1 Wednesday, 12 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for the Prosecution is continuing.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, can I have a few words, please?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

13 MR. PANTELIC: I wish to express my deepest condolences on behalf

14 of my colleagues and clients to all of our colleagues here from America

15 here within this Tribunal for yesterday's tragedy.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

17 WITNESS: ROBERT DONIA [Resumed]

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I believe that when we were finishing

19 yesterday, there was a question pending from the Bench for Mr. Donia, and

20 before I begin, perhaps he could answer Your Honour's question.

21 Just to remind the Court of those, Your Honour asked Mr. Donia

22 whether or not the fact that this particular document regarding Variant A

23 and B was not signed was unusual, whether in his prior experience all

24 documents are or are not signed.

25 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, let me say that I have examined

1 probably hundreds, rather than thousands, of party documents from the

2 period, principally from the HDZ and SDS. Most documents that are in the

3 custody of the preparer are signed and stamped simultaneously and so

4 retained. Those that are distributed, the record is much less clear on

5 whether there is a stamp and a signature. Quite typically there is the

6 name of the addressee somewhere on the document.

7 In this particular case of this document, there is, in fact, a

8 number on the first page of the original, which is handwritten. This is

9 the first -- the cover page of the B/C/S version of this document.

10 If in fact the document is authentic, it would have been addressed

11 to somewhere between 100 and 109 municipal boards, the number of

12 municipalities, and this document that I have in front of me bears the

13 handwritten number 96. So I would say that in form, this corresponds to

14 at least some of the document that I've seen that are distributed to a

15 substantial number of recipients.

16 JUDGE SINGH: We have on our photocopy slightly obliterated. I

17 just see the bottom of a stroke which is 9 and 6. It is quite imperfect.

18 Is that where it is, at the top, 96?

19 THE WITNESS: I'm looking at -- this is -- the number that I have

20 up here is 00252738. This is the B/C/S version of the document.

21 JUDGE SINGH: You're looking at the front page where you see the

22 numbers 100.

23 THE WITNESS: I have number 96.

24 JUDGE SINGH: May we have a look at your copy, please?

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, certainly.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have another copy. I see that it's different.

2 I have the number 100 also. I don't know if the Court wants to compare

3 that.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. Ours bears the number 100, as does the

6 Prosecutor's copy. So yours is different. Perhaps you want to explain

7 that.

8 THE WITNESS: My understanding, Your Honour, is that there are

9 several different numbers that have been acquired which represent

10 different numbering of this particular document.

11 JUDGE SINGH: Perhaps, Dr. Donia, you would want to look at the

12 Court's copy to see if the rest of the pages are the same.

13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't hear you.

14 JUDGE SINGH: I was suggesting that perhaps there is a need to see

15 that the rest of the pages in that exhibit are the same.

16 THE WITNESS: I'd be glad to.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Dr. Donia, I'm just wondering. Yesterday, if I

18 remember correctly, you mentioned that the copy of this document was one

19 that you found in the archives from a certain magazine.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So I'm wondering, therefore, how we therefore

22 have two different numbered copies - 96 you have, and we have 100 - if you

23 Xeroxed from the archives one copy. I'm a little bit confused on that.

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, my understanding is that the

25 Prosecution has acquired several different numbered documents, and these

1 were provided for me. This is the first time I've seen the English --

2 authorised English translation of this document.

3 My first encounter with this document was indeed in the newspaper

4 published in March of 1992, and I was familiar with it in that version

5 that is published only with no number indicated until a couple of months

6 ago. If I may just take a minute and compare.

7 Your Honours, I would just note that on the variant -- or the

8 version 96, the number 96, in the original B/C/S there is some handwriting

9 that appears on the third page that is not in the document numbered 100.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I see, Counsel.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. We have not been disclosed

12 these other copies of the documents: 96, 100, whatever. Can we have just

13 a look at this? I mean, we cannot really object to this until we see the

14 copies of that.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. Thank you for pointing it out that

16 you have different numbers as well. So maybe the Prosecution can explain,

17 if there is any explanation.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: My understanding from my colleagues is that all

19 versions have been disclosed to the Defence, but we can clarify that. To

20 explain to the Court, there are several copies of this in the B/C/S

21 language that were seized from various locations by the Tribunal or given

22 to the Tribunal by various parties, so there are different versions.

23 Apparently there were different copies with different numbers handwritten

24 on them, depending on where that copy came from.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is the problem we are having, because

1 different counsel may have different numbers, the Court has a different

2 number. So it's important that whatever document is exhibited, all the

3 copies are from that document. Yes, because we also have a secondary

4 problem, as always with these documents, that of translation. You have it

5 in this language. You have it -- we may even go into looking at it,

6 whether it was correctly translated. So that creates a lot of problems.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: The copy that the Court has - and I don't know if

8 counsel has it - is on the original in B/C/S -- the ERN number, the

9 stamped number on the bottom, is 00184274 on the first page.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: That number has been put -- is it original from the

11 original document, or from the document which was found in the magazine,

12 or is it a number put by your office?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's a number put by our office. I don't know if

14 we want to stipulate to that for all purposes, but I think that every

15 document that will submitted to the Court will have a sequential

16 eight-digit number that we call the ERN number --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, for the Prosecutor's office.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Through the Evidence Unit it's given that number.

19 Does counsel have that copy?

20 Perhaps, given some of this confusion --

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps I think the quick solution

24 to this is as follows: that a copy of Professor Donia's document be

25 extended to the Court, and if you have diverse other copies, to show a

1 proliferation of this document at source, from wherever you collected it;

2 then, if you have three or four or five such copies, then you make a

3 bundle of those for whatever purpose you wish to.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. I've been informed that all

5 copies -- all three versions have been distributed to the Court and

6 counsel. Perhaps we don't take up the Court's time at this point. I can

7 move on to my examination, and we can make sure later that it's clear.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can move on. Then we can come back to this

9 at any other stage when you are ready, you have made sure that everybody

10 has common copies.

11 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Donia, can you resume your PowerPoint presentation, and then

13 I'm going to ask you to go forward on that. Can you please move forward

14 to the maps on the next presentation.

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, on the screen is a map. It's labelled

16 map 13 in the materials before the Court, and it's entitled "Bosanski

17 Samac and the History of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

18 Q. Dr. Donia, what does this map --

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Excuse me. May this map be given an exhibit

20 number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This map shall be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit P2M.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN:

23 Q. Dr. Donia, what does P2M depict?

24 A. This map is from the -- I took from the book of Lord David Owen,

25 and it shows the situation in Bosnia and Croatia in early 1992. It

1 specifically shows the position of the so-called United Nations protected

2 areas, or UNPAs, at the end of the war in Croatia. And these areas which

3 are lined - and if I may assert to the Court, I've coloured in these a

4 little bit for highlighting - these areas were controlled by local Serbs

5 and the JNA within Croatia.

6 That defines, in a sense, the strategic problem that the JNA faced

7 in the spring of 1992, because, as you can see, these areas are not

8 contiguous east to west; so that the JNA - excuse me - the JNA had no way

9 of establishing supply lines or communications between the eastern UNPA

10 there around Vukovar and the western UNPA, with the city of Pakrac in the

11 middle of it, other than to go through Bosnia. And in fact, the route lay

12 logically through northern Bosnia, which was flat land and which was the

13 by far easiest and shortest way to establish communications, first of all,

14 between the areas of the Serb-controlled areas within Croatia to the west

15 and Serbia to the east and, also, as the spring of 1992 moved forward,

16 between Serb-controlled areas in Western Bosnia and Serb-controlled areas

17 in Eastern Bosnia. So this map, I hope, explains the emergence of the

18 Posavina Corridor just south of the Sava River, which emerged as a narrow

19 strip of land which was strategically very important to the JNA.

20 Q. Can you show on the map with the arrow where the Posavina Corridor

21 is?

22 A. Roughly in this area here.

23 Q. Is Bosanski Samac in that corridor?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And can you move forward to the next map, please. And what does

1 this map depict?

2 A. Again, with some apologies, because this map is from 1995. It

3 shows the disposition of military forces at the time of the Dayton Peace

4 Agreement, and it specifically shows, as of 1995, basically toward the end

5 of the war, the very narrow strip of land controlled by Serb forces, which

6 then is the -- in fact the Posavina Corridor.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: May this map be given an exhibit number.

8 THE REGISTRAR: This map shall be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit P2N.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN:

10 Q. Can you move forward to the next map.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: And may this map of the northern area of Bosnia be

12 given an exhibit number.

13 THE REGISTRAR: This map shall be marked Prosecutor's Exhibit P2O.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN:

15 Q. Dr. Donia, does this depict the area of northern Bosnia that

16 includes the Posavina Corridor?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. And is Bosanski Samac on this map? Can you please point it out?

19 A. [Indicates]

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another map that has been

21 distributed to the Court and counsel this morning. It is entitled "Assess

22 Serbian Operational and Tactical Objectives." May that be given an

23 exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This map shall be marked P4.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I ask the usher to put this on the overhead

1 projector, please.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. May I have a word,

3 please?

4 My dear colleague, just tell me if your line of questioning would

5 be related to the military issues or doctrine, military doctrine issues.

6 I don't think that Mr. Donia is an expert for these kind of things. So

7 just a suggestion to see, because in that case we are objecting.

8 Mr. Donia is a historian, so he can speak about documents, about

9 the -- well, his impression of certain events, but he cannot obviously

10 speak about the manoeuvring, about the army, tactics, and all other

11 things. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: That is why you've been given the right to

13 cross-examine.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honour?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: It's one of the reasons why you've been given the

16 right to cross-examine.

17 MR. PANTELIC: That's the reason. That's the reason.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Is this now on the computer? Your Honour, may this

19 be displayed, please? It is. Thank you.

20 Q. Dr. Donia, can you explain what is depicted on this map?

21 A. Well, I think in -- let's say in very broad concept, with a

22 misspelling here, it shows the link between east and west that is not true

23 to the geographic situation, but it is an indication of a broad strategic

24 imperative that the JNA faced in 1992.

25 Q. Can you point out on this map where the Bosnian Krajina controlled

1 by Serbian forces and the Croatian Krajina controlled by Serbian forces

2 were at this time and how they were linked to Serbia?

3 A. What is the date of this map? I'm not --

4 Q. Well, let's -- let's presume in 1992. I'm not sure what the date

5 of the map is, but at that time in 1992, can you show the situation of

6 where Serbian forces were in the Croatian and Bosnia Krajina?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before that question is answered, because the

8 witness did say he wasn't sure, the copy with the Court shows edition

9 2GSGS, October 1992. So we don't know whether that is the year this map

10 was constructed. Is that correct?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct. The map indicates the source.

12 A. At this time - and this is the fall of 1992 - the Serb forces

13 controlled the area where I showed in the black and white map a moment

14 ago. That is on the Croatian Krajina side here. And they controlled

15 territory here and north of Bosanski Novi here. In Bosnia, by October

16 1992, they controlled the area from -- essentially from Banja Luka to the

17 west and south to about here. So something like this area here was the

18 area that they controlled.

