Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1991

1 Friday, 6 April 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.



8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, thank

10 you.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Rodic [continued]:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tomic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Yesterday, I asked you about Taranjac and Milan Curguz. Can you

15 tell me if you know if they were members of the SDA?

16 A. I suppose so.

17 Q. The transcript says "SDA" and I asked you about the SDS -- and I

18 asked about the SDS. Could you please repeat your answer?

19 A. Very likely.

20 Q. Do you know if Milan Curguz brought food, messages, clothing to

21 prisoners from their relatives?

22 A. Yes, every day.

23 Q. Did Curguz comment perhaps -- this assistance to prisoners, did he

24 discuss it with prisoners?

25 A. He told me once when he brought me food, he told me it will cost

Page 1992

1 him his life, helping the prisoners, the inmates.

2 Q. Why did he say that? It was not popular at that time?

3 A. It was highly unpopular to help the inmates.

4 Q. So according to this answer, it could also be dangerous?

5 A. Yes, for him.

6 Q. Did Milan Curguz have a brother?

7 A. I think he had three brothers, four.

8 Q. Is one of them called Pero?

9 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the witness' answer.

10 Q. Did Pero work for the Red Cross during the war?

11 A. Pero Curguz worked for the Red Cross in Omarska -- that is, in

12 Trnopolje.

13 Q. And how did Pero Curguz treat the prisoners?

14 A. As far as we from Ljubija were concerned, he was very correct. He

15 brought food, he provided us with accommodation, so he was quite all

16 right.

17 Q. Did he tell you whom he suspected having -- killing his brother?

18 A. The first day we arrived in Trnopolje, he told us that his brother

19 was -- his brother called Krivi was killed from the back, and that he

20 never fled from anyone, that he was never afraid of anyone, and that he

21 was positive that it was Serbs who had killed him, members of the unit

22 with which he was on a mission.

23 Q. When we say Krivi, for the Court, is that Milan Curguz?

24 A. Yes, better known as Krivi.

25 Q. Did Pero perhaps comment on the reason for Milan's murder?

Page 1993

1 A. No, he did not mention that. If I may add, sometime, half an hour

2 after that conversation with the man from Ljubija, from Banja Luka

3 television team arrived, and then he said for television that balijas had

4 killed his brother, not only killed him but also cut his head off. So

5 that was a different story from the one that he told us.

6 Q. And that is the television of the Serb authorities?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the reason that he mentioned to you why Milan had been killed,

9 does it have to do with what you just told us?

10 A. No, he did not tell us this, but that was the reason, as likely as

11 not.

12 Q. Because he helped the prisoners?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the examination, you mentioned that you several times moved

15 on your own from Room 2 to Room 4 and then went back to Room 2.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could one do that without the guards' authorisation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So the existence of lists with names of prisoners per room did not

20 affect that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You also mentioned three shift commanders, Kajin, Tomo, and Kole.

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Do you know a man called Fustar?

25 A. I've heard about Fustar. If I may add, I believe that Tomo was a

Page 1994

1 shift commander only until the murder of Tokmadzic, when that major

2 beating took place, when Tokmadzic was killed and when Islamovic and

3 Fejzulahu who were beaten up. After that, I do not think he was the shift

4 commander after that. But whether Fustar did that, I really cannot say.

5 Q. So according to you, did Fustar, after that -- was he, after that,

6 a shift commander?

7 A. That is what I heard. I cannot say what Fustar was; that is, I

8 heard things, but I do not know what was his position.

9 Q. Did Tomo fit the description of a man about 25, tall, about 170,

10 thin, dark hair, dark complexion, police trousers?

11 A. Yes, he does fit.

12 Q. Is it true that Kajin treated prisoners correctly, that one could

13 communicate with him?

14 A. It is true.

15 Q. Is it true that in Keraterm, Kajin never ill-treated anyone?

16 A. I never saw that during my stay there.

17 Q. Is it true that -- I'm sorry. Just a moment. Is it true that

18 Kajin locked you at night?

19 A. It is. Like all the others. Like all the other guards [as

20 interpreted] who were on those shifts.

21 Q. For the record, it says "guards," and you said, "like all the

22 other shift commanders."

23 So that is true?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Is it true that Kajin had the keys in the beginning, at the end of

Page 1995

1 the shift, and that somebody else maybe had the keys so that they could

2 bring in or take out men during the shift?

3 A. Only the shift commanders had the keys. They were the ones who

4 locked and unlocked.

5 Q. And -- but they could be physically present everywhere; that is,

6 could somebody else lock and unlock the door?

7 A. The dormitories were not locked in daytime, only at night.

8 Q. I'm asking you this because in an earlier statement to the

9 Prosecution, to people from the OTP, you said about those keys: "Somebody

10 else maybe had them to bring people in or take them out during shifts, but

11 Kajin had the keys at the beginning and at the end of his shift."

12 A. Let me repeat it. Kajin, like other shift commanders, locked us

13 in the evening and unlocked us in the morning.

