.   This is the first time I hear it from you, and also that they

17     fled and how they got there.

18        Q.   And then they appeared in that unit and through some false

19     witnesses the Prosecution is trying to link them to me.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour, objection.  The witness

21     said he heard this for the first time, and Mr. Seselj continued basically

22     throwing false allegations and testifying, and we object to it.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that you

24     received a report from the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska

25     about Krajina in 1992 or 1993, but the witness said "I don't know."  So

Page 15253

 1     there's no point in insisting because he told you that he didn't know.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I won't go on

 3     insisting.  What Ms. Biersay says, that I am lying, I mean all the lies

 4     here come from the OTP starting with the false indictment --

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, objection Your Honour.  That was --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- we had a lot of false statements

 7     here, false witnesses, and --

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, please do not make

 9     accusations.  You have to prove that what you're saying is the truth.  So

10     before reaching any conclusions, you have to make your point.

11             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In your first statement on page 35 you mentioned the arrival of

13     Radovan Karadzic in December 1994, he arrived in Nevesinje, then that's

14     what you say, do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   However, then you said that in Nevesinje Karadzic was not warmly

17     welcomed and that they didn't really like him very much over there.  His

18     visit - and now they use these Croat words here, expressions that you do

19     not use at all.  Was that because Nevesinje was a stronghold of the SPO,

20     is that why they didn't like Karadzic?  Why?

21        A.   I don't think that's the reason.

22        Q.   What else?

23        A.   I was at the front line then and we received an order stating

24     that Radovan Karadzic would arrive in Nevesinje and that we were supposed

25     to go there to take part there so that there wouldn't be some incidents,

Page 15254

 1     right, by -- incidents caused by the Muslim army.  As far as I heard,

 2     there weren't very many people in the streets when he arrived.

 3        Q.   All right.  Did you state that Novica Gusic throughout the war

 4     received his salary from the JNA in Serbia, 1.000 Deutschemark per month?

 5        A.   Novica Gusic?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   That is what is on page 37 of your statement, the second

 9     paragraph there, that Novica Gusic throughout the war received from the

10     JNA of Serbia a monthly salary of 1.000 Deutschemark.  I know that this

11     is science fiction, absolutely impossible, because I know what the

12     salaries of officers in Serbia were.

13        A.   Well, the deputy commander was with me in the same battalion.  He

14     was also a military man from the JNA.  He did not have a salary.

15        Q.   Buzina?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Djurdjic?

18        A.   Djurdjic.

19        Q.   He had no salary?

20        A.   No way.

21        Q.   In here it says that he got 300 Deutschemark from Serbia per

22     month.  How come that's in your statement?

23        A.   They didn't have anything.

24        Q.   Did the OTP do this?

25        A.   Well, maybe they commented upon that, that they got it from the

Page 15255

 1     Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   They could not get that much money?

 3        A.   Well, I know.

 4        Q.   How come then?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   You don't know how come it's in your statement?  Do you have the

 7     impression that the OTP inserted in your statement anything that came to

 8     their minds?

 9        A.   Well, you know what?  I told you very nicely, the interpreter who

10     was with this lady who was questioning me -- well, the two of them were

11     speaking English, but I do speak a bit of English myself and they

12     probably changed some expressions and ...

13        Q.   What about these people who attacked you the other day in Novi

14     Sad and they beat you up; that's what you said?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you recognise any of them?

17        A.   No, it was dark.

18        Q.   Did you defend yourself?

19        A.   Well, yes.

20        Q.   Did you injure any one of them?

21        A.   Well, I hit them but it wasn't really much of a blow.

22        Q.   Do you know any martial arts?

23        A.   Hardly.

24        Q.   You never trained in any martial arts?

25        A.   No, no.  Diving, mountaineering, marksmanship, that's what I

Page 15256

 1     trained.

