Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3639

1 Thursday, 24 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

7 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves: [Continued]

11 Q. Witness S, you told us yesterday that you had got in touch with

12 the Office of the Prosecutor after having a conversation with a number of

13 former detainees who lived in the same town as you.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was it you who approached them?

16 A. I don't understand the question.

17 Q. You were contemplating getting in touch with the Office of the

18 Prosecutor before having this conversation with your fellow ex-detainees;

19 is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the purpose in talking to your fellow detainees about

22 that subject? What was your purpose?

23 A. I don't understand the question.

24 Q. Yes. In your mind, you were considering getting in touch with the

25 Office of the Prosecutor. In connection with that matter, you took the

Page 3640

1 decision to talk about that to fellow ex-detainees. What was it about

2 contacting the Prosecutor that you wished to discuss with your fellow

3 ex-detainees?

4 A. Well, about how to establish contact with the International

5 Tribunal, because I didn't know anything about it until then.

6 Q. Did you also discuss with them how that -- how giving a statement

7 to the Office of the Prosecutor might assist your position concerning your

8 residence and employment status in the country where you live?

9 A. It was not mentioned at the time, nor was that the purpose,

10 because at that time, I also had a work permit for an indefinite period.

11 Q. When you informed the police authorities of the fact that you had

12 given a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, did they seek

13 confirmation of that from the Office of the Prosecutor?

14 A. Yes. And I made a statement in -- sometime in 1998, late 1998,

15 the first statement.

16 Q. The first statement. And to whom did you make the first statement

17 in 1998?

18 A. Mr. Tariq Malik.

19 Q. And may we conclude -- let me go back a bit. When you say

20 "statement," is that something in writing or just an oral interview?

21 A. The first time was just an oral interview on that occasion.

22 Q. And was it then that you sought confirmation that you'd been in

23 contact with the Office of the Prosecutor so that the police would know

24 about it?

25 A. No, not then, but, yes, I did after some time, later on.

Page 3641

1 Q. Amongst the fellow detainees whom you know living in the country

2 where you are, is it the perception amongst those people that if you are a

3 witness, if you make a statement, then that will count towards getting

4 permanent residence, permanent employment papers?

5 A. At that time, it was -- how shall I put it? At that time, it

6 could be of help.

7 Q. So you approached the Office of the Prosecutor. Did you know by

8 that stage who the people were that were being sought in connection with

9 events at Keraterm?

10 A. No. I didn't know it at all.

11 Q. When you were interviewed by Mr. Malik, did he ask you specific

12 questions about specific individuals?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did he tell you who they were interested in, who the Office of the

15 Prosecutor were interested in?

16 A. No, he didn't.

17 Q. Of course, you -- did you realise that it was important to name

18 names in the course of what you were telling him?

19 A. Yes, I did. I did realise that it was important to give names

20 that one knew.

21 Q. What do you think was important about naming names, Witness S?

22 A. Well, naturally if you describe anyone, then you have to mention

23 names because if it were not names, if one didn't know names, then why

24 would we be here?

25 Q. Of course, if you simply gave an account of events in Keraterm,

Page 3642

1 that would be of precious little value to the Prosecutor, and you knew

2 that, didn't you?

3 A. But of course.

4 Q. And so you appreciated, did you not, that naming individuals was

5 going to be a necessary part of making your account of interest to the

6 Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?

7 A. If I -- as far as I know, if something happened, but if you do not

8 know any names, then it's not worth talking about it.

9 Q. Can you help me about this, please: I asked you yesterday why you

10 thought it important to tell the police authorities in the place where you

11 live that you had made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, and

12 you replied, "Because in order to have freedom of movement over there,

13 because our status was different." Are you suggesting that at that time

14 you were in some way placed under a form of curfew, preventing you from

15 travelling freely within the country you were living in?

16 A. Yes, until that moment.

17 Q. In what way were your movements restricted? Were you prevented

18 from travelling outside the town where you were living?

19 A. I was prevented from leaving Germany and the state I was living in

20 without the police authorisation.

21 MR. GREAVES: Can we go into private session, please.


23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3643

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]


15 Q. Witness S, what I suggest to you is this: that you sought out the

16 Office of the Prosecutor simply to improve your personal status in the

17 country where you're living; and by "status," I mean your right to reside

18 and to work in that country. Do you accept that?

19 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

20 Q. Yes. The reason why you sought out the Office of the Prosecutor

21 was, I suggest, solely motivated by a desire to improve or protect your

22 personal status in the country where you're living; and by "status," I

23 mean your right to live and to work there with your family. Do you accept

24 that?

25 A. No. No, I don't, because at that time ...

Page 3644

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You were going on to say something else, Witness

2 S. Please continue.

3 A. Yes, because my family, at the time when I contacted them, I was

4 planning to go to Bosnia. My family was already there. I had already

5 sent my family, my wife and children, to Bosnia, so that that was not

6 really my intention. [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

13 MR. PETROVIC: Your Honour, I apologise, only concerning the

14 interpretation. The witness said, "I can thank this Tribunal. Don't call

15 me --"

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you repeat that?

17 MR. PETROVIC: The witness said, "I can thank -- I could thank

18 this Tribunal a year ago," and the translation says [In English] "Go and

19 say, 'Don't call me again.'"

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. That's noted. Yes.


22 Q. Forgive me, Witness S. Are you saying today that your family was

23 already living in Bosnia at the time when you were approaching the

24 Tribunal and informing the police of that fact? Are you saying that?

25 A. Yes. They had gone there half a year before that.

Page 3645

1 Q. Why did you tell us yesterday, Witness S, when I asked you about

2 the advantage in improving your situation, and you declined to accept the

3 proposition I had put to you, "Because my family was already living

4 there"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Those two things both cannot be true, can they, Witness S? Either

7 your family were living in Bosnia or they were living in the country where

8 you are now living. They can't both be true, can they?

9 A. I don't understand.

10 Q. Well, you're telling us this morning that there wasn't an

11 advantage to you, in part because your family were in Bosnia. Yesterday

12 when I was asking you about these matters, you put forward as the reason

13 why there was no advantage to you because your family were already living

14 in the country where you reside.

15 Either your family was living in Bosnia or they were living in the

16 new country where you live. They cannot both -- those propositions cannot

17 both be true, can they?

18 A. Well, I don't know. As far as I know, I said yesterday that my

19 family was already there and that is what I say today. My family was

20 already down there at the time when I established contact with them.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, we hope that you will be bringing

22 this point to a close fairly soon, important though it is.

23 MR. GREAVES: I think so. Please bear with me just for a moment

24 or two.


Page 3646


2 Q. What I suggest, Witness S, is that you have been giving some

3 thought overnight to this particular topic, and, unfortunately, you

4 couldn't remember what you told us yesterday and you're now putting

5 forward some different explanation to try to get yourself out of the

6 implications of what I'm putting to you.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, I'm not understanding you, because I

8 think the witness is correct that what he said yesterday was that his

9 family was already living in Bosnia and that is what he's saying today.

10 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: And that's what he just reiterated.

12 MR. GREAVES: Can I remind you of what the evidence was yesterday,

13 Your Honour, if I may, please?


15 MR. GREAVES: I asked him this question:

16 Q. You perceived that there would be an advantage in

17 improving your status in the country where you were

18 living if you informed them that you were due to be

19 a witness before the Yugoslavia War Crimes

20 Tribunal. Is that what it comes to, Witness S?

21 That's the question. His reply at page 3626:

22 A. I wouldn't put it that way because my family was

23 already living there.

24 And it seems to me that the implication of that is, because I used

25 the phrase "country where you were living," is that is in the country

Page 3647

1 where he was living, and that is different from living in Bosnia, because

2 he's not living in Bosnia.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's not how I understood it, but let us move

4 on.

5 MR. GREAVES: All right. If there's a dispute about the

6 interpretation --

7 Q. Witness S, when did you arrive in The Hague, please, to give

8 evidence on this occasion?

9 A. Monday.

10 Q. And without telling us where you are staying, are you staying in a

11 hotel?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when you arrived on Monday, were there other people who were

14 due to give evidence for the Prosecutor in this case staying at that same

15 hotel?

16 A. Yes, there were some.

17 Q. And were they people that you knew from Keraterm or were they

18 strangers to you?

19 A. I knew only one of them.

20 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please.


22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3648

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]


7 Q. Was one of the people there Salko Saldumovic?

8 A. I do not know that man.

9 Q. How many people were there who'd been in Keraterm, in the hotel

10 with you?

11 A. How many. Well, there was somebody leaving and arriving every

12 day. As a rule, there are about three of us at any given time.

13 Q. And help me about this, please, Witness S: Whilst you were

14 waiting to come to this courtroom to give evidence, did you spend time

15 with those people who were also due to give evidence?

16 A. We were there in the same room, all of us.

17 Q. Did you talk about events which had happened at Keraterm?

18 A. Here, here in The Hague.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. No, we did not discuss those matters.

21 Q. Was one of the people there -- did you learn his name as Senad

22 Kenjar?

23 A. There was a guy from Kozarac, and I believe his first name was

24 Senad, but -- I mean, I heard that name in the hotel.

25 Q. Witness S, I just want to briefly ask you about something which

Page 3649

1 you gave evidence about yesterday, and it relates to events on the 5th of

2 August, 1992. You were asked by my learned friend for the Prosecution:

3 "Did you know anything about what was going to happen to those persons

4 before they were actually called out?" And you told us about a neighbour

5 of yours being told by a guard knowing that there was a list of 120

6 names.

7 It's right, isn't it, that when you made your statement to the

8 Office of the Prosecutor in writing in September of last year, you made no

9 mention whatever of hearing about lists from a neighbour, Anto Gavranovic,

10 at all, did you?

11 A. That is true.

12 Q. And similarly, Mr. Kenjar, when he made his statement to the

13 Office of the Prosecutor, also made no mention of hearing about lists

14 from --

15 MR. GREAVES: I see my learned friend Ms. Baly on her feet.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

17 MS. BALY: Your Honours, I object to this witness being asked what

18 another witness said in his statement, knew about in his statement. How

19 on earth would this witness know?

20 MR. GREAVES: If my learned friend will be patient, please, Your

21 Honours will see where I'm going.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please finish the question.


24 Q. Witness S, Mr. Kenjar did not mention in his statement to the

25 Office of the Prosecutor about hearing of lists from one of the guards or

Page 3650

1 from anybody else, but also told us about that matter. What I suggest is

2 you and he have been talking about events on the 5th of August, 1992, and

3 in particular, that you -- the pair of you have decided to put forward

4 this account in order to embellish events which took place on the 5th of

5 August, 1992. Do you accept that you have talked about that with

6 Mr. Kenjar, Senad Kenjar?

7 A. That is not true.

8 Q. So it's -- as far as you are concerned --

9 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. Was Your Honour about to --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It sounds like a comment coming.

11 MR. GREAVES: I hope not.

12 JUDGE MAY: Well, you've put the matter to the witness now and

13 he's replied.


15 Q. Apart from the Office of the Prosecutor, Witness S, have you made

16 any statements about these matters to anybody else?

17 A. How do you mean? Official institutions or ...

18 Q. Yes. Have you made any form of written statement or oral

19 statement, which has been recorded, to any other person concerning events

20 in Prijedor or Keraterm?

21 A. That was in 1992. I gave a statement to our - how shall I put

22 it? - a lady legal officer. I think she worked at the embassy, the

23 Bosnian embassy, or was there on behalf of the Bosnian government, Vasvija

24 Vidovic. It was a short statement.

25 Q. And were you at that time in the country where you were living and

Page 3651

1 she was at the embassy there?

2 A. It was in the country I live in now. I don't know where she was.

3 Q. Apart from that, have you made any other form of statement?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I want to ask you, please, a short question about events in

6 Rizvanovici when there was an attack there. It's right there was nobody

7 that you saw who was killed during that attack? Do you remember that?

8 A. While I was up there. I remember that because -- and I didn't say

9 there was an attack. There was shelling, artillery, an artillery attack.

10 Q. When you were arrested, there was no killing or serious beatings

11 during the time when you were arrested?

12 A. No, there wasn't.

13 Q. There was an incident, was there not, when somebody was

14 ill-treated. Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes, there was.

16 Q. Involving a person by the name of Gavranovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the soldier who was involved in that said something to this

19 effect as he was interfering with this man. He said, "Fuck the

20 authorities if I cannot kill someone during cleansing." Do you recall

21 that?

