Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1614

1 Tuesday, 3 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. At the close of the proceedings

8 yesterday, I believe I finished my questions of this witness with one

9 minor housekeeping matter which I had not attended to and that was the

10 tendering of the book and the copy as an exhibit, and I would ask the

11 Court for that, and that's the only thing that I believe I've left to do

12 with this witness at this time.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. May we have a number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 23.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Should the photocopy be marked as 23A just in case,

16 because not everybody has a copy of the entire book?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the practice?

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Okay. Fine.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's useful to have. 23A.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

22 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

Page 1615

1 Q. Mr. Arifagic, can you help me, please, about your involvement in

2 any way before the war in politics? Were you so involved?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you been involved since the war?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You did your national service in the JNA around 1979, 1980,

7 sometime around there?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And what branch of the military were you involved in during your

10 service?

11 A. This was the infantry branch and special sabotage units.

12 Q. And did you -- after completing your national service, did you go

13 on to the JNA reserve, and did you keep up that commitment?

14 A. No.

15 Q. After you were released from Trnopolje in October 1992, did you

16 subsequently serve in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. No. I -- in October of the same year, I left for Norway.

18 Q. And can you help us about this, please: Do you have any sort of

19 relationship or have you ever had with the intelligence and security

20 services of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Turning now to late 1991 and early 1992, at that period, Croats

23 and Muslims started to refuse to answer call-up to the JNA; is that

24 correct?

25 A. I think that Croats and Muslims in the Prijedor area refused to go

Page 1616

1 to the call-up in order not to go to the war in Croatia.

2 Q. And was that pretty well universal amongst Croatian and Muslim

3 men, that they didn't answer the call-up?

4 A. I think that it was universally accepted, and from what I knew,

5 there was a direction from the government in Sarajevo that we did not need

6 to go to Croatia.

7 Q. As a result of not answering the call-up and because of desertions

8 from the JNA, was that the cause that the JNA became dominated by Serbs?

9 A. I don't know what the reason was that it had become the Serb army,

10 but I would not call a desertion a refusal to join a certain army to go

11 and carry out an aggression against another country. I don't think that

12 that is desertion.

13 Q. At around that time, you observed, did you not, a build-up of JNA

14 troops in the Prijedor area; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It's right, isn't it, that those were either in part or, in fact,

17 wholly troops who were being re-deployed from Croatia as a result of the

18 withdrawal of the JNA from Croatia?

19 A. I didn't say that, because I was not interested in the military

20 and political affairs. What I could see were military columns that were

21 moving through, and I knew that this was not an usual phenomenon in our

22 area.

23 Q. Of course, military preparations in the Prijedor area were not

24 just carried out only by Serbs, were they?

25 A. I don't know what you're referring to.

Page 1617

1 Q. Well, the Muslims were organising themselves militarily, weren't

2 they?

3 A. That organisation boiled down exclusively to the protection of the

4 areas where we lived. If you referring to an organisation as something

5 that was set up in order to carry out an aggression, then there was no

6 such organisation, no.

7 Q. Prior to the 31st of April, 1992, guns were being brought into

8 Muslim areas, weren't they?

9 A. It is possible that there were weapons in that period, because all

10 sides were bringing them in, and if they were brought in, that was done by

11 the military.

12 Q. For example, hand-held antitank weapons for the use of infantry,

13 like the Zolja, that was the sort of thing that was being brought in,

14 wasn't it, by Muslims?

15 A. If they had them, then they could only have bought it from the

16 Yugoslav People's Army. They could not have bought it from any other

17 source.

18 Q. Not being brought in from abroad, the international arms market?

19 Did you hear about that?

20 A. From what I know, Kozarac was completely blocked, so I don't know

21 where it could have come from.

22 Q. We are talking about the period before April, 1992, Mr. Arifagic.

23 It's right, isn't it, that there were also extra food supplies were

24 brought into the Kozarac area? Do you accept that?

25 A. I did not hear about that, and I was busy building my family

Page 1618

1 home. Perhaps for your information, just 20 days before the aggression, I

2 had completed it, and then 20 days later, it burned down.

3 Q. And did you hear of extra sanitary and medical supplies being

4 brought into the Kozarac area?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When was the Crisis Staff formed in Kozarac?

7 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. I don't even know who the

8 members were. I know what people were saying, that this, the Crisis

9 Staff, did exist and that Kozarac should be organised exclusively as

10 defence, that we should not touch anyone, that we would try to negotiate

11 with Prijedor in order to avoid the conflict. Our interest in any event

12 was to prevent conflict.

13 Q. You say that you didn't know who they were. At one stage, when

14 you were guarding the post at Balte, you were able to communicate with the

15 Crisis Staff. Didn't you know whom you were communicating with,

16 Mr. Arifagic?

17 A. Yes. At that time, that was on the eve of the attack, I contacted

18 Captain Cirkin and Becir Medunjanin.

19 Q. Were they members of the Crisis Staff?

20 A. Probably were, given their positions.

21 Q. What sort of arms and ammunition were available to the people who

22 were engaged in the military activities on the Muslim side?

23 A. For the most part, these were hunting weapons.

24 Q. How many antitank weapons were there?

25 A. At the location where I was, there was nothing. In fact, tanks

Page 1619

1 could not even reach this village where I was, Javori. This village is

2 partly in a forest and it borders the Baltici village. We simply wanted

3 to prevent anyone from entering it.

4 Q. So that if tanks wanted to reach -- couldn't reach that area,

5 there would be no point in having antitank weapons there; is that right?

6 A. They could not reach that village, but in other areas of -- along

7 the Prijedor-Banja Luka stretch, they could approach.

8 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please?

9 Q. Other preparations were made in the Kozarac area, such as

10 Zemunica, which are underground shelters; is that right?

11 A. Yes. People were doing that on their own initiative in case of

12 shelling so that they could protect themselves and their own.

13 Q. Were they also prepared on the instructions of the Crisis Staff?

14 A. I think that most part of that was done on people's own

15 initiatives.

16 Q. What sort of uniform did you have when you were guarding the

17 village?

18 A. You mean personally myself?

19 Q. You and your fellow Muslims who were engaged in this activity?

20 A. In the area where I was, people were mostly wearing civilian

21 clothes.

22 Q. Are you able to say what role the Crisis Staff played in Kozarac

23 exactly?

24 A. I -- according to me, this is my opinion, I think that they were

25 involved in the negotiations with the people in Prijedor in order to

Page 1620

1 attempt to prevent any conflict between people in Kozarac, in other words

2 so that we do not be attacked and that we prevent the outbreak of war.

3 Q. It would have been obvious, would it not, by early May, 1992, to

4 anyone carrying out any sort of reconnaissance of Kozarac, that there was

5 a substantial number of armed men in the area?

6 A. I don't know what men you're referring to, if you're talking in

7 general, there was a huge number of men who were JNA men, and they were

8 billeted at Benko.

9 Q. We are talking, Mr. Arifagic, about people on the Muslim side. In

10 due course, when Kozarac was attacked by the Muslims, you were able to

11 muster some 750 men to do that. It must have been obvious, mustn't it, by

12 May, 1992, that there were a substantial number of Muslim men armed and

13 ready to take military action? That's right, isn't it?

14 A. It was not a military action, and it wasn't 750 men. If we had

15 750 men ready for a military action, everything would have been

16 different. So this was -- all it was was men trying to protect their

17 families. At that time, those who had small children and wives in the

18 Kozarac area had to do something in order to try to protect them.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many men were there, Mr. Arifagic? You said

20 it wasn't 750 men. How many men were there?

21 A. I don't know directly what the gentleman is referring to. Kozarac

22 had 24.000 inhabitants. People were on duty in -- around their area. I

23 don't know what the gentleman is referring to, to whom.


25 Q. Well, Mr. Arifagic, in your statement that you made to the Office

Page 1621

1 of the Prosecutor in October 1994, you said that in respect of mounting a

2 fresh attack, "We divided into three groups of about 250 people in each

3 group." That makes 750. Where did all those people come from?

4 A. These were groups of men who managed to gather at Mount Kozara

5 after the fall of Kozarac after meeting with Captain Cirkin and Becir

6 Medunjanin. Men were talking about what to do. Some of them wanted to

7 cross Mount Kozara and going to Croatia, and for the most part, these were

8 men who were civilians.

9 One part of the men decided that a fresh attempt should be made to

10 take control of the town, and the number of people who took part in the

11 attack on Kozarac was a much, much smaller number. And from what I know,

12 nothing was done. Nothing was accomplished.

13 Q. We'll come back to that in a moment. The first fighting which

14 occurred was on the 24th of May, 1992, around Donji Garevci; is that

15 right?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, we seem to be spending a considerable

18 amount of time on the issue of the armed conflict. I understand that it's

19 an issue that the Prosecution has to prove, but we don't have to prove as

20 to who started it. I don't believe who started it is relevant. So my --

21 are my friends now belatedly admitting that there is an armed -- that was

22 an armed conflict? Because if so, I think these questions are becoming

23 irrelevant, especially if we get to the issue of who seems to be

24 responsible for it.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think it may be relevant to the kind of Defence

Page 1622












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Page 1623

1 that's being mounted.

2 Mr. Greaves.

3 MR. GREAVES: It's also relevant, in our submission, to the

4 legitimacy of detaining people of military age during an armed conflict,

5 and it goes to the issue of genocide. The evidence in the case thus far

6 is that people of military age were being detained and this is the reason

7 why they were being detained. Not genocide, this reason.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.

9 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I asked you about the initial outbreak of fighting

11 on the 24th of May, 1992. Is it correct that that occurred near Donji

12 Garevci?

13 A. Yes, in the direction of Donji Garevci and Orlovci, but what it

14 was, it was an attack on -- on -- from the Serb part. The shells started

15 falling. It wasn't a direct confrontation, conflict.

16 Q. And it's right, in due course, that you were able to hear from the

17 radio that Serbs were approaching a checkpoint at Jakupovici; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes. This took place later.

20 Q. And the orders were then given to attack the tanks without further

21 warning; is that correct?

22 A. I think that Captain Cirkin issued that because people who were in

23 the checkpoint at Jakupovici were there because they were not going

24 anywhere. They were not attacking the tanks or the military that were

25 coming. The tanks and the troops were probably coming to attack and

Page 1624

1 destroy the village, so the people were defending themselves.

2 Q. So that we go quite shortly through this, it's right, isn't it,

3 that over a period of about three or four days there was substantial

4 amount of fighting in the Kozarac area? Do you accept that?

5 A. I wouldn't call it fighting. It was an advance of the Serb

6 troops, and we were simply withdrawing towards the centre of Kozarac. And

7 after these men gathered in the centre of Kozarac, they surrendered.

8 Q. Well, just help us about this, please. The 750 people of whom we

9 have talked, those people all took part in an attack on Kozarac, did they

10 not?

11 A. No, not all of them. It was a group of 750 men who gathered at

12 the foothills of Mount Kozara, but the number of those who took part in

13 the attack was much smaller. And it wasn't an attack. When the tanks

14 opened fire, they immediately withdrew.

15 Q. What I'd like to establish is that Kozarac having been taken by

16 the Serbs, there was an agreement amongst those of you who had got away to

17 carry out a counter-attack; is that correct?

18 A. I don't understand what you're trying to say about the agreement

19 to carry out a counter-attack. We tried to --

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Arifagic, we will get on more quickly -- don't

21 bother to argue with counsel. Don't bother to argue with counsel. But

22 that appears to have been your evidence.

23 And, Mr. Greaves, it is sometimes --

24 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: -- not really worth it to go over what witnesses have

Page 1625

1 said. It just leads to this sort of pointless argument. I think we've

2 got the position.

3 MR. GREAVES: All right. Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm

4 grateful to Your Honour for that piece of assistance.

5 Q. In due course, Mr. Arifagic, you were able to find out something

6 about your father, that he'd been given some form of military

7 certificate. What was the nature of that certificate?

8 A. What I learnt later, when I found out the whereabouts of my

9 family, that my father was in Trnopolje, I think that it was the Red

10 Cross, that he had received a certificate and with this certificate he

11 could leave to go to the village from where his wife was.

12 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that that was a certificate given to him

13 by the Serb authorities?

14 A. Yes. They issued it to him at that time.

15 Q. And in particular, it was given to him because he was over the age

16 which was considered to be military age. Do you accept that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you were eventually detained, it's right, isn't it, that

19 those who were detained at the same time as you were men of military age

20 and capability; do you accept that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Between your detention on the 14th of June, and your arrival at

23 Omarska, you had property stolen from you; is that correct?

24 A. You're referring to the property that was taken away from me, like

25 the house?

Page 1626

1 Q. No. While you're on your way from being detained to Omarska,

2 you --

3 A. Oh, yes, you're referring to -- yes, my watch, my gold chain,

4 these things were taken away from me.

5 Q. So all of your valuables were removed from you before you got to

6 Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you got to Omarska that day, was it obvious that there was no

9 room for you at Omarska?

10 A. That explanation, I believe it was while we were still on the bus,

11 simply the notice came, the rumour arrived, that there was no room for

12 us. At that time we did not know where they would take us, but be that as

13 it may, we were taken away to Keraterm.

14 Q. On the -- was it one bus or more than one bus that was in your

15 convoy going to Omarska and then to Keraterm?

16 A. There was one bus.

17 Q. How many people on the bus in all?

18 A. I think about 50 or maybe 60.

19 Q. When you got to Keraterm and were placed in the room, how many

20 people in all were in the room?

21 A. I would say about 250, 300 at that particular moment.

22 Q. And during the course of your stay in Keraterm, what was the

23 maximum number, as far as you could ascertain, of people detained in all

24 the facility?

25 A. I can only speak about Room 2. I think the largest number was

Page 1627

1 500, 550 men.

2 Q. Very briefly, concerning the beating after your arrival, it's

3 right, isn't it, that it was soldiers, i.e., military people, who were

4 doing that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the focus of their dislike of you was the suggestion that you

7 were Green Berets, in other words, members of the Muslim special forces?

8 A. I don't know if Green Berets are Muslim forces, but that was the

9 reason for them to beat me.

10 Q. Concerning the person who you were told was named Sikirica, you

11 told us yesterday that you had seen him before the war. Can you help us

12 as to this? Why did you say, when you made your statement in 1994 to the

13 Office of the Prosecutor, "I had only ever seen him in the camp"?

14 A. I saw him in the camp, but I also used to see him before the war.

15 He'd be passing by in the street and I simply knew him.

16 Q. But that being so, why did you say, "I had only ever seen him in

17 the camp," when you gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

18 two years after these events?

19 A. Perhaps I did say that, but I do remember seeing that man before.

20 Q. Are you able to recall now who it was who told you that his name

21 was Sikirica?

22 A. I think it was men who were in dormitory 2. It was mostly people

23 from Baska, from Prijedor.

24 Q. Are you able now to recall when it was you first saw the man you

25 described as Dusko Sikirica when you got to Keraterm?

Page 1628

1 A. I don't think I can remember the exact date.

2 Q. Now, in due course, you were taken to the hospital. It's right,

3 isn't it, that the man Dosen was involved in those arrangements for

4 sending you to hospital?

5 A. That's right. I think one has to be realistic. He is the only

6 one I can thank that I did go to hospital and thus survived. Of course,

7 it was unfortunate that Zigic was on the -- in the same vehicle, but it is

8 he that I have to thank for sending me there.

9 Q. It's right also, is it not, that Dosen asked you who it was who

10 had beaten you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You had a pretty fair idea of who it was, at least one of those

13 who had been involved in beating you, didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Despite knowing who it was, you lied to Dosen and said you did not

16 know who it was who had beaten you, didn't you?

17 A. They -- no, I did not lie. I could have said it but in a camp,

18 when you are beaten, I think it's best to keep silent, and he's very well

19 aware of that and we understand one another. That is how it was. I

20 simply shrugged my shoulders and he helped me go.

21 Q. But in the absence of telling him who it was, he could not take

22 any steps against the person who had done it to you, could he?

23 A. That's true. Perhaps I could have said who that was and then that

24 same day or that night, I could have been then taken out and -- so it was

25 a golden rule, just keep silent.

Page 1629

1 Q. At the hospital, it's right, isn't it, that there was a Muslim

2 doctor on duty?

3 A. I believe so. As we were in the waiting room at the entrance to

4 the hospital, he approached us and he talked with us, with that group of

5 camp inmates.

6 Q. So it would seem, would it not, from that, that not all Muslims

7 had been dismissed from their posts in the services available in the

8 Prijedor area; would you accept that?

9 A. I don't know the area of Prijedor. What I can say is that at that

10 moment, that man who was a Muslim was in the hospital.

11 Q. Turning now to the beating of Emsud Bahonjic, it's right, isn't it

12 that Zigic had made the specific allegation about him that he was the

13 sniper who tried to kill a relation of Zigic's; do you recall that?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And that was one of the reasons why Zigic got involved in beating

16 Emsud Bahonjic; is that right?

17 A. Yes. That was his -- that was -- he said that that was why.

18 Q. Would it also be right that the people from -- who had been

19 detained from Kozarac were singled out because of the resistance which had

20 taken place at Kozarac?

21 A. I know nothing about that, and I cannot say whether that was the

22 reason, but people from Kozarac were, on the whole, beaten and mistreated

23 more than others.

24 Q. There was a second group taken to hospital. Were there any other

25 groups whilst you were in Keraterm who were taken to hospital for

Page 1630

1 treatment, apart from the two groups that you've told us about?

2 A. I think on yet another occasion, a doctor came and examined some

3 people, but it was eight or nine years ago, so I can't really remember

4 everything.

5 Q. Turning now, please, if you will, to the beating and killing of

6 Drago Tokmadzic, would you accept that the reason that he was singled out

7 was because he was an active police officer from Ljubija?