 2        Q.   Karate and judo, no?  Boxing, no?

 3        A.   No way, boxing, what do you mean?

 4        Q.   What about karate?

 5        A.   I tried karate.

 6        Q.   What about judo?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   See, in your statement on page 3 it says that you were good at

 9     martial arts in karate and judo.  Did you actually say that to the OTP?

10        A.   No, no, I said mountaineering, fishing, marksmanship, that's for

11     sure.

12        Q.   Here it says karate and judo.  And did you ever jump out of a

13     helicopter?

14        A.   A helicopter?  In Zvornik.

15        Q.   From how high up?

16        A.   Say 15 -- no 10 metres.

17        Q.   How did you do that without getting hurt?

18        A.   Why, that's not very high.

19        Q.   Here it says that you jumped from an altitude of 50 metres?

20        A.   No way.  I mean, I wouldn't jump into the water from 50 metres.

21        Q.   Let alone a helicopter?

22        A.   Not even from a helicopter into the water, 50 metres, no way.  I

23     didn't even jump off the Old Bridge in Mostar, let alone --

24        Q.   Do you remember the first killing that took place in Mostar just

25     before the war started?

Page 15257

 1        A.   The first killing?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3             Do you know Romeo Blazevic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   He killed two Serb reservists?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   As a member of the HOS?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That's Paraga's unit?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Was Blaz Kraljevic in command of that unit?

12        A.   That's correct, he was killed.

13        Q.   He was killed by the Croats themselves?

14        A.   In Krusevo above Mostar in western Herzegovina.

15        Q.   Why did they kill him?

16        A.   I think because of some unsettled accounts, something like that.

17        Q.   Uh-huh.

18        A.   Him and his escorts.

19        Q.   They liquidated all of his escorts?

20        A.   Yes, on the road between Krusevo and Mostar.

21        Q.   And your father lost his life during the war in Mostar, right?

22        A.   Yes, from a Croat shell.

23        Q.   From a Croat shell?

24        A.   In 1993, in September 1993.

25        Q.   Very well.  No, of course it's not very well.  Unfortunately, he

Page 15258

 1     lost his life, but I'm just checking some data here.

 2        A.   May God rest his soul.

 3        Q.   Yes, I say the same thing.

 4             Now we reach the material that the OTP provided me with, a letter

 5     on the 25th of January.  That's where the OTP said to me that already in

 6     2002 you consider yourself to be in danger and that you asked to be

 7     relocated abroad; is that right?

 8        A.   I don't remember that.  I really don't remember that I asked.

 9        Q.   On the 27th of May, 2002, that is to say two years after that

10     first interview you had with the OTP, did you have yet another interview

11     in which you assessed the dangers that you were faced with?  You talked

12     to a (redacted)

13     (redacted) I made a small mistake, so it's not from

14     the OTP but the Tribunal --

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, Your Honours, for reasons you might well

16     understand, we would ask that that name be redacted from the transcript

17     or that we go into private session.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is totally wrong, really.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

20     continues]...  we need to redact the name of the officer from the Victims

21     and Witnesses Section, line 19, page 87.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.

23             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   What it says here is that you said that after having given a

25     statement to the OTP in the winter of 2002 he felt isolated and was

Page 15259

 1     afraid that details of his connections with the International Criminal

 2     Tribunal might leak, and then the Serb authorities -- oh my goodness,

 3     what a miserable translation into Serbian.  And then there is a mention

 4     of your then-code-name, that you mentioned that, and then that you kept

 5     changing your address and that you had moved seven or eight times by

 6     then.  The witness also regularly changed the number of his mobile

 7     telephone.  He was constantly in fear and did not feel safe.  He didn't

 8     feel safe in Serbia or in Republika Srpska.  The witness stated that he

 9     had trusted his old friends but there were other persons, and he

10     mentioned them, who knew him and who might take the law into their own

11     hands.  That is what led to his concern for his own safety; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   That is correct, and the meeting took place on the 27th of May

14     that year in the Bristol Hotel on the Neretva River in Mostar.  The first

15     thing that you asked me.

