Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15561

 1                           Tuesday, 2 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 6     call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Vojislav Seselj.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

11             This is Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010, and I greet Mr. Seselj,

12     Ms. Biersay, and Mr. Marcussen, as well as their Case Manager, and

13     everyone helping us in this courtroom.

14             We were supposed to hear a witness, but for health reasons,

15     unfortunately, we'll have no witness.  However, I believe that we had to

16     have an administrative hearing.  Last time, we noticed that we were

17     running short of time and that it's best to deal with housekeeping

18     matters when we have enough time, and that's when we have no witness.

19             As far as I'm concerned, I will first read a decision issued by

20     the Trial Chamber as the -- regarding the time allocation for the next

21     witness, VS-1058, scheduled next week, and he should be here.  It's

22     almost sure, 100 per cent.

23             I will also read a dissenting opinion regarding the time

24     allocation.

25             After that, I will review the situation for the six remaining

Page 15562

 1     witnesses, calling them by their pseudonym, so that all parties know

 2     exactly where we stand.  Then I will also deal with the issue of

 3     Mr. Seselj's associates through a motion made under Rule 33 bis by the

 4     Registrar, as far as lack of financial means is concerned.  And then I

 5     will give Mr. Seselj the floor for his comments, administrative comments.

 6             But first let's deal with the first issue, which has to do with

 7     the time allocation regarding the testimony of Witness 1058.

 8     Proprio motu, given Article 98 [as interpreted] of the Rules of Procedure

 9     and Evidence, according to which the Trial Chamber can control the way

10     the witnesses are examined and the way evidence is shown in order to

11     ensure that everything is as efficient as possible, given the

12     consolidated decision on the imposition of a counsel and the postponement

13     -- and the motion of the Prosecution on the additional time of

14     November 23, 2000 [as interpreted], and on the scheduling order of

15     December 8, 2009, in which the Trial Chamber decided that Witness VS-1058

16     would only be heard for 30 minutes by the Judges and then 30 minutes by

17     each party; given the press statement made by the witness, a statement

18     made by the -- to the investigator of the ICTY on 21 and

19     22nd April, 2004, and on September 25th, 2006, as well as what the

20     statement made to the accused in 2008; and given that the time allotted

21     for VS-1058 was not sufficient for the Trial Chamber to put all the

22     questions required, therefore confirms the majority rule obtained by the

23     Trial Chamber, with a dissenting opinion by Judge Antonetti, and all this

24     was disclosed to the party on -- and given that the -- all parties will

25     have an hour and 30 minutes for the examination/cross-examination of

Page 15563

 1     Witness VS-1058.  This is a majority decision, which means that next week

 2     Witness VS-1058 will first be heard -- examined by the Judges for an hour

 3     and 30 minutes, then by the Prosecution for an hour and 30 minutes, and

 4     then by Mr. Seselj for another hour and 30 minutes.

 5             As far as I'm concerned, I'm of a dissenting opinion.  I believe

 6     that 30 minutes was sufficient for this witness, and for which reason --

 7     for these reasons from the decision of November 8, 2008 [as interpreted],

 8     the Trial Chamber reduced the indictment.  And on paragraph 28, the

 9     Trial Chamber mentioned what follows, and I quote:

10             "This being said, the Prosecution can still present evidence that

11     does not have to do with the incriminated facts, but which can back the

12     indictment, without limiting itself to proving that several crimes have

13     occurred, even if this evidence has to do with a crime scene, where no

14     evidence is required."

15             Let me remind you that Witness VS-1058 -- I will not mention his

16     name, but Witness 1058 is going to testify on the recruitment of

17     volunteers, on the speeches made by the accused, on the operations

18     conducted by the SRS volunteers, operations conducted with the

19     Red Berets, operations in the regions of Bosanski Samac with a VRS unit,

20     and as well as the arrest of the group of Lugar and the military police

21     in Bosanski Samac.

22             As you know, Bosanski Samac is a municipality that was deleted

23     from the indictment.  Therefore, if the witness comes, he will only

24     testify as to the deliberate conduct of the accused, i.e., Rule 93 of the

25     procedure.

Page 15564

 1             The evidence helping to establish a deliberate pattern of conduct

 2     can be admitted in the interests of justice.  Therefore, the witness will

 3     come in order to talk about the recruitment of volunteers, the way they

 4     were enrolled, and possibly the action conducted by the SRS on the

 5     military theaters.  He might possibly talk about this.

 6             Therefore, given the number of witnesses that we still have,

 7     30 minutes would have been sufficient for this witness, which is why I am

 8     of a dissenting opinion.

 9             Now let me briefly --

10             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Interpretation] There is a problem with page 2.

11     There's a mistake.  The decision just read by Judge Antonetti is

12     referred, on line 8 -- there's a reference on line 8 to Article 90(F) and

13     not 98.  So it's now corrected.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this decision is based on

15     Rule 90(F).

16         Now, as far as the situation of the remaining witnesses is concerned,

17     we still have six witnesses - I'm not going to give their names -

18     VS-1017, 026, VS-034, VS-1058, VS-032, and Witness Isak Gasi.  This last

19     witness is not protected.

20             Now, as far as VS-017 is concerned, he was supposed to be heard

21     today.  Unfortunately, because of his health, he cannot come.  First,

22     we'll check, of course, what his health situation is.  The Trial Chamber

23     has a number of measures that it can take to do that.  So either the

24     witness will be in a position to testify soon enough or he will not be

25     able to, or maybe he could testify through a videolink.  And the

Page 15565

 1     Trial Chamber will make a decision once it has a medical record in its

 2     hands.

 3             026 now.  VS-026 was supposed to be heard on

 4     January 19 and 20, 2010.  For medical reasons, he was unable to come.

 5     Therefore, on February 17th, 2010, we asked for a medical examination to

 6     take place.  And once we have the feedback, we will determine what we'll

 7     do.

 8             Now, Witness 034, VS-034.  He was scheduled for

 9     February 9 and 10, 2010.  He also has health problems.  We had provided

10     for a videolink possibly, and on February 11th we asked for a medical

11     examination to be conducted.  And as soon as we have the feedback, there

12     again, we will rule on this.

13             Now, Witness VS-1058, I mentioned him earlier.  He is scheduled

14     for March 9.  Mr. Isak Gasi is scheduled for March 10.  And we have the

15     last one, VS-32.  He was supposed to be heard on February 23rd and 24th.

16     By decision, he was supposed to testify by videolink, but for medical

17     reasons he was unable to attend.  So we asked also for another medical

18     examination to be carried out.  We asked for that on January 6th, 2010.

19     And normally, if everything runs correctly, he should be heard on May 4th

20     and 5th, 2010.

21             The problem is that out of these six, we have three people who

22     are really ill, and we don't know whether, in the end, they'll be able to

23     testify.  And we need medical records in order to make a decision on all

24     this.  That's the situation as it is now.

25             When we made our scheduling order, we thought that we had

Page 15566

 1     January, February, and March to finish off these witnesses, but now we're

 2     running late, unfortunately.  But we cannot be blamed for running late.

 3             Mr. Seselj, unfortunately, you are dependent on the health

 4     situation of these witnesses, just like us.  As you know, the

 5     Trial Chamber wants to hear them as soon as possible, but there's not

 6     much we can do right now.

 7             Now, lastly, before I give you the floor, as you know, that in

 8     the decision, the date of which I forgot, we said that Mr. Krasic could

 9     come to The Hague, and we had decided that his expenses would be paid for

10     by the Registrar.  But the Registry, a few days ago, sent us a few

11     submissions, which I'm sure you received, if they were translated.  In

12     these submissions, the Registrar noted our decision but is sending the

13     ball into our camp, saying that the Registrar can only implement the

14     decision if you can really prove that you have no financial means.