8 A. I don't know. I know that we were already in a camp for some

9 time, and I can say what Drago told me when they were brought to Room 2,

10 that they had signed the loyalty to the Republika Srpska in the Ministry

11 of the Interior, that they were performing their duties as usual, but that

12 on that particular day there they had been disarmed and brought to

13 Keraterm.

14 Q. You've described someone else who was beaten as having the name

15 Fikret, at about the same time. Do you think you may have mistaken the

16 name of Fikret and, in fact, it was somebody called Esad Islamovic, who

17 was also a policeman from Ljubija?

18 A. I don't know. I don't think so. I know that they were brought

19 together, that they were beaten together, that Drago did not come back,

20 and that man's name, I think, is Fikret.

21 Q. Your father arrived at Keraterm, and it's right, isn't it, that

22 before he had -- before his arrival, he had been ill-treated? In other

23 words, the ill-treatment took place outside the camp?

24 A. He was maltreated as he was being brought to the camp. And

25 perhaps we can now go back to what you asserted earlier. At the time when

Page 1631












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Page 1632

1 he was arrested in that village, when he got there with the certificate,

2 he showed the certificate, but the soldier just tore it up, said, "This is

3 not worth anything," and that is how he ended. So that this certificate

4 for men who were not militarily active did not help him.

5 He was beaten again. He spent 15 days in the camp, and he was

6 then taken back to Trnopolje, that is, to the very same place where this

7 certificate had been issued to him.

8 Q. You were interrogated on the 10th of July, 1992, and when you were

9 taken for your interrogation, you were taken, I think, by Kajin's younger

10 brother; is that right?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. May we gather from that that the role of the guards at Keraterm

13 was simply to escort detainees from the rooms downstairs, upstairs to the

14 rooms where interviews were taking place?

15 A. I think that Kajin Jr.'s role was to take me there and escort me,

16 but the role of other guards was to guard us, to watch us round the clock;

17 that is, we were under their control and command.

18 Q. I put the question badly, and I apologise for so doing.

19 In relation to the interrogations which were taking place

20 upstairs, Mr. Arifagic, and the guards who were at Keraterm, the guards

21 did not take part in the interrogations, did they?

22 A. In the room that we were taken to, they did not, at least not in

23 my case. The man who interrogated me was someone whom I had never seen

24 before, whom I never saw in the compound among the guards.

25 Q. You were interviewed just by one person. Did you know who he

Page 1633

1 was?

2 A. By sight perhaps, but no particulars. He interrogated me and ...

3 Q. He was interested, was he not, in particular in your -- whether

4 you had taken part in politics before the war and whether you'd taken part

5 in fighting; is that right?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Turning now to the man Cupo Banovic, it's right, isn't it, that he

8 spent a lot of time extorting money from prisoners? Do you recall that?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. And there was another guard, Sahadzija, who was engaged in

11 stealing watches from prisoners?

12 A. No, he wasn't stealing them. He only demanded that watches be

13 turned over to him.

14 Q. Well, whether it's stealing or turning them over, he ended up with

15 prisoners' watches; is that right?

16 A. Quite so.

17 Q. The Room 3 incident, Mr. Arifagic, at some stage you heard an

18 order for people to lie down. It's right, isn't it, that you don't know

19 who issued that order?

20 A. We were locked in the room and the order came at that moment. I

21 did not know who the order came from, but whatever the case, we were

22 ordered to lie down and not to move and to keep silent.

23 Q. The -- after the incident, the following day there were people who

24 came to the camp, one of whom was Simo Drljaca. It's right, isn't it,

25 that he was a well-known figure in Prijedor? Do you accept that?

Page 1634

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Indeed, you had known him before the war as a former communist who

3 was involved in the police service?

4 A. Yes. I knew him by sight. That was a household name because he

5 was very active politically.

6 Q. There was an older man with him; is that correct?

7 A. I think so, yes. I think there was a man with him.

8 Q. And was that someone you had seen on a regular basis in Keraterm?

9 A. I think that Dusko Sikirica was accompanying him, but the older

10 man who was with him, he was not somebody that I normally saw.

11 Q. You didn't normally see him but you did see him on occasion before

12 that day?

13 A. That man, you mean, that elderly man who was -- no, I don't think

14 so.

15 Q. And I suggest to you, and if you're able to assist us with this,

16 do so, that that older man's name was Zivko Knezevic.

17 A. That name tells me nothing.

18 Q. The older man, was he someone who you saw on any occasion giving

19 orders in the camp?

20 A. I do not remember anything.

21 Q. How were the -- Simo Drljaca and this older man, how were they

22 dressed on that occasion?

23 A. Simo Drljaca was in, well, what we call police camouflage uniform,

24 which is a combat uniform, the one that you use in war. The other one was

25 in a military uniform. I can't remember that exactly. But Simo Drljaca

Page 1635

1 was wearing a blue camouflage uniform.

2 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you considered that the conditions at

3 the camp were totally chaotic, completely chaotic around that time?

4 That's right, isn't it?

5 A. Well, I cannot -- I cannot say if they were chaotic. I do not

6 know what normal conditions in a camp are. I do not know what normal

7 conditions are like, and are camps and camp conditions something normal?

8 I wouldn't call it chaotic.

9 Q. In October 1994, when you made your statement to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor, that is precisely how you described the conditions at that

11 time. Do you remember that?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. Duca Knezevic, of whom you are aware, he was not a guard at the

14 camp, was he?

15 A. He was not. At least I do not think so, but he used to come

16 there.

17 Q. And Zoran Zigic also, although he may have been a guard at one

18 time, ceased to be a guard but continued to come after that; is that

19 correct?

20 A. It is.

21 Q. The Room 3 killings, according to what you were told by Kajin, was

22 a combination of retaliation for what had happened in World War II and the

23 killing of Serb troops in Hambarine; is that correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Can I just return very briefly to the day after the first incident

Page 1636

1 in Room 3? Do you know somebody called Dule Jankovic?

2 A. No. I think -- no. I don't know. I mean, it vaguely rings a

3 bell. I think the man was with the traffic police, but I'm really not

4 sure.

5 Q. If I can suggest to you that he was with Simo Drljaca on the day

6 that that person was at the camp, can you help us about that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you gave evidence to the Tribunal in 1996, you presumably

9 took an oath, as you did on this occasion, to tell the truth; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you told them on that occasion, the

13 Tribunal on that occasion, that the Keraterm camp was guarded by Serb

14 guards who you thought were from paramilitary units; is that right?

15 A. Possibly.

16 Q. And is it not right that you told the Tribunal on that occasion

17 that those people were all the time under the orders of people who wore

18 military uniforms?

19 A. I wouldn't know that. What I know is only what I could see around

20 me, and I know that men who guarded us determined our life, but who issued

21 orders to whom, I could not know that, being in the camp. Nor did we have

22 any information in that respect.

23 Q. Do you accept that that, what I have just read out to you, is what

24 you told the Trial Chamber on the 8th of August, 1996, Mr. Arifagic? They

25 were all the time under the orders of people who wore military uniform --

Page 1637

1 uniforms? Do you accept that?

2 A. Could be.

3 Q. Just returning briefly to two matters, please. It's right, isn't

4 it, that the most dangerous period of time for prisoners in the camp was

5 at night-time?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. And the people who were most feared were Duca Knezevic, Zoran

8 Zigic, and Cupo Banovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The book from which you garnered names of members of your family,

11 that's a book that you brought and gave to Mr. Ryneveld?

12 A. No. I bought that book because that book can be bought in Bosnia

13 in almost every bookshop.

14 Q. And it was you who gave it to the Prosecution rather than the

15 Prosecution seeking it from you; is that right?

16 A. I showed it to them, but he had a book, and I suppose he came by

17 it himself.

18 Q. Does it relate only to people in the Prijedor area or is it a book

19 which deals with all of Bosnia?

20 A. No. It's a book which I believe was published by the association

21 of wives and mothers who lost their men, and I think it is a book of

22 people who were identified, people who are reported as missing, and it

23 covers by and large the area of the municipality of Prijedor.

24 Q. And is it in fact drawn from a register of people who are

25 missing?

Page 1638

1 A. I cannot say yes or no because I did not publish it, so I do not

2 know what the sources were.

3 Q. In relation to the names that you've picked out in highlighter in

4 the lists that we have got, ten of them have no date of disappearance.

5 Would you accept that? Disappearance or death?

6 A. I suppose so. I mean, they are registered as missing but there is

7 no date.

8 Q. And of the names again that you highlighted, none of those people

9 was in Keraterm, were they?

10 A. Yes. I believe you're right.

11 Q. Finally, were you aware in Keraterm of an individual called

12 Bajazit Jakupovic, who was a pilot?

13 A. Yes, I remember him. He was in my dormitory.

14 Q. And was he subsequently transferred to Omarska?

15 A. I think he was taken to Omarska.

16 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment?

17 Q. As far as Bajazit Jakupovic was concerned, did you hear from

18 anybody what had happened to him at Omarska?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And finally, your stay in Trnopolje, did you ever see Dusko

21 Sikirica there?

22 A. I don't think I remember seeing him. I didn't. I don't

23 remember.

24 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Mr. Petrovic?

Page 1639

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Sir, you said that you returned to Kozarac in December, 1991. Why

4 did you come back home at that time?

5 A. That was normal to come back in this period. I was involved in

6 building my family home and I had spent a number of -- a period of time in

7 our -- the construction projects abroad, in Africa. I came back to finish

8 the house.

9 Q. And before that you worked in Croatia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you finish the job in Croatia and this is why you came back,

12 or was it for family reasons?

13 A. It was for family reasons. I took a leave of absence because I

14 used to work six months at a time without a break and so I took time off

15 to finish the family house.

16 Q. Yesterday you mentioned on several occasions an oath of loyalty to

17 the new authorities?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This oath of loyalty, was this something that was asked

20 individually of people of Muslim ethnic background or was it for the whole

21 area?

22 A. It was for the -- all of -- the whole of Kozarac. I think that

23 people who were in leading positions in police and civilian authorities,

24 that they -- they were asked to say that they were loyal to the Serb

25 authorities in Prijedor.

Page 1640












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Page 1641

1 Q. Was it perhaps what was asked of the political leaders in Prijedor

2 also to surrender weapons which they had?

3 A. I think that that was a condition.

4 Q. So we can agree that what was really implied by loyalty, the

5 surrender of weapons that people had with them?

6 A. I don't know what loyalty comprised of, but one of the conditions

7 was that when these people -- when people who were -- who had been wounded

8 were supposed to be taken to the Prijedor hospital, to be treated, that

9 was one of the conditions made to Becir Medunjanin.

10 Q. In your statement to the Tribunal in 1994, you said that seven

11 days before the attack on Kozarac, a barricade had been erected at

12 Kozarusa; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. That was the last checkpoint.

14 Q. This checkpoint was set up by the inhabitants of Kozarusa?

15 A. Yes. I believe that they did. Before that, a control checkpoint

16 had been erected at Orlovci so our access to Piro had been cut off.

17 Q. Was there -- I need to go a little bit slower because of the

18 interpreters. Was there a checkpoint at the entrance of Kozarac, that is

19 coming from the main road?

20 A. I do not believe so. I think that this was at Jakupovic and at

21 Kozarusa.

22 Q. The checkpoint at Kozarusa was manned by locals from Kozarusa who

23 were of Muslim ethnic background and they were organised in Territorial

24 Defence or something like that?

25 A. I was not at that checkpoint, but I assumed that these were people

Page 1642

1 who lived in Kozarusa.

2 Q. These were people of Muslim ethnic background?

3 A. For the most part.

4 Q. Could we agree that the main highway between Prijedor and Banja

5 Luka passes through Kozarusa?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can we agree that in fact the Prijedor -- the area of Prijedor, by

8 setting up of this checkpoint, had been cut off from Banja Luka?

9 A. Yes, because the checkpoint at Orlovci had been set up even

10 earlier.

11 Q. In your statement you also said that after the change of power in

12 Prijedor, the police in Kozarac, that is before the takeover, the police

13 was composed of both Muslims and Croats?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And then you said that after the takeover of power, the Serb

16 members of the police left their duties in Kozarac. Why did this happen?

17 A. After the takeover of power, because Kozarac at that time did not

18 declare loyalty, from what I know they simply did not show up at work.

19 Q. Do you know why? Do you have any idea about why they did not --

20 stopped coming to work?

21 A. From what I know, the commander of police in Kozarac was a Serb.

22 Why they stopped coming to work, why only Muslims remained in the police

23 force, and some Croats, that ...

24 Q. You served in a special unit in Paunci during your national

25 service, so I assume that you know something about the military structure

Page 1643

1 and the organisation of units starting with the squad, platoon, company,

2 and so on. Can you tell us, how was the defence of Kozarac organised in

3 that respect? Were you divided into squads, platoons, companies?

4 A. There was no such organisation. The organisation consisted simply

5 of the locals from certain village forming guards and checkpoints. In

6 other words, the outside perimeter of Kozarac was protected so that there

7 would be no incursions or no attempts made on it.

8 Q. In your statement from 1994, you said that as a response to the

9 takeover of power in Prijedor, guards were set up facing the villages, the

10 Serb villages.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In these first days after the takeover of power in Prijedor, as

13 far as I understand, there were no conflicts in that area?

14 A. No, there were none.

15 Q. Yesterday, during your examination-in-chief, you said that six men

16 were killed by a shell which -- who were killed.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The six men -- were these six men involved in the defence of

19 Kozarac?

20 A. At that point, they were in this village. In other words, there

21 was a large group of locals there, and at that point when they were

22 killed, that was the very beginning of the attack. They were at their

23 guard posts.

24 Q. You mentioned Senad Cirkin. Later on during your stay -- during

25 your imprisonment in Keraterm did you see him there?

Page 1644

1 A. Only once. I think he was brought in at nightfall and the next

2 day he was led away.

3 Q. How was he treated at Keraterm?

4 A. He was brought in. I cannot recall exactly where he was put, in

5 which room. I think that one of the guards came and called the captain,

6 asking him to come out and eat, and he refused.

7 Q. He was not mistreated or beaten from what you know?

8 A. From what I know. He was not in my room, so I cannot say.

9 Q. Was Medunjanin also brought in to Keraterm?

10 A. No, he was not.

11 Q. Yesterday, you provided us with a sketch which you had drawn, and

12 were -- was it possible to enter Keraterm on the back side of Keraterm

13 where --

14 A. No. I'm not aware that there was any gate and entrance there.

15 Q. You also mentioned that at one point, bars were placed on the

16 doors of the room where you were.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Why were they put there, in your opinion?

19 A. My opinion was - and I think that I share that opinion with other

20 men from Room 2 - it happened often that Zigic would come in at night. He

21 would drive in with Mercedes, and he would drive in this car in the room

22 itself. So people would jump up and try to go to the back of the room.

23 And because of these frequent visits, I explained that this door, and this

24 was a metal door -- these bars were placed also, they said, so that we

25 would have more air during the night.

Page 1645

1 Q. So would I be wrong in saying that these bars were placed in order

2 to protect you from the night visitors and, on the other hand, to allow

3 you to have more air?

4 A. That was the explanation. Probably what we all agreed on was that

5 we had more air.

6 Q. Did you ever see Kajin getting into a conflict with Zigic who was

7 coming and mistreating people?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You shook your head, but I need a verbal answer from you.

10 A. The answer was, "No."

11 Q. The bars were placed there after your arrival at Keraterm?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Until then there was a full metal door there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you could not see outside through that door?

16 A. No, not when they were closed.

17 Q. Yesterday, you said that the majority of the guards, during the

18 day, stood around the weigh hut. Did that mean that they did not have

19 specific sentry posts, guard posts, but that they, rather, grouped or

20 walked about without any particular order?

21 A. In -- apart from those guards who were at machine-gun nests, most

22 of the guards spent their time around and inside that hut, from what we

23 could see.

24 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned the height of the room where you were,

25 and you said that it was about two, two and a half metres high.

Page 1646

1 A. Two and a half, three.

2 Q. But then you said it could be higher because a trailer truck could

3 come in.

4 A. I think that it was about three metres high, and from what I know,

5 these trucks were two metres twenty high, so I think that this kind of

6 truck could have entered this room.

7 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to please

8 show the witness Prosecution Exhibit number 21, which is the sketch

9 provided by the witness.

10 Can the exhibit please be placed on the ELMO so that everybody

11 would be able to follow my questions to the witness as I ask him to

12 explain certain details.

13 Q. In this sketch, you marked the rooms. You placed them in order

14 and used -- in your sketch, we see that the toilet is between Rooms 3 and

15 4.

16 A. This is how I drew it.

17 Q. Could -- would you accept that the arrangement of rooms was a bit

18 different?

19 A. Yes, I do. This was done four years after my stay in Keraterm, so

20 I did it to the best of my recollection. I drew what I remembered.

21 Q. Do you remember - and it is not represented in the sketch - that

22 in front of Room 1 there was a kiosk where the guards were staying?

23 A. I believe that it did exist.

24 Q. How did that kiosk look, if you can remember?

25 A. I don't know. It may have been like a newspaper,like a news stand

Page 1647

1 type of kiosk.

2 Q. Was such a kiosk also near the gate where you said that it was a

3 gate for pedestrians and vehicles?

4 A. I don't recall.

5 Q. In the grassy area in front of Rooms 3 and 4, were there poles on

6 which the floodlights were mounted?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can we agree that these lights virtually did not work?

9 A. I think that in -- for the most part they did not, but there were

10 nights when it did work.

11 Q. When lights were not on, you could not see clearly from the room

12 where you were what was going on in the other parts -- in the areas

13 around?

14 A. I don't think you could.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't need the

16 sketch any more.