16        Q.   That was before the indictment against me was issued?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Who was it that endangered you, if you can say it in public

19     session; if not, then forget it?

20        A.   Well, there's nothing secret about it.  There was no danger

21     coming from you.  It had already become known that I had contacted the

22     International Tribunal.  There is no mention of you.  I don't mention

23     you, I mean, or any party, whatever.

24        Q.   How could you when you didn't say anything bad about me in your

25     first statement.  I didn't see anything in the first statement that was

Page 15260

 1     bad for me.

 2        A.   Well, I didn't.  I mean, when I met with that officer I didn't

 3     say that there was any danger coming from you.

 4        Q.   Did you ever think that there was any danger coming from me when

 5     you gave the second statement?

 6        A.   From you, no.

 7        Q.   Or men under my influence?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   The person who talked to you says here:

10             "The witness talked to a third person about what he got out of

11     this," that is to say out of that evidence provided by you, "as if he

12     were expecting some kind of a reward for his testimony."  Is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So what does that mean, did you expect some kind of reward?

16        A.   Well, I thought that they would get me out to a third country

17     somewhere.

18        Q.   And that you had deserved that with that statement of yours?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   They also say:

21             "The witness said that -- the statement says that the witness

22     felt that his -- that he deserved a reward and" --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The document is being read

24     out too fast for interpretation.

25             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

Page 15261

 1        Q.   And then allegedly you were trying to assure him that that was

 2     not the case?

 3        A.   I think that that was mistranslated.

 4        Q.   Were promises made to you during the first interview, that you

 5     could go to a foreign country?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And during the second interview in 2004 did they repeat that?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   What happened then?

10        A.   Then I met with this -- this -- yes, Roy is his name.  We talked

11     and he said to me that they would no longer call me, that we had finished

12     all our talks.  But I said to him:  I don't believe that, that you won't

13     call me anymore, because I was in Sarajevo for two days down there in

14     Nedzarici at the UN there.

15        Q.   All right.

16        A.   However, he did call me again.  I know that he'd call me.

17        Q.   I got this from the OTP.  I got it on the 26th of January this

18     year, I got it just now before you came here.  They mention here

19     specifically 17 contacts that they had with you, and they say:

20             "During the third contact on the 1st of December, 2002, that an

21     investigator talked to you then," I'm not going to mention the name

22     because otherwise we'll have to redact the transcript again.  And then

23     also there was counsel for the Prosecution.  That's a prosecuting trial

24     attorney.  Can I mention that person's name, Judges, without you

25     redacting the transcript?

Page 15262

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Tom Hannis.  Do you remember that interview, that talk with Tom

 4     Hannis?  It says here:

 5             "The witness was told that his request for relocation is being

 6     refused," that you were told that in December 2002; is that correct?

 7        A.   I don't remember that at all.

 8        Q.   And then they say:

 9             "The witness stated that he was disappointed by that fact and

10     repeated questions related to his safety if he testifies in The Hague.

11     Nevertheless, the witness did mention that he is still willing to

12     co-operate with the OTP and that he would testify under full protective

13     measures."

14             Were you told at all in which trial you could testify then?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So you were prepared to testify in any trial?

17        A.   Here?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you were never told in which trial?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   All right.  And they say that they refused your request --

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have about two

24     minutes left.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I am just about to

Page 15263

 1     finish, Mr. President.  I had to speed things up at the beginning.  Now I

 2     can ask these questions with some ease which are not so important, but

 3     they enter into the merits of the behaviour of the Prosecution.

 4             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   On the 20th of February, 2008, you were called by the OTP and

 6     asked whether you would testify in this case.  You said at the time that

 7     you wanted to be a witness for the Defence.  And then that you said that

 8     actually you do not wish to testify for any party.  And then you

 9     expressed the opinion that you were put in a highly vulnerable position

10     by the driver, and then that the Court would send a summons for you to

11     appear.  Did you repeat your thesis that you were in danger in order to

12     try to find for yourself shelter in a third country?

