Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16095

 1                           Monday, 14 June 2010

 2                           [Administrative Hearing]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 3.07 p.m.

 5                           [The accused entered court]

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you please

 7     call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-03-67-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Vojislav Seselj.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Registrar.

12             This is Monday, June 14th, 2010, and I welcome our

13     representatives of the OTP and their staff, Mr. Seselj, and everyone

14     helping us.

15             This is an administrative hearing, so before delving into the

16     subject, I will read a few oral decisions.  I will read them slowly.

17     Some are short, but some are a bit longer, and the two last ones will be

18     issued in closed session because they are dealing with protected

19     witnesses.

20             Now, let's start with the public decisions.

21             Let me follow the translation in B/C/S in order to make sure that

22     the B/C/S booth is following.

23             Oral decision regarding VS-026 and VS-032.

24             Noting the Prosecution's public motion filed on June 1st, asking

25     for additional time to tender previous statements and associated

Page 16096

 1     evidentiary documents dealing with Witnesses VS-026 and VS-032, noting

 2     the public oral decision issued on May 11, 2010, setting the dead-line

 3     for the filing of all motions to be taken into consideration by the

 4     Trial Chamber in its 98 bis ruling at June 1st, 2010, considering that

 5     the Trial Chamber is not yet able to determine whether it will be able to

 6     hear the testimonies of Witnesses VS-026 and VS-032, on these grounds

 7     grants leave to the Prosecution to file a request to tender evidence for

 8     Witnesses VS-026 and VS-032, after their testimony in this case, should

 9     the Trial Chamber decide that they are able to testify or within three

10     days after the Trial Chamber's decision, should the Trial Chamber decide

11     that they are not to testify.

12             So in a nutshell, if these two persons come and testify, the

13     Prosecution will tender the evidentiary documents, and if the

14     Trial Chamber decides that they will not testify, the Prosecution will

15     have three days to send us their requests.

16             Second oral decision on the accused's books.

17             Noting the public version of the consolidated decision on the

18     assignment of counsel, adjournment, and Prosecution motion for additional

19     time issued on November 24, 2009, in which the Trial Chamber orders the

20     accused to disclose a paper copy and an electronic copy, if possible, of

21     all future publications in his name that contain, in whole or in part,

22     references to the present case, so that the Chamber may transmit them to

23     the Registry, where they will then be examined to determine whether the

24     publication in question contains confidential information that would

25     identify a protected Prosecution witness in this case; noting the public

Page 16097

 1     comments made by the Registry on this consolidated decision filed on

 2     January 20th, 2010, in which the Registry notes that it does not have the

 3     resources or the knowledge necessary to meet this task, and that it is up

 4     to the accused to make sure that no information confidential is contained

 5     in his publications; noting the public oral decision issued on May 11,

 6     2010, in which the Trial Chamber repeated for the second time the

 7     instructions given to the Registry in the consolidated decision; noting

 8     the new public comments filed by the Registry on May 18, 2010, allows

 9     proprio motu the accused to public his books at his own risk without the

10     accused having to provide them in advance to the Trial Chamber and to the

11     Registry for control; however, recalls that disclosing any confidential

12     running counter to an order for protective measures issued by a

13     Trial Chamber can be sanctioned by a conviction for contempt of court,

14     according to Rule 77.

15             This, in a nutshell, Mr. Seselj, through this oral decision, can

16     publish any book he wants without having to provide a copy of this book

17     or of the project of the book before to us.  However, he must make sure

18     that he abides by Rule 77 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, i.e.,

19     protection of confidential information.

20             Third decision, public decision, on the documents attached to the

21     previous statements of Witnesses Stefanovic, Petkovic, Rankic, VS-034,

22     and VS-037.

23             Noting the public motion filed on the 1st of June, 2010, by the

24     Prosecution, aiming at admitting, on the basis of Rule 89(C) of the Rules

25     of Procedure and Evidence, some documents that were used during the

Page 16098

 1     previous written statements of Witnesses Aleksandar Stefanovic,

 2     Ljubisa Petkovic, Zoran Rankic, VS-034 and VS-037, submitting that since

 3     these documents were commented upon by previous witnesses during the

 4     previous statements, these are a set of documents and cannot be

 5     disassociated or separated from the statements in question; noting the

 6     public decision issued on the 6th of November, 2008, in which the

 7     Trial Chamber admitted several previous statements of Ljubisa Petkovic

 8     pursuant to Rule [indiscernible] quater of the Rules of Procedure and

 9     Evidence; noting the public decision issued on the 12th of March, 2009,

10     in which the Trial Chamber admitted several previous written statements

11     of Aleksandar Stefanovic pursuant to Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure

12     and Evidence; noting the confidential decision issued on the 11th of May,

13     2010, in which the Trial Chamber admitted several previous written

14     statements of Witness VS-034 pursuant to Rule 89(C) of the Rules of

15     Procedure and Evidence; considering that the Trial Chamber has not ruled

16     yet on the application to admit previous statements of Witnesses

17     Zoran Rankic and VS-037; considering that the Trial Chamber has, however,

18     already admitted previous written statements of Witnesses

19     Ljubisa Petkovic, Aleksandar Stefanovic, and VS-034; considering that as

20     far as witnesses on whom the Trial Chamber has already ruled is

21     concerned, the Prosecution requests the admission of five documents used

22     during the written statements of Aleksandar Stefanovic, 17 documents used

23     for Ljubisa Petkovic, and two documents used for VS-034; considering that

24     the Trial Chamber holds that the documents that have been commented upon

25     by the witnesses in their previous written statements form an integral

Page 16099

 1     part of these statements and form a set that cannot be disassociated or

 2     separated from these statements; for the foregoing reasons orders the

 3     following documents to be tendered into evidence:  The five documents

 4     that were used at the time of the written statements of

 5     Aleksandar Stefanovic and quoted by the Prosecution in paragraph 12,

 6     footnote 15 of its motion; the 17 documents used for Ljubisa Petkovic and

 7     quoted by the Prosecution in paragraph 15, footnote page 18 of its

 8     motion; the two documents used for VS-034 and quoted by the Prosecution

 9     in paragraph 21, footnote page 20 of its motion, orders the Registrar to

10     give each document an exhibit number and to put them on e-court as

11     annexes to the previous statements of which they form an integral part,

12     stays its decision on the request pertaining to Witnesses Zoran Rankic

13     and VS-037 until such a time that the Trial Chamber rules on the

14     admission of the previous statements.

15             I have two oral decisions that I need to hand down in closed

16     session.  These decisions are not very long.

17             Registrar, can we move into closed session for a few moments,

18     please.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's an extremely important

20     topic we need to address today which relates to the search, and

21     consequences thereof, which had been conducted at Mrs. Mladic's home,

22     wife of General Mladic.

23             According to the information which has been forwarded to the

24     Trial Chamber, in the month of February of this year the investigating

25     services of the Republic of Serbia found, at the home of Mrs. Mladic, a

Page 16105

 1     number of documents, amongst which personal notes of General Mladic were

 2     found which could be of interest to a number of cases before this

 3     Tribunal.  The Prosecutor held that it was important to discuss this

 4     matter.  A press release was, therefore, provided on the subject of these

 5     documents.  The OTP sent these documents to the translation services of

 6     the Tribunal.  This should amount to approximately 3.500 pages.  And

 7     there are seemingly a set of videos and medical documents or reports

 8     which have also been discovered at Mrs. Mladic's home.

 9             The Prosecution indicated to the entire world, via a press

10     release, that these documents have been sent to the accused, in the

11     plural.  Since they had been drafted in B/C/S, I would like to mention

12     the fact that the Trial Chamber, this Trial Chamber, has had no such

13     document at its disposal.  We did not have a CD-ROM containing these

14     documents.

15             As far as the case of this accused in question is concerned, we

16     have not received anything, and we do not understand the language.  And

17     like everyone else, I'm waiting for the translation of these documents.

18             As things stand today, as far as I'm concerned, once we have the

19     translation of these documents, I believe a number of elements will have

20     to be checked out; i.e., how and under what conditions were these

21     documents found, what is Mrs. Mladic's position on this question, those

22     documents that have been written by General Mladic, himself, and so on

23     and so forth.  So this is an extremely complex issue.  In addition, to

24     what extent will these documents be, in light of our indictment?  Will

25     these documents be relevant, in light of our indictment?

Page 16106

 1             In addition, the Prosecutor has told us that it would only be

 2     able to give us its point of view on the 16th of July of this year as

 3     regards the accused Seselj.  From the 16th of July onwards, Mr. Seselj

 4     will have time to respond to this, of course.  And as you know, the Rules

 5     of Procedure and Evidence indicates that there is a 15-day dead-line

 6     which runs from then on, but there can be an extension of this dead-line.