17 Q. Yesterday, when you mentioned men who were in Room 2 where you had

18 spent your detention, you said that there were men from Puharska, then

19 later on from Ljubija, also from Kozarac. Can we conclude that, in fact,

20 there were men from all different areas of Prijedor? Were there also

21 people from Brdo?

22 A. Very few, but probably there were some.

23 Q. Does that mean, in fact, that men were not grouped by room, at the

24 time when you had come, based on what area of the municipality they were

25 coming from but on some other principle?

Page 1648












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Page 1649

1 A. I don't think at that time. I don't know what the organisation

2 was, but not at that time.

3 Q. Do you perhaps remember that shortly after -- that when you

4 arrived, at first there were two shifts and then the organisation, as you

5 knew it, was established?

6 A. At that time, I don't know how many shifts there were and what the

7 organisation was.

8 Q. How many hours was one shift?

9 A. I think that these guard shifts changed at 7.00 in the morning and

10 7.00 in the evening and then it rotated.

11 Q. That would mean that it lasted for about 12 hours each?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned a person who beat you. You said that his

14 name was Milan and that he was working at the Oslobodenje newsstand.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that you had noticed as much as you could, given that you

17 were badly beaten, that he was wearing white belt, such as the military

18 police members were wearing?

19 A. Yes, he had them.

20 Q. Could we conclude, then, that since he had such a uniform, that he

21 was a member of the military police?

22 A. I cannot say to which units he belonged. He just had them.

23 Q. Did you see him later at Keraterm, this guard, Milan?

24 A. I don't believe I did.

25 Q. This happened at the very beginning?

Page 1650

1 A. Yes. This happened the very night I was brought to the camp.

2 Q. Can we conclude that, then, he was not a guard at Keraterm?

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. But in any event, did you not see him after that incident?

5 A. I did not.

6 Q. When asked by my learned friend, Mr. Greaves, you confirmed that

7 the conditions in the camp were chaotic and there was lack of

8 organisation. Is this very different from the order and organisation,

9 let's say, in the unit in the army when you served?

10 A. Yes. It differed very much from the regular organisation of the

11 JNA, and it was normal, but because this was a camp.

12 Q. You said that after your first beating, Kajin's shift came on duty

13 that next morning?

14 A. Yes. During the night, that is before the morning, I was bleeding

15 all night. I was informed, I think, that it was the men from Puharska who

16 told me that Kajin and his shift would come on duty and that he was a good

17 guy and that I should try to talk to him, that he may be able to help.

18 Q. You also said yesterday that you were bleeding profusely and that

19 your life was in danger?

20 A. I was bleeding a lot. I had been beaten severely.

21 Q. The assistance you were given was not adequate but the bleeding

22 which you were suffering was stopped?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At one point in your statement, and I'm referring to the statement

25 you gave in 1994, you said that Kajin was considered the best commander in

Page 1651

1 Keraterm. Why? What -- why did people think so?

2 A. I can give you perhaps my own opinion.

3 Q. That is exactly what I'm asking you, your own opinion.

4 A. My personal opinion was because personally he never mistreated me,

5 he never beat me. And now, whether he could prevent others from

6 mistreating me and beating me, that is another issue, but he personally

7 never beat me, never mistreated me, and he was the only man with whom I

8 established contact in the camp and whom I -- with whom -- whom I had a

9 human contact. He allowed me to go to the hospital. And also I want to

10 explain that the night that he was in front of the room, the words that he

11 said perhaps agreed with me.

12 Q. We'll come to that. But we were talking about the chaos reigning

13 in the camp, with this chaos and -- could it be that due to this chaos and

14 lack of order, you did not tell Kajin who it was that beat you?

15 A. Yes. Maybe specifically, I perhaps could not tell him I was

16 beaten by such and such a person and then expect him to help me. That was

17 the golden rule.

18 Q. Was it the rule of the strongest and the most bestial that

19 reigned, the person who wanted to do something would be able to do it and

20 he would not have been able to prevent them and do anything about it?

21 A. I don't know his position and the amount of power he had, but I

22 know that those who carried weapons and those who were guarding us could

23 do whatever they want with us, if we were not protected, if there was

24 nobody around to protect us, nobody could do anything.

25 Q. Would it be correct to say that if Kajin were present, that he

Page 1652

1 would always try to prevent such occurrences?

2 A. I agree with that.

3 Q. How well did you know Kajin before the war? You said that you

4 knew him in passing?

5 A. Yes, we knew each other from passing. I knew his brother. I knew

6 him better, because we both went to the same technical secondary school.

7 But these were meetings in town. I went to this town for four years to go

8 to school, so I knew a number of people there.

9 Q. From what I understand, you never socialised with Kajin before the

10 war because you were not the same age group, you were not peers, so your

11 acquaintance with him was superficial?

12 A. Yes, it was just meeting.

13 Q. My correction. My colleague has just pointed something out to

14 me. Am I wrong in saying that I am -- you are agreeing with me that Kajin

15 tried to prevent things?

16 A. You --

17 Q. I think my question to you was wrong. What you're trying to tell

18 us was that Kajin did try to prevent these incidents?

19 A. I was -- what I'm trying to say is when Kajin was in the camp, and

20 I'm only talking in my own name, at that time when he was there, there was

21 no mistreatment of people, if he was at his post, if he was with his

22 guards.

23 Q. Did you perhaps see anyone -- at any time that he ordered anyone

24 to mistreat someone?

25 A. No.

Page 1653

1 Q. You were talking about visitors to the camp, like Zigic and Duca.

2 Were these people who were bullies and who were even prepared to shoot at

3 Serbs in order to gain access to people whom they want to mistreat? Was

4 that the impression you gained from --

5 A. I don't know whether they were prepared to shoot at Serbs, but

6 Zigic was also bully before the war.

7 Q. You know that before the war, he had been convicted of murder?

8 A. Yes, but he had a powerful family that protected him.

9 Q. In a van that was taking you to the hospital, the driver was

10 trying to prevent Zigic were taking out aggression on you?

11 A. Yes. Had it not been for him, I think that we would not have

12 fared well.

13 Q. That day, that was the 15th of June, when you were taken to the

14 hospital?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does that mean that in fact that morning, Kajin sent those men to

17 the hospital, including you, and that Zigic was so powerful that he was

18 able to have the men brought back without them having been treated?

19 A. In the hospital, what happened was what he demanded.

20 Q. So the doctors in the hospital were obeying Zigic?

21 A. Yes. Emsud was brought back without actually getting any help

22 because Zigic told the doctor to do so.

23 Q. Yesterday, in your examination-in-chief, you said that two

24 policemen, Fikret and Drago, were brought to Room 2?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1654

1 Q. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know who had called -- who called them out to -- from Room

4 2 when they were beaten?

5 A. I don't know who it was, but Fikret later told us that the Banovic

6 brothers were there in the group of men who beat them when they were

7 brought out.

8 Q. How did Fikret come back to the room?

9 A. I think that somebody had come to the gate, one of the guard --

10 commanders of the guard, and this is how he was able to go back to the

11 room. And I think that the next day he was taken to the hospital or

12 something like that.

13 Q. Was he carried into the room or did he go in on his own power?

14 A. That I do not remember.

15 Q. Did you hear any argument and quarrel between the ones that you

16 assumed were beating him and the person who you -- who arrived in the

17 compound?

18 A. We could hear screams from outside.

19 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that probably one of the commanders

20 came to Keraterm. Did you hear any kind of conversation, any kind of

21 argument?

22 A. No, I don't recall. I did not hear it, but I believe that that

23 was the reason -- actually, I think that Fikret actually pointed out that

24 somebody had come in, and this is the reason why he was still alive and

25 why he had been brought back to the room.

Page 1655

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, we are at the time for the break.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was exactly what

3 I was about to suggest.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Arifagic, we take a break for half an hour.

5 We return at 11.30. During the break, you're not to discuss your evidence

6 with anyone, including members of the Prosecution team.

7 A. Very well.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, you're continuing with your

11 cross-examination.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. I should like to go back briefly to the conditions in the room

14 that you were in. You mentioned in your statement that there was a barrel

15 which was brought in after your arrival and which you used to relieve

16 yourselves overnight.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Why was that barrel brought in?

19 A. That barrel was brought in so that overnight people could relieve

20 themselves so as not to have to go out to the lavatory.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to

22 help me show a document that I have here, to show it to the witness. It

23 is the protocol of the hospital in Prijedor.

24 [In English] I have a copy for Their Honours, and I've already

25 gave that to the -- already gave to the Prosecution. Just for Their

Page 1656












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Page 1657

1 Honours.

2 [Interpretation] I apologise to the Court for having only the

3 English translation. We are really doing our best to have it also

4 translated into the other working language of the Tribunal. As soon as

5 this is done, we shall submit that.

6 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I should like to ask you -- I believe it is on page

7 2 of this protocol, under 3294, where your name figures and the date 15th

8 of June. Do you see that?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. I apologise. Will you look at the document that is in Bosnian,

11 the document that you have in front of you. Do you see there on the

12 second page, fourth column from above, do you see your name?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. And the date 15th of June at the top of the column next to the

15 first name. Next to the first name is the date 15th June and in the

16 fourth column your name.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that your name, your date of birth, and your place of

19 residence?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we should like to

22 tender this into evidence as this is the excerpt from the protocol of the

23 Prijedor hospital for 15th of June, that is, the day when the witness was

24 taken to the hospital and when some medical assistance was extended to

25 him.

Page 1658

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Number, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D2/2.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I should now like to ask you to look at those other

5 names from the top of this page and the previous page. Do you know those

6 people?

7 A. Yes, Zijad Krivdic, Abaz Kulasic. I know those names. Emsud

8 Bahonjic. These are more or less names that I know.

9 Q. Are these persons who were brought to the hospital at the same

10 time with you?

11 A. I think so. Some of those people were with me.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Usher. We shall not

14 need this document any more.

15 Q. I should like now to go back to the incident which you told us

16 happened around the 1st of July, 1992, when you were beaten up, and you

17 told us that it was a day when the food that you got was slightly better?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In your statement to the Tribunal, you said it was on or about the

20 1st of July; you were not sure?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. In your statement you say, "The next morning, a doctor without an

23 arm came and requested to examine wounded prisoners, if there were any,

24 and Kajin told prisoners who had some injuries to go and see the doctor.

25 I then heard that 28 prisoners were taken to the hospital because they had

Page 1659

1 been beaten badly the night before. Some returned, some stayed in the

2 hospital." Is that -- can you -- do you remember that event better, the

3 event that you mentioned in your statement of 1994 now that I've reminded

4 you of the statement? Do you have a better recollection of the event

5 then?

6 A. I believe that is correct.

7 Q. So I can infer, then, that that morning, after that beating,

8 Kajin's shift took over the duty?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know what Kajin's brother was called?

11 A. No. We called him Kajin Jr.

12 Q. In your statement, you said that you had talked with him when you

13 came back from the interrogation and that he reminded you that you knew

14 one another from the school days; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'd now like to go back briefly to the interrogation on the first

17 floor of the administration building. In your statement you said that the

18 interrogator told you, and I'm quoting you now your statement of 1994,

19 "not to go out from Room 2 too often because I might be beaten."

20 A. Well, he told me not to come out of the room, but if I do go out,

21 not to move forward too much because I had bandages on my head, and I had

22 this white net there, so that I was really very conspicuous, and because

23 of these head injuries, I kept this dressing on my head all the time, and

24 he told me, "This is just too conspicuous so it's better for you to keep

25 in the rear."

Page 1660

1 Q. Then does that mean that people who interrogated you were

2 perfectly aware of horrible things happening in the dormitories and in

3 front of them?

4 A. I know what he told me. What he was aware of, I wouldn't know.

5 Q. Do you have any idea as to what was the relationship between

6 interrogators and guards, who was superior to whom?

7 A. No, we could not know that.

8 Q. I would now like to ask you about some individuals, some of whom

9 come from your place, whether you know them and whether you saw them in

10 Keraterm. Redzo Grabic?

11 A. I know him.

12 Q. Did you see him in Keraterm?

13 A. I think he was there but I don't really ...

14 Q. Was he in your room together with you?

15 A. I think he was in Room 2 but ...

16 Q. [redacted]?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Ahmed Malkic?

19 A. He was there.

20 Q. Which room?

21 A. I believe that it was Room 1.

22 Q. Mustafa Kapetanovic, called Muta?

23 A. I do not remember.

24 Q. Fahrudin Mujkanovic?

25 A. No.

Page 1661

1 Q. Ismail Besic?

2 A. No, no, I don't remember him.

3 Q. Sajdo Besic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Mujra Mahmuljin?

6 A. Yes, I remember him. He was in the same room as I, Room 2.

7 Q. Nedzad Mujkanovic?

8 A. I remember him too. He was in Room 2 where I was.

9 Q. These few people that you say you know that were with you in the

10 room, do you remember if they were at some point taken out together from

11 that room that you were together in?

12 A. I remember that Murat was taken out quite frequently and beaten

13 but whether they were all taken out altogether, I don't really remember.

14 Q. I will now ask you about a few incidents. Perhaps you will

15 remember some of them, perhaps you will not, but if you do, then you will

16 be able to help us, I hope. Are you aware that once, one of those

17 visitors to the camp mounted the Zolja and wanted to fire at the room that

18 you were in?

19 A. Possibly, but I don't remember that.

20 Q. And did the van that you were transported to the hospital on that

21 15th of June, was it a blue and white van belonging to Kozara

22 Putevi [phoen] which was always parked at Keraterm?

23 A. I think so.

24 Q. Was it driven by one of the guards who regularly turned up in the

25 Keraterm compound?

Page 1662

1 A. I don't know who drove it, but the man who drove us there, I know

2 him as a conductor who worked for Auto-transport, and I remember him from

3 my secondary school days.

4 Q. But did you used to see that man as a guard around there?

5 A. I am not sure.

6 Q. Now I should like to briefly touch upon the incident when Simo

7 Drljaca and others came to Keraterm. Simo Drljaca promised you, if I

8 understood you well, that the -- you would be better treated from then

9 onward.

10 A. I think so.

11 Q. And did you understand him to mean that Drljaca, who promised

12 that, also had the power and authority to see that that promise was kept

13 and that he had some say in that place where you were?

14 A. Well, we thought so since he was the man who was the chief of

15 police at that time. But those were promises, and we had heard many

16 promises before that and, nevertheless, things kept happening.

17 Q. But did he look like a man of authority?

18 A. I think so. I think that at that moment, he was a man who enjoys

19 certain authority or who wielded certain authority.

20 Q. At that point in time, he looked there as somebody who was number

21 one?

22 A. Well, when he visited us and as he was speaking, as he was

23 explaining something, I suppose he was the man who we listened to.

24 Q. I should now like to briefly remind you of the incident when Kajin

25 came to your room. In your statement, you said that it happened two

Page 1663

1 nights after the second rounds of fire; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, I believe so.

3 Q. And you also said that on that occasion, Kajin said that he

4 disagreed with the Chetnik policy.

5 A. Yes, that he disagreed with the Chetnik policy, with the SDS

6 policy, that he really did not want to see people tortured and

7 mistreated. If somebody was guilty, then he should be brought to justice

8 but -- rather than put people in front of a wall and have them shot. That

9 is what he said.

10 Q. You also said that he discarded the pistol that he had.

11 A. Yes. He was hitting against the bars and did something with it.

12 We could hear those sounds, but that was that.

13 Q. But when that pistol was -- when he threw away that pistol, did he

14 say then, "Kill me if you think that I'm responsible for anything"?

15 A. Perhaps. I don't remember that.

16 Q. Did he weep as he said that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said yesterday that you spoke with your fellow sufferers about

19 what Kajin had said. What was their reaction to what they heard from

20 him?

21 A. Well, I think it was a natural reaction of people. We were

22 simply -- people heard that, and in the camp it was commented that,

23 well ...

24 Q. Did you think that he was sincere when he said that?

25 A. Well, I don't know, but I think considering the state he was in, I

Page 1664












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1665

1 believe, yes, he meant what he said, but what was the background of it

2 all, I don't know.

3 Q. I should also ask you a question or two to briefly go back to

4 Room 2. Do you remember the man, the man who we saw on that photograph of

5 Trnopolje who was shown here, that next to the door on a pallet there was

6 sitting a young man who did not walk, who did not eat, and that Kajin then

7 suggested that the man come out and walk around a little and eat

8 something? Do you remember that?

9 A. I don't remember exactly, but I do remember that there was some

10 instruction to take him out and help him walk around, to help him get some

11 air. I remember, yes, that. Whether we were to take him out -- but, yes,

12 I know there was this man, and we were told that we should take him out

13 and help him walk around so that he could breathe some fresh air.

14 Q. Did Kajin used to come to your room and talk with people who were

15 detained there?

16 A. I think he would come to the door of the room, that is, at those

17 times when we could be outside so that he would come there and communicate

18 and talk with people.

19 Q. And those were normal conversations between people from what you

20 could see?

21 A. Yes, from what I could see, did he not beat anyone. Those were

22 just normal conversations, people who knew him mostly.

23 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

25 questions of this witness.

Page 1666

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

2 Mr. Vucicevic.

3 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

5 Q. Mr. Arifagic, my name is Dusan Vucicevic. I'm an attorney from

6 Chicago, and I represent Dragan Kolundzija.

7 You have testified in direct and also when one of my learned

8 friends at the Defence counsel table has asked you, you testified about

9 your military experience while you served as a conscript in JNA, and you

10 said that you were in the scout sabotage unit; isn't that correct?

11 A. That unit was the sabotage unit of the Chief of Staff.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... had an additional training

13 besides what was the basic infantry training?

14 A. Yes, that is true. We did undergo some additional training.

15 Q. What was the length of that additional training and what did it

16 consist of?

17 A. That training went on for about six months.

18 Q. And what was the length of your total service in JNA at that

19 time?