13        A.   I did not repeat any such request at all.  I told them nicely

14     that whenever they called me that I wanted to be a witness of the

15     Defence, and if you're interested there's something else that you may not

16     know.  They asked me to come here on the 15th of January and not on the

17     25th when it was scheduled.  I couldn't --

18        Q.   That isn't so important.  I'm just checking what the OTP says

19     about you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To end I'd like to ask the witness

21     to look at this document which we've already shown during the hearing of

22     some other witnesses.  It has to do with Arsen Grahovac.  The OTP has it

23     and so does the Trial Chamber, and that will bring my cross-examination

24     to an end.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, may we see the document before it's

Page 15264

 1     published?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a document whereby the

 3     president of Nevesinje municipality confirms that Arsen Grahovac was a

 4     member of the Serbian Renewal Movement until his death.  You received

 5     that two years ago and you have that document.  I showed that during the

 6     testimony of a protected witness, let me remind you, Judges, but I got

 7     this already in 2007.

 8             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you look at it.  Could you read it, please?  It's short.

10     This is chief Branislav Mikovic, you know him?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And it issues a certificate.  He refers to the general

13     administrative procedure.  Would you please read it out.

14        A.   They took it away.

15             THE ACCUSED:  Would you be so kind to give it to witness, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you speak English?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know English at all.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you speak perfect

19     English, better English than I do.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Judge.  That just appears to be

21     so.

22             MR. SESELJ: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you please read the text?

24        A.   The whole text?

25        Q.   No, just before -- underneath the word "certificate."

Page 15265

 1        A.   I see.

 2             "Certificate, this is to certify that Grahovac, Blagoje, Arsen

 3     born on the 4th of January, 1955, in Nevesinje, as a candidate of the

 4     Serbian Renewal Movement was elected deputy to the Assembly of Nevesinje

 5     municipality at elections held on the 18th of November, 1990, and that he

 6     performed that duty until he was killed on the 22nd of August, 1992.

 7             "The certificate is being issued to be used as evidence that

 8     Grahovac, father's name Blagoje, first name Arsen, was a deputy of

 9     Nevesinje Municipal Assembly in the mentioned period as a candidate of

10     the Serbian Renewal Movement, chief of the municipality Branislav

11     Mikovic."

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.  The

14     usher can pass on the document to members of the Trial Chamber, if you

15     wish to have it, but I did give it to you two years ago.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

17             Ms. Biersay, you have five minutes, and I believe -- well, my

18     fellow Judge had a question earlier, but I think she no longer has any

19     questions.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  [Microphone not activated]

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor.

23                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Biersay:

24        Q.   Mr. Dabic, I'd like to understand exactly what it is that you're

25     saying.  Are you saying that in 2000, in November of 2000, an OTP

Page 15266

 1     investigator promised you on the spot that you would be taken to a third

 2     country in exchange for your statement?  Is that what you're telling this

 3     Trial Chamber?

 4        A.   You see --

 5        Q.   Simply, please.  I have five minutes.

 6        A.   -- during the conversation.

 7        Q.   -- is -- yes or no, is that what you're telling the

 8     Trial Chamber?  And then I'll ask another question depending on what you

 9     say.

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   And you're saying that Brigitte Germain promised you that in

12     exchange for your statement; is that correct?

13        A.   After --

14        Q.   Is that what you're saying --

15        A.   -- I gave the statement --

16        Q.   -- are you saying that she promised you relocation in exchange

17     for your statement, yes or no?

18        A.   I'm telling you nicely, after the conversation she said she would

19     do everything she could.

20        Q.   So -- everything that she could.  And what exactly did she tell

21     you, you would have to do to be relocated?

22        A.   I understood it to be a promise, and all that I was supposed to

23     do was to recount this period from the beginning until the end of the war

24     what was happening in Mostar and eastern Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Did she tell you that you had to lie in your statement in order

Page 15267

 1     to get relocation to a third country?