 7             All this does have an impact on our schedule, and we will

 8     therefore not be able to issue a decision on the question of Mladic's

 9     notes before the beginning of September, perhaps even in the best case at

10     the end of August, because we shall have to look at all these documents

11     and this is a time-consuming process.  This, of course, will also have an

12     impact on the 90 bis proceedings.

13             In addition, as far as our schedule is concerned, we still have

14     two witnesses on standby.  We are waiting for the confirmation of the

15     appearance of these witnesses.  That said, for the time being one of the

16     witnesses has indicated formally that he was able to come, and the second

17     witness has indicated that he rather have a video conference.  We are

18     still waiting for a medical expert to provide us with his update on the

19     medical condition of these two witnesses.

20             Personally, I wish to take no risks whatsoever as far as the

21     health of these people is concerned.  I don't wish these people to be

22     exposed to any disastrous situations which would make their testimony

23     very difficult.  We would, therefore, like the expert to indicate to us

24     whether these two people are able to testify or not.

25             For the time being, therefore, we cannot say exactly when these

Page 16107

 1     people will come and testify.  As a precautionary measure, the

 2     Trial Chamber has asked the Registrar to keep a few days at the beginning

 3     of July or set these days aside at the beginning of July for the first

 4     witness on the 6th and 7th of July, and the second could testify on the

 5     12th and 13th of July, if all goes well.  For the time being, we are

 6     unable to specify this.

 7             Whatever the case may be, in light of Mladic's notes, we have

 8     every reason to believe that the Trial Chamber will only rule on this

 9     matter at the end of August or the beginning of September.

10             But perhaps Mr. Marcussen has some new information to give us,

11     amongst other things, how the translation is getting on, because I

12     believe that there are some 3.500 pages that need translating.

13             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I am -- it's in progress.  The

14     steps that are being undertaken are to transcribe the handwritten notes

15     and then have those transcriptions translated into English.  That is a

16     process that is still ongoing.  There's a separate issue regarding the

17     transcription and translations of the tapes, and that is something that

18     will take a much longer time to have completed.

19             As Your Honour indicated, we have asked for an extension of time

20     until the 16th of July to eventually seek leave to amend our exhibit

21     lists.  We chose that date being conscious of the need to have a 98 bis

22     hearing.  We're looking at the material, and we may be able to propose

23     only a limited number of pages, if any at all.  So we will, of course,

24     get back to you on that by July, but we -- I think I can safely say we

25     will not seek to add all of these note-books, for example, and we may

Page 16108

 1     even be able to limit a request much more than that.  So we are fully

 2     conscious of the need to keep the schedule of the case, and we are making

 3     efforts in that regard.

 4             We will soon, I believe this week, be putting the material that

 5     is being scanned by the Office of the Prosecutor onto the EDS so it is

 6     being disclosed to the accused as relevant material, and in that way we

 7     are seeking to comply with our disclosure obligations.  And, of course,

 8     anything that we choose to propose as exhibits or anything that we

 9     determine to fall within our disclosure obligation under Rule 68, we will

10     provide to the accused according to the directions of the Trial Chamber.

11             So this may not fully address Your Honour's question, but this

12     is, I think, as close as I can get it today, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Marcussen.

14             One moment, Mr. Seselj.  I will give you the floor, Mr. Seselj,

15     but I would like to say one thing.

16             Mr. Marcussen, of course we will wait for you to forward all of

17     this to us once it has been translated.  We have to wait until the 16th

18     of July.  But that said, Mr. Marcussen, you told us that you would give

19     us some portions of these note-books and not all of them.  That's fine.

20     We will look at them with the utmost care.  But as you know, the

21     Trial Chamber is currently working on a decision pertaining to the Bar

22     table motion.  This is in progress and relates to all the interviews

23     given by Mr. Seselj.  For instance, to give you some idea of the

24     complexity of this matter, on the 28th of May, 1992, Mr. Seselj gave an

25     interview to the daily paper "Borba."  In this interview, he talked about

Page 16109

 1     the support given to General Mladic, and he characterised General Mladic

 2     as an expert and commander of the Serbian Army.  We will, of course, look

 3     into all of this in relation to all the documents to see whether this is

 4     relevant in any way and whether this has any probative value whatsoever.

 5             And let me give you briefly another example.

 6             On the 6th of August, 1992, Mr. Seselj gave two press conferences

 7     which are mentioned in one of his books.  At this press conference,

 8     Mr. Seselj reminded everyone that only the army and the police must

 9     fight.  The paramilitaries must not go into combat.  He indicated that

10     these people are deployed in the area of Pljevlja and fought alongside

11     and under the command of the Army of the Republika Srpska.  Therefore, it

12     might be interesting to discover whether, in the note-books of

13     General Mladic, the volunteers of the Serbian Radical Party are mentioned

14     that fought and were placed under the command of General Mladic.  I could

15     spend hours on this.  This, of course, will require an awful lot of time.

16             Mr. Seselj, as far as General Mladic's note-books are concerned,

17     was this the point you wished to raise?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, I'm astonished

19     by the exceptionally bad translation of these so-called statements of

20     mine.  First of all, I don't know what kind of fighting is alleged to go

21     on in Pljevlja.  There was no fighting in Pljevlja; there was fighting in

22     other places.  But God knows who translated this and with what

23     intentions.  I was not able to find the passage that you mentioned.

24             However, through the Belgrade press, I found out that the

25     Prosecution here intends to offer the so-called Mladic diaries into

Page 16110

 1     evidence.  I read in the Sarajevo and Zagreb and Croatian press that

 2     there is -- there are great doubts about the authenticity of these

 3     diaries.  And how come these diaries are suddenly found when the police

 4     had searched the Mladic house umpteen times and failed to find them, and

 5     now they suddenly do?  I don't know, maybe these are his real diaries,

 6     and they say there are 3.500 pages of them.  My colleagues in prison, who

 7     have already received copies of these diaries, say that my name is not

 8     mentioned in them anywhere, although in two or three places Mladic refers

 9     to "Seselj's men," but in some locations that have nothing to do with the

10     locations mentioned in the indictment.  Maybe this is true, maybe not.

11             To date, I have not received anything, but it is my impression

12     that the Prosecution mentions the possibility of tendering the Mladic

13     diaries only to prolong the Prosecution case, to procrastinate, and the

14     Prosecution is doing this rather successfully.  I thought that their

15     motion under 98 bis would be filed in May.  You have already postponed it

16     for September.  And if we are to deal with the Mladic diaries, that can

17     go on and be postponed until December.

18             I have already decided not to file the 98 bis submission.  Why

19     would I participate in any exercise meant to prolong the completion of

20     this trial?  And if the Prosecution does tender the Mladic diaries, then

21     I insist on getting all of the diaries in their entirety, and not only

22     the manuscripts, which are hard to read.  As I saw in the Belgrade press,

23     I would find that hard to read.  I demand the transcripts of these

24     diaries, typed up on a typewriter or computer in the Serbian language.

25             The Prosecution has already done such things with other diaries.

Page 16111

 1     I'll remind you of only one false witness who testified about Vukovar and

 2     who had some sort of note-book of his own, and I had to point out to you

 3     how, on the latter pages, in a completely different pen, he added certain

 4     things that he thought would be useful to him here.  He was dealt with in

 5     closed session, so I won't mention his name.  The Prosecution in that

 6     case provided typed transcripts of that note-book for the other accused.

 7     Therefore, I demand all of the 3.500 pages in a typed-up transcript.

 8             You will see that these diaries, at least in my case, cannot

 9     represent any sort of corroborating document for the indictment.

10     However, they could be exculpatory material under Rule 68(1), and I will

11     insist on them.

12             That's all I have.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I thought I

14     understood, but maybe I misunderstood.  When the OTP received from the

15     Serbian authorities these CD-ROMs dealing with these diaries, you must

16     have sent the CD-ROM to Mr. Seselj.  What exactly did you do, as far as

17     disclosure is concerned?  He says, I read this in the media.  Wasn't he

18     given a CD-ROM with the 3.500 pages in B/C/S?

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  That's correct, Your Honour, the accused has not

20     yet received any of the material.  The Prosecution received -- the

21     Prosecution is finishing or has just finished various technical

22     examinations of the actual note-books that the Office of the Prosecutor

23     received and has made its own scanning of the note-books.  That material

24     will be the evidence that we intend to use, so these would be the

25     digitised copies of the physical evidence that the Prosecution received.

Page 16112

 1     That will be disclosed to the accused, as I said, on the EDS, and I think

 2     that is taking place this week.

 3             It is correct that the Prosecution was also provided a hard drive

 4     where the Serbian authorities had done a scanning of materials.  For

 5     record-keeping purposes, we are considering the actual hard copy to be

 6     the best -- the hard copy and the OTP scanning of the material to be the

 7     best version of this evidence, and this is the material that's going to

 8     be disclosed.