22 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And you drew the conclusion, did you not, from what he was saying,

24 was that this individual wanted to do something which was not permitted by

25 the authorities; is that right?

Page 3652

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The information about the man you claim to be Sikirica came from

3 somebody who's related to you; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And he told you, amongst other things, did he, that the person he

6 was naming as Sikirica came from a part of Prijedor called Gomjenica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he was confident, was he, your relation, that that's where the

9 person he was identifying to you came from?

10 A. I can't say that, whether he was confident or not, but that's what

11 he said. Now, whether he was confident or not, I can't say.

12 Q. Would you accept that Gomjenica is a totally different area of

13 Prijedor from the area known as Cirkin Polje?

14 A. I know that very well, yes.

15 Q. And so if someone was described to be a resident of Gomjenica, it

16 could not possibly be confused in any way with Cirkin Polje?

17 A. Well, it can't, but somebody who says that and works in a firm

18 with 3.000 workers cannot know exactly who lives where.

19 Q. As far as when you first saw the man who was identified to you as

20 Sikirica, was it some time after you had arrived at Keraterm that you

21 first saw him?

22 A. Well, several days went by before I came to learn of that name.

23 Perhaps he was there when we arrived, the day we arrived, but we were all

24 beside ourselves and didn't know what was going on, so it was only after a

25 few days went by that we knew who he actually was.

Page 3653

1 Q. When you say that he came to guards, bringing lists that would be

2 read out, did you yourself examine the documents which you say were lists?

3 A. If you mean whether I personally saw -- I don't quite understand

4 your question.

5 Q. Did you personally examine the documents you claim were lists?

6 A. You're talking about documents. No. No. Heaven forbid.

7 Q. Well, you've claimed that this man brought lists that would be

8 read out later on. By "list," do you mean something written down on

9 paper?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you personally examine that which was written down on paper?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And so whatever it was that the man you've identified as Sikirica

14 had with him, you cannot say what it was, in fact, can you?

15 A. Well, I don't know what you would call -- if somebody brings

16 something under his arm, papers, and if he takes out the paper and from

17 that paper reads five or fifty names - it's not important how many - of

18 people in the camp, then what would you call that other than a list?

19 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.

20 Q. If we may turn to an incident where you observed somebody called

21 Cupo assaulting somebody. Is it right that in relation to that incident,

22 that a man called Kajin, when he drove into the camp and observed what was

23 going on, was reported to you as having told Cupo, "Didn't I tell you not

24 to [inaudible]? What are you doing?" Do you recall that?

25 A. I remember. Yes, I remember that exactly. It wasn't -- allegedly

Page 3654

1 that's how it was.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: In the transcript, the question that you asked

3 hasn't come out in full: "Didn't I tell you not to --"

4 MR. GREAVES: "... beat them." I think the little hash, or the

5 little hat mark, I suspect that's where they're going to put it in later

6 on. And I see the young lady who is responsible for that nodding in

7 assent to that proposition.



10 Q. And is it right that Kajin, as soon as he saw what was going on,

11 without delay, in effect took steps to stop what was happening?

12 A. Yes, he did.

13 Q. It's right, isn't it, that many of the acts of ill-treatment

14 towards individual detainees were motivated by guards trying to extort

15 money from those individuals? Would you accept that?

16 A. Yes. Yes, among other things.

17 Q. And many of those incidents were perpetrated by individuals who

18 were not guards at the camp but came from outside; would you accept that?

19 A. There were those too.

20 Q. Dusan Knezevic, Goran Lajic, Zoran Zigic being amongst those who

21 came into the camp but were not part of the staff?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In relation to the Room 3 incident, it's right, isn't it, that you

24 observed, in the afternoon before it happened, 30 soldiers entering the

25 camp? Is that correct?

Page 3655













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3656

1 A. About 30. I can't say whether there were exactly 30, but I would

2 say there were approximately 30.

3 Q. And did they just simply come in and without reference to anybody

4 who was there at the gate?

5 A. Well, I don't know, because the gate was quite a long way away.

6 We saw them coming through the gate. Whether they reported to anyone or

7 went to see anybody, I don't know, but they passed through the gate and

8 entered the camp.

9 Q. And you had never seen any of those soldiers at the camp before;

10 is that right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Sorry. It's not right or you hadn't seen any of them before?

13 A. I had never seen any of those soldiers at the camp before.

14 Q. Thank you. Did you hear subsequently from other people that one

15 of the people who was in this group was somebody called Momir Curguz? And

16 if I've pronounced it badly, please forgive me. Curguz.

17 A. In my statement, as far as I know, I didn't mention a name, but I

18 did hear from the camp inmates who were from Ljubija who might have known

19 him, probably knew him, that he was the son of the late Curguz, who a day

20 or two had been killed [as interpreted] at somewhere at Brdo and that

21 among those people was his son, Momir Curguz's son, nicknamed Krivi, but

22 what his name was, I don't know, his son's name, I don't know.

23 Q. It may not matter exactly who he was, but you had heard that

24 somebody possibly by that name, who was the son of a Serb soldier who

25 died, was amongst the group.

Page 3657

1 Is this also right, that it was a feature of what was going on in

2 Keraterm that individual soldiers would come in and settle old scores,

3 personal grievances, personal vendettas dating back sometimes many years?

4 They would come in and resolve those old scores with individual

5 detainees?

6 A. Well, individuals did come to settle old scores. But as for Momir

7 Curguz, I can't say, although he did come, too, and we knew him very

8 well. He did come to the camp. But I couldn't say that about him.

9 Q. Was there talk amongst the detainees, after this incident had

10 taken place, that the catalyst for it had been the killing of this man's

11 father at Brdo?

12 A. Well, there were assumptions like that. Perhaps that was one of

13 the reasons.

14 Q. The group of soldiers whom you saw coming in, were they armed at

15 the time of their arrival?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With light arms? In other words, automatic rifles?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At the time when they came in, were you able to see how many

20 guards were on duty at the camp?

21 A. I don't know how many were on duty. I couldn't see. I didn't

22 actually pay attention to that.

23 Q. Is it right that a shift at Keraterm during your stay would

24 consist of no more than 15 men at any one time?

25 A. Yes. A shift did have about that many men, although I can't

Page 3658

1 actually say. Perhaps 15 to a shift.

2 Q. And would it be frequently be the case that there were

3 considerably less than 15 guards actually in the immediate vicinity of the

4 rooms?

5 A. Could you explain what you mean? On duty in the vicinity? I

6 don't quite follow you.

7 Q. Yes. During the course of a shift, would it be the case on many

8 occasions that there would only be three or four, five or six guards

9 physically in the immediate area of the rooms?

10 A. Around the rooms. Well, right by the rooms sometimes there would

11 be very few of them, two or three, because the compound was much larger

12 and the gate was rather a long way away. So if you mean right in front of

13 the rooms, directly in front, there'd be very few of them, as far as I was

14 able to understand your question. If that's what you mean.

15 Q. The 30 men who you saw coming in, it would be right to say this;

16 they would significantly outnumber anybody else who was part of the camp

17 staff that day. Would you accept that?

18 A. I don't understand. How do you mean "outnumber"? They weren't

19 enemy forces, hostile.

20 Q. No.

21 A. They were both Serbs. The army was the same one. I don't

22 understand. How do you mean "outnumbered"?

23 Q. If the guards wished to prevent them either from coming in or

24 doing as they wished within the confines of the camp, they would be taking

25 on a group of people which was significantly larger than the group of

Page 3659

1 guards. In that sense, heavily outnumbered by the people who came in that

2 day. Would you accept that?

3 A. Yes, but I don't know what would have happened, whether they would

4 have opposed each other or not, but I accept the fact. And it's

5 mathematics. It's arithmetic. There were more soldiers than guards.

6 That's an arithmetical fact, and I accept that fact. But as I say, it's

7 all maths.

8 Q. During the entire episode involving Room 3, is it right that the

9 inner gates to Room 1 remained open?

10 A. They were always open, yes.

11 Q. But the outside entrance was locked that night, as it was every

12 night; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And on this particular night, it's right, isn't it, that none of

15 you looked out through the door because you were afraid? Do you accept

16 that?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Can you help me about this, please: Do you know a man by the name

19 of Irfan Alisic?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Was he in the same room as you that night?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Whereabouts was he; at the back or in the middle, in the front?

24 Can you recall?

25 A. He was in front, the third from me or second from me.

Page 3660

1 Q. And he, too, no doubt, was keeping his head down, not looking out,

2 because he, too, like you, like your fellows, was afraid of the

3 consequences of so doing. Could you see that?

4 A. I don't know what time of day you're talking about. Night?

5 Q. Throughout the night, whilst these events, these terrible events

6 were taking place, he, like you, like your fellow detainees, was taking

7 steps not to be seen looking through the doors at what was going on; is

8 that right?

9 A. Well, I know what I did, because it was night, and during the

10 night, quite naturally, I was lying down and was afraid for my life and

11 was waiting to see what was going to happen. I wasn't sitting. I was

12 lying.

13 Q. I want to ask you now about an event which you assert happened

14 after the massacre concerning the man you've identified as Sikirica, you

15 claim to be Sikirica. When a shot was fired in the direction of the

16 prisoners who were lying outside, how many prisoners were lying outside,

17 Witness S?

18 A. How many. Well, I don't know, but all those who survived the

19 number 3 room massacre. Perhaps a hundred, perhaps a little more. I

20 don't know the exact number. But those who survived from number 3, they

21 were all lying there.

22 Q. And each of those persons lying outside was closer to this event

23 than you were; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And given what happened, what you claim happened, nobody who was

Page 3661

1 lying out there could have failed to observe that event taking place,

2 given their close proximity to it compared with you?

3 A. Nobody of those hundred people could see the event, no.

4 Q. But they must have been aware of it: a shot being discharged, a

5 man being killed beside them. They would have to be aware of it, wouldn't

6 they? The sound of the shot alone would draw their attention to it,

7 wouldn't it?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. You could hear the shot, could you?

10 A. Yes. Everybody heard the shot.

11 Q. So the people on the ground, it is a reasonable inference to draw,

12 could also hear the shot?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if guards were walking amongst the people lying on the ground

15 and one of them was shot, is there any way in which you say those people

16 on the ground could have been prevented from seeing or knowing what was

17 going on?

18 A. You mean any way that they had not seen? That's highly probable,

19 given the position they were in.

20 Q. They were lying down on their fronts or on their backs?

21 A. On their stomachs, with their faces buried in the grass.

22 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is that no one was shot that

23 afternoon, whether by Sikirica, by Kondic, or anybody else, and that what

24 you have told us is not true, Witness S. Do you accept that?

25 A. That's what you say.

Page 3662

1 Q. As far as events which took place on the 5th of August are

2 concerned, Witness S, it's right, isn't it, that you are not sure who it

3 was who read out the list of people to be taken to Omarska.

4 A. From what I know, what I said in the statement was that I thought

5 that Sikirica had read that list, but ten years have passed, so I cannot

6 assert that. This is why I said that I thought. Secondly, I see no

7 difference between who had read it, because throughout that period he was

8 the one who was bringing in these lists. And I see no importance in who

9 it was that read it, whether it was him or some of the guards, but it was

10 he who actually brought the list with him.

11 Q. It's a matter, with respect, for the learned Judges to decide what

12 importance to attach to this evidence. The fact of the matter is that you

13 are not sure who it was - and this is what you told the Office of the

14 Prosecutor in 1999 - you are not sure who it was who read out the list.

15 Do you accept that?

16 A. I agree. I said that I thought that it was he who read it out.

17 Q. And what I suggest to you is that in your account to the Office of

18 the Prosecutor, you made no mention whatever of it being Sikirica for sure

19 who brought the list of people which was read out that day. Do you accept

20 that you made no mention of that?

21 A. Perhaps nobody had asked me at that point who it was who brought

22 those lists, because the statement that you have in front of you contains

23 only a small portion.

24 Q. It's right, isn't it, that about a week or ten days before the 5th

25 of August, a new commander of the camp had arrived to take over? Do you

Page 3663

1 accept that?

2 A. Could you just repeat the period of time, that is, when it was

3 that the new commander took over?

4 Q. Yes. A week to ten days before the 5th of August.

5 A. Perhaps a week. Ten days may have been too long a period. I'd

6 say about five days before the camp was closed. Ten would be too much.

