Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1202

1 Wednesday, 28 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We continue with the cross-examination by

7 Mr. Vucicevic.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic: [Continued]

12 Q. Witness D, we have stopped yesterday the -- when you took the

13 uniform and you were sent to the -- your first assignment. Could you tell

14 us where was that assignment?

15 A. My first assignment was at the checkpoint at the railway station.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that checkpoint?

17 A. My shift lasted eight hours.

18 Q. How long did you stay as reserve policeman in Ljubija? From 29th

19 when did your duties cease to exist?

20 A. About one month, I don't know. I don't recall exactly.

21 Q. How many checkpoints were on the jurisdiction of Ljubija police

22 station?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. How many checkpoints did you serve on?

25 A. Always one and the same.

Page 1203

1 Q. So on April 30th you were on that one? On May 1st you were on

2 that one, weren't you?

3 A. Not on the 30th of April. Yes on May 1.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... on that checkpoint on May

5 1st?

6 A. The second shift.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, already I am seeing now for the

8 second time on the transcript "previous translation continues", which

9 means that you have asked a question before the translation of the answer

10 from the witness has been completed. So please, again, I ask that you

11 observe the pause.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 A. In the evening -- that is, in the morning.

16 Q. Was that on the -- was that on the evening on May 1st or the

17 morning of May 2nd?

18 A. Morning of the 1st of May.

19 Q. What did he tell you during that meeting and what did you tell

20 him?

21 A. He told me that I should not leave the house until he gets there.

22 Q. You have testified already that he had arrived shortly thereafter;

23 isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I will ask you the question again: Once you met him, what did he

Page 1204

1 tell you and what did you tell him?

2 A. He told me that the Serbs had taken over the power, that the

3 Muslim and Croat policemen were sent home, that they were relieved of

4 duty. And I don't recall telling him anything, but we went together to

5 the Ljubija police station.

6 Q. [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 A. No. At Ljubija.

9 Q. When did he sign that loyalty in Ljubija?

10 A. The last days of May or the first few days of June.

11 Q. What did he do from May 1st until the end of May, beginning of

12 June?

13 A. He regularly discharged his duties like other police officers.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Ljubija?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So at that time, on May 1st, through the end of May or beginning

17 of June, it is fair to state that Serbs, Serb authorities, have not taken

18 control of police station in Ljubija?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Have you gone -- from April 29th to 22nd of May, have you gone at

21 all from Ljubija to Prijedor?

22 A. I don't recall exactly. As a civilian, yes. As a policeman, no.

23 Q. Did you drive your own car or you rode with somebody else?

24 A. On one occasion in someone else's car.

25 Q. And getting into the Prijedor, you had to pass through Tukovi?

Page 1205

1 A. Right.

2 Q. Notice any checkpoints in Tukovi?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you stopped at that checkpoint in Tukovi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what was the procedure at that checkpoint once you were

7 stopped?

8 A. They checked our documents and searched the car to -- for

9 weapons.

10 Q. Did you recognise any of the men manning that checkpoint?

11 A. Yes, Aziz Aliskovic.

12 Q. So that was a checkpoint that was on the jurisdiction of Ljubija

13 police station, wasn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But before you came to Tukovi, you had to pass through Hambarine;

16 isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And there was also a checkpoint in Hambarine, wasn't there?

19 A. Below Hambarine, closer to Ljubija.

20 Q. What was the distance between checkpoints in Hambarine and

21 Tukovi?

22 A. Two kilometres.

23 Q. You testified yesterday that Mr. Aliskovic was in charge of that

24 checkpoint too. You testified that, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1206

1 Q. Have you seen when you were stopped in Hambarine on any occasion

2 that Mr. Aliskovic was there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you recognised any other men at checkpoint in Hambarine?

5 A. Yes. I knew them, but I don't recall their names.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I'm going to ask you the

7 question, the question about their names. Have you noticed if there were

8 any Serbs among men on checkpoint in Hambarine?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So there were no Serbs?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And there were no Serbs on checkpoint in Tukovi?

13 A. Yes. Let's distinguish. The checkpoint at Tukovi and the

14 checkpoint below Hambarine were two separate check points.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

16 A. And there was a checkpoint before Hambarine.

17 Q. And just to --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel, please.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Microphone, Mr. Vucicevic.


21 Q. Just to make sure, you have also said a couple of minutes ago,

22 that there was about one kilometre distance between those two

23 checkpoints?

24 A. The checkpoint below Hambarine and the checkpoint before

25 Hambarine, on the other side, was one to two kilometres. The checkpoint

Page 1207

1 below Hambarine on the other side, between Tukovi, was also about two

2 kilometres.

3 Q. Were those men on all of these three checkpoints that you had to

4 pass through uniformed, or how were they dressed?

5 A. At that time there were a number of people wearing different

6 uniforms.

7 Q. What kind of uniforms did they have, if you could enlighten the

8 court?

9 A. Military, police, and civilian.

10 Q. When you said "military," what -- which military did they belong

11 to? Which military did this men belong to?

12 A. At that time, it was already the Serb military, and I concluded

13 that by the insignia on the uniforms.

14 Q. Let me just make sure that we are -- I want to assist you here.

15 You said earlier there were no men of Serb ethnicity to those -- at those

16 checkpoints. And now you're saying there were men in various uniforms and

17 those ones in military uniforms belonged to the Serbian army. That's a

18 little bit of a contradiction there. Would you clarify that?

19 A. Yes. The checkpoint below Hambarine, that means in the direction

20 Ljubija-Prijedor which was manned by the Serb police and the Serb

21 military. From that checkpoint, 1 to 2 kilometres across the Hambarine in

22 the direction of Prijedor was a checkpoint manned by the police. From

23 that checkpoint in the direction of Prijedor, there was a checkpoint at

24 Tukovi that was manned by the Serb police and the Serb military. And what

25 I forgot to say that between the two checkpoints, that is the checkpoint

Page 1208

1 below Hambarine, there was police and military that belonged to the TO.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, with your permission, I think there

3 was so many checkpoints here and I have been there so many times, and I'm

4 just losing witness, you know, where those checkpoints are. But this is

5 very important. And with your permission, I would like to give him a map

6 so he can just indicate on the map where those checkpoints were and who

7 was where.


9 MR. VUCICEVIC: If I may approach the ELMO so that I can indicate

10 the road that he is talking to so that he easily could point them out.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.


13 Q. [Interpretation] This is a much larger scale than the rest;

14 Ljubija, Donja Ljubija. No this is Donja, and this is Gornja, upper and

15 lower Ljubija.

16 A. In this map I really cannot see anything.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] [In English]... everything here,

18 maybe I am just showing to you to --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

20 Hold on a minute, Mr. Vucicevic. There is an objection.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, we object. It appears as though

22 counsel for Mr. Kolundzija may have crossed the line into testifying

23 himself at this point.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are very close to that, Mr. Vucicevic.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I will show you, this is a map and

Page 1209

1 map is, on its face, neutral. Map does indicate it's bigger man than the

2 learned counsel has presented. There is all these geographic entities on

3 this map. I was barely showing the witness the road on that map so he can

4 point to assist the Court. You know, but witness was looking here and he

5 was looking on the ELMO and I said it's not on this map. Now it's on the

6 map.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you cannot give the evidence. The

8 evidence must come from the witness.

9 MR. VUCICEVIC: Well, if the witness, you know --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ask the witness the questions.


12 Q. Sir, could you see on this map now --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please use the microphone?


15 Q. -- Donja Ljubija, Gornja Ljubija --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, you have to go back because the

17 interpreters are not getting your questions, and bear in mind that we are

18 not trained in cartography.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, neither am I.


21 A. Your Honours, I can barely see this map, and the lighting is a

22 problem. But since I know the road quite well, that is, the one between

23 Donja Ljubija and Prijedor, I will repeat what I have stated.

24 My checkpoint was at the railroad station of Donja Ljubija, at the

25 bus station, that is. The next checkpoint was below Hambarine about 4 or

Page 1210

1 5 kilometres from the point where I was on duty. The next checkpoint on

2 the far side of Hambarine was about 1 to 2 kilometres farther away, and

3 one after that was in the direction of Prijedor at Tukovi, 3 to 4

4 kilometres away from the one below Hambarine, or about 7 to 8 kilometres

5 from the checkpoint where I was.


7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... into the reserve police,

8 weren't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As a reserve policeman, you had to respond to emergencies; wasn't

11 that part of your duties?

12 A. Probably yes, but we didn't have that.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues]... without being able to respond,

14 you had to at least have minimal ability to read the maps of your own

15 town, weren't you?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, again, we are having on the

17 transcript "previous translation continues" in respect of the last two

18 questions, which means that you are asking your question before the

19 translation of the witness' answer has been completed. There will come a

20 time when the Court's patience will be worn, and you must try to cooperate

21 because we are not getting the translation of your questions. So we are

22 not getting the evidence. That's what it really means.

23 Are you now wearing the earphones?

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, I am.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, please wait for the translation of the

Page 1211

1 answers. Yes, continue.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Would, please, Court direct the witness to answer

3 the question.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: What was the question, because the question was

5 not complete. Just rephrase it.


7 Q. Sir, you were admitted into the reserve police and you had to

8 respond to the emergencies, and the part of those minimum abilities you

9 had at least to be in a position to read the map of your community,

10 weren't you?

11 A. Sir, I know the map very well. I did not say that I was unable to

12 read it, I just said that I could not see it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let's move on.


15 Q. You said that there were -- at some checkpoints, there were

16 military men who were Serbs, and at other checkpoints, there were military

17 men who were non-Serbs. Were those men, Serbs and non-Serbs, mixed on any

18 of those checkpoints?

19 A. Yes, at my checkpoint.

20 Q. But that was not -- your checkpoint was not the one on the road

21 from Hambarine to Tukovi that I was addressing, wasn't it?

22 A. No, but we also had mentioned my checkpoint.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... brings me to another point.

24 Do you know of any Serbs who have responded to mobilisation to JNA --

25 strike it. Do you know any Muslims who responded to mobilisation in

Page 1212












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Page 1213

1 September of 1991?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. A lot of them responded, wasn't it true?

4 A. Not that many. There were some.

5 Q. And some of them went to serve in Croatia, wasn't that correct?

6 A. How do you mean to serve in Croatia?

7 Q. Serve their assignment in Croatia, if you know.

8 A. At that time one could not go to Croatia.

9 Q. I'm referring to September of 1991.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. What is true -- just to correct the record, is it true that some

12 Muslims who put on the JNA uniforms went to serve in Croatia? Is that

13 answer -- what is your answer to that question?

14 A. You mean as military personnel, as soldiers to go to Croatia, to

15 the front line?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And some of them had military ranks, lieutenants, captains?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And some of them stayed throughout the years of warfare in Bosnia,

21 later in army of Republika Srpska, didn't they?

22 A. To my knowledge, all those who responded, the majority that is,

23 who at that time went to the front, after the return, did not go there any

24 more. I know officers, captains, reserve -- from the reserve force who,

25 after their return, took off their uniform and returned it -- that is, who

Page 1214

1 no longer went to the front.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... one or two or three that

3 didn't do it but stayed all the way until Dayton agreement?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So isn't it fair to say that on April 30th, that Serb authorities

6 took over the power in town of Prijedor only, while in town of Ljubija,

7 they didn't take over the power?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Isn't it fair to say that throughout month of May, there was a

10 demarcation line or, you know, territory -- was known who controls which

11 territory, which was marked by different checkpoints?

12 A. Approximately except for Ljubija, that is the settlement of

13 Ljubija itself, not counting the surrounding settlements.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... a few Serbian villages which

15 are located southwest or west from Ljubija?

16 A. Whether they were to the south or the southwest, I wouldn't know

17 but I can give you some villages such as Lyeskari, Miska Glava, those two

18 localities.

19 Q. You testified yesterday, you said that late Drago Tokmadzic was

20 from Lyeskari, wasn't he?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And that was a Serbian village?

23 A. Kalajevo is right next to Lyeskari, or rather it is 100 metres

24 distance, yes, that's quite right.

25 Q. And before the war everybody knew that, including yourself, that

Page 1215

1 Mr. Tokmadzic was a man from the mixed marriage? His mother was Serbian

2 and his father was Croat; wasn't that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But between Ljubija and Prijedor, there is village of Hambarine?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you already testified that those checkpoints that were on the

7 line which was abutting the Serb-controlled territory were the checkpoints

8 manned only by non-Serbs, that's correct? You already said it.

9 A. It is below Hambarine.

10 Q. You have also testified yesterday there was no incidents, no

11 shooting, from either side, from April 30th through May 22nd; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Until the shelling of Hambarine, that's right, but the date, I

14 don't remember.

15 Q. You are a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and being a citizen,

16 you have heard that Bosnia and Herzegovina were recognised by certain

17 countries in the -- in April of 1992. Do you remember the date?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Jog your memory if I suggest it was on April 6, 1992?

20 A. Possibly. I don't know.

21 Q. Were they any military activities and casualties between the

22 various ethnic groups in Bosnia from April 6th through April 30th? And

23 I'm referring to any other municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Those days, have you read newspapers?

Page 1216

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which newspapers have you read?

3 A. Don't remember.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

5 A. May have.

6 Q. But you don't recall whether you ever, from April 6th through

7 April 30th, whether you ever in those days took the Kozarski Vyesnik in

8 your hands?

9 A. No, I do not remember.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... from Sarajevo? It was the

11 major daily paper from the whole state.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution will object on

14 relevance grounds. We are prepared to give the Defence counsel some

15 leeway on cross-examination, but we fail to see how this has any relevance

16 with respect to the specific charges for which Mr. Kolundzija is charged

17 with respect to the Keraterm camp.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What's the relevance?

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: I can't help, Your Honour, when the shoe is on the

20 other foot, everything seems so different. The Prosecutor has alleged

21 there was a state of peacefulness in Bosnia and Herzegovina before the

22 aggression of the Serbs -- of Serb authorities happened in the

23 municipality of Prijedor on April 30th. I'm just testing that. That is

24 in the indictment and that is in their Pre-Trial brief, and I'm just

25 testing that premise. It's background, Your Honours. I would be happy

Page 1217

1 if --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are consulting. The Chamber is consulting.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic, the Chamber agrees it is of

5 some relevance to the case, but you are not to belabour the point. I mean

6 you have been cross-examining now for over an hour. So will you please

7 proceed and deal with this point fairly quickly.

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I can lead on these because this is a

9 cross, after all.

10 Q. Witness, have you heard about the clashes, military clashes at

11 Ravno?

12 A. No. Not at that time. Now I know.

13 Q. In April of 1992 you never heard of them?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... at Bosanski Brod?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Military clashes in Bijeljina?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I'm directing your attention now to the time while you were a

20 policeman, and that's May. You heard about military clashes in Sarajevo

21 on 3rd of May?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You heard of military clashes in Tuzla on 13th or --

24 A. No.

25 Q. -- 14th of May?

Page 1218

1 A. No.

2 Q. So it is fair to say there were military activities in all other

3 areas of Bosnia by that time?

4 A. Possibly.

5 Q. And isn't it fair to say that Prijedor was the centre of

6 Yugoslavianism which was depicted by the famous slogan "Brotherhood and

7 Unity" in the communist times?

8 A. Yes, you could say so.

9 Q. And perhaps that is the reason why you were not interested what

10 was going on in the other areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina, because you

11 couldn't believe that ever the shooting is going to take place in

12 Prijedor?

13 A. It is true that I could not believe it.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

15 A. Yes.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So the idea of brotherhood and unity did not break up completely,

22 but that part of unity broke up, but brotherhood, perhaps some people in

23 your community thought that Serbs and Muslims could still continue to be

24 brethren.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, that's -- it seems more a matter

Page 1219

1 of comment.

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, he has testified yesterday that there

3 was a gentleman who was a military officer, police officer, that brought

4 him food to Keraterm. And how am I going to, you know, going to get some

5 leeway please to relate it, to put it in right perspective. Because it

6 is -- witness here who can put it in right perspective. He lived there.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, but the question is so long that I

8 believe the witness will have difficulty understanding it.