14 Q. So you assumed that somebody else could also have the keys?

15 A. Well, he could have got the keys from him.

16 Q. Did you ever come near the hut which is usually called the weigh

17 hut, that is, where the scales are, where the reception hut is?

18 A. Only twice; when I came and when I left.

19 Q. And on that occasion, through the window of that hut you didn't

20 see where the keys were kept?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you aware that Kajin had a brother?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Then I suppose you are not aware either that his brother worked in

25 Keraterm.

Page 1996

1 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

2 Q. Is it true that Kajin never called out anyone at night?

3 A. I do not recall that, whether he called somebody out or not.

4 Q. You mentioned here Duca, Zigic, Banovic. You recognised their

5 voices when they called people out. Did you recognise Kajin's voice on

6 any one occasion?

7 A. I cannot really recall, not right now.

8 Q. You don't have to if you can't. When you spoke about that

9 situation when Duca beat prisoners from Room 3, and that after a while

10 that beating stopped, and when Duca left, how long after that were you

11 allowed to leave the room?

12 A. Well, nobody prevented us from coming out. We simply wanted

13 things to calm down first. When we were sure that Duca had left, about

14 five minutes or ten minutes at most, then we came out.

15 Q. You also described a situation when Kajin talked with people whom

16 Duca had beaten; is that true?

17 A. With all those people, he talked.

18 Q. Are you aware that Kajin organised medical aid to the injured when

19 he had an opportunity to do so?

20 A. I do not think that any medical aid, not medical --

21 Q. Yes, yes, medical aid.

22 A. That it was ever -- assistance was organised and that people were

23 taken to the hospital. And that was -- there was only this one occasion,

24 and that was I think two days before me, I do not know exactly when. I do

25 not know who organised it either.

Page 1997












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1998

1 Q. Does that mean that it could have been around the 1st of July?

2 A. I -- when they were beaten up, yes, it was a couple of days

3 before, so end of June, I should say.

4 Q. You spoke about a prisoner whom you found in Room 2 and he was

5 called Singaporac or sniper. Are you aware that his name was Emsud

6 Bahonjic?

7 A. I cannot remember his name now.

8 Q. You said that you had come to Keraterm on the 14th in the early

9 hours of the morning; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Are you aware that Emsud Bahonjic, that is this man whom you know

12 as Singaporac or sniper, on the 15th of June, that is the next day, was

13 sent to the hospital?

14 A. I do not remember him being sent to the hospital.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let me just check something. Is it accepted that

16 Singaporac is Emsud Bahonjic, as is being suggested?

17 MS. BALY: It is, Your Honour.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Are you aware that on the 15th, Kajin organised help for various

20 prisoners, for a number of prisoners who had sustained injuries and helped

21 to take them to the hospital?

22 A. I do not remember that.

23 Q. Regarding the situation around the 1st of July, that is a few days

24 before you left, did you know that Eso Islamovic was one of those who went

25 to the hospital? Will you please repeat your answer because it was not

Page 1999

1 registered.

2 A. Yes, it is true.

3 Q. Do you know somebody called Edin Islamovic?

4 A. Yes. Edin Islamovic does ring a bell.

5 Q. Was he perhaps with you in Room 4 for a while?

6 A. He could have been in Room 2 as well. He was either in Room 2 or

7 4. I can't remember exactly.

8 Q. You spoke about the situation when Drago Tokmadzic, Eso Islamovic,

9 and some Albanians whose names you gave us were beaten. Was it during

10 Tomo's shift?

11 A. I'm sure it was on Tomo's shift.

12 Q. As for a person named Jovo Radocaj, can you tell us what room he

13 was called out from and when this was approximately, if you remember, and

14 in which room?

15 A. Jovo Radocaj was in Room number 2.

16 Q. So your situation -- or rather, the situation was that when Jovo

17 was beaten, he was called out from Room number 2? Can you remember

18 approximately a period when this occurred? Or can you relate it to a

19 particular event, like your departure or --

20 A. I can't.

21 Q. Did you see Jovo brought with the people from Ljubija, with -- to

22 Keraterm?

23 A. I don't remember that either.

24 Q. So you did not see him coming to Keraterm. Do you perhaps know,

25 or have you found out perhaps at a later stage, why people from Ljubija

Page 2000

1 were not interrogated in Keraterm?

2 A. No one ever told us that.

3 Q. What about all the people from Ljubija who were in Keraterm? You

4 mentioned the figure of 115. Were they all transferred to Omarska? Were

5 you all transferred to Omarska together?

6 A. We were all transferred to Omarska together, all of us who were in

7 Keraterm at that time. We were registered and taken to Omarska.

8 Q. Were the people from Ljubija beaten before they left?

9 A. No one was beaten.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

11 speak into the microphone?

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you have the witness' second microphone

13 turned on, please?

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you know a man named Fehim Krupic from Room number 2?

16 A. Yes. Fehim was the person who was in charge of Room number 2, so

17 to speak.