7 Q. And so on the 5th of August, if, which I do not concede, Sikirica

8 was at Keraterm, he had ceased to hold any position in relation to

9 Keraterm by that date, had he not?

10 A. I don't know whether he had any position, any function during that

11 period, but he was there.

12 Q. Does the name Zivko Knezevic mean anything to you, Witness S?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What I suggest to you is that throughout your period at the camp,

15 the man Dusko Sikirica was no more than the commander of security at that

16 camp; in other words, in charge of the perimeter, the gate, and so forth.

17 Do you accept that?

18 A. That is what you say.

19 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me a moment.

20 [Defence counsel confer]


22 Q. It's right, isn't it, that the phrase you used in relation to

23 Sikirica was "commander of the camp guards"? Do you accept that?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. GREAVES: Right. Thank you very much.

Page 3664

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

2 Before you begin, Mr. Petrovic, I should say that Mr. Greaves has

3 dealt extensively with the question of inducement, which the Chamber

4 believes relates to each accused in substantially the same way. We don't

5 say exactly, but certainly substantially. For that reason, we wouldn't

6 expect counsel for the other two accused persons to dwell on this matter

7 for an inordinately long time. We're not prohibiting questions. If you

8 have new questions to raise, then so be it. Please proceed.

9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I only

10 have one question on that topic, maybe two, so we will be -- it will be

11 dealt with very quickly.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me: When you went to the police, did

14 you submit any documents to them, any documents by the Tribunal

15 identifying you as a potential witness?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can you please tell me: What was the basis of their belief that

18 you were a potential witness?

19 A. They requested, that is, some kind of a certificate from the

20 Tribunal.

21 Q. Did you see this document?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Without mentioning the exact location where you lived in Prijedor

24 before the war --

25 A. I have already said that.

Page 3665

1 Q. We may agree that it was on the left bank of the Sana River. From

2 the location where you lived, were you a witness of an attack of the

3 Muslim forces from that part -- from that area to Prijedor around

4 Ribarski?

5 A. I was at home at that time. I only heard shooting.

6 Q. So you do know that on that day the town was attacked from that

7 area, that is, from the area of Brdo in the direction of the town itself?

8 A. This is what I heard on the radio.

9 Q. Did you see the new hotel on fire?

10 A. The new hotel was not set on fire, but there was some smoke coming

11 from a place near the hotel on that day, but the hotel itself was not on

12 fire.

13 Q. Do you know how many people took part in the attack on Prijedor

14 from the area of Brdo?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know who led these men?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Yesterday, on several occasions, you mentioned the person named

19 Banovic. You said - and this is also in your statement - that this person

20 would come to the camp. Is it true that he would come regardless of the

21 time of the day, regardless of whose shift was on, who was the commander

22 of guard?

23 A. Yes. He was actually a member of the guard. So he was there

24 whenever he was on his duty, but it also happened that he would come when

25 he was not on duty.

Page 3666

1 Q. So when he was not on duty, he also participated in mistreatment

2 of people who were detained there?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. Now I would like to ask you, insofar as you can, can you help me

5 establish how many shifts there were. You said something about it

6 yesterday, but let me try to clarify this further.

7 In your statement, you state as follows: "One shift was the shift

8 in which was -- in which Kole was present."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. "The other shift was the shift of Kajin."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. "The other shift was the shift where the Banovics worked. It was

13 the worst shift."

14 Do you agree with that? Do you accept that?

15 A. I think that the third shift was Fustar's shift and that the worst

16 one was the one in which Banovics worked.

17 Q. So that was that shift?

18 A. Which one?

19 Q. Does that mean that the Banovic brothers came and worked in

20 Fustar's shift?

21 A. Later on, based on the events, and this is what is also contained

22 in the statement, on the basis of a series of events, it seems that he

23 could have been in Kajin's shift, because we said that he was beating this

24 person that was close to me and that Kajin had come and wrested him from

25 the Banovics.

Page 3667

1 Q. But that could have happened when Banovic was not on duty but had

2 come in and had engaged in beating?

3 A. Yes, it could. I couldn't keep track of the shift that he was in.

4 Q. So we cannot draw a conclusion with certainty, that is, that these

5 two worked in Kajin's shift - do you accept that? - because they came

6 whenever they pleased?

7 A. At that time, everybody knew it, but ten years later, I don't know

8 any more who was in whose shift. I cannot tell you after ten years who

9 worked in which shift, who -- which guard was in which shift and things

10 like that.

11 Q. For instance, I can help you by telling you that in reference to

12 this incident when Dzemal Mesic was beaten, Mr. Saldumovic was beaten the

13 same night, and he said that this happened in Fustar's shift. Do you

14 accept that?

15 A. I do, yes.

16 Q. A moment ago you were answering questions regarding the incident

17 when Kajin broke up a beating incident where your brother was a victim.

18 Did you and your brothers know Kajin from before the war?

19 A. No, we did not.

20 Q. In this statement, you said: "Fortunately, Kajin prevented this

21 beating."

22 Does this mean that had Kajin not intervened, that your brother

23 may have suffered the worst consequences?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Does that mean that Kajin saved your brother?

Page 3668

1 A. At that moment, yes, that was the case.

2 Q. Do you agree with me that Kajin had no other reason for protecting

3 your brother since he did not know, except for protecting an innocent

4 person from somebody who was mistreating them?

5 A. This is what would follow. He did not know my brother, and he did

6 prevent Banovic from beating him.

7 Q. So we can agree that the only reason for him having done so was to

8 protect a person who was not guilty of anything and who was being

9 mistreated?

10 A. Yes. That is what follows from that.

11 Q. You mentioned your neighbours and clients and friends, Edin and

12 Huso Ganic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is it true that these men, immediately after the incidents, were

15 taken to the hospital, after what had happened to them?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Were other men with them, that is, others were also taken to the

18 hospital with them?

19 A. Yes. On that day, several people were taken there.

20 Q. Do you recall whether Kajin was the one who was there on that day

21 and who assisted, who assisted them in being transported to the hospital?

22 A. I don't recall Kajin. I don't know who, in fact, was there.

23 Q. If I was to tell you that Edin Ganic, in his statement, both oral

24 statement and in his written statement, stated expressly that it was

25 Kajin, would that help you?

Page 3669

1 A. No, but I accept that he may know better because it was he who was

2 driven.

3 Q. Could -- would it be consistent with how Kajin behaved towards you

4 who were locked up in those rooms?

5 A. Well, yes, that is possible.

6 Q. Many witnesses so far before this Chamber have given evidence that

7 Kajin was correct, polite in those circumstances against the men who were

8 detained there.

9 A. Yes, I do agree with that, but I'm talking to him personally.

10 Q. Well, I'm only asking you about him personally. Many, in fact all

11 witnesses, have given evidence that Kajin personally did not beat anyone.

12 A. I personally did not see him beat anyone.

13 Q. They also said that they had -- that they never saw him ordering

14 him -- ordering anyone to harm any one of those detained there.

15 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. From what you have told us in relation to your brother, I could

17 conclude that he always prevented mistreatment of innocent men so far as

18 he could. Do you agree with that?

19 A. I agree that he saved my brother. Actually, yes, I do agree.

20 Q. In your statement, you were talking about the morning after the

21 massacre in Room 3 and how some men were also brought out from your room

22 to collect these -- the bodies.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you agree with me that this was after all the shooting had

25 stopped, had ceased?


Page 3670













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3671

1 A. Excuse me. I did not quite understand.

2 Q. At the time when men from your room went out to collect the dead

3 bodies, the shooting had ceased?

4 A. Yes, the shooting had ceased.

5 Q. Have you heard about a game of horse and rider?

6 A. I don't understand.

7 Q. Have you heard of a game called "Horse and Rider"? Is your answer

8 no?

9 A. No, I did not. I have not heard of that.

10 Q. Do you recall that for a prolonged period of time, Kole and Kajin

11 worked together?

12 A. No.

13 Q. A moment ago we mentioned a person named Senad Kenjar. In his

14 statement, his written statement, he does not mention any list of 120

15 men. You yourself, in your written statement, do not mention a 120-men

16 list. Both you and he mentioned this for the first time before this Trial

17 Chamber. Can you now tell me: If you never mentioned it in your written

18 statement and, in your words, if you said that you never spoke to him,

19 were you reminded of this list of 120 men by someone?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you tell me: How did you recall it?

22 A. Simply put, I remembered it. What is contained in the statement

23 is just a small part, and I did not go into details.

24 Q. Did you think about details and you recollected that there was

25 this 120-men list?

Page 3672

1 A. I simply remembered it.

2 Q. Could you tell me what triggered off that recollection?

3 A. No, I cannot say what triggered it.

4 Q. How come you did not remember it in 1998/1999, when you had given

5 the statements that we have?

6 A. From what I know, the statement that you have in front of you is a

7 small part, only a small part. We did not go into details, nor was I

8 asked where, what, who. And there were so many events in the camp over

9 those three months. If you were to ask me to mention all the details,

10 this would be a novel, hundreds of pages long.

11 Q. Did somebody ask you here, when you arrived here, about this

12 120-man list?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I would just like to say to you that it is strange and symptomatic

15 that two men, over two days, mention the same list.

16 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say

18 that there was no such list, such as it was mentioned, and that the

19 witness is saying something that was suggested to him, and nothing else,

20 and I apologise if I misstated my question.

21 Thank you. I have no further questions.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

23 Sir Ivan.

24 As a matter of fact, we'll take the morning adjournment now, it

25 being three minutes to 11.00. We'll return at 11.30.

Page 3673

1 Witness S, during the adjournment, you are not to discuss your

2 evidence with anybody, and that includes the members of the Prosecution

3 team.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan.

7 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Sir Ivan, please.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:

10 Q. You told us that you knew him before the war, he was part of your

11 generation, and you knew him around Prijedor, and particularly dancing

12 with the folk dance club which you used to go to.

13 A. You mean Kole? Are you referring to Kole?

14 Q. Are you not hearing me or understanding me? You are. Yes. Let

15 me start again. I want to ask you questions about Kole, and were the

16 questions I asked you correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was he friends with your Muslim neighbours, the brothers Suad

19 and Said Varmaz?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did he seem to be a nice person?

22 A. Yes. Before the war, yes.

23 Q. And very friendly with Muslims, like the Varmazes?

24 A. With the two of them, yes.

25 Q. And others?

Page 3674

1 A. Well, I knew the two of them and I know they were close, but I

2 don't know about any others. I don't know how many Muslim friends he

3 had. I don't know that.

4 Q. All right. Fair enough. In the camp, was Kole's shift the best?

5 A. It was.

6 Q. And was that because he tried to improve the conditions for the

7 detainees?

8 A. I don't understand, "he tried to improve the conditions." What do

9 you mean?

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... All right. Did he help to

11 get food into the camp from the families of detainees?

12 A. Well, yes. On his shift, food could get in.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm only talking about him and his shift, all right?

14 Did he get the families to bring in blankets and medicines for the

15 detainees?

16 A. That is something that I have no knowledge of.

17 Q. Did he help detainees to use the telephone out to their families?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know. Possibly. I don't know. I didn't

19 see that.

20 Q. Very well. Good answer. If you don't know, say, "Don't know."

21 When there was a shortage of water, do you have recollection of

22 him trying to get more water into the huts, into the rooms?

23 A. I don't understand the question. I don't remember any major

24 shortage of water. Water was brought in water tankers to us. Now,

25 whether it was thanks to him or whether that was something regular, I just

Page 3675

1 can't say.

2 Q. So your recollection is there was no water shortage in Keraterm?

3 A. I don't understand what you mean the shortage of water if water

4 was brought to us every day. A cistern, a water cistern came every day,

5 and we would pour that water. Now, I don't understand. What shortage do

6 you have in mind?

7 Q. You must understand, Mr. S, we've heard a lot of evidence from a

8 lot of witnesses often saying different things, and I'm trying to

9 establish from you what you can remember about the conditions in the camp

10 and the behaviour of Kole. Do you understand that?

11 A. I do, yes.

12 Q. So is it your evidence that there was no shortage of water in

13 Keraterm while you were in the camp?

14 A. I did not notice any shortage of water. Maybe there was a

15 shortage in Room 3, but personally, I did not experience it because I

16 had -- we had our plastic bottles. So when the water tanker would come,

17 we could fill them up and await the next day when the water would be

18 brought again.