9 A. I understood the question, and I can answer it. At that time it

10 required considerable courage to refuse to sign that loyalty. Had I had

11 the choice, I would have signed it too, but I never had that choice, which

12 does not mean that all those who signed it were not, afterwards, thrown

13 out and removed and dismissed from that same Serb police in Ljubija.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that were in the military did

15 not have that fate. That didn't happen to them. They stayed in the

16 military throughout; isn't that correct?

17 A. You will have to ask Mehmed Captain First Class from Donja Ljubija

18 about that.

19 Q. Just with due respect, the Defence will bring the captain to

20 testify about this.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Let me just look at my notes, Your Honour.

22 Q. Did you have any desires to become a policeman while you -- when

23 you were a young man?

24 A. Perhaps I did.

25 Q. Did you ever made ahead -- went ahead and made application to the

Page 1220

1 police station to accept you as a policeman prior to this what had

2 happened prior to the outbreak of war?

3 A. Yes, when I finished doing my army service.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... what had happened with your

5 application?

6 A. I don't know. I simply handed it over. That was it.

7 Q. Was that before or after you went to vocational school to become

8 electrician?

9 A. When I finished my army service in 1984, maybe 1985.

10 Q. Witness, I would like to direct you to the question: When did you

11 finish your vocational school to become an electrician?

12 A. In 1982, 1983 is when I completed the training. I know what you

13 want to ask me. You can go to do your military service until the age of

14 27, and you could go to a six-month course and then become a regular

15 policeman.

16 Q. This is a third time I'm coming to this question: When did you

17 become an electrician?

18 A. In 1982-1983.

19 Q. When you applied to be a policeman, was that your first choice?

20 A. I mentioned 1984 to 1985.

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to direct the

22 witness to answer the question. The question was rather simple.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question was: "When you applied to be a

24 policeman, was that your first choice?" What's your answer to that?

25 A. No, Your Honours. My first choice was the business, the art of

Page 1221

1 electrician. I said that in 1982-1983 --

2 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour -- it's in the record. We have to

3 move on.

4 Q. When -- while being interested to become a policeman, have you

5 heard that police in those days were beating people while in their

6 custody?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So when did you hear the phrase that in order to be admitted for

9 the medical treatment that you have to say instead, "Police had beaten me

10 up," instead, "I fell off the truck," or "... fell from the car." When

11 did you hear that phrase?

12 A. I concluded when in the camp itself that it was better to say that

13 you'd fallen off a vehicle rather than you had been beaten. And I also

14 heard from other inmates that that was better than -- a better answer than

15 the other one.

16 Q. When you were in the camp, there were no trucks, there were no

17 cars there, were they?

18 A. But it wasn't only when you had to go to the hospital, it was for

19 all occasions. If a guard asked what was the matter with you, it was much

20 better to say that you'd fallen than that you'd been beaten.

21 Q. You used the word "fallen." When you testified yesterday you said

22 when you were taken out, first you said you were hit and you fell, and in

23 cross-examination, you said that you lay down, that you didn't fall. So

24 which is true? Or explain what's the difference between laying down and

25 falling?

Page 1222

1 A. Well, to lie down, you have to fall down first. Depends on the

2 situation. If one goes to bed, then one lies down of his own will, but if

3 on such an occasion, one lies down to the ground, then it must mean that

4 he fell down. One can also fall down of his own will, that is lie down of

5 his own will, but if one is first hit, then he will fall and then he will

6 lie down. But I didn't lie down in the sense that you mean. I crouched.

7 Rather, I lent -- I leaned against a wall to protect at least one side of

8 my body.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, please move on.

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I think this is a very important

11 point because the witness is using inconsistencies in his testimony which

12 do not have any explanation so far. I think you know that it's him to

13 explaining how did it all happen. It's very important because it bears on

14 credibility of entire testimony.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will assess the credibility.


17 Q. You were hit by Dusan Knezevic, Duca. How tall was he when he was

18 standing in front of you?

19 A. He stood underneath. That is, I was on the threshold of the door

20 at the time when he hit me. He could be, I should say, one metre 80, one

21 metre 90, give or take a few.

22 Q. He is up at one metre 90? Knezevic is one metre 90?

23 A. No, not that tall.

24 Q. Could it be that he is 175?

25 A. Perhaps. I didn't measure him.

Page 1223












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Page 1224

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... numbers are not important.

2 The important is when he stood below --

3 A. Why do you ask me?

4 Q. When he stood below you, how far up to you did he come here? You

5 can just show. Was he up to your chin, up to your chest here? How high

6 was he up to you?

7 A. Up to my chest.

8 Q. Okay. So when he took the baton to hit you, which hand did he

9 hold that baton in?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. And could you just point exactly what part of the head did he hit

12 with -- did he hit you on, with one finger, please?

13 A. [Indicates].

14 Q. So the baton went, as you showed, horizontally, didn't it?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. So that means the hit was hard indeed, wasn't it?

17 A. What that means, sir, is that he beat me good, that I was all

18 battered up. And I am not the only one who speaks about that. Quite a

19 number of people who were in the same room with me know about that. And I

20 cannot tell you exactly, but I can describe it, if the Honourable Court

21 permits me to do so.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... standing here and in deep

23 sympathy what had happened to you. I think any --

24 A. No. If you sympathise with me, you would have spared me such

25 questions.

Page 1225

1 Q. I'm merely trying to establish what had happened, because at the

2 time, sir, even being a witness or perhaps being innocently accused, it is

3 a function of this court to examine the facts, and facts are words which

4 are logically connected, and when you testify, with all sympathy to all

5 what you went through, it is still important to remember --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, will you please spare us the

7 speech and continue with your cross-examination? And try to bring it to a

8 close as quickly as possible.


10 Q. So you -- if you don't remember how he hit you, you don't remember

11 how you fell down, do you?

12 A. I do remember it well, how he hit me and how I fell.

13 Q. Were you standing up when he hit you? Or you were beginning to

14 already lay down? You were in the process of kind of lowering yourself

15 down? In which position, standing up or you are slowly going down as he

16 was taking a swing at you?

17 A. Your Honours, may I show it?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.

19 A. [Witness stands up] When we were called out, or rather when we

20 were told that four men should come out --

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, the witness should show, not just

22 give a speech.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but he has to be able to explain what he's

24 showing.

25 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 1226

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: For it to be intelligible.

2 A. I was standing in the doorway. Duca was in front of me. He hit

3 me with his baton here. I turned and fell down next to the open door and

4 I leaned against a wall and I was in this position, and he then continued

5 to hit me on the head. From time to time I would manage to shield my head

6 with my hands but then he would beat me here. And from different sides,

7 others approached and kicked me in the head, around my kidneys, in the

8 stomach, on the chest. And I had a feeling that Duca was talking to

9 someone and beating me with his baton on the head as I was -- as I went

10 into the crouching position and then, as I -- and then as I lay down on

11 the ground.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's a visual and dramatic explanation. Let us

13 see whether we can conclude this part of the evidence now.


15 Q. How big was -- you're a big man.

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: Could we just have a closed session?

17 A. Correct.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: Or a private session?


20 MR. VUCICEVIC: Only for one minute, quickly.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1227

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

15 Re-examination, Mr. Mundis?

16 MR. MUNDIS: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

18 Q. Witness D, in response to questions from Mr. Rodic, the Defence

19 counsel for Dosen, you indicated that both Damir Dosen and his brother

20 were known by the nickname of Kajin. Do you recall testifying that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, just to clarify, when you were at Keraterm, you testified

23 that Kajin was a shift commander; is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Which one of the Dosen brothers were you referring to as the shift

Page 1228

1 commander?

2 A. Damir.

3 Q. And is that the person that you saw in the courtroom and

4 identified yesterday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, the time when you were being beaten and you called out for

7 assistance, your testimony was that you called to Pilip and Kajin to come

8 to your assistance. Do you remember testifying about that?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And the person that you testified came to your assistance was, in

11 fact, Kajin; is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Which Kajin were you referring to who came to your assistance at

14 that time?

15 A. I was referring to Damir.

16 Q. And that's also the person that you identified and recognised in

17 the courtroom?

18 A. Correct.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Witness D. The Prosecution has no further

20 questions.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness D, that concludes your testimony. You

22 are released.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes Mr. Ryneveld?

Page 1229

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. Before calling the next

2 witness, could we go into private session very briefly? Because I'm going

3 to be making an application for this witness to be given protective

4 measures even though he has not been part of the application for

5 protective measures earlier. The reasons therefore unfortunately will

6 have to be in private session, if we may.


8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1230













13 Page 1230 redacted private session.













Page 1231

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

Page 1232

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Just one other comment, if I may, and that is that

2 it may be that counsel may want to refer to other witnesses on the list by

3 name. It's the familial relationship that causes the damage. In other

4 words, we haven't edited out the names of people, because the names of

5 people mean nothing unless people know that certain of those names people

6 are, in fact, witnesses here. So if reference to their familial status

7 could be avoided in the course of reference to them, I believe that many

8 of the redactions wouldn't be necessary and we may also be able to conduct

9 more of these in open session.


11 MR. RYNEVELD: Is Witness E being brought in? Thank you.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Mr. Usher, could you please show the witness a

19 document that is now being handed to you.

20 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

21 Q. First of all, Witness, I'd like you to look at that piece of

22 paper. Do you see your name -- don't tell us what it is -- but do you see

23 your name on that piece of paper and your birth date?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. And you see that behind your name and birth date that you

Page 1233

1 will be referred to as Witness E; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Might this be marked as the next exhibit, please,

4 Your Honours.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 15.


7 Q. Now, Witness E, I understand, sir, that you are of Muslim

8 ethnicity, and you were born at a small village near Sarajevo; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. While you were still very young, I understand you and your parents

12 moved to Prijedor; is that also correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You completed your schooling, and after your schooling you worked

15 for about four years in a furniture shop in Prijedor; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you did your compulsory military service with the JNA, and you

18 were discharged from that on the 5th of September when you became a member

19 of the reserve until 1983; is that correct?

20 A. Just a small correction regarding the date. It's 5th September.

21 The rest is correct.

22 Q. Thank you. I thought I had said that. But until the 5th of

23 September 1979. And then in 1983, because of an injury to your arm, you

24 were declared incapable of further military service and you were no longer

25 in the reserve as well; is that correct?

Page 1234












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1235

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. I understand, sir, you went to work as a welder in Croatia for a

3 number of years until 1991 and then you returned to Prijedor where you

4 were on the 1st of May when something happened in 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. On the 1st of May 1992, sir, I understand that you were in

7 Prijedor when the Serb forces took over control of that town; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you knew that the police station and all the important

11 buildings, including the railway station and government buildings had been

12 taken over by the Serbs?

13 A. Yes, that was announced on the radio.

14 Q. And do I understand, sir, that when that was completed, there

15 would be a Serbian flag flying over the building as well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you say you heard it on the radio. Was it also on

18 television?

19 A. We could rarely watch television. There was -- there were power

20 outages, but we could transistor radios when we had batteries.

21 Q. Now, prior to the takeover, sir, is it fair to say that the

22 ethnically mixed community would live peaceably side by side?

23 A. Yes, at first.

24 Q. And there were many mixed marriages?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1236

1 Q. I understand that changed after the takeover; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, sir, about a month later, towards the end of May 1992, I

4 understand that you and your brother were taken into custody; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the people that took you into custody were dressed in uniform?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of -- did you recognise any of the people that took you

10 into custody?

11 A. I did not know them.

12 Q. Did you know what ethnicity they were?

13 MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection to the question. It calls for

14 speculation. If he didn't know them, he wouldn't know their ethnicity.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: I'll move on.



18 Q. Sir, you've told us about listening to the radio. Did you receive

19 any instructions via the radio announcement as to a manner in which one

20 could show loyalty to the Serbs?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was that?

23 A. They told us on the radio that we should wear a white armband

24 around our left arm and that would show the loyalty to the Serbs.

25 Q. When you were being arrested, sir, could you tell whether you and

Page 1237

1 your brother were the only people being arrested or was it happening to

2 neighbours as well?

3 A. They gathered us all, all of us who were there. They said that we

4 should take our jackets with us, that we would be there for questioning

5 for two or three days and then we would come back.

6 Q. And could you see what was happening to some of your neighbours as

7 they were being arrested?

8 A. I don't understand the question. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. All right. After you were arrested, were you transported

10 somewhere, and if so, on what?

11 A. They gathered us from your homes and made us run down, followed by

12 these transporters, to the buses. When we came to Osmana Dzafica,

13 soldiers said, "Pull out everything you have in your pockets, as well as

14 watches and jewellery and money," and some of them were hit there. And we

15 were transported -- they put us in buses, and that is how they transported

16 us to the barracks.

17 Q. Did anything happen to you personally as you were being placed on

18 the bus?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was that?

21 A. One of them, a soldier, had a hunting rifle. He said, "Open your

22 mouth." I did. And he put the barrel in my mouth and he pulled the

23 trigger, but the -- it was empty, and he said, "Don't be afraid, don't be

24 afraid. It's empty."

25 Q. How did you react to that incident at the time?

Page 1238

1 A. Well, nothing -- I was scared but I was calm. Had I made any

2 move, who knows what would have happened.

3 Q. Now, how many people were being gathered and placed on these

4 buses?

5 A. About 150 to 200 people. We did not count, so I don't know

6 exactly.

7 Q. Did you recognise -- did you know the people that were being

8 gathered along with you and your brother?

9 A. Yes. These were my neighbours. We knew each other in this local

10 commune. Almost all of us knew each other.

11 Q. This local commune where you lived in, I take it that's sort of a

12 neighbourhood or a suburb of Prijedor, is it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And was it mixed ethnicity in that commune or neighbourhood, or

15 was it largely dominated by one particular ethnicity?

16 A. The majority of the population was Muslim.

17 Q. And these people that were being herded on to the buses, do you

18 know what ethnicity they were?

19 A. They were all Muslims.

20 Q. You said you went to the military barracks; where are those?

21 A. It was at Urije, on the road to Bosanska Dubica, on the left-hand

22 side.

23 Q. Now, this location that you named, is that also still in the area

24 of Prijedor or is it outside of Prijedor?

25 A. It is all the territory of Prijedor, as Donja Purharska, the local

Page 1239

1 commune is, the Urije. This area was called Urije from as long as I can

2 remember.

3 Q. I appreciate that and it's my question that's at fault. I

4 understand that there is an opstina Prijedor which takes in a whole large

5 territory with lots of villages, and then there is the town of Prijedor.

6 Was it within the town of Prijedor, this location that you mentioned, the

7 military barracks?

8 A. The centre of town is what we are referring to as town, and the

9 edge of town was the settlements that were about two and a half to three

10 kilometres away from the barracks. Later they renamed it Prijedor 1, 2, 3

11 and 4. Donja Purharska was Prijedor 2, and I don't know exactly where

12 Urije was.

13 Q. All right. When you went to the military barracks, did you get

14 off the buses or did anything happen there?

15 A. We -- at that time, we did not get off the buses. They were

16 waiting for us and then they took us to Omarska.

17 Q. On the same buses?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how long did it take to get to Omarska?

20 A. To be honest, I don't know exactly. I cannot say because in that

21 fear, we did not know where we were and what was going on.

22 Q. Was Omarska far away?

23 A. It is about 18 kilometres away from Prijedor.

24 Q. And the buses drove straight to Omarska, did they? And by that I

25 mean they didn't stop along the way?

Page 1240

1 A. Yes, they did not stop.

2 Q. When you got to Omarska, were you let off the buses, or what

3 happened there?

4 A. They told us to wait and then some people came and said that we

5 couldn't go there because Omarska was full and they had to take us back,

6 so then they took us back. They took us back to Keraterm.