18 Q. Do you know Enes Burzic?

19 A. Just Burzic. There were two Burzics, so I know the last name.

20 There were two Burzics.

21 Q. Was one of them also room leader?

22 A. Burza, nicknamed Glava, was room leader in Room number 4.

23 Q. Do you know a man named Nezvit Brkic?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When you were brought to Omarska, you were there from the 4th of

Page 2001

1 July to the 6th of August, if I'm not mistaken.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Let me ask you before that, do you know a man named Brta?

4 A. It would be more accurate to say that I've heard of Brta. I don't

5 know whether it's a name or a nickname. I've heard of it, but I do not

6 know him personally.

7 Q. What did you hear about him? Does it also have something to do

8 with room leaders?

9 A. I can't remember. It rings a bell, but I don't know what it

10 actually has to do with.

11 Q. Let's go back to Omarska, the period you spent in Omarska. Among

12 the security people in Omarska, were there some active policemen there?

13 Are there -- were there persons who worked on the police force before?

14 A. I only know Radic, who worked in Ljubija for many years. I think

15 that -- yes. Yes. He also worked in Omarska as a policeman.

16 Q. So you do not know about others then?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yesterday in response to the Prosecutor's questions, you said

19 something that I remembered. "We were treated brutally in Omarska."

20 A. Exactly.

21 Q. Was there any difference in terms of Omarska and Keraterm, that

22 one was harder than the other?

23 A. Yes, there was a difference. There was a difference. In Omarska,

24 every day there was mistreatment and people were beaten unconscious, and

25 every day, at least 10 or 15 inmates were killed, if not even more. Well,

Page 2002

1 during my stay in Keraterm, that is to say, over three weeks,

2 approximately, only ten people were killed.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, who carried out these beatings at

4 Omarska, the beatings that happened every day?

5 A. The guards. The guards, the visitors. At any rate, they were all

6 in uniform, the military, the police.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said that Kajin wore a blue uniform while he was in Keraterm.

10 A. I think it was blue. A blue policeman's uniform.

11 Q. Was it the regular uniform, so to speak, or was it a camouflage

12 police uniform?

13 A. I remember him in a light blue shirt, a light blue policeman's

14 shirt, that is to say, regular policeman.

15 Q. You've already told us that you did your military service in

16 Belgrade, that you were on the reserve force of the Territorial Defence

17 after you did your military service.

18 A. No, not the Territorial Defence.

19 Q. Infantry?

20 A. Yes, the infantry.

21 Q. But at any rate, you were on the active force and on the reserve

22 force. You have experience in both cases?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you compare this for me? What are your impressions in terms

25 of order, discipline, responsibility, while you were in the military and

Page 2003

1 then also the relationship between superiors and their subordinates, all

2 of that as compared to Keraterm and Omarska?

3 A. Could you rephrase your question? I can't really understand it.

4 Q. While you were in the military, I assume that this was an orderly

5 organisation in terms of order, discipline, responsibility, respect for

6 superiors, carrying out orders, that people were held accountable for the

7 infractions they would commit; is that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And now I'm asking you, can you compare the organisation and

10 functioning of the security in Keraterm and Omarska in respect of these

11 elements that we have mentioned to the situation you saw while you did

12 your military service?

13 A. No, not quite. It wasn't that strict in terms of relations with

14 one's superiors, that is to say, ordinary guards vis-a-vis their

15 superiors. They addressed each other in two terms, so there is a

16 difference in respect of the army. So it was not as strict as in the

17 army, no.

18 Q. Did you see any situations when they would quarrel between

19 themselves, that is to say, guards with commanders?

20 A. Guards would quarrel amongst themselves, yes, but with their

21 superiors, I don't remember having seen any such thing.

22 Q. The same goes for Omarska, I mean this comparison?

23 A. I remember a case in Omarska when the guards beat us for 10 or 15

24 minutes. During the first days when we came to Omarska, they beat us at

25 the pista, and then somebody shouted -- somebody ordered us to get in --

Page 2004












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Page 2005

1 to go inside because Kvocka was coming from the direction of Separacija

2 towards kop. There was a car coming, and they had assumed it was Kvocka.

3 They stopped beating us immediately and they put us inside. That is to

4 say that they were afraid.

5 Also, another incident that had to do with Kvocka. He did not

6 allow beatings, beatings for no reason, while he was present there.

7 Q. Tell me, please, the functioning of the security of the guards in

8 Keraterm, again, comparing this to your experience. Did the guards have

9 fixed guard posts, a certain territory that they were responsible for, or

10 did they freely move about Keraterm?

11 A. As far as I can remember, there were those two points with the

12 so-called machine-gun nests on both sides. In between there was also the

13 kiosk and the weighing hut. So there were these machine-gun nests too.

14 And otherwise, they freely strolled throughout the compound.

15 Q. Could you give me an approximate number as to how many guards were

16 in individual shifts?

17 A. I cannot say that at all.

18 Q. Can you say, for example, that there were more than five or six?

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the witness'

20 answer. Could the witness please speak into the microphone?

