Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 213

1 Tuesday, 28 March 2000

2 [Status Conference]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 3 p.m.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would the

7 Registrar call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

9 Case number IT-95-8-PT, the Prosecutor versus Dragan

10 Kolundzija and Damir Dosen.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

12 very much. I will now ask for the appearances,

13 please.

14 For the Prosecution.

15 MS. HOLLIS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

16 Brenda Hollis, Michael Keegan, Kapila Waidyaratne

17 appear on behalf of the Prosecutor.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

19 very much.

20 And could we have the appearances for the

21 Defence, please? Could you introduce yourself?

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: On behalf of Dragan

23 Kolundzija, Dusan Vucicevic, from Chicago, and

24 Mr. Jeffrey Aaron, from Los Angeles.

25 MR. AARON: Good afternoon, Your Honour.

Page 214

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Good

2 afternoon, Your Honour. I'm Vladimir Petrovic, and

3 with me is Sanja Turlokov. We represent the defence of

4 Mr. Damir Dosen.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

6 very much.

7 I will start by very quickly spelling out our

8 agenda for this particular Status Conference. I will

9 start by reminding all of you what a Status Conference

10 is and what it is that I am expecting from the

11 parties.

12 Then I will discuss with both parties the

13 point which you, the Defence, and you, the Prosecution,

14 have reached in terms of pre-trial procedures.

15 I will talk about the indictment, of course,

16 of the communication of evidence in conformity with the

17 order delivered by the Chamber on March the 10th, which

18 related to the protection of victims and witnesses. We

19 will discuss the communication of other evidence in

20 application of Rule 66(ii) of our Rules of Procedure

21 and Evidence, and then we will discuss the calendar and

22 the dates that have to be set by the pre-trial Judge.

23 I will then go over the schedule of the trial

24 proper, and I will particularly try to establish how it

25 is we can deal with the length of witness testimonies

Page 215

1 and what can be done in terms with the links that could

2 be established with other trials that are currently

3 being heard by this Tribunal.

4 Lastly, we will look at all other pending

5 issues before this Trial Chamber. I will ask of the

6 parties to tell us a little more about the accused's

7 state of mind and how they feel; I will turn to the

8 accused as well. And I will try to attend to all other

9 matters that might arise during this Status

10 Conference.

11 As for the Status Conference in itself, I

12 would simply like to remind you what you maybe know,

13 i.e., that the pre-trial Judge has a full role to play,

14 but he can only play his role to the full with your

15 cooperation, and I wish for optimum cooperation between

16 us. This is what is stipulated by both the Statute and

17 our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

18 As you may know, the Rules provide for the

19 fact that the parties can meet in order to discuss all

20 issues pending in order to try to reach agreements on

21 points of fact or points of law, and I wish for the

22 parties to take full opportunity of this, which is

23 provided for by the Statute and the Rules of Procedure

24 and Evidence, and I wish for us to try and resolve all

25 matters which the parties do not agree upon.

Page 216

1 I wish to favour all kinds of arguments and

2 discussions between you, the Defence and the

3 Prosecution. I wish you to reach agreements wherever

4 possible, and you know that these agreements can occur

5 outside the courtroom, if that is necessary; it can

6 also happen in my office, for example. The main

7 objective is to give priority to a speedy preparation

8 for the trial so that the case might be heard as early

9 as possible and in the best conditions possible. We

10 want the trial to be just for both parties

11 represented.

12 So we will try to take stock of where we

13 stand in terms of pre-trial motions, and I will then

14 try to look over the various documents which have to be

15 filed in order for the trial to begin.

16 The first question that arises and which is

17 related to the trial pre-trial procedure is precisely

18 the question of pre-trial motions, and more

19 particularly the indictment.

20 I might have to remind you of the fact that

21 an order has been made by the Trial Chamber on the 10th

22 of February, 2000, and according to this particular

23 order, which bears on the indictment, the Prosecution

24 has submitted an amendment, if you will, an amended

25 attachment to the indictment, and this amended

Page 217

1 attachment is now officially part of this indictment,

2 and that was something the Trial Chamber gave its

3 decision on.

4 Of course, the Defence, with Mr. Vucicevic

5 and Mr. Petrovic, has followed closely and has, I

6 believe, received all the necessary elements in order

7 to follow closely this particular issue, so you should

8 now know what the indictment looks like.

9 I would now like to turn to you,

10 Mr. Vucicevic, and then I will turn to you,

11 Mr. Petrovic, I would now like to ask you if there are

12 any comments that you would wish to make on that

13 particular issue.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you very much, Your

15 Honour, concerning your remarks and your willingness to

16 expedite the preparation of the trial as speedy as

17 possible.

18 We have reviewed the amended schedules to the

19 indictment, and we, at this time, do not believe that

20 that fully complies with the terms of your order.

21 However, Your Honour, in order to apply for a set of

22 preliminary motions under Rule 72, which we

23 respectfully believe that we would be permitted to

24 because that, indeed, constitutes an amendment, we

25 would like to study the matter for a few more days and

Page 218

1 then, you know, submit our application in writing.

2 But, briefly, as long as -- if I may address

3 the point, Your Honour. There is only a new column,

4 and that column is not directing the type of the

5 activity that the accused has been charged with,

6 because that's basically indicating that the accused

7 has been present from the time that the camp was

8 established to the time that the camp was disbanded.

9 However, the witnesses that the Prosecutor has clearly

10 dispute such broad errorment [sic] in the indictment,

11 and that is only one particular detail that I would --

12 you know, I wouldn't wish to kind of impose the facts

13 upon the Court at this time.

14 But not withstanding, you know, that every

15 indictment has to be looked at with a view to the facts

16 that the Prosecutor has, the Prosecutor has the duty,

17 under your ruling previously, to tie the acts of the

18 defendant to the particular charges. And I believe

19 substantially, in a form -- maybe there was an

20 attempt -- but in substance, it failed. And we'll

21 address that, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Mr. Vucicevic.

24 Now, Mr. Petrovic, since you represent

25 Mr. Dosen, would you please like to take the floor?

Page 219

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

2 we had sufficient time and opportunity to consider the

3 material submitted by the Prosecution, along with their

4 motions, and I believe that this was delivered to us on

5 the 9th of March.

6 We have some serious objections to this, some

7 of them are procedural in nature, and we would like to

8 lay them out for you today, if possible. The Defence

9 for Mr. Dosen fully understands your order, and we

10 wanted to be part of the indictment. What we are

11 bothered with is the way in which something can become

12 an integral part of the indictment. Something that has

13 so many details, that contains so many information,

14 that has so many specific charges in relation to my

15 client can only be made part of the indictment only by

16 the decision of the Chamber or by a formal process of

17 amendment of the indictment, so that it would become an

18 integral part of the indictment.

19 This is my understanding of the process, that

20 this attachment has to become formally an amendment to

21 the indictment. And the only way for an indictment to

22 be changed anyway is for it to be amended in a way

23 which is provided for by the Rules.

24 I would also like to point out something that

25 is clear to the Trial Chamber, the situation in the

Page 220

1 Kvocka trial. It was an identical type of situation.

2 After the preliminary motions, the indictment was

3 amended, and the changes consisted of several

4 attachments which became an integral part of the

5 indictment through the process of amending it. So the

6 process of the amendment, the Defence was in a

7 position, by filing preliminary motions, pursuant to

8 Rule 72, it was able to test its -- it was able to test

9 the validity of the charges, as it was done in the

10 Kvocka case.

11 There is another reason which I find very

12 important. There are some very serious charges that

13 are leveled against both the clients, and we, as the

14 Defence team, have asked from the Trial Chamber that to

15 be clarified between the parties by challenging the

16 form of the indictment and asking --

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

18 Mr. Petrovic, allow me to interrupt you for a few

19 seconds.

20 If I understood you well, as Mr. Vucicevic

21 has said for Mr. Kolundzija, you also wish to file a

22 written answer to what has been presented by the

23 Prosecution. You are not satisfied by the decision

24 given by the Trial Chamber, the decision by which the

25 Trial Chamber considers that the amended attachment is

Page 221

1 now officially part of the indictment in this case.

2 Have I well understood what you wanted to say?

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] In essence,

4 yes. Yes.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Because, at

6 any rate, it will be not be up to the Trial Judge, but

7 to the Trial Chamber in full to decide upon that

8 particular issue. What kind of schedule are you

9 looking at? When would you like to file this written

10 submission on the issue?

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No other

12 deadline except the one provided for by Rule 72 for

13 preliminary motions, no extension of the deadline.

14 This is the situation which we treat as a situation of

15 the amending of the indictment, and we only ask for the

16 deadline which has been provided for for this

17 situation, that is, the filing of preliminary motions

18 pursuant to Rule 72.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

20 very much, Mr. Petrovic. Have you finished?