7 Q. And when you say "back to Keraterm," do you say that because

8 Keraterm is on the outskirts of Prijedor?

9 A. Yes. That is near the sign which marks the city limits.

10 Q. So Prijedor is on the inside of the city limits of Prijedor on the

11 way to Banja Luka; is that fair to say? I'm sorry, I meant to say

12 "Keraterm."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Sir, I understand that you arrived at Keraterm still

15 the same day that you were arrested?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And just so we are clear, we are talking about the 31st day of

18 May, 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What happened when you got there?

21 A. When we arrived they told us to get off the buses and then they

22 lined us up against a wall, made us lean against a wall, then they

23 searched us. There were a number of men, I don't know how many -- I don't

24 know how many men were searched at the time and when one group was done,

25 then they would call another and so on.

Page 1241

1 Q. And at the time you were searched, did anything happen to you or

2 the people who were with you being searched?

3 A. They searched everyone. I had nothing on me. A fireman had a

4 small knife so they started beat him. "Is this what you're going to use

5 to beat Serbs?" I don't know what else they were saying to him. But

6 later on, they gave him what they were calling a special treatment. I

7 think is what they were saying.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, we come to the break now.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the break and resume at 11.30.

11 Witness E, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

12 including members of the Prosecution team.

13 We are adjourned.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Now, Witness E, we -- just before we broke, you were telling us

19 that you had arrived at Keraterm. Do I understand correctly, sir, that

20 after you were searched, you were placed in one of the rooms at Keraterm?

21 Do you remember which room you went to first?

22 A. It was the largest room there, straight ahead. A large room that

23 you walk in, walk into directly with a big door, and to the left there was

24 another one.

25 Q. All right. And how long did you stay in that room?

Page 1242

1 A. We stayed there for about 15 or maybe 20 days, I'm not sure, until

2 they interrogated us. And after we would be interrogated, then they would

3 move to us a different room.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. Might the witness be shown a

5 photograph, Exhibit 2, please.

6 Q. Perhaps, Witness, if I could have your attention directed to

7 photograph 2B. First of all -- I'm waiting for the image to come to the

8 ELMO. All right.

9 First of all, do you recognise the scene in that photograph, sir,

10 as something that you're familiar with?

11 A. Indeed, that is Keraterm.

12 Q. And this first room that you were placed in, you say the one that

13 was the largest room, do you see that in this photograph that you

14 identified as being of Keraterm?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would you take the pointer, please, and show Their Honours,

17 please, which of the -- or where the room is that you were first placed

18 in?

19 A. [Indicates].

20 Q. All right. And then you were -- you say you were interrogated.

21 And after you were interrogated, you were placed in yet another room;

22 which room is that? Would you point that out for us.

23 A. Right, it's this one here.

24 Q. You are pointing to the room that has the large doors immediately

25 to the left side of the building; is that correct?

Page 1243

1 A. That's right, yes.

2 Q. And the first room you were placed in was to the right of that

3 room?

4 A. Right, yes. Except that this is a different door. It didn't look

5 like this then.

6 Q. All right. By the photograph now, the doors look different now

7 than they did in 1992; is that what you're telling us, sir?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. The location of the rooms are the same?

10 A. Yes, that is all the same.

11 Q. Did you know when you were there, did you know these rooms by any

12 particular designation such as a number, for example? Did you refer to

13 them by any number?

14 A. Later on when four rooms were set up, then they became Rooms 1, 2,

15 3, and 4. At first only this larger room existed, but later on all these

16 others were set up and those who were interrogated were taken to Room 1,

17 and after a certain period of time to Room 3 too.

18 Q. Okay. So this first room that existed, the larger room, what did

19 that eventually become known as?

20 A. One.

21 Q. Just so that I'm clear, the very first room that you went to, the

22 larger room, the one that you say was to the right of the first room, what

23 did that become known as?

24 A. Number 2.

25 Q. All right.

Page 1244

1 A. That was later on.

2 Q. All right. So a room that was later on referred to as Room 2,

3 that's where you went first, then were you interrogated, then you went to

4 Room 1; is that correct? Do I understand you?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Did you stay in Room 1 for the balance of your detention at

7 Keraterm or did you go to another room later?

8 A. Later, no, I didn't spend most of my time there. I -- the longest

9 period of time I spent in number 4. That was a room that was turned into

10 a military prison, mostly for Serb soldiers, that is, who had got drunk or

11 done something, and that is where they were kept. But then later on,

12 because we were too many, because the first two and the third room were

13 overcrowded, then they put us in Room 4, and the military prison was

14 transferred behind the building.

15 Q. All right. Now, you went to Room 4. You were there with a number

16 of other prisoners; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You talked about the rooms being overcrowded. How many prisoners

19 were in the room that you determined to be overcrowded?

20 A. Well, this large one that we referred to as number 2, it had some

21 500 or -- men in it. I mean, one couldn't really breathe properly because

22 people were sweating, perspiring, there was no ventilation, there was

23 nothing. And as they were bringing in other people, it was getting more

24 and more crowded. They had to open another room then.

25 Q. How about the conditions in Room 1, in terms of being crowded?

Page 1245












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1246

1 A. Much better. The conditions were much better because one could

2 open the door, so that we did not have any problems of that kind there.

3 One could breathe easier. It was much better when compared to the other

4 one.

5 Q. Were there any particular kinds of prisoners housed in these

6 different rooms? In other words, were the prisoners in Room 1 different

7 from the prisoners in Room 2 or 3 or 4?

8 A. Yes. It was -- they were, the first two rooms, number 1 and

9 number 2, that is first number 2 and after interrogation, people will be

10 put in number 1, and as they were bringing in new people, they began to

11 transfer them. And then suddenly they began to bring in people from

12 Kozarac, and so they opened number 3, and that was overcrowded and they

13 were transferring to Room 1, to Room 2, to 3, and then they had to empty

14 that depot, and then they transferred the prison behind and they again

15 sent us there. That is, they asked us who wants to go there. And then we

16 did apply to go to that room, my brother and I, and some others. We said

17 we would go there. I mean, to Room 4. And that is where we went.

18 Q. All right. Let's move on, sir. While you were at the camp, can

19 you tell us whether anything happened at the camp to the prisoners, that

20 you could see or hear?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What kinds of things did you see or hear happening to prisoners

23 while at the camp?

24 A. They had made a penal group. There were some pallets as you

25 entered Room 2; three, four, five pallets. And when I came, yes, they

Page 1247

1 would take it out on various prisoners, doing to them all sorts of

2 things. That is how -- what it was like in the beginning.

3 Q. I'm sorry to ask you to be specific about doing all sorts of

4 things. What do you mean when you say they were doing all sorts of things

5 to prisoners? What did they do to them?

6 A. Beat them, and what do I know. That little Car was killed. It

7 was Duca and Ziga. They beat him with a rifle and the machine-gun

8 somewhere on the road to Bosanski Novi, and he was caught there and they

9 wanted him to show them how he had carried this machine-gun. They forced

10 him to run with it and then to crawl with it. And then they were beating

11 him. And at some point he simply fell down on the ground, and then Duca

12 and Ziga hit him with their feet all over the body. And then he was lying

13 on the ground, and then they took him -- he was carried into one of the

14 rooms, and the next day he died.

15 Q. Did you see this incident yourself, sir?

16 A. I did, yes, because it was right opposite the door and the door

17 was open.

18 Q. Was this in the daytime or at night?

19 A. Daytime.

20 Q. Who did you see beating him?

21 A. I saw Zigic and Duca.

22 Q. Did you know Zigic from before your internment at Keraterm?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How did you know him?

25 A. For a while we were together involved in youth brigades and then

Page 1248

1 he became a taxi driver and I worked in the field. And at times when I

2 would see him there, when I came into that town, then I would ask him to

3 take me to a hotel. If I went to the hotel, of course, I would pay the

4 fare to him always. He lived in Cirkin Polje.

5 Q. How about this man that you referred to as Knezevic? Do you

6 remember his full name?

7 A. I don't. I don't even know him. I mean, I did not know him

8 before. I only could hear them say or shout out, "Duca is on his way."

9 Q. And did you see Duca participate in this matter as well, in the

10 beating?

11 A. The two of them did it together, he and Zigic.

12 Q. Was it only Zigic and Duca or were there other people involved?

13 A. I cannot remember exactly because nine years is not a short period

14 of time. The two of them simply stuck in my memory because I saw them

15 personally.

16 Q. Now, I heard you make reference to a machine-gun and crawling.

17 I'm not quite sure exactly what you said about that. Perhaps you could

18 indicate to us what you saw in relation to what Car was doing while Duca

19 and Zigic were beating him?

20 A. They gave him a machine-gun to carry and run in a circle carrying

21 it. And after that, they told him to go down on his fours and to crawl

22 with it around, with that machine-gun. And as he did that, they beat him

23 and kicked him and yelled at him, "How you've come here to kill Serbs," I

24 can't really remember their words they used.

25 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to turn to another incident. In your

Page 1249

1 stay at Keraterm, did you become familiar with the names or did you know

2 any individuals by the name of Banovic?

3 A. I did not know them personally before. I only heard that they

4 were called Banovics in the camp and that they were twin brothers, but

5 they were different.

6 Q. How -- were you able to tell them apart?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were there some unique features about any one of them that allowed

9 you to tell them apart?

10 A. Yes. One of them had long hair and was nicknamed Cupo, and the

11 other one had short hair and had an earring. They were not all that

12 alike.

13 Q. So from that statement, do I assume that they were not identical

14 twins but fraternal twins, if you know?

15 A. Yes. They were fraternal twins, that is what I heard. I do not

16 have any knowledge of that, but their likeness was not all that big. I

17 mean one couldn't really say immediately that they were twins.

18 Q. Sir, you referred to an individual by Cupo that you referred to.

19 Did you see him do anything to anyone while you were at Keraterm?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What?

22 A. He was the one who beat. He had a baseball bat, and he beat some

23 prisoners from Kozarac. And then once as we went for lunch, he took out a

24 knife and pricked him in his left leg, in his left thigh.

25 Q. Maybe I don't understand your answer, but you said he took out his

Page 1250

1 knife and pricked him. To whom are you referring when -- who did he prick

2 with the knife, if anyone?

3 A. Yes. An inmate. I don't really know who that was, because there

4 were people whom I did not know, whom I'd never seen before.

5 Q. Did I understand you correctly that that knife incident happened

6 while people were on their way to lunch, or did I misunderstand you?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Right. That is, if one can call it lunch, because we

8 would get something to eat only once a day around 7.00 in the evening and

9 we called that lunch. So it was on our way to lunch when that happened.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, while we're still talking about Cupo, did

11 you know someone by the name of Jovo who was also with you in Room 4?

12 A. I did not know him before, because he lived somewhere up in

13 Ljubija so that I did not know the man. But he was brought to the camp,

14 and they put him in Room 4.

15 Q. Do you recall what happened to Jovo, if anything, while you were

16 in Room 4 with him?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Did something happen to Jovo that

19 you can tell us about today, sir?

20 A. Yes. I don't know when it was when they called him out, but I

21 think he was a very short time there, and the same day he was brought in

22 there they called him out. He went out and they beat him, and beat him,

23 and beat him. And after that, they put him back inside, and I think it

24 was the same Cupo Banovic who had called him out. And then they shouted,

25 "That is how we punish Serb traitors."

Page 1251

1 Q. Where was Jovo beaten, in terms of location?

2 A. I couldn't see it all, but they were beating him from between

3 number 1, that is where they had taken him and then all the way down to

4 number 4.

5 Q. Did you personally see this beating, sir?

6 A. I saw Banovic hit him with that baseball bat.

7 Q. As a result of that beating, do you know what happened to Jovo?

8 A. I think that he died shortly afterwards.

9 Q. Did you know someone with a nickname of Faca?

10 A. Yeah. That is, I didn't know him. I never met him so I don't --

11 I don't know him. I don't even know what his real name is. But since he

12 came to the camp at Keraterm, as he would come, somebody would point a

13 finger at him and say, "What's up Faca?" "Faca come over here," and then

14 he would slap somebody in the face.

15 Q. Was Faca an inmate of the camp or was he a visitor or a guard, or

16 do you know?

17 A. He came to the camp from time to time, and at times he also came

18 with his dog there.

19 Q. And when he came to the camp, apart from slapping people in the

20 face, did you see him do anything else?

21 A. I did not see him do anything else. But I heard from a friend who

22 lived in Brezicani that he had killed his relative, that is, this friend

23 of mine told me that he had seen him kill him in the -- in a lavatory, but

24 I did not see that. I don't know.

25 Q. When this Faca came to the camp, you told us that he would

Page 1252

1 sometimes slap people in the face; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How often did he come to the camp?

4 A. I couldn't really say. He did not come all that often, perhaps a

5 few times. Well, not a few, several times.

6 Q. I'm not trying to press you on the matter, sir, but sometimes we

7 don't know what "few" or "several" means. Are you able to attach a

8 approximate number to "few" or "several", or if not, I'm not asking you to

9 speculate?

10 A. Well, several times is when I -- I mean, four, five, six times.

11 Q. All right. And apart from slapping people in the face, did you

12 see him do anything else in relation to prisoners?

13 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, he's been asked that question and he's

14 already answered it in the negative. He did not see him do anything else,

15 which is at line 11:53:06.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: It matters not. I'll move on.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please move on.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Certainly.

19 Q. Just returning, if I may, to one thing that I forgot to ask you

20 when we were talking about Jovo. You gave the opinion that you think he

21 died. What drew you to that conclusion, sir? What did you see or hear

22 that led you to the conclusion that Jovo died from that beating?

23 A. We saw that he was not breathing any more and took him out to the

24 left from our door to a pallet.

25 Q. All right. Did you know a police officer from Ljubija in the camp

Page 1253

1 by the name of Drago?

2 A. Yes, I knew him.

3 Q. Do you know if anything happened to him while he was detained in

4 the camp?

5 A. He was detained for a while and then one night they called him

6 out, or rather evening. At night-fall he was called out. I don't know

7 who exactly called him out. It could be Banovic, but I can't really say.

8 Banovic was one of them. And they took him out and beat him. We barely

9 heard him. All we heard were blows. And something clinking, like a rifle

10 or something. And one could hear that baseball bat hitting something.

11 Q. You referred to the name Banovic. You don't know if Banovic did

12 the beating. Do you know whether Banovic was there or do you know whose

13 shift it was on?

14 A. No, not really. Banovic was there. But now I just cannot recall

15 -- I can't remember which shift it was. I think it was the shift that

16 Crni was in, but I don't know his name.

17 Q. All right. When you referred to Banovic and the baseball-bat

18 sound, which Banovic are you referring to?

19 A. Cupo, Cupo. Yes. His brother did nothing. He just sat up there

20 and did nothing. He did it all.

21 Q. All right. Do you know what happened to --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, the witness earlier said, I think

23 it was the shift that, is it, Crni was in?

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I believe he used the word "Crni." I'm going to

25 get to Crni in a couple of paragraphs.

Page 1254


2 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm still on 10, about to move to 11, and Crni is

3 referred to in 12.


5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

6 Q. Just a couple more questions, sir, about Drago. Do you know what

7 happened to him after this beating? Do you have any personal knowledge

8 of --

9 A. Yes. He died after he was beaten.

10 Q. How do you know that?

11 A. Well, you could see the man was turned all black and blue.

12 Q. Did he come back into your room after the beating but before he

13 died?

14 A. He didn't come back. He was carried in, back in.

15 Q. Who carried him in?

16 A. I think that they called out some four inmates to carry him

17 through the door into the room.

18 Q. And you saw he was dead, did you?

19 A. After, after -- well, it all looked to us like a minute or two but

20 it could have been half an hour, 20 minutes. But at any rate, he died

21 shortly.

22 Q. And do I assume that his body was taken out of the room and taken

23 away after that?

24 A. That's right. All of those who died were taken out to the left of

25 this room and put on a pallet. There was one next to a door, and that is

Page 1255

1 where they were put, and then a small truck would come from the public

2 utilities company, and took them away. Where, I do not know.

3 Q. That's fine, thank you. Sir, are you also aware of a person who

4 was ethnically Albanian who ran a cake shop in Prijedor?

5 A. I had heard that he was of Albanian ethnic background. I could

6 hear his accent when he was speaking, and I knew that he had a pastry

7 shop, and he was there with me in the camp.