20 A. A year.

21 Q. So the total training was two months of infantry, basic infantry,

22 plus six months of the special training; isn't that correct? I might be

23 mistaken, but if you can help me on this.

24 A. I think that the basic infantry was 2 months and 20 days, and

25 after that we had some training which was also basically infantry

Page 1667

1 training, and it was after that that we underwent supplementary training

2 for sabotage units.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 A. Well, it consisted of -- I don't know why is it important, but

5 those sabotage units were mostly formed for the combat or for the -- to

6 fight possible subversion units which came to Yugoslavia, and they were

7 there to protect the general staff, and their main purpose was to defend

8 and fight terrorist units and subversive units which made incursions into

9 the then Yugoslavia.

10 Q. To the checkpoint facing Serbian military units at Balte, were you

11 in charge of that checkpoint?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You have testified that you had a Motorola, a radio communication

14 that usually police used, and you have talked to Captain Cirkin and

15 Mr. Medunjanin. So is that -- that was in your possession, that you were

16 responsible for it?

17 A. I was given that Motorola, and I could communicate with Becir

18 Medunjanin and others. However, it wasn't a proper army or police

19 Motorola. It was a contraption rather than a proper radio.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel be advised to mind breaks

21 between questions and answers, please.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, the interpreters are asking you to

23 observe the pause between question and answer. If you look on the

24 transcript, you can see "[Previous translation continues] ..." at least

25 twice, which means that there is an overlap.

Page 1668

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

2 Q. So you were the one who communicated with the superiors from that

3 checkpoint; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Even though you didn't have a formal appointment or a rank but it

6 was your responsibility to coordinate that point of the defence of Kozarac

7 area; isn't that correct?

8 A. No. It was not my duty. I was there like all the others. I was

9 there standing guard, and it just so happened that I was the one who was

10 given this Motorola in case we needed to communicate with someone.

11 Q. So you were basically one of the equals with the some special

12 responsibilities just to communicate to superiors; isn't that correct?

13 A. No. I wasn't their equal. Simply I had the possibility to

14 communicate with them.

15 Q. Okay. You were testifying about two checkpoints, major

16 checkpoints, one in village of Jakupovici, and another is between Kozarusa

17 and Orlovci; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I'm showing you a map that was -- that has already

20 been admitted in evidence, and I would like you to mark - the pen is

21 provided for you - to mark on that map exactly on that road where those

22 checkpoints were. What I meant exactly, I mean what you can discern on

23 that map where they were.

24 A. The names of the villages are not here, but I shall try to put it

25 tentatively somewhere along the road. [Witness marks].

Page 1669

1 Q. And isn't it true that those two checkpoints that you just marked

2 were located on and controlled traffic on the main road, the main

3 thoroughfare between Prijedor and Banja Luka?

4 A. Well, they were there but they could not control any traffic at

5 all because, before that, checkpoints had been set up at Orlovci and in

6 the direction of Omarska so that ...

7 Q. Let's say if Serbian military wanted to pass from Banja Luka to

8 Prijedor, they could pass through the Serbian checkpoint but they would be

9 stopped by checkpoint that the Muslims of Kozarac have put right where you

10 marked; isn't that correct?

11 A. Yes, but one -- I have to point out that those checkpoints were

12 put up on the eve of the attack on Kozarac.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... is not important at this

14 moment. Just it's important that they were there. And also the one, the

15 marking that you put closer to Prijedor, right on the point between

16 Orlovci and Kozarusa, that was also a checkpoint on a major road, the same

17 road?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it reasonable to conclude that Yugoslav army, JNA, that was in

20 Prijedor at that time, from the time when those checkpoints were put, was

21 cut off from their headquarters in Banja Luka; that is correct?

22 A. That is what you think. I think that at that moment

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was an independent state, and I don't know what the

24 Yugoslav People's Army was doing in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Okay. Perhaps I will rephrase the question. Isn't it correct

Page 1670

1 that military garrison in Prijedor was cut off and could not have any

2 supplies and traffic with its headquarters in Banja Luka, whichever

3 military label we want to put it on, let's say garrison and soldiers in

4 Banja Luka were cut -- in Prijedor were cut off from Banja Luka by those

5 checkpoints, even if it was one day before the military activities at

6 Kozarac, but that was at least seven days prior?

7 A. Yes, on that road, they were.

8 Q. Let me move in another area, and that is the terrible thing that

9 occurred to you, the beating that you received. You have testified

10 yesterday about the nature of the injuries that you have received and you

11 have said that you were attacked with a knife. Could you try to describe

12 or point out the part of the body where you -- that you were stabbed with

13 that knife?

14 A. I can show it to a doctor without any problems.

15 Q. I really didn't mean to be disrespectful. I was just going to try

16 to connect some of the consequences that you have perhaps with the

17 injuries that you received. That could be helpful to you. And it would

18 be helpful to the court, because you said that you were attacked with a

19 knife, and I believe those were the stab injuries, and if you can just

20 say, point with your finger, "I was stabbed here in the chest, I was

21 stabbed here in the back, I was stabbed in the thigh," whatever part of

22 your body, just use the finger and show exactly where were you stabbed?

23 A. The knife stabs were on my knee, and the injuries on my head were

24 sustained by blows with a pistol butt. If you were to read my statement

25 closely, you would see what it says.

Page 1671

1 Q. Could you tell us what part of the arms were injured, and with

2 what weapon?

3 A. The left side of the hand, and these three fingers, I think it was

4 -- it came from either rifle butt or a pistol butt. I had protected

5 myself by putting my hand to protect the head and it was broken. I

6 couldn't move these fingers for a month, and I -- I was trying to keep it

7 cool by putting under running water, and I received the first medical

8 assistance when I was in the transit centre in Karlovac.

9 Q. You said that you have felt the numbness for long period of time

10 in your hand. Could you just tell us what part of the hand you have felt

11 the numbness in?

12 A. For the most part, in the fingers. It continues to date. I don't

13 know why I should describe it but, for instance, if I'm trying to turn a

14 screw, I lose strength very quickly, or if I try to use a screwdriver to

15 screw something on, after four or five minutes, I am unable to continue

16 with that, so it -- my hand loses its function.

17 Q. Have you had any surgeries for the injuries that you received on

18 your left hand?

19 Mr. Ryneveld, just the last question and I will connect.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, let me hear --

21 MR. RYNEVELD: I was just going to ask whether the injuries to

22 this witness are truly in dispute, and if so, why are we dwelling on the

23 consequences to the witness?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's a very pertinent question, Mr. Vucicevic,

25 which I have delayed asking you, in order to see --

Page 1672

1 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, what I was going to ask, the witness

2 has testified that he had numbness, and there was no testimony whether the

3 numbness was immediate, that was permanent, the length of it. And if the

4 stab wound resulted in an injury to the nerve in the arm or that was an

5 injury with a blunt object to an area of the middle, upper arm, or the

6 elbow, either the radial nerve or the ulnar nerve would have been severed

7 and his numbness would have been somewhat different.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you seriously disputing the injuries that the

9 witness --

10 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm just testing witness' recollection, that's

11 all, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Go ahead. But let us move quickly.


14 Q. You testified earlier that Crdo [phoen] Cirkin, Captain Cirkin,

15 was brought in while you were at Keraterm; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many days after you came in he was brought in?

18 A. I wouldn't be able to recall now. Perhaps after ten days or

19 something.

20 Q. How far back were you in Room 2?

21 A. If you go down to the -- on the left-hand side, I was at the

22 bottom left corner, that is the first row of pallets to the left at the

23 bottom of the dormitory, so that the door was directly in front of me, so

24 I could see directly through the door when the door was open and I could

25 see the checkpoint at the entrance of Keraterm and so on.

Page 1673












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1674

1 Q. When did you first meet Captain Cirkin?

2 A. I think that that was on the eve of the hostilities, on the eve of

3 the attack against Kozarac. He had just returned from the JNA, and we

4 were told that this was Captain Cirkin.

5 Q. Isn't it fair to say that you knew him and have seen him more than

6 you have seen Kole before the war, meaning him, Captain Cirkin?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So when Captain Cirkin was brought into Room 2 that night, could

9 you recognise him?

10 A. I think that he was brought in. I saw him at the entrance. I was

11 not sure whether he was in Room number 2, but I could recognise him.

12 Q. Whose shift was on duty when Captain Cirkin was brought in, if you

13 can remember?

14 A. I don't recall.

15 Q. Do you remember if a guard came in the same evening to call

16 Captain Cirkin to come out?

17 A. I think that a guard came and that he called him out. I had

18 already pointed that out on one occasion, that he was invited to have

19 something to eat, but he refused.

20 Q. Do you remember whether or not that guard opened the door to look

21 for Captain Cirkin?

22 A. No, I don't remember.

23 Q. Do you remember who was that guard?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And by that time, you were already ten days in the camp? That's

Page 1675

1 correct?

2 A. I think that it was about ten days into my stay.

3 Q. In the morning, early in the morning, the door was opened up and

4 the guard came again to call Captain Cirkin out; isn't that true?

5 A. Probably.

6 Q. Do you remember who was that guard?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you remember that Captain Cirkin came back sometime in the

9 morning, came back to the room? It was daylight. Perhaps you could see

10 him.

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Have you ever spoken to anybody about such a short stay of

13 Captain Cirkin in Keraterm?

14 A. That was just a regular talk among the inmates, that he had left

15 the camp the very next day.

16 Q. Captain Cirkin is alive and well today, isn't he?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have already testified that he was a commander of defence of

19 Keraterm at that time, wasn't he?

20 A. Not of Keraterm.

21 Q. I'm sorry, Kozarac.

22 A. Yes. He was the one who tried to organise the defence of

23 Kozarac.

24 Q. Isn't it somehow puzzling to you for all the years that have

25 passed, that you, who have only had Motorola and being at the point --

Page 1676

1 checkpoint at Balte, had stayed for the whole length at Keraterm, while

2 the man who had a command responsibility stayed there one night and was

3 sent elsewhere?

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, reserve your comments for the

5 appropriate stage of the proceedings. Next question, please.

6 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.

7 Q. When you testified -- actually, when you have given a statement to

8 the OTP in three days, from 20th to 22nd of October, 1994, have you signed

9 that document indicating that the statement that you have given is true

10 and correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you read the statement that was in Bosnian before you have

13 signed it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... matters, the facts you have

16 stated therein were true and correct based on your recollection that at

17 that time was only two years old? Isn't that true?

18 A. I think that it was.

19 Q. Do you remember if there was a guard whose name was Crni or

20 perhaps a shift commander who was called Crni?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. Have you talked to any of the inmates how many shifts were there

23 just a day or two before you arrived?

24 A. I think that we talked about it, that is, we got information,

25 those of us who were brought, that there were three shifts and that they

Page 1677

1 kept rotating all the time.

2 Q. Have you ever had -- ever heard that at some time Tomo Prodan was

3 a shift leader?

4 A. I did not know that.

5 Q. Are you a member of the association of the former inmates of

6 Keraterm?

7 A. I am not. You can believe it or not, but I'm not.

8 Q. I do believe whatever you say, indeed.

9 Have you had a chance to talk to any inmates, either if you had

10 gone back to Bosnia and Herzegovina or in the country where you're at now,

11 about the shifts of all shift leaders that served there, even after you

12 have given this statement?

13 A. I had occasions even though I think that we tried suppress these

14 stories. We go about our own business. We only recollect on our stay in

15 the camp on occasions, but all of us who live in this country where we

16 live tried to engage in other things, and the camp is something that we --

17 Q. I apologise for having asked -- asking such a question that jogs

18 your memory. I know that I have talked to more than 50 inmates in my

19 work, and I know how difficult it is, and indeed, you know, on my own, I

20 deeply regret for all that you have suffered, but indeed, we have to do

21 this, and you have been here before, so I think you can appreciate that.

22 The only thing what I call your attention to your previous

23 testimony, and at that time, on page 14, and I am going to read, you're

24 talking about Kole: "I would describe him as about 30 years of age, about

25 1 metre 75 tall, black hair, medium build, with slouched shoulders and

Page 1678

1 dark complexion."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How tall are you, sir?

4 A. One eighty-five, 1 metre 85.

5 Q. So Kole is 10 centimetres shorter than you are, isn't he?

6 A. I don't know. We didn't stand one -- next to another. This is

7 how I saw -- this is my assessment of his height. But in the camp, we

8 didn't pay attention to how tall someone was.

9 Q. But perhaps 15 centimetres difference between what you said and

10 what his real height is, it's significant, isn't it?

11 A. That is your conclusion.

12 Q. Especially when there was another shift commander who perfectly

13 fits your description. That's what I'm concerned about.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: I have no more questions, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

16 Before Mr. Ryneveld, Mr. Greaves.

17 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to rise at the moment. There was a matter

18 which I neglected to put to this witness which I should have done, and I

19 apologise for my neglect. I wonder whether Your Honour would mind if I

20 took about two minutes to put the matter to the witness. I've told my

21 learned friend about this and he has no objection.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, you may.

23 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Again I apologise for not having done it before

24 Further cross-examination by Mr. Greaves:

25 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I'll ask you the questions from here. Can you tell

Page 1679

1 me about this: In relation to your departure from Keraterm, when people

2 were selected to go to Omarska, the first time that you have mentioned the

3 name Sikirica in relation to that at all was yesterday? Do you accept

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So to make it absolutely plain, you've never mentioned that

7 before. Indeed, when you made your statement in 1994, you said this:

8 "The next day the guards, I do not know who, informed us that some names

9 would be called and we were to gather our belongings and go to a bus.

10 Between 100 and 130 prisoners were called and went to the two or three

11 buses which were parked in the yard at the front of Rooms 1 or 2. I was

12 not called."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You did not know the names of anybody who was present on that

15 occasion?

16 A. That is your conclusion.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I have no other question to ask arising

18 out of that. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, re-examination?

20 MR. RYNEVELD: One question only.


22 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:


24 Q. Sir, as a result of Mr. Greaves' questions during

25 cross-examination, you indicated to the court that you had just completed

Page 1680

1 building your house 20 days before the aggression started, and then 20

2 days later, it burned down. Can you tell us how it burned down or do you

3 know?

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I might be mistaken on this one but,

5 nevertheless, I would like to learn about this procedure. It's my

6 understanding from jurisdiction I'm coming from that redirect could be

7 only asked within the subject of the cross, and this is not -- this wasn't

8 subject of the cross.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect --


11 MR. RYNEVELD: That's where I heard it for the first time. It was

12 on cross. That's why I'm re-examining on it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Ryneveld.


15 Q. Did you understand my question, sir? Would you answer it,

16 please?

17 A. Yes. My house burned down. That is perhaps one of the proofs

18 that I was not interested in politics and perhaps I was one of the naive

19 people who, on the eve of the war, was still investing the hard-earned

20 money into this family home. It was completely finished and appointed,

21 and with my eight-month-pregnant wife and my daughter, I moved in there.

22 We were putting in new, improved electricity lines, and this happened.

23 Then they ended up in Trnopolje camp together with my father and my

24 mother, and my brother and I ended up in Keraterm. When I first came

25 back, I found only ruins of my house.

Page 1681

1 Q. So it was upon your return from Keraterm that you found your house

2 had burned down; is that correct?

3 A. My first return to Kozarac, the first opportunity that I had to

4 come back to Kozarac, because we had not had opportunity to go there

5 before. I found the ruins and everything had burned down.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, witness.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Arifagic, that concludes your testimony, and

8 you are discharged.

9 A. Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, before the next witness is brought

12 in, there is a matter I wanted to raise. It has to do with the motion

13 filed by the Prosecution on the 13th of March for the admission of

14 documentary evidence. This is the second additional request for

15 additional documentary evidence. There has been no response yet from any

16 of the Defence counsel to this motion. When we looked at the motion,

17 however, we saw some elements that required clarification. In the first

18 place, you have submitted several documents, but in respect of those

19 documents, you have expressly stated you are not seeking their admission.

20 And secondly, there is some overlapping between those same documents and

21 the documents whose admission you are in fact seeking. What the Chamber

22 will do is to require you within a week to provide a clarification of

23 those matters and then the Defence counsel will have one week from that

24 clarification to provide any response, if they so wish, and then the

25 Chamber will deal with the matter.

Page 1682

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. The next witness?

3 MS. BALY: Your Honour, the next witness is a witness who

4 testified in the Omarska trial with the protection of a pseudonym and

5 facial distortion. I would ask, Your Honour, that that protection be

6 extended to his testimony in this trial.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you provide the basis?

8 MS. BALY: Your Honour, can we go into private session briefly?

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 1683












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Page 1684

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness may be seated. Proceed. We deem

24 that to be sufficiently open.

25 Examined by Ms. Baly:

Page 1685

1 Q. Could you have a look, please, at this document that you're about

2 to be shown? Do you see on that document your name written?

3 A. [In English] Yes.

4 Q. And your date of birth?

5 A. [In English] Yes.

6 Q. And witness do you understand in these proceedings you are going

7 to be referred to as witness G?

8 A. [In English] Yes.

9 MS. BALY: I tender that document.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 24.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Ms. Baly.

12 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness G, what is your ethnicity?

14 A. Muslim, Bosnian.

15 Q. As at 1992, did you live in the Kozarac area?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. After you completed your schooling in Kozarac, did you complete

18 your compulsory military service in the engineering corps?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. And specifically did you work with demolitions?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. After you finished your military service, did you return to work

23 in the Prijedor area at a firm, a construction company?

24 A. [In English] Yes.

25 Q. And is it correct that you worked there for 23 years and that you

Page 1686

1 were a crane operator and a mason within the company?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you live in the Kozarusa area?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, may I take you, please, to the 22nd of May, in 1992. Was

6 that, in fact, the last day that you worked at the company?