 9             There have been in other cases where some of this material has

10     been disclosed to the accused based on the Serbian scannings.  In this

11     case, we have chosen that we will disclose the actual OTP scannings, so

12     that's the process.

13             As to what the accused has said about the contents, I can say

14     that we are reviewing the material, and had we -- had we found that this

15     evidence was highly relevant to the accused, contained a lot of

16     exculpatory material or anything like that, we might have proceeded

17     differently.  We have considered that in light of what we have been able

18     to access of this material, the most efficient way to deal with

19     disclosure would be to disclose our official scanning of the actual

20     evidence we have received so that we do not have multiple copies floating

21     around, and avoid problems with missing pages and things like that.

22             So that is how we have proceeded.  And as I said, the accused

23     should be getting this material this week.  And when I say "this

24     material," what I'm talking about is things that we have received in

25     paper format, note-books and documents that have been ceased, except for

Page 16113

 1     certain medical documents, but relevant evidentiary material will be

 2     provided to the accused.

 3             Processing the tapes, as I mentioned, is a difficult and more

 4     complex process, but this material will also, as it becomes available, be

 5     made accessible to the accused.  So we're processing with this as quickly

 6     as we can, and we try to be efficient by making sure that we have an

 7     official version being provided so the accused -- which is probably

 8     numbered and all these other things so we can find our way around in all

 9     this material.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I have a

11     technical question for you, but maybe you won't be able to answer it; I

12     don't know.

13             When the Serbian authorities sent you these documents, did they

14     attach all the procedures regarding the search and the seizing of the

15     documents?  Was that attached so we know exactly who was there when the

16     documents were found?  Is there a very specific detailed list of all

17     documents seized, and so forth and so on?  Or maybe you don't know

18     anything about this.

19             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, the material was received together

20     with a report about the actual seizure and an inventory made by the

21     Serbian authorities, and we have -- we are also inventorying the

22     material.  But the material came together with an official report about

23     the seizure operation.  And, of course, depending on whether or not we

24     will tender any evidence or whether any evidence of this nature will

25     become evidence in the case, this might be relevant to authenticity.

Page 16114

 1     There have been a number of other steps taken, but at this stage I think

 2     the main target is for us to provide the accused with access to this

 3     material on the EDS so he can start reviewing it there, and we will try

 4     to come back, as I said -- we will not try; we will come back by the 16th

 5     of July with a motion and indicating whether there's anything that we

 6     would find important enough to seek to add to the exhibit list at this

 7     late stage, and we will disclose material that we consider exculpatory to

 8     the accused in hard copy to him as we move along.

 9             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

10             Mr. Seselj, would you like to take the floor on this so we can

11     finish this discussion on the Mladic diaries?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know in which way the

13     Prosecutor intends to disclose this material in electronic form.  I don't

14     know what's going on with the Prosecutor.  What is he talking about?

15     This is nonsense.  At the beginning of this trial, the Trial Chamber made

16     the decision that everything has to be disclosed to me on paper.  What am

17     I supposed to do with the electronic files?  Where am I supposed to

18     review them?  That's out of the question.  Everything has to be on paper.

19             And in addition to the so-called alleged Mladic original, there

20     must be also a transcript in the Serbian language, because, as I said, I

21     am not able to read Mladic's handwriting.  If I am not able to read

22     Mladic's handwriting, you cannot force me.  I can't, and that's the end

23     of it.  Every word from the diaries has to be retyped for me to be able

24     to read it in Serbian.  I won't have it any other way.

25             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, as you know,

Page 16115

 1     Mr. Seselj is an expert at procedure, and he remembers the

 2     Trial Chamber's decision stating that all disclosure must be made on

 3     paper.

 4             So we've understood what you want to do.  You're waiting for the

 5     translation, and then you will disclose all relevant elements to

 6     Mr. Seselj, be it exculpatory or not, or incriminatory, but Mr. Seselj is

 7     now telling us that he wants a hard copy.  He wants the documents on

 8     paper.  He wants, number 1, a transcription in his own language, a

 9     transcription of all handwritten documents written by Mr. Mladic, and

10     then he also wants the English version of this, and all this on paper.

11     Do you intend to meet his demands?

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, with all due respect, I do believe

13     that the earlier ruling on disclosure has been that the Prosecution has

14     to disclose all its exhibits and witness statements to the accused in

15     hard copy and all exculpatory information to the accused in hard copy,

16     whereas material that's relevant to the case is to be disclosed or can be

17     disclosed in electronic format.

18             The accused has signed a receipt for his password for access to

19     the electronic disclosure suite, which is the place where we do

20     electronic disclosures.  I believe he did that in 2007, and we are

21     proceeding to disclose in that way.

22             In terms of what material will be available there, there will be

23     pictures of -- there would be the scanned images of the handwritten

24     note-book, there will be the B/C/S transcription of those note-books, and

25     extra effort is being made for this particular bundle of documents to

Page 16116

 1     make sure that the images and the transcribed pages correspond to each

 2     other so they can be read side by side.  And a lot of energy is going

 3     into making sure that annotations and things like that are indicated also

 4     in the typed-up version.

 5             So that is how we are proceeding with this material, Your Honour.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me tell you one more thing.

 7     I've never signed for any password.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute, Mr. Seselj.  You

 9     are raising a problem, but it will be solved in the following manner:

10     After July 16th, because the Prosecutor needs time, but after July 16 the

11     Prosecutor will file a motion to add to its 65 ter list a number of

12     documents.  In this motion, which will be written in English, he will

13     give his motivation and he will attach the said documents in B/C/S.  The

14     originals in B/C/S, of course, so that the Trial Chamber can take a look

15     at the writing.  I'm extremely interested in the handwriting to make sure

16     that it is Mr. Mladic's handwriting.  And we will also have the

17     transcription in B/C/S of the content of the document and the English

18     version of said document.  And, of course, you will be -- will obtain

19     this motion.  So these documents tendered by the Prosecution will be

20     disclosed to you as hard copies through this motion.

21             However, if I'm not wrong, I believe I understood that there will

22     be a number of documents that will not be tendered, but that will be

23     disclosed to you, but they will only be disclosed in electronic form.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Mladic diaries,

25     in their entirety, are one document, and only as such can they be

Page 16117

 1     admitted into evidence.  Of course, you may order, to facilitate work,

 2     that only passages be admitted, but before such admission I must be made

 3     familiar with the entirety of the document, just as the passages that you

 4     find to be relevant, because perhaps I will have my own assessment of

 5     relevance that I would emphasise in my response to the Prosecution

 6     motion.  You cannot deprive me of the right to evaluate relevance myself.

 7     Your judgement on relevance comes last, but it's not the only one.  There

 8     is the Prosecution's evaluation - that's the initial one - and then I

 9     must give my own evaluation.  And in order to do that, I have to get

10     everything on paper and transcribed, retyped, so that I can read it all

11     and present my views.  And you do your own reckoning, how many days I

12     will need to read 3.500 pages at the rate of 100 pages a day.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, my fellow Judge,

14     Ms. Lattanzi, was telling me, and I think she's right - I believe

15     Judge Harhoff will also agree - she was telling me, and I agree with her,

16     that the accused must have the entire Mladic diaries, A to Z.  I mean,

17     that's normal, that's normal groundwork.  And Mr. Seselj is telling us

18     that if there is 3.500 pages, he can only read 100 pages a day, which

19     means that it will take 35 days for him to go through these diaries.

20     That's it.

21             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, as I said, the material will be

22     available as of this week to the accused on the EDS.  The Trial Chamber's

23     earlier ruling has been that we disclose relevant material in electronic

24     form, and we disclose our exhibits and Rule 68 material in hard copy.  We

25     will do that.

Page 16118

 1             I can inform the Chamber that as far as I'm aware, the case

 2     manager of the accused and the legal assistant assigned by the Registrar

 3     to assist the accused have not been receiving -- have not requested

 4     access to the EDS.  Maybe the accused should consider asking his

 5     assistants that they get access to the EDS so that he, himself, and his

 6     assistant can more effectively access the material there.  But the

 7     material will be available to him in full.  It will be available in the

 8     form he requests.  And we will, on an ongoing basis, be putting material

 9     there in the directory which identifies the Mladic material so it's easy

10     to find and it can be searched, and he can read it there.  And we're

11     complying with the Trial Chamber's order as to how we should disclose

12     this material.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'll give you the

14     floor in a minute.  But Mr. Marcussen just told us that your associates

15     can have access to the electronic version, and thanks to this I can

16     immediately move on to the next subject.