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have several

22 other specific points to make which would contribute to

23 the argument.

24 I believe that in this first part, there was

25 non-compliance with the order of 10 March of this year

Page 222

1 by the Trial Chamber. And I would not like to take up

2 any more time, either of you, Mr. President, or any

3 other party represented here, but I would like to point

4 out just the most glaring points that -- omissions in

5 this motion.

6 Pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute,

7 there is no --

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. No, I

9 don't think you've understood what it is that I wanted

10 to say to you. If you think that the Prosecution has

11 not complied with our decision, you must state that in

12 writing. I'll ask the same thing for -- I'm going to

13 ask Mr. Vucicevic the same thing. I asked you when you

14 plan to submit your written documents, your written

15 comments, so that the Trial Chamber can rule, because

16 the Trial Chamber is going to rule on your comments.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Within any

18 deadline which you set out. It could be three days,

19 seven days. Any deadline is acceptable for the Defence

20 of Damir Dosen.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

22 very much.

23 Mr. Vucicevic, is it? Do you need a time

24 period in order to present your comments in writing?

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, because we

Page 223

1 are on our way to a field investigation in Bosnia, and

2 I will be staying there until the 4th, 5th, 6th, as

3 long as it takes, you know, to interview all the

4 witnesses that are available for me there. So,

5 therefore, if I may, we consider what you said in your

6 initial -- in your opening remarks, that this is an

7 amendment process to the indictment, whether it would

8 be an amendment of the text or an amendment of the

9 schedule.

10 In Rule 72, as we understand it, and it was

11 commented on last time at the hearing by the Trial

12 Chamber, this would trigger the invocation of Rule 72

13 in allowing the Defence to present its preliminary

14 motion. However, in Rule 72, the point that I would

15 only need cleared by you, Your Honour, is -- because

16 Rule 72 provides 60 days after the amendment; however,

17 30 days after the Prosecutor discloses the evidence

18 upon which the amendment is based. And we have -- on

19 the 9th of April, it will be 30 days since that was

20 submitted by the Prosecutor. We have not had any

21 submission of the Prosecutor based on what amendments

22 were made, and when the Prosecutor addresses that

23 issue, we would clearly have the decision because you

24 could then specify whether that should be 30 days.

25 But we can do it even sooner. I think, you

Page 224

1 know, we could do it within the next two weeks.

2 Because the common desire is to expedite this, I

3 believe that we can submit this within the next two

4 weeks.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm going to

6 confer with the legal officer.

7 [Judge Bennouna confers with legal

8 officer]

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm going to

10 ask the representatives of the Prosecutor, that is,

11 Ms. Hollis, whether she has any comment to make about

12 what was just said by the Defence.

13 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Your Honour, in the Prosecution pleadings on

15 this issue of the form of the indictment, the

16 Prosecution has taken the position that the schedule

17 and the amended schedule were not an integral part of

18 the indictment but rather were, if you will, a variant

19 of a bill of particulars relating to the indictment.

20 The Trial Chamber, in its decision,

21 determined that the schedule would be a part of the

22 indictment. The Trial Chamber then ordered that we

23 file an amended schedule dealing specifically with the

24 culpability under Article 7(1), the capacity of the

25 accused, and if we were alleging that each accused was

Page 225

1 responsible under both 7(1) and 7(3).

2 We did file that amendment addressing those

3 issues. We filed no additional supporting material for

4 this amendment. We did file it with the Trial Chamber;

5 it was our understanding that we were to file it with

6 the Trial Chamber. But we did not submit additional

7 supporting material, so there is no additional

8 supporting material for this particular amendment.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] For the

10 Defence, you have heard what the Prosecutor just said,

11 and if I understand you correctly, you say that there

12 is no substantive issue, no formal problem with the

13 indictment, but rather with an amendment.

14 I will give you time, then, until the 11th of

15 April, in order to submit your arguments in writing,

16 because the Chamber will have to rule in a full bench

17 on that issue that you are raising, the issue that you

18 are challenging, the fact that this is simply a formal

19 change but stating that there is really a problem with

20 the indictment itself, that is, with the counts.

21 I will ask Ms. Hollis, that is, for the

22 Prosecution, whether one week will be enough after that

23 in order to respond to the comments made by the

24 Defence, which would take us to the 25th of April. I'd

25 like to know whether that's all right for you. Are you

Page 226

1 satisfied with that, Ms. Hollis?

2 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. As I

3 understand it, the Defence would file on the 11th, and

4 then we would have one week to file our response; is

5 that correct? Would that be five -- could we have a

6 specific date? That would help clarify it.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, I've

8 made an arithmetical error. I said the 11th of April

9 for the Defence. We've got to add another week. I

10 don't have a calendar in front of me. That would take

11 us to the 18th.

12 Would that date be all right for you,

13 Ms. Hollis, the 18th?

14 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 On the basis of that, on the 18th of April,

17 we will have the Defence position and the response from

18 the Prosecution. At that point, the Chamber, meeting

19 in full bench -- as I've already said to you, since

20 this does not fall under the authority of the pre-trial

21 Judge, who can only exercise what he is competent over,

22 and this does not fall within his jurisdiction --

23 therefore, as I said, the full Chamber will render its

24 decision in the proper time.

25 As regards that issue, that is, the area of

Page 227

1 preliminary motions, I believe that was the only point

2 that was raised as regards the preliminary motions, for

3 the time being.

4 I am now going to move, if you agree, to the

5 second point, which deals with the issue of disclosure

6 of evidence. The documents -- on the basis of Rule

7 66(A)(i), the documents that were presented to the

8 confirming Judge for the indictment were disclosed to

9 the Defence. Let me remind you of this point. They

10 were redacted before being disclosed, and I would

11 repeat also that the Chamber ordered, on the 19th of

12 October, 1999, that is, the order for disclosure as

13 such.

14 In another decision, on the 10th of March,

15 the Chamber rejected the motion presented by the

16 Prosecutor that some of the documents be redacted, and

17 ordered, on the 10th of March, ordered the Prosecution

18 to produce the documents in a non-redacted form within

19 three days and to notify the Chamber by the 17th of

20 March, at the latest, unless the Prosecution were to

21 present requests for protective measures.

22 Unfortunately, the Prosecution has not

23 produced what the Chamber asked for on time. In a

24 moment, I will ask you why. You can explain that to

25 us, Ms. Hollis. And the Defence reacted, on the 21st

Page 228

1 of March, in a motion asking that that behaviour of the

2 Prosecutor be sanctioned -- that is, for failure to

3 comply with the decision of the Trial Chamber -- and

4 also asked authorisation from the Trial Chamber to

5 interview witnesses. We had to wait well beyond the

6 time period set, that is, until the 24th of March, for

7 the Prosecutor to notify -- to make the notification

8 that it was requested to do.

9 Let me remind you: It is not the problem of

10 the Registry. The Registry and the Registrar have

11 produced the documents on time, but, according to the

12 explanations that were given to us by the Prosecutor,

13 that there was an internal problem within the OTP.

14 This does not concern disclosure of the documents or

15 submission of documents by the Registry. Therefore,

16 this is a problem of communication of documents within

17 the Office of the Prosecutor itself.

18 I consider this incident to be closed now,

19 although I must remind the Prosecution of its

20 obligation to execute the decisions of the Trial

21 Chamber within the time period set by that Trial

22 Chamber, and therefore it is your responsibility to set

23 up the proper mechanism within your office so that

24 documents are submitted and so that execution is

25 carried out within the proper deadlines.

Page 229

1 The Prosecution has also requested the

2 notification which was sent to us, and in its request,

3 it's asking for protective measures, asking the Trial

4 Chamber to grant protective measures, which are

5 measures with which we are familiar. The Prosecutor

6 was asking that certain identifying data not be

7 disclosed which would allow the witnesses to be

8 located, that is, three weeks to one month before the

9 opening of the trial.

10 This deals with two witnesses, Witnesses N

11 and J. Let me remind you that in the documents which

12 were presented for confirmation, there were only four,

13 including those two, those two witnesses that were

14 presented, the statements that were made during the

15 confirming proceedings.

16 I would now like to turn to the Defence and

17 ask you -- that is, the Defence of Mr. Kolundzija and

18 Mr. Dosen -- to react to the request of the Prosecutor

19 -- that is, from the Prosecutor herself -- in respect

20 of those protective measures for the two witnesses,

21 that is, Witnesses N and J.