7 A. [Interpretation] Yes. It was my last day.

8 Q. I think it was a Friday, and you, in fact, did attend work and you

9 travelled to work in your car; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. And to travel to work, you had to pass through a village known as

12 Orlovci; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That village was, at that time, a largely Serb-dominated village;

15 is that correct?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. As you passed through the village, were you stopped at a

18 checkpoint?

19 A. No. That is -- yes, they stopped me. Yes.

20 Q. And was that a checkpoint that the Serbs had, in fact, set up some

21 15 days prior to the 22nd of May, 1992?

22 A. Yes, there was a checkpoint.

23 Q. And was it a checkpoint that to your knowledge had been set up 15

24 days before you passed through it or you arrived at it?

25 A. Yes, there was a checkpoint.

Page 1687

1 Q. Was the checkpoint manned by soldiers?

2 A. It was.

3 Q. And did some of those soldiers -- were some of those soldiers

4 dressed in what you would call regular army uniform?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did they appear to be regular army soldiers with short hair

7 and dressed neatly and wearing clean uniforms?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were there other -- others at the checkpoint who you would

10 describe as being -- looking like Chetniks?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is your understanding, Witness G, of what a Chetnik is?

13 A. Well, they wore black fur caps, clothes which were usually of a

14 dark colour, and on those fur caps they had cockades.

15 Q. At the checkpoint, was your car searched?

16 A. It was.

17 Q. And after the search were you sent back home?

18 A. I was.

19 Q. And did you notice, Witness G, that the Serbs were, in fact,

20 turning back all cars and buses that had Muslim and Croatian occupants in

21 them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you notice that about ten cars and two buses were turned back,

24 and did you also notice that cars with Serbian occupants were allowed to

25 pass through the checkpoint?

Page 1688

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you returned home, that is, on the 22nd of May, 1992; is that

3 correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And on the Sunday following the 22nd, that is, on the 24th of May,

6 1992, was there a report on Radio Prijedor concerning a military convoy?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did the report say that the military convoy would pass through

9 Kozarac on its way from Bihac to Banja Luka?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was it also stated that no one should interfere with the

12 convoy to avoid clashes with the army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At about half past 2.00 that day, did you hear some shooting?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that shooting coming from tanks, anti-aircraft guns, and

17 cannons?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, Witness G, did you in fact see the tanks firing as they were

20 about 300 metres away from your house?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you noticed that the anti-aircraft guns had been placed in

23 position about 15 days prior to the 22nd of May, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did these anti-aircraft guns open fire on hay barns that were in

Page 1689

1 the area?

2 A. Yes, when the war began, yes, that day.

3 Q. And did you notice that the cannons were in orchards between

4 Orlovci and Prijedor at a place called Kafaniste, which was on the -- and

5 also on the Kozara Mountain?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After the shelling -- did the shelling and the firing continue all

8 that day and into the night and through until the following Tuesday at

9 about 11.00 a.m.?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And around that time, did a Serbian neighbour of yours who was

12 dressed in an SMB uniform tell you that there was -- that an order had

13 come that you should all attend a certain place?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he describe this place as being a safe place?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the name of this place?

18 A. Kozarusa, where the neighbourhood community centre is.

19 Q. And from there did he say that buses would, in fact, take you to a

20 safe place?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he also tell you that anyone who did not go would be killed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And is it the case, Witness G, that about 2.000 to 3.000 people

25 attended the place, and upon arrival was it the case that the men were

Page 1690

1 immediately separated from the women?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And also from the children and the elderly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I think there are about 80 to a hundred people there from where

6 you had come from, from the area where you lived; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when you were there, I think you were again told that all

9 civilians would be taken to a safe place and that no one would shoot at

10 them; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did the Serbs there also say that they were going to cleanse the

13 forest of Green Berets?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did you understand that to mean, Witness G?

16 A. Well, I took it to mean that they would shelter us somewhere until

17 the situation -- until the -- until they resolved the situation, but it

18 simply did not happen that way.

19 Q. Witness G, what did you understand by the expression "cleanse the

20 forest of Green Berets"?

21 A. It meant to me that they would look at all our people, Muslims or

22 perhaps other ethnic background, and to cleanse us, that is, put us all

23 into a camp, and that is how we ended up.

24 Q. Witness G, were you and your family then placed on buses or a bus

25 and taken to the Trnopolje camp?

Page 1691

1 A. Yes. That is, my family to one side and me to the other.

2 Q. So that when you arrived at the camp, you were separated from --

3 again, the men were separated from the women and the children and the

4 elderly; is that right?

5 A. Yes. For a while, we were separated.

6 Q. Were you separated for three days, in fact?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you notice, Witness G, that every day approximately a thousand

9 more people would arrive?

10 A. Yes, a huge number of people began to flow in a few days after

11 us.

12 Q. And therefore there was not enough room to have the women,

13 children and elderly separated from the men. Is that what took place?

14 A. That's right, there was no more room.

15 Q. And for that reason, you were all allowed to mingle; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Petrovic?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, if I

21 understand it well, it seems to me that there is no more room for leading

22 questions because we are coming now to specific particulars which are

23 important for our cross-examination, so I think that the witness should

24 not be led from now on.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're right. You will have to -- can't lead any

Page 1692












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1693

1 more, Ms. Baly.

2 MS. BALY: Thank you.

3 Q. Now, for how long did you remain in that -- in the Trnopolje

4 camp?

5 A. I stayed in Trnopolje for about 12 days.

6 Q. Can you describe, please, just very briefly, the conditions in the

7 camp?

8 A. The conditions were non-existent. We had no water. We had no

9 lavatories. We had no food. They were horrible, to put it simply.

10 Q. Witness G, in addition to the conditions that you endured, were

11 the detainees mistreated in any way?

12 A. There were a number of instances. A woman was killed, I think the

13 very second day after our arrival there. She was sitting on the school

14 stairs. They simply opened fire from all sides and a stray bullet hit the

15 woman and killed her on those stairs.

16 Q. Who was it that opened fire?

17 A. Guards opened fire, those who guarded us, those who were around.

18 Q. Did you see any other instances where detainees were injured or

19 killed in Trnopolje?

20 A. Yes. At that point, during those first 12 days of my stay in

21 Trnopolje, people were taken away on a number of occasions, beaten, and

22 then brought back, some bloody and some never came back at all.

23 Q. You indicated to the court that you remained in the camp for 12

24 days. What happened, where were you taken, and where did you go after you

25 left the camp?

Page 1694

1 A. At Trnopolje, some soldiers looked for me, looked for 23 of us.

2 They found three of us, of those men who they were looking for. They put

3 us on a bus and took us to the barracks in Prijedor.

4 Q. Who were the other two men that they took to Prijedor?

5 A. It was Redzo Grabic, and Labud Mujkanovic. Labud is a nickname.

6 Q. What ethnicity is or was Redzo Grabic?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. And what about the other man?

9 A. He was also a Muslim.

10 Q. And where were you taken in Prijedor?

11 A. They took us to the barracks in Prijedor.

12 Q. Do those barracks have a name that you're aware of?

13 A. Yes, it does, but it escapes me right now. Is it Zarko Zgonjanin

14 or something? I don't know.

15 Q. What were the barracks used for?

16 A. Well, beforehand, there were army troops in the barracks and

17 armaments in some of the hangars next to the barracks.

18 Q. For how long did you remain at those barracks?

19 A. Some eight or nine days, I'd say, because in those rooms where we

20 were kept, there were no windows, so you couldn't tell day from night.

21 Q. What happened to you on the first day that you arrived at the

22 barracks?

23 A. The first day when we arrived in the barracks, we were turned over

24 by the group who escorted us to a group of soldiers, and we were received

25 by Tyson, that was his nickname, and he immediately took us to a small WC,

Page 1695

1 to a small lavatory which was opposite the street. That is, on one side

2 there was the prison, and on the other, I think there were guards, the

3 guards who guarded it. And Tyson there beat all three of us in that small

4 room, in that small lavatory, which was about the area which was about one

5 metre. He beat all three of us there until we all fell one over the other

6 and fainted. And then from a wash basin, which had a hose fixed to it, he

7 sprinkled water on us to make us come back to. And it happened three

8 times. That is, he would beat us and then sprinkle us to bring us back to

9 life.

10 Q. Who was this person Tyson?

11 A. That is all I know about him. I know only his nickname, Tyson. I

12 think he was a military policeman. He did have a white belt on his

13 trousers.

14 MS. BALY: Mr. Ryneveld has just reminded me of the time, Your

15 Honour. Would it be convenient at this time to take a break?

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. We will take the break until 2.30.

17 Witness G, during the break, you're not to discuss your evidence with

18 anyone, including the members of the Prosecution team.

19 We are adjourned.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






Page 1696

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours. I'm sorry to interrupt in the

4 middle of a witness, but I'm pleased to advise that we have now been

5 provided with French translations of a diagram that have been entered and

6 perhaps we can have those distributed at your convenience, but I just

7 thought you'd like to know that we have those.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That's very good.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: That's for the last witness, Mr. Arifagic.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you very much. And in that regard,

11 before we commence with the cross-examination, I'd like to explain of

12 presence of Mr. Pierre Rouve, who -- would you stand so they can see you?

13 Mr. Rouve is not an impostor. He has been provided by the Registrar to

14 the Chamber to assist us in the consultations which the Bench needs to

15 have from time to time, and he will assist in matters of translation and

16 interpretation as required. So if you see him stepping up to the Bench,

17 it's not that the Chamber has a fourth member, I have explained his

18 presence.

19 Where were we in the -- it's Ms. Baly to continue. Yes. Thank

20 you.

21 MS. BALY:

22 Q. Witness G, before we took the break, you were telling the Court

23 about this person Tyson, and you said that you thought he was a military

24 policeman. Can you -- I ask you why you thought -- why you thought so?

25 Why did you think he was a military policeman?

Page 1697

1 A. He was wearing a white belt, which was a sign that he was a member

2 of the military police because the military police always wore white

3 belts.

4 Q. During the beating that you received and the spraying down with

5 the hose, were you -- was anything said to you or were you asked any

6 questions?

7 A. Yes. He only asked of us where we had our weapons, and again, the

8 beating continued. And this was repeated three times. Three times he

9 knocked us unconscious and brought us back to. And then another military

10 policeman came, and he told him to get out of there. He took us to one of

11 the dormitories. It was a real prison because there were metal bars on

12 it, but one could see through, but there was no door. So we had an

13 unobstructed view. There were only bars on it.

14 Q. When he asked you about the weapons, did you respond?

15 A. I personally said that I did not have any weapons, that the only

16 thing I had was a registered -- a properly registered pistol with the SUP,

17 and I told him where it was, where I had left it.

18 Q. After you told him that, did he cease beating you?

19 A. He did not stop. He went on, and in the end he told us -- he

20 said, "I'm going to leave for one minute. If you don't say where the

21 weapons were" -- he was going to cut our throats. One minute later, he

22 came back in and then the other military policeman appeared, and he chased

23 him away and put us in this room which was the prison, and he locked us up

24 in there.

25 Q. For how long did you remain in that room?

Page 1698

1 A. I remained there for about eight days. There were no windows on

2 it, so I couldn't say whether it was day or night. I was there for seven

3 or eight days.

4 Q. While you were there, were you being guarded by anyone in

5 particular?

6 A. There was no specific guard that was guarding us, but the door was

7 locked so nobody could get in. They came to the door and they cursed our

8 balija mothers and provoked us, simply.

9 Q. Who were "they"?

10 A. They were soldiers. I think that they were some kind of

11 reservists because they were all a little bit older, 25, 30, 35 years.

12 Q. And what were they wearing?

13 A. Some were wearing olive-drab uniforms, some were wearing

14 camouflage uniforms. And one man stood out. He was always wearing black

15 clothes with a cockade and a long knife he always had on him, 40 to 50

16 centimetres long. I had never seen Yugoslav army members carrying such

17 knives. Perhaps it was an older type of weapon, maybe something from

18 World War I.

19 Q. How many of you were there in that room?

20 A. We were about eight.

21 Q. Can you name the others who were with you?

22 A. There was Redzo Grabic, Labud Mujkanovic, then Mirsad Lovic and

23 his son. Then a man called Sengin. Then a man whom they only referred to

24 by the nickname of "machine-gunner." And the two Jakupovic brothers.

25 Q. And what happened to you while you were in that room?

Page 1699

1 A. They took me to be interrogated. That was across the way in the

2 barracks.

3 Q. What kinds of questions were you asked when you were interrogated?

4 A. First, they asked me to give them my personal data, where I was

5 born, when I was born, when I had done my national service, what branch,

6 whether I was married, how many children I had, where my wife was, where

7 my children were, and they asked me about my brothers, where they were,

8 and other questions -- this is the questions at first. And then they went

9 on to ask me where the weapons were, where the Green Berets were, where do

10 you have lists and who has those lists, and things like that.

11 Q. Now, in relation to those latter questions about the Green Berets

12 and the lists and so forth, were you able to answer those questions?

13 A. I was not able to answer them because I was not a part of the

14 Green Berets, nor was I their member, nor did I know about them. I never

15 saw them.

16 Q. And Witness G, who was it that was asking you these questions?

17 Was it the soldiers who you referred to earlier or was it someone else?

18 A. They were wearing military uniforms, all of them did, but what

19 their duties were, they were probably some officers or members of the

20 Prijedor SUP. They are the ones who were asking questions. I don't know

21 who they were because they only asked questions. All I know is that they

22 were in uniform.

23 Q. And what type of uniform were they wearing?

24 A. From what I remember, the group of those who were asking me

25 questions were -- they were wearing olive-drab uniforms.

Page 1700

1 Q. You referred earlier to Tyson being, you thought, a military --

2 wearing a military police uniform because of the white belt. Were any of

3 these people who were asking you questions wearing that same white belt?

4 A. Those men did not have such a belt. I did not notice them having

5 one.

6 Q. After some days, Witness G, did you leave that room, and if so,

7 where were you taken?

8 A. Several days later, Tyson came in, this other policeman who had

9 brought us there, and he looked like a commander because everybody obeyed

10 him, and told us that we were now going to be going to Keraterm. He put

11 us all in a van, and there was a large black dog in it. He drove us to

12 Keraterm.

13 Q. Just going back for a moment, during these interrogations, did

14 anything -- were you mistreated or -- in any way?

15 A. One couldn't say that I was mistreated and abused during the

16 questioning, only -- I only received one kick in leg by one soldier, but

17 it all ended at that.

18 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, what happened when you arrived at

19 Keraterm?

20 A. When we arrived at Keraterm, at the entrance, there was -- there

21 were scales and a small hut. That van came and stopped there, and there

22 they took our first and last names and wrote them down. Then the van took

23 us in front of Room 2 and there he told us to get off the van. When we

24 got off, he lined us up alongside a wall. We had to face the wall, place

25 our hands against the wall, and spread our legs. Then Tyson told Zigic

Page 1701

1 that he had four men for special treatment, and at that point, Zigic and

2 several other men started beating us. My -- those of us who were not for

3 special treatment were hit once, maybe twice, it was four of us, but those

4 who were for special treatment were really beaten so badly until they were

5 all covered in blood and until they had fallen down to the ground.

6 Q. Who were the persons who were for special treatment?

7 A. The two Jakupovic brothers, Sengin, and a guy whose nickname was

8 "machine-gunner." I don't know his name.

9 Q. Witness G, were you ever told what this term "special treatment"

10 meant?

11 A. Nothing was said, but we immediately understood, as soon as we

12 arrived at Keraterm. "Special treatment" meant that anybody could beat

13 such a person, kill such a person, do whatever they -- anybody pleased.

14 In fact, this is what happened to the people who were marked for special

15 treatment.

16 Q. And were you ever told or given a reason as to why the people were

17 so marked?

18 A. No one said that, but they were accusing the two Jakupovic

19 brothers that they had raped a young girl. To Sengin they said that he

20 had been a Green Beret. And the one whose nickname was "machine-gunner,"

21 they told him that -- about him they were saying that he had a

22 machine-gun, that he was caught with one, and that he was shooting at

23 Serbian children.

24 Q. What, Witness G, were you beaten with?

25 A. They mostly used rifle butts. Some had some metal pipes and some

Page 1702












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Page 1703

1 others had just simply wooden sticks.

2 Q. After the beating or, firstly, how long did the beating continue?

3 A. It went on. It is hard to say, but perhaps half an hour it

4 lasted.

5 Q. And what happened after it finished?

6 A. When they were done, they told us to go to the room, and they put

7 us in Room 2. And the four who were for special treatment were taken to

8 Room 2 next to the door so that whoever would come, they were always next

9 to the door, available for beating and mistreatment.

10 Q. Witness G, are you able to name any of the participants, the

11 people who actually did the beating?

12 A. When I arrived at Keraterm, I know that the person who beat me was

13 Zigic, and Duca Knezevic hit me once. But there were other men there, but

14 I don't know their names.

15 Q. Dealing firstly with this person Knezevic, did you know him prior

16 to your arrival at Keraterm, and if so, in what circumstances?

17 A. I did know him. I used to see him at the station in Orlovci when

18 I was passing by on the way to work. I would see him there often. And

19 also on the way back, I would also often see him on the bus. We were not

20 friends, but we knew each other. We frequently passed by one another.

21 Q. And what about the person Zigic?

22 A. I knew Zigic in a similar way as I knew Knezevic. He was a taxi

23 driver, so I would see him at the station.

24 Q. Now, Witness G, you said you were taken to Room 2. Did you remain

25 in Room 2 for your entire stay at the Keraterm camp?

Page 1704

1 A. I did not stay there all the time. I stayed there until -- I

2 stayed in Room 2 until my interrogation, and when I was done with

3 interrogation, I was moved to Room 4.

4 Q. Can you describe briefly, please, what the conditions in Room 2

5 were like?