17             As you know, Mr. Seselj, the Trial Chamber is very concerned

18     about the rights of the Defence, and we believe that, according to the

19     Statute, that you must be able to have all the necessary resources

20     provided by Article 21 in the Statute.  We noted there was a bit of a

21     stalemate on this, and because of this the Trial Chamber some time ago

22     seized the Serbian authorities for a request.  We wanted the Serbian

23     authorities, notably the Serbian tax authorities, to tell us what exactly

24     was your estate and your tax situation in Serbia.  We wanted to have

25     information also on your wife's tax situation, and we wanted to know what

Page 16119

 1     kind of marriage contract you had, whether there was a separation of

 2     ownership or whether you had common ownership, and so forth and so on.

 3     So we seized the Serbian authorities of such a request, and I signed a

 4     letter sent to the minister of co-operation.

 5             A few days ago, I got a letter from the minister of co-operation

 6     saying that all requests made by the Trial Chamber had already been

 7     answered earlier, but the answer was sent to the Registry, and the

 8     minister told me that the Registrar had a great number of letters dealing

 9     with this issue.  So the Registry has, in its hands, all the elements

10     that it is asking you to provide to it.  It's a bit strange.  The

11     Trial Chamber is going to try to get to the bottom of this with the

12     Registry, but I want to tell you this because I want you to know that we

13     did our utmost to make sure what your situation -- to check your

14     situation, so to make sure that your assistants could eventually help

15     you, as Mr. Marcussen just said.

16             So, Mr. Seselj, what did you have in mind?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the status of this

18     document that the Prosecution is trying to tender belatedly, that is, the

19     Mladic diaries in their entirety, in the legal nature of things, must be

20     the same status as of evidence tendered under 65 ter.  This is not just

21     any old document.  It's a document being offered for admission into

22     evidence, and it has to be on paper.  The only thing that doesn't have to

23     be on paper is a video-clip or an audio-recording, but even there

24     transcripts are compulsory, and we normally got them.

25             Now, the Prosecution says they will decide next week on the

Page 16120

 1     electronic version and disclose them to me, and I'm telling them they

 2     will not give me anything in electronic version.  Now, who do you

 3     believe, me or the Prosecution?  I guarantee you with my life that they

 4     will not hand me anything in electronic form, and he says the opposite.

 5     And who's telling the truth now?  As usual, only I am telling the truth

 6     between the two of us.  When I get 3.500 pages transcribed and on paper,

 7     I will read them through in a very few days.  I will work through

 8     Saturday and Sunday without any rest, although my doctors advise me to

 9     rest, but I'll forego all rest.  Let's see them.  I just fighting for the

10     protection of my rights; nothing else.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             We will wait for the Prosecution to disclose all this to you.

13     And as you said, very justly, of course, if some of these documents or

14     all documents are admitted, they will be admitted in hard copy, paper

15     copy, of course.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And you should know this as well:

17     I never signed for any password, and my advisers will not do this work

18     because they're not paid for it.  I am in contact with them every day.

19     They do a job of work here and there, but they cannot do work of this

20     sort.  They have not been paid in seven and a half years.  They have to

21     be paid for all they've done so far.  You can't possibly think that one

22     day in the future I will accept that their payment runs from some day in

23     the middle of the case.

24             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             Mr. Seselj, as far as the Trial Chamber is concerned, I think

Page 16121

 1     that we've been through all pending issues.  I'm not going to go into

 2     details, but there's still a few motions that we must rule on.  Some of

 3     these motions are quite old, a few months old, actually, and we're doing

 4     our utmost to work as quickly as possible.  And thanks to our

 5     Legal Officer, we will soon be able to rule on all these pending motions.

 6     These are technical motions, mainly, and they shouldn't create any

 7     problems.

 8             Mr. Seselj, are there any other issues you would like to raise?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do.  I do have 12 issues to

10     raise.  I'll try to be very concise.  However, it's a long time since we

11     last met, and they've accumulated.  On top of it, all these issues were

12     actually initiated by the Registry or the Prosecution or the

13     Trial Chamber, itself.  I hope you will be patient, and I have never

14     abused your patience before.

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Page 16122

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Page 16123

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Page 16124

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Page 16125

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24             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] I have something I would like to

25     add, Mr. Seselj.

Page 16126

 1             You are here to conduct your defence.  You are not here to

 2     demonstrate that you are an enemy of NATO, of the United States, and we

 3     are not here to listen to your speeches along these lines.  We are here

 4     to listen to your defence.  I therefore advise you of the fact that when

 5     you take the floor from now on, I shall control this, and I shall check

 6     whether you are presenting your Defence case or whether you are

 7     discussing things which are not at all relevant in this case.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I fully agree with what my

 9     colleague has just said, because when you make such statements, if you

10     think of the public, if you think of the people in Serbia, you want to

11     give the impression that this Tribunal is illegal.  It's not the first

12     time that you've said this, but the Judges sitting before you, that they

13     have to take part in all of this, you know this more than anyone, since

14     you see us very regularly, you know that the Bench is there to render

15     justice.  We do not depend on NATO, we do not depend on the

16     United States, on Italy, France, or Germany.  We are Judges who do our

17     job, and you are presumed innocent.

18             You put us in the same bag as those people you call your enemies.

19     I would like to state that the Judges sitting before you are not your

20     enemies.  We are impartial, independent, and we do our job as best we

21     can.  We take your interests into account, we take the interests of

22     international justice into account.  We are not biased in any way against

23     you.  We make sure that you are wary of the consequences which might

24     arise out of your behaviour.  You are the only person concerned about

25     this.  And my colleagues have expressed their views on the matter, and I

Page 16127

 1     fully agree with what they have both said.

 2             You give the feeling that you are not interested in your trial,

 3     and what you would like to do with this trial is denounce what NATO may

 4     have done, but this is not of interest to us.  What we are interested in

 5     is to know whether there are, in the Prosecutor's documents, anything

 6     that could be incriminating for you.  If there isn't, then you will be

 7     acquitted, and if there is, then we will explain why that is the case.

 8     But we need to go beyond the 98 bis proceedings in order to do this.

 9             You have 10 or 11 subjects left.  You have the floor.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Please replace

11     "Denmark" instead of "Germany."

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, if you were objective

13     and impartial, you would never have agreed to be Judges in this illegal

14     court.  But since you did agree, you agreed to carry out your tasks.  You

15     all come from NATO member countries, who bombed Serbia bestially.  You

16     killed Serbian children for three months, and you are convincing --

17     trying to convince me that you are objective.  You have been holding me

18     here illegally for seven and a half years.  According to the Rome Statute

19     of the ICC, a trial chamber is obliged every six months, ex officio, to

20     review the decision on detention.  You never made a decision on

21     detention.  You just issued an arrest warrant, and nothing more.  You

22     have been keeping me here for seven and a half years and going through

23     all these machinations by the Prosecution and listening to false

24     witnesses.  How many times have you postponed proceedings, and you're

25     postponing them again.  The longer you postpone them, the longer you are

Page 16128

 1     receiving these lovely Judges' salaries at this Tribunal.

 2             I don't care how you will sentence me.  I don't expect anything

 3     good from you.  You're my enemies because you come from NATO member

 4     countries who are hostile towards my fatherland of Serbia, and you cannot

 5     be anything else to me other than enemies.  I have been very civil

 6     towards you, but the fact that I have been civil does not mean that I

 7     have to like you.  I don't like you.  I'm treating you as my enemies, and

 8     you have seen that every day of this trial.  Every day, you could have

 9     seen that, from Day 1.  Yes, you are my enemies, and you have been given

10     the assignment of taking my head off.  Well, go ahead and do it once and

11     for all, instead of waiting for every new evidence.  There won't be any

12     new evidence.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, this could go on

14     for a long time, but I must tell you that I have never been asked to chop

15     your head off, nor to sentence you.  Nobody would dare say that or tell

16     me that.

17             Second point.  You may think that we are your enemies, but you

18     must know that you are not the enemy of the Tribunal and not of the

19     Judges of this Bench.  You are a person who is presumed innocent and who

20     has rights, and I'm making sure that these rights are being abided by.

21             You are saying that we support the Prosecutor to delay the trial.

22     I was not the person who found Mladic's note-books at his wife's home.

23     This was part of the investigation process in the case against Mladic,

24     and the Prosecutor is seizing us of this matter.  What do you want us to

25     do about it?  Do you want us to say this is of no interest whatsoever?

Page 16129

 1     In that case, the Prosecutor would be the first to say that it was or is

 2     prevented from presenting its evidence.

 3             Is there anything else you would like to address?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to take a break now

 5     and then continue after that or should I continue right away?

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It might be necessary to.  We

 7     started at 3.00.  We have been sitting for an hour and a half.  Let's

 8     have a 20-minute break now.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 4.31 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.55 p.m.