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, the interpreters didn't hear your

22 answer. Would you please move a little closer, or at any rate try to

23 speak into the microphone? Would you give the answer to the last

24 question? Would you just repeat the question?

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2006

1 Q. The number of guards on individual shifts, was it more than five

2 or six guards?

3 A. Yes. It was certainly more than five or six guards.

4 Q. As we are closing, I would like to go back to where we started

5 from. In your opinion, the emergence of national parties in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, did it disrupt relationships between and among people

7 that had been harmonious until then?

8 A. In my case, no. I have remained friends with my friends.

9 Q. I'm not talking about you individually, personally. I'm talking

10 about Bosnia-Herzegovina in general.

11 A. I think so, yes.

12 Q. You said that once Banovic slapped you in Keraterm?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That was because of your glasses?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you wear photo-grey lenses?

17 A. Precisely.

18 Q. What about your dioptrics?

19 A. Minus 3. I find glasses absolutely necessary.

20 Q. So you are short-sighted?

21 A. Short-sighted.

22 Q. During your stay in Keraterm, did anybody ever take your glasses

23 away from you, or did anybody do anything with your glasses?

24 A. No. I find glasses indispensable. I wear them all the time.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tomic.

Page 2007

1 Your Honours, I have concluded my questioning. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you Mr. Rodic. Mr. Vucicevic?

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

5 Q. My name is Dusan Vucicevic, Mr. Tomic, and I appear for Dragan

6 Kolundzija. You first made a statement by telephone to Mr. Malik, an

7 investigator of the OTP, and then you made a statement directly, and you

8 mentioned that, with the exception of a few corrections, you accept

9 everything you said in your first statement. In this first statement --

10 let me just mention this for the transcript. It was given on the 6th and

11 7th of March, 1999, and the statement that you gave directly to Mr. Grange

12 Morrow on the 14th of September, the year 2000, you did not mention Kole a

13 single time; is that correct?

14 A. I think I did mention him.

15 Q. Let me tell you, we have looked through these statements and there

16 is no doubt about it. Then you did not mention Kole in any one of your

17 statements. And there is no mention of him in writing. However, you

18 first mentioned him yesterday in court. I shall ask you quite openly,

19 because I trust you. It is unusual for attorneys to do this but I am

20 going to ask you, when is it that you first remembered that Kole was one

21 of the shift commanders in Keraterm?

22 A. I can't remember right now.

23 Q. Did you remember when you saw him here in the courtroom for the

24 first time?

25 A. I didn't even recognise him.

Page 2008

1 Q. Thank you. When Mr. Rodic questioned you today, you said that

2 Tomo Prodan was leader of one of the shifts, and that he was discharged --

3 or rather, that he stopped being shift leader after Drago Tokmadzic was

4 killed. That's what you said.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If you can remember, please tell us how many days later was Tomo

7 discharged?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. A day or two or three?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. So in terms of your testimony today, you had just heard that Kole

12 was leader of one of the shifts, so since you did not recognise him here,

13 you did not recognise him in Keraterm either?

14 A. I didn't know him.

15 Q. Did you know that during the month of June, he was one of the

16 ordinary guards on one of the shifts?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. At that time, you didn't notice him there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Let's go back to some general matters. You said that the national

21 parties practically made life worse in Yugoslavia and in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. However, you voted for the party of Ante Markovic. I'm just

25 asking you for the transcript. Do you remember the official name of the

Page 2009

1 party?

2 A. The Reformist Party.

3 Q. Were there any proposals concerning political reforms, apart from

4 the economic reforms you referred to yesterday?

5 A. I don't remember. The only thing that was important, meaningful

6 for me, was this economic programme. We had already felt part of

7 Markovic's reforms, changes, and it would have been a good thing had his

8 reforms continued. That was the reason why I voted that way, and that's

9 the only party I liked and wanted to vote for.

10 Q. You managed to feel his changes because he was Prime Minister

11 before the elections; is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Do you remember how long he was Prime Minister?

14 A. I don't remember.

15 Q. However, let us now focus on Prijedor. Which party won the

16 largest number of votes in Prijedor, in the election there?

17 A. According to the ethnic pattern that prevailed there, that's how

18 the vote went, the SDA, the SDS, the HDZ.

19 Q. And in terms of the division of power or, rather, seats and

20 positions in the municipality, it so happened that the leading people of

21 the SDA and the SDS took all power in their hands. Were there any

22 positions that were won by the Croats?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Let me ask you about another fact. Do you know which candidate

25 for the president of Bosnia-Herzegovina won the largest number of votes in

Page 2010

1 these elections in 1990?

2 A. Could you please repeat your question again?

3 Q. Do you remember which candidate for president of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the elections of 1990, won the largest number of

5 votes?

6 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was Fikret Abdic.

7 Q. Let us assume that Mr. Fikret Abdic won the largest number of

8 votes. Do you know whether some of the Serbs or Croats voted for him?