6 A. In Room 2, conditions were very hard. It was a large room and it

7 was overflowing with inmates. We did not have food. We did not have

8 water. You had nothing to wash yourself with. It was too hot. There was

9 no light inside and things like that.

10 Q. Did you receive any food at all?

11 A. We were receiving food, one could say, every day once a day. That

12 was in the afternoon, between 3.00 or 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon. At

13 any rate, the food was distributed in the afternoon.

14 Q. And what was the food like?

15 A. The food consisted of always two slices of bread. They were

16 machine sliced. That thickness of a slice was 1 to 1.5 centimetres, and

17 there was some kind of a brew, some kind of a soup, sometimes a little bit

18 of potato or some beans or maybe some other food occasionally.

19 Q. And you said earlier that there was no water in the room. Did you

20 receive any water, any -- to drink?

21 A. We were sometimes getting drinking water. There was a hydrant in

22 Room 4 so that we were able to pour water when we were allowed to.

23 Q. Now, earlier you also said that you were interrogated during your

24 time in Room 2. Can you please explain to the Court what happened on that

25 occasion?

Page 1705

1 A. I waited in Room number 2 until I was interrogated. When I was --

2 when I went to be interrogated, a soldier escorted me there. He was

3 escorting people one by one. I arrived in front of the room. I waited a

4 little bit and then a soldier brought me in. There was a soldier standing

5 in the room, and there was another man also military uniform who was

6 sitting at a table and who interrogated us one by one as we were brought

7 in. He was asking questions.

8 Q. What sort of questions was he asking?

9 A. The questions were when I was born, where I was born, where I had

10 done my military service, where my family was now, did I have brothers,

11 where they were. So that was the start of questioning. Then they moved

12 on to asking questions such as "Where are your weapons?" who was on the

13 Green Beret list, where were Green Berets, and whether I was a Green

14 Beret.

15 Q. And what did you tell them?

16 A. I said that I was never a member of the Green Berets, that I was

17 never a member of the SDA, that I never had any weapons except for

18 properly registered pistol which I had had for about ten years or less.

19 Before the war had broken out, they had announced on the radio that

20 anybody with weapons should be reported. And I went to the SUP, and they

21 said that I had a properly registered pistol. They said that they were

22 aware of it and if they needed to, they would send someone to collect it

23 because it was a registered weapon.

24 Q. Witness G, at night-time did anything happen to the prisoners, and

25 if so, what?

Page 1706

1 A. Something was happening every night. Some people were taken out,

2 some were killed, and others were beaten up and returned to the rooms. It

3 was a rarity that a night would pass without someone being called out and

4 someone having something done to them.

5 Q. And what happened to the persons that had been beaten after they'd

6 been beaten?

7 A. The people who were beaten were then taken back to the rooms, and

8 people who were killed would be brought back to the room overnight during

9 the day and then in the evening they would be dumped on a dump. There

10 were debris of tiles and this is where they would be dumped.

11 Q. Did any of the detainees who had been beaten receive medical

12 attention?

13 A. At first I did not observe anyone receiving medical assistance.

14 Later on, when a number of people had been beaten, several men were taken

15 to the hospital. One had his arm broken. One had his head fractured.

16 And they received help. But the others did not get any medical help.

17 Q. Did you yourself ever observe a doctor in the camp, and if so,

18 what did you see that doctor doing?

19 A. I saw a physician once. I knew him. I think he was a

20 psychiatrist. And he came when one man was killed, to examine him. I

21 knew him from the commission that met for people who were trying to pass a

22 driver's test and he was there to see whether psychologically they were

23 all right. He was an ethnic Macedonian and I think that his last name was

24 Elenkov.

25 Q. Witness G, earlier you referred to this person Zigic and also the

Page 1707

1 person Knezevic in the camp beating prisoners. How often did you see them

2 in the camp? And on occasions that you saw them, what were they doing?

3 A. It was a rarity when Zigic and Knezevic were not in Keraterm.

4 Occasionally did happen, but they spent most of their time at Keraterm.

5 And whenever they came to Keraterm, we knew that somebody would either be

6 killed or badly beaten.

7 Q. Are there any events or is there any event that sticks out in your

8 mind when they did come and beat people?

9 A. Yes, there was one such event. I think that Knezevic's brother or

10 relative or cousin, somebody, was killed, and he came and told us that he

11 had been killed and all of us from Kozarac should then come out from the

12 dormitories, and if somebody failed to do, then he'd better hide well

13 because he would kill him. So all of us, 22 or, I don't know how many,

14 came out. Perhaps there were some from Kozarac who did not come out, I

15 don't know that. And 22 of us were then lined up on pista, in front of

16 Rooms 1 and 2, and they told us to kneel down and then they said that thus

17 on our knees and hands we should head for the gate or rather to that small

18 hut with the weigh bridge. And when we reached it, he then shouted at us

19 to come back. And we had to do it several times. And there was some

20 gravel on the asphalt so that the knees and palms of the hands of the

21 people there were all bloody.

22 And after that, we were ordered to line in two columns, and one

23 opposite the other and to face the other line, and when we turned to face

24 one another, then he ordered us to kneel down. And after we knelt down,

25 then he started, Zigic was behind, and another guy, I don't know his name,

Page 1708

1 walked between these two lines, walked between these two lines, and Zigic

2 picked up a metal rod. And with that rod he hit on the back of the head

3 or the back or wherever, simply wherever he happened to deal that blow,

4 but it was always on the back. And when he hit one, that rod bent because

5 it was a very thin wire, the ones that are used for central heating. And

6 then he ordered a guy to bring a thicker rod, of about two centimetres

7 thick, and with that rod, Zigic then went on beating. He would hit

8 everyone once or twice from the back. And the soldier who walked between

9 the two lines, between two columns, he hit everybody, then he would hit

10 him, and as Zigic would then strike him with this metal rod, his head

11 would come down, and this other one would hit everyone in the face, in the

12 chin, the neck, wherever.

13 I still have a scar here where I was hit, where the tissue was all

14 lacerated and where I bled.

15 Then when Zigic finished that round of beatings, he told us all to

16 stand up, and when we stood up, we again were lined in two columns and

17 facing one another. And he said that now we had to get involved in

18 fighting one another in twosomes, and he said that if we didn't get

19 properly involved, properly committed to such a fight, then he would

20 continue to beat us. And thus group by group started fighting. In that

21 column, I was the last one. I was facing Redzo Grabic, who was my

22 partner, my counterpart. And when the -- my turn came -- when our turn

23 came to engage in a fight, Kajin arrived from the weigh bridge and told

24 Zigic to stop it. And he said -- he told us to go to the dormitories

25 straight away.

Page 1709

1 At that point, I saw everything blackened before my eyes, and I

2 grabbed at Redzo's jacket, and when I came to, I was in Room 2.

3 Q. Witness G, you referred to a person Kajin. Did you know that

4 person's full name?

5 A. No. I never knew it. I only knew what everybody called him, and

6 that was Kajin, and that is how everybody knew him.

7 Q. And what was Kajin's role in the camp?

8 A. I think he was the commander of a shift. People talked, people

9 said that he was a commander, and he would come. If something was

10 underway, he would stop it. So that was how I knew that he commanded a

11 shift.

12 Q. Did you know him prior to your detention at Keraterm?

13 A. I don't think so. I may have come across him, but I did not know

14 him personally.

15 Q. How often did you see him while you were in the Keraterm camp?

16 A. Well, there were three shifts, which alternated, so that I could

17 say that it was every other day, every other, every third day, he would be

18 there.

19 Q. Can you describe what he looked like back in 1992 when you were in

20 the Keraterm camp?

21 A. Well, he was -- he looked like an athlete. He was tall, neither

22 thin nor fat. Shall we say an athletic type who was in good shape.

23 Q. Witness G, can you look around the courtroom today and see if you

24 can see that person Kajin?

25 A. I think it's that guy there.

Page 1710












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Page 1711

1 Q. Are-- you say you think. Does that indicate that you're not quite

2 certain?

3 A. Well, I'm not quite concern because ten years is a long time.

4 We've all changed, so that I cannot confirm it absolutely, but I think

5 that it is he.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness G. Now, you referred to Zigic and Knezevic who

7 were doing this beating and making the prisoners fight, and as they

8 fought, hitting them with metal rods in that indent that you've referred

9 to. Were there any regular guards involved, regular camp guards involved

10 in that activity?

11 A. Well, yes, brothers Banovic took part in it often. They were on a

12 shift, and they beat especially Albanians whilst there were any Albanians

13 there, but they also beat others.

14 Q. Witness G, on the occasion that you were called out with Redzo

15 Grabic, were the Banovic brothers involved in that incident?

16 A. They were on the side. Only Zigic and the other guy that I

17 mentioned, whose name I don't know, took part in that. All I know about

18 him is that he always kept -- never said anything. He only did things.

19 And whenever they would undertake something sordid, he would be there

20 beside Zigic.

21 Q. And to who are you referring when you say "he"?

22 A. I don't understand the question.

23 Q. I asked you about the Banovic brothers and whether they were

24 involved in this incident that took place with Zigic and Knezevic, and you

25 said, "They were on the side. Only Zigic and the other guy that I

Page 1712

1 sometimes -- that I mentioned, whose name I don't know, took part in

2 that. All I know about him is that he always kept -- never said

3 anything. He only did things. And whenever they would undertake

4 something sordid, he would be there beside Zigic."

5 How were you referring to there?

6 A. I meant that soldier whose name I don't know. I simply do not.

7 But he was with Zigic invariably. I don't know what his name is. I know

8 what he looked like. He was always in a long black coat, an ordinary

9 rifle, and he hit -- he was the one who hit me under the chin, and he

10 kicked me with his army boot and cut the skin there. And all the others

11 who were there, they would stand on the side. So that that time, Zigic

12 hit me from the back, that is, on the neck and back, and this guy hit me

13 from the front, that is, under my chin.

14 Q. Was this guy a regular guard in the camp?

15 JUDGE MAY: Do we really need to go into this? We've been in

16 immense detail over this incident.

17 MS. BALY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

18 Q. The -- Witness G, you're aware of an incident when you were in the

19 camp when the Room 3 massacre took place; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. I was in Room 4 when it happened in Room 3.

21 Q. Is it the case, Witness G, that, in fact, you only found out what

22 happened after several days and after having spoken to other persons who'd

23 witnessed the event?

24 A. Yes. First, when that incident happened in Room 3, we could not

25 go out for two days until it was all cleaned and until blood that was

Page 1713

1 there was removed. But after that, I met some people who had worked

2 together with me and who were in Room 3 and survived, rather, Hasan Besic,

3 specifically. I knew him because he worked for the same company as I

4 did. He worked in the warehouse there. And he told me that people had

5 been killed in Room 3, between 120 and 170. It is very difficult how

6 many, and I do not know that.

7 Q. Now, I want to take you back, please, Witness G, to the Banovic

8 brothers. Were you able to tell those brothers apart?

9 A. They were rather short. I couldn't really tell them apart, which

10 one was which, because I never knew them. They were short and they had

11 long black hair. And one of them was never without a baseball bat, and

12 with that baseball bat, he more often than not beat prisoners.

13 Q. Did he beat any prisoners in particular?

14 A. There were two prisoners. I know one of them who owned a

15 restaurant or something at the station in Prijedor which was called

16 Zvjezdas, and he beat him, and he was killed too. He died in Keraterm.

17 And he also beat a fair guy whose name was Besir and who was also an

18 Albanian. One evening he was taken away after being called out and he did

19 not come back, so I do not know what happened to him.

20 Q. Witness G, before the war, did you know a person by the name of

21 Goran Grahovac?

22 A. I knew Grahovac but only superficially. He lived about a

23 kilometre or perhaps two kilometres away from my place, and that is where

24 his grandfather lived too. [redacted]

25 [redacted], and he used to visit his aunt from

Page 1714

1 time to time. So that -- that is how we would meet. We pass by in a car,

2 would honk it, and I would happen to be, for instance, in my yard doing

3 something, so we'd say hello. And I suppose at times he would walk by,

4 but I wouldn't notice him.

5 Q. Did you see him while you were in Keraterm camp?

6 A. I saw him once. He came and they asked for me. They mentioned my

7 full name and requested that I come out. It was around 11.00 at night.

8 So I went out of the room, and one of the soldiers then took me up to a

9 floor above Room 4. There was a garage there and a truck. And Goran was

10 sitting there with five or six other soldiers. Those who were with Goran,

11 I knew some of them by sight, and they were from Orlovci. Others I did

12 not know. And at that point, as I stood in the middle, and they all

13 started beating me. Then Goran began to interrogate me and he asked me

14 about things which I simply don't understand what were they. He asked me

15 did I know him, did I know whose son he was, and I told him I didn't. And

16 then he swore at me and said that he was Grahovac and that Grozda was his

17 aunt and that he often passed by my house. After --

18 Q. Witness G, was this person one of the personnel, the official

19 personnel, in the camp, or was he from outside of the camp? That is

20 Grahovac.

21 A. That person was not employed in the camp. It was the first time

22 that I saw him there, and I think the last time that I saw him in

23 Keraterm. I saw him yet another time but that was in Trnopolje when this

24 was disbanded.

25 Q. And did he ask you some questions during this incident, and if so,

Page 1715

1 what questions did he ask you?

2 A. Well, he -- at first he asked me some irrelevant questions, and

3 they beat me lightly, but after sometime he said to those soldiers, "Fuck

4 his mother, he's not talking. Take him to that room." And I started

5 towards that room. And when I was near the door, and it had a metal door,

6 and somebody hit me with a rod on the head, and I fell. It was all black

7 before my eyes. I may have been a minute or two or perhaps longer

8 unconscious. And then they ordered me, "Stand up." So I stood up and

9 Goran then beckoned me back. And he then said to me, "Tell us where did

10 you hide 50.000 marks and a kilogram of gold? Did you dig it into the

11 ground somewhere?" And I told him that I didn't have that money. And

12 that gold I had dug in somewhere because that was jewellery which belonged

13 to my wife, to my daughter and my mother. And then he asked me, "Well,

14 where did you bury that then?" And I described the place in detail. And

15 he then said, "Take him to the dormitory." And a guy then saw me off to

16 the dormitory and I went in. And just as I had somehow fitted in there,

17 they called me out again and I came out again. And at that moment, that

18 same guy who had escorted me to the dormitory asked me then to tell him

19 exactly where that was buried because they didn't have much time to waste

20 looking around for it. And I told him, "Well as I already told you, it's

21 still there." And then I explained in great detail how he could find it

22 because Grahovac knows where my house is. And that guard, or rather that

23 soldier, that soldier then took me back into the room.

24 The next day, when the dawn broke, Grahovac called me out again.

25 And when I came out, he was sitting behind that weigh hut on a beer crate,

Page 1716

1 and when I fetched up in front of him, he offered me a cigarette. And at

2 that moment he said that he had not found the gold and that I had lied to

3 him. And after some time and ill-treatment and questioning about I don't

4 know what, when I said nothing because I did not have what to say, then he

5 told me that, yes, he'd found that gold, and that he -- but that he had

6 found it at a different place.

7 And throughout this episode, a man called -- who was a postman,

8 who was nicknamed Fustar, stood by. And at that moment the new commander

9 of the camp arrived. I think he was new. He was grey-haired. He came

10 through the gate and Fustar told Grahovac, "Get lost. Here comes the

11 commander." And I fled to my room, number 4, and Grahovac jumped the

12 fence and left.

13 Q. Just pause there for a moment, Witness G. This person Fustar,

14 what was his role in the camp?

15 A. Well, he was also a commander of a shift.

16 Q. And you referred to someone who was the new commander. What was

17 his position in relation to Fustar?

18 A. Well, I think that at that time, and it was after the incident in

19 Room 3, and that man came and held a meeting or something of about ten

20 minutes, and said that this must not happen again, ever. And that same

21 man came that day when I had this incident where Fustar was present, and

22 that is why I decided that he had come to replace Sikirica after the

23 massacre.

24 Q. You never had any contact with Sikirica in the camp; is that

25 correct?

Page 1717

1 A. I never had any contact with him.

2 Q. Witness G, did you ever see a person called Dusko Tadic while you

3 were in Keraterm camp?

4 A. I saw him only once.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. Well, that was when a driver from my company was killed, and a few

7 other lads, but that driver's nickname was Spija.

8 Q. How was Spija killed?

9 A. Spija was battered with a metal rod or a rifle butt or a piece of

10 wood, whatever. He was battered in a few minutes, and they called out for

11 somebody to carry Spija. When they brought him to Room 4, we had a guy

12 there from Trnopolje who was doing his third year or four-year course in

13 medicine, and he tried his pulse and told us that the man was dead.

14 Q. What was Spija's full name?

15 A. I don't remember his real name. I know him -- I knew him well.

16 I've known him for some ten or 15 years, but everybody called him Spija,

17 and he was a driver for GIK Mrakovica.

18 Q. In relation to this person Spija, did anything happen to his

19 clothing after he was declared dead?

20 A. A few minutes later, somebody asked -- we were locked in our room,

21 and somebody said to take off Spija his white sneakers, because they were

22 new, and a leather jacket that he had on. And a person took off that

23 jacket and those sneakers and handed them over to the soldier who had

24 asked for them. I don't know who that was.

25 Q. Now, Witness G, when the camp closed, that is Keraterm camp, where

Page 1718

1 were you taken?

2 A. I was taken to Trnopolje, to the camp at Trnopolje.

3 Q. And were you taken there on a bus with a number of other

4 prisoners?

5 A. At that time, the Keraterm camp was disbanded and a number of

6 buses had come. First they selected -- they called out about 120 men who

7 were told that they would go to Omarska, and after they left, a long

8 column of buses arrived and they began to put us on those buses, one

9 dormitory after another. And after we were all in those buses, we were

10 transferred to the Trnopolje camp.