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19  Let's move into open session, since this has to do with protected witnesses.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 16130

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is no doubt -- there is no

 9     need to explain that I have nothing nice to say about Aleksandar Vucic,

10     nothing nice, but I am not the kind of person who would plant something

11     that then he would be held responsible for, in turn.  I published a book

12     that, in its title, contains his name, but I would be the one who could

13     be held responsible for the contents of the book.  I am responsible for

14     the contents of the book.  That needs to be quite clear.  He is not to be

15     held responsible for anything in this case.  I was just so malicious to

16     put his name in the book for political reasons.  What is in the book is

17     exclusively my responsibility.  And since you have again initiated that

18     question, I have already informed you that the entire circulation of the

19     book has been issued to the population of Bor as part of the election

20     campaign of the Serbian Radical Party.  Perhaps you -- these are the last

21     editions, copies of the book.  You will not be able to get your hands on

22     any other copies of the book unless you go and get them from the citizens

23     of Bor.  You can get them now, because I'm not going to give them to you

24     later.  And I hope you will not take them from me by force.  But, in any

25     event, I have no means of defending myself from NATO forces, so I suggest

Page 16131

 1     that you ask the usher to take these books from me right away and hand

 2     them over to Mr. Marcussen.

 3             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber will not

 4     accept them.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             If Mr. Marcussen wants the books, he can take them right now,

 7     because I am not going to give them to him after the session unless he

 8     wants to get into a fight with me.  But I am not a proponent of fighting,

 9     myself.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, do you wish to

11     have the books?

12             MR. MARCUSSEN:  We always receive what the accused give us, so we

13     would also take this.

14             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, Mr. Marcussen would

15     like to have the books.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here they are.  Mr. Marcussen can

17     personally come and receive the copies of the books from my hands.  I

18     don't understand why everybody's afraid of me.  I could have signed the

19     books for him, too.

20             Anyway, let us move to more serious things, if you permit me,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you have the floor.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have 11 questions but I'm going

24     to try to be very brief.

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Page 16132

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Page 16133

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Page 16134

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 7             I shall, therefore, ask the Registrar to prepare an order to

 8     redact this part.

 9             Mr. Seselj.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I will not speak

11     anymore, since you have declared this as confidential.  You are

12     preventing me from submitting my closing arguments.  How can I refer to

13     this case in my closing arguments; only in the way that I referred to it

14     earlier?  Does that mean that my closing arguments will be redacted, that

15     they will be confidential?

16             JUDGE LATTANZI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, you can challenge

17     the decisions handed down by the Chamber, as you can concerning

18     confidential documents.  So the documents remain confidential, and if

19     they remain confidential, the Trial Chamber, if it does not overturn its

20     decision, cannot do anything else about it.  It can, therefore, only

21     redact this part.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't disclose the document.

23     I'm talking about the occurrence generally.  I didn't refer to the name

24     of the witness.  We don't know which document is being discussed.  I'm

25     just talking about the general occurrence, that a witness stages being in

Page 16135

 1     danger and then that is something that is ascribed to me.  Then it turns

 2     out that I would be someone who would be endangering the safety of the

 3     witness.  This is what it would seem like.  And in the beginning, right

 4     away you believe this story.  Now that the truth has been uncovered, it's

 5     necessary to redact the transcript.  It's like strangling me in the dark,

 6     and if you're doing that to me, there's nothing I can do.  You can just

 7     continue strangling me in the dark.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, three things.

 9             First of all, nobody wishes to strangle you, and I must say I do

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Page 16136

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 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We seem to be talking at

 3     cross-purposes.  We belong to different civilisations, and we don't only

 4     speak different languages, our brains are set up differently.  I claim to

 5     you that I did not disclose confidential documents.  I'm talking about a

 6     phenomenon that could happen in relation to any of your witnesses or any

 7     of your documents.  I have not given the number of a document or the name

 8     of a witness.  I'm just pointing out to you a phenomenon that is

 9     occurring, and I want you to respond.  Maybe my brain is in need of

10     examination, but in any case I forbid a post-mortem on my body after my

11     death.

12             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please address your next topic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Third point.

14             I received the motion of the Prosecution for judicial notice to

15     be taken of adjudicated facts in the Krajisnik case.  I strenuously

16     oppose this motion, because Momcilo Krajisnik did not have an adequate

17     defence.  During his trial, he came into a conflict with his counsel.  He

18     was unable to eliminate that counsel because the Trial Chamber was

19     against him.  In appeals proceedings, he had to represent himself, so

20     that this is absolutely untenable and inadmissible in this case.  Not a

21     single adjudicated fact from the Krajisnik case could be taken judicial

22     notice of, because Krajisnik did not have a fair trial.  He had a trial

23     without proper Defence.

24             Number 4.  I received a second motion of the Prosecution for

25     non-disclosure of names and identifying information about witnesses.  The

Page 16137

 1     date is 29 April, and I received it seven days ago, 8 June.  That's six

 2     days ago.  The Prosecution wants redactions to be made in the witness

 3     statements of various witnesses who mention my name and whose statements

 4     have been used in other cases.  They invoke that shameless decision of

 5     the Trial Chamber in that case, and the interpreter made a mistake,

 6     saying that I was sentenced to 15 minutes of imprisonment.  It was 15

 7     years -- sorry, 15 months, and this is the greatest disqualification of

 8     the validity of these proceedings.  The proceedings are underway still,

 9     but they are about to convict me.

10             This argument of the Prosecution does not hold water.  I want all

11     these unredacted statements of all these witnesses.

12             Number 5.  On a number of occasions, I demanded --

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj, I'm sorry, but I

14     find it difficult to follow you.  You have just talked about a case which

15     led to you being sentenced to 15 years [as interpreted] imprisonment.

16     You have asked for the witness statements to be disclosed to you.  Now,

17     as part of the appeals proceedings, you need to turn to the

18     Appeals Chamber for this.  I'm not competent in this matter.  I can't

19     interfere in any way in the appeals proceedings.

20             What is it, exactly, that you're asking for?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only stating a fact when I say

22     that you have horribly bad interpreters.

23             The Prosecution is asking, with relation to statements that he

24     should disclose to me, statements of witnesses from other cases that

25     mentioned my name and did not appear in this case, that these statements

Page 16138

 1     be redacted before being disclosed to me, and their main argument in

 2     support of this motion is this judgement of the Trial Chamber convicting

 3     me to 15 months of imprisonment as having -- as if I had disclosed names

 4     of protected witnesses, and I did not disclose those names.

 5             I hope you had a better interpretation now.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay.  Granting to redact the

 7     statement of witnesses in other trials, where names were mentioned, and

 8     you were against this?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have understood now.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On a number of occasions, among

12     other things, I asked the Prosecution, under the Rule 68(1), hand over to

13     me all the documents relating to Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, and the

14     so-called Serbian Volunteer Guard.  The Prosecution has sent to me a

15     number of irrelevant documents and mainly shirked from complying with

16     this obligation.

17             Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, he's named by full name as one of the

18     people who are included in the joint illegal enterprise in my indictment.

19     I recently got documents relating to the negotiations between Arkan and

20     this Tribunal in 1999, focusing on the possibility of his giving evidence

21     in exchange for cessation of legal pursuit of him.  Now I got hold of one

22     of the Prosecution documents that the Prosecution had given to some

23     Defence teams in other cases, not to me.  It's not a confidential

24     document.  It's a document from the State Security Service of Serbia,

25     dated 7 January 1991.  The numbers given by the Prosecution to these

Page 16139

 1     documents run from 0632-0999 to 0632-1010.  We see from this

 2     document that the State Security Service of Serbia has at its disposal

 3     information that Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, had been mobilised in 1989 --

 4     sorry, recruited in 1989 by the State Security Service of Montenegro, led

 5     by Kekovic, and the leaderships of Bosnia, Croatia, and perhaps even the

 6     Vojvodina were behind it.  His men were supposed to chart slogans and

 7     carrying billboards to disrupt the elections at protest rallies.  That's

 8     how he started protest rallies.  He joined the masses, trying to be the

 9     first ranks and to shout slogans that would attract the media reporting.

10     Some of these rallies are listed, and on page 2 it says that he also

11     appeared at one rally in Belgrade in February 1989, carrying a large

12     picture of Slobodan Milosevic and wearing worker's clothing, and he tried

13     to mount the horse on the square of the republic.  It's a monument there.

14             This is proof that from 1991, the State Security Service has

15     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, on their payroll as an agent against other

16     enemy services, such as Croatia, Slovenia, later Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

17     so on.  According to the information of the State Security Service, Arkan

18     worked as an agent provocateur against other state security services

19     Yugoslavia.  This document gives me reason to believe that all the crimes

20     that were committed by Arkan had been committed on the orders of his

21     bosses, so that the blame goes to the Serbian people, the Serbian police,

22     and the Serbian Army.