8 Q. Did something happen to him, to your knowledge?

9 A. He was also taken out, beaten. They used all kinds of objects on

10 him. He had scars on his head. There was blood. But -- and then shortly

11 thereafter, he died, so there was no more blood after that.

12 Q. Do you know who beat him or who was present or what shift was on

13 during that beating?

14 A. The shift where the most beatings took place was the one where the

15 Banovic was, and this Keli and Crni. It was mostly during their shift

16 that the most beatings took place, and we were most afraid of that shift.

17 Q. And you've just told us that's when it usually happened. What

18 happened -- are you able to tell us whether or not -- which shift was on

19 when the Albanian gentleman was beaten to death?

20 A. I think -- I didn't know this name, but I knew him by the nickname

21 of Crni. "Crni" means dark. He was not very tall. He may have been

22 about 170 centimetres tall, well-built, short hair. He was always wearing

23 a short, black T-shirt, and he had a nickel-plated pistol with

24 nickel-coated bullets.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: All right, sir. Your Honours, I anticipate that


Page 1256












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1257

1 during the course of the next discussion there may be a quote which will

2 -- might identify someone. I'd like to move into private session very

3 briefly.


5 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1258













13 Page 1258 redacted private session.













Page 1259













13 Page 1259 redacted private session.













Page 1260













13 Page 1260 redacted private session.













Page 1261

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [Open session]


11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour, for that. I would have

12 carried on.

13 Q. Sir, perhaps allow me to rephrase my question earlier about Duca.

14 You told us that he came to the camp from time to time, and I asked you

15 when he did -- on those occasions when he did come to the camp, what would

16 he do? I think you told us that he came with somebody, or did I get that

17 wrong?

18 A. They were coming, and Zigic would come with him and some others.

19 There was one with a red beret, I don't know who he was, and several

20 others. They would come in a jeep or some other vehicle. They would

21 always come at dusk.

22 Q. And without getting into specifics in answer to this question,

23 when they came, what would happen, in general?

24 A. He took Fajzo and he said, "Who killed my brother?" He asked

25 Fajzo. And he told him, he said, "You put my brother's head in a vise and

Page 1262

1 kept tightening it until he died." And then they brought Fajzo's wife and

2 child and told him, "We'll kill them both if you don't tell us." And then

3 he cried and he said that he didn't do it, and so on.

4 Q. All right. Maybe I can get a couple of details. Do I understand

5 correctly that on one of these occasions when Duca came to the camp, he

6 had dealings with a man that you refer to as Fajzo; is that correct?

7 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand.

8 JUDGE MAY: We have done this.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

10 Q. Did you see Fajzo's wife and child at the camp?

11 A. Yes. She was holding it in her arms.

12 Q. Did anything happen to Fajzo?

13 A. Yes. Duca came, took a knife, and he sort of cut him across the

14 knife [as interpreted]. Then we bandaged him. I don't know how much he

15 cut him.

16 Q. You referred to, I believe you said, a punishment group. How many

17 people were in that group?

18 A. That group kept changing. There weren't always the same people in

19 it.

20 Q. And this group you're referring to, were those inmates in the

21 group or are you talking about perpetrators, people who did things in the

22 group?

23 A. That was a group of inmates.

24 Q. All right, sir. And I think I'm going to move on. Do you know

25 what happened to Fajzo? Did he stay at the camp?

Page 1263

1 A. He did not stay at Keraterm. He was called out. I don't know

2 whether he was sent to Omarska or somewhere else. I don't know exactly.

3 Sometime they would call out people and say that they were going to

4 Omarska, but we did not know where they would end up.

5 Q. So you know he was called out, but you don't know what happened to

6 him; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, I'm going to turn now to an incident. Do you remember

9 something that happened to the inmates of Room 3, latter part of July,

10 1992?

11 A. Yes. We were sleeping. It may have been 3.00 or 4.00 in the

12 morning. I don't know exactly. We could not orient ourselves. We did

13 not have watches so we did not know what time it was, but -- we could not

14 know the precise time. But we could hear a song, a Serbian national song,

15 and suddenly we could hear shattering of glass and something, words to the

16 effect, "Don't run." I don't know who said that. And then it started,

17 the shooting, first several shots, and then bursts of fire. I don't know

18 what weapons were fired. That I don't know exactly.

19 Q. You were in Room 4 at the time?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That's right next door to Room 3?

22 A. Yes. There is only a wall separates them.

23 Q. Did anything happen, during the course of this gunfire you heard,

24 to anyone in your room, Room 4?

25 A. Yes. One young man was hit in the arm by a ricochet.

Page 1264

1 Q. Do you know what type of prisoners were being housed in Room 3

2 just before this shooting incident you've referred to? Do you know where

3 these people were from?

4 A. Yes. They were from the area of Hambarine, Carakovo, Biscani, the

5 area up there. This is an area called Brdo.

6 Q. And do you know how long those people had been at Keraterm before

7 this shooting incident?

8 A. I think six to seven days, perhaps. I don't know exactly.

9 Q. Did you know someone at Keraterm by the name of Kole, the nickname

10 of Kole?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was his position at the camp?

13 A. He was a shift commander.

14 Q. Referring to the night of the shooting incident, do you recall

15 anything that would lead you to believe whether or not Kole was there or

16 not there?

17 A. I do not recall exactly whether he was present there during the

18 shooting, but when the shooting was going on, he said, "Stop shooting.

19 Fuck your mothers." Something like that.

20 Q. Did you know this Kole before the armed conflict?

21 A. I used to know him. Not that I was very close to him, but I did

22 know him.

23 Q. How long had you known Kole?

24 A. That I wouldn't be able to tell you.

25 Q. In what sort of circumstances did you know Kole? Like were you at

Page 1265

1 particular locations when you saw him?

2 A. I think that he played soccer for Cirkin Polje, but we also had a

3 club ourselves so we played them, and so I knew him through these soccer

4 teams.

5 Q. Do you know whose shift was on, and if so, how do you know about

6 that shift being on?

7 A. That was Kole's shift, because he would come at 10.00 p.m. and

8 lock the door, and this is how I know that it was him.

9 Q. Did you see Kole at Keraterm that evening before the shooting

10 incident?

11 A. Yes, he came to take over the shift. The shifts were taken over

12 at 6.00, 6.00 a.m. or 6.00 p.m., so one shift was from 6.00 to 1800 hours

13 and the other one 1800 to 6.00.

14 Q. One other question about that, sir, and that is you think that you

15 heard Kole's voice. Is there something about his voice that would allow

16 you to recognise it if and when you heard it?

17 A. He has a somewhat, I don't know, rough voice if I can -- actually,

18 it's a bit rough and a bit high-pitched.

19 Q. Sir, after the shooting incident, did something happen the -- in

20 the morning hours of the day following the incident?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us?

23 A. In the morning they collected the dead bodies and they placed them

24 to the left, which is the place they would always put dead bodies before

25 taking them away. I think this was done during the Banovic and Crni's

Page 1266

1 shift. Later on in the evening, I don't know what time it was exactly,

2 they took out a group of people. They beat them there, and they killed

3 them.

4 Q. How do you know that?

5 A. Well, they took them out of Room 3. This is what we were told

6 later. We knew that it was not from Room 4, Room 2 or Room 1, so it must

7 have been from Room 3. They brought them out they were crying. They

8 said, "Don't. Don't." And suddenly shooting started, and later somebody

9 started shouting, "My leg. My leg." And then you could hear shots.

10 Q. Now, were there some people in your room, sir, who were involved

11 in the aftermath of the shooting incident on the first incident? Let me

12 be more specific. Do you know an Aco and Sekerin?

13 A. Aco and Sekerin, yes.

14 Q. Yes. Go ahead. What did they do, if anything?

15 A. They were carrying the dead over there. This is what we learned

16 three days later.

17 Q. Did they tell you about how many bodies there were after that

18 first shooting incident?

19 A. I heard, according to their accounts, that there were 127 killed.

20 Q. Did they also tell you how many were wounded?

21 A. I don't know exactly. They told us but I cannot recall the exact

22 number. I think that there was about 57, something like that. I don't

23 know exactly.

24 Q. That's fine, sir.

25 A. Or 47.

Page 1267












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1268

1 Q. All right. Now, sir, you've told us that the following day, if we

2 want to call it that, in other words, there is a morning shift and you

3 said that people were being taken out, and then later on you told us that

4 there was an additional number of people who were being beaten; is that

5 correct? Do I understand you correctly that later the following evening

6 something happened further to Room 3 prisoners?

7 A. The first shooting was during Kole's shift. The second shooting

8 was the very next night, the night after. When the night came, they

9 brought them out. Later on I learned that it was 22 men dead, that they

10 brought out, beat them, and then killed them all.

11 Q. Did you hear that information from Aco and Sekerin as well or from

12 someone else?

13 A. These were the men who had stayed in Room 3 who said this.

14 Q. Thank you. Sir, you've told us that you knew Kole before the

15 conflict and did you talk to Kole a few days after the shooting incidents?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember what Kole told you?

18 A. He said to me, "I think -- had I been there, nothing would have

19 happened."

20 Q. Now, you say you knew Kole before the war. And do you think that

21 you would be able to recognise this individual if you were to see him

22 again?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you look around the courtroom now, sir, and if the person

25 that you've referred to in your evidence as Kole, if he's in the

Page 1269

1 courtroom, could you point him out, please, and tell us where he's

2 sitting?

3 A. To my right at the end.

4 Q. All right. You are pointing in the direction of -- to your right,

5 did you say? Could you hold up your right hand.

6 A. To the right from me.

7 Q. I see.

8 A. He is at the very end.

9 Q. You are looking to your left and holding up your right hand, which

10 is the opposite hand. Perhaps you could point at the individual so that

11 Their Honours can see where you are pointing.

12 A. It's the one at the very end by the corner over there.

13 Q. You are pointing to the back wall of this courtroom or to the

14 wall. There are six seats, for the record, in that back wall. There are

15 three policemen and three people in civilians. Can you tell us which

16 chair, counting from left to right, the person that you refer to as Kole

17 is sitting in? Counting from left to right including the police

18 officers.

19 A. The fifth chair.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. For the record, identifying Kole.


22 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

23 Q. Sir, did -- were you ever allowed to use the telephone?

24 A. I asked Kole if we could call home after that to just let them

25 know that we were all right, and he let us do that. So we went to make

Page 1270

1 our calls and we called our homes.

2 Q. And when you were making these calls, where was the telephone

3 located?

4 A. It was in that room next to the weigh bridge.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness be shown Exhibit 2 again,

6 please.


8 MR. RYNEVELD: And I'm going to ask that the usher show the

9 witness Exhibit 2C.

10 Q. First of all, sir, do you recognise the photograph now shown to

11 you marked Exhibit 2C in these proceedings?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that the room or weigh -- by the weigh bridge to which you have

14 referred to in the foreground?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You earlier told us that, I believe, that when you were taken to

17 be beaten, you were -- this is the place where the commanders were; is

18 that correct?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Did you go to this particular hut, that is the one with the flat

21 roof and the white -- in the foreground of the photograph 2? Is that

22 where you were taken to use the phone?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Would you take your pointer, if you would, please, and tell us

25 where the phone was located and what did you see near the phone?

Page 1271

1 A. Here, inside, next to this glass where it opens, that is where the

2 telephone was, and next to the telephone were the lists.

3 Q. Did you see any lists?

4 A. I did. There were all the lists, the lists for all the four --

5 for all four bedrooms, dormitories.

6 Q. All right. Now, sir, were all the prisoners given the right to

7 use this telephone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who do you know -- are you able to tell us how many prisoners were

10 allowed to phone home?

11 A. I know that my brother and I used it. I don't know how many

12 others.

13 Q. Thank you. And you and your brother knew Kole before the war?

14 A. I don't know about my brother. I know that I knew him.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know someone by the name of Kajin or someone

16 referred to by the name of Kajin while you were at Keraterm?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how did you know him?

19 A. I knew him for quite sometime before the war.

20 Q. Had you had any dealings with an individual by the name of Kajin

21 before the war?

22 A. Yes. Once we got into a fight at the railway station. He and his

23 colleague were involved. I don't know who that was.

24 Q. Do you remember what the fight was about?

25 A. Yes. He was refusing to pay for the use of the lavatory to a

Page 1272

1 woman who was there, and we started an argument. And we had all had a

2 drink or two, so we got involved in a fight.

3 Q. And did you see this person with whom you had been in a fight at

4 Keraterm?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sometime during your dealings with this individual at Keraterm,

7 did he make reference in any way to your previous encounter?

8 A. When I saw him there, I hid inside for the first two or three

9 days. I was afraid. I dare not come out. But then he called me out and

10 said, "Listen, I'm not one of those who will go for tit-for-tat. Nobody

11 will touch you. But I do know that you carried a rifle in the SDA call it

12 attack on Prijedor."

13 Q. Did he indicate anything to you about what would happen to you if

14 you had belonged to a particular group?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Could you describe Kajin for me?

17 A. Yes. At that time he was younger than he is today. And he was

18 rather thin, tall, blond, dark-blond or something.

19 Q. Now, you say you knew this man before the war. How well did you

20 know him before the war, apart from this fight you had with him?

21 A. Well, it's difficult to say how long, because he's younger, and we

22 were not often in the same company, but when we went swimming, we'd go

23 together or would be in the same place, I mean hotels. I came across him

24 at various places.

25 Q. How often did you have dealings with him at Keraterm? How often

Page 1273

1 did you see him, apart from this conversation with him that you've just

2 related to us?

3 A. What do you mean, "often"?

4 Q. That's something I'm going to have to ask you to describe for us.

5 On how many occasions would you say you saw this person you refer to as

6 Kajin?

7 A. He was the camp commander in the early days, in the beginning, so

8 that we would see him every day.

9 Q. Do you think that you would recognise this individual today if you

10 were to see him again?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would you please, then, look around the courtroom, and if the

13 person you've referred to as Kajin is in the courtroom, could you point

14 him out, please, and tell us where he is sitting?

15 A. He is in the middle, next to -- one, two, three, the third seat

16 from left to right.

17 Q. Third seat left to right. Thank you.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, again, identifies Damir Dosen.



21 Q. Sir, you've made reference to people that you say were in a

22 special punishment group and referred to Duca. Do you recall any

23 incidents involving those inmates where Kajin was present?

24 A. I think he was there when Car was killed. I believe he was there

25 at the time.

Page 1274

1 Q. Did Duca or Zigic ever appear while he was on shift, to your

2 knowledge?

3 A. Well, they did, but I just don't know how many times.

4 Q. Do you remember any one incident that you know Kajin was present

5 and, if so, how you know he was present?

6 A. Well, once they took out the man who is called Kocijas, who was

7 nicknamed Kocijas, and another guy. It was sometime in the evening. I

8 wouldn't know the exact hour. And forced the two of them to fight between

9 themselves, that is to deal blows to each other. And as they were doing

10 this, a soldier or somebody came up and said, "Stronger, stronger," and

11 then hit one of those and said, "This is how you deal a blow." And that

12 was it, and then he laughed and that was it.

13 Q. Who laughed?

14 A. I didn't hear the interpretation.

15 Q. My question is: Who laughed when the prisoners were forced to

16 beat each other?

17 A. Kajin was laughing. Kajin was laughing.

18 Q. Did you know an individual by the name of Sikirica while you were

19 at Keraterm?

20 A. I never knew him before.

21 Q. Did you know someone by that name while you were an inmate at

22 Keraterm?

23 A. I only knew him by nickname, that is what I had heard, that his

24 name was -- that he was called Sikirica, that he worked at Celpak, and

25 that he was a shift foreman. That is what I heard.

Page 1275

1 Q. Did this individual that you later heard to be referred to as

2 Sikirica ever tell you what his function was at the camp? Did he

3 personally tell the inmates that?

4 A. Yes. When he came he said, "I'm the new camp commander." That

5 was it.

6 Q. Did you ever see the individual that you refer to as Sikirica

7 involved in beating of any of the prisoners while in your presence?