19 Q. And there was no problem?

20 A. Well, I had no problem in that regard, no.

21 Q. Thank you. And that was after the 18th of June until you left the

22 camp at the end?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Thank you. And if you can't help about Kole's part there, one of

25 the reasons why Kole's shift was the best was because beatings didn't go

Page 3676

1 on on his shift; is that right?

2 A. Well, that was the most important thing for us at that time, and

3 yes, that is correct.

4 Q. So you never saw him beat anybody?

5 A. I did not.

6 Q. You never saw him present when anybody was beaten?

7 A. I did not.

8 Q. You never heard anybody say that Kole was beating anybody?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. Or present at a beating?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. Can I ask you next, Witness S, about the evidence you've given of

13 soldiers coming in to the camp on -- leading up to the massacre, which I

14 think you said in your statement was probably July the 25th, but we know

15 it was July the 24th. Will you accept that? Over the night to the 25th.

16 Will you accept that date-wise? Oh, dear. As far as date is concerned?

17 A. I think that my statement says 24th or the 25th, although I'm not

18 quite sure to this day as to the date. I simply don't know.

19 Q. Will you accept from me that it was the night of the 24th and into

20 the 25th? Will you accept it? It's the evidence and there's been no

21 dispute about it.

22 A. Very well. Possibly.

23 Q. And you've told us that sometime in the afternoon, you saw a

24 substantial number of soldiers come on to the camp.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3677

1 Q. Now, we've heard evidence from one witness who said that an

2 extraordinarily large number of vehicles arrived. Did you see a large

3 number of vehicles arrive with soldiers in?

4 A. I saw no vehicles.

5 Q. So you didn't see the vehicles, but you did see soldiers about on

6 the camp or arriving at the camp?

7 A. They entered on foot. They walked into the camp.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. No vehicles. They didn't arrive in vehicles.

10 Q. The ones you saw didn't arrive in vehicles. The ones you saw

11 walked in; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And a large number?

14 A. Well, yes, an unusually large number for private visits.

15 Q. And they came in waves, didn't they? Some soldiers arrived and

16 then another lot of soldiers arrived and another lot of soldiers arrived.

17 Did you see that?

18 A. No. As far as I can remember, they all arrived together.

19 Q. You didn't see the machine-gun put onto the table, did you, you

20 just noticed that it was there after the soldiers had arrived?

21 A. Yes, that's right, after awhile. I did not see when this was

22 being put there.

23 Q. And it hadn't been there before, the one on the table?

24 A. I don't understand the question.

25 Q. It hadn't been there before the soldiers arrived?

Page 3678

1 A. No, never before.

2 Q. So you --

3 A. Neither the table nor the machine-gun.

4 Q. You quite reasonably assumed, although you didn't actually see it,

5 that the soldiers brought in the machine-gun and set it up on the table?

6 A. I don't understand what you mean. I did not see the soldiers put

7 that machine-gun on the table.

8 Q. But it wasn't there before the soldiers arrived.

9 A. No. It wasn't, no.

10 Q. So it would be reasonable to assume that the soldiers who were

11 standing round it, were they not, had put it there?

12 A. Sounds logical. Yes, one could assume that.

13 Q. And the soldiers outnumbered the guards, the regular guards on the

14 camp, did they not?

15 A. Yes. Yes, I would agree with that.

16 Q. And the soldiers took control?

17 A. What control? I don't understand.

18 Q. What is the difficulty about understanding? Is it the translation

19 or -- I don't know. Why do you keep saying you have difficulty

20 understanding me? Can you understand the translator? Can you understand

21 the translator?

22 A. I do not understand what you're talking about. What control?

23 Taking over what control? Over the camp, over the guards, over us? What

24 kind of control?

25 Q. All right. Over the camp.

Page 3679

1 A. I mean, I don't know. I do not know whether they assumed the

2 control over the camp. I have no way of knowing that.

3 Q. Try and be helpful to us. I mean, every time I ask you a

4 question, you say you don't understand. Just try and give us a --


6 MR. LAWRENCE: Not again.

7 MS. BALY: The witness has, in fact, answered my learned friend's

8 question. He does not know. And in my submission, it's quite unfair to

9 say to him that he's persisting in saying he doesn't understand. He has

10 quite legitimately said he doesn't understand what kind of control and

11 then he's answered his question.

12 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm chastened.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think she has a point. He has said that

14 he doesn't know. You did ask specifically whether he had control over the

15 camp, and he said, "I don't know," and I think we have to take that.

16 MR. LAWRENCE: With respect, may I just press him with this.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, not for very much longer, Sir Ivan.

18 MR. LAWRENCE: I have a number of questions to ask. I'll do my

19 best, as quickly as I can, but I must, out of fairness to my client, put

20 the case.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but you can put the case without repeating

22 questions.


24 Q. The soldiers came in in large numbers, an unusually large number

25 of soldiers; yes?

Page 3680

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They outnumbered the guards; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They must have, in all logical probability, put a machine-gun on a

5 table outside the buildings.

6 A. Sounds logical.

7 Q. They were gathered around the machine-gun when you saw them?

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. There was somebody in command issuing orders, presumably, to the

10 soldiers?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. Did you not hear anybody giving instructions?

13 A. To those soldiers?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you mean to say they didn't, or you've forgotten after nine

17 years? You may very well have forgotten.

18 A. No. I did not see anyone, any specific individual, issue any

19 orders.

20 Q. The soldiers didn't just come in and were silent, did they? They

21 were there on the camp for quite some time before the shooting began, were

22 they not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was there nobody talking, shouting? All silent?

25 A. No, they were not silent, but you want me to -- you want to say

Page 3681

1 that there was somebody under whose command they all were, and I did not

2 see that. I did not see whose orders they obeyed.

3 Q. But did you hear shouting? Did you hear anybody shouting orders:

4 Come here, go there, bring this, do this, line up; the sort of things

5 soldiers say? Did you see nothing of that, or can't you remember?

6 A. No, I did not see anything like it.

7 Q. So your recollection is they all went about their business

8 silently, with nobody giving any orders or shouting anything; is that what

9 your evidence is?

10 A. No. No. They were not silent, but you want me to identify some

11 supposed commander of theirs; is that it?

12 Q. No.

13 A. That is what you want from me, is it?

14 Q. No. You're not listening very carefully. I've never asked you to

15 identify the person giving orders. I'm merely asking you: Was there

16 someone or were there people giving orders?

17 A. I did not see them. I had no way of concluding or finding out who

18 was their superior, showing it by his conduct.

19 Q. And were you watching them or were you doing something else in

20 your room for much of the time up until the shooting started?

21 A. Again, watching.

22 Q. Continually or from time to time?

23 A. No. Now and then [as interpreted]. Not now and then. It was

24 very dangerous all the time.

25 Q. Now, was it not obvious to you that the soldiers had taken over

Page 3682

1 control of the camp?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When the shooting started and you made your statement about it and

4 you recalled Kole saying -- shouting things, which I'll come to in a

5 moment, didn't you tell the Office of the Prosecutor that it did not

6 appear that he was in a position to give any orders?

7 A. Yes, I did say that.

8 Q. And did you mean by that that any control he had had, he had now

9 lost?

10 A. One could say that.

11 Q. So the soldiers had taken control by then?

12 A. I do not know.

13 Q. Well, he had lost control, yes, if he had ever had it?

14 A. Kole. Yes, you could say that, yes.

15 Q. So who then had control, in your opinion?

16 A. Well, at that time, those soldiers there, as likely as not.

17 Q. Can I move now to what you say you recall Kole shouting. The

18 firing is going on in bursts; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you are in Room 1?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. How many people in Room 1 with you?

23 A. Well, we were about 350, thereabouts.

24 Q. And you were where in Room 1?

25 A. Right by the entrance.

Page 3683

1 Q. And were there a large number of other people by the entrance,

2 trying to see what was happening?

3 A. I did not see anyone try to see. I did not see, nor did I try to

4 see anything because by that time it was already dark. So you couldn't

5 see anything. Besides, there was a lot of fear, so that I cannot say that

6 I saw something, because there was dead silence at the time and we were

7 all frightened, at least I and those around me. We were all lying down,

8 and we barely breathed, let alone talk or something.

9 Q. At the time that you heard Kole shouting, you were lying down,

10 were you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Not looking out of the door to see who was shouting where and what

13 was happening; lying down?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In fear?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. With hundreds of other people in the room in the same state?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Trying not to look?

20 A. Well, I don't know who was trying what. I don't think there was

21 anything to see. I did not try.

22 Q. It would be natural in those circumstances for people to cover

23 their heads and blot out what horrible thing was happening, wouldn't it?

24 A. I wouldn't go along with that.

25 Q. You don't think it would be natural for people to cover their

Page 3684

1 heads and blot out all sound and all sight of what was happening?

2 A. It wouldn't be logical. Well, I didn't do it.

3 Q. It was a horrifying incident for you, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you shocked?

6 A. Well, I don't know how to answer that. I was very much afraid.

7 Whether I was shocked, I don't --

8 Q. Answer it honestly and as clearly as you can. Were you in shock

9 when you realised what was happening?

10 A. Well, I was very afraid. A state of shock -- "shock" is a medical

11 term, as far as I understand it, but I was very much afraid. I was

12 terrified.

13 Q. I mean it in the sense that you and I, ordinary people, would talk

14 about it. Were you shocked by what was happening?

15 A. Well, shocked. I was shocked, but perhaps that day we were

16 prepared for something like that, because not only the shooting but whole

17 day was a short of shock in a way. Not only that particular moment, but

18 the whole day was like that. The whole day was fraught with --

19 Q. Could you understand --

20 A. -- catastrophes.

21 Q. Could you understand what was happening?

22 A. No, I couldn't understand.

23 Q. So were you confused?

24 A. Yes, confused. Yes.

25 Q. Bearing all that in mind, do you have any difficulty in


Page 3685













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3686

1 remembering, now nine years later and when you first made your statement

2 six and a half years later, precisely what words were used by anybody at

3 that time? Any difficulty?

4 A. Well, you couldn't hear it much. There was general shouting,

5 noise, that kind of thing. You couldn't actually discern what people were

6 actually saying in all that noise and commotion going on.

7 Q. And doing your best to remember in those circumstances what it was

8 Kole said or shouted at the time of the shooting, what do you say?

9 A. I say that I heard Kole say a sentence; that is to say, throughout

10 the whole time he was saying something to them, talking to them, and at

11 one point I heard the sentence, the sentence that is in the statement.

12 Perhaps I remember it particularly well because it had to do with us. It

13 referred to us. So perhaps it -- I remembered it because we hoped that

14 they would leave us alone perhaps.

15 Q. Yes. And what was the sentence that you recalled when you made

16 your statement?

17 A. Well, it was a sentence, Don't touch, at least don't touch people

18 in 1 and 2, don't touch Rooms 1 and 2, which came as a relief.

19 Q. And this was while machine-gun -- a burst of machine-gun was going

20 on or after a burst of machine-gun fire had gone on or before any

21 machine-gunning had gone on?

22 A. As far as I remember, it was in the lull between the shooting.

23 Q. So there had been a burst of machine-gun fire?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that had been -- the first burst of machine-gun fire had been

Page 3687

1 directed at Room 3? Do you know that?

2 A. I don't know. I don't know.

3 Q. So when the firing had stopped on Room 3, if that was the target

4 for the shooting, the first shooting, Kole was shouting, in effect, "Don't

5 touch Rooms 1 and 2," as far as you can recall?

6 A. Could you be more specific in your questions?

7 Q. Yes. I'm sorry if I wasn't. We know that the machine-gunning was

8 all done at Room 3. That was the target. All right? And you're telling

9 us that you remember Kole shouting what you recall him shouting after that

10 first -- or after bursts of machine-gunning had already happened; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So the picture appears to be that the soldiers may have finished

14 with Room 3, and now in case they were going to turn to any other rooms,

15 there was Kole, saying, "Not Rooms 1 and 2." That's your impression, your

16 recollection; is that right?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sir Ivan --

18 Don't answer the question yet, Witness.

19 Insofar as you have put to him that the picture appears to be that

20 the soldiers may have finished with Room 3, I bring to your attention that

21 the witness has not said anything about Room 3, and it would not be fair

22 to put the question in that way because he has not given any evidence in

23 relation to Room 3.