15             When I read all these submissions, I was a bit flabbergasted, I

16     must say.  Why is that?  This dates back -- this is a very old problem.

17     It dates back ages ago.  The Registry's position, which is absolutely

18     normal, is that it will only pay for counsel or for associates if the

19     accused is destitute.  As far as you're concerned, you had given us

20     documents which obviously the Registrar does not find suitable.

21             I have thought about this over the weekend, and I thought the

22     following, and I want this on the transcript:  If you had asked for

23     counsel, then there would be no problem.  You would be given a counsel, a

24     co-counsel, and an entire team of assistants; and this would cost

25     hundreds of thousands of Euros.  Now, you don't want a counsel, and you

Page 15567

 1     could have been appointed a stand-by counsel.  That's also costly, but

 2     there the Registrar is ready to pay for that.  However, because you are

 3     defending yourself, you're not entitled to anything unless you can prove

 4     that you're totally destitute.

 5             Now, I don't know how things occur in the Karadzic case, but I

 6     note that Mr. Karadzic has associates, legal associates.  Apparently,

 7     they're paid.  I don't know whether Mr. Karadzic is destitute or not.

 8     But as far as he's concerned, obviously, he's not running into any

 9     problems.  He gets what he wants, and you're not getting anything.

10             Now, this is what I propose to the Trial Chamber, and if they

11     don't agree with me, I'll do it on my own.  I would suggest that we send

12     a letter to the minister in charge of co-operation with this Tribunal to

13     ask him to seise the competent ministry, as far as fiscal issues are

14     concerned, so that we can know whether your fiscal situation in Serbia is

15     such that you are poor, rich, destitute.  And once we get -- all I can

16     do, of course, is first seise this agency in charge of co-operation, but

17     it's always been very helpful.  But when we have the answer of this

18     ministry, I will have a better opinion and also the Trial Chamber will

19     have a better opinion of your wealth situation, because if you have

20     wealth in Serbia, the Tax Administration must know about this, if you

21     have property.  If you have bank accounts, also, they must know about

22     this.  If you have a car, a yacht - I don't know what you may have - they

23     must know.  And they will be able to tell us exactly what your financial

24     situation is like.  And then I will send this letter to the Registrar for

25     his information.

Page 15568

 1             However, even if you were not destitute, if we found out that you

 2     were not destitute, that you had -- that you were extremely wealthy, that

 3     your income is huge, you know, compared to wages in your country, and you

 4     are a university professor, I mean a university professor is not usually

 5     a very wealthy man, but even if you're an extremely well-paid university

 6     professor, I believe that the cost of defending yourself in a tribunal,

 7     in an international tribunal, are out of proportion for anyone.  Even for

 8     someone that has sufficient revenue to live can't face to such expenses,

 9     and therefore the Registry and the funds of the Tribunal must contribute

10     to your Defence.

11             So, to sum up, I'm very surprised to see that you are said to be

12     destitute, that you have to prove that you're destitute, and that right

13     now you cannot obtain anything; whereas Mr. Karadzic obviously is not

14     running into any problem to get financial help.  So I believe that there

15     is double standards being used here, and I wonder why.  And I'm saying

16     this in front of my fellow Judge, who is also sitting in the Karadzic

17     case, and I hope that she will support my opinion, as well as

18     Judge Harhoff.  But you have to be able to defend yourself, Mr. Seselj.

19             I must tell you that I was very surprised when you told us that

20     you would not appeal the decision for a stay because you did not have

21     your associates.  It's true that you did not make a certification of

22     appeal, and the whole trial was postponed for a while.  And I thought

23     that -- here I decided that -- I thought that this must be a problem.

24     Maybe this was a tactic on your side.  But, anyway, you told us that you

25     were not certifying for appeal because you didn't have your associates,

Page 15569

 1     and as a result, well, the trial was postponed for almost a year.  And we

 2     lost a year.

 3             So as far as your associates are concerned, I will ask my -- I

 4     will suggest to my colleagues that we officially seise the competent

 5     Serbian authority so that we know exactly what your financial situation

 6     is like.  To sum things up, this morning I was looking at the

 7     Rules of Procedure and Evidence on -- of the ICC on this question of

 8     financial aid and legal aid, and I noted that at the ICC the

 9     Trial Chamber has control over this, and the Registrar isn't free to do

10     anything he wants.  Furthermore, the Trial Chamber at the ICC can even

11     issue orders to ask the accused to actually contribute to his defence.

12     So their system is obviously more sophisticated and of a better

13     performance, but I hope that we'll find a solution so that you can

14     benefit from the help of your associates, in accordance with our

15     decision.

16             Now, finally, Mr. Seselj, as you know, we still have six

17     witnesses to hear, two who are scheduled for next week and then we'll

18     have four left, four outstanding.  If everything works according to plan,

19     we should be finished with these witnesses in May.  Then, according to

20     Article 65 ter of the procedure, Rules of Procedure, the Defence must

21     submit its 65 ter list.  So now we have a legal question, and there's no

22     decision on this.  We need to know whether the burden of proof of the

23     Prosecutor -- whether the Prosecution's case is rested or not, because we

24     have the Court witnesses that are being heard in between.

25             Normally, in Rule 85, we have evidence that is either the

Page 15570

 1     Prosecution's case or the Defence case, but it also says "unless decided

 2     otherwise by the Trial Chamber, in the interests of justice," which means

 3     that the Trial Chamber, in the interests of justice, has some leeway.  We

 4     decided to ask for these Court witnesses to come in the interests of

 5     justice.  Therefore, de jure, I believe that the Trial Chamber has not

 6     made a decision on this yet, but I believe that the Prosecution so far

 7     has no witnesses left.  They can, of course, present new evidence.  They

 8     can do that during the cross-examination of the witnesses.  But he has no

 9     more witnesses on his list.

10             So, Mr. Seselj, I would like to know whether you have already

11     prepared your witness list, because we don't want to be in a situation

12     where at the end of May -- or in May, we say, We're done with our

13     witnesses, we have Rule 98 bis, but then we don't want you to ask us for

14     two to three months to prepare your own list.  So I'd like to know

15     whether you've already -- whether you are preparing your list at the

16     moment, even if you haven't actually written your list down completely.

17             However, my fellow Judge Harhoff has something to say, I believe.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

19             Yes, I do have a few comments to what our authoritative

20     Presiding Judge has just suggested.

21             Now, first of all, in relation to the issue of the assistance to

22     Mr. Krasic to cover his travel costs to The Hague, I really and honestly

23     believe that this is a matter for the Registry to deal with, and not the

24     Chamber, so I would be disinclined to go along with the Chamber

25     addressing a letter directly to the Serbian authorities.  I would find

Page 15571

 1     that highly inappropriate.  But I did notice that at one point the

 2     Presiding Judge also mentioned -- and I don't know if that was a mistake,

 3     but you did, in fact, mention that we should address a letter to the

 4     Registrar, asking him to contact the ministry in Belgrade.  Be that as it

 5     may, I do not think that it is appropriate for the Chamber, itself, to

 6     engage in any discussion with the Serbian authorities, or any other

 7     authorities, for that matter, in relation to the indigency of an accused.

 8     So this is at least to clarify my point of view.

 9             I have no observations regarding whether or not Mr. Karadzic is

10     being treated differently, as I do not know this case, but I understand,

11     and this is my recollection from last time we discussed this issue of the

12     indigency of the accused in this case, you, Mr. Seselj, if my memory

13     serves me right, the stumbling issue is whether or not you would be

14     prepared to give information about the financial situation of your wife.