22 Mr. Vucicevic.

23 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Before I directly answer your question, I believe you

25 know that I have to kind of continue where Madam Hollis

Page 230

1 has left off, because on June -- on July 19th, there

2 was disclosure of the evidentiary material upon which

3 the confirmations were based. In your order that you

4 just discussed about, indicated the disclosure of all

5 the material is going to relate to the original

6 indictment and all subsequent amendments.

7 When I reviewed my file, and in reviewing the

8 submission, the most recent submission by the

9 Prosecutor, indicating upon the ministerial mistake

10 that was a full compliance, I realised there was a

11 section 3, "Extracts of Evidence," with the stamp,

12 actually handwritten filings of the Registry, dated

13 June 26, 1995, and the document contains about 105 or

14 106 pages, even though the last page is number 124, but

15 there are a few pages that were not given to us. There

16 is only -- there is about 42 pages of documents here

17 that are numbered in range 4 to 8. When I reviewed

18 material that was disclosed to us indicating there was

19 only two -- four witnesses, most of these pages are not

20 here. Obviously, when there were other statements of

21 what the witnesses when this original indictment has

22 been confirmed, and these statements were not turned

23 over to us.

24 We cannot proceed expeditiously in preparing

25 this case with this type of a piecemeal approach, Your

Page 231

1 Honour, and with a view of having this information, our

2 motion for sanction has been filed with your Chambers.

3 However, Your Honour, I have to give you a little bit

4 of a chronological overview.

5 My client, Mr. Kolundzija, has been arrested

6 on June 7th, 1999. Your order was issued -- first

7 order of protection was ordered on October 19th,

8 without any objection of us. Your reinforcement of

9 that order, basically a stern warning of compliance,

10 has been issued on March 10. The Prosecutor yet does

11 not fully comprehend what material was used and what

12 material wasn't used. Prosecutor is asking after

13 the -- one of the witnesses under the assumed name --

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] With regard

15 to the working order, just a moment, please. I think

16 that you agree with me, you agree with me when you say

17 that we've got to move in order. If I'm understanding

18 you correctly, you said that at the beginning that you

19 were missing documents, that the Prosecutor had not

20 given you all the documents that she was supposed to.

21 Is that correct?

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: It appears that way, Your

23 Honour, and I would like to tender these copies of the

24 documents that were disclosed to me by the Prosecutor

25 on July 19th for you to view and to find out whether

Page 232

1 these documents were yet disclosed or not. Because we

2 just received the statement from the Prosecutor that

3 all the supporting documents have been disclosed, so

4 that is a question in issue. I'm putting that at

5 issue.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Well, what

7 is it that you're missing?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: There was about 120 pages

9 filed with the Office of the Registry on June 26, 1995

10 and termed "Extracts of Evidence." In those 50 to 60

11 witness statements, which all of them redacted, only of

12 them were termed "Witness 1" and "Witness 2." The

13 others, they don't have any markings. What I would

14 like to know: Who are these witnesses? Because their

15 release of their names is [indiscernible] by your

16 order.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a

18 moment, please. Are we speaking about the same

19 documents? Are these the documents that were submitted

20 in support of the confirmation of the indictment? Are

21 those the documents you're talking about right now,

22 those two? And you should have them in your

23 possession.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I believe so.

25 However, the only -- because confirmation of indictment

Page 233

1 is an ex parte proceedings to which we are not privy.

2 One attempt to amend it before the Trial Chamber has

3 been abandoned so quickly as soon as we filed a motion

4 in opposition of it. I do not know what was here

5 before the Confirming Judge. All what I see what was

6 disclosed to me by the Prosecutor on July 19th, and the

7 section number 3 of material disclosed, and that was

8 disclosed pursuant to Rule 72. There is this material

9 not only that's been disclosed to me on July 19, 1999,

10 I mean -- and this material has been filed with the

11 Office of the Registry in June 26th, 1995. So there

12 is, indeed, a high probability that this material has

13 been used in confirmation of the original indictment,

14 because this case has been confirmed in 1995. Those

15 are issues that I'm putting before Your Honour, and

16 hopefully the Prosecutor can answer, because I believe

17 that --

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank

19 you very much, Mr. Vucicevic.

20 Ms. Hollis, could you throw some light on

21 that for us, please?

22 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Let me

23 attempt to do so.

24 When the indictment was originally submitted

25 for confirmation, no witness statements were provided.

Page 234

1 An extract of evidence was provided; an expert

2 statement was provided. The extract of evidence was

3 exactly as it speaks: It was an extract of evidence;

4 it was not witness statements.

5 During the confirmation proceeding on that

6 original indictment, pursuant to a request of the

7 Confirming Judge, two witness statements were

8 provided. Those witness statements are listed in the

9 exhibit that you have been given as witness statements,

10 two: Witness statement 1 and Witness statement 2.

11 Those were the only statements provided to the

12 Confirming Judge for the original indictment. The

13 material that is listed here in this receipt is exactly

14 what the Confirming Judge received. He received

15 nothing more. And I would note that it was the 16th of

16 July that the counsel was given these materials, and it

17 was the 16th of July that counsel signed for these

18 materials.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] From that

20 point, we now have clarifications for the documents.

21 The documents which were submitted for confirmation

22 were given to you in their totality entirety.

23 Ms. Hollis has just told us that there were two witness

24 statements, if I've understood correctly, only two,

25 which were provided at the same time as the documents

Page 235

1 that were provided to the confirming Judge. Therefore,

2 you should be clear now about the documents.

3 What I'm asking now is for you to tell us

4 that you have the documents that were given to you in

5 support of the indictment. What is your position on

6 the Prosecutor's motion asking for protective measures

7 for two witnesses? That's right, isn't it?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I believe that

9 Prosecutor is making differentiation between witness

10 statements in its entirety and parts of various witness

11 statements which he is naming "Extracts of Evidence."

12 The Prosecutor is at liberty to submit either the

13 statements in full or in a partial form, but whatever

14 has been presented with confirmation, whether it's in

15 full form or in partial form, as it is called

16 "extracted evidence," I believe has to be released to

17 us in its entirety and with the full names. Because if

18 the Trial Judge, I'm sorry --

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Let me

20 interrupt you for a moment. No, no, no, no. I'm

21 interrupting you. The question has been settled. What

22 had to be done in application of the Statute and the

23 Rules of Procedure and Evidence was done at that stage

24 of the proceedings. There were extracts -- well, the

25 documents that were presented for confirmation were

Page 236

1 given to you as provided for at that stage in the

2 Rules. Now, you must answer my question that I asked

3 you, the question which had to do with the protective

4 measures requested for two statements, two witness

5 statements of the Prosecution.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you

7 very much. And we will review the record of this

8 session and we'll try to find out exactly and have a

9 conference, as you indicated earlier, with you at some

10 later date to address this point. Because it seems,

11 you know, that certain points perhaps, you know, were

12 missed by me, or, you know, perhaps the Prosecutor is

13 using semantics to hide something from us. But, Your

14 Honour, your question directly, you know, that --

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

16 In order to clarify whether or not you're -- that is,

17 if you are not convinced, you can contact the

18 Prosecutor directly in order to clarify some things

19 having to do with that point, if you haven't quite

20 understood what was said. And as you said, if you have

21 any other clarifications that you want, during another

22 hearing, we can do it then. For the time being, things

23 are clear. The documents which were presented in

24 support of the confirmation weren't disclosed to you,

25 and that's the only thing to clarify in respect of the

Page 237

1 Rules.

2 Where do we stand now in respect of the

3 question that I asked you having to do with the

4 protective measures that were requested?

5 MR. VUCICEVIC: We oppose the request for

6 protective measures as submitted in the present form.

7 The request for protective measures, you know, this is

8 much broader, this is much wider, and this is

9 basically, you know, not contributing any more to the

10 protection of the witness. But perhaps, you know, the

11 main gist of this is to prevent the Defence to prepare

12 adequately for this indictment, which is rather poorly

13 supported by the witness statements of the Prosecutor.

14 However, in a very particular here, on

15 Witness N, Prosecutor is mentioning one of the reasons

16 that he is --

17 MS. HOLLIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I

18 apologise for interrupting, Your Honour, but if we are

19 going to go into specifics about the motion for

20 protective measures, it may be better that we go into

21 private session so that nothing that is said would

22 inadvertently disclose the identity of a witness.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I have no

24 intention of going into details. If Mr. Vucicevic is

25 opposed to this, if he is answering no, I will ask him

Page 238

1 to provide me with written comments, that is, comments

2 explaining why he is opposed to the protective

3 measures.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The deadline

6 for responding has not yet elapsed. It was two weeks.

7 Therefore, I'm going to ask that you respond within the

8 deadline set, which ordinarily would be the 7th of

9 April.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And I'll

12 wait for your answer, and then take my decision,

13 because it is a decision which comes under the

14 authority of the pre-trial Judge, that is, once I've

15 received your answer. I'm not going to ask you to make

16 any oral comments now.