23             This is a document that the Prosecution never gave me into my

24     hands.  I gave you the number of this document.  You can check for

25     yourselves.  This is proof that the Prosecution did not act diligently

Page 16140

 1     under Rule 68(1).  Is this an exculpatory document?  Of course it is.

 2     Somebody who is ascribed to me as a collaborator in a joint criminal

 3     enterprise is doing the dirty work against Croats, Slovenes, and others.

 4             I hope the Prosecution will be the subject of a decision by the

 5     Trial Chamber appropriately.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, Mr. Seselj made

 7     this request of you some time ago.  Mr. Arkan, in the indictment, is a

 8     member of the JCE with Mr. Seselj.  Therefore, everything that has to do

 9     with Arkan must be of interest to Mr. Seselj.  And a few months ago, he

10     had asked the Prosecution to disclose all interviews it may have had with

11     Arkan, and then after that he discovers, through other accused,

12     obviously, because as you know, they meet in the UNDU, they discuss, they

13     exchange information, and, okay, by talking to other accused he finds out

14     that there is a document which establishes that Arkan had been recruited

15     by the state security services to do some propaganda work and so forth.

16             Now, Mr. Seselj's thesis, and he told us about this very long

17     ago, is that people committed the crimes, these crimes were committed by

18     other people than himself, and he wants you to disclose all documents

19     that have to do with the connection between Arkan and the OTP.  He needs

20     these documents under Rule 68(i).

21             What do you have to say to this?

22             MR. MARCUSSEN:  The first thing I have to say is that, at least

23     on my understanding from the way the accused explained the contents of

24     this document, it seems to be incriminating rather than exculpatory.  It

25     confirms that Arkan was part of the JCE.  He co-operated with the organs

Page 16141

 1     that are involved in the execution of the JCE.  So it's actually an

 2     incriminating document.

 3             We will look into this particular document.  We have been trying

 4     to have measures in place to ensure that various documents are being

 5     disclosed on a rolling basis.  Whether this is document -- this

 6     particular document has fallen through the cracks, we will look into.

 7     Obviously, the accused had received the document.  It's a State Security

 8     document.  I believe he has told us that he has published all these

 9     documents in Volume 4 of the very big publication that he spoke about

10     last time, so fortunately there would be no prejudice with this

11     particular document, but we'll look into it.

12             As to the issue of the agreement with OTP, I believe, that is an

13     issue that has come up repeatedly in this process, and it's an allegation

14     that the accused keeps making.  We have responded that we are not aware

15     of any such negotiations, and I simply can't assist the Court any more on

16     this.  So that's where matters stand.

17             I might actually --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the Croatian authorities have

19     information that you did that, and Mr. Marcussen doesn't have these

20     documents.

21             Now, this document is being badly interpreted by Mr. Marcussen.

22     It says that Arkan was an instrument of the leaderships of Croatia and

23     Slovenia and the then leadership of Montenegro and the then leadership of

24     Vojvodina who were opposed to the leadership of Serbia and Milosevic's

25     regime, that he was their instrument, and that he was sent deliberately

Page 16142

 1     to go to Milosevic's rallies, to shout slogans that were considered

 2     hostile, or reactionary, or what have you not, to disqualify Milosevic

 3     politically.

 4             It's not my job to defend Milosevic posthumously, but I do want

 5     to show you what kind of man Arkan was and primarily to show to you that

 6     the Prosecution is keeping these documents from me, to show to you what

 7     kind of means and ways their using.  That's a key issue for me.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Number 6.

10             I got from the Prosecution, and the date is 14 May, delivered to

11     me on the 25th of May, disclosure of the Prosecution regarding

12     Witness WS-1093 [as interpreted] and that they will not rely on the

13     evidence of this witness.  It is explained inside the document that the

14     witness, who had been proofed to testify in another case, had admitted to

15     lying about certain things in his statement.  I hope you received this,

16     too, Judges.

17             Now, the witness confessed that he lied consciously, and the

18     Prosecution is informing me they will not rely on his evidence in this

19     case.  This witness has already appeared.  We heard him.  He has gone

20     through examination-in-chief and cross-examination.  Perhaps you can

21     still remember all his lies and how he fared in cross-examination.  But

22     now the Prosecution say they will not rely on his evidence.

23             Now, the Prosecution is telling us that a witness in this case

24     had testified falsely, and let's see what you are going to do now,

25     Judges.  If this document hasn't reached you yet, I'm giving you the

Page 16143

 1     information now.

 2             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, out of memory,

 3     for two witnesses you told us that -- you told the Trial Chamber that you

 4     would not use the testimony of these two witnesses.  But out of memory, I

 5     don't think that you said in your filings that these were false

 6     witnesses.  This is the way I understood.  But Mr. Seselj says that you

 7     confessed that these were false witnesses.  I don't remember this at all.

 8     I remember that you told us that for various reasons you had decided not

 9     to use the testimony of these witnesses.  Is that it?

10             MR. MARCUSSEN:  I think the accused has correctly stated what is

11     in the filing.  We have provided the Trial Chamber with the information

12     that we have obtained, so, yeah, I mean, we have provided various things

13     concerning the one witness, who is VS [indiscernible], and the other

14     witness, VS-1093, we included with our filing information that we had

15     obtained from this witness about this particular issue.  So we have

16     provided the information that we have obtained.

17             Now, there might be issues that arise from that.  We have not

18     said anything about whether or not the witnesses state so consciously or

19     things like that, but we thought that the Chamber should have this

20     information and that the accused should have the information at his

21     disposal.  What we have decided is that we will not rely on the evidence

22     of these two witnesses for the purpose of the Prosecution's case.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             Mr. Seselj.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've received from the

Page 16144

 1     Prosecution - the date is 14 May, and I received it on the 26th May, and

 2     the title is "Disclosure of the Prosecution related to Witness WS-008

 3     [as interpreted]."  The Prosecution will not rely on his evidence.  Let

 4     me remind you, he testified wholly in the closed session, but until the

 5     last moment he kept bargaining with the Prosecution whether he will be my

 6     witness or their witness.  He wanted an apartment and a job for his wife

 7     and residency in a new country, and if they gave him that, he would

 8     testify as a Prosecution witness.  I gave you evidence that he was a

 9     false witness, you acquired additional documentation yourselves, and now

10     the Prosecution notes that this was a false witness.  They don't call him

11     a false witness in so many words, but they say they will not rely on his

12     evidence.

13             Is this now enough for contempt of court proceedings to be

14     started against them or are these proceedings only started against me,

15     never against them, for leading false witnesses?

16             I am not afraid of proceedings for contempt of court.  I am

17     telling the public that not a single witness was held accountable for

18     false testimony in this Tribunal, and false witnesses appeared here from

19     the very beginning, from the Tadic case.  One of the false witnesses even

20     went public himself about it.  And what happened?  Nothing.  There were

21     many, many since the Tadic case.

22             Now, let's go on.  Issue number 8.

23             One witness who had the pseudonym WS-037 [as interpreted]

24     testified here.  He gave several statements to the Prosecution, and in

25     none of them did he mention my name.  However, when the Prosecution were

Page 16145

 1     proofing him to testify in this case, then they prepared a statement for

 2     him ahead of his appearing in court, where they put my name in brackets

 3     in a completely artificial way.  His testimony was actually very valuable

 4     to me, because he confirmed that the Crisis Staff in Zvornik paid Arkan

 5     to come and participate in the fighting, that Arkan came in a police car

 6     from the Federal Ministry of the Interior, with the license plates of the

 7     Federal Ministry of the Interior, and with the blue rotation light on top

 8     on.  Nobody from the Federal Ministry of the Interior is with me in the

 9     joint criminal enterprise.  And when this witness finished his evidence,

10     he was in the hallway here.  How come he was in the hallway together with

11     Mr. Marcussen?  I don't understand.  Perhaps the hallways are narrow.

12     Anyway, this witness apparently told Mr. Marcussen that he had to testify

13     falsely or sign a statement or something, and now Mr. Marcussen is

14     sending The Hague investigators to Serbia on the 30th of January to talk

15     to that witness.  And here they have provided me with a partial

16     transcript of that conversation where very often there is an indication

17     "unclear" whenever the witness speaks, "unclear," "unclear," "unclear.

18     For some reason, they did not wish to give me those parts.  Can

19     Mr. Marcussen conduct himself in this way after the testimony?  I

20     understand that he was dissatisfied with the testimony of the witness in

21     the courtroom, but what does this additional harassment of the witness

22     mean?  And if something false was said, where was that; in other cases

23     when he testified, or in this case, or in a number of previous

24     statements?

25             Gentlemen, I don't know whether you received this, but I received

Page 16146

 1     it on the 2nd of June, receipt number 648.  It's a Prosecution document.

 2     Probably it wasn't sent to you at all.  648 is the receipt number signed

 3     by Mr. Marcussen personally.  I can read his handwriting.  Mladic's I

 4     cannot, but Mr. Marcussen's I can.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen.