9 A. It was by secret ballot, the voting.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the answer has been given.

11 Mr. Vucicevic, next question.

12 MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes. Thank you. I do know about the practices.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Did Mr. Abdic have some supporters among the

14 Serbs and Croats?

15 A. Possibly.

16 Q. So his policies, in terms of resolving inter-ethnic and economic

17 problems in Bosnia, was a conciliatory one, similar to the policy of Ante

18 Markovic at nation-wide, all-Yugoslav level?

19 A. These elections were held at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Yes, yes. We are focusing on that.

21 A. Abdic's programme was similar. At any rate, it was based on

22 economic programme.

23 Q. Was there any discussion concerning inter-ethnic relations in

24 Abdic's programme?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 2011












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Page 2012

1 Q. Were you surprised by the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic was then

2 appointed president?

3 A. I was not very involved in politics, so it didn't really matter to

4 me. There's one thing I remember well; none of my seven representatives

5 were elected.

6 Q. [In English] I could understand then that -- your disappointment

7 about the political process at the time.

8 You have testified -- [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

9 You testified -- during the examination-in-chief by the

10 Prosecutor, you said that on the 30th of April, power was taken in the

11 municipality of Prijedor. However, since I follow the transcript, I was

12 not sure whether this pertained to the municipality building and buildings

13 in the town of Prijedor or the entire territory of the municipality of

14 Prijedor.

15 A. It referred to the municipality as a territory.

16 Q. Nevertheless, you testified that on the 30th or the 31st, you were

17 in a coffee bar and that the police came and said, "It's over. Curfew.

18 Everybody home," is that true?

19 A. True. 30th of April. No, there is no 31st of April.

20 Q. I mean 30th of April or 1st of May.

21 A. 30th of April, the May Day.

22 Q. And if I put to you that the power was taken over in Prijedor in

23 the morning of the 30th of April, it would mean then that the power in

24 Ljubija, in Gornja Ljubija, was taken over, if it was taken over, was done

25 before Prijedor. Does that sound logical to you or maybe not?

Page 2013

1 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

2 Q. If I tell you that the SDS took over the power in the municipality

3 of Prijedor, in the building of the police in the early hours of the

4 morning between the 30th and the 1st of May, would that be true?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Or did it maybe happen between the 29th and 30th?

7 A. Yes. You're getting warmer. Yes. I -- well, I think it's more

8 correct, because on the 30th, in the evening, we were getting ready for

9 the May Day because -- and in the evening, some friends were with me and

10 we were getting ready for that, but in the evening, the policemen came,

11 forbid us to work, the music had to be switched off, and we had to leave,

12 and that was in the evening hours on April the 30th, when it was said that

13 the SDS has taken over the power. That was the first time that I had

14 heard about the takeover.

15 Q. Did you notice the change of flag or any symbols on public

16 buildings in Ljubija that day?

17 A. I paid no attention. I don't remember if there were any changes.

18 Q. However, you testified yesterday that no change had taken place in

19 the personnel structure in the police station, isn't it?

20 A. As far as I know, no change took place.

21 Q. The statement that you made in March, 1999, says, where you refer

22 to members of the Crisis Staff in Ljubija, the Crisis Staff was made of

23 Stipo Tomic, in brackets, Croat; Miroslav Atlija, Croat; Slobodan's

24 brother, Djordje Taranjac; Zdravko's brother, Ljuban Todorovic, in

25 brackets, Serb; Cija, is it Jelisavac? Serb, in brackets; Djordje

Page 2014

1 Knezevic, Serb in brackets. Is that the Crisis Staff which Anton

2 operating after the power was taken over in Prijedor?

3 A. Yes. That is the Crisis Staff that was set up after the takeover

4 of power.

5 Q. How many days before the takeover was the Crisis Staff set up, if

6 you know?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. So in Ljubija, both Serbs and some Croats were together on that

9 Crisis Staff?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'm sorry, I can't find your statement in Serbo-Croatian so I will

12 read it in English. In the same paragraph you say: [Previous translation

13 continues]... organised the transport to send the refugees back to

14 Hambarine, although it was not safe for them to return. [Interpretation]

15 First line of this passage you said that Stipo Tomic, a Croat, and that

16 means that both Serbs and some Croats actively participated in the work of

17 the Crisis Staff, like Mr. Tomic, for instance?

18 A. Yes. Those are mostly Croats from mixed marriages. That is

19 Croats married to Serbs, Atlija and Stipo Tomic.

20 Q. And that brings me to my next question. Mr. Drago Tokmadzic came

21 from -- was a child of a mixed marriage, wasn't he?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. You said that Mr. Zelimir Komosar, who was a deputy police

24 commander in Ljubija?

25 A. I did not mention it. Impossible. Will you please read it

Page 2015

1 again?