24 MR. LAWRENCE: I think I said "if," but if I didn't, I apologise.

25 Q. If the shooting had been at Room 3, you recollect Kole saying,

Page 3688

1 "Don't shoot." That was the essence of what he was saying, was trying to

2 stop the soldiers shooting any more; is that right?

3 A. Well, he said that in the pause between the shooting. And you say

4 if the shooting had been done at Room 3. I don't know whether the job had

5 been finished or not. There was shooting again, and it lasted for a

6 longer period of time. But we gain the impression that perhaps when they

7 finished with 3, they would start on the other dormitories.

8 Q. That's why you remember, if not word for word, the essence of what

9 he appeared to be saying: "At least not Rooms 1 and 2."

10 A. Yes, that's how it was.

11 Q. Now, can you be sure that he said "at least," or is this just

12 something that you're doing your best to remember but may not be accurate,

13 "at least"?

14 A. He said "at least," or something in that context, that kind of

15 thing. That's what I thought, that it was said in that kind of context.

16 Q. Yes. The impression you got was: "You've shot. Don't shoot any

17 more in this direction, 1 and 2"?

18 A. No. "You shot and don't shoot any more." They didn't shoot at

19 Room 1 and 2 at all.

20 Q. You said in your statement, "I think he did use the word 'at

21 least.'" So you are not absolutely sure he used those words, but you're

22 conveying the meaning that you gathered?

23 A. Well, perhaps that's up to the translation or a language

24 difference or --

25 Q. But you accept that you said that in the statement that you made

Page 3689

1 to the Prosecutor, "I think he did use the word 'at least'"? You accept

2 it. Let's not argue about it.

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And is that all you remember him saying about any more shooting

5 that the soldiers had in mind? Is that all he said?

6 A. Yes, that's all I remember specifically.

7 Q. You didn't hear him giving any reason or explanation for not

8 shooting at Rooms 1 and 2?

9 A. I didn't hear it.

10 Q. He didn't say they haven't been questioned yet or interrogated yet

11 or anything like that?

12 A. Perhaps he did, but I can't -- I don't remember.

13 Q. You didn't hear it. And you only heard him say it once, you've

14 told us.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He didn't go on repeating it?

17 A. Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't, but I didn't hear him.

18 Q. You only heard it once?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you have no idea where he was standing at the time he said it

21 because you were on the floor, not looking, and you couldn't have seen?

22 A. No. No.

23 Q. I want to put to you some recollections that we've heard in this

24 Court about what other people who were present at this moment thought they

25 heard, told us they heard Kole shouting. Did you hear him say, "Don't

Page 3690

1 shoot at the people"? No.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you hear him say, "Don't fire in this direction"?

4 A. No, I didn't hear.

5 Q. Did you hear him swear either something like, "Fuck you. Don't

6 fire. Stop firing" --

7 A. No

8 Q. -- "Fuck your Serbian mothers. Stop firing"? Did you hear that

9 kind of cursing from Kole?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you hear him say, "I'm responsible for these people," anything

12 like that?

13 A. No

14 Q. "Who is going to account for this?" anything like this?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you hear him say, "Don't touch Room 4"?

17 A. I didn't hear that, no.

18 Q. Did you hear other things shouted just about this time, over this,

19 you know, few minutes or so: "Stay in the rooms. Don't leave," something

20 like that? "Break the window"?

21 A. No.

22 Q. "Give people water"?

23 A. No.

24 Q. "Put the hose in the room"?

25 A. No.

Page 3691

1 Q. "If anybody tries to leave, stop them"?

2 A. No.

3 Q. "I can't control the situation"?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you hear soldiers shouting, "What are you meddling in? Let us

6 kill them all"?

7 A. No.

8 Q. "Why don't you break the door down, Turks, and then we'll shoot

9 you," something like that?

10 A. No, I didn't hear that.

11 Q. Do you accept that you may not have remembered everything that was

12 shouted over this period of time?

13 A. Could you repeat that? I accept that I may not have remembered?

14 Could you repeat your question, please.

15 Q. It was really that. Do you accept that you may not have

16 remembered everything that was shouted by Kole or soldiers at this time?

17 A. I agree with that.

18 Q. I want to just ask you about the remembering process. There came

19 a time when you decided that you wanted to give evidence; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you went to make a statement, did you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is the first occasion in which you went to make the statement the

24 15th of January, 1999, or were there a number of occasions when you told

25 anybody orally in advance what you could help with if you made a written

Page 3692

1 statement?

2 A. No. What happened was we made contact three times.

3 Q. And on the third time, did somebody say they were interested?

4 A. You mean for my testimony, statement?

5 Q. I may have misunderstood you. Please help me. You phoned

6 somebody up or wrote to somebody and said, "Look, I was in Keraterm. I'm

7 prepared to make a statement," did you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was that before you made this long statement on the 15th, 16th of

10 January and the 2nd of March?

11 A. It was by telephone, a telephone conversation, and it was a little

12 before that. Then they came to me, to see me on two occasions, twice, and

13 then we gave the statement. We made the statement.

14 Q. Before the statement was actually written down by somebody called

15 Tariq Malik -- do you remember that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He was your interviewer. Did anybody bother to ask you roughly

18 what you could remember before they decided whether to ask you to make a

19 full statement?

20 A. In the telephone conversation, he more or less said -- that is to

21 say, I more or less said. Briefly I told him about the events in the

22 camp, and on the basis of that, he said he would come to take a statement,

23 an in-depth statement.

24 Q. All right. And how long after that telephone conversation did you

25 make the statement?

Page 3693

1 A. I think it was shortly afterwards.

2 Q. What's "shortly"?

3 A. Well, perhaps the first statement took place -- don't know

4 exactly, but, say, a month later or perhaps a little longer than that.

5 Q. In that month, did you try to concentrate your mind on precisely

6 what you could remember?

7 A. Well, I didn't have to prepare myself in any special way.

8 Q. You knew you were going to have to make a statement with details.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Of a horrifying period of your life which you'd probably been

11 trying to forget.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Didn't you try to get your ideas clear before you actually made

14 your statement?

15 A. Well, I don't understand. What I knew, I knew.

16 Q. Had you ever talked about what happened with anybody?

17 A. Well, a little bit, but I didn't -- I did it reluctantly. I

18 didn't like to talk about it with anybody else.

19 Q. Did you ever meet any of the other detainees?

20 A. Every day there. They were inmates, camp inmates, so that

21 necessarily was the case.

22 MR. LAWRENCE: I think we ought to go into private session, if I

23 may ask.


25 [Private session]

Page 3694













13 Page 3694 redacted private session.













Page 3695













13 Page 3695 redacted private session.













Page 3696













13 Page 3696 redacted private session.













Page 3697













13 Page 3697 redacted private session.













Page 3698













13 Page 3698 redacted private session.













Page 3699













13 Page 3699 redacted private session.














Page 3700













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3701

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness S, that concludes your evidence and you

20 are released.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 MR. LAWRENCE: May I ask the Court, obviously we keep forgetting

23 when we would be in private session, speaking for myself, I don't speak

24 for the others, and I certainly have kept forgetting, and I notice that I

25 haven't been alone, when the private session ought to have ended.

Page 3702

1 Is it not possible for the Court to order that those matters that

2 ought to be only confined to private session should be privatised and that

3 those passages that no longer needed to be in private session could be

4 given public status so that, as it were, we get round our own

5 inefficiencies? And what, of course, happens by us being inefficient is

6 that a lot of evidence that ought to be public isn't and occasionally some

7 of the evidence that ought to be private is in public. Is there not some

8 power in the Tribunal to be able to --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we would have that power, but I think we

10 best put your minds to it and --

11 MR. LAWRENCE: I certainly agree.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- I think with the cooperation of counsel, the

13 Bench, and the registrar, and other parties, we should be able to identify

14 when we should be out of private session.

15 MR. LAWRENCE: I've raised it, and perhaps the Tribunal at some

16 stage --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

18 Mr. Ryneveld.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. At the outset, I want to say

20 that I take umbrage with some of the comments that my friend has made

21 during the private session concerning the procedure and imputing some

22 inappropriate method by which the Prosecution may be dealing with the

23 witnesses.

24 MR. LAWRENCE: I think, since that's an imputation of me, I ought

25 to deny it totally. I was making absolutely no imputation, and I can't

Page 3703

1 understand why my learned friend is being hypersensitive about it. I

2 wasn't making any suggestion of any impropriety. It's just the

3 common-sense way, in my respectful submission, in which things develop.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan. We have the statement of

5 Mr. Ryneveld and your response.

6 MR. LAWRENCE: I put it clearly on the record that I'm not making

7 any imputations of impropriety to my learned friend or anyone.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Your Honours, the Prosecution next

10 intends to call Witness K38. Protective measures are in place, as I

11 understand, and I would propose that he be referred to as Witness T, and

12 I'd like to start in private session for two or three questions, if I

13 may.


15 MR. RYNEVELD: I might also, while we're waiting for the witness

16 to be brought in, indicate that we were extremely hopeful that our new

17 approach to calling only highlighted portions of a witness's potential

18 evidence-in-chief would save time. I can indicate that, by our records,

19 the last witness took 35 minutes for the Prosecution and more than five

20 times as long, 2 hours and 44 minutes for the Defence in total. If we

21 keep going that way, we are not going to accomplish our objective.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are quite right, and the Chamber has noticed

23 it. The cross-examination has to be tailored to the specific points, and

24 we will not allow cross-examination to run on and on and on in the

25 future.

Page 3704

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

9 MR. RYNEVELD: We are in private session for the first few

10 questions, if we may. Thank you.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves.

25 MR. GREAVES: Could I so helpfully assist my learned friend

Page 3705

1 Mr. Ryneveld say that he may lead on paragraphs 1 to 3, but thereafter, we

2 would object strenuously to any form of leading at all.


4 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, I will take that under advisement.

5 Thank you.

6 Q. Sir, I understand that you worked at the Celuloza factory in

7 Prijedor from 1978 until 1992; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what was the last day that you worked?

10 A. The last day was when the attack on Hambarine took place.

11 Q. Did you go to work after that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Why not?

14 A. We could no longer go to work.

15 Q. Sir, I'd like you to -- do I understand that the attack on

16 Hambarine occurred on the 23rd of May, 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, sir, do I understand that on that day, you saw some events?

19 Can you tell us about what you saw that particular day and what action, if

20 any, that you and your family took as a result of that.

21 A. On Radio Prijedor, we heard that we all had to turn in our weapons

22 and to surrender to this Serb military, to their army, and we were given

23 until 12.00 to surrender. We did not do it. We did not surrender. We

24 were looking down in the direction of the Mulalic hill. The Mulalics were

25 the first area where the attack started. And at around 12.30, we saw the

Page 3706

1 tanks rolling and the houses on fire. When they fired a shell, it

2 exploded about 40 metres behind us. We dispersed and we each started

3 running to our homes and got our families and ran for the woods.

4 Q. All right, sir. Now, the next morning, do I understand correctly

5 that you returned to your homes after having hidden in the forest

6 overnight?

7 A. I returned home with my family. The houses were not destroyed.

8 We went back. We washed and ate, and when we went -- when we came back,

9 18 or perhaps even more soldiers arrived. I think more.

10 They took us prisoner. They brought us to the main street. They

11 lined us up, and they told us that -- and they asked whether there was

12 anybody else from outside. We said that there was no one, and they said

13 that if someone was to start shooting from behind the hedges, "We'll all

14 shoot you all."

15 Q. Did you see an incident of shooting, sir?

16 A. While we were lined up after we were taken prisoner, there was a

17 neighbour. His name was Fajko Padjan. His house was about 50 metres

18 away. They were in a field, and they saw the soldiers, and the soldiers

19 told them, "Come over here." Fajko Padjan started running away and three

20 or four soldiers started shooting after him and one of them shot him and

21 wounded him.

22 Q. All right. Sir, I'm going to skip over the next period of time,

23 apparently 15 days or so. Soldiers came to your house on various

24 occasions, and then on the 11th of June, something happened. What

25 happened then?

Page 3707

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]. We had to put our

17 hands behind our head. We had to look down in front of us. Then we heard

18 a burst of gunfire almost immediately. And we arrived in front of

19 Ika's cellar.

20 Q. Sorry, the person whose cellar it was, what do you call him? What

21 was his name? Sorry.

22 A. [redacted].

23 Q. [redacted]?

24 A. [No translation]

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours --

Page 3708

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. That was [redacted] cellar.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I'm about to get into the incident

4 starting at paragraph 6, and I wonder, since it's lunchtime, whether you

5 would like me to start or whether you want to start --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we'll take the break now.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness T, we're going to take an adjournment.