11 Q. And eventually you were released, is that correct, Witness G?

12 A. I wasn't released. We stayed on in the camp, in Trnopolje. I

13 stayed there some 20 days or perhaps a month. I don't know. And after

14 that they wanted to exchange me, and that is how I arrived in Donji Vakuf,

15 where I spent three days. After three days, they took us for exchange,

16 and we were then exchanged in Travnik.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness G.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

19 Mr. Greaves, any cross-examination?

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

21 Q. Witness G, can you help us, please? Before the war, were you

22 involved in any way in politics?

23 A. Before the war, I was a member of that Communist Party of

24 Yugoslavia, nothing else besides.

25 Q. And since the war have you taken part, either by way of membership

Page 1719












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Page 1720

1 or as being an activist, in politics?

2 A. Absolutely not. I was in no other party after that party

3 dissolved before the war. After that, I joined no other party.

4 Q. Did you, after your final departure from the Prijedor area, did

5 you serve at all in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Not a single minute.

7 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, about the takeover of power at

8 the end of April 1992 by Serb-dominated authorities. It's right, isn't

9 it, that you continued to work normally at your place of work until the

10 22nd of May, 1992?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. And upon ending your work on that day, it's also right that upon

13 returning home, you were able to observe everybody working normally in the

14 fields, minding their own business; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. That is how it was. People were in their fields working,

16 going about their business. For the most part, they were in agriculture.

17 Q. And that had been the case since the takeover of power, had it

18 not?

19 A. Yes, that is how it was until that day, until the shooting

20 started.

21 Q. When we talk of your home at that time, May 1992, was that in the

22 village or small town of Kozarac or just outside Kozarac?

23 A. That was in Kozarusa. This is outside of Kozarac.

24 Q. And in the period leading up to the incident on the 24th of May,

25 had there been established in that area a checkpoint which was manned by

Page 1721

1 armed Muslims?

2 A. I worked in Prijedor, and I spent all the time in Prijedor. My

3 house was exactly between Garevci and Kozarac. I very rarely went to

4 Kozarac. I only went there if I needed to go to a barber or if I needed

5 to get something. I dealt with all my affairs in Prijedor.

6 Q. And so is your answer you knew of or you did not know of such a

7 checkpoint, Witness G?

8 A. We did not have a checkpoint where I was, and checkpoints existed

9 only at Orlovci and in Prijedor. Perhaps in Kozarac too. I do not say

10 that there were no checkpoints, but I do not know of them because I wasn't

11 there.

12 Q. In due course, after the shelling had begun in your area and a

13 command or an order came down that you should be taken to a safe place,

14 was it your understanding that that order had come from the Serbian high

15 command?

16 A. This is -- this was our understanding, that this was the order.

17 And this neighbour of mine came to me. His house was about 200 metres

18 away from me. He told me that the order came from the command, that we

19 should all go to -- in front of the local commune at Kozarusa and from

20 there we would be bused to some safe place where there was no shooting.

21 Q. Having been placed on buses, you were -- can I just clarify this?

22 Men of military age were put on one side of the bus and women and children

23 and other people were put on the opposite side; is that correct?

24 A. You mean on the bus?

25 Q. When you were taken to Trnopolje. Or was it just men on the bus

Page 1722

1 going to Trnopolje?

2 A. There were only men in some buses, and on other buses they placed

3 women, children, and the elderly.

4 Q. And so just again to clarify, the men on the buses were men aged

5 principally between 16 and 60 years; is that correct?

6 A. You could say so, yes.

7 Q. And that was a separation maintained in terms of accommodation

8 during your stay at Trnopolje, until the women and children were taken

9 away or released; is that right?

10 A. No. We were separated for about three days, until more space

11 opened up in Trnopolje. Women and children were in the school building

12 and the gymnasium at Trnopolje, and the men were outside and in some old

13 hall. After a few days, when we were too many, nobody paid any attention

14 any more who was with whom. So we were all mixed, men, women, children,

15 so that the families could visit.

16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I suspect the witness, as well as do I

17 find it slightly disconcerting seeing as he's got to peer around the ELMO

18 at me. I wonder whether it could be moved, please, because I can see that

19 he's having to lean back from the microphones.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Could the ELMO be adjusted.

21 MR. GREAVES: Push it back, please, yes. I'm not planning to use

22 it. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

23 Q. So when this mixing took place, was that simply something that the

24 detainees did for themselves without reference to the people who were

25 running Trnopolje?

Page 1723

1 A. I think that this simply happened spontaneously because there was

2 no room either in the school building or in this hall. We were forced to

3 be outside. And then, of course, people started looking around for their

4 wives. And at that point, nobody prohibited us. We were separated for

5 about three days, and then later on we all mixed in together.

6 Q. Was that partly brought about because large numbers of people were

7 arriving each day, up to a thousand?

8 A. I think that that is why this mingling took place in the camp.

9 Q. Witness G, were you able to conclude from what you saw of how the

10 camp was organised in terms of what we have just been talking about, were

11 you able to conclude that in fact there wasn't a great deal of

12 organisation taking place from the authorities who had opened the camp?

13 A. There was no organisation because there weren't enough of those

14 who were guards, and there were too many of us who were behind that fence,

15 who were in the school building, and whatever that other building was. I

16 wasn't going there so often. I didn't know. So we were just trying to

17 find our way, whichever way we could.

18 Q. Could I turn now, please, to the departure of your family from

19 Trnopolje? They were released in mid-June; is that right?

20 A. Probably it was so. I don't know the exact time. They were taken

21 to Banja Luka. They were put in cars and taken there. There they waited

22 for about three hours until the train moved along. Then they were

23 transferred to -- some were to Doboj and from there they had to go on foot

24 until they reached Zenica.

25 Q. Then it's travel to Zagreb; is that right?

Page 1724

1 A. After a period of time, my wife and children went to Zagreb, and

2 then from there, to my sister's place in Slovenia.

3 Q. Your family's release was not unique, was it? This is what

4 happened to all -- most, if not all, of the families who were in

5 Trnopolje; is that right?

6 A. This happened -- I think that this is what happened. I was in

7 another camp. I wasn't there. But from what my wife told me, some 2.000

8 people were put on this train and this is how they arrived at Zenica.

9 Q. Were there people left behind after the families had departed,

10 according to your information?

11 A. A lot of women and children and men remained there, and everything

12 was mixed. There were older and younger people there. I know that when I

13 came from Keraterm after it was closed and arrived at Trnopolje for the

14 first time I found them there. Some had remained in Trnopolje and the

15 others had left in this one, if I can call it, a convoy.

16 Q. Moving on to Keraterm, did you see any of those who had been

17 guards at Trnopolje at Keraterm?

18 A. There was different staff at Keraterm. I cannot say that I saw

19 the same guards from Trnopolje in Keraterm. I'm not sure that I saw any

20 of them there. I cannot say.

21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm about to move on to another topic.

22 I don't know at what time Your Honour wants to take a break.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the break at ten minutes to 4.00.

24 MR. GREAVES: Thanks very much. That's very helpful.

25 Q. Witness G, can you help me, please? You were taken in due course

Page 1725

1 to the barracks at Prijedor, and you've described one of those people as

2 being obviously from the military police. Was that the case in respect of

3 all of those who were in charge of guarding you at Prijedor barracks, that

4 they were members of the military police?

5 A. No some were in uniform without belts. I mentioned one who was

6 quite short, was wearing a fur hat with a Kokarda and was wearing some

7 dark clothes. So there weren't only policemen there.

8 Q. There were other people who were detained at the same time as you,

9 and if so, how many, at the barracks?

10 A. At that time, in room where I was, we were about eight, plus\minus

11 one person, I don't know exactly.

12 Q. And were those eight or thereabouts, were they all men of military

13 age?

14 A. Yes. They were all of the age up to 50, approximately. Except

15 for this one boy who was underaged, the son of this Lovic.

16 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you were asked about in particular

17 whether you had had weapons, and whether you knew of the whereabouts of

18 Green Berets, and when you were unable to provide him with any answers, it

19 was that which set him off beating you; is that right?

20 A. That is right. He started beating us and he repeated the same

21 thing three times.

22 Q. When you say "beating us," were you all together, these eight

23 people, however many there were, at the same time being beaten, or was

24 this being done separately?

25 A. Myself, Redzo Grabic and Mujkanovici were beaten together. That

Page 1726

1 was while we were being brought to the barracks, the three of us, and then

2 they beat the others separately.

3 Q. Just on the topic which you were asked about, before you had been

4 detained at all and taken to Trnopolje, had you been aware of any military

5 activity at all along the road from Kozarusa to Prijedor, Witness G?

6 A. No, except that we were told, that is what we heard on the radio,

7 that there would be a military column coming from Bihac going to Banja

8 Luka, and people were told to stay put in order not to obstruct the column

9 as they were -- would be passing. And this is all I know about those

10 things. This was before the beginning, before the start, around 2.30,

11 when the shooting first started.

12 Q. Had you been aware before your detention, either from your own

13 observation or from being told about it, of Muslims arming themselves and

14 preparing in any way to fight with or resist the Serbs?

15 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you specifically but I don't think you

16 could say so. When the war in Croatia started, we were together with

17 those neighbours who were there with us. They were simply upset. They

18 thought that these HOS people were cross over from Croatia, this is how

19 they called them. And then when Ranko Vlacina and with Bobo Vlacina, Ilja

20 Vlacina, the four or five of us were always there together. Their houses

21 were the first ones and then our houses were next. So we were there. We

22 did not have any weapons. And they were our neighbours so we never

23 counted of what later happened it would happen, because their three or

24 four houses were amongst our own homes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves, I think we will now take the

Page 1727

1 break for 20 minutes.

2 Witness G, you're reminded not to discuss your evidence with

3 anybody during the adjournment, and that includes the members of the

4 Prosecution team. To ten past 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

8 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, could I just mention that there is a

9 matter that I would like to raise on behalf of all the Defence at the end

10 of today, which will take between five and ten minutes, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I think for that purpose then, we may break

12 five minutes before five.

13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

14 Q. Witness G, I want now to turn very quickly to the time when you

15 were delivered to Keraterm by the man you've described as Tyson: The

16 other people who were there as taking part in this beating, you've

17 described someone I think with the name of Sengin or Sengin [pronounced

18 phonetically]. Was he somebody called Jasmin Ramadanovic?

19 A. I don't know. I know that he was -- that everybody called him

20 Sengin. What his real name is, I don't know.

21 Q. And it was the man Tyson who effectively organised or said to

22 Zigic that you were to be singled out or people in your group were to be

23 singled out for special treatment; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. Tyson told Zigic that those four were for special treatment,

25 and for another four, he said nothing. It only applied to those four,

Page 1728












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1729

1 Sengin, the machine-gunner, and the two Jakupovic brothers. The four of

2 them were intended for special treatment.

3 Q. And Tyson was not, and was not at any time, on the camp staff, was

4 he?

5 A. Not at that time. He turned us over and left.

6 Q. I'd like to turn now to an occasion when Zigic was involved in

7 beating a group, I think, of some 22 or so people sometime before the 14th

8 of July. It's right, isn't it, that that incident concluded when Kajin

9 came to the gate where the scales were and told Zigic to stop what he was

10 doing?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And --

13 A. As far as I can remember, that is how it was.

14 Q. Is it also right that upon being so ordered, Zigic did stop

15 beating the people?

16 A. Yes, that's right. He stopped at the very same moment and said,

17 "Just beat it to your room."

18 Q. Is it also correct that on at least one occasion or more a doctor

19 came to Keraterm and examined prisoners?

20 A. A doctor came once, a Macedonian, and I've just remembered his

21 name, Elenkov. I knew because I had to go see him several times about my

22 driving licence.

23 Q. Witness G, you were interrogated. Can you recall what the date of

24 your interrogation was, please?

25 A. I can't. I do not know. I have no idea.

Page 1730

1 Q. Would it have been about one month after your arrival at Room 2 at

2 Keraterm? Would that be correct?

3 A. Well, it could be. Perhaps a little less. Between 15 and 30

4 days, but I really cannot pinpoint the date because I just don't know.

5 Q. Were you escorted to the interrogation by one of the guards from

6 Keraterm?

7 A. One called out -- called me out and said that it was my turn for

8 interrogation and took me to the building. The interrogations took place

9 on the upper floor. There I was taken over by another soldier and

10 escorted me to the room and then the interrogation continued there.

11 Q. And was that the only role that the guard performed during the

12 interrogation process, simply to escort you to and from the

13 interrogation?

14 A. Yes. That was his only role, I think.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

16 microphone or have the microphones brought closer to him.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness G, please come closer to the microphone.


19 Q. Witness G, the questions you were asked you've told us a little

20 about. Were they particularly interested in whether you or your family

21 had been involved in the military?

22 A. Well, I don't know what they wanted to know. I know what they

23 asked me.

24 Q. Just in that connection, without mentioning either his

25 relationship to you or his name, one of your relatives was a member of the

Page 1731

1 Bosnian 7th Corps; is that right?

2 A. At that time, I knew nothing about that.

3 Q. Did you subsequently learn that that was the case?

4 A. Subsequently, yes, when we left the camp.

5 Q. And was that because when you were exchanged, it became clear to

6 you that you had been specifically requested for exchange because of your

7 relationship to this person?

8 A. I did not realise that until I arrived in Travnik, and afterwards

9 they told me that there were some captured Serbs and that was why they had

10 exchanged us because they had asked for me and for two brothers to be

11 exchanged.

12 Q. Did you know the person who was interrogating -- to go back to

13 your interrogation, did you know the person who was interrogating you?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. Again, the people who were involved in the interrogations, they

16 were not part of the camp staff, were they?

17 A. No, they were not, because they would come every day when there

18 were interrogations. They would come to the camp, climb upstairs to those

19 interrogation rooms, and they would spend their time there, and once the

20 interrogations were over, they would leave.

21 Q. One of the consequences of your interrogation were that you were

22 moved from where you were to Room 4; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that is right. It was a kind of a custom. After the

24 interrogation, above Room -- from Room 2 people would be transferred to

25 Room 1. When the Room 1 was filled up, we were transferred to Room 4,

Page 1732

1 after every interrogation those who had been through that and finished

2 with it.

3 Q. I'd like to move please to the Room 3 incident. It's right, isn't

4 it, that the people who perpetrated that were, according to what you

5 learnt, soldiers from outside the camp, not employed as camp staff?

6 A. Difficult to say that because we were locked up in our rooms.

7 However, two trucks with men arrived, and who did that, I cannot say for

8 sure.

9 Q. You were not able to see -- you were locked into the room so that

10 nobody in the room that you were in could see anything of what was going

11 on? Is that the position?

12 A. Well, not quite. A person who was near the door could see, since

13 the door to Room 4 was painted and the men scraped off the colour and they

14 could peep through and see what went on outside. But only one person, not

15 more of them. And when it all happened, it was night-time.

16 Q. Is this correct, Witness G, that for some two days in total after

17 that incident, you, the people in your room, were not let out at all?

18 A. We did not leave our room, and I'm sure that other people from

19 other rooms did not come out either until the whole place was cleaned

20 after what had happened. And when we did come out, we could still see

21 that the concrete and the wall were still bloody, and there were countless

22 holes from either machine-gun projectiles or whatever. One could see it

23 in the walls, which were brick walls.

24 Q. And just so that we can establish it with certainty, the period

25 during which you were not let out of the rooms was the day immediately

Page 1733

1 following the night of the massacre, is that correct, and the day after

2 that?

3 A. Yes, that is right. We did not come out the following day

4 either. We had to use a kind of a barrel, a tin barrel in the room, and

5 that was what was put there for us to relieve ourselves in.

6 Q. So the next time that you emerge from the room is then the morning

7 following those two days?

8 A. Yes. I think it was a morning when we were let out to go to the

9 WC, stretch our legs a little, and we could stand next to the wall because

10 there was a small grassy lawn and we could stand there up to the path. We

11 were not allowed to cross the path.

12 Q. The incident involving the gentleman who owned the ice cream and

13 cake shop at Prijedor station, Zvjezdas or Zvjezdas, is this right, that

14 the motive for ill-treating him was to try and extort money or valuables

15 from him?

16 A. I cannot say that. I cannot say it because I do not know what the

17 motive was. I know they were cursing him and swearing at his Albanian

18 mother and beating him. As for money or something, I cannot tell you

19 because I don't know.

20 Q. In general, the Banovic brothers, was their motivation in

21 ill-treating people to try and extort money from them? Do you know that?

22 A. I don't. I know nothing about it, so I cannot really say yes or

23 no. I do not know what the reason was. I know that those two Albanians

24 were beaten to death, Besim and that Zvjezdas. I know that they were

25 taken out quite a number of times and beaten with a baseball bat. Why, I

Page 1734

1 do not know.

2 Q. Witness G, as far as -- you've told us that you had no direct

3 contact with a man called Sikirica. Is this correct, that in regard to

4 information concerning him, you had to rely on information from other

5 people?

6 A. Yes. Everybody said, and guards also said, because we all had

7 friends or colleagues or school fellows, people who were quite good

8 colleagues, and they would come into the dormitories and talk to their

9 colleagues, so they themselves said that Sikirica was the camp commander.

10 I don't have a paper to that effect, nor did I get some order. I had no

11 way of finding out whether that was so.

12 Q. The new commander's name, was that Marinko Sandzak?

13 A. I do not know what his name is. I can only describe him to you.

14 I know that he had grey hair and that he was slightly over 50. I don't

15 know what his name is, absolutely, I just don't.

16 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour would just give me a moment, please?

17 Q. Did you know anything of where the new commander came from or

18 where he worked?

19 A. No. I didn't know and I do not know where he came from.

20 Q. Witness G, does the name Zivko Knezevic mean anything to you?

21 A. Zivko Knezevic? I heard that he was in the police station, that

22 he was the chief of the police station or something, but I just don't know

23 the man.