 6             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honours, I request that page 50, line 11,

 7     through page 51, line 17, be redacted.  This particular issue is subject

 8     to a confidential decision by the Trial Chamber.  The accused is

 9     referring to material that we have disclosed to him, which is

10     confidential disclosure material.  It is not for public use.  It is for

11     his use in trial.  And it should not be referred to in open session.  So

12     I'd like to request redaction of these particular parts on this basis.

13             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, very well.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In you redact this now and it

15     doesn't say anywhere on the document that it's confidential, the witness

16     is being referred to with a number and it says that this document is

17     being furnished to me under Rule 68(1), and now if you redact the

18     transcript, then the words that I addressed earlier would be too mild in

19     any case, and I would have -- and even if I do have something more sharp

20     to say, I'm going to refrain myself from doing that.  It doesn't say

21     anywhere on the document that it's confidential, so there's no reason to

22     redact the transcript.

23             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me consult with my fellow

24     Judges.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 16147

 1             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber decides to

 2     leave the transcript as it is, public.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank God for a decision in my

 4     favour for once.

 5             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Let me just -- it may seem unnecessary, but

 6     obviously the Prosecution did not harass the witness.  The Prosecution

 7     has received certain information.  It has provided that under Rule 68, as

 8     it is obliged to do, and that's the end of the matter.  These repeated

 9     allegations and conspiracy theories by the accused are utterly

10     inappropriate.

11             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12             Mr. Seselj, move on, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm being too soft to the

14     Prosecution.  I'm not attacking; I'm just saying that there is material

15     that is not being given to me by the Prosecution.  What am I doing here?

16     I'm doing everything mostly by myself on the basis of what I'm given by

17     the Prosecution.  And if I -- I don't need to read the documents that are

18     given to me, it will make my job much easier.

19             This is another document now that is not confidential, and I

20     would just like to say that the entire statement by

21     Interpreter  (redacted) needs to be disclosed regarding the

22     conversation with Zoran Rankic, and this was a request for that.  The

23     response by Mr. Marcussen is that the Prosecution does not have that

24     statement and that the information that was disclosed to me comes from an

25     electronic version which (redacted) most probably sent to the office

Page 16148

 1     manager in Belgrade, and there is a complaint about her way of evaluating

 2     the work of the employees.  And the report contains four sections that

 3     refer to the conversation with Zoran Rankic.

 4             What is new here?  We didn't know, when Mr. Rankic testified here

 5     in the courtroom, that (redacted) reacted to the manner in which

 6     Mr. Rankic was being questioned, and she did that as early as 2004 or

 7     early 2005, when she was trying to protect some of her employee rights,

 8     communicating with the Tribunal offices in Belgrade.  This was in 2005.

 9     Well, according to 68(1), I should have received that in 2005, and not

10     only a few days before Mr. Rankic actually appeared in the courtroom.  I

11     should have been informed about this earlier so that I could do some of

12     my own investigations and find out more about this matter.  Who knows

13     what I would have dug up.  The Prosecutor is five years late in the

14     disclosure of that important element that concerns the testimony of

15     Zoran Rankic.

16             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen, I will give you

17     the floor.  I worked on this this morning, and let me tell you about the

18     personal conclusions I have drawn on this.

19             I read the entire testimony of Mr. Rankic.  It was a testimony

20     that lasted two days, and many questions were put to him on the

21     translations and the role played by the interpreter.  My fellow Judge,

22     Judge Lattanzi, also put questions to him, and that's on the transcript.

23     I also put questions to him.  Everybody put questions to Mr. Rankic.  And

24     then later I found out that for years now, the OTP had known that there

25     was a problem with this very special interpreter, and we were never told

Page 16149

 1     anything about it.  But now we know, but it would have been better to

 2     know this earlier.  So I know that the OTP is a big office, there are

 3     many departments, and maybe they only learned about this very recently,

 4     but that is the situation as it is.  We have this interpreter who

 5     obviously said a number of things.  The Trial Chamber will look into this

 6     later on.

 7             Mr. Marcussen, what do you have to say?

 8             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Your Honour, it's true that the document appears

 9     to be from January 2004.  The Prosecution became aware of this document

10     in the autumn, and we then took steps to verify, with the person in

11     question, whether or not there would be any concerns about disclosure of

12     the document to the accused.  As soon as we had a response to that, we

13     disclosed the document that we had.  The document was disclosed,

14     actually, to the accused on the 23rd of December, so way in advance of

15     the witness appearing to testify.  So he could have followed up.  The

16     document was also included in, I think, the witness notification that was

17     given to the Trial Chamber before the witness testified.  And when I'm

18     talking about the document, I'm talking about the 23rd December letter

19     that we sent to the accused.  The Chamber also got that.  So the

20     information was also provided to the Chamber in advance of the testimony

21     of the witness.

22             For reasons -- because of the nature of the document, we chose to

23     extract the relevant portions from the document, but merely that pattern

24     repeated the relevant parts in the letter that were given to the accused

25     and later were given to the Chamber as well.  So everything that is said

Page 16150

 1     about the interview of Rankic has been repeated in the disclosure, and

 2     what we have left out are also other issues, but it's our submission that

 3     all the relevant information was given in a timely manner to the accused.

 4             And as I said, it is true that the letter is dated from 2004, but

 5     the Prosecution only became aware of it years later.  And as soon as we

 6     did become aware of it, we took steps to ensure that the relevant

 7     information was disclosed to the accused.

 8             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Seselj.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should I move to my next question,

10     number 10?  It's about a confidential document.

11             I am going to carefully say only what can publicly be said about

12     a confidential document.  It's the 5th of May, 2010.  I was handed the

13     document on the 9th of June, 2010.  The Prosecution is seeking that

14     certain intercepts be admitted.

15             We listened to different intercepts here for several days

16     publicly; only the witness that commented on them commented with

17     protective measures, if you recall.  All the intercepts we listened to in

18     open session, and they were admitted.  Now the Prosecution is seeking to

19     admit, without public hearing in the courtroom, intercepts that were

20     admitted in the case file of some other cases.  I think that that is

21     absolutely unacceptable, because everything that the Prosecutor

22     considered relevant from that vast number of intercepts was presented

23     here in the courtroom in public session.  None of those intercepts were

24     marked confidential.  I don't know why this document is marked

25     confidential.  Perhaps because of the cases that are being mentioned from

Page 16151

 1     where the intercepts should be taken.  But I don't think that you are

 2     acting in a way that can be acceptable on legal grounds.  We can admit

 3     intercepts that were heard here in the courtroom, and later you can

 4     consider my objections and remarks regarding their authenticity.  But as

 5     for this particular request by the Prosecutor, this is simply something

 6     that cannot be done.

 7             I have spoken about a confidential document publicly in a way

 8     that did not reveal anything, and so you don't need to respond to a

 9     possible request by the Prosecutor to redact the transcript.

10             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This motion is currently being

11     examined by the Judges.  We will rule on the merits of the motion.  You

12     have clearly indicated what your position is orally.  It is on the record

13     now.

14             Do you have anything else you'd like to address?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have two more items.  There is a

16     letter of yours here marked "Confidential."  I would like to interpret

17     this letter without violating the confidentiality either of the document

18     or of the contents, just to indicate the problem.

19             Here, you're asking the Serbian authorities to take steps to

20     provide for the security of a certain witness who was (redacted)

21     (redacted).  You're expressing your concern for his safety.  That

22     witness was never in any danger in any way whatsoever.  The problem lies

23     with the Prosecution.  When they accepted him as a witness, they promised

24     him a job and an apartment in a foreign country, and they did not fulfill

25     that promise.  And the witness first agreed to testify falsely in order

Page 16152

 1     to receive these benefits, and then when that fell through, he did not

 2     wish to testify falsely anymore.  (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5             Again, I spoke about a confidential document without violating

 6     the confidentiality of the document or revealing the identity of the

 7     witness, so I think that there is no reason for this to be redacted from

 8     the transcript either.  In a way, this is a kind of protest of mine

 9     because of the actions by the Trial Chamber.  You had no evidence that

10     the witness was really in danger.  None of the witnesses that appeared in

11     this courtroom or that the Prosecutor placed on its list of witnesses

12     against me were never exposed to any kind of danger anywhere; not just in

13     my case, but in any case where a Serb was accused.

14             I have one more matter.

15             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall respond to what you

16     have just said on a personal note.  If my colleagues disagree with me,

17     they will take the floor.

18             Now, it's a question of substance, why at some point for an

19     ex-witness, who is a protected witness, draw the attention of the Serbian

20     authorities to the protection of this witness if necessary, and the fact

21     that this witness must be protected.  We don't have much information.  We

22     have information which is piecemeal and we might be wrong, but in this

23     case it's better to do more than not do enough, and we are asking the

24     Serbian authorities to assist us.  The Serbian authorities have great

25     resources and are able to provide protection or they may feel that there

Page 16153

 1     is no need to set up any protective measures.