19 Q. Dr. Donia, did this corridor, or Posavina corridor, have strategic

20 significance to the Serbian or particularly to the SDS authorities, and

21 what evidence is there that they placed strategic significance in this

22 corridor?

23 A. The significance of this Posavina corridor was first and foremost

24 to the JNA, but it also had vital significance to SDS leaders because it

25 was their link between the western-held territories and the Serbian

1 republic and also to the Serbian-controlled territories in Eastern

2 Bosnia.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a document that's been marked

4 on the Prosecution exhibit list C39. It's entitled "Decision on Strategic

5 Objectives of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina." May this

6 document be given an exhibit number?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Defence?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection to this

9 exhibit only as far as the translation is concerned. The original of this

10 document, the strategic objectives of the Serbian people, was given with a

11 copy of the Official Gazette, and there is a date that is when this issue

12 of the Official Gazette was published and the English translation only

13 bears the date of when it -- of its adoption. So I would like to have the

14 full translation entered into evidence as the exhibit.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I think you can deal with that, about what

16 the Defence counsel has pointed out.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't know if we have the Gazette, the entire

18 Gazette here. It's, I believe, a fairly lengthy document. My suggestion

19 is that counsel can put that in on his cross-examination or through other

20 witnesses, but all that is relevant right now to my examination of

21 Dr. Donia is the one document. I agree with counsel that it did come from

22 the Gazette.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but the date, because --

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: The date the Gazette was published?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Does that document in your hand have --

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: There is a date --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: It bears a date.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: -- of the decision -- the date it was -- of May the

4 12th, 1992. I think counsel's saying that this appeared in an Official

5 Gazette which obviously was published after that date.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can agree -- we can agree on this. Can

7 counsel tell the Court what date the Gazette bore?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the date on it -- I

9 cannot tell you exactly. I don't have the copy on me. I think it was

10 published about a year later, sometime in May 1993; in the original

11 document, that is. But could I provide it for you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can have it admitted subject to your

13 correcting the date, the date of the Gazette in which the document

14 appeared. So we can go ahead and have a number and have it as an

15 exhibit.

16 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked as Prosecutor's

18 Exhibit P5.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: May this exhibit be shown to the witness.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel, please.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: There are copies also to be distributed to the

23 Court and counsel.

24 Q. Dr. Donia --

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I proceed?

1 Q. First asking you about point number 1 of this decision. Does this

2 indicate -- it indicates demarcation of a state separate from the other

3 two national communities. Can you explain what your understanding is of

4 what that meant? What are the other two national communities?

5 A. I don't have the original, but this says "ethnic communities." I

6 assume it pertains to the Croatian and Muslim peoples.

7 Q. In the third point of the decision, can you -- it indicates that

8 the strategic objective is the establishment of a corridor -- excuse me,

9 in the second point, a corridor between Semberija and Krajina. What is

10 Semberija and Krajina? What corridor are we talking about there?

11 A. Well, Semberija, if I -- I still have my one map up here,

12 Semberija is off to the east of Brcko, off to the right of this map. So

13 the area of Semberija is east of the Posavina Corridor of which we have

14 been speaking, and the Krajina refers to the western territories which

15 were then under control of the Bosnian Serbs.

16 So this document, therefore, affirms, actually, a decision reached

17 earlier to set up a corridor for the purposes of linking those two eastern

18 and western territories.

19 Q. Dr. Donia, your report deals with the outbreak of hostilities in

20 the area of Bosanski Samac. And I'm not going to go over that. I do have

21 one other map I would like to have displayed and ask you to comment on

22 that, putting the attack on Samac in context with what was going on in

23 other areas of northern Bosnia?

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: May this map which is entitled "Outbreak of

25 Hostilities in 1992" be given a number?

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel?

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we have

3 received actually two pages of the document C39, and the other page has

4 nothing to do with the first page. It's just some sort of a letter from

5 Ministry of Defence to Secretariat of Banja Luka, Sanski Most, from May 2,

6 1995.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I only put in --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That is actually visible, even though we don't

9 know the language. You can see the titling is different. So can we

10 remove this paper?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Please. I only marked the one page.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I just --

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Because it gave us the impression that

15 this was the translation.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it was not the translation. It was concerning

17 the --

18 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone for the counsel.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: It is concerning the course and a veterinary exam,

20 something like that. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll hand the second page back to the Registry.

22 Before the number is given, any objection to this Outbreak of

23 Hostilities in 1992 map? I see no objections, so can we have the

24 numbers?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, we don't see the map. I'm sorry.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: It's on the screen, on the video evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: But counsel should also -- you have copies already?

3 Does counsel have copies already?

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. We received it yesterday, Your Honour, yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This map titled "Outbreak of Hostilities in 1992"

6 shall be marked as Prosecutor's Exhibit P6.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, we do have an objection to this map.

8 I'm sorry. I was just trying to find out which map was it with the TV.

9 Actually, we don't know exactly if those are the exact dates,

10 because we were never -- it was never actually -- can I talk in Serbian?

11 I'm sorry. It would be much easier for me.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. Because the interpreters are there.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The thing is, there are certain

14 dates on this map concerning alleged starting times for fighting in

15 certain places in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Until now, we have only been

16 familiarised with documentation. And, moreover, in a joint statement of

17 the Prosecution and the Defence, we accepted the 17th of April as the date

18 of commencement of hostilities in Bosanski Samac. As for these other

19 dates, we really cannot either confirm them or have any information as to

20 whether these dates are correct or not.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What counsel is, in fact, saying is that other than

22 Bosanski Samac, which is given 17th April, the rest of the places

23 mentioned -- the dates on the rest of the places mentioned were never

24 given to the Defence, and you can neither confirm, as you say --

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: You are seeing them for the first time.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: That is right, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, are we planning to deal with all these

4 other dates, or are we restricted to 17th April, Bosanski Samac?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: We are planning to deal with all the other dates.

6 I believe that the map, with the dates, was disclosed to the Defence

7 before. They don't have to agree to those days, but it is a matter of --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: At what stage was this map disclosed to the

9 Defence? When?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, yesterday.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps it's better if one of the attorneys that

12 were involved in the disclosure to answer that.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: To answer, yes. Yes.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm informed it was disclosed on the 17th of

15 February, 1998; four years ago.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Defence counsel?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: And, and, and, and admitted into evidence by order

18 of the Court, the Chamber --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The pre-trial --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: -- the Pre-Trial Chamber in 1999. So it's a long

21 time ago. But it's been given, and that might account for the fact

22 that --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I would like to know if all other Defence

24 counsels have had this map with all the places, the dates. Because if

25 they are common, then that means counsel may have missed this

1 particular --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may also add, apparently it's been disclosed

3 not once, but three times.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. Maybe you have an explanation.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. I think we can very easily

6 resolve this matter. All these dates are to some extent -- yes, sorry.

7 Madam President, speaking about the dates, you can imagine that the other

8 dates might be a matter for interpretation and, I would say, agreement

9 between two parties in other cases. I particularly don't see any

10 problem. Maybe our learned colleague could provide us with the

11 non-disputed facts; for example, if he is speaking about Prijedor, from

12 Prijedor case, or let's say Bijeljina or Brcko, and the other cases. So

13 we could move on. I mean, it's not some important thing to waste time

14 about it, so in due course we could arrange that and inform accordingly

15 this Honourable Trial Chamber. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel who placed the objection, is that

17 satisfactory to you?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, just for the record, I got this

19 map disclosed yesterday. For the first time I have seen this in the

20 documents. Actually, the situation is that I got into this case on

21 August 9, 1999. It might happen that there is some misunderstanding

22 between me and the former counsel. I cannot exclude that, and I'm sorry

23 if I caused trouble. But still, I got this map introduced yesterday. But

24 in order to -- efficiency of these proceedings, I will accept this

25 solution that my learned colleague offered.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think it's better. Then we can move on, and

2 then if you have any evidence later on --

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm satisfied with that.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN:

6 Q. Dr. Donia, does this map indicate that the attack on Samac

7 occurred in fairly close proximity to attacks on other towns in Bosnia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Are you familiar with course of events that occurred particularly

10 in Northern Bosnia regarding attacks by Serb forces?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you explain how those attacks related time-wise, what the

13 relationship was time-wise between those attacks?

14 A. Well, I think that the word "takeover" is better than "outbreak of

15 hostilities," which the map is, in my view, not accurately entitled. But

16 the attacks on takeovers of these northern Bosnian towns all took place

17 within about 40 days, one town at a time, essentially.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Following the Court's

19 instructions, I believe the other materials are covered in the report.

20 Thank you for Your Honours' patience.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Cross-examination. Any

22 cross-examination? Before we start, I would like to know whether -- how

23 many Defence counsels are going to cross-examine the witness, or whether

24 you've agreed that only one will cross-examine on behalf of everybody,

25 since the evidence of the witness covers the whole scenario.

1 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Madam President. Could we have just a few

2 seconds to consult?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, in order to speed up proceedings,

6 we have decided to split in four. So each Defence team will have a

7 certain portion of the cross-examination, and we can go through.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So can we have the first counsel start,

9 please.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Baen:

11 Q. Good morning, Dr. Donia. My name is Catharine Baen. I think we

12 met yesterday. I am one of the lawyers for the Defence, obviously. I

13 represent, along with my co-counsel, Mr. Zecevic, the defendant Milan

14 Simic in this case.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. And I wish you good morning again and I hope that your family and

17 your friends are okay back in the States.

18 A. They are, and I wish you the same.

19 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

20 What I'd like to do right now is refer you to your C.V., which is

21 a portion of P1, I believe, Exhibit P1 for identification purposes. Have

22 you found that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And I don't know why we didn't go through this yesterday, but I

25 want to go over it for just a second just to sort of get an idea of your

1 background and your experience and who you are.

2 I see that you worked for Merrill Lynch for about 20 years in the

3 financial industry. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, you started in Houston, Texas, which is my home. Isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And it shows here that -- I believe you retired or you quit

9 working for ^ Merrill Lynch in the year 2000, last year?

10 A. I retired last year, yes.

11 Q. And you're not working right now in the financial industry at all?

12 A. That's correct; I'm not.

13 Q. Okay. In fact, aren't you associated with or have formed some

14 foundation in California entitled the "Donia Vakuf Foundation"?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sorry?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I see on your C.V., Dr. Donia, that you speak several

19 languages. You speak Serbo-Croat. I don't speak Serbo-Croat. Being from

20 Texas, I barely speak English. So I didn't even know what kind of word

21 "vakuf" was, so yesterday I went to the official interpreter for the

22 Court and asked him what "vakuf" meant, and I was informed that it is some

23 sort of land. It's a Muslim word that has Turkish origins that has to do

24 with religious land; is that correct?

25 A. Its origin, actually, is Arabic. And in --

1 Q. Hold on just one --

2 A. Ottoman --

3 Q. My question, actually is the word. The origin, yes, Turkish,

4 Arabic. My question is: Is it a word that Muslims use designating

5 certain lands for religious purposes, to make it easier for you?