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, could I address

18 you only as far as the time in which we -- I'm required

19 to present this? Because it was my anticipation that

20 this was going to be done in an oral presentation

21 today. Since Your Honour wishes the written submission

22 be submitted, and we have plans, we are departing

23 tomorrow for Prijedor and staying there until the 4th

24 or the 5th of April, and upon returning to the United

25 States, I'm afraid that I will not have time to

Page 239

1 respond, and I will ask you kindly to grant now an

2 extension of time, an additional seven days, within

3 which we could respond in writing to this motion.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So you're

5 asking for how much time, is it?

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: For additional -- until about

7 the 14th of April, because we will be in Bosnia through

8 the 5th of April.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 All right. You have until the 14th of April to respond

11 to the Prosecutor's motion requesting protective

12 measures.

13 Let me now turn to Mr. Dosen's counsel in

14 respect of the same question.

15 Mr. Petrovic, would you please give us your

16 point of view on those protective measures? Are they

17 acceptable, or do you too, if they aren't acceptable to

18 you, do you plan to present your arguments in writing

19 on that subject?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

21 will be very brief, but I would like to say something

22 about the matters discussed in the past ten minutes.

23 We have received all the supporting material with the

24 indictment, and that was on the 8th of November. Our

25 only comment would be that we should all consider the

Page 240

1 rate at which the remaining material will be disclosed,

2 which will be used by both sides during these

3 proceedings.

4 As regards the request of the 24th of March,

5 the Defence is opposed to it and will provide written

6 arguments at a time set by Your Honour.

7 As regards the sanctions suggested, we are

8 not submitting such a proposal to the Trial Judge.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 In order to simplify things, both for Mr. Kolundzija's

12 defence and Mr. Dosen's defence, you've got until the

13 14th of April to respond to the Prosecutor's motion

14 asking for protective measures for the two witnesses

15 mentioned in the motion. And at that point, a decision

16 will be taken on the motion.

17 A final point. Before we move to that final

18 point, it is, of course, understood that if I judge it

19 necessary, I'll ask the Prosecution for a copy of the

20 statements in order to verify that they do, in fact,

21 respond to the objective of the redacted statements and

22 that the reason would only be in order not to be able

23 to identify the whereabouts and names of the

24 witnesses.

25 And lastly, we might as well do it now, since

Page 241

1 there is an objection. I've heard the Defence

2 objections. I've asked the Prosecutor also to provide

3 us with a copy of the redacted statements so that I

4 could take my decision in full knowledge of what I'm

5 doing.

6 A final point. In the motion that was sent

7 to us, presented by the Defence of Mr. Kolundzija, it

8 was asked that permission be given for interviewing the

9 witnesses. We were requested that by you,

10 Mr. Vucicevic, and from our point of view, I think that I

11 remind you of the relevant paragraph in the order which

12 was rendered by the Trial Chamber, the order of 19

13 October 1999, which says the following:

14 "The Defence cannot contact a witness or any

15 potential witness whose identity was disclosed to it by

16 the Prosecution, or with any individual whose prior

17 written statements or whose confidential testimony was

18 disclosed by the Prosecution, unless written

19 notification has been given to the Prosecution within

20 reasonable time periods."

21 That's where we stand now in respect of that

22 question. If you want to contact these people,

23 Mr. Vucicevic, that is, in contact with any witnesses,

24 you will have to inform the Prosecution in writing of

25 that. That's what was mentioned in the order.

Page 242

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: If I may address that --

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And it, of

3 course, is understood that as regards the statements

4 which have been redacted, that there would be a time

5 period set before the trial in order to allow you to

6 get into contact with the witnesses in question.

7 Mr. Vucicevic.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we are all

9 limited by our time on this world, and since the time

10 is -- everything is measured in time, the time even

11 affects judicial orders; regrettably, but it does.

12 Your order, just as you read, was dated October 19th,

13 and it's five months later, Your Honour, and there is a

14 release of the witness that was given to us, his

15 statement was given to us, that is absolutely

16 favourable to Mr. Kolundzija, and we could have asked

17 for permission to interview him had his name been

18 disclosed to us in a timely fashion, as you ordered.

19 And we would have notified the Prosecutor, but that was

20 all done on the 24th of March, and I departed -- and

21 that was Friday, I believe, or Thursday. And, Your

22 Honour, as long as you have issued that order, I ask

23 you respectfully for the permission to interview that

24 witness and if I could ask the Prosecution, could I use

25 the name, because his name was given to us, could I use

Page 243

1 his name in open court? Any objection?

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis?

3 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, it's one of the

4 witnesses whose unredacted statements were disclosed

5 with their names. These are not witnesses who have

6 sought protective measures. So we would have no basis

7 to object to the use of that name.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay. That's Mr. Varmaz.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Speak up,

10 Mr. Vucicevic. But I'm asking you not to address the

11 Prosecution directly. You have to go through the

12 pre-trial Judge if you want to address the

13 Prosecution. It is to me that you have to turn, and I

14 am the one leading the debate now. So now I am telling

15 you that you have had Ms. Hollis's answer. What more

16 do you want to know?

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would like to get a ruling

18 of the Trial Chamber, because this is a Prosecutor

19 witness, yes, and within the language of your order

20 of -- as reinforced on March 10, would I have your

21 permission to interview this witness, because I am

22 leaving for Prijedor tomorrow, and this witness's name

23 is Suad Varmaz.

24 Also, there is a second witness that

25 participated here on identification proceedings, that

Page 244

1 was an opening proceeding, and his name was Halid

2 Nezirovic. If I could get your permission to interview

3 those two witnesses. Those are only two witnesses from

4 the Prosecutor's list. Since one testified in the open

5 court, and another whose name was just disclosed to us

6 three days ago. Both of those witnesses have

7 exculpatory statements.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

9 would you like to react to that?

10 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, our position on

11 contacting witnesses directly by the Defence is that no

12 such contacts should be made until the witness has been

13 given the opportunity to indicate whether they wish to

14 allow such contact or not, and if they do wish to allow

15 it, if they wish to allow it in a place away from where

16 they reside. We believe that the Trial Chamber

17 decision ordering that we be given prior written notice

18 of the witnesses whom the Defence wishes to contact was

19 made in part to allow us to attempt to contact these

20 witnesses and determine if they had objections to any

21 contact by the Defence. We would like to avail

22 ourselves of that opportunity in regard to the two

23 witnesses who were just named by the Defence, to

24 determine if we could contact them and find out if they

25 have any objections to contact by the Defence, and if

Page 245

1 they would allow such contact, if they have any

2 conditions on such contact so that we may file that

3 information with you and with the Defence.

4 So we could not, at this point, indicate we

5 objected to the contact or did not object to it,

6 without an opportunity to contact these witnesses.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

8 Mr. Vucicevic, I would now ask you to simply comply

9 with the order given on October 19th and to comply to

10 this order as is provided for by the Rules. This order

11 stipulates what the procedure should be, and you have

12 not respected that particular procedure. You have not

13 done so up to now. So now I am asking you to go by

14 what is said in the order of the 19th of October. You

15 have to notify in written form the Prosecution of your

16 wishes, and you have to do so in a reasonable deadline,

17 so that the Prosecution may have the possibility to

18 react in good time to what you ask for.

19 So please notify the Prosecution in a written

20 form, stipulate in writing that you want to interview

21 the two particular witnesses you mentioned, and do so

22 within a deadline, within a reasonable deadline, which

23 will allow the Prosecution to take the necessary

24 steps. In particular, the Prosecution will be able to

25 contact the witnesses you wish to hear.

Page 246

1 Now, that is all that has to be said on this

2 particular issue of the possible interviewing of

3 witnesses by Defence counsel.

4 I will now move on to another issue which is

5 on our agenda; namely, the issue of other evidence

6 disclosure of which are provided for by Rule 66(A)(ii) of

7 our Rules of Procedure and Evidence; disclosure of,

8 among other things, all the statements that the

9 Prosecution wishes to call during the trial, statements

10 other than those we mentioned a moment ago, these

11 statements taken under oath, the affidavits that are

12 provided for in Rule 74 ter of the Rules of Procedure

13 and Evidence.

14 This issue has been dealt with by the Trial

15 Chamber in the order of the 10th of March, and the

16 Trial Chamber was convinced that it was up to the

17 pre-trial Judge to set the deadlines that apply to the

18 disclosure of the second category of documents. In

19 this very same order, the Trial Chamber stipulated that

20 the Prosecution could ask for some of its statements to

21 be redacted in order to protect the identities of some

22 of the witnesses involved, or at least to redact the

23 data that would allow anyone to find out about the

24 whereabouts of the witnesses, and it is up to the

25 pre-trial Judge to make sure that these statements are

Page 247

1 redacted up to a certain date.