 2        A.   No, she didn't tell me to lie, but I keep saying that I think --

 3        Q.   You have to listen closely to my questions.  I have five minutes

 4     and I have been very efficient.  Are you telling the Trial Chamber that

 5     you told lies in your 2000 statement?  Is that what you're telling them?

 6        A.   I said and told her --

 7        Q.   Excuse me --

 8        A.   -- all the things I had heard and seen --

 9        Q.   -- I am asking you if you're telling this Trial Chamber that you

10     lied in the 2000 statement that we have been looking at yesterday and

11     today; is that what you're telling the Trial Chamber?

12        A.   I have just -- I have just said that I didn't lie.  That's out of

13     the question.  I was saying what I knew, what I heard, and what I had

14     seen.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection, Judges.  I

16     think Ms. Biersay is trying to frighten the witness.  I think the witness

17     should be told that it -- he is not up for punishment if he tells lies to

18     the Prosecution.  He could be punished if he lies to the Court.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm sorry, that would be a misrepresentation -- he

20     would be lying here in the court and that would be a punishable offence,

21     so that is incorrect legal advice.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please rephrase your question

23     because the -- maybe the witness did not understand it correctly.  Could

24     you please reformulate it and please speak slowly to make sure that the

25     translation is accurate.

Page 15268

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I see a full question and full answer

 2     on the screen.  I'm going to move to another question.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is important.

 4             Witness, you made a statement in 2000.  When you made the

 5     statement, did you lie, yes or no?  This is the question put to you by

 6     Ms. Biersay.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You did not lie.

 9     Does this mean that everything included in this November 2000 statement

10     is true?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you nicely in

12     Serbian - and I'm repeating and you can understand because you have

13     interpreters - I made this statement or statements according to what I

14     had heard, what I had seen, and where I was present.  So what I heard I

15     really couldn't believe these things because I do not believe things that

16     I don't see.  What I saw I told them.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I must make another

18     objection.  The witness said repeatedly that he was surprised by certain

19     sections even in the 2000 statement.  It said, for instance, that he's

20     good at martial arts, judo, karate, and that he jumped from a helicopter

21     at a height of 50 metres.  And now we are told that that is not true.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is on the record.

23             Ms. Biersay, please continue.  He answered your question.  Please

24     continue.

25             MS. BIERSAY:

Page 15269

 1        Q.   When you met with the officer from the Victims and Witnesses Unit

 2     on the 27th May 2002, he specifically asked you whether or not the OTP

 3     had promised you anything, and you told him:

 4             "No, they have not."

 5             Isn't that true?

 6        A.   I didn't understand the question.

 7        Q.   You were asked by the protection officer whether or not OTP had

 8     made any promises to you about relocation, and you told them -- you told

 9     him:

10             "No, they have not made me any promises."

11             Isn't that true?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, and if my brain is working properly I

13     don't remember the officer asking me that.  I don't know.  This really

14     was a long time ago.

15        Q.   So let me ask you this --

16        A.   And this talk with the officer didn't last long.

17        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Didn't the officer tell you that no one

18     could make promises to you about relocation because of the appearance of

19     it looking improper and it was not a proper thing to do, to make someone

20     promises about relocation.  Didn't he tell you that?

21        A.   I'm repeating once again that I don't remember, but I do remember

22     saying to him that I didn't feel safe in Serbia, where I was living --

23        Q.   That's a different question.  I appreciate that.  That was not my

24     question.  I am now asking you that between 2004 to 2007 --

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Biersay, you've run out of

Page 15270

 1     time, so just finish your question.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   Between 2004 and 2007 did you ever file a report or tell anyone

 4     about misconduct on the -- on behalf of the OTP?

 5        A.   Between 2004 and 2007?

 6        Q.   Between 2004 and April of 2007.

 7        A.   I think I did not.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dabic, on behalf of my

10     fellow Judges -- my fellow didn't have a question but now she suddenly

11     has one.

12                           Further Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Yes, it came after an answer

14     provided by the witness.