6 A. It means a foundation. And the resources that make up a

7 foundation of a vakuf can be land; they can be some sort of fund; they can

8 be a shop, or any other income-producing economic entity.

9 Q. Okay. Just so we're clear, though, I've looked in the dictionary

10 also, and the definition I received, the Muslim definition: Heritage for

11 general, religious, and humanitarian purposes, with the aim to build and

12 uphold mosques, schools, public libraries, hospitals, et cetera.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I see counsel for the Prosecution on his feet.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I object to counsel testifying to the Court. If

15 she has questions for the witness, she may do so, but I believe she is

16 offering opinion testimony that I don't get a right to cross-examine her

17 on, or the dictionary.

18 MS. BAEN: Your Honour, may I respond?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel.

20 MS. BAEN: I believe -- I mean, I'm asking questions that may be

21 too long, but in cross-examination I'm giving him the information. I'm

22 going to ask him whether he agrees or doesn't agree with it. And the

23 dictionary is -- dictionaries are something that are objective

24 criteria -- objective forms of information. So I'm just asking him

25 questions about the terminology that's generally known.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, as long as you stick to what is relevant. I

2 know that counsel can challenge the witness on anything that is in the

3 report, including the C.V., but we better move to what is relevant.

4 MS. BAEN:

5 Q. Anyway, I don't want to belabour this at all. Just the point is,

6 right now, since you've retired, you've formed a foundation that has this

7 word that Muslims use to designate certain land; fair enough?

8 A. Well, no. That's not the -- I, first of all, don't know of any

9 language called Muslim, so I don't know what dictionary you acquired the

10 word from.

11 Q. Just for your information, it's "Vocabulary of Foreign Words and

12 Expressions," Prosveta, 1970. Also another dictionary. I can't pronounce

13 the word. B-r-a-t-o-i-t-u-b-k-l-a-i-c, dated 1982.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. But, Counsel, why are we wasting so much time

15 on this? Because we all know that language evolves --

16 MS. BAEN: Yes, Your Honour. I'll go on.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: -- the use of terms changes --

18 MS. BAEN: I'll move on.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Especially in the last three years.

20 MS. BAEN: I'll move on, Your Honour.

21 Q. The whole point I'm just trying to make - we will move on - is:

22 This is not an English word. Okay?

23 A. That's right; it's not an English word.

24 Q. And the purpose of your foundation is what?

25 A. The purpose of the foundation is to assist educational, academic,

1 and humanitarian activities in the former Yugoslavia.

2 Q. And recently you have helped some organisation preserve Bosniak

3 literature in Sarajevo; is that not correct?

4 A. No, that's not correct.

5 Q. The organisation spelled C-u-p-r-i-j-a?

6 A. Cuprija is the name of a group of librarians in the United States

7 and the former Yugoslavia who are working to reconstitute the collections

8 of the national and university library in Sarajevo. It has nothing to do

9 with Bosniak literature.

10 Q. So if the web page for that organisation says that's what they're

11 doing, is trying to protect collections of Bosniaca, then that's not

12 correct?

13 A. Well, you misinterpret the word "Bosniaca." "Bosniaca" was the

14 term developed after the destruction of the national and university

15 library in 1992, as in -- it was taken after the form Judaica or whatever,

16 to characterise all works that were in that library.

17 Q. Okay. So my first question, my question, "Did you help this

18 organisation," the answer is yes, then?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 While we have your C.V. out, I'd like for you to please turn to

22 the section about your prior testimony before this Tribunal, your prior

23 expert testimony.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And before we move into that, if someone asked you what sort of

1 expert you're designated as here for your testimony, is it as an expert in

2 history of the area or are you an expert in the history and the military

3 strategy?

4 A. Well, I identify myself as, and I believe the Court looks at me

5 as, a historical expert on all aspects of history.

6 Q. So you are considered to be an expert in military strategy of the

7 area as well?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: The question can't be answered. It depends on who

9 is considering it.

10 JUDGE SINGH: That's a different question on strategy.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: A historian can study what happened, how the

12 military was moving and all that, so he need not be a military expert

13 himself.

14 MS. BAEN: That's why I was asking.

15 Q. So you're not?

16 A. I'm a historian, and there's a great deal of military strategy

17 that makes up history. And I've written on some of that and studied some

18 of it, and of course over a very long period of time, from, you know,

19 Middle Ages forward, but it certainly is a part of history.

20 Q. Okay. Looking at your C.V., it looks as though you were involved

21 in three different cases in front of the Tribunal dating back to 1997. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how many hours would you say you spent being involved in all

25 your work here in the Tribunal for the Prosecution?

1 A. Oh, it's hard to say. I couldn't give you an estimate really of

2 hours.

3 Q. Hundreds? Thousands?

4 A. Oh, something -- maybe several hundred would be close, but

5 something like that, yes.

6 Q. And in these three different cases in which you were involved, you

7 testified in one, correct, the Blaskic case?

8 A. I testified in the Blaskic case, and I testified in the Kordic and

9 Cerkez case.

10 Q. So you testified in Court in all three cases?

11 A. No. I did not testify in Court in the Kvocka case.

12 Q. And going through these cases, the Blaskic case, that involved a

13 Croat, is that correct, the defendant?

14 A. Yes, it did.

15 Q. And the Kordic case also involved a Croat defendant; isn't that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the last case you mentioned, the Prijedor case, that involved

19 Serb defendants; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And so you have never testified in any of them -- the Muslim

22 Prosecution here before the Tribunal [sic]; is that correct?

23 A. That's right. Never been asked.

24 Q. That's correct, you've never been asked; right?

25 A. That's correct.

1 Q. Okay. I think we can leave your C.V. -- or your report for a

2 moment and move to just a general but very brief conversation about your

3 expertise as an historian in this area. You got your Bachelor's degree in

4 history back in 1967; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And I myself got my Bachelor's degree in history, as well as my

7 co-counsel, before I went to law school. And I remember - and I don't

8 know if you'll agree with me - that back when you're studying history and

9 when you study the discipline or art of history, sometimes there are a lot

10 of arguments about opinions on certain events. Is that not correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact, that's sort of the whole gist of history, is you gather

13 as much information as you can about a certain topic and then you analyse

14 it and you come up with your own opinion; is that not correct?

15 A. Ideally that would be the way the process works, yes.

16 Q. And there are very well-respected historians in many areas who

17 have completely differing opinions about events and their causes; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But the idea is to get as much information as possible; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Looking at your -- actually, let's look at P1 again, your report.

23 We don't even have to look at it. As I looked at it, I found that there

24 were 178 footnotes in your report. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And in looking through those and analysing them with my

2 co-counsel, we found that of those 178 footnotes, 7 came from Serbian

3 authorities, 6 came from Serbian newspapers, compared to 65 that came from

4 Muslim and Croatian authorities, and 25 newspaper articles from one

5 newspaper from Sarajevo during the wartime, and 13 documents supplied to

6 you by the Tribunal. Is that not correct?

7 A. Well, you're better than I am at assigning ethnicity to the

8 authors of those works and documents. I couldn't attest to the ethnicity

9 of all those publications or papers.

10 Q. That's fair enough. But would you argue with me that that's

11 incorrect? Would you assume with me that that is correct?

12 A. No, I wouldn't.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: The question isn't clear. He indicated he did not

14 know the ethnicity.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Would counsel be on your feet, please, if you're

16 objecting.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. I'm sorry. I felt the question was

18 impossible to answer, because he indicated he did not know the ethnicity,

19 and then counsel asked him if he agreed with her.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. You have understood the objection,

21 I'm sure.

22 MS. BAEN: I do. I'll try to make it easier.

23 Q. Would you agree that the majority of the sources for your report

24 don't come from Serbian authorities?

25 A. I find it impossible to split the ethnicities in such a way to say

1 that. No, I couldn't say that.

2 Q. Okay. The same thing then. Let's turn to your book entitled

3 "Bosnia and Herzegovina: A Tradition Betrayed" that you wrote with John

4 Fine.

5 MS. BAEN: Your Honours would like me to have this marked, or may

6 I ask the witness questions about his book?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it is a book, you can ask questions even if

8 it is not yet marked. We will see whether or not it will be necessary.

9 MS. BAEN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Turning to your book and going to the bibliography of the time

11 period in question in this case, on page 295, the Bosnian war period --

12 and you wrote this book in 1994; correct?

13 A. 1993, 1994.

14 Q. It was published in 1994?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in looking in the sources -- actually, it looks like of all

17 nine sources, most of them are American sources. Is that not correct?

18 A. Yes. That bibliography contains only English-language sources. I

19 believe there is a note at the top that it is not intended to be a list of

20 sources but rather a -- basic readings on similar topics.

21 Q. For the Bosnian war period 1992 and on, it says. That's correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you leave the book, do you have a copy for

25 the Court, for the Registry?

1 MS. BAEN: You can have this copy, I guess. I only have one copy,

2 Your Honour, and I --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because, you see, the point is any document

4 discussed by a witness, even if given an ID number, it has to be kept by

5 the Registry.

6 MS. BAEN: That's fine. That's why I was asking the question if

7 you wanted me to have it marked and given to the custody of the Registry.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Now I see that it is necessary to have a ID.

9 That's why I'm asking do we have a copy for the Registry.

10 MS. BAEN: We can have this copy, Your Honour, and then if we need

11 to refer to it later in the trial, we'll just ask for the use of it.

12 So --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: But it will remain with the Tribunal.

14 MS. BAEN: Yes. Yes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay.

16 MS. BAEN: May I have this marked then, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. An ID number only, please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: This book shall be marked as ID1/1.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can proceed.

20 MS. BAEN:

21 Q. Okay. Let's get down to what this case is all about, and I won't

22 have many more questions for you at all. I know you'll probably be

23 disappointed.

24 Bosanski Samac. I'm wondering, have you ever visited the town or

25 municipality of Bosanski Samac?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you read the indictment with respect to this Prosecution,

3 Dr. Donia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you read that?

6 A. About May of this year.

7 Q. You were asked to be an expert in this case in May?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when did you compile your report?

10 A. Since then. Between May and, I guess, August 1st.

11 Q. Okay. Bosanski Samac. Turning to your report, paragraphs 161 and

12 162 of P1, please. This is the section with respect to ethnic cleansing,

13 is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And paragraphs 161 and 162, you are outlining and, I guess, sort

16 of summarising the special report to the UN by Mazowiecki; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And in paragraph 161, you state that:

20 "After visiting the region in August and October of 1992,

21 Mazowiecki and those accompanying him reported that `massive and

22 systematic violations of human rights' were underway in BH, conducted

23 principally in areas that were under Serbian control."

24 Is that what you stated in your report?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And then going on in paragraph 162, the term "ethnic cleansing" is

2 defined according to Mazowiecki's report, and you -- you refer to

3 different portions of the report where Mazowiecki went out into the

4 country, visited certain areas, monitored them, and determined whether or

5 not there had been ethnic cleansing; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And do you have a copy of Mazowiecki's report with you?