2 So I will now turn to the Prosecution, to

3 you, Ms. Hollis, and I will ask you if you could tell

4 the Trial Chamber how many statements fall into that

5 particular category, i.e., how many statements do you

6 plan to have redacted, as is provided by the order I

7 have just mentioned.

8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution

9 regrets that it cannot give you a valid or complete

10 number today. The number of statements which we would

11 wish to redact would depend upon the inputs we receive

12 from the witnesses that we intend to call. We are in

13 the process of contacting potential witnesses, and part

14 of that process is to learn if they do wish such

15 protections. But we have not completed that process.

16 So it may very well be that a substantial number have

17 no redactions because the witnesses have no request for

18 them. It could be that most or all of the statements

19 would have redactions because the witnesses request

20 such. But, unfortunately, Your Honour, I'm not in a

21 position today to give you a number. I will tell you,

22 however, that we are in the process of putting together

23 our potential witness list and of contacting those

24 potential witnesses.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

Page 248

1 could you, however, maybe tell me now, if you can, of

2 course, how long you would need to meet my request?

3 How much time do you need to give me an idea of the

4 number of statements which might be redacted? And as a

5 matter of fact, is that something that you think you

6 might be able to tell me at some point soon?

7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, may I have a moment

8 to confer with my colleagues.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, the Prosecution

12 anticipates that in order to give you a comprehensive

13 response, we would have to contact something in the

14 order of 100 potential witnesses. We believe that in

15 order to be able to do that, we would need five to ten

16 working days to be sure we could contact the greatest

17 number possible.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You said

19 five to ten working days?

20 MS. HOLLIS: That's correct, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would two

22 weeks be enough for you?

23 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

25 Ms. Hollis. Which, of course -- I'm sorry. I will now

Page 249

1 turn to the legal officer of the Chamber,

2 Ms. Featherstone, and I will ask her to help me on the

3 particular deadlines that we need to meet.

4 [Judge Bennouna confers with legal

5 officer]

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We have

7 already settled on this particular deadline of two

8 weeks, so that brings us to the 11th of April once

9 again. On the 11th of April, I expect you to submit to

10 us this list of statements for which you ask that they

11 be redacted. Of course, these redacted statements

12 have, as their only aim, to avoid the identification of

13 witnesses' names or whereabouts. So your deadline is

14 the 11th of April.

15 Does the Defence have anything else to add on

16 this particular issue that I've just mentioned?

17 MR. VUCICEVIC: No, Your Honour, we don't, on

18 this issue.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

20 Mr. Petrovic.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I

22 would just like to point out that we need to work out

23 some more specific deadlines as per Article 62(A)

24 because it is very important for the Defence to have

25 these statements as soon as possible, the redacted

Page 250

1 statements, that is. Thank you.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I'm coming

3 to that Mr. Petrovic, but thank you for what you have

4 just said.

5 Ms. Hollis, maybe you can help us on this.

6 What is the deadline as far as the disclosure mentioned

7 by the Defence is concerned, disclosure of the

8 evidence, statements and so on?

9 MS. HOLLIS: If I may have another moment,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour, for the

14 opportunity to consult.

15 As I indicated, Your Honour, we have begun to

16 put together our potential witness list with a view

17 toward moving to 66(A)(ii) and to begin to disclose

18 statements of potential witnesses. We certainly had

19 intended, even before this Status Conference was set,

20 to begin that process in the immediate future. We

21 anticipate that we could provide the redacted or

22 unredacted version statements of potential witnesses

23 within one month to the Defence. This would be the

24 witnesses that we now see as witnesses in the case. Of

25 course, to the extent we don't have confirmation of

Page 251

1 witnesses' availability or willingness, we might add

2 witnesses later. But we believe in one month we could

3 have the bulk of that done.

4 Your Honour, just to be clear as to what our

5 position is, our position is as we have set it forward

6 in the protective measures motion, and that is we would

7 like delayed disclosure of the names of those witnesses

8 who seek protection. We would like delayed disclosure

9 of their names, not their statements.

10 As regards whereabouts, Your Honour, we would

11 also like delayed disclosure of whereabouts if we have

12 to disclose it at all. We feel very strongly that

13 disclosing the current whereabouts of witnesses puts

14 them in jeopardy of intimidation, harassment, threats,

15 harm, either through inadvertent, unauthorised

16 disclosure, or through, unfortunately, at some times,

17 willing and knowing unauthorised disclosure. So we are

18 very concerned about providing the whereabouts, the

19 current whereabouts of these witnesses. If we are

20 required to do so, Your Honour, we would wish to do so

21 as close in time to the beginning of trial as possible,

22 because the longer this information is available, the

23 more likely it is for some inadvertent disclosure, or

24 even a bad-faith disclosure. So as far as whereabouts

25 is concerned, that, we would not like to disclose until

Page 252

1 sometime very close to trial, if at all.

2 In regards of other identifying information,

3 as I indicated before, that will depend upon what the

4 witnesses tell us, and we will disclose information

5 about the witnesses when the witness tells us they have

6 no need for protective measures.

7 So in terms of providing the bulk of the

8 information, the witness statements, we believe that we

9 can do that in one month. In terms of compliance with

10 identification and whereabouts, that would be subject

11 to the remarks I just made, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

13 since you are on your feet, to sum it up, you are

14 asking for one month to disclose to the Defence the

15 unredacted statements. Have I understood you

16 correctly?

17 MS. HOLLIS: Unredacted statements for those

18 witnesses who do not seek protection; redacted

19 statements for those witnesses who do.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [No interpretation].

21 MS. HOLLIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're

22 not getting an interpretation. There seems to be a

23 problem with the English translation.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: I will try to speak English,

25 if we can save time. If I understand you correctly, I

Page 253

1 will have a list on the 11th of April, including, I

2 think, the declarations, to allow me to -- including

3 the declarations and the redactions you propose. It

4 will be on the 11th. And you propose a delay of one

5 month from the decision of the pre-trial Judge, I

6 think? Because the question I have, you say, "We need

7 a delay of one month." One month starting from what?

8 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we believe that

9 within one month of today, we could provide to the

10 Defence the redacted versions of statements where the

11 witnesses have requested protected measures, or (2) the

12 potential witnesses that we have not been able to

13 contact, so we don't know what their status is. In

14 addition to that, within that same month, we could

15 provide unredacted copies of witness statements of

16 those witnesses who have indicated they have no need

17 for protective measures. That's one month from today,

18 Your Honour.

19 Your Honour, in relation to the 11th of

20 April, we will be able to provide you with the number

21 of witnesses who would request redactions, but I'm not

22 at all confident we would actually be able to provide

23 you with redactions by that date. I believe it will

24 take us one month to complete that exercise. We could

25 provide you, of course, with the unredacted versions of

Page 254

1 the statements.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Fine. So if

3 I understood you well, within a month, we will be on --

4 it will be the 28th -- no, rather, today is the 28th of

5 March, so it will be the 28th of April. On that

6 particular date, you will disclose to the Defence all

7 the statements, be they redacted statements or

8 unredacted statements. You will also disclose on the

9 11th of April, you will give to me as a pre-trial

10 Judge, the list of the statements emanating from the

11 various witnesses, and also the list of the statements

12 for which you do not wish to have the data on the

13 witnesses names and whereabouts to be communicated.

14 And later on, you will also provide to me

15 these statements so that I may make sure that the

16 redactions -- it's much more difficult to say all this

17 in French than it is in English -- that these

18 redactions are under my supervision, under my control.

19 I have to comply with my duties; I have to make sure

20 that you have proceeded to the right redactions. You

21 have to be in conformity with the aim set by the Trial

22 Chamber. And when I receive this from you, I will make

23 a decision on the statements that have been redacted.

24 I will decide on a date at which the whole of the

25 non-redacted statement must be disclosed. I think

Page 255

1 you've asked between three weeks or a month before the

2 beginning of the trial. Is that right?

3 MS. HOLLIS: Yes.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Fine. So

5 this is where we stand.

6 Mr. Petrovic, I hope we've answered your

7 question. This is what the situation is in terms of

8 disclosure of statements by the Prosecution. Is there

9 anything else you would like to add? Time is running

10 out. Do you have something else you would need to

11 add?