24 Q. Can I ask you now, please, about somebody called Bajazit

25 Jakupovic? Is that a name with which you're familiar?

Page 1735

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you aware during your stay in Keraterm of the presence of

3 somebody who was a military pilot, who was a detainee?

4 A. Yes. I once saw a guy and everybody said that he was a military

5 pilot, that he was a pilot for the army, and I think that his name was

6 Jakupovic or something, but I'm not sure. He was in the camp.

7 Q. Was he the only pilot of whom you were aware at the camp?

8 A. He was the only one I knew. I don't know about any others.

9 Q. Did you become aware that he had gone to Omarska?

10 A. No. No, I don't know. I don't know what happened to him. I know

11 the man was -- he seemed to have become unhinged. He would come out when

12 he was not supposed to and - I don't know - was around there. But what

13 happened to him, I don't know.

14 Q. Finally, Witness G, during either of your stays at Trnopolje, did

15 you see personally Dusko Sikirica at Trnopolje?

16 A. In Trnopolje, no, I did not see him there.

17 Q. Thank you very much, Witness G. Hang on a second. Sorry. Would

18 you wait a moment, please.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. GREAVES: There's one point I had forgotten.

21 Q. Witness G, when the Keraterm was closed, it's right, isn't it,

22 that two buses took prisoners to Omarska, and they were in total about

23 120? Do you recall that?

24 A. I do, yes. About 120. And they said they were going to Omarska.

25 Where they went, I don't know.

Page 1736

1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

3 Mr. Rodic.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness G. During your examination-in-chief, you

6 said that you were going to work all the way until 22 May 1992; is that

7 correct?

8 A. I went to work until 22 May.

9 Q. Do you know whether other people did go to work in the month of

10 May? Did they go to work at that time?

11 A. For the most part, they did, but some people did not because there

12 wasn't enough work, some people, that is, but I don't think that that was

13 the reason.

14 Q. Can you tell me, you mentioned that very day that there was a

15 checkpoint to which you came and you saw different people wearing

16 different uniforms there. What I'm interested in is that period May to

17 August of that year. Did you see different uniforms that people were

18 wearing at that time?

19 A. Yes. There were different types of uniforms.

20 Q. This was all in the Prijedor area?

21 A. Yes, in the Prijedor area and that checkpoint at Orlovci.

22 Q. When you mentioned 24th of May and how you heard on Radio Prijedor

23 that a military column was moving along the Prijedor-Banja Luka road and

24 that it was asked that it be allowed to pass in an unobstructed way, did

25 you learn later where it was obstructed or not?

Page 1737












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1738

1 A. The column never reached Kozarusa, where we lived. The shooting

2 started before they reached that point.

3 Q. In the first 12 days that you spent at Trnopolje, can you tell me

4 whether you were interrogated by anyone there?

5 A. I was not interrogated in Trnopolje by anyone at that time.

6 Q. Can you tell me something about the security of Trnopolje, the

7 area where you were at that time?

8 A. It would be hard to say anything about the security. There were

9 guards there. They were walking about. There was some low fence. I

10 don't know what it was, some kind of a sports field or something. They

11 were around there, but there wasn't a large number of them, so

12 occasionally they allowed us to go and pick up some corn or something to

13 eat.

14 Q. In other words, they allowed you to leave the perimeter, to leave

15 that compound, if we can call it that way?

16 A. These were individuals who knew these guards well. They were

17 either school friends or colleagues from work or someone like that.

18 Q. When you mentioned your transfer to the Prijedor barracks, you

19 mentioned a name of that military policeman as being nicknamed Tyson, the

20 person who beat you. Can you tell me whether anybody tried to prevent him

21 in doing this?

22 A. Nobody prevented him from beating us, but after the third time,

23 when he went out and said, "I'll be back in a minute," and when he told us

24 that he would cut our throats if we did not tell him where the weapons

25 were, a minute later he came back with a knife in his hand. At that

Page 1739

1 point, a military policeman entered the room from outside. He was tall,

2 about 30 years old, and he told Tyson to go back to the room, and he took

3 to us the prison that was across from the toilet where we were being

4 beaten - that prison only had bars - and he locked us in and took the key

5 with him.

6 Q. Can you tell me, this soldier, this military policeman who -- the

7 military policemen like Tyson, were they regular policemen or something

8 else?

9 A. I don't know. Tyson was wearing only a belt, and the other

10 policeman who defended us, who locked us up, he had both a belt around the

11 waist and another belt or strap across the shoulder. I don't know if they

12 were the same unit or not.

13 Q. You said that you were interrogated three times in the barracks;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me who it was that interrogated you?

17 A. The first time, Tyson interrogated and beat us. Then we were

18 taken to the room, but I cannot tell you the names. I didn't know these

19 people. They were only wearing military uniforms. That's all I know

20 about them.

21 Q. You don't need to try to push your memory. I only ask you to tell

22 me what you know. When you were taken to these offices -- and people

23 there, did they have any military ranks? Could you distinguish them from

24 the military policemen in any way?

25 A. I did not notice any rank insignia on them. They were just in the

Page 1740

1 SMB uniform.

2 Q. During these interrogations, were these individuals making any

3 notes, taking notes of the questions -- of the answers that you were

4 giving them?

5 A. They probably did, because they had a pen and paper on their

6 desks. It's hard for me to tell you.

7 Q. From the barracks, you were taken in a van to Keraterm. Did this

8 van have any markings of the military police on it?

9 A. I believe that it was a civilian van. There were no military

10 markings on it. It looked like a civilian vehicle.

11 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, did Tyson call this group a group

12 for special treatment? Did he identify them as such?

13 A. As I said, there were eight of us that -- who arrived, and those

14 four he designated as the ones for special treatment and not the four of

15 us. So only four were singled out for that.

16 Q. Do you know Samir Sistek?

17 A. The name does not ring any bells.

18 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, you were placed in Room 2. Can you

19 describe in some detail where exactly you were staying, given the room?

20 A. I was at rear to the right. There was a wire -- a fenced-in part

21 where there was machinery, so that was fenced off.

22 Q. Can you tell me, as you look down into the room from the entrance

23 door to the place where you were, what would be the distance,

24 approximately?

25 A. It could have been six to seven metres, I couldn't give you. It

Page 1741

1 changed too. At one day, you were in one place, and the next day,

2 wherever you are able to find a spot.

3 Q. In the situation where you were in that position in number 2 where

4 you found a spot, between that spot and the door, how many men

5 approximately were there? I don't ask you an accurate number.

6 A. There were a lot of people. I think that there were a total of

7 about 400 of us in that room.

8 Q. Was there a barrel where you relieved yourself in that room?

9 A. At first, it wasn't there. I don't remember it, because we were

10 let out to the toilet, which was behind Rooms 2 and 3.

11 Q. Was this barrel brought in at a later time?

12 A. I don't know. I only know that after the incident, a barrel was

13 brought into Room 4.

14 Q. After your arrival, who called out the Jakupovic brothers and

15 Sengin that same night?

16 A. It was Zigic who called them out, and he also beat them, and

17 obviously the other company that was with him.

18 Q. You mentioned a person who frequently came with Zigic and who did

19 not speak much, and you said that you did not know his name. Is his

20 description something like this? That he was of medium build, short, dark

21 hair, maybe a bit longer, going down to his shoulders, darker complexion?

22 A. From what I remember, he was medium height, he was thinner rather

23 than fat, and as far as his hair cut, I really wouldn't be able to tell

24 you. I don't remember that.

25 Q. On one occasion you mentioned a person who was missing an arm, who

Page 1742

1 was coming to the camp. Do you know that his name was Mico Kobas?

2 A. I don't know his name. I only saw him once. He was down there at

3 Keraterm.

4 Q. Do you know that he brought some disinfectants to Keraterm?

5 A. Yes, on one occasion he did, because we had lice, so we -- he

6 brought it for us.

7 Q. When they took you from Room 2 to the upper floor to be

8 interrogated, did the person who interrogated you make any notes on the

9 basis of conversation that you had?

10 A. He was writing something. I saw him with a pen and paper while he

11 interrogated me.

12 Q. You also said that the investigators were not part of the Keraterm

13 security, and given their comings and goings in the camp, can you give us

14 an assessment, were these investigators hierarchically higher up than the

15 guards in the Keraterm?

16 A. It is hard for me to tell you. From what I know, they were

17 coming, interrogating, and then leaving in the evening. Then they would

18 come back the next morning when there were interrogations. Sometimes

19 interrogations would stop and then several days later they would come

20 back. And perhaps they were involved in some other work meanwhile.

21 Q. When you moved to Room 4, can you tell me approximately how many

22 people were there in that room at that time?

23 A. Maybe between 300 and 400.

24 Q. Again, the same question as I asked you about Room 2: Where was

25 your exact position in that room?

Page 1743

1 A. As you enter the room, I was to the right. I was -- there were

2 the people to the left and people to the right. I was a bit -- I was at a

3 place that was between mid-point and a bit closer to the door.

4 Q. Would you express that in metres?

5 A. Perhaps four metres away from the door.

6 Q. Was Drago Tokmadzic also -- a policeman, also with you in that

7 room?

8 A. Yes, Drago Tokmadzic, the policeman, was there.

9 Q. What can you tell us about him?

10 A. He was placed in that room, I don't know how long he was there,

11 but one night he was called out, taken out, and about within ten minutes,

12 he was killed. He just -- they just told us to come and carry him in, and

13 we brought him in and the next day he was taken out.

14 Q. Do you remember who had called him out?

15 A. It is hard for me to say at this point because quite a bit of time

16 has passed by, and you're not always able to tell by voice who was calling

17 people out.

18 Q. And can you recall whether somebody called him from outside or a

19 person came in to call him out?

20 A. I think that it -- somebody came to the door and they called him

21 from the doorway.

22 Q. Can you tell me, did Grahovac also beat you on that same night?

23 A. It wasn't the same night.

24 Q. When was it in relation to that night, approximately?

25 A. Grahovac beat me one day before the closing of Keraterm. When

Page 1744

1 Keraterm was disbanded, one day before that, he beat me.

2 Q. Who was present when you were beaten?

3 A. There was Grahovac and six men with him. I don't know their

4 names, but I knew some of them because they were from Orlovci, and I knew

5 them from -- in passing, from when I was going to work and passed through

6 there.

7 Q. And how did you go back to the room?

8 A. After all this, one of the soldiers from the group escorted me,

9 that is from the group who were -- of soldiers who were with Grahovac.

10 Q. That means it wasn't one of the regular guards from the shift?

11 A. No, he wasn't -- Grahovac came with this crew of his. There were

12 six or seven of them. I saw them for the first time on that occasion and

13 it was also the last time that I saw them.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, to give us time to deal with the

15 matter that Mr. Greaves has intimated he wishes to have us consider, we

16 will have the witness leave now.

17 Witness G, you may leave now and return tomorrow morning at 9.30.

18 During the break you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody,

19 including members of the Prosecution team.

20 Please escort the witness.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

23 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, yes. It arises out of a question that

24 Your Honour asked of the witness yesterday afternoon concerning the

25 defendant Sikirica. Your Honour, what you said -- and I've got copies

Page 1745

1 here of the three relevant passages I'm going to draw Your Honours'

2 attention to. I'm afraid I don't have the French version because we don't

3 yet have a French transcript of any of the hearings thus far. And there

4 are two for my learned friends as well.

5 Your Honour will see there's an extract from page 1597. At that

6 point, Your Honour lifted what appeared to us on the Defence side of the

7 room to be a copy of the summary of the witness who was giving evidence

8 and asked the question:

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you gave evidence that after the

10 second massacre, which was the day after the first, you

11 saw him when the bodies were being removed.

12 And you then went on to ask him whether he had seen Sikirica at

13 any time after that and prior to his leaving.

14 Your Honour, the answers that had been given in relation to those

15 two matters are set out in the two extracts at 1578 and 1580.

16 The effect of the first passage is that the witness was saying, in

17 relation to Simo Drljaca and Sikirica, in particular in relation to

18 Sikirica, at line 23:

19 Q. Did you see him in the presence of any other

20 dignitaries?

21 A. I think that accompanying him was Sikirica, but I cannot

22 assert that. I think that he was.

23 Over the page:

24 Q. Was it just the two of them, the person you think may

25 have been Sikirica or Drljaca, or were there yet other

Page 1746












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1747

1 people with them?

2 And the second passage relates to the period after the second

3 massacre. Counsel for the Prosecution asked the witness -- was looking

4 for the answer that Your Honour was anticipating, but it didn't come and

5 he quite properly then desisted from asking.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What line is that?

7 MR. GREAVES: Line 10 of page 1581, which is -- just begins at the

8 top there.

9 Q. Did you see who was present during the loading of that

10 second truck on the second day?

11 A. No. We could not see it then, because we were not

12 allowed to leave the rooms.

13 And then the counsel for the Prosecution goes on and asks about

14 Jasmin Causevic.

15 So the effect of the evidence is there is no evidence, in our

16 submission, that Sikirica, according to this witness, was present during

17 the loading of the bodies. The question that Your Honour asked was:

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I believe you gave evidence that after the

19 second massacre, which was the day after the first, you

20 saw him when the bodies were being removed.

21 Now, our concerns are these, and I speak, I hope, for all Defence

22 counsel, that if a witness is to have evidence put to him, it should be

23 evidence, not that which comes from a summary which is inconsistent with

24 the evidence actually given.

25 Second concern we have is the use to which these summaries are to

Page 1748

1 be put. The summaries, in our submission, are no more than a road-map

2 which sets out where the Prosecutor plans to go with the witness. Once

3 the evidence is completed, the summary becomes a document of precious

4 little value, for it is not evidence, it's not an exhibit, and the

5 evidence only comes from the witness box or through documents which are

6 admitted and authenticated.

7 We respectfully express that concern because if the questions that

8 Your Honours are going to ask are going to come from the summaries which

9 are inconsistent with evidence actually given, it is, we submit, unfair if

10 the questions being put to witnesses are prefaced by that which is not

11 evidence. And on this particular point, it's an important difference

12 because the evidence is quite clear. We submit there is no evidence that

13 Sikirica was present.

14 So we would just like to express our very deep concerns that it's

15 not the summary which is to be used as evidence, it is the evidence which

16 is to be used as evidence in those circumstances.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Two -- yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. I must say that I take the view

19 that the summaries that are provided are exactly for the purpose that the

20 Court asked, and that is to give an indication as to what use -- or where

21 the Prosecution is going with the witness.

22 But in fairness, I must say that this Court is very much entitled

23 to ask questions on its own in order to clarify issues, and with the

24 greatest of respect, I see no difficulty whatever with the Court asking

25 the question that it did at page 1597, asking the witness to clarify

Page 1749

1 whether he saw him at any time at Keraterm. And as a matter of fact, the

2 witness did come up with an answer, that he said he remembered the issue

3 quite well, and then gave his explanation.

4 With respect, I don't see a problem. Maybe I'm missing something,

5 but we are preparing these summaries on the basis of anticipated evidence

6 based on the statements that we have taken and proofing sessions, and at

7 the Court's request, we've provided those. And my understanding is that

8 the Court is quite entitled to ask questions on its own of the witnesses,

9 to clarify issues.

10 This is not exactly the complete adversarial system that perhaps

11 might be exactly the same in everyone's national jurisdictions. It's a

12 system that is unique to this Tribunal and it's a search for the truth,

13 and the Court does have the right to play an active role in clarifying

14 issues that are of concern to it.

15 Those are my views.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I don't think we need to hear any

17 more.

18 MR. GREAVES: I just want to say this, Your Honour. I'm not

19 disputing that Your Honours have the right to ask questions, nor am I

20 disputing that the question you actually asked was a perfectly proper

21 one. What I am disputing is that you put to the witness, before doing so,

22 something which was not the evidence and which was extracted from the

23 summary. The two things are different. It risks, in the future, a

24 witness -- something unfair happening with the witness if you ask a

25 question which is based on the summary but which is not in accord with the

Page 1750

1 evidence. That's the problem I face. I don't have a problem with Your

2 Honours -- indeed, I encourage Your Honours to ask questions. I'm quite

3 happy with that, and that is entirely proper. It was the use of the

4 summary incorrectly in accordance with the evidence that was the matter of

5 concern.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't agree that the summary was used at all,

7 and the sole issue is whether there was evidence, and I'll use the break

8 this evening to examine the matter and make a comment on it tomorrow

9 morning.

10 I don't think the Chamber needs to be lectured about the use of

11 the summary. It's a truism that the summary is not evidence, and the sole

12 issue is whether there was evidence.

13 We will look at the issue this evening, and tomorrow we'll make a

14 comment on it.

15 We stand adjourned until 9.30 --

16 MR. VUCICEVIC: If I could be recognised Your Honour. Your

17 Honour, if I could be recognised for a second.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, because Mr. Greaves purported to speak on

19 your behalf.

20 MR. VUCICEVIC: On a different issue.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have another matter?

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: Another matter.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. What is it?

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I noticed there is a practice here

25 that when the objection is being raised and the Court is questioning and

Page 1751

1 asking the counsel what is the substance of the objection, the translation

2 goes on and the witness is being basically cued in what the proper answer

3 is, or perhaps when the Court asked where the examination is leading to.

4 In a jurisdiction where I am practising and Your Honours, most of you are

5 practising -- actually, two of you are practising, that calls for a

6 side-bar conference because we do indeed have a jury. And I understand,

7 since we do not have a jury but we still do have a witness, and I would

8 respectfully ask when such matters are being raised, because as you see

9 that this is indeed a delicate trial, if we possibly enhance the fairness

10 and perhaps, you know, just exclude the witness, please.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

12 We stand adjourned until 9.30.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.04 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

15 April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.