8 A. I don't remember seeing him.

9 Q. Do you remember whether people were beaten while he was on duty?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How frequently?

12 A. Usually when the Banovic group was there, that is Banovics and

13 that Keli and Crni. They were usually the ones who beat.

14 Q. Could you describe this gentleman that you knew as Sikirica for

15 us, very briefly?

16 A. Well, he wore a military uniform, very smart, well-ironed,

17 military boots, and at that time, he had a mustache, thin mustache, and

18 short hair.

19 Q. And how often would you say you saw Sikirica in the camp during

20 the period of your detention, sir?

21 A. From the beginning every day.

22 Q. Do you feel that from your seeing this man at the camp, having him

23 tell you he was camp commander, and seeing him nearly on a daily basis,

24 you would be able to recognise him if you were to see him again?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1276

1 Q. Would you look around the courtroom and go through the same

2 procedures as you did for the other individuals, please.

3 A. It's the second one from the left to right. The second seat with

4 the beard. Now he has a beard. He didn't have it before.

5 Q. And again, that's in the back row as I'm looking at the courtroom

6 to your left?

7 A. Yes. I can see him directly from here, but there is also a guard

8 before him.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the record show that he's identified the

10 accused Sikirica.



13 Q. Sir, what can you tell us about conditions at the camp after

14 Sikirica told you that he was the new camp commander?

15 A. Nothing. It could only get worse. It couldn't get better.

16 Because we could not have from the beginning, we could not have any

17 protection afterwards. We had no protection.

18 Q. Very briefly, sir, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions

19 about camp conditions. You've already told us about food. Very briefly,

20 what kind of food and how often would you be fed, and how were the

21 conditions about getting to and from the food?

22 A. Well, the food wasn't anything to write home about. We had one

23 meal a day. In the beginning it was a little earlier. Later on they

24 moved it on to 7.00 in the evening, and there wasn't enough food for

25 everybody. There wasn't food for everybody all the time.

Page 1277

1 At times when Banovics, and Keli, and those others, when they were

2 there, then we would be given 30 seconds to have a meal, and I don't think

3 you can take a single bite in 30 seconds.

4 Q. What would happen to you if you exceeded the time limit they said?

5 A. Well, beaten, and they'd hit whoever they could lay their hands

6 on.

7 Q. How about the toilets, sir, were there sufficient toilets?

8 A. No. And they were all blocked at times. We tried to clean them.

9 I mean one simply couldn't go in because of -- what do you call it that

10 smell, that stench, what to call it. They were all flooded. At times

11 when there was water, we washed them.

12 Q. Were there facilities for washing yourselves or your clothes?

13 A. No, we did not. No, we did not have that. At times during Kole's

14 shift, we'd ask Kole, "Can we go? Is there water?" And then at times he

15 would allow us and say yes. So on one occasion we all had a bath during

16 Kole's shift.

17 Q. The water that was supplied or available, was that drinking water

18 or was it -- well, was it drinking water or was it a different kind of

19 water?

20 A. At times drinking water was brought in, cisterns, from the water

21 supply company and the fire brigade. And at times we also used the water

22 from the hydrant when there was no other water, when there was no other

23 water.

24 Q. Did the prisoners develop any diseases to your knowledge or any

25 gastro symptoms to your knowledge while you were an inmate? And by

Page 1278












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1279

1 "gastro" I mean stomach ailments.

2 A. Yes. Some contracted dysentery, that is, vomiting and diarrhea.

3 Q. What was the effect on your body weight while you were at

4 Keraterm?

5 A. I lost 14 and a half kilograms during that time from the beginning

6 to the end.

7 Q. You arrived in Keraterm on the 31st of May 1992, and you left

8 when?

9 A. On the 5th of August 1992.

10 Q. I understand you were taken to Trnopolje where you were eventually

11 released on the 12th of August; is that correct?

12 A. I was released -- well, I'm not quite sure. Was it the 8th of

13 August?

14 Q. Were you at -- let me ask this in two questions. Were you taken

15 to Trnopolje?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you stay long?

18 A. Three or four days. Three, I think.

19 Q. Did you have to sign any documents in order to be released?

20 A. Yes. In order to be released, I had to sign over everything and

21 to leave the town.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I just want to consult with my colleague and I

23 believe those are my questions. I just want to make sure.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]


Page 1280

1 Q. So how long approximately would you say you stayed at Keraterm?

2 Are you able to tell us that or we can do our own math?

3 A. Altogether, 68 days. I mean Keraterm and Trnopolje.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Witness. Those are my questions. Would

5 you answer my learned friends, please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I think we'll take the break now.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I was going to ask you to do

8 that.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness E, we are going to adjourn until 2.30.

10 During the break you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody and

11 that includes members of the Prosecution team. We stand adjourned.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.














Page 1281

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves?

3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

5 Q. Witness E, I'd just like to ask you quickly please about this: Is

6 it correct that in relation to these matters, you have made two statements

7 to the Office of the Prosecutor, one in February, 1995 and a second in

8 August of last year, 2000?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is this also right, that when you made your second statement,

11 you were able to go through the details of your first statement and to

12 confirm that what you'd put in your first statement was accurate, with the

13 exception I think of one minor detail concerning a member of your family;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Your Honour, may we go into private

17 session, please?


19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1282













13 Page 1282 redacted private session.













Page 1283

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]


23 Q. I'd like to ask you this, please, Witness E, you were in Prijedor

24 at the end of April 1992. Is it correct that you, yourself, were not in

25 employment at that time?

Page 1284

1 A. At that point, I did not work.

2 Q. Between the takeover of Prijedor by Serb-dominated entities and

3 your arrest, were you able to move around the municipality in the ordinary

4 way that you had previously been able to do?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was that because there were now some checkpoints manned by the

7 military or the police which were checking identities?

8 A. I don't even know that they were checkpoints. I just didn't feel

9 like going down there.

10 Q. So because of the change in political situation, you decided in

11 large to remain at home; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you hear of or witness any military activity or fighting in

14 the Prijedor area at the end of May 1992?

15 A. I heard -- I had heard some shooting, but I did not know what was

16 going on.

17 Q. When you were arrested on the 31st of May 1992 with, I think,

18 about 150 others, would this be correct that the make-up of that group

19 was, in essence, men of military age? Would you accept that?

20 A. No, I do not agree. I was not able-bodied.

21 Q. The phrase I used was "men of military age" not military

22 capability, Witness E, military age. Would you accept that? In other

23 words, 16 to 60.

24 A. I don't know what is the military age. There were men who were

25 over 60, over 70. They could not have been of military age.

Page 1285

1 Q. Don't mention any names, Witness E, but is it right that you were

2 questioned about the age of your father at the time of your arrest?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you told the people who had come to arrest you that he was 60,

5 and having told them that he was that age, they allowed him to stay,

6 didn't they?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And also left behind were your mother and sister. Again, don't

9 tell us any names. That's correct, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The -- some of the people who came to arrest you, you considered

12 to be Chetniks, don't you?

13 A. I don't understand. What do you mean when you say "Chetniks"?

14 Q. Well, what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in both of your

15 statements is that you considered some of them from their accents, at

16 least, to be Chetniks either from Lika or Licani?

17 A. I called them men from Lika. They had those accents and they had

18 cockades on their hands.

19 Q. But the phrase you used to describe them, do you accept, was

20 "Chetnik"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Having been arrested, you've told us of your various travels to

23 various places, Witness E. Is this correct that it became evident when

24 you were turned away from Omarska because there was insufficient room, it

25 was evident, was it not, that no organisation had taken place concerning

Page 1286

1 your group as to where you were going to go?

2 A. I don't know whether there were any preparations for that. I

3 cannot conclude anything about that. They just gathered us up. I don't

4 know if they knew how many people they were going to get.

5 Q. Were the people who were driving the buses to Omarska, were they

6 surprised to be turned away? Could you see that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You couldn't see it or they weren't surprised?

9 A. They just told them, "Go back," and then they just turned around

10 and they went back.

11 Q. Upon your arrival at Keraterm, is it right that you were searched,

12 and one of the items which was taken from you was your identity card?

13 A. Yes, and cigarettes and a lighter.

14 Q. And were identity cards taken from all the other people who

15 arrived at the same time as you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It's right also that that identity card was returned to you whilst

18 you were in detention at Keraterm; is that not so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And is that true of the other detainees, they also had their

21 identity cards returned?

22 A. Not all identity cards were returned to everyone. Some remained

23 there.

24 Q. Without asking you to put a definitive, accurate figure on it,

25 what sort of proportion of the people in the camp had their identity cards

Page 1287

1 returned to them, Witness E?

2 A. I wouldn't be able to say.

3 Q. Would you say it was the majority of people had their cards

4 returned or a minority?

5 A. I do not know that. I know that my brother and myself had our

6 identity cards returned to us. I don't know about the others. I really

7 cannot say.

8 Q. During the process of you all arriving and being searched, one

9 individual was mistreated. That was because he was found in possession of

10 a knife; is that correct?

11 A. In fact, we have to make a distinction. There is a difference

12 between a knife and a cakija.

13 Q. Perhaps you could tell us what the difference is, Witness E, so we

14 can understand your answer, please?

15 A. Knife is bigger, you know what a knife -- and cakija is smaller

16 and it falls, so it's something that you bring along in your pocket so

17 that you can maybe slice an apple or cut some bacon or something like

18 that.

19 Q. In English I think we would use the word "penknife" to describe

20 such an implement. Is that something that you would understand?

21 A. Yes, yes, that's it.

22 Q. I thought that's what you meant. Is this correct also, Witness E,

23 that initially, upon your arrival at the camp, there was no mistreatment

24 for at least two or three days?

25 A. I cannot recall exactly those two or three days.

Page 1288

1 Q. If I was to refresh your memory from the second statement which

2 you made to the Office of the Prosecutor, you told them on that occasion,

3 "For the first two or three days, nothing happened to us." Does that

4 refresh your memory, Witness E?

5 A. Something like that. That's how it was approximately, even though

6 we had been -- we were locked up so we were not in position to know what

7 was going on.

8 Q. I'd like now to turn to some specific incidents involving

9 individuals you've talked about. The Serb whose name was Jovo, you've

10 told us what -- something of what was said at the time, but is this

11 correct, that the motive for ill-treating that person was because he had

12 either voted for the SDA or had displayed posters of the SDA or Alija

13 Izetbegovic at his home?

14 A. The people who knew him, who used to know him, and he was from

15 Ljubija, they said that his -- there were SDA posters on his house, but I

16 don't know whether this was true, but this is what I heard.

17 Q. And the Banovic brother who assaulted him did so out of -- because

18 he was wanting to take out his revenge and aggression upon Jovo; is that

19 correct?

20 A. I don't know whether Banovic said that, but I heard that someone

21 said later something like it. "This is how we punish the traitors."

22 Q. The reason I ask you - and may I refresh your memory from your

23 statement made in 1995 - is that you said to the Office of the Prosecutor,

24 "Banovic who carried the baseball bat took out his revenge and aggression

25 on him." Is that something that you were able to observe and conclude?

Page 1289












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1290

1 A. He beat him. And why he beat him, that I don't know.

2 Q. Turning now, Witness E, please, to the man Drago Tokmadzic. Is it

3 right that in relation to him, the motive for attacking him was because he

4 was both Croat and an active police officer?

5 A. Probably. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. You are not able to say who it was precisely who beat Drago

7 Tokmadzic?

8 A. I heard -- what's his name? This Banovic, whose nickname was

9 Cupo, I heard him, his voice, and his baseball bat, which had that hollow

10 sound when it delivered blows.

11 Q. Would this be correct, that the body of Drago Tokmadzic was taken

12 away in a hearse?

13 A. I think that they were all taken away in a hearse except those --

14 but we will come to that. Those who died individually were taken away in

15 a hearse.

16 Q. Can I turn, now, please, to the Albanian, the man who owned the

17 cake or ice-cream shop at the Prijedor station. Is this correct: That

18 the motive for assaulting him was because he was believed to be wealthy,

19 and there was an interest in extorting money from him?

20 A. There is a great possibility that that was so.

21 Q. The man, Car, who was alleged to have a machine-gun when he was

22 arrested, was that the focus of the ill-treatment of that man?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is it right that that was an incident which took place at

25 night?

Page 1291

1 A. They dealt with him during the day.

2 Q. Apart from Jovo, you were aware of other Serb detainees, I think,

3 in Room 4. How many were there who were detained in Room 4, Serb

4 detainees?

5 A. With us?

6 Q. Either with you or later separately.

7 A. They were not with us. They were -- they were there when there

8 were only Rooms 1 and 2 as military detention. They brought them there,

9 men who either got drunk or did I don't know, and this is where they kept

10 them. One of those who had beaten us when we were being placed on buses

11 also ended up there.

12 Q. Can you say, please, if you know, how many people were being --

13 how many Serbs were being detained at any one time?

14 A. That I don't know.

15 Q. I'd like to turn now to the issue of camp commanders, please,

16 Witness E. During your stay, it's right, isn't it, that three separate

17 people were commanders of the Keraterm facility?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The person who was commander of the Keraterm facility when you

20 arrived remained in that position for some 25 days after your arrival; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Approximately that.

23 Q. So that person was replaced on or about the 25th of June 1992.

24 A. Yes, something like that.

25 Q. The second person who was commander of the camp, was that person,

Page 1292

1 in turn, replaced sometime around the 27th of July 1992?

2 A. I don't know exactly. We could not keep track of the -- of dates,

3 and we could not orient ourselves in that respect. So I wouldn't be able

4 to say exactly what date it was. We did not have a calendar. And we did

5 not have watches in order to be able to see what date it was.

6 Q. Just so that we can try and fix it, if you will assist me, please,

7 Witness E, you told the Office of the Prosecutor in your statement in 1995

8 that you had remained at Keraterm from 31st of May until the 8th of

9 August.

10 A. On the 5th of May. On the 8th of May [sic], I left the camp.

11 Q. The 8th of May or the 8th of August?

12 A. Of August.

13 Q. And just help me about this: Is this correct that the change from

14 the second commander to the third commander took place shortly after the

15 incident in Room 3 and about a week before you were transferred to

16 Trnopolje?

17 A. I did not understand the question. My apology.

18 Q. That's all right. I'll do it again. Can I just refresh your

19 memory from the two statements which you've made to the Office of the

20 Prosecutor. What you've told them was that in relation to the change-over

21 from the second to the third commander, that that event took place shortly

22 after the incident in Room 3 when people were killed, and about seven days

23 or thereabouts before your transfer to Trnopolje.

24 Does that refresh your memory as to when the change-over took

25 place, Witness E?

Page 1293

1 A. The first commander was there for about 20, 25 days. The second

2 commander came after him, and the last 7 days, 7, 8 days something like

3 that, that is when the third commander came.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 Did you learn the name of the third commander either at the time

6 or subsequently?

7 A. I only knew that he worked -- that he had worked in a shop. I

8 don't know what his name was. Actually, a lumber yard. I know that that

9 company was from Banja Luka, but I cannot recall it now.

10 Q. If I suggested the name Marinko Sandzak to you, would that ring a

11 bell?

12 A. I don't know his name because I had not known him before. He did

13 state his name and he told us that nobody would touch us while we were

14 there.

15 Q. And so that third person was in command when you left for

16 Trnopolje and supervised the closure of Keraterm and the transfer of

17 prisoners; is that correct?

18 A. Sikirica was also there with him.

19 Q. But by that time, the man you had been told was Sikirica was no

20 longer the commander, was he?

21 A. He was no longer the commander, no longer. He had taken over that

22 post.

23 Q. Indeed, I suggest, and you must deal with it, Witness E, that at

24 no time did he personally tell you or anyone else that he was commander of

25 the camp. The only thing he may have said was that he was commander of

Page 1294

1 security at Keraterm. That's correct, isn't it?

2 A. That is not true. When he came he said, "I'm the commander

3 here."

4 Q. Those were his words, "I'm the commander here." I'd like to move

5 on, please, Witness E, to the punishment group or the special treatment

6 group. Would this be correct that that was established by Zigic and Duca

7 around the 20th of June 1992?