2 Q. That Zelimir Komosar was a child of a mixed marriage, Zelimir

3 Komosar whom you saw in Omarska, both in Keraterm and Omarska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Zelimir Komosar. And you testified about what he did in

6 April, May, and June, 1992?

7 A. What he did then? I don't know what he did.

8 Q. Was he an active policeman, a reserve policeman?

9 A. He was no policeman.

10 Q. Excuse me, I'm asking you because we heard from one of earlier

11 witnesses about Komosar who was in the police station, so I'm trying to

12 investigate this.

13 A. I don't remember. I don't remember him being with the police.

14 Q. Did Komosar -- is Komosar a very common surname in Ljubija?

15 A. Well, there were a few families.

16 Q. When you testified for the Prosecutor, you said that in the

17 spring, perhaps that is not the word that you used, but roughly at about

18 that time, that in -- that that spring, there was intensive armament in

19 the Prijedor area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And also the troop reinforcements arrived and arms were

22 distributed to people; that is what you said?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know who was it that distributed weapons to Serbs? Because

25 that is what you said.

Page 2016

1 A. Well, presumably, the weapons came from army reserve, from army

2 stocks, that is military weapons, weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army.

3 In Ljubija, they were distributed amongst the Serbs.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: [In English] Mr. Usher, please pass this around and

5 give a copy to the witness.

6 Your Honours, this exhibit has been preadmitted, has been produced

7 by the Prosecutor, and those are the minutes of the SDS meeting held on

8 April 23rd, 1992, which started at 1820 in the hall, SDS hall, in

9 Prijedor, and there is handwriting by a minute taker. I apologise because

10 we don't have a French version but as long as -- as soon as we get the

11 translators to help us out with this, we will kindly forward you a copy.

12 Q. Mr. Tomic, will you please look at the heading of this document

13 which is in Serbo-Croatian, and then will you please cast a look at

14 various items, notably items 1 and 6? Have you had a look?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. This document shows that the SDS in Prijedor did not have -- did

17 not either -- did not either trust the army nor did it have any guarantees

18 of the army that it would side with the SDS; isn't that true?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Will you please look at item 6? Make it -- do you know who

21 Zeljaja was?

22 A. I think that Zeljaja was the commander of the Prijedor battalion.

23 Q. Put the point across that: [As read] "If Zeljaja does not declare

24 that the JNA is indeed going to protect the Serb people, the SDS will call

25 -- will invite all Serb soldiers to leave the JNA together with their

Page 2017

1 weapons."

2 That means -- [In English] I'd like to stand corrected for the

3 record.

4 [Interpretation] That if -- unless Zeljaja declares ... [In

5 English] ... that Serbs are being to be protected without excluding

6 anybody else, in this sentence, the SDA Serbs would call to leave JNA.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are you precisely asking the witness?

8 MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm asking him does he, based on this document,

9 have any recollection whether or not SDS was arming people?

10 A. Whether these people who were arming others, who were making lists

11 of who needs what, whether they were members of the SDS or not, I do not

12 know. I know that Serbs were the ones who armed them, and Serbs were

13 issued with weapons.

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. But you do not know if those Serbs were part of the army or the

16 SDS at the time?

17 A. I don't.

18 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... this document

19 be accepted as a Defence exhibit, according to the numbers assigned by the

20 Registry.

21 MS. BALY: No objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Number, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D2/3.

24 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You testified that you had received four call-up summonses and

Page 2018












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2019

1 that you never once reported. However, when you returned from your

2 workplace in Omarska on the 24th of May, 1992, you put on a uniform and

3 left?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who invited you to put on a uniform and report?

6 A. I did it on my own initiative, that is, a few of us who happened

7 to be there on the spot, we simply dressed up and headed for Donja

8 Ljubija. There were Serbs amongst us and Croats and Muslims.

9 Q. Who did you want to help? Who were you volunteering for?

10 A. We had been told that the army was attacking Brdo and Donja

11 Ljubija.

12 Q. So from Gornja Ljubija you headed for Donja Ljubija?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where did you report and who was your unit commander?

15 A. We simply did not make it. After several hundred metres, the TO

16 members intercepted us, turned us off to the school building - the alarm,

17 the sirens had already gone off - and we stayed there until about half

18 past 11.00 or 12.00 at night and then we went back home.

19 Q. But when you put on your uniform and headed where you had headed,

20 was it still daytime or was it night?

21 A. That was night. It was half past 8.00 or 9.00. I can't

22 remember.

23 Q. Were there any other passers by on the street as you went?

24 A. Well, the sirens had started so that we did not meet anyone on our

25 way to the school where we -- where our voyage ended.

Page 2020

1 Q. But there were also some Serbs with you?

2 A. Yes. It was a mixed group.

3 Q. When you testified about Milan Curguz, Krivi, you said that he was

4 also afraid he might be liquidated because he was helping prisoners.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But in your statement, you said -- your statement to the

7 Prosecutor, you said that you saw Milan bring in prisoners too to

8 Keraterm; is that correct?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. That means that although he brought prisoners -- and how often do

11 you remember that?

12 A. Quite often. Whether it was every day, I'm not sure. No, it

13 wasn't. Perhaps day -- day out, because everybody else brought them in.