8 A. Not in the courtroom. I believe I have it with me in Holland.

9 Q. Okay. Well, I do have a copy of it.

10 MS. BAEN: Your Honours, also, I apologise. I don't know if this

11 was marked as a Prosecution exhibit earlier or if you'd like for me to get

12 another identification number for purposes of my cross-examination.

13 Whatever the Court would like for me to do.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the document called?

15 MS. BAEN: This is the UN report done by Mazowiecki that the

16 doctor refers to in his expert report.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I wonder whether the Prosecution -- whether it was

18 one of the documents dealt with on discovery. Is it?

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, but it hasn't been marked for court purposes.

20 It needs an ID number.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So, Counsel, you would like to examine the

22 witness on that?

23 MS. BAEN: Yes. I would like to have this marked for

24 identification purposes, Your Honour, please.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number? ID only, please.

1 THE REGISTRAR: This shall be Defence ID2/1.

2 MS. BAEN:

3 Q. In our document identified as 2/1, which is Mazowiecki --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Please always use the prefix "ID."

5 MS. BAEN: ID number.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so that the record shows that this is a

7 document which has just been identified, not produced.

8 MS. BAEN: Yes. I totally understand, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

9 Q. In our document ID number 2/1, which is the UN special report by

10 Mazowiecki -- since you don't have your report, I'm going to summarise.

11 And if you disagree with what I have to stay, then I'll know you'll let me

12 know.

13 What Mazowiecki does is he goes through many different areas in

14 the countries, as I mentioned earlier, and there's monitoring done and

15 there's a determination as to whether or not there's been ethnic cleansing

16 done; correct?

17 A. Yes. And he interviews a number of people in the region.

18 Q. Correct. As a matter of fact, he interviews a lot of people, and

19 he does in-depth interviews.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is there anywhere in this report that the municipality of

22 Bosanski Samac is mentioned?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In fact, to your knowledge, Bosanski Samac was not monitored by

25 Mazowiecki; is that correct?

1 A. I don't know. He certainly does not mention it in his report.

2 Q. Well, his report is very detailed, isn't it?

3 A. Yes. I think it's -- he highlights, I think, four or five places,

4 and Bosanski Samac is not one of them.

5 Q. Right. The town of Bosanski Samac is not mentioned and the

6 municipality is not mentioned; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. In fact, the only place that's mentioned in his report that's

9 geographically in the area of Bosanski Samac is - and I'm going to

10 probably say this wrong; I'm learning the languages - the camp in

11 Batkovic; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And as a matter of fact, in his report, he says that this

14 camp in Batkovic, which I believe is mentioned by the Prosecutors in

15 opening or in some documents in this case, contained approximately 1.000

16 Muslim prisoners at the time of the visit and that the prisoners did not

17 complain of ill-treatment and in general appeared to be in good health.

18 Is that what he said about the camp in Batkovic?

19 A. I don't have it in front of me. I'll certainly take your word

20 that that's in the report.

21 Q. I'll be happy to let you read it or -- would you like to read it?

22 A. I'd like to see the context in which it's discussed, yes.

23 Q. It's paragraph 29. And I have some more questions about that.

24 We'll continue. If you'll read the first part, and then I can get my copy

25 back because it's the only copy I have.

1 A. The paragraph 29 reads: "The camp in" --

2 Q. Sir, please let me ask the questions. You'll have a chance to

3 fully explain everything.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the witness read it.

5 MS. BAEN: That's fine, Your Honour. I just wanted to finish my

6 questioning.

7 A. "The camp in Batkovic contained approximately 1.000 Muslim

8 prisoners at the time of the visit, housed in two storage buildings. The

9 prisoners did not complain of ill-treatment, and in general, appeared to

10 be in good health. However, they sleep on straw bedding, on the floor of

11 cavernous, unheated buildings where living conditions will become

12 intolerable as cold weather arrives."

13 MS. BAEN:

14 Q. Okay. Can I have the document back, please?

15 Doctor, there's no mention of any beatings? Were there?

16 A. No.

17 Q. No mention of any sexual assault?

18 A. No.

19 Q. No mention of any killings?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let's go back to your book for a moment with respect to Bosanski

22 Samac. Is there any mention of Bosanski Samac in your book whatsoever?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And this strategic -- excuse me, "very strategic area" you

25 mentioned of the Posavina Corridor, is there any mention of the Posavina

1 Corridor in your book?

2 A. I believe there's a mention of the Posavina, but I don't know that

3 the corridor is addressed specifically.

4 Q. Well, shall we get out the index to look for Posavina to see

5 whether or not it's there?

6 A. It may be. I don't recall. It could be.

7 Q. If I told you I read the index and I didn't find Posavina anywhere

8 in there, would you accept that as true?

9 A. Yes, I would.

10 Q. Okay. In your PowerPoint presentation, there was a slide that you

11 prepared with the breakdown of the nationality in Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 in 1991, where you broke down the Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Yugoslavs, and

13 others; is that not correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you divided Bosnia and Herzegovina versus just the

16 municipality of Bosanski Samac; is that not correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you did this breakdown -- actually, when you're referring

19 to Bosanski Samac, you're talking about the municipality, not the town?

20 A. In the statistical population tables that I prepared both in the

21 PowerPoint presentation and in the report, the unit of analysis is

22 Bosanski Samac municipality.

23 Q. Exactly. So from reading the indictment, as you said you did, you

24 understand that most of the allegations in this case occurred in the town

25 of Bosanski Samac?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And you understand that the town is -- out of a total

3 population of almost 33.000 in the municipality, this little town is about

4 6.000 people, is it not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So when you did this breakdown for the whole municipality, when

7 you did the ratio of the ethnicities, that ratio doesn't necessarily

8 represent the breakdown for the town of Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. Okay. And so you have no idea -- I was going to talk to you about

11 the numbers in the breakdowns of the towns itself. But you have no idea

12 what that breakdown is, do you?

13 A. Well, I looked at it and recall that it was very mixed in the

14 town.

15 Q. You didn't really find it significant enough to put in a slide,

16 did you?

17 A. I chose not to put it in that slide because I was simply trying to

18 compare the single municipality to the overall Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. Okay. I understand that. I'm not trying to quarrel with you.

20 Just for some reason it just -- it's not in your PowerPoint presentation;

21 correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. So if I told you that there were a little over 2.000 Muslims in

24 the town itself, would you agree or disagree with that?

25 A. Well, I couldn't, without consulting a source, agree or disagree.

1 I would find it unsurprising, since the towns were frequently mixed and

2 the proportion of Muslims in that particular area is often quite urban.

3 Q. So if I told you that, you're not going to just totally disagree

4 with that or dismiss that idea; right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Where were you raised? Were you raised in a city or small town?

7 You were raised in Michigan; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you raised in a small town?

10 A. It was in the eye of the beholder, but it was Kalamazoo, Michigan,

11 a town of about, I guess, 50,000.

12 Q. Okay. So that's really not small. I mean, compared to -- I was

13 raised in a town about the same size of Bosanski Samac, a farming

14 community, and I consider that to be a small town. You would too,

15 wouldn't you?

16 A. Bosanski Samac?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you ever -- when you started preparing your expert opinion for

20 this case, did you ever -- since you hadn't been to Bosanski Samac, did

21 you have anybody go to the archives of Bosanski Samac to get information

22 for you so you could get accurate information about the town?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you never interviewed any witnesses with respect -- you never

25 interviewed any witnesses from Bosanski Samac, did you?

1 A. No.

2 Q. In fact, the -- several -- I dare say many of the witnesses in

3 this case were actually childhood friends and have grown up and worked

4 with these defendants in this case. Did you know that?

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I see counsel for the Prosecution --

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Counsel's arguing the case and not asking --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat your objection?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Counsel is arguing her case and not asking

10 questions of the historical expert. It's not a proper question.

11 MS. BAEN: It's cross-examination.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You see the point?

13 MS. BAEN: I'm almost done, Your Honour. I'm just testing his

14 knowledge of Bosanski Samac. And I think the point's been made, and I

15 will move on.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

17 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Never met any of the defendants in this case; you never

19 interviewed any witnesses; you've never been to Bosanski Samac?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And one more question before I sit down. I forgot to ask you:

22 When was this foundation, the Donji Vakuf foundation, founded? What

23 year?

24 A. I think it was 1997.

25 Q. And you did your report on this case -- you compiled it in June of

1 this year?

2 A. From the end of May until August 1st, yes.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MS. BAEN: I don't have any other questions, Your Honour. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: The next counsel, please.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Madam President, I will be

8 speaking and asking my questions in the Serbian language.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Donia, can we say that Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina, as a geographical concept, was defined even before the

12 arrival of South Slavs into this area?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you agree with me that within the group of South Slavs, as

15 you call them in your own work and which is an accepted term, there were

16 members of tribes of Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Bulgarians

17 and other peoples?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you also agree with me that the Serbs had their own state in

20 the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, and the fourteenth centuries?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we also agree that the Serbian Orthodox Church, as a Christian

23 church, was established in the thirteenth century, namely by Rastko

24 Nemanjic, the patriarch?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. In your presentation, you stated that during the rule of Tsar

2 Dusan, the Serbian Empire comprised also parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Would you agree with me that with the expansion of the empire, the

5 Serbian Orthodox Church expanded as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can we now also agree that even at that time, the Serbian nation

8 came into being in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Many scholars would argue that that is the case. My own feeling

10 is it depends largely on what one uses as a definition of nation, Serbian

11 nation, and depends on the specific evidence being accused for that.

12 Q. Could we then say that it was then, for the first time, that the

13 awareness appeared with the members of the South Slavs, who accepted the

14 Orthodox Church as their own religion, the awareness that they were

15 Serbs? Would it be true to say that they felt as Serbs back then, if for

16 no other purpose than for the sake of the privileges that gave them?

17 A. We don't know much about the extent of that identity, but I would

18 say that for some people, many people, yes. The answer is yes, a Serbian

19 consciousness did exist at that time.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

21 You mentioned the Bosnian Church. Could we agree - and I don't

22 see why we should not - that the Bosnian church was also a Christian

23 church?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I think there is no reason why we shouldn't also agree that Islam

1 appeared in the Balkans, and especially in the area of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina and Macedonia, in the fifteenth century, and perhaps even

3 later, but let's make it fifteenth century.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In the part in which you talk about the Ottoman Empire, is it true

6 that a lot of administration and a lot of soldiers arrived who were in

7 power while not being of Slav origin?

8 A. I think that depends on the area.

9 Q. In which way?

10 A. It was -- there was very little of that in the geographic area of

11 present-day Bosnia. There was some. And I think more non-Slavic soldiers

12 and administrators arrived basically to the more eastern areas of the

13 Ottoman Empire, Eastern Balkans.

14 Q. Can we agree that on the territory of the present-day

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, at the time when the Ottoman Empire conquered this

16 territory, Serbs and Croats populated it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could we agree that only Serbs constituted the population there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But just a moment ago you said that Serbian awareness existed even

21 then, during Tsar Dusan and the ascent of the Serbian church. Would it be

22 true to say that at least partially Serbs constituted the population, at

23 least in those areas which fell under the empire of Tsar Dusan?