8 A. I'll tell you one thing, I do not remember the dates and I

9 couldn't know the dates, but this group was set up after three or four

10 days, not after two or three.

11 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor in August of last year,

12 Witness E, was this: "Around 20 days after my arrival in Keraterm, the

13 guards established what they called the punishment group." Does that

14 refresh your memory as to what you've said in the past?

15 A. No. The punishment group was not set up then. It was set up

16 before, right after the arrival in the camp, three or four days later,

17 that's it.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. And this group came into being right then.

20 Q. Is this correct, Witness E, that the focus of the perpetrators who

21 were involved in that was against those firstly who were considered

22 extremists?

23 A. No. They were not Muslim extremists.

24 Q. You see, again what you told the Office of the Prosecutor was that

25 the basis for selection was those prisoners who were selected as

Page 1295

1 extremists on their arrival in Keraterm.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you understand by the phrase "extremist" or the concept of

4 "extremist," these categories of people: Those who were known to be

5 members of the SDA or activists in the SDA, people who they believed were

6 involved in military activity, and in particular people from Kozarac who

7 may have taken part in resistance at Kozarac?

8 A. I wouldn't know that is what they called them. I do not know how

9 they identified them. That young boy, that Kocijas, he did not belong to

10 any resistance or any party, but allegedly he had killed a guy who was a

11 Serb and that was why he was to be in that group.

12 Q. But the other type, the other categories of people, can you say

13 anything to confirm that that was how they focused their attention? In

14 particular, but not exclusively, on those kind of people?

15 A. I don't understand the question.

16 Q. I will put it to you again. Forget for a moment about the young

17 man you've spoken about just now. Is this correct, that by "extremists"

18 were meant, for example, people who were members of the SDA or were

19 activists in the SDA, people who had taken part in resistance fighting or

20 military activity, in particular people from Kozarac?

21 A. I don't know what they thought. I don't really know who was a

22 member of SDA or who wasn't, so I cannot say yes or no or why.

23 Q. Is it right that many of the group who were part of the special

24 treatment group were, in fact, from Kozarac?

25 A. Not all of them.

Page 1296

1 Q. But many of them were, weren't they, Witness E?

2 A. Yes, majority, I'd say.

3 Q. And is it within your knowledge that Duca Knezevic also came from

4 Kozarac?

5 A. I don't know. I don't really know where he comes from.

6 Q. When you were interrogated, Witness E, can you help us about

7 this: Was the nature of those questions about you personally?

8 A. Well, they asked me who I am, what I am, where I was born, where I

9 came from, where I'd served the army, if I had any weapons, if I carried

10 any weapons, if I knew who carried the weapons, who sold the weapons, if I

11 knew that there were weapons for sale, and things like that.

12 Q. Is this correct, that the people who were conducting your

13 interrogation were what were known as inspectors who had come from outside

14 the camp?

15 A. I don't really know where the people -- where these people came

16 from. I did know one of them, but I cannot place him really.

17 Q. Did they appear to be, as it were, professional policemen, used to

18 asking questions in this way? Would that be right?

19 A. Excuse me?

20 Q. Did the people who were interrogating you appear to you to be

21 professional policemen, for example, used to interrogating people?

22 A. I don't know. They wore uniforms, but I just don't know what they

23 were, policemen or military. I just don't know. But they wore military

24 uniforms.

25 Q. After people had been interrogated, Witness E, did that lead to

Page 1297

1 those who had completed the process of interrogation being moved from one

2 room to another?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is this correct - and if you don't know the answer, please

5 tell us - that the people who took the decision as to where people would

6 be moved, those were the people who had conducted the interrogations?

7 A. I didn't really understand that question, sorry.

8 Q. Yes. The people who took the decisions as to whether you should

9 be moved from one room to another, or indeed from one camp to another, did

10 you understand that that was -- those were decisions taken by the people

11 who had conducted the interrogations?

12 A. After the interrogation, they would move us from one room to

13 another. Two or three days later, or perhaps even the next day, depends,

14 some were called out to be sent to Omarska, to collect all their

15 belongings and go to Omarska.

16 Q. I'd like to turn now to the matter concerning Room 3, Witness E,

17 please. You saw none of the preparations for that incident; is that

18 correct?

19 A. No. I was asleep at the time. I'd just fallen asleep.

20 Q. Did you subsequently, or indeed at the time, learn that the

21 incident had been perpetrated by soldiers who had come from outside?

22 A. I do not really know who did that. I did not learn that. I do

23 not know who fired the shots or what.

24 Q. Did you learn anything of how many people had been involved in

25 perpetrating that incident?

Page 1298

1 A. No. I don't know. I don't know.

2 Q. From what you were able to hear, Witness E, would you accept that

3 it was at least one member of the Keraterm personnel who did what he could

4 to prevent and stop what was taking place?

5 A. I heard Kole shouting, "Stop, don't fight, fuck you, don't fire."

6 Q. And is this also right, Witness E, that you understood from what

7 you heard that, in part, he had tried to prevent and stop what was going

8 on by discharging a submachine-gun in the vicinity of the perpetrators?

9 A. Well, I don't know whether he fired or somebody else because I

10 could not see that. But I could identify the automatic rifle because

11 there is a difference between it and machine-guns or other rifles and then

12 I thought that it could be him.

13 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that the shooting stopped after the

14 intervention of Kole?

15 A. More or less.

16 Q. And would it be right to conclude from that fact that the

17 intervention that you had heard was therefore effective?

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand what my friend is trying to do, but

20 there is a point at which the speculation that's being called from the

21 witness goes beyond his realm of knowledge. He's told us what he knows.

22 What my friend is trying to do is get something that's for argument as

23 opposed to witness' argument.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we agree.

25 Please move on, Mr. Greaves.

Page 1299


2 Q. It's right, isn't it, Witness E, that Kole, on other occasions,

3 was responsible for preventing people who were not supposed to be at

4 Keraterm from coming into the premises?

5 A. I don't understand the question, I'm sorry. Could you rephrase

6 it, please?

7 Q. Yes. You were aware that Kole had, on occasions, prevented people

8 from coming into the Keraterm facility from outside?

9 A. I must say I don't remember that, but I do -- I must say that

10 during Kole's shifts there were no problems. We could sleep quietly and

11 everything when Kole was on duty. And if somebody came and hit an inmate,

12 then he would hit him and tell him to leave us alone.

13 Q. Is this right, that you told the Office of the Prosecutor in

14 August of last year that you remembered seeing soldiers coming to the gate

15 of Keraterm seeking to come in, wanting to come in, and Kole turning them

16 away and that he would swear at them and say that they would not come in

17 whilst he was on duty; do you recall that?

18 A. Yes, yes, yes, that's right. Yes, quite.

19 Q. And that on occasions, Zoran Zigic would be in the camp during

20 Kole's shift, but he would not mistreat people during that period.

21 A. He came as a visitor.

22 Q. Yes. And when he came during Kole's shift, Zigic did not

23 perpetrate any mistreatment; is that correct?

24 A. Kole did not allow any mistreatment.

25 Q. And during Kole's shift, the man Duca Knezevic would not come in

Page 1300












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Page 1301

1 at all.

2 A. I did not see him then. I don't remember.

3 Q. Help us about this, please, Witness E: Do you know or did you

4 know at the time in 1992 of somebody called Zivko Knezevic? Does that

5 name mean anything to you?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Just two bits of detail, please. The man you have identified as

8 Dusko Sikirica, you didn't see that person ever carrying weapons whilst he

9 was in the Keraterm facility; is that correct?

10 A. I did not.

11 Q. Can you help us about this: As far as inmates who were sick or

12 unwell, was there anybody who you believed to be suffering from epilepsy,

13 which you understood to be suffering from epilepsy?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it one person or more than one person?

16 A. More than one.

17 Q. Was one of those somebody called Nehru Garibovic?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Finally, these matters, Witness E, if you can help us, please.

20 During the time when you were detained at Keraterm, how many people do you

21 say were detained along with you?

22 A. I could not say, not the exact number. There were quite a

23 number. Many people passed through that camp. I should say about 1.200,

24 1.300 maybe. I wouldn't really know.

25 Q. Would this also be correct, Witness E, that of those who passed

Page 1302

1 through the camp, some were released completely to return to their homes.

2 A. During the first fortnight, yes. After interrogations, some were

3 released. After that, nobody was released.

4 Q. Can you say how many people were released in that way during the

5 first fortnight?

6 A. I wouldn't really know.

7 Q. During the time when you were in Keraterm, Witness E, would you

8 accept this: That all of the detainees were in the complete power of the

9 Serb authorities throughout the period?

10 A. Excuse me, did all?

11 Q. Yes. Throughout the period that you were detained at Keraterm,

12 would you accept that you and your fellow detainees were in the complete

13 power of the Serb authorities who had detained you?

14 A. Well, yes.

15 Q. And would you also accept that throughout that period, there was

16 nothing that would have prevented those same Serb authorities from killing

17 all of you en masse?

18 A. I simply fail to understand the question. I am at a loss.

19 Q. It's right, isn't it, that those, the Serb authorities could, if

20 they had wished, have killed all of you at any time?

21 A. Yes, that's true.

22 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours will just give me a moment, please.

23 I have no further questions. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, thank you. Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I

Page 1303

1 begin?


3 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

4 Q. Witness E, I should first like to ask you to tell us briefly --

5 I'm sorry, I have some problems with my headset -- to tell us briefly what

6 was life like in Bosnia in the 1980s?

7 A. It was perfect.

8 Q. You mean everybody lived peacefully, quietly, in harmony,

9 regardless of the ethnic origin?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. We can therefore conclude that that was the best time ever, at

12 least in our memory, isn't it so?

13 A. Yes, the 80s.

14 Q. At that time you were convicted for slandering, for offending the

15 former president Tito, isn't it?

16 A. Yes. Tito was involved, but no, I did not insult his memory.

17 Q. But what happened?

18 A. Well, I was in railway station, in a pub, and we were sitting and

19 drinking and there was a policeman with us. And they were singing some

20 song, and I said, "Well, that's not really how it is, you -- it's like

21 that." And he said, "What do you know about this song? What do you

22 want?" Right. And he tells me, "Well, if you know the lyrics of that

23 song, you sing it." And when he said that, I said, "Oh, fuck it. I've

24 just forgotten it." And then he said, "Oh, so you are using foul language

25 to speak about Tito and you this, you that." But I've never done that in

Page 1304

1 my life.

2 Q. A moment ago you told us that you were a member of the Liberal

3 Party. I do apologise. You told us a while ago that you were a member of

4 the Liberal Party, and just in a sentence will you tell us which were the

5 -- what was the basic political doctrine of that party?

6 A. You mean --

7 Q. Very briefly.

8 A. You mean -- well, I was just an ordinary member. I wasn't a

9 politician.

10 Q. Yes. I understand that you were a member, but you must have had a

11 reason to join that party?

12 A. Because everybody was in that, Croats and Serbs and Muslims and

13 all the others, and that's why I was there too.

14 Q. It is true that the Serbs took over the town of Prijedor without

15 firing a single bullet?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it is also true that you heard about that, as far as I

18 understood you, from the radio because the power had been cut off?

19 A. I was with a friend who used to work for a bakery up there, and

20 his name is Mladen Rabac, and he worked in a bakery, and I was with him,

21 that is I visited him from time to time. He would just say, "Why don't

22 you come over? Why don't you drop by?" And I did drop there and I was

23 there until 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning because the bakery was open --

24 open only at night, and I was carrying some -- carrying rolls or something

25 with me. And I saw some vehicles full of troops, but no plates, nothing,

Page 1305

1 just passing by. What they were doing, I really don't know. But when I

2 arrived home in the morning, then I learned that the SDS had taken over

3 power in Prijedor.

4 Q. So at that time, in Prijedor, the power had already been cut off,

5 is it, was cut off or you began to run into trouble with power supply

6 because you said that you had to use your radios because television was

7 not working?

8 A. Yes, that's quite true. There was no electricity.

9 Q. And in the months that followed, while you were detained in that

10 Keraterm, there was no electricity?

11 A. Well, at times there was; at times there wasn't.

12 Q. Could you tell us the frequency of power outings and the other,

13 and when you had the power?

14 A. I can't really tell you.

15 Q. You mentioned in your statement that in pre-war Bosnia there were

16 very many mixed marriages; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. And I should say around 70 per cent, isn't it; wouldn't you say?

19 What do you think? How many?

20 A. Well, had I ever got married, perhaps I would have known that.

21 Q. And it is quite true that in Prijedor people gave their children

22 names regardless of whether their children were Serb? They were often

23 given Croat names or the other way around? There were many such cases?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. And do you know what kind of a name is Damir, whose name is it?

Page 1306

1 A. No.

2 Q. It doesn't sound like a Croat name to you, does it?

3 A. I have a friend whose name is Jasmin and yet he's a Serb.

4 Q. If I understood you well, before the war, you all frequented the

5 same places, you all socialised and were -- and kept company to each

6 other, with some more, with some less, isn't it?

7 A. Yes, you could say that.

8 Q. And you used to see Kajin at all those places where you went?

9 A. Well, not at all the places where I went to, yes.

10 Q. But at some places you frequented you also saw him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that time none of you rank and file people even dreamed of

13 something might happen as what did happen a couple of weeks or couple of

14 months later?

15 A. Never. I didn't even know what was going on.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could we just go into private

17 session, please, for a moment?


19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1307

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [Open session]

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The barracks where you were taken was at that time controlled by

10 the Yugoslav People's Army or some Serb military forces, is that how would

11 you say?

12 A. That's what I already stated.

13 Q. When did you learn that Keraterm was used as a prison for Muslims

14 and people of other faiths and ethnic groups?

15 A. When I got there.

16 Q. And you had never heard -- you had not heard about that

17 previously. After you arrived at Keraterm, you were searched, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you did not know any one of those who searched you? Will you

20 please -- you nodded but we need a verbal answer for the record.

21 A. No.

22 Q. People who searched you were not Keraterm guards, the ones that

23 you would see later?

24 A. I don't know exactly. I did not know them. That was it.

25 Q. And later on you never met them, correct, if I understand you

Page 1308

1 correctly? That is, in the subsequent two months, you did not see them

2 there?

3 A. Let me tell you something. We had our backs turned to them. This

4 is what we had to do.

5 Q. At that time did you observe that some other military police or

6 paramilitary unit was part of the security at Keraterm?

7 A. At first some came to provide assistance at night.

8 Q. Were these members of the military police or members of the

9 Territorial Defence?

10 A. I think that it was the Territorial Defence.

11 Q. Did you know any one among these people?

12 A. Yes, I knew one, Savo. He unfortunately died.

13 Q. Do you know who was their commander, who was their leader?

14 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

15 Q. But I wouldn't be wrong if I said that they had their own

16 commander or superior person?

17 A. It is possible, but we were not in a position to know who was

18 doing what and --

19 Q. Today also, when asked by Mr. Greaves, you said - and you

20 previously stated that too - that in the first days not much was going on

21 in the camp?

22 A. To some people nothing particular happened, but to those who were

23 member of the punishment group, they did have something happen to them.

24 Q. When you say the first days, how many days do you have in mind, a

25 couple of days, five, six days?

Page 1309

1 A. I know that it is different -- interpreted differently. A couple

2 of days sometimes means two days, sometimes a full week, sometimes even

3 ten days, sometimes -- so it refers to different time frames.

4 Q. Very well. So people interpret differently what a couple of days

5 means. To you what did a couple of days mean? Let's say in the situation

6 when -- as when you mention it in your statement, what did you mean by a

7 couple of days?

8 A. Between two and five days.

9 Q. Thank you. I presume that upon your arrival at Keraterm, you very

10 quickly learned that there were guards there, that they were organising

11 some kinds of shifts; is that correct? Did you notice that in the -- that

12 at first there were two shifts?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would I be wrong if I said that -- that a person whom you called

15 Crni was in one of these shifts, in fact one of the shift's leaders?

16 A. Yes, but I don't know who he was and what he was. I didn't know

17 whether he -- who was the shift leader there, and I didn't know what he

18 was doing, but I knew that he was doing almost everything.