15             He said that he did not feel safe.  I would like to know why.  Is

16     it because you had lied that you didn't feel safe or is it because you

17     had told the truth that you didn't feel safe?

18        A.   I think first of all I must repeat once again that I did not lie,

19     that I said what I had heard and what I saw --

20             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Witness, witness, answer.  It's

21     either one or the other.  You did not feel safe because you had lied; or

22     option number two, you did not feel safe because you had told the truth?

23     There are only two options.  Why else wouldn't you feel safe after having

24     made statements to the OTP of this Tribunal?

25        A.   Yes.  When I gave those statements that year, it had been learnt

Page 15271

 1     that I had given those statements, statements which were correct.  And of

 2     course it's normal for me to have been afraid.

 3             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fair enough.

 5             Witness, as I wanted to tell you, I would like to thank you to

 6     have come to testify on behalf of -- from the Trial Chamber, because you

 7     had been called by the Trial Chamber as a witness and you answered

 8     questions by the Trial Chamber, by the -- put to you by the Prosecution,

 9     and by Mr. Seselj.  I wish you a safe return home, and I would like to

10     ask our usher to escort you out of this courtroom.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before closing I

12     have a very brief administrative issue to raise.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll deal with this after the

14     witness has left the courtroom.  You may leave.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Procedural questions,

18     Mr. Seselj?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not wish to tire you with any

20     written submissions.  On the 22nd of January, 2010, I received from the

21     OTP the public document to accept -- to admit into evidence P00019, 326,

22     327, and 328, and the OTP is requesting in an addendum that my speech of

23     the 4th of September in 1989 should be admitted into evidence.  And they

24     say that I held this speech in the St. Nicolas Serbian Orthodox church in

25     Hamilton in Canada.  Then again my speech of the 4th of September, the

Page 15272

 1     same place.  I just wanted to let you know that on the 4th of September,

 2     1989, I was not in Canada.  In September 1989, end of August, September,

 3     and beginning of October I was on a tour of Great Britain, France,

 4     Germany, Switzerland, and again I went back to Great Britain.  I was not

 5     in Canada in August or in October or in July or in November, in June or

 6     December, and this can be verified with the Canadian immigration

 7     authorities.  The speech may have been truthful, but at that time I was

 8     not in Canada.  I just wanted to inform you of this without tiring you

 9     with a written submission about it.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will look

11     into these documents.  I don't know exactly where we stand.  It seems --

12     these documents seem to say that you made a speech when you were in

13     Canada, but you're saying that you were not in Canada.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] President, I was in Canada, but not

15     on that date, neither was I there three months before that or three

16     months after that.  In September I simply was not in Canada.

17             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yesterday, the Trial Chamber

18     was seized of a request for an MFI number for documents P880.  Let me

19     make sure on the screen that it's well transcribed.  P880, P881, P882,

20     P883, and P884.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are all witness statements,

22     are they?

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

24             Ms. Biersay.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  Just to be precise, the Prosecution is only asking

Page 15273

 1     for the admission of P880 and P881, which I believe are the 2000 and 2004

 2     statements respectively.  We are not seeking the admission of the others.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I express my position?

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

 5     continues]...

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You know, Judges, that in principle

 7     I am opposed to the admission of statements by witnesses, either to the

 8     Prosecution or the Defence.  The Anglo-Saxon law does not recognise such

 9     a procedure.  It is impossible according to Anglo-Saxon law.  In European

10     continental law it is also impossible.  In European law you may make a

11     statement before an investigating judge, and that may be admitted into

12     evidence if the defence was present during the hearing.  And if the

13     prosecutor is conducting the investigation, again the defence must be

14     present and have the possibility to examine.  But anything taken by the

15     Prosecution without the presence of the defence or taken by the police

16     without the presence of the defence or if the witness renounces the right

17     to the presence of counsel cannot be admitted into evidence.