24 A. Well, if you're talking about Tsar Dusan, that's -- I thought you

25 asked there a question about the Ottoman Empire and its conquest of the

1 area Bosnia at the time of the conquest.

2 Q. Yes. My question -- my last question was precisely that. And now

3 in your answer you say that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbs and Croats

4 were not the population. I'm now asking you which of the nations, the

5 peoples, the tribes from the group of south Slavs did populate this area.

6 A. I don't believe --

7 Q. And excuse me. You answered that those were Serbs, Croats,

8 Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and so on. Which of those five or

9 six peoples did populate the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. I think you'll see in my paper that I indicated that the tribal

11 character of the peoples who migrated -- it lost its tribal character in

12 that time. May I answer, sir? May I answer your question? And

13 consequently, to assume the continuity from the sixth or eighth century

14 until the fifteenth I don't believe is a necessarily a valid assumption.

15 Q. It is precisely because you claim in your presentation that on the

16 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the Middle Ages, Serbs and Croats

17 did not live. That is precisely the reason for my question. You are

18 trying to tell us that some people were living there without any national

19 identity. South Slavs is not a national identity, in our eyes. In that

20 group of south Slavs that arrived first, there were more narrow groups

21 which had all the markings of nationhood.

22 Just one more thing: You also said - and I would just like you to

23 confirm this, if we can agree on this - that Serbs migrated into parts of

24 Vojna and Bosnian Krajina, Bosanska Krajina.

25 A. I would not specifically agree with your formulation. It's clear

1 that the people who migrated to the Vojna Krajina and the Bosnian Krajina

2 were Serbian Orthodox migrants. They are viewed by many scholars as

3 having been Wallachs. The Habsburg decree regularising their status is

4 called the Wallach decree. I don't propose to resolve that question of

5 identity. I don't know. But there is no unanimity on the fact that they

6 would be Serbs.

7 Q. I wonder if we are going to agree on this now. Is it true that

8 the term "Wallachs" was a common term among Croats for Serbs, and also

9 among Bosnians relating to Serbs, back then and perhaps to this day?

10 A. Perhaps more to this day than back then. I think the term had a

11 much more broad application at the time that the migrations took place,

12 because some of the Wallachs were -- or supposed Wallachs were Catholics.

13 So it isn't clear that those terms, "Wallach" and "Serb," are synonymous

14 or were synonymous at that time.

15 Q. Who called Catholics Wallachs? I don't know this.

16 A. Well, the -- there's a whole literature on the question of who the

17 Wallachs were. I'm trying to think of who has addressed that question

18 specifically. It's principally Ottoman historians who deal with their

19 identity, and I can't give you a name right now, but many scholars will

20 take the position that Wallachs developed a national identity based on

21 their religious affiliation in the course of the nineteenth century.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, it's 11.00. It's 11.00. Can we take our

23 break? We shall resume at 11.30 hours.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination is continuing.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Donia, since we couldn't agree whether these were the Serbs

4 who were being settled in the area of Vojna Krajina, can we say at least

5 that they were Christian?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did the Ottoman administration, which consisted of Vezirs

8 [phoen], Beys, Pashas, Agas [phoen], and members of the Islamic religious

9 community, implement certain zulum, as we call it locally, which means

10 certain taxes and other things?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After the first Serbian uprising in 1804, did Serbia become one of

13 the carriers of the idea of liberation among the people of south-eastern

14 Europe who were under the Ottoman rule?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Would it be fair to say that the Serbian people in the Nevesinje

17 uprising in 1875 delivered the coup de grace to the Ottoman Empire in the

18 Balkans?

19 A. No, I wouldn't say that was a coup de grace to the Ottoman Empire

20 in the Balkans. It set in motion a train of events which led to the

21 transfer of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Ottoman to Austrian control.

22 Q. We know about the Berlin Congress and all that. What was the

23 contribution, then, of this great uprising, which is known as the

24 Nevesinje uprising, in acceleration of these processes?

25 A. If I may just take issue with the label. It's called the Bosnian

1 uprising in the Serbian literature, and it was -- it served to highlight

2 the inadequacy of Ottoman administration in that part of the world, and

3 particularly the tensions at that time between Ottoman rule and the status

4 of the Christian peasants in Bosnia.

5 Q. Was the status of Christian peasants in Bosnia difficult, hard?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. With annexation of Bosnia by Austro-Hungarian Empire, those

8 who -- both the Muslims and Serbs remained dissatisfied with it and, so

9 far as I know, they joined forces to try to resist this by taking up

10 arms. Is that correct?

11 A. Again, I think you're referring to the occupation, not the

12 annexation. The occupation was 1878. The annexation was 1908. And at

13 the time of the occupation in 1878, yes, you're correct; the Bosnian

14 Serbian Orthodox or Serbs, whatever you wish to call them, and Muslims,

15 combined --

16 Q. That's exactly what I was referring to.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In your report, you mentioned Petar Petrovic Njegos, the bishop,

19 and can we agree that he, in addition to being the ruler of Montenegro,

20 was also a priest; that is, a bishop?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can we agree that he was a man of letters, that he was a

23 philosopher, a thinker?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I hope that we will also agree that by nationality, he was

1 Montenegrin.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your report, you stated that in the "Mountain Laurel," there

4 is -- that it has the character of Serb patriotism. In addition to that,

5 can we agree that this was a literary work whose author is a priest who is

6 Christian, who is trying to defend Christianity against Islam, which had

7 spread in that area?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I hope that you will agree with me that it is an obligation of a

10 man of church to defend his own faith from the influence of other faiths.

11 A. That would be a judgement I would not want to make.

12 Q. Because the Ottoman Empire stayed the most in the area of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina, would you agree with me that with the emergence of Serbia

14 and Montenegro as Christian states, some of the population from those

15 states migrated to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you agree with me that the word "Muslim" in Arabic means a

18 member of Islamic faith?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also mentioned the young Bosnia, or mlada Bosna, and you said

21 that its members were young Serbian intellectuals. Do you know that there

22 were also Muslims and members of other ethnic groups among the members of

23 this group?

24 A. Yes, there were a few.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Does the name Mustafa Golubovic mean

1 anything to you? He was tried together with Gavrilo Princip and other

2 accused after the assassination of 1914.

3 A. I know him only by name, yes; only that he was one of the

4 defendants.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you.

6 Can we agree that in 1918, the kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and

7 Slovenes, the so-called SHS kingdom, the constituent peoples brought in

8 their national identity rather than territory and that it was only Serbia

9 and Montenegro who also contributed their statehood?

10 A. What do you mean by "statehood"?

11 Q. That they had been independent states before the creation of the

12 kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we agree that in the kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes,

15 within its borders there were no internal borders?

16 A. There were administrative borders. Yes, there were administrative

17 borders internal to the state.

18 Q. I know very well when the banovinas were formed, but I'm talking

19 about the very inception of that kingdom. And I know that the banovinas

20 were named after rivers and so on, but we can come to that later.

21 A. Well, even in 1918 to 1929, there were internal boundaries, yes.

22 Q. Between which entities?

23 A. Bosnia and Herzegovina was defined as an administrative unit in

24 the constitution of 1921.

25 Q. That was in 1921. I'm asking you in 1918. Let's say between 1918

1 and 1921, were there any internal borders?

2 A. I think maybe we're confusing the term "internal borders," because

3 the national government of Bosnia and Herzegovina did function in that

4 period as an administrative unit and continued to do so after 1921. I

5 don't want to suggest that that boundary between Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 and the Serb or Croatian territories was an international boundary. It

7 was not. But it was a designated administrative unit.

8 Q. No. Excuse me. That is not my question. I know what

9 international borders are of the kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.

10 My question to you was whether within these international borders, were

11 there any other borders until the banovinas were introduced in 1921 or

12 1922, or whenever they were formed.

13 A. Excuse me, but can you tell me what you mean by "borders" or

14 "boundaries"?

15 Q. Let's say something like this: What were the borders of

16 Macedonia, if they existed, in 1918? Can you tell me, "This is where the

17 border was and Macedonia brought in this," or you say, "Slovenia, there

18 are the borders and this is the territory they brought into the union, and

19 Croatia," and so on?

20 A. I think for Macedonia the answer is no, one cannot do that because

21 those territories were acquired by Serbia in the Balkans in the wars. But

22 in the case of Slovenia and in the case of Herzegovina, yes, one can.

23 Q. Now, let's move to the administrative division into banovinas.

24 Can you tell us in which of the banovinas Bosanski Samac was?

25 A. I don't recall. It was on the -- it was right at the intersection

1 of the three, but it was in -- I think it was the -- I don't recall.

2 Q. It cannot be on the boundary. It has to be part of one of them.

3 It is true that this was at the border of three banovinas. But since you

4 mentioned it -- and for the record, let me suggest to you - and maybe you

5 can agree on this - that it was in the Drina banovina.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You touched on demographics a bit. Based on that, can you agree

8 with me that according to the census - and let's start with the early ones

9 in 1878, 1895, 1910, and the ones taken by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and

10 then the socialist Yugoslavia - that the Serbs were the most numerous

11 nation in Bosnia and Herzegovina until the census of 1970?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let me ask you one more question based on your testimony this

14 morning. Do you agree that the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army, or at

15 that point the Yugoslav army, for the most part had left the territory of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 19th and 20th of May?

17 A. No.

18 Q. In your opinion, how long did the Yugoslav army stay in the

19 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. The -- in my view, the troops of the units and the vast majority

21 of the weaponry remained through until 1995 and simply underwent a name

22 change in May of 1992.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] That is all. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The next counsel, please.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Donia, my name is Novak Lukic, and I will ask

3 you questions on behalf of the Defence of the accused Miroslav Tadic. It

4 will be a very few questions.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before I ask questions, with the

6 permission of the Trial Chamber and regarding the objection I lodged

7 regarding the exhibit C39 - and I don't know exactly how it was marked by

8 the Registry - in case Mr. Donia does not dispute the date when this

9 decision was adopted, I will withdraw the objection.

10 I have in front of me a copy of the Official Gazette. And under

11 number 386, this is the decision on the strategic objectives of the

12 Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina for which it is stated that it

13 was adopted on the 11th of May, 1992, and it is the same in the English

14 version which is numbered 815457.

15 I would just ask that Mr. Donia be shown the copy and check the

16 date of 26 November 1993. And if he can state his view on this and if he

17 can confirm this, then I would withdraw my objection.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel is discussing a document marked P5,

19 Exhibit P5.

20 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

21 A. With simply one minor change. I think you mentioned the 11th of

22 May. That date was the 12th of May that the assembly approved these six

23 strategic objectives, according to this document, and I otherwise concur

24 with the Official Gazette here as it states it.

25 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

1 Q. Can we agree that the decision was published in November 1993, in

2 the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel for the Prosecution.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, just for the Court's information, I

7 believe the Gazette that was shown to the witness has not been marked. I

8 only marked the one page of the English translation. So the Court may

9 want to mark that also.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. You've got what the Prosecution is

11 saying?