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

13 Honour. Thank you.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I have a

15 question concerning the process of redaction of the

16 statements of the witnesses, because it is our position

17 that the whole process of the redaction, it's based on

18 the history of our compliance with this Trial Chamber's

19 orders on confidentiality. It is a misguided step that

20 is giving extra and unnecessary work to the Judge, and

21 the final effect of it is creating an unlevel playing

22 field, creating unfair -- it's going to lead to unfair

23 delay to Defence to prepare for the trial and to delay

24 a speedy trial. Indeed, it's going to prejudice the

25 defendant. And, Your Honour, I'm making these remarks

Page 256

1 with the highest regard for your office and, you know,

2 for the proceedings that we are facing.

3 If I may -- you know, I represented

4 Dr. Kovacevic in that before this Tribunal in 1998, and

5 we had been issued a confidential order on the witness

6 so the protection was the name Witness B. And I have

7 even indicated and presented in the Office of the

8 Prosecutor that perhaps even the fax communication to

9 the former Yugoslavia might be so sensitive, it might

10 be that faxes could be intercepted. And with such

11 issues, we have to be very careful. So to that effect,

12 I've dispatched an assistant of mine to take a trip

13 from here to Banja Luka, to take the name of such a

14 witness and give it to the person who was investigated

15 in the field. No leaks, nothing, because with our high

16 respect for your orders of confidentiality.

17 If we have an order of confidentiality, as

18 strict as you can impose, Your Honour. We could then

19 know about this witness. We can timely apply to the

20 Prosecutor so the mistake of the past, where we are

21 denied the chance to talk to a witness now who is in

22 the Prijedor area, will not repeat itself. And this is

23 going to help us, Your Honour.

24 And one thing, an additional in closing.

25 Thirty days to 21 days, to release the redactions, if

Page 257

1 you indeed decide to adopt the redactions as a matter

2 of protection, it is so short that we will not be able

3 to conduct any investigation at all. Because first,

4 our office is our man in Chicago, and Mr. Aaron is in

5 Los Angeles. Telephone communication with Bosnia is

6 impossible.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

8 Mr. Vucicevic, what is it you are asking for?

9 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm asking for 75 days, Your

10 Honour, because we have followed confidentiality orders

11 to the utmost, and we intend to do it in the future.

12 We only need a fair chance to defend this man, who most

13 of the Muslim inmates that I've talked to have said

14 that he is -- he has committed no wrong. But, Your

15 Honour, as long as I'm, you know, so moved at this

16 point, I do have to disclose --

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

18 Mr. Vucicevic, I have understood what you have just

19 told us, but you also know that the Rules of Procedure

20 and Evidence of this Tribunal have been set up over a

21 long period of time. There are a lot of decisions that

22 have been taken on these particular issues, and I'm

23 sure you know about them. So in good time, the Trial

24 Chamber will make its decision on this particular issue

25 that you've raised.

Page 258

1 Now, swiftly on to the next item on the

2 agenda, i.e., the other deadlines that have to be set

3 by the pre-trial Judge. We all share, I think, the

4 same priority, that is to say, that we want to see the

5 pre-trial procedures run through as smoothly as

6 possible because we all want the trial to start as

7 early as possible and to be a fair and just trial for

8 all persons involved.

9 The 24th of January, Ms. Hollis, the Trial

10 Chamber asked you to start working on the pre-trial

11 brief. I would now like to turn to you to ask you if

12 maybe you can help us see more clearly what the

13 deadlines are. How much time do you need to put this

14 document in order, to submit this pre-trial brief?

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your

17 Honour, the Prosecution is of the mind that it can have

18 the pre-trial brief ready by the 11th of April.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Ms. Hollis. Thank you, because it seems that you have

21 already started working on the pre-trial brief. It is

22 very helpful, because it means that we can work

23 swiftly. I understand, then, that the pre-trial brief

24 will be in our hands on the 11th of April.

25 The second question that I wish to put to

Page 259

1 you, Ms. Hollis, it is a question which is related to

2 another document which we need within the framework of

3 the pre-trial proceedings, i.e., the list of the

4 documents, the documentary evidence, and the list of

5 the witnesses. At some point, you mentioned some

6 60 witnesses coming to testify, and you said that you

7 would need about eight weeks, approximately, to hear

8 these witnesses. Could you also give us a date, a date

9 on which you would be able to communicate to us these

10 documents which we need to have before the trial can

11 start?

12 MS. HOLLIS: Just a moment, Your Honour.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, earlier, when I

15 spoke, I indicated that in order to fulfil some of our

16 other obligations, we would have to contact up to

17 100 witnesses. The Prosecution would prefer to be

18 limited by a time in which it can present its case,

19 rather than a number of witnesses, because depending

20 upon what measures are adopted, it may be that witness

21 testimony will move much more quickly. We believe that

22 an estimate of the number of witnesses we would require

23 for trial would be approximately 75 witnesses. There

24 could be some that could be taken by way of deposition,

25 there could be some that would be affidavit-type

Page 260

1 witnesses, but we believe that 75 would be an

2 appropriate number.

3 Within 30 days, as I indicated earlier, we

4 will have the witness statements of potential

5 witnesses. So at that time, we should have a list of

6 our potential witnesses to provide.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And what

8 about the documentary evidence, various evidence?

9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have already

10 provided to the Defence, by way of courier, a list of

11 documentary evidence and copies of the documentary

12 evidence. That is the core of the documentary evidence

13 that we will be using to determine our final

14 documentary evidence needs for the case. So, again, we

15 believe that within one month, we should be able to

16 have what is the most final documentary evidence list

17 we can have, realising that some things are uncertain

18 and some things may change.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Ms. Hollis.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Mr. President.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

24 Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just briefly I

Page 261

1 would like to say that in addition to the supporting

2 material of the indictment, the Defence of Damir Dosen

3 received no other document, not counting what I

4 received only today before the beginning of the Status

5 Conference. We discussed this briefly, and we would

6 like -- we will try to overcome this situation, but

7 until now, I have received nothing, no documents.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

9 can you help us on this as well?

10 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Your Honour, on the 22nd of February, the

12 documentary evidence and some other evidence was sent

13 by courier. It's the Prosecution's understanding that

14 there may be some difficulty with courier delivery to

15 the Defence counsel's office, and perhaps that is why

16 he has not received the evidence. There's not an easy

17 way to send the information to Serbia, but we did send

18 it by courier. But, again, we certainly do not doubt

19 him when he says he has not received it. We believe

20 perhaps that's a problem with the courier service to

21 his office.

22 Also, Your Honour, we have indicated to

23 Defence counsel that we are willing to provide him with

24 another copy of the documentary evidence.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may report

Page 262

1 that we have received the package.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a

3 second, Mr. Vucicevic. Okay. You have received these

4 documents. But it seems that there may be a

5 transmission problem as regards Mr. Petrovic.

6 Ms. Hollis, you tell me that you might be

7 able to give these documents to Mr. Petrovic now.

8 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. We've

9 indicated to Mr. Petrovic that we would be able to

10 provide him with another copy of the documents before

11 he leaves on Thursday.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think

13 that's the best way to go about this particular issue.

14 And thank you, Ms. Hollis, for your cooperation.

15 So Mr. Petrovic, I think that you simply have

16 to turn to the Prosecution's offices and ask for these

17 documents.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to

19 suggest, Your Honour, that the documents for the

20 Defence of Mr. Dosen be provided to the Defence here,

21 so that we do not depend on the courier service. Thank

22 you.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well

24 then. I'm sure that Ms. Hollis has carefully listened

25 to what you have just said.

Page 263

1 In fact, I think that these issues on

2 circulation of information, which are technical issues,

3 in a way, can be settled between yourself outside the

4 courtroom. Maybe we don't need to have the Trial

5 Chamber look into these technical questions. We are

6 not dealing with any particular legal issue here. So

7 that's all fine and well. This is, I think, settled.

8 Another issue; it seems that we will have a

9 synthesis on facts and on the -- who will be the

10 witnesses who will come to testify. It seems that we

11 will have this in good time, but my question is: Are

12 the two parties in agreement? Do they agree on the

13 fact that the Trial Chamber might also receive the

14 witnesses' statements, as has been done, I believe, in

15 other cases which have been heard by this Tribunal?

16 I'm turning, first of all, to the Defence

17 bench.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

20 Mr. Petrovic.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

22 the Defence of Mr. Dosen, of course, agrees with this,

23 and we have no comment on it. Thank you.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

25 Mr. Petrovic.

Page 264

1 Mr. Vucicevic.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: We have no objection.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Hollis,

4 I now turn to you.

5 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, at the risk of

6 incurring your wrath, the Prosecution did not intend

7 and does not intend to submit all of the witness

8 statements of its witnesses. We have developed a

9 procedure we would like to follow in this case, and

10 that is when the witnesses come to testify, we would

11 like to provide a summary of, if you will, background

12 evidence that does not deal directly with the camp

13 itself, and that would be marked into evidence as an

14 exhibit which the witness would adopt. Then the

15 remainder of the witness's testimony would be provided

16 directly, through question and answer.