15     And I think that your position was that you had given all the information

16     about the financial situation relating to yourself, but that you refused

17     to give any information in relation to your wife, and it was for that

18     reason that the Registrar said that you had not fully co-operated with

19     the Registry about your indigency, because full information would, in the

20     Registrar's view, also involve your giving information about the

21     financial status of your wife.

22             Be that as it may, I have no further comments, except that if the

23     difficulty here is that the Registrar is of the opinion that you have

24     not -- still not fully co-operated with the Registry, then that appears

25     to be different from what is actually going on in the Karadzic case,

Page 15572

 1     because I understand, without having any concrete knowledge about it, but

 2     I understand that Mr. Karadzic has, in fact, co-operated fully with the

 3     Registrar and has given all the information that the Registrar had asked

 4     for.

 5              In relation to the issue of your giving us your list of

 6     witnesses, my opinion is, and I think this is known -- this is well known

 7     to the Presiding Judge, that I do not think that we can ask an accused to

 8     reveal his list of witnesses before the Chamber has ruled in accordance

 9     with Rule 98 bis.  That's the way I see it, because it would be, in my

10     view, unfair to an accused to ask him to reveal his list of witnesses

11     before the accused knows whether the Chamber has, in fact, accepted all

12     the charges in the indictment.  Chances are, of course, that a Chamber

13     may decide to acquit the accused on some of the charges in the

14     indictment; and if a Chamber, in fact, does so, and it has happened in

15     this Tribunal, then, of course, the defendant need not bring any evidence

16     relating to those counts.

17             So I don't think that we can and, indeed, that we should ask you

18     in advance.  Of course, if you want to do it, it's your own choice.  But

19     I do not think that the Chamber can compel you to disclose your list of

20     witnesses before we have given our oral decision on Rule 98 bis.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Not just some, but, in fact, all

23     counts.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I want to answer the remarks

25     just provided by Judge Harhoff.

Page 15573

 1             For one thing, I have not asked Mr. Seselj to provide this list.

 2     I have asked him whether he is thinking about this list and whether he's

 3     preparing it.

 4             Secondly, and more legally speaking, I could not disagree more.

 5     Article 65 ter says the following:

 6             "Following the presentation of the case of the Prosecution, and

 7     before the presentation of the case of the Defence, the Judge asked the

 8     Defence to present a list of witnesses."

 9             Now, my opinion is that the presentation of the means of the case

10     of the Prosecution is finished.  Article 65 ter (G) refers in no way to

11     Article 98 bis, at no time does it refer to Article 98 bis.  Hence,

12     legally speaking, we could actually ask for the disclosure of this list,

13     but I have no intention of forcing, through an interpretation of this

14     rule.  I just asked Mr. Seselj whether he is thinking about this list;

15     that's all.  I have not requested anything further.

16             Now, on a second point, if the Chamber wishes to send a letter to

17     the Serbian authorities, that's fine.  If the Chamber doesn't want to,

18     that's fine too.  I will do it myself, personally, of my own initiative.

19     That's what I want to do say.

20             I find that we are in a situation -- in a totally blocked

21     situation, and sending this problem back to the Registrar and leaving the

22     accused to prove that he is, in fact, in a situation of indigency, will

23     leave us stuck.  I have only one solution, and if others agree with me

24     about this solution, that's fine.  And If they won't follow me, then I

25     will have to do it alone.

Page 15574

 1             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I merely want to say that I

 2     agree with the interpretation that Judge Harhoff just suggested.  Before

 3     the presentation of the case of the Defence, we don't actually know if it

 4     will be presented or if, based on 98 bis or due to a decision of the

 5     accused, himself, whether there will be any need.  So while we don't know

 6     if the case will, in fact, be tried or not, we cannot go further.

 7             On the issue of indigency and possible assistance to the Defence

 8     and concerning how indigency can be demonstrated, I also share

 9     Judge Harhoff's opinion that this is a matter to be determined by the

10     Registry.  But I am convinced that the accused will find some way of

11     helping us out of this difficulty, of the situation in which we diverge

12     on this matter, simply by giving us the few elements that are still in

13     his possession, showing the Chamber that he is trying his best to

14     co-operate.  Perhaps, even today, he may have a few things to tell us

15     about these matters.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Mr. Seselj.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Many issues have just been raised

19     by all of you Judges.  I'm going to provide you with a somewhat broader

20     answer.

21             First, as concerns Rule 98 bis, that Rule has been in existence

22     for over 15 years, I would say, and it has undergone some changes in the

23     meantime.  Pursuant to that Rule, there was a time when a preliminary

24     judgement was issued, and now a written decision is issued by a

25     Trial Chamber, although the Rules of Evidence can be rejected, as all the

Page 15575

 1     charges has not been proven, and the criteria that are applied are the

 2     most favourable to the OTP.  And when the final judgement is passed, then

 3     the criteria are applied that are most favourable for me, when all the

 4     evidence is valid.  That's the difference between the application of Rule

 5     98 bis and the final decision.

 6             It has never happened so far that an accused has been found not

 7     guilty pursuant to Rule 98 bis.  What happened was that some charges were

 8     rejected, although I'm sure that here the OTP has not even remotely

 9     proven any of the charges.  And if there were no pressures from outside

10     of the Tribunal, I'm sure that a sentence could be passed according to

11     Rule 98 bis, and that would also contain a ruling to give me

12     compensation, together with the acquittal, for everything that I have

13     suffered through my detention.  That possibility exists in any other

14     courts.  Unfortunately, at this Tribunal, this has never happened.  All

15     the Rules are violated here, and nothing is possible here.

16             Therefore, I'm sure that there is no single piece of evidence,

17     and if there is not too much pressure from the outside, that your rule,

18     according to Rule 98 bis, will be acquittal already in May.  However, I'm

19     aware how much the Western powers don't want to see me back in Serbia.

20     They have come like a ton of bricks on my party.  They have not managed

21     to destroy it, although they have damaged it considerably.  But it is

22     still -- it is already recovering.  And my return to Serbia would

23     contribute to that recovery.  Since, in the eyes of America, I am still a

24     danger if I return to Serbia; I'm also dangerous for the European Union,

25     England, France -- France which is still meddling with the internal

Page 15576

 1     affairs of Serbia.  Look at what they're doing in Pristina.  They will do

 2     everything possible to prevent my return, even by launching physical

 3     attacks on the members of the Trial Chamber, who are trying to use their

 4     judgement in passing their decisions.  This is my realistic concern, but

 5     we will see how things will look like.

 6             However, if that decision, according to Rule 98 bis, is not for

 7     acquittal, Your Honours, do not think that I can start my case in a month

 8     or two.  The OTP needed five years to prepare for these proceedings from

 9     the moment I was arrested.  Since I personally am at least twice as

10     clever and as capable as the entire OTP, I will not need five years, but

11     I will need at least two years before I start presenting my case.

12             I have still not started working on my case, because I've not had

13     the resources, I've not had the money.  My associates are scattered.

14     They haven't been paid for seven years.  So you will have to give me at

15     least two years to be able to prepare my case, and that on the condition

16     that all the other problems are resolved.

17             Over a year ago, I promised that I would no longer mention the

18     issue of financing.  I gave up on that, because I realised that all the

19     doors were closed.  You, yourselves, Your Honours, have raised the issue,

20     and that's why I'm going to tell you a few things.