9 We'll return at 2.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your

10 evidence with anybody, including the members of the Prosecution.

11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.















Page 3709

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, Witness, just before the lunch break, you told us that you,

5 together with a number of other men, were taken to a place that you called

6 [redacted] cellar. Is that correct?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. And who took you there?

9 A. Three soldiers took us there.

10 Q. And when you got to the cellar, were you the only occupants when

11 you got there?

12 A. When I got to the cellar, there were about 15 people, and

13 meanwhile my wife arrived, five minutes later, and other people kept

14 arriving, and we stayed in the cellar until 1.00.

15 Q. And I didn't ask you what time you arrived at the cellar, but how

16 long would you say that you had been in the cellar?

17 A. Until 1.00. We stayed there until 1.00.

18 Q. Then I will ask you this question: About what time was it when

19 you arrived at the cellar?

20 A. It was around half past 6.00 in the morning, I think. That's when

21 it was. Yes, half past 6.00.

22 Q. Now, during the time between 6.30 a.m. and 1.00 p.m. that you were

23 in the cellar, did something happen? What happened?

24 A. Yes. Soldiers came. They were asking for gold, for jewellery,

25 from women, from all of us. That's what they said, that whatever we had,

Page 3710

1 that we should give them, money and jewellery.

2 Q. All right, sir. Now, at some point did you leave the cellar; and

3 if so, how did that come about?

4 A. We did not leave the cellar. We were in the cellar throughout,

5 until an officer or somebody - I don't know - but he was in a military

6 uniform and he ordered me[redacted]

7 [redacted]. He

8 told us that we should all come out and then ordered, "Take those men and

9 kill them." And he said to those others, "Your frontier is Carakovo," to

10 those others who stayed in the cellar.

11 Q. Were you in fact taken out after this individual told the soldiers

12 to take these people out and kill them? Were you taken out?

13 A. We were taken out and reached the checkpoint, the checkpoint they

14 were manning there, about 30 metres away, and we stopped there when we

15 reached the checkpoint. And they were roasting meat and they had a

16 barbecue next to the checkpoint, eating meat. And at that moment,

17 Mr. Sikirica approached our line and took me out of that line and took me

18 to the other one, to the previous one who had selected us. And when we

19 were near him, Sikirica went up to him and had a conversation with him.

20 And that man only waved his hand, and Sikirica put his hand on my shoulder

21 and told me, "Go and take your wife and children wherever."

22 Q. I'm going to stop you there. I'll get back to that, but you said

23 a man called Sikirica. Now, did he approach you?

24 A. He approached me, Dusko Sikirica.

25 Q. Did he know you?

Page 3711

1 A. I believe he did.

2 Q. How did he know you?

3 A. Well, we knew one another from the pulp and paper factory, from

4 the Celuloza factory. For a while, he was my foreman.

5 Q. He was your foreman.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. As your foreman, would you see him on a daily basis?

8 A. Well, he was the foreman in our factory. Yes, during that time I

9 saw him, but then he left. He wasn't there. He was absent for a time. I

10 suppose he had been to the front, but he wasn't there all the time.

11 Q. How long had you known Mr. Sikirica and how long had he been your

12 foreman?

13 A. I knew Sikirica for about two years, and he was the foreman --

14 well, I'd say about eight months.

15 Q. So during an eight-month period, you would have seen him on an

16 almost daily basis. Is that what I understand your evidence to be, sir?

17 A. Yes. Yes, we met.

18 Q. Would you recognise this individual that you refer to as Sikirica

19 if you were to see him again?

20 A. I would.

21 Q. I invite you to look around the courtroom today, sir, and if the

22 person that you refer to as Sikirica, if you see him, would you tell us

23 where he is, please.

24 A. I can, yes. He sits to the left, on the left-hand side, between

25 two policemen.

Page 3712

1 Q. For the record, you're looking at the back wall. There are six

2 chairs. Three people are in police uniform. If you're counting from left

3 to right, which of those six chairs -- what number chair is he sitting in,

4 including the police officers?

5 A. From left to right, one, two.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: For the record, identifies the accused.


8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

9 Q. Now, how was it -- no. Let me rephrase that.

10 You say that he approached you. Can you tell us in some detail

11 the dealings that you had with Mr. Sikirica at the checkpoint.

12 A. At that checkpoint, when I stepped out of the line when he saw me,

13 I told Sikirica, "My father and my mother and my relatives have stayed

14 behind in the house," and he just made a gesture and said, "Oof."

15 Q. Now, while you were dealing with Mr. Sikirica, did the soldiers do

16 or say anything?

17 A. Soldiers were saying, at the time he took me out of the line, they

18 were sharpening their knives and shouting, "Give me this one. Give me

19 that one. Give me that one to cut his throat." Those were the words that

20 they used.

21 Q. And was that in Mr. Sikirica's presence?

22 A. Yes, it was.

23 Q. Now, do I understand your evidence, sir, that after he approached

24 you and you told him your situation, that it was at that point that he

25 went and spoke to the other officer that had selected you? Is that what

Page 3713

1 your evidence is?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Were you able to overhear the conversation between Mr. Sikirica

4 and the other officer?

5 A. No.

6 Q. As a result of that conversation, I believe you indicated that the

7 officer made a gesture of some sort and then Mr. Sikirica told you

8 something. Do you remember what it was he said to you?

9 A. Sikirica told me wherever and to take my family away, to just get

10 away.

11 Q. Did you do that?

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 Q. I'm going to get to that issue in just a little bit, but I'm now

22 interested in the period of time immediately after Mr. Sikirica told you

23 to get out of there.

24 En route to your house, did you hear any sounds of any kind?

25 A. I did, yes. On my way, after Sikirica had told me to get away, I

Page 3714

1 heard bursts of fire, and the sound came from the direction of my house.

2 Q. En route to your house, prior to seeing the bodies that you've

3 just indicated to us, as a result of speaking to your son, did you see

4 anything else that was noteworthy to you?

5 A. It was when we saw those bodies near the house. We let the

6 livestock out and I said, "We have to leave," and we returned to the main

7 road and set off to Carakovo. And [redacted] houses away from mine, Almir

8 Habibovic was killed there and Dzita Habibovic. And we set off to

9 Carakovo.

10 Q. Did you look at these bodies at all?

11 A. I looked at those bodies. I approached them, but we could not

12 help them. One of them was lying down, face down, and his back was all

13 punched with bullets. And Dzita was next to the house. Half of his head

14 was missing. So that we could do nothing, and I picked up his wife and

15 children and set off to Carakovo.

16 Q. Had you seen those individuals --

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The sequence of events after Mr. Sikirica told

19 him to go away isn't very clear. There's evidence as to his seeing two

20 bodies and then later on seeing a number of bodies.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. Maybe I should return to the

22 sequence of events.


24 MR. RYNEVELD: I don't want to repeat necessarily the evidence,

25 but I want to clarify what he saw and when.


Page 3715













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3716


2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Thank you very much.

3 Q. Sir, just -- you've told us about seeing two sets of bodies.

4 You've told us about seeing a number of bodies along with your uncle and

5 your father, who had survived, but you also told us about seeing two

6 bodies that you've named. Tell us in what order you saw those things. In

7 other words, Mr. Sikirica tells you to get away, get out of there, and en

8 route to your home, do I understand that that's when you saw the first two

9 bodies?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Please clarify that for us.

12 A. My house was before that house when I was to go to Carakovo, and I

13 first turned to my house and then we saw those bodies. That is where my

14 uncle and relatives had been killed. And after we had seen all that and

15 that we could do nothing about it, then we moved from my house, we took

16 the main road to Carakovo, and it was then that we saw those two bodies,

17 where we saw those two bodies a little later.

18 Q. Okay. Just so that I have it clear: You saw -- en route from

19 being dismissed by Mr. Sikirica, you went towards your house, and that's

20 when you saw the bodies of various relatives that you've mentioned; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Towards my house.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And where was that in relation to where

24 Mr. Sikirica was?

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

Page 3717

1 Q. How far away was that in relation to where Mr. Sikirica had seen

2 you at the checkpoint?

3 A. It was some five to six hundred metres away.

4 Q. And then, after that, you continued on and saw two more bodies; is

5 that correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Now, sir, you said that, as you were leaving, you heard the sound

8 of shooting; is that correct?

9 A. I heard that shooting as I walked down the road.

10 Q. And this is immediately after you were being sent away by

11 Mr. Sikirica?

12 A. Well, about five or six minutes later.

13 Q. Now, could you tell, from what you observed of the bodies of your

14 relatives - and I don't want you to name them. I think you've named them

15 once already - could you tell how they had died? Was there any evidence

16 from which you deduced how they had died?

17 A. They were taken away and killed, from automatic rifles. They were

18 shot from automatic rifles.

19 Q. Did you see any bullet wound marks; and if so, where in the body?

20 A. [redacted]body, I saw holes on his back. And on the back

21 of [redacted], I also saw holes in his back.

22 Q. You say [redacted]." Do you know how old he is?

23 A. [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted].

Page 3718

1 Q. Sir, then you say you went to Carakovo; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you got there, who, if anyone, was there?

4 A. In Carakovo were Carakovo villagers, and all those who had been in

5 the cellar, women and children, old people, we heard all escaped to

6 Carakovo. And we put up [as interpreted] with Razim Kljajic, with my wife

7 and children. And when I found the shelter there, then I asked whether

8 you saw my father and my uncle, because I knew that they had stayed

9 behind. I didn't find them. And they indicated that he was on the top of

10 the Carakovo hill, and I went there and I found him. My father had been

11 wounded in the arm, in the leg. And I found my uncle there also. And I

12 put my father in a wheelbarrow and I brought him down to the main road,

13 where Razim Kljajic was, and one Munib Sacevic [phoen] found a horse cart

14 and took my father to the hospital in Prijedor.

15 Q. You say you took your father in a wheelbarrow down to the main

16 road. Did you see the type of injuries he had sustained to his arm and

17 his leg? What were they?

18 A. Those were bullet wounds.

19 Q. How old is your father?

20 A. My father was 58.

21 Q. Sir, I understand that you ultimately moved to Prijedor and you

22 and your family left Prijedor on the 13th of January, 1993; is that

23 correct?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. Prior to being -- prior to leaving Prijedor, do you know whether

Page 3719

1 you or your wife had to do anything in order to be permitted to leave?

2 A. Yes. I did not sign anything. My wife chased all those papers.

3 She had to go to the bank, to the post office, everywhere, so that they

4 could see if we owed them anything or not. She had to go to the military

5 department. And she had to pay for it all so that we would be allowed to

6 leave Prijedor, and she also had to sign that I was renouncing my house

7 and my land and all that I had.

8 Q. Did your wife, to your knowledge, sign documents signing over your

9 property to the authorities?

10 A. She did. Yes, she did that because she had to do it.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Those are my questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

13 Mr. Greaves.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

15 Q. Witness T, can you help me about this, please: You've been asked

16 about the attack on Hambarine. It's right, isn't it, that until that

17 attack took place, you continued to work at the factory where you'd been

18 working for some time? Do you accept that?

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 Q. Did you also take part in some of the events which involved the

21 defence of your village at that period?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in 1998 about

24 these matters; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3720

1 Q. It's right, isn't it, that at this time, you were invited to join

2 the defence of the village, and during the night you walked around with

3 groups of six or seven men? Do you accept that?

4 A. We just toured our own houses. It was quite normal that we went

5 around while the women and children slept.

6 Q. Can you help me about this, please: On the 24th of May, 1992, at

7 the end of the events, the attack on Hambarine at that occasion, it's

8 right, isn't it, that at that stage, no houses had been destroyed, no

9 villagers had been killed? Do you accept that?

10 A. I agree. Yes, I accept that.

11 Q. It's also right, is it not, that on the 24th of May, there were

12 some soldiers near to your home, some of whom brought chocolate and sweets

13 to the children? Do you remember that?

14 A. I remember that, yes.

15 Q. There then followed, did there not, a period of 15 days of peace

16 and quiet, no further fighting in your village? Do you accept that?

17 A. I accept that, yes.

18 Q. Turning now to the 11th of June, you went to the cellar at 6.00 in

19 the morning. It's right, isn't it, that you remained there for some six

20 or seven hours? Do you accept that?