17 Of course, to the extent the statement were

18 used by the Defence to impeach the witness and they

19 wish to offer it, that would be one means of

20 introducing it. But in terms of introducing the bulk

21 of the statements as evidence of the Prosecution, that

22 was not our intention, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

24 Ms. Hollis. That being the case, I remind you that you

25 have to give us syntheses that are as exhaustive as

Page 265

1 possible so that we are able to know, in all possible

2 details, what it is that the witness is about to tell

3 us, because this is what allows us to give to the

4 testimony its proper weight. We also make sure that

5 there will not be repetition, unnecessary repetition of

6 some facts or some issues.

7 There is something else we must deal with.

8 It is the points of agreement on facts and points of

9 law, try to see if the parties can agree on some points

10 of facts or on some points of law. Ideally, it would

11 be good that the parties could arrange for a meeting

12 between them, as is provided for by the Rules, a

13 meeting during which they would try to see if they can

14 reach an agreement on some points of facts and some

15 points of law. Also the Prosecution must comply with

16 its obligation, which is that it has to stipulate in a

17 particular document which are the points of facts and

18 the points of law which are in agreement and which are

19 those that are not in agreement with the Defence.

20 I will ask the parties to meet for that

21 particular purpose, so that Ms. Hollis, for the

22 Prosecutor, can give to the Trial Chamber this document

23 that I have just referred to.

24 How much time do the parties need? This

25 meeting should, of course, be organised as early as

Page 266

1 possible, and the main thing is to tell the pre-trial

2 Judge what it is you have agreed upon during this

3 meeting. So could I maybe give you a month? Would

4 that be enough for you to give me this document I

5 referred to earlier, a document which we very much need

6 to complete the pre-trial procedures, because this

7 document, after the meeting between the parties,

8 establishes which are the points of facts and the

9 points of law on which there is or not an agreement

10 between the parties.

11 Ms. Hollis.

12 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would suggest

13 that the Defence could not give any meaningful

14 assurances on this matter until they've had the benefit

15 of the disclosure that we have yet to make.

16 In addition to the witness statements that we

17 have discussed here today, the Prosecution does intend

18 to file a motion for adjudicated facts, for notice of

19 adjudicated facts. It would be necessary for the

20 Defence to have that motion before them as well.

21 Since we have set one month as a deadline for

22 disclosure of much of this information, the Prosecution

23 would suggest that there could really be no meaningful

24 exchange between the Prosecution and the Defence until

25 sometime after that, when they've had the opportunity

Page 267

1 to digest the information given. So perhaps in six

2 weeks they may be able to participate meaningfully in

3 such a discussion, but we don't believe that it would

4 be productive to have a meeting much before six weeks

5 from now, for example.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Mr. Vucicevic, I now turn to you. You have

8 heard what the Prosecution offers. It is true that it

9 does seem like a reasonable offer. Before any meeting,

10 you should both have the time to receive all the

11 information that you need. So that can be done within

12 a month. Then you need the time to study all this

13 information, and only then can you attend to this

14 meeting. It is only in these circumstances that the

15 meeting can be a productive one.

16 Ms. Hollis puts forward a deadline of six

17 weeks. What do you think about that?

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would agree. I think that

19 this is a very reasonable proposal by the OTP, and as

20 you indicated, Your Honour, we would need time to study

21 and constructively respond.

22 If I may add, Your Honour --

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So I take it

24 that a meeting should be held between you and the

25 Prosecution in about six weeks, starting now.

Page 268

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: In terms of scheduling, Your

2 Honour, if you are planning to have another Status

3 Conference, because we do reside and have offices on

4 two different continents, if you could combine those

5 two meetings, a hearing and a meeting in a -- closely

6 in proximity, within the same week, we would be glad to

7 attend both.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Mr. Petrovic, yes.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

11 the proposal of the Prosecution is very reasonable. On

12 receipt of most of the material and the pre-trial brief

13 by the Prosecution, and possibly a brief -- or a motion

14 or a notice of adjudicated facts, we would be able to

15 discuss these matters two or three weeks after

16 receiving these.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 So let me remind you what the decision is on this

19 particular issue. In agreement with both the

20 Prosecution and the Defence, the parties will meet

21 within six weeks, in order to meet with their

22 obligation or, rather, the Prosecution's obligation to

23 establish which are the points of law and the points of

24 fact that can be agreed upon. The parties will also

25 discuss the various points on which they can agree or

Page 269

1 the various points on which they cannot reach an

2 agreement. Then a document will be handed over to the

3 Judges of the Trial Chamber so that they can see what

4 the conclusion of the meeting is.

5 I thought that the number of witnesses would

6 be somewhat below 75, Ms. Hollis, to say the truth, in

7 view of the limited time frame and the limited

8 geographical zone in which the facts are set out in the

9 indictment, but it seems that there might be some

10 affidavit statements, and it seems also that you might

11 resort to the adjudicated facts procedure.

12 Ms. Hollis, could you tell us: Are you in a

13 position to tell us today, and maybe you can think of

14 what is happening within the framework of another case

15 which is currently heard by the Tribunal -- I'm

16 thinking about the Kvocka et al case -- do you think

17 that some of the witnesses that are testifying for this

18 case could be used for your case? Do you have some

19 witnesses testifying in this case which might come and

20 testify in our case? That's one question I wanted to

21 put to you.

22 The other question I have for you is the

23 following: You talked about adjudicated facts. Do you

24 think of using another case that has been heard by the

25 Tribunal, the Tadic case, to name it, as a reference in

Page 270

1 terms of adjudicated facts? Because some facts that

2 have been discussed in this previous case are also

3 mentioned in our case, because the facts and the events

4 took place in the same area. Are you planning on using

5 these facts within the general framework of the

6 adjudicated facts procedure?

7 These are the two questions that I put to

8 you, and are you in a position to answer these now?

9 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, as to your

10 observation about the number of witnesses, of course,

11 in the proceedings before the Tribunal, not only must

12 the Prosecution prove the underlying substantive crime,

13 such as murder, beatings, persecutions, but we must

14 also prove what we call the common elements of the

15 Article in question. That entails, very often, more

16 witnesses than would be required if we had only to

17 prove the underlying substantive offences.

18 The motion for adjudicated facts could deal

19 with what many of those witnesses would testify to. So

20 to the extent that motion is either agreed upon by the

21 accused and their counsel, or the Trial Chamber rules

22 to accept those facts anyway, then that could obviate

23 the need for some witnesses and reduce the number.

24 In terms of whether we would use the facts

25 from the Tadic appeal decision, yes, indeed, Your

Page 271

1 Honour, that is what we would look at, as well as some

2 facts that were decided in the Celebici and perhaps

3 some other cases.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And as for

5 the affidavits issue, what are your plans? I see that

6 it is translated by "affidavits". That's not exactly

7 what I mean. You know what I mean, this statement

8 taken into very particular circumstances.

9 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour. It's possible

10 that regarding witnesses who would testify only to

11 these common elements, that that testimony could be

12 introduced by way of deposition, which would expedite

13 the actual in-court proceedings for the trial. So that

14 is one possibility, and that is the type of witness the

15 Prosecution had in mind for deposition witnesses.

16 In addition to that, Your Honour, regarding

17 the affidavit witnesses that would be permitted under

18 Rule 94 ter, either affidavit or formal statement, that

19 is a Rule which has yet to be, perhaps, further

20 clarified in practice, but the Prosecution would think

21 that perhaps for some witnesses who are corroborating

22 others, that we would be able to find a means

23 acceptable to the Trial Chamber to provide that

24 evidence by way of a submission in keeping with

25 Rule 94 ter, whatever that would turn out to be.

Page 272

1 In regard to the Kvocka case, the Prosecution

2 trial team you see before you, Your Honour, is the

3 trial team in the Kvocka case as well, so I can speak

4 with some knowledge about that case. We do anticipate

5 there will be witnesses in that case that would also be

6 witnesses to events in Keraterm regarding these

7 accused, and we are contemplating submitting a proposal

8 as to a, perhaps, innovative means by which that

9 testimony could be taken. But we have not yet fully

10 formulated our view on that, so we will be submitting

11 something regarding those witnesses. But it is,

12 indeed, possible that they will be called to testify in

13 this case as well, in one form or another.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So that

15 would be by a means of deposition that is provided for

16 in Rule 71. This, of course, makes it possible for

17 witnesses not to have to come back a second time. It

18 is not necessary for them to come back and testify.

19 This, of course, allows us also to protect the rights

20 of the Defence, among which, of course, is the right to

21 cross-examine the witness, needless to say.