21             In 2003, I provided information about my financial situation, and

22     I gave that to the Registrar by signing a form.  Whatever I could report,

23     I did.  I reported everything.  I disclosed all my assets.  The Registrar

24     is now asking for my wife, my sister, to disclose their assets.  They did

25     that with my mother previously, and so on and so forth.  Who of you,

Page 15577

 1     Your Honours, would be willing and in a position to provide somebody with

 2     information about the assets of their spouses without their consent?  My

 3     wife does not want to give me that information.  What can I do?  Shall I

 4     beat my wife?  I'm from the Balkans, so maybe you think that it would be

 5     most appropriate and befitting.  However, I'm not that much of a man from

 6     the Balkans.  And there's also a danger, if I beat her, that she will pay

 7     me back.  I've been in prison for seven years.  My wife wasn't.  And God

 8     knows who would fare worse in such a potential skirmish.  So you're

 9     asking me for something that I can't do, I can't provide.

10             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] If this is not too much meddling

11     in your business, just tell me so and I will ask you to no more of an

12     answer than that.  But is it so that in Yugoslavia there are two systems

13     for the management of your financial estate, two possible ways in which

14     the estate is shared out between the husband and the wife?  Is it

15     possible for your estate to be separate between you and your wife and/or

16     for your estate to be one?  And have you, if there are two such

17     possibilities, have you made a choice?  I'm not asking you which choice

18     you made, but is it possible to make such a choice, and have you made

19     such a choice, in accordance with the legislation in Yugoslavia?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Madam Judge, under the Serbian law

21     there is no more Yugoslavia, because I believe you mentioned Yugoslavia.

22     It's been long gone.  So under the Serbian law, each person has his or

23     her own assets.  The only assets shared are those gained jointly,

24     something that is jointly purchased, jointly gained or earned.  If we're

25     looking at real estate, my wife has a piece of real estate which is not

Page 15578

 1     particularly valuable or expensive, whereas I, myself, have nothing,

 2     nothing at all.  I have been without a source of earnings for the last

 3     seven years.  All my assets were in my bank account back in Belgrade.  I

 4     have nothing.  It's been emptied and spent.  I have three young children,

 5     one son who is a grown-up, and that son does not have a job.  I also have

 6     two grandchildren.  Therefore, this is all perfectly clear.

 7             Secondly, the Registrar has a team of investigators.  All doors

 8     are open to them over in Belgrade.  That team has had plenty of time to

 9     establish anything they liked.  I declared my bank account in New York,

10     which goes back to 1989.  It is actually 21 years' old.  May that be

11     noted.  There was 70.000 dollars in that account.  That account was

12     blocked as of five or six years ago.  I tried to use the services of the

13     Serbian embassy to find out why that account was blocked.  As you know, I

14     was not a fugitive at any point.  They did not provide a direct answer;

15     rather, they said that I would still be able to use the money to pay for

16     the services of an American lawyer who would be representing me before

17     this Tribunal.  As you well know, it would never even cross my mind to

18     hire the services of an American lawyer.

19             So what now?  Nothing much.  Everything is as it was.  The

20     Registrar is well able to establish anything they like, yet they refuse

21     to.  I provided appropriate information.  It is up to them to actually

22     check.  They should come forward and say if any of my information is

23     accurate, but the Registrar deliberately avoids doing just that.

24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] You know very well that it is up

25     to you to prove indigency.  You can't simply say that the Registrar has

Page 15579

 1     the means at its disposal to find the information it wants.  It is

 2     actually for you to give that information.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no court in the entire

 4     world that has a registry this powerful.  Here, the Registrar makes

 5     decisions about my Defence; they make decisions as to who I would be

 6     legally represented by.  Where on earth can you find a court of law

 7     allowing something like that?

 8             I have proven already that I had no money to fund my defence, yet

 9     the Registrar is telling me that I have failed to prove it.  So what can

10     I do?  Is the Registrar always right?  No, I think sometimes the

11     Registrar has been known to tell a lie, on many an occasion during my

12     case.  There were different people filling that post, but the institution

13     remains.  I say I have nothing, and they claim that I have something.

14     Are we going to go on like that until the end of time?

15             Nevertheless, I have not worked on the Defence case so far.  What

16     I have been doing is preparing, to the best of my ability, under

17     exceptionally difficult circumstances.  I've been preparing to refute any

18     claims made by the Prosecution's false witnesses.  I'm not unhappy.  I

19     believe I have been reasonably successful.  I would have been far more

20     successful had I not been hampered in my work by the various

21     extrajudicial obstacles, had I not been hampered in terms of working with

22     my associates, and a number of other obstacles that were laid in my way.

23             If I do not get any funds for my defence from the

24     International Tribunal, that will simply leave me unable to put forward a

25     Defence case.  In order to fund my Defence case, some things must be paid

Page 15580

 1     up front, and that means the pre-trial stage as well as the trial,

 2     itself.  The Registrar must be able to establish to what extent I'm able

 3     to chip in, in terms of funding my defence, and to what extent I'm not.

 4     There are various criteria.  Let's look at the costs of defence cases in

 5     all the other trials before the International Tribunal and compare.

 6     Let's look at the chronology.  The pre-trial stage over a total of five

 7     years for my category, and this is category 3 or class 3, there was a

 8     break lasting 18 months, and the cost was 380.000, and then that goes up

 9     to 24 months, at most.  My pre-trial stage took five years.

10             Just look at my expenses.  I had to get rid of a lawyer who had

11     been imposed on me in front of the Dutch Bar, and then I had to look into

12     some information in relation to the first Serb lawyer who was imposed on

13     me as a stand-by.  Someone must foot the bill, and it simply has to be

14     the International Tribunal.  I would not have incurred all those bills

15     had all those situations not been foisted on me by illegal means and

16     methods.

17             So much for the funding.

18             Now, as regards my legal counsel, as we speak, I only have one

19     with whom I'm enjoying privileged communication, Boris Aleksic.  I'm very

20     happy with the work that he's been doing, exceptionally happy.  You've

21     seen for yourselves he writes very good submissions and he is a very

22     competent lawyer.

23             I'm also happy with my case assistant, Marina Raguz.  She's not a

24     lawyer, herself, but she has proven to be quite good at writing

25     submissions.  Nevertheless, I cannot go on without Zoran Krasic.

Page 15581

 1     Zoran Krasic has been with me throughout, from the word go, and he knows

 2     this case.  He has been on this case for the last seven years.  It is,

 3     however, impossible for me to work with him because his status here

 4     before this Tribunal is simply humiliating.

 5             You must realise one thing.  He knows about all these protected

 6     witnesses.  He knows about all the confidential information and

 7     documents.  He's seen it all.  There is nothing knew that could possibly

 8     turn up here without him having access to it.  Over the last seven years,

 9     he has simply studied it all.

10             Why the whole thing, then?  We move into closed session, and he's

11     expected to leave the courtroom, quite aside from what I actually believe

12     about the closed sessions during the Defence case and how that will

13     happen.  Unless the OTP stages some sort of a show again, all of my

14     witnesses will be testifying live, in public, viva voce.  That happens to

15     be the only kind of evidence that I recognise as legitimate.  I don't

16     recognise the evidence as defined by a continental law or, indeed, a

17     common law.

18             This is a criminal case and not a civil case.  Everything must be

19     said in open court.  We want to avoid situations of people writing stuff

20     that somebody allegedly said, yet not knowing that this is the case.

21     This is something that must not be allowed to happen in a criminal case

22     like this.

23             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you remember the

24     reasons very well.  There is no need to remind you of them here.  You

25     know what the reasons are for the Registry's decision to suspend

Page 15582

 1     Mr. Krasic's situation, and these reasons have not changed.  This Chamber

 2     can do nothing about that.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I simply cannot settle for that,

 4     the fact that the Registrar can suspend my legal counsel.  I will never

 5     settle for that, I will never come to terms with that.  It cannot be the

 6     case.