12 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Yes. Of course I agree.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Because we only needed an agreement on the date when

14 it was you published, can we only have an ID number, please, because there

15 is no dispute.

16 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] Yes, the date of its publishing.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That shall be marked as ID1/3.

18 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Donia, in the evidence you gave yesterday, you mentioned the

20 propaganda of various parties when you were describing the backdrop of

21 World War II and its consequences to the subsequent period. What I'm

22 interested in is the form of the propaganda. What were the forms of this

23 propaganda?

24 A. Well, the propaganda that you're referring to as it appeared in

25 1990, 1991, in that period? Is that what -- your date of reference that

1 you're asking me about?

2 Q. Yes. I'm only asking about the forms of propaganda in that very

3 period.

4 A. Yes. There were various newspapers in which political leaders

5 gave interviews. There were what we would recognise as editorial

6 positions of some newspapers, a lot of speeches, even some placards and

7 radio and television appearances by various leaders which promoted these

8 viewpoints.

9 Q. Did all three sides use such propaganda? When I say "three

10 sides," I mean the three groups in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 A. The three national parties, yes.

12 Q. I noticed in your report that you mentioned as a source the daily

13 newspaper Oslobodjenje on 25 different occasions. Is that right?

14 A. That's about right, yes.

15 Q. Do you know a person named Hasan Cengic?

16 A. I don't know him personally. I know the name.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in September 1991, he started

18 acquiring weapons for Bosnia and Herzegovina through certain state organs

19 of Slovenia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does the name Mate Boban mean something to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know the fact that on 27 December 1991, there were

24 discussions with President Tudjman about a plan that an area comprising of

25 650.000 Croats be annexed to Croatia after having been proclaimed a

1 separate entity?

2 A. Yes, I am.

3 Q. However, you did not find it useful to include these two facts in

4 your report.

5 A. I included the Herzegovinian -- Herceg-Bosna separatist

6 declaration of 17 November 1991, did not reference the precedental

7 transcript of the 27th of December, 1991. I did, in general, indicate

8 that there were arming efforts going on by all nationalist formations in

9 Bosnia in that period.

10 Q. You precisely described the discussions between Milosevic and

11 Karadzic regarding the arming, didn't you?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Just one more question. In your report, in paragraph 143, and in

14 your yesterday's testimony, you mentioned the speech delivered by

15 President Karadzic on the 15th of October, 1991 in the assembly house of

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina when he threatened with physical extermination. And in

17 your footnote related to this speech, you state that the presidents of

18 political parties were allowed to address the deputies in the assembly.

19 Do you know what Alija Izetbegovic stated before both houses of

20 the parliament on the 27th of February, 1991?

21 A. 27th of February, 1991? I'm afraid not, no.

22 Q. I will read this to you: "For the sovereignty of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina, I would sacrifice peace and -- I would never sacrifice

24 sovereignty for peace."

25 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

1 Honours.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The fourth counsel, if any. Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, Your Honours, after the very

4 extensive testimony of Mr. Donia about the historical points of view,

5 political points of view, I would suggest, and my line of questioning

6 would be focused only to the period covered by the indictment, 1991

7 October and mostly 1992, I'd say, at the end of 1992, the period of

8 political struggle in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then war and some other

9 events specifically related to the region of Samac.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

12 Q. But, Mr. Donia, just for the matter of clarification -- and the

13 record shows that you are not in Merrill Lynch company?

14 A. That's correct; I'm not. I'm not employed by Merrill Lynch.

15 Q. When you were at Merrill Lynch, you worked full time. You were in

16 quite significant positions, such as vice-president. You worked as a

17 financial consultant there. So my point is that you have worked there on

18 a full-time basis.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Good. On the other hand, you were committed to certain historical

21 research in Bosnia, and you performed these activities during your, I

22 would say, free time and to some extent as a hobby, working with some of

23 your friends from Bosnia, from America. Yes or no?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Thank you. In addition, we could agree, couldn't we, that you are

1 not a constitutional lawyer, you're not military expert, you're not a

2 public international law expert?

3 A. Yes, that's correct; I'm not.

4 Q. And also, we could agree that you've never been in Samac, as you

5 said this morning?

6 A. Yes, that's true.

7 Q. Have you visited the other area of Republika Srpska, the other

8 entity of Bosnia?

9 A. Yes, I have.

10 Q. Could you be so kind to tell us which area you visited?

11 A. I visited Banja Luka and Brcko and that kind of part of the

12 corridor there between the two areas.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia. Could you explain to us what was the

14 purpose of your visit of this area of Republika Srpska?

15 A. Well, I -- in the case of Brcko, I'd never seen one of the Sava

16 River communities and I just wanted just to see it and visit. And in the

17 case of Banja Luka, I went to a wedding.

18 Q. Yes. So if I understand well - you can correct me, of

19 course - you never performed any historical research or archive research

20 or interview, or you didn't conduct any interview with the relevant

21 political or military figures of Republika Srpska, of Bosnian Serbs in

22 particular?

23 A. I bought some books, acquired some books, and did not do any

24 interviews while I was there.

25 Q. But, Mr. Donia, you didn't visit any official archive of Republika

1 Srpska, parliament, Faculty of History, or military archive, or police,

2 stuff like that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Good. Thank you, Mr. Donia.

5 Mr. Donia, in your work -- in fact, it was the -- correct me if

6 I'm wrong.

7 MR. PANTELIC: It's paragraph 42 of Mr. Donia's report, Your

8 Honours.

9 Q. Speaking of the - at that time, in the middle of nineteenth

10 century - of the, I would say, national doctrine or goals of Serbian

11 nation, I repeat, in 1844, you, Mr. Donia, gave us quite interesting view,

12 your personal view regard to that document. Have you been in possession

13 or have you ever read this document with the title Nacertanije --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- of 1844?

16 Sorry. Your answer was yes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Great. Thank you so much. This is good. So does the name Franjo

19 Zah, F-r-a-n-g-o [sic], Z-a-h, mean something to you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us just briefly about Franjo Zah, who was he, what

22 he did.

23 A. Franjo Zah was an agent of the Polish emigration who came to the

24 area of the south Slav lands and visited first with Ljudevit Gaj in the

25 drafting of a memorandum or plan, programme, which called for the creation

1 of a south Slav state.

2 Q. Good. Now, could you tell me the relation between - of course, if

3 you know - between British foreign office and Duke Catarinski and this

4 agent Franjo Zah with regard to the idea of nacertanije and the policy of

5 Serbia in the mid of nineteenth century?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So you don't know that the British policy at that time at the

8 Balkans was to some extent, and I would say more or less similar with the

9 twentieth century, trying to prevent the influence of German and

10 Austro-Hungarian Empire at that time? That approach would be correct or

11 no?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Well, for your information, the policy of British foreign office,

14 through Duke Catarinski and his agent Zah was to establish a big Serbia at

15 that time, to have a community of south Slavs there, and to be a sort of

16 buffer for the influence of Germany and Austria/Hungary at that time.

17 This is a historical fact, and I'm very glad now that we too now are more

18 familiar with that.

19 Now my idea is to skip briefly, like in a time machine, to go to

20 1990, in the dome of the tragic events in Bosnia. 1990 was the year when

21 the national parties of Bosnia organised elections and then they took

22 certain positions in the government and the local communities too.

23 Mr. Donia, would it be correct to say that in former Yugoslavia

24 during the regime of Marshal Tito, as well as the period after his death

25 until the first multiparty elections in Bosnia in 1990, in general terms,

1 the principal of a national key was actually in the spot, in terms of the

2 relations, internal politics, institutions, and bodies in the whole of

3 Yugoslavia, with a rotation system, et cetera? Would it be correct to say

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In addition, would it be correct to say that in Bosnia, even more

7 than the rest of Yugoslavia, this principle was followed very strictly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And probably you are familiar with the provisions of constitution

10 of Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, I mean, prior to

11 1990.

12 A. Well, as you pointed out earlier, I'm not a constitutional

13 specialist, and so I'd have to say no.

14 Q. Just on that very limited issue, Mr. Donia, about the so-called

15 national equality key -- because you are very, very much familiar with the

16 political life and the recent history in Bosnia. Just I'm speaking about

17 the national key.

18 A. Well, I would agree that the national key was policy. As to the

19 constitutional aspect of it, I can't comment.

20 Q. Good. So are you familiar -- because why I'm asking you: You, in

21 your paragraph 95 of your report, you're speaking -- as well as 93 and

22 94. But 95 is my focus now. You are speaking in quite details about the

23 relations between ethnic groups in Bosnia at that time. You gave us a

24 picture about the atmosphere in former Yugoslavia.

25 So my idea and my next question would be: In your paragraph 95,

1 you said that three major groups - Serbs, Croats, and Muslims - demanded a

2 chamber of peoples. What did you mean by that, chamber of peoples?

3 Because in your report, you want to assist this Honourable Trial Chamber,

4 you want to assist the justice in general with your conclusions. And now

5 you are, it seems to me, trying to present that you are not so familiar

6 with these constitutions, but nevertheless you are mentioning these

7 issues. So give us further details about your point of view, of course,

8 about the constitutional picture in Bosnia at that time. Or we could

9 delete your three paragraphs. I agree with that too, if you want.

10 A. Well, if your question is what is a chamber of peoples, I can

11 address that issue, because it was an institution that existed in the

12 socialist period. And the composition of the chamber of peoples was of

13 the three primary nationalities - Serbs, Croats, and Muslims - and each of

14 those had designated numbers of deputies and they held the right to

15 essentially call into question any legislation that would -- that was

16 perceived by them to threaten the interests of one nation.

17 Q. Thank you very much. So we could summarise that the principle of

18 equality between three constitutive nations in Bosnia was in fact an

19 issue, was in fact a fact, was in fact the situation in Bosnia. Sorry.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Donia. Can you tell us, please: Do you

22 know something about the amendments to the Bosnian constitution in 1990?

23 Do you know -- do you have any information about that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that these amendments were enacted,

1 were adopted, by the Bosnian Assembly and that they got into force, they

2 were effective as of 31st July 1990?

3 A. There were two sets of amendments, one passed in 21st February and

4 the other passed on the 31st of July, each of them effective at the date

5 of their approval, yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Would it be correct to say that amendment numbered 70,

7 7-0, was in fact a constitutional framework for a chamber of people, of

8 all three constitutive people of Bosnia, where the main task of this

9 chamber was to protect the vital interest of each constitutive people in

10 Bosnia at that time and, in addition, to prevent over-voting one

11 constitutive nation, whoever it was at that time?

12 A. I don't have it in front of me and would want to look at that

13 specific amendment.