21 A. Yes. Yes, I do. From the morning until the afternoon, we stayed

22 in the cellar.

23 Q. When you had gone into the cellar in the morning, is it the case

24 that at that stage, the village was intact and people were still alive?

25 A. Well, I can't know that for the whole village. As far as my

Page 3721

1 hamlet is concerned, Luscani, yes, it was standing, it was intact, and the

2 people were alive.

3 Q. Just so that we can get an idea of the geography, Witness T, is

4 Luscani -- is that a distinct and separate part of this area of

5 Hambarine?

6 A. No. No, it's not a separate part. We just called it that,

7 Luscani. One little area was called Brdjani, then we had Luscani, then we

8 had Padjani, all -- with a set of houses and households. So they're

9 little hamlets or parts which were called Luscani, Brdjani, and so on.

10 Q. And your -- let's use your phrase "hamlet." This hamlet of

11 Luscani, on which side of Hambarine was it? Was it on the Ljubija side or

12 on the Prijedor side or indeed another side which I haven't mentioned?

13 A. Well, the Luscani was the first you came upon after Carakovo, and

14 you can see the whole of Prijedor.

15 Q. So -- you've described earlier there being a road between

16 Hambarine and Carakovo. It's effectively on that road; is that right?

17 A. Yes, along that road. From Hambarine you go straight to Carakovo,

18 along the main road.

19 Q. And help me about this, please: Prior to the 11th of June, had

20 there been some checkpoints on the main roads in the area manned by Serb

21 military forces?

22 A. There weren't any checkpoints until the shooting at Hambarine

23 started, when the first shell was shot. And when they arrived at

24 Hambarine, then there was a checkpoint. So the only checkpoint I saw was

25 at the junction that I was at. I didn't dare go further on, nor did I go

Page 3722

1 further on. I didn't see any other checkpoints.

2 Q. It may be that the question I asked was not a good one, but prior

3 to the 11th of June, in other words, in the period leading up to the

4 events in your hamlet, prior to that, between the end of April, say, and

5 the 11th of June, on the main roads leading out of Prijedor, had you

6 become - and you used to go to work so you would have to go through any

7 that were there - were there checkpoints on the way into Prijedor?

8 A. There was one checkpoint and that was in Prijedor, on the bridge,

9 and we had to show our ID cards. That's the only checkpoint I know about.

10 Q. So the checkpoint to which you eventually got and saw Mr. Sikirica

11 that day, on the 11th of June, was that something that had appeared on the

12 11th of June? In other words, it had been set up on the 11th of June?

13 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember the date. I don't

14 remember any dates. All I know is when Sikirica was at Hambarine, then.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I didn't see Sikirica anywhere else at all. From that day on, I

17 never saw him again.

18 Q. Not what we're after. I don't think there's any dispute, but the

19 day in which you were in the cellar and that you saw Mr. Sikirica was the

20 11th of June. The events --

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. And that was the day when the terrible things happened in your

23 hamlet. That's what we're talking about.

24 From what you have said, may we conclude that the checkpoint where

25 you saw Sikirica on that day, the day you were in the cellar, was a

Page 3723

1 checkpoint which had been set up that day and had not been there before

2 that day? Is that correct?

3 A. Well, I didn't see Sikirica at any other place, just there. He

4 took me out of the cellar. That's where I saw him.

5 Q. Please, Witness T. I'm not dealing with Mr. Sikirica save and

6 except to locate this checkpoint. So don't worry about Mr. Sikirica.

7 There is a checkpoint. At that checkpoint, something happens in

8 relation to Mr. Sikirica. Is it the case that that checkpoint was not

9 there in existence prior to the 11th of June?

10 A. I don't know. When I came back from work that evening, I didn't

11 go -- leave home at all. I just walked around my home, my house, and out

12 houses. I didn't go anywhere beyond my plot of land.

13 Q. When you came out of the cellar, having been in there six hours --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- with this gentleman in uniform, you then walked away from the

16 cellar in which direction? Could you help us about that?

17 A. Towards the checkpoint, when they took us out of the cellar.

18 Towards the checkpoint. I went off towards the checkpoint.

19 Q. And in which direction - in other words, in the direction of

20 Prijedor, in the direction of Ljubija, in the direction of Carakovo - did

21 you go? Help us about that.

22 A. In the direction of -- towards Prijedor. That's the best I can

23 explain, because I was going from my house towards Prijedor. And if I go

24 to the right, then I go to the Carakovo. That's the main road, to the

25 right. So this was towards Prijedor.

Page 3724

1 Q. So would this also be correct, that when you went towards the

2 checkpoint, it was in the opposite direction from Carakovo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you cannot say at what time Dusko

5 Sikirica arrived at this checkpoint, because he was already there when you

6 got there? Do you accept that?

7 A. Well, I can't say exactly when he arrived. Yes, I agree with you;

8 I don't know when actually that was.

9 Q. And your meeting with him and your presence at the checkpoint that

10 day, did that last just for a few minutes before you then returned to your

11 home?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that was the last which you saw of Sikirica at all?

14 A. The last time, yes --

15 Q. Until today?

16 A. -- except I heard -- yes, until today. But I heard from a friend

17 that he had asked after me where I was, that he said he'd like to see me.

18 Q. Yes. It was he who recognised you initially, was it, rather than

19 you recognising him, or did you see each other at the same moment and

20 recognise one another at that same moment?

21 A. Well, that was how it was: at the same time.

22 Q. And it was he who then came over to you and put his arms around

23 you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If I can just demonstrate to you what I think you may mean. Like

Page 3725

1 this?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And I'm demonstrating with my arm around our interpreter. And he

4 then ushered you away from the line of people; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that his first words to you were this:

7 "What are you doing here?"

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. And you told him this, did you not: "Sikirica, my father and my

10 uncles are left behind." Do you accept that?

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 Q. And his next words were: "Where?" And you then replied: "At

13 home." Is that right?

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. At that moment, you thought you were being taken away to be

16 murdered, didn't you?

17 A. I thought so, yes, and he said they were taking us off to murder

18 us.

19 Q. That's not what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor, is it?

20 All that was said, I suggest, was what we have just talked about, Witness

21 T. That's right, isn't it?

22 A. I didn't quite understand your question. Could you repeat it,

23 please?

24 Q. He said nothing about -- the officer who was in charge of your

25 group may have told you what was going to happen to you, but Sikirica

Page 3726

1 certainly did not, did he? The only conversation between you was that

2 which I have put to you. Do you accept that?

3 A. Sikirica didn't tell me anything, no. He didn't say he would kill

4 me or anything like -- anything.

5 Q. Thank you. At that point, he moved you further away from the

6 group of soldiers; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at that point, the officer, or the man who had collected you

9 from the cellar, came over and had a conversation with Sikirica; is that

10 right?

11 A. Sikirica talked to that man when Sikirica took me off. We

12 returned from the checkpoint towards my own house, that is to say, towards

13 Carakovo, the cellar. I went back to the cellar from which I had gone. I

14 went in the opposite direction. And when I came back, when Sikirica took

15 me away from the line, from the group of people, I went back to my own

16 house, towards that cellar.

17 Q. I simply wanted to establish with you that Sikirica had a

18 conversation with the man who had taken you from the cellar, and this:

19 that you could not hear what was going on during that conversation.

20 A. I couldn't hear, no.

21 Q. Having had the conversation, Sikirica came back to you and made it

22 clear to you that you should leave the area; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. At that point, you returned, retracing your steps, went past the

25 area where the cellar was; is that right?

Page 3727

1 A. That's right, yes.

2 Q. And in due course, on to your own home, and then, as you've

3 described it, to the places where you saw people's bodies?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And that was half a kilometre to 600 metres away from the

6 checkpoint?

7 A. Yes, and that's when I got home. That's where my house is.

8 Q. And then, having seen the scenes that you did see, you then went

9 off to Carakovo, again away from the checkpoint still further; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you help me, please, about this: Your father was eventually

13 taken to the hospital; is that right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And that was due to the intervention of, I think, some friends or

16 somebody who knew your father; is that right?

17 A. It was my friend too, the young man who worked with us in the

18 Celuloza paper and pulp factory. That was in Carakovo. I didn't dare

19 take him off down there. And he said, "I'll take him with a horse and

20 cart to the hospital," and they gave him medical assistance there. He

21 stayed in hospital. He was there for eight days.

22 Q. I'm sorry just to return slightly to one issue. It's something I

23 haven't asked you about. When Sikirica was talking to the man who had

24 fetched you from the cellar, it was the man who had fetched you from the

25 cellar who made a gesture indicating that you should be released; is that

Page 3728

1 right?

2 A. No. Sikirica made the gesture, and I said that my father and my

3 uncles were still at home. When Sikirica took me off and when I told

4 Sikirica this, he said, "Ugh," and nothing else.

5 Q. Let me just clarify with you. Sikirica and the person who took

6 you from the cellar have a conversation. At the end of that conversation,

7 Sikirica tells you to leave the area. Immediately before telling you

8 that, it's right, isn't it, that you observed the man who had collected

9 you from the cellar make a gesture with his hand, indicating that you

10 should be let go? Do you accept that?

11 A. Yes, right.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. That's it.

14 Q. Were you aware, prior to the 11th of June, of a checkpoint on the

15 Prijedor-Ljubija road at all?

16 A. No.

17 Q. In due course, is it right that a member of your family went to

18 Simo Drljaca, indicating that you needed medical treatment and you were

19 then given the appropriate permission to travel without restriction

20 through the checkpoints? Do you accept that?

21 A. That's right. It's right that I got confirmation from Simo

22 Drljaca and permission. My sister-in-law, she brought this permit to me,

23 to Carakovo, so that I could pass and go on to Prijedor, because I

24 couldn't pass the checkpoint from Carakovo without a permit. I had to

25 have this permit or certificate.

Page 3729

1 Q. Now, it's right that - and you've told us earlier about your

2 return to Prijedor - in the meantime you had been to Trnopolje, hadn't

3 you?

4 A. That's right, yes.

5 Q. And you went there in September of 1992, and you went in to what

6 you describe as the Trnopolje camp in the old school building, and you

7 were there with your family; is that right?

8 A. Right, yes.

9 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that you were not taken to Trnopolje by

10 force? Indeed, you paid someone 430 marks to take you there. Do you

11 accept that?

12 A. That's right, yes. Yes.

13 Q. And amongst other things, that individual, who I think you had

14 known also at the Celuloza factory, informed you that you would be

15 recorded and registered in a computer and that you'd soon be able to leave

16 Prijedor; is that right?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. And would this be correct, that you chose to go to Trnopolje

19 because you regarded that as a sufficiently safe place for your family?

20 A. Well, I probably thought it was safer because all the people were

21 there. So I thought that it would be simplest for me to do the same.

22 Q. And whilst you were there, neither you nor your family were

23 beaten, nor did you witness any killings of any kind or beatings in

24 Trnopolje. Do you accept that?

25 A. Yes.


Page 3730













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3731

1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, just give me a moment, please.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. GREAVES: Sorry. I'd turned my microphone off.

4 Q. Finally this, Witness T: You remained in Prijedor until January

5 1993. After your return from Trnopolje, you were not in any way harassed

6 or assaulted, and indeed, your Serb neighbours did what they could to

7 prevent any such thing from happening?

8 A. That's right, yes. They were my neighbours, my sister-in-law's

9 neighbours.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness T. I'm sure you will understand that those of

11 us on this side of the room have the very strongest sympathy for what

12 happened in 1992, and I hope you will accept that from us.

13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

15 Mr. Petrovic?

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We have no

17 questions of this witness.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

19 Sir Ivan?

20 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions on behalf of Kolundzija.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

22 Mr. Ryneveld?

23 MR. RYNEVELD: No re-examination, thank you.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Ryneveld.

25 Witness T, that completes your testimony, and you are released.

Page 3732

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

3 MS. BALY: The next witness does have the protective measures of

4 facial distortion and a pseudonym, as granted in the order of 22nd

5 December 2000.


7 THE REGISTRAR: Pseudonym for the next witness will be Witness U.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

11 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]


16 Examined by Ms. Baly:

17 MS. BALY: Mr. Usher, can you show the witness, please, this

18 document that I'm handing you. Thank you.

19 Q. Do you see written on that document your name and your date of

20 birth?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did you understand that in proceedings before the Tribunal,

23 you will be referred to as Witness U?