19 Q. And along with Crni, you also saw Zigic?

20 A. He and Zigic were there in the same shift most frequently.

21 Q. And did Zigic work as a guard at first, or you don't know that?

22 A. I don't know exactly whether he worked as a guard but he did -- he

23 was coming there, but I don't think that he worked there as a guard.

24 Q. And these shifts at first were 24-hour shifts, a full day, these

25 guards, one group, let's say Crni's group, and then another group would

Page 1310

1 come and stay for 24 hours? Was that so in these first days, as you

2 said?

3 A. I don't understand that question.

4 Q. Let me put it this way: At first when you said that there were

5 only two groups of guards, these guards worked in 24-hour intervals?

6 A. No.

7 Q. No? How long did they work?

8 A. Approximately 20 -- no, 12. Then some -- then they would go home

9 to get some rest, and the other group would come. The group that gave --

10 that provided assistance.

11 Q. A group for providing assistance?

12 A. Yes. Remember we talked about it.

13 Q. Oh, I remember. So they were not regular guards?

14 A. That is correct. They came at night.

15 Q. So in those first days, they provided security?

16 A. They provided assistance. For instance, like that friend of mine

17 Sava, and when he saw us there in the camp he started crying, threw away

18 the weapon, and went home.

19 Q. You said that later on, there were three shifts?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When, approximately, these three shifts became established?

22 A. They were also going 12 hours apiece, and then they would go home,

23 rest, and the next day they were the first shift, and then the second

24 shift, and those who had -- who were on the night shift would go and have

25 24 hours off to rest off.

Page 1311












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1312

1 Q. When were these three shifts established, approximately, in

2 relation to your date of arrival at Keraterm?

3 A. That's an awkward question, and a lot of questions have been asked

4 of me and I don't know if I can say 100 per cent.

5 Q. Of course I'm not asking you about the exact date, especially in

6 the light of what you have gone through there, and following nine years, I

7 understand fully that you cannot remember everything. I'm asking you for

8 an approximation. We know that everything you are saying is an

9 approximation given the amount of time that has passed.

10 A. Yes. Nine years have passed by, it's a lot.

11 Q. Of course. So please, if you can do your best to put it in time

12 for me.

13 A. Well, let me tell you.

14 Q. Can we say two -- after about two weeks?

15 A. Yes. Two, three weeks.

16 Q. Let's go back to another issue. When you arrived, you were in

17 Room 2?

18 A. Yes. This is what we started calling it later. It wasn't called

19 that at that time.

20 Q. So it was an internal designation that you introduced?

21 A. No, it wasn't really us. It was them. They designated it as 1,

22 2, 3, 4. As more and more prisoners, inmates arrived, they expanded. For

23 instance, when they were gathering people from Kozarac, then a large group

24 came and --

25 Q. Very well, we'll come to that later.

Page 1313

1 A. But for two days we were in Room 2 --

2 Q. And then you were moved to Room 1?

3 A. After interrogation.

4 Q. And after having stayed in Room 1 for a few days, you moved to

5 Room 4 and this is where you stayed until the end?

6 A. Yes.

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, with the cooperation of the

11 interpreters, we are going to be working until 5.00, so we are going to

12 take a break until -- a break at a quarter to 4.00 for 15 minutes.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. So along with -- you spent all that time with Witness B there, in

15 other words, you together came to Room 2, then to Room 1, and then

16 transferred to Room 4?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I assume that you were with Witness B throughout the day every

19 day? It would make sense.

20 A. Well, we did not hold hands.

21 Q. Of course. But you were there. Nobody was going there, he wasn't

22 going anywhere, you weren't going there, excluding interrogation of

23 course?

24 A. Occasionally one could go from one room to another room.

25 Q. How did you two move to Room 4?

Page 1314

1 A. I think he came to me and he said: "Do you want to come to Room

2 4?" I said "Why?" He said, "We're all going so why don't you come along

3 too."

4 Q. Do you know whether somebody had told him to go there, suggested

5 to go, or what?

6 A. They probably did, but I don't know. I didn't even know about it

7 until he mentioned it to me.

8 Q. Did three shifts start operating at the time when you moved to

9 Room 4 or perhaps a little bit before that time or a little bit after that

10 time? And as we are not saying things in -- putting things in an accurate

11 way --

12 A. You are saying that it's inaccurate. I cannot say that it's

13 inaccurate. I cannot know the exact time, the exact hour. We didn't have

14 a calendar or a watch.

15 Q. Well, this is why I'm trying to relate it to a certain event like

16 your move to Room 4. So was it around that time?

17 A. What event now?

18 Q. I'm sorry, I think that we had a misunderstanding. I'm going to

19 try to explain it to you again. My question to you is: Because you

20 cannot recall a date, which I understand and fully respect given the

21 amount of time that has passed, can we say that you moved to Room 4

22 approximately a day plus/minus, but around the time when three shifts

23 started operating?

24 A. When the people from Kozarac were gathered, this is when the third

25 room was established. There were too many of us in the first and second.

Page 1315

1 We couldn't breathe anymore. The air was too stuffy.

2 Q. Let's try it this way. Kozarac took -- happened in late May; is

3 that correct? They gathered these people around in late May, and in the

4 very first days of June, they were already there. They were already

5 detained.

6 A. I could not tell you exactly. These -- at that time, we were

7 in -- also in fear. We were a bit lost. Too lost to be able to say

8 that.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be the

10 right moment for a break.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it is. We'll take a break until 4.00.

12 Witness E, you are reminded not to discuss your evidence with anybody

13 during the break including members of the Prosecution team.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness E, you repeatedly said today that brothers Banovic were on

19 Crni's shift, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Will you tell me, please, will you please try to describe Crni

22 once again? What did he look like, how did he dress?

23 A. I think he was about 170 tall. I never measured him, so I can't

24 really know. And he was always in a black T-shirt, short sleeves, short

25 hair, dark, well-built.

Page 1316

1 Q. Did you used to see that man around the town before the war?

2 A. Once or twice perhaps, on a motorbike or something.

3 Q. What kind of a motorbike?

4 A. He rode a Kawasaki.

5 Q. Did you frequent Zvejzdas?

6 A. I wouldn't know.

7 Q. And where did you see him around the town, if you remember?

8 A. Somewhere near the fly-over.

9 Q. Tomo Prodan, does that ring a bell?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You don't know a man called Tomo Prodan?

12 A. I didn't really know people's names.

13 Q. Did you ever discuss a person called Tomo Prodan with your

14 brother? Perhaps he knew him.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the answer.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And what does this Banovic who used this baseball bat look like?

18 A. Well, he was on the short side with long hair.

19 Q. Was there anything characteristic about him, something else?

20 A. I couldn't really say now.

21 Q. You mentioned today you -- on several occasions you mentioned an

22 event or rather the incident with Jovo Radocaj, didn't you?

23 A. I know that his first name was Jovo. What was his last name, I

24 don't know.

25 Q. At the time when he was beaten, you stood in the doorway of your

Page 1317

1 dormitory and watched it, didn't you?

2 A. What do you mean? What does "doorway" mean?

3 Q. You were in the door, I mean the door frame?

4 A. Well, I was slightly over there.

5 Q. Where?

6 A. On the inside.

7 Q. So you -- as you testified today, you saw that Banovic hit --

8 Banovic hit Jovo with his bat 10 or perhaps 12 times?

9 A. Well, I didn't stand there all the time.

10 Q. But you saw him beat him, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And before that, if I remember well, you said today how he called

13 him out?

14 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the witness's answer.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness E, your answers are not being picked up

16 by the interpreter. Would you please move forward closer to the

17 microphone?

18 A. Will that be all right?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. A while ago you described how he was taken from Room 1 towards

22 your room, isn't it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There in front of your room is where the incident that we are

25 talking about happened. Will you please give us an answer? Will you

Page 1318

1 please say yes or no? Don't just nod your head because the interpreters

2 cannot interpret that.

3 A. I saw Banovic beat him when he brought him into that passage or

4 whatever.

5 Q. What passage?

6 A. Well, that passage of Room 4.

7 Q. He brought him from some other place?

8 A. Yes. He brought him there. He took him over to the weigh bridge.

9 Q. So they took him towards the weigh bridge from the direction of

10 Room 1?

11 A. From number 1 or from 2. No, from number 4 towards the weigh

12 bridge.

13 Q. Now, let us try to figure this out. This morning you said they

14 took him from the direction of Rooms 1 and 2 towards Room 4.

15 A. This morning I said they called him out from Room 4. He wasn't in

16 Room 1. He was in Room 4. And they took him up there, and then they beat

17 him on the way from there to here, from 1 to 4. I think that is what I

18 said.

19 Q. Right. And you said it was during Crni's shift?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And who carried Jovo into that room where you were?

22 A. They brought him into that passage there, and then they told three

23 or four of our inmates to carry him away.

24 Q. Do you remember one of those detainees who carried him in?

25 A. No.

Page 1319

1 Q. Then when you testified about Drago Tokmadzic's death, you said

2 how you saw a hearse take him away in the morning?

3 A. Well, not really in the morning. He first lay there for sometime

4 until they arrived.

5 Q. Did you see, perhaps, a woman, a physician come in the morning to

6 establish his death? Did you see any of the policemen who were not any of

7 the regular guards in the Keraterm there that morning? Will you please

8 say yes or no.

9 A. No, I did not see that.

10 Q. This morning you spoke about the incident involving Car. In the

11 beginning of your examination, you described in detail who beat him and

12 you said it was Ziga and Duca. Was Crni there?

13 A. Yes, Crni was there and Keli too.

14 Q. Today you told us about this event in detail, but later on, when

15 my learned friend from the Prosecution asked you about Kajin, you then

16 said, "Maybe," "Perhaps," "I think so," something to that effect, that you

17 also saw Kajin there.

18 You made several statements as it has already been established

19 about that, and today during your direct examination, until the Prosecutor

20 asked you about Kajin, you also told us about that without ever mentioning

21 this detail, and I'll read you some of that. This is a statement of the

22 20th -- no, let's start from the statement that you made in February 1995

23 which is three years after you left Keraterm.

24 You said as follows: "I saw Zigic and Duca beat Car. There were

25 present other guards, but I cannot remember the names and I cannot

Page 1320

1 describe others who were there. I was in Room 2. The beating took place

2 and I watched it with others from a distance of 16 metres."

3 That is what you said in February 1995. Then in August this year,

4 and at this interview the -- my learned friend from the Prosecution who

5 examined you today was present also, and you describe in detail the

6 beating of Car. "Crni, Zigic, Duca also took part in this." That is

7 identical as you told us today. You said, "There were also others who

8 beat Car, but I cannot remember who they were."

9 So in none of your statements, three years after that or the

10 statement that you made a few months ago, August last year, you never

11 mentioned Kajin.

12 A. No, I don't, because he was the commander there.

13 Q. So you -- the first time you mentioned that Kajin was present was

14 in the conversation with the Prosecutor a few days ago. How is it that

15 you suddenly remembered it?

16 A. Well, one can always remember something.

17 Q. But how did you remember?

18 A. I don't know, but I did.

19 Q. Wouldn't it be true that you are not sure whether he was there or

20 wasn't; would you allow such a possibility?

21 A. Kajin was there at the time.

22 Q. Tell me then where did Kajin stand?

23 A. I think as there was a bunker -- there was a bunker there and they

24 were beating him there, and he was behind them. From my angle I think he

25 was behind them.

Page 1321

1 Q. Will you take it slowly and tell us where did you stand? Where

2 was Car beaten? Where did you stand?

3 A. I was in dormitory 2.

4 Q. And who was there with you?

5 A. All the detainees.

6 Q. Was your brother there?

7 A. He was there too, but he wasn't with me.

8 Q. Was there somebody else?

9 A. Well, I'm telling you all the detainees were there, all of them.

10 Q. Right. Do you want me to give you names?

11 Q. No, there is no need to. So everybody watched it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they all saw what you saw?

14 A. Well, they should have, unless they had their heads down or

15 something.

16 Q. So where did this thing happen?

17 A. Right next to the bunker, next to the weigh bridge, the weigh

18 bridge is slightly in front of it. I'm talking about Keraterm. The weigh

19 bridge is in front of -- they were next to the bunker, whether they called

20 it the bunker or something, but it is -- that is where it happened.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 2B, please?

23 Q. Will you please -- will you show us on this photograph where did

24 you stand?

25 A. This is dormitory 2, and I was inside, perhaps two or three metres

Page 1322












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1323

1 away, to the right if you now face the building, right here where I'm

2 pointing.

3 Q. So two or three metres behind the door?

4 A. No, not behind the door because the door was open.

5 Q. But inside?

6 A. Yes, inside.

7 Q. And where were others? Behind you, next to you, in front of you?

8 A. Well, they were all there next to me, behind me. There was

9 perhaps one in front of me, only one, maybe one, perhaps just one. I

10 can't remember exactly.

11 Q. And where were Ziga, Duca, and Crni? Where were they?

12 A. You can't see it on this photograph.

13 Q. Let us then try with Exhibit 2G. Would that be more or less the

14 view from dormitory 2?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Will you have 2B again, please?

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave may we just look

18 for the right photograph? Could you please put this photograph -- show

19 this photograph to the witness?

20 Q. This is a photograph of a model. Can you recognise it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Right. Now, will you show on this photograph where was Ziga,

23 Crni?

24 A. Here, at this corner here. Can you see it, this door here? That

25 is Room 2. This is number 2, the door right next to this larger room, and

Page 1324

1 they were here, directly at the bunker, and as you look from the

2 dormitory, the bunker is to the left, and they were to the left of the

3 bunker. And that is in front of the bunker that he ran in circles and

4 carried this machine-gun.

5 Q. And now just tell me when is it that you saw Kajin?

6 A. Well, Kajin was there all the time. He was there all day.

7 Q. But you just -- you say all day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So perhaps you saw him before that and perhaps you saw him after

10 that?

11 A. He was there all the time, next to that bunker. They were all

12 there by the bunker watching Car circling.

13 Q. I'm not asking you about all of them. I'm asking about Kajin.

14 A. And I'm telling you that Kajin was there.

15 Q. Will you please show us exactly where is it that he stood when you

16 saw him?

17 A. Well, I do not know the time.

18 Q. I'm not saying the time. I'm asking about the place. That is

19 where he was all the time?

20 A. Yes, all the time.

21 Q. And how long did it all take?

22 A. I couldn't tell you that.

23 Q. Well, did it take a couple of minutes or --

24 A. Can't say. It could be couple of minutes and it could have been a

25 couple of hours. I really don't know.

Page 1325

1 Q. Very well. Thank you. In August were you interviewed in detail

2 about Kajin's role in that -- in Keraterm by the investigators, that is my

3 learned friend from the Prosecution? Did he ask you in detail about this?

4 A. Well, he was the shift commander at the time.

5 Q. That is not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you whether you spoke

6 in detail about Kajin's role in Keraterm in August when the investigators

7 interviewed you, visited you, headed by my learned friend?

8 A. Well, we discussed it. Whether it was in great detail or not, I

9 really don't know.

10 Q. But you answered all the questions about Kajin that the Prosecutor

11 asked you?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says yes, the interpreters believe,

13 because he's away from the microphone.

14 Q. But you answered to the best of your recollection at that point in

15 time?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters believe the witness said yes

17 because he is away from the microphone.

18 Q. And on that occasion, you were also asked details about Car?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Again, I ask -- the interpreters are having

20 difficulty hearing your answers, so please stay closer to the microphone.

21 A. My apologies.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Go ahead.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. On that occasion you were asked in detail also about the incident

25 concerning Car?

Page 1326

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And on that occasion you said who took part in that and who was

3 present?

4 A. Well, yes, but I couldn't remember all of them.

5 Q. For the last time, I'm asking you to explain it to us. How is it

6 that you remembered it on the 23rd of March, 2001, nine years later, and

7 after so many previous questions about Car and Kajin?

8 A. How? Well, I wouldn't know myself, but whatever, I just

9 remembered.