14 Q. Good. I have, by chance, but it is in Serbian language, so

15 Bosnian probably you cannot -- it cannot be of big help to you, but of

16 course we shall provide it indeed.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Can I read, Your Honours, just this small piece so

18 that Mr. Donia can give the answer about that?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You can only do that if you promise that you

20 are going to provide English translations to the Trial Chamber and to all

21 the parties.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. That's another problem, Madam President,

23 because sometimes -- well, during my practice here at the Tribunal, the

24 other party or Registry or Court management are not so willing to accept

25 the translation provided by the Defence, so they're always making a

1 double-check and another, I would say, second opinion. So this is a

2 matter that I would like to raise during a convenient period for the

3 Status Conference, just on these technical terms.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but then you have to accept that the Trial

5 Chamber can only accept official translation.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. Because we are not -- I mean, my

7 experience told me that the version of translation coming from Defence

8 were not recognised as official, so the question is whether we shall even

9 proceed. Or maybe we could make a summary of the document in a few words,

10 just to inform this Trial Chamber about it in general terms, allow the

11 content of document, and then to proceed with official office for

12 interpretation for you to --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I will allow you to ask the --

14 MR. PANTELIC:

15 Q. Just, Mr. Donia, a very -- I have a very --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: On the condition that you're going to provide the

17 translated copies later.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, but now I will introduce that as the

19 evidence. I have one copy for the Trial Chamber, and then I will

20 provide --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Translations later.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Or the Trial Chamber will make the direction.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

24 MR. PANTELIC:

25 Q. Mr. Donia, sorry. This is the, I would say, housekeeping matters

1 in terms of our proceedings, so I didn't want to take your time. Well, I

2 will now read in Serbian language:

3 "[Interpretation] In the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a council is hereby established to deal with the issue

5 of implementation of equality of the nations and nationalities of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina. An equal number of deputies shall be elected into the

7 council from the ranks of each of the nations of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina - Muslims, Serbs, Croats - and an appropriate number of

9 deputies from other ethnic groups or nationalities populating Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina. Decisions shall be made by a two-third majority of the total

11 number of deputies. Initiative for raising any issues before the Assembly

12 shall be valid if 28 or more deputies believe that a certain issue from

13 the competence of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina --"

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not a certain issue

15 but a certain piece of legislation falling within the competence of the

16 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 " -- could infringe upon the principle of equality upon nations

18 and nationalities."

19 MR. PANTELIC:

20 Q. Now, Mr. Donia, could we agree upon the fact that certain

21 mechanism of prevention of over-voting one constitutional nation in Bosnia

22 actually was fully in accordance with the constitution of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina; yes or no?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, in your paragraph 108 -- although I'm not

1 challenging actually, the paragraph and content of this paragraph. What

2 I'm asking you: According to footnote 88, you said that the source for

3 this information, which to some extent has some significant impact in the

4 atmosphere of this particular trial, meaning the issue of international

5 armed conflict, et cetera, et cetera -- so in your footnote 88, the only

6 source for this very serious crisis was a newspaper called, Slobodna

7 Bosna, Free Bosnia. And yesterday you told us that mostly you were

8 relying on these sources for various reasons. So my question is: Do you

9 have any other, I would say, more reliable source to say this is what was

10 said in paragraph 100? Sorry, 108.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honours.

12 Q. Or we are only dealing with the newspaper sources as a way to

13 establish an expert opinion?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 A. And I would --

17 Q. Mr. Donia, no.

18 A. -- point out that --

19 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

20 A. If I may re-read the statement --

21 Q. No, no. Thank you, Mr. Donia.

22 A. -- in the sentence --

23 Q. My question was very precise: Yes or no. Thank you. Let's go.

24 MR. PANTELIC: We have lot of thing to do, Your Honours, here, and

25 I really --

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for the Prosecution

2 MR. PANTELIC: -- respecting the time and we are late.

3 Q. So yes or no?

4 MR. PANTELIC: This is a cross-examination, Your Honours. It's

5 not examination-in-chief. I don't want to hear any kind of historical

6 forum or political forum --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic --

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: -- you are before the Court.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Madam President. Sorry.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: You are under the orders of the Court --

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: -- and the Court is here to control the proceedings.

14 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct. I absolutely concur with you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: If you see your counterpart on the floor, you stop

16 talking.

17 MR. PANTELIC: My mistake. Excuse me. My apologies to my learned

18 colleague from the Prosecution bench.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Prosecution, please.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't believe the question was clear. It wasn't

21 clear to me, and Dr. Donia was in the process of answering when he was cut

22 off. There were several questions, I believe, contained in counsel's last

23 remark he put to the witness.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, I will rephrase my question to be

1 more precise, if you allow me.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You rephrase your question and then allow the

3 witness to answer.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Donia, in light of the really shortage of time and in our

6 proceedings, please answer me with yes or no. Did you consult any other

7 reliable source than the source that you are referring in your footnote 88

8 in your report of paragraph 108? Please, yes or no?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Could you tell us which?

11 A. I listed the other sources that I looked at in this paragraph, and

12 the reason that that statement reads as it does is I simply state it was

13 later reported. I do not claim this to be a fact that I have concluded as

14 a verified piece of evidence. I simply recite the fact that it was

15 reported in this particular newspaper.

16 The other sources that I looked at were the memoirs of

17 Professor Kecmanovic, and there was a statement also regarding this in the

18 memoirs of Professor Pejanovic.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Donia. Now, in your paragraph 124, you are

20 speaking about the --

21 MR. PANTELIC: Well, frankly, Your Honours, I could not say that

22 Mr. Donia is speaking. He's trying to establish an interpretation which I

23 found that it's very dubious.

24 Q. For example, Mr. Donia, about the SAO district, the Serbian

25 autonomous district, could you tell us, please, to what extent your

1 knowledge as an historian is getting about the constitutional issues for

2 formation of local communities in the region, in the regional assembly, in

3 regional association of municipalities?

4 A. I'm sorry. I heard a couple of questions there.

5 Q. The question is: You're an historian. You're dealing to some

6 extent with some of the constitutional issues, constitutional law issues

7 here. So you visited many times Bosnia. You wrote two books at least, a

8 lot of articles. You participated in many of trials here, I think three

9 or two here within this Tribunal. So tell us, are you familiar with the

10 constitutional possibilities for municipalities to create a region in

11 Bosnia? Yes or no, simply.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So that possibility was absolutely provided and enacted in Bosnian

14 constitution. Yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you find then or could we agree that the Serbian --

17 association of Serbian municipalities at that time were fully in

18 accordance with the principle that we have just discussed?

19 A. No, they were not.

20 Q. Thank you. So could you give me a comment on the following. This

21 is the Article of 274 of Bosnian Constitution.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before you read the section --

23 MR. PANTELIC: Not all articles, just --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Of which year?

25 MR. PANTELIC: It is a Constitution which was in force in 1990 in

1 Bosnia.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: 1990.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

5 MR. PANTELIC: 1990 until 1992, actually when the armed conflict

6 was under-place.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

8 MR. PANTELIC:

9 Q. Speaking about the regionalisation, and then -- I will speak in

10 Serbian.

11 [Interpretation] [As read] Article 275: "For the purpose of

12 implementing a lasting cooperation, the municipalities whose territories

13 are interlinked or contiguous may join each other to establish urban or

14 regional communities. Those joined municipalities or those integrated

15 municipalities shall reach agreement to determine the types of affairs

16 which within their rights and obligations they shall entrust to the

17 community. They shall also establish common bodies, join resources, adopt

18 common plans for development, and conduct other affairs of common

19 interest.

20 "The conclusions and the positions of the communities obligate

21 municipalities to adopt them in the assemblies of joined municipalities."

22 [Previous translation continues]... [In English] in all your years

23 of research, are you been familiar with -- I'm speaking about the

24 territory of Bosnia. Have you been aware of this form of association in

25 your research, in your period of visiting?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Now, Your Honours --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel for the Prosecution is on his feet.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm just a little confused of how the Court plans

7 to treat these documents read by counsel. They're not marked, although I

8 presume counsel is reading the Constitution correctly. I don't know which

9 copy he has, and we don't ...

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's why I asked him for which year, and

11 then we will have it marked when he finishes with it.

12 MR. PANTELIC: My --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I did already tell him that on condition that he

14 gives the English translations as well.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. My suggestion would be to deal with these

16 technical issues after the testimony of this witness with regard to the

17 interpretation, translation, and other things. It's a technical issue, so

18 let's move on.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: But I'm ready to provide a copy for the Trial

21 Chamber, a copy for the Prosecutor bench, as well as, if necessary, for

22 Mr. Donia.

23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the -- yeah, this is interesting. Mr. Donia,

24 this is really interesting.

25 You know, speaking about -- about the parliamentary life in Bosnia

1 and also relation between Serbia at that time and Bosnia, we are quite

2 happy, Your Honours, to have two very important and key figures with us,

3 although in Detention Unit, Mr. Krajisnik, who was a speaker of Bosnian

4 parliament, and then Mr. Milosevic. Then probably on the basis of proprio

5 motu or maybe a joint request or maybe subpoena might be issued for the

6 certain persons and to give us more a profound, and I would say, direct

7 testimony, but that's another issue.

8 Mr. Donia, in your paragraph 143 of your report, you mentioned in

9 your first expression that: "... majority of Bosnian assembly delegates,

10 primarily from HDZ and SDA," being Croat and Muslim parties, "approved a

11 resolution proclaiming the `sovereignty'..."

12 My question, Mr. Donia, would be: Would this quotation of word

13 "sovereignty" of B and H, practically what did you mean by quotation of

14 word "sovereignty"?

15 A. That's the -- by putting it in quotes, I simply meant to suggest

16 that that's what it's typically called in all references that I've seen of

17 it, the resolution on sovereignty.

18 Q. Great. So we are not misunderstanding this grammatical form that

19 sovereignty with the quotation was used in sort of an ironic or maybe

20 similar term? It's not ironic. I mean, it's not kind of -- speaking

21 about sovereignty, you --

22 A. It's not satire, no.

23 Q. So, in fact, you're speaking about a real sovereignty, real

24 document, about real issue sovereignty, or you have some doubts about

25 that?

1 A. I allude to the title of the resolution, and that's what I mean to

2 do in this sentence.

3 Q. Without concluding that this is sovereignty in terms of public

4 international law or doctrine of public international law? So you just

5 make a reference to the declaration of sovereignty of B and H, sort of,

6 say, for the local use, for internal use?

7 A. Well, let me be clear. I do not suggest or imply that this is a

8 conclusion that I reach on the basis of international law. I simply here

9 refer to the common title by which this resolution is known and of which

10 you gave me the correct date yesterday.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Donia. And then in paragraph 144, you

12 are speaking about the Assembly of Serbian People of B and H. Could we

13 say that the same applies to this body, meaning Serbian Assembly?

14 A. Same what?

15 Q. Same approach. You said that with quotation of "sovereignty," you

16 were referring to the declaration of sovereignty as it is, without getting

17 any conclusions insofar. So the same approach would be applied for the

18 word or for the name "Assembly of Serbian People of B and H" --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- as a factually.

21 A. I used the term here in the same -- I used the quotation marks

22 because it's the first time in this paragraph that I introduce this

23 title.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Donia. Good.

25 Now, Your Honours, and, Mr. Donia, we are in paragraph 148. We

1 have again quotation marks for the word "preparations" now. Why is that?

2 "Preparations." "Preparations" meaning what? Is this sort of

3 institution or sort of process or undisputed fact? Could you explain us

4 now these quotation marks in paragraph 148?