 7             Secondly, you suspended my legal counsel based on a suspicion of

 8     the OTP that he was exerting pressure on witnesses.  Why was that never

 9     proven?  It was first presented over two years ago, and it hasn't been

10     proven.  Will Zoran Krasic remain branded for the rest of his life just

11     because there was at one point a suspicion on the part of the OTP.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, there's a mistake

13     in the transcript.  Page 21, line 4, "you have suspended my legal

14     counsel."  The Chamber has suspend nobody.  We did not do that.  The

15     Registry did that.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not received the

17     interpretation of what you have just said, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was trying to say that there

19     is a mistake in the transcript.  Page 21, line 4, it says "you suspended

20     my legal counsel."  The Chamber wishes to point out that we did nothing

21     of the sort.  The Registry suspended, not the Chamber.  So when you say

22     "you," you mean this Tribunal or the Registry, but it is not the Chamber.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. President, when I

24     say "you," normally I mean the Tribunal as a whole, which I view as a

25     single institution.  You have large-scale machinery here taking on too

Page 15583

 1     many powers, and sometimes the Registrar appears to be more powerful than

 2     the Trial Chambers themselves, which is not the case anywhere else in the

 3     world.

 4             Nevertheless, what exactly is the problem we're dealing with

 5     here?  This is something that you acknowledged in your last ruling, for

 6     Zoran Krasic to remain in this half-suspended condition, as it were.  He

 7     can work with me as far as matters of public record are concerned, but

 8     not those that are confidential or outside the public eye.  So, for

 9     example, he comes and visits me in the Detention Unit.  That means that

10     all the conversations will be listened to, or they will tape him with a

11     camera, like the last time he came.  They took us to a room that was

12     bugged, and they continually recorded all of our conversations.  Why

13     would, then, he visit me if I do not enjoy the privilege of confidential

14     communication?  Or maybe there will be a representative of the Tribunal

15     sitting there listening to our conversations, and that is exactly what

16     the lawyers here did to me when I was providing them with instructions as

17     to how to represent me before the Bar here in Holland in June 2006.

18             Throughout all this time, the Detention Unit interpreter was

19     there listening to our conversation.  Well, that is one thing that I will

20     be having.

21             If Zoran Krasic visits me, then there has to be privileged

22     communication, not being eavesdropped or anything like that.  He's

23     searched every time he enters the Detention Unit, and that, I think, is

24     quite sufficient.

25             At any rate, Your Honours, in February the dead-line expired for

Page 15584

 1     you to receive a report on the real condition of Witness 008, the false

 2     Witness 008.  I have not received a report yet.  I'm not sure whether you

 3     have.  This was a chance for you to see how witnesses were

 4     instrumentalised by the OTP for the purposes of this case and how they

 5     came to be in the courtroom.

 6             I have another legal counsel.  This is Dejan Mirovic, who holds

 7     an MA degree in Law.  He's helping me in my contempt case.  He helped me

 8     the first time around, and I have now submitted another application to

 9     the Registrar for him to be taken on for my next case.  There is another

10     vacant spot on my legal team.  At the beginning, there were three of

11     them.  I would like to fill that post by hiring Mirovic another MA in

12     Law, Zoran Krasic, Boris Aleksic, and Dejan Mirovic.  That would be my

13     team, these three prominent and well-regarded lawyers.  If needed, I can

14     file a written motion to the Registrar in order to see to it that this is

15     done.  Dejan Mirovic will also be helping me and representing me in the

16     contempt case.

17             That's is as far as my legal counsel and my legal team are

18     concerned.  So far, they have not received a cent, not a penny, for their

19     work.  I have been able to cover some efforts for them, but now I find

20     myself unable to do even that.  They haven't been to see me for quite

21     some time, and, frankly, I don't know if and when they will.

22             There's another problem that I'm facing which will make it

23     impossible for me to present my Defence case unless dealt with in good

24     time.  If we think back to what Mr. Slobodan Milosevic actually had

25     during his trial, is something that I see as the bare minimum.  I will

Page 15585

 1     not go below that.  I will not settle for any less than that.

 2             When the OTP case was concluded, during the actual OTP case

 3     Milosevic enjoyed the aid of legal assistants and counsel who would

 4     normally wait for him in a special room outside the courtroom every time

 5     a session drew to a close, and then they would talk, confer, and so on

 6     and so forth.  When the Milosevic case was done, Mr. Milosevic was

 7     granted a special office in the Detention Unit in which he had access to

 8     a telephone line and a fax machine.  He was allowed to use the phone as

 9     much as he liked, and he was allowed to make all the calls he liked.

10             Whoever is preparing for a Defence case must keep numerous

11     communication lines open to a great many people.  90 per cent of the

12     calls normally come to nothing, but then there is that 1 per cent which

13     normally comes back with a result.  Nevertheless, there must be access to

14     these services, and Mr. Milosevic enjoyed that access.

15             The Detention Unit authorities now refuse to issue their

16     permission for something like that to be arranged for me.  They have now

17     awarded an office for Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Karadzic, and me to be used

18     jointly.  There is a telephone line in that room, but we were officially

19     told that we could use this telephone, in terms of privileged

20     communication, only by using the same number -- dialing the same number

21     that we normally dial from the corridor of the Detention Unit.  And that

22     number is normally related to a particular legal counsel we are hiring.

23     Anything else we do, we must buy a card, pay for the conversation

24     ourselves, and these conversations are normally eavesdropped on.  Now,

25     this is something that I simply find myself unable to accept.

Page 15586

 1             Secondly, we have at different stages in these proceedings.  The

 2     Tolimir trial has just started; the Karadzic trial has just started; and

 3     I am expected to commence my Defence case.  What do I need this office

 4     for?  I need this office to see potential witnesses there.  I may have,

 5     let's say, 60 or 70 witnesses appearing.  I will need to see at least 500

 6     or 600 of those before I pick the witnesses who would eventually -- who

 7     would eventually appear.  That is precisely what Mr. Milosevic did.  He

 8     didn't bring all of the 2.000 witnesses here to see them, but he did have

 9     a list containing as many as 2.000 names.  Every time he picked a

10     witness, he would be given an opportunity to talk to them three or four

11     times before the witness ever entered the courtroom.

12             For example, take my case.  He spoke to me a total of four times,

13     because I appeared as one of his Defence witnesses.  And he was using,

14     for that purpose, this office.  And the meetings were attended also by

15     Dr.  Branko Rakic, his legal counsel, Mr. Milosevic, himself, and me.

16     And there was no supervision going on whatsoever.  Knowing that

17     Mr. Milosevic enjoyed this privilege, well, then certainly I must as well

18     until the moment I die.  This is the only way it can happen; no other way

19     but this way.  That is as far as the conditions for preparing my Defence

20     case are concerned.

21             Problem number 4, which is exceptionally important, this is

22     something that I've drawn your attention to previously.  At one point

23     during the pre-trial stage, I filed a number of motions to the

24     Trial Chamber, more than once, at any rate, as far as I remember, about

25     the following:  I suggested that a number of different intelligence

Page 15587

 1     services, American, British, German, French, Croatian, and the Muslim

 2     Intelligence Service in Bosnia, be subpoenaed in order to force them to

 3     submit all of their intelligence reports, all of their information, all

 4     of their Official Notes containing a mention or a reference to my name.

 5     The Trial Chamber came back to me, saying that I had to get the work done

 6     myself, that I should try to get hold of these documents, and then should

 7     I fail, they would be ruling on that.

 8             My legal counsel followed this course of action.  It was

 9     Mr. Aleksandar Vucic who at the time was in charge of dealing with that.

10     He dispatched requests to the US Intelligence Service, the French

11     Intelligence Service, the Dutch -- the Italian Intelligence Service, and

12     the German Intelligence Service.  No response came from anyone but the

13     US Intelligence Service, and they wanted the costs covered.  I forwarded

14     their response to the Tribunal.