24 A. Yes.

25 MS. BALY: I tender the document.

Page 3733

1 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number 43.


3 Q. Now, Witness U, prior to the 23rd of July, 1992, did you reside in

4 the village of Zecovi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is that a village which is in the municipality of Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As at the 23rd of July, 1992, was it a village that was comprised

9 entirely of people of Muslim ethnicity?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, on the 23rd of July, 1992, was the village attacked by

12 Serbian forces?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. After the attack or during the attack, did you flee into a nearby

15 forest?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the name of that forest?

18 A. Kurevo forest.

19 Q. Is it the case that, during the attack, a number of Muslim people

20 were killed and a number of Muslim houses in the village were burnt?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, when you escaped to the forest, did you remain there for some

23 months?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Toward the end of August in 1992, were you joined by a man who

Page 3734

1 said he'd come -- he'd been a prisoner in the Keraterm camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was this man's name?

4 A. Baja Ferhatovic. Actually, his real name is Ibrahim Ferhatovic

5 and Baja was his nickname.

6 Q. When he came to the forest, did you notice something about his

7 condition, and if so, what did you notice?

8 A. I noticed that he had been wounded in the hand and one leg, and he

9 wore bandages.

10 Q. Did he tell you what had happened to him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. He said that he had been a prisoner at Keraterm camp, that later

14 on he was transferred to Omarska camp but was not taken in there, so he

15 was taken back to Trnopolje camp. They spent the night there. The next

16 day, they were called out again, and near Lusci Palanka, on the

17 Prijedor-Sanski Most road, they were taken out on the bus and they were

18 executed there.

19 Q. Did he say how he had been transported?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did he say?

22 A. He said that they were transported in buses.

23 Q. Did he describe to you this execution?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Just tell the Court, please, doing the best you can, what he

Page 3735

1 said.

2 A. He said that they were transported in those buses and that they

3 arrived at Lusci Palanka. There was a forest there, where four soldiers

4 were waiting for them. They were armed. They were taken off the buses

5 there. They walked on foot to some pit, and there they executed them in

6 groups of four.

7 Q. And did he tell you what happened to he himself?

8 A. Yes. He told us what had happened to him.

9 Q. Just tell us what he said.

10 A. He said that he was the fourth in that line. They were all hit,

11 and he was hit too. They all fell into the pit. After that, the night

12 had fallen, and he came to. He had been unconscious. Then he climbed out

13 of the pit. He then reached the village of Stari Majdan. There he met a

14 woman. He said he didn't know who she was. She bandaged his wounds. He

15 came up there with her. She fed him. And from there, a group of men came

16 to the village, and the group from the village then went to the forest and

17 he arrived there in late August.

18 Q. Did he tell you the names of some of the men who had been

19 executed?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. Can you name them, please?

22 A. Yes, I can. He said -- he mentioned the following names: Emin

23 Ferizovic, Nerhin Ferizovic, Smail Brdar, Huskan Hujic, Bajro Hujic, Emsud

24 Zukanovic, Muste Zukanovic, Miralem Hopovac, Samir -- Suljo Brkic and

25 Rehjan Hopovac. Those were the men he knew personally.

Page 3736

1 Q. What happened to this man, Mr. Ferhatovic? I mean after he had

2 spent some time in the forest, what happened to him then?

3 A. Later on -- at first he was with us. He hid alongside with us in

4 the forest until November and then he went looking for food, and since

5 then, he disappeared without a trace.

6 Q. Just finally, I want to take you back to the attack on the

7 village. How many people would you say had been killed?

8 A. From what I could observe personally, I saw my brother, who was

9 killed on that day, and my neighbours, four of them - a mother,

10 daughter-in-law, and two grandchildren - and there were three nephews also

11 who perished that day.

12 Q. Are you able to give an estimate, just approximately, of the total

13 number who had been killed in the attack?

14 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the exact number. I saw when the

15 army had passed through the village, everything had quieted down. I found

16 my parents in the house, and that's when I saw the dead bodies in front of

17 houses.

18 Q. I'm not asking for an exact number, but just an approximate number

19 of bodies that you saw.

20 MR. GREAVES: With respect, he's actually answered that question:

21 How many people would you say - please wait - had been killed? "From what

22 I could observe personally --" and then he goes on to detail what he has

23 said. What my learned friend is trying to do is to get something

24 different out of him.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.

Page 3737

1 MS. BALY: I'm not pressing the question. That completes the

2 examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.

4 Mr. Greaves.

5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, may I persuade you to take your break a

6 little earlier so that I can confer with my learned friend who assists

7 me? It may well be that we can be rather shorter if you let me do that

8 than I had originally anticipated.


10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness U, we are going to take a short break of

12 about 15 minutes. We will return at five minutes to 4.00. During the

13 adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that

14 includes the members of the Prosecution.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.

17 MR. LAWRENCE: Before my learned friend continues, I wonder if I

18 can just raise something with the Court.

19 We have a logistical problem. It is the Dutch holiday today, so

20 it is impossible for us to visit the detention centre and see our client

21 today, tomorrow. We don't normally do it over the weekend either because

22 there are problems. So it means that we won't be able to see him until

23 Monday at the earliest. I'm not even sure whether Monday is a day when we

24 can visit. We have a limited number of days we can visit in any week.

25 And in those circumstances, since there are a number of witnesses that I

Page 3738

1 need to consult with Mr. Kolundzija, I wonder if the Court would consider

2 rising at the end of this current witness and that would give us an hour

3 here. If the Court would kindly, in addition, make an order that we can

4 see him here until the normal time for the Court rising at 5.15. I think

5 we can transact our business within the hour.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We agree, yes, because ultimately it will

8 expedite the proceedings.

9 MR. LAWRENCE: That's always the aim.


11 MR. LAWRENCE: I'm most grateful.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves.

13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

15 Q. Witness U, can you help me about this, please: You first gave an

16 account of matters to the Office of the Prosecutor in November 1998. Do

17 you recall being interviewed about these matters at that time?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. How did you come to get in touch with the Office of the

20 Prosecutor? Did you approach them with a view to giving evidence?

21 A. No.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please approach the

23 microphone.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, will you please come closer to the

25 microphone and speak into the microphone.

Page 3739


2 Q. Having been interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor in

3 November 1998, did you subsequently then get re-interviewed by them in

4 November 2000, November of last year, Witness U?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GREAVES: May we go briefly into private session, please.

7 [Private session]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]


22 Q. Witness U, in relation to the incident at Zecovi, it's right,

23 isn't it, that a large number of people escaped from that place through

24 the wooded forested area and its surrounds? Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3740

1 Q. Turning now to the matter involving the gentleman who appeared out

2 of the forest and who told you what had happened to him, he was someone

3 who had been in the woods alone for something like a month; is that

4 right?

5 A. No. He was in the woods with us.

6 Q. His name was Ibrahim Ferhatovic. It was towards the end of August

7 1992 that he came to the forest, was it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the closing of Keraterm camp - we've heard a considerable

10 amount of evidence - 5th of August, 1992, where had he been, as far as you

11 know, in the intervening period?

12 A. I do not know anything about his whereabouts.

13 Q. And when he came to you, was he someone who was in a distressed

14 condition?

15 A. Oh, he was simply bandaged because of those two wounds.

16 Q. He had been a survivor of a terrible incident where someone had

17 tried to execute him. Was he a man who was obviously traumatised by his

18 experience, Witness U?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when he recounted to you what had happened, did he show signs

21 of distress and confusion about what had happened?

22 A. No.

23 Q. As far as the route which he recounted to you the buses had

24 taken --

25 A. Yes.

Page 3741

1 Q. -- he described, in any event, the buses going to Omarska. We

2 have heard from other witnesses that, in fact, the buses stayed at

3 Omarska.

4 A. Well, I don't know where the buses went. I'm telling you what he

5 told me.

6 Q. Of course. Given what had happened to him and your observations

7 of him, do you think it may be that he was mistaken and confused about his

8 account on this topic?

9 A. No, I don't think so. I do not know if he made any mistake. I

10 simply saw that he had those two wounds and that they were bandaged, his

11 arm and his leg. He didn't look confused.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, Witness U, that you spent, in 1993 and 1994,

13 a period in prison? Do you remember that?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And the reason why you were detained in prison was on suspicion of

16 having been involved in terrorist activity, wasn't it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Being a member of an armed band which had been going round

19 murdering people; isn't that right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And you were subsequently released in I think March 1994, were you

22 not, having been pardoned for those activities?

23 A. I was exchanged on the 4th of April, 1994. I was in the Tunjice

24 camp in Banja Luka.

25 Q. Why do you say that you were detained, Witness U?

Page 3742

1 A. Why? Because after that day, after the 23rd of July, I fled from

2 my home when those troops arrived; and when I came back toward evening and

3 saw what had happened to my brother and my nephews and how they had been

4 killed, I did not come out of the woods and show myself to anyone. So I

5 hid in the forest for 17 1/2 months.

6 Q. You've described Tunjice as a camp. That's not entirely accurate,

7 is it, Witness U? It's a proper prison, is it not?

8 A. Well, to my mind, it was a camp.

9 Q. A place where you and a group of some 16 other people were held

10 from your group that had been out in the forest; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And all of you, I suggest, had been held on suspicion and

13 investigation in relation to terrorist activity. That's right, isn't it?

14 A. No.

15 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. No further questions.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.

17 Mr. Petrovic.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. We do not

19 have any questions to ask of this witness.


21 MR. LAWRENCE: We have no questions for the witness on behalf of

22 Kolundzija.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.

24 Ms. Baly.

25 MS. BALY: No re-examination.

Page 3743

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness U, that completes your testimony. You

2 are released.

3 Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I understand the Chamber is prepared to

5 break for the evening at this point.


7 MR. MUNDIS: I was wondering if it might be possible to raise with

8 respect to the next witness an application for protective measures at this

9 time rather than doing it first thing in the morning.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes. Let the witness leave first.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, the next witness the Prosecution intends

14 on calling has expressed a desire to have the use of a pseudonym and

15 facial distortion during the course of his testimony. I can set forth

16 briefly the grounds for the oral application if the Chamber would like to

17 hear those grounds.


19 MR. MUNDIS: The witness is currently residing in a third country,

20 is currently in the process of rebuilding his home in the Prijedor region,

21 and has expressed fears for his safety with respect to his eventual return

22 to the Prijedor region were his identity to become known. In addition, he

23 is currently residing in this third country with his father, who he has

24 also indicated has a desire to return home, and it's the Prosecution's

25 respectful request that he be permitted to testify --

Page 3744

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Mundis, please.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Certainly. -- that he be permitted to testify under

3 pseudonym and with facial distortion. I will also add that this witness

4 has previously testified before this Tribunal, I believe in the Kupreskic

5 trial and/or the Omarska trial, and testified with similar protective

6 measures in those cases.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Greaves.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Damir Dosen's Defence

9 objects to any protective measures for this witness, because this witness

10 has very serious accusations against our client and these accusations have

11 never been even hinted at. This testimony necessitates public

12 verification. It needs to be heard by the public. The public needs to

13 know in detail what this witness has to say about our client. Testimony

14 under a pseudonym in this case would be highly prejudicial because he has

15 very severe accusations, the severest accusation that this Chamber has so

16 far had an opportunity to hear in this case. Moreover, this witness has

17 already testified, and we do not think that the reasons we just heard

18 suffice to grant him protection, because he has some very serious

19 accusations and yet wishes to avoid any public verification of that. He

20 does not want the public to hear loudly and clearly what this witness has

21 to say against my client. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Greaves, did you indicate -- or

23 Mr. Londrovic?

24 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] We support Mr. Petrovic.



Page 3745













13 Blank page inserted to ensure Pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English transcripts.












Page 3746

1 MR. LAWRENCE: I think the appropriate position is to say that I

2 formally object, with my colleagues.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We note the objections made by Mr. Petrovic on

5 behalf of Damir Dosen, but this witness is in precisely the same position

6 as many other witnesses to whom we have granted protective measures. The

7 fact that he makes serious allegations against one accused is not by

8 itself a reason not to grant the protective measures if he indeed warrants

9 the protection. That is the essential issue; does he warrant, in the

10 circumstances, the protection? The Chamber concludes that he does in

11 these circumstances. We note that he was indeed granted protective

12 measures in another case. The application is granted.

13 We now take the adjournment until tomorrow morning at 9.30.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.20 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day

16 of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.