18             I'm in a dilemma now.  In principle I am against, but intimately

19     it would suit my interest for both those documents to be admitted because

20     they illustrate the behaviour of the OTP.  I hope you heard my last

21     sentence.  And they put it in a very bad light.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I did hear because whilst we

23     were talking among ourselves I was listening to you.  We are very well

24     aware of this problem you have addressed previously.  After discussing

25     the matter, the Trial Chamber decides to admit five statements.  The

Page 15274

 1     first statement was made to the Prosecution on the 10th of November,

 2     2000, it will be P880.  Second statement, statement to the Prosecution on

 3     the 9th and 10th of June, 2004, it will be P881.  Third statement to the

 4     Defence, on the 11th of May, 2007, it will be P882.  Fourth statement to

 5     the Defence on the 7th of June, 2007, it will be P883.  And the

 6     Trial Chamber also admits the fifth statement that was made to the

 7     Defence on the 14th of October, 2008, it will be P884.

 8             Next week we are scheduled to have a witness on Tuesday and

 9     Wednesday.  Apparently there's no problem about it if I remember well.

10     It should be Witness VS-1067, a Chamber witness from memory.  I may be

11     mistaken, but I believe that the Judges are going to use an hour and a

12     half, same amount of time for the Prosecution and also for Mr. Seselj.  I

13     mean, this is what I remember.  It might be one hour -- no, it's one hour

14     and 30 minutes.  Yes, this has just been confirmed by the Legal Officer.

15     Very well.  So an hour and a half for the Judges, an hour and a half for

16     the Prosecution, and the same amount of time for the -- for Mr. Seselj.

17     And as usual, we're going to share the load among ourselves, each Judge

18     using 30 minutes.

19             Oh, thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Regarding the schedule -- thank

20     you, Mr. Registrar, because the Legal Officer was wrong, but nothing

21     escapes the Registrar's attention.  We have a decision of the 8th of

22     December, 2009, regarding VS-1067.  It was scheduled to be one hour.  So

23     one hour for the questions by the Judges, one hour for the Prosecution,

24     and one hour for the Defence represented by Mr. Seselj himself.  So it

25     was one hour.

Page 15275

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Very quickly, I believe Mr. Marcussen has an issue

 2     to address to the Court, but with respect to the testimony of the

 3     previous witness, the Prosecution will move for the admission of the

 4     certificate that Mr. Seselj showed the witness, and that is 65 ter number

 5     1636, and we would also move now for the admission of 65 ter number 1910,

 6     which discusses the certificate that Mr. Seselj showed to the witness.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             Mr. Seselj, I suppose you do not object to having this document

 9     you used admitted into evidence?

10             Mr. Registrar, let's have a number for the document, for the

11     1910.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1636 will be Exhibit P888, and 65

13     ter number 0910 will be Exhibit P889.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm sorry, that's 1910.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  I stand corrected, 65 ter 0910 will be

16     Exhibit P889.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  1910.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1910 will be 889.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is going to be P889.

21             Yes, Mr. Marcussen, we have three minutes left.  What do you have

22     to say?

23             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the accused has made an oral

24     response to the motion that was filed by the Prosecution on the 20th of

25     January this year.  He has asserted, as he did earlier on, when these

Page 15276

 1     videos that the motion concern were shown, that he was not in Canada at

 2     the time.  The Prosecution has provided arguments as to why the videos

 3     were taken at the location that we say they were taken.  If the accused

 4     wants to provide evidence in support of his view that he was not in

 5     Canada at this point in time, he should do so, but he cannot just assert

 6     in court that he -- well, he can just assert in court that he was not in

 7     Canada at the relevant time.  But really, he should obtain evidence to

 8     support this claim if he wants to make it, otherwise he hasn't done

 9     anything other than simply making an assertion.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have taken due note of what

11     Mr. Seselj has said and of what you said.  Of course, the Trial Chamber

12     will rule on this.

13             Thank you.  I want to thank everybody.  We shall reconvene next

14     week on Tuesday morning.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

17                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.