15             I am unable to use my legal assistants to address the Croat

16     authorities or, indeed, the Muslim authorities.  Therefore, this should

17     be done directly by the Tribunal.  This information is essential to me.

18     It is material to my Defence case.  Unless I get hold of this information

19     in good time, I really have no idea how I should be presenting my Defence

20     case, as a whole.

21             In the OTP's case, they got everything they wanted from anyone

22     they wanted.  They carefully picked what documents exactly would be made

23     available to me from the archives and from all over the place.  But then,

24     mutatis mutandis, I must get access to everything wherever my name is

25     mentioned, so then I can pick, myself, whether I will be using a document

Page 15588

 1     in the courtroom or not.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, on this latter

 3     point that I no longer had in mind, I followed closely what was said in

 4     the Karadzic case, where he also asked the states to communicate a number

 5     of elements, and I remember what the German ambassador said.  He said as

 6     far as secret services are concerned, this comes under state secret, and

 7     it's impossible to disclose anything.

 8             Now, regarding the other countries which participated, they're

 9     willing to answer as long as they are given a very clear explanation

10     about the purpose of the request.  They don't want to contribute to

11     fishing for information and nothing else.  So I believe that your -- you

12     probably will not have a positive answer.

13             I didn't know that your associate had written to everyone, that

14     you only got an answer from the Americans, who were asking you to pay for

15     these documents.  I guess that's what they were asking you to do.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Americans were willing, at

17     least on the face of it, to meet my request.  However, they had a price

18     list for that.  They were prepared to provide documents at a price, and

19     they explained the costs -- the costs of the staff, photocopying, and so

20     on and so forth.  However, it seems that all states but Serbia are

21     entitle to have their state secrets.  Only from Serbia, Karadzic

22     documents were provided to the Tribunal.  Even if some documents were

23     missing, they were produced there and then in order to meet the requests

24     of the OTP.  There was such cases.  In the proceedings against the six

25     who were tried for alleged crimes on Kosovo, I know for a fact that

Page 15589

 1     certain documents were produced subsequently in order to meet the

 2     requirements of the OTP; documents which were not authentic.  Those

 3     documents were forged subsequently in order to prove some things.

 4             Serbia has provided everything, nobody else does, because there's

 5     always an axe hanging over Serbia.  The other countries do not treat this

 6     Tribunal as a serious court of law.  Americans, for example, their state

 7     interest has always been above the Tribunal.  If this, indeed, is an

 8     international tribunal, then the interests of this Tribunal has to be

 9     above any individual state interest, especially in view of the fact that

10     it is very difficult to prove here that a state is interested in hiding

11     documents.  The real interests of Western powers, such as America, Italy,

12     France, is to cover documents that refer to me.  And all that is done

13     only to make my defence more difficult.

14             I am sure that all the documents that mention my name and that

15     are kept in their archives would be exculpatory for me.  Their

16     intelligence services were involved in all war events.  They have precise

17     information.  And that information is contradictory to the statements

18     issued by their politicians.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, let me remind you

20     of the law.  Our Rule 54 bis solves this problem.  A party, i.e., you,

21     asking for a -- i.e., a party requesting an order on Rule 54 that say

22     produce document and so forth, will identify the documents, if possible,

23     to indicate how they are relevant to any matter in the issue before the

24     Judge.  3 explains the steps that have been made by the applicant to

25     secure the state's assistance.  This is Rule 54 bis(A)(i) to (iii).

Page 15590

 1             "The Judge of the Trial Chamber will reject an application if it

 2     is satisfied that the documents are not relevant, that no reasonable

 3     steps have been made by the applicants to obtain the documents or the

 4     information from the state."

 5             This is Rule 54 bis(B)(1)(ii), and the decision of the

 6     Trial Chamber can be appealed.  So the procedure is extremely clear.

 7             If you want, for example, the German Secret Services to

 8     communicate documents to you, well, first you have to ask for them.  And

 9     if you get no answer, then you can make a written submission, explaining

10     what the relevance of these documents is, and, secondly, what steps have

11     you taken so far, and, three, what is the exact nature of the document.

12     The procedure is stated in Rule 54 bis.  You have to follow it.  And I

13     believe that this is exactly what Mr. Karadzic did.  He followed the

14     procedure, Rule 54 bis.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is exactly what I've done.

16             As for the nature of these documents, I would say that they deal

17     with my activities during the war.  My name is mentioned in all of them,

18     and that should be a good enough reason for me to request those documents

19     covering a period from 1991 to 19 --

20             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I believe that at

21     one point in time in your country you were vice-prime minister, and you

22     dealt with your own secret services.  So you know exactly how they work,

23     how they operate.  They're secret by nature.  So they don't disclose

24     much.  If you're waiting for miracles, well, you know it's a hard road to

25     follow, but you can always try.  You might eventually obtain something.

Page 15591

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I was the

 2     vice-president of my government, whatever I requested from Serbian and

 3     Yugoslav intelligence services, I got all that, by and large.  Many of

 4     those documents later on, when I was no longer the vice-president of the

 5     government, I disclosed all of them.  Once, they wanted to put me on

 6     trial for disclosing an official secret, but they soon changed their

 7     mind.  I even managed to get hold of my entire police record.  There were

 8     no big secrets for me there.

 9             And here you could also see that I had much better documents at

10     my disposal than the OTP, and I'm always able to lift the mask of the

11     false documents that the OTP is trying to pass on me.  There we've seen

12     documents that were not signed, they didn't have a stamp on them, they

13     were not recorded, and so on and so forth.

14             As far as the foreign services are concerned, I'm powerless here.

15     I don't have the money to pay the Americans.  And the rest are keeping

16     quiet.  And as for Croatia, I can't even talk to them.  I don't have

17     anybody to be my mediator.  I personally don't want to do that; My legal

18     advisers don't want to do that.  Aleksandar Vucic didn't want to do it

19     originally, but then I learned later on that he travelled to Zagreb on

20     several occasions.  And when I learned that, I had already dismissed him.

21     I really don't know why he travelled to Zagreb, who he meant there, and

22     what connections he had there, and what things he was involved in there.

23             In any case, my assistance team has always been under scrutiny,

24     and you realised what that scrutiny resulted in.  The team has been

25     changed.  I'm not complaining.  I have expected all those blows, and I've

Page 15592

 1     managed to put through all those blows, not only in biological terms but

 2     also in political terms.  In political terms, for America and its allies,

 3     I am currently more dangerous than I ever was seven years ago.  And they

 4     are still not happy about my possible return to Belgrade.  So we will

 5     still have an opportunity to engage in this tug-of-war for seven or eight

 6     years, at least until all this is over.

 7             But I'm not complaining, I'm not complaining.  I'm just telling

 8     you that I will not give up an inch of my rights and principles that I

 9     adhere to.  And I'm telling you, though, these proceedings cannot be

10     finished that easily and at my expense.  I appreciate that it will

11     eventually be at my expense, but in the meantime I will be able to deal a

12     lot of counter-blows to my enemies and my opponents.

13             As my -- a friend of mine used to say, I'm not a squirrel; I

14     can't be treated like this by just anybody.  I -- you should, rather,

15     compare me with a dragon.  That would be a much better comparison.

16             And I have a minor issue, or minor on the face of it.  It's a

17     very concrete issue, and I believe it's important enough for me to inform

18     you about it.  There is an agency called SENSE.  SENSE Tribunal is its

19     full name.  Its sponsors are The Hague Tribunal also the

20     European Commission, the governments of the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and

21     Germany, and the Source Open Society Foundation.  That agency falsifies

22     information from the proceedings that are conducted before this Tribunal.