10 Q. Well, I put it to you that you are not sure that you saw Kajin

11 there and that you are now affirming something that you did not see or, at

12 best, what you are not sure about?

13 A. I do affirm that Kajin was there.

14 Q. Right. Let us move on to some other topics. You mentioned that

15 in Keraterm, Faca killed a man. What was that man's name?

16 A. I didn't mention that he killed a man. A man, relative of the

17 killed person came to me. He lived in Brezicani, and he said that Faca

18 had killed his relative in the WC.

19 Q. When I say "mentioned," I mean you mentioned it today during the

20 examination. I don't mean anything else. What was that man's name?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Perhaps I will refresh your memory if I tell you that his name is

23 Muharem Nadarevic?

24 A. Oh, perhaps I didn't understand what you said who it was who told

25 me that. Did you ask me who was killed or who told me that?

Page 1327

1 Q. Who was killed.

2 A. But Muharem Nadarevic wasn't killed.

3 Q. What was the name of the man who was killed?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Tell us, after the incident that you described, that is, after the

6 murder or the massacre, whatever you care to call it in Room 3, in the

7 morning Cupo came to your room and asked, "Are there any wounded?"

8 A. He did not enter the room. He was next to the edge of the

9 building, and he said then, "Are there any wounded?" And one guy who was

10 wounded by the ricocheted bullet casing said that he'd been wounded and so

11 he said that he was wounded.

12 Q. And at that point, Cupo's shift wasn't on duty, isn't it?

13 A. I remembered it later. I remember it later that they had taken

14 over the duty. I did not remember it at that time.

15 Q. But in your statement of 15th August, you said the following, "I

16 remember that in the morning after the massacre, Cupo Banovic turned up at

17 the doorway to my room and asked if there were any wounded."

18 A. Right.

19 Q. Next sentence, "I don't know why he was in the camp because his

20 shift was not on duty that morning." So when is it that you remembered?

21 Is it that you again remembered it a few days ago?

22 A. Not a few days ago, today.

23 Q. But this is the statement that you made in August last year?

24 A. That's right.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: There appears to be no French interpretation.

Page 1328

1 Do we have French interpretation? Yes. Yes, we now have French

2 interpretation. Please proceed.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. You and your brother told that man not to come out, but he wanted

5 to come out, I mean the wounded man.

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And that same evening, a new massacre took place, didn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that night, Crni was on duty?

10 A. Well, that was the shift. That's the shift, the one that stayed

11 on.

12 Q. So now let's try it this way. The second massacre took place the

13 next night; am I right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At what time of the night approximately?

16 A. Around 3.00 or thereabouts. That was it. I don't know exactly,

17 because I had no way of determining that.

18 Q. But -- and Crni's shift was on at that time. That is what you

19 said.

20 A. Well, I don't know exactly what shift. Perhaps it was another

21 shift that day and they came back nevertheless.

22 Q. You mentioned this incident that happened, and I am going back to

23 the pre-war situation. The incident that you had with Kajin in a

24 restaurant at the railway station, or what is it, a coffee shop or

25 something. There was a clash between the two of you, wasn't there?

Page 1329

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there was another guy with him. And who paid the piper to put

3 it that way?

4 A. They won.

5 Q. Did you exchange some blows, were there any fisticuffs or

6 something?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I read you two statements, and I conclude from them that Kajin was

9 the ones who fared worse.

10 A. Well, if you say so.

11 Q. In your first statement you said that you had an argument with

12 him. In the second one you said you had a fight, which one is right?

13 A. The second, we got into a fight.

14 Q. Your statement -- your August statement says, "Before the war I

15 knew him superficially, but once I gave him a beating. Once I beat him."

16 Is that correct?

17 A. Well, we got into a fight. Now who got the beating, really I

18 cannot say. But be that as it may, the two of them fled.

19 Q. Do you remember if you hit him once, more?

20 A. Well, I guess so. I can't really remember because it could have

21 been, I don't know, 12, 13 years ago.

22 Q. Could you remember where did you hit him? Do you -- can you

23 remember?

24 A. No, I can't.

25 Q. Well, can I then conclude that you held a grudge against one

Page 1330

1 another?

2 A. No, never. Nothing, nothing before that or after that. Except

3 that he refused to pay that woman for the use of lavatory. I told him,

4 "Why don't you pay that?" And then they jumped, "Why are you meddling?

5 Stop it." And that is how we came to fists.

6 Q. But on the first -- initially when you arrived at Keraterm, you

7 were afraid to meet face to face with Kajin?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Why?

10 A. Because earlier some men had come and, for instance, he slapped

11 him and others brought him out and beat him.

12 Q. So they were taking out revenge on people for what he had done?

13 A. Yes, I said for a slap.

14 Q. Is it true that Kajin did nothing to avenge himself on you?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Did he say that no one was to touch you?

17 A. He said as follows: "I am not one of those who will bear a

18 grudge." I don't know how to explain it. "So I'm not one of those who

19 will seek revenge."

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. So this happened between men. And he said, "Had you had weapons

22 on, I would have killed you, but while I was -- while I'm here, nobody can

23 touch you."

24 Q. Are you referring to the weapons used during the attack on

25 Prijedor?

Page 1331

1 A. Carrying our arms in general. I didn't even know about the attack

2 on Prijedor.

3 Q. After that, did you have some courage to get out after you talked

4 to him?

5 A. Yes. After that I had no problem.

6 Q. Until then you did not come out at all?

7 A. That was at the very beginning for the first two or three days.

8 Q. Did Kajin treat anyone else in this way, this fair and protective

9 way, if I can put it that way?

10 A. Well, he did not allow just anyone to be bothered.

11 Q. You mean was it only the people whom he knew, or he did not pay

12 attention, he did not discriminate?

13 A. He said those who were innocent, he said that those who were

14 innocent would not be bothered.

15 Q. In one of your statements of 1995, you said that Kajin was too

16 soft with the prisoners. What did you mean by that?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. Let me read it to you. The statement is from 1995, that is the

19 one from February. "I think that they believed that Kajin was too soft on

20 detainees, and he was relieved after I don't know how many days."

21 A. Most probably he was on the side of the people who had not done

22 anything. He was protecting them. He probably knew that some of these

23 people did not do anything or had nothing to do with some things. For

24 instance, that attack on Prijedor, on whatever these people called it, I

25 don't know what people did and who was involved in what. First of all, we

Page 1332












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1333

1 didn't even know why we were being taken to the camp.

2 Q. At that time you said Kajin allowed doctors to treat you?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. And we asked for pills, and in fact a man

4 who was missing an arm would come with medicines and other things.

5 Q. Did Kajin call him to come?

6 A. Yes. We told Kajin what we needed and then he did it.

7 Q. When Kajin was on duty, were there any problems -- and when he was

8 present, were there any problems about going to the toilet? Did you have

9 any problems in that regard? If you don't know, I'll just withdraw the

10 question.

11 You mentioned a moment ago that Kajin was present during another

12 incident when someone called Sistek -- was that Samir Sistek?

13 A. Yes. He was from Foca.

14 Q. When he was taken out. And Kajin was not present when he was

15 taken out?

16 A. He was there, to the side.

17 Q. No, no, no. I'm referring to the moment when he was called out

18 from the room, when he was taken out of the room, when Sistek and another

19 man were taken out, Kajin was not present?

20 A. He was present, off to the side.

21 Q. What do you mean to the side?

22 A. He was to the left.

23 Q. Can you please describe this to the left? To the left of what?

24 A. When I looked out the room, Room number 2, straight to the right

25 were Duca and Zigic, and I don't know how many were there. There was one

Page 1334

1 with a red beret, I didn't know how many men were there. We couldn't even

2 see all of them. And I saw first they made this Kocijas to sing some

3 songs and he did. And then it was, "Let's see, guys, how brave you are,

4 how you can fight." So they asked they fight each other.

5 Q. But who was it who was calling them out?

6 A. It was Zigic.

7 Q. And who was telling them, "Come on guys, let's see"? Who was

8 that?

9 A. Zigic.

10 Q. And who demanded that they fight each other?

11 A. Zigic.

12 Q. And what time of the day was that?

13 A. It was around the nightfall. I cannot say exactly whether it was

14 8.00, 9.00 or 10.00.

15 Q. Was that the time around the point when the shifts were changing?

16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you.

17 Q. How long did this last?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Approximately?

20 A. Approximately half an hour.

21 Q. Can you just tell me when did you recall that incident?

22 A. It sort of came to me, I don't know exactly, but I remembered it.

23 Q. When did it happen, on the 23rd of May? What incident -- I

24 apologise. Now, the incident I'm referring to now --

25 A. Oh, I've known that from the beginning when I first arrived, since

Page 1335

1 I was there.

2 Q. My question to you is --

3 A. Oh, you mean when I remembered?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Perhaps last year.

6 Q. Did you know about that incident in August last year?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When the Prosecutor asked you about Kajin in great detail and

9 comprehensively, why didn't you tell him that?

10 A. I didn't think of it. There are many things that I still haven't

11 said.

12 Q. Did he ask you in detail about Kajin?

13 A. He asked me approximately what shifts there were, who was shift

14 commander, whether Kajin was shift commander, whether he was shift

15 commander, camp commander, things like that.

16 Q. Did he ask you whether Kajin took part in any of the incidents?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. Why didn't you say it then, that -- what you said now?

19 A. Well, he didn't take part. He just observed it.

20 Q. But did he, my friend, ask you whether he was present? And

21 knowing that he is professional, I'm sure that he would have asked you

22 whether he was present at the incident.

23 A. I don't know. Maybe I made some kind of mistake, perhaps. I

24 don't know.

25 Q. You said a mistake. What does it mean? You did not remember?

Page 1336

1 A. I guess I did not remember at the moment.

2 Q. How long did this interview last?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know exactly.

4 Q. Did this interview last half an hour, 15 minutes? Your interview

5 with the -- my learned colleague who examined you today?

6 A. You mean --

7 Q. No, no. I'm not referring to the examination today. The

8 interview with the Prosecutor in August last year.

9 A. I don't know, five or six hours.

10 Q. And in these five or six hours of conversation and recollection,

11 you could not remember what you just told us today?

12 A. Questions are one thing and answers are another thing. A person

13 forgets things.

14 Q. Let me sum up. The same person asked you the same question and

15 you gave different answers?

16 A. I recalled what I had seen. I did not lie about anything. And I

17 did not say anything that was untrue but only things that I remembered and

18 that I saw.

19 Q. Today you said this: During the first days, at first, Kajin was

20 the camp commander?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then when I asked you, when I asked you to explain to me what the

23 first days or the beginning meant to you, you said that it could have been

24 a couple of days or five or six days, correct?

25 A. Yes. It was couple of days or approximately five to six days.

Page 1337

1 Q. When you said the first days you meant?

2 A. When we first came to the camp.

3 Q. So the first couple of days are the first five or six days?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. To my learned friend, Mr. Greaves, you said that this was 25 days?

6 A. From where?

7 Q. That Kajin was the camp commander for 25 days?

8 A. I said that in the first days there were no problems, that we

9 were --

10 Q. I'm sorry, I wasn't asking you about problems. I was asking you

11 about who the camp commander was. You said five or six days, then about

12 an hour ago you said 25 days?

13 A. I said that he was relieved of duty 20 -- I'm saying 25 days

14 before he was relieved of duty.

15 Q. Let me try -- perhaps we don't understand each other.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With the indulgence of the Trial

17 Chamber, I think this is an important point. I would like to take it from

18 the top.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, if you can do it quickly, yes.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

21 Q. This morning you said that Kajin was the commander at Keraterm in

22 the first days, in the beginning. Then when I asked you -- when I asked

23 you to explain what the first days -- what the beginning was, you said

24 five to six days; is that correct?

25 A. You asked me what it means a couple of days. That's all you asked

Page 1338

1 me.

2 Q. I had asked you and we discussed it at some length, what it meant

3 to you the couple of days and the first days?

4 A. Yes, and I explained it to you.

5 Q. When we bring these two together, the first days, and what it

6 means to you, the first days or the first couple of days, we come to Kajin

7 being the commander for five or six days or I don't understand you at

8 all.

9 A. Kajin was the commander until Sikirica arrived.

10 Q. That is not in dispute, we agree on that.

11 A. I think it went on longer.

12 Q. What I'm interested in knowing is exactly how much time?

13 A. We did not have the calendar or a watch. I can say one, two,

14 five, 15, 50 days. To me it was all the same.

15 Q. You said in the beginning in the first days --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, I think we -- I think you've

17 covered that sufficiently. You have been on this point for quite some

18 time.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your indulgence and with my

20 utmost respect, if you can indulge me for a couple more questions only.

21 Just to try to clarify it.


23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that in the first days at the beginning, the command --

25 he was the commander, and then you said that it was 25 days. You spent a

Page 1339

1 total of two months in Keraterm. For you, the beginning is the first half

2 of your stay in Keraterm?

3 A. He was there from the first day when we entered and the next day

4 until the evening, and then in the evening he was relieved by Sikirica. I

5 don't know how many days it was. I don't know. We can say -- it's very

6 thought-involving this whole thing.

7 Q. Very well. Let's move on. At first who were the shift

8 commanders?

9 A. Kajin was, in this one shift, and I don't know about the others.

10 I don't know about the other two shifts.

11 Q. At first were you locked up by Kajin and then the next night by

12 Crni?

13 A. I cannot recall now, but the door was closed. I don't know

14 whether the door was locked.

15 Q. In these first days, did you see Kajin at night?

16 A. Perhaps at first until they got organised. I don't know exactly.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Your Honours.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. When Sikirica arrived, how many times did you see Kajin after

21 that?

22 A. I don't know exactly, once, twice.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Just one moment, please.

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1340

1 Q. In your statement from August last year, you said this: "After

2 that, I saw Kajin in the camp on only one more occasion. Perhaps he came

3 more often."

4 A. After?

5 Q. I'm asking after Sikirica.

6 A. Perhaps once. He may have come more often.

7 Q. Just three quick questions. In the beginning, if you can tell me,

8 you who were detained there, did you receive food from your homes? Did

9 somebody come to the gate to deliver something?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you perhaps remember one occasion when a soldier drove up to

12 the camp and pulled out a zolja and tried to fire it at you inside?

13 A. I don't recall.

14 Q. And can you tell me one more thing: Do you remember whether there

15 was some special lighting in Keraterm? Were there any floodlights?

16 A. After that massacre, yes, there were some floodlights.

17 Q. Do you recall whether Zigic was also detained, locked up in one of

18 these rooms at Keraterm?

19 A. I don't recall that.

20 Q. Do you remember a person named Maroslic whom Zigic released from

21 prison in exchange for money?

22 A. I don't know who that person is.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, thank

24 you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

Page 1341

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, before Mr. Vucicevic starts, I just

2 wondered, in light of the extensive cross-examination on statements which

3 the witness didn't have an opportunity to see, and because there may be

4 some issues of credibility that the Court may want to take into account as

5 a result of cross-examination, whether the statements to which the witness

6 was cross-examined on ought not now be marked as exhibits in these

7 proceedings, especially in relation to allegations of recent recollection

8 of events and as you know from the proofing the document that we have

9 provided, the sources have been provided in terms of where that was

10 provided.

11 I think it's important for the Court that these statements to

12 which reference has been made ought be marked as exhibits.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. We agree. Certainly. I'd like to

15 see them.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't know -- I think we

17 have copies now, but otherwise we can certainly provide them by tomorrow

18 morning, but we may have enough copies now to have them marked.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can do that later.

20 Mr. Vucicevic --

21 MR. VUCICEVIC: I will try to finish in five minutes.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think tomorrow morning. Have the night to

23 reflect and come back refreshed.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It will be good for both

25 the witness and myself.

Page 1342

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, certain.

2 We are going to take the adjournment now.

3 Witness E, you are reminded not to discuss your evidence with

4 anybody including the members of the Prosecution team. We adjourn until

5 9.30 tomorrow.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

7 at 4.57 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday

8 the 29th day of March, 2001, at

9 9.30 a.m.