22 So I do hope that we will get from you,

23 Ms. Hollis, a document detailing what it is you plan to

24 do on this particular issue, and I do hope we can get

25 this document as quickly as possible. Can you help me

Page 273

1 on this?

2 MS. HOLLIS: Yes, Your Honour, we can do

3 that. I will tell you that certainly deposition would

4 be one way to deal with the matter. We were thinking

5 of something that is perhaps more innovative by way of

6 concurrent presentation of evidence, but we will make

7 that clearer in our submission.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Is there anything that the Defence counsels would like

10 to say on this particular matter?

11 Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. It seems,

13 you know, this, as the Prosecutor named it, the

14 concurrent presentation of the evidence, we are going

15 back to the joinder of the accused, to a degree.

16 However --

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Let me cut

18 you short, Mr. Vucicevic. I'm not asking you to argue

19 on this particular issue now. Let us wait for the

20 Prosecution's proposals. We are trying to study the

21 various things that are at our disposal, and in due

22 time, orally or in writing, you will have the

23 opportunity to submit your arguments. This is not the

24 time to do so. It is not the time to argue on a

25 particular procedure which none of us is familiar

Page 274

1 with. We don't know what the Prosecution's offer will

2 be.

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Excellent, Your Honour. I do

4 thank you for your comments. I just wanted to know

5 that I would respectfully ask you to always keep in

6 high regard defendant's right to cross-examine the

7 witnesses against him, no matter in what forum they are

8 presented, whether it would be in the deposition, some

9 joint presentation, or any other means that you deem

10 fit. But we would like that to be preserved.

11 A quick point --

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Whatever may

13 be the case, Mr. Vucicevic, this, of course, will be

14 done in full conformity with the Statute and with the

15 Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Everything that we do

16 here is done in full conformity with our Statute and

17 Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Just one sentence. My

19 concern concerning judicial notice, because I'm fully

20 aware of the fact findings and presentation of evidence

21 in the Tadic case. I viewed all the videotapes from

22 that trial. However, the Defence in that case did not

23 contend the issues of commonality in the background.

24 The theory of the Defence was a mistaken identity.

25 Therefore, even though the Trial Chamber has passed on

Page 275

1 those facts, but those facts, with a view of fair

2 cross-examination to the defendant would be wholly

3 inapplicable. Thank you.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] As for the

5 question of judicial notice, we will also make a

6 decision when we will have obtained a clear offer from

7 the Prosecution.

8 Yes, Mr. Petrovic.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

10 the Defence of the accused Damir Dosen is willing to

11 make every effort to expedite this trial, both by

12 deposition and in other ways, of course, provided that

13 testimony is not admitted unless we are able to

14 challenge it. Thank you.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 That's settled, I believe.

17 There is something else that I would like to

18 put to the Defence at this time. The Trial Chamber

19 would need to know how long, how much time you would

20 need. We also know that we want to move as forward as

21 quickly as possible. How much time you would need,

22 then, in order to be ready to start the trial. When

23 would you be able to start the trial?

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If you will

Page 276

1 allow me, Your Honour, to respond on behalf of

2 Mr. Damir Dosen's Defence, it is hard to say at this

3 moment how much time we will need, because we are at

4 the very beginning of disclosure of the material which

5 is to be used in these proceedings. So I'm afraid that

6 any estimate would not really be good.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Well, that

8 being the case, what I will ask you to do, then, is

9 that when you receive the documents, presumably you are

10 going to meet with the Prosecutor, as was said, within

11 six weeks, so I will ask you that during the next

12 Status Conference, the date of which will be set in a

13 minute, you give us an estimate at least of the time

14 that you need in order to be ready for trial. I think

15 that's the most reasonable and practical thing to do.

16 Please think about it, and I hope for an answer at the

17 next Status Conference, which would be set within the

18 next two months. So you have two months to think about

19 that, two months to come up with an estimate of the

20 time you need before you can be ready to start the

21 trial.

22 One last issue that I would wish to raise

23 before we completely run out of time -- and I thank the

24 interpreters for their patience and for their

25 endurance, thank you, because they are working extra

Page 277

1 time, they were supposed to work for only one hour and

2 a half, and we've been working for over two hours now,

3 but we are reaching the end of the Status Conference,

4 rest assured -- there is a motion that has been

5 submitted by Mr. Kolundzija on March 17th. I think

6 that the Prosecution has until the end of this month to

7 answer to that motion. The motion is related to

8 interference with witnesses. It is alleged that the

9 Prosecution has tried to interfere with witnesses.

10 This, of course, will be looked into by the Trial

11 Chamber, the three Judges of the Trial Chamber.

12 But I would like to turn to Mr. Kolundzija's

13 Defence counsel. Is the Defence alleging that the

14 Prosecution witnesses are, in fact, being interfered

15 with? Are we talking about Prosecution witnesses

16 here? Are these the witnesses that we're talking about

17 at the very centre of the Defence motion?

18 You have to stand up, sir, and could you

19 please switch on your microphone. Microphone, sir,

20 please.

21 MR. AARON: I beg your pardon, Your Honour.

22 The issue with that motion was interference with the

23 witnesses by Bosnian authorities, not by the

24 Prosecution.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well,

Page 278

1 then. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Aaron. So the

2 Bosnian authorities are alleged to interfere with

3 witnesses, so this has nothing to do with the

4 Prosecution interfering with them.

5 Do the Prosecution team members wish to say

6 anything on this particular issue?

7 MS. HOLLIS: Your Honour, we're going to

8 submit a written response to this motion which, I

9 believe, is a motion that -- is a motion for discovery

10 and uses examples of alleged torture as a reason for

11 the remedies that are sought, and we will respond to

12 that motion.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Ms. Hollis.

15 Unless either of the parties wishes to raise

16 other issues, because Status Conferences are

17 specifically designed for that, unless that is the

18 case, I will go on to the last item on the agenda,

19 i.e., the state of mind and the physical state of the

20 accused.

21 I now turn to the Defence. Mr. Petrovic,

22 Mr. Vucicevic, is there anything you would like to say

23 on this particular issue? Or is there any other issue

24 that you would wish to raise, other than the question

25 of the state of mind and the physical state of the

Page 279

1 accused? Is there something you would wish to raise on

2 procedural matters, Mr. Petrovic?

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Mr. Vucicevic, what about you?

7 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we don't have

8 anything to raise concerning the state of mind and

9 treatment of --

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no,

11 no --

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: As far as my client.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No,

14 Mr. Vucicevic. Is there something else you would like

15 to talk about from a procedural point of view, anything

16 about the pre-trial proceedings, for example, that you

17 would wish to discuss?

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour. There

19 was -- when you requested of the Office of the

20 Prosecutor to submit all the witness statements, Madam

21 Hollis indicated that there would be a synopsis on the

22 background that is going to be attached to the witness

23 statements. If any of the documentation that is going

24 to be -- actually, any and all documentation that is

25 going to be submitted to the Trial Chamber, we would

Page 280

1 like to receive the same copies so that we could be

2 adequately prepared. Point number 1.

3 Point number 2: In the mode of the

4 presentation of evidence, Madam Hollis indicated that

5 there is going to be a statement prepared to which a

6 witness is going to ask to agree before presenting his

7 evidence. I would deem that to be an infringement of

8 the defendant's right to confront the accuser against

9 him, because we will not be able to cross-examine those

10 pieces of papers. If they are facts, the witnesses

11 should testify. If not -- thank you.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

13 Mr. Vucicevic, Ms. Hollis relies on legal procedures.

14 The witnesses' statements are taken by the

15 Prosecution. In themselves, they are not considered as

16 evidence. They just make it possible for the

17 Prosecution to prepare itself to examine the witness.

18 So Ms. Hollis is not making up anything.

19 Ms. Hollis, is there anything you would wish

20 to discuss, from a procedural point of view, before I

21 close this part of the Status Conference?

22 MS. HOLLIS: No, Your Honour, and I don't

23 want to try your patience, but I do need to clarify

24 Mr. Vucicevic's understanding of what I attempted to

25 say earlier. The Prosecution does not intend to submit

Page 281

1 witness statements, nor does it intend to submit a

2 synopsis attached to these witness statements, unless

3 something occurs during the trial that would lead us to

4 submit them in some way as evidence. If we did so, of

5 course the Defence would receive whatever we were to

6 provide to the Trial Chamber as evidence. So his

7 understanding of what I attempted to say earlier is

8 incorrect, and I apologise if I was not clear.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MS. HOLLIS: Thank you, Your Honour. So that

11 would clarify that.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: This does clarify the point.

14 Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 We will now go into private session. Closed session.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 282













13 pages 282-284 redacted private session









22 --- Whereupon the Status Conference

23 adjourned at 5.05 p.m.