23     And last time, the week before last, when we heard the protected witness,

24     Ms. Biersay mentioned or quoted my statement that I issued at a press

25     conference in 1992, and that was when I requested for Ostoja Sibincic and

Page 15593

 1     others to be released after having been arrested in Hrtkovci.  The SENSE

 2     Agency, or the SENSE, whatever its name is, published as follows:

 3             "Ms. Biersay quoted Seselj's statement at a press conference held

 4     in 1993, at which he requested for the detained activeness of the

 5     Serbian Radical Party to be released, including Sibincic."

 6             This means that somebody suggested that that agency should

 7     infiltrate a piece of false information, and that was that I treated

 8     Sibincic as a member of the Serbian Radical Party, although at that

 9     conference, I said - and I published that in my book "Bila Bandic Has to

10     Fall" - the Serbian Radical Party, that is the third issue that I

11     would -- we would like to communication our position.  The Serbian

12     Radical Party requests the release of Sobija Ilicic [phoen] and others

13     who were arrested in Sovislavici [phoen], former Hrtkovci, because we

14     believe that they have been arrested because of their political campaign

15     or, rather, a political campaign conducted by some circles of the federal

16     authorities, primarily Tibor Varadi, a minister and official of the

17     Pro Ustasha Party of the Yugoslav Association for Democratic Initiative.

18             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

19             Mr. MARCUSSEN:  I believe the accused is raising an issue of

20     evidence rather than an administrative issue at this point.

21             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this is evidence,

22     Mr. Seselj, this is evidence.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, this is an administrative

24     issue, not an issue of evidence.  I would like to -- I'm trying to show

25     you how a propaganda war is waged against me by the SENSE Agency,

Page 15594

 1     supported by the Tribunal.

 2             And then I go -- I went on to say if somebody committed a crime,

 3     it is up to a court to establish that, and I will --

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm sure that you

 5     know the media better than I do.  You can send them some mail, you know,

 6     a letter, to ask them to amend their press release, and they'll make the

 7     amendment.  They might have made a mistake.  I don't know.  I didn't

 8     follow this.  You can always write to them so that they can make a

 9     correction.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was convinced that

11     you, as members of the Trial Chamber, will be very interested in learning

12     about this problem.  I sent a submission to the Registry, and that

13     submission was prepared by Boris Aleksic.  But I would like to also

14     inform you about the forgeries that I'm dealing with.  I have been

15     dealing with such forgeries all the time.  And could you please allow me

16     to read two more sentences and quote what I said at the conference, and

17     how the two sentences have been misinterpreted by the SENSE.

18             I said if somebody committed a crime, it has to be confirmed by a

19     court.  They were arrested after a political campaign, without a piece of

20     evidence that a crime was, indeed, committed.  We demand that they be

21     released and that they be allowed to mount a defence at large.  If

22     anybody has to be arrested, it should be those who committed the most

23     atrocious -- such a crime, and exchange them with the Croats.  And then I

24     went on to talk about how those criminals were released, and that was in

25     1992, and it's clear what I wanted to say.

Page 15595

 1             At the same time, the SENSE Agency published that on that

 2     occasion I protected members of the Serbian Radical Party, although on

 3     several occasions we established here in this place that they were not

 4     members of the Serbian Radical Party.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 6             Mr. MARCUSSEN:  The accused is clearly continuing to present

 7     evidence.  He's making a submission about evidence that was presented to

 8     you in court.  He's making an argument as to why some evidence that has

 9     been presented is wrong based on some documents he's reading from.  If

10     the accused intends to turn this into an evidentiary hearing, then we

11     should have this piece of evidence that he's reading from admitted into

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, regarding this

14     agency, this is not the first time that there are some technical

15     problems, and I say, quote/unquote, "technical problems" with this

16     agency.  You're not the first accused contesting what this agency is

17     saying.  But they can answer any request made by you, and if they made a

18     mistake, because they can make mistakes, well, they will correct their

19     mistake.  Jumping to conclusions by saying that they're forging the truth

20     or giving false true, that's going a bit too far.

21             Let me tell you that we have been in contact for years now, and

22     it's the first time that you are addressing this problem of this

23     SENSE Agency.  It's up to you to solve the problem.  We're not here to

24     deny freedom of speech to anyone.  We're not here to tell anyone, You are

25     not reflecting correctly what is being said during the hearings.  It is

Page 15596

 1     not our job; it is not what we're here for.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in my view, your job

 3     is anything to do with this trial and my position in it.  You are the

 4     guardians of the just nature of this trial.

 5             As I told you, I submitted this to the Registry, and the

 6     Registry's in charge of working with this agency, in charge of funding

 7     the work of the agency.  I officially submitted this to the Registrar.

 8     I'm merely now informing you that I, in fact, did that and why; which

 9     concludes the matter for me.  That is all I had to say in that respect.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  You're telling us

11     that you made a submission to the Registrar, and you will -- it's up to

12     the Registry to decide.

13             Mr. Marcussen, before we wind up, do you have anything to say.

14             Mr. MARCUSSEN:  Yes, Your Honours, I do have a few points.

15             First of all, and this goes to the issue of what stage the

16     proceedings is in, the issue came up about whether or not the

17     Prosecution's case is closed.  As I indicated last time we were in court

18     and this issue came up, it's the Prosecution's position that the

19     Prosecution's part of the presentation of evidence is not yet over.

20             In addition to issues that might come up during the

21     witnesses - and I understand that the President has already deal with

22     this, and I accept, of course, the position that there can be Prosecution

23     exhibits tendered during that -- during the testimony of the remaining

24     witnesses - I also wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to the fact that the

25     Prosecution intend to file another motion for admission of documents from

Page 15597

 1     the Bar table.  We will make a short request for leave to exceed the word

 2     limits, on the basis of -- for the same reasons that we sought it for the

 3     first Bar table motion.  We will get that filed very quickly.  We just

 4     need to finalise some technical issues, and then we can file that.

 5             On the 23rd of April, 2002, Mr. Mundis -- no, that cannot be

 6     right.  2008, my apologies.  Mr. Mundis indicated that the Prosecution

 7     was working on preparing a list of additional videos to be shown.  We

 8     would like to show a few more videos to the Court.  We have considerably

 9     cut down the list, so I think we could do a short video session, but we

10     would like to present some further videos.  And as the Court has decided

11     that the propose procedure is that the videos be shown in court, we would

12     need some time to do that.

13             So those were the first two things in relation to the close of

14     the Prosecution case.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, a spur of the

16     moment.  I am just finding out about these videos.  You know that we

17     still have six witnesses, and you could always show these six -- these

18     witnesses [as interpreted] during the hearing of these six witnesses in

19     the framework of the time allotted to you; for VS-1058, for example,

20     through VS-1058, because having a special video session would mean that

21     you would be allotted additional time, and personally I would be against

22     that.  I can tell thank you immediately.

23             So if you have a few videos to show, since we're going to have

24     witnesses, use these witnesses to show your videos, you know, during your

25     cross.  Say, Mr. Seselj said this earlier, I will show you a video, and

Page 15598

 1     then we'll see the video.  That way, you can obtain what you want.

 2             Mr. MARCUSSEN:  I'm not certain that the remaining witnesses can

 3     speak to the particular witness -- to the particular videos that we have

 4     left, so I'm not sure that's feasible.

 5             And on the issue of time, I believe that the Prosecution had five

 6     hours and something left of its time before the remaining witnesses were

 7     converted into Court witnesses, so I would think that we have some time.

 8             In any event, all we need is maybe an hour or two hours.  It's --

 9     we are not talking about a massive amount of videos to present.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I'm not

11     convinced that you still have five hours.  Our Legal Officers have

12     checked this closely, and I don't think that you have five hours left.

13     We'll take a close look at this to see exactly how much time you have

14     left.