5 A. My reference note 136 here and --

6 Q. Can I -- do you need the --

7 A. No. I'm simply quoting --

8 Q. Footnote 136. Yes.

9 A. -- the resolution of the Serbian Assembly as it appeared in the

10 newspaper Oslobodjenje, in my translation, and I will grant you that is

11 not an authorised Tribunal translation.

12 Q. Yeah, but still, you didn't answer my question. Word

13 "preparation" with quotation marks following the, I would say, same

14 practice with the previous two, could we consider as a fact or a quotation

15 from the newspaper or maybe your expert opinion? Tell us, please.

16 A. Well, the newspaper carried the text of the resolution, so this

17 would be a one-word excerpt from the newspaper publication as it appeared.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Donia, let us deal with the paragraph 154 of your

19 report. In particular, I would like to make reference to again quotation,

20 but now with italic letters, "prepare to take-over." Serious issue.

21 Could you tell us, what does it mean?

22 Did you find this, I would say, a process, or did you find, let's

23 say, traces of these activities in this so-called plan A/B, or it's just

24 your personal assumption or conclusion?

25 A. The phrase that I've quoted here, "prepare the take-over," I quote

1 from and it is italicised in the document.

2 Q. In the document. I do believe, and my colleagues can confirm,

3 that we have a very detailed check of this document. There is no such

4 word in the document.

5 But now, just as a matter of clarification, in paragraph 158 --

6 A. Excuse me. That statement was just made, and it's not accurate.

7 The document on page 6 in my translation carries in italics "prepare the

8 take-over of staff and selected equipment of security service centres," if

9 it please the Court.

10 Q. No. We don't have this.

11 Now, let's speak, Mr. Donia, about your assumption in paragraph

12 158. It seems to me that there are some, well, misinterpretation in

13 translation.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, it is not so serious issue. It's

15 rather -- I don't know. In Serbian language, the word "shooting," which

16 is -- "... ostensibly in protest against the shooting of a Serb at wedding

17 ..." I don't know.

18 What is the name in Serbian version of -- to the best my

19 knowledge, in Serbian version that was "wounding," wounding of a Serb at

20 the Serb wedding.

21 And then "shooting," just as matter of qualification, what was

22 that, killing, shooting, wounding, or something else?

23 A. He was killed.

24 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

25 Let's go to the other paragraph. Good. It's interesting.

1 Paragraph 166. You said in your paragraph: "The importance of conquest

2 and cleansing became starkly evident in the peace agreement that ended the

3 Croatian war signed on 2nd January," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

4 "The territorial division followed closely the lines of confrontation and

5 interposed UN peacekeeping forces between the rival military forces while

6 providing for a reversal of ethnic cleansing only at the future date," et

7 cetera, et cetera.

8 Now, Mr. Donia, we are facing a very serious international law

9 issue. You speak -- you're speaking in your paragraph 166 about the

10 position of UN peacekeepers, about the former policy -- of the policy of

11 former Secretary of State, Mr. Vance, and then about the peace agreement

12 between Croatia, and war.

13 To some extent, you are trying to present a conclusion about the

14 ethnic cleansing in relation with the actions of UN peacekeepers and other

15 parts of the ethnic community. So my question is --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the question is posed, counsel for the

17 Prosecution.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: If I could just ask the Court if the Court could

19 direct counsel to ask questions rather than -- he can argue Dr. Donia's

20 qualifications at a proper time, at the end of the case, but these were

21 all arguments prior to - I see counsel's about to ask a question - but

22 prior to this point.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: He's --

24 MR. PANTELIC: No, my dear colleague. I just want to save the

25 time of this Trial Chamber. So I'm not reading all the paragraph. I'm

1 just referring to certain relevant parts, and then I will -- I'm trying to

2 establish my question.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay, Mr. Pantelic. Please go ahead.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

5 Q. Regarding your, I would say, theory in this paragraph 166, would

6 it be fair to say that the same theory or same approach, your professional

7 personal approach, would be applied to a case of Cyprus, where we have two

8 divided community under the supervision of UN peacekeepers? So my

9 question is: This situation and your idea in this paragraph, could it be

10 like to the case of Cyprus? Yes or no?

11 A. I haven't thought about it. I'm not certain. I couldn't give you

12 an answer right away.

13 Q. Now, you are speaking about Samac area. You told us today and

14 yesterday that you've never been in Samac, you never consulted Republika

15 Srpska archives, you have never consulted your colleagues, Serbian

16 experts, or, you know, question -- the person in question, et cetera. And

17 still, you are speaking about the atmosphere of -- in your chapter related

18 to Samac, from paragraph - I will not refer to in particular - from 157

19 until, including -- until the end of your report, which is the

20 paragraph - just a moment - which is the paragraph 188.

21 First of all, I have an impression, after reading your report with

22 paragraph 188 -- could you tell us why you suddenly ceased to -- why you

23 suddenly stopped with your report? Last sentence: "In the view of the

24 army command, the leadership of Bosanski Samac municipality was a model

25 for others in the RS to emulate."

1 Isn't it really a bit strange that the expert is finishing his

2 opinion, his report, only, you know, just suddenly, without any sort of

3 general summary or conclusion or stuff? I mean, just a matter of style.

4 I would like to ask you.

5 A. What's the question?

6 Q. The question is: Are you always in your work give this form of

7 report, without conclusion or short summary or something? Because to me,

8 it seems that it's, you know, by accident it was stopped here, like you

9 didn't have enough time, maybe toner in your computer or some other

10 technical stuff. It was just cut. You know, your line of -- it's my

11 impression. Correct me if I'm wrong.

12 A. Well, I can't share your characterisation of the report. I think

13 your original question was: Do I finish all my work this way?

14 Q. That's right.

15 A. The answer would be no.

16 Q. Good. Speaking about ethnic cleansing and your personal approach

17 to that issue, are you familiar with the cases of ethnic cleansing of

18 Bosnian Serbs in other area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, meaning the area

19 under the control of Bosnian Muslim forces and Bosnian Croat forces?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So you don't know that certain ethnic cleansing and wars against

22 humanity committed against the Serbs occurred in Bosnia and Herzegovina

23 during civil war?

24 A. I'm aware of that, yes.

25 Q. Are you aware how many refugees, Bosnian Serb refugees, came to

1 Samac region in the time of war?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Good. Would it be fair to say, Mr. Donia, that some very

4 high-ranked Muslim officials in fact tried to initiate the form of

5 persecution among their own compatriots, preparing for a false picture,

6 and then trying to establish the atmosphere of persecution of Bosnian

7 Muslims under the direction of Bosnian Muslim authorities in order to

8 provoke a reaction of western community against Bosnian Serbs?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Good. Now, Mr. Donia, I would like --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Luckily, Your Honours, I have translation of this

12 document.

13 Q. I would like to introduce -- I don't know exactly what is the ID

14 number.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Which document is that?

16 MR. PANTELIC: I have a --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Constitution?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I have a -- in fact, this is officially, yes,

19 for the -- I have for all members of this Trial Chamber one document.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the constitution?

21 MR. PANTELIC: No, no, no. This is a document that just now I

22 will speak about, and this is for our learned colleague from the

23 Prosecutor bench.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. First of all, can we have the ID number

25 for --

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. You can --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: -- the Constitution, the one you --

3 MR. PANTELIC: You can see what the number will be, sure.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you number this one, can we have the number

5 for the Constitution, which is --

6 MR. PANTELIC: And this is the last question, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let's straighten up the documents. Can we

8 have the ID number first for the constitution which you referred to

9 earlier.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the ID number for the Constitution

11 shall be ID1/4.

12 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, the -- sorry. Do --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And then this document he is just --

14 MR. PANTELIC: I provided three copies for Madam President and

15 members of Trial Chamber, Your Honours, for the Honourable Judge, and one

16 copy for --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: What is -- can you first describe it? What is the

18 document?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I can describe. Well, this is the instruction

20 of Muslim party, the main headquarters of Muslim party in Sarajevo,

21 sending an instruction to a branch office party in Trebinje, Muslim party

22 in Trebinje, which is the south of Bosnia, number 5293, date January 20th,

23 1993, and references, instructions, concerning the moving out from

24 Trebinje.

25 Q. So Muslim --

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you pose your question, can I hear from the

2 Prosecution? Do they have this document?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: I haven't received it yet.

4 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. I gave a copy for my colleagues.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: When?

6 MR. PANTELIC: I gave three, four. Trial Chamber, one for --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Usher, please, can you assist. Can you get the

8 copy from counsel to give to the Prosecution.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry. That was my impression, that I provided

10 with enough ...

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we give time for the Prosecution to look at it?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: To see whether they've had it before.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, we have all the time in this

15 world.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, it's a document and a translation of

17 that. Apparently it was faxed to a law office. I don't know what the

18 source of it is. I'm not -- I don't believe that the authenticity of it

19 has been established. I wouldn't be prepared to --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe since this is 1.00, we can adjourn until

21 tomorrow morning. In the meantime, the parties can discuss this document

22 and see whether or not there would be any objection from the Prosecution.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just one question.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: No, until the document is verified by the

25 Prosecution so that they can --

1 MR. PANTELIC: I concur with you. Sorry. Pardon me, Your Honour.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't have a question, but I would

3 like -- regarding the evidence, but I'd like to ask the Chamber this:

4 Before I -- well, obviously we're drawing to a close with this witness and

5 we will be ready to call the next witness tomorrow morning. There will be

6 no problem with that, of course. Before we do so, would that be an

7 appropriate time to deal with the outstanding motions? I ask that because

8 it's a natural break in the flow of evidence, and if the Chamber

9 wants -- is amenable to that suggestion, it would be, I think, useful for

10 all counsel to know if you propose to do that. Because I would also like

11 to address -- A, deal with the motions; and B, address the Chamber briefly

12 on the issue, the general issue of documentary evidence and its

13 introduction, before I start the witness. So I respectfully ask the

14 Chamber to indicate its views with respect to the matters I raise.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We will deal with that tomorrow morning, after

16 completing this witness. So we are adjourning, and then the document

17 which the counsel was about to ask questions on can be discussed between

18 the parties. The Prosecution can verify whatever they have to say about

19 it before it is put to the witness tomorrow morning. Yes. And after we

20 are through with the witness, after he is released, then we will deal with

21 the motions. Some motions -- some decisions have already been filed, some

22 others will be given orally. So the first 10, 15 minutes tomorrow, I mean

23 after this witness has gone, before the next witness is called, we'll deal

24 with motions, but the witness must be brought.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I also indicate -- oh, yes, of course we will

1 be ready to go. Do you mean into Court?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. Within the building.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Immediately available. He will be here just

4 outside of Court.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. After this witness is released, we will deal

6 with motions or any other matters that counsel, both sides, wish to

7 address the Court on. After we've finished, then the witness, the next

8 witness, will be brought into Court.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other matters counsel wish to say?

11 We shall adjourn until tomorrow morning at 0930 hours. The Court

12 will rise.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.05 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

15 September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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