14 But as a rule, he was the one who brought them in.

15 Q. And although he brought in prisoners, he was, nevertheless,

16 fearful for his life?

17 A. That is what he hinted at.

18 Q. And as you believe today on the basis of what his brother said,

19 you think that he has been liquidated?

20 A. What do you think?

21 Q. On the basis of your overall experience in Prijedor, what would

22 have happened to Milan Curguz had he refused at the time to bring over

23 prisoners and instead just help them? Would he ended up in the same way

24 as Jovan Radocaj?

25 A. Possibly.

Page 2021

1 Q. Is it -- and is it very highly likely?

2 A. I cannot say that. All I can say is "possibly."

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tomic.

4 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have concluded my

5 cross-examination.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Vucicevic.

7 Ms. Baly.

8 MS. BALY: I have no re-examination for this witness, Your

9 Honours.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Tomic, that concludes your testimony and you

11 may go.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld?

14 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour. I must indicate to you

15 that, first of all, the Prosecution extends our apologies that we have no

16 further witnesses available to be called today. As you are aware, there

17 was a development in the scheduling yesterday which we did not anticipate,

18 and because of the break for the weekend, we had anticipated that that

19 witness yesterday and today's witness would take up the balance of the

20 time that was available to us since we're only supposed to be sitting

21 until 1.00 today.

22 I might also say to you that we have tried our utmost to get

23 additional witnesses here today. However, because of the length of travel

24 that witnesses have to -- that many are from far distances and there is

25 also a rail strike, we were unable to do that. So our apologies to the

Page 2022

1 Court that we are unable to call any further witnesses today.

2 If I may also address our intentions for next week.


4 MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding is that we do have a three-day

5 week next week, and we have scheduled three witnesses for next week based

6 on the experience of the timing thus far, also the Court's guidelines that

7 you hope a minimum of a witness a day. Also, the fact that there is --

8 after next week there is a scheduled break, and it would be irresponsible

9 for us to have witnesses stay over for a lengthy period of time.

10 So our proposal is that we call three witnesses next week, unless

11 the Court has any different instructions for us. We need to know that

12 now.

13 The other thing about it that I thought I would say is that we

14 still are -- want to reiterate our time concerns. We are aware that after

15 now three weeks, we have completed ten witnesses. We have 25 viva voce

16 witnesses left to call, and when I say that, we have cut it to the bone.

17 We have eliminated yet another three witnesses, and I've just advised my

18 friends this morning that we have looked very carefully at our witness

19 list and have eliminated those who are corroborative only in nature, have

20 nothing new to add. So we are doing our utmost to try to get this case in

21 by the 1st of June.

22 We're going to have a considerable difficulty if we continue to go

23 at the rate we are. I know that Your Honour has expressed the impression

24 that we are, in fact, moving a little quicker. However, just looking at

25 the last three witnesses, Witness G, we were 1 hour and 19 minutes for the

Page 2023

1 Prosecution. The Defence collectively took one minute shy of 2 hours.

2 For Witness H, the Prosecution was 1 hour and 18 minutes. Collectively,

3 the Defence were 3 hours and 18 minutes. For mister -- for the last

4 witness, we were 1 hour and 20 minutes, and the Defence - I'm just handed

5 the update - is 1 hour and 57 minutes.

6 Now, my concern is that we're not going to finish this case by the

7 1st of June if we continue on this pace. We're going to do everything we

8 can to try to accomplish that, but we have no control over the length of

9 cross-examination. We do have an obligation to get our case in. We're

10 cutting it to the bone. We can't do any more. I'm just letting you know

11 that if we continue at this pace, we're not going to meet our objective,

12 and that's my concern that I have to bring to the Court's attention.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

14 First, I should say that the Chamber understands that owing to the

15 unexpected development, the Prosecutor is not in a position to produce

16 additional witnesses for this week.

17 With regard to the rest of the case, the Chamber remains concerned

18 that we might not be able to finish the Prosecutor's case by the 1st of

19 June. We will continue to work, as a general rule, with the help of the

20 interpreters, until 5.00, and I should say that on some days, there will

21 also be the possibility that we can start at 9.00 in the morning. So that

22 would give us a little more time.

23 I would again urge the Defence counsel to cooperate as much as

24 they can. I know that they have their clients' interests at heart and

25 they have a duty to present their case, but to the extent that they can

Page 2024

1 coordinate, avoid unnecessary questioning, that will -- that will help.

2 But we are still working towards the 1st of June. And I do not rule out

3 the possibility that if when we assess the matter after the Easter break,

4 the Chamber will be obliged to take some additional measures to ensure

5 that we do finish the 1st of June.

6 I should say, looking down the road, that it has become very

7 necessary and important that this case be finished by the end of

8 September.

9 If it is not finished by the end of September, we run into some

10 organisational problems, so we are working towards that. And with that in

11 view, I'd like to ask the Defence counsel, now that the Prosecutor's case

12 has been on for some time, are you in a position to say how many witnesses

13 you'll be calling so that we can have an idea as to the kind of

14 arrangements that we are taking? Mr. Greaves and Mr. Londrovic first.