15             Mr. MARCUSSEN:  Now, as for the issue of the accused's ability to

16     present his defence, the way I have heard the accused speak today, he has

17     essentially said he does not have the resources and, therefore, is not

18     capable of preparing his defence.  That, again, raises the issue of

19     whether or not it is required for the Trial Chamber to impose counsel,

20     and it's a difficult situation for the Trial Chamber, I realise.  And I

21     also note that although I'm not to make any submissions on whether or not

22     the Serbian authorities should or should not be requested to provide

23     information, the Prosecution would request that the Trial Chamber, if it

24     is to make such a request to Serbia, clarifies to the Prosecution and to

25     the accused whether or not the request has been made, because the

Page 15599

 1     Trial Chamber has found that the accused is not able to ensure his

 2     defence without some legal assistance of some sort.  So that's what I

 3     wanted to say on this point.

 4             I would also note that the accused made a lot of arguments about

 5     how he had prevented from doing this or how he didn't have resources.

 6     I think it's important to put on record as well, though, that the accused

 7     has actually presented, with various of his motions, quite a lot of

 8     witness statements he as obtained actually even before the commencement

 9     of the trial.  And as we have frequently debated, when various witnesses

10     have been cross-examined, he has obviously had the resources to have

11     somebody collect various pieces of evidence for him and have them faxed

12     to him in court.  And I put this on record because I think that it's

13     important that the public is informed about what's going on here.  And

14     when the accused is presenting himself as some sort of a victim of the

15     system here, I think it is inappropriate.  The Trial Chamber has done

16     what it could and been very, very lax in allowing the accused to present

17     his evidence during the trial, has allowed him not to provide documents

18     in translated form, has allowed him to come with the documents late.  So

19     I think important that the record is somehow made as to what the

20     accused's ability is to present his case.

21             So, Your Honours, I think it's important, as we move forward,

22     that we clarify the accused's position on this counsel issue.

23             And I would note that once the Defence case starts, it will be

24     important, of course, for the fairness of the trial and for the

25     Prosecution's ability to cross-examine remaining witnesses, that we do

Page 15600

 1     get things translated, that we do get them on time.  So if the accused is

 2     not able to respect reasonable dead-lines for those kind of things once

 3     the Defence case starts, the whole issue of his ability to present his

 4     defence comes up again.  And the issue of whether or not he can do so

 5     without some sort of legal assistance, unfortunately, will arise again,

 6     but this time in a new form.  But it cannot end up being the case that

 7     the Prosecution's ability to prepare for cross-examination of witnesses

 8     get prejudiced because the accused refuses to provide information to the

 9     Registrar which enables the Registrar to give him counsel, if that's what

10     actually is needed.

11             Thank you, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we only have five

13     minutes to go before the tape finishes, quite, but we must finish now.

14     We have five minutes, Mr. Seselj, and then we will wind up.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just respond to

16     Mr. Marcussen.

17             As for the admission of documents into evidence, what

18     Mr. Marcussen has announced is impossible.  Any documents had to be

19     tendered while the witnesses were around, while he was examining his

20     witnesses, now the Chamber's witnesses, and potential Defence witnesses.

21     The only thing that can be admitted directly into evidence with no

22     witnesses are photocopies of portions of my books or the pieces that I

23     wrote.  This is the only thing that can be Bar-tabled, as it were.

24             The other thing.  Mr. Marcussen has just stated something that is

25     utter nonsense.  If I have no funding to present my Defence case, then

Page 15601

 1     obviously this brings up the issue of my lawyer.  What exactly will this

 2     lawyer be doing, presenting a Defence case against my will?  I don't see

 3     any brains here.  Do you have any, sir?  How on earth could a lawyer like

 4     that be allowed to do that?

 5             Milosevic was tricked some time ago.  He submitted a witness

 6     list, and then a lawyer was imposed on him to pick witnesses from that

 7     list.  That didn't work.

 8             Me, I will not be forwarding to you a Defence witness list, or,

 9     indeed, any of my evidence until I have received sufficient funds to

10     appropriately present Defence case.  A budget must be determined for my

11     Defence case in relation to the pre-trial stage, in relation to the OTP

12     case, and in relation to the Defence case; the breakdown being like that.

13     A budget is determined based on the complexity level of the case, and

14     then we can say, I can fund this or that portion from such and such

15     sources, but the rest of the bill should be footed by the

16     International Tribunal, that being the only legitimate method of going

17     about this.  No one so far here has even tried to determine a budget for

18     my defence or, indeed, to ascertain what, if any, of these expenses I can

19     cover myself and from what sources.  And yet you would like to assign a

20     lawyer to me.  Are you in your right state of mind, people?  How exactly

21     are you going to do that?  If you're bringing a fool into this courtroom,

22     and this fool will be travelling around Serbia, tracking down witnesses.

23     Well, this fool appointed by you would never be allowed to enter Serbia,

24     let alone pick my witnesses.  Maybe someone from this OTP of yours, some

25     of their staff, maybe they should go, have a walk around, and then tell

Page 15602

 1     other people there that I'm probably the most heinous person alive.

 2             Am I the worst person you've ever met?  I'm sure you've never met

 3     anyone like me throughout your careers, not you, not the Trial Chamber.

 4     I don't think you've ever met anyone like this before.

 5             You are bound to get a lot more headaches because I'm here.  I

 6     will not give up any of my claims, and I'm ready to stake my life to

 7     stand up for my rights and principles.  You are powerless when you face

 8     me, and my power is enormous.  My greatest resources are right here

 9     between my ears, and I'm sure, Mr. Marcussen, that you've had ample

10     opportunity to see for yourself.  You can't overcome that.  There's no

11     one available to do the work for you.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, we're about to

13     close.  And, anyhow, we're running ahead of things, because we still have

14     to deal with 98 bis.  And if there's one thing that I'm sure I

15     understand, is that you are asking for two years to prepare yourself.

16     This much, I understand.  Until now, that was not clear to me.

17             Secondly, you are asking for financial means in order to fund the

18     presentation of your witnesses.  Now, this is another element that the

19     Chamber will keep in mind when they make decisions.

20             We will meet again next week.  I can't remember if it will be

21     morning hearings or afternoon hearings, but, anyhow, you will be told.

22             We have VS-1058 and Gasi, one and a half hours for the Chamber,

23     one and a half hours for the OTP, one and a half hours for Mr. Seselj,

24     followed the next morning by Mr. Gasic [as interpreted], who has 30

25     minutes.  In theory, only issues related to his testimony will be raised,

Page 15603

 1     and no administrative issues, because that would be a waste of time.

 2     That's what I want to tell you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Judge Harhoff, who

 5     has a very vast experience in these matters, is pointing out to us that

 6     when we start on the presentation of the Defence case, a new financial

 7     regime comes into place.  What you might want to do is discuss this with

 8     the Registry people who visit at the Detention Unit.  Mr. Petrov is about

 9     to change his position.  Somebody's going to replace him, Ms. Campbell,

10     and you should take it up with her.  See if you can solve this problem.

11     She is the person you can talk to in the coming weeks, in the coming

12     days, because we are now moving into a different phase with a different

13     financial regime.

14             You have to bring your witnesses; you have to see your witnesses.

15     We have to pay the planes, and the hotels, and the meals for your

16     witnesses.  This is obvious, without question.

17             Now, we will stop here, because we are running ahead of

18     ourselves.  I think it was a good idea to mention your list of witnesses,

19     because we were able to sketch out what problems you were going to be

20     faced with in the time to come.

21             We will meet again next week.  It will be afternoon hearings,

22     Judge Harhoff just told us, and we will meet, therefore, at 2.15.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.55 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day

25                           of March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.