 2             In addition, when we suspect that pressure is being exerted or

 3     that a given witness is being intimidated, we don't know where the

 4     threats come from.  The threats can be of a very different nature.  The

 5     threats may have no connection whatsoever with an accused.  This is

 6     something which we were faced with a moment ago.  We are asking the

 7     Serbian authorities to act promptly, and then we shall do what is

 8     necessary.  And for the moment, we have nothing.

 9             In this kind of situation, Mr. Seselj, what is important is to

10     protect the witnesses, whoever they may be.  It is better to do more than

11     to not do enough.

12             On a personal note, I sometimes, contrary to the position adapted

13     by my colleagues, have turned to the Serbian authorities, and I have

14     said, This is what I say about it.  And the Serbian authorities, who are

15     extremely competent, do their job, and I have great faith in them.

16     Contrary to what you have told us a moment ago, there is no cultural

17     divide and you operate exactly like I do.  The Serbian police, the

18     investigating judges in Serbia, the Serbian authorities, are able to

19     conduct some very valuable work, and I have no reservations as far as

20     they are concerned.  Every time we have asked them for something, I have

21     always been provided with an answer, whatever the authorities may be.

22             And I can also tell you, Mr. Seselj - this is something you don't

23     know - but in another case, in the Zupljanin case, when I wanted to know

24     why Mr. Zupljanin had not been arrested, I examined -- or referred to the

25     Republika Srpska, and they responded.  At the time, depending on the

Page 16154

 1     answer I received, I concluded that Zupljanin was not in the

 2     Republika Srpska, and in the end he was arrested elsewhere.  So I have

 3     great faith in the way in which the Serbian police operates, the Serbian

 4     justice system, and the authorities.  And when I suspect a given witness,

 5     I believe the authorities in question will know who is behind this.

 6             You said it yourself a while ago.  Thanks to the work they have

 7     done, we realised that a given witness had allegated [as interpreted]

 8     that he had been threatened, and this was not true.  In this kind of

 9     situation, it is better to do more than to do not enough for the truth to

10     be established.

11             So much for this penultimate question you wished to address.  I

12     believe you have got another question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more.  This is a

14     confidential document again, but everything that I have to say about the

15     document I will say in such a way so as not to violate its

16     confidentiality.

17             You'll recall, Your Honours, that we had a witness here a few

18     months ago who publicly testified in many other cases, and he was

19     announced as a witness -- public witness in my case.  So we spoke his

20     name publicly for a while, but when he appeared, he practically asked for

21     protective measures outside of the door of the courtroom, and that was

22     rejected, which means that that witness was most probably aware that he

23     would lie here the most.  He had appeared in other trials without any

24     protection measures.  Only in my trial did he ask for protective

25     measures.  And then he said that I, through a friend of his, exerted

Page 16155

 1     pressure on him not to testify.  I addressed that person through my

 2     associates.  He gave me a statement, which was certified in court,

 3     negating all of that.  This is a person that I knew.  We were on good

 4     terms, but we were not particularly friendly or socialised.  We knew each

 5     other.  We would say, Hello, when we saw each other.  And then I

 6     submitted this statement to you for your information, and the

 7     Prosecution, dissatisfied with the testimony of that witness, asked for

 8     him to be heard again or to provide you with a new statement of his after

 9     his testimony.  And it's like retaking the exam for the Prosecution that

10     they failed first, and this is something that cannot be done like that.

11     And I did not ask for my submission to be admitted.  I submitted it only

12     as information for you to see that things like that occur.  I have no

13     reason -- since I blasted the false testimony of that witness in my

14     cross-examination, I have no reason to deal with the matter anymore, and

15     that is why I oppose the idea that the Trial Chamber should deal with

16     this witness in the future.

17             Anyway, these are all the matters that I had to bring up for

18     today.

19             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as this motion is

20     concerned, it is still pending before the Trial Chamber.  We shall hand

21     out our decision, and your position is on the record, Mr. Seselj.  You

22     have no more issues you wish to address.

23             Mr. Marcussen, on behalf of the Prosecution, are there any issues

24     you would like to address?

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  Just very briefly one issue.

Page 16156

 1             The accused indicated today, at page 16, line 13:

 2             "I have already decided not to file the 98 bis submission."

 3             That seems to be a change from what the accused had indicated

 4     before, so maybe it's worth clarifying with the accused whether or not

 5     he's not requesting a 98 bis hearing, and, if so, whether we are

 6     continuing straight to the Defence case.

 7             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Marcussen and Mr. Seselj,

 8     we'll respond.

 9             I understood Mr. Seselj to say that he was thinking about it.  He

10     didn't say he wouldn't say -- and he didn't say he wouldn't do anything,

11     but I'm sure he will clarify this for us.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, Judges, I would suggest

13     to you to fire all interpreters and hire new ones.  First of all, not a

14     single submission is filed under 98 bis.  There's no such submission.

15     There used to be a submission at some point.  The Rules have been changed

16     and now there is no more submission.  The submission is made orally under

17     the Rules.  So there is no submission.  Mr. Marcussen still doesn't know

18     it.  I could give him a few lessons, if he likes, about the contents of

19     the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

20             Second, I said I was thinking about whether I'm going to exercise

21     that right or not.  Now, in this changed situation, when I'm deeply

22     dissatisfied about the procrastination in these proceedings without any

23     reason, I'll tell you in September.  Until September, you won't know

24     whether I will or I won't.  When you say, We are scheduling this for such

25     and such a day, then I will tell you whether I am going to or not, and

Page 16157

 1     these three months I'm going to spend guessing what you would prefer,

 2     whether that I do it or not.  That's what I said.  If that was

 3     misinterpreted, fire the interpreters, change the interpreters, or change

 4     the accused.  Maybe I am the greatest bother here for you.

 5             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall finish now.

 6             Since we are about to finish, first of all, we'll let Mr. Seselj

 7     and Mr. Marcussen know and we will tell them whether these two witnesses

 8     will come to testify, as planned, at the beginning of July.  We don't

 9     know.  For the moment, there are two possible scenarios.  Either the one

10     comes and the other will be heard via a video conference or neither can

11     come.

12             Second point.  Of course, we will wait for the submissions of the

13     Prosecution on the 16th of July.  Mr. Seselj may wish to respond to these

14     submissions.  A scheduling order will then be issued.  If we feel we can

15     move on to the 98 bis proceedings, we will then let the Prosecution and

16     Mr. Seselj know about this and give them the date of the 98 bis

17     proceedings.  In that case, during that hearing Mr. Seselj will have the

18     floor, since he will be the first to take the floor, and he will explain

19     why the Prosecution has not proved the counts in the indictment, and

20     Mr. Marcussen will respond.  Mr. Seselj may also say, I have nothing to

21     say.  I can't anticipate this.  Whatever the case may be, we will not be

22     able to have a hearing before the beginning of September, even if we are

23     cutting it fine.

24             Mr. Marcussen, do you have anything else to add?

25             MR. MARCUSSEN:  No, Your Honours, except maybe that it would

Page 16158

 1     assist the Prosecution and the accused in preparing for the witnesses if

 2     it's possible to indicate which of the witnesses will come first, if the

 3     witnesses come, between 26 or 32, and in what order they might be coming.

 4     You indicated two dates, and I just wonder whether you have an order in

 5     mind.

 6             JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, as far as the order is

 7     concerned, this has got nothing to do with us.  One of the witnesses said

 8     that he is undergoing medical treatment, and he has suggested a date.

 9     After that, he has indicated that he will not be available because he

10     will be away on holiday or whatever.  So that is the case for this

11     witness.  And as far as the other witness is concerned, we still don't

12     know what his medical condition is.  This is why we have asked the

13     Registry to set the dates, but we actually don't know.  The expert might

14     say he can come and testify.  This might be at the beginning of

15     September, but I honestly don't know.  This will largely depend on the

16     person who will undergo surgery.  I am not unravelling a secret.  We are

17     asking the Witnesses Unit to speed things up; the sooner the better for

18     everyone concerned.  Mr. Seselj is waiting for this.  As he has told us,

19     the trial is dragging on.  He believes that the Judges are contributing

20     to this, which is not true at all.  Our only objective is to move on to

21     the 98 bis proceedings as quickly as possible.

22             That said, I would like to thank everyone, and I hope to see you

23     at the beginning of July.  If that is not the case, it will be the

24     beginning of September.  Thank you.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Fifteen months

Page 16159

 1     imprisonment and not fifteen years.

 2                           --- Whereupon the Administrative Hearing adjourned

 3                           at 6.03 p.m.