15 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Sikirica's

16 Defence is planning to call about 20 witnesses.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: 20? 20 witnesses, yes. And Mr. Petrovic? Thank

18 you, Mr. Londrovic.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is perhaps

20 difficult to say it now, but Mr. Dosen's Defence will not be bringing more

21 than 30 witnesses, perhaps less, but I'm really not in a position to be

22 more precise at this point.

23 With Your Honour's leave, I should also like to briefly add

24 something else. We are quite aware -- we are quite aware of the situation

25 that we are in and we are really doing our best to bring down both the

Page 2025












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13 English transcripts.













Page 2026

1 number of questions and the length of our cross-examination. I hope that

2 Your Honours have already noted that we have been trying, and I hope

3 succeeded, to a point, to bring down the number of subjects we raise in

4 cross-examination, and to act in line with your instructions, but I hope

5 you won't hold it against me, but I wish to voice the concern of

6 Mr. Dosen's defence in a different respect.

7 We are indeed trying to work as much and as long as possible, both

8 in terms of the hours -- of the working hours and days. However, we are

9 practically denied communication with our client after the sessions. As

10 you have said a while ago, we work until 5.00, sometimes until ten past

11 5.00 or 15 past 5.00, so the visiting time with our client after that is

12 until 6.00. Those people are here in the courtroom. When they leave the

13 courtroom, they have time to eat something or not, but it is really very

14 difficult to find the time we need to consult our clients after the time

15 we spend in the courtroom. So that our communication, to all intents and

16 purposes comes down to communication during the breaks during the days'

17 sessions, and that is our concern. I, of course, am not suggesting how to

18 solve it because I believe it is Your Honours who have to decide how we

19 should proceed in this case.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does the time with the clients end at 6.00? Is

21 there any flexibility?

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps you didn't

23 quite get my point, or perhaps I put it badly. It -- this is not -- no,

24 the visiting time does not end at 6.00, but on Mondays and Wednesdays we

25 can visit our clients between 6.00 and quarter to 8.00. I do not have the

Page 2027

1 schedule with me here but, yes, Mr. Vucicevic tells me it's only on

2 Mondays and Wednesdays. And if we adjourn every day after 5.00, after

3 quarter past 5.00 or so, the -- arranging the transport takes until about

4 6.00, 6.15, then they have a lunch because here they only get some dry

5 pack or something here. They don't get a proper lunch. So that the time

6 available comes down to about half an hour, if that much. So could you

7 please bear this in mind? I'm not trying to offer any solutions. I

8 believe Your Honours will come up with a solution and I'm -- but we hope

9 that the equity of arms would also be provided in this respect, because we

10 see that everything is being done to observe it.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will make inquiries about the matter that you

12 have raised, because I think we recognise that you need to consult with

13 your clients, and I think that's a right which we would not wish to see

14 diminished in any way. So we will carry out some investigations, and to

15 the extent that we can, we will try to see how this matter can be

16 resolved.

17 Yes, Mr. Vucicevic?

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continued] ... jumping in

20 earlier to kind of give some information about the new scheduling, but I

21 called earlier this morning because I haven't seen my client in the

22 detention unit ever since the trial started. But that's my own kind of

23 problem because I didn't have a co-counsel present with me at this time.

24 But there is -- besides that, there is a problem with this new

25 scheduling because it has been changed as of the 1st of April, and there

Page 2028

1 is going to be only two terms open, that's on Monday and Wednesday, and

2 visitation is from 6.00. If we work to 5.00 on those two days -- I don't

3 mind working hard as long as Your Honours, whatever you are willing to do,

4 but on those two days, I would respectfully ask you that we keep normal

5 hours so we could get a chance to relax a little bit and unwind, to have

6 dinner, and then go visit the clients, because if we have only one hour in

7 between, it is just impossible. I mean, being so tired and without having

8 a chance to eat a little bit, and go to see the clients, it is not going

9 to be productive time. I know what I've been facing over the last three

10 weeks.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will take that into consideration. Can

12 you give us an idea about the number of witnesses that you intend to

13 call?

14 MR. VUCICEVIC: One or two over 30, but I believe that, you know,

15 as the case has been progressing, I believe that we will be able to

16 curtail that number significantly. What I would like to know, what is an

17 absolute deadline, what time we all have to finish. Perhaps we in the

18 Defence could coordinate and see what witnesses are going so that we

19 wouldn't have to duplicate the witnesses on certain matters.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. As I've indicated, we are working towards

21 concluding the case by the end of September.

22 MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I see here a possible 20, 30, that's 50; 30,

24 80 -- that's 80 witnesses for the Defence. That will be a matter that we

25 will have to take into account.

Page 2029

1 We will adjourn now and resume on Monday at 9.30.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 11.08 a.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 9